The Baillieu Government’s rush to hastily imprison vulnerable youths fails to consider the cost of getting “tough” on crime and the real needs of the community.

Doing time. Again. Photo: News.com.au.

The Age reported this week the building and maintenance of a new prison in Victoria will cost taxpayers more than $1.1 billion over 25 years, and according to a government insider, “isn’t value for money”.

And there were further reports today that there is a strong push from the Justice Department to build a new men’s prison which would become Victoria’s largest. But the debate shouldn’t just be about the nitty-gritty of construction contracts.

The Baillieu Government seems set to turn back the clock and embark on policies that go against all the research that shows the best way to reduce crime rates in the long-term is through early intervention and support.

This can be the difference between keeping a young person out of trouble and steering them towards education and work, and the start of a lifetime of re-offending and institutionalisation.

Victoria’s newest prison comes amid reports that the state’s existing facilities are stretched to breaking point, with overcrowding adding to the risk of violence to inmates and staff.  And this situation is set to worsen due to a likely surge under the Baillieu Government’s tough law and order agenda.

The Baillieu Government is rolling out a string of old-fashioned law and order policies, which give little consideration to contemporary research and thinking. Glib phrases like “zero tolerance” have replaced expertise and balance.

The introduction of bail reform, the abolition of home detention and suspended sentences are all set to worsen an overcrowded prison system and tighten the screws on young people who are crying out for help.

The naivety of a simplistic “more police and more jails” approach demonstrates a will to chase the political gain at the cost of the best policy when it comes to young offenders.

We know that two out of every three young people who have been in custody re-offend while 80 per cent of young people involved in a youth Group Conference program have not reoffended within two years.  We also know that every person kept out of custody for a year saves the tax payer $88,000.

The savings add up when you consider Jesuit Social Services works with around 500 young people each year through programs such as intensive case management for youths on community-based supervision orders and group conferencing.

These programs are a fraction of the cost and they deliver results. They help young people get back on the right track instead of getting trapped in a cycle of reoffending.

Not only are the Baillieu Government’s policies counterproductive, they appear to be motivated by the highly unreliable “shock jock test”’ of community expectation that revels in exaggeration and judgement of young people as ‘the problem’. 

Listening to the loudest voices is not the same as listening to the community.

A recent report released by the Sentencing Advisory Council – the very agency being asked to draft mandatory sentencing conditions by the Government – found that “contrary to common myths and misconceptions about a punitive public, people are open to a policy of increasing the use of alternatives to prison”.

The Government has a responsibility to shape a justice system that reflects community attitude and its expectations about safety and justice. It also has a responsibility to base its policies on facts, not fear and myths.

It is judges, not politicians, who should be setting sentences.  Under current laws, the judiciary has the ability to hand out a harsh sentence if the situation requires – just as it has the ability to take into consideration circumstances of the defendant along with the seriousness of the crime and its impact on the community. 

Such judicial discretion will be undermined with legislation introducing minimum sentencing.

This current combination of politics and “shock jock” driven community polling has the potential to send Victoria backwards. We only have to look north to New South Wales to see that higher levels of detention do not reduce the crime rate.

Despite having about a third of the nation’s population, NSW has half of Australia’s prison population, a prison rate double that of Victoria. According to the Crime and Justice Reform Committee, the crime rates in the two states are the same.

So while NSW looks to Victoria to reduce its crime and imprisonment rates, the Baillieu Government is focused on winding back the Victorian system, filling up our jails and driving up crime rates all because its election platform sounds good to shock jocks.

The losers from this will not just be young and vulnerable Victorians but the general community, who will be dealing with the repercussions of ill-thought policies for years to come.

67 comments

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    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      06:16am | 24/06/11

      Bring back corporal punishment. It’s quick, cheap and may even be effective.

    • d says:

      07:16am | 24/06/11

      100% agree.

    • Kevin says:

      08:18am | 24/06/11

      It didn’t work at the school I went to. although I think some of the teachers got off on it.

    • acotrel says:

      08:39am | 24/06/11

      In minute the conservatives will be bleating about bringing back the death penalty, to deal with their failure to address cultural issues!  The cult of the individual putting No1 first every time, lurks in the background every day of our lives.  The media ‘shock jocks’ surely t have the effect of adding to an aura of widespread depression and anger, particularly amongst the young?  And we should ask ourselves where does this miasma begin and end?  I suggest it is based in negativity, destruction of optimism by people with no vision, intent on a power grab! Gen Y are the ‘now generation’, they are used to getting their own way.  Is it any wonder we have problems of street violence when they find themselves thwarted, in a background of duplicity and authoritarianism?

    • acotrel says:

      09:06am | 24/06/11

      @Kevin
      ‘It didn’t work at the school I went to. although I think some of the teachers got off on it.’
      Ted is obviously pulling a political stunt.  The Libs usually play the law & order card just before elections.  Even Ted must know that ‘violence breeds violence’?  But that doesn’t matter as long as he gets a result?

    • acotrel says:

      12:24pm | 24/06/11

      It must be a real comfort to the conservatives to know that Victoria is now in the hands of a good old ffashioned Liberal government? Theyt’re dragging out the same hoary old chestnuts.  Yesterday it was union bashing, today it’s law and order, next it’ll probably be ‘reds under the beds’.
      I actually had hopes that Ted Baillieu might offer a progressive alternative to what’s gone before.  However it appears he has about the same level of creativity as Tony Abbott, the hollow man! It seems he is intent on producing a decoy to divert his critics’ attention away from the fact that so far he’s achieved NOTHING for Victoria?

    • thatmosis says:

      07:11am | 24/06/11

      Another bleeding heart, if you do the crime you do the time. Most people are sick and tired of the revolving door attitude that has done nothing to curb crime in Australia. Its tim we got tougher on the offenders and made them pay for what they do. If that means building another dozen prisons then so be it.

    • Nigel says:

      08:13am | 24/06/11

      “the Baillieu Government is focused on winding back the Victorian system, filling up our jails and driving up crime rates all because its election platform sounds good to shock jocks.” Actually it’s because its election platform sounded good to VOTERS.  Get over it. 
      The lesson is simple really, if you want to avoid jail, don’t break the law. If Youth Group Conferences are telling young people otherwise then they need to readjust their message.

    • Tom says:

      08:37am | 24/06/11

      “Zero tolerance equals zero progress”. What unadulterated smart-arse drivel in a 3 second grab.

      I love the way these social worker parasites arm themselves with snappy little meaningles slogans. Thinking people are so weary of it. ICB, I call bull-s***.

    • iansand says:

      08:43am | 24/06/11

      Great plan.  Let’s build more prisons, particularly juvenile prisons.  They are a great facility for networking and learning new techniques.  Unfortunately the networks and techniques tend to be antisocial.

    • acotrel says:

      09:02am | 24/06/11

      @Nigel We didn’t have these problems when everyone attended sunday school.  We need MORE RELIGION!

    • acotrel says:

      09:52am | 24/06/11

      @Tom Yeah, Give ‘em a good kicking!

    • S.L says:

      07:29am | 24/06/11

      Oh Julie I suggest you get your head out of a book, open the door of your ivory tower, walk outside and smell the roses. Then if you’re game enough go for a walk down the street and experience the real world.

    • Kevin says:

      08:16am | 24/06/11

      @S.L
      Judging from her CV, I suspect she has experienced much more of the “real world” than you.
      Reading the tabloids and listening to Alan Jones doesn’t put you in touch with the “real world”.

    • LeonT says:

      08:40am | 24/06/11

      I know, how dare someone consult the research into the best methods of dealing with things when they can walk outside and get a sample size of 1.

    • S.L says:

      09:03am | 24/06/11

      Kevin I’ve driven cabs for 23 years. Who cares what her CV is. I stand by my comment.
      I’m not old enough to worship Jonesy.

    • Gregg says:

      07:57am | 24/06/11

      I think by the look of the earlier posts you may have trouble convincing people and then with ” Julie Edwards is CEO of Jesuit Social Services. ” you may have even more trouble convincing people you do not have a vested interest.

      There is no doubt room for preventative measures as well as incarceration
      for even with benefits claimed for conferencing etc., a stable crime rate will still see numbers rise as population does and call it shock jock or whatever, when it gets reported that perpetrators of violent crime get not much more than a slap on the wrist, that gives little comfort to the public and even less I suspect to most victims.

      And then there are all the scam merchants about too willing to rip money off usually older vulnerable people and a sentence behind bars in addition to fines/reparation needing to be paid will do no harm to them either.

    • TChong says:

      08:46am | 24/06/11

      Gregg
      What “vested interest” is there for the CEO of the Jesuit Social Services ?

    • Retired Soldier says:

      10:55am | 24/06/11

      Don’t bother with new or bigger prisons, just bring back the “big stick” approach and be prepared to use it on about 90% of today’s youth. Bring them into line with force and they will soon get sick of getting what is long overdue. Their behaviour will improve and they might even turn out to be decent people. This will only happen if we use the “big stick” on the do gooders, lawyers and judiciary as well. Punish the parents and bloody wanna be school teachers while we are at it. Do all this and you will see a change for the better. Tough love for the kids and bloody real punishment for those who allow them to do as they wish. If you don’t like these ideas then let Generation Y continue as they are and eventually they will destroy them selves. This would likely be a better solution and would cost a lot less. In the end who really cares what happens to them.

    • hot tub political machine says:

      11:20am | 24/06/11

      Retired soldier,

      Have a chat to a copper. They will tell you just how badly the big stick approach goes for society. It turns bad offenders into societal nightmares.

    • Fiddler says:

      09:16am | 25/06/11

      Hot tub. I am one. I can tell you that (in NSW anyway) people get quite a few bites at the cherry before they go to gaol. Juveniles who go inside are normally ensconsed in many diversionary programs before they make it to juvenile facilities. It is their pig-headedness and refusal to go along with these programs that has them inside (ie abusing/assaulting staff, refusing to go to school, committing further offences) The lefty lie about these people is that they need assistance. News flash, it already exists, they end up there because they refuse to go along with it. The big stick doesn’t work simply because it isn’t big enough. Run the gaols like they do in Arapoe (Arizona I think it is) and see how hard they will try not to go back in. Right now very few offenders get a long enough or difficult enough stretch to hate going back inside.
      As for vested interests, these support programs get a great deal of funding from the government and she is essentially arguing for a greater role. That is a vested interest. In NSW most people are in gaol for disqualified driving and domestic violence offences anyway.

    • AdamC says:

      08:40am | 24/06/11

      This piece is an artifice constructed on a false premise. Despite Julie’s bleatings, there has been no wholesale abandonment of principles of diversionary corrections in Victoria. Building a better equipped prison for the most dangerous offenders and requiring that the most egregiously violent juvenile offenders see the inside of a youth facility are not incompatible with a general - and genuine - commiitment to keep offenders out of jail where possible.

      This sort of hysterical squealing by criminal justice insiders and their hangers on whenever there is the slightest hint of changes to sentencing laws does not make said insiders look like the experts they claim to be. Rather, it makes them look like charlatans trying to feather their own nest. And why would any government choose to listen to charlatans?

    • LeonT says:

      09:25am | 24/06/11

      How do you respond to this statement of hers?

      “It is judges, not politicians, who should be setting sentences.”

    • AdamC says:

      10:00am | 24/06/11

      I agree with it, LeonT. But I would add that it is quite legitimate for the parliament to lay down sentencing parameters. We already have maximum sentences in Victoria. How is that different to setting minima.

      In any event, were the situation reversed, I wonder if Julie would be sticking to her guns on judicial discretion were our judges handing out manifestly excessive sentences without restriction.

    • LeonT says:

      10:46am | 24/06/11

      The difference is how frequently these maxima and minima are binding. Particularly bad crimes usually have more than one charge associated with them and for these, there is the option of consecutive terms. So the maximum for one charge isn’t a binding thing in practice.

      The proposed minimum terms are far more binding and therefore reduce the ability for the courts to serve their function.

      Part of the judge’s job is to examine the evidence and decide on an appropriate sentence. If judges are not doing their jobs correctly, for example consistently being too harsh or too lenient, then they should be replaced.

      However, given that the judges has little problem with the current sentencing regime and it is (uninformed) community outrage driving these proposals, a reasonable person must conclude that, for the most part, the judges are doing their jobs well and their discretion is being used wisely.

    • AdamC says:

      11:12am | 24/06/11

      Leon T, your first two paragraphs are just intellectual mischief. Maximum sentences constrain judicial discretion. Your assertions about the frequency or otherwise of their application concede my fundamental point while still being argumentative.

      Your third paragraph is not relevant to the issues at hand. Should rogue judges be disciplined? Yes. Should the failure of judges as a class to reflect appropriate sentencing norms be addressed by sacking them all? Of course not. It should be addressed, as is proposed, by setting minimum sentences.

      Your third paragraph is a nonsense. I am not even sure I understand what you are arguing. Is it that, because judges are happy with their own sentencing, these sentences must be appropriate? If so, that is absurd. Judges are people like everyone else, not infallable divinities!

    • LeonT says:

      12:04pm | 24/06/11

      You said: “We already have maximum sentences in Victoria. How is that different to setting minima. ” My answer was basically ‘setting binding constraints is different to setting non-binding constraint’. My apologies if you confuse simple reality for intellectial twaddle.

      You said: “...were our judges handing out manifestly excessive sentences without restriction.” which I took to mean rogue judges.

      My last paragraph is about leaving decision making to experts (judges aren’t just like everyone else; they’re experts) rather than popular opinion/hysteria. Of course an individual judge can do things wrong, but the group of all judges is far less likely to.

    • AdamC says:

      12:44pm | 24/06/11

      Leon T, your explanation as to why you consider maximum sentences less ‘binding’ than minimum sentences is not credible. Clearly, there would be many instances in which maximum sentences would constrain judicial discretion in sentencing.

      You seem to be arguing against yourself, not debating the issue at hand: minimum sentences for the most violent juvenile offenders. Nobody except your own straw man is asserting that judges are not experts. As I stated, expertise and infallibility are not the same thing.  And, again, nobody is contending that sentencing be placed in the hands of ‘popular opinion/hysteria’.

    • TheDishpan says:

      04:08pm | 24/06/11

      AdamC

      You’re assuming that maximum and minimum sentences are opposite sites of the same coin. They’re not. Maximum sentences protect offenders (citizens) from being detained indefinitely.

      Mandatory minimum sentences serve no such purpose. In fact, they serve no useful purpose in our legal tradition whatsoever.

      Almost invariably there are unintended consequences, such as locking up people with mental illnesses, or over punishing people whose crimes were subject to extenuating circumstances like psycological violence or sexual abuse.

      An extreme example from our American cousins: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/whenkidsgetlife/

      Unless there is some suggestion that the current system is not working, and I mean a suggestion that can be demonstrated with data and not just the say so of the police and popularist “tough on crime” advocates, there’s just no need for mandatory minimums.

    • AdamC says:

      04:40pm | 24/06/11

      “Maximum sentences protect offenders (citizens) from being detained indefinitely.”

      They do no such thing. Are you thinking of habeas corpus or something? This statement is outlandish. Do you mean that it prevents judges from handing down indefinite terms of inprisonment?

      “Unless there is some suggestion that the current system is not working, and I mean a suggestion that can be demonstrated with data and not just the say so of the police and popularist “tough on crime” advocates, there’s just no need for mandatory minimums.”

      The Victorian government is not claiming that the ‘current system isn’t working’, they are proposing to implement minimum sentencing in very specific circumstances. And I don’t believe one can assess criminal justice outcomes merely based on statistics. Ethics and values play a role too. Many would argue that the punishment of the most violent offenders is a moral imperative.

    • TheDishpan says:

      11:39pm | 24/06/11

      AdamC

      If maximum sentences are not there to put limits on the State then just what is their purpose? I’m not confused, I just understand the issue.

      One can only assess outcomes based on data. That’s the whole point of evidence based policy. You do what works and thereby avoid doing harm.

      It’s interesting that you raise the (very correct) point that the proposal is targeted at some very specific violent crimes. Unfortunately, violent crime is often complex, and that’s not a bleeding heart “mummy didn’t breast feed them” observation. It’s just the cold reality. There are often issues of provocation, the effect of drugs, physical and psychological abuse, and mental illness. These issues are particularly acute when we speak of juvenile crime, and this is to say nothing of the whole issue of juvenile culpability (as distinct from adult culpability).

      Mandatory minimum sentences limit the specificity of a punishment. They simplify by doing away with detail, and ignoring the opportunities for rehabilitation, changing circumstances, or the likelihood of re-offending. We are no better off, and no safer with minimum sentences.

      You could argue that mandatory minimum sentences simply “raise the bar” of punishment: society wants to see the most violent crimes punished more severely and remove any doubt that the worst offenders will serve time in gaol. The elected Government has the ability to impose minimum sentences, and the Herald Sun says we all want it, so be it.

      In response I’d say that the worst offenders already get custodial sentences and that mandatory minimum sentences punish the wrong people. They punish the people who are the least likely to reoffend, those whose crimes are at the lower end of the scale for the offences of which they have been convicted, and those whose crimes have extenuating circumstances: for example, the bullied kid who in a fit of rage viciously stabs his bully.

      For sure, crime should not go unpunished. But in a supposedly enlightened world ruled reason (with a good smattering of morality and ethics), with a system that takes the time to consider each sentence individually and weigh up the options for both punishment and rehabilitation, why in such a system would we use a blunt instrument like a mandatory minimum sentence?

      There are three rationales that are often trotted out for punishment: incapacitation, deterrence, and retribution. Sure mandatory minimum sentences incapacitate offenders, but you only need to incapacitate someone for as long as they are likely to reoffend. Deterring violent juvenile crime is harder because juveniles are imperfect decision makers often they consider only the immediate cost and the immediate benefits, and don’t consider consequences. Retribution in the case of juveniles is hard because often juveniles do not adequately perceive the moral cost of their actions, so retribution isn’t terribly well served by mandatory minimum sentences.

      What is served mandatory minimum sentences is vengeance, and a lot of people find the idea of vengeance very alluring. But let’s not confuse a desire for vengeance (which, let’s face it, is pretty irrational and insatiable) with criminal justice outcomes, law and order.

      Now, I’m not saying that there’s no place for juvenile incarceration, just that its appropriateness should be determined case-by-case by Judges who have all the facts, supported by systems that can provide the options that are needed to ensure that juveniles don’t reoffend and can contribute to society in the future.

      Unless you can show that the current system is broken, there’s no reasonable rationale to change or challenge the status quo.

    • Max Redlands says:

      09:22am | 24/06/11

      Minimium sentences are the tools of tyrants.

      The independence and the discretions available to the judiciary are cornerstones of a free society. That there will be decisions some see as light is the price we pay for these safegaurds. (c.f. presumption of innocence/reasonable doubt - it is better 10 guilty go free rather than 1 innocent be punished).

      You have to doubt the wisdom of institutionaizing young offenders but what other deterant is available? This is the crux of the problem balancing the different aims of criminal sentencing in particular personal and general deterrance as against rehabilitation.

      Of course this all depends on the particular offender and the circumstances of the offence. Which, circuitously, brings us back to the issue of judical discretion in sentencing.

      It seems clear institutionlaization is one of the best ways to breed recidivists.

      There are No easy answers to any of this as far as I can see. However, with regards to young offenders at least, sentences of community service that involve meaningful service that require work of a suitably arduous nature that are strictly enforced is one option that would both benefit the community and provide a deterant to the offender as well as encouraging rehabilitation by having the offender make (an albeit forced) contribution to society.

      But my main point is that, for reasons of fundamental justice, minimum sentences are not the way to go.

    • Freeman says:

      09:37am | 24/06/11

      Pfft,

      Give it up. The softly softly approach is no deterent. Perps laugh at the good behaviour bonds and suspended sentences they receive while the victims of their crimes are left without justice. people learn lessons in different ways
      But first and foremost everyone should learn that their are CONSEQUENCES for their actions.

      Your message is that young perpetrators should be kept out of jail at all cost. You want to believe that there is good in everyone, and perhaps there is but I don’t beleive bleeding hearts like you truly understand the mentality of such thugs if you think you can change someone who is accustom to getting their way through violence and crime by simply educating them of the error of their ways.

      “We know that two out of every three young people who have been in custody re-offend while 80 per cent of young people involved in a youth Group Conference program have not reoffended within two year”

      Got two questions regarding this statement. 1) why cherry pick stats and what happens after two years? 2) What makes these young people join a youth group, is it voluntary? perhaps offenders who join youth goups are a small percentage of offenders who would not re-offend anyway.

    • LeonT says:

      09:54am | 24/06/11

      Why consult evidence when you can just deduce outcomes from what ‘message’ you are sending. You are not describing justice, but vengeance.

      Young people should be kept out of jail because it reduces the chance that they will do something that lands them back in jail once they get out. Criminals learn how to commit crime more effectively in jail.

      ‘Tough On Crime’ may make you feel safe, but it does not make you safe, as crime statistics show. I prefer my government make me safer rather than simply appear to do so. It would seem that you do not.

    • Freeman says:

      10:40am | 24/06/11

      vengeance?

      Explain, Leon, when a perpetrator escapes jail for their crime (a crime that has a victim), issued with a good behaviour bond, only to re-offend and have a second victim, how has justice been served to either victim?

      ‘Soft On Crime’ may make you feel safe, but it does not make you safe, as crime statistics show, offenders re-offend while on good behaviour bonds or not, Zero tolerance has proved to be effective elsewhere in the world, soft approaches not so much.

      crime rates are higher in recent decades when compared to decades when a more conservative approach to discipline was employed.

    • iansand says:

      03:46pm | 24/06/11

      Freeman - I couldn’t be bothered getting the exact statistics, but something like 70% of kids before childrens’ court never come back, and something like 80% either never come back or come back only once.

      The “soft on crime” regime seems to be quite effective.

    • hot tub political machine says:

      04:23pm | 24/06/11

      @ Freeman.

      Actually crime rates are if anything dropping, perception of crime and fear of crime is on the increase…..hmmm, media got anything to do with that I wonder?

      http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current series/tandi/381-400/tandi396.aspx

    • Criminologist says:

      04:34pm | 24/06/11

      @hot tub political machine

      I wouldn’t say that crime is dropping.  There is increasing evidence that our governments are concealing it better than they used.

    • Kassandra says:

      04:41pm | 24/06/11

      Offenders are not all the same and any rational justice system would focus more on the offender not just the crime. Our system is not rational. Sentencing is based on the crime not the criminal.

      Something like 70% of all crimes, including violent crimes, are committed by less than 10% of the offender population. Typically this group starts offending in childhood and one of the best indicators of future criminality is age at first arrest. This group can be identified with reasonable accuracy and if you locked them all up for a long time you would prevent 70% of all crime, especially violent crime, in the community at a single stroke.

      By contrast, over 75% of young male offenders, the overwhelming majority, are once or twice only offenders who pose little long-term risk to the community. They should be kept out of gaol wherever possible.

    • hot tub political machine says:

      04:51pm | 24/06/11

      Interesting criminologist, it may be a bit personal but I’ll try anyway. Are you actually employed as a criminologist and if so, are you going to give us some juicy beans on how its being covered up? Here’s hoping your “inside”

    • Tator says:

      07:16pm | 24/06/11

      As a 22 year veteran with SAPOL, I have seen several Juvenile justice systems.  There is a common theory that around 80% of all first time offenders never reoffend and most systems cater for that with a system of cautions and conferences for first time offenders.  The problem begins with the recidivist offenders who end up in court repeatedly.  In SA the courts and the legislation have not developed in a manner which adequately protects the community from recidivism by a small portion of the community. 
      From reading hundreds of sentencing comments from District and Supreme Court Justices, it is believed by most in the Judiciary that the majority of “rehabilitation” occurs when an offender is released on parole. 
      Statistics from Correctional services released this week in SA reports that 40% of all parolees reoffend whilst on parole, a substantial number which indicates that the system is not working as it is supposed to. 
      So what to do about it, there are several options;
      First -  do nothing, not really an option as you still have recidivist offenders running around committing offences and disrupting society and making society unsafe.
      2, Mandatory Sentencing - an obvious example is the “Three Strikes” legislation in some states of the USA.  Advantages, offenders who are convicted of three seperate felonies spend the rest of their life in prison.  Thus society is safer without them being part of it.
      Disadvantages - costly due to higher inmate populations, also has the side effect of more serious crimes being committed as felons on their third strike go bugger it, I might as well go the whole hog as if I get caught, it’s life anyway.
      My opinion, a hybrid system.  Mandatory sentencing for recidivist offenders with the mandatory part being the head sentence and leave the non-parole period purely up to the discretion of the presiding judiciary. 
      We have it here in SA for murder already and that is for all murders, not just first offences, so why not expand it to lesser offences for recidivist offenders. 
      What also has to be realised here is that in the criminal justice system, most people go through various minor penalties prior to the beak even considering gaol ie fines/good behaviour bonds/community service etc and generally the first custodial sentence is a suspended one unless the offence is of a genuinely serious nature ie a type of homicide /rape etc.  So imposing this mandatory head sentence is not going to catch any first offenders, unless it is of course, murder.  It is just something to think about.

    • Freeman says:

      07:23pm | 24/06/11

      Iansand,
      If you couldn’t be bothered to find the exact figures it’s probably because they’re bogus or as selective as the ones quoted by the author. Your statement alone would prove nothing even if it were true, as it only takes into consideration perps before the childrens court. Those kids would likely offend again as adults. it also fail to recognise that reported crimes are often not solved by police, so those kids could be re-offending without being caught (or the cops chucking the report into the too hard basket like so often happens these days)

      Hot Tub, Just what is the meaning of posting a link that gives no crime figures?? it talks about PERCEPTIONS of crime rates and is not even in relation to juvenile crime.

      Kassandra, I’m not sure where your figures come from but you make good reasonable points.

    • iansand says:

      09:44am | 25/06/11

      Freeman - You will find them on the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics site, if you care to look.  I think it is a more reliable source than rabble rousing shock jocks.

    • Criminologist says:

      09:48am | 24/06/11

      ‘There is somewhat of a misconception among many people that if you’re rehabilitated early, you’re entitled to be set free. But there are two other reasons why we incarcerate people, and that’s deterrence, setting an example, thereby deterring other prospective killers or criminals from violating the law; and retribution - punishment.’ (Vincent Bugliosi)

    • Septimus says:

      09:51am | 24/06/11

      I think someone’s government funding is in jeopardy.

    • Trevor says:

      10:16am | 24/06/11

      Legalise and regulate the recreational drug market. Then there would be plenty of extra tax money. The extra prisons wouldn’t even need to be built without people being locked up for non-violent and victimless crimes.

    • Govt@FauxCitizen says:

      09:38pm | 24/06/11

      @ Trevor, Why didin’t I think of that, better still,  we give the drugs free, that way my car won’t get broken into for GPS,camera,CD’s and ashtray gold coins ever again. Anyway the money we save from not building jails can go to mental health facilities specialising in schizophrenia and paranoia. Pure Fucken Genius.

    • NigelH says:

      10:18am | 24/06/11

      Julie, the ignorant blame everyone but themselves, so if you Do the crime - do the time.
      In my opinion we are way too soft on people and there should be many more jails and many more judges willing to send the law breakers to them. To have someone take something from you, be it an item, money, break something or a deprivation of your libity, should be punished with time. I also believe we are too soft on those that are put in jail. I for one think that your bleeding heart ways are wrong. And I am putting it forward!

    • Bitten says:

      11:15am | 24/06/11

      Yet another social-worker who’s spent too much time in the company of criminals and consequently thinks crime is not that big a deal really, surely everyone slips up, we should just be gentle with these poor youngsters crying out for help. Unsurprisingly, no acknowledgement of the impact of her charges’ actions on the victims of their criminal activities, a typical arrogant dismissal of crime victims as irrelevant, nothing more than an irritating distraction from the ‘true’ victim according to such people - the criminal.

    • LeonT says:

      01:42pm | 24/06/11

      “We need to stop these little feral’s (sic) from becoming life-long career criminals”

      And this is exactly why keeping them out of jail and into alternate plans is such a good idea. Jails are the number one recruitment ground for ‘career criminals’. What Julie is saying is that judicial discretion serves the community better in the short term (costs) as well as the long term (fewer career criminals).

      “With the political correctness move and molly-coddling of children - THESE ARE THE RESULTS.”

      Citation needed.

      You are spriuking a policy that has been proven not to work. All of those links you posted are deserve action, but the correct action rather than a kneejerk reaction.

    • John says:

      12:49pm | 24/06/11

      “Criminals are victims of an oppressive society”

      Most likely the work of a marxist.

    • stephen says:

      04:22pm | 25/06/11

      All the criminals I know want money - lots of it - and they don’t want to work for it.
      This, I maintain, is one of the tenents of Capitalism : that to exert the least amount of labour for the greatest monetary reward, should duly receive the Adam Smith medal.
      Marxists don’t think about reward ; they just don’t want to go hungry, and they don’t want ‘adam smiths’ dictating social policy for those you think and feel other-wise.

    • stephen says:

      06:41pm | 25/06/11

      And by the way, things will change, and America, (I’ll give her, maybe, 12 to 15 years) will lead the way.
      And us, too.

    • ausspud says:

      01:35pm | 24/06/11

      What about military school, oh wait then it will be full of muslims,asians & pacific islanders.

    • NigelH says:

      01:41pm | 24/06/11

      Julie, where are the answers to the comments?????

    • TheRealDave says:

      03:13pm | 24/06/11

      I’m sick to death of hearing about ‘vulnerable youth’ and their virtual consequence free lifestyles

      How about we spend more than 3 seconds thinking about their ‘vulnerable victims’ for a change??

    • LeonT says:

      03:47pm | 24/06/11

      You mean like having policy so the criminals are less likely to reoffend?

    • sam says:

      03:30pm | 24/06/11

      do the crime do the time thats all they have to stick to

    • stephen says:

      08:09pm | 24/06/11

      You can change anybody.
      This is our redemption, but, unfortunately, (especially for the ‘ignorant’ Germans in WW2) it can be our furnace.
      Youth need a second chance, for the simple reason that those young who have committed crimes, have not had a first one.
      Perhaps those in the underbelly shows should do their time.
      I know kids who’ve been bad, (and i ain’t no saint either) and they need re-educating.
      Easy.
      (And for the benefit of boggins and Unionists, it’s called ‘Compensation’.)

    • Govt @FauxCitizen says:

      09:21pm | 24/06/11

      @sam,,,And pay your way,,,,,,,, The financial burden of the justice system must be the responsibility of the handful who choose stupidity, crime and evil. USER PAYS
      Not the responsibility of the hardworking, honest and, decent who wouldn’t know what a court room or jail looked like.

    • stephen says:

      07:54pm | 24/06/11

      That 80% apparently re-offend after their first jail-term is not a good argument for the deletion of jail for serious first offenders, for, such a figure may eventually be the norm, e.g. this figure may only be average with alleviating principles of rehabilitation, special care and mentorship.
      Rather, detention for , say, under 25’s, should specifically be under the auspices of the Education Department, (and don’t laugh… I’ve seen first hand what the norm is in schools) and these girls and gals should be given another chance through re-learning.
      Punishment ? Well, maybe. I hated school.
      But these kids, no matter what they’ve done, need a better chance to grow up and mature, marry, and have families.
      This is the cost that the general community should bear, (even at the expense at a fancy new asylum detention centre.)

    • Govt@FauxCitizen says:

      09:07pm | 24/06/11

      MAKE CRIME PAY, charge for the courts real costs, ballif, judges clerks, police prosecutors, along with police attendance and investigation costs, Victims out of pocket expenses, damages, loss of income,,,You know the real costs out of control arseholes cause. IE: you screw up and it costs $35,000.oo to drag through the system,  ( wich now absorbs the cost through law abiding taxpayers pockets) then you pay that on top of whatever your sentence or penalty is, along with what the victims personal losses are.
      A bit like user pays really, after all the justice system must be about the only free service left in this country apart from Centerlink.

    • mick says:

      10:34pm | 24/06/11

      People generally, let aone youth, have lost respect for the laws of the land and the lawmakers who enforce them.  Whilst locking people up is expensive and may not cure the problem it is also just as bad sending the message that these thugs and hooligans are free to ply their trade.
      I don’t have an answer as this is a difficult one to solve.  What is clear is that doing nothing is not an option.  Any solution needs to start with derelict parents who are often at the heart of wayward behaviour.  It is not for teachers or society to feel guilt for what has occurred due to poor parenting.
      A bit od love goes a long way and the loss of Christian values has started this avalanche.  I wish I had the answer as to how to stop it.  But ignoring the problem is not the way.  Perhaps starting to teach kids that prison will happen and then carry through may be the way.  We have to try something and tough love may be the way forward in the absence of a real solution, not a do gooder feel good solution which has never worked and will not work.

    • graham says:

      10:02am | 25/06/11

      The young offenders should be ‘sentenced’ to a period of poorly paid work in the community where they are required to work every day and to carry out their job requirements satisfactorily or be sent to prison. Not Community Service, that’s a badly framed and badly serviced program which serves no purpose. It also prevents, by its very structure, any person from gaining permanent employment due to staggered availability.
      Judges are given maximum ceilings but not minimums, (generally), so that they can differentiate between serious, more serious, and extremely serious versions of the same offence. Examples of this are “life without parole”, “life with a minimum that must be served”, or variations of special circumstances. We should not put case by case decisions in the hands of the politicians, and that would happen with fixed legislation.
      The death penalty? So that a person responsible for the death of another with proven intent can then kill all witnesses harmful to his cause without fear of additional punishment. Someone said that an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. Sounds right.

    • Harquebus says:

      10:48am | 25/06/11

      Censorship at ThePunch makes all these comments irrelevant.

 

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