Psychotic. Mongoose. Saboteur. Liar. Traitor. Dysfunctional. Egotistical.

Childless.

Some people are born for parenting. Others, not so much. Pic: AP

In week of whirring insults, the claim that ex-PM ex-FM Kevin Rudd called Prime Minister Julia Gillard a “childless, atheist, ex-Communist” is a standout.

Mr Rudd’s office dismissed the story that he badmouthed Ms Gillard at an Adelaide pub a year ago as “lies”.  Maybe the witnesses were all mistaken. Maybe he said “guileless, earnest, optimist’. These things can happen in noisy bars.

But the ‘childless’ tag has been used before and will be used again. And it’s a simple fact. So why does it pack such a venomous punch?

Those who use it generally argue that it shows the Prime Minister can’t understand her constituency, as though giving birth somehow magically produces an umbilical cord that connects a woman to the whole community.

Former Labor leader and recurrent loudmouth Mark Latham said:

Anyone who chooses a life without children, as Gillard has, cannot have much love in them.

He returned to the controversial theme while spruiking The Latham Diaries, describing her as ‘wooden’ and linking it to her lack of offspring.

Liberal Senator Bill Heffernan famously said Ms Gillard was not fit to lead because she is “deliberately barren” so she couldn’t understand the voters. At the time, Mr Rudd hit back at him, saying:

This sort of 1950s politics has no place in 21st century Australia, it has no place in Australian modern politics and these sort of remarks, frankly, I just find to be positively outlandish.

Onya, Mr Rudd.

Liberal frontbencher George Brandis said Ms Gillard wouldn’t understand how parents felt about their children’s virginity – which obviously would have a huge impact on developing policy across a broad range of portfolios.

Other childless Australian Prime Ministers – there have been four before including Ben Chifley, whom Mr Abbott quoted approvingly yesterday - don’t seem to have copped the same criticism.

That’s because the sting in the tail of the ‘childless’ jibe is not really about empathy.

If a politician had to experience something first hand before they could work in the area, we really would see a paralysed administration. There’d be a sudden demand for candidates who are both male and female, Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal, soldiers and pacifists, old and young, fishers and non-fishers all at the same time.

The real slime they’re trying to spread, of course, is that choosing not to have a child is a dereliction of woman’s sacred duty. That a woman without children is not just incomplete but unnatural.

It goes hand in hand with the glorification of the (traditional) family, the worship of parenthood that goes beyond admiration.

Politicians in electioneering mode love to venerate the family. Appealing to mums and dads is safe ground, and stereotypes are easy soundbites. That means that the opposite – denigrating those who do not fit the mould – has its own currency.

But it’s a black market because it’s appealing to people’s baser side. The idea that people without children are somehow less human has no logic – it just appeals to people’s distrust of those who are different.

These men wouldn’t sling this ‘childless’ arrow unless it had force. And it does.

Declaring yourself happily childless can inspire a similar venom to being an atheist – there are people who presume somehow that the absence is a vindictive rejection. As though a personal choice by its nature heaps scorn on all those who take the other path and choose kids, or God.

Some people are so affronted by the childless woman, so threatened by a fruitless womb that they shuffle off any pretensions to politeness in their quest to convince that woman that life’s true meaning can only be found in progeny.

It must make painful listening for those who want to have children, but cannot.

Up to one in five women will never have a child.

It’s no longer so widely accepted that being a mum is every woman’s most important role. A friend recently said something along the lines of ‘you’d be good at it and you’d love it’ – and it was such a refreshing change from years of ‘your life must be empty, fix it’.

It was almost enough to make me chuck out the pill packet. Almost.

The pernickety pushy questions and judgements usually come from pesky people with old ideas. And Rudd was right - they belong back in the 1950s.

Twitter: @ToryShepherd

471 comments

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    • Kerryn says:

      05:08am | 28/02/12

      I’d like to be a Mum, but honestly given my genetic makeup (bad knees, dodgy heart, aspergers syndrome, just generally not the best looking) I really don’t think it’s a good idea.  Unless I found a near-perfect bloke on the genetic level that could counteract the bad knees and the dodgy ticker (not the aspergers though, that’s fun).

      Plus I plan to remain single for the rest of my life (nothing personal against men or women, I just don’t think I make a good girlfriend) so I’ll probably never get the chance anyway.

    • Emma says:

      06:06am | 28/02/12

      I am pretty sure that having a wonderful loving childhood outweighs some physical flaws.

    • Kelly says:

      07:52am | 28/02/12

      No Emma, I have to agree with Kerryn on this one. I suffer from extremely severe psoriasis and have a few other genetic issues that have made me the subject of much bullying. I was raised in an incredibly loving home - I otherwise had a good childhood - but I choose to remain childless as I never want to put another human through what I physically have to deal with every single day. Not everyone has to be a parent to be a complete person.

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      08:03am | 28/02/12

      Honest, but a bit rough on yourself there.

    • Donna says:

      08:09am | 28/02/12

      I’m with you, Kerryn.  People need to be more self aware and make actual choices.  I too feel that my gene pool needs chlorine.  This, together with other (very) well considered reasons, has led me to the decision not to breed.  My life is full.  I am happily married and I contribute greatly to the community and society financially, through ethical and purposeful employment choices, and by undertaking regular volunteer work.  I’m comfortable with my choice…arguably even more so than several of my friends and acquaintances who have chosen to breed.

    • Emma says:

      08:21am | 28/02/12

      Kelly

      Does that mean you would have preferred if your parents had chosen not to have you?

    • Chris L says:

      08:34am | 28/02/12

      @Emma - that was a loaded and pointless question.

    • Elphaba says:

      08:42am | 28/02/12

      I think you were a bit rough on yourself too, Kerryn.  However, go candor! smile

      I think the parents that level disbelieving clucks at childless people are simply trying to justify their own life choices.  It has little to do with the childless person, and more to do with the parent attempting to assert that the grass is definitely greener on their side.  So much has to be given up to have children, the idea that someone willingly chooses a life where they put themselves first must baffle some parents.  They want to believe their sacrifices will be worth something.  What they have to remember is that an individual’s experiences have very little value to anyone else, except the individual.  A person parenting a child is no more or less extraordinary than a person who chooses singledom - it’s just different strokes.

    • Kika says:

      08:46am | 28/02/12

      I’m with Kerryn and Emma.

      If you were never born, then you would never know. Ignorance is bliss, isn’t it?

      I think it’s absolutely selfish some people go ahead to have children with full knowledge that they carry a bag of unfortunate genetics. We don’t allow dogs to breed if they are hit with the wrong end of the genetic stick. So why are humans automatically exempt from being shown the same compassion?

    • Emma says:

      08:47am | 28/02/12

      Chris L

      It was not my intention to be rude at all. I just think you dont have to be a perfect specimen in order to be a parent. I understand the these people have made a hard decision to sacrifice their wish of a family, but not being attractive shouldnt be a reason.

    • RED says:

      09:09am | 28/02/12

      @Chris
      Bullshit, I wondered the exact same thing.

    • Ali says:

      09:20am | 28/02/12

      Elphaba, I couldn’t disagree with you more. This is more complicated than you like red, I like blue. It’s about the very fabric of our civilization and how our choices affect the whole community. The whole point of life is to keep on going, so it’s only logical that people without kids (by choice) are viewed as oddities. Furthermore, when you are old and still needing someone to pay your medicare bills and your public services, that falls to the next generation, so having kids is essenitally helping society. As for me, having to give up some of my easy life for a child has only given me more love in my life, more patience and made me appreciate life in ways that (most) of my childess friends never have.  I used to think my awesome career was so important - ptah! - it pales in comparison to my little one and watching her achievements. Many of my friends can’t even have kids and it is very upsetting for them to see those who can have them not doing so simply because they don’t want to give up some lame guicci lifestyle. Even with all the hard work, having my child is the best thing I’ve ever done and I wouldn’t change a thing.

    • gobsmack says:

      09:23am | 28/02/12

      @Elphaba
      “A person parenting a child is no more or less extraordinary than a person who chooses singledom - it’s just different strokes.”
      Agree totally.

    • Arthur says:

      09:31am | 28/02/12

      Don’t be so hard on yourself Kerryn. You describe all the women I’ve been involved with….. “I just don’t think I make a good girlfriend”.

    • Elphaba says:

      09:34am | 28/02/12

      Ali, looks like we can agree to disagree. 

      The only person I’m (potentially) hurting by not having children, is myself.

      The only person I’m (definitely) hurting by having a child I don’t want, is the child.

      It actually IS that easy.

      Have a great day.

    • Dex says:

      09:47am | 28/02/12

      Of course Donna, we can’t possibly talk about our childless choices without slipping in a comment about how, gosh, who knew, I might be even happier than those I know who do have kids! I don’t have a problem with people choosing to have children or be childless (I don’t have any of the little darlings myself) but at least people who do choose children have seen it from both sides of the fence. You haven’t, so forgoing the worldly comments and assumptions would make people like you look less ‘heartless’ (not that I think you are) to the fanatics who think that any person who does not have a child is some sort of miscreant.

    • Kika says:

      09:51am | 28/02/12

      @Elphaba - Brilliant.

      “The only person I’m (potentially) hurting by not having children, is myself. The only person I’m (definitely) hurting by having a child I don’t want, is the child”

      I agree with you about the grass is greener position. For example the girl downstairs to us has a little boy. He’s about 4. I don’t know her whole life story but she’s very young. When she first moved in she used to scream at him, a lot. I really felt sorry for the little thing. No man around. Lots of boyfriends that come and go. Lately she’s had someone move in with her and most nights they are up until 9-10pm drinking and partying. Last night I heard her struggling to get him to bed - at 9pm. Now I am not a parent, but I would assume a 9pm bed time is rather late for a little boy not even in school yet. Whether she’s making up for her lost time and lost youth, I don’t know.

      But no one is automatically a better person just because you have a child. Being a mother doesn’t automatically mean you are a good one. And having a child doesn’t mean you have a higher moral position than anyone else in life.

    • Rose says:

      10:00am | 28/02/12

      Ali, I could be wrong but I’m very sure that Kerryn and Kelly’s decision not to have kids has absolutely nothing to do with, and will have no impact on,the couples who can’t have them. If these two women decided to have kids would it miraculously make the others feel better, no!
      I feel for people who cannot have kids that they want but the rest of us need to live our lives the way we see fit and not have to pretend to have the same goals and ideals as those who have had the choice taken from them. Unfortunately for those people there is no real option other than to try and make their lives as fulfilled and happy as they can, despite the rough hand dealt to them. Obviously there are options that can be explored, IVF, sperm/egg donors, adoption or fostering, but assuming none of that is viable, their only option is to pick themselves up and get on with it. The alternative is to live miserably in a self focussed rut forever. I have known many sterile couples who have adjusted their sights when it was obvious that there was no hope of children and who have lived happy lives focusing on other stuff and other people. Sure they remain disappointed but they have not allowed it to overtake their lives.
      As a mum of six I was also chided for mentioning that fact to an old school friend who was struugling to conceive. She asked me if I had kids and, after replying that I had six, another friend branded me insensitive for saying it to some one who looked as if she couldn’t have any (she has since had one). I went straight to the one struggling, apologized if she found it difficult to hear about my family in her position and she laughed. According to her she was perfectly capable of being happy about my family and disappointed in her own misfortune, all at the same time.
      Ali, I am glad you are happy with your life, but that doesn’t mean that your life is more or less worthy than anyone elses so you are actually being incredibly rude to suggest otherwise. If some one prefers to live an opulent lifestyle instead of having kids, they have made the right choice in not having kids. Why the hell should some one have kids if they don’t want them? Having kids is a lifelong lifestyle change and it should come after serious thought about whether or not the people having them want them, are ready for them and are prepared to live with all that it entails. I congratulate any one who has made the decision either to have kids or not to have kids after they have looked honestly at themselves, their lifestyles, their gene pool and any other considerations .

    • Elphaba says:

      10:07am | 28/02/12

      @Ali,

      Just one more thing I wanted to add:

      “lame guicci lifestyle”

      I have no idea what this is, but I’m pretty sure I’m not living it.  Not on my salary, anyway.  People who don’t have kids do it for a multitude of reasons - just read any of the posts on this thread.

    • Miss N says:

      10:11am | 28/02/12

      @Elphaba - well said sweetie!

      @Ali - get a grip! Just because you choose not to have your own children in your life doesn’t mean you can’t experience the love that you’re describing! I have 9 nephews and a niece and am always surrounded by them. The only difference is that it’s not 24/7 for me and I don’t have to be around to change nappies, wipe snot and all that other disgusting crap you find rewarding. And I get to walk out the door and see my sister envy the fact that when I get home I can do whateber I please for as long as I like without a child to think about. It’s not about a Gucci lifestye for all of us, some of us are just smart enough to not pour all our money into children that’s all. It doesn’t make us less of a person or less of a woman and the only difference there is between us and you is you CHOOSE to base your life around a child and we don’t.

    • Mattb says:

      10:11am | 28/02/12

      Ali

      “As for me, having to give up some of my easy life for a child has only given me more love in my life, more patience and made me appreciate life in ways that (most) of my childess friends never have”

      Absolute rubbish, have you got any proof that this silly, self important statement you have made here is correct. It seems to me that your not only trying to convince us all that this is the case, your trying to convince yourself too.

      I’d put money on it that your a very insecure person who has had a child to justify their existence and hope that it brings more “love, patience and appreciation” into your mundane life.

      Oh, look, just like you I’ve gone and made a ridiculous statement that I have no actually proof to back up.

      As for your comment in regards to society and the need to have to have “today’s children”  to support us in “tomorrow’s retirement”. Well I hope you don’t receive middle class welfare, child care support, baby bonuses or any other number of government funded, child based handouts.  I mean, having to support the children now so we have the ‘tax payers’ to pay for society in the future seems a bit stupid really.

    • Elise says:

      10:13am | 28/02/12

      Elphaba, totally agree, very wise indeed.

      Ali, I think you’re one of the people Elphaba is talking about. You act like its a personal affront to you when others don’t have children - as if that invalidates or somehow insults your life choice.

      Don’t pretend you had a child for society - that’s crap. You had a child for you. There are plenty of people in society already.

      It’s not necessarily selfish to decide not to have a child - sometimes it’s just realistic. Just like you shouldn’t get a pet if you can’t look after them properly, you shouldn’t have a child if you don’t make a good parent. There are plenty who have children who shouldn’t have, and those children suffer. This adds nothing to society.

      Also, if you have some bad genes (e.g. Huntington’s etc.), how can you say it’s selfish not to want to pass that on to a child?

    • Elphaba says:

      10:15am | 28/02/12

      @Kika, I went to bed early last night, so I am well rested and deeply profound. tongue laugh

    • Kerryn says:

      10:27am | 28/02/12

      That’s not to say if given the chance I wouldn’t breed - I’ve often dreamed of 10 kids, 5 dogs, 2 cats and a budgie grin but I’ve accepted that it won’t happen and shouldn’t happen.

    • amy says:

      10:37am | 28/02/12

      @Ali

      daaaawwwww…how enlightened you must be…

      anyway, the species will look after itself, it doesnt need my input, the point of my life is to acheive what I want ot ahceive, whatever that may be

    • Elphaba says:

      10:37am | 28/02/12

      @Miss N, Mattb & Elise - you’re going to make her wise to the fact she’s proving my point exactly!  Shhhh… wink

      Re: their needing to be children to look after the old folk - I don’t think Australia’s experiencing a drought in viable taxpayers, so you’re all exactly right - the child I have/don’t have is of little consequence to society’s fabric.

      Thanks for the kind words. smile

    • Audra Blue says:

      11:14am | 28/02/12

      Aspergers is not fun, not for anyone.  I have been on the receiving end of people who have Aspergers and it’s destructive to the psyche and soul destroying.  I applaud your decision to not have children.

    • Jane2 says:

      11:41am | 28/02/12

      @ Emma ” I just think you dont have to be a perfect specimen in order to be a parent.”

      You dont need to be genetically related to your kids to be a great parent either. In fact some of the best parents are those that aent genetically related because they are a parent because they 100% want to be one, not because they played roulette and lost, and now have 15 plus years of another being relying on them.

    • Kerryn says:

      11:49am | 28/02/12

      @Audra Blue really?

      So having Aspergers instantly makes me a bad person?  I’ve worked for years to become a functioning member of society, a lot of non-aspies can’t be bothered.

      Hmph.

    • Kitch says:

      12:36pm | 28/02/12

      Ali, I nearly choked with laughter when you made a call in your comment about what was “logical”... That’s probably the one thing missing from your entire argument, logic.
      I think it’s fantastic that popping out a baby totally changed your life radically and it was an amazing experience. In my experience most people have children because “they wanted to”, how selfish those people are! How amazing you must be to have decided to bring an infant into this world because the very FABRIC of civilization DEPENDS upon it!
      Me however? I don’t need to justify my existence as a woman by bringing forth something from my womb. I am surrounded by love in my family, my partner and my many friends. I’ve had experiences that none of my friends with children have ever had the time (and/or money) for, I’ve got to know myself in a way that I may never have had time for with the pressing demands of raising kids. Not having a child is the best thing I’ve ever done, and I wouldn’t change a thing.

    • Anne71 says:

      12:47pm | 28/02/12

      @ Ali - you must be a troll. Either that, or you’re a very narrow-minded, judgmental and ignorant human being.  To suggest that people who choose not to have kids deserve to be viewed as “oddities” by the rest of society is just appalling. 
      As for that lame old cliche about today’s kids being tomorrow’s tax payers - big, fat, hairy deal.  We child-free people are already paying a shedload of tax so that people like YOU can have baby bonuses, paid parental leave, family tax benefits and the like - while the old-age pensioners who worked their butts off all their lives to support their families without any Government handouts have to scrape by on a pittance. 
      Believe me, by the time we hit retirement age, we are quite entitled to your little darlings paying for whatever free services might be left by that time.

    • Ali says:

      12:49pm | 28/02/12

      Ok guys, I knew some of you would be bound to call me a perfect example of what Elphaba was talking about, but I don’t see it that way. I should clarify that of course it is rediculous to think that everybody should be forced to have children - that’s not what I was implying, or at least not meaning to. I just look at it from a logical perspective as well as emotionally. I know quite a number of women who have not had children who are leading productive lives and seem to be happy. That is of course a great thing that they are happy with that. I just see from a logical and objective perspective that it is becoming very common now that less people are having children and this does, no matter how much people gloss over it, have implications for our future. It is great that democratically women have a choice, but all I was trying to say was that from my own personal experience, there are a great deal of women in my life who are either sorry they have left it too late to have children, or sorry that they have missed out for other reasons. And although they lead productive lives, it makes me feel sad for them too that they cannot share the wonderful things I have come to know. As for women who do not choose that path, of course it’s their choice and I would not for one minute take that away from them, but ‘tis a shame, that’s all. I certainly meant no disrespect. Everybody should be happy at the end of the day, and I suppose I really meant to convey that I hope you are or can be as happy as I have become since the change in my life.

    • Some guy says:

      01:19pm | 28/02/12

      Genetics are a bit more complicated than; any problems you have, will be passed onto your child.  My family has a history of Heart Disease and I will no doubt get it, but, I have back problems that neither of my parents have and to my knowledge, grand parents too. 

      My wife and I are planning children in the next 2 years and I believe that if you are prepared for the worst, you are only better prepared if you get the best. I suppose I will find out soon enough, but I don’t believe anyone in a free country like this should be treated differently for their lifestyle choice (unless illegal :p).

    • leelee says:

      01:28pm | 28/02/12

      @ Ali
      You insult women who chose to have careers (either instead of or as well as children) with throw away comments like “lame gucci lifestyle”.....and yet you claim they are the ones living unfulfilled lives with less patience, love and some other hooey…..

      Living vicariously through your child, and assigning to her the responsibility for your happiness is not only the height of selfishness, its actually quite sad.

      “I know quite a number of women who have not had children who are leading productive lives and seem to be happy.”

      Seem to be happy? You can’t even bring yourself to say that they ARE happy.
      Your smugness makes me want to vomit!!!!

    • Chris L says:

      01:49pm | 28/02/12

      @Emma - you mostly have a fair point, but asking if someone would have preferred not to have been born is a loaded question. It’s only purpose is to have someone say they wish they’d never been born (heavy topic for an online blog) or that they’re glad they were born (which has no bearing on people that don’t exist and therefore cannot be applied to theoretical offsping).

      @RED - In what way does you thinking the same thing as Emma change anything?

    • Elphaba says:

      01:52pm | 28/02/12

      @Ali, fundamentally, a few of the things you said were rather judgemental and sanctimonious.  You can’t blame the childless contributors on here for bristling.  Personally, you don’t offend me - life’s too good. wink

      If your children bring you joy and happiness in your life, then I am happy for you.  Because being unhappy sucks big time.  But as you said, women now have a choice.  We don’t need to have children to look after us in our old age - we can hire people to do that.  We can sink all the money we don’t spend on raising babies into investments that totally fund our retirement.  I don’t need to have a child to ensure that that part of my life is sorted. I can sort it out for myself.

      You’re right, people having less children does have complications for our future.  So does having too many. Back when we only lived until 40, yes, it was critically important that we procreate as much as possible.  But now we live double that.  On a planet with finite resources.  I don’t pretend when I say I don’t want children that it’s out of nobility (my decision is entirely selfish).  But it is something to think about.  Surely if we’re living longer, and consuming more resources, having more children is just as damaging?

      Regret - ah, ‘tis a funny thing.  What if I have kids and bitterly regret it?  Like I said, that decision has many more consequences.  If I don’t have them and end up regretting it - isn’t that my problem, and my business, not yours?

      I’d like to see you try telling your kids when they’re older, that you had them out of obligation for the planet and society, and so they could look after you in their old age.  You see, I don’t actually believe that’s why you had your kids - you had them because you wanted to.  Which is normal.  It’s also no less selfish than the ‘lame Gucci lifestyle’ that you sneer at.  Because having kids doesn’t guarantee that they’ll repay the kindness by looking after you in the future.  What you took is a roll of the dice.  So am I.  So are we all.  Which brings me back to my point - your decision, is no more noble, and no less selfish, than mine.

    • mick says:

      02:06pm | 28/02/12

      seriously, this is the least of your problems. about 80% of the people breeding, are NOT fit to be parents

    • Audra Blue says:

      02:17pm | 28/02/12

      Kerryn.  No, having Aspergers doesn’t make you a “bad” person.  There is no good or bad here as those are moral judgements.  Aspergers is something you are born with and it’s out of your hands.

      But Aspergers takes it’s toll on those without it and their loved ones and it destroys relationships irrepairably.  What I’m saying is that I have seen the damage it can do first hand and I have also been in the line of fire and it damaged me through no fault of my own.

      Those Aspies I have come across have a difficult life and it can’t be fun living inside their heads and trying to navigate through “normal” society.  My comment was merely congratulating you from sparing your offspring what could be a difficult and depressing life and in doing so, you’ve also spared those innocents who don’t have it who are inevitably in the emotional firing line.

      Like any mental disorder/illness/call it what you like, nobody deserves to go through the pain and chaos of Aspergers.  It’s easier to prevent it from happening in the first place than trying to pick up the pieces of shattered lives after it’s done its damage.

    • Kerryn says:

      02:32pm | 28/02/12

      I’m willing to bet there are a lot of non-aspies who suffer just as badly if not worse than aspies.  I have Aspergers, I don’t suffer from it.  Life is only as difficult as you make it, and the aspies you know obviously made it very difficult indeed.

    • Ali says:

      03:01pm | 28/02/12

      Guys, of course I didn’t have my child because of the planet’s future. I had them because I wanted to be a mum. The society issue is just a side topic of interest. Elphaba, I’m glad you can disagree with me civilly because some people are starting to get really unnecessarily personal here rather than just debating the topic. As for my ‘judgements’, you don’t know my friends - I say they seem to be happy because they themselves have told me to my face that they are often unhappy because they want kids and can’t have them for whatever reason - it’s not because I’m merely making assumptions about their feelings. And yes, there are a lot of people out there who are not good parents but we can’t always predict who will and won’t be. Call me sanctimonious or whatever, but like everyone else, I’m calling it from the experiences I have gone through and by the situations which we are finding ourselves in as a community. There’s no malicious intent here for anyone’s decision to have a child or not. I’m merely raising a a few points for discussion.

    • Elphaba says:

      03:23pm | 28/02/12

      Your argument is a little disjointed, Ali.

      Your friends regrets are their own.  They can’t know if having a child would have made a difference.  And people are getting catty with you because you asserted a certain amount of superiority because you are a parent.  Belittling comments like ‘lame Gucci lifestyle’ haven’t endeared you to anyone.  And my point all along has been, that you are no better for having children.  You just like to think that you are, because God-forbid someone other than people that you directly know are happy with a childless existence of disposable income and quiet homes.

      You’ve proven my point.  Several times. Thank you. smile

    • me my mo says:

      04:02pm | 28/02/12

      Don’t worry, Ali. I get what you’re saying and tend to agree with some of your points but I think it’s pointless arguing such a topic here because it’s not a straight-forward argument and as you are finding, people are taking your comments quite personally.

    • Em says:

      04:32pm | 28/02/12

      Getting back to the original statement by Kerryn (because I can’t be bothered to read the bickering), I can only agree with her statement.

      In every single branch of my family there is a child with a mental disorder. My sister was the first to be diagnosed. My aunts now both have children who have disorders (extremely severe and violent Aspie in one, OCD in the other - in retrospect, my sis got off easy). I am prone to bouts of intense depression.

      If my grandmother (now gone) was to be tested today, it’s likely to be found that she too has Aspies or some form of autism. 

      One of my aunts has problems too.

      Now my nephew is showing signs of a problem. He’s 5.

      FOUR generations of mental disorder through one side of the family tree. You cannot tell me that this shit isn’t hereditary.

      I’ll be damned if I am going to raise a kid with these problems and put them out there into an uncaring society.  From experience I know how hard it is on BOTH sides of the coin.

      I don’t want a special needs child.  Raising one isn’t a picnic and being one ain’t much fun either. (Sorry Kerryn, that’s not directed at you - you obviously have your situation sorted.)

      On the other hand, I would LOVE to be a mum.  I also have severe PCOS and back problems which makes things difficult in that area too.

      I figure it’s just easier to choose not to try and be involved with the family and friends that I have and my husband.  I’m hardly loveless. I thoroughly enjoy my life as it is.

    • Geoff says:

      06:29pm | 28/02/12

      I think this is a fact -> in MOST cases, having children makes you a better person.  NOT necessarily better than anyone else of course, but better than you were before you had children.  Being a parent might look unappealing because of the number of sacrifices you have to make, but sacrificing your own desires for the good of someone else is usually much more satisfying and fulfilling than selfishness can ever be.  When that sacrifice is being made for someone whose life you value above your own (as is likely in the case of your child), that sacrifice is made with no thought or regret and life is better for it.
      I do believe that people who choose childlessness so that they can enjoy themselves more are doing themselves a disservice.  I think the irony is that for most, this choice will reduce the enjoyment they find in life.
      of course there are legitimate reasons (e.g. Kerryn’s) why people choose not to have children.  I think Kerryn’s being a bit hard on herself though.

    • Chris L says:

      07:16pm | 28/02/12

      @Geoff - you raise a fair point, but there are a few parents I know (one cronic example) where there is no thought of sacrificing for the benefit of another. These particular examples often treat their children as inconveniences and often make decisions for their own benefit to the detriment of their offspring.

      That said, my evidence is purely anecdotal and I also know many parents who are, as you say, better people for the experience (with the added benefit of being surrounded by a loving family).

      I think much of the rebellion you are seeing here is against the smug superiority many (certainly not all) parents display when talking about the benefits of reproducing. Many of us childless people are unconvinced, especially when we witness the abject envy many of these same people show for the childless lifestyle.

    • Rio says:

      07:19pm | 28/02/12

      Kerryn, I too have dodgy bits (thanks to family members not talking before procreating) so I have a heart condition, gyne problems that would make any woman blush, MS, scoliosis, asthma, a bad temper if really provoked (Irish, Scottish and German heritage), bad knees hips and ankles, a breast lump and so much cancer in my family that your lucky if you dont get it all. But in my favor I am smart and quite attractive. But after making a pledge never to marry (oh, my parents were not nice people too), I did meet a man who has a) nothing wrong with him physically or mentally, b) is tall (6’4”), dark (Italian but doesnt look Italian), and who is extremely intelligent, and c) loves me unconditionally, as I do him. And we have an 8th month old girl who is extremely intelligent, strong as an ox, the healthiest baby the Dr’s had ever seen and gorgeous, and I wouldn’t change a thing. I am not suggesting go out and have a baby and you might get lucky, but I am saying dont say never. You never know what is around the corner.

    • bekbek says:

      08:58pm | 28/02/12

      i just think its ur choice nobody elses, execpt natures.

      what annoys me is people that hate people with kids. i dont get it.

      i have kids. the cocktail of horemones is wonderful though. after all that is the only thing that stops ppl from killing their young sometimes smile

    • Erick says:

      05:17am | 28/02/12

      Whenever a female politician gets into trouble, we always see the playing of the gender card. “They’re only picking on her because she’s a girl!”, the feminists wail - even while they are only supporting her because she’s a girl!

      Male politicians suffer from sexist insults too, but they don’t get to cry about it. They just have to deal with it, like responsible grown-ups.

      It’s time we accepted that female politicians are responsible grown-ups, too, and quit the sexist double standard.

    • marley says:

      05:48am | 28/02/12

      Erick:  it’s pretty hard to attack someone as being “barren” and then claim it isn’t a sexist insult.  No one criticised Chifley, for being “childless,” or thought he meant it couldn’t relate to the public, so why does Julia get stick on this particular point. 

      And the issue here anyway isn’t whether Julia is a “responsible grown-up” but whether her critics are.  At least on this point, I vote no.

    • SteveKAG says:

      05:56am | 28/02/12

      Here here…..this line here is a standout….....

      “In week of whirring insults, the claim that ex-PM ex-FM Kevin Rudd called Prime Minister Julia Gillard a “childless, atheist, ex-Communist” is a standout.”

      It is only a standout because you’re a woman and a feminist Tory. Legitimately most poeple don’t care…....

      The standout comment for me was “Mr. Rudd is a deeply flawed man”, yet the liar still made him foreign minister and the main man representing our country!

    • Emma says:

      06:11am | 28/02/12

      Erick I actually think that they do get treated differently. I am of German nationality and as we know we have a female chancellor. Before she took over noone would ever make comments or spend a thought on looks but especially in the beginning she got constant bullying about her looks which had never happened before when we had male chancellors and it is totally out of place as it does not have anything to do with her job. And you know she cant win: Sexy or ugly - she would be bullied for either.

      So it SHOULD not make a difference but unfortunately it does.

    • Nathan says:

      06:12am | 28/02/12

      Do female politicians actually come out and say this or does the media do it for them?

    • Joan says:

      06:16am | 28/02/12

      Erick: your right-  most men and women take responsiblity for their life choices and those that take up a public life have to live with them out in the open where it will be scrutinised , and commented on. Big deal.

    • Bertrand says:

      06:41am | 28/02/12

      I don’t think most attacks happen to a female politician happen because she is female, they happen because she is disliked for other reasons.

      However once the attack comes the female factor can often be incorporated into the attack.

      For example, the no carbon tax rallies were attacking Gillard because the protestors felt deceived by the PM and were angry about the reform ; it wasn’t Gillard being female that people had a problem with.

      However, in expressing their anger, many if the protestors fell to sexism as a means of attack. It was a particularly nasty way to express their anger and did their cause no good.

    • wakeuppls says:

      06:45am | 28/02/12

      @Steve The communist part is true. She was a member of a socialist society in her student days and loves market manipulation via carbon taxes and gigantic overpriced infrastructure projects.

    • The righteous one says:

      06:53am | 28/02/12

      I dont know Erick,  I’m a male and deliberately barren and i find the remarks offensive.  I may not have children because I chose not to, but that does not mean I dont like children and that i am not empathetic towards parents.  However, there is no getting away from the fact that blokes dont cop criticism for not wanting children yet women do. So your normal sexist rant crap is irrelevant .

    • acotrel says:

      07:19am | 28/02/12

      @marley
      Are you calling the Australian voting public misogynist ?  Surely that couldn’t be true, it sounds almost as bad as ‘racist’ ! If julia had a sex change and grew some big ears, and hair all over her body,  she’d certainly win the next election ! She wouldn’t even need any policies.

    • Erick One Eye says:

      07:22am | 28/02/12

      “Erick:  it’s pretty hard to attack someone as being “barren” and then claim it isn’t a sexist insult.  No one criticised Chifley, for being “childless,” or thought he meant it couldn’t relate to the public, so why does Julia get stick on this particular point.

      And the issue here anyway isn’t whether Julia is a “responsible grown-up” but whether her critics are.  At least on this point, I vote no.”

      This is an excellent point and one that Brave Sir Erick wont respond to, he always runs when challenged.

    • Rosie says:

      07:24am | 28/02/12

      I agree here we go again, playing the gender card.

      With Gillard I can’t see what’s the big deal in the 21st century when you are being called ‘childless’ especially if it’s fact. Gillard didn’t take into account the concept of those that have faith when questioned and declared boldly to the nation she didn’t believe in God. Why should she care or take offense if called ‘childless’?

      She has no problems, she is the PM so once again boldly explain to the nation if for some medical reason she was not able to conceive - people will naturally feel sorry for her and wouldn’t freely use it against her in an offensive way. If it is because she has put her ambition before having children I say take it like a man!

      I have friends who are not career minded, love staying home taking care of the kids, ostracized all the time and made to feel they are dummies. Do they care? No!

    • acotrel says:

      07:24am | 28/02/12

      @wakuppls
      Socialist = communist ?  That’s long been a problem amongst the ignorant.  It was the basis of commiephobia ! It’s like branding every conservative as a Nazi - it’s only some of them !

    • acotrel says:

      07:28am | 28/02/12

      @Erick
      How many sexist insults does Bob Brown get ?  The people who have a go at Julia on that basis are chickenshit !

    • marley says:

      07:32am | 28/02/12

      @acotrel:  no, I’m not saying the Australian public is misogynist.  I’m saying that sexist comments reflect on the speaker more than they do on the person being criticised. 

      And there are plenty of reasons to criticise Julia Gillard and the rabble that is the current ALP without needing to resort to childish sniping.  Speaking of which, you might want to try a little mature commentary yourself some time.

    • Tubesteak says:

      07:37am | 28/02/12

      People People People!!!

      A bit of perspective is needed here. Look at who Tory referenced in this discussion:

      Mark Latham - a certifiable whackjob Keating wannabe without the flair, panache and wit of Keating

      Bill Heffernan and George Brandis - have you ever seen either of these people speak in a public forum without a script? A good example is their appearances on Q&A. They make salivating pit-bull fighting dogs seem logical and reserved. They are not someone to take seriously.

      Most of the people don’t care what Gillard does with her uterus or how she looks. All politicians cop a bit of flack for how they look (remember Howard before his makeover?). It’s just part of the game. Smart people ignore it.

    • year of the dragon says:

      07:43am | 28/02/12

      acotrel says: 08:19am | 28/02/12

      “Are you calling the Australian voting public misogynist ?”

      Not only was the Australian voting public the second in the world to give women the vote but the Australian voting public have elected multiple female candidates including a deeply flawed and utterly incompetent Prime Minister.

      I think that calling the Australian voting public mysoginistic reflects and deeply held, anti-conservative bias. 

      “If julia had a sex change and grew some big ears, and hair all over her body,  she’d certainly win the next election”

      Really? She managed to win the last election without any of this and against a bloke who had all of these things.

      Mabye there is more to it than a lack of a penis.

    • Erick says:

      07:50am | 28/02/12

      @marley - Male politicians get sexist insults, too. They are often accused of having “dick-measuring contests” and similar sexist remarks. Tony Abbott has been falsely accused of being a “misogynist” as well.

      Insults and abuse go with the territory, and political enemies will pick on anything they can.

      @Emma - Did you not notice how Tony Abbott constantly gets mocked for having big ears, or how he’s always portrayed in cartoons wearing nothing but a pair of red budgie smugglers? Male politicians get picked on for their appearance just as much as female ones do.

      It’s only feminists who try to make a big issue out of it when a woman is the target.

      @Nathan - In most cases, such as Cheryl Kernot’s, it’s the female politician herself who plays the gender card. In Gillard’s case, so far, it’s only been her supporters bringing it up.

      There have been at least four articles on The Punch specifically claiming that Julia Gillard is being picked on because she’s a woman.

    • MarkS says:

      08:03am | 28/02/12

      I am in two minds about if there is a double standard here. Sure on the face of it an attack on Gillard becouse she is childless appears sexist.

      But how many top male pollies are unmarried without children?

      I strongly suspect that if a middle aged male pollie was a single man without children he would cop crap about unable to connect to “working familes” becouse he is nto a family man.

      The media was quite willing to give Hewsons ex-wife a pulpit to prove true the sayings about a woman spurned.

    • wakeuppls says:

      08:07am | 28/02/12

      @acotrel
      Socialism is part of communism, no doubt. As I said, economic policies that are strong in governmental regulation and/or absolute control are communist. NBN and carbon taxes are evidence of this.

    • Baroness says:

      08:10am | 28/02/12

      Rosie, I’ve put my ambition before having children.

      “Take it like a man” Happily. If I were a man, it wouldn’t be an issue, so unfortunately I have to suffer through comments like yours because I’m a woman.

      Your friend’s being discriminated against because of their choice due to the closed minded views of some people is wrong. I’m glad they’re toughing it out, that’s good. But you make their choice no easier, by attacking the ‘other’ choice that women can make these days.

      In fact, you’re worse than the closed minded people, you’ve seen that acting that way is wrong and yet, you continue to do it.

    • bananabender says:

      08:29am | 28/02/12

      @Acotrel.

      The Socialist Forum was the COMMUNIST faction of the ALP.

    • Peter says:

      08:56am | 28/02/12

      Erick, the budgie smuggler depiction of Abbott is more a mockery of the the front page photo of him in his budgies which his former employer, The Australian, chose to run at the beginning of his tenure as opposition leader. 

      Quite obviously they (The Australian) who are undeniably his unofficial PR arm, wanted to give him a macho image to promote him.  His advisors would have sanctioned it and perhaps even suggested it.  So we take the piss out that concocted image, because its laughable, not the fact that he wears budgies on occasion.

      Gillard’s large bottom, on the other hand, is something which she didn’t use as a promotional tool and is probably embarrased about.  Do you see the difference?

    • Mattb says:

      09:04am | 28/02/12

      wakeuppls says: 09:07am | 28/02/12
      @acotrel
      Socialism is part of communism, no doubt. As I said, economic policies that are strong in governmental regulation and/or absolute control are communist. NBN and carbon taxes are evidence of this.

      I think you need to wake up and have a closer look at TA’s current policy platform. It’s more socialist than gillard’s ya silly twit. Atleast pricing carbon is a market based mechanism, what do you call the corporate welfare system that is direct action. How about ol’ TA’s maternity leave or his ex-bosses middle class welfare, socialism at its best.

      Every time you conservative idiots open your mouths your foot slides further in. Your whole arguement is flawed. Conservatives have their hands out for government support at every turn and as soon as the money clears in the bank they start critisizing the very hand that gives it to them. The ultimate hypocrites…

    • William says:

      09:10am | 28/02/12

      I can’t remember ever hearing about a male politician being criticised for not having children. Someone remind me please.

    • JA says:

      09:13am | 28/02/12

      How the feminists suddenly become responsible for the name calling of the male politicians is beyone me.
      Oh wait, thats because its Erick’s answer to everything.

    • Ando says:

      09:13am | 28/02/12

      Emma,
      Was it sexist when Howard was hammered about his looks?

    • RyaN says:

      09:26am | 28/02/12

      @acotrel: “Socialist = communist ?  That’s long been a problem amongst the ignorant.”
      Ok acotrel, so who conceived of socialism?
      Where was the concept first published?

    • Rosie says:

      09:32am | 28/02/12

      @ Baroness

      “Put ambition before kids” Good for you, so what exactly is your problem? Male or female, makes no difference. If you want kids you do something about it. Some of us can combine the two very well, ambition and kids, others choose to adopt children to stay happy and contented. If you have a medical problem you can afford to stay precious by explaining to people. I look at Gillard and all I see these days is ambition and greed for high office and probably why she chose not to have kids. I don’t have a problem with that.

      Roxon, Pilberserk, Wong all play the gender card when it suits. In actual fact it is so obvious they are on the look out for it, to add to their defense when fronted with the hard questions.

      Gillard Labor are a mob of fraudulent try hard wannabes that we now have to endure their daily repeated veneer to mislead the public yet again, they have kissed and made up! Sorry but my take for Arbib’s quick exist was Rudd forced him out. “Leave or I’ll pull the pin.” What and how else am I suppose to think, after the way they humiliated me and my country behaving badly in public.

    • James1 says:

      10:00am | 28/02/12

      RyaN, it was Robert Owen who first clearly defined socialism in 1817, while Karl Marx was a little boy.  It predates communism, and is quite distinct.  Also, it is a vast oversimplification to use socialism and communism interchangeably - while they are similar, and Marx theorised that socialism was one of the steps down the path towards communism, there are many important disctinctions which many people overlook, and their arguments lack power because of this lack of basic knowledge of what they argue against.

      As I tell people constantly, read this stuff, understand it.  Because unless you have intimate knowledge of that which you oppose, how can you possibly expect to oppose it effectively?

    • rudy says:

      10:02am | 28/02/12

      Can you provide some quotes of these sexist insults you claim are also suffered by male politicians, Erwrick? Not that I doubt you, or anything?

    • RyaN says:

      10:05am | 28/02/12

      @acotrel: Here let me answer those questions on your “ignorant” rant:
      - Socialism was played out in the French revolution but solidified as an economic system by none other than Karl Marx.
      - The concept was first published in “The communist manifesto”.

      The entire economic system of socialism is born out of communism.

      The Australian Labor Party is accredited with being the first party in the world to bring communism into a country under the guise of democracy with socialism, the communist agenda continues today and we now have a blatantly communist leader.

      “The Revolution won’t happen with guns, rather it will happen incrementally, year by year, generation by generation. We will gradually infiltrate their educational institutions and their political offices, transforming them slowly into Marxist entities as we move towards universal egalitarianism.” MAX HORKHEIMER,Marxist Theoretician

    • RyaN says:

      10:36am | 28/02/12

      @James1: While I am happy to be corrected, I believe the same can be said for communism having its origin in 1831 however never really solidified as the oppressive, murderous, dictatorial scourge that we know today until Marx.

    • James1 says:

      11:05am | 28/02/12

      Even then, RyaN, Marx never advocated what eventuated in every communist system.  The authoritarian systems we saw develop in places like the USSR and China bear little resemblance to the type of utopian society posited in the work of Marx and Engels.  This is why it is important to read the works of people like Marx, Engels, Owen, Bukharin and others, and to study the history of the west.  In order to argue against those we oppose, we need an indepth understanding of the basis of their thought.

    • Erick says:

      11:11am | 28/02/12

      @rudy - “Can you provide some quotes of these sexist insults you claim are also suffered by male politicians, Erwrick?”

      Here you go!

      There’s plenty more where that came from. Just use this thing called Google.

    • Audra Blue says:

      11:21am | 28/02/12

      Gillard would be a bad PM with or without kids.  The kids aren’t the problem.  She stuffed up all on her own.  Attacking her for not having kids is just another insult to hurl at her.  You look at what a person has or doesn’t have and you attack them on that basis.  It’s basic human nature.

    • William says:

      11:21am | 28/02/12

      Still nothing ? Surely someone’s heard of a male politician being critised for not having children. Anyone ?

    • amy says:

      11:32am | 28/02/12

      @Rosie- I dont think the fact that she didnt have kids has to ONLY do with ambtion/greed

      some people just dont want them, I fail to see why thats a problem, having kids isnt somthing as casual as choosign what kind fo car to drive that a haricut

    • Anne71 says:

      12:51pm | 28/02/12

      @Erick - I’m the first to agree that the word “sexist” is far too overused these days, especially when it comes to anything even slightly negative being said about Gillard. However, you have to agree that not too many child-free men get called “deliberately barren” - in fact, I can’t think of any.  Why is it only a Bad Thing for a woman to be childless?

    • wakeuppls says:

      01:07pm | 28/02/12

      @Mattb
      For starters, I don’t support Tony Abbott or the Liberal Party. They are the other side of the same socialist coin. I’d be careful about calling me a conservative when you don’t even know what my political alignment is, and even doubly careful considering you don’t even know what a real conservative actually is.

      But hey, if you’re a leftist, as it seems you are with all your drone-level understanding of conservative vs. liberal politics, you’d already know exactly what all my views are from everything to the economy to abortion. Please, enlighten everyone with your black and white misinformed propaganda.

    • Rosie says:

      01:08pm | 28/02/12

      Amy

      Having kids is a choice! My impression of Gillard from when she knifed Rudd to the way she has duped the public since and added to her recent atrocious behaviour it is ‘DINK’ double income no kids, ‘ambition & greed is first priority.

      What really is the problem here, Gillard has the power she doesn’t need to prove anything to anyone except to mislead the public that she should remain our PM, to which she does extremely well.

    • year of the dragon says:

      01:14pm | 28/02/12

      James1 says:12:05pm | 28/02/12

      “The authoritarian systems we saw develop in places like the USSR and China bear little resemblance to the type of utopian society posited in the work of Marx and Engels.”

      They are one in the same. The differences between socialism and communism are irrelevent for the purposes of this discussion. Both types of economic system necessarily require an authoritarian political system to enforce. That is the inherent evil of socialism/communism.

    • Erick One Eye says:

      01:36pm | 28/02/12

      Having forced Erick out from underneath his rock by highlighting the fact that Ecca’s typical tactic is to post partisan one eyed rubbish and then run away from any challenging arguments I expected a weak reply and I have to say I wasn’t disappointed.

      “Male politicians get sexist insults, too. They are often accused of having “dick-measuring contests” and similar sexist remarks.”

      So pointing out the overt aggression of some males is some how as bad as calling a female politician barren when that same label could but is never applied to a male politician?

      “Tony Abbott has been falsely accused of being a “misogynist” as well.”

      Because he is!

      Rape Joke:

      “Are you suggesting to me that when it comes to Julia, no doesn’t mean no?” he said.


      http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/abbott-trips-at-paid-parental-leave-launch-with-no-gaffe/story-fn59niix-1225900540259

      Apparently rape is ok if the man isn’t too pushy:
      “....and this idea that sex is kind of a woman’s right to absolutely withhold, just as the idea that sex is a man’s right to demand I think they are both they both need to be moderated, so to speak. “

      http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s2514401.htm


      Apparently only women do house work:
      “What the housewives of Australia need to understand as they do the ironing is that if they get it done commercially it’s going to go up in price, and their own power bills when they switch the iron on are going to go up.”

      http://www.smh.com.au/national/abbott-accused-of-being-incredibly-oldfashioned-as-he-lets-off-steam-20100209-nnqr.html

      There are many, many others “Just use a little thing called Google”.


      The best disinfectant is sunlight.

    • James1 says:

      01:41pm | 28/02/12

      All that tells me is that you have never actually read the works of Karl Marx, year of the dragon.  I suggest you do so.

    • William says:

      01:53pm | 28/02/12

      Still nothing? This is turning out to be the most disappointing comment thread ever.

      In a world full of bizarre and ubelievable occurrences, are a few examples of male politicians being criticised for not having children really too much to ask for?

      Any male politician. Any country. Any historical period. Come on!

    • RyaN says:

      02:02pm | 28/02/12

      @Erick One Eye: “the best disinfectant is sunlight”

      I beg to differ, the best disinfectant is fire!

    • Mattb says:

      02:58pm | 28/02/12

      ” wakeuppls says: 02:07pm | 28/02/12
      @Mattb
      For starters, I don’t support Tony Abbott or the Liberal Party. They are the other side of the same socialist coin. I’d be careful about calling me a conservative when you don’t even know what my political alignment is, and even doubly careful considering you don’t even know what a real conservative actually is.

      But hey, if you’re a leftist, as it seems you are with all your drone-level understanding of conservative vs. liberal politics, you’d already know exactly what all my views are from everything to the economy to abortion. Please, enlighten everyone with your black and white misinformed propaganda.”


      Wow, hit a nerve there, so if you don’t support Tony abbott and the liberal party and you don’t like labor because they’re lefty communists, then who do you vote for?. The Greens?, no they’re commies too apparently. Shooters and fishers?, no thats a vote for tony. Family first?, no, another vote for tony. Let me guess, your a fool that donkey votes then whinges over the result.

      You could be like me, vote based on policy, I’ve voted both labor and liberal in the past. IMO the current labor party policy platform is slightly right of the political spectrum if anything. TA and the liberals policies are rubbish. I think you’d find that if the policies of all parties were viewed, without knowing who’s were who’s, that most true liberals would vote for labors current policies, yet here you are claiming they are “commie socialism”. Over exaggerating slightly aren’t we buddy….

    • year of the dragon says:

      03:13pm | 28/02/12

      James1 says:02:41pm | 28/02/12

      “All that tells me is that you have never actually read the works of Karl Marx, year of the dragon.  I suggest you do so.”

      Ah, the certainty of youth.

      First up, my comments were intended to address your comment that the “authoritarian systems we saw develop in places like the USSR and China bear little resemblance to the type of utopian society posited in the work of Marx and Engels.”

      Well, it couldn’t possibly be because they failed to extend their philosophies to their logical conclusion could it?

      I’ve not read “the works” and have no intention of doing so. However, I have graduate and post-graduate qualifications in economics and feel qualified to comment even if it was over twenty years ago.

      One could argue at length as to the origins of socialism, what socialism is and whether communism is merely an extension of socialism. I don’t have the inclination for that and, in any case, it is irrelevant to my point: to wit, that both socialism and communism require an authoritarian political system to be effectively implemented.

      However, as your posts are typically it’s clear that you have a very good academic background. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to how an economic system (socialism, communism, marxism) that requires a re-distribution of property can be implemented without resorting to force, particularly where socialism is merely “one of the steps down the path towards communism”.

      I’ve not read “the works” and have no intention of doing so. However, I have graduate and post-graduate qualifications in economics and feel qualified to comment even if it was over twenty years ago.

      One could argue at length as to the origins of socialism, what socialism is and whether communism is merely an extension of socialism. I don’t have the inclination for that and, in any case, it is irrelevant to my point: to wit, that both socialism and communism require an authoritarian political system to be effectively implemented.

      However, as your posts are typically thoughtful and it’s clear that you have a very good academic background, perhaps you could enlighten me as to how an economic system (socialism, communism, marxism) that requires a re-distribution of property can be implemented without resorting to force.

    • rudy says:

      03:23pm | 28/02/12

      Eric 12:11pm - I asked you for examples of sexist comments about male politicians - in the context of this article you should have taken it as read that I meant comments made by other politicians or by mainstream media figures. Those obscure and unsavoury web sites with references to Tony Abbott’s d!ck hardly equate with material referenced in the article, do they? They just serve to demonstrate how you must obsessively scour the bowels of the web in your obsessive way.

    • RyaN says:

      03:36pm | 28/02/12

      @Mattb: “You could be like me, vote based on policy, I’ve voted both labor and liberal in the past. IMO the current labor party policy platform is slightly right of the political spectrum if anything. TA and the liberals policies are rubbish.”

      Now I have seen this script pushed by the Labor propaganda merchants so many times now on different websites that I believe this must be written into some Labor propaganda instruction sheet.

      Pro tip, if you want to be believable, try not to spew forth the exact same thing from the exact same script.

    • William says:

      03:56pm | 28/02/12

      Still nothing ? That’s it. I give up.

      I hope you people are happy now you’ve made poor Erick look like a complete fool.

    • clazberri says:

      03:59pm | 28/02/12

      @ Erick 12:11pm | 28/02/12

      I don’t like Mr Abbott for many reasons, but can I just say that I was absolutely disgusted at what I saw when I went to your link.

    • James1 says:

      04:17pm | 28/02/12

      yotd, on that, we agree.  The types of policies advocated in the works of Karl Marx cannot be implemented without resort to force, and by extension authoritarian political systems.  That we now know.

      But if you read Marx, you will find that he fundamentally misunderstood human nature, and he genuinely believed you could implement a workers’ paradise without resorting to authoritarian state structures in the long term.  All it would take, according to Marx, was to effectively, and through education, inculcate a sense of class consciousness in the working classes.  That is, by making them understand properly their place in the economic structure, they would better understand that their interests actually lie in uniting around economic objectives on a class basis and ejecting their perceived oppressors (the capitalists) from positions of power.  He genuinely thought this could be done through sheer force of numbers and through crudely majoritarian processes, once of course the instruments of the capitalists state had been defeated partly through force of arms.  Hence his stages of the revolution.

      Thus, Marx was convinced that the central plank of his economic theory - the abolition of private property - was acheivable through a sort of workers collective, where decisionmaking was devolved and decentralised to workers communes (arranged around their particular relationship to the means of production) in stages.  The ultimate stage - communism - he envisaged as a perfect democracy, where every individual had almost exactly the same level of input in society.  This did not necessitate a strong, authoritarian central state, or indeed a central state at all in the anarchist and anarcho-syndicalist versions of his theory.  It was Lenin, and other, later Marxist theorists, who saw the integrity of the communist project as being inextricably linked to an authoritarian state with absolute power. 

      What Marx couldn’t account for was the human need for incentives, which I am sure as an economist you do not need explained.  His proposed system lacked incentives for individual effort, and thus those attempting to practice it needed to provide them.  Given that those incentives most likely to end in human action (economic incentives) were off limits due to the nature of the communist program, other incentives were used.  In the case of every communist country, that incentive was “do what we say or we will kill you or put you in a camp”.

    • acotrel says:

      04:54pm | 28/02/12

      @year of the dragon
      ‘I think that calling the Australian voting public mysoginistic reflects and deeply held, anti-conservative bias. ‘

      So you are saying that conservatives are mysoginistic ?  I’m starting to revise my maths, especially set theory !

    • acotrel says:

      04:59pm | 28/02/12

      @Bertrand
      ‘I don’t think most attacks happen to a female politician happen because she is female, they happen because she is disliked for other reasons.’
      If Julia Gillard was not leading the government, she would not be hated.  We are experiencing the biggest dummy spit in history !


      JUlia Gillard

    • Erick One Eye says:

      05:02pm | 28/02/12

      BTW Erick the “Clever”‘s Google search of “Tony Abbott Penis” proves only that there’s a lot of dross on the internet not that there’s an unspoken gender bias against men. Not when similar searches on Gillard can produce similar levels of dross. Try Julia Gillard “C#@&”.

      ” RyaN says: 03:02pm | 28/02/12
      @Erick One Eye: “the best disinfectant is sunlight”

      I beg to differ, the best disinfectant is fire!”

      Next time Erick crawls out from under his rock we can as him.

    • Bertrand says:

      05:47pm | 28/02/12

      @RyaN - “Now I have seen this script pushed by the Labor propaganda merchants so many times now on different websites that I believe this must be written into some Labor propaganda instruction sheet.”

      As hard as this may be for you to believe, it is highly likely that there are a number of people in Australia who don’t support a particular party, and do in fact, consider each policy based on its merits, not on some prior allegiance to a political party as if it were a sports team.

      You come onto this website every day screaming socialist, yet when people point out that as far as major policies go, the coalition has a number of policies that sit far to the left of the ALP, you simply accuse them of being a Labor mole, instead of actually responding to the arguments they are making. By all means criticise the policies if you disagree with them, but simply rebutting someone’s arguments by calling them a socialist or a Labor mole isn’t really proving anything other than the lack of substance behind your opinions.

      The observation made by MAttB that some coalition policies sit to the left of Labor’s policies is one that is easily verifiable through a simple policy analysis.

      For example,  introducing a carbon price is a more market based approach than the coalition’s direct action policy. If you accept the science behind climate change and believe in market economics over socialist economics you will support the ALP’s policy over the coalition’s.

      If you don’t accept the science behind climate change, I’m not sure how you can translate that to an attack on one party over the other, because as far as I am aware, willingness to accept science isn’t a partisan issue.

      Likewise, if you are against the use of taxation to redistribute wealth (as you seemingly are, with your willingness to cry socialism every day), you would see the coalition’s paid parental leave scheme, which is funded through an increase in the corporate tax rate, as poor policy.

      The simple fact is that any rational assessment of both parties’ policy platforms will have you supporting some policies from one party and some other policies from another party. For example, I support the coalition’s stance on private health insurance rebates over the ALP’s (although to be honest, I would prefer there not to be a rebate at all, but if there is one, I firmly believe it should apply to all taxpayers), as well as their position on school funding.

      I encourage you to actually try to participate in these discussions on a policy level, as opposed to a partisan one. You can still make criticisms of policy (for example, despite me supporting the Labor carbon policy over the coalition’s I still see it as a flawed policy, particularly with regards to its over-reliance on offshore carbon markets), but it means that you actually arrive at your conclusions via a rationale assessment of each policy and how it fits into your belief systems, as opposed to deciding if you are for or against a policy simply by the colours of the ‘team’ presenting it.

      It was only a day or two ago that I was apparently participating in a ‘conservative circle-jerk’ for my criticisms of the influence the factions and unions have over the ALP, so the fact that I am pissing off people from the ALP cheer-squad as well suggests that perhaps I really do approach these debates at a policy level and not a partisan level. Likewise, it is more than likely that there is more than one person in the world who might actually do this.

    • Bertrand says:

      06:08pm | 28/02/12

      @year of the dragon - “They are one in the same. The differences between socialism and communism are irrelevent for the purposes of this discussion. Both types of economic system necessarily require an authoritarian political system to enforce. That is the inherent evil of socialism/communism.”

      You are right that it is irrelevant for this discussion.  In day-to-day discussions most people think of communism they think of the USSR or Cuba. Of course, strictly speaking, both of these societies got stuck in the socialism phase and were never truly communist. This was an inherent problem in Marx’s theory, as he failed to recognise that the state wouldn’t devolve its power.

      In fact the opposite happened. Socialism, as we saw it in the USSR, was a fundamentally anti-human ideology, as individuals were subsumed to mere cogs in the functioning of the state. I would argue that the opposite economic ideology, libertarianism, does the same thing and, for this reason, is also inherently evil. In Libertarianism, however, individuals aren’t cogs to serve the needs of the state, but cogs to serve the needs of the market.

      In both cases, these ideologies forget that an economic model exists to serve the best interests of the people, the people don’t exist to serve the best interests of the model.

      You will find that is why pretty much every developed economy is a mixed one; that is, it is based on market economics, but understands there is a role for government to shape the rules of the market and to intervene where markets fail.

      Those who scream ‘socialist’ at any government action they disapprove of, are failing to recognise the fact we function in a mixed economy, and that we do so for a reason. They are also demonstrating a fundamental misunderstanding of what socialism is. A better line of attack would be to simply explain why government intervention in each specific case they disagree with is wrong or flawed.

    • year of the dragon says:

      06:29pm | 28/02/12

      acotrel says: 05:54pm | 28/02/12

      “So you are saying that conservatives are mysoginistic ? 

      Oh you tricky dicky acotrel.

      But don’t go revising your maths because I’m sure that conservatives are no more mysoginistic than progressives.

      My intention was to point out that due to your biases you assume that the only reason for conservatives to criticise Gillard is because they are sexists.

      But I’ll give you this one old mate because frankly I’m feeling a little sorry for you at the moment. You know, the way that people barrack for Japan when they play the All Blacks in rugby.

    • year of the dragon says:

      06:42pm | 28/02/12

      James1 says: 05:17pm | 28/02/12

      “yotd, on that, we agree.  The types of policies advocated in the works of Karl Marx cannot be implemented without resort to force, and by extension authoritarian political systems. ”

      And that is all I was saying.

      “But if you read Marx, you will find that he fundamentally misunderstood human nature”

      That is neither here nor there. I didn’t offer an opinion as to whether he understood or misunderstood human nature.

    • DocBud says:

      10:05pm | 28/02/12

      @ Bertrand

      “For example,  introducing a carbon price is a more market based approach than the coalition’s direct action policy.”

      There is nothing remotely market based about Labor’s carbon tax. A carbon price is not market based in general terms because if governments did not artificially create a carbon dioxide market, the true market would value it at $0.

      In the case of Labor’s carbon tax the price has been set at a high level that will continue to rise. Further more, to prevent companies meeting their commitments through international permits, Labor has set a limit of 50% of international permits and set a floor price of $15 so if you buy at $7, about the current price, you’ll have to pay a top up price of $15, i.e. the Labor party is deliberately trying to prevent the market from denying it tax revenue.

      I believe all parties in Australia are some shade of red (Bob Katter has gone full on red which is not inappropriate given some of his policies). This is largely due to compulsory voting which encourages pork barrelling to buy the votes of those whose votes are for sale to the highest bidder. There is no mileage in a policy of small government and low government spending, too many people would see nothing in it for them. The supposed Aussie concept of a “fair go” as typically articulated is not about having the opportunity to work hard and make a living for oneself and one’s family but about taking from those who do work hard and giving to those who don’t.

    • yobogod says:

      07:57am | 29/02/12

      @Erick,
      there is another possibility:
      when Abbott gets paid out for wearing his budgie smugglers, its because it was such an obvious and inherently egotistical ploy, much like everything Abbott does.

      To apply the sexism test, you do not introduce new data, you simply adjust the sex.
      Men do not cop flack for living childless.

    • RobertB says:

      05:30am | 28/02/12

      Julia Gillard is childless, she is an atheist I have no idea about the ex commie but judging by her performance I would say she may well be. It has a ring of truth to it , unlike the some of the things said by Labor about Rudd. Some woman can’t have children, they try very hard to have a baby nestled in their arms but others like Gillard its by choice. We were put on this earth for survival of the species, just like every other living thing. Any parent will tell you children make you realize your not the most important thing in the world, they make you more well balanced. Gillard has chosen her path in life, and that is fine, she has every right to but don’t condemn people because they tell the truth. What her ministers said about Rudd was far more destructive and just plain nasty, it was not one person coming out and saying horrible things , they came out in droves and bombarded us.

    • Nathan says:

      06:18am | 28/02/12

      Has Gillard condemned anyone for having children? And you blatantly judged people who choose not to have children.

      Oh and maybe if Rudd didn’t play the game publicly in the media he would not of been attacked in the media.

    • KH says:

      06:19am | 28/02/12

      What a load of shite.  There are plenty of people out there with children who frankly, should never have had them because they are arseholes, bringing up arsehole kids.

    • Joan says:

      06:44am | 28/02/12

      Durng her Uni days Gillard was member of `Socialist Forum` a group formed by ex-communist party members. While other students were busy studying having fun, Gillard busy writing manifestos .

    • The righteous one says:

      06:55am | 28/02/12

      why did you bother writing 13 lines?  you demonstrated your level of idiocy in the first three

    • acotrel says:

      07:31am | 28/02/12

      @Joan
      Most of the countries in the western world are run by socialist governments, they are not communist.  China is communist and is economically moderately successful.

    • perplexed says:

      07:56am | 28/02/12

      and coming from a man too, because you would completely understand the “maternal” instinct.  But, let’s judge people’s ability to do, well anything!, by how they procreate! yes that makes perfect sense!

    • Cookie Monster says:

      07:58am | 28/02/12

      acotrel says:08:31am | 28/02/12 “China is communist and is economically moderately successful” - of course, while being a major human rights violater. Everytime you mention China on this blog, acotrel, you are always remise in pointing this out.

    • Helen says:

      08:07am | 28/02/12

      RobertB, a lot of people without children know perfectly well they are not the most important thing in the world.
      Unfortunately, I know a number of parents who like to act like having had a child, they have done something worthy of special treatment.
      As for the “well balanced” comment….. oh, that’s hilarious!

    • Govt@FauxCitizen says:

      08:16am | 28/02/12

      @acotrel, you admire china and economy go live there I’m sure there is a brainwashed propagandists job waiting, your OHS quals wont be worth a pinch of shit though.

    • Nathan Explosion says:

      08:28am | 28/02/12

      @RobertB

      Wow, I can’t beleive someone would so publically air their stupidity.

    • NoKidding says:

      09:10am | 28/02/12

      What bunkum.!....This is the type of self rightious comment that childfree get so sick of hearing.

      I have seen some parents become more selfish, destructive and abusive, read up on the child services that are overloaded with children who are neglected.  Having a child doesn’t make you more special or caring and certainly not more well balanced.  Sure there are some good parents but look around, why are schools crying out for parents to take responsibility to teach the kids respect. 

      It sounds like it’s made you self important for doing nothing special and that attitude is not good for society.  Try being humble.

    • Joan says:

      09:28am | 28/02/12

      AcotreL : Most social democratic Euro countries going dead broke, Gillardand her Fair Work can try giving Australian workers Chinese wage to frow the economy - Unions would just love that.

    • rudy says:

      10:13am | 28/02/12

      RobertB - the survival of the species doesn’t need your particular genes to help it. Feel free to be childless, or stop if you’ve already started.

    • Dale says:

      10:25am | 28/02/12

      @Robert L With a burgeoning 7 billion world poulation which has grown from 2 billion in 1950 I doubt the species is struggling for survival.

    • Andy says:

      11:25am | 28/02/12

      Yes we are put on this Earth for survival of the species but that doesn’t mean that everyone who is able should have children. There are already 6 billion people in the world and it hardly needs any more.
      Anyone with half a clue will tell you that the main problem in the world is unsustainable population growth. As for Gillard being an atheist, isn’t that a positive thing? Any keen student of history will tell you that religion has done a great deal more bad than good for the human kind. I won’t vote for Gillard because of her so called ‘reforms’ that put me out of pocket, not because of some personal beliefs that some mistakenly view as character flaws.

    • Andy says:

      11:26am | 28/02/12

      Yes we are put on this Earth for survival of the species but that doesn’t mean that everyone who is able should have children. There are already 6 billion people in the world and it hardly needs any more.
      Anyone with half a clue will tell you that the main problem in the world is unsustainable population growth. As for Gillard being an atheist, isn’t that a positive thing? Any keen student of history will tell you that religion has done a great deal more bad than good for the human kind. I won’t vote for Gillard because of her so called ‘reforms’ that put me out of pocket, not because of some personal beliefs that some mistakenly view as character flaws.

    • Rosie says:

      01:54pm | 28/02/12

      acotrel & others

      Gillard doesn’t care whether she is called childless, atheist and living in sin with boyfriend Tim in the Lodge. Look at her, is she stressing out? Certainly not she gloats and can afford to do so. She should have been voted out after the 2010 for knifing Rudd and recently when given the chance to redeem herself she was voted in not by the people but by her colleagues who have nothing else on their minds but their survival. All Gillard cares about is convincing her colleagues and misleading the public to believe that she remains the most powerful person in this land. Why should we care when all they are doing now is talking to themselves telling themselves what they think we should to hear for that illusive vote come elections. Sadly only a few feel the need to listen to them - the rest have turned off.

    • Bill door says:

      02:37pm | 28/02/12

      Julie Bishop is childless, divorced, currently in a defato relationship. Yet, this is always over looked when attacking Gillard for being unmarried and childless.

    • Emma says:

      05:32am | 28/02/12

      Having a child does not mean you are a more caring or loving person unfortunately. It means you had unprotected sex.

      I find especially women can be terribly bitchy and judgemental amongst each other and dont seem to be able to overcome the gap between career women and mothers (not saying there cant be both).

    • Kika says:

      09:19am | 28/02/12

      I agree Emma.

      I was constantly badgered by a girl in my team who’s life revolves around her kids. She was ALWAYS going “You’re next! You’re next!”. When I’d tell her, no I won’t be next, I’m not ready and I don’t actually really want a baby she would just flip it back and say “Why? No you are just joking”
      “Ah no. I really don’t want one”
      “Yes you do!”
      “No I don’t… actually”.
      Then she sent me pictures of babies from the net saying “How can you resist them?”
      I sent her an email back with a picture of a kitten saying “No I’d prefer a kitten anyday”

    • Emma says:

      10:19am | 28/02/12

      Kika

      I bet that woman has days where should could easily resist her children too grin

    • Bec says:

      01:04pm | 28/02/12

      Absolutely agreed. I’m not able to have children, but even before I found that out I didn’t want them, and any time I said that I’d be told “you’ll change your mind”, “how can you be that selfish”, “what’s wrong with you”. Now I get told my life is a tragedy because I can’t. It’s not a tragedy, my life is completely full, I have an amazing husband and a great career. But it’s a tragic life because I’ll never procreate, at least according to those who have kids. I just can’t win either way!

    • Kika says:

      02:07pm | 28/02/12

      @Bec - Yep apparently to some your not one of the chosen God’s of Australia’s future…. too bad isn’t it…. Pfft!

    • Jezebel says:

      07:35am | 29/02/12

      @ Kika, I had to deal with a colleague like that. She just would not let up despite my polite requests to stop. So I seduced her husband. wink

    • Against the Man says:

      05:39am | 28/02/12

      Gillard being childless isn’t really an issue. She has many flaws and you’ve named 5% of them in the beginning of the article.

      I’m enjoying her latest fib, ‘I assure you the Labor Party is now united.’

    • marley says:

      05:49am | 28/02/12

      That’s not a fib, really;  it’s more wishful (and wistful) thinking.

    • Against the Man says:

      06:42am | 28/02/12

      Well she knows they are not united and yet she is saying so. As someone said on ABC radioover the weekend that Gillard has burnt so many bridges that even if she has changes and is telling the true no one cares or trusts her any more.

    • rudy says:

      09:58am | 28/02/12

      They are united in that they can now be expected to stop attacking each other in public. Other than that, they probably hate each other just as much as people in all political parties.

    • ronny jonny says:

      05:49am | 28/02/12

      I think you are taking an extreme position Tory but I would say that among people I know there are some who cannot have children, which is regarded as a great tragedy and there are some who have chosen not too, which is generally regarded as a bit wierd but none of our business, it’s their choice. I think in general the public think deliberate childlessness is a slightly odd but no big deal.
      The utterings of politicians often have very little relevance to what the community attitude really is.

    • Helen says:

      08:12am | 28/02/12

      “which is generally regarded as a bit wierd but none of our business”

      And I suppose you think you dont make it obvious to the childless person? Its like that joke about marriage…. everyone should get married, so they can be as miserable as the married people.

    • ronny jonny says:

      09:12am | 28/02/12

      I stare at them to make them uncomfortable whenever I can

    • clazberri says:

      09:47am | 28/02/12

      @ ronny jonny (10:12am) - that was funny.

    • Shell says:

      07:03am | 29/02/12

      I agree, we are basicly animals and a lot of our breeding instincts are ingrained in us, as well as it being a social norm for years. Therefore the different can be hard to handle. You don’t want to make the other person feel bad because your not actually against it but you also don’t know what will and won’t insult them because it doesn’t fit with many peoples instincts.

      I love being a mum, one of my friends came and helped me to give birth, is a great Aunty, but she doesn’t think she will ever want kids. And thankfully were close enough that we can respect that, however sometimes I slip up and say “you might change your mind oneday” as were only in our early 20’s, that’s not judgement thats being realistic that things people declair at 23 may not stand at 35. But I try not to say it as demonstrated by a lot of replies here its not acceptable to say it.

      But all of parent hood has been a very instinctive experience for me, so it is hard to fully understand how someone elses instincts can be very different, that doesn’t mean I judge them I just can’t relate.

    • Craig says:

      06:03am | 28/02/12

      It is not about what is said, it is the way it is said.

      I don’t take childless, atheist or ex-communist to be insults. All of them may be factually true and useful pieces of information. At least two of them may be compliments.

      Anyone offended at these terms, without being aware of the context in which they were used has some inner issues of their own to resolve.

      If you think calling someone childless or athiest is an insult that says a lot about your own prejudices.

    • VVS says:

      06:49am | 28/02/12

      “Deliberately barren” is pretty harsh way of putting it though…

      Fantastic phrase though.

    • shrew says:

      12:09pm | 28/02/12

      If you’re talking to potential voters in a pub, you don’t just say “Did you know Julia Gillard is a childless, atheist, ex-communist?” and not expect it to cause damage - except if you’re talking to the Childless Atheist Recovering Communist Collective.

    • Joan says:

      06:06am | 28/02/12

      Rudd hardly bad mouthed Gillard - `childless, atheist, ex-communist` thats who she is- that`s her life choices-  and we know she is also a defacto, a backstabber and liar. That is the person she has created. Nothing to do about 1950`s - anyone who reads this collection of attributes as represented will come to their own conclusion based on their own view about life and how to live a life.

    • Nathan says:

      06:24am | 28/02/12

      this backstabber argument is so outdated now and is predominately pushed by LNP voters and Queenslanders. This was done before the last election and the government managed to get back in then. If people had a problem they had their opportunity to voice it then as we where taken to an election pretty quickly.

    • Against the Man says:

      06:40am | 28/02/12

      Being a backstabber is outdated? Well Nathan looks like you trying to sweep the shameful past under a carpet huh? Lack of values all-round this season from the ALP crew.

    • Helen says:

      08:17am | 28/02/12

      Joan, you’re showing you’re own outdated views in that you’ve put defacto in with backstabber and liar.

      As for backstabber and liar…. why is this such an issue when it comes to Julia, when it seems perfectly acceptable with other politicians. Isnt that what a lot of Australians consider requirements for being a politician?

    • Joan says:

      11:15am | 28/02/12

      Helen; What`s your problem with defacto ? its just a word describing a particular type of relationship its specific to Julia type of relationship , a word still in the dictionary. We are talking about Julia here today and her personal attributes- backstabbing for power sake and lying is not something I respect coming from anyone.

    • Chris L says:

      02:08pm | 28/02/12

      @ATM - Did you miss that Nathan was talking about the argument itself being outdated (due to the election since then which led to Labor keeping government) on purpose or do you just need some help with your comprehension?

      You know, Gillard didn’t literally stab Rudd don’t you?

    • Against the Man says:

      04:11pm | 28/02/12

      @ Chris L - What she did was worse. It affected Rudd, his families and his supporters (which is the bulk of the ALP voting block). The concept of the argument being outdated is the same as denying historic tragedies because it is convenient to do so. I don’t have a comprehension problem because I’m not a ALP supporter.

    • Enkl says:

      06:06am | 28/02/12

      “Declaring yourself happily childless can inspire a similar venom to being an atheist”

      I’d say Abbott gets more venom for being a Catholic than Gillard does for being an atheist.

    • A Dose of Reality says:

      07:59am | 28/02/12

      Not because he is catholic - but because he is an extremist.

    • year of the dragon says:

      08:39am | 28/02/12

      A Dose of Reality says:08:59am | 28/02/12

      “Not because he is catholic - but because he is an extremist. “

      Leaving aside the fact that he is supposed to have no policies, what are these extremist policies of his?

    • Kika says:

      09:22am | 28/02/12

      Deciding for himself that he couldn’t trust qualified medical doctors to assist women with taking a verifiably safe and legal drug because he doesn’t like abortions…. that’s one to start with.

    • Mattb says:

      09:42am | 28/02/12

      “Leaving aside the fact that he is supposed to have no policies, what are these extremist policies of his?”

      He’s got policies, no one doubts the fact that he has policies, go on the liberal website and they are there for all to see. It’s just they are all crap policies. Name one of them that is good and explain why you feel it is, go on I dare you to try YOTD.

      I wouldn’t call his policies “Extremist”, your right. I would call his ideologies misguided though. Misguided because they are based on the teachings of the catholic church, which is based on humanities biggest lie. Sure, beleive this lie if you must, and I will defend your right to do so, but don’t use your belief in this lie to justify your stance in polical issues like TA has done in the past. This is the closest Tony gets to bring classed as ‘extreme’ because he uses his political power to force his belief system onto us.

      If he didn’t do this then he wouldn’t get any of the venom he does for being a catholic..

    • Kika says:

      10:13am | 28/02/12

      @MattB - you must be forgetting his time when he was health minister for Howard…

    • year of the dragon says:

      10:59am | 28/02/12

      Mattb says:

      “He’s got policies, no one doubts the fact that he has policies”

      Don’t be a dickhead Mattb. The ALP’s primary focus of attack on Abbott is that he doesn’t have any policies.

      “It’s just they are all crap policies.”

      So says you. Granted, there’s a couple that I don’t agree with but as a package they beat what this government has to offer hands down.

      “Name one of them that is good and explain why you feel it is, go on I dare you to try YOTD.”

      Their communications policy for starters. It proposes to build a communications backbone at a small fraction of the price of the NBN whilst achieving better outcomes, that is more adaptable to future technology and is cheaper for the end user.

      No doubt you’ll disagree but that’s ok. However, perhaps in doing so you can enlighten us as to how Abbott’s faith has influenced that policy.

      “Misguided because they are based on the teachings of the catholic church, which is based on humanities biggest lie.”

      So which of the LNP’s policies are based on the “teachings of the catholic church”? Because, if any are you can bet I’ll disagree with it as well.

      “don’t use your belief in this lie to justify your stance in polical issues”

      I’m not an RC, I disagree with a lot of what the RC Church has to say. How on earth did you come to the conclusion that I was using their beliefs to justify my “stance in polical issues”?

    • Mattb says:

      11:51am | 28/02/12

      YOTD

      “don’t use your belief in this lie to justify your stance in polical issues”
       
      Just quickly,
      Sorry, I can see how that sounds like it was directed at you but I was talking solely about Tony. I have no idea if you are even religious.

      Gotta catch a plane, will get back to on the rest later today.

    • year of the dragon says:

      01:46pm | 28/02/12

      Mattb says:12:51pm | 28/02/12

      “Gotta catch a plane, will get back to on the rest later today. “

      Don’t forget to pay the voluntary carbon offset.

      SimonFromLakemba says:

      “If you were going to pick a policy which was good, you sure struck the wrong one.”

      I disagree.

      Your first link included the comment that “Once we’ve got our hands on the actual policy document, we’ll offer a more thorough analysis.”. So, your first rebuttal included a declaration that they’d not even read the policy.

      The second also concluded that the coalition’s policy was light on detail – hardly surprising for a coalition still two years out from an election. Perhaps you are suggesting that they do as the ALP do and simply lie.

      The third article titled “industry-blasts-coalition-broadband-policy” includes the following “Telstra declined to comment”, “Vodafone Hutchison Australia also declined to comment” amd “iiNet provided no statement”.

      Your fourth include the following: “some analysts said that Liberal’s plan could potentially be safer, more flexible and “give more bang for your buck” than the National Broadband Network”; “IBRS’s Guy Cranswick and Ovum’s David Kennedy said that a lack of market demand, uncertainty and complexity in the telecommunications market meant that the Liberal’s policy could come out trumps” and “it “was hard to tell” which one would be best for the long term and that both policies had advantages and disadvantages”; “economic volatility, uncertainty and a lack of demand for 100Mbps internet may mean that the Labor Government’s plan will deliver very little (or no) return on investment”; “a few sites, like health, media and education relied on super-fast broadband, this may not be the case for all Australian businesses”.

      The fifth was written by a guy who wears his anti-conservative antagonism on his sleeve and has written articles openly attacking conservatives http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/320212

      And the sixth justifies the exorbitant expense for little payback on the basis that “everything is getting more expensive”.

      The coalition’s policy far more closely resembles a true infrastructure project. It builds the infrastructure back-bone and enables users to connect to it as they wish, in the manner they wish and at their expense – just like water, sewage, electricity, roads and so on.

      However, I’m sure that the “lady isn’t for turning” and so, rather than go around this merry-go-round with you and find six credible links that support my view I will agree to disagree.

    • Mattb says:

      02:40pm | 28/02/12

      YOTD

      “Gotta catch a plane, will get back to on the rest later today. “

      “Don’t forget to pay the voluntary carbon offset.”

      Not that I understand what your getting at here but the company I work for organizes and pays for my flights so I’m not sure if the offset option is chosen. I’ll ask if it makes you happy.

      “He’s got policies, no one doubts the fact that he has policies”

      Don’t be a dickhead Mattb. The ALP’s primary focus of attack on Abbott is that he doesn’t have any policies.”

      The ALP’s primary focus of attack on Abbott is none of my business, I agreed with you that he does have policies, I just stated that they are shit ones, got nothing to do with the ALP.

      Your correct Abbott’s faith hasn’t influence the coalitions communications policy. Abbott’s downright ignorance of the needs of Australian business and regional areas for reliable high speed broadband is his influence on this policy.

      I find it funny also how the liberal party calls the NBN a white elephant yet at the same time liberal and national party MP’s are constantly asking the government when it’s going to come to their electorates!. Seems to me they want to make sure it’s in the electorate before the next election.

      “So which of the LNP’s policies are based on the “teachings of the catholic church”? Because, if any are you can bet I’ll disagree with it as well.”

      I think if you go back up and read my post again you’ll find that I didn’t say it was his policies so much, rather his ‘ideologies’, that have catholic influences.
      His views on abortion that have influenced his decisions whilst health minister, his views on gay marriage and his rather confusing views on climate change that sees him get advise on the subject from Cardinal George Pell just to name a few.

    • year of the dragon says:

      03:31pm | 28/02/12

      Mattb says:
      03:40pm | 28/02/12

      “Not that I understand what your getting at here”

      As a supporter of carbon pricing, presumably you have been voluntarily paying this for years now.

      “but the company I work for organizes and pays for my flights so I’m not sure if the offset option is chosen.”

      I’m sure that you could pay it yourself – Gaia would still take your money.

      ”yet at the same time liberal and national party MP’s are constantly asking the government when it’s going to come to their electorates”

      Which coalition MPs in particular?

      “I think if you go back up and read my post again you’ll find that I didn’t say it was his policies so much, rather his ‘ideologies’, that have catholic influences.”

      His “ideologies” only matter if they influence policy. If his personal beliefs, philosophies or ideologies don’t influence policy then so what?

      “ sees him get advise on the subject from Cardinal George Pell just to name a few”

      Got any way of backing this claim up?

    • M says:

      06:09am | 28/02/12

      I’d love to know how being a childless athiest ex commie has any bearing on how she runs the country.

      I find the ex xommie thing particularly hilarious, like no one ever signed up to the communist party when they went to uni.

    • John says:

      06:23am | 28/02/12

      I seen those reds running around the university dragging the corpse of Lenin and worshiping at the self made shrines of Trotsky and Stalin. They are clearly mentally insane that should be put in a mental asylum instead instead of an educational one.

    • Bill says:

      06:33am | 28/02/12

      I was never so stupid and ignorant as to sign up with any of the idiotic leftwing organisations when I was at uni.

      What’s your excuse, m?

    • wakeuppls says:

      06:50am | 28/02/12

      If the communist party is so popular at universities, that says a lot about the grade and bias of university staff and teachings.

      In laymans terms, most programs except those in the sciences and engineering, are full to the brim with leftist propaganda and commie economics.

    • M says:

      07:42am | 28/02/12

      I signed up to the communist party in uni because the chick manning the stalls and handing out flyers was a total babe. I was thoroughly disillusioned when I found out they were really just a bunch of fat angry nerds.

    • A Dose of Reality says:

      07:57am | 28/02/12

      Asa clever man once said:

      “he who is not a socialist when under 30 has no soul, he who is a socialist after 30 has no mind”

      People grow up, you know.  Someone who has the same ideas on everything in their 40’s as they did in their 20’s is someone who has an unfortunate idealogical millstone - and is incapable of thought.

    • Cynicised says:

      09:56am | 28/02/12

      To quote George Bernard Shaw ““If at age 20 you are not a Communist then you have no heart. If at age 30 you are not a Capitalist then you have no brains.”  Just goes to show that Ms Gillard is both compassionate AND smart.

    • James1 says:

      10:06am | 28/02/12

      So much hate for Keith Windscuttle in this thread.  As an ex-communism, I’m sure he is terrified.  He and Julia Gillard are clearly both thought criminals.

    • myviewto says:

      10:12am | 28/02/12

      dose of reality

      I never dared to be radical when young
      For fear it would make me conservative when old.
      Robert Frost

      A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned to walk forward.
      Franklin D. Roosevelt

      A conservative is a man who believes that nothing should be done for the first time.
      Alfred E. Wiggam

      A conservative is a man who sits and thinks, mostly sits.
      Woodrow Wilson

      The radical of one century is the conservative of the next. The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them.
      Mark Twain

    • Anubis says:

      10:27am | 28/02/12

      @ Cynicised - How do you come to that conclusion? J Gillard’s comment that she was a member of the Fabian Society only while at Uni has been proven to be another lie of hers. She was an active member and committee participant of the FAbian Society up to at least 2002. At this stage it became politically inconvenient for her to remain a paid up, and active, participant in the Socialist forum. She may have given up her membership but she still enshrines all their beliefs. This is particularly evident in her Social Engineering policies and her “take from the rich and give to the poor” policies. What she is really doin gis undermining those that create the wealth in society in order to give it to those that do not participate. She is effectively destroying aspirations as the more you earn the greater you contribute. The less you earn the more she will take from the creators to give to you. These are policies that destroy initiative and the desire to better yourself and, in the long run, will create a society that becomes stagnant. Those that strive to acheive have all incentive to achieve removed from them. Those that refuse to participate get rewarded for non-participation.

    • Cynicised says:

      11:48am | 28/02/12

      Anubis, guess what, I have absolutely no interest or concerns re Ms Gillard’s previous affiliations. I also have no problem re the sharing of our country’s bounty with the less fortunate, ie “take from the rich and give to the poor” Robin Hood policies. That does no make me a socialist, nor a communist by the way. It merely means that I live in a country with a capitalist economy,  and don’t want it to change, but like our PM, I have a social conscience. I am heartily fed up every time a socially just policy is announced conservatives jump up and down having little hissy fits labeling them “socialist”. I suggest you look up what the term actually means in the dictionary, especially in regard to the “means of production”.

      Supporting capitalism as an economic structure does not mean that I have to accept nor excuse the inequities the system produces when governments are capable of redressing the imbalance to some extent by helping to give our disadvantaged a leg up by responsible and compassionate programs. If my taxes are used to do so, fine. Nor do I have to support the excesses of greed that some people equate with supporting business and that still doesn’t make me nor Julia either a socialist nor a communist.

    • year of the dragon says:

      03:41pm | 28/02/12

      Cynicised says:12:48pm | 28/02/12

      “I also have no problem re the sharing of our country’s bounty with the less fortunate, ie “take from the rich and give to the poor” Robin Hood policies.”

      If you are suggesting that revenue should be raised via tax to develop public infrastructure and to provide a safety net for the genuinely needy and disenfranchised in our society, then no it doesn’t. If you are talking about a distribution of wealth (for instance, the carbon tax), then that is socialism.

    • Chris L says:

      04:19pm | 28/02/12

      “If you are talking about a distribution of wealth…. then that is socialism” - Sounds more like the middle class welfare the Coalition brought into play. Darned Liberal party socialists!

    • year of the dragon says:

      04:34pm | 28/02/12

      Chris L says:05:19pm | 28/02/12

      “Sounds more like the middle class welfare the Coalition brought into play.”

      Perhaps: depends on what you believe their motivation was I guess. For me, middle class welfare is more pork-barrelling than socialism.

    • A Dose of Reality says:

      05:38pm | 28/02/12

      Cynicised says: 10:56am | 28/02/12

      To quote George Bernard Shaw ““If at age 20 you are not a Communist then you have no heart. If at age 30 you are not a Capitalist then you have no brains.”

      Thank you, GBS! of course - my apologies to his legacy My understanding was near the point - but at the time could not remember the quote quite correctly - nor the author.

      Thanks again for the reminder

    • Bertrand says:

      07:27pm | 28/02/12

      @year of the dragon - “If you are talking about a distribution of wealth (for instance, the carbon tax), then that is socialism.”

      Putting a price on pollution isn’t socialism, all it is doing is putting a price marker on the hidden costs of that pollution. Without this price marker large polluters are able to externalise these costs (ie. pass them on to society). In effect they are currently receiving a hidden subsidy, as they are able to avoid including a very real cost of production into their costings.

      Using revenue from that price marker to reduce income taxes is, again, not socialism. No wealth is be redistributed. What is being changed is the way taxes are collected. This is actually a more efficient way of collecting tax, as taxes operate as a disincentive for behaviour - people try to avoid actions that will be taxed. The current tax free threshold is one of the reasons people on welfare have a disincentive to rejoin the workforce. As this threshold will be significantly increased, people on low incomes have more incentive to get more work.

      It makes much more sense to reduce the tax burden placed on incomes (ie. taxing people for working) and to increase the tax burden placed on polluters (ie. taxing companies for polluting). Why tax positive behaviours and not tax negative behaviours?

      Likewise, the fixed-price of carbon will shift to a market-based price in a few years. Using markets to reduce pollution is based much more on capitalist ideology than the coaliton’s policy, which is all about direct government intervention through subsidies.

      Under the coalition’s proposal, tax revenues will be used to provide subsidies to large corporations in order to encourage them to reduce their pollution. This is a direct redistribution of wealth, as it takes tax revenues collected and gives them directly to polluters as subsidies.

      I’m sorry, but I have very little time for the argument that a market based approach to reducing pollution is somehow more ‘socialist’ than a system that is based on the government using tax revenues to directly fund big polluters.

      The fact is, failure to start making the transition to a low carbon economy now is going to end up costing us more in the long run, as we will have to make more rapid changes in less time. Making these changes now will come at some cost, but it will be a lower cost now than if we leave it until later.

      Feel free to support either policy proposal on the table, but at least be honest in the way you describe them.

    • Bertrand says:

      07:38pm | 28/02/12

      Sorry.. I did make a false assertion in that last comment.

      Money is being redistributed because the carbon tax isn’t just being used to decrease income taxes, it is going to lead to an increase also in some family payments and pensions.

      So there is some redistribution of wealth.

      However, it is still far less than under the coalition policy, and the entire model is still less socialistic as it relies on market mechanisms and not direct government action.

    • Cynicised says:

      09:20pm | 28/02/12

      It’s fascinating and somewhat disturbing to me that the idea of a carbon price is equated by some to a “redistribution of wealth” and therefore a socialist policy. Let us be absolutely clear that it isn’t a wealth redistribution policy and hence the idea of it being socialist is absurd.

      A carbon price is meant to discourage the greatest polluters amongst our industries from continuing to pollute based upon the amount of carbon their industry contributes to our ecology. It is  an unfortunate fact that those industries affected will pass on the effects of such a policy to their customers ie electricity generation. However, to call such quintessentially capitalistic behaviour “socialist” is laughable. You might as well call banks socialist! LOL! 

      Whether this policy is effective in reducing carbon emissions is yet to be determined. I am sceptical that it will ultimately have any positive benefit ecologically, and would much have preferred the  Emissions Trading Scheme so maligned and ultimately foregone by the Rudd government. It seems we have inherited the less logical of the alternatives, however neither is a true “wealth redistribution” and to label them so is both dishonest and counterproductive.

      That said, I have no issues with an attempt by our government to get our heavily polluting industries to become globally conscious. Whether AGW is fact or fiction, cleaning up our own backyard cannot be a bad thing ultimately. The cost of such a positive program can be easily borne by wealthy countries such as ours. Please don’t bore me with economic doomsaying re our wealth now either. We are, and continue to be one of the top 20 wealthiest countries in the world. Whether that wealth equates to jobs is another matter, but it certainly pertains to our standard of living as attested by our per capita GDP.

    • year of the dragon says:

      07:00am | 29/02/12

      Bertrand says: 08:38pm | 28/02/12

      “Sorry.. I did make a false assertion in that last comment.
      Money is being redistributed because the carbon tax isn’t just being used to decrease income taxes, it is going to lead to an increase also in some family payments and pensions.”

      And that is my point in regards to this particular form of tax. Warmists should be furious that their cause has been hijacked in this manner.

      As I don’t support either proposal I’ll not argue whether one has more merit than the other.

      Cynicised says: 10:20pm | 28/02/12

      “It’s fascinating and somewhat disturbing to me that the idea of a carbon price is equated by some to a “redistribution of wealth” and therefore a socialist policy.”

      I know. What a pity that this government’s dishonesty is so great that not only did they mislead those that don’t favour a price on carbon but also, in the manner in which they have structured the scheme, those that would like to reduce carbon emissions.

      “A carbon price is meant to discourage the greatest polluters amongst our industries from continuing to pollute”

      I know, I know. Only the Labor party could frame it otherwise.

      “Whether this policy is effective in reducing carbon emissions is yet to be determined. I am sceptical that it will ultimately have any positive benefit ecologically”

      “That said, I have no issues with an attempt by our government to get our heavily polluting industries to become globally conscious.”

      I wish they would to. However, they’re not and we have to live with it until 2013.

    • iansand says:

      06:15am | 28/02/12

      It is the politicisation of an issue that is completely irrelevant to competence to govern.

    • TimB says:

      06:52am | 28/02/12

      A bit like the constant attacks on Abbott simply because he’s catholic, wouldn’t you say?

    • M says:

      07:44am | 28/02/12

      The difference is Abbott is a raving lunatic with a moralist bent.

    • A Dose of Reality says:

      07:51am | 28/02/12

      Not really -

      abbott is an extremist, and will push his superstitious views on the rest of us. 

      Gillard is simply an atheist - therefore there are no superstitions to inflict on society.

      It’s a simple difference unless you choose not to see it.

    • iansand says:

      08:04am | 28/02/12

      You will not regain your 4th speaker spot until you learn about relevance.

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      08:10am | 28/02/12

      The only one that’s worth a pinch of salt would the ex commie jibe, same as Abbott and Pell.

    • TimB says:

      08:42am | 28/02/12

      “The difference is Abbott is a raving lunatic with a moralist bent. “

      “abbott is an extremist, and will push his superstitious views on the rest of us.  “

      Proof?

      I’ve asked this question many times, and I have yet to get an answer- Exactly what do you think Abbott is going to do if he comes in? Force us all to church every Sunday? Ban condoms? Criminalise sex outside of marraige?

      The anti-catholic hysteria expressed here is truly something to behold.

      “Gillard is simply an atheist - therefore there are no superstitions to inflict on society.”

      No, but if Gillard was of a militant atheist bent (not saying she is, but lets apply your ‘nightmare scenario’ logic to Gillard as equally as you do Abbott), she could go and crush anyone who dared follow a religion.

      Abbott’s made his choices, Gillard has made hers. More power to both of them. Mysteriously though, whilst some people assume that Abbott wants to inflict his personal choices on others,  yet they champion Gillard for hers.


      PS. Relevance, iansand? That’s that thing you’re struggling for, right? I can tell you now, you aren’t going to find it hiding in your schoolboy fantasies.

    • Kika says:

      09:10am | 28/02/12

      @TimB - Not at all. Tony has shown time and time again that he believes that he can enforce his worldview and position about things. Julia has never once made a policy which enforces her own personal beliefs on atheism nor being childless.

      Let’s have a look, shall we.

      1) When Tony was health minister he decided to block RU486 from being administered by qualified, professional doctors in assisting women with terminations. Now Tony had no evidence that RU486 was any worse off for women than a surgical procedure. He plainly banned it because he doesn’t like abortion and was scared that if the the pill was available all us nasty women would be off aborting children left right and centre. The fact is RU486 when used under the close watch of a doctor is safer and less invasive and less likely to cause long term damage than a curette. He had this information yet vetoed it because of his own personal beliefs about it.

      2) Even though he vetoed RU486 he goes on to have said
      ““The problem is backyard miscarriages if unscrupulous doctors prescribe these drugs for desperate women. “

      - No sht. And backyard abortions will occur if surgical ones are banned too.

      3) In discussing his view on asylum seekers he brought his version of Catholicism to the table with

      ““…Jesus didn’t say yes to everyone. I mean Jesus knew that there was a place for everything and it is not necessarily everyone’s place to come to Australia.”

      So he thinks Jesus would send the boats back, even though he fed the 5000 and helped the Samaritan women even though he had no right to.  Ok Tony.

      4) His position on whether there were gay people amongst a Catholic congregation..

      ““…if you’d asked me for advice I would have said to have – adopt a sort of “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy about all of these things…”

      5) On a National Celibacy Program

      ““I think that it’s very important that we empower people to reject this kind of rampant sensuality.”

      (Even though he had girlfriends before marriage)

      6) On women’s sexuality and rights

      “” I think there does need to be give and take on both sides, and this idea that sex is kind of a woman’s right to absolutely withhold, just as the idea that sex is a man’s right to demand I think they are both they both need to be moderated, so to speak”


      ****

      Show me where Gillard has used her atheism to set policy agenda? There still are chaplains in state schools and churches still have tax exempt status…. So give me where Julia has enforced her beliefs on the rest of us. Please.

    • M says:

      09:24am | 28/02/12

      I think it’d be awesome if the militant athiests banned religion by the way. Lions need feeding and all that.

    • Kika says:

      09:40am | 28/02/12

      @M - Yeah she could easily pass a bill to remove religious organisations tax exempt status. Think of the tax revenue generated from Hillsong. They are a mega international conglomerate. No need for carbon tax nor the mining tax. TAX ALL MEGA CHURCHES!

    • Blind Freddy says:

      09:46am | 28/02/12

      @TimB

      LOL. Pwned by Kika and M.

    • TimB says:

      10:02am | 28/02/12

      “Julia has never once made a policy which enforces her own personal beliefs on atheism nor being childless”

      What about her beliefs on gay marraige? You’re happy to bag Abbott over that, why not Julia? Double standards?

      As to the rest of your points:


      1. The abortion pill issue- Possibly the only (partial) hit you have on him. Even then you have to reach:

      “He plainly banned it because he doesn’t like abortion and was scared that if the the pill was available all us nasty women would be off aborting children left right and centre.”

      Then why didn’t he ban abortion completely? As I understand it he’s pledged not to touch the issue nor has he ever tried. This decision was specific to one paticular pill, not an issue as a whole.


      2. Abortions in general.

      ” No sht. And backyard abortions will occur if surgical ones are banned too. “

      Except he’s explicitly come out and said he won’t ban abortions.Swing and a miss.


      3. Jesus on Asylumn seekers

      Nice bit of out of context quoting there Kika. That was a response to a question on Q&A,:

      “A web question from Brenton Anthony in Canberra: When it comes to asylum seekers, what would Jesus do?”

      Tony was asked what Jesus thought. He answered accordingly. He wasn’t using religion as justification for his stance.. There’s many good, logical, non-religious reasons for the Coalition’s policy on Asylum seekers.


      4. Thoughts on gay people in a catholic congregation.

      This has what to do with the rest of the country exactly? Is Tony basing his policy on how many gay people there are in the church? Next.


      5. “““I think that it’s very important that we empower people to reject this kind of rampant sensuality.”

      He supports giving people choices. Big deal. Still no effect on policy or the nation. Next.


      6. On women’s sexuality and rights

      Seems to me he’s promoting an equal balance between the sexes there. Again you’ll notice that yet again he hasn’t mentioned a policy that he’s going to change or bring in to enforce his views.


      So from 6 points you’ve given me one, just ONE where he’s actually attempted to affect policy. And that instance was due to his stance on one paticular drug rather than the entire broader issue as you attempt to insinuate.

      And tell me, even if that drug had been banned, would it have had a massive impact on Australia? I highly doubt it.

      If that’s all you’ve got Kika, then I fail to see the reason for the rampant fear.

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      10:17am | 28/02/12

      Abbott is Santorum light, only difference is Abbott doesn’t have a party full of like minded people.

      http://cathnews.acu.edu.au/410/2.php

    • TimB says:

      10:17am | 28/02/12

      @ M, you miss the point. I’m not arguing about whether Tony’s views are right or wrong.

      I’m asking what evidence is there to show that he’s going to inflict all of those views on us, and convert Australia to some dark age catholic theocracy. Because that’s what you lot seem so petrified about, and quite frankly such a view is insane IMO.

      For the record I don’t agree with a lot of Tony’s personal religious views either. Hell I’m not even religious myself. But until I see evidence that he intends to force all of this upon us, then I will characterise views such as yours and Kika’s as hysterical at best, bigoted at worst.

      Also Kika:

      “Show me where Gillard has used her atheism to set policy agenda? There still are chaplains in state schools and churches still have tax exempt status…. So give me where Julia has enforced her beliefs on the rest of us. “

      Never said she had. And I don;t expect her to. I agree that Gillard shouldn’t be targeted just because she’s an atheist, but by the same token Tony should not be targeted for purely for his beliefs either.

      Finally regarding tax- free status for churches- Agree with reservations. I believe there is a requirement (or a proposal for same, can’t remember) for a church to prove they’re providing a benefit to the community.

      The expenses spent on such community benefits should be tax deductable. The rest should be taxed.

      PS. @ Blind Freddy- In your dreams.

    • Mick says:

      10:18am | 28/02/12

      And so the sight of TimB thrashing begins

      pwned to the full.

    • M says:

      10:31am | 28/02/12

      @ Kika, don’t start me on Hillsong. Biggest money laundering organisation in Western Sydney atm.

    • M says:

      10:42am | 28/02/12

      @ TimB, I didn’t miss the point. You asked for proof to my ascertation that Abbott is a lunatic Christian with a moralist bent. I gave it. Discussion closed.

    • Kika says:

      11:04am | 28/02/12

      @TImB -

      “Then why didn’t he ban abortion completely? As I understand it he’s pledged not to touch the issue nor has he ever tried. This decision was specific to one paticular pill, not an issue as a whole”

      AND lastly…

      “And tell me, even if that drug had been banned, would it have had a massive impact on Australia? I highly doubt it”

      Well given it WAS banned and still IS banned how can you say whether or not it would have made an impact or not?  You can’t quantify an unquantifiable measure. Would it have made an impact? Maybe. All medical information says RU486 reduces scarring and damage caused by a curette and therefore reduces long term complications. So who knows?

       

      Curettes are already legal. To ban them as health minister he would have had to bring it to parliament and get them to make a conscious vote or something about repealing the laws on them. No curettes aren’t only used for terminations. They are also used when a woman miscarries a child and they need to remove the remaining tissue from her womb to prevent infections and other complications and other sorts of matters.

      When RU486 he had all authority to simply veto it, and he did.  If he actually thought about the drug he would have had all information available to him to say that it is safer than a curette. His justification for vetoing it had nothing to do with the actual drug, but because of his moral position on terminations in general.

      RE: GAY MARRIAGE

      - Julia is against it because her party is against it. She’s never come out saying that it’s morally reprehensible or is threatened by gay people. Tony has.  Julia is always criticised about her position on this time and time again on this blog because of the hypocrisy about her stance on marriage given she’s not even married herself.

    • TimB says:

      11:11am | 28/02/12

      @ M, my apologies, I lumped you in with the poster below you who claimed that Abbott would ‘push his views on all of us’.

      Characterisation of Abbott’s beliefs aside (I think ‘loony’ is somewhat harsh, but whatever), as long as you’re not trying to claim Abbott’s religion is going to have a drastic negative affect on policy, we have no real disagreement.

      If you do think that though, then see my post to Kika.

    • TimB says:

      11:40am | 28/02/12

      “Well given it WAS banned and still IS banned how can you say whether or not it would have made an impact or not?”

      You are quite wrong Kika. It *WAS* banned in 1996 but is now legal as a result of a bill that came trhough parliament, and the veto power being removed from the Health Minister (at the time, Tony Abbott). 

      Given that:

      A) I didn’t see any massive difference in the country between when it was banned and when it wasn’t,

      B) You still seem to be under the impression that it IS banned and have also clearly seen no massive changes to indicate that the opposite is in fact the case,

      I think I can safely say that the status of the drug and Tony’s stance on it are of minimal impact to Australians as a whole.

      Like I said if this is the *only* policy example you’ve got, then I would say that your fear is unjustified.

    • M says:

      12:28pm | 28/02/12

      @ TimB, he already forced his views on the Australian public when he banned RU486.

    • TimB says:

      12:56pm | 28/02/12

      @ M, again see my response to Kika on that one. This was hardly a country destroying move.

      If that’s the best you’ve got, then your fear is unjustified.

      PS. Abbott didn’t ban the drug, it was already banned. He just tried (and failed) to stop the ban being lifted.

    • Jet says:

      01:34pm | 28/02/12

      Kika “On women’s sexuality and rights I think there does need to be give and take on both sides, and this idea that sex is kind of a woman’s right to absolutely withhold, just as the idea that sex is a man’s right to demand I think they are both they both need to be moderated, so to speak”

      I hope that while you’re married, when your husband wants a bit of nookie and you really are feeling tired and can’t be bothered that you don’t give-in just to please him - because then you are living what Abbott is talking about.

    • Kika says:

      01:55pm | 28/02/12

      @Jet - I am married and no, I don’t! I’m not like most Aussie women who fake it for the sake of their marriage.

    • Boo says:

      05:22am | 29/02/12

      @M - RU486 is not banned in Australia.

    • gobsmackski says:

      06:36am | 28/02/12

      At least there is no prospect of a political dynasty - eg the North Korean Kims, the Syrian Assads or the American Bushes.

    • Emma says:

      06:47am | 28/02/12

      OMG the thought alone give me goosebumbs - and not in a good way.

      Why being related to someone qualifies you for anything is a mystery to me.

    • Kitty says:

      02:58pm | 28/02/12

      Agree Emma. Like the Brittish Royal Family. What have they ever done to justify the Lavish life they lead.

    • nihonin says:

      06:45am | 28/02/12

      Interesting isn’t it, the same members of a certain party who hurl insults on a personal level at the leader of the opposite party, also hurl insults on a personal amongst themselves about each other.  When the chips are down.

    • Flipside says:

      06:46am | 28/02/12

      I dislike this article but not for why you’d think.

      The link el Toro is upset about was part of a Get Rudd campaign, and was pumped by Kate Ellis. Thats ‘Kate’ Ellis, whose name is Kate, and has been known to be female in public, and has been rumoured to have been female with the editor of this website… and to my brief research is also unmarried and yet to be kid-ed. None of which I care about.
      But - how dare she use such language?! And how dare you not call her on it. Had she not done so, there would be nothing to talk about.
      ...see what I did there?
      Had *she*, being a she, not played this particular card - aimed at other shes just as surely as those world vision ads were aimed at people who *will* find the following images distressing - who’d give a rats about a sarcastic conversation between a dude who was knifed and the leader of one of the groups supporting his knifer?
      “Hey… great choice mate. You catholic? Dislike birth control? Free market and all that? The person you picked is atheist, childless & ex-communist. Onya.”
      The end.
      Ms Ellis was only outraged to the extent that publicly claiming to be outraged would hurt her target… and Tory… has… totally missed it. As my mate Wood would say - C’mon! Lift!

    • Joanne Bennett says:

      06:52am | 28/02/12

      RobertB: “We were put on this earth for survival of the species, just like every other living thing”.  There are 7 billion of us, so most of us could stop breeding and the species would survive.  The fact there are 7 billion of us means that other species survival is threatened.  So I really don’t see your point.  The fact that I see that I am not the most important thing on earth, makes me not have children.  From my earliest memories of watching nature documentaries in the 1970s, I realised how selfish it would be for someone like me to have children.  Humans were encroaching on animal habitats back then, so I could not see how me having children would ever be anything other than selfish.  When I reached adulthood and saw all my friends have children, because they thought a poor little baby should be responsible for their happiness, the dye was well and truly set.  I don’t know a single person with a child who is any less selfish than the handful of childless people I know.  Not saying that the childless are better - they just seem happier and have the time to think about many other people and issues.  No judgement here - just rational observation on what is.  Parents simply don’t have the time to think of others outside their family unit.  I understand and accept it.

    • clazberri says:

      10:03am | 28/02/12

      Great comment, Joanne Bennett.

    • Emmy says:

      06:54am | 28/02/12

      Has anyone thought that Gillard maybe proud of being childless, an atheist and an ex Commie. After all they are choices she made for herself and being an intelligent person one would have to presume she does not have a problem being called these things. Maybe it is the people writing stories about all this who are the ones belittling her and peeving her off.

    • NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

      07:03am | 28/02/12

      Hi Tory,

      When it comes to discussing this particular topic, I must say that “what a perfect timing” as well. Some Americans within the Republican Party in the USA, especially feel that it is very much against God’ plan to use birth control.  Sadly enough, all these characters happen to be men!  It only made me laugh and think at the same time.  Because I truly believe that at this day and age, starting a family should ultimately be a woman’s decision, only!

      Lets also not forget the power of the Religious Right Movement! Is it because of our religion and fear of God that we all should make very important decisions such as having babies or using birth control. One more thing also FYI, communism is dead and long live democracy.  What gets to most people with very conservative attitudes is that, “women should not be given so much power in the first place”.  Which I find totally ridiculous to begin with.  I just think why bother with women’s liberation, if this is the actual shape of things to come?

      I am sure that being a mother is a great feeling and there is nothing like it.  However, there is an enormous amount of sweat and tears, without exaggeration!  But when I asked the women of generations before us, “if they had a choice to decide the actual number of kids or no kids” they all said “if they had to do all over again, surely they would want a choice and say in the number of kids they ultimately would have wanted back in those days.

      I totally believe that everyone should only have children when they are financially and emotionally ready for it. Because there happens to be a lot of neglected, hungry and unwanted kids in our world and our society already.  A religious belief should never dictate and reflect, on how we live our lives as women when it comes to a life with or without children.

      Because there is so much more to life than having babies, such as getting a good education, life experience as well as reaching a certain kind of maturity that we ultimately have the power to decide and choose our own destinies! Kind regards to your editors.

    • Kika says:

      09:38am | 28/02/12

      “Because I truly believe that at this day and age, starting a family should ultimately be a woman’s decision, only!”
      Why should it be the woman’s choice only? You are assuming all men want to become fathers. What if they don’t? What if they aren’t ready to? So I can just walk up to my husband and tell him “HEY IM NOT GETTING YOUNGER YOU PROMISED LAST YEAR TIME TO GIVE IT UP MISTER!”

      Do I have this right?

      Procreating is both a male and female decision. They can both choose to use contraception. Men are equal partners in creating children. This idea that having children is solely a woman’s problem is the reason why men are jipped by the Courts when the marriage falls apart. “Why do you need the kids? You are just the father!”

    • Testfest says:

      10:11am | 28/02/12

      “Because I truly believe that at this day and age, starting a family should ultimately be a woman’s decision, only!”

      Are you kidding me? Only the woman gets to decide? Wow. You don’t think that something as profoundly life altering as having kids would ideally be best undertaken by two people who have discussed it and made the decision together?

      Sorry, I guess I am forgetting my place. As a male, clearly I can only be useful as a sperm donor and a walking ATM. Any opinions I might have on children or parenting are obviously to be ignored or treated with contempt. After all, only a woman could possibly know anything about children…

    • NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

      09:44pm | 28/02/12

      Hi there,

      Thanks once again for your replies! Well, I don’t really know why you are upset at all!  I would like to say to men especially, “when and if you can physically carry a baby for nine months and actually give birth, then you might be able to see it from our point of view”. And see if you would like to volunteer for this very difficult task? 

      Until then just to some reading, such as our bodies & ourselves! I also wanted to say who said that life was fair, anyway? Learn to like yourselves and accept who you really are, no matter what gender you happen to be or where you might actually come from!

      Surely at this day & age, as women we all know that having a baby and getting married are not the ultimate dream and the key to ultimate happiness.  We do have other options and choices. FYI.Kind regards.

    • onlooker says:

      07:20am | 28/02/12

      She is childless Tory and an Atheist,  many woman want children badly that is why ivf is so popular. But we should not pretend she has children should we? Your choices in life help to make you the person you are. I won’t comment on the Commie bit because I have no idea if she is or not.

    • Kika says:

      08:52am | 28/02/12

      But isn’t it a case of double standard? A childless man isn’t harangued about being without children and this isn’t even questioned about their capabilities to do their job.

    • onlooker says:

      11:10am | 28/02/12

      Oh no its not, Julia Gillards choices made her PM!! It just a matter of choosing what path in life you want. She has done well with her life and her choices are fine for her. I probably didn’t type that clearly. Today women can be whatever they want, you just have to be dedicated enough to reach out and grab it But in saying that, there are many woman who choose to have children and they deserve a pat on the back too, it sometimes can be a very hard job and its unpaid. Some women are superhuman they can manage both, they really deserve an award

    • Al says:

      07:26am | 28/02/12

      “childless, atheist, ex-Communist” - not particularly a nice thing to say but true nonetheless.
      Childless - Do you see any child or even a mention of a child born previously, no.
      Atheist - She herself has confirmed this.
      Ex-Communist - She was a member of the communist party during her university days so yes, she is an ex-communist.
      I am not sure why the truth is viewed as an insult?
      If someone said she can’t do the job because she is a ‘childless, atheist, ex-communist’ that would be different as her ability to do the job has nothing to do with Julia being a ‘childless, atheist, ex-communist’, but that was not what was reportedley said by Rudd, just that he refered to her as a ‘childless, atheist, ex-communist’, which is true.

    • Ben says:

      10:46am | 28/02/12

      If a political opponent of Obama called him a “black foreign-born socialist”, by your reasoning there is nothing wrong with that because he is all three.

    • Al says:

      12:09pm | 28/02/12

      Ben - correct, I have no issues with the truth (even if it sounds harsh).
      Thats why I have no problem admitting I am a foreign born, pro-personal responsibility, anti-social and what some would term a ‘bastard’ (even though my parents were married) who is following my own personal path, even when contrary to the ‘accepted’ path by society.

    • yeah, right, whatever says:

      12:20pm | 28/02/12

      Actually I don’t think she was a member of the Communist Party.  Being a member of a “socialist left” organisation is not necessarily a communist. 

      It’s like saying all “Christians” are the same when there are different denominations.

    • Al says:

      01:51pm | 28/02/12

      yeah, right, whatever - In many aspects all Christians are the same, the differences are disagreements on interpretation but all require a belief that Jesus was the son of God and that the only way to be ‘saved’ is through him.
      Its like saying all apples aren’t apples as they are different species.

    • Linda M says:

      07:34am | 28/02/12

      With the world population at 7 billion she should be applauded for choosing not to have children.

    • stephen says:

      08:11am | 28/02/12

      I’d like to applaud Barnaby Joyce.

    • john says:

      07:50am | 28/02/12

      its nice that she chose to be barren. I mean who would like to have her as a mum.  its nice when we all can agree. as a pm she can be voted out, being a mum is for life. I support her decision to remain ‘barren’.

    • Vicki PS says:

      11:29am | 28/02/12

      Some people are just lousy judges of character, it seems.  One of the things I find most appealing about Julia is her genuineness.  Many of her facial expressions remind me a lot of my own Mum and grandmother, and women of their generation.  Unless you are a supremely accomplished actor, you can’t fake the kinds of everyday feelings that show on Ms Gillard’s face, for example the smiles of sympathy in adversity shown when she spoke with victims of last year’s floods.

    • Vicki PS says:

      11:29am | 28/02/12

      Some people are just lousy judges of character, it seems.  One of the things I find most appealing about Julia is her genuineness.  Many of her facial expressions remind me a lot of my own Mum and grandmother, and women of their generation.  Unless you are a supremely accomplished actor, you can’t fake the kinds of everyday feelings that show on Ms Gillard’s face, for example the smiles of sympathy in adversity shown when she spoke with victims of last year’s floods.

    • Ranga says:

      07:56am | 28/02/12

      If she did have children she would have been accused of neglecting them while she went and did her job. She is damned if she does and damned if she doesn’t. Must be nice for all these male pollies to have god wife at home to care for their children. Even when both partners work full time, research suggests that women still do more of the housework etc.

    • amy says:

      11:48am | 28/02/12

      not to mention the Iea of taking all that time off to actually have them…right now would be impossible

    • Rossco says:

      12:00pm | 28/02/12

      and the men work harder and die sooner, whats your point?

    • john says:

      01:53pm | 28/02/12

      penny wong must be very lucky then to have a wife at home to look after her kid

    • Ranga says:

      10:06pm | 28/02/12

      Penny is lucky. Perhaps Gillard should get a wife too.
      Rosco if ur logic is correct Gillard will die sooner along with the men and doesn’t need to also receive flack about being childless.

    • Chris says:

      08:00am | 28/02/12

      Personally I have found that saying you believe in God attracts far more venom than saying you are an atheist these days.

      But, to be honest, I think you’re clutching at straws here Tory - looking to amp up a non-issue into a real one.  Julia Gillard can choose not to have children - and to be honest I’m pretty glad of that.  It WILL, however, mean that she doesn’t have first hand knowledge of the issues that face families with children.  That said, there are many issues our politicians deal with every day that they don’t have first hand knowledge of (poverty, for example), so although they may understand all the intricies they can always take a stab at it, provided their motivation is in the right place.

    • Fred says:

      08:10am | 28/02/12

      I’m one of the first to say feminism has gone too far but Julia cops a lot of misogyny. I guess we should enjoy it seeing these born to rule idiots and self entitled bogans squirm for at least another 18 months.

    • Danielle says:

      08:11am | 28/02/12

      What bothers me is that Gillard is doing so much political damage, she is giving the definitions of “childless” and “atheist” a bad name. I am both, intend to stay that way, and generally receive no opposition from anyone that I actually give a shit about. Unfortunately, because she is a woman, when saying what a terrible politician she is, some people resort to picking on her personal choices as they may have more public impact than saying her policy is bad and she is a liar.

      In other words, if she were any good at her actual job people would be praising her childlessness and atheism. Or at the very least ignoring it for the non-issue that it is.

    • Johnno says:

      08:14am | 28/02/12

      I wonder if Julia Gillard will wake up today knowing she is the most unpopular person in the nation right now. She won’t admit it publicly but I wonder if she when she looks at herself in the mirror today will be aware how disliked she is, and the only reason she is not calling an election is to keep her job. I wonder if she knows this.

    • Ben says:

      10:49am | 28/02/12

      Was the article too long for you to focus on? Poor bubby.

    • Zac says:

      08:20am | 28/02/12

      “childless, atheist, ex-Communist”

      71 points question: Who is called Mad Monk, religious nutter, misogynist etc?

      CLUE: “Most of these attacks are nasty and personal, designed to raise doubts about the character of _ _ _ y _ _ _ _ t…...

      Already Labor is spending money on negative television advertising about _ _ _ y _ _ _ _ t…....” Jamie Briggs, The Punch, 08 Apr 10

    • evelyn says:

      08:22am | 28/02/12

      Well done Tory. By magnifying this insult you help to ensure its damaging potency. We can expect to see it used more often and powerfully in future to damage PM Gillard. PM Gillard has tried to present herself as the champion of family values to try to reconnect with the ALP base that she has abandonment through her job damaging and price hiking carbon tax, her multiculturalism and cultural relativism, her failed refugee policies and her crazy NBN scheme to subsidise internet access for inner city intellectuals and outer areas where much cheaper alternatives were available.  If she wants the benefits of being seen as mainstream family she invites scrutiny as to if she is genuine. Sadly, her political assassination of Beazley, Latham, Crean, Rudd and many others is biting her back. She uses gender and sexuality when it suits her. Calling Pyne a mincing poodle was a good example. She infers Abbott is racist and sexist regularly. Australians dislike hypocrites. It is a complement to a woman to expect her to take as good as she gives. What is there not to get about that Tory? And yes, no word from you about the Adelaide honour killings. Too politically correct to call them for what they are? Don’t care enough for those women to do so? Come on Tory wise up. Go to the website moralcourage.com listen to a proud Muslim lesbian feminist Dr Irshad Manji who has the courage to tell the truth about feminism, multiculturalism and cultural relativism and start your education. You have a great privilege in your public profile. Use it for good not on this silly gender politics. We are still waiting for you to join us but first you must develop moral courage. Have you enough moral courage to admit past error? I believe you have. Start by allowing free speech.

    • evelyn says:

      12:09pm | 28/02/12

      Bravo Tory. That was brave. Please allow me to encourage your readers to watch the You Tube video below a lecture given in Stockholm. Dr Irshad Manji is a Muslim, feminist, lesbian, non-political (engages with but harshly criticizes the right wing), academic with a strong Government and media background. She is pro-pluralism and diversity but anti-muticultrualism and cultural relativism, pro universal human rights, pro free speech and against censorship (she supports Salman Rushdie and pro publishing the Muhammad cartoons). She is anti burqa.  Time to stretch our intellects and challenge prejudices, start thinking seriously and demand change. Her books speak for themselves.  Don’t squander the precious gift of media access Tory. Women need your voice.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4fWVqodWyQ 5 parts

    • Vicki PS says:

      01:10am | 29/02/12

      What the heck are you on about, Evelyn?  I couldn’t make any sense at all out of your mish-mash of slogans, not that they have any relevance at all to the article.  Get a clue—Tory is a journalist and this is a light opinion piece, not a feminist dialectic. It is not her job to lecture the Punch readership on the moral courage of proud lesbian feminist Muslims.  If you want thundering moral harangues, go to a few rallies.  If you want to see moral courage, show a bit yourself.  What have you done for The Cause (whatever that cause may be, it’s impossible to tell from your muddled diatribe)?

      And by the way, I think you mean ‘imply’, not ‘infer’.  And what possible relevance do the “Adelaide honour killings”  have to Julia Gillard’s marital or family status, or her religious views?  Is it all connected at some cosmic level, or is it just the vibe of the thing?

    • Ned says:

      08:26am | 28/02/12

      The world is hardly running out of children, and there are some parents out there who probably shouldn’t be raising kids.

      I don’t think I’ll ever end up having kids. I don’t hate them, I just recognise that I’d probably make a terrible parent.

      So am I a monster for not wanting to breed, or just sensible for not inflicting an awkward, selfish and angry father on future children?

    • Kika says:

      09:12am | 28/02/12

      No Ned You are exempt. You are a man. You aren’t the one being questioned by all and sundry why you have ‘chosen’ not to have kids.

    • Labs (d)rool says:

      09:52am | 28/02/12

      I copped so much grief most of my life from people calling me selfish because I didn’t want to have kids.
      Eventually I came up with a winning formula:
      “OK, I’m selfish. No argument from me. I’m fully aware of the fact. I’m also lazy and self-centered.
      Can you show me some scientific studies that establish beyond reasonable doubt that popping out a child cures the above-mentioned bad traits? No?
      That means if I had a child, I’d be a selfish, lazy, self-centered mother.
      Right now, I’m not doing any harm to anyone.
      If I had children, I’d be inflicting lots of harm on poor innocent tykes.
      What kind of sadistic monster are you to wish me upon some innocent child as a mother?
      Wow… and you think YOU’RE the nice one?”

    • clazberri says:

      11:17am | 28/02/12

      Ned - no, you’re not a monster for not wanting to breed.  Your choice, for the reasons provided, seems quite sensible.

    • amy says:

      12:13pm | 28/02/12

      not having children selfish?

      tell me, whats more selfish? having your own or adopting?

      its the parents who are the “selfish” ones

    • Jonathan says:

      08:27am | 28/02/12

      As a christian middle income married father of two in my forties as I am a poor advocate for same-sex marriage legislation, i.e. I can sympathise but I can’t speak from experience and there can’t be an ideal representative of their parliamentary priorities. 
      Its the same with Julia Gillard, she can sympathise with me and my wants/needs   but she can’t speak from experience nor totally understand the demographic to which I belong.  And like most people I I like to follow leaders who are a close reflection of me and truly understand the challenges I face in life like providing for my family & raising kids which is why I prefer Rudd over Gillard as leader. 
      It’s not sexist, it’s relevancy.

    • Kika says:

      09:20am | 28/02/12

      So that’s why you can vote for Family First or something to represent your interests, like I wouldn’t vote Abbott because he doesn’t represent mine.

    • Chris says:

      01:40pm | 28/02/12

      I guess I agree in principle.  But in practice, who do the following categories of people vote for (let’s assume we are voting for PM rather than the theory that we actually vote for our local representatives):
      1) Poor people (not a lot of poor people running for PM)
      2) The wheelchair bound disabled (again - nothing springs to mind)
      3) Muslims (hmmm)

      There’s a long list, but you probably get my point.  We can’t vote based only on alignment, we have to vote based on ideals and principle, rather than on congruous life experience - otherwise too many people miss out.

      Who does your wife vote for?  After all, neither Rudd nor Abbott have much experience being a woman, as far as I am aware.

    • I, Claudia says:

      08:28am | 28/02/12

      I know that this is at best a sign of my dark sense of humour, but given that in my father’s line, there’s a history of Antisocial Personality Disorder, Type II alcoholism, epilepsy, megalomania and the rather ominous fact that every single one of my parents and grandparents has died of cancer (albeit lifestyle-induced cancers), I think that the idea of me actually wanting to reproduce is really quite ludicrous, and anyone who insists that I’m not a full-functioning woman if I DON’T want to reproduce is probably insane. I mean, I got lucky - I seem to have escaped most of the scourges of my father’s line, but seriously, this cycle of jerks has to end somewhere!

    • Andre says:

      08:30am | 28/02/12

      I think being a childless atheist is the least of Julia’s worries.

      I hate politics. I vote we go back to a tribe of about 30 people and the leader is decided by battle, the loser dies and the winner gets to provide for the tribe. All accountants are disqualified from leadership by default.

    • nankypoo says:

      03:22pm | 28/02/12

      Isn’t caucus a tribe of 102 people?
      Wasn’t the leader chosen by battle?

    • Rhubarb says:

      08:35am | 28/02/12

      I too am deliberately barren, and an atheist. I am just so glad I don’t get asked “when am I starting a family” anymore. Too old now, when asked if I have kids I say no, I’m too selfish and don’t have time.
      My choice, no one else’s and I don’t see why I HAVE to have them to satisfy any one else, husbands (3) included.
      As for Chooklia, would you like to have those genes?
      No it isn’t made a ‘big deal’ if your a male, so sexist….yes.
      Just hope once Labor is ousted that some one can clean up this mess they are leaving behind.

    • watty says:

      08:51am | 28/02/12

      Just where did Rudd get it wrongTory?

      Gillard…childless…agreed

      Gillard..aethiest..agreed

      Gillard,,ex Communist…agreed

      Wait a minute I see what you are getting at Tory

      Gillard…perhaps still Communist?

    • Q.Pham says:

      01:01pm | 28/02/12

      @ Watty
      They’re all true, but they’re all insults apparently…because she’s female. Hell, you could say ” Gillard is a woman” and have the femmo’s foaming at the mouth over such a sexist remark.

    • RyaN says:

      08:56am | 28/02/12

      “In week of whirring insults, the claim that ex-PM ex-FM Kevin Rudd called Prime Minister Julia Gillard a “childless, atheist, ex-Communist” is a standout.”

      Well lets face it, this has to be a false claim about Kevin Rudd, even Rudd isn’t stupid enough to make the mistake of calling her an ex-Communist when we all know there is nothing “ex” about her communism.

    • Davy says:

      09:04am | 28/02/12

      An interesting comment I heard recently spoken by a 94 year old man about his wife (2nd) of 25 years who is about 88. “I dunno”, “Women who have never had children are just so self absorbed”. Take it or leave it.

    • Danielle says:

      09:43am | 28/02/12

      I think men who say this are just annoyed the woman is not paying them enough attention. And a woman with child saying this would just be jealous. I know plenty of selfless women without children, and even more selfish women WITH children.

    • Kika says:

      09:44am | 28/02/12

      Self absorbed??
      Yeah 94 year old. So he was born in 1918 when women had only just started thinking about work thanks to WWI. Even still once she was married it was back home raising the kids.

      Come on. What about all the childless men? Why aren’t they taking some flack about not finding a woman to breed with? Childless men are bachelors. Childless women are selfish spinsters.

    • amy says:

      11:35am | 28/02/12

      oh come off it, next thing you’ll be telling us to get back into the kitchen

      would YOU like to physically have a child?

      my life is my own to do with it what I want..if that makes me self absorbed then I glad, rather be self absorbed than have a child because “people say I should” what do they know? its not their life or body
      Im not self absorbed, I just do not see myself as the “mother” type, I dotn think I could raise a child (right now anyway)

      get off your high hoarse

    • clazberri says:

      11:53am | 28/02/12

      Leave it.  It doesn’t matter who or how many people say a stupid thing, it’s still a stupid thing.

    • Lola says:

      02:05pm | 28/02/12

      Yeah my mother is clearly a mother. Yet she’s the most self absorbed person I know. Yes, she fulfilled her life by becoming a mother. Yet she didn’t give a damn what my sister and I did and invested no time or energy in us and is STILL only preoccupied with her own issues and doesn’t really give a damn what I do!!! I wasn’t even allowed to have a child when I was pregnant @ 22 and gave me the absolute cold shoulder because… and I quote “I’‘m not ready to be a grandmother!”

    • RyaN says:

      02:10pm | 28/02/12

      I think Davy just trolled you girls. He looks like a pro.

    • Jane2 says:

      07:31pm | 28/02/12

      @Kika, especially the post war men as there was a serious shortage of men. Any man who wanted to get married had his pick of women so those men where even more selfish as they ignored the countries call to ‘populate or perish’.

      Single women of that generation, not so much so as there was a man shortage and it was the era where if you want kids you MUST be married.

    • RBarron says:

      09:09am | 28/02/12

      Which part did Kevin get wrong Troy a “childless, atheist, ex-Communist” ?
      It is my option Troy that Julia Gillard couldn’t lay straight in bed and truth is a word that she doesn’t really know the meaning of or if she does she elects to exercise a different type of truth.

      In my option that could come from being an atheist were there is no one higher that she has to answer to and her action now have no effect on were she is going in the after life if she believes in an afterlife. Or maybe it comes from her training as a solicitor were there are different test for a verson of truth.

    • stormy weather says:

      09:10am | 28/02/12

      I personally don’t believe Julia Gillard likes or respects mothers. It’s just an opinion but I feel legislation her Government passes through disadvantages mothers and undervalues motherhood. Gillard favours participation of women in the form of work or education but never for their roles as mothers. That to me is disappointing.

      I personally didn’t give much of a crap about children or parenting til I had one. All the childless women I know may love children but they lack empathy with mothers. They all seemed to identify more with men, they become muses for men.

    • Kika says:

      09:52am | 28/02/12

      Her mother is a mother. Her sister is a mother. Why do you think she doesn’t like mothers? She hasn’t scrapped the baby bonus/paid parental leave. She hasn’t scrapped family tax benefits.

    • stormy weather says:

      01:17pm | 28/02/12

      I have never once heard Julia Gillard mention how difficult a role motherhood is.

      Men have mothers and sisters and daughters but it doesn’t stop many of them from being misogynists. Just because you are a woman doesn’t mean you can’t be a misogynist or feel loathing for someone or have a bias towards men etc.

      Julia Gillard supported the NT intervention which forced Aboriginal mothers in having their welfare payments quarantined among other degrading obligations.

      She has pushed through a legislation where young mothers are forced to place their young children into childcare, and for these mothers to attend some form of schooling or training or they will be penalised and have their payment suspended. Is that a legislation that values motherhood?

      Bill Shorten is trying to stealthily push through legislation which will remove “grandfathered” status to thousands of single mothers whose children weren’t born before 2001. This will result in a decreased payment for these sole parent families. The savings will go towards increasing the sub standard Austudy rate.
      Stealing from the poor to give to the poor.
      Why would Julia Gillard support her ministers to disadvantage sole parents and further entrench their poverty?

    • KH says:

      01:38pm | 28/02/12

      You are right stormy weather.  We should let these bludgers continue getting welfare forever, and let their kids grow up with that as a role model.  I grew up with a single parent - and she was never without a job, not even for 1 week in over 50 years - and she had two kids to look after.  Some people are just soft and need to harden up.

    • Kika says:

      02:13pm | 28/02/12

      I’ve never heard anyone in parliament say motherhood is tough. Working in the mines is tough work too. Just as working a tough job is a choice, motherhood is a choice. I think most people know where babies come from these days, don’t they?

    • stormy weather says:

      03:28pm | 28/02/12

      Kika, are you sure you’re not on the Gina Rhinehart payroll? You sound like an anti-mother agenda driven troll. Bit of a double standard defending one group of women (those who choose not to have children) while knocking down another (mothers).
      Kika, miners are very well remunerated in this country, mothers are not.

      KH, your mum worked hard and struggled all her life just to raise a bigot, she must be proud.

    • Chris L says:

      04:29pm | 28/02/12

      @Stormy Weather - “You sound like an anti-mother agenda driven troll”

      Could you perhaps provide an example of something Kika said that sounds like anti-mother agenda driven trolling please?

    • Cynicised says:

      09:25am | 28/02/12

      Thank you Tory. It’s about time the vilification of women for choosing not to bear children, especially in Ms Gillard’s case, was held up as the baseless, offensive nonsense that it is. I do not for one moment believe that everyone judges her on this criterion, however, far too many people see her choice as a negative and use it as a weapon against her in the most derogatory fashion, our dear Opposition leader being one. Judge her on her political performance, but leave her ovaries out of it, including using them as a positive, ie she’s a woman so women should back her. If the country was simply able to judge her purely as a politician, without expecting her performance to be better or worse than a man, then we can finally say we have real equality based on merit in our political leaders.

      Abbott and his Ilk who choose to vilify Ms Gillard and any other woman who exercises her human right of choice whether or not to procreate should be ashamed of themselves. It is perfectly possible to to be a caring, compassionate, understanding person without being a parent.

    • Emmy says:

      11:14am | 28/02/12

      Your last paragraph. Where in the hell has Abbott critised her for the 3 things. You are a dummy. It was Rudd and he is Labor

    • Cynicised says:

      01:04pm | 28/02/12

      Excuse me Emmy, it may have been Rudd’s remark which prompted this article, but as Tory says, the issue of Julia’s childlessness has been used as weapon by Abbott And his Ilk before. as I said, on other occasions. Take for Intance The Monk’s choice comments about “virginity being the ultimate gift a woman can bestow on her husband”, Julia’s response being critical of Abott’s remarks as typical,of his mindset and then Brandis’s attack on Julia as being a godless, barren atheist. Abbott then went on to say he was speaking as parent and that Julia was speaking as a politician, the implication being that because she was childless she could not possibly understand. Yeah, right, Tony Abbott, the extreme conservative, embraces Julia (and any woman who makes her choice) as a modern, independent woman! Please!

    • splash says:

      09:31am | 28/02/12

      Chidless and atheist is not a big deal,
      But her past communist views and which grouup she has associated her self in the past are.
      That mind set will still be in her and we cannot have that communist shit ideology in Australia.

    • James1 says:

      10:10am | 28/02/12

      So she is a thought criminal?  She must be re-educated?  Maybe we could do that in some kind of camp, where we force people to change the way they think…

      I don’t like where this type of rhetoric is taking us.  I thought we were free to hold any political opinion we liked.

    • Zac says:

      11:04am | 28/02/12

      James1,

      If you are looking for re-education camps. You would easily find it in China and North Korea. They are called gulags. Seems to me Atheists run it.

    • James1 says:

      11:38am | 28/02/12

      This is not a religious issue Zac, so please take your irrelevant slander of atheists elsewhere.  It is very tedious and boring.

      splash is saying we shouldn’t be able to think certain things and hold certain opinions.  You may be comfortable with that when it comes to ideas you disagree with, but that is a disturbing idea to me as I sincerely believe in individual freedom even for those with whom I disagree.  Surely we can agree that freedom of thought and conscience is a good thing?

    • clazberri says:

      01:02pm | 28/02/12

      James1, I wish there was a ‘like’ button for both your comments.  I really appreciate it when someone takes the time to counter ridiculous arguments with reason and logic.  Cheers.

    • AdamC says:

      01:14pm | 28/02/12

      I dunno, James1, I would have thought the PM being an ex-Commie is kinda relevant. I didn’t take from splash’s comment that Gillard should be put in a gulag for thought crime, just that splash would prefer not having a former Communist as PM. That seems reasonable to me.

    • Zac says:

      01:25pm | 28/02/12

      James1.

      Where did I claim it is a religious issue? You are the one who asked if Julia should be re-educated. You should know we don’t have such camps in Western nations. However re-education is offered by enforcement of militant secular laws especially in places like U.K. The other day a guy was forced to apologise for questioning double -burkha - standards.

      You should realise the link between Communism-Secularism and Atheism. The more a country is influenced by these ideologies, the more it loses it’s personal, public and freedom of speech. You only believe in freedom of thought and conscience because you live in the Christian west. There is no such thing in Atheist states. Many left/secular/commie/Atheist dominated sites and media will not publish the comments they don’t like. So Atheism/Communism and freedom is incompatible.

    • Cookie Monster says:

      01:47pm | 28/02/12

      Zac says “You should realise the link between Communism-Secularism and Atheism.”

      Yeah James1 - you only have a PhD is this kind of thing. Obviously Zac thinks you need to re-educate yourself *giggle*.

    • James1 says:

      01:58pm | 28/02/12

      “That mind set will still be in her and we cannot have that communist shit ideology in Australia.”

      I took that at face value, Adam.  I took it to mean that we cannot have particular ideologies and modes of thought in Australia, not that we should get rid of the PM.  If they meant what you say they did, why not just say that?  Why advocate getting rid of everyone who shares an idea?  It is relevant in the same way that it is relevant that Keith Windschuttle is an ex-communist, sure, but not the basis for removing someone from Australia.  Unless we have descended into authoritarianism and we declared communists thought criminals.

      Zac, splash claimed that we “cannot have” certain ideologies in Australia.  How does one get rid of types of thought?  One declares them to be crimes, and re-educates adherents.  Thus, I raised re-education camps because that is where splash’s logic leads us.  You use this as an opportunity to slander atheists and bring religion (or lack thereof) into the discussion.  Your link between secular freedoms and authoritarianism is total bunk, BTW.  I have every right to be free from your religion, just as you have every right to be free from my atheism, and secularism allows this for both of us.  I believe in freedom of thought and conscience because I am a secularist, and as such see no need to impose my own thoughts and conscience on others, as the religious want us to, and often do.  I will agree that communism and freedom are incompatible by definition, however. 

      I think you have one major intellectual failing, Zac, that you need to overcome to be a credible commentator.  You need to realise it is possible to be an atheist without being a communist.  Everything you say seems to stem from this assumption, and as a result everything you say is a big steaming pile of nonsense.

    • A Dose of Reality says:

      08:14pm | 28/02/12

      “Zac says: 02:25pm | 28/02/12
      James1.

      You should realise the link between Communism-Secularism and Atheism. The more a country is influenced by these ideologies, the more it loses it’s personal, public and freedom of speech. You only believe in freedom of thought and conscience because you live in the Christian west. There is no such thing in Atheist states. Many left/secular/commie/Atheist dominated sites and media will not publish the comments they don’t like. So Atheism/Communism and freedom is incompatible”

      ….. what a load of crap.  Read it again - see how you’ve embarrassed yourself!

      Here’s a hint:

      The sky is blue - so is my shirt.  Therefore I am part of the sky!

    • Kika says:

      09:33am | 28/02/12

      I am flabbergasted that in 2012 we are still basing a woman’s character on her motherhood status and not for her character. There’s plenty of sht as-s Mum’s out there. Ask Erick’s crew of bitter divorced Dads. They can tell you more than anyone on these blogs that just because you are mother doesn’t mean you are an untouchable guru of holy perfection.

      So why we still stuck with this 1960’s image of what a woman should be? I have friends on facebook having quarter life crises about not having a husband or a family yet, despite them having 2 degrees and working in a career they have dreamed of their whole entire lives (and being damned good at it).  Yeah, maybe it’s true that we’ve forgotten that motherhood is important and does bring a lot of people life long satisfaction. I want to be a mother. But I don’t want to be harassed about it or to be judged solely on whether I have brought a baby into the world. And even still, even if I do I don’t want people assuming I am a good Mum just because I am one.

      There’s a lot of women who have chosen career over motherhood. Oprah has said that she understood early on that you can’t have both worlds. You can either be a decicated Mum, or a dedicated career woman. We were sold lies by the feminists that you can have everything - career, husband and a baby. But look what its created? Unhappy homes, divorce, children without a Mum at home, day care kids, day care kids going to school not being able to do the fundamentals nor even be able to use a toilet for themselves yet (I know a prep teacher who has had quite a few kids arrive at school still wearing nappies).

      If Julia has chosen a career, good for her. Her choice. If she has chosen not to have kids, just because, then good for her too. She probably understood the demands on her in her work would be too great to be both a dedicated Mum and lawyer/politician. Look at Mark Arbib. He’s resigned his position because his kids miss him.

      It’s time we all grew up and valued everyone for who they are. We should value stay at home mums who are doing a good job at it because it’s a tough job! We should also appreciate that some women choose not to have kids for the sake of a career not only because she has been selfish but because she probably understands that her career would demand too much for her to be a good Mum. The fact we have such massive demand for IVF and that we’ve all been conned into thinking we can have a career first THEN have kids shows that we’ve stuffed it up along the way.

    • amy says:

      11:52am | 28/02/12

      well said

      and I think degress and a carerr are very wothwhile acheivments, quite frankly I dont think the PM should have children

      and “having it all” is BS,  a jack of all trades and master of none

    • Q.Pham says:

      01:22pm | 28/02/12

      Kika says -
      There’s plenty of sht as-s Mum’s out there. Ask Erick’s crew of bitter divorced Dads.
      and then says-
      It’s time we all grew up and valued everyone for who they are.

      Time to take your own advice, Kika

    • Cynicised says:

      01:45pm | 28/02/12

      Kika, I think we can have it all, just not all at the same time, however, I’d  go the other way if I had my time again, as my daughters are doing. They are gaining, or have gained their qualifications in their respective fields, then are choosing to have children whilst still in their mid to late twenties (peak fertility), then returning to the workforce when their children are school-age. They are professionals with good incomes, partnered with similar men, so that makes them lucky enough to have options re the sharing of parental duties. 

      I agree that we women  have been sold a pup about doing it all on our own, waiting too long  and trying to climb the corporate ladder with young kids. It takes careful planning and careful decision-making to balance work, children and leisure, but it CAN be done, as long as we remember to prioritize our families if we decide to procreate.

    • Kika says:

      02:42pm | 28/02/12

      QPham - Um… do you understand logic? Did I say ALL mums were sht? No. I said there were plenty. So in turn, not all mums are sht, NOT ALL MUMS ARE GOOD ONES.

    • Q.Pham says:

      03:18pm | 28/02/12

      Logic ? Look the word up, Kika.
      You said” It’s time we all grew up and valued everyone for who they are.”
      That should include the mums that you have so kindly judged to be “shit”. Who the f*ck are you to judge? I suppose supporting the killing of unborn babies makes you somehow better than them ?
      I’ve read nothing but hateful bile from you directed toward everyone who isn’t like you, that’s why I say take your own bit of advice and “grow up and value everyone for who they are.”
      Oh,BTW, I don’t have or want kids, I’m not married and I’m an athiest.
      Ok, go on have the final say, I can see it’s something you just need to have.

    • clazberri says:

      09:34am | 28/02/12

      I too am an atheist and deliberately childless.  I am not ‘mummy material’.  A person only has so much time on this planet.  Once it’s gone, that’s it.  My time is the most precious thing I own and I simply don’t want large chunks of my time monopolized by kids and a husband.  That arrangement wouldn’t allow me to spend my time pursuing the things I love and that make me happy, such as understanding the universe through science and volunteering for animal welfare agencies etc.  If having children makes you happy, that’s great and I wish you and your children all the happiness in the world.  It’s just not what I want and it’s not what makes me happy.

    • Bea Riel says:

      09:37am | 28/02/12

      Question: Is it only the childless, aetheist, communist women who ever make it to the top in a predominantly male arena?

    • Yeah, Right, Whatever says:

      12:29pm | 28/02/12

      Kristina Kenneally is a devout Catholic mum of two.
      Anna Bligh has kids - don’t know if she is an atheist.
      Kate Gallagher, Chief Minister of the ACT has kids
      Kate Carnell, former Chief Minister of the ACT had kids while Chief Minister.
      Carmen Lawrence, former Premier of WA, had a son.

      I think there are enough exceptions to the rule about if you are female then you must be childless to become a leader of a political party. 

      Why aren’t people asking about the religion of male political leaders.  Can’t remember Bob Hawke being called out too often for being agnostic.

    • mmg says:

      09:40am | 28/02/12

      I don’t think women, or men for that matter, who do not have children are lesser people.  But I do think that people who willfully choose to not have children, with no valid reason, are selfish and a drain on society - economically speaking.  As such, they should be taxed more or have more of their income sequestered for super because otherwise the children of others have to subsidise their retirement.  I’m not saying you have to have children as it is a matter of choice but if you choose not to, then you need to contribute to the future economy in other ways.  In the same way that you don’t have to have private medical insurance but if you choose not to you have to pay more medicare levy.

    • Danielle says:

      09:57am | 28/02/12

      Um, by not having children they work more (therefore pay more taxes), spend just as much (just on different things), and reduce drain on the medical and education system by adding one less number. Your argument is completely flawed.

    • Miss N says:

      10:22am | 28/02/12

      @mmg - OMG did you actually read what you wrote?! I agree with Danielle but would like to add one more valid point - we are the ones supporting you while you sit at home on your a$$es all day and call it raising children! We are the ones who slog our butts off at work all day while you swan around meeting the rest of your mother groups and have coffee, shop, play dates, etc. We are the ones who get absolutely nothing back on our tax assessments each year while people with children always seem to come out on top (last year I got $60, my sister and her husband (who earns less than me) and their 4 children got over $5000 back - how’s that fair when all she does is sit on her a$$ all day watching tv while the kids are at school???? And lastly, we are the ones who have to sit around and wait longer in hospitals because you people can’t supervise your children properly and their breaks are more important than someone who needs care because they are very ill from their recent round of chemo! There should be a levy based on good parenting and supervision!

    • Kika says:

      10:32am | 28/02/12

      MMG - Actually it’s those having children who are placing a greater burden on society.
      1) We pay tax and claim less of it back
      2) We don’t ever receive baby bonuses or paid parental leave from the tax payer
      3) We don’t claim family tax benefits at any stage
      4) We are also paying for your children’s doctors visits and schooling
      5) When we retire there will be no such thing as the old age pension anyway. Besides, all those years anyway of us having to subsidise your child bearing should be our rights whether or not we can get the pension anyway.

      So by your logic I should be sequestering my tax money from those who do have children so none of my tax money goes to your child going to school or seeing a doctor to make sure I can fund my own pension from my own tax money.

    • I hate pies says:

      10:57am | 28/02/12

      Dear oh dear Miss N. You should go and look after someones kids for day; it will change your perspective. I’ve looked after our kids while my wife is away, and couldn’t wait to get back to work. It’s bloody hard work; going to work is a breeze compared to being a stay at home parent.
      Regarding hospitals, suck it up princess - children always come first.

    • Elphaba says:

      11:09am | 28/02/12

      @mmg - see, this is what happens when you make stuff up.  You look like an ass - and then you get it handed to you.

    • Labs (d)rool says:

      11:27am | 28/02/12

      “I’ve looked after our kids while my wife is away, and couldn’t wait to get back to work.”
      Would you like a medal, dear?

      “Looking after children is SO hard, I couldn’t wait to get back to work, and they’re MY OWN children. And I just admitted that I don’t look after them all the time, although they’re MY OWN children. So I’m going to criticise someone who thinks that parents sit on their butts all day. Although I just admitted I prefer to avoid looking after MY OWN children, and would rather go to work.”

      You CHOSE to become a parent. If you didn’t want to be, there’s a condom. Or abstinence. Therefore, to quote you…
      “suck it up princess”

    • Bel says:

      11:51am | 28/02/12

      I think there should be an Ugly Child Tax. Im sick of ugly children ruining my view of the world while I work 60 hour weeks.
      Come on, tax me for not wanting children, Ill make sure that my ugly child tax gets in before yours does….
      ps ill be the one deciding who is ugly, it wont be assessable by the parents.

    • bella starkey says:

      11:52am | 28/02/12

      I thought mmg was being satirical.

      No one else thought this?

    • amy says:

      12:24pm | 28/02/12

      WHAT???

      how dows that work? Im selfish because I choose not to do somthing horrifically wrong (for me)?

      which is more selfish…adopting or having your own?

      parents are the selfish ones

    • Andre says:

      01:48pm | 28/02/12

      Hey Bel I reckon I could get the ugly personality tax in before your tax and I reckon you will be in the top tax bracket.

    • Bel says:

      02:24pm | 28/02/12

      Bella Starkey,

      Yes I was hoping the same thing becuase I was being sarcastic.

      Andre, you need to chill out dude.

    • Mattb says:

      04:12pm | 28/02/12

      ‘mmg’  and ‘I hate using my brain’

      Both fine examples of just how stupid some Aussies are….

    • Zac says:

      09:42am | 28/02/12

      Childless: Having children wouldn’t necessarily qualify a person to run the country. Have a look how that went with Kevin Rudd, Mark Latham and I forgot the name of the Democrat guy who fronted the T.V with a crying child.

      However having kids would certainly make you more well rounded. How do I know that? I have kids myself. So that will certainly help a leader. There are times my ideas and views are even challenged by my young kids. I also learn from them. Mind you there are times even nuns (who have dedicated their lives to serve - heart of Christianity) - fathers-  are accused of lack of empathy.

      Atheist: Athiesm is not non-belief or lack of belief etc. Especially in this day and age in the western world and among whites/caucasians it is more of a active belief and in many cases militant. I have addressed this in detail in Tory’s last blog. Before you claim Atheism is not a belief or religion or nothingness, try reading that blog or if required I’ll post the link here.

      So the question is:

      1. What sort of bearing does her Atheism have on our democracy?

      2. How does it affect religious freedom?

      3. How does it help Atheist evangelism?

      4. How does it affect her decision making and the largely the values of Australia and society?

      5. Is it time to push for separation of Athesim and State?

      exCommunist - I am not sure if she is an exCommunist. May be in label. But does that or it’s values still influence her thinking or decision making? Mind you Atheism and Communism is very much linked. Just a glance of history would tell you that.

      Summary: I think her Feminism, Atheism, Childlessness and Communism (ex?) does create a problem in connecting with the community. That is something that comes out in many of the posts I read. Even my wife told me the other day, many women at her work, mostly all married and some singles are not fans of Julia Gillard.

      May be she can connect with inner city labor/tree huggers (product of above said ideologies) but probably not with larger Australia. As a person I respect her but looking at the ideologies (and policies which is inter linked) that has influenced her I can in no way connect with her or share her values.

      But to her credit she has mellowed in many areas, for example the Public and Private school wars (these wars are the direct result of Atheism/secularism - political front of Atheists). So she can at times be in direct conflict with her ideology and Athiestic beliefs for political purposes. Hope this helps. God bless, sorry, all hail Darwin god!!

    • Cyn says:

      09:42am | 28/02/12

      “guileless, earnest, optimist’!

      Hilarious!

    • Cath says:

      09:47am | 28/02/12

      Ignore it Tory, in the same way that people with large families ignore jibes about their choices.  All lifestyle choices have good and not so good aspects.  But my main observation is that good manners seem to go out the window when it comes to remarks about fertility choices.

    • Dan Webster says:

      09:49am | 28/02/12

      All the women who choose not to be mothers in the quest for a “career” are the same ones who hit forty and realize their life is empty and they need to have kids. (They then moan about fertility options and how hard it is!)

      Ladies, ignore your fertile ovaries at your peril…......

      As Dirty Harry once said >
      “You have got to ask yourself one question, Do I feel clucky ?,  well do you ....”

    • Mother of future voters says:

      10:11am | 28/02/12

      The word “choice” is used as a cover or excuse to not have children. I wonder if Julia is a mother, she just used the word “choice” and now has a bitter conscience. Julia Gillard does not represent me nor many woman I know. I prefer Tony Abbott as he has supported his wife in having children, and being a mother is the hardest and most unrecognized position a woman can hold, and Tony aknowledges and understands parenthood. I love the 1950’s I wish I could go back in time and be respected as a mother.

    • Kika says:

      10:36am | 28/02/12

      Nope… I don’t.  Babies are dirt bags.

      I think a study has shown that the contraceptive pill reduces cluckiness.

      Whilst I would like a child, I really don’t fawn over other people’s babies. Actually being around a baby makes me feel less clucky.

    • Cynicised says:

      10:57am | 28/02/12

      I am for terrified for the future if women such as yourself are raising the next generation of voters then, MOFV. 

      And WTF is  this meant to mean? “The word “choice” is used as a cover or excuse to not have children. Cover or excuse? No, it’s a choice, meaning to make a decision, she’s covering nothing, excusing nothing, and neither should she! 

      And next ” I wonder if Julia is a mother, she just used the word “choice” and now has a bitter conscience.”. Is this some sort of veiled reference to the idea that Julia may have had a termination at some point? If it is, it explains exactly why you support Abbott and judge Julia. It’s an underhanded, reprehensible, ignorant attack on another woman because you are anti- abortion. You have revealed yourself totally.

      No-one is saying, by the way, that motherhood isn’t worthwhile and great for some, but many of us are saying it isn’t for everyone and that choice should be respected.

    • Dan Webster says:

      11:32am | 28/02/12

      @ Kika - you actually sound like perfect mother material to me.

      Ditch those pills and you could be saying - “Ohhh look at my cute wittle baby. ohhh so cute….I could just kiss you all day…mummy loves her baby, yes she does, yes she does…..”.
      When you are a mother, don’t forget to take your anger out on your husband either, we love it.

    • amy says:

      11:55am | 28/02/12

      youve got no right to tell me how to live me live

      and your a man, you dont know shit about childbirth

    • Dan Webster says:

      12:14pm | 28/02/12

      @ amy - which part of childbirth would you like to know about ?
      I know plenty about it Amy, try me.

      You know you have every right not to listen…..

    • amy says:

      01:38pm | 28/02/12

      @Dan Webster

      YOU are not the one who has to give brith to the thing, you are in no position to chasitise those who dont want to recreate the chest bursting scene from “Alien”

    • mother of future voters says:

      02:34pm | 28/02/12

      Do people even know how they are talking about fellow human beings? To refer to a baby as a thing or dirt bag is quite alarming.

    • amy says:

      02:51pm | 28/02/12

      @mother of future I agree

      I think “chest burster” or xenomorph is much more fitting

    • Mother of future voters says:

      06:04pm | 28/02/12

      Amy, its people like yourself that vote for “wymen” like Julia because you are bitter and angry.people who hold opinions and the like of Julia Gillard should not be governing our Country if you care not for the future citizens of Australia. I could refer to you as a “dirt bag” or the like but I will not because I respect you as a fellow human being. However to stop those who think like you victimising others, I will continue to vote for people who respect humanity.

    • maureen askham says:

      09:52am | 28/02/12

      There is much talk of the ‘faceless men’ from both sides, men and women alike. But isn’t ‘Emily’s List’ a group of faceless women? Why is their unelected power not subject to scrutiny? Why is this subject to censorship by political correctness? Why can’t we talk about this? Why don’t we? Why such hypocrisy? Isn’t that sexist too?

    • iansand says:

      09:57am | 28/02/12

      I read this thread and I understand why “unmarried and childless” is such a potent political weapon.

      I read this thread and despair.

    • Cynicised says:

      10:30am | 28/02/12

      As do I, iansand. I cannot fathom the mindset of those who do not see women as fully functioning, compassionate humans unless they are mothers. I guess it’s their inability to place themselves in the shoes of another which makes it impossible for them to understand that others are capable of it.

    • Miss N says:

      09:57am | 28/02/12

      Not having children doesn’t make you less of a woman, in some cases (like mine!) it means I/we have enough consideration for others not to add to the population that seems to now be full of obnoxious little brats who have to have everything. Having children doesn’t validate you in any way except that for some it changes their life, behaviours and feelings. For others there is no change whatsoever. Not all women were born to breed. Gone are the days where we all resembled Samantha in Bewitched who stayed home with the baby and catered to her husbands every need. I make twice the wage that my partner does. Should he be the one to stay home and cater to my every need? And who would want to bring a child up in this world??? There’s way too much violence, money and environmental issues…

    • Brad says:

      10:00am | 28/02/12

      Tory, I don’t find anything wrong with the statement. Ms Gillard is childless, she is an atheist and she is an ex-communist. So why the fuss. Are these not the facts??

    • Ben says:

      10:54am | 28/02/12

      Obama is african-american, was born in Indonesia, and has leftist social views. So if Congress called him “that black, immigrant commie”, well by your logic that is ok.

    • Brad says:

      11:21am | 28/02/12

      Ben, again, Obama is black, he is an immigrant commie.

    • Eleni B says:

      01:15pm | 28/02/12

      @Ben..Obama was not born in Indonesia…he was born in Hawaii a state of the US of A!  As for Julia and any human being for that matter, how we each choose to live our lives is our choice and nobody elses. Get married, don’t get married, have kids or don’t belive in God or not…your choice. I won’t try to convince you that my beliefs are right so don’t try to convince me about yours…

    • Cookie Monster says:

      01:24pm | 28/02/12

      “Obama is african-american, was born in Indonesia”

      Ben, Ben Ben !!! Oh why do the uneducated post - they only embarrass themselves.

    • Dimity says:

      10:05am | 28/02/12

      Great article. I think these insults still carry weight with some sections the electorate.

      I wish I knew who some sections of the community can think if women haven’t had children that they incapable of connecting to and leading the community and it doesn’t matter for men. I have always wondered how people could come to this ilogical conclusion.

      It seems to me that these groups think if a woman politician is childless she doen’t understand real people, if she has children she should be home looking after them. Do these people just not want women in parliament!? Have we gone back to that?

    • rudy says:

      10:07am | 28/02/12

      Politics is no game for people who want to raise a family, especially if you’re a PM or senior minister or shadow minister in Federal politics. You’re just not going to be able to spend the time as a parent that your kids need. It’s the same for men and women in politics.

      As for the ‘atheist’ jibe allegedly made by Rudd against Gillard - I’d like to see more atheists in politics. I never quite trust someone that puts a lot of faith in an invisible almighty and in a book written hundreds of years ago in unenlightened times, which it is claimed is supposed to be the word of this unvisible almighty.

    • John L says:

      10:56am | 28/02/12

      I agree with this; raising a child is THE most important job an adult should have, careers etc should take a back seat, if you decide to be a politician as well as being a parent, being away from your family for weeks at a time, then your priorities need adjustment.

      Also ‘unvisible” is incorrect, the word is invisible, the “un” prefix is better suited to other words, e.g. “likely”, “important” and “wanted” smile

    • rudy says:

      03:27pm | 28/02/12

      Thanks, John. Clearly my second use of the word ‘invisible’ in my post contained an inadvertant typo, not ignorance of the correct spelling. Any comment on the substance of that second par?

    • qwerty says:

      10:21am | 28/02/12

      why do i keep clicking on these sorts of articles - i get all teary !!! even though it should be a positive reassurance that 1 in 5 women won’t have children, and ridiculous attitudes against childless women belong back in the 1950s etc. etc…. I completely agree with the article - and yet i’m just devastated that my partner doesn’t want to have kids and I do… to leave and start again or to accept life without them but with a truly wonderful man. I absolutely can not, can not make up my mind about this one !!!! :(

    • Kika says:

      10:41am | 28/02/12

      Qwerty - I feel for you. I am in the same position as you. My husband told me when we met that he’d love to have children with me. But it just seems every year there’s something why we can’t have them now and that later is better. Lately it’s become a bit of an issue because I have always wanted to have my children before 30. I am not on the brink of 30 and he keeps changing his mind. It comes down to his own insecurities about being a father and fearing that he will make the same mistakes his father did.  I can’t make him become a father.  He is terrible at making big decisions. I don’t know what to do either.
      Good luck. I hope everything goes well gor you.

    • Danielle says:

      10:47am | 28/02/12

      That sounds horrible and I truly feel for you. I only realised I don’t want kids in the last few years. I made this discovery just before I met my man but only truly accepted it when I fell for him and I realised he didn’t want them either…it made me feel accepted and ok with my choice. We have always promised that if either of us changes our minds we would be open to discuss. I can’t imagine changing my mind and am SO grateful I found someone who feels the same. If he wanted kids, the way I know some of my exes now do, I can’t imagine what I would do…I certainly wouldnt want to leave him. It must be even worse the other way around. I really feel for u :(

    • Melissa says:

      11:42am | 28/02/12

      It’s a really tough to place to be in Qwerty. As a woman I am in your partners position. I have never wanted to have children and as I stare down the barrel of my 35th birthday (with more vigorous reminders every year) I’m still resolved that it isn’t for me. However, the men I have dated over the years have always wanted marriage and children and despite constant reassurances that I’d make a great mum (and I do to my dogs!) the relationships have always had to end because I’m not prepared to bring children in to this world because I want to hold on to the man I’m dating. Nobody is going to thank me for that when I’m miserable and full of regret and once you have them you can’t give them back. Just like nobody is going to be thanking you for not having them when you’re sad and miserable and wishing you did.
      So I’m now single and happy and hope to one day meet a man that doesn’t want children or is happy to have dogs at least.
      I hope whichever choice you make, it leads to a lifetime of happiness for you. But remember that whatever choice you make you have to make it for yourself and not for those around you.

    • Michael says:

      01:41pm | 28/02/12

      Qwerty, have the child by whatever means you choose.

      You get one life at a time, do not model yours on the ideals of someone else’s it will only lead to suffering, mostly yours.  We all suffer a little for every piece of suffering in the world.

      On a positive note, “Every moment that you are happy, is a gift to the world” H.Palmer. <3

    • amy says:

      10:29am | 28/02/12

      I don’t see why not having children is some kind of failure

      I dont want children, in fact the very Idea disgusts me (not children, I like kids)

      your no less of a woman if you dont have kids..in fact I WOULDNT want a woman with kids as prime-mnister..you know, priotities

    • Leah says:

      10:53am | 28/02/12

      I have so many different thoughts on both sides of the argument here.

      For starters, I am SO SICK of people saying that someone who rates motherhood as, possibly, the most worthwhile achievement a woman could have, belongs in the 1950s. I actually think fatherhood is the most worthwhile achievement a man could have too. It is NOT an attitude that belongs in the 1950s. If only we could inject a bit of the 1950s into the 2010s where parents - mothers and fathers alike - are respected and mothers are not mocked for turning their backs on their careers for a child. We are in a society where we fight for a man’s right to be the stay-at-home parent but still criticise and belittle women who choose to do that (although I do think we have made good progress in recent years).

      However, obviously not everybody would be good at it so not everybody should do it. And the idea that it could be used as an insult is terrible. Not just because it’s not as if all women must have children, but because you never know the story behind the person to whom you are directing the insult. Maybe they really, really want kids and have been trying for ten years and you’ve just written them off as someone who doesn’t count because they don’t have kids. That’s awful.

      But I do also understand why it might be pertinent in regards to the PM. Like it or not, families are the building block of our country and people with families make up a majority of the country. If you don’t have children, it will be harder for you to understand how so many things - society, your policies, legislation, tax, education, childcare, healthcare - impact families.

      Different things are expected of the PM than normal people. It comes with the territory. And I honestly believe the same ‘childless’ comments would be directed towards a male childless PM too.

    • amy says:

      11:43am | 28/02/12

      1950s were overated

      people will choose what they want to do, there will always be SOMONE who disaproves, you cant change that

      parenthood is the greatest acheivment for some people, for others it isnt

      thats why you ignore them, no one should tell me how to live my life..much less somone who doesnt know me

    • Kika says:

      02:03pm | 28/02/12

      Leah - so on one hand you are saying that parenthood is the pinnacle of life, yet you also understand that not everyone is cut out to be a parent. So some can be special, and others can’t? The ones who aren’t cut out to be parents will never find anything meaninful in their lives then?

    • Azzure says:

      10:54am | 28/02/12

      The grass is greener without kids anyway..

      - Higher disposable income
      - Less commitment
      - Freedom

    • Dan Webster says:

      12:25pm | 28/02/12

      - Boredom
      - Ability to waste all your income
      - Silly renewal of material objects to help with the boredom
      - Total selfishness and self immersal
      - The grass eventually dies and starts to look like crap
      - Loneliness
      - Regret

    • amy says:

      01:42pm | 28/02/12

      @Dan Webster

      Bordom? if you get bordom from lack of kids you are seriously failing in life

      “waste income”? haha thats entirely subjective

      “Total selfishness and self immersal”- thats bullshit

      The grass eventually dies and starts to look like crap
      - Loneliness
      - Regret

      you dont know me, you cant tell me how I will or wont feel,

    • amy says:

      01:44pm | 28/02/12

      @Dan Webster

      also it seems parents are the ones in “Total selfishness and self immersal
      never shut up about thier kids or how “enilightened” they are now that they have chldren, and look down on people who dont feel that particular lifestyle choice is for them

    • James1 says:

      02:48pm | 28/02/12

      If you hang around people who always talk about the same thing and look down on you for not having kids, maybe you need some new friends, amy?

    • amy says:

      02:57pm | 28/02/12

      @James1

      only on opinion blogs raspberry I dont get it in real life..probably because most peopel assume Im 14/16

    • Dan Webster says:

      03:25pm | 28/02/12

      @Amy

      Dear Amy,

      Please calm yourself and act the proper lady.

      Parents also speak a lot of crap too.
      Parenting IS hard work and sometimes it feels overwhelming.
      BUT the “wow” moments far outweigh any feeling I had whilst enjoying the single days.
      It changes your perspective.

      “you dont know me, you cant tell me how I will or wont feel,”

      You’re human like me. We all suffer from the same basic needs for nurture.

    • amy says:

      04:14pm | 28/02/12

      @Dan Webster

      1. I will act how I want to act regardless of my gender

      2. theres nothing wrong with being a parent, but its a lifestyle choice, you seem to fail to understand that lifestyle choice is NOT for everyone

      Im not saying “Ill never want kids” I know that could change, I am saying its incredibly arrogant to assume anyone who doest follow YOUR version of life is somhow defective

      also…“chestburster scene” from Alien..seriously

    • Azzure says:

      05:31pm | 28/02/12

      It is a lifestyle choice, and I personally cannot stand the little gremlins. Some of my best friends have kids and to be honest from the outside it looks very unappealing.

      What annoys me is that other people think they have the right to tell you that you are selfish because you choose not to have kids. How is it selfish?

    • Dan Webster says:

      08:41pm | 28/02/12

      @ Amy - The fiesty one : P

      I watched my son come into the world. It was WOW.

      From what I witnessed your chest will be fine.
      As for your lady parts…well…everything heals in time I suppose.

      I sense you will make a great mum one day (when you are ready).

    • amy says:

      01:16pm | 29/02/12

      @Dan Webster

      why do they always say that?..just seems a very general thing people say to all women..

      yeah welll…thanks..I guess

    • Zac says:

      10:57am | 28/02/12

      qwerty,

      I would suggest if possible to have a open talk with your partner or husband, if you haven’t done so. It is also a good idea to talk to a good friend who is not a militant secularist or of feminist bend - whose first solution will be separation. If you are Christian go in for a Christian counsellor or a Christian friend not influenced by secular values.

      I was just thinking a truly wonderful man would take into account your feelings, emotional well being and desires. If that is not the case then I think it should be thought through. You may be with a truly wonderful man but does that offer you a truly wonderful and content life? Good idea to think about it very seriously before it is too late.

    • Ben says:

      11:05am | 28/02/12

      Here’s an idea – how about we stop judging women? They don’t have a baby, ooh judge. If they do have one they don’t breastfeed, ooh judge. They don’t wear makeup in public, they wear too much makeup in public, judge judge judge! The always delightful Erick has a point in that male sexism exists, but he is deluded if he thinks it is anything like what women put up with every day!

    • Sandra says:

      11:10am | 28/02/12

      It’s all pretty simple really - the words are harmless.  In this case largely factual.  It is always the tone and context that gives the meaning.  Only those people that were there and PERSONNALLY heard the complete converation/discussion would know the tone and context of the words.  For the rest of us it is mere speculation. 
      I can respect a politician who says they are athiest and then doesn’t go to church etc as a sign of respect for those who hold genuine beliefs.
      There are people of both sexes who chose not to have children or for whom having children is not an option by that due to physical issues or who do not find the right partner at the right time. They still make valuable contributions to our society.  It dose not reneder them incapable of empathising or appreciating the role of bringing up children.
      Anyone can change political views as the experiences of life develop understanding on a wider range of subjects.
      I not that the media is putting a ‘spin’ on the resignation of Mark Ahbib who has indicated the time away from his family as ONE of the reasons for his resignation. ‘They all say that.’ Perhaps they all say it because it is true. As a parent you weigh up the pluses and minuses in every job both professionally and personally. Maybe the scales had tipped to far.

    • amy says:

      11:26am | 28/02/12

      “Anyone who chooses a life without children, as Gillard has, cannot have much love in them.”

      what a judgmental prick…Id liek to see HIM have a child…you know bowling ball through a garden hoase

    • MH says:

      11:31am | 28/02/12

      “childless, atheist, ex-comminist”

      It’s easy to get caught up in emotional debates over the first and second but it’s the third that should be scrutinised.  Julia’s childlessness and atheism - like Tony’s catholicism and childfulness - are personal matters irrelevant to policy and ability to govern.  She should not be judged on them.  The third, however, is fair game.  We really should be asking whether she is at heart communist - or some slightly more moderate version of the same - because this goes to the policy decisions she will make and the direction she would take the country. 

      Let’s take a look at her key policies to date and ask what they really are.  Mining tax - an arbitrary impost on an easy target during a mining boom for the fundamental purpose of wealth redistribution.  Carbon tax - a feelgood sop to the green lobby but fundamentally wealth redistribution under the cloak of environmentalism.  These are the two defining policies of her prime ministership and they are socialist to the core.  It’s not brazenly communist but it is a long long way to the left of centre.

    • Rob says:

      11:36am | 28/02/12

      Folks…lets just remember, there are 7…BILLION resource hungry humans on this planet. Every person who doesn’t have a child, is doing the planet, as well as the other humans on the planet, a massive favour!

    • Lisa says:

      08:06pm | 29/02/12

      Finally, really surprised it took this long into the exchange for this most obvious point to be raised.  Also on the ‘selfish’ charge frequently leveled at the childless, there’s interesting research out there on time spent in volunteering and focusing on ‘careers’ that make a difference, locally and even globally for some childless people. 

      I also find it odd that those reduced to arguing for a ‘wow’ only obtainable through breeding to not see this as a pretty self focused argument for having kids.  YOU is the operate word; there are giving productive parents and giving productive childfree or childless people who are content.  There are judgmental folk who try and impose their lived experience and choices on others as the only valid option in both camps too.  Just like anything else really.

    • sherri says:

      11:48am | 28/02/12

      far too many people don’t ‘choose’ to have children, they just do it because it’s expected, it was an accident, everyone else was doing etc.  Of course the vast majority of these people raise healthy productive humans, but what about those who didn’t think it through and the children whoes experiences range from neglect through to hideously damaged? Choosing not to have children at least involves some careful conderation.

    • Bruno says:

      11:54am | 28/02/12

      Just read the article about Brandis. Nothing wrong there. What Abbott said -
      “the greatest gift that you can give someone, the ultimate gift of giving, and don’t give it to someone lightly.” - is very articulate, I have written it down as future advice. The fact that Gillard felt compelled to attack him over it not only shows she has either no understanding of or no care for a father’s concerns for his daughters but I will also go as far as to suggest it speaks volumes about her past character. But then again maybe she was just being the good politician that she is. An individual’s choice is just that and no one should be deprived of their liberties however are you suggesting that fathers in the 21st century should aspire to raising sl*ts. MEMO - men love sl*ts, we talk about them fondly all the time, we would just prefer that they were married to and raised by someone else. Is that OK?

    • Lyn says:

      12:01pm | 28/02/12

      My parents had 2 children - my brother and myself. Due to a genetic problem my brother was born severely disabled and will need care for the rest of his life.
      I have looked after him and will continue to look after him for the rest of my life. I pray daily that he will die before me because his life without me to look after him (after my parents die as well is too depressing to think about).
      Having a similar genetic make-up as my brother (albeit mine obviously works) there is an increased risk that I myself will give birth to children with the same problem - why would any person knowingly breed if the risk is so great?
      I could always follow the advice of my (former) pastor - God will provide!!
      Of course, God will provide food, clothes and money for care. How could I be so stupid!!!

    • Grandma says:

      12:10pm | 28/02/12

      I’m a middle aged woman who has worked in a number of jobs and have found that childless women have a far different attitude to life. In one job I kept getting sent to training because the woman doing the same job in the other branch could not grasp the system we used. She used to panic at the drop of a hat and run to the bosses with every little problem. I mentioned a situation I had sorted out weeks after it happened, and the boss was surpprised that I had handled it. I said “when you’ve spent years dealing with kids falling off bikes, falling out of trees, needing stitches etc, what happens at work is not really panic worthy.” I was never a career woman, but through my capabilities I reached the same levels as some of them. One other job where the manager was a single woman, I couldn’t handle the bitchiness and favouritism. Her incompetent favourites would be given jobs beyond their capabilities, and I would end up sorting their problems. It suddenly dawned on her one day that I was the best worker she had, and things changed accordingly.

    • bella starkey says:

      12:20pm | 28/02/12

      Have you always been so self satisfied, or did motherhood help you achieve that?

    • clazberri says:

      01:34pm | 28/02/12

      Grandma, I have experienced the complete opposite (i.e., childless women being competent and good at their jobs and the mothers being absolutely useless).  However, I don’t try and pass it off as the norm because I know it’s not.  You can find examples for either side.

    • Lola says:

      02:46pm | 28/02/12

      Oh pfft. PLease don’t give me that sht. Just because you a mother doesn’t mean your lifes heroes and you can handle everything. FFS my mother can’t handle a thing without a dummy spit and flying off the handle and having a tantrum if things don’t go her way.

    • Elaine says:

      09:00am | 01/03/12

      Funny, my experience has been parents lay off work more than the childfree, usually get the days off around holidays as vacation before the childfree, and generally are subject to favortism in the workplace.

    • Anonamouse says:

      12:11pm | 28/02/12

      Amazingly not one person I can see has picked up this is just a column by T Shepherd attempting to justify (publicly as if we care) her own life choices. And toss in a dig at Abbott as you do from the righteous safety of being a childless atheist.

      Big deal.

      If you need to do it do it in private. It shows great hubris to think the majority of people, bugger that, even a minority of people care about what your life has got for you T Shepherd. Deal with your own self doubts in private and spare us.

    • Cobbler says:

      12:30pm | 28/02/12

      The context of Rudds comment was pretty easy to see without even being there.  It was directed at right, religious power-brokers and in essence highlighting the hypocracy of their support for Julia Gillard considering their own normal views.

    • mr g says:

      12:36pm | 28/02/12

      Tory, I must say that I’m at a loss to understand why any of these matters are of any importance. You just give the ignorant and malicious among the readers a carcass to feed on.
      Gillard is judged to be less of a person, (but only by the dullards), because she chooses not to give birth to children. She didn’t take an oath, or anything as honorably binding as that, nor did she promise to be celibate. Abbott did, and then changed his mind when it became apparent that for him, celibacy and abstinence were inconsistent with his re-arranged views.
      I guess that if you are a god-fearing catholic who has sworn to god not to partake of the flesh, and then something comes up, well, a man’s a man for all that. And that is certainly okay, according to Abbott.
      Gillard is an Atheist. She has no belief in the unbelievable. “That is not acceptable”, say the posters here who demand verification of every claim made contrary to their own selfish interests, but strangely, no call for verification of Abbott’s right to influence Australia’s future with ‘statues and beads’ diplomacy and policy.
      All of the ‘communist/socialist innuendo, which was Menzies’ favorite weapon, and also the attack of choice of the slimeball McCarthyists, has outworn its effect. Only those bereft of substance would attempt to re-use the unuseable. Political dinosaurs who have yet to leave the 50s thoughtbowl. Sad really, but indicative of much paucity of reason. Abbottism.
      The great gap between Socialism and Communism is similar to the gap between the Liberal philosophy and Howardism such as is revered by the Abbott camp. Don’t agree? Ask Abbott, “To which institution does your first allegiance belong/”. Ask him.
      I hope Gillard leads this Nation to the next election. And for similar reasons I hope Abbott is still in charge of the quasi-Liberals.

    • Fred says:

      12:36pm | 28/02/12

      The biggest commies in the world are the right wingers expecting bailouts when their big mafioso “businesses” turn sour, constant bribes and lobbying to governments and expecting the RBA to be their little bitch when it comes to interest rates.

      So if you’re a Liberal voter, you’re a commie.

    • Q.Pham says:

      02:14pm | 28/02/12

      Ummmmm, okay Fred, whatever you say, mate (backs away slowly….....)

    • sherri says:

      12:41pm | 28/02/12

      great, so when you want to bang on about your kids, that I’m not interested in and can I tell you to ‘do it in private’?

    • xar says:

      01:13pm | 28/02/12

      They were shameful comments on behalf of those individuals, there should have been far greater outrage than there was.

    • Mummyof4 says:

      01:15pm | 28/02/12

      I believe the real question, for our female AND male leaders who are childless, is do you really understand, empathsize and relate to a predominately family orientated electorate, by choosing not to parent? My personal belief is a big no. I am a mother to four children by choice, but having been on both sides of the argument (ie I used to be a non-parent adult once too you know), becoming a parent (whether by breeding yourself, adopting or fostering) and having a child rely on you ENTIRELY, changes you completely. It changes your psyche. It changes how you look at and view your self and your actions, how you perceive the world and it affects decisions in absolutely EVERYTHING you do, as all decisions ultimately will affect their world. I never used to want kids or get married and never understood the attraction. But those who do not have children, do not get it, and will NEVER get this argument until you see it from the other side and have a somewhat ‘ligh bulb’ moment. Im not advocating that parenting is easy and all roses and pink party dresses - its not - its bloody hard work - but being a parent changes you, makes you see the big picture differently. Hence I do not think that you can be truly effective as a political leader unless you have experienced being a parent.

    • Dave from South Melbourne says:

      01:34pm | 28/02/12

      @ mummy - so, using your logic, a politician who has kids can’t understand what it’s like to be a family without kids? What an insult to the millions of people who choose not to have kids. Are we unable to understand the issues facing families with kids?

    • Zac says:

      01:35pm | 28/02/12

      Mummyof4.

      I agree with you. The problem with the western world is extreme individualism and materialism. It is largely the out come of darwinian philosphies. Some people think few dogs and cats will substitute for humans or babies. Inner city types are more worried about climate because Gore told them it would CHANGE. However the same types will welcome people from countries, culture and religion who will in the long run will out breed us and enslave us with their ideology and beliefs.

    • Sandra says:

      01:41pm | 28/02/12

      You’re kidding right. Just because you don’t have kids of your own doesn’t mean you live in a bubble and aren’t exposed to these issues. I am a parent and agree with how your life changes - but not every parent thinks or feels this way. No-one can experience someone else’s life. I’m female I cannot truely understand how a male responds to what life throws at him. As a Mum of 2 my experiences are different to yours. But to suggest that you have to have experienced being a parent to be a political leader is unfair.

    • amy says:

      01:55pm | 28/02/12

      @Zac

      are you serious?

      see what shits me is people make up reasons

      having kids is a lifestyle choice, some peopel (shock horror) know that its not for them

      do I chastise you for not owning a self-built high end gaming PC and playing Battelfeild 3 untill the sun comes up? No? why not? Battlefeild 3 is awosme, people who dont play it are selfish

    • James1 says:

      02:05pm | 28/02/12

      “The problem with the western world is extreme individualism and materialism.”

      The opposite of individualism is collectivism.  Collectivism is the basis of communism.  Are you advocating for communism, and against the individual freedom we secular conservatives hold so dear?

    • P. Darvio says:

      02:20pm | 28/02/12

      Quote: “The problem with the western world is extreme individualism and materialism”

      and

      “...people from countries, culture and religion who will in the long run will out breed us and enslave us with their ideology and beliefs”

      So….then…..Christians - Populate or Perish !!

      http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/07/14/1215887502895.html

      Come on - get on with it…..your Dear Leader implores you !

      Maybe you can used the “Chicken Breeding Model” those Christian NAZI’s used,

      “Himmler wanted to breed a master race of Nordic Aryans in Germany. His experience as a chicken farmer had taught him the rudiments of animal breeding which he proposed to apply to humans. He believed that he could engineer the German populace, through eugenic selective breeding, to be entirely “Nordic” in appearance within several decades of the end of the war.”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Himmler

    • Zac says:

      02:54pm | 28/02/12

      amy,

      Yes I am serious. In this country unlike China, women including my girls have the freedom to have or not have children. However that comes with consequences. That’s exactly what I have been listing in my comments. Secular/materialistic culture may have complicated you so much, to think having babies is like owning a dog or playing Battle3.

      James1,

      The opposite of individualism is not collectivism rather a balance of both. The key here is EXTREME individualism. The other day I went to a theology session and the lecturer who happens to be a medical doctor told us The Bible neatly promotes a balance of both.

      “Collectivism is the basis of communism.”

      But Collective Communism ended up killing millions to install Atheistic utopia around the world. By the way I reject secularism and embrace democracy - the will of the people.

    • James1 says:

      03:35pm | 28/02/12

      I was just messing with you on extreme individualism Zac - I actually understood that to be your point.

      It seems we disagree on the basis of majoritarian and democratic systems.  I do not see the will of the majority as overriding the freedoms of minorities.  For example, a majority of Australians may be Christians, but it would be undemocratic nonetheless for them to vote away my freedom to be an atheist.  That is why secular democracy is superior to all other forms of government, because the majority, be it Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim or atheist, cannot legislate religion, and thus can not force non-believers to be believers, or force believers to be non-believers.  Every individual needs to decide for themselves, and that is why communism was bad (because it attempted to force people not to believe, among other things), and theocracies are bad (because, even in nominally democratic ones, people are forced to believe).  That is why a democracy that is not secular is a democracy in name only.

      In other words, democracy is worthless if it is simply “majority rules”, as this majority could vote away fundamental freedoms, such as freedom of (or from) religion.  As such, unless it is secular it is not really a democracy, and nothing but another form of theocracy, which is essentially synonymous with authoritarianism.  It just happens the source of that authority is religion, rather than ideology.

      Wow - we are actually having a useful discussion this time.

    • Sarah says:

      04:18pm | 29/02/12

      I don’t need to “get it.”  I never did and never will.  What makes anyone think that I or any woman wants to be “completely changed” by procreating? If you want that life, great.  If you don’t want it, great. And you haven’t really been on both sides of the issue.  You are not a woman who chose to be, happily, childfree for her entire life There’s no way you can know what my life entails by NOT choosing to parent.  I don’t pretend to know what motherhood is like.  More importantly, it really doesn’t matter. And I don’t care what it’s like on your side of the fence.  Never did, never will.

    • Elaine says:

      05:22am | 01/03/12

      “Once upon a time not having a child” does not equal being child free.  Of course you didn’t always have children!

    • Lorrine says:

      01:24pm | 28/02/12

      I was 36 when I had my first kid.  I had been thinking that I wouldn’t bother but then…hmm.  The first thing thats tsruck me was that I suddenly understood why other community members were really passionate about things like health, education, child care etc etc.  Up to then, it was mildly academic, mostly boring but when I was about to feel the personal impact I became alot more interested. - so yeah,  being a parent does make you more grounded in a community I think.  + friends of 20 years or so who were already parents - suddenly told me things that they would never have tshared unless I was in the family club - and being an aunty to 9 nephews didn’t count.

    • Labs (d)rool says:

      04:20pm | 28/02/12

      No, that doesn’t make you “more grounded in a community”, it just makes you selfish in the sense that these issues didn’t have impact on your life before, but now that they do, they are suddenly important.

      And guess what? I don’t have any kids, but “health, education, child care etc etc” are extremely important to me because the well-being of entire society depends on them.

      And as for people sharing things they didn’t before you joined “the family club”?
      I guess your attitude “it’s only important if it applies to ME” might have contributed to that….

    • Lisa says:

      09:24pm | 29/02/12

      oh FFS - the other reply is right on - I’m one of those other community members, passionate, volunteers time for collective gain etc always have done - it didn’t take a a child to kick that off,  just having strong values, ethics and a conscious.

    • Cannibal Queen says:

      01:31pm | 28/02/12

      Apparently, there are people out there who don’t like dogs.  I can’t understand how anyone could fail to love dogs.  But I would never try to persuade one of those people to adopt a puppy.

    • Zac says:

      01:56pm | 28/02/12

      Cannibal Queen,

      Apparently, there are people out there who don’t like human babies.  I can’t understand how anyone could fail to love babies.  But I would never try to persuade one of those people to adopt a puppy - to replace human love.

    • James1 says:

      02:13pm | 28/02/12

      I have to agree there, Zac.  Babies are awesome.  My wife has just fallen pregnant with our second, and I can’t wait.  Thankfully my job allows me to take 6 weeks off at full pay after the birth, too.

    • subotic says:

      03:04pm | 28/02/12

      I LOVE dogs.

      Especially puppies.

      They taste delish…

    • Cannnibal Queen says:

      03:35pm | 28/02/12

      I don’t consider dogs a “replacement” for anything.  They’re just something I happen to like for what they are.  As opposed to something I don’t like:  that’s right, human babies.  You like/want kids, fine - I don’t happen to share your tastes is all.  But whereas I would never presume to tell someone who didn’t like dogs that they ought to adopt a puppy, apparently it’s socially acceptable for some graceless clown I’ve just met to tell me I “should have children” and “don’t know what I’m missing”.

    • James1 says:

      03:54pm | 28/02/12

      Wrong Cannibal Queen.  Subotic has shown us that dogs can clearly act as a replacement for chicken, or pork, or beef…

    • Gone Fishing says:

      07:02pm | 28/02/12

      Totally agree Cannibal Queen. smile

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      02:09pm | 28/02/12

      Tory,
      Why is it only women who get criticised if they don’t have children?
      Like her or not Julia has the right, indeed she is obligated, to make her own decisions with regard to adding more to the already over-populated world!
      How many men are their in the political arena who have never had children? We never hear them being referred to as “childless”. The weird part in all this is that out here in the real world it is mostly women, married or not, with or without children, who are so unbelievably critical of Gillard because she has no children! They criticise her hair-style, her hair colour, her dress sense but hold their greatest condemnation because of the child bit. What is even more ridiculous is that if one, particularly if you are male, take issue with any of these people who,during conversation criticise Gillard for her childless state, whilst at the same time they, too, are childless they fly up into the tree-tops & chatter on about how they “Had made an informed decision not to have children” (are they suggesting Gillard did not do likewise?), or in high-dudgeon turn on you and say something stupid like ” Well!! How dare you criticise me. It is simply none of your business”.
      No, it is none of my business I agrre BUT then why do they presume they have the right to criticise Gillard, or anyone else, for being childless.
      It Is None Of Anyone Else’s Business
      We all have the right to criticise Gillard & any other politician over their policies, their honesty - indeed anything to do with their political life. Their Private lives are just that: Private. If their Private lives involve illegality then we have a right to know.
      Being childless is not, so far as I know, illegal
      If anything being childless should be celebrated..

    • Kika says:

      02:23pm | 28/02/12

      Agreed!!!

    • George says:

      02:14pm | 28/02/12

      THE QUESTION WE SHOULD ALL BE ASKING IS:

      DO THE FACELESS MEN HAVE BABIES WITH FACES?

    • Scotchfinger says:

      08:44pm | 28/02/12

      ‘He who binds to himself a joy
      Doth the winged life destroy
      But he who kisses the joy as it flies
      Lives in Enternitys sun rise’

      William Blake (also childless)

    • onlooker says:

      02:14pm | 28/02/12

      I have read all of these posts, if your a young woman and you don’t feel you can handle children, then do what is right for you. As women we always put everyone else first, especially if your a mum. I am old but one thing I have learned is to live your life as you want to and don’t apologize for it. You can spend your life explaining your choices to other people and at the end of your life all you will have is a bag of explanations. Go out and live it and try to have fun at whatever you want girls. As long as your harming no one it really is no bodies business

    • Testfest says:

      05:03pm | 28/02/12

      @onlooker

      “As women we always put everyone else first, especially if your a mum.”
      I hate to burst your bubble here, but that’s not even remotely close to being true. As it turns out, all women are NOT selfless martyrs. They are just as flawed and imperfect as men.

      “live your life as you want to and don’t apologise for it.”
      Agreed. But take responsibility for the decisions you make and don’t try to blame others for any poor life choices that you have come to regret.

    • girl says:

      02:19pm | 28/02/12

      i have the husband, but you can get bent on having the kids part. i get lots of women that can’t have chldren mouth off because i chose not to have them and they have to do the whole IVF thing.

    • Seth Brundle says:

      02:20pm | 28/02/12

      Every other mammal on the planet is popping out its offspring, then getting back to work the following day.  Its only humans who make a big deal out of it.

    • Zac says:

      02:30pm | 28/02/12

      Seth,

      Well, I don’t find every other mammal on the planet popping up and posting absurd darwinian comments like these. It’s a darwinian belief that we are just like bacteria and virus.

    • Kika says:

      02:32pm | 28/02/12

      Excellent point!!!

    • REality says:

      02:30pm | 28/02/12

      My wife was a teacher before we had kids.

      Parents used to ask her “do you have kids?” in an accusational manor. This used to pee her off immensely, “how dare they imply that because i don’t have kids I don’t understand their needs”, fast forward, two kids later and my wife fully understands why these parents asked her. You have no idea what it’s like raising kids and the struggles that are involved, until you have them.

      From most parents perspective they can only deduce that Julia cannot relate to Australian families because she has no experience. Would you employ an Engineer as a heart surgeon, sure they can read about it , but without the experience and training they won’t have a clue.

      Bit like Julia and her “Hard working Australian families” mantra. It just reaffirms the champagne socialist title.

    • UL says:

      02:34pm | 28/02/12

      I don’t see the problem with not wanting kids, there are plenty of people breeding, I know one woman that is carrying her 7th because the younger one got too old for her to claim benefits and would have had to go back to work, her 17 year old is also pregnant, what a remarkable family.

      I am childless by CHOICE. I am selfish in that I don’t have the ‘maternal’ feelings, children irriate the crap out of me, even my neice and nephew, I don’t coo at babies I DO NOT want them.

      my great aunt had kids because everyone expected it of her and she ignored them for all of their lives and still continues to have nothing to do with them, she had never wanted them.

      isn’t it better that those of us that recognise that we don’t want kids don’t have them rather than bending to public pressure, have them and then they suffer for it?

    • Heath says:

      02:59pm | 28/02/12

      Surely the cost of raising a child far outweighs any financial benefits.

    • subotic says:

      02:45pm | 28/02/12

      I know a number of men who are “mothers”, believe me.

    • Andre says:

      03:57pm | 28/02/12

      Nothing wrong with that, gender equality etc.

    • mr g says:

      04:43pm | 28/02/12

      Andre, I think you may have missed the inference of the inverted commas wrapping. Never mind. Your innocence is so appealing.
      Subotic, I think you may move in my circle. That’s a ‘me too’.

    • paulh says:

      04:22pm | 28/02/12

      Basically Rudd was correct,Ms Gillard is a childless,atheiest communist. Just look up her parliamentry profile.
      What he didn’t elaborate on was,untrustworthy with a contempt of people who have an opinion that differs to hers and a hate of all things democratic.

    • Kathy says:

      05:02pm | 28/02/12

      Exactly!  What did he say that was incorrect?  I accept that if said, it was probably with negative connotations, and probably didn’t need to be said at all.  But, what he said was factual.

    • not everyone breeds says:

      04:24pm | 28/02/12

      There are few things as vicious as a parent telling a childless person that they are worthless if they don’t breed; nor as inflexible as anyone who prefixes their opinion with “as a mother…”.

      It’s a strange twist of personality that makes people wield familial love as a weapon against others: “because I love having children, I must make you feel horrible about your life - it’s my right to cause misery based on my discovery of love”.

      It’s twisted.

    • Nic says:

      04:41pm | 28/02/12

      It’s been happening for centuries and now thanks to the internet; it can be recognised, named and discussed on a global scale.
      But it’s a Darwinian process; the weak strains die off.

    • Azzure says:

      05:52pm | 28/02/12

      I disagree, although I do agree with most of Darwinian processes.

      People who *choose* not to have children in reality could be considered to be further evolved than their breeding counterparts. Remember the process of weak strains dying off is not by choice, its by design, when one makes a choice not to breed they are actually in control of that process.

    • KB says:

      05:07pm | 28/02/12

      I turn 30 this year, and although I know that still gives me time to have children, I accept it probably won’t happen.  Partly medical reasons that means I am unlikely to get pregnant, partly medical issues that mean even if I could get pregnant I would need to think about what medical issues I may be passing to any children, parly because I am too busy with my career / further study to date and hence don’t think I’ll be finding “the one” anytime soon.  I love children, reguarly baby-sit friend’s children, but it isn’t for everyone.  It does frustrate me when people make comments like “oh, you wouldn’t understand, you don’t have kids”. No I don’t, but people act like because of that I live a simple, care-free life with no hassles.  I’m tempted to reply back “No I don’t, but you don’t know what it is like to not be able to have kids, to be seeing multiple medical specialists at one time, while still turnign up to work each day with a smile on my face pretending like everything is ok”.

    • Sarah says:

      08:15pm | 28/02/12

      I know how you feel. I am 25 and have spent the last 7 years dealing with a number of major life threatening health issues. It’s exhausting, and yet I still work full time and struggle on with a smile on my face in between the surgeries, the medical appointments etc, knowing I may have only another 10 years to live . Yet all I get from the parents (siblings, people at work) is how “easy” my life must be, because I don’t have children. It drives me nuts. They have no idea what my life is like! And even worse, they aren’t even interested in hearing about it, they are too busy talking about their kids or looking at them (why are some parents incapable of conversation?), and making me feel like a second class citizen. I am constantly harassed about when am I having kids, and I am only 25! When does it stop? I appreciate that they sacrifice a lot, and I know its a hell of a hard job, but at the end of the day, it was their choice. I didn’t choose to get sick!

    • Childless Mother says:

      05:59pm | 28/02/12

      I’m 28 turning 29 soon, childless and so filled with love! Why don’t I have kids? because I can not afford to, I don’t want to have a kid with my fingers crossed hoping financially we will be safe and that no one ever gets sick.. I cry sometimes knowing I’ll never be a Mother, never having a infant look at me like I am their world and me back in return because they would be.

      I’m a Mother with no child and it will remain that way, reason? who can afford a house in WA? I guess I’m stuck paying part of someone else mortgage

    • Childless says:

      06:18pm | 28/02/12

      I am not able to have kids, I have accepted this but I am sick to death of people ‘guessing’ that it’s a choice because I want a ‘Gucci’ lifestyle.  I am also sick of people saying that because I am childless - this automatically means that I am selfish and self-centred and not contributing to society.  A person can achieve in life, be selfless and altruistic with or without child/ren.  Even if it was a choice that I not have a child - what business is it of yours?  Stop interfering in my life, I don’t tell you how to run yours.  I really wish many of the ones who do have children didn’t.  How many are dependent on the welfare state ‘unwilling’ to support their children?  (Not able to is a different kettle of fish so please note the emphasis on ‘unwilling)

    • Sir Cumference says:

      06:25pm | 28/02/12

      That Latham layabout and the Heffernan bloke (is that the Hugh one?) are nasty chaps aren’t they? There’s no laying down of capes over puddles to protect the glass slipper of the aforementioned person from these two scoundrels, I’ll wager. No, chivalry is fading, sadly, some chaps these days don’t regard the finer feelings of our gentlewomen with any degree of honour, nor respect their protective guardian husbandmen. My bethrothed is not one who want’s children, but is by no means barren. It’s her choice, to be respected, as I do, and Heffiner ought to retract his comment about being not fit to lead, just as my bethrothed, some 40 years my junior, supported me when at a charity dinner, guests whispered to her that my eating habits were gross, and that I wasn’t fit to eat with pigs. She said I was.

    • kitteh says:

      08:44pm | 28/02/12

      With regard to the use of parental status as a political jab, I tend to think it’s ignorant and low, but hardly unique. Politicians take cheap shots at each other over any number of subjects. However, there is (clearly, given many of the comments on this thread) a significant proportion of the general population that also feel the childfree are somehow lesser people, and are quite open with their beliefs. For a person that absolutely wants children, there seems to be no grasping the idea that anyone can feel differently.

      I am childfree, not childless. I actively dislike children and do not intend to have them. Having pretended for my whole life that I don’t feel this way, I am now honest when someone pushes (and they do). The reaction is utter horror and inevitably, ‘YOU’LL REGRET IT!!!!’ Maybe, but I doubt it. I don’t want a ‘Gucci lifestyle’. I’m not a cold, unfeeling monster. I didn’t make this as a career decision. I JUST DON’T WANT KIDS. Some people do. Big deal.

      None of the arguments posited here about CF people bear weight.
      -They are not incompetent for certain jobs due to a lack of children - that’s like saying a doctor can’t treat a cancer if he hasn’t had one himself. Empathy involves more than shared experiences.
      -They are not cold and selfish - many contribute to the community, have a variety of friends, work in caring professions and are generous with time and money. In fact, hormones linked with mothering are also associated with increased selfishness.
      -They are not biologically flawed - there are 7 billion people in the world; in contrast to what many people believe, not all animal species will procreate until resources are exhausted. Rabbits reabsorb litters when conditions are poor and overcrowded, for instance.
      -They don’t ‘owe’ people with children anything in particular. Sure, maybe your kids will wipe my butt in my old age, but it’s my money that will provide them with a job. The CF pay high taxes already; adding fawning gratitude on top of that seems a bit rich. Besides, what makes you sure your child will be a contributing member of society?
      -They have no more risk of dying old and alone than people with children - having volunteered in aged care homes previously, I can assure you that having kids is no guarantee of a happy old age.

      In general, I have noticed men and older women are far less judgemental of the CF life. They also tend to be more open about their own ambivalent feelings towards their children. The ‘cult of mommy’ is a relatively new phenomenon, too - it actually seems less acceptable to be CF now than it was in the 70s! I think there is has been a definite push towards family and procreation as the economy has tanked. Why? Maybe to create more consumers, and get parents to buy, buy, buy by playing on their ego and guilt?

    • M says:

      09:03pm | 28/02/12

      I am going to a child’s birthday party this weekend and I’m dreading it. The mother is the wife of my partner’s best mate, and she has a gaggle of girlfriends who, if they deign to talk to me at all, want to know why after ten years together my bf are neither married nor engaged. And since they’ve all started popping out kiddies, they want to know when (assuming I will) we will do the same. Don’t get me wrong, I understand that nobody can ever ‘afford’ kids and you somehow make do, but my partner’s entire wage pays off our home loan. And since we would want me to give up my job if we were to have kids, we would need to be in a better position financially first. In the meantime, if you don’t mind, I’ll keep going to work to pay my taxes, ie your baby bonus, paid maternity leave and family allowances - all things I’ll probably never receive myself.  And I’d prefer not to cop any judgment about my childless status from the recipients of these handouts. This is a decision we’ve made, and we’re both happy living with its consequences (nobody made us buy this house or get a big loan). If we found ourselves suddenly preggers we’d be quite happya nd would find a way to make it work, but we’re not pining either. We are proud of our nieces and nephews, love being the cool aunt and uncle, and have great friends and interests, so no regrets thusnfar. When we hear kids screaming tantrums in the supermarket there is a mental high five that it’s not us. And yes, maybe one day we will both regret this decision, but that’s OUR possible problem.  So I don’t see why every BBQ, christening, housewarming, etc I should be expected to go into my life choices / ovary status with distant acquaintances.  For the record, I have thus far skirted the issue with them, as has a very close friend in the same situation, however this time I’d love to bust out with this one http://www.garfunkelandoates.com/2011/12/16/pregnant-women-are-smug-by-garfunkel-and-oates/
      just for fun… Either that or, eh eh eh, I think I’m getting a terrible cold and wouldn’t want to pass it on to the little darlings. Better stay home…
      And while I’m at it, I’m no Julia Gillard fan, but I’m with her on (only) this. I can think of a million better reasons to dislike her than her choices on children.

    • Noelene says:

      09:55pm | 28/02/12

      Marley
      Chifley was childless because his wife was barren.You would have to be a bit twisted to attack a man who obviously wanted children but couldn’t have them.
      Gillard has never wanted children,there is a difference.She has the right to choose,just as people have the right to choose to be religious or atheist.
      You try so hard to paint Abbott as a fanatic,yet his daughter called him a churchy loser.So he didn’t force his beliefs on his children,why would he force his beliefs on the rest of Australia?
      It may surprise you to know that I am not a catholic,yet I do not believe in gay marriage.Civil unions should be the go.
      Why do religious people have to give up their right to choose who they marry because fanatics demand it?Gillard wants to stomp all over the right of people who believe marriage is a covenant before God.That’s why they get married in a church.
      If churches want to have civil unions for gays that’s their choice,if they don’t that’s their choice.
      lol @ Sir cumference believing that Gillard wants or deserves chivalry.She’s quite the lady isn’t she?Is there a woman alive today who wants chivalry?We are all bitches.Admit it.
      I read this article and nowhere do I see a quote that somebody believes that all women should be mother.Some believe that as prime minister she is out of touch with families,a fair point.Others believe she is hard because she chose career over children,she did so it’s a fair point too.At the end of the day it is her lies that will finish her,not the fact that she chose a career over children,

    • Jolly says:

      12:11am | 29/02/12

      Noelene, your conclusion is simply fabulous. You hit the nail on the head. The character of the person, with or without children, is what marks the person. This topic is so geared to create sympathy for good old Gillard. Some of her ‘advisors’ are behind this move to create ‘sympathy’ followings because she is childless (ie playing the ‘victim’ card). Some other tactic used was to attract sympathy voters because ‘she is being persecuted for being a woman’. She plays the ‘gender card’. Gillard is not famous for her empathy’, or her honesty. She is a ruthless woman and is famous for ‘eating her own’. “Polls mattered” when she knifed Rudd. “Polls don’t matter” when she was being challenged. She has no moral compass. She competes with Abbott for the maximum damage she can do to refugees, whilst closing an eye to the millions of illegal migrants in this country. She is untrustworthy. A leader without TRUST is no leader at all. Being a women, not being married, or being childless are of no relevance to truth. Let’s not get sucked into this orchestrated strategy (the unwitting victim) by her minders. This topic is a red herring to distract us from the important thing: trust and integrity in leadership

    • daylight robbery says:

      05:19am | 29/02/12

      Oh com on, some of the best race horses come from bunky stock.  Danny Devito wouldnt have made Gattica; like, the best sci fi movie ever.

      But yes, any political stoush on Julia Gillard about children is a discrimination on women having freedom to have a career.  There is a lot of women around choosing to do this. 

      The modern world is geared that many only afford fewer children although taxpayer financial support underpins a social trap for many that will lead to some children being left to their own devices or neglect when the money runs out or the wheels fall off that new car bought with maternity leave money.

      Theres way too much guilt perpetuated in the OECD.  Educated people know why religious factions dont want contraception introduced in a particular religion alas followers drop by the wayside or another become dominant because families of 10 are expected. 
      But what about the women.  Some are simply shagged and run ragged when they don’t need be in a modern and third world.  Denying women choice of contraception in this world is abuse and on many occasion its men who perpetuate that guilt and abuse.
      Anyone going near Julia Gillard on children has entered a world 50% of the planet admire in a range of degree. Force-field up.. Any shots fired may bounce back.

    • monique says:

      06:13am | 29/02/12

      I actually find it insulting that people assume that because I don’t have children I somehow have a glamorous selfish lifestyle?

      So to all the childless people out there
      - do you not interact with your family and friends (those with and with out children)
      -do people not rely on you for help
      - are you not part of your community
      and are you some how taking things away from people with children?

      Sure if you are totally isolated and spend your days throwing money around on yourself to the detriment of those around you then yep you aren’t really a nice person and well, thank god you haven’t had children!

      But I don’ t understand where no children= selfish and glamourous life style

      Most of us just do our best, trying to make our own lives better and the lives of the people we care about better

    • Valk says:

      06:44am | 29/02/12

      I couldn’t care less for Rudd or Gillard one way or the other BUT everyone seems to be ignoring the rest of his sentence in this conversation.

      The whole thing, directed and one of the people involved in ousting him, went:

      “I’ve been wondering how you reconcile your conservative brand of Catholicism with a childless, atheist, ex-communist as Labor leader,”

      So the implication is that Catholicism involves the direct opposite: lots of children, belief in God and conservatism.

      I would actually say describing conservative Catholicism as the opposite of being without kids, religion and having taken an interest in communism as fairly accurate.

      The two seem quite polar to me.

      In that context, especially being a religious man himself, it seems the main purpose of Rudd’s sentence was to call the person he was speaking to a hypocritic.

      (Note, I’m non-religious but not an atheist, I have no kids but love & value them, and am non-partisan. I assess every question and scenario on a case by case basis so I have no personal bias one way or the other).

    • daylight robbery says:

      09:19am | 29/02/12

      He surely must be a fool to attempt that. An older percentage of Catholics are still in that no sex before marriage realms that some politicians try to pull with the anti-atheist comments.

      Much of the modern Catholic is highly educated, more likely to use contraception, not anti-atheist, and more likely to be accommodating of other religions than some atheists would. No I’m not Catholic.

      The Ruddinator or the Abbotiser for that matter would be a fool to pull that manoeuvre as not only many older Catholics but the young see straight through it.
      Were not in America.

    • Ian1 says:

      06:55am | 29/02/12

      Hmm, contribute your genetic material by way of offspring into this world going forward?  You must be a believer.

    • Britney says:

      07:09am | 29/02/12

      I’m 35. Never had kids. Never will. And I’ve never felt it necessary, and never felt a deep yearning to be a mother.  My mum always told me ‘you don’t have to have kids’. And I thought ‘good’. This isn’t the main reason why I just couldn’t be bothered raising children, but part of it is that I didn’t think back to my childhood in glowing terms. I was very loved, but both my brother and I were abused, and I have seen how deeply it’s shaped our sense of self, and sense of security in the world. And part of me loves the idea of protecting children so much, that the best way I can think to do that would be to keep them from entering into this world altogether. Not healthy, but I just wanted to throw another angle into this discussion to give people the sense that there are very many reasons women don’t want to have kids ranging from ‘just cos’, to ‘i hate kids’ to ‘i can’t have kids’ to ‘i have genetic diseases i don’t want to pass on’, to the reasons I have given. It’s not one size fits all reason here.

    • Melissa says:

      09:12am | 29/02/12

      I’m in the same boat - though as the eldest I took the brunt my my sisters. I always wondered if I would become like my parents if the right buttons were pushed and I’m not prepared to take that risk.
      So I guess my contribution to society is not bringing children into this world to find out if the adage “abusees become abusers” is always right.

    • Lauren says:

      07:23am | 29/02/12

      7 billion people. That is all.

    • Scott says:

      07:33am | 29/02/12

      @Ali. You proved Elphaba’s point. Your comments (“I used to think my awesome career was so important - ptah! - it pales in comparison to my little one and watching her achievements. Many of my friends can’t even have kids and it is very upsetting for them to see those who can have them not doing so simply because they don’t want to give up some lame guicci lifestyle.”) just prove that your opinions and pity towards the childless are just your own self centred issues.

      I am married and do not intend having kids & I feel that I am making a responsible decision for a range of reasons, including medical reasons.  I am also giving up a high paying IT career to retrain as a paramedic because I am not satisfied with the corporate career as well. I want to make a difference and serve my community in a very hands-on role. I have also been doing a lot of volunteer work for organisations like the RSPCA. I have also spent many hours being a defacto counsellor to friends, family and colleagues listening to all their issues & dramas about their children. All the time being there for them and never having them reciprocate and often minimalising my issues. In my experience I often find that parents do not support their childless friends, and generally expect them to make many more allowances for them.

    • Mel says:

      10:04am | 29/02/12

      I hear you. I am expected to babysit my nieces and nephews (for free) whenever they desire, and to give them wonderful gifts at birthdays and Christmas. What do I get in return? Nothing. I needed help moving house, and was told “we’re busy, we’ve got kids”. I don’t even get a phone call on my birthday, or a gift at Christmas, because “we were too busy buying gifts for the kids”. Recently I was hospitalised for 3 weeks and none of my siblings visited me or even called me to ask how I was. And yet I visited each and everyone of them (7 total) and brought flowers and gifts when they gave birth, even when it was really inconvenient. I have decided that I’ve had enough and will no longer babysit, but I will continue to give gifts for my neices and nephews sakes at least. And the whole time if I ever try to talk about my problems in life, they either get distracted by their kids and walk away or tell me its trivial (as nothing compares to the problems of raising kids). Yet I sit and listen to them talk for hours about pooey nappies and which school to send their kids too. Its so one-sided. I keep trying to find parents who aren’t like this, and unfortunately its a rare breed. It really turns me off having kids as I don’t want to become like that.

    • Scotchfinger says:

      11:25am | 29/02/12

      @Mel, I wouldn’t let these experiences turn you off having kids. It’s true that becoming a parent is like joining a club (I joined 2 years ago), and also a truism that young children tend to become the center of your life whether you like it or not. But it’s a bit like single people not wanting to go out with couples: neither attitude is right or wrong, just different. However remember that despite having a new baby, you are still yourself and you don’t really have to change, it’s just that some people use their kids as an excuse to become even more self-centred. Family members definitely shouldn’t let the clubby nature of kids/no kids come between themselves, but then again, sometimes a rift is just a rift.

      PS your kids (if you have them) will always visit you in hospital no matter what, at least when they are young.

    • Mel says:

      02:31pm | 29/02/12

      Thanks Scotchfinger. It just saddens me that becoming a parent is the ultimate excuse to become a bad friend, brother, sister, co-worker etc. I guess now that I have seen this side of it I will have to make a conscious effort to not go down that path. I get that its a “club”, but there are plenty of other “clubs” I will never be a part of - black, lesbian, disabled, red head etc. No one seems to discriminate me in any other way than being childless.

    • Scotchfinger says:

      02:53pm | 29/02/12

      I’m a redhead. Trust me, not a club you want to join ha ha.
      Good luck, am sure you will be great whether a mum or not.

    • Paul says:

      08:15am | 29/02/12

      “‘you’d be good at it and you’d love it’ – and it was such a refreshing change from years of ‘your life must be empty, fix it’.”...perfect grin

    • Cheese says:

      09:19am | 29/02/12

      I have no desire to have children. None. Zero. Nada. I’m terrible with babies and children, lack the patience and the idea of being responsible for another human being for the rest of my life and theirs, scares the living shit out of me - let alone having to deal with labour.

      I am not immature, but a responsible 30 year old woman. I am fulfilled in every other aspect of my life - I’m in a long term loving realtionship, I have wonderful family and friends, I enjoy my job and I am generally pretty happy with things the way they are.

      I am not going to have a child, just because it is seen as the “next step” in my relationship.

    • thedon says:

      09:25am | 29/02/12

      It is a sad day when you can’t make a factual statement, without it being used to somehow equate you with the devil or worse. Julia Gillard is childless, is an atheist and ex communist. All Rudd was suggesting to the representative of a particular union as I understand it, is that Gillard’s beliefs, politics and life example as a leader did not exactly fit with the particular unions stated right left position, ideological bias on related policy. While I have no time for Rudd, how hypocritical do you have to be to suggest that he can’t tout himself as more suited aligned to that unions stated position as a potential leader with a family, who believes in God and was never seduced by communism.

    • Iggy Crash says:

      10:17am | 29/02/12

      The only time I’m have a problem with people who don’t habe children is when they tell me my child isn’t welcome at social gatherings (unless the host has specififed no children) or when they treat me differently or look down on me because I have a child. This goes both ways, some parents and annoying burkes and some childfree people are awful shrews.

    • Scotchfinger says:

      01:10pm | 29/02/12

      @Zopo,

      Still, have fun trying to conceive, and remember it may take a while. Suggest you don’t think getting pregnant is like falling of a log, ‘cause it ain’t, but good luck…

    • Lilly864 says:

      03:57am | 02/03/12

      And one problem I have with people wh ohave children is when they assume that their child is welcome everywhere.  Another thing I can’t stand is when they look down on me because I don’t have a child.  This goes both ways indeed.

    • Zopo says:

      10:52am | 29/02/12

      My wife and I have been married 3 years (together for 10) we are around 33 yrs old. The only question we are ever asked is “Do you have kids?”, “Why not?”

      Which is probably the rudest question to ask people. We will one day hopefully have kids. We just felt we weren’t ready yet. Some say that’s selfish, which I can understand but at the same time I think it is just as selfish to have a kid just for the sake of it.

      Hopefully it wont be a decision we will regret but saying that our relationship is very happy and healthy so when we do have kids we are giving ourselves the best chance to bring a child into a happy family.

      Who are others to judge?

    • amy says:

      01:06pm | 29/02/12

      how is it selfsih? who are you helping by having a child? it really does baffle me

      its mroe selfish to have your own than to adopt

    • Yesyou says:

      12:12pm | 29/02/12

      In a society where the chidfree get way more respect than the Casey Anthonys ever will (I know quite a few people who advocate the death penalty for any woman who kills her own child outside the womb, myself included), I’m not really surprised at Rudd’s comments. Rudd lives in Ozzie and Harriet land and because he is a man, has no concept whatsoever of childbirth and child rearing. He best keep his trap shut.

    • jolly says:

      02:35pm | 29/02/12

      What Rudd said were facts. Gillard is all those. So what? Rudd never came on the media to publicly announce those Gillard facts. It was a private conversation in a pub.  What the hell are we getting all worked up? Gillard is after the sympathy and gender vote. Her minders are keeping this topic on heat and we must not fall prey to the “I am a victim” sentiment in order to get votes. Children. marriage, faith and political leanings are personal matters. There are no correct or wrong choices. Let’s brush off this debate. We women have more important things to concern about. Domestic violence, sexualisation of young girls,  more opportunities for women up the cooperate hierarchy, equal pay for women in all sectors of employment, women’s health issues and appropriate funding, etc, etc.

    • Ingrid says:

      02:47pm | 29/02/12

      I had two children (grown-up now). Caring for them became the most important learning curve of my life.  I am grateful for everything they taught me about life and living.  Bless you both!

    • Kari says:

      07:28pm | 29/02/12

      I am not in Australia, but in Norway, found this story linked on G+. I am 46 and child-free, and an agnostic. The agnostic part is not a problem here in Norway, hardly anyone bothers with religion here, but the child-less/free part is still a problem for so many people. I feel that kids have become a status-symbol here in Norway. People keep popping them out, but don’t have time to take care of them themselves. That is more and more the job of kindergartens, schools and before and after-school programs. I work in a school and I see how it is. The kids are dropped off at beforeafter school-program at 7:30 and picked up again at 4:30 pm. That’s a LONG DAY for a kid! Why bother having them when you don’t have time for them at all and expects society to raise them for you? Status, status, and peer pressure. I live a full life without kids, thank you very much. I have my job (school office)and my volunteer job (cat shelter). I have friends and hobbies. I am a normal woman, don’t feel sorry for me, don’t pity me, don’t bother me about the children thing. I am doing just fine, thank you. Society needs to stop this having children pressure. It’s ridiculous.

    • jolly says:

      08:42pm | 29/02/12

      Without these parents “popping them out”, and “dropping them off at your kindergarten”, you’d have no job Kari. No kids = no kindergarten =no school office = no society + no nation. Goodbye Kari.

    • Elaine says:

      05:58am | 01/03/12

      Ali - lol, Gucci lifestyle? 

      I’m not getting into all the reasons I am not having kids, I’ve typed it or said it about eleventy bazillion times in my adulthood.  I just wonder why so many parents out there assume the childfree all have tons of money and only want to spend their money on things like Gucci purses, Hermes scarves and sports cars?

      In regard to those things, whatever floats their boat and whatever makes them happy.  I for one care nothing about fancy brand names nor do I care about cars, other than they are a means of transportation.  I like to spend my money on local microbrews, handmade paraben and SLS free bath and cosmetic products made by small companies within my country, chocolates from local small businesses and clothing made by designers within my country.  I also spend my money on locally grown produce, small grocery chains and seeing local musicians play.

      As far as my research has found, there are no Wal Mart stores in Australia, but I have no doubt a huge portion of the world’s population knows what a Wal Mart is and what a scourge a Wal Mart is.  In the United States, I have been accused of being selfish and materialistic by parents who have to buy their growing children multiple pairs of shoes and outfits they are going to outgrow in a minute.  They have to have matching accessories, and they have to have at least 20 presents per kid, per Christmas, under the holiday tree.  Huge numbers of these items are bought from Wal Mart, a company which wrecks local economies and many of the branchs’ employees get treated like ****.  Even if they’re not shopping at Wal Mart, parents are contributing way more waste to this planet than am I or any other childfree person I know.  They have to have all that prepackaged food, the disposeable diapers, the juice bottles; they have to trade in their mini vans or family vehicles every four years.  They buy their kid a meal in a restaurant, and the kid takes one bite out of it, and the rest gets thrown away.

      And whom have I heard the most, complaining about being broke?  Parents, not childfree.  Their darlings have to have the best of every material item plus they’re overscheduled in activities that cost tons of money.

    • Liz says:

      09:56pm | 02/03/12

      I’m 32 and career driven, an atheist, a vegan and childless.  My husband has had a vasectomy (pre our relationship) and I’m not prepared to go through fertility treatment in order to feel as if I’m pleasing society.  I don’t know if I want to be a mother and see no need in finding that answer out the hard way. 

      I have been the recipient of flak for the last 5 years in particular from people who believe they know what’s better for me than me - apparently I menstruate sand. Ouch. My idea of a perfect world? One where people spend less time criticizing everybody else and instead look to what positive changes they can make in this lifetime.

    • Bron says:

      02:28am | 03/03/12

      I’d make a terrible mother, yet people seem to think I should have kids anyway. I do not understand it.
      But hey, if society really wants more kids with mental issues running about, then I guess I’ll do my duty and get to work on makin’ ‘em.

    • Mik says:

      10:21am | 03/03/12

      Nuns are childless and are often greatly admired by those of their religion. Some have been good people, others not. Some childless people are decent people, others not. Some people with children are decent people, others not (otherwise there would be no need for child protection departments). Many little chidren in Australia have suffered at the hands of their parents and the past is full of adults who were parents making others’ little children suffer. Childlessness is not the issue.

    • Elizabeth says:

      08:40am | 04/03/12

      I’m 54 and have no children by choice, although there are some people who simply will never believe people choose not to have kids, there must be some deep murky problem. I’m past the age of caring what people think and it always puzzled me why people, especially women, care so much about the reproductive intentions of others. It was clear to me at an early age that I was unlikely to have a child, but also knew it was socially unacceptable to say so…a teacher once admonished me in front of the class for listing the things I wanted to do in life and not including children. I found people, mainly women, were judgmental and rude, and so I avoided the topic and decided not to respond to baiting…..now safely on the other side, I’m happy to tell people we chose not to have a child, because I think it’s important that people understand not all women and men change their minds. Acceptance can only occur when people start to see it as a real choice. We’re part of loving families and have close relationship with our nephews, one even lives with us as we live closer to the University. We support my elderly mother and have helped most members of the family with loans and gifts…I guess we consider the nephews, children of the family. As more people see there is nothing sinister about the childfree, they are just someone’s sister, uncle or friend, attitudes will change. My husband and I were never sufficiently interested to have a child of our own, but have lots of love for our families and friends and get lots of love in return, I know my brothers love their kids having child free aunts and uncles (they have them on both sides of the family) - their kids get opportunities and are exposed to all sorts of experiences because of that fact…I’ve taken our older nephew overseas with me several times on business trips that coincided with school
      holidays…he was studying Japanese and so he joined me for 2 weeks in Kyoto while I was working there…the child free are not child-haters or cold people, just as not all parents are one way or the other.

    • Luke says:

      03:12pm | 04/03/12

      “But the ‘childless’ tag has been used before and will be used again. And it’s a simple fact. So why does it pack such a venomous punch?”
      IT DOESNT…
      The stories are made up to make the accuser seem bad not the accused…
      DERRRRRRRRRRR

    • Luke says:

      03:12pm | 04/03/12

      “But the ‘childless’ tag has been used before and will be used again. And it’s a simple fact. So why does it pack such a venomous punch?”
      IT DOESNT…
      The stories are made up to make the accuser seem bad not the accused…
      DERRRRRRRRRRR

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