In the Navy, you can draw up lists with ease. In the Navy you can ... Picture: ADF

The spread sheet is well laid out and user friendly, with a simple Wimbledon-style draw where after six rounds a clear winner is declared and the top eight rankings are listed on a league table.

It is elegant and efficient in its design, as you would expect from a product created inside one of the world’s biggest accounting firms.

Headshots of the contestants appear to have been sourced from the mega-firm’s intranet but the prize isn’t a silver trophy like at the All England Lawn Tennis Club – it’s the honour of being named the hottest chick in European office of Deloittes.

The only difference between this and what happened on board the HMAS Success is that this 2007 spread sheet was probably viewed by thousands of people around the world, instead of a handful of sailors who likely didn’t get anywhere near the bunks of their documented prey.

Deputy Prime Minister Julia Gillard has warned the existence of “The Ledger,” a book of female targets for sex aboard the HMAS Success, might turn some women off the idea of a career at sea.

She’d better extend her warning to the legal, accounting, hospitality, medical, media, construction, and yes, political industries – or just about any field where there’s lots of men and lots of women at work.

Opposition defence spokesman Bob Baldwin even reminded us at the weekend of the infamous arrangement between Mark Latham and Joel Fitzgibbon to see who could sleep with a Coalition staffer first. They wouldn’t have been the first, and they won’t be the last people to use political power to get what they want in the bedroom.

Just two months ago a Liberal Party member was asked to take down a blog post in which he claimed the party had the “hottest girls” in politics, and obligingly provided photographs of the top contenders.

And despite enormous developments in corporate policy introduced by HR departments around the world in the past decade, this kind of thing goes on everywhere.

But unlike the Navy, most employers don’t have routine “equity and diversity health checks,” to root it out. And the RAN should be praised for the way it handled the HMAS Success story (no pun intended).

The blokes who drew up the document, which put a price on women colleagues depending on their rank and sexual orientation (with extra points if you had sex on the pool table – very exotic) have been sent home.

There’s now an investigation underway, which has a good chance of turning up the embarrassing possibility no-one privy to “The Ledger” actually got to claim a pay out.

And the captain of the Success, Commander Simon Brown, seems to have the whole thing under control. The women who work for him should feel good about it, and probably have bigger things to worry about aboard the Auxiliary Oiler Replenishment vessel than what dollar figure was put on them by a group of stupid men.

Surely more important than whether this kind of things goes on (because it does, and always will) is how employers handle it.

Just ask Christina Rich, who settled out of court with PriceWaterhouseCoopers early last year over sexual harassment claims. While her case differed in the details from the bets, lists and ranking systems I’m talking about, her ordeal uncovered a culture at the firm which saw some women who did not “play the game” sidelined.

It was about the time of her legal battle that the spread sheet from the European office of Deloittes was circulated widely here.

It seems pretty harmless. The photos are just headshots of women, who are all dressed in professional attire and those who created it and passed it on would have looked at it as a bit of fun with no consequences.

But for all minor difference in detail between it and the Supply’s “Ledger”, it’s essentially the same thing. And it’s a sophisticated example of the kind of ranking that goes on in workplaces all over the world every day.

Your daughter’s got just as much chance ending up on one these lists at a respectable financial or legal firm as she does in the military.

54 comments

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    • James says:

      08:35am | 07/07/09

      Finally a bit of perspective on this issue.  Defence force personnel are humans just like the rest of us! Shock Horror!

    • Allan says:

      08:42am | 07/07/09

      The ADF is much better off having mixed gender units as it reminds everyone in these units what our society is all about, respect and tolerance between people.
      To go back to single gender groups would be a retrograde step.
      Look at the problems that various sporting organisations are having with single sex groups, unfortunately mainly male.
      As Tory points out that Navy and by extension the ADF is dealing with an issue that most organisations probably still trivialise and it will be an issue that will be constantly ongoing like substance abuse and bullying.
      Standards have been set and if there are staff that don’t comply with those standards there are consequences such as dismissal.

    • Peter says:

      09:42am | 07/07/09

      Ah, Tori, I want my military to be a bunch of hard-arsed blood-and-guts types, not a clique of latte-sipping sensitive new age guys.  These people fight wars, not redecorate your living room. 

      The notion that the military faces ‘equity and diversity health checks’ just goes to show what a weak ineffectual, feminised waste of taxpayers money the Australian military has become.  We spend $26billion per year - and what do we get for it?

      Only one battation which is deployable to hot zones (the SAS), no air force (that would survive in any real war more than 30 minutes) and a navy that can’t man its subs and has no substantial modern surface capacity.

      The military is there to kill people.  Kill lots of people.  We hope that they don’t have to, but that is their job.  Live fast and possibly die young.  The Duke of Wellington described his army as ‘the scum of the earth’ - but they still beat Napoleon. 

      Unfortunately, too many people see our military as nothing more than an opportunity to turn it into a politically-correct Outward Bound.

    • Eric says:

      09:44am | 07/07/09

      It’s good to see a sane point of view surfacing.

      Let’s see an end to the male-bashing hysteria that prevails among the media and politicians.

    • John K says:

      10:00am | 07/07/09

      So what if they had a goal of sleeping with as many women as possible. That’s not illegal is it? Women still have the right to turn them down. I worked in a place where there was an email going round the women rating the top 10 men in the workplace. I was only offended because I wasn’t on it.

    • Deborah says:

      10:21am | 07/07/09

      “So what if they had a goal of sleeping with as many women as possible. That’s not illegal is it?”

      Actually yes, ever heard of sexual harassment?

      Great work goal, I hope it went on their CV’s!

      I guess if you only see women as breasts, bums and vaginas on legs, you cannot understand anything about ‘pack’ mentality, victimisation and ‘fun’ vs sexual predator.

      “Women still have the right to turn them down”

      They had no business targeting the women in the first place, women have the right to a safe, protected workplace environment, where they are not pressured for sex by neanderthals.

    • joe2 says:

      10:27am | 07/07/09

      “Surely more important than whether this kind of things goes on (because it does, and always will) is how employers handle it.”

      The behaviour was ugly in any workplace and no matter what industry.  Sure there is going to be sexual interaction of staff , particularly in a tightly knit community like the navy, but this kind of thing is just plain crass. And there is no reason why an employer or a captain should not attempt to stamp out such blokey harassment.

    • Eric says:

      10:40am | 07/07/09

      Men have a right to a safe, protected workplace environment, where they are not persecuted for expressing natural behaviour.

      It is sheer misandry to penalise men for sex in the workplace, while not applying those standards equally to women who consent to it.

      It’s time for men to demand equal treatment.

    • Deborah says:

      11:00am | 07/07/09

      “Men have a right to a safe, protected workplace environment, where they are not persecuted for expressing natural behaviour.”

      Are they being paid to defend our shores or to have as many sexual conquests as possible?

      You confuse natural behaviour with predatory behaviour - obviously in your world men are never expected to practice any self control or personal restraint whilst at work?

      Professionalism and civil behaviour must be lost on the ‘natural’ men.

    • Eric says:

      11:03am | 07/07/09

      What’s “predatory” about this behaviour?

      If women consent to sex, then it’s fine. If they say “no”, and the men leave them alone, that’s also fine.

      There is no evidence that any “predatory” behaviour has occurred on the part of sailors.

      However, the behaviour of politicians and the media has been predatory—attempting to destroy innocent sailors’ careers just because they happen to be men, in order to push a misandrist political agenda.

      This is an attack on all men.

    • m says:

      11:04am | 07/07/09

      I have a boss who was dishonourably discharged from the navy for sexual harrassment and conduct unbecoming who has since carried on this behaviour in the private sector.
      Despite more than one harrassment action in previous office being brought against him he still drunkenly gropes his female staff and mouths ‘i love you’ with a wink.
      The female staff have zero respect for a man like this and after a year of witnessing this behaviour I’m moving on. Even though i seem to the only female member of staff he hasn’t had a go at (no I’m not insulted). Perhaps he knows that i would have the guts to stand up to him and not let him get away with it.

      Regardless of if someone is in the Navy or the private sector creating a culture where people are valued for their sexual attractiveness or prowess is dangerous and distracting from fighting for your job or country.

    • Eric says:

      11:16am | 07/07/09

      m,

      I have seen no claim that sailors were drunkenly groping women in the workplace. That’s completely different (and unacceptable) behaviour.

      Once again, nobody has actually managed to come up with anything to show that these sailors behaved in an improper way. All we have is feminists getting upset as men over nothing, as per usual.

      Unfortunately, the behaviour of feminists has consequences in the real world, as men are unfairly penalised just for being male. That’s the sexist society we live in.

    • Zanthie says:

      11:29am | 07/07/09

      I am a current female sailor in the RAN and the bullying and sexual harrassment does occur frequently. If you go out in Port with the boys the groping that occurs in all levels (officers through to sailor, male and female) is astounding. The undressing (with their eyes) when they look at you is awful and not at all inconspicuous. Yes, there are nice people in the Defence Force, just not a lot.
      You do not complain. If you complain you get the name of being a trouble maker, and thus in a small community, you cannot escape it.
      I am currently on my way out of the RAN (and no I am not bitter about it). I have experienced such extreme bullying that I have just gotten sick of it.
      The Chief of the Defence Force and the Chief of Navy are doing a fabulous job trying to stamp out these behaviours. This culture change is going to take a LONG time. Hopefully it is supported by everyone in the RAN, especially the Senior Sailors who can encourage these behaviours.

    • YT says:

      11:34am | 07/07/09

      Tory, it’s not so much an issue in workplaces where there are “lots of men and lots of women” working.  In my experience, it’s more of an issue in workplaces where there are “lots of men” working in positions of authority over “few women”, who are often in positions of subordination.

      That said, men who experience sexual harassment should also be protected.  But those people who think this is a campaign against men, have a think about whether you’d like to see your wife/daughter/mother/sister treated this way in the workplace. Women do not “want” or “like” this attention in the workplace. 

      The behaviour uncovered in the Navy is the sort of thing you’d expect in the playground of a high school.

      The women were “wooed” without being told that this was part of a competition - it’s predatory behaviour and abhorrent.  They were treated as objects collected, like on a computer game, not like human beings with feelings.  How will the poor women feel now - especially those who were high scoring because of the bonus points gained for bedding the less attractive?

    • glory francis says:

      11:38am | 07/07/09

      M I’d say there’s a few balls in your pants and eric your spot on ,mens rights yadda,yadda,yadda, but in all honesty men will and women will ,where ever they are within coo"ee of each other,it is after all only natural to spruke about one another and apart from “someone” finding this childish,playful,sexist” or what ever you want to yell about it piece of paper,Boys will always be boys and girls “real ones”{ yes there is a lot of doubt about Julia} will always answer the calls or whistles or whatever, when ever they like.There are no and never will be any boundries no matter what laws are in place, when it comes to who finds who attractive.Its how our mums and dads went for each other in the first place kiddies and it has nothing to do with preditory { so flogged to death these days} behavior.

    • stephen says:

      11:41am | 07/07/09

      Sounds like free dental is not the only motive for joining the ADF heh, chaps ?
      And I hope that book is a hardcover :  if you ever do get into a scrape, you can stick it in front of your chest.

    • RT says:

      12:49pm | 07/07/09

      Tori, I didn’t see Baldwin’s mention of the contest between Latham and Fitzgibbon as to who could bed a coalition staffer first. Did he tell us who won? Do you know, and also who was the lucky object of that attention.

      On a serious note, why would any parent encourage either a son or a daughter to join the ADF? This aint the 80s and 90s when the ADF personnel could get on with a career undisturbed by war. Nowadays they are constantly at risk of being dispatched to (and maybe despatched at) some middle eastern hell hole for the greater good of Australian-US alliance. Or maybe they can hope those days are over with election results in the past two years.

    • Philo says:

      12:51pm | 07/07/09

      There’s a big difference between the Christina Rich situation, groping, favouritism based on sexual favours, and the kind of juvenile but harmless ranking of hotties on this ship.
      It’s ridiculous that the military have their time used up with this nonsense.  Do you reckon the girls hadn’t - privately or communally - sized up the male ‘talent’ as well? 
      There was no hint of compulsion being used on the women - guys always live in hope as far as I can tell (not being one, you see, I can only surmise…)

    • Polly says:

      12:54pm | 07/07/09

      It’s all about Respect - or the lack of it!

    • Kate says:

      01:05pm | 07/07/09

      Eric,

      What these sailors did “wrong” is that they treated their co-workers like sex objects, not equals. And what men need to understand is that this behavior will not be tolerated in the modern working world.

      What’s sad is a lot of backward men (and I agree across all Industries) don’t see women as equals within the work place. It’s usally these men that view female co-workers as a sexual objects and when they do so, they disrespect the work that she undertakes on a day to day basis. 

      This ‘boys club’ culture needs to be stamped out and for it to be made clear that this behavior is unacceptable.

      Kate

    • Dave says:

      01:07pm | 07/07/09

      But who won the comp?

    • FS says:

      02:19pm | 07/07/09

      Kate, that is rubbish.  Just because a man views a woman as a possible sexual partner does NOT mean that he can’t also respect her, and what she does.  This whole idea that men can no longer talk about women in a sexual way is ludicrous.  I have and do work with multiple women, I would love to have had sex with some of them, and have told mates this.  Does that mean that I didn’t respect the job they did? Or because I found them attractive and told someone does that mean they were victimised? What utter crap.

      As a former member of the Navy, considering re-joining I can assure you that the only people who lose respect are those that don’t pull their weight.  If a woman is doing her job she will be treated with the same respect as anyone else.  I can also assure you that in my experience in the puss if someone is treating a woman unfairly, or they try and force her to do something against her will, they will reined in by their oppos quick smart - usually with a black eye to show for it.

    • Bob says:

      02:26pm | 07/07/09

      Zanthie is so right, bullying is part of the culture of the ADF and it will never be entirely stopped, until there is a better training and selection of supervisiors (Officers and NCO’s). I endured several years of bully boy treatment until I made SNCO rank and then I started a war against the practice, it did not enhance my career prospects, but I felt bloody good about protecting some valuable people from leaving the service. And resolved some of the problems behind closed doors and by official means and physical means. I left after 20+ years service with a clear conscience and with the knowledge that i had done my bit to stamp out the practice in my trade group.

    • FS says:

      03:43pm | 07/07/09

      Again for Bob - utter crap, making sweeping statements like ‘bullying is part of the culture of the ADF’ are just complete nonsense.  If you experienced genuine bullying it would have been a rare event.  The vast majority of people who claim they have been ‘bullied’ are people who don’t pull their weight and get toed into line for it.  Then they complain that they have been ‘victimised’ when all that has happened is they have been pulled up for not doing their job in an environment where laziness and incompetence result in death.

    • Bob says:

      05:13pm | 07/07/09

      FS, your so wrong, there are many ways of getting the best out of troops, showing leadership is one, counselling another (reinforcing the consequences of falling below the required standard), retraining another. The last resort is formal warning, and /or dismissal from the service as"no likely to reach the required standard”.

      There is no doubt that many a bully was found with a bullet hole in the back after going the top and a case I am aware off a Staff Sgt that never went outside the wire after he recieved some “treatment” in town while on leave, his behaviour inside the wire had a marked improvement until he left early to go back to Australia.

      Girls, stay in there, do your best and fight back against any form of harassment. You are valued and respected by the majority.

    • Eric says:

      06:05pm | 07/07/09

      Once again—this isn’t bullying, it isn’t harrassment, it isn’t any sort of actual incident as far as I can see.

      It’s purely a thought crime—some men *daring* to have politically incorrect thoughts about women.

      As such, it should be a non-issue. People shouldn’t be persecuted for what they think, only punished if they actually *do* something wrong. There was none of that here, as far as I can see.

      I assume all those who support Julia Gillard in her stance have never said anything about anyone in their workplace that might not meet possibly offend some busybody. Otherwise, they’d be hypocrites.

    • David says:

      06:44pm | 07/07/09

      How do we know the girls don;t have a league table too?

    • Jay says:

      07:22pm | 07/07/09

      My comment is aimed mainly at the posters who have criticised the guys in question and labelled their actions as harrassment.  Next time any of you go somewhere with the specific intention of picking up / hooking up / meeting a new partner should you consider this harrassment because your intent is to go and and find someone to shag? ADF have fraternisation policies and this is strictly enforced on operations and at sea.  What these guys did was considered unacceptable and they have been punished enough for it. 

      Packs of males or females sometimes go out on the town with a particular agenda and an in-group competetition ... females on the hunt for particular celebrities or football players; having designated wingmen/women; “pig” nights (where the person who pulls the ugliest person wins the pot) etc etc.  Makes you think twice when you pick up some random stranger in a bar doesn’t it!!

    • Reilly says:

      08:14pm | 07/07/09

      I am an ex member of the defence force and have seen the shoe on the other foot, whilst posted to a training establishment I saw a group of female trainees pay for a motel room and place the key in the middle of the table and bet on who could bed one of the training staff.  This happens with both sexes it just happens that these men were made an example of, once again the media make it appear worse than it really was.  As a sideline I was accussed of sexual harrassment ( Not Guilty) when I refused the advanes of a trainee.

    • Deborah says:

      11:36pm | 07/07/09

      “As such, it should be a non-issue. People shouldn’t be persecuted for what they think, only punished if they actually *do* something wrong. There was none of that here, as far as I can see.”

      They actually did *do* something wrong, they kept a betting ledger where they put a price and rating on sex with their female co-workers. This is wrong in every way, morally, ethically and legally because it promotes a culture of sexual harassment and sexual objectification of women rather than equality and respect. 

      “The vast majority of people who claim they have been ‘bullied’ are people who don’t pull their weight and get toed into line for it.  Then they complain that they have been ‘victimised’...”

      Where are some stats to support that statement? Or could it be that some workers just want to do their job without having to comply with an organisational culture of sexism or bullying etc. have you ever thought that the bullying, harassment and victimisation may have rendered the person incapable of doing their job effectively?

    • Eric says:

      01:15am | 08/07/09

      Deborah,

      You still haven’t shown that these sailors did anything wrong. “Promoting a culture” is a subjective notion.

      There is no evidence as yet that the women were in any way harassed or treated wrongly. The only offence has been in the minds of feminists—who will always be offended by anything men say or do.

      This is a thought crime, nothing more.

    • Bill says:

      04:53am | 08/07/09

      Having served in the ADF for 20 years I am ashamed of this but for different reasons. I agree all people should and deserve equality in all they do. This is why the ADF strive for peace and democracy. Look at their efforts in Rwanda, Timor, Bougainville, the Solomons and in the Tsunamis, floods and fires and I can go on. They may not be perfect and do things that anger people at times. At least the public hear it when the young boys and girls are exposed. Compare that to the pollies, major corporations, small business and even our legal system of light unbelievable sentences. These sailors possibly in their late teens were stupid…what young men arent. The CO of the ship should be applauded for stopping it.

    • realto says:

      06:15am | 08/07/09

      Can we please find out who won the competition between Latham and Fitzgibbon?

    • joe2 says:

      09:06am | 08/07/09

      Some blokes seem to get more pleasure from telling their mates about an alleged sexual conquest than the act itself. It’s a little pathetic but maybe harmless in itself.

      The issue here is that these idiots appear to have cruelly and publicly abused their colleagues trust in a workplace where you may need to rely on each other in a life or death situation. They do not deserve to be in the armed forces.

    • Deborah says:

      09:35am | 08/07/09

      eric and fs, how about answering some of the questions posed to you - like some stats to support your extremely bigoted and biased statements:

      “...Unfortunately, the behaviour of feminists has consequences in the real world, as men are unfairly penalised just for being male. That’s the sexist society we live in” 

      and

      “...The vast majority of people who claim they have been ‘bullied’ are people who don’t pull their weight and get toed into line for it.  Then they complain that they have been ‘victimised’...”

      The ledger shows they *did* wrong, not just *thought* wrong. Females made complaints during the equity and diversity check which led to the men being sent home - why would they complain if the boys had done nothing wrong?

      The sad thing here is the number of men who can’t see anything wrong in making a sexual competition and targeting co-workers for sex - guess that’s why sexism is still very much a problem in Australian culture today.

    • Z says:

      09:40am | 08/07/09

      Yes it is definately true that if you don’t pull your weight then you will be ridiculed, sidelined and known for being lazy. The thing is, there are PLENTY of people in the Navy that do NOTHING everyday and still get paid, get promotions and still stay in.
      There are plenty of people that work DAMN hard. Some of these people are ridiculed for showing their positivity, eagerness and their want to learn. Why? Because you are to toe the line!
      I worked damn hard. I got an award for my efforts in helping our fellow sailors with emotional/study issues. I was still regularly bullied and shunned. How do people survive when the people they have to work/sleep/eat with 24 hours a day, 7 days a week (yes sometime upto 6 months at a time) do their damn hardest and get ridiculed for it!
      Then when you get time off, you go to the pub. Everyone from your ship is there, you are touched, involved in sexual innuendo (sometime unwillingly) and you are expected to enjoy it.
      Yes the males AND the females are all involved with this. I have always found the females to be the worst!
      I congratulate HMAS SUCCESS’s CO for not taking this crap from it’s junior sailors. When they get promoted to more senior positions they could continue to do the ‘ledgers’ and target vunerable sailors (yes, their subordinates). I would NOT like my Divisional Officer looking at me and deciding how much I am ‘worth’ if he could get me in the sack!
      There is an need to increase the awareness of this in the ADF and its members NEED to take it more seriously.
      Again, the CDF and Chief of the Navy are doing a FANTASTIC job in laying the foundation to change this culture, and I hope it continues.

    • Eric says:

      09:48am | 08/07/09

      Deborah,

      You haven’t provided any evidence to support your extremely biased and bigoted statements—so don’t go around making demands.

      As many commenters here have reported, women are also capable of making sexual assessments of male colleagues—yet they are not penalised for it. Men, on the other hand, are disciplined and may lose their jobs over similar behaviour.

      You still haven’t demonstrated that these men behaved in any inappropriate way towards women. Their crime is to think the wrong thoughts.

      We are living in a sexist society where men are assumed guilty even if proven innocent, while women are assumed innocent always.

      This whole story is a case in point.

    • Peter says:

      10:34am | 08/07/09

      Simple: have separate ships, separate squadrons, separate battalions for females-only.

      That way, female ADF members will only have to put up with lesbian sexual advances and harrassment. 

      Which, of course, we know would NEVER happen, would it ladies?  Least of all in the defence forces.

    • Deborah says:

      11:08am | 08/07/09

      “You haven’t provided any evidence to support your extremely biased and bigoted statements—so don’t go around making demands.”

      I’ll make as many demands as I like, particularly as you are only offering up sexist, biased and bigoted opinion, not fact.

      “You still haven’t demonstrated that these men behaved in any inappropriate way towards women. Their crime is to think the wrong thoughts.”

      The ledger with a price on women and sex as competition/conquest is not a thought, it exists. The women’s complaints exist and the disciplinary action exists. Just repeating your ‘no evidence’ claim ad nauseum does not make it true.

    • Karl says:

      11:39am | 08/07/09

      Tory, I suggest you have a read of the comments that “support” your view.
      A general rule of thumb is that if you’ve got the screaming nutters in your corner, it’s time to look at what corner you’re in.

    • Coco says:

      01:05pm | 08/07/09

      Tory,

      I totally connected with your article, having worked in the big wide ‘respected’
      corporate world since I was 19 and have had to really put up with some foul shit - I mean this shit is truly rough (and that is really the most eloquent way of describing it)

      Sadly, reading these comments I can’t believe so many people assume that you’re requesting a get-out-of-jail-free cards for the navy because this behaviour is more common in the private sector that one thinks.

      I would have hoped that more men would recognised that this behaviour unacceptable regardless of where you work.

      Also, to all these douche bags would keep using the ‘I’m sure the women have their own ledge’  or ‘nothing illegal about writing a list’ as some kind of justification…next you’ll be saying “they know what they are there for”

    • Tim says:

      02:11pm | 08/07/09

      Deborah,

      you still haven’t explained what is wrong with having a ledger?
      Tacky sure, but not illegal.
      Is it wrong because the women didn’t like it?
      This is what happens when you try to exert morality in the workplace.
      Who’s gets to decide what is morally right?

    • Tim says:

      02:17pm | 08/07/09

      Coco,
      this issue is all about the fact that nothing illegal happened.
      You cannot legislate morality into the workplace.
      I’m sure everyone’s morals are different.
      Whose are correct?
      As long as these women weren’t forced to do something then nothing wrong happened.

    • Jack says:

      02:44pm | 08/07/09

      As a former memebr of the navy I believe this has been blown completely out of proportion. While at sea I have seen posters the girls made of male sailors so the female sailors could vote who will be their mess pin up boy.
      Most of what goes on is all done to lighten a long boring stint at sea and useally gets a laugh from both sex’s.

      Occassionaly thing go to far and the CO intervened and and pulled these juior sailors aside and sent them home to face discilplinary table. I think these sailors and futtre sailors will either learn to be more covert or come up with a more reasonable way to pass the long boring stints away.

    • FS says:

      04:24pm | 08/07/09

      Deborah
      ...and fs, how about answering some of the questions posed to you - like some stats to support your extremely bigoted and biased statements:
      “...The vast majority of people who claim they have been ‘bullied’ are people who don’t pull their weight and get toed into line for it.  Then they complain that they have been ‘victimised’...”

      This statement was made based on my experience in the uniform.  I have seen first hand what goes on within the Navy, as such I believe I am more than qualified to make that assertion.  I fail to see how the statment is bigotted or bias - it is a statement of fact which I made based on personal experience - tell me what is your view based on?

      I stand by my views.  These sailors were having a joke with each other about the women they work with - was it a childish and silly joke?  Sure, but does that mean that they actually victimised anyone? No.  Is it harassment to find women attractive and talk and joke about it with your mates? Again NO! This is normal behaviour - women do it just as much as men.

      You also Said:
      Where are some stats to support that statement? Or could it be that some workers just want to do their job without having to comply with an organisational culture of sexism or bullying etc. have you ever thought that the bullying, harassment and victimisation may have rendered the person incapable of doing their job effectively?

      Again I reiterate - I NEVER saw genuine bullying within the Navy. I saw people who were toed into line for not performing their job, these people when they are repeatedly reprimanded for not performing decide that they were being bullied or victimised - it was absolute crap. 

      With particiular regard to women as I said in my first post in my experience in the puss if someone is treating a woman unfairly, or they try and force her to do something against her will, they will be reined in by their oppos quick smart - usually with a black eye to show for it.

    • G says:

      09:47pm | 08/07/09

      If you think this is just fun or normal behaviour - you’re wrong.  Sexual harassment is serious and you cannot be stupid enough to think this only involved a ledger and some joking around. These guys have set up a competition with financial reward (illegal gambling?) some will go to a lot of effort to win, and so then you have varying degrees of crass behavior, manipulative pressure, and misleading actions all in the workplace and an environment that’s already hostile to women.  They interviewed a woman on Triple J’s Hack who’s seen it first hand, she said it had a big effect on the women.  Why make excuses for this, deal with it and stamp it out.

    • Eric says:

      08:03am | 09/07/09

      This isn’t sexual harrassment or bullying of any sort.

      There is no evidence whatsoever that women were disadvantaged in any way.

      It’s all a big beat-up by man-hating feminazis.

    • Kelly says:

      01:07pm | 09/07/09

      Eris says “this isn’t sexual harrassment or bullying of any sort” and “It’s all a big beat-up by man-hating feminazis.” 

      Wow, thanks for your intelligent and insightful comments, love. Just wondering what you think harrassment or bullying might be? Or exactly how many “man-hating feminazis” work in the Australian Navy and conspired to send those poor, inoffensive sailors home?

      Those blokes did a dumb thing, got caught and then sent home. Well done to the ADF for making them take responsibility for it. There are a few other organisations that could follow their lead.

      Oh and Eric, just a tip ... those who disagree with you are not “man-hating feminazis”. They just hate “men” like you. I know I do!

    • Eric says:

      05:54pm | 09/07/09

      Kelly, harassment and bullying are pretty well understood. Both require some direct action by the harasser or bully toward the victim. None of that is in evidence here.

      The man-hating feminazis are not so much in the Navy, as in the Parliament and the media. The captain of the ship knew what was likely to happen once the news got out, and so took the actions he did.

      Not all the people who disagree with me are man-hating feminazis, Kelly, but you are!

    • Steve says:

      02:16pm | 10/07/09

      Pooooor Eric… you’re seem like the only sole who has not quite grasped the central point. Its not about men-haters, its about hating men who act without respect, which is quite unmanly.

    • Peggy Davis says:

      12:54pm | 17/07/09

      I do not see any form of sexual harrassement of any kind here.  These women were ALL consenting adults.  If these acts were commited aboard Ship and it is an offence , then why were the women not sent home, they are just as guilty as their male shipmates, I am sure they knew the rules just as well as their male shipmates did.  The only discrimination I see is against the male crewmembers of HMAS Success.

    • Chloe says:

      04:16pm | 27/01/10

      Oh My God! just get over it. FS is so right. I’m a female and besides the immature stories i’ve been told, i still want to join the navy. AND the many women who i know that have joined the navy, have never experienced horrible and disgusting behaviour and neither have their friends. Yes, obviously some guys have passed a few comments while walking past, but they didn’t take it as predatory behaviour. they either ignored it, took it as a compliment (which some people need to learn to do), or if it really was that bad, give them a taste of their own medicine.
      And another point, this isn’t our fight, it’s theirs. In fact, it pretty much has absolutely nothing to do with us!

    • Steveo says:

      01:31pm | 12/03/10

      Were any seaman discharged?

 

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