I had to smile when I read a piece by a rather cross 22-year-old woman on The Punch recently, in which she had a stern message for women older than her: rack off.

They're only this happy because they listen to nan. Picture: Thinkstock

The Punch intern and journalism/law student, Hannah Sinclair, was letting older women know that she didn’t need our advice on career, babies (and how to juggle both) thank you very much. She would work it all out herself, when the time came to do so.

She has a point. Who wouldn’t get sick of being bombarded constantly by messages that could be pretty intimidating and certainly interpreted as patronising? In particular, she didn’t want to hear Collette Dinnigan’s advice on not leaving babies until you’re in your early middle age (the designer has said she felt the need to give that advice, quite responsibly I think, because she’s been lucky enough to conceive naturally at 46 but didn’t want to create the idea this was run of the mill).

Nor did she want Germaine Greer’s career advice (get it cracking by 28 if you’re serious), or UK columnist Samantha Brick’s tips on marriage - which include staying slim for hubbie. To be honest, I don’t want Samantha Brick’s tips on absolutely bloody anything - she recommends that our greatest aspiration should be “trophy wife”- and I am a little older than 22.

“There’s a difference between offering advice and menacing caution,” wrote Sinclair. “I just wish my generational elders would learn the difference”.

“If older women had the same passion for charity work as they did for my uterus, the world would be a better place ... None of you have the secret formula, so why are you so obsessed with justifying your own choices and pushing them on us?”

Poor old (young) Sinclair was mauled in the comments on her piece, mainly by women who said other women’s advice had been a priceless source of strength and wisdom to them over the course of their lives, and who accused the writer of being an upstart.

My reaction, though, was “you go, girl” - get exactly as cross as I would have been at 22 when anyone “older” (especially over 40, ewwwww), tried to tell me what to do. I was certain I would work it all out in my own time, by making my own mistakes. And boy, was I right. I made plenty of my own mistakes and made absolutely certain that I didn’t cut any corners with that.

I was a pretty bad listener, especially to any possibly sensible words offered to me by someone old enough to be a school principal. Or someone who wore ironed silk shirts (sure sign of a “generational elder” if there ever was one), or someone who cleaned their shoes regularly (how out of touch with urgent 20-something reality could they be if they had time for that?).

I know it may be virtually impossible for a sharp 22 year-old to believe, but even some people over 40 can remember exactly what they were like at 22, and how they thought. And just reflecting on that, I had to laugh at myself a little bit (no, a lot) when I went back into the data bases to recall what I was totally certain of at 22 and how I think about those same things now.

How I thought at 22 and what I reckon now:

On work:

At 22: “It’s the thing you do in the office between having an excellent time with your 20-something mates. It is full of old people who don’t take you seriously enough.”

Now: It’s the place you run to with sparks coming off your shoes so you can sit among adults and not be confronted with the detritus still needing to be addressed by you at home. You happily work your bottom off, doing stimulating stuff, before going home to tweens, who perhaps don’t take you seriously enough.

On babies and children:

At 22: “They are quite messy, they involve a lot of snot. Now your babysitting years are behind you, avoid. Also, they often get in the way of the view of that lovely, cute, adorable dog you are admiring. Annoying.”

Now: God how lucky am I that I didn’t leave it too late to have them. Though they are so beautiful it does relegate even the most lovely and loved dog to the status of, well, not a baby, just a dog.

On planning more than five minutes ahead:

At 22: “That is for codgers who play bowls. What exciting or creative experience can really be scheduled to occur? Far better to let life unfold, and enjoy the ride.”

Now: You twit, planning a bit creates a calm space and un-hectic structure in which good ideas and real enjoyment can flow. Duh.

On saving money:

At 22: That’s for codgers who play bowls and want to drive there in a Volvo (with their hat on at the wheel).

Now: See “you twit” above. Yes you’ve traveled to about as many countries as Elton John, spending every cent you earned prior to 30, but perhaps you could have cut that back and put down a house deposit.

I could go on, but you get the picture. Clearly I knew absolutely everything at 22, and the older me is offering one big load of crazy, unsolicited, patronising advice.

Comments on this post will close at 8pm AEST.

Most commented

73 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Brando says:

      06:31am | 14/09/12

      When I was 20 I know everything and my parents knew nothing about the world. I found it amazing how much they learned as I got older

    • NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

      06:45am | 14/09/12

      Hi Wendy,

      There could be some kind of truth to both versions of your story! However, since all women aren’t the same no matter what their age group happen to be! And as women we aren’t created and designed identically and we actually do come in all sorts of shapes and sizes! I personally don’t think that all women claim to know everything by the age of 22!  Because some women by that age are becoming mothers for the first time mothers and choosing to be stay at home mothers at the same time.

      I think this case is pretty unique in the sense that we don’t seem to have anyone else to compare it to!  Yes by all means, most financially independent & educated young women will rebel against the very idea of being told at any age! That has more to do with having our own mind and our opinions, thank God for that!  But also lets not forget that our own life experiences make us who we truly are!  And thank God for that too.

      If you happen to come from a very liberal thinking and head strong family background and I am actually talking about female figures here!  There is every chance to you do share the same genetic make up and you are bound to follow in the foot steps of your elders, luckily!  Because I happen to be one of those women, I still don’t like being told what to do or who to become.

      And in conclusion life is all about living with idea of trial and error!  Believe it or not we tend to learn much more from our mistakes than anything else!  It is OK to make mistakes even though we have been told otherwise and nobody is expected to be that perfect.  Life is all about choices and making decisions almost everyday of our lives. Personally one thing I detest more than being told what to do happens to be the statements of “I told you so and if only you had listened to me”!

      So all those women out there ready to live their lives, it is alright to make mistakes, with no regrets at all.  Time is the most important thing in our lives.  Just like it has been said before, it is not so important to be right always but it is always nice to be happy!  And by doing what makes us truly happy we are also honouring the wishes of our elders and we are on the right track to be successful as well happy. Kind regards to your editors.

    • Scotchfinger says:

      12:40pm | 14/09/12

      I love talking about female figures smile

    • GetRidOfCommies says:

      06:50am | 14/09/12

      Kids these days never listen to there elders. It is a sign of the lack of respect they have for there betters. The youth of today have gone off the rails and it all has to do with there attitude towards the adults in the world. They think they know better then us about everything so stop listening to our advice. That is why there is so much crime and why Generation Y are unemployable. Help us when they become the adults in charge.

    • James1 says:

      08:24am | 14/09/12

      As a gainfully employed Gen Y, I can honestly say that the lack of grammatical knowledge demonstrated in your post is a sure sign that I know more about the language we use than you.  Please stop destroying the English language.

    • Markus says:

      08:51am | 14/09/12

      Our youths love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority – they show disrespect for their elders and love to chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when their elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up food, and tyrannize teachers.

      - Socrates

    • Elphaba says:

      09:09am | 14/09/12

      @GROC, yes, because kids in the 50s and 60s never went off the rails either, did they?

      Twit.  *Some* kids, of *all* generations, go off the rails.  More often that not, they have an undesirable home situation - the responsibility of the parents - that precipitates it.  The rest of us have a bit of fun in our youth, then get steady jobs, save money, and eke out an existence just like you.

      Get a grip.

    • TChong says:

      09:35am | 14/09/12

      Markus
      You beat to it.
      My favrit quote , when ever someone brings out the old “the kids of today…,” type argument.

    • Blind Freddy says:

      09:37am | 14/09/12

      More intelligent thought from the right.

    • iansand says:

      09:42am | 14/09/12

      West Side Story
      Gangs of New York
      Rebel Without a Cause

      Some movies that might interest you

    • hehehe says:

      09:53am | 14/09/12

      Don’t you worry tuba
      You’ll make a fine catch one day.
      Just learn to keep your mouth shut, cover the tatts and chew your food with your mouth shut.

    • Elphaba says:

      10:51am | 14/09/12

      @iansand,

      Grease? smile

      I couldn’t hep myself, it’s a personal favourite…

    • amy says:

      10:52am | 14/09/12

      I think I’m seeing speaking words…but I still can’t quite make it out

      as from “RAAAGGGHHH BACK IN MY DAY..GET OFF MY LAWN!!”

      its ok GetRidOfCommies..the kids can’t hurt your lawn anymore..they are all inside on facebook or the Xbox

    • I, Claudia says:

      11:18am | 14/09/12

      I wouldn’t listen to someone who couldn’t distinguish between “there” and “their,” either. You’ll earn my respect - I won’t just hand it to you because you’ve decided you’re entitled to it by virtue of your age.

    • Caedrel says:

      11:29am | 14/09/12

      @iansand @Elphaba
      Dirty Dancing - how huge was that back in the day?

      Who’s Got A List? wink

    • Renzo says:

      11:29am | 14/09/12

      Please don’t lump all Gen Y people together! I’m an employed Gen Y’er and I certainly do not know everything. I highly appreciate peoples advice and the ability it has to help me, and I most definitely listen to it.

      Down with Gen Y bashing! We aren’t that bad.

    • Elphaba says:

      11:50am | 14/09/12

      @Caedrel, yes!  Scandalous behaviour, it was!

      I’m going to volunteer ‘American Graffiti’ as well…

    • Rose says:

      02:04pm | 14/09/12

      Since when does elder necessarily mean better. There are some older people who are considerably worse than people much younger.
      Everyone is entitled to a certain amount of respect because, as people it is our duty to treat others with the same respect that we wish to be treated with. However, any respect above and beyond basic civility and manners needs to be earned.

    • Me says:

      07:08am | 14/09/12

      Well, for me, my ideals for similarly different. In that, I planned ahead at about 22 in some things but definately not in others as didnt really put the brakes on in the partying department until oh, about 27 at least.  From about 15, whilst still in school, all I did was sit amongst adults at my varied after school work places, so listen I did. I certainly didnt think your way about children, but I still do not have any now. As for saving money, well, I am now on a sole mortgage with a block of land on the side, but I cant say I thought saving money was for the old codgers, it was actually a choice that like working from the age of about 15 after school that I would have to do. And if shining my shoes was a good footing, I assure you I did that too. I have travelled. I have lived in all bar two Australian states and travelled to many overseas countries. I have represented the state and country on many levels. Isnt it different how our ideals allow for similar pursuits, but not mindsets.

    • acotrel says:

      07:12am | 14/09/12

      I used to like that TV series ‘Father Knows Best’, and I used to say that phrase to my kids, and they in response would strongly deny that well established fact.  Perhaps we need a new series ‘Mother Knows Best’ ?

    • TChong says:

      07:28am | 14/09/12

      Yeah, we are all instant experts, immortal , and ( if only the oldies knew it ) wise beyond our years at 22 ( or so we thought) .

      Society, civilisation, is built on wisdom, often learnt the hard way,  pased down from one generation to the next.
      That way, each new generation doesnt have to constantly reinvent the wheel.

    • ByStealth says:

      09:51am | 14/09/12

      Yes, but some advice is useless, or worse counterproductive. Eg most dating advice from baby boomers.

    • BJ says:

      07:37am | 14/09/12

      People who use freedon of choice arguments are typically only interested in people’s freedom to make the choices that they want. When people agree with the message, they have is no problem with others giving unsolicited advice.

    • thatmosis says:

      07:48am | 14/09/12

      Young men have the same problem but not i expect to the same extent as young women. I remember my father telling me this and that and then me completely ignoring that advice until well into my 30’s and then realising that I was a twit. It was then that I rethought all those sage words of wisdom and realised they they were just that words of wisdom gleaned from years of experience and passed on with good intentions. In point of fact I tried it with my son with the same reactions that I gave my dad until now when he has also realised that I was not trying to make his life difficult but pass on knowledge that would have saved him grief in the long run. He now realises , as I did, that maybe the old man was right and that being young doesn’t necessarily mean that you are smart too.

    • Jeremy says:

      08:07am | 14/09/12

      Experience and wisdom are completely different things. Most older adults are stupid. Screwing up and making it out reasonably unscathed doesn’t suddenly make you more intelligent, or your advice more meaningful. I remember living in my one-bedder when I was 18, and a friend of a friend lost her job and needed a place to crash. And there she stayed, until I kicked her out, an unemployed 40 something, never listening to me and trying to pass me dumb ageist advice from the couch in my living room. It’s was pathetic as it was aggravating. I love the advice of a few close friends, but the amount of crap that get passed around is astonishing.

    • thatmosis says:

      12:51pm | 14/09/12

      Unfortunately Jeremy some people never grow up but you will find to your utter amazement that the majority of older people know what they are talking about and try to save the younger generation from making the same mistakes. Its people like you and your attitude to the older person that makes one wonder if its all worth it and in your case probably not.

    • Jeremy says:

      07:51am | 14/09/12

      See that is exactly the kind of patronizing s*** that the young woman was talking about. You continually paint young people with a naive brush. Do you really think we don’t understand what babies and work are? Many people have careers and families by their mid-twenties. Not that you need them to understand the responsibility involved. I’ve always been for taking good advice. But most 20 year old idiots are still idiots when they are 40. Age has no monopoly on wisdom. If you talk to young people the was you treat them in the article, I’d be surprised if anyone listened to you.

    • N says:

      08:14am | 14/09/12

      +1.
      Love this “But most 20 year old idiots are still idiots when they are 40”
      I find it’s usually the people who are unsure of the decisions and choices that they have made who are continually shoving their opinions/advice down everyone’s throats.

    • acotrel says:

      08:24am | 14/09/12

      ‘You cannot put an old head on young shoulders.
      ’ ‘Never listen to a young person, they will send you wrong every time.’
      Both of these comments were made to me by old government scientists.  Were they talking bullshit ?
      Ever heard the statement ‘Be told ! ’ ? Nobody expects anyone else to accept what is said to them, blindly without thinking.  But sometimes you just have to accept that some people have far more experience and education than yourself, and just might be worth listening to.

    • acotrel says:

      08:31am | 14/09/12

      Jeremy
      Where did all your ‘wisdom’ come from ?  I suggest you only know what you have been told or directed towards by teachers who have never had a real job.  It is the blind leading the blind.  How much Australian history were you taught in school, did you even have anyone capable of teaching it ?  I suggest you are just like the rest of the bogans who are incapable of self-analysis, and sublime in their ignorance.

    • ZSRenn says:

      08:31am | 14/09/12

      The only problem with youth is that it is wasted on the young! Never more so than with this generation of time wasting barbarians

    • Black Dynamite says:

      09:37am | 14/09/12

      Completely agree, just because the author was clueless at 22 doesn’t mean the rest of us are. Lets be honest, the only reason I’d go to an older woman for advice would be regarding sammich making.

      BD

    • iansand says:

      10:04am | 14/09/12

      Time for a Donald Rumsfeld moment - known unknowns, unknown unknowns.  You know the drill.

      A 20 year od thinking they know everything they need to know falls into the unknown unknowns category.

    • Tim says:

      07:57am | 14/09/12

      I read the caption under the picture as:

      “They’re only happy because they listened to a man”

    • Mahhrat says:

      08:06am | 14/09/12

      Here’s a serious question: 

      How many female-dominated industries have apprenticeships?

      Men I know seek the knowledge of those higher in the pecking order.  It’s probably pack-related; it’s certainly prevelant in the military.  The elder, wise head passes on their knowledge to the younger - generally starting with the crappest jobs.  In this way you learn humilitary, discipline and tolerance - wax on, wax off!

      I’ve not noticed it in more female-centric industries.  Is it simply how they’ve evolved, or is there a more significant gender difference here?

    • TChong says:

      09:11am | 14/09/12

      mahhrat
      Female apprenticeships.
      In the olden days nursing , when hospital based, was probaly the most common form of “apprenticeship “for women, - learning while working, with extra responsibilities , and pay,, as they did the 3 years in “schools of nursing”, earning a certificate ( Registered Nurse)  , when completed.

    • rach says:

      10:55am | 14/09/12

      Hairdressing? Beautician-related stuff? Massage? Receptionists? Admin? These all offer numerous apprenticeships.

      I don’t think there’s a gender difference, I just think you haven’t really thought about it properly. Seeking the knowledge of those higher in the pecking order is not a male trait, it’s a human trait.

    • Mahhrat says:

      01:04pm | 14/09/12

      @Rach: I did an Admin Traineeship, not an apprenticeship.  They’re similar, but not the same, because you’re a trainee for a business, whereas an apprentice is usually given to a single tradesperson to teach.

      I’m not critical of the method, I just wonder if there’s a “difference of the sexes” thing to explore there in how men and women choose to learn.

    • Tubesteak says:

      08:06am | 14/09/12

      This was actually really funny.

      But I don’t agree with the work thing.

      Older work: It’s an endless grinding trudge that you begrudgingly do so that you can pay the mortgage and the bills and build an investment portfolio. There is nothing creative or stimulating about it. There are no sparks on your shoes.

      Same as when you’re younger.

    • Markus says:

      09:00am | 14/09/12

      Anybody who is as excited to go to work each day as the writer indicates either works for the International beer, explosives and swimsuit models Corporation, or has some very serious issues with their personal life.

    • colin says:

      10:22am | 14/09/12

      @Tubesteak 08:06am | 14/09/12
      @Markus 09:00am | 14/09/12

      “There is nothing creative or stimulating about it…”

      “Anybody who is as excited to go to work each day…has some very serious issues with their personal life.”

      Really? So change jobs!

      You guys must be in some severely boring jobs. I love going to work; every day is something new. Every day is creative, challenging, mentally stimulating and there is never a dull moment..!

      Why are so many people in jobs that they can’t stand when there are so many jobs out there that are stimulating..?

      And, please, don’t tell me it’s because you “Have to…”; if you really want to do what you love to do, it isn’t all that hard to re-train, get a new degree or whatever…Admittedly their must be a proportion of dunderheads who have no way of doing that, but the majority..?

    • Tubesteak says:

      10:38am | 14/09/12

      Don’t forget the puppy-dogs, lollies and fireworks factory

      I wonder if there’s some correlation to how the author described her early approach to work and outcomes for female achievement re industries, salaries and promotions….....

    • Tubesteak says:

      11:21am | 14/09/12

      Colin
      What magical fairyland do you work in?

      I don’t think I’ve ever met a person who liked their job unless they were a woman married to her meal-ticket who paid for her lifestyle aspirations and her job was just some fluffy useless thing that she did as described in the Young Work above.

      I’d love to have a job where I can watch TV all day, download porn and play computer games that pays me enough money to pay the mortgage, build an investment portfolio (so that I can retire and never have to work again) and obtain a very comfortable lifestyle with prestige European sports cars, big house, pool, backyard and no more than 20 minutes to work and attract a hot young woman about 20-30 years younger than me who will satisfy my every sexual desire and make me a bacon sandwich when I’m hungry.

      Unfortunately, all my searching on seek.com.au has been in vain for this mystical nirvana.

      So I make sacrifices accordingly and live with that grin

      BTW you had a grammatical error in your last sentence.

    • Tim says:

      11:27am | 14/09/12

      Ah Colin,
      now it all makes sense.
      No wonder you’re so happy with constantly advocating spending other people’s money, because you love your job.

      May we ask what field your job is in Colin? Is it in a field that constantly lets you excrete your empathy for others by any chance?

      For a lot of us, we work because we want the money to provide freedom. We’re extremely well educated and we’ve chosen fields in which the remuneration is high to compensate for not being able to thoroughly enjoy ourselves all day.

      The goal is to retire as early and well off as possible so as to be able to enjoy ourselves and not worry about how we’re going to look after ourselves in old age.

    • Markus says:

      11:39am | 14/09/12

      @colin, I never said I hate my job. What I said was that if I liked my job more than I liked my free time then that would say a lot about how poor my personal life is.

      And when you have several dependents with you as the primary income earner, retraining is that hard to do, which is why more people do not do it.

    • andrew says:

      12:25pm | 14/09/12

      yes colin, i’m definitely going to cease earning reasonable money for 3 years to do another degree only to find that in a couple of years my new job pays no more than my current one and is just as monotonous. The odds are highly stacked that anything i would enjoy more would pay far less. Tubesteak has hit the nail on the head with that point.

    • colin says:

      12:48pm | 14/09/12

      @Tubesteak 11:21am | 14/09/12

      “What magical fairyland do you work in?”

      One that provides me with a vast amount of mental stimulation, challenge, opportunity, diversity, and decent pay. Places like this do exist - you just have to find them grin
      —-
      @Tim 11:27am | 14/09/12

      in other words, no, you don’t like your job and you’re just making excuses as to why you’re too scared or too lazy to go find another one:

      “We’re extremely well educated and we’ve chosen fields in which the remuneration is high…”

      Yes, so am I BUT the rest of your sentence, “...to compensate for not being able to thoroughly enjoy ourselves all day.” does not apply. It is actually possible to have the education, the money AND a great job!
      —-
      @andrew 12:25pm | 14/09/12

      “yes colin, i’m definitely going to cease earning reasonable money for 3 years to do another degree only to find that in a couple of years my new job pays no more than my current one and is just as monotonous. The odds are highly stacked that anything i would enjoy more would pay far less.”

      Oh goodness; you’re just like Tim - too scared, too lazy or just too worried about money…
      ——

      People, life is about LIVING not being stuck in a job that you spend most of your life in and hating it..!  It doesn’t matter that you get great pay in a terrible job so that you can, “Do what you want” in your leisure time if it’s simply destroying your soul. You are in a job for many decades and most of the hours of your day it IS your life! Do you really hate yourselves THAT much..?!?

    • colin says:

      12:53pm | 14/09/12

      @Tim 11:27am | 14/09/12

      P.s:

      “The goal is to retire as early and well off as possible so as to be able to enjoy ourselves and not worry about how we’re going to look after ourselves in old age…”

      So you’ll live a cr@p life for eight hours a day for forty years just achieve that..? Do you not see how wasteful of your life that is..? Drudgery and boredom and putting up with stuff and living a soul-destroying existence just so I can retire with money and live for maybe 20 more years bit too old to really enjoy life unlike I would have done if I had done this when I was twenty-five..?

      That isn’t “Good sense”; that’s just you justifying torpitude and sloth and fear and “putting up” with a terrible situation…

    • Tim says:

      01:03pm | 14/09/12

      Colin,
      thanks for trying to put words in my mouth but you’re wrong.

      And you still didn’t tell us what field of work you’re in?

      “in other words, no, you don’t like your job and you’re just making excuses as to why you’re too scared or too lazy to go find another one:”

      Ah no, in other words I haven’t been able to find a job that allows me to play golf, travel, party, gamble, drink all night, pick up chicks and still pays me the same salary (or more) than I currently earn.

      I don’t hate my job, there’s just hundreds of other things that I’d much prefer to be doing.

      “Yes, so am I BUT the rest of your sentence, “...to compensate for not being able to thoroughly enjoy ourselves all day.” does not apply. It is actually possible to have the education, the money AND a great job!”

      Again, C’mon what field are you in? Or are you too scared to say?

      “People, life is about LIVING “

      Exactly, and LIVING the way I want to for as long as I want to requires money that only a high paying job can provide. I know plenty of people that spend lots of time LIVING and they won’t be having much fun when they realise that they’re old, broke and eating cat food.

    • Tim says:

      01:12pm | 14/09/12

      Oh and Colin to your PS,

      Firstly for me, I won’t be working 40 years. Don’t need to.

      And yes being sensible and planning to achieve your goals as well as taking personal responsibility for your own decisions is like so passe.
      I should join a hippy commune and rely on the government to look after me. After all, no amount of other people’s money is an issue to you right?

      I live a perfect life. I have fun, I go out, I travel, I get to do mostly what I want to. I plan for the future. But to do so means I have to work at a job that isn’t what I would otherwise choose to do.
      Be glad there’s people like me, who else is going to pay for your wonderfully empathetic social programs?

    • colin says:

      01:16pm | 14/09/12

      @Tim 01:03pm | 14/09/12

      “...in other words I haven’t been able to find a job that allows me to play golf, travel, party, gamble, drink all night, pick up chicks…”

      Oh, god, sorry to have even TRIED to talk to you sensibly about this…from the sentence I quoted I just realised; you’re a complete bogan and - ergo - completely incapable of seeing reason regarding REAL quality of life that doesn’t involve the bottom of a bottle and morally-questionable behaviour…

      Enjoy your “Life”

    • Elphaba says:

      01:42pm | 14/09/12

      “a complete bogan”

      @colin, you call everyone that on here, like it’s an insult. 

      For the record, I happen to think successful musicians enjoy their job, and make a ton of money whilst doing it.

      But that doesn’t detract from you denouncing everyone on here as bogans.  I think whatever sting you hoped it would have wore off long ago…

    • andrew says:

      01:43pm | 14/09/12

      Oh goodness; you’re just like Tim - too scared, too lazy or just too worried about money…

      actually i’m all three of those, but then there’s also the annoying fact that centrelink payments aren’t going to cover the mortgage and other living expenses. If i added up the years of lost income, study expenses and HECS debts i’d incur by returning to uni for another three years, i’d be about $250 000 worse off than if i just stay in my current job, plus the fact that a starting salary in a new career will be far lower, so lets make it a nice round $400,000 worse off over the next decade. Yes i can definitely justify that by feeling that i MAY be happier for a few weeks doing something different.

      There is only one thing that i could see myself enjoying doing 5 days a week for the next 40 years, and my girlfriend can tell you i’m not good enough at it to make a living out of it wink

    • Tim says:

      01:47pm | 14/09/12

      Colin,

      I give silly answers because your entire argument is illogical.

      You tell others to retrain and do something they love. When told its impossible to do so and earn the same/more money to enjoy life now and retire at a decent standard , you ignore it.

      Who do you think should pay to fund a persons retirement? Ah its other peoples money again right?

      And you still didn’t answer, what job/field are you in?

    • Tubesteak says:

      02:14pm | 14/09/12

      andrew @ 12:25pm hit the nail on the head.

      I’ll look for one of these magical mystery jobs that pays a lot and is actually rewarding when such a job exists. They don’t. The chances of changing profession now, starting at the bottom and working my way up to where I am now only to find I’m in exactly the same position now are close to 100%. It would be pointless to change. All work is tedious, monotonous, soul-destroying drudgery. That’s why they call it “work” and not something else. I don’t like work. I wouldn’t like any job. But if I earn enough I’ll be able to retire well before 40 years has clocked up and then I’ll be able to go out fishing and playing golf and sleeping in and watch TV as much as I like.

      PS Colin, there’s nothing morally questionable about travelling, golfing, gambling, drinking and picking up. They’re the markers of a well-lived life wink

    • colin says:

      02:50pm | 14/09/12

      @Tubesteak says: 02:14pm | 14/09/12

      “I’ll look for one of these magical mystery jobs that pays a lot and is actually rewarding when such a job exists. They don’t…”

      But, they DO. I have one!
      —-
      @Elphaba says: 01:42pm | 14/09/12

      “colin, you call everyone that on here, like it’s an insult…”

      It IS an insult..! If someone accepts it simply as a description of their own view of themselves, it is even MORE so..!

      Seriously; you can’t tell me that people who identify with such a description aren’t - in effect - simply even MORE of the ridiculous articles of derision such a term makes them..?
      —-
      @andrew 01:43pm | 14/09/12

      $250k worse off over 3 years..? That’s only just over $83k a year… If you got into the right job (and there are lots of them) you could easily triple that..!

    • Elphaba says:

      03:01pm | 14/09/12

      @colin, I don’t think anyone on here is taking it as an insult because it’s probably the most benign thing you could call someone.

      Frankly, you coming on here screeching ‘bogan!’ at anyone who disagrees with you is funny - like I said use it enough times and it loses all meaning.  According to you, almost everyone on here is a bogan.  It makes me wonder if you even know what it means.  None of the guys you’re accusing, for example, seem to have limited education - anyone can see that from their grammar and syntax…

    • andrew says:

      03:17pm | 14/09/12

      colin the 250K was factoring in what payments i could expect from centrelink if i returned to study, and is very much a conservative figure. As it is I could be earning more by doing two years on the job training + study by correspondance , funded largely by work - allowing me to work in a different speciality.I have so far chosen not to go down that path as i earn enough to live comfortably, enjoy spending my time outside of work doing things other than studying, and that new role would involve far more personal responsibility. I will probably be forced into taking that path at some stage in the future as it seems to provide better job security than my current role.

    • Tim says:

      03:42pm | 14/09/12

      Colin,
      I don’t think you actually know what a Bogan is. Can you provide us with your definition?

      Colin,
      If I did as you suggest I would be a lot more than $250k out of pocket. Now you somehow think I can find a magical mystery job that would make this up or somehow provide me with a self funded retirement? Sure, i believe you.

      “But, they DO. I have one!”

      And for the fourth time, what job/field do you work in?

      Don’t worry Colin, I know the reason you won’t answer this or any other question so I’m not expecting much.

    • Yuri says:

      04:02pm | 14/09/12

      I hope you realise, Colin, that the monotonous and boring jobs still have to be done by someone, they don’t just disappear just because you have an awesome job.

      Also, I hope today is your day off, because it would be pretty sad for you to be taking time away from your exciting job to post all day on the punch. If you’re going to take your magical job for granted like that, maybe you should let someone else have it who would actually appreciate it?

    • Joan Bennett says:

      08:09am | 14/09/12

      People never listen to advice.  No matter how old they are or how the advice is given.  People always fall into the same patterns of behaviour, no matter how badly it is working for them.
      If I had a dollar for every person I knew who kept jumping into a new relationship just a few short months after the old one went bung.  No autopsy on what happened and how to avoid the same pitfalls next time, so naturally they find themselves in almost identical situations with the same amount of angst (for themselves and their partners).  Why are people so afraid of change?  If it’s obviously for the better, why the hell wouldn’t you try a bit or analysis of your life and your situation?
      Love the sound of my own voice, even if it is on-line grin

    • Terence says:

      08:36am | 14/09/12

      This is exactly why the Elephants choose the eldest wisest Matriarch to lead them! You can lead them to water, but you can’t make them drink!

      The learning curve does come with age, but for some it just takes longer, that’s if they make it that far?

    • iMitchy says:

      03:23pm | 14/09/12

      You stumbled upon the point! Those elephants *choose* to follow the matriarch.

      This was the whole point of the original article by Hannah which most people seemed to miss. People do take advice - but people want to ask for advice from others who they respect and regard as having the experience and wisdom in the particular field in question.

      There is nothing worse than complete strangers (or friends who you have fundamental life choice differences with) offering you advice that you never asked for, don’t want or disagree with.

      Some examples:
      My dad is a school teacher and he is very conservative with his money. He is putting a lot of his income into an underperforming super fund to prepare for retirement. He loves to give me advice on money as he has recently paid off his ($90K) mortgage and considers himself a guru. I earn more than him and have a long way to go in my career, I have invested in the stock market and I amcurrently looking at a number of new business ideas. He insists that I should just keep all of my money in the bank.

      My wife gets similar rubbish advice, usually from strangers at the shopping centre. But one particular lady who is a friend of the family believes strongly that all women have the right to make their own decisions about pregnancy and birth and is an advocate of home birth. Of course this only applies if their decisions match her ideology. So when our obstetrician recommended a C-section to deliver our twins and we happily agreed, this woman was up in arms about us being forced into an unnatural birth procedure by some quack just because of silly “western conventional medicine”.

      It’s important to ask for advice from those who you consider knowledgable but it is equally as important to dismiss unwanted advice that you have not asked for. You’ll still remember it though and this just adds to life your life experience in the affirmative or otherwise.

    • Anonymous says:

      08:52am | 14/09/12

      I think the 22 year old had a point. It is one thing for advice to be given when asked for or to close relatives but the amount of people who give me (24yr old) unsolicited advice about when or when not to have children is astounding! People have assumed that because I’m female I must want children and then they start in with “don’t leave it too late” mantra.

      I would rather not have children at all than bring children into the world when neither my partner nor I are ready to make that significant commitment. Then I have sister-in-laws 3 or 4 years younger than myself who have babies condescendingly tell me “you don’t understand, you will when you have kids”, even when the topic we’re speaking about has nothing to do with children at all. It makes me even less inclined to have children if that is what it does to women.

      Granted, the early 20’s are a time when you know it all and scoff at most people trying to give you advice, but, if we all mess up, isn’t that our problem?

      I have spent my early 20’s and will spend my mid to late 20’s setting myself up in a career, gaining extra qualifications and travelling. If I leave it too late to have children of my own then that is my choice.

      I will add that I take career advice from both men and women who are older than me quite willingly, especially if they give me the advice and let me do what I will with it. I also accept financial advice from people qualified to give it. My father-in-law has been in the banking industry for a long time and I gladly take his advice, as well as any other tips people have for saving money.

      If I never got another piece of advice about having children it would make family gatherings so much more pleasant and would stop the feeling I get that my achievements mean nothing because I don’t have children yet.

    • Elphaba says:

      09:52am | 14/09/12

      Agree 100%, particularly on the ‘have kids before it’s too late!’ advice, that is the worst.

    • ByStealth says:

      09:58am | 14/09/12

      I have spent my early 20’s and will spend my mid to late 20’s setting myself up in a career, gaining extra qualifications and travelling. If I leave it too late to have children of my own then that is my choice.

      Good. Nothing wrong with weighing up the costs and making an informed decision. Accepting the consequences of our actions is what makes us adults.

    • Rose says:

      02:12pm | 14/09/12

      The have kids before it’s too late thing is a question of biology, the later it is when you have children the more likely it is that there will be trouble conceiving and maintaining a pregnancy and the higher the risk of birth abnormalities.
      HOWEVER, these are facts that should be taught in school biology, and once armed with the facts, people should be left to make up their own minds about what they are going to do.

    • iMitchy says:

      04:39pm | 14/09/12

      I agree to some extent Rose, but I think that the “don’t leave it too late” line should only come in response to the statement: “I plan to wait until my mid to late forties to have children”.

      I don’t know a single person who is not aware of the biological implications of later life birth. Receiving advice to not leave it too late due to medical reasons is as bad as those bastards who see me smoking on the street then come up and say “those things are bad for you”. I know, it’s actually written on the packet, and by the way, are you aware that the sky is blue? I hate those people - this is a good example of unsolicited advice actually.

      For that matter, there are so many reasons that someone might not kids yet and when strangers bring it up it doesn’t help. Maybe a person already knows that they biologically can’t have kids, maybe their partner can’t, maybe they don’t have a partner, or don’t have a partner that they feel confident to have kids with, maybe they are gay and can’t afford IVF or simply disagree with IVF, maybe they have lost so many pregnancies that they have decided that it hurts too much, maybe they feel that while they would love to have kids they don’t want to bring one into the world in the current state is in, maybe they simply don’t want kids. It has the potential to be quite a hurtful subject to bring up and if you think about it, when has anyone ever felt comfortable being given this advice or being pulled into a conversation about when to have a baby, whether with a friend, family member or stranger?

      You make a good point about making personal choices once armed with enough information though.

    • Scotchfinger says:

      04:47pm | 14/09/12

      @Anonymous, you want my advice? wink Get pregnant accidentally (oops, I forgot to take it, drat!) and buckle down for an Event similar in significance to having a meteor decimate your house. Except you don’t mind your house being destroyed! Having children is nothing to do with logic, forseeable outcomes and KPIs, and everything to do with having Life grab you unexpectantly from behind with small, warm, snotty hands.

    • angel says:

      11:36am | 14/09/12

      I find it’s worse once a woman becomes pregnant/has a baby. All of a sudden it’s just assumed that she is completely incapable and is just waiting for everybody to offer their ‘advice’.

      The classic one I hear is “you should work less / be a stay at home parent like I was”. OK, sure. Will you pay for us to eat in this case?

    • Elphaba says:

      11:52am | 14/09/12

      Very good point.  Many mothers don’t have a choice, and I’m sure if they did, a lot more wouldn’t rush back to work.

      It’s a different world, for sure.

    • sami says:

      01:56pm | 14/09/12

      This is me at 29-

      On work:

      At 22: I have no career aspirations. I’ll just do what makes me relatively happy and pays the bills.

      Now: I have no career aspirations. I’ll just do what makes me relatively happy and pays the bills.

      On babies and children:

      At 22: Don’t want them. Good on those people who do, but I have zero urge.

      Now: Don’t want them. Good on those people who do, but I have zero urge.

      On planning more than five minutes ahead:

      At 22: Essential. How else will I fit in social activities around work and rest?

      Now: Essential. How else will I fit in social activities around work and rest?

      On saving money:

      At 22: I get paid $18,000 a year for a full time job. Not much saving to be done after paying rent and bills. WIll focus on not accruing debt instead.

      Now: Debt free. Earning enough now to save. Am saving.

      Lesson: Every peson is an individual. Some of us genuinely don’t want advice from our ‘elders’ on when to have babies, how to get ahead in our careers etc as they DO NOT APPLY. Yet we are still inundated by the media and our acquaintances about it.

      I don’t think I’ll change that much in the next decade either. Why would I? I’m happy with my life, I’m not in any sort of emotional or financial strife. I don’t want for anything. Why keep saying “you’ll change your mind” about babies etc? Even if I magically do it’s not like there’s not an abundance of information freakin EVERYWHERE. I’ll just ask.

      Case closed.

      Someone pass Wendy the brush so she can tar us all.

    • Rose says:

      02:21pm | 14/09/12

      All people, male and female, should seek out advice from those whose opinions they respect and from those who have achieved whatever it is that they want to achieve. Age shouldn’t really come into it, expertise and trust is what’s important. Why would I take advice from some one older than me who I don’t wish to be anything like, and why wouldn’t I take advice from some one half my age (and I have done so) if they know what they’re talking. about?
      People need to stop being so damned precious about such things. It’s simple, young people, don’t kid yourself that you know everything, learn from those who know more about whatever it is that you want to know. Older people, don’t kid yourself that you know everything, learn from those who know more about whatever it is that you want to know.
      It’s not bloody rocket science!!

 

Facebook Recommendations

Read all about it

Punch live

Up to the minute Twitter chatter

Daniel Piotrowski

Found a TV meteorologist on Twitter with the last name Piotrowski. There's a whole newsroom of Piotrowskis out there

Paul Colgan

RT @businessinsider: Man Being Questioned For Boston Bombing Connection Shot And Killed By FBI by @paulszoldrahttp://t.co/OtypP2PRgI

Daniel Piotrowski

This is a must read @TheAtlantic. Whether you think you know everything or think you know nothing http://t.co/naoUutCoWF

Daniel Piotrowski

RT @JoshuaWithers: Have you seen the Australian version of Breaking bad? He get's cancer and Medicare covers his costs and the series ends.

Recent posts

The latest and greatest

The Punch is moving house

The Punch is moving house

Good morning Punchers. After four years of excellent fun and great conversation, this is the final post…

Will Pope Francis have the vision to tackle this?

Will Pope Francis have the vision to tackle this?

I have had some close calls, one that involved what looked to me like an AK47 pointed my way, followed…

Advocating risk management is not “victim blaming”

Advocating risk management is not “victim blaming”

In a world in which there are still people who subscribe to the vile notion that certain victims of sexual…

Nosebleed Section

choice ringside rantings

From: Hasbro, go straight to gaol, do not pass go

Tim says:

They should update other things in the game too. Instead of a get out of jail free card, they should have a Dodgy Lawyer card that not only gets you out of jail straight away but also gives you a fat payout in compensation for daring to arrest you in the first place. Instead of getting a hotel when you… [read more]

From: A guide to summer festivals especially if you wouldn’t go

Kel says:

If you want a festival for older people or for families alike, get amongst the respectable punters at Bluesfest. A truly amazing festival experience to be had of ALL AGES. And all the young "festivalgoers" usually write themselves off on the first night, only to never hear from them again the rest of… [read more]

Gentle jabs to the ribs

Superman needs saving

Superman needs saving

Can somebody please save Superman? He seems to be going through a bit of a crisis. Eighteen months ago,… Read more

28 comments

Newsletter

Read all about it

Sign up to the free News.com.au newsletter