Would you kill for a job?

Roger Ramjet says:

01:00pm | 10/02/12

On the contrary, you’d have to be a completely callous bastard to do such work! How else could you?  Some of them do get off on it too so that’s real healthy, no wonder they live out their sicko fantasies! Really if you couldn’t do it yourself you shouldn’t really eat it. I try not to as much as possible, but I’m weak, like most of you.  Anyone who eats veal is a monster though, I’ll say that much.

Sharon says:

01:26pm | 10/02/12

If abattoir walls were made of glass, most people would be vegetarian .... those with any compassion and empathy for other sentient creatures that is.

Interesting that tours of abattoirs and factory farms are not a popular school excursion option or educational outing for families.

The meat, dairy and egg industries, as well as most consumers, want the bloody cruel truth to be kept hidden, lest it reduce profits and put them off their Sunday roast!  Deliberate hypocritical ignorance.

Yes, I am a very healthy happy long-term vegan (and don’t wear/use leather, wool or products that contain animal flesh or have been tested on animals).

Not saying my impact is totally harmless, but for me it’s all about a choice to do less harm.

Fezzbo says:

01:29pm | 10/02/12

Wow, Rog, way to over-react pal… Did you cry while you were ranting just now?

Now quiet down while the rest of us carry on with rational debate…

AW says:

01:35pm | 10/02/12

@ Roger Ramjet - I’m assuming you know a few people (at least one!) who have worked at an abattoir? Because you’re making a fair few assumptions here if you don’t!
One of my best friends spent a summer working at a pig’s abattoir in Queensland - a very intellectual, well read and artistic young woman who needed a job while living up there.
As Amy said above, she has always described the workplace as an insanely sterile warehouse, and said the the time she spent there was a fantastic experience, it changed her outlook on a lot of things (not just the way animals are killed to feed us) and the people she met and worked with were wonderful characters and some of the hardest working people she knows.
Just because you feel that you would have to be ‘a completely callous bastard’ to do this work doesn’t mean that’s the truth, it just means that it’s your opinion. Someone has to do the killing for you ‘weak moments’
Also - veal is delicious, to each their own.

Al says:

01:43pm | 10/02/12

Sharon: Re: ..(and don’t wear/use leather, wool or products that contain animal flesh…).
Actualy you do, do you eat any grain, lentils etc. that have been harvested by machinery? If yes then you ARE consuming animal flesh, it is that simple.

Bulldog says:

02:33pm | 10/02/12

Watch Food Inc and then give us your opinion

Jane2 says:

02:33pm | 10/02/12

@Sharon, having done a tour of a chicken factory I think it SHOULD be a school excursion. I dont think it will make people become vegetarian, i think it will make people realise the total BS that come out of the mouths of people who object to eating meat on morale grounds.

As a manage for certain chicken fast food place, a tour was a compulsary part of management training so we knew the truth to counter the idiots who come up to the counter and through abuse at staff.

In general they are very sterile, very humane places where animals are killed quickly.

My question with this latest video is how much money did PETA pay this time?

Sarah says:

03:26pm | 10/02/12

Roger Ramjet - After reading your rant I have to say I am ashamed that there are still such narrow minded people out there. I myself worked in an abattoir for three years after leaving school. No it was not through lack of education or empathy for animals. I studied biology, chemistry, physics & maths in V.C.E. and still hope to go into veterinary nursing. But with no jobs in the small town of 1000 people that I lived in the only option I had to save money and pay my bills was the local abattoir. Yes you get the odd person that is an idiot and appears to have no feelings whatsoever towards animals. But the majority of people care about the animals and have the respect to make sure the end of their life is as pain and stress free as possible. Before you make such harsh judgments you should get your facts straight first. These idiots that have been shown are not acting in the way the majority do and most people I know in the industry are horrified that they have been portrayed in such a way. As for the fact that you try and eat as little meat as possible, you are a more weak and callous bastard than the people brave enough to work in such an industry to provide you with your meat as you sit there and judge but won’t do anything about it. Having to work in an environment like that has caused me to have more respect for what I am eating and I make sure that nothing gets wasted in my home.

Bertrand says:

03:32pm | 10/02/12

I did a short stint as a meatpacker in an abattoir in my university years.  It was exactly as you describe it - a sterile place where the slaughtering was done as humanely as possible.

Interestingly they were very strict about who they hired - no-one with convictions for violent crimes and no-one who couldn’t pass a drug test.

Why did I do it? Well I did heavy labouring work throughout united and meatpacking paid better than similar work not in an abattoir.

Why did I quit? Working in an industry that required constant random drug tests wasn’t my thing. This goes to show that a well run abattoir won’t keep dodgy staff.

Roger Ramjet says:

03:41pm | 10/02/12

Well I was right, you’re weak. Gee sorry Sarah how is not eating meat making me more weak? And you respond like i was having a go at you. I was generalising which is probably a mistake but sure did bring out the ferals. Kudos to you if there are places like you describe but I do have a family connection from an abbatoir and I heard there were dead set psychos in that place. Also, apart from the cruelty side i tend to think it’s not very good for you either, I don’t think our guts are meant for it, particularly red meat. Bowel cancer!! No thanks.

Sharon says:

03:43pm | 10/02/12

No Amy, they are far from ‘clinical’. They are noisy, stinking horrific places where acts of unspeakable cruelty (which would be met with outrage if done to dogs) are commited with regularity hidden from view or repercussion.
I witnessed awful tortuos treatment of animals at a Melbourne abattoir in the 1990’s, reported it…nothing happened..it continued..I just wish I had had the bravery (and the technology) to film it.We must all take responsibility for the cruelty and suffering in these places. The workers inflict it, but if you consume animal products…you too are responsible for the gruesome deaths the animals must endure. Surely taking their lives is enough? Must they be tortured as well? The government must act and ensure CCTV is installed and monitored in all abattoirs - this is not an abberation or a one off.

PsychoHyena says:

03:52pm | 10/02/12

@Sharon, do you drive a car? Ride a bike? What do you wear on your feet? I find it impossible to believe that in this day and age you can go through a normal day without coming into any animal product out of necessity.

Chances are you are using products containing these without even knowing it.

Chop Cop says:

03:54pm | 10/02/12

Are deaf and blind? Can’t you see what the slaughters doing in video?

Nick says:

04:19pm | 10/02/12

@Jane2 First of all, I’m fairly sure PETA had nothing to do with it. Secondly, I’m sure if your employer is organise a tour for you they’re going to make sure that everything looks nice and pretty. Wake up!

Sharon says:

05:52pm | 10/02/12

@Al - You might like to read my last sentence again, perhaps you missed it?

“Not saying my impact is totally harmless, but for me it’s all about a choice to do less harm.”

Mark/Fox says:

09:37pm | 10/02/12

Do you know how much Flora and Fauna we destroy to grow one Lettuce,a carton of milk, one egg, etc, etc, !!!!! Cruelty? Allowing our population to grow to the level it has is cruel. This pipe dream or Bambi syndrome people have is bizarre, seems to me that so many people do not look at the bigger picture. I must say that uneccesary cruelty is very wrong, but eating meat, isnt that just part of life or should we now start starving our pet cats and dogs because killing animals is wrong.

Fiona says:

07:31pm | 11/02/12

I used to live and work near a big abattoir and never met anyone that was a completely callous bastard. A lot of people only work there short term, as it is hard, physically and emotionally, but unless you see animals die regularly for our food like most of us it isn’t something you’re used to. Perhaps we’d waste less if we saw more of what happens to the animals that are killed to feed us.

Mark Kennedy says:

01:49pm | 12/02/12

I agree with Betrand, and I’m compelled to note that much of the commentary (what a surprise) is people who actually know nothing about how the greater portion of Abattoirs operate; cleanly, efficiently and humanely. Not only did I work in an abattoir for six months, I was also born into a family that ran one. Most of my co workers were, as the article suggests, lower-educated than some parts of the workforce. I am also now a sociology grad. and whilst I find the correlations of the data provocative, to say abattoir workers cannot distinguish between human and animal suffering is tenuous. I’ve spent a good deal of time in abattoirs (and around cattle in general) and it always saddens me if the culling is less than quick or efficient. That said, I was always mindful that it was part of a necessary function, which required me to look beyond the immediately repellent aspects of the job. Simple utilitarianism really.

Super D says:

02:26pm | 10/02/12

Spot on Adam, If you won’t kill it yourself or at least understand how it’s done you shouldn’t be eating it.

I’ve been to abbatoirs, feed lots and farms.  I’m comfortable knowing where my steak comes from.

I think the biggest issue with meat production is that the consumers these days are very distant from the production process.  That hand vegan hippies have a voice far larger than their number.

Nathan Explosion says:

03:05pm | 10/02/12

I spent my summers in the country and Papa took us to lots of farms - trout farm, deer farm, turkey farm and a regular farm - so we were always aware of where our meat came from.

The farmers I saw did their slaughter in proper and quick way. The animals didn’t appear to be distressed.

That said, I don’t think I could do it myself. I’ve killed mice and birds when the cats get them and it’s better than letting them die slowly in shock, but I don’t think I could actually work in a meatworks. I’m too much of a softy. I’d befriend them and then I couldn’t do it.

Kika says:

03:13pm | 10/02/12

Listen, Super D. So you’ve been to a factory farm too? Or a piggery? Still think it’s comfortable knowing where your meat comes from? How can it be ok to think of animals who should be LIVING happily and well are kept in concentration camps and tortured and left to basically die in there if it wasn’t for the antibiotics and sht they feed them keeping them alive?

Maybe 50 years ago it was a simple thing of a farmer raising his animals to be slaughtered.. but now the whole life and death cycles of 99.9% of these animals is just appalling.

Guess what? I’m not a hippy either.

Super D says:

03:50pm | 10/02/12

@Kika - Where is this wondrous utopia where the farm animals run free?  Manor Farm?

There is no such thing as a non-hippie vegan.

Kika says:

04:24pm | 10/02/12

Yep - you’re right. 99.9% of all animals come from factory farms these days. It wasn’t always like that. They used to only come from free range farms. But with the 60’s came an accidental experiment in producing as many chickens as possible when a lady in Delaware received 10,000 chicks instead of 100 she ordered. She kept them alive and her principles changed the way farming was done forever.

libertarian vegetarian says:

08:44pm | 10/02/12

@Super D
Actually there is such a thing as a non hippie vegan. Admittedly we are rare though;)
Old Mc Donalds farm no longer exists, animals are merely a product, animal welfare concerns exist only to make sure they are not shut down.
My ex sheep farmer, ex sheep mulesing contractor (out of economic necessity) husband wouldn’t eat meat either, despite the fact he killed his own for many years.  And abbatoirs don’t slaughter like the farmer killing for his own food. So many of the stories of abbatoir workers are so horrible its beyond me now to relate them.
Certainly, anyone that wants to eat meat should be prepared to slaughter their own.  Otherwise they are a pathetic hypocrit.
Over the years I’ve made a minor study of the correlation between violent killers and abbatoir workers, it’s awful stuff.
Think Fred West (abbatoir van driver) Anita Cobbys murderers, Katherine Knight (meatworker who killed and skinned her boyfriend then cooked him up in a stew). There is example after example.
I like my peaceful life. I know any agriculture causes death to animals.
I’m trying to keep it as low as I can.  I’m a libertarian, so I’ll never try to legislate against your meat eating, I’ll spend my life looking for arguements to convince you to walk the kinder path.

Kate says:

10:01pm | 11/02/12

@libertarian - Jeffrey Dahmer worked in a chocolate factory, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold worked in a pizza parlour. Does this mean working with sweets or fast food makes you a killer, too?
The only think those serial killers have in common is mental illness, most commonly psychopathy. Fred West actually had quite a number of jobs and his wife, who never worked in the meat industry, was just as vicious.

Lisa says:

01:53pm | 10/02/12

I agree - if animals are to be killed for human consumption, utmost care should be taken to ensure that they are happy and well cared for until the time they are (quickly and humanely) killed.

Zeta says:

02:20pm | 10/02/12

There’s no such thing as a quick death for an animal. The quickest is probably a gun shot. Large calibre rifle round kills from shock. But that’s assuming you don’t miss. Blunt force trauma to the skull has mixed results - an abattoir I once visited used a bolt gun and I can tell you it was neither quick nor clean.

Electrocution sounds quick, but it’s not painless. It’s probably incredibly painful for the few seconds it takes to kill.

Gas is out of the question because there is no nerve agent that won’t render the mean inedible. There was a company in the US that tried nerve gas to slaughter large numbers of chickens at once as a cost cutting measure, then they’d treat the meat with amonium hydroxide to clean out the residue. If you ever have to do a Six Sigma efficency course you learn that one. The reason it never went ahead was because the rate of contamination in the meat was 1.6 per cent - and Six Sigma means your failure rate can only be 1.5. What’s most frightening about that is that somewhere, in some board room, some Six Sigma black belt decided a 1.5 per cent chance of mycotoxicity in supermarket chicken was acceptable.

I think in the future, they’ll genetically modify animals with DNA killswitches. Cow lives to maturity, then its organs just shut down and die. You could have fully automated farms, where animals just wander around until they cark it. Then drone farm machinery will trundle over, pick up the carcass, and take it to get butchered by robots.

Of course, we’d be in a whole world of hurt if that kind of GM tampering ever altered our own DNA, and we ended up dieing after we were big enough to eat.

Nathan Explosion says:

03:02pm | 10/02/12

I totally agree.

Give the animal a good life and slaughter it as quickly and painlessly as possible.

Those guys up there are heartless bastards, and are not representative of the industry as a whole.

Kika says:

03:23pm | 10/02/12

I absolutely agree Elphaba. I’d eat eggs if I knew they were 100% REAL free range (not kept in a tiny square size space not unlike a ‘cage’ and have the door to the small running space open a few times a day for thousands of chickens to share). I think all meat eaters should demand their animals are free range and not factory farmed. Not only for the taste, but for the environment, for the welfare of the animals and just because it’s right!

But again we sit like chumps and let conglomerates get away with the sht they do and we sit there merrily chomping down on our steak (slow death and life suffering) happy and content slurping our milk (traces of blood and mucus coz the cow had mastitis) and eating our bacon (who when alive had a bite taken out of him from a fellow pig who went mad with frustration).

I mean they blast the vaporised sht into the air! It’s toxic! No wonder why there’s animals dying in droves around the world… those birds probably flew into a pig sht vapour and died of neurological complications from the gases.

Gordon says:

01:03pm | 10/02/12

It would be much easier to kill people in battle than slaughter animals by cutting their throats. One reason Americans do war so easily. Shooting from a long distance isn’t personal, you don’t necessarily get dirty, you can convince yourself they deserved it. Animals are innocent regardless, how do you reconcile that?

Nima says:

01:24pm | 10/02/12

It is hard too reconcile Gordon i agree. Animals are intelligent and do have emotions. Any animal slaughter is cruel, and hard to reconcile other than the human selfishness to eat meat for nutrition or taste purposes.

But in the food chain animals kill other animals in the ocean and in the jungle, so does it makes animals any less moral than us. Surviving on there selfish instinct to survive. We are human too.

I supposes the way to reconcile it is, only kill animals that were born for food production, or medical animal testing to help humans work out cures for human diseases. We can’t clone humans for that i hope that never happens.

So it is not as cruel knowing that these animals only came into the world for 1 reason for food or medical testing, not animals that were born naturally to be in the wild and contribute to the world’s ecosystem.

But the physical act Gordon of killing and taking life of wild and non wild animals does not change, i can’t deny or reconcile that, just the reasons for killing or death are more rational, and logical.

Johno says:

01:30pm | 10/02/12

You forgot:

Politician - you get to send people to foreign countries to be tortured and killed

Public servant - you get to write policies which see people die.

Kika says:

04:04pm | 10/02/12

Nima how is it ok to think that animals raised for suffering and slow painful deaths is ok? It’s not. Often the death part is the best part of these animals lives. Where do we have the right to subject animals to torture all in the name of vanity and medical testing? Like testing live monkeys and rabbits by squirting sht in their eyes all die until they die. How is that a natural part of the ‘food chain’?

Oh yeah, food chain. Let’s talk about that. Human food chain… so I suppose your talking back out in the Savannah and humans running around hunting. Well, lets look at it this way. Yes. Our ancestors hunted for SURVIVAL (not taste). However, more and more evidence is showing that we didn’t start eating meat by hunting alone, but by scavenging. That’s why we still have more teeth designed for grinding, and long intestines and long bowels for digesting plant fibre. We also have less stomach acid than carnivourous animals because we’re not designed to eat so much meat.  And certainly not raw. That’s why we have to cook our meat first. Unlike a cat or a dog who can eat them pretty much fresh of the carcass. Japan, who consumes a lot of raw meat, also has high rates of stomach cancers. And yes, the learning and surveying of the environment to find meat helped our frontal lobe development and bipedalism

Our first ancestors would have eaten meat when the opportunity came up. We did not eat meat at every meal.

Food Scientist says:

09:51pm | 10/02/12

@Kika,
“That’s why we still have more teeth designed for grinding, and long intestines and long bowels for digesting plant fibre. We also have less stomach acid than carnivourous animals because we’re not designed to eat so much meat.’

Nonsense. The human gut is actually very short (6m) and similar to that of a dog. It is nothing like the gut of a herbivore such as a horse or cow.  Our teeth have very thin enamel and are totally unsuited for chewing fibrous materials. Our stomachs are just as acidic as those of dogs or cats.

In many cases you can’t tell what an animal eats by examining it’s teeth or gut. The teeth and digestive system of a polar bear and a panda are virtually identical despite polar bears being pure carnivores and pandas being 99% vegetarian. In fact Western scientists initially refused to accept that pandas ate bamboo because they have the anatomy of carnivores.

Most hunter-gatherers that have been studied eat 2-4x as much meat as westerners.

Mike says:

10:24pm | 10/02/12

Gordon, not if it’s a crocodile, lion or a shark. 

If that animal is coming to kill me when I am taking a peaceful walk through the bush / swim in the sea on a Sunday arvo, minding my own business, then it’s fair game (sic) for me to go and blow it’s @$%ing head off up close and personal. 

In that case, the animal is not innocent, much as if it was someone trying to assault me for whatever reason and I would do exactly the same.

Plus, if we’re not meant to eat animals, how come they’re made of meat ?

Nima says:

07:16pm | 10/02/12

So kika according to your logic are you saying we all should be vegetarian. or are you suggesting if we eat meat we can only hunt animals. What is your point.
Are you saying in other words lets be vegetarian, i am confused.
With the medical testing part i have seen the images on you tube of medical testing science labs. And they are awful no question. But what do you suggest. it is undeniable medical testing on animals have helped medical science and human disease and helping animal disease cures too.
So what do you suggest are you implying we be vegetarian, and how else do we find cures for human medical diseases. Your not really making any points about what you stand for or any options to the 2 problems.
Other than are you suggesting we be vegetarian, and ban all medical science testing on animals.
Of course i would like both, but non practical i am not going to put humans less backward in medical disease cures, and for animals cures.
These animals were born only for farming food production, and medical testing, not born in the wild ,Kika. It is the only reason they came in to the world as you admitted Kika.

John2 says:

02:03pm | 10/02/12

I though the communists were the most brutal. Stalin encouraged the rape of the German women in Berlin. How many french and russian women were raped by the Nazi’s? next to zero

Yet the Germans held the moral low ground. How strange is that.

John says:

02:54pm | 10/02/12

It was an example, not a singling out, dickhead.

But if it will make you feel better, the others were awful too.

James1 says:

03:49pm | 10/02/12

“How many french and russian women were raped by the Nazi’s? next to zero”

I nearly fell off my chair laughing at that.  Do you seriously believe this to be a fact?

“Yet the Germans held the moral low ground. How strange is that.”

Now I’m concerned.  Have you never heard of a thing called the Holocaust?  Or Operation Barbarossa?  Germany during World War Two was a barbarian state.  They did the worst things that anyone in history has every done.  The Germans stand as the only people ever to try to wipe out an entire race.  If that is not the moral low ground, I don’t know what is.  No matter what else Stalin did (and he did some terrible things), he never set up camps designed to gas children simply for being Jewish.

Wynston Cruso says:

05:17pm | 10/02/12

“They did the worst things that anyone in history has every done.”

They A-bombed a civilian city? Oh wait…

James1 says:

07:04pm | 10/02/12

Really Wynston?  I thought you were smarter than that.  Do you really believe that two nuclear bombs make the US worse than Nazi Germany?  Are you saying there is moral equivalence between the Holocaust and the American decision to end the war by bombing two cities?

I sincerely hope not.

Engi says:

10:11pm | 10/02/12

James you are overreacting somewhat. Yes the Germans were bad, but not necessarily much worse than other nations. Your facts are in error. There have been many genocides and attempted genocides long before 1939 and since. The Holocaust was the simply the worst.

We Australians, hunted down and killed aborigines or did you forget?
We stole their children and tried to decimate their culture by assimilation. We did this in the belief that aborigines would die out, which is a type of genocide! Its just less violent and gruesome. We exterminated all the aborigines in Tasmania.

A quick search for genocides in history and there are hundreds.
Genocide by the Hutus against the Tutsi in Rwanda between April and June 1994, 800,000 Rwandans were killed
Combodian genocide 1975-1979 1.7 million dead.
Russian genocide in the 19th centaury 1-1.5 millions Circassians were killed
The Spanish effectively wiped out the Aztec empire.
As for WW2
The Japanese, massacred 1000s and ran camps that were as bad as the German ones but for some reason people chose to forget this. Also remember that WW2 was not the world against the Germans only.
You are so quick to accuse and so quick to forget the actions of your own ancestors. Hypocrite!

Andrew says:

11:01pm | 10/02/12

Yes james1 he does, he actually believes that winston churchill is no better then Hitler, that Churchill was as big as war monger as Hitler. Believe it or not James1 dickeads like him do exist.

Andrew says:

11:04pm | 10/02/12

So were is the evidence Engi, instead of the left wing Hype. We done a prietty piss poor job if that was our goal. Are u telling me that if our ancestors wanted to wipe them out they wouldnt have done so.

Your name:Kris says:

01:39pm | 10/02/12

I’m not sure the aim of the article was to assist the already floundering meat industry. 
I can think of something worse for it though, than a greenie, animal welfare feminist with a cross to bear or book to sell.
Wanna guess?
There’s nothing worse for an already floundering meat industry than the fact that it continues to do the same things over and over and over again and keeps getting caught.  More people are eating less meat every single time they see *another* ‘one off’ incident of unnecessary, horrendous and frivolous act of cruelty by *another* ‘in-ordinary’ group of abattoir workers in an industry apparently otherwise filled with kind-hearted people who care about the immediate well-being of the animals whose throat they’re about to hack open.
And here I was thinking all advertising was good advertising…

Fezzbo says:

02:50pm | 10/02/12

Kris, have you ever seen a Zebra or a Wildebeest torn to shreds by a predator on a Nature Documentary? It’s not nice. Blood sprays. Guts fall out. Bones crunch. All while the thing is lying there, legs kicking, yelping and being eaten alive.

Point is, there is really no such thing as “humane killing”. And if there is, it happens in abbatoirs. I’m sure ‘Old Daisy’ would rather go quickly at the hands of a skilled slaughterman than get dismembered by a Lion or a Croc.

A food chain requires living things to become dead things. Our species (aside from those happy to survive on synthetically produced proteins) needs meat to continue. Unless you or any other animal welfare person are volunteering to pull the trigger yourself, I suggest you sit down and enjoy a tofu block with soy milk.

As to the real point I was trying to make? I was in fact sympathising with the people working in the slaughter house who are copping the blame for being “callous bastards” and “sickos”.

Tory made a direct line for tham saying employees of slaughterhouses perform “violent crimes” on average more than any other industry. Unless she can back that up by saying they were non-violent before they entered the industry, she is just sensationalising.

Once again, I don’t see many organisations lining up to employ these types once they’ve finished their sentence. What other options do they have? You wouldn’t hire a person with murderous tendancies in a childcare position would you…

Kris says:

03:36pm | 10/02/12

If you’re happy to place your own moral compass and ethical stance equal to that of a predator tearing a wildebeest apart, that that’s up to you.
I like to think that, given the ability to reason, use foresight, wonder about the future and have a good sense of empathy for my fellow beings, that I could probably use those tools to aim a little higher than the morality of an obligate carnivore on the Serengeti.  That’s just me though.
The lion has teeth, strength, speed and stealth.  We have the intellectual ability to create using vision, and opposable thumbs, both of which allow us to create and use tools and do things like farm.  Surely to god there’s no need for us to abuse an animal before we kill it in a similar way to a lion?  She’s not sadistic - she’s using her skills for her meal.  The people on that footage were behaving in a way that was SO far below the lion morally and ethically that it doesn’t bear comparison.  She NEEDS to tear her kill up in order to kill it.  She NEEDS to hurt and injure it so that she can position herself for her kill.  Those guys are just doing it for kicks.  They have the tools; they just would rather have a little of their own brand of fun.  The lion is not a sadist.
I therefore stand by my comment that the relatively constant stream of unnecessary cruelty coming out of slaughterhouses is the thing that’s doing damage to the meat industry; not greenie hippy feminist whatever else you said.
We don’t need meat to survive, nor soy or tofu.  People can survive quite well on fresh foods, getting all the protein, calcium, iron, B12 etc that they need.  I’m not interested in the vegan debate though - that wasn’t the point of my post.  A said, and continue to say, that until the footage such as yesterday’s STOPS coming out of slaughterhouses, more and more people will continue to eat less and less meat, and it is THAT which is more likely to bring down the industry than the article above.
I’m cognisant of the fact that the majority of people in this country want to eat meat, and therefore see themselves as a part of the food-chain in that regard.  I just don’t know where the rule is that being ‘higher’ in the food-chain gives an intelligent species to e as needlessly cruel, sadistic and torturous as they want.

Your correlation between Daisy going at the hands of a slaughterhouse worker vs a croc is a little odd.  Being a quicker, cleaner and less torturous kill than that which a croc might do doesn’t make it a quick, clean or torture free kill.  We do it better than a croc, and that’s supposed to be enough?  With all our technology, pain relief, sending of people to the moon, all we can aim for is to provide a better kill than a croc?  Really?
My comment wasn’t related to the connection between crime and slaughterhouse work.  It was a direct response to your final sentence.

Fezzbo says:

04:43pm | 13/02/12

I’m not placing my moral compass anywhere. It’s planted firmly beside my dislike for flag-waving belief-pushers.

What I’m saying is the Lion accepts that it needs meat to survive and does what it needs to get it. The human race (generally) accepts that it needs meat to survive and does what it needs to get it. By the way, being higher in the food chain does give us the right to kill and consume animals. Hence my point about the Lion.

Digging further into your argument… Some person in history has come up with the idea of a slaughterhouse and used reason, foresight and opposable thumbs to design and build it. Not maliciously, not as a house of death as you would like to believe but a means to provide meat to the masses. I’d assume you have people like that to thank for your organically grown veggies. I’ll bet they ate a steak every so often, the smart ones usually do…

And as to your claim of a relatively constant stream of media? Give me a break. One provable instance of cruelty in a long history of meat production does not a credible argument make. A pig/cow/lamb/chicken gets killed and eaten and you want me to cry about it? Please.

By the way, I’m not in any way condoning cruelty to animals. I think that what occured is terrible and as I understand, the slaughterthouse where this act occured has enforced discipline on their workers. Regrettably, the cow was still processed further and turned into sausages.

And in defence of my final sentence, I’d rather keep eating meat and supporting an industry that helps sustain our country than bow out to a greeny, socialist, animal welfare, feminist with a cross to bear/book to sell. I’ll take well-fed over over-educated anyday.

Kika says:

03:17pm | 10/02/12

“And if you eat meat someone has to kill it first, it doesnt magically appear in plastic wrapped containers on your supermarket shelves”

Your absolutely right. I know many people who 100% of the time say they are an animal lover and love their pets and abhor animal cruelty, who also eat meat, and refuse to acknowledge that they are eating a dead animal. My mother’s mother is a vegetarian and told the kids the meat they were eating was just ‘plastic’ meat. My mums the only one of her sisters to remain a meat eater. And she still cannot accept that meat is dead animals and was alive once. It’s bizarre.

Kassandra says:

03:49pm | 10/02/12

@ Kika:
So what? The vegetables you eat are dead too. Or are they? Do you hear the screaming of the baby broccoli as you bite their heads off?

Kris says:

04:41pm | 10/02/12

Are we really going to go down the ‘carrots have feelings too’ path?

Vegetation is not sentient, people.  If science ever proves it to be sentient there’ll be a fair few people re-thinking their dietary choices, but right now we know it’s not.  We know animals are, and that they think and feel and have complex nervous systems that relay pain to their brains.

Whatever your dietary choices, it’s not really a very clever comparison, is it?

St. Michael says:

02:16pm | 10/02/12

“I guess it makes sense that being around death all the time leads to it being a little of a nothing issue for some.”

Quoted for truth.  You think your average undertaker has a nervous breakdown after work every day?

Bulldog says:

02:30pm | 10/02/12

#St Michael I think you’ll find the funeral industry does have a high turnover rate due to being around constant grief. Gets a bit wearing wouldn’t you think? Same as aged and palliative care mate.

MarkF says:

10:03am | 11/02/12

When I worked in a foundry pouring steel amongst other jobs there, people had the same sort of conversation.  In their case it was wondering how much would be left of the body after you tossed it in the furnace with the molten steel.  I suppose we melted pig iron to make the steel.  That would be close to an animal wouldn’t it?

Get It Right says:

12:53pm | 11/02/12

In regard to St Michael’s quote, it is relatively easy to become accustomed to death, yes. I used to work in a hospice where we had 2 deaths a day on average, that is 720 a year. You do get used to it, but you do still care. When you find yourself experiencing compassion fatigue, that’s the clue to get out of the job. Ask any emergency worker and they’ll say the same thing.

In fact, some of the toughest buggers I’ve ever met were homicide detectives. These guys (as well as ambos and forensic pathologists) deal with the very worst that humans are capable of, but they still CARE. The Ds celebrate hard when they get a win because justice for the victim and their families makes their job worth doing.

Get It Right says:

01:11pm | 12/02/12

I should add that black humour and somewhat cold- blooded private conversations are normal for anyone who works around death. It’s part of the way we cope, as well as with regular debriefing sessions. The pub’s good too.

Another thing to remember is that morgue and funeral staff are screened and assessed very carefully to exclude those with an unhealthy attitude. The same would seem a good idea for abbatoir workers.The CCTV monitoring happening in some places mentioned below should be
extended to all meatworks.

Ms A Hodges says:

08:31pm | 13/02/12

I would rather eat grass than kill anything!I was particularly disturbed to see black Berkshire? pigs being bashed with iron bars.This breed is often grown as free range pork,leading a reasonable life,if not short,but it seems that these poor animals all end up at the same horrible commercial abattoirs?!What kind of human beings can do this?Have they no conscience at all?I would never have expected to see this kind of monstrous happening in this country where we are supposed to have animal welfare laws?!Or are meat animals just exempt and expendable?!Workers who treat animals with such callousness should be charged!!!!!

Al says:

02:04pm | 10/02/12

Gee, does that make me a Psychopath or Sociopath?
I am quite happy to go and hunt Feral animals for my dinner, did so since I was a child.
And using Bow and Arrow means you have to get close and be sure of your shot otherwise you simply wound the animal and cause suffering.

Other jobs that kill for a living:
Grain harvester operator. (Ever wonder how many dead animals end up in your corn, wheat, flour etc).
National Park Ranger.

Kate says:

10:05pm | 11/02/12

@Al, I think the fact that you’re aware of the potential for suffering, and that you try to minimise it by using a bow and arrow, would mean you definitely are not a psychopath.
Shooting animals for meat or sport doesn’t indicate ‘psychopath’ to me, more like if you were dropping them in acid or ripping limbs off them for fun or something really unnecessary and disgusting.

Zeta says:

02:38pm | 10/02/12

Halal is the type of meat, that is, the opposite of Haram. The type of slaughter that’s called Hala is Dhabihah. I’ve seen abattoirs and I can tell you, the Dhabihah is more humane.

What I think is slightly more humane than Dhabihah is the Jewish Shechita for one simple reason - while both are performed with a razor sharp knife, the Jewish chalef knife is, pardon the pun, a cut above.

Jewish law mandates the knife must be twice as long as the animal’s head is wide, have no point, and no serrations. Also biblical law assumes all blades are imperfect, and before each animal is killed, a trained person must check the blade with the back of his fingernail. A sakim or challef might be sharpened many times before it’s used on a single animal, and many times again for the next.

Also, the Torah says you can’t ‘press’ with the blade. It has to be so sharp that you don’t need to.

Finally, the Dhabibah mandates the nervous system of the animal not be damage, because if it dies of any cause apart from the cut, it’s technically carrion, which is Haram. But in the Shechita, everything is cut so quickly it’s likely the animal has half bled to death before the nerves in the throat could reasonably transmit the pain to the brain.

You should read about it, and watch it, before you make a purely cultural decision based on an intrinsic Western distrust of Middle Eastern traditions.

SimonFromLakemba says:

02:47pm | 10/02/12

Good post Zeta

Kika says:

02:51pm | 10/02/12

Greg, nobody is saying that halal or kosher is perfect. But the true essence of the slaughter in both traditions is miles ahead of the lack of care given in today’s factory farms and abbatoirs. In true halal the animal should be separated from the others to prevent the others from stressing and to keep the animal to be slaughtered calm. The animal should be blessed and then the neck cut with a sharp knife very fast to ensure the animal dies quickly and painlessly.

Of course, this worked best in the desert where the tribe could be fed on one goat every now and then. People have the same desire for meat as the rest of the world does now, so with increased demand for meat comes factory farming and factory halal where the animals are not trully sacrificed and slaughtered without stress and humanely.

This is why there are a lot of advocates in Islam and Judaism alike who want to promote their followers to vegetarianism - because if you can be sure that the slaughter WAS proper then you should abstain.

Wynston Cruso says:

05:37pm | 10/02/12

What I find interesting about Dhabihah is that it is meant to be performed, according to tradition, by someone who is sane. Yet this method was supposedly partly derived from the teachings of a completely bat shit insane schitzo pedophile rapist. The whole thing was so that whatever you are going to eat will be slaughtered at an altar in the name of God, which is equally as bat shit insane as the guy who derived it. I honestly couldn’t care less about how something that we have domesticated and bred for the sole purpose of eating is killed, and I highly doubt we’d produce enough meat to feed everyone if we worried about hurting the feelings of my porterhouse steak with mushroom sauce.

jimmy of Melbourne says:

01:14pm | 10/02/12

No, not at all. Its more a statement of the obvious and points to the racism in Australia that often leads to immigrants having to take poorly paid, unappealing jobs… like killing animals…

Emilia says:

01:20pm | 10/02/12

I don’t think it’s racist at all. I think if anything it’s pointing out that our society depends on racism and other people’s disadvantage to do all the shitty jobs - like killing animals - that more advantaged would never dream of doing.

Kika says:

03:27pm | 10/02/12

It’s true. Most are immigrants who can’t get jobs doing anything else. Some phenomena happens in America too.

Mike says:

10:20pm | 10/02/12

Tory, the system is already there.  That’s why qualified, Indian engineers are driving taxis as students when Australia has a shortage of engineers.  That’s why VETASSESS check migrant Bachelor qualifications when they already hold higher, Australian postgraduate qualifications (they did with me…duh ?!).  What on earth for ?!

That’s why the international experience that expat Aussies and migrants bring with them is not valued in the Australian workplace anywhere near as much as someone at the same position who stayed comfortable in their same job, working at the same firm, while their mate took a risk and went to London in the same job and working for the same firm.

“Hmmmm, very nice, but what exactly did you do ?” is usually the interview panel question.

Sharon says:

01:29pm | 10/02/12

What a wonderful world that would be. I have a dream .....

And before I get bombarded with the “what would we do with all the animals”  defensive question ..... it’s all about supply and demand as with any commercial product, which is exactly what animal agriculture is producing through deliberate and planned breeding according to demand.

Sharon says:

03:47pm | 10/02/12

You clearly are a critical thinker with a conscience Poohbar.

It is wonderful to read about people like you you think more deeply about the impact their choices have on other sentient creatures, and the environment. 

I agree it is not just the “less educated” who take jobs in abattoirs, as there are plenty of “more educated” people out there who have no problem with killing animals, and I guess they are not the hypocrites that most are who shun even the thought of visiting an abattoir.

kris says:

01:48pm | 10/02/12

Um, why are we comparing child labour to farmed animals suddenly?  Relevance??  I’d probably choose the bolt too, but
a) if you saw the footage it’s not as easy as that, and
b) why are those the choices??  Are you saying that animals in slaughterhouses have it better than kids in labour so everything must be fine in slaughterhouses?
Seriously, huh??

Kris says:

01:52pm | 10/02/12

This was addressed briefly:
“It may be the type of job that attracts people who are more likely to be cruel… they might get away with it in that environment. ”

chopper knows says:

02:05pm | 10/02/12

What about the millions of starving peasants in North Korea that eat the occassional dog due to no food. Are they souless and murderious individuals who are going to Hell too?

TC says:

02:08pm | 10/02/12

Wow, tell us what you really think Animal Lover.

Obviously you are a vegetarian now, but have you ever eaten meat? If you have then you’ve participated or contributed to the killing of a “poor tortured animal” as you put it. It would seem a tad hypocritical to have such strong negative opinions on something that you have participated in during your life.

Fezzbo says:

02:56pm | 10/02/12

Actually, “Karma” and “Hell” are from 2 completely different religious tenets… So if 1 is real then the other is moot…

Also, ever stepped on an Ant? Smacked a Mozzie?

Unless you grow your own veggies in the back yard, odds are you’ve been attached to “murdering” one or 2 of natures little wonders…

Twit.

Kika says:

04:31pm | 10/02/12

Fezzbo - Great arguments. Never heard them before.

I completely understand where they are coming from. I agree with them. But I also understand why people eat meat. I used to eat meat. It’s quick and easy and it’s uncomplicated protein. But I changed my heart when I realised where meat comes from these days.

I would argue that karma and hell are not entirely different. Jesus preached do unto others which is not unlike karma. Buddhists and Hindus have an element of a hell. Most likely those who continue to eat and ignore the reality and truth of it all will get reincarnated as a factory farmed pig.

Kris says:

06:00pm | 10/02/12

So, because Animal Lover hasn’t lived a perfect life, s/he is a hypocrite?  You’re somehow better - because you don’t pretend to try - than a person who genuinely tries but has, in the past, been the cause of some things which s/he is now against, or because today s/he might have unknowingly stepped on an ant??

“People look at me as a vegan and conclude that since I stepped on a snail or because the vegetables I eat resulted in a tractor death for a squirrel somewhere in Paraguay that somehow vegans are hypocrites, which of course they’re not since, perfection is an unattainable goal and is something to be driven towards, never actually achieved.
The difference between you and the vegan standing next to you is that while you’re both going to step on a bug tomorrow, they’ve decided to dedicate their lives to do as little harm as possible, completely independent from what you do…And falling 1% short of an unattainable goal is really good when you’re standing next to someone who won’t even try.”
~ Shelley Williams, Oppress This.

Andrew says:

11:23pm | 10/02/12

So you believe in hell for but you dont believe in eating meat, prietty sure god doesnt tell you to be a vegetarian or tell you eating meat is wrong, in fact there are many passages that mention people eating meat and no where does it say its evil. There are passage were jesus ate lamb and fish and he fed the mob with fishes, so are u saying that jesus is now in hell.

Kate says:

10:10pm | 11/02/12

My dad worked in one between uni and getting a teaching job. He’s a great guy. He’s also an atheist so your little ‘ooh, you’re going to hell’ threat doesn’t really apply.

Go vego if you want, but holier-than-thou whining won’t change the fact that meat is delicious.

TC says:

09:27am | 13/02/12

@Kris,

Ummm you might want to re-read Animal Lovers comment. He/she can hardly be a candidate for humanitarian of the year. S/he has insulted everyone but God himself. How do you think humans survived for thousands of years? On carrots and lettuce leaf? You, I and precious little Animal Lover would not even be here today if it wasnt for our ancestors eating meat. Protein from meat was how our brains developed and grew the reason we became the dominant species on this earth. I don’t think I’m better than anyone else BTW, but I’m not going to sit here while that goose Animal Lover sits on her/his high horse claiming anyone who works in an abattoir is a redneck, desperate, heartless, psychopathic, murderous, callous & soulless person. Clearly a comment in the running for the ‘dickhead of the week’ award on the punch.

I’m not preduce towards vegans, just morons like Animal Lover.

St. Michael says:

02:12pm | 10/02/12

But I do love animals.  Particularly with a side of chips and salad.

Pork Chop Lover says:

02:28pm | 10/02/12

Get off your high horse Kaz. You lot will never stop me enjoying meat. In fact I’m tucking in to a huge f-off lamb roast tonight, can’t wait. Enjoy your lame lentil burgers, whatever that crap is.

Sharon. S says:

04:34pm | 10/02/12

Grow up St Michael, and Pork chop. Eat meat if you must, but please have a grown up think! The topic is regarding the video of unspeakable acts of cruelty, institutionalised cruelty being inflicted on innocent,helpless animals. Is it not enough that they give their lives for your taste buds? Must they be tortured to death also for your extravagance and indulgence? I reiterate, the subject is inhumane acts of cruelty, cruelty so bad that the place was closed - the second one in less than 6 months! Nothing excuses the behaviour, which along with being sick and hideous, is against the law! So focus please. If you choose to eat meat, you should be advoctaing for the animals to be killed as humanely as possible. A way to ensure this is CCTV , installed and monitored on a regular basis in all abattoirs. And to those bagging non meat eaters…Why the fear? Does our existence, our health, make you feel bad? Bad, knowing that your arguments re consuming meat for any other reason than taste are vaccuos? Hmmm, and as to the ignorant comments re hippy vegans… First there is nothing wrong with being a hippy, in fact I find most of those folk peaceful and harmless. Certainly not involved in violence or alcohol fueled mayhem in our city streets. (Can red necked meat eaters say the same, hmm) Further, many of us non meat eaters are living around you…try and spot me in my workplace…I doubt you will…and every day more and more people are seeing the truth - eating meat is unnecesary, and you can live a happy , healthy life without harming others…so why wouldn’t you?

St. Michael says:

05:43pm | 10/02/12

Your spelling’s a bit lamb, Sharon S.  Try chicken out a dictionary beefor posting, though I find it completely acceptable that you don’t give a pork.

Wynston Cruso says:

05:54pm | 10/02/12

Your comment makes me want to go out of my way to eat a baby version of something.

Jason Todd says:

08:28pm | 10/02/12

Sharon - It’s not fear of vegetarians that causes the bagging. It is the sanctimonious ranting that they have the moral high ground, and are supposedly a more evolved and sophisticated creature because they have made the decision to not eat meat.  You are guilty of doing exactly that.

Do I care what you eat? Not particularly. I don’t lecture my friends and family on the benefits of what I choose to eat and why I choose to eat it. I made my decisions based on my own thinking, they should have the right to do the same. No amount of hyperbolic hand-wringing is going to change that.

You are a vegetarian. Great. If you can eat that way and be healthy, fantastic. I know a bunch of vegans that would call you an animal enslaving redneck for daring to not adhere to a vegan diet.

Humans, like other primates, are clearly capable of subsisting on an omnivorous diet. If you want to eat all veg, fine. If you want to eat a bunch of meat with your veg, fine also.

Your assertion that meat consumption can be linked to alcoholism and violence is rediculous. You show me one study that links the consumption of meat to those two characteristics.

In conclusion, you’d serve your cause much better if you just lived as a happy and healthy vegetarian, rather than getting up into the pulpit and bashing out the “Cows are people too” line until you are blue in the face.

Fezzbo says:

05:04pm | 13/02/12

@ Kaz

Ever win any of those marathons? You would have done better had you eaten meat

Kris says:

03:48pm | 10/02/12

Irrelevant when it’s non-compliant with current legislation under the Animal Welfare and food safety Acts.

Rudyard Kipling says:

02:30pm | 10/02/12

So all Muslims are Halal meat workers, how divinely colonial.

Zeta says:

02:40pm | 10/02/12

Actually, you don’t have to be Muslim to slaughter Halal. The Koran says any of the ‘people of the book’ are eligible. Except Paulinians. Something about non-Trinitarians really rubbed Mohammed the wrong way.

Kika says:

04:10pm | 10/02/12

Yep - I agree with Zeta. We evolved to eat meat very occasionally, and when the opportunity came up… rarely!  We evolved our bipedalism and large frontal lobes for scrounging around looking for fresh kills for SURVIVAL. They didn’t do it for taste. Savannah. Not a lot of apples and carrots lying around. We don’t live in the Savannah anymore.

Our teeth, yes, we have some canines. But only small ones. Look at a cat’s canines. THEY are for shredding meat from bones. We don’t have those. Our teeth are designed for grinding plant fibre. And our guts and bowels are long - all designed for high fibre diets. Pure carnivores like cats have stomachs high in acid to digest raw meat. We don’t. We have to cook ours. Like I said earlier, Japanese food is known for raw meat however they also have high rates of stomach cancer. And bowel cancer? Yeah diets high in red meat increase this risk. Don’t believe me? Then why is it when you have a colonoscopy you are banned from eating red meat for a long time? Because doctors know red meat sticks to the walls of the colon. You NEED plant fibre to scrape it through.

You wonder why we have such high rates of obesity, high cholesterol and high blood pressure seeing how much meat we eat these days.

If you still don’t believe us, ASK YOUR DOCTOR.

Jason Todd says:

08:36pm | 10/02/12

Kika,
Funny you should mention the doctor aspect. Just as a personal anecdote, I had a long running rivalry with one of my friends, myself as an omnivore, her as a committed vegetarian considering veganism. I made the argument that provided a healthy and balanced diet is followed, your health is really no better if you are a vegetarian or an omnivore. She insisted that as a vegetarian, she was automatically healthier than me because the small amount of meat that I do eat would certainly poison me.

Anyway, some time later we both fell ill, both serious (but separate) conditions that required a fair bit of diagnosing. As a part of the process, we both had full blood panels done, and were able to compare the numbers. I trounced her, all vital indicators came back well in the healthy area for me, not so much for her. My cholesterol was less than a third of hers, my blood pressure was fine, while hers was seriously elevated.

Moral of the story kids - Vegetarianism, Veganism, Fruitarianism, Raw food-ism or any other dietary choice is not a golden bullet to health. Balance is the key. You can live a healthy life under all codes, provided you draw some boundaries and put some effort in.

Magpieboy says:

10:12pm | 10/02/12

Hey Jason are you any relation to the Robin that was murdered by The Joker.

Jason Todd says:

05:44am | 11/02/12

Superboy Prime punched on reality yo. I’ve been back for ages.

Sharon says:

04:03pm | 10/02/12

Caring about all animals, human and non, is not mutually exclusive. I care about support campaigns to stop human asylum seeker detention, and the myriad other campaigns against oppression and poverty.

We here in the wealthy western world have a real choice when it comes to how we treat the animals at our mercy.

We CAN CHOOSE to do less harm, if we really care and want to .... it’s really quite easy if you try.

Yip says:

04:25pm | 10/02/12

Well, the fact of the matter is as humans we have choices. Animals don’t. They have no choice but to live or die according to what we want. Also, just because people care about animals, it doesn’t mean they don’t care about other people. If they have empathy for animals, don’t you think it’s MORE likely they’ll care for humans too? Duh?

Kris says:

09:56pm | 10/02/12

Hey guess what?  I can care about people *while* I eat a vegetable.  I can donate to World Vision *while* I feel appalled by footage of animal torture.  I can even drink a soy milk latte *while* I attend an organisation where I volunteer to help children with disabilities.  You’re not even going to believe this one, wait for it.  Are you sitting down?  I can stuff my face with a delicious fresh fruit salad with dairy-free ice cream *AT THE SAME TIME* as writing letters to members of Parliament lobbying for better treatment of people in Australia’s detention centres!!  That’s the really cool thing about caring - you don’t have to limit yourself to just one thing.  I care about all sorts of stuff, all at the same time.  It’s also a really cool thing about using your power as a consumer by choosing not to use animal products - you can do that at the same time as participating in activism or advocacy for some other, totally non-animal related subject!!

If only you could care about animals too, instead of putting all your energy into the people in detention centres.

MarkF says:

03:11pm | 10/02/12

Haha was going to make a comment on how come my first comment didn’t make it through.  Wondered if it was me pointing out that Tory’s bio shows she had never got her hands dirty doing any real work or was it asking for a balanced viewpoint on meat workers as normal people supporting themselves and their families.  You said it better than I ever could.

MarkF says:

02:51pm | 10/02/12

Yeah well I sort of doubt that.  I have seen poly pipe used years ago which only stings but make a loud noise when it hits and that practice was stopped years ago.  If you hit a pig with a metal pole you bruise the meat and can’t sell it.  Also if you stress a pig out their flesh goes very pale which also makes it hard to sell the pork.  The name of the game is selling the meat that you kill.  Can’t say it doesn’t happen but it would be the rarity not the norm.

Quailie says:

04:35pm | 10/02/12

Why do you doubt it? I know someone who worked in an abattoir briefly, and in that time he saw sheep getting kicked, punched and beaten on a regular basis. One guy even gouged out a lambs eyes while it was still alive so he could take photos of it. I’ve heard of people throwing live chickens against walls and deliberately snapping their legs. I don’t think it’s wrong to eat meat, but this sort of behavior should never be excused or tolerated.

Kris says:

04:48pm | 10/02/12

Doesn’t bruise the meat when you hit them in the head.

MarkF says:

09:09am | 11/02/12

Love it.  I heard it from a friend who heard it from someone else who I’m sure actually saw it that this really really happened.  When you’ve worked in the industry and know it for a fact and not just hearsay by all means make a comment. 

Kris have you ever been in a meat works.  Even the meat from the head is stripped off and used.  Nothing goes to waste.

Get Real says:

02:06pm | 11/02/12

MarkF, there would be no reason for him to lie; in fact he was quite proud of it. He would often refer to pigs as the dumbest creatures on this planet and they needed to be beaten to get them moving. You would be a fool to think things like these were rare because when no one’s looking these things happen every day. It’s only once in awhile when undercover investigations take place that the consumer has any real glimpse into the meat industry, because cruelty is the norm, that is why abattoirs and factory farms are against installing CCTV….

Kris says:

05:32pm | 11/02/12

Dude.  It was funny.
Besides, the heat meat isn’t used in the same way as the larger musculature of the animal so it is still sold briused.  You can’t really tell if the meat is bruised in a sausage or a frankfurter or pet food.
But if I must be serious, I’ve seen quite a bit of smacking animals around the body with both poly-pipe (this is still pretty common) as well as steel bars, electric prods etc.  I have seen (yes, first hand) the kicking, the tail-breaking and the eye-gouging.
As far as pigs’ meat going pale if they’re ‘stressed out’, well there must be some pretty pale pork out there, because I don’t think I’ve ever seen a pig being forcibly moved without it stressing out.

SimonFromLakemba says:

02:49pm | 10/02/12

Why don’t you tell us? You seem fairly sure.

Zeta says:

03:00pm | 10/02/12

I’ve seen halal butchers at work with my own eyes. It’s not particularly pleasant, but it’s at least respectful, and it makes no pretense of being anything other than the killing of an animal for food - unlike our slaughterhouses, which turn food production into factory lines.

I don’t think it’s foolish to have objection to anything being killed on a factory line. I think that’s common decency that transcends people’s blinkered objections to tenants of faith.

Mermaid says:

03:02pm | 10/02/12

Ever cut yourself simon?? Then maybe realise what an animal feels when its throat is cut while it is still alive and then allowed to bleed to death. Not a really pleasant way to die. But,, buddy that’s halal butchery for you.

Fezzbo says:

03:14pm | 10/02/12

Zeta, Tenets of Faith… Sorry to nitpick…

mermaid says:

03:19pm | 10/02/12

do you really hear yourself zeta…  what OTHER REASON is there for abattoirs than for turning animals into food.. whether on a production line or not… same as halal murder….  ..I really wonder about the human race at times.. and puhleessee .. don’t try and bring faith and/or religion into this..
death is death.. human, animal or vegetable…  life ends.. and other species survive.

Kika says:

03:32pm | 10/02/12

Mermaid, they half stun them these days. The bolt doesn’t go all the way in. They are stunned first before they are slaughtered.

Did the old Arabs and Hebrews have cows in the desert? No. They mostly had sheep and goats. Is it easier to use a long sharp knife to slaughter a small animal? Cows? Not so practical.

Nobody is saying halal is perfect. But I feel comfortable in knowing that the animal had a reason for dying and was thanked for giving us their life instead of just being butchered up after living a poor horrible life anyway. The death part is often the best part of these poor animals lives.

FYI says:

03:52pm | 10/02/12

@Zeta - Australia has many licensed Halal slaughter houses, they follow similar OH&S and animal welfare and handling guidelines, so they look exactly the same as Aussie factory slaughter houses.  They have to stun before the bleed.  If you eat Halal meat here, this is where you are getting your meat from and not from the holiday tourist Halal visit butcher shop.  Meat is dead animals and I have no objection, but trying to justify your meat eating as superior is a desperate.  It only shows that you are so far up yourself, you can see out of your mouth.  .

Kris says:

05:05pm | 10/02/12

I’m vegan, but if a critter is going to die to feed somebody, in my opinion true, honest halal slaughter is one of the most respectful ways of doing it.  The slaughter men understand the sacrifice the animal is making (sacrifice in this context not being equal to being willing), they make sure that no other animal sees the slaughter, the knife is sharp and not sharpened in front of the animal and it’s important that the animal lived a healthy and happy life up to the point of slaughter, meaning that we can be assured that the animal was given proper care and managed in a way that wasn’t unpleasant to it. 
The downside to it all is that Halal slaughter was designed in times of families who had a goat or two and were self-sufficient.  I believe Halal is such an incredibly respectful method, full of compassion and consideration for the animal’s well-being when done by a true believer in the manner in which the doctrines dictate.  (Having said that, in my perfect world there would e no slaughter at all.)
Today, we see abattoirs attempting to perform Halal slaughter in production-line facilities.  The nature of the modern slaughterhouse means that animals are stressed.  Unlike times of old, these animals aren’t regularly handled before slaughter so are frightened of the humans around them.  They have often been transported long distances to get to the facility.  A myriad of things occur in large-scale production lines that simply don’t work with Halal doctrines.  Halal was never designed to be large-scale and, in my opinion, you would be hard-pressed in developed or developing countries to find TRULY Halal meat.  Stunning before Halal slaughter is the only positive effect that mass-production has had on the process, and I personally don’t think it makes up for the negatives.

Sharon says:

04:50pm | 10/02/12

I love it how people like you use desperately defensive ridiculous rants generalisations,and assumptions. Of course I know (as do all the other vegans and vegetarians I know) that being vegan doesn’t constitute “no harm”, but it certainly does a hell of a lot less. It’s about choosing to do less harm and encouraging a more compassionate society. We in the wealthy western world do have a real options when it comes to the level of harm we want to do with our lifestyle choices.

The only people who find fault in that are those who don’t care.

Kris says:

07:57pm | 10/02/12

This is a cut and paste of a post I made above; it seems to be relevant more than once.
So, because a vegan hasn’t lived a perfect life, s/he is a hypocrite?  You’re somehow better - because you don’t pretend to try - than a person who genuinely tries but has, in the past, been the cause of some things which s/he is now against, or because today s/he might have unknowingly stepped on an ant??

  “People look at me as a vegan and conclude that since I stepped on a snail or because the vegetables I eat resulted in a tractor death for a squirrel somewhere in Paraguay that somehow vegans are hypocrites, which of course they’re not, since perfection is an unattainable goal and is something to be driven towards, never actually achieved.
  The difference between you and the vegan standing next to you is that while you’re both going to step on a bug tomorrow, they’ve decided to dedicate their lives to do as little harm as possible, completely independent from what you do…And falling 1% short of an unattainable goal is really good when you’re standing next to someone who won’t even try.”
  ~ Shelley Williams, Oppress This.

Zeta says:

03:22pm | 10/02/12

You forgot Ninja.

St. Michael says:

03:52pm | 10/02/12

No he didn’t, the ninja’s invisible.

Wynston Cruso says:

06:01pm | 10/02/12

You also forgot Pirates, and space Nazis.

Kika says:

03:14pm | 10/02/12

You don’t have to have a steak… you know that right?

denise says:

03:34pm | 10/02/12

@kika.No I don’t have to have a steak…and I don’t actually but there seems to be a ready market for it somewhere.

Sharon says:

10:58pm | 10/02/12

@denise .... so sad that money overrules the “unpleasant things”.

I’m sure there are plenty of far more humane jobs out there.

As you highlight, it is all about the choices we make.

Kris says:

05:37pm | 11/02/12

@ Sharon, I’m not sure that’s fair.  It sounds to me like Denise has had a financial struggle and job opportunities which aren’t part time and offer financial security are few and far between.
I think it’s sad that people can be in a situation where they feel they *have* to be a part of unpleasant things in order to support their family.

Fezzbo says:

03:39pm | 10/02/12

Why exactly do I need to research what I’m eating? You’ve done it all for me. And by the sound of it, I’m better off eating well cared for, socially accepted, happy creatures…

Care to jump into my oven Kika? I know it’s a bit warm but there’s a nice veggie fritata at the back….

Now where’s 1943 Chianti… MWAAAHAHAAAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!!!

Rogey Boy says:

03:51pm | 10/02/12

Nice try Kika but they really don’t. The more assholish, the more they love the conservative side of things too. The animals are more worthy of life than these scum.

BJ says:

10:18pm | 10/02/12

Why are we picking on meatworkers? What they do is far more humane than castrating animals.

Zeta says:

03:40pm | 10/02/12

I heard recently that more fish get killed in Sydney’s desalination plant than are actually taken by fisherman each year around Sydney harbour.

They get sucked up and minced and then their guts get processed out along with the salt.

Yum.

Kris says:

04:31pm | 10/02/12

Lol, what do you think the ‘meat’ is fed?  That’d be wheat, rice, soya, corn.  It takes up to 16 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of meat, and you’re having a go at the vegans whose MUCH less grain to feed themselves directly than what your single steak used to become a steak?

Food Scientist says:

10:02pm | 10/02/12

@Kika,

Wrong (again). Cattle are fed on damaged or surplus grain that is not suitable for human consumption.
In Australia cattle are grass fed except for a short period of lot feeding before slaughter.

Kris says:

05:22pm | 11/02/12

@ “food Scientist”:  I think you mean Kris.  And I’m not wrong; feedlotted cattle take 16lb grain, etc to make a pound of meat.  Firstly, nowhere did I say that the 16lbs they eat to get that 1lb is human-grade grain (more on this below).  Secondly, irrespective of whether it’s damaged or surplus or otherwise not fit for human consumption, it still gets grown the same way, gets the same pesticides sprayed on it and is harvested the same way, so I’m not sure how you think feeding cows damaged grain detracts from my point.  Shall I clarify my point?  Vegans, eating 1lb of vegetation, do 16 times *less* damage to fieldmice and insects and the environment and whatever else you’re going to argue, than an omnivore eating 1lb of beef.  On top of this, the vegan hasn’t been complicit in killing the cow.  That is just a fact.  Why is it so difficult to accept that somebody choosing a vegan diet does less harm to living things?
In addition, I grew up on, and continue to live on the land.  I know what cattle eat, thanks.  They are feedlotted for quite some time in Australia before being sent to market (unless it’s been a really good year for paddock feed) because otherwise they have very little fat and therefore a reduced weight.
Your assertion that human-grade grain isn’t fed to cattle is almost right - it’s human-grade when it’s grown and when it’s harvested (usually; some years are bad growing years) but the way it is handled is different when it’s destined for cattle.  The grain isn’t unfit for human consumption until it’s handled, stored and carted differently than that which *is* destined for human consumption.
Regarding it being ‘surplus’ grain, that’s ridiculous.  I laughed a little.  Do you really think, in a multi-million dollar meat industry that they rely on surpluses?  Cattle just get the grain that the people didn’t buy?  Afraid not.  Grains are grown *for* the meat industry and bought by the meat industry to support the meat industry.  Hee hee, ‘surplus’.

Sharon says:

07:26pm | 15/02/12

@FoodScientist: 

Your research isn’t very scientific.

Check out ABARE stats and SoE data on the amount of land used for animal agriculture.

One eyebrow raising stat for you .... 66% of the total grain produced in Australia in 2007 was fed to livestock!

Kika says:

04:22pm | 10/02/12

Why is a logical argument presented by someone who happens to be a vegan a ‘rant’?  So I suppose someone who argues for a political ideology contrary to yours is also ‘ranting’.

” do believe that animals bred for humans to eat should, however, be killed in the quickest possible manner”

Often the problem is the death part is the best part of these animals lives. The suffering they have to endure whilst alive is the point. The suffering affects the meat. The quality of life affects the meat. The cleanliness of the conditions the animal lives in affects the meat. Don’t you care for your meat?

If you did care about your meat then you would demand your meat is certified free range so at least you can also be satisfied that not only the animal had a quick end, but also lived a good life at the same time.

There’s no point worrying about a quick end if they lived in sht, was stressed and anxious all the time (cortosone affects meat quality) and was pumped up with vitamins and antibiotics for no good reason their whole life just to ensure they didn’t die.

MarkF says:

05:25pm | 10/02/12

Kika a lot of what vegan’s say is not logical argument but emotive rubbish so to me that makes it a rant.  Anyone working at the meat works I work at who handles cattle must do a livestock handling course.  Cattle must be allowed to move at their own pace, you are not allowed to yell at them, hit them or stress them in any other way.  If you do you face disciplinary action or dismissal.  We don’t have whips or jiggers.  Any hold up and the cattle have to be moved back to the paddock etc etc etc.  All as stress free as possible.  Any stress produces dark cutters which you try to minimize. 

As far as living a good a life as possible WTF.  These animals are bred for food, not any pampered little pets.  Farmers and meatworks do not go out of their way to be cruel.  Nor do they tie little bows on the cute little moo cows tails to make them look pretty.  It is a business and run as such, as efficiently and humanely as possible.  Cruelty does not make any money.

Sharon says:

05:41pm | 10/02/12

Some human brains are wired dominantly toward compassion, critical thinking and empathy for all sentient creatures .... others are not.
The human spirit is not dead.  It lives on in secret…. It has come to believe that compassion, in which all ethics must take root, can only attain its full breadth and depth if it embraces all living creatures and does not limit itself to mankind.  ~Albert Schweitzer, Nobel Peace Prize address, “The Problem of Peace in the World Today”

MarkF says:

08:00pm | 10/02/12

A 15 year out of date book based on American meat works, American culture and American laws, from a mob who by their name is just another animal liberation type organization.  Care to tell me how that applies to Australia and what happens in this country.  Go work in a meat works and see first hand instead of relying on propaganda from animal activists.

Sharon T says:

10:35pm | 10/02/12

Funny how the undercover investigations continue to expose this extreme brutality .... in many countries including the USA, Indonesia, Egypt and Australia.  CCTV should be in all slaughterhouses and factory farms and random unannounced inspections by independent authorities (not Primary Industries Departments that are controlled by the animal ag industries and policitcal influence), should be more frequent. Oh, and if we want our children to have a truly transparent and honest education from paddock/factory shed to plate, online real-time viewing should be accessible for schools and the general public.

Any takers? If not, why not? What is there to hide?

BJ says:

06:47am | 11/02/12

Most meatworks are full of cctv.

MarkF says:

08:14am | 11/02/12

Sharon T the meat works that I work at has over 60 cameras monitoring the whole plant so as usual another invalid comment from the greeny/animal libber/ vege brigade.

Sharon T says:

10:45am | 11/02/12

@MarkF:  is real-time viewing available online to all? Can you please give me the web link and name of the abattoir so I can check it out myself and pass the link on to our school and others.

You make it appear as if your abattoir is some kind of Disneyland for animals! You must love your work.

At least you are not a hypocrite like many who couldn’t even watch animals being slaughtered let alone do the job, but prefer to consume in deliberate blissful ignorance.

Whilst this extreme barbaric abuse may not be occuring in high rates across all abattoirs around the world, from what I have seen myself and researched, and the continual exposure following under-cover investigations, it is certainly not rare. Routine inspections done a few times a year (or less) by the “authorities” will never expose this kind of systemic cruelty as it is usually the norm for inspections by authorities to be announced in advance, and even if not, the inspectors have to identify themselves before they enter the abattoir or factory farm shed, so of course word is going to quickly spread from manager down the line. That is why it is only ever exposed via under-cover investigations. The govt and meat industry really don’t want anyone to see what really goes on. I wonder how many politicians have done tours of abattoirs?

Even in abattoirs where it is claimed that this kind of extremely cruel barbaric abuse is not occurring, the employees doing these jobs would have to be desensitised to the animal as a sentient being - how else could they do it, let alone get any satisfaction or enjoyment from their work?

BJ says:

05:23pm | 11/02/12

@Sharon
Name any company that allows footage of their production line to be available to competitors.

Kris says:

05:45pm | 11/02/12

MarkF - That’s awesome! 
Whilst the abattoir you work at is obviously not the norm in having CCTV (otherwise nobody would be pushing for it), I think it’s fantastic that there are meatwork Managers out there willing to have clear oversight of what’s happening on the floor.  I’m very impressed - it demonstrated a clear understanding that, no matter what they think of cruelty and hygiene, they know that these are the things that can get an abattoir closed down.  They’re willing to do what they can, *without* waiting until legislation forces them, to ensure that their business is running to an acceptable standard.  Kudos to them!

BJ says:

06:27am | 13/02/12

@Kris

Cameras everywhere is the norm in the modern meat industry. This is because of all of the legislation that they are governed by.

MarkF says:

08:11pm | 10/02/12

What a load of tripe.

1 license I hold is an animal control license which allows me to paintball them for marking, use a tranquilizer gun or put them down with a rifle.  On separate occasions I had to put down some pensioners pets.  1 cat had been in a fight and had its lip ripped off and its tongue half pulled out.  Couldn’t eat or drink.  One old fellow’s dog had had a stroke at a guess (really old dog) and was just lying on its side windmilling its legs trying to run but not able to do anything else.  They called me and asked me to put them down which I did.  Did I enjoy it.  No.  It was a job that had to be done so I did it quickly and humanely.  Why didn’t I take them to the vet?  I don’t have the spare money to get other peoples animals put down and as pensioners they didn’t either.  Why didn’t I take them to the RSPCA.  Because all they care about it money nowadays.  If you don’t have money they don’t want to know you.  Am I a mindless automaton or a sadist or a violent criminal.  No I am a Security guard with a family looking after morons like you who don’t live in the real world.  Grow up.

Kris says:

05:58pm | 11/02/12

The facts:

- Australian pigs and chickens (and other poultry) are raised in factory farms.  Australian sheep and cattle are often feedlotted for a time before slaughter ut not factory farmed.

- Feedlots use grain destined for feedlots, therefore by the time it arrives at said feedlot it is no longer fit for human consumption.

-  Some (yes, some) abattoirs are like hospitals; clean, quiet and clinical.  Others are a little like the one we saw footage of and was subsequently shut down.  Some are worse.  Denying that these exist is silly; we see footage taken in secret relatively often.  It must be happening.

-  The fact that no vegan hunter-gatherer tribe has been discovered makes absolutely no difference to the fact that humans can be perfectly healthy vegans and some of us *want* to be.

- I am neither a chimp, nor an orang-utan.  Chimps and orang-utans hunt meat, but this is irrelevant to whether *I* want to eat meat.  Also, there is really only a very small percentage of the population of this country who hunts their own meat consistently.  I don’t equate wandering up and down the cold section of the supermarket as stalking and catching prey.

Get Real says:

02:44pm | 13/02/12

Since when do hospitals have rats running through blood soaked floors? I wouldn’t consider that clean and I wouldn’t call abattoirs quiet when you hear the screams from animals coming out of them. And hospitals are there to save, abattoirs are there to slaughter and in some cases torture..

Kris says:

05:59pm | 11/02/12

**love this**  =D

HarmLess says:

08:04am | 11/02/12

@onlooker. Just where on Earth did you discover that plants are sentient creatures with the capacity to feel pain, fear and joy?

Sharon T says:

06:20pm | 11/02/12

@Bruce .... my post above was reply to yours.