World of Warcraft: the army’s best training ground

DG says:

09:25am | 10/07/12

I wouldn’t employ anyone over the age of 18 who admitted to playing computer games.  Then again I get called snob by my wife and friends as I only read non-fiction.

None of my friends are gamers, we are in variety of professions with families. Instead we prefer surfing and have done so for past 20yrs since our university days.

Elphaba says:

10:12am | 10/07/12

@DG, the median age of gamers is 30.  You’re severely narrowing your prospective pool there…

Besides, why should it come up in a job interview anyway?  Not once in a job interview have I been asked what my hobbies were.  Surely that doesn’t mean anything when it comes to a person’s suitability for employment.

M says:

10:40am | 10/07/12

You know DG, the guy who plays computer games may actually be the smartest candidate for the job.

hot tub political machine says:

10:58am | 10/07/12

That’s interesting to me you have never been asked about your hobbies Elph. It’s really a good way to get to know a lot more about the person. Sometimes I think we interview for personality more than anything, as you should only ever be interviewing applicants who hit all the criteria on their resume. One of my good friends jumps on every interview panel he can at work because he wants to do his best to make sure the people who get employed have a personality he can stand as well as being good at the job.

I just think that regardless of what a person’s hobbies are it can tell you heaps about the person. Especially if they are really passionate because you get to see them lit up rather than nervous, which is also helping you get a more complete picture of them.

Not having a go at gamers either here, as I completely understand the desire to do something interactive as oppossed to watching TV. Especially given how bloody awful the programming is when most people get home from work.

Ando says:

11:13am | 10/07/12

“I wouldn’t employ anyone over the age of 18 who admitted to playing computer games”. What other weird selection criteria do you have.
I probably play a couple of 2 or 3 hours a month. Would your cool friends talk to me?

Admiral Ackbar says:

11:15am | 10/07/12

Aside from the median age thing that Elph mentions, your potential pool is also narrowed further by not considering gamers because you also get rid of those with the best problem solving skills, spatial and situational awareness, hand eye coordination, and often leadership.

Elphaba says:

11:20am | 10/07/12

@HTPM, I just don’t think it’s relevant to being able to do a job.  When did work become about a personality contest and who is the most ‘likeable’?  That means nothing when they can’t do the job.

You know when the personality shit has been pulled on me?  In performance reviews.  I’ve gotten (and I am not joking) - “You’re too happy.”  As a negative.  That’s where hiring people based on personality goes.  It’s a slippery slope.

If they can do the job, it shouldn’t matter what they do in their downtime, so long as it’s not illegal, or brings the company into disrepute.  Assessing your hobbies in a job interview is a bullshit tactic, and I wouldn’t work for someone who thought it was important (in the negative).

amy says:

11:27am | 10/07/12

” wouldn’t employ anyone over the age of 18 who admitted to playing computer games”

my…how disconnected form relatiy you are

hot tub political machine says:

12:37pm | 10/07/12

I guess Elph, I look at interviews as a two way street. Both the applicant and the employer are sussing out whether they think they are suited to each other. Twice in my life I’ve decided half way through interviews in my life that if I got offered the position I was going to refuse it – based on what I’d learned about the employer during the interview. One of my heroes is a guy I met who went into an interview, saw that they had sent up the interview with a long panel of interviewers and given him a tiny little chair in the middle of the room with no desk or water. Said guy looked at the panel, introduced himself and asked “Can I check” (pointing at the set up) “Is this how you intend to conduct the interview?” One of the panellists responded in the positive. Said turned to the panellists and said “I’ve just realised I don’t want to work here. Thanks for you time” and left. Legend.

Interesting you getting criticised for being too happy. It wouldn’t have been a problem in any of my workplaces. At one job I was in for 5 years, we wore it as badge of honour that twice clients complained about hearing too much laughter in our office. You can guess why I stayed for 5 years.

It’s the personality suiting thing again. I agree its weird to criticise you for being too happy – but if that happened to me I would take it to mean the job wasn’t good enough for me, rather than the other way round. Seriously if that was said to me I’d spend my lunch break applying for a better job (always up, only sideways if you want to change vocation). Life’s too short to either work for an employer that doesn’t suit you – life is also too short to hire people you don’t want to work with when there are equally qualified applicants who are going to suit the place better.

James1 says:

12:46pm | 10/07/12

I wouldn’t employ anyone over the age of 18 who admits to surfing.  Then again I get called a snob by my wife and friends as I don’t like any hobby that involves hanging around unwashed smelly hippies.

None of my friends are surfers, we are in a variety of high paying professions with families. Instead we prefer to play video games and have done so for the past 20 years since our primary school days.

Do you see how silly you sound now, DG?

Cobbler says:

02:16pm | 10/07/12

I know exactly what you mean DG.  Between being a male model, wrestling dinosaurs and being Gina Reinhart’s accountant I just don’t have time for gamers either.

I actually look down at them, when I’m stepping into my Lambo (because it’s tuesday) I think to myself “If only those gamers had taken up surfing.  It’s a character building hobby”.  No-one that was ever a loser was a surfer afterall….....................

Elphaba says:

03:44pm | 10/07/12

@HTPM, I did post a reply to you, but another one has apparently disappeared.  I haven’t been ignoring you.

Punch mods, can you please fix this, or at the very least, if my posts have been moderated for some reason, send me an email to explain why?

Seriously, it’s hard to have a conversation when you don’t put the posts up.

hot tub political machine says:

06:25pm | 10/07/12

No worries Elph. I’m sure it was a good one but tragically I may never see it. :(

Chris L says:

02:45pm | 10/07/12

It works for Hindus and Budhists. You just need a bit of reincarnation in your belief system.

M says:

08:21am | 10/07/12

Maybe you just had a problem with game/life balance.

Keith Hammersmith says:

09:04am | 10/07/12

what M said,  it doesnt have to be your life,  its just a game man!

Greg says:

10:57am | 10/07/12

That’s the problem you can’t effectively play a game like wow casually.

The sooner you realise that you can never really finish the game the better but that’s how they suck you in you keep thinking you need one more piece of gear one more achievement. 

The game isn’t even that good when you think about it and compare it to other games available

“Also an ex wow player”

hot tub political machine says:

11:02am | 10/07/12

That’s the problem with al MMO’s. I will never play one….ever. SImply because if you have any time commitments away from the game in your offline life, you know like job/spouse/kids/pets/hobby….you just can’t compete with those unemployed folks or half-arsed uni students who are on there a good 17 hours a day.

MMO PVP and jobs are incopatible software

M says:

11:15am | 10/07/12

That’s the thing though, I never bothered with WOW because I can’t be arsed devoting the nesessary time to it. Yee have none to blame but yourselves.

Admiral Ackbar says:

11:22am | 10/07/12

Just because you had a problem doesn’t mean others can’t enjoy it responsibly. You can play it casually, to say otherwise means you were probably trying too hard, and probably not very good at it. The best players I knew were those with very little time to play, such as 30-40 year olds with families and US Marines who played on Aussie servers due to the time region being closer to Oz than the US. To ever be so naive as to think you can finish it is just retarded.

Keith Hammersmith says:

11:56am | 10/07/12

what do you mean greg that you can Never play casually? I used to play a lot when my wife also enjoyed the game, when she drifted away I would rather spend time with her, I still like wow and play a couple of hours a week when time permits.  Blizzard have actually designed a large chunk of the game for casual players now as they know that that is a large slice of their market.

What you meant to say greg I presume is, “I” cant play casually, because many many millions do play casually.

Greg says:

02:10pm | 10/07/12

Keith if you play wow casually then that’s fine as long as you realise you will never ever be able to play the whole game sure you may eventually experience the game but you will never be truly playing the whole thing.

Playing casually is just plodding along you run the same 5 mans about a million time but you never really play the game.

You have to give it to Blizzard though they are extremely good at pandering to the masses and delivering just enough to keep the subscribers paying their 15 bucks a month.

Keith Hammersmith says:

02:56pm | 10/07/12

you havnt played in a while have you greg…
there are the 5 mans,  now there is LFR raid finder hooks you up with a 25 man raid pug, tuned in difficulty for pugs. there is the vast array of BG’s and arena.  I log on for an hour or so each week to meet up with a buddy and get our weekly cap or arena points. Sure im not dowing heroic 25 man bosses, but i dont think getting a heroic boss down is with 20 + hours a week more than just getting the normal version.

there are heaps of factions dailies etc,  plenty to keep casuals entertained,  really the only thing casual players arent “experiencing’ is heroic raid content. the entire rest of the game is opened up for casuals.
But the point I think your missing is its just a game, its for fun, if you dont have fun dont play, if you do have fun play, there is no right or wrong way to play, if I play 3 hours a week and enjoy it, then the game works for me, it also works for my friends that play 20 hours a week, perhaps that is why they still have a subscriber base of over 10 million paid each months.

Aaron says:

12:50pm | 10/07/12

“At the end of the day, you’re dealing with high-maintenance neckbeards that you’d never have anywhere near a battlefront.”
A lot of people I met in the Army actually Play Wow and some of those where people involved in combat jobs.

Nick says:

06:47pm | 10/07/12

omg you cleared kara? you must be really good

Anthony Sharwood says:

08:51am | 10/07/12

Sorry Ironside, but you are way, way off the mark about the paid advertising thing. We simply don’t do that here. That said, I allowed your comment, because you make some other good points

Keith Hammersmith says:

09:06am | 10/07/12

I doubt that wow (whos player base dwarfs the number in Australias armed services) really thinks of a punch article as an advertising method.

Ironside says:

09:28am | 10/07/12

@Anthony Sharwood, Thank you for posting, and for the latitude. I’m happy to be proven wrong, but I’ve seen people do paid advertising and I cant comprehend any other reason for comparing WOW to military service and then referencing an upcoming product relase for WOW.

Apolgies if i’m wrong but it looks dodgy to me.

dale says:

09:41am | 10/07/12

Ive dont the militairy service thing and i can say that there are more baby’s in the militairy then sitting around stormwind. i think you see the militairy as a piece of metal, cold hard steel…

In the modern militairy it is a job mostly 8-4 (for navy) unless you are at sea, not a career… they removed the 20yr pension… people in uniform are still people.

also there is a large number of ADF who play WoW

Ironside says:

11:04am | 10/07/12

@ Dale, actually i have done close to 20 years in first the regular army and then the reserves so i have a fair idea of whats required to be a soldier.

I dont doubt that many young soldiers play WOW, the military is a reflection of the society it serves and many young people play WOW, but I object to a direct comparison between the requirements of a fantasy online game like WOW and the requirements of military service.

It would be similar to me saying that because I can drive a car I should be able to be a Formula 1 race car driver, after all, my car has a steering wheel and four wheels and an engine, i’m pretty fit, and i can drive….thats just like being a race car driver right?

PsychoHyena says:

12:35pm | 10/07/12

@Ironside, perhaps you can explain the differences between leadership in a game of a platoon and leadership in the real world of a platoon.

Perhaps you could also explain why as a part of military strategy they actually train people using Starcraft, if the skills are of no use in the real world.

Many games involve the development of macro and micro management skills, identifying where the best place to position people is to achieve the best result.

A poor leader in both situations loses their team while a great leader gains more trust from their team.

Your comment sounds like that of someone who has put a lot of effort into developing skills one way who doesn’t appreciate that someone else found another way to develop those skills.

Given that you’ve served, one could say that as a soldier you’re the idiot because you could have developed those skills without putting your life or the life of others at risk.

I mean come on how disrespectful to our gamers to liken them to the military, a bunch of men and women who chose a career where they are allowed to perform large-scale murder when for anybody else it would be a crime.

To be fair I have a lot of respect for most of our troops, but those like you Ironside are just idiots.

hot tub political machine says:

01:00pm | 10/07/12

Ant you guys do have form on the advertorial’s so I will humbly challenge the idea you don’t do them. Though I’m prepared to accept the contributors don’t pay for it. It doesn’t mean you aren’t being used as advertising space. I mean heck the author of this piece is a PR.

Anyway evidence to assert my claim you guys do advertorials (appart from this article) are the following:

http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/was-siimon-the-original-gen-yer/

Anyway, I bloody dare ya to put this one up and tell me why I’m wrong

Ironside says:

02:33pm | 10/07/12

@ PsychoHyena, you’re a troll but I will indulge you. There is every difference between leadership in the military and leadership in a videogame, it all comes down to responsibility and the consequence of failure, if you fail in your leadership of a video game, you don’t get some cool loot, if you fail in the military there is a chance people will die.
Yes some of the basic concepts of organisation and motivation are similar to running a raiding guild (I actually ran a successful BF2 team for years using some of those skills) but to take my F1 Racing driver analogy above, they may be similar in theory but in application they are very different. I don’t have the time to take you through the years of leadership training that it takes to become an officer in the Australian Army much less the life time of dedication and training it takes to become a senior non commissioned officer, and since you seem to think that all the army is about is murdering people I doubt it would have any effect.
Also you state that as a part of military strategy “they” train people using Starcraf. Firstly, you seem to be woefully unaware of the difference between Tactical, Operation and Strategic command, starcraft would be tactical at best. Secondly who are “they”? In 20 years in the ADF I have used many computer simulation products all of which have been representations of real operations and units using real time frames and resource requirements, otherwise why bother training? I have never on any exercise, course or operation been given, or used Sartcarft or any other computer game as a training tool. Starcraft in particular would be a poor training tool as it is inherently inflexible. There is only a set number of maps and on each map there is a finite number of ways in which you can achieve victor. Sorry mate but the ability to set a Terran Defensive bunker line to hold of a Zerg rush has absolutely no practical application in modern warfare (or ancient warfare for that matter)
You can call me an idiot all you want mate but the fact is your argument is poorly constructed, your logic is flawed and you have no experience in actual military leadership from which to draw a basis of comparison. Go Troll somewhere else.

PsychoHyena says:

03:36pm | 10/07/12

@Ironside, the Australian Armed Forces used Starcraft.

So you are saying Ironside that any leadership skills I develop outside of the military are in fact flawed?

Ironside says:

05:14pm | 10/07/12

@ PsychoHyena no that’s not what I’m saying at all. There are many ways that you can gain leadership skills, but just as there are many types of professions there are many different types of leadership. I can lead men on military operations, but I couldn’t lead a team of surgeons doing heart surgery or a formula 1 team at Monaco either.

I have no doubt that people with an extensive history in playing computer games are very good at leading other gamers within the game to achieve the limited tasks that are on offer within the game. What I am saying is that those skills do not translate in any meaningful way to the military, and no the Australian Military does not use Starcraft as a leadership training tool. In fact other than the graphics computers of the Military Geographic Technicians I would doubt that there is actually a computer in the army that’s capable of even playing StrarCraft. You don’t need 500 dollar graphics cards to run most military software.

That said I’m willing to be proved wrong. Show me one link. One document. One anecdote that the Australian Army uses star craft as a leadership, tactics or strategy training tool and I will freely apologise on this site.

Cookookachoo says:

07:16pm | 10/07/12

Ironside, sounds like you need a sense of humor health check.  It’s obvious if you actually read this piece with your sense of humor switched to the ‘on’ position, that the author is poking fun at himself!

Your nasty jibe about using the term ‘author’ loosely says more about you and your inability to read the deliberate self-deprecation between the lines of this piece.

Perhaps you should think before you write in future.

Admiral Ackbar says:

11:25am | 10/07/12

I think it says more about the people than the game itself. Very likely they would have found some other vice to ruin their relationship if not WoW.

Coal Train says:

11:35am | 10/07/12

Paintball is a semi accurate simulation of getting shot. tactics and cohesion go out the window when the paint starts flying and the pain kicks in. I play in an amateur team and we have plan’s before a match but as soon as the round starts and one of us get’s tagged its every man for himself.

there are games however like ARMA II that are the most realistic simulations of real warfare you can get without actually going and joining the military.

The thing with WoW is that it sucks you in and you need to get that next level, or item it’s always a case of ‘just one more then i’ll go eat/to bed/hang with the family/love my kids/wife etc’ much like a drug addiction really…..

Elphaba says:

11:40am | 10/07/12

@Admiral, true, I think it does say something about the individual.  Their mind was ripe for the plucking because of their own personality faults…

amy says:

03:14pm | 10/07/12

@Coal Train

and then theres Day Z which is useful for the inevitable zombie apocalypse

Semi Concerned Citizen says:

10:45am | 10/07/12

Zeta, stop playing on wireless.
Also either you got key logged or your mates are pricks.

AdamC says:

07:22pm | 10/07/12

SCC, I think Zeta’s comment was really more about the analogy than his experience of Diablo 3.

St. Michael says:

11:56am | 10/07/12

Note that Orson Scott Card had very good advice from a military insider, as evidenced by the fact the generals in that story indicate that all the competent people had gotten out of, or never got to, high rank in the military and all the careerist, cardboard-cutout seatwarmers did.

M says:

10:39am | 10/07/12

“I wonder how many of the people who comment negatively to the article spend the evening watching TV for 3 or so hours every night.”

It bemuses me that passivly watching TV is a normal thing, but activly engaging in a challenging video game that requires you to think is shunned.

Says a lot about the intelligence of average australian me thinks.

Zeus says:

11:52am | 10/07/12

People laugh at you not because you’re playing a game, but because it’s a total time waste.
Why not fix something? build something? learn something? or work on your health?
Ask your wife what she’d prefer then

Chucky says:

11:59am | 10/07/12

From observing several decades of the human condition my thesis is as follows:

While when asked, humans will cheerfully admit that they are just an average person - secretly they ‘know’ that they are above average specimen.

Applying my thesis to this situation therefore results in people thinking:

I spend x hours a week doing {my leisure activity} and since I am above average only the finest examples of humanity are doing {leisure activity} making it a wise way to spend your time. You spend x hours doing {different leisure activity} so you are obviously below average - since if you were above average you would be spending your free time doing {my leisure activity}. This means that you are wasting your time/life. Given that I have now established that you are below average I can conclude that you are an irresponsible addictive personality type completely unable to regulate your own life. I support this with {anecdotal story I heard about your leisure activity from guy in pub/internet/A Current Affair}. Closing comment something about how the government really should regulate {your leisure activity} for the betterment of society, won’t someone think of the children.

amy says:

12:14pm | 10/07/12

I said it before and I’ll say it again

if you need to justify it to anyone your doing it wrong

M says:

12:32pm | 10/07/12

What an insightful comment chucky.

James1 says:

01:20pm | 10/07/12

Being healthy, I have no need to do anything more for my health.  Being reasonably well paid, I can pay people with less education to build and fix things for me.  My wife displays a very low level of interest in the things I do while she is sleeping.

I have spare time.  I like to play video games because I find them fun, whereas I hate fixing and building things because I find them boring and a waste of time, and like I say above, can afford to pay others to do such menial tasks for me.  What business is it of yours if my hobby happens to be something you don’t enjoy?  Why do you get to decide what is a waste of time?

You can go right ahead and do the things you enjoy, Zeus.  No one will accuse you of wasting time, assuming you are enjoying yourself.  After all, that is the point of having a hobby.  Why do you see the need to tell me what I should be doing when I have spare time?  What business is it of yours?

I have never understood this about the anti-gaming brigade.  Their only argument seems to be “I like doing other things, so you should to”.  Sorry, but this is perhaps the most retarded argument I have ever seen anywhere.  And I used to mark the papers of undergraduates, so I know a retarded argument when I see it.

Inky says:

06:32pm | 10/07/12

I’d just like to say lol, TOG

Was gonna scrim against them once in a game, but their team never showed up

amy says:

12:12pm | 10/07/12

if you feel the need to justify yourself to others your doing it wrong

Change Up! says:

12:46pm | 10/07/12

It’s not a justification, it’s an explanation. People from all walks of life enjoy computer games, each with their own way of playing and incorporating it into their life. The reason I gave the explanation is that as shown above, some people seem to think that “gamer” = basement-dweller.

I like to believe I’m a well-rounded person (although I do admittedly skew towards the geekier side of life), yet I am still to this day looked down on by family and aquaintences when I mention something “geeky”.  But I don’t care. I love it! I loved meeting Jonathan Frakes two months ago. I wear my Doctor Who/Inigo Montoya/River Tam t-shirts all the time. I just ordered the Game Of Thrones cookbook. I love this part of my life, so when people make comments about that part that are rude, I will defend it. Because when biggest movies of the year are sci-fi-comicbook-fantasy, we can’t all be basement dwellers.

PsychoHyena says:

03:32pm | 10/07/12

@amy if you have to use the same statement repeatedly YOU’RE doing it wrong.

Mary says:

02:16pm | 10/07/12

My Fiance’s playing it at the moment, he’s really getting into it. No good if you don’t like thinking, reading quest text etc, because the game does not spoon feed at all.
If I had the time, I’d play too… it’s a bit like a Portal MMO.

SWOTR has a decent story line, have you given that a go? I had a lot of fun leveling my Bounty Hunter!

Inky says:

03:23pm | 10/07/12

I play D&D Online. Lack luster visuals remain par for the course, but it has a lot more story and a lot less fetch quest. The grind is also less severe, I find.

Inky says:

03:33pm | 10/07/12

What if I play Dungeons and Dragons Online? Run through Delera’s Tomb as narrated by Gygax? Ruins of Threnal as narrated by Arneson? Real enough for you? :p

My tabletop D&D game died and we started an NWoD game instead.