World Cup Diary: French revolting, North Korea failing

msc says:

10:41am | 22/06/10

Le schadenfreude

Macon Paine says:

09:58am | 22/06/10

“BTW, North Korea isn’t actually ‘Stalinist.’They are a totalitarian military dictatorship built around the mythical figure of Kim Jong Il.”
They are a communist totalitarian military dictatorship built around the mythical figure of Kim Jong Il. There fixed that for you. No need to thank me.
“Unlike the USSR under Stalin, which at least nominally was communist,
North Korea is still communist Dan.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/kn.html
“North Korea no longer has any ideology, other than that it revolves around the military.”
Rubbish! You are so hopelessly naive! Care to source your claim?
“Kim is still seen as a god-like figure”
Yes sadly this is true. But this is really one result of living in a closed stalinist society.The man is certifiable.
“but it’s interesting to note that the constitution was recently changed to feature a ‘military first’ policy.”
Disengenious much? They also basically removed all references to communism and replaced them with “socialism”.

Anyway go Denmark!

Chris says:

11:03am | 22/06/10

Macon Paine — you are wrong. North Korea isn’t Stalinist — although it does have an ideology.

According to B. R. Myers (American associate professor of international studies at Dongseo University in Busan, South Korea) in The Cleanest Race: How North Koreans See Themselves and Why It Matters, the North Koreans have an race-based ideology. Essentially Myer’s argues that North Koreans ideologists claim that they are a pure race who, like children, need a strong leader to protect them from an evil and hostile world. 

Myers argues it actually comes close to fascism, although he has reservations about how useful the term ‘fascism’ is and prefers not to use it.  Listen to a discussion with Assoc Prof Myers here: http://colinmarshall.libsyn.com/on_the_north_korean_worldview_with_b_r_myers

Now, back to the soccer…

Macon Paine says:

03:44pm | 22/06/10

@ Chris

Thanks for that, it’s an interesting theory. B. R. Myers seems to have a valid point I also found his article here.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/02/22/north_koreas_race_problem.
I may be wrong and am happy to be corrected but I was under the impression that “Stalinist” and “red facism” which refer to the same thing are effectively interchangeable is this incorrect? Myers appears to be arguing against labelling them Stalinist and even communist whilst at the same time he provides evidence that they themselves believe they are communists!
Again I was under the impression that this is effectively what “red fascism” is, Communist and racist. Take this paragraph from his article for example:
“Even the Soviet Union, for all its decades of patronage, is remembered with more contempt than fondness. In Eternal Life, a 1997 historical novel, Nikita Khrushchev is called a “traitor,” one of the “fake communists” who betrayed world socialism. In the same book, Kim Il Sung chuckles about how he learned Soviet secrets by getting Leonid Brezhnev drunk. History books rarely mention the Soviet Union’s demise without sneering about how it went down “without firing a shot.”
So in this paragraph they throw even Nikita Khrushchev under the bus and label him a “fake communist”! Clearly they consider themselves to be communists and they consider other communists even of high standing as traitors and fakes.
In virtually every paragraph there is evidence provided of the North Koreans blatant racism and even anti-semitism, take these “The celebration of racial purity and homogeneity is everywhere in North Korea. ” and “North Korea has often been called “solipsistic,” but strong racial pride always entails intense awareness of an inferior other.” and “Although popular imagery strongly implies that all foreigners are morally inferior, and occasionally criticizes the Jews’ influence on world affairs, it subjects the Japanese and Americans to the worst routine vituperation.”
So you can see that B.R Meyers is providing evidence of both communism and racism aka “red fascism” aka “stalinist” but at the same time arguing against it! Im really not sure what to make of his article but it’s certainly an interesting point of view.

Dan says:

09:15am | 23/06/10

Thre you go again Paine. Talking about things that are over your head. They now have a ‘military first’ policy. That is their ideology. No need to thank me for showing you that you are wrong, as always.

“Rubbish! You are so hopelessly naive! Care to source your claim? ”

I’m naive? Right, whatever you say. Read their consititution. Although they still describe themselves as socialist, their ideology is actually ‘military first.’ Look at their spending. It all goes to the military. The military gets the best of everything. God, you’re naive and ignorant. 

“The man is certifiable.”

Actually he’s not. Yet another ignorant comment from you. He is actually saner (and cleverer) than many people realise. That is part of what makes him so dangerous.

“Disengenious much? “

How is it disengenious? It’s true.

Paine, you should pay me for all the time I spend educating you. That;s fine, you don’t need to thank me. We both know how ignorant and naive you are.

Chris says:

09:47am | 23/06/10

Macon — Myer’s argument is that they use Stalinist ideology as window dressing, but none of the leadership ever really had any interest in it. 

Myers essentially argues that Kim Il Sung wasn’t that bright, and didn’t really have any deep understanding of Stalinist or Leninist ideology (I’m taking liberties with Myers’ argument here for the sake of brevity, which is far more nuanced, although you get the picture) . His writings on the ideology are (and here I’m relying absolutely on Myers) highly circular and show a lack of any real understanding or interest. Concepts are simply repeated and returned to again and again, as if they make some kind of point.

If you behind the official writings — which,  according to Myers, nobody in the N Korean leadership really cares about — you find a racist ideology. Myers argues that the racist ideology is the one that is found in internal propaganda and for domestic consumption.

I think Stalinist = red fascism connection is understandable, but not a very accurate way to understand Stalinism. And, I suspect that it takes us farther away still from understanding N Korea.

Nevertheless, given their own self-descriptions of themselves as Stalinist to the outside world, it’s entirely understandable that people would assume that N Korea is a Stalinist regime.   

Weren’t we talking about football some time back…

Macon Paine says:

12:44pm | 23/06/10

@ Dan
“They now have a ‘military first’ policy. That is their ideology.”
So before that they where communists right? You cant just wipe away the results of decades of communism by changing your ideology, ask the east Germans or pretty much any country from the former eastern bloc. Anyway can you provide a source please? Come on back up your claims for once.
“Although they still describe themselves as socialist,”
Are you saying the people do not live under socialism/communism?Why would they do this if it’s not true? Is it because they realise there are certain people in the west who regard socialism (hence why they may have changed the references to communism in their constitution to socialism) as more palatable than say a military junta? And would these changes have anything to do with giving the impression to the outside world they are liberalising, when infact the opposite is true, so they can gain more international aid to pump into their military instead of taking care of the people?
“Actually he’s not.”
Defending a madman? He is batpoop crazy Dan, these guys certainly think so, please actually take the time to read it:
http://www.uccs.edu/~faculty/fcoolidg/pdfs/Kim Jong-il 2009 Behavioral Sciences of Terrorism.pdf
“He is actually saner (and cleverer) than many people realise. That is part of what makes him so dangerous.”
No he is not sane but he is very clever. His insanity is what makes him so dangerous.
“How is it disengenious?”
Already stated why.
“Paine, you should pay me for all the time I spend educating you.”
Please, about the only thing your capable of educating me on is how to speak lolcat. I can haz edumacation? How’s that?
@ Chris
Cheers, you make a legitimate argument unlike some galahs around here. Im going to read some more B.R Myers and more on North Korea in general as I find it a fascinating topic.

Dan says:

01:11pm | 23/06/10

” So before that they where communists right? You cant just wipe away the results of decades of communism by changing your ideology, ask the east Germans or pretty much any country from the former eastern bloc. “

China has done it successfully.

“Anyway can you provide a source please? Come on back up your claims for once.”

I have. I referred you to their constiution and their military spending.

” Are you saying the people do not live under socialism/communism?”

I’m saying that it is a militirised society with the military at the centre.

“Defending a madman?”

Yes, in your ignorant black + white world, if I disagree that he’s crazy, I must be defending him. You are such an ignorant child.

“He is batpoop crazy Dan,”

Uh, no he isn’t.

” these guys certainly think so, please actually take the time to read it:”

It didn’t work.

“No he is not sane but he is very clever. His insanity is what makes him so dangerous.”

Your ignorance is astounding.

“Please, about the only thing your capable of educating me on is how to speak lolcat. I can haz edumacation? How’s that?

Other than educating you on international politics, logic, democracy, religion and any other issue of significance, I can also educate you on English. It’s incredible how ignorant you are, yet you stubbornly refuse to accept my guidance. Ah well, your loss. Hopefully, when you grow up, you will stop being so stubborn.

Macon Paine says:

01:19pm | 24/06/10

@ Dan

“China has done it successfully.”
Firstly what is your definition of successfull? And this is key, do you know how they did it?

” I have. I referred you to their constiution and their military spending.”
Ahh their constitution this will be good. Lets see what their constitution says shall we?  http://asiamatters.blogspot.com/2009/10/north-korean-constitution-april-2009.html
Chapter I. Politics
Article 1. The DPRK is an independent socialist state representing the interests of all the Korean people.
Is it concievable to you that they could be a socialist state run by the military? Or to put it another way, the military gets the best of things and everyone else gets socialism, hence the poverty and inability to feed themselves problems they have? So article 1 (the very first statement) claims North Korea is an independant socialist (key word) state! And references to socialism are littered throughout that abomination, do yourself a favour and read it. As to their military spending I see they are spending about 20% GDP. This coincidentally backs up my claim that Kim Jong Il is insane. I dont need to tell most people that spending that much on your military while your people rely on international food aid is insane.

“I’m saying that it is a militirised society with the military at the centre.”
How does this prove the people no longer live under communism/socialism?

“Yes, in your ignorant black + white world, if I disagree that he’s crazy, I must be defending him.”
You only defend him out of ignorance. Read the evaluation and you will have no excuse to defend him. Come on Dan you can do it.

“You are such an ignorant child.”
Dan, if the link doesn’t work copy and paste it and enter it into google, it will take you to the pdf. Very simple really. Here is the link again:
http://www.uccs.edu/~faculty/fcoolidg/pdfs/Kim Jong-il 2009 Behavioral Sciences of Terrorism.pdf

“Uh, no he isn’t.”
Read the personality disorder evaluation. If you still think he isn’t, take it up with the authors.

“Your ignorance is astounding.”
Read the personality disorder evaluation. Otherwise you are choosing to remain ignorant.

“Other than educating you on international politics, logic, democracy, religion and any other issue of significance, I can also educate you on English. It’s incredible how ignorant you are, yet you stubbornly refuse to accept my guidance. Ah well, your loss. Hopefully, when you grow up, you will stop being so stubborn.”
Delusions of adequacy. You always retreat to this same uproariously amusing position when in trouble and your argument descends into “nah nah your wrong I know more than you, lolz pwned noob” territory. Your not on Xbox live anymore Dan.

Matthew says:

12:11pm | 22/06/10

What about the other 10 guys the Portuguese had to get through before him?

stephen says:

12:10pm | 22/06/10

Nice one NEFFA. I go to the pub and see on telly the 10 best soccer goals and it’s fun to watch.
The WCS is dull cause there’s too much at stake, i.e. a country’s credibility. A team should play like there’s no tomorrow. Instead, everythings risk-averse and too emphatic.

cyclops says:

12:55pm | 22/06/10

I think it’s a Latin thing, the more Latin you are the more preposterous the hairdo. The South Americans sport a smorgasbord of 70’s, 80’s and 90’s hairstyles. The Japanese and Sth Koreans also display an impressive array of follicular eccentricities. One of the Slovs (akia or enia) have a team member with middle-parted slicked-down hair that takes its inspiration direct from the 19th century. He would look perfectly plausible atop a penny-farthing. Another Slov player has a half-hearted Mohawk and one US player looks like Wolverine, but overall the hairstyles at this WC are a massive disappointment. A far cry from Beckham’s heyday.

McCoy Pauley says:

03:34pm | 22/06/10

Cheese-eating surrender monkeys is, I believe, the correct term to describe the French.

Jason says:

02:42pm | 22/06/10

Thank you, Colin. Easily the funniest thing I have read for weeks. Fantastic.