Workchoices architect needs some real life experience

Peter says:

09:59am | 25/02/10

Didn’t Rudd and Gillard work their way through University to support themselves.  I reckon cleaning Laurie Oakes toilet and house and labouring as a brickie would give Rudd a pretty clear idea of what life is about.
Luke - if you are worse off under the new IR laws then do what my kid did - he took it to the appropriate mob and got satisfaction

Henry says:

01:42pm | 25/02/10

Rudd labouring as a brickie?  Come off it!  The pudgey little git wouldn’t work in an iron lung!  Is this more of Rudd’s BS history?

I’m a tradesman and small business owner and Unions have been nothing but trouble to me as a worker and an employer.  Fees that go straight to the ALP is the only thing they do.  Cause trouble on the worksite and get between the relationship between worker and employer.

You lot are middle men at best and parasites at worst.  Most of you are no real workers and never have been.  You don’t talk for the working man and you are rusted-on to the ALP.  What a joke.

Workchoices has NOT been totally thrown out and you know it! I certainly do.  All that has been done is f’ing around with it, making the workplace far more inflexible and putting people out of work while lining the Union pockets.

We need flexibility in the workplace to cope with the international market.  Australia’s Unions are a laughing stock throughout Asia, the US and much of Europe.  Union obsession with politics (ALP/Socialism/Marxism) and class warfare is locking us into a time-warp back into the 80’s…. the 1880’s.

If you spent one day as an employer you would realise that 99% of what you preach is utter BS.

Jane says:

02:58pm | 25/02/10

Peter

You tend to forget that Rudd and Gillard gained a free university education,  Introduced by Whitlam, supported by successive Liberal Government and disbanded by Hawke and Keating.  My daughter also gained 2 degrees under the same scheme and cleaned houses to supplement what we were able to send her for her upkeep.

If I am understanding Kevin and Julias stories they would have also been receiving a student allowance, accommodation support and, every possibility in Kevins case, free fares home for holidays. Under those circumstances they were working to supplement their government income, which while not brilliant was still there.  Not quite the same thing as working your way through Uni, as did the children of parents whose combined income was above around $43,000 (if memory serves me correctly)

Scot says:

12:06am | 26/02/10

Yes, Gillards “new” politics is taking Australia back to the bad old days. People like Champion would not understand this, as he was still in nappies when we all had to pay a huge price for Labors incompetence the last time. Many of of us have long memories of these terrible grey days. One only has to look at the fool Labor party in NSW that have squandered all the good and now it will take many generations to put right, the wrong they have heaped on NSW. Read the Blog for more Labor stupidity: http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/suedunlevy/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/shysters_have_their_hands_in_the_pms_pockets/

Jack Thomas says:

12:11pm | 26/02/10

I’m still laughing at the comment “when I worked for a minimum wage, when I was a union organiser”.

Are you serious?

Union organiser ranks alongside coal mining, manual labouring and even menial service industry jobs like Maccas. My heart goes out to you, for what you must have had to endure.

Muppet.

jk says:

10:30am | 25/02/10

Yep. Deeply insightful. Because assisting your fellow citizens and protecting their jobs makes you a parasite. Huzzah for entrepreneurs and the great and glorious dream of a deregulated world. Now let’s all get up bright and early to head down to the factory gates to fight it out for a work ticket for the day. And if you miss out, don’t worry, there’ll be another chance tomorrow.
Hopefully there’ll be some other well-meaning parasite running a soup kitchen or a bread line to keep the hunger at bay for a while.

Helen says:

11:33am | 25/02/10

God I wish these small business types would get off the cross sometimes. If you’re a self employed personregularly working 14 hour days and dying from stress and this is an ongoing situation, rather than just starting up, this is perhaps nature’s way of telling you that you’re not really doing very well. Human beings are better off in medium-sized businesses where economies of scale can kick in and people can cover for each other in order for people to live their lives. But if you like suffering, good for you, but don’t boast about it.

bella starkey says:

11:45am | 25/02/10

Helen’s right. Maube you are just a shite businessman Mike.

My dad is a small business owner, he’s actually good at it. Sent us to private schools, expanded the business into new areas, trained aprentices etc… all between the hours of 7.30 and 4, monday to friday. More importantly, doesnt consider his employees wages as a burden or some sort of highway robbery, he knows that they are working to make him money and rewards them accordingly.

Al says:

04:54pm | 25/02/10

Que the criticism from the people who would never have the vision, guts and determination to start their own business.

It is a bit rich for parasites like Nick who have never produced anything in their lives to claim to know how business should be run.

Oh and Helen - how do you think most medium sized business started?

jk says:

12:07am | 26/02/10

Al I note that both you and MikeH make liberal use of the word parasite (let’s assume for a moment that you aren’t a sock puppet). In your thinking the term parasite appears to denote anyone who thinks that holding business owners responsible for the working conditions of their employees. Do you accept that working people have certain right to be treated fairly? Do you also accept that these rights are sometimes broken by employers? If so, why do you seem to hate people who work to protect these rights?
I’m being a smarta*se, I genuinely wish to understand your point of view.

jk says:

12:04pm | 26/02/10

Oops… above post should read “not” before the word smarta*se….
Kinda switches my meaning there…

Phil says:

06:21pm | 26/02/10

jk What Al appears to be saying, if I may speak on his behalf is that those who only know how to be critical of bosses would never get of their asses to start a business. Most medium sized businesses started as small businesses. Ofter many years of hard work by their owners is put in before the financial rewards come home. (well except for the large businesses that were successful and under labor governments become medium as they cant cope with the regulations and restrictions)

Employees are generally treated well althouth some employers will abuse any system even the one that is in place now. If you think otherwise you are to quote Darryl Kerrigan “Dreaming”

Nick like many of his comrades has never run any business. To say you can run a union is a joke they levy fees from members then spend the money as they see fit, with some of them doing the wrong thing.

Just like the union officials who were caught runing up expenses at houses of ill repute, and doing illegal activities, not all union bosses are crooks, many are thugs but not all are crooks. Likewise some bosses and business owners are very fair and these are in the majority, whilst others seek to take advantage of the lower employees regardless.

As I have said many times before if these so called brain surgeons who are union reps knew how to run a business their is nothing stopping them getting their members to put in and buy any business and run it how they see fit.

But we all know that will never happen.

There is nothing stopping the sheep in lifes paddock from taking out a loan and starting a business if they so decide. I did and I am doing fine. I sold my business cause I didnt want to put up with shit from employees and now I am the sole person working in it, therefore I will thrive or fall on my own sword.

Further without successful business owners paying a higher share of taxes many of the services which the needs cry out for would simply not be affordable. As I have said many times when you spend other peoples money it eventually runs out.

Nick Champion says:

09:18am | 25/02/10

Adam,
I worked as a fruit picker every summer holidays from the age of 16 to 21. I’ve picked grapes in the Barossa, apricots(easy money), Oranges (worst job ever) and peaches (makes your arms itchy after the first half hour) all on piece rates.
I also did casual work at the Kapunda Trotting track, the Gawler race track, on farms, and in shearing sheds.
After that I was cleaner, supermarket trolley collector and worked in a distribution centre. All on minimum wage or close to it.
Cheers Nick

acker says:

11:58am | 25/02/10

@Nick Champion…I think discounting any of us participating in this thread are Royal’s, you can probably take it that we have all worked, and more than likely done something distastful at some stage during our vocational life. I was decapitating Turkeys at one stage.

Phil says:

06:56pm | 25/02/10

Acker

You could relive your glory days by decapitating a few pollies in Canberra. After all the place in full of Turkeys

T.Chong says:

09:04am | 25/02/10

Associating with the truth is something that wouldnt hurt the LNP, specially with the latest strategy of promoting the LNP as the wage earners champion.
What was it Nick Minchim said about Workchoices?
Hockey was its sales person. Was he lying when he supported it ?, or lying now by saying he no longer supports it ?, if it was such a good idea, like you were saying yesterday Jim.

Scot says:

12:20am | 26/02/10

T Chong, My understanding is that very little of Work Choices has in fact been changed? So what is your point? Jamie Briggs has already made the point why this is crippling small business “The actual truth is that prior to working for the Prime Minister of Australia I worked with small business trying help them understand our complex industrial relations laws worked” How shocking is that. We are going back to the dark old days of Labor, ripping off the system and abusing the companies and the employees for you own petty gain. Does not matter as Rudd Labor like NSW Labor is for the chop very soon.

acker says:

09:52am | 25/02/10

Nick and Jamie I suggest both of you stop playing verbal tennis with this or all of us might end up being managers, workers or serfs for 2 humungous Chinese mega companies.

Jason says:

01:12pm | 25/02/10

thanks for your detailed point by point analysis.

ian m says:

02:57pm | 25/02/10

I agree Razor what’s is happening now since the advent of the new regime is we are going back to the bad old days of labour hire company’s instead of direct employment. I mean why would you take the risk, small business cannot afford unfair dismissal claims as we have just seen in the recently publicised case where a company had to re employ and pay $6000 restitution.

Razor says:

08:35pm | 25/02/10

Jason - I think my wife and I both have a fair bit of real life experience as then title says.  We supported Work Choices and oppose the current arrangements.

acker says:

10:36am | 25/02/10

@AdamC…...being an expat Victorian myself, I’ll operate as the cornerman for the Mildura Mauler (Jamie Briggs)

Matt C says:

10:42am | 25/02/10

You’re only part right. Under the post-27/3/06 Workplace Relations Act there was a Federal Minimum Wage, set by the Australian Fair Pay Commission. You’re right that under some pay scales (note: they were separated from awards during this period) some employees would be entitled to a higher legal minimum than the FMW. The FMW nevertheless existed.

The FMW has now, under the Fair Work Act, become the National Minimum Wage. This will be contained in a National Minimum Wage Order, issued by Fair Work Australia (see s.287 of the Act). Again, you’re right that some employees who are covered by industrial instruments will be entitled to higher minima by virtue of their skills and/or experience. There will, nevertheless, be a “minimum wage”.

Apologies for being pedantic, but I’m correcting AdamC’s slightly misguided pedantry. The point would have been more accurate pre-27/3/2006.

Jamie Briggs says:

11:20am | 25/02/10

Matt C is spot on, the Howard Government was the first Government to introduce a federal minimum wage

Helen says:

12:01pm | 25/02/10

Careful, Liberal / libertarian dudes.
A lot of you are painting yourself into a very strange corner here.
Either you are against Nanny-Statism and government regulation, or you aren’t. Amirite?!
Therefore, you can either be true to your principles and admit that the workplace deaths were the responsibility of the *individual employers* who sent those boys up into those rooves, *or* you can do what a lot of you have been doing recently - “Yar boo sucks the minister should resign why didn’t HE manage it better” - Which to me sounds very much like a call for ... Government regulation!
Geoff Hunt on the radio a couple of days ago: “He (Garrett) should have listened to the Unions!” Why is it that the Liberal party abandon their cherished beliefs when they think there’s a point to be scored in doing so?!

Budz says:

04:56pm | 25/02/10

Oh she got you a good one there!

Scot says:

12:33am | 26/02/10

Helen, The point is that you knew there was going to be a train wreck and you all sat on your hands and let it happen, unfortunately the price was 4 deaths and 96 houses burnt to the ground another $41M wasted on fixing the mess of checking 100,000 homes. You let comrades take the fall, good one, I like it. Nothing like a comrade you trust to support you when you know and did nothing. Thank goodness I dont have to rely on any of you.

acker says:

12:14pm | 25/02/10

@ Harquebus…WTF is the following dribble meant to mean ??.....“This from a representative who does not represent his constituents” ...he’s a member of parliament obviously his constituents elected him !!

ian m says:

03:08pm | 25/02/10

It means dear comrade aker that labor members of parliament have no free will to take a political stand for their constituents or they face dismissal from the party just like the good socialists brother of old unable to have a view other than the party line.

Harquebus says:

12:20pm | 26/02/10

Thank you ian m.

pete says:

12:19pm | 25/02/10

spot on, it’s a pity they didnt recognise the people who actually built their business for them, the employees. Then we see rubbish about wanting a deregulated system, The biggest regulators in this country are the 4 banks an big chains. the only time you manage well in small business is if you have a business no of the big chains are in, it’s even happening in medecine

haggis says:

12:28pm | 25/02/10

Yeah, but wifout them hairy-chested business backstuds, the Gubmint’s got nuffin . . . . .  Where else they gonna get their money?

Tie says:

01:09pm | 25/02/10

More power to you Darryl, but there are other people in say, the retail industry that do not have the negotiating power that you do. They are on AWAs (still) and do and get a flat rate of pay (the bare minimum) regardless of how many hours and what days they work. Workchoices was not good for people in a poor bargaining position.

Phil says:

07:33pm | 25/02/10

Tie

What you are saying is esentially correct. Some lower paid workers were disadvantaged by work choices. However if Australia only ever looked after the lowest common denominator, we would get nowhere as a country.

People harp on about workers protection, but where is it for employers. They can train and employ someone to gain skills only for that person to up and go to another job down the road for $ 1,000 more. Yet the reverse does not apply.

Many employers did the right thing by their employees. Not all but most. Further during work choices it was in a boom time, you were free to move jobs if you choose. Unemployment was much lower than now and you could pick and choose jobs. Employment also grew under Work Choices.

Like everyone above I worked in a full service station pumping gas at a young age to suppliment my drinking and partying budget. I knew I was getting worked but it was my choice. No one forced me to take the job, the hours, nor the pay. The only person to hold a gun to my head was probably a labor voter wearing a balaclava who demanded money from the till.

I dont care that my children may not have got paid appropriately to work in McDonalds as a youngster, I want them to work there for the experience and to get into a habit of working for money not for the pay as they dont need it but for life experience.

But when my daughter shows initiative and starts her own business, I also want her to reap the rewards. After all it will be her or my cash which starts it up.

Business owners need to get a return on capital of at least 8-10% hopefully more, otherwise they would be better selling/closing down the business and puting the money into other investments and there goes the employees jobs.

Workchoices did disadvantage some employees, but I can tell you from businesses that I know that used it, yes there was no penalty rates, but on a flat hourly rate adjusted to take this into consideration it worked and everyone was happy. Some employers did the wrong thing and took advantage of employees but if you think it wont happen under the current regime I have a bridge that needs painting to sell you. Now like under work choices they will get caught and prosecuted.

No one is forcing low paid workers to slave away when they are unhappy. They can start their own business for very little money and reap the rewards financially, time wise etc should they choose. Life is a choice some choose to succeed others to just be sheep in the paddock of life.

The ALP/unions can barely run a local council, let alone a state or federal government. They have no concept of budget, income verses expenses or profit. The unions are free to buy the business assets from Bridgestone, Pacific Brands and many others who are moving offshore cause the local labor has priced themselves out of the market and try and make a business work as they obviously know more about running a business than those who currently do, pay the rates they demand others do, penalty rates, 38 hour week smoko etc and watch how quick they go broke and lose their money.

For the record I ran a business for 12 years 4 as owner. It still runs today, average length of service 10 years. It grew from 5 employees to currently 25. No one complains as I listened to my staff but they knew if the company didnt make money, it would be sold and the capital invested into property or the money put in the bank. (No one is paid the award wage, the min over award is +40%) I dont pay myself the highest wage in the place, never have never will.

When cash was tight it was I and my business partner who went without wages till the cash came in, but staff never went without or were paid one day late other than for a bank mistake. When that did occur twice I went and took out cash to lend them until the bank put cleared funds in their accounts the next day. It was my house on the line, like my partner, it was us who provided guarantees to the bank not the employees.

Dingo says:

07:45pm | 26/02/10

Well said Phil.

I do bookwork for several small businesses (electricians and builders)  whose story is very similar to yours.

They know their reputation depends on their workers and pay well above award to keep good workers. They occasionally make a poor choice of employee which damages their reputation, demoralises other workers and cost hours in management time and stress. They struggle emotionally with having to sack a leech and now they will struggle legally to do so. There is absolutely nothing fair about it.

Robert Smissen says:

03:27pm | 26/02/10

Hindsight is a wonderful thing mate, won’t it be wonderful to see how voters go in the next few months. Shades of 1975