Wooden spooning is assault, no back chat

AFR says:

12:39pm | 15/10/09

The wooden spoon hurts - just ask Roosters supporters.

DaveA says:

12:42pm | 15/10/09

Au contraire, rather than elminating the corporal punishment of children we should be reintroducing the corporal punishment of adults who behave like children.  Those thugs committing assaults and glassings should be publicly flogged.

AFR says:

12:43pm | 15/10/09

But seriously, I was one of those ratbag kids with a traditional dad, so that meant the belt, slipper, spoon, or whatever else was handy. Sure I turned out fine, but I don’t exactly think its ideal parenting either. It does seem a bit of a double standard that we wouldn’t think of hitting others with implements, but kids are ok.

Realist says:

12:45pm | 15/10/09

Will these people stop hitting their kids just because they don’t have a stick?  Get over yourself!  If smacking is ‘harmful and damaging’  does that mean that 80% of Australia’s population is harmed and damaged because they were once smacked?  Preposterous!

In other countries women are stoned to death and charged with adultery for being raped.  There are bigger fish in your pinko ocean to fry and I suggest you look at the big picture.

Deborah Vaughan says:

12:48pm | 15/10/09

Too right Susie. I’ve just spent three years living in New Zealand, where almost every week the public was regaled was horrendous, horrifying stories of child abuse. Google Nia Glassie for starters, or the Kahui twins. It really opens your eyes about these issues. You might think that screaming kid in the supermarket deserves a smack but what’s probably more the case is that the parent has no idea of alternative strategies. Civilised societies don’t belt their kids, full stop.

Simmo says:

12:49pm | 15/10/09

Susie,

Do you have kids?
Have you ever had to discipline them when they were naughty?

(if you have answered No to either of these questions you opinion is not valid)...

Dave C says:

12:50pm | 15/10/09

I think the best way to respond to this is to quote the great Philosopher Homer J Simpson.

“When will you Australians learn? In America, we stopped using corporal punishment, and things have never been better. The streets are safe. Old people strut confidently in the darkest alleys. And the weak and nerdy are admired for their computer-programming abilities. So, like us, let your children run wild and free! Because, as the old saying goes, “let your children run wild and free.”

If children know they cant be hit…EVER then they can get away with whatever they like. They can swear at and verbally abuse whoever they like and they know that you cant touch them and if you do then the do gooders will have the responsible parent arrested. Gee who has the power now…. This sort of stuff has been happening to teachers for years. Yep just give the kids what they want with no logical consequences whatsoever and just like America in Homers quote things will never be better

Julia (not THAT one) says:

12:58pm | 15/10/09

How can you compare a relationship with a wife/husband with that of a child? Is the writer in a relationship where the fella needs the same sort of personal development a 12-year-old boy needs? Or an 8-year-old girl? If he is, get out. Now.

TimT says:

12:58pm | 15/10/09

It also makes no sense to me to declare war on thugs in the street and yet still allow parents to hit their kids.

False. It makes much more sense to target law efforts at those who disturb the public peace, and act in an unprovoked and violent manner towards others, than it does to target law efforts at cases of family punishment that have long been an accepted part of the community.

if there are some cases where parents or guardians punish excessively, then, fine. Target those cases. There’s no need to introduce a blanket law which is in any case enforced by the implicit violence of the state.

Tim says:

01:00pm | 15/10/09

What a load of crap,
when i was a kid if my father had tried to sit me down and explain that i was being bad and he was giving me a “timeout” i would’ve laughed in his face.
However the threat of copping the belt or the wooden spoon had me behaving myself 99.9% of the time.
People who argue against smacking don’t realise that different children will react to different punishments. Talking through an issue may be OK for some children, but for others, there is no substitute for a firm smack to the buttocks.

Julia says:

01:05pm | 15/10/09

Simmo: She says she has three boys. If she is that marvellous at disciplining them, she’d be able to say with absolute confidence her kids aren’t considered feral and are always invited back.

D says:

01:09pm | 15/10/09

@Simmo - read the third to last paragraph again:
“Now, as a parent of three young kids, I know how hard it is to get discipline right. In fact, it’s bloody hard work.”

Button says:

01:11pm | 15/10/09

Susie, it seems that your article rests on the adult reasoning that, as you put it: “(If) You aren’t allowed to smack your partner, why should you be allowed to smack your child?”
However, we’ve had issue with treating children just as “little adults” in the past.. child labour comes immediately to my mind. As we’ve learned in that instance children aren’t little adults and thus, adult reasoning doesn’t always suffice.
Your argument that the law should protect against bad parenting seems reasonable enough, however could a ban ever be properly policed inside the home to deter the minority who feel the urge to hit kids at the drop of a hat, as you imply?
Perhaps you’ve read The Slap recently and felt the urge to affiliate with Rosie, the character who’s twisted morals - that result in Hugo being hugged and spoken to instead of disciplined when he hits other children or spits in an old man’s face - can conjur lines such as this: “In any case, what kind of message are we sending our children when we slap them? That violence is acceptable, that’s what.”
There is a place for discipline that instills messages and values when all other forms of communication fail to educate.

Simmo says:

01:13pm | 15/10/09

Deborah - big difference between child abuse and giving your kid a tap on the butt for being a right little so and so….

I guess some people just don’t know where that line in the sand is…

Worried says:

01:18pm | 15/10/09

What drivel.  The thugs on the streets are CAUSED by the lack of discipline as a child.  There’s a big difference between a small tap on the bum of a naughty child and serious abuse.  The schools are now awash with kids who think they have the “right” to do whatever they please and get away with it.  They then keep on thinking that when they’re adults - and then get aggro when they find that they’re no longer treated like mummy’s precious little
flower.

Smacking (not belting or punching - learn the difference) is the most effective way to teach kids that there are consequences for bad behaviour.  Kids aren’t adults - you can’t reason with a kid the same way as you do with an adult.

James says:

01:26pm | 15/10/09

“...Sure, most parents who smack do so with minimum force and only as a last resort. But there are some who, given the OK to hit their kids, don’t know when to stop. And it’s their children who need the protection a total ban would bring….”

So you can acknowledge that most parents do it in a reasonable way and only when necessary, yet you seem to think that outlawing it would discourage those that abuse it with too much from ever smacking their children?

Hint:  If someone is already acting inappropriately and abusing their children through using too much force and over using ‘the smack’ then a law will not change their ways.

It’ll be about as usefull as speed limits - they don’t stop those who choose to ignore the rules.

Julia says:

01:32pm | 15/10/09

Deborah: those cases in NZ are a bit different to the nuclear family arrangement we’re looking at in this Victorian case.  The abused kids in those situations were living in an extended family situation and the main culprits were not natural fathers or mothers. It was pack abuse of little children. The defendants then had the nerve to claim it was ‘culturally’ right for them to do what they did.

The government was forced to introduce the laws so there was never a loophole defence if a child was abused to the point of death.

So can we not compare apples and oranges here?

Simmo says:

01:38pm | 15/10/09

Apologies to all for not reading the third to last paragraph where Susie’s kids finally get a mention but it just seemed to be glossed over ever so quickly I missed it…

I agree fully with Worried that their is a BIG difference between a smack and a belting….

David says:

02:09pm | 15/10/09

I actually thanked my vice principal when I graduated High School for giving me the cane. I was a real so & so in Year 9 and after receiving the cane, it woke me up to the fact that my behaviour was unacceptable. I was wagging, smoking, being rude. Receiving corporal punishment in school was real turning point for me personally.

I ended up School Captain and Sports Age Champion of that school.  Thank you Sir for the cane, I know I would be in a very different place if not for that.

Dave says:

02:18pm | 15/10/09

There are several differences. I’ll point out one.

A smack to a child using a limited amount of force is for the purposes of discipline. In other words it is to teach a child something that he needs to learn in order to be a functioning member of society. Almost always this is because the child has willfully refused to heed all reasonable attempts to learn that lesson.

Hitting your partner is just to get your own way or express your own frustration.

Ryan says:

02:26pm | 15/10/09

I wonder what your children are like Susie. Why don’t you think about the youth today compared with 20years ago? I think there is a pretty clear relationship being youth behaviour and corporal punishment (at home or in schools). It’s quite obvious there is much less discipline in our young males and even young females. This was effectively controlled by corporal punishment in the past generations but we now think we are better, the only problem is our kids are not. There is a very small minority of bad parents (who cannot control their anger) have caused this behaviour management strategy to be condemn. Every child is different, for some children, corporal punishment can be effective. It is best to leave the decision of what strategy to employ up to those best informed. Which is NOT you Susie, it’s the parents of each individual.

Dave says:

02:27pm | 15/10/09

The child abuse in NZ is primarily about the lack of biological fathers involved in parenting. I can cite many studies to support this. Other factors vary but biological father involvement is by far the most significant. A child without an actively involved father is a child at risk. Particularly if they are Maori. Obviously none of this is PC and this is why it does not get addressed and so the cycle continues over there.
It has nothing to do with making criminals out of parents who smack their children.
The cases of Nia Glassie and Kahui illustrate as well as any other.  A ban on smacking would not have helped those children in the slightest bit.

ChelseaLee says:

02:29pm | 15/10/09

“All forms of smacking children should be banned – it shouldn’t matter whether it is hand, spoon or belt. It is still physical assault, and our children deserve better.”

I agree Susie - Our children do deserve better. They deserve better than to be ‘disciplined’ by their well-meaning but spineless parents, swayed by changing public opinion and words such as ‘assault’.

They deserve better than to grow up and become a ‘thug in the street’, simply because their parents were too afraid to give them a good smack on the bum and pull them into line before it was too late.

And they deserve better than to receive their discipline from police, when every child, whether they realise it or not, *wants* to be shown a firm hand by their parents - because a firm hand interprets as love, and a genuine desire to see a child learn lessons in life and develop into the best they can be. It builds respect for authority and respect for rules, while teaching the concept of boundaries, consequences to actions, and the value of making a good and right decision to avoid such things.

As I said in Leo’s relating post - Spare the rod, spoil the child.

Michaela says:

02:48pm | 15/10/09

I am more worried about the damaging effect of bullying at school than the occasional smack on the bum.

Vicki PS says:

02:49pm | 15/10/09

Having myself been disciplined with wooden spoon, cane and belt as a child, and clearly able to tell the difference between punishment (from mum) and abuse (from dad), I agree that a blanket ban on physical punishment is unnecessary and pointless.  However, I do wholeheartedly agree that striking with an implement is unacceptable.  Sure, the wooden spoon wielded by a sane mum as a last resort probably won’t cause last trauma, but there’s something about using an implement to punish with that makes me cringe. 
I realise that an abusive parent can do just as much damage with open-handed smacks, but laws are made to draw a clear bottom line (as it were), and I think the use of implements is it.

RT says:

02:50pm | 15/10/09

I agree with drawing the line at the use of a ‘weapon’ to smack. It’s just not necessary. You have to ask, how much pain do you want to inflict, or is more about shame? if the latter, a good angry verbal blast would usually suffice, or at most, a smack with an open hand on the back of the thighs would sting enough. But just writing this out makes me think how delicate this matter is. We are talking about beating our own beloved infant children. Is this the best we can do as parents?

@Ryan and others with the ‘look at the ill-discipline of children today…’ line - you can find similar sentiments expressed in the writings of the ancient Greeks, and if you go forward 1,000 years, you’ll probably find the same thing.

Jade says:

02:51pm | 15/10/09

See you are the reason why there are so many ferel children and teenagers out there.  kids are not going to “reason with you”, they will look at you and be like yeah what ever.  If you are a parent you have every right to smack your child to inforce dicilplin.  I know when I have kids I will use the 3 warnings and then its a smack…. and I wont have ferel little kids!

Jarrod says:

02:54pm | 15/10/09

The author of this piece defeats her own argument.  As she admits, the majority of parents use a smack with minimum force and as a last resort.  I am one of those majority of parents.  One of my wife’s friends refuses to physically discipline her kids.  There is a good reason why we never take our children over there.

Our preferred method of parenting is to send the child to a separate room, leave them there for 30 seconds to a minute, then talk to them to tell them why what they did was wrong.  In the absence of an adult understanding, the threat of a smack bottom if they are consistently naughty is one of the biggest motivators to change their behavior (well, that and the fact that we reward good behavior).

I’m all in favour of improving parents’ ability to deal with children that does not involve physical discipline, but I am most decidedly against any such idiocy as treating a parent disciplining a child in a manner that does not cause any physical harm (i.e. the current laws) as assault

Simmo says:

02:54pm | 15/10/09

...another thing, my 7 year old daughter was stabbed in the hand with a pencil at school the other day and the little shit who did it just got told by the teacher that it “wasn’t a nice thing to do” meanwhile my wife spent a good hour trying to scrape a bit of pencil out of my daughters hand…

I told my daughter she had my full permission to go and snot the little prick the next day (she didn’t as she is a good girl and not violent), however, if she had done so would that have made her a bully? if that little shit’s parent had given him an odd smack or two for acting up he might not be stabbing girls at school with pencils….

Krystle says:

03:06pm | 15/10/09

Im a 27yr old mother of 2 and i copped smacks when i was a kid and im very thankful for it! i was a bit of a wildchild and now im older i genuinly feel extreme remorse 4 what i did to my parents while i was growing up. But now here i am all these years later making a great life for myself and my kids. my 2 kids get a smack on the bum mabey once every few mths… Y only every few months i hear u say… Its because my kids, especially my mini-me son knows when hes going too far and usually he stops because he knows whats coming. I do also do time outs and take away prevledges ect ( smackings a last resort) but usually he wont care about losing his stuff or being grounded…the same as i didnt care at his age But he sure does care about the embarrasment he feels once he gets that smack and it sure pulls him in line quick smart.  Theres a huge difference between flogging the daylights out of your child and giving them a little smack,.Sometimes there are times when a smack is needed. My son still tells his friends im his best mate and thats even when hes had a smack. we have a very close knit and loving family . Im not a violent person who bashes people, im a mother who cares about where her childs life will go without reasonable disapline and i will contine to raise my childeren the way i see fit.

Lynnette says:

03:13pm | 15/10/09

The problem with this debate is, as you said most parents smack with minimum force and their children understand why they are smacked and don’t have the problem many anti-smacking people have. But that’s not the problem, the problem is the abusers would still abuse their children because it’s all about power, not about discipline

ts says:

03:43pm | 15/10/09

you think by outlawing ‘smacking’ (minimum force) you will reduce the number of people who legitimately assault their kids? fool.

your kids are probably those little sh*ts my girl tells me about every day running around her childcare, who simply refuse to be told what to do as they know full well they won’t receive any real punishment.  “no, seriously don’t.”

i certainly remember nothing stopped me when i really wanted to do something, other than the threat of a smack.  and the threat was almost always enough.

AdamC says:

03:44pm | 15/10/09

This article is unconvincing, bordering on the ridiculous. Likening parents who use physical discipline to street thugs shows the writer’s desperation and the glib slogan (you wouldn’t hit your partner, etc) which attempts to obliquely equate smacking children to domestic violence is offensive.

Bottom line: it is not at all hard for a sensible person to distinguish between reasonable discipline and abuse, and abusive parents’ behaviour is not going to be changed by making non-abusive physical discipline illegal. In fact, the whole argument is a logical disaster – actual abuse is already illegal, Susie!

If one is anti-smacking to the extent they believe it should be banned, they should make a proper argument why, based on facts, not try to throw everyone down a rhetorical (literally) rabbit-hole of irrelevancies and silliness. For example, has there been any research which suggests smacking (with spoons or otherwise) genuinely harms children’s development?

phil roxburgh says:

03:45pm | 15/10/09

Suzie, I’m sorry but you really are out of step (politically correct though - but isn’t that a sad stigmata to want to wear). Discipline via a smack is limited in violence and application. Abuse comes from raw anger, greed and other deadly sins. Children are not little adults it is illogical to have expectations as logic and common sense of them, as at various stages you just cannot reason at a sufficient level with them.
Sooner or later someone is going to get a PHD based on how the removal of all forms of corporal punishment in our ever loosening society has lead to increases in violent crime and murder.

T.Chong says:

03:53pm | 15/10/09

If you shouldnt/coildnt hit yur partner than why is it ok to hit a child.?
Partners can also do stupid, mean destructive or decietful actions, yet we dont/shouldnt hit them. Many a perpetrator of domestic violence claims the abused partner “asked for it”“got what they deserved”
Could the acceptance of child smacking be because it largely involves mothers, and as a society we have a great difficulty in recognising female perpetrated violence?
For the detractors we have 2 kids, who do as their told,respect authority etc and never hit once.

SM says:

03:57pm | 15/10/09

Simmo, if the only punishment that other student got for stabbing your daughter with a pencil was being told that it wasn’t a nice thing to do, you might need to consider changing schools.  That’s outrageous

And just as so many others have said, to compare smacking a child in a moderate way with any notion of criminal assault is utter madness.

Sheridan says:

04:02pm | 15/10/09

Need a bandaid Susie??

Gavin says:

04:59pm | 15/10/09

Absolute extreme left-wing rubbish article, this. Children need love, tenderness, understanding and respect - absolutely. But they also need to realise who is boss when they persistently transgress the rights and wrongs, backchat or refuse to comply. Parents are bosses and children need to be reinforced.

In saying that, I fail to see how anything more than an open palm is ever needed to accomplish this. Seriously, if you needs to use implements to smack a tot, how weak are you? How gutless. And to all you respondents out there of the “my-ol-pappy-used-the-stick/belt/boot-on-me-when-I-was-a-rascal-youngen” kind, yes I am saying your ol pappy/mammy was weak and gutless if they used anything other than their open hands on you. There, said it. Challenge me if you will, but really think about it.

RM says:

05:19pm | 15/10/09

If you don’t smack them on the bum now, they’ll grow up to be those little bastards that end up getting smacked a hell of a lot harder — whether it’s another kid at school or the police, sooner or later they’re going to encounter the physical barrier that exists when society has finally had enough of their behaviour to allow someone (usually the over-worked police) to grab them and physically enforce some authority. I won’t leave it up to the authorities to turn my 3 children into well-adjusted adults, I’d rather take on the responsibility myself. If it means I’m arrested for assault, and that’s what it takes to keep my kids in line and on the right track to a good life, I’ll wear that…

the faux journalist says:

05:37pm | 15/10/09

Susie, thank you for your voice of sanity. 

96% of Daily Telegraph readers voting in favour of smacking kids, yet i bet the same readers were absolutely outraged months ago when a Muslim cleric said it was okay to discipline your wife with a smack.

So which is it guys? yes you can smack children because theyre small and wont hit back? or is it because they are stupid like dogs, not really human yet, like boat people, they are too dumb to understand? and dont give me the argument that you were once hit and now youre fine. people get raped and end up living normal lives, does that make rape ok does it? Very strange people who read the daily tele and herald sun.. very strange complex breed

would love to see a muslim cleric announce say hitting a child with a wooden spoon is in the Koran so is ok. the daily tele readers would have a fit about it.

Nathan H says:

06:19pm | 15/10/09

Susie, it is try unfortunate that abusive posts are removed, because you truly deserve an avalanche of acidic invective. You and your 5% of supporters have no right to force your absurd views upon the 95% of us who have a clue. You may be happy for your children to become career sandwich artists, dole bludgers or criminals, but the rest of us intend something better for our kids. For anything great in life, a person needs to learn discipline, and right from wrong. When they are too young to choose to the the right thing, they must be made to do the right thing. Just like with adults; when logical levers don’t work, and social levers don’t work, physical levers do.

So, if you think your kids will end up prime ministers and supreme court judges because you ‘tut-tut’ed them in a stern fashion; that’s fine. Here on planet earth however,  you have no right to stick your nose into everyone else’s parenting.

Vicki PS says:

06:21pm | 15/10/09

Re. the “you aren’t allowed to smack your partner” argument—wrong.  You aren’t allowed to assault your partner.  I realise I’m on very delicate ground here, but I doubt that I am alone in having given my husband a slap across the bicep when he says/does something particularly outrageous, or in giving him a hard elbow in the ribs when he tries to steal the duvet.  My old feller may behave like a kid most of the time, but he (like most kids) can tell the difference between a smack and an assault.  (If you’d like to ask him whether he thinks he’s a victim of spousal abuse, you’ll probably be told not to be so bloody silly).

Craig says:

06:39pm | 15/10/09

wait.. so Im not allowed to smack my partner?

Jono says:

06:57pm | 15/10/09

Err, Susie, there is a reason 90% of Australians support it…because it makes sense and its one of the responsibilities of being a parent.

Breezle says:

07:22pm | 15/10/09

Simmo says:01:49pm | 15/10/09

Susie,

Do you have kids?
Have you ever had to discipline them when they were naughty?

(if you have answered No to either of these questions you opinion is not valid)...

I have no kids, is my opinion invalid Simmo?

OH wait…I still remember when I was 12 and my mum started with the wooden spoon but this time it was different…first on my hands, then wrists, then arms, then shoulders and finished being smashed into my head before it finally shattered after tearing my skin apart. When at that point she decided fists were acceptable. That was til I fell to the floor and feet were also used against me.

Threats are one thing, but I have been on the end of a parent using physical punishment who couldn’t stop themselves stepping straight into assault when the rage got far enough.

I don’t want ANY adult thinking getting physical is an answer. EVER. Against other adults, animals or children. How can you teach your children violence is not acceptable when you use it against them?

So don’t you DARE say not being a parent makes people like me UNABLE to have an opinion.

Dave says:

08:08pm | 15/10/09

Lazy parenting is parents not disciplining their children or using methods which are not effective for their children. People should spend more time thinking about their own children rather than idiot journalists and so called children’s rights who think they have the right to tell other parents that their way of disciplining children is the best way and only way.

The major problem today is that these people are taking over and making parents scared to discipline their children and we’re seeing a generation of children who have never heard the word no and getting in trouble means “don’t do that little johnny, it’s bad”.

Each parent has or should have the right to discpline in a way that is effective for their children. Discipline is not going to be the same for all children, and for the people that other methods works, then great. If a smack on the bottom works, then that should be okay too. We are not talking about beating to an inch of their life, and the majorty of parents understand that. It’s time the do-gooders of the world shut up and let people discipline properly without unwarranted and rediculous attention like we have seen in this related story.

Vicki PS says:

09:20pm | 15/10/09

@the faux journalist:  Quote ” i bet the same readers were absolutely outraged months ago when a Muslim cleric said it was okay to discipline your wife with a smack”.  The difference, as I am sure you are perfectly well aware, is in the concept of disciplining an adult.  A husband does not have the right to “discipline” his wife, by whatever means.  Parents have both the right and the responsibility to discipline their children.  Give up on the straw men and go say hello to your keyboard’s Shift key.

James says:

09:21pm | 15/10/09

@ “the faux journalist”...

Comparing smacking your wife as discipline, to smacking your children as discipline has one very major flaw…

You should not be disciplining your wife in the first place.

Parents should discipline their children so they can learn what is right and wrong - whether or not they should use physical punishment is a matter of opinion, but when it comes to your adult partner, you should not be disciplining them at all - if you feel the need to go that far you should’t be in a relationship, so using wife bashing as a comparison is stupid - that and it’s illegal - but does that mean it doesn’t happen?

Examples like that of “Breezle @ 8:22pm” would unfortunately still occur even if smacking was outlawed.

martinX says:

11:25pm | 15/10/09

My mum used both the wooden spoon and the hairbrush on me and I turned out just fine. Mind you, I’m the one who is going to be choosing her nursing home. Now where’s the brochure for Big Kev’s Discount Retirement Villa and Crematorium?

Mothe of three who HAS smacked my kids says:

07:45am | 16/10/09

Oh dear Susie. Do you realise how much of a latte-leftie, pompous tosser you sound like? Preaching & postulating your ‘Mother of three’ supposedly expert opinion. I wonder how well behaved your kids are? Have you checked with friends, family & peers & gained an honest opinion to see whether your soft hands off parenting approach has actually worked? Or would you be shocked & horrified to learn that your little darlings might be considered terrorists & precocious monsters of the worst kind by others - because you’ve never had the bottle to issue the odd smack.  Waving the wooden spoon at a child is not that big a deal & using it from time to time isn’t either.

Mother of two who HASN'T smacked says:

08:22am | 16/10/09

I have never smacked my children because from when they were a very young age I have used other forms of discipline which, even now as teenagers, they respect.

My father hit me and my brothers often and we, in turn, fought with each other causing hostility, misery, and physical pain.

I think that if you don’t hit your children, and don’t allow any physical fighting between them, you are sending a VERY clear message that violence is not the way to resolve disputes.

You can easily scoff and say “Time Out wouldn’t have worked for me”, but that is because you are remembering yourself as the person you were, someone whose discipline was shaped by the threat of physical pain.

Hitting a child doesn’t take “bottle” - it is the easy way out. Enforcing other forms of discipline is MUCH more difficult, is not a quick fix, takes a lot of patience, and I don’t think these kinds of efforts should be sneered at.

Lexi says:

08:29am | 16/10/09

My husband and I are yet to have kids, so I understand that some people may stop reading now… But I’m a teacher and I’ve never, ever felt any urge to smack a student.  There are strategies you can use in a school to address behaviour issues… BUT, in a school, you can always escalate things.  Like send a kid to the principal and he/she can exclude (suspend) the child.

I think when we do have kids, smacking MAY be the last step in a discipline plan.  I say this because, I think a child should never be smacked in anger - do it as part of a discipline plan if you want, but not as a reaction or to hurt.

The reason I say I would consider smacking is because I have this scenario in my mind:
My children need to be controllable for their own safety.  If I don’t smack and instead “reason” every time my kids ignore me, it’s too late to “reason” with them when they are heading towards a road with a semi travelling at 60km/hr.  If they know I mean business when I use a tone of voice saying “come here, NOW”, because I have sparingly used a smack in the past, then it has been worthwhile.

My two-bob’s worth anyhow.

Isabel says:

09:20am | 16/10/09

Withdrawal of affection is a far more potent disciplinary tool than smacking with anything. The only problem is that the affection has to be there in the first place. If your parents were not fond enough of you to make the withdrawal of affection effective then they would have smacked you instead and you think that is the way to go.
If parents need to smack as a form of discipline then they have problems they need to address before passing the problem down to the next generation.

Julia says:

09:32am | 16/10/09

Breezle: we’re not talking about abuse. The experiences you went through are horrific and I’m so sorry to read about them. Sorry because they actually happened and sorry they happened to you.

But smacking, and the way this mother tried to use the spoon as a deterrant, not a weapon, is different. Completely different.

Parent before you ask says:

09:50am | 16/10/09

Violence is never acceptgable against kids or adults.Did you hear about the DV rehab group who learned to control their anger and use emotional violence instead? No bruises,no charges, no goal.Wonder how many of them saw violence as kids?

Ian says:

09:56am | 16/10/09

Get real! The world has suffered long enough at the hands of arrogant do-gooders who assume the moaral high ground by extending simple tenets to ridiculous extremes. Discipling a child is far removed from assualt or brutality. If a child is brutalised, then treat that problem, but leave parents to administer discipline as they see fit. I agree with all the repondents who see a direct link between lack of real discipline and societal breakdown. Enough is enough!!!

Reinhard Heydrich says:

10:27am | 16/10/09

Why stop at wooden spoons, what about baseball bats,monkey wrenches , 4 x2’s etc. Some people are just so soft.It is a tough world out there,prepare them now.

Mick says:

11:19am | 16/10/09

My parents using the wooden spoon (or wire coat hanger) on us kids just made me lose respect for them.

Zing says:

11:52am | 16/10/09

Consider this: most of the youth who are “running wild” and assaulting people come from lower socio-economic backgrounds. How do you think they discipline in those households? Do you think they implement all these psychologically verified methods or just hit their kids instead? As someone who works with ‘disadvantaged’ groups all the time I can assure you the latter is the case.

At the end of the day the argument is the same: “I got smacked and I’m fine, therefore it’s not assault when I do it to my kids”. Even though countless psychological studies and health organisations have shown that this is not the case. Hint: anecdotal evidence doesn’t mean anything when compared to peer-reviewed science. Choosing to ignore it is burying your head in the sand, nothing more.

modernmum says:

12:35pm | 16/10/09

I got the wooden spoon, belt, and the kettle cord (occasionally with kettle still attached) as a kid. Of all those the wooden spoon hurt the least, in fact they’d usually break on contact. My mother was actually fond of hiding behind doors or waiting until we were in the bath to get us…but we were truly awful kids; TRULY.  Anyway I swore black and blue (sorry, bad pun) that I’d never do the same to my kids but still found myself recently chasing them round the kitchen and up the stairs armed with a kitchen utensil..Unfortunately due to my age, cigarette habit and physique I ran out of breath half way up and as I sat gasping I looked up to see my kids clustered about the top of the stairs laughing their guts out. So personally the spoon doesn’t work for me, but I have often remarked to my husband that I wouldn’t mind a taser -like device that can be used ( in moderation)after the little dears have ignored or defied me once to often.

Isabel says:

12:42pm | 16/10/09

Julia, a mother (such as mine was) can start with a wooden spoon and find herself venting anger which has nothing to do with her child’s misdemeanour.  My mother stopped belting me when my grandmother threatened her with the police if she laid another finger on me. Somehow, I knew I was being used as a whipping boy (girl) and thought that meant that I was strong enough to take her fury - which would not have applied to younger siblings. Before her death, it was realised that she had been sexually abused over 70 years previously but had never recognised it, faced it or dealt with it. SO unless someone is absolutely certain of the level of anger they carry round as seemingly normal behaviour, they would be wise to refrain from using physical means as a form of discipline. The line between discipline and abuse is too fine to risk it. For those who think it never did them any harm - how do you know how harmed you are?

Carl Palmer says:

02:59pm | 16/10/09

It sounds to me like there is a little bit more to this story than meets the eye. If this was a “one off” incident, then I’d say that calling the sexual offences and child abuse unit was over the top. If there is a history of abuse then call the police - stat.

For mine, the occasional, timely and firm smack on the bum (even with a wooden spoon) is a good thing – a “reality check” if you will. Do it all the time and it become’s “the norm” and its shock factor will be lost.
 
Oh and out of interest what are the “alternative ways to make kids behave”? Do these alternatives work on all children? If the answer is yes, why haven’t we got better behaved kids sitting at bus stops instead of those little shits that constantly smash the glass?

And another thing – you may also want to give consideration to other forms of “assault” that are probably more damaging on a child e.g. emotional assault, verbal assault

Olly Wypych says:

03:50pm | 16/10/09

What utter nonsense. It’s patheticelly weak-willed and gutless attitudes like this in parents that makes for poorly behaved children. Nobody wants to see children abused, or severely beaten, but discipline is a very important part of a child’s education and physical re-inforcement is an entirely valid part of this process.

Ben G says:

04:30pm | 16/10/09

Why does someone dumb enough to equate a light smack on the bum with child abuse get a column?
Hey The Punch, I reckon Obama was born in Australia! Send me a cheque and I’ll give you the rest of the story!

Paula says:

08:45am | 17/10/09

Susie - I agree with you 100%. And there are many parents out there who do. Parents so not have a right to use physical force against anyone, including their children.Teaching children that smacking or hitting someone is ok to solves disputes should not be part of their education. In fact if you have to smack your child to get them to behave, then you have lost control.

Angela says:

12:06pm | 17/10/09

Who hasn’t broken a wooden spoon or two? Most of us grew up with ‘traditional’ parents who grew up with the cane.
When you have kids you don’t get given a guide to managing child behaviour. You do what you have learnt. The key is to teach people alternative discipline techniques.

Kathleen says:

09:58am | 23/10/09

Thank God - I’m not the only person who thinks smacking kids is hypocritical. How can you tell your kids not to hit someone if you’re doing it to them? It teaches them that knee-jerk physical reactions are an acceptable method of dealing with problems.
Arguments of `kids these days are out of control because they weren’t hit’ are absolute rubbish. Most of the `kids these days’ were probably smacked by their parents - I was and I can tell you now it didn’t work.
There are other ways to keep kids in line without having them live in fear of violence from the people they trust most in the world - how do you think teachers and childcare workers deal with whole classes? Show some restraint, think about your actions, and you might just set a good example for them.
PS Yes, I do have kids, and I won’t ever hit them - just like I would never hit any other person - it’s assault.

Lou says:

05:51pm | 24/03/10

Susie O’Brien, your story is a load of rubbish. I am a very well educated father of 3 lovely well balanced children doing very well in school and sports. I could not want a better family and either could they (18, 14 & 3 y/o).

We use a range of punnishments including the wooden spoon on the bottom (after 3 warnings).  All of my childen will defend our rules and punishments as just - not because they dont know any better but because they will tell you that we are fair and they deserved it for misbehaving in an unsatisfactory manner.

Of course we dont like punnishing our children but we also dont like antisocial or other unnaceptable manner. I realise the community is torn on this subject but my experience has been seeing kids running around supermarkets uncontrolled and disruptive, resturants, sitting on planes spitting at each other, yelling at their mum, swearing at other people with aggressive manner, and running accross a busy road despite being told not to. I can tell you that is not on and i get pretty annoyed when i see parents say “Johnny dont do that love” or “you wait to we get home”. My answer -  deal with it there and then a smack on the bum, a clip accross the ears, smack on the wrist accompanied with a stern warning that if it continues there will be further repercussions.  I can assure you my children would never behave like that EVER !

I speak to so many people about unnaceptable behaviour of children and hear replies he has ADHD, she is going through an emotional time at the moment, he is just rebeling as a teenager…etc These are excuses for parents not acting in the required manner. Every parent wants to be the best parent and we all learn this through time. BUt everybodies situation is different and some are able to do things others cannot. But the point here is the either act or they dont. Escalating punnishment is effective and sometimes going directly to a smack is appropriate.

I feel compelled to repond to this article because you are way off the mark and i cannot believe your editor (maybe you dont have one, pls get one) would allow you post such polarised view. but i guss thats the right of freedom of speech. All i ask for now is some freedom of parenting. You should have balanced your article properly rather than draw a conclusion.

Parents are not the bad people in all these discussions nor are they wrong, the children they deliver to adulthood will be the final judge of that. I am always concerned with: The social welfare department with their polarised policies, teachers with their mandate to encourge children to talk about being hit at home by effectively rewarding talk with strokes of affimation that the child is doing the right thing, pschologists who practice a science that consists of so much complexity they themselves cannot ensure continued accuracy of interpretation and hide behind the complexity of the human mind…etc need regulation not parents. The confusion exists because others are allowing people to have a family and then feel they must dictate how they should raise their families. Come on really, keep your nose out of it and let people parent. Support parents and there will be a more desireable outcome rather than attempting to brand them as criminals.

God i am sick of typing - i must go and cook dinner its my turn tonight.

Bernadette says:

08:23pm | 16/04/10

Smacking! Hmm, what message are we seding our kids when we smack them?  I’ll tell what message that is, that their behaviour is unacceptable and that a smack on the backside means pull your head in and do as your told.  The kids of today that are not disciplined with a smack are the ones who will grow up (in some cases not even) and go out and ABUSE and beat up and rob and damage innocent people and property. If you want to fix a problem you need to get to the root of it and in this case it means discipline your children or you could be one of the unfortunates who get beaten up by someone else’s kid who didn’t get smacked when he/she needed it!!!

XYZ says:

02:12pm | 12/07/10

This is for biological parents only.
I threw the wooden spoon at my daughter (15years). It hit her on her thigh. She was furious and threatened to report me to police. My calm answer was: “Go ahead sweetheart, I , yes I will tell them to either remove me from you or remove you from me and give you a new home-a foster home.  Starters, they won’t even promise to love you and care for you more than dad & I do.That will be the end of your trips to macDonalds and movies when YOU want to, No more shopping and restaurants - the kind YOU like.No more overseas trips every two years. No more updated electronic games and state of the art mobile phones and certainly no food and facebook at a time when YOU are hungry for both. Think twice, its in YOUR interests to stay put and get disciplined or get the rough end of the stick. I never heard of ” reporting to cops” ever again.
All of the above is what my husband and I give our three beautiful daughters in addition to unrequited love and our TIME.

Petery says:

02:56pm | 10/04/12

just a couple of points on a very emotive issue. they are probably all wrong because I am childless, a teacher and was never hit or threatened with spoons or implements as a child ,so I probably know nothing about the real world. despite all those defects I still turned out all right.
punishment—- if you have to whack, hit someone constantly for same offense then they are not learning discipline,but you are just showing how ineffective or stupid you are. Hitting someone may make you feel good but you are clearly not getting through.Some communication apart from “take that you insolent little bastard” is required.Some parents find this too hard or time consuming but think they are doing a great job, until the problem occurs again.  So they get more angry and hit harder.These are the kind of parents that should be restrained.
Children learn from what their parents do and say, as many child abusers have learned their dubious skills from what was done to them as children.Does that mean parents who bash their children with wooden objects will have their children growing up behaving the same way to their children? Possibly.

I was teaching back in the 80s when corporal punishment was abolished in schools.The sky did not fall in as some people predicted, as from my observation corporal punishment was not that effective in the first place.

Just as most people don’t read a handbook before having sex and bearing children, most people learn how to a parent from first hand experience, so some are better than others.Perhaps if men in particular had to get a an A in parenting class before having sex, there would be many less dysfunctional families in the world and more reasoned debate in families, and less shouted obscenity and beatings. The number of out of control children may well be growing, but that is not because children who are not hit with an implement are not disciplined but because of the greater number of incompetent parents in the world.There are many of both sexes who should never have been allowed to go beyond masturbation when it came to reproduction.It is because of this that some of us who don’t have children decide to tell parents what they should be doing instead of minding our own business

Then as I said at the start I am probably not well qualified to take part in this
discussion, but I am least as well qualified as the loud mouth drunk at the
pub,boasting to his mates that he was flogged every day by his father and that the tough discipline has made him the man he is today. Unfortunately he is too drunk to notice the irony in his comments.
world.

Louise says:

02:12am | 23/04/12

There are so many other reasons as to why ‘youth today are so bad compared to the good old days’. however, some would say that it is better (some studies have shown this) though of course some would say it was worse. Rose-tinted glasses may look good to wear when you feel nostalgic, but they are still there! Think of all that has changed and maybe blame that for the ‘obvious’ decline in children’s/young peoples values.
E.g - divorce rates, accessibility to the media, use of technology, the ‘break-down of society’, the change in human rights, the change in governments across the world, attitudes (think smoking/civil rights), medical technology, technology as a whole, access to violent material…
Need I go on?
I just feel that it as a large generalisation to say that the perceived change in how children/young people behave is caused by the lack of discipline.

My personal view is that smacking is only acceptable in a VERY limited number of situations. Using an implement as a weapon is truly shocking and should not be used, it has the power to become truly dangerous, and a child’s worth should not be gambled with a perceived need to ‘make it hurt’. Life experience has taught me that