Exit International director, euthanasia advocate Dr Philip Nitschke has begun scouting locations for Australia’s first ‘euthanasia clinic’. His Adelaide visit comes as the South Australian Parliament prepared to debate new laws decriminalising assisted suicie. The Punch asked Dr Nitschke about his euthanasia clinic plans.

Please exit calmly. Dr Philip Nitschke at a euthanasia workshop in 2008. Pic: Greg Higgs

Q) What would a euthanasia clinic offer?

A) A euthanasia clinic offers the provision of coordinated services for those wishing a peaceful death. Not only providing the necessary lethal barbiturates, but also required counseling for the patient and their family, and the chance to ensure that palliative options have been properly explored and any underlying psychiatric issues uncovered.

Note that with the South Australian proposed legislation, there will be no ‘death tourism’ where people travel from other countries or states to come the clinic to die, but rather those terminally ill will die in their own homes.

Q) Why is a euthanasia clinic necessary?

A) Lessons learnt in the Northern Territory when the world’s first voluntary euthanasia legislation came into effect in 1996 showed the need for such a facility. Without the ability to coordinate support, serious problems can develop.

We saw this in Darwin - the first person who arrived in the city for help to die, Broken Hill man Max Bell who was dying of stomach cancer, had eventually to give up as he could not satisfy the necessary prerequisites and return to his home to die a few weeks later in the Broken Hill Base Hospital.

A euthanasia clinic would have avoided this unnecessary suffering. We do not want to make these same mistakes in SA.

Q) The proposed changes in SA effectively decriminalise assisted suicide – would you like to see further liberalisation of the laws?

A) Yes, decriminalisation is the first step. We saw this strategy successfully employed in Holland where decriminalisation was employed for many years before legislation was passed in 2001.

Decriminalisation will give South Australians the chance to closely watch assisted suicide in practice without doctors being exposed to serious legal risk.

Q) Critics say voluntary euthanasia would always be vulnerable to abuse by family members – do you think it is possible to completely safeguard patients’ rights?

A) It is impossible to reassure everybody; there will always be those worried that some form of abuse may occur.

But the safeguards employed do ensure that this possibility is very small. Indeed, to employ even stricter requirements will make the legislation even more difficult for those suffering and desperate for help to end their suffering to achieve their goal.

Q) If SA gets a euthanasia clinic, do you think ‘euthanasia tourism’ is a possibility?

A) I understand that there is particular sensitivity to the ’ euthanasia tourism’ issue. To avoid this, strict residential requirements will be employed so that those not resident in SA will not be able to access the new laws.

The Swiss have not done this, and people from other countries, including Australia, can take advantage of their civilised legislation. While understanding the restriction, I think it sad that other Australians will not be able to benefit from these changes to South Australian law; however, it is unlikely that a situation where other Australians are unable to participate will last.

These expected changes will put pressure on the other state parliaments to pass similar legislative changes.

191 comments

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    • John C says:

      05:07am | 29/03/11

      I think the good doctor should volunteer to be the first to use the service to show us all how it works.

    • Maginthatey says:

      06:08am | 29/03/11

      John C - Is your comment a poor attempt at humour?  It is obvious from your comment that you have never had a family member or friend die a slow and agonising death. I have had that displeasure and it is agony for all concerned.

      I’ve never understood how we ‘humanely’ put down our pets but we make Humans suffer, go figure!

    • John C says:

      07:13am | 29/03/11

      Maginthatey

      I have no problem with euthanasia and believe that a person has the right to choose death if they wish it. My problem is with Nitschke.

      And yes, I have had a family member suffer a drawn out death.

    • Gregg says:

      07:46am | 29/03/11

      @JohnC
      ” I have no problem with euthanasia and believe that a person has the right to choose death if they wish it. My problem is with Nitschke. “
      And if you put a half a brain into thinking about what you say, you might see what a hypocrit you are too.

    • John C says:

      08:11am | 29/03/11

      Hey Gregg

      Just answer me this. Does the good doctor charge for his services?

    • sol says:

      08:53am | 29/03/11

      This is the most depressing way to start the comments section. John C, back in your box.

    • Evan Findlay says:

      09:52am | 29/03/11

      John C,
      If you can’t present anything constructive to the topic then just go away. It’s people like you who derail what should be an informed and important topic.

    • Ash says:

      12:26pm | 29/03/11

      TB it is awesome that you believe in something and I wish you all the best with your version of faith. Although faith is personal so keep it to yourself. We all deserve the choice to believe in what we want.

    • True believer says:

      05:29am | 29/03/11

      @John C

      Well I cannot agree with the idea of someone suiciding, but I agree with your sentiment. He is sad little peddler of death.  It is a dangerous concept in a so-called civilized society.

    • Tedd says:

      06:42am | 29/03/11

      err Tb, idea and sentiment are the same thing.

      Humans suffering a slow agonising death, despite the best of palliative care, is a dangerous concept in a so-called civilised society.

    • True Believer says:

      07:30am | 29/03/11

      @Tedd

      People die slow agonising deaths every day across the planet - mainly children - it is called starvation.  The problem is that people in the Western World molly coddle themselves and try to avoid the things that are a daily occurrance to our fellow travellers on planet earth,

      If we are only animals as so many of you presume, the veterinary surgeons can euthanase animals so why both putting doctors, many of whom are totally against the concept, in the position of dealing out death.  Just get the vet in.

      On idea and sentiment - perhaps you are right but isn’t that nit picking??

    • Gregg says:

      07:43am | 29/03/11

      @True Believer
      And like John C you probably do not even know the man and how he feels for those that suffer.

    • Adam Diver says:

      08:07am | 29/03/11

      Does anyone see the irony in the religous being so afraid of death? At least they have some place to go, my belief system leads me to nowhere.

      If ever there is a choice that an individual should be able to make, its the choice of life and death for themselves.

    • Jay says:

      08:54am | 29/03/11

      Well you do not agree so therefore no one else is allowed to consider their options? He is offering an alternative as is currently offered in Switzerland which works well. Our so called civilized society has drugs which can treat different conditions but charge people over 500K per year to access these treatments.If you are rich then you can access nearly any treatment. If you are poor you are left to die a slow and very painful death with little or no dignity, requiring around the clock care taking up valuable resources and sucking the life out of the people around you as they watch you fade away. Somehow this offends your sensitivity? Maybe go and spend an hour at a hospice and then tell me who is uncivilized.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      10:04am | 29/03/11

      True believer Idiot, idiot, idiot, not only was that an idiot response you are a 24 carat idiot, i chose my words with restraint as I want this to be published poor starving children, what sort of comparison is that are you trying to say that suffering is noble or that it is something we have to go through. You stick to your crackpot sky fairy beliefs and dont impose them on others, no one is asking you to be euthanised it is about a choice, if I chose to then it is no buiness of yours or your other crackpot believers.We are only animals we have just evolved to a point where we are a little more intelligent thean the rest. Or did we magically appear 5000 years ago out of a rib. I have read some truly unbelievable comments from nutters on this site but that one is nearly the winner comapring starving children to people suffering from debilataing or terminal diseases, just goes to show the lack of compassion in some parts of society and if anything reaffirms my belief that there is no such thing as an omnipresent supernatural dictator, because if there was he wouldnt allow grubs like yourself to exist.

    • True Believer says:

      10:45am | 29/03/11

      @Gregg

      I have probably seen more suffering in my professional and personal life than you will ever see. Murder/syuicide under the euphemism of “euthanasia” is not the answer.


      @adam the diver

      I don’t know to whom you are referring using the term “religious” - I am a Christian, I am not religious.  Death holds no fear for me, I know where I am going after it and to Whom. Do you have that assurance? Life is a gift, it is not ours to take, regardless of the circumstances.

      @Jay

      Wherever murder/assisted suicide has been legislated for it has brought with it large numbers of involuntary deaths.  Look up the research. Ethically it is a very dangerous concept.

      @Sir Ronald Bradnam

      I would rather be an idiot who knows their Creator and who has salvation than one who is idiot enough to think they are just an animal.

      As I said in my post - if people regard themselves as animals why ask doctors who take an oath “to do no harm” to put them down, just go to the local vet. They can legally euthanase animals now.  Trouble is with your kind of idiot you want to proclaim you are an animal and yet expect to have the services of something higher. Doesn’t that make you a hypocrite?  :0)  You can’t have it both ways. I know I have a Creator and I know Him and the love He has for His creation. I also know the destroyer.  It is you who live in an imaginary world my friend not me.

    • notSue says:

      11:32am | 29/03/11

      @Jay, sorry but you’re just wong about the poor being left to die with no dignity in this country. Public hospices/palliative care units do exist which are Medicare funded and believe me, they are very civilised and paradoxically, often happy places, in the main. I should know, I worked in one for a long time.

      My main concern about euthansia laws is that people who wish to access palliative care may be talked into suicide before they are actually ready to die, feeling that it’s kinder on their relatives and cheaper on the system. Believe me, it’s their family’s suffering that is often uppermost in the dying person’s mind (once they are adequately symptom-controlled) and they often end up comforting relatives. Nitscke’s clinic will be in danger of short-changing people of the experience of the journey of dying, once they are no longer in a curative setting.

      Don’t misunderstand me, I believe strongly that folk should be able to access assistance to die if they’re suffering is intractable. I just hope that they truly know their options and don’t feel coerced.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      11:39am | 29/03/11

      true believer, you confuse belief with fact, here is a challenge I have issued dozens of times but the sky fairy believers chose to spin and ignore. Show me one physical piece of evidence of the existance of a supernatural dictator and i will convert to being a true believer immediately, has to be physical evidence not a belief.
      I dont expect the services of something higher as there is nothing higher, no tooth fairy, no santa, no allah, no god, no such thing as sky fairies who live in the clouds or a horned moster who lives in the ground.
      There is only one who lives in an imaginery world TB and it isnt me.

    • Gregg says:

      12:17pm | 29/03/11

      @notSue
      ” Nitscke’s clinic “
      And where is that to be!
      The guy runs courses on how people may best help themselves because there is not legislation that will allow them to be helped by others.
      He is certainly not twisting anybody’s arm.

    • True Believer says:

      12:29pm | 29/03/11

      @Sir Ronald Bradnam

      Look around you - the evidence is there for anyone with eyes to see.  The world and yourself are amazingly made. Can this be the result of a “big bang” - you show me once where order was created out chaos. It is totally illogical.

      If you want to know Jesus, ask - “you have not because you ask not” - but do not ask in a flippant or smart way because He is not at our beck and call.

      You see I can contradict you about who lives in the “imaginery world” as you put it.  I once was in the fairy land of atheism where you are now.  No hope, no joy, no assurance for eternity, to me the Lord did not exist. 

      Then I found out differently and I am ever so glad I did.  To know the Lord is real life my friend. Get with the strength - ask and you will receive. I don’t believe - I know. You can too if you humble yourself and seek Him.  You will not be disappointed I can assure you. :0)

      By the way, you can show me zero evidence that the Living God does not exist, so don’t try putting the onus onto me. Tis a atheistic ploy, reeks of insecurity.

    • notSue says:

      12:37pm | 29/03/11

      @ Gregg. Did you read the article?? because his proposed *clinic* is what it’s about!

      I suggest you also read what I wrote (about propsed changes to the law), rather than what you* think* I wrote.

    • Grumpy Oldman says:

      12:38pm | 29/03/11

      What a stupid comment from someone who doesn’t know Philip Nitschke - he was my GP in Darwin, and a thoroughly decent man whose motivation is equally decent. He is a doctor sick of the sight of watching people die horrible deaths. As for our so-called civilised society - Australia is one of the most uncivilised and uneducated societies in the Western world, perhaps behind only the US, and if we continue to emulate those born again fools there is no hope for us. We all have to die some time, but it doesn’t have to be as disgustingly unpleasant as it is for so many. We are adults, trust us to make responsible decisions in regard to our own demise.

    • True Believer says:

      12:57pm | 29/03/11

      @Grumpy Old Man

      You think we are uncivilized?  Well now that is interesting.  According to advocates of “euthanasia” (murder/suicide) they are just animals so how could one expect creatures bereft of any higher calling to achieve the best they can?

      Vets can euthanase animals - why do we have to bother doctors who are there to heal, not to kill. (Nitschke excepted).

      Man without God has made a bit of a mess of the planet if you look around you.  Then what can you expect from mere animals?

    • Grumpy Oldman says:

      01:10pm | 29/03/11

      I really shouldn’t have wasted my time with a considered response - like all of your religious loonie ilk, you are a freak, and a mentally unbalanced freak judging by a few of the things you said. Join us in the real world, Tb, and you may understand what this debate is all about.

    • Grumpy Oldman says:

      01:24pm | 29/03/11

      Oh, I’ve just got to reply again to this idiot. So typical of a loser to twist an argument - like, advocates of euthanasia say animals receive better treatment than human beings, therefore human beings who support euthanasia are animals. And man without God has made a mess of the planet? Look around you, fool, at the conflict caused in the name of God since God was first invented, and which continues today - the basic argument being my God’s better than your God, so you should be exterminated. Of course there’s a God, Jb, for want of a better word - this extraordinary universe, the beauty all around us, the way it all fits together so perfectly, didn’t just happen. But it’s nothing to do with a God you invented, and nothing to do with any religion followed by weak mortals. If you can’t see that, if you really think you are in touch with God, if you really believe you know something the rest of us don’t know, if you really believe that you as a Christian lunatic are superior to some other religious lunatic who happens to be Muslim, then Jb, you are seriously ill, and you should be sectioned. Shame we can’t take it further than that, but with euthanasia laws being what they are ....

    • mel says:

      02:30pm | 29/03/11

      True Believer: You say you are Christian but “not religious”. I’ve read similar statements from other christians and I’m having trouble understanding exactly what this means. Is it that you’re a bit slack when it comes to following christian tenets and ideals? You were baptised a christian and now you don’t really care? What’s the difference between a christian who isn’t religious and a christian who is?

    • Wynston Cruso says:

      02:55pm | 29/03/11

      @ TB “People die slow agonising deaths every day across the planet - mainly children - it is called starvation.”

      Why does your loving god not prevent this or at least lend assistance? Is it because he’s too busy giving aids to babies in Africa and causing tsunami’s in Japan?

    • True Believer says:

      06:14pm | 29/03/11

      @Grumpy Old Man

      Goodness me - I tell you what I know and you deliver a pseudo psychiatric diagnosis - I suspect you have no qualifications to do that. So really just your il-informed opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

      You sais “so you should be exterminated”  - now that is a bit extreme isn’t it? Seems a fellow named Hitler had that idea about Jews. Do you really subscribe to that mentality?  That is most definitely idiotic.

      You really have not the slightest idea about the Lord - no wonder you call yourself “Grumpy Old Man” - having such hatred about your Creator and fellow travellers on Planet Earth who happen to be more spiritually aware than you are would make you a sad individual indeed.  There are services out there that could help you achieve some equilibrium.

      Your tirade is unwarranted, erroneous, just downright ignorant and rude.

      @Mel

      A fair question. No it is not about being baptised with water by a man, I did have that as a child, but that did not make me a Christian. 

      I came out of the darkness of unbelief and into the true light of Jesus by repentance and asking Him to be my Lord and Saviour.  There was not a denominational building, a pastor, minister whatever in sight. His love and forgiveness is there for anyone prepared to admit they are a sinner and who repents.

      I was born-again by the power of God through His Holy Spirit.  He invited, I accepted. Then my spirit became alive to the Lord. Before that it was dead within me, as it is with all those who live in unbelief. It is a mystery and a miracle and there for anyone with the humility to seek Jesus and His Forgiveness and Love.

      Religion is a word bandied around in here without thought.  Most religion is made by man.  Even the rituals, denominational divisions, rules and exclusivity in some denominations are made by man not God. 

      Only Jesus decides who is a Christian. People may belong to a denomination, but they do not necessarily belong to, or know, Jesus. Many know about Him and are faithful within the constraints of their denomination. 

      The Lord is not captive to any particular denomination. To me the Church is the body of Christ, those who truly believe and follow Him, regardless of denominations. That is the Christian Church.  The rest to me is “religion.”  Hope that helps.

      @ Wynston Cruso

      I find it interesting how atheists deny God on one hand and yet blame Him for all the world’s ills.  Surely a contradictory stance??

      God does not cause children to starve. The reality is that the Western World consumes and wastes much more than their share of food.  Aids is passed on in the main by men and women’s abuse of sex. 

      Mind you, if you knew the Lord, you would also know the evil one who currently rules the world as Jesus said he would, but only for a time. He is the father of lies, evil and destruction. You are being conned into thinking he does not exist.

    • Mel says:

      08:31pm | 29/03/11

      TB, it seems a little disingenuous to say that you are a christian but not religious. Most would regard someone who puts a supernatural being and follows whatever precepts they glean from any sacred writings at the forefront of their lives as religious. (Indeed doesn’t the dictionary define the word as that? Mine does.) What do you find objectionable about being religious?

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      06:40am | 30/03/11

      True believer it scares me that there are you and your sanctimonious ilk who walk this earth, ‘know for a fact ’ that there is a sky fairy who evrsees our life like a giant north korean dictating puppetmaster without a shred of evidence except your belief.
      As predicted you tried the age old spin used by blinded believers, look around did we really evolve from a big bang and pond scum, well yes we did and then the real good one, its is up to aetheists to prove there isnt a god, oyu idiot I am not the one claiming an existance, why would an almighty dictator hide his presence?

    • True Believer says:

      08:07am | 30/03/11

      @Sir Ronald Bradnam

      Goodness me you scare easy. 

      My friend,  if you are happy to consider you are the result of pond scum and a big accident by all means continue on with that fairy story.  I know I am not and I will stick with the Truth.

      You said - “its is up to aetheists to prove there isnt a god, oyu idiot I am not the one claiming an existance, why would an almighty dictator hide his presence?”

      Well when you atheists have “proven” there isn’t a God – get back to me, until then your “fairy story” is just that. There is no way or anyone else can “prove” He is not there because He was, is and always will be. But you stick with your fantasies if that makes you content.

      God is not a dictator – He has given us freedom of choice and free will, we can work with Him or deny Him.  If we do the latter we miss out on what His love, forgiveness, hope, comfort, peace, joy and eternal salvation.  It is our choice.

      He does not hide Himself – Jesus said “I stand at the door and knock” – anyone who opens their heart to Him can and will know Him. It takes repentance, humility and a willingness to have Him as our Lord and Saviour. You choose to keep the door shut in His face so of course He remains hidden to you, but that is only because you choose to shut Him out of your life and take second best. I respect your right to do that. I just tell you there is more.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      09:49am | 30/03/11

      true believer I dont scare easily contrary to your belief, evolution is a fact and can be proven, a magical sky wizrd waiving a magic wand and creating the universe is utter rubbish to sensible, rational and the the vast majority of people.
      Please explain to me how it is possible to prove that something doesnt exist if you cant see that then there is nothing I can do to show you the light.

    • True Believer says:

      05:55pm | 30/03/11

      Sir Ronald Bradnam

      You seem incapable of replying without rudeness and gutter talk so I am not longer going to respond to you.

    • Mark Topping says:

      10:08am | 31/03/11

      Sir Ronald Bradman,

      Is evolution a fact? Can you flesh this out for me?

      Say i believe that humans evolved over millioins of years. How is this verifiable from scientific data? Does not the whole evolution argument actually step beyond the realms of science into the philospohical/theological categories? Isn’t this the major critique of Dawkins and co who embarrass the general atheistic/evolutionist community by their blatant misuse of science which they fight to uphold?

      BTW, any thinking Christian readily admits that we cannot prove God exists any more than you can prove he doesn’t, it comes down to probability really i would think. Now of course, evolution is often pitted against the idea of a God, yet the folly in the argument is that evolution pre-supposes something exists to hence evolve. Once we trace that argument back to an original cause we generally have 3 options. 1. There is eternal matter that continues to evolve, 2. Something was created out of nothing, or 3. God is eternal and thus created.

      Obviously 3 is my pick. 2 is illogical and irrational. 1, well i guess you would have to be a believer in anything other than God to accept that.

      My assumption is that most atheists pick 2. Now if believing in God is irrational what shall we say for those who believe in 2? Hardly a logical position for those so intent on claiming rationality and wisdom.

      Blessings

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      12:35pm | 31/03/11

      TB cant say that I have been rude just debating and opinning.
      Top post Topping you would have to admit that your number 1. is far more logical than number 3. a great sky fairy waved his majic wand and the universe was created, your right i dont have all the answers but I do have rational logic. Sure there are gaps in Darwins theory of evolution but just because there are gaps doesnt mean an almighty sky wizard created something from nothing. As you readily admit it is impossible for any christian to prove that there is a god so it just comes back to a belief, I dont believe, so what does it make me a bad person does it make me evil, or a second class citizen, no it doesnt yet you and your ilk and other fanatics believe that I am destined to eternal damnation because I wont get down and kiss the arse of something that you chose to believe in but cant prove exists. No thanks not for me, I will continue to do work in the community and to be the best person I can be and treat others the way I would like to be treated. BTW is evolution a fact, more likely than a supernatural dictator smashing rocks with his fists to create the universe, rational logic my friend.

    • Mark Topping says:

      01:59pm | 31/03/11

      Thanks for the reply SRB (hope you don’t mind the abbreviation, it’s easier),

      There is much to say regarding what you have shared. First, i’m glad you’ve backed down from ‘evolution is a fact’ to ‘is evolution a fact, more likely’. It’s easier to dialogue once people give up their rhetorical ambitions.

      Indeed Darwin’s theory does have many gaps, but my question to you then becomes why believe and promote something that cannot be scientifically verified? It seems as if you usurp your own footing. You want proof for the existence of God, yet despite not having proof for Darwins theory (at least not verifiable proof) you continue to believe and preach that. The very claims levelled against myself and others (blind faith) is in fact the same position you yourself hold.

      I don’t believe your a bad person, how can i, i don’t know you. Yet, your moral high ground ‘treat others the way i would like to be treated’ is of course the morality Jesus taught and what Christianity teaches, ‘love your neighbour as you do yourself’. So not only do you have blind, un-verified faith in Darwinian evolution but your morality is in fact based on Christian doctrine. Can you see the problems?

      I’m not quite sure why 1 is more logical than 3. Can you elaborate?
      The reasons i believe 3 to be most probable is numerous. I’ll cite just one fact. Jesus walked this earth 2000 years ago. This same Jesus made some radical claims. At current we have recovered over 26, 000 New Testament manuscripts, 5000 of which are in the original Koine Greek language. We have both Jewish and Roman historians from the first century who attest to Jesus as a factual historical figure. Compare this then to say someone like Julius Ceasar. Are you aware how many ancient documents mention him? Less than 10 i think it is. Now of course, no one rejects that Julius Ceasar is a true historical figure, yet many reject Jesus and actually try to dispute he actually existed. Seems hard to accept that these are the rational people in the world, especially since they demand so much proof.

      Now this doesn’t prove God exists per se, i readily admit that. But it does prove historically that Jesus existed. The question then for us is whether what he said is true. As C.S Lewis saids, Jesus is either ‘Liar, Lunatic, or Lord’. They are the only options.

      Let me just finish by quoting you,  ‘i dont have all the answers but I do have rational logic.’. Use it well SRB, because at the moment you look anything other than rational or logical.
      Blessings

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      02:36pm | 31/03/11

      Topping this is the last response as with all fanatics whether they believe in buddha, barney the dinosaur, purple sky monster, god, or that they are going to get to bang 70 virgins when they imolate themselves, your belief cant be swayed and that is your right.
      I bo believe in evolution as it is far more rational than any other option.

      Indeed Darwin’s theory does have many gaps, but my question to you then becomes why believe and promote something that cannot be scientifically verified?
      This statement of yours says it all really doesnt it, I didnt realise god could be scientifically verified.

    • Stu says:

      02:43pm | 31/03/11

      @ Mark Topping: “We have both Jewish and Roman historians from the first century who attest to Jesus as a factual historical figure.”
      To which historians are you referring?

    • Mark Topping says:

      03:23pm | 31/03/11

      Stu,

      The Jewish historian is Josephus, born AD 37. He worte 4 works, all completed by the end of the first century. In one of his works, ‘The Antiquities’ Josephus mentions James, the brother of Jesus and Jesus himself,

      “He convened a meeting in the Sanhedirn and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus, who was called the Christ, and certain others. He accused them of having transgressed the law and delivered them up to be stoned.”

      In another work, Testimonium Flavianum, Jospehus saids even more about Jesus, it’s a lengthy quote so i won’t put it here, but it’s there to be looked up easily. To quote Dr Edwin Yamauchi, “Josephus corroborates important information about Jesus, that he was the martyred leader of the church in Jerusalem and that he was a wise teacher who had established a wide and lasting following, despite the fact that he had been crucified under Pilate at the institgation of some of the Jewish leaders.

      The Roman historian is Tacitus who wrote,
      “Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had it’s origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius as the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate…”

      It goes on, but again is lengthy.
      These two historians record the events of the New Testament and corroborate them.

    • Mark Topping says:

      03:36pm | 31/03/11

      SRB,

      Thanks for the chat. Let me finish by saying a few things. You stated,

      “This statement of yours says it all really doesnt it, I didnt realise god could be scientifically verified. “

      That’s the old bait and switch. I admitted up front that i cannot prove God exists for you, yet for you to believe you demand such proof. As my points showed, your own position fails the very test you demand, scientific verification. To put it bluntly, it’s hypocrisy.

      Blessings

    • Stu says:

      03:57pm | 31/03/11

      @ Mark Topping: Historical evidence consists of artefacts, self-written manuscripts, contemporary records and eyewitness accounts. Anything else is hearsay and not evidence of fact. Both Joesphus and Tacitus were born after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus. Because they wrote about early Christians and their beliefs is not evidence of the existence of a historical Jesus. The fact is there is not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus.

    • Mark Topping says:

      05:50pm | 31/03/11

      Hi Stu,

      C’mon mate, your clutching at straws now. Serious historians wouldn’t come to such a flippant view such as you. If we accept your model of history we would know nothing about our past in any discipline.

      BTW look up the second Josephus reference. It’s not simply about early Christians and there beliefs, but the very foundational things of Jesus life, e.g crucifixtion. This all from a non-Christian first century historian. The facts are clearly there mate, even sensible atheists realise such things.

    • Stu says:

      06:28pm | 31/03/11

      @ Mark Topping: It’s not my model of historical scholarship - and I challenge you to give me an example of a serious historian who would say that you could establish a historical fact with zero contemporary evidence. You suggest above that the evidence for the biblical Jesus is equal to that of Julius Caesar. I can provide you with eyewitness accounts and artifacts and contemporary images of Caesar. You can’t do the same for the other JC. I note your appeals like “c’mon mate” and emotive words like “flippant” and “sensible” and I also challenge you to identify which straws I’m clutching at.

      C’mon mate, your clutching at straws now. Serious historians wouldn’t come to such a flippant view such as you. If we accept your model of history we would know nothing about our past in any discipline.

      BTW look up the second Josephus reference. It’s not simply about early Christians and there beliefs, but the very foundational things of Jesus life, e.g crucifixtion. This all from a non-Christian first century historian. The facts are clearly there mate, even sensible atheists realise such things.

    • Mark Topping says:

      08:50pm | 31/03/11

      Stu,

      Maybe you need to define some words
      By contemporary you mean…?
      By eyewitness accounts you mean…?

    • Stu says:

      08:22am | 01/04/11

      @Mark Topping: The following definitions and usages come from the Oxford English Dictionary:
      Contemporary: living or occurring at the same time: “the event was recorded by a contemporary historian”.
      Eyewitness: a person who has seen something happen and can give a first-hand description of it: “my grandmother gave me an eyewitness account of the London blitz”

    • Mark Topping says:

      07:51am | 02/04/11

      Stu,

      Thanks for that, it’s helpful. Now contemporary you say means living or occurring at the same time. Now of course Josephus was indeed living and occurring at the same time as the apostles and other first hand eyewitnesses to the event.

      As for eyewitnesses, well the bulk of the NT is written by those eyewitnesses to the direct events of Jesus. Even the most liberal of scholars recognise at least several of the Pauline epistles as authentic. So contrary to your claim, we have significant eyewitness and contemporary evidence (not to mention the archeological evidence which corroborates with the NT data).

      I recommend you extend your reading beyond the typical polemical websites against Christians.

      Blessings

    • Stu says:

      10:15am | 02/04/11

      @ Mark Topping: “Now of course Josephus was indeed living and occurring at the same time as the apostles and other first hand eyewitnesses to the event.” For you to establish that Jesus existed as a historical fact either the apostles or Josephus himself would have had to recorded having met Jesus.

      “As for eyewitnesses, well the bulk of the NT is written by those eyewitnesses to the direct events of Jesus.” No credible scholar would accept this statement to be true and even some Christian apologists accept this to be true. As for your statement about polemics against Christians - I have nothing against Christians or against people of any religion. But if people are going to state that “Jesus existed as a historical fact” or “I know God exists”, or ask me for proof that God doesn’t exist it is reasonable to take them to task. Here is a telling fact: there is no evidence that any contemporary of the biblical Jesus ever wrote anything about him.

    • Mark Topping says:

      07:56am | 03/04/11

      Stu,

      You begin by stating, “For you to establish that Jesus existed as a historical fact either the apostles or Josephus himself would have had to recorded having met Jesus.. Yet i wrote, “the bulk of the NT is written by those eyewitnesses to the direct events of Jesus.” To which you reply, “No credible scholar would accept this statement to be true and even some Christian apologists accept this to be true”.

      To which i respond, who are the “credible scholars”? I clearly stated that even the most liberal scholars accept several of Paul’s letters as authentic. You show no evidence to dispute this. You simply assume and reject the NT evidence itself.  And contrary to your claim, there are many scholars who accept them. These claims have been levelled against the Bible for as long as the Bible itself has existed, they are not new and so again i repeat that you look beyond the typical polemical websites.

      You finished by asserting the same claim that there is no contemporary evidence. Simply asserting the same things does not substitute as proof. I have given you biblical evidence, historical evidence, scholarly evidence and briefly mentioned archaeological evidence. All you have done is dismissed them because of so called un-named ‘credible scholars’. The weight of evidence is far greater than what you are suggesting, 5000 greek manuscripts to begin with. I challenge you to produce any historical figure with as much historical evidence as what we have for Jesus. For example, what about Plato?/ Aristotle? At least be consistent in your historical criticism.

      Blessings

    • Stu says:

      08:51am | 04/04/11

      @ Mark Topping: You began this discussion by asserting that because Josephus wrote about Jesus, that it gave weight as evidence that Jesus existed as a historical fact. I responded that Josephus couldn’t have had first hand knowlege of Jesus because he was born after Jesus is said to have died. I also explained that for something to be a historical fact we need this first hand knowledge. Do we agree, then, that the writings of Josephus cannot serve a evidence for the existence of Jesus? If you you do agree, I’m happy to deal with Paul’s epistles, other NT sources, archaeological evdience, polemic source material, and evidence for other ancient historical figures. If you don’t accept this then I’m wasting my time, as no argument or evidence (or lack of evidence) is going to sway you from the belief that the existence of Jesus is a historical fact.

    • Mark Topping says:

      12:52pm | 04/04/11

      Stu,

      We probably are wasting our time then, because i think that the writing of Josephus do a great deal in supporting the historicity of Jesus. If we can’t move beyond this, then we probably best stop. Thanks for the chat though.

    • Stu says:

      02:19pm | 04/04/11

      @ Mark Topping: Cheers, mate, I appreciate the honesty. Been good debating with you.

    • Jovo says:

      05:59am | 29/03/11

      I have always believed that I am the only one responsible for my happiness, and the quality of my life. When my life is so affected by a terminal disease which is not only terribly painful, but deprives me of all human dignity, then it’s time to go at my own choosing. I witnessed a good mate die of cancer and never want my love ones to see me in this state or suffer what he did…..he begged me and his mother to ask the nurses to OD him on morphine…we could not, we would be breaking the law and end up in jail, at best our lives ruined. We just prolonged his agony with more drugs, and the inevitable for weeks because of the law….it is a guilt I will carry for the rest of my life.
      Curse those politicians (mostly religious) that continually hinder all progress euthanasia. If there is an issue I feel passionate about it is this one, it determines my voting direction. No one has the right to tell me when I can die. I can end my life at any time I wish, it belongs to me. My word, my name and my life are the only things I really own. For a politician to believe he or she speaks on my behalf by depriving me of these rights especially when I am already dying of a slow death in excruciating agony defies logic or humanity.  These people should be held accountable the same way as war criminals. They are actively assisting to extend untold human suffering. I wonder how righteous they will feel when they find themselves in the same situation as my friend, and begging to be released from the same cruelty…. 
      Thank you Dr Philip Nitschke you are a man of great conviction, I hope you live long enough to see your plans concluded, where any Australian can (under strict controls) have the right to euthanasia, where politicians stop representing their religious beliefs and start representing the rational community.

    • michael j says:

      06:48am | 29/03/11

      @Jovo right with on this one ,anyone who thinks the magic morphine puts
      puts you into a wonderful dream is sadly mislead,and i did ask a nurse if they could turn up the morphine for my father 25 years ago,she shook her head and said ‘sorry’,,,,,,

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      07:44am | 29/03/11

      thank you jovo for a well thought out response. The sooner our elected politicians who believe in sky fairies put their fairy tale beliefs behind them and start making rational decisions based on facts instead of the info they personally recieve from the man in the clouds that no one has ever seen the better.
      The decisions that are made are more to do with control and power over a conpliant population and making them live by the personal beliefs and morals of the elected individual rather than a rational decision that allows an individual freedom of choice over his personal decisions that are not illegal or effect no other person. It is a blight on society that we allow this to continue. i for one know that if I am ever in that situation no politician or law will stop me from ending my suffering when i feel the need to is my choice not societies or any other individuals choice to make for me.

    • Minay26 says:

      07:48am | 29/03/11

      @Jovo
      I agree with most of what you have siad. I have a problem with one sentence: “.... those politicians (mostly religious)...”
      I don’t believe that to be true… also - religion is a big word, make sure you know what it means… anyway - not the point.
      My following of this issue in Australia has been quite extensive (research for a paper) and most of the politicians that are against euthanasia are actually those who are NOT church going. There might be one or two that like the limelight and cry “Bible”. I find it so frustrating that people are blaming the “religious” people for not supporting this. Such crap! There are not that many “religious” pollies out there anyway. Some claim to be, but trust me, they are not.
      So, instead, the idea of this must change. The idea of what euthanasia is. Because, most believe that once this will be allowed, Drs and families will just kill off the sick and weak. which is crap.
      Anyway - I just wanted to say, some of the so called “religious” pollies, actually support this. . .

    • Aaron says:

      08:09am | 29/03/11

      Perfectly put Jovo, thank you.
      @John C & TB, your arrogance and naivety are staggering and shameful, i’m glad your not part of my family!

    • scubasteve says:

      08:14am | 29/03/11

      No-one wants to die an agonising death.
      The problem here is that you want the nurses or other medical staff to ‘top’ you.  Why would they want to be responsible for your murder?
      If you want to go early - then sort it out yourself.  Put a little thought into how you might want to go.

    • Jay says:

      08:56am | 29/03/11

      Well said Jovo.(tears in my eyes)

    • True Believer says:

      11:23am | 29/03/11

      @aaron
      That is you opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

      Hitler used euthanasia - for disabled, mentally ill etc etc - yes they called it “euthanasia. The Nazis were good at using dumbed down language to hide what they were really doing. Same thing now, if it was named as it really is murder or suicide - would the avocated be so vocal??  Stop hiding behind neutralised language. Taking of human life is murder or suicide - cannot be dressed up to sound like something nice.

      Thinking intelligent people who also know the true value of human life would never advocate such a thing. 

      I am not arrogant and I can assure you I am not naive. Perhaps you should look in the mirror. Take care.

    • Ash says:

      12:43pm | 29/03/11

      TB you need to think about what your writing. You go off at aaron for expressing his opinion and then you express yours violently. What gives you the right to do that?
      Do yourself a favour and look up ‘suicide’ and ‘murder’ in the dictionary. You are one scary individual!
      @jovo you brought me to tears, thank you for your story

    • Syl says:

      02:13pm | 29/03/11

      True Believer

      “Thinking intelligent people who also know the true value of human life would never advocate such a thing.  “

      In general thinking intelligent people do not believe in fairy tales, and if they do, certainly do not claim to know the “true meaning of a human life”.

      You come to these articles preaching faith and tolerance while spewing hate and contempt for anyone who disagrees.  You carry on about how people should respect your opinion and belief while continually belittling and disrespecting anyone who questions you.

      I was raised a christian, and I was a fairly strong believer too.  But even then I wouldn’t have treated those who thought differently with such amazing arrogance as you do.

      Now that I am older and can see through the bullshit I came to realise that Religion is a joke played on normal people by those higher up to keep control.  If you want to believe thats fine, it’s your right and I would never try to take that away.  But try to put your points forward with a little more goddamn humility for once.

      I respect human life greatly, having suffered for both a life threatening heart disease when I was 18 and sever spinal cord damage at age 27.  I have seen friends and close relative die horribly painful deaths. One in particular who suffered from stomach cancer spent the last 6 months of his life with continually reproducing ulcers in his mouth so he couldn’t speak or eat.  It saddens me to think that if he decided to have his life ended by his own terms, people like you would try to deny him this right and dignity, instead condenming him to a slow painful death.  Just so they can sleep well and healthy at night.

      Oh btw, Christianity is a religion.  If you are Christian you are religious.  To argue against this is, well, stupid.

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      02:22pm | 29/03/11

      @scubasteve

      I accept your point about requesting medical staff, who due to their own beliefs, would find the administering a fatal dose difficult. Such an issue is procedural though - if the legislation allowed medical staff to exclude themselves on the grounds of conscience or belief, it would not be an issue.

      As for people ‘sorting it out themsleves’, I think Dark Horse at 07:03am demonstrates how poorly that can work out.

    • Elphaba says:

      02:23pm | 29/03/11

      @Syl, well put, wasting you time.  Ignore the troll.

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      02:50pm | 29/03/11

      I think I just became a Syl Believer. Nicely said.

    • Syl says:

      03:00pm | 29/03/11

      I know Elphaba, sometimes you just gotta vent the frustration at such blatant hypocrisy, you know?

      I’m not expecting a meaningful reply, just something about Him and He and how I’m ignorant and close minded.  And maybe how TB is super humble and understanding, like way more than any non-believer.  The usual rant.

    • Elphaba says:

      03:17pm | 29/03/11

      @Syl, I get your frustration.  I just don’t like seeing good people getting abused because they’re different.

      Great post though.  Seriously - hit it out of the park. grin

    • Jane says:

      03:30pm | 29/03/11

      Thankyou Jovo. I saw my grandfather tied to the bed for his final 2 weeks of life to pervent him, a person completely parralised except for one hand, from pulling out his feeding tubes and speeding up his exit. If someone is that determined to die and have no chance of recovery, they should be permitted to do so with dignity.

      My grandmother on the other side in her final year often said “If I was a dog, I would have been put down by now” and its true, we would not make a pet live with the level of pain we make our sick with live. We would be up on cruelty charges if we did.

    • True Believer says:

      08:20pm | 29/03/11

      @Ashley Thank you for your comment, but I think you will find if you do some research that the killing Hitler instigated of the mentally ill and intellectually disabled was considered to be euthanasia.

      The site below states:

      “At the beginning of World War II the Nazi regime began killing individuals with physical disabilities, people who were mentally retarded, and the terminally ill. The killings were called ‘euthanasia’, i.e. ‘mercy killings’.

      According to the Nazi policy of racial hygiene, people with physical and mental disabilities were “useless” in German society, and they were a threat against the Aryan purity. They were deemed unworthy to live.

      The so-called Euthanasia Programme (‘Operation T4’) cost approximately 270,000 people their life.”
      http://www.holocaust-education.dk/baggrund/eutanasi.asp

      and
      http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-euthanasia.htm
      and
      “Euthanasia, otherwise known as “mercy killings”, is the terminating of ones’ life because of an illness; and if this person was not able to make the decision for themselves, the decision was done by a relative. When the Nazis got hold of euthanasia, they turned the meaning into the “destruction of worthless life.” If they did not see you fit, or of use to them, they would terminate you. The idea of the “destruction of worthless life” did not first come from Hitler and his Nazi party, it came from a man named Professor Karl Binding. He wrote his views and ideas in his book entitled Permission for the Destruction of Worthless Life, Its Extent and Form, which was published around the 1920’s. In his book, he writes about ‘living burdens’, that translates into German as Ballastexistenzen. According to Binding three certain groups should be killed. The first group being those who had eventually painful terminating illnesses. The second group was the “incurable lunatics”, in other words, those in mental institutions, because of the fact that they were too expensive to take care of. Finally, the last group of people were those through certain circumstances lose their “consciousness” (Binding).”
      http://cghs.dadeschools.net/holocaust/euthenasia.htm

      There are many more including one about the nurses who carried out the “euthanasia” (murder) for Hitler who thought they were doing a worthy thing putting these people “out of their misery” - sound familiar.

    • Syl says:

      08:41pm | 29/03/11

      TB

      “When the Nazis got hold of euthanasia, they turned the meaning into the “destruction of worthless life.” If they did not see you fit, or of use to them, they would terminate you.”

      Right, so that’s not what we are talking about here.  We are talking about the true meaning of Euthanasia, not what what the Nazis twisted it into. (which isn’t Euthanasia at all, just because they called it that doesn’t suddenly change the word’s meaning ffs)

      What exactly is your point?

    • True Believer says:

      07:27am | 30/03/11

      @Syl

      My point is when we call something to soften its meaning it can and does lead to abuse. Just as the modern euthanasia has been in enabling involuntary deaths where it has been legalised. Let us call it murder or suicide, not neutralise the language to make it more palatable for the populus.

    • True Believer says:

      08:15am | 30/03/11

      @Elphaba

      Your opinion of me matters not one iota.

      You wish to deny God - your God-given right.  I also have a right to present what I know to be the Truth - if the Truth offends you then I think you have some soul-searching to do. 

      Please do not reply because you seem incapable of being civil to or about me, you must reserve that for those who like you prefer to have their heads in the sand I guess. 

      I am not a troll - I am a Christian. Nothing special of myself, just know the Lord - you could too.

    • Syl says:

      08:21am | 30/03/11

      TB

      Except that it’s not murder or suicide.  Not to everyone, so you can’t just claim that it is and expect everyone to nod their heads and agree with you.

    • True Believer says:

      09:26am | 30/03/11

      @Syl
      You said
      “Except that it’s not murder or suicide.  Not to everyone, so you can’t just claim that it is and expect everyone to nod their heads and agree with you.”

      Here are the dictionary results:

      “suicide - the act of killing yourself intentionally”

      “murder - the crime of intentionally killing a person”

      “euthanasia - the act of killing someone who is very ill or very old so that they do not suffer any more”
      The above from the Cambridge Oxford Dictionary Online.

      Now what is the difference. It is all about killing a human being, whether oneself or another. Fits together for me.

    • True Believer says:

      09:55am | 30/03/11

      @Syl

      Murder - intentional killing of a human being
      Suicide - sometimes defined as self-murder. Intentional taking of one’s life.
      Euthanasia - Intentional taking of one’s own or another’s life or the assitance to do thereof.

      Can you explain the difference?????

    • True Believer says:

      10:04am | 30/03/11

      Sir Ronald Bradman

      You could have fooled me - you are the one who said I was “one scary person.” Guess you do not mean what you say - thought of going into politics?? :0)

      You can rant and rave all you like - God is there, He was there before you, He will be there after you - you will meet Him. I can assure you of that. I urge you to climb down off your ego and do some serious soul-searching.  Your taunts and insults make no impact on Him, nor on me, you only harm yourself if only you had eyes to see that. Your choice my friend.

    • Syl says:

      10:18am | 30/03/11

      TB

      Please, don’t pick parts of definitions that suit your purpose and leave parts out that don’t, someone will always check your facts.

      mur·der
      ? ?/?m?rd?r/ Show Spelled[mur-der] Show IPA
      –noun
      1.
      Law . the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder),  and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

      Murder is determined by law, it is not just killing someone in general.  If a law is passed legalising Euthanasia it is, by definition, not murder.

      It is not suicide as you are not taking your own life, you are giving somebody else permission to do so (you wanna be pedantic about definitions).  Even if it was suicide, who are you to tell someone they are not allowed to take their own life, it is not your responsibility to determine that.

    • True Believer says:

      10:42am | 30/03/11

      @Syl

      Have it your way friend - a death caused by a human being whether suicide, murder or your soft term “euthanasia” - all amount to the same thing - a corpse. It is not a natural death but comes at the hand of woman/man. You split hairs.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      11:43am | 30/03/11

      syl it is impossible to deal with the irrational for example nobody could tell hitler what to do as he was an irrational murdering scumbag. It all also impossible to sway the mind of believers in sky fairies as they to are irrational and thankfully in the minority in this society.
      TB there is no rant and rave I would love you to be able to produce 1 physical piece of evidence of the existance of a higher intelligent creator but as with all other believers it cant be done as all you have is a belief and a knowing, scary stuff to say the least. Dont ask me to disprove the existance of god as I cant because I cant prove that something doesnt exist your argument defies logic.

    • True Believer says:

      12:14pm | 30/03/11

      Sir Ronald Bradnam

      I think you must be what Elphaba quaintly refers to as a troll.  Not a term internet wise I was familiar with before.  Apparently one who likes argument for argument’s sake.  If that brings you joy, who am I to deny it for you.  Strange hobby though.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      12:35pm | 30/03/11

      Tb well i guess I must beif you say so as you are the true believer afterall with a direct line to a greater superpower, call me what you want makes no difference to me.
      Happy to debate any issue anytime.

    • True Believer says:

      01:32pm | 30/03/11

      Sir Ronald Bradnam

      Nothing to debate my friend, you have your opinion which you hold to. Your right.  Doesn’t make it true though.

      Anyone who accepts the Lord as their Lord and Saviour with a repentent and humble spirit can have a “direct line” to God.  Jesus loves you just as much as He loves me or anyone else on here, He died for you, just as He did for me.

      The only difference is I accepted His gift of life by acknowledging I was an unforgiven sinner and turning to Him. You choose not to. Your God-given choice. He will not force Himself on anyone.  The onus is on us to come to Him.  He says “I stand at the door and knock.”  I hope one day you open that door. You will never look back.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      05:06pm | 30/03/11

      TB likewise entitled to your opinion, doesnt mean it is right it is just an opinion as you say.
      You know what they say about opinions, they are like arse….. everyone has one and yours works just as well as mine.
      I chose to live my life as a good human being without the need to hold on to the hope that there is a magical paradise we levitate to after we die, mind you if i end up kissing the feet of some almighty dictator and i look across to the next cloud and see a different believer banging 70 virgins I will be pissed off.

    • TChong says:

      07:02am | 29/03/11

      AS some one who helps manage people facing end of life illnesses,
      ( known in “Health “as “Special Care Plans)  I believe it is for the individual to decide.
      What is the point, if its against the persons wishes, to prolong a life,at the clearly terminal stage,  that can not be “cured”. ?
      From my experience, much of the emotional trauma associated with these situations is because of feelings of guilt, and / or “unfinnished business”, occaisonally from the patient, or far more often- from the next of kin.
      Another issue with pallative care patients, is opposite views taken by family members.
      Part of the family might agree with the “Not for Resus”- ( Special Care Plan), while another part of the family may oppose, with staff caught in the middle.
      That can be very hard on the nurses and doctors as we can have family begging us to do more,( to “save”) or less,( to let them go “peacefully”) in order to “help"the patient.
      When appropriate, the patient should decide.
      When the patient cant decide ,then the decision should be based on the realities unique to the patient.
      “Guilt “should play no part.

    • Evan Findlay says:

      10:01am | 29/03/11

      Totally agree TChong. I work in Oncology and it baffles me how family members guilt their dying loved one’s into drawn out radiation and chemo therapies with little chance of recovery. And what surprises me more is that some of these patients are in their nineties.  The patient does not want it but the siblings push for it because they can’t come to terms with death.

    • notSue says:

      12:02pm | 29/03/11

      Absolutely, I agree completely with both of you re the patient having the right to make the decision re attempts at cure or palliation. I think we agree the danger with euthanasia/assisted suicide is that instead of pressure to cure, the patient may feel pressure to die quickly, which isn’t his choice either.

      The most difficulties arise when the patient is no longer able to state a clear choice re continuing treatment.

      By the way, NFR does not exist in a hospice. It’s a given that that is the case on admission.

    • notSue says:

      04:08pm | 29/03/11

      Just one more thing, re “unfinished business”. In my experience, people who have family issues, major regrets, things left unsaid, suffer more mental distress when dying than those who get the chance to clear the air. You’re right, Chongy.  It’s part of inching towards acceptance of their death. The ultimate aim of palliative care is for the terminally ill to traverse the stages/emotions of preparatory grief and the physical stages of their illness as comfortably as possible. Sometimes, this entails some short-term pain in the process. However, i’ve seen many people do what they needed to do and eventually die at peace, in the knowledge they leave “spiritually” (not necessarily in the religious sense) healed.

      I know that this is difficult for those with no experience of the process of dying to understand and it may seem as though I’m condoning distress. I’m definitely not, but what I am saying is that for some people, an early death (after cure is no longer possible) may rob them of this chance. Once they are gone, their suffering ceases, of course, but perhaps, if they had the chance to go through this process, the desire for a quick end would disappear. And their families/friends left behind to grieve can be at peace also. I’ve seen it happen often, believe me.

      This question of changing the law *needs* to be agonised over, We have get any changes to right,  and not act in haste, otherwise we may regret them at leisure.

    • AgreeWithSue says:

      06:24pm | 29/03/11

      @Not Sue
      I agree with most of your sentiments…. I am still working in palliative care.

      A few points

      1) I think most people today fear death, or rather dying, as we are exposed to so little of it in our tidy nuclear families (compared to the past).

      2) “You’re against euthanasia because of your religion”  We no…. I am completely irreligious, for instance having no problem with abortion (including retrospective ones in the case of some right-wing politicians).

      3) The vast majority of requests for euthanasia I receive come from the relatives of the completely unconscious patients who project THEIR SUFFERING onto the PATIENT.

      4) I have seen more deserving cases for euthanasia in patients who are suffering as much (if not more) than palliative patients, but whose life expectancy is significantly greather than 6 months:
          - dementia patients: incontinent and dependant on others for care
          - chronic pain sufferers (ongiong severe pain for years and years)
          - some (not all) severely depressed patients receiving ECT
          - quadrapeglics; incontinent and dependant on others for care
          - the person placed “into care” by their family, removed from their family home of many years, and then becoming institutionalised for all their care needs.

      5) Death is an inevitable and natural part of life, and should not be medicalised (beyond exceptional palliative care).

    • Dark Horse says:

      07:03am | 29/03/11

      As a police officer I saw the result of people who wanted to die and who ended their lives in horrendous ways eg, with a chain saw. If people have terminal illnesses and want to speed things up with dignity, I’m all for euthanasia.

      Who are we to force people to live when they are ready to do what we all do eventually?

    • Death by Choice says:

      07:07am | 29/03/11

      My life, suffering, my death by my decision.  Not all palliative care works - we treat dogs better.

    • Joan says:

      07:16am | 29/03/11

      This ain`t no clinic…... it will be a Nitschke Human Liquidation Centre ... funny how this guy gets away with promoting the bumping of humans…. wrapped up in good deeds cotton wool.  This guy is the creepiest person in Australia…. he beats Juliar… and that`s saying something.

    • Gregg says:

      07:56am | 29/03/11

      @Joan,
      You probably just feel he is creepy because he is prepared to talk openly about that which most of us do not want to talk about and certainly have no glee in thinking about facing a lingering painful death which many may.
      And aside from family, what do you think the impact is on medical people for these situations.
      Gillard is open about nothing because she probably does not want to show any more than she has to just how dumb she is on many essential aspects of government and she has no feelings whatsoever for Australians in general.

      You may want to note that even the Doctor has stated that the South Australian legislation is not for a clinic but for people to elect to die at home.

      Phillip Nitschke ought to be Australian of the centuries and get a few Nobel prizes.

    • Minay26 says:

      07:59am | 29/03/11

      Wow Joan
      You really have no compassion for a human being in pain?
      I understand the hesitation people have for a clinic where assisted suicide would be ok… however, that is what it will be… SUICIDE. Nitschke isn’t going around picking random people and killing them. Nor is the families the ones to decide what to do. the PATIENT is in charge. They make the plan, they execute the plan.
      Scare mongering like yours is the reason that we are stuck in a place where people are in pain, they are humiliated and they can’t do anything about their situation.
      Watching someone suffer the humiliation of not realising they need the toilet and having to be cleaned up, of watching someone writhe in pain because they can’t have more pain relief… do that with someone you love and we’ll see how you feel about it then.

    • Joan says:

      08:36am | 29/03/11

      Yep…. put the sign out   .... welcome to slaughter house Nitschke ... pick your method .of death ...select..from…. Nitschke slaughter house menu… all needs catered for….. Green tick of approval…

    • RGG says:

      08:51am | 29/03/11

      Dear Joan,

      This is an ellipsis: ...

      It is a device which is used to denote that certain words or thoughts have been omitted from the sentence it appears in. Sometimes it is also used as a means by which to denote a brief pause.

      Please cease your flagrant abuse of this wonderful invention.

    • Joan says:

      09:09am | 29/03/11

      RGG…. please read aloud and pause in appropriate place… My pieces will have a dramatic,  poetic , ring to them and greater meaning

    • Gregg says:

      09:50am | 29/03/11

      @ Joan,
      ” Yep…. put the sign out   .... welcome to slaughter house Nitschke ... pick your method .of death ...select..from…. Nitschke slaughter house menu… all needs catered for….. Green tick of approval… “

      Well, talk of being picky Joan aside from callous that is, but why do you think Philip has introduced those that are interested into different ways they can help themselves along?

      It might just be because the only government that legalised Euthanasia had it overturned and no government in Australia has expressed any interest again until SA.

      You do not have to go to an Exit seminar if you do not want to Joan and it could be that the relatively small numbers of people that do, do so because they have an enormously painful life they are dealing with not too well or want to be prepared before it gets to a stage where they can do nothing and nobody is legally able to help them.

      Hardly a slaughterhouse.
      If you have ever had a pet who is ailing, you keep thewm as comforatable as you can for as long as you can and it is a very awful experience when they get to an age that a Vet will say there is really not much more that they can do.
      They have pain in their eyes and you will have sadness yourself.

      Do you think that we should not look after our own kin as well as with our pets.

    • Evan Findlay says:

      10:15am | 29/03/11

      Joan, you come across as the typical person who guilts their parents into painful procedures simply because your not mature enough to deal with end of life issues.
      It’s not your decision.
      If you want to fight cancer then that’s your right. If you want to put yourself through the 30 - 40 radiation sessions. chemotherapy, the constant nausea and vomiting, the pain, the lack of appetite, the mental anguish of watching your family watching you die over an extended period of time, in some cases the smell of rotting flesh, the lethargy, on the possibility that you might beat it, then that is your choice. But do not belittle people because they choose not to.
      You do not have the right to make decisions for other people.

    • John A Neve says:

      07:22am | 29/03/11

      Why do we even debate this isue?

      We have a Right to Liife organisation, why not a Right to Die?
      There is a right to donate ones organs, give blood, bone marrow etc.

      Surely a fundamental right is the right to die at the time and place on your choosing?

    • Gregg says:

      08:00am | 29/03/11

      Totally agree John and Philip Nitschke is one good doctor who has been leading the charge for us.
      He should be accorded hero status.

      The resources that are tied up in keeping people alive could be well used in fact be directed towards saving useful lives so as they could be more enjoyable.

    • Jamie says:

      08:19am | 29/03/11

      Sadly the reason we debate this issue John is because of god botherers and intellectual light weights like @Joan and @True believer.  I wonder whether their thoughts will be concentrated on their god or their immense pain as they go into the final death throws of a terminal illness lying in a dehumanizing hospital ward. I don’t think it will be with their heavenly father.  Unfortunately for them and indeed us that hindsight will be too late.

    • Kate says:

      11:49am | 29/03/11

      Completely agreed John. Well said.

    • Tubesteak says:

      07:42am | 29/03/11

      There is no logical reason why humans should not be given the right to die with dignity by their own choosing.

    • anonymous says:

      07:42am | 29/03/11

      Canberra by a any means as soon as possible. Capitol Hill would be a perfect location.

    • Phil says:

      07:58am | 29/03/11

      Q) What would a euthanasia clinic offer?
      Umm i was hoping sandwiches but apparently not. (duh, what do you think they do?)

      Q) If SA gets a euthanasia clinic, do you think ‘euthanasia tourism’ is a possibility?
      Finally SA gets something that people will be willing to actually travel to SA for!

    • john says:

      08:18am | 29/03/11

      @Phil - actually SA misses out on euthanasia tourism because only genuine residents of SA can euthanise themselves.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      10:09am | 29/03/11

      Damn, must remember to buy land in SA…..

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      01:48pm | 29/03/11

      Shane from Melbourne, what a great idea.

      Want to go halves with me on a small block? It would be cheap, it only needs to be large enough for 2 tents and 2 letterboxes to qualify as a residence.

      A very small price to pay for dignity.

    • Phil says:

      03:21pm | 29/03/11

      Careful you lot, you will start pushing the price up of Adelaide land \ housing! next thing you know it will be as overpriced as sydney for something where you will end up dead before you can pay it off! :-p

    • Babs says:

      07:59am | 29/03/11

      Hospitals, doctors and nurses routinely help people to die - they just don’t talk about it. Perhaps Dr Nitschke wants to rationalise our society so that this burden is removed from compassionate medical staff who run the risk of prosecution.  And as some sadder trials have shown us, he might just prevent a loving partner or family member from feeling they had to do it. And Dark Horse might prefer it if police didn’t have to deal with gruesome suicides where there was no help available.

    • pat says:

      08:28am | 29/03/11

      This is absolutely true.  The religious prefer to not acknoweledge an issue in the hope it will just go away.  Similar to the abortion debate - making it illegal will have virtually no effect on the amount of abortions that are procured, it will just increase the risk of the procedeure.  Euthanasia is a fact of life, if you disagree with it don’t take that option when it’s your time to die.  Don’t try and force others to follow your beliefs, it never works.

    • Your name: Lissy from Brissy says:

      01:28pm | 29/03/11

      Your comment:
      You are absolutely right - there is a process in place in hospital already for those who want to die. It comes under the banner of ‘withholding treatment’ and requires psychological evaluation of the patient to establish competency about making this decision and understanding and coping with the consequences. The hospital registrar, in addition to the psychologist and the patient’s doctor must also support such a decision. The patient’s family itself is asked to become involved in the process, but they do not hold the power to make the decision. How do I know this? My father, after suffering a major stroke as a result of a brain anuerism at age 50, suffered a number of mini strokes at age 58. They left him unable to speak, unable to swallow and eat so he was on drip feed, unable to control his bowel and bladder movements so he was on a PEG/bag. All humanity and dignity had been stripped of him. And he didn’t want to live any more, made that very clear to everyone through signs and writing. Everything was disconnected and he came home to die. He had a lovely weekend, with friends and family visiting to say good bye. He died in my arms three days later.
      To all those do-gooders, believers and anti euthanasia advocates, two things:1. - “assisted euthanasia” is already here in one form or another; having specialised services would just formalise the processes and provide an avenue for those of us, including doctors, who want to or have to support this, to do it in a supervised, legal, documented, safe environment for all those who chose to go with dignity at the time that’s right for them. 2. - this is no time or place for religious or other debates or whether we are animals that should be treated by vets instead of ‘human’ doctors! The reality is that palliative care in this country is appalling (not due to doctors or nurses) but simply because there isn’t enough of it nor is there enough customised service available. And with our extended life spans due to drugs and technology and continued population rise, it’s only going to get worse. So, as a society we have a choice: either fix up palliative care or implement alternatives, including euthanasia. We cannot have it both ways!

    • CJ Morgan says:

      08:03am | 29/03/11

      I have a form of cancer that will almost certainly kill me in the next year or so, unless radical surgery is successful or a transplant can be arranged.  While I have a positive attitude, if these surgical interventions are unsuccessful I would certainly want to avail myself of the services of such a clinic as is proposed for South Australia.

      Unfortunately, I live in Queensland and there’s no way the tenuous Bligh government is going to countenance enabling legislation that would undoubtedly be utilised by redneck godbotherer contingent as a stick with which to beat them at the next election.

      If my surgical options are unsuccessful, it looks like I’ll have to work out a way to do it myself. Personally, I’d prefer to do it legally, with dignity.

    • sol says:

      09:00am | 29/03/11

      Move to SA. It’s a beautiful place.
      All the best with the treatments though : ) good luck

    • Gregg says:

      09:57am | 29/03/11

      @ CJ,
      Lets hope you get that surgery or transplant and with a positive attitude that will be very supportive of success for you.
      All the best with it and maintain the good outlook.

    • Elphaba says:

      08:09am | 29/03/11

      Excellent.  This is an great step in recognising that an individual should have as much say over their death, as they do their life.

      Here’s to talking about death more honestly and openly, and helping those who’s life has become a terrible burden to bear.

    • Joan says:

      09:44am | 29/03/11

      So what your saying is -let`s not fuss over suicide rates too.

    • Elphaba says:

      11:05am | 29/03/11

      @Joan, if you could hold a worthy discussion, I’d respond to your post.

      But since brow-beating and hysterical emotions are your game - piss off.

    • Gregg says:

      12:21pm | 29/03/11

      @Elphaba,
      Very well said, especially the second post!

    • fairsfair says:

      12:46pm | 29/03/11

      Elphaba I agree with what you are saying, but where it becomes blurry for me is at ultimate decision time. More often than not I think people push it so far that they are no longer able to make the decision. This is understandable because I think deep down we all just want to live. I don’t think it fair on family to be forced to give the go ahead, even when it is in writing as the direct wishes of their incapacitated loved one. I have watched family members die slow and horrible deaths. I remember listening to my Grandma say that she just wished she would die. It wasn’t an emotional statement made from frustration, pain or anger. It was just a comment that you could see she truly wanted to happen - that is why it was so hard to understand and so upsetting. I have also witnessed my cancer ridden uncle be given so much morphene he died within minutes. It is what he wanted and his doctor helped him do it. It goes on and in that situation I think it was the right thing to do. I am really torn by it.

      I try and imagine myself in various positions within this equation and it is just too hard. I do not understand how anyone could lose their will to live. I would resent being put in that position by family members if they chose to do it. After the fact you would always have lingering questions.

      As much as I believe in people’s right to chose death in instances of terminal illness - I think the grey areas (including people who don’t have the correct intentions) deeply outweigh this notion in a legal sense. I think it is for that reason that it can’t be legalised as it presents too much risk.

    • Elphaba says:

      01:27pm | 29/03/11

      @fairsfair, I have no objection to those that think differently.  I’m quite sure the decision to actually go through with something like this must be devestating.

      My feeling is, instead of people immediately responding with histrionics, we shouldn’t be afraid to talk about death.  It happens to everyone, and I we shouldn’t be afraid to talk about what people want to do.

      I don’t believe that these discussions should be shelved because it might offend someone.  And I don’t believe that I, or anyone else, has the right to decide how and when a person should die.  In the end, you don’t have to choose this option.  But it should at least be an option that people can discuss as civilised adults.

    • Elphaba says:

      01:48pm | 29/03/11

      Thanks Gregg. grin

    • biff says:

      08:42am | 29/03/11

      Why can’t we open the first euthanasia clinic in parliament house in Canberra. The stodgy lot in that house are surely in decline.

    • rodney allsworth says:

      09:01am | 29/03/11

      never ceases to amaze me that whenever this doctor of death spruiks his ultimate dr visit, no one ever mentions the totally legal device that allows all citizens to fortell their demise according to ligitimate medicial devices, ITS CALLED- AN ADVANCED HEALTH DIRECTIVE- what is wrong with society when we prefer someone such as this dr of death, when we can secure our own demise at a good hospitial or pallitave care unit according to OUR OWN DIRECTIVE,  why doesnt the media give some information on this option as an addition to this dr death option, they dont, niether does the govt bodies, has this got somthing to do with maintaing silence so as to keep the dr death articles going for news print, ?. I would strongly advise people to look into this option of a ADVANCED HEALTH DIRECTIVE, google it ,see your doctor, talk to a legal person,

      rod   qld

    • Elphaba says:

      09:24am | 29/03/11

      @Rodney, from my understanding though, it just means that you can refuse treatment and enact a DNR.  That is not the same as being able to have someone willingly and legally end your life with the correct cocktail of drugs.

      So no, it’s not the same thing at all.

    • pat says:

      09:26am | 29/03/11

      There is a fair bit of difference here Rod - An AHD allows attending health proffesionals such as paramedics to legally not commence working on an arresting patient according to their wishes. It allows a patient to die.  Euthanasia is the administration of a drug or gas that will kill a patient at a time of their choosing if that is what they desire.  Euthanasia does seem a logical progression however, as AHDs have been around for some time.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      12:39pm | 29/03/11

      Having coincidentally made an AHD yesterday, had it signed by my GP and witnessed by my solicitor, I can reliably inform rod that it is not the same thing as voluntary euthanasia by any stretch of the imagination.

      The AHD records my wishes with respect to artificial resuscitation and life support.  Voluntary euthanasia, if it were available, would allow me the same rights with respect to the time and manner of my death.

      The distinction becomes very clear when one has a probably terminal illness, as I have.  One of the first things that one loses upon diagnosis is the presumption of personal control of one’s life - which we take for granted otherwise.  Personally, when and if it becomes apparent that medical intervention to prolong my life will only further diminish the quality of it, I think it should be my right to direct that intervention towards ending my life in as dignified and painless a manner possible.

    • TheRealDave says:

      09:21am | 29/03/11

      Since i am of the belief that there is nothing after we die I am totally against ‘voluntary’ euthanasia ‘assisted suicide’ etc. For myself that is. I couldn’t really give a crap if others wish to do it. I thin we should all be striving to live as many days as we can, regardless of our personal situations. I don’t care if I have a terminal illness and am in pain - pain means I am still alive. Once you are dead - thats it. Game over. No Refunds. No ‘Do Overs’. Why would you want to run towards it?

      Do not go gentle into that good night,
      Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
      Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

      Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
      Because their words had forked no lightning they
      Do not go gentle into that good night.

      Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
      Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
      Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

      Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
      And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
      Do not go gentle into that good night.

      Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
      Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
      Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

      And you, my father, there on the sad height,
      Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
      Do not go gentle into that good night.
      Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

    • Gregg says:

      10:02am | 29/03/11

      @Dave,
      People do change their minds Dave because of circumstances and you may hope circunstance never visits you so but if it does, perhaps you’ll be thinking of some different lines.

    • TheRealDave says:

      03:55pm | 29/03/11

      Not for a nanosecond Gregg.

      Everyday above ground is a good day. Every single breath is a treasure beyond all wealth.

      Once gone it will never, ever come back.

    • Not for Resus says:

      09:48am | 29/03/11

      “Dignity” describes the inestimable value of the human person. We gain our dignity by virtue of our human existence. We do not lose our dignity when we cease to contribute to the GDP, or when we begin to suffer, or when we are incontinent, etc.
      No-one likes to suffer, but suffering is not the greatest evil in the world. Only evil is the greatest evil in the world.
      My dear friend, a 38 yo mother of young children is presently dying a terrible death from cancer. It is absolutely heartbreaking to see Melissa’s life being cut short like this. But what is most striking is that Melissa is is facing her predicament with incredible courage, dignity, grace and paradoxically, hope.
      For Melissa, euthanasia would be an undignified end to a life of integrity and dignity.
      Melissa is grateful that she is in an environment where the medical practitioners seek to kill the pain, not kill the patient.
      Prediction: Euthanasia will eventually become legalised and normative in Australia. The we will follow the Netherlands lead - where Dutch doctors went from killing the terminally ill who asked for it, to killing the chronically ill who asked for it, to killing the depressed (who had no physical illness) who asked for it, to killing newborn babies because they had birth defects, even though they are unable to ask for it.
      Where will it end? I guess we’ll know in a few decades.

    • eddie says:

      11:01am | 29/03/11

      iI’d like to see some actual evidence of what you are accusing the dutch medicos of there NFR. Other than what someone from what your church told you or what you read in some religious newsletter.
      From what I have heard / read on the subject,  the dutch are quite happy with their laws but there is quite a lot of mis-information getting around - mostly being spread by religious nutters who insist on broadcasting what their sky daddy or the voices in their head tell them. Please put your tinfoil hat back on and stop using the computer. You know the CIA is using the web to spy on you every time you turn it on.

    • iansand says:

      11:08am | 29/03/11

      Fortunately for Melissa, euthanasia will not be compulsory.  She can continue her life of hope, integrity and dignity.  Because she wants to is no reason why I should be forced to.

      And I think you are having a bit of a flight of fancy about Holland.

    • Not for Resus says:

      04:21pm | 29/03/11

      Thanks for the sophisticated put-down eddie.  It may surprise you to be told that you don’t do anything to raise the quality of the discussion by making cheap shots like that. Your comment says more about you and your knowledge of this subject than you might realise.
      My advice to you (if you are man enough to be able to take some civil and mature advice) - do some wider reading on the subject. Go in with an open mind and search for the truth, not just data that suits your own narrow opinion.

    • Pete says:

      05:15pm | 29/03/11

      eddie is nominating himself as an argument for euthanasia.

    • Bloggs says:

      10:21am | 29/03/11

      I watched my brother die of cancer and he was a very sad sight.  He wanted to fight it as long as possible and thought perhaps he may win out against the pain.  He didn’t.  However he made his choice.  He also told me he understood why some would choose to end it peacefully with an injection. His point was that at that stage in a persons treatment, the decision surely was one that belonged to the person and no-one else.  He asked me why we let people suffer but we were happy to end an animals suffering.  He asked me why we were not equal to animals.  It’s a very personal thing, life, and the method of ending it should also be personal, not in the hands of those who prolong our pain for no good reason.

    • Outer Limits says:

      10:23am | 29/03/11

      There is a vast difference between individuals topping themselves and having an institution do it for them. I fail to see why people would use a chainsaw when they could more easily gas themselves with exhaust fumes or a sleeping pill overdose etc. Much less painful and messy.

      The whole euthanasia push is a thinly disguised attempt by society to “disencumber” itself of its “burdens” as a former GG said. I know of a doctor who routinely gets requests from people to end the life of a parent as they don’t want their inheritance being “squandered” on medical treatment for that parent.

      In the end it is not compassions it is selfishness - and Nitschke should lead by example and remove himself from the scene.

    • KH says:

      12:04pm | 29/03/11

      Once again, since apparently this is really hard for some people to understand - the PATIENT is the one who does the asking.  Not the family, not people who stand to inherit money, not doctors, not ‘the government’ - the patient.  The person who is the one dying. Euthansia is about their choice, not anyone elses.

    • G says:

      01:51pm | 29/03/11

      KH - What if the patient was unable to make a choice? What if the patient was in a coma? what if the patient has a stroke and couldn’t talk or write or communicate - and they didn’t want to die, but their relatives think they were suffering too much (and they have too much money to inherit) that they wanted the patient dead?

    • Gamer says:

      03:09pm | 29/03/11

      Possible answer to that G, have the law state that either the patient be able to consent themselves, after a full psychiatric workup, full understanding of treatments, etc, or have a previously written directive that requires multiple witness signatures and a signature from a notary or justice of the peace who has no confict of interest in the situation. If the patient doesn’t match either of these requirements, euthenasia cannot be performed. I would think that these measure would make it alot harder for families to go agaisnt the wishes of the patient.

    • Rose says:

      02:09pm | 29/03/11

      And herein lies the problem. Unlike animals, there are far more financial, emotional and familial implications to ending someone’s life. There will often be doubt as to someone’sotivation for seeking euthanasia where one or all of these issues is present.

    • Freddie says:

      10:42am | 29/03/11

      Power over life or death….....or the power to choose…all sounds like God mania to me. Those who espouse or those who apose…is one as bad as the other?    Being a bit of an individual, I would like to think I could choose, but then that depends on a government giving us the power to do that.

    • JJ says:

      11:45am | 29/03/11

      Assisted death is a very slippery slope indeed. How many times have we heard of a miraculous recovery, ‘the doctor gave me no chance of recovery’, ‘it was a medical miracle’ etc etc. Let alone the temptation to push someone for a quick death for financial savings.

      When will people realise we are all effected by the human condition. We stuff up! We make mistakes. We are easily lead and easily hurt. By opening the door the assisted death, it’s only a matter of time until woops…....

      Pain and suffering are an unfortunate but necessary part of life. We enter this world with little dignity and leave it sometimes the same way. By trying to duck and weave the realities of life I believe we become a lesser people.

      I have been through the death my grandfather who developed cancer and gradually had his body break down. It was terrible to see and it gave me a first hand experience of this topic. I am however still not persuaded of the case for assisted death.

    • Luke says:

      11:48am | 29/03/11

      Idea (which may have already being thought of) - would it be possible to sign something when of full mental health (and possibly physical) to state something along the lines of “if i reach a stage of terminal illness that can no longer be cured or will continue to debilitate then i grant permission for my treating doctor to inject me with something until i show no signs of life”.
      This could be put in a will or in a register like the organ donor register?  This would help remove the family’s interest and also alleviate the doctor of any legal wrongdoing.
      My belief it is a personal choice and we shouldn’t be so afraid of it - its going to happen to us all one day!

    • bleD says:

      04:05pm | 29/03/11

      When in good mental shape one can indeed sign an enduring guardianship form asking that no medical help be used to keep one alive unnecessarily. It is a good option for you and your close family.

    • William Andrews (please do not publish) says:

      12:00pm | 29/03/11

      I have been a medical specialist for over 30 years. If you wish to take your own life that is one thing, but if you insist that you have some imagined “right” to demand that I kill you then that is a completely different thing altogether. I will never use my medical knowledge and training to intentionally harm or kill another person. Not ever. You will have to find someone else to do your killing for you.

    • Grumpy Oldman says:

      12:54pm | 29/03/11

      I notice you don’t have a problem with people taking their own lives, which presumably gives you the right to take your own life painlessly if you find the pain of terminal illness unbearable. You arrogant bastard. It’s not you we want, even though we paid for your medical training and set you up to be one of society’s upper echelon - it’s your expertise we want, and you’re refusing to give it, which leaves the rest of us to hang ourselves, or throw ourselves under trains, or take the wrong dose of the wrong pill and eventually die painfully in our own vomit - because you, holier than thou, look at me I’m a doctor, refuse to help a suffering human being. Get back to worrying about your vineyard and your tax minimisation schemes, you miserable snob, and leave the rest of us to worry about how we’ll take our own lives if this delightfully happy one ever becomes unbearable. Bugger, I’ve taken the bait, haven’t I? You’re not really a medical specialist - your own specialisation is in the pancake house you work in. Tosser.

    • Trebby says:

      12:15pm | 29/03/11

      I watched my father die in a slow and agonizing manner over the course of 5 years. I wish he would have had an option like this.

    • AgreeWithSue says:

      06:31pm | 29/03/11

      @Trebby
      Unfortunately he still wouldn’t have the option:  safeguards in most euthanasia debates include an arbitary 6 month prognosis.  Otherwise we end up killing anyone who was suffering (pain, incontinence, loss of control), including the demented and the depressed.

    • weak says:

      12:28pm | 29/03/11

      Why are humans now so weak? Just roll back a couple of hundred years, people have no pain killers. And they still endured surgery. (Yes I know plenty of them died anyways, but thats beside the point) Look at the guy from that movie recently, he’d rather live and suffer pain from amputating his arm, than to kill himself to relieve his pain. Weaklings….

    • Ron Gibbs says:

      12:37pm | 29/03/11

      I thought your ‘headline’ meant that the ABC TV’s Q&A program was causing viewers to die…or put to sleep.

    • Zeta says:

      01:17pm | 29/03/11

      If I ever needed the help of someone like Dr Philip Nitschke to die, I don’t think life would be worth living.

    • susie m says:

      01:25pm | 29/03/11

      all these negative commenters will change their tune if dying a slow painful untreatable death, or watching both parents die that way…bring it on - i know the baby boomers will be insisting on this when the end comes, its inevitable. If we kept animals alive in pain & suffering we’d be charged by the SPCA - i’d rather die like a dog….

    • susie m says:

      01:27pm | 29/03/11

      futhermore - this is the the 21st century - there is no god - get over it

    • True Believer says:

      08:35pm | 29/03/11

      @Susie M

      The empirical evidence for your statement that “there is no god” is????????

      There is no eviidencei is there?  It is just your opinion, you get over it

    • Stu says:

      09:22am | 30/03/11

      @ True Believer: Why does susie m require any evidence at all?

    • True Believer says:

      09:48am | 30/03/11

      @Stu

      You like to argue don’t you?

      Susie made a statement - “there is no god” - it is either fact or fiction.

      If it is fact - she must be able to “prove” it according to the line atheists use to me ad infinitum ad nauseum.  That is the atheist rant - there must be proof, I am just asking for it. I know you have a problem with it because you and I both know it is not provable. 

      I have as much right to ask an atheist to prove there is no God as they have to ask me to prove my God.

      If Susie cannot prove her statement it is fiction well…..............................isn’t that a fairy story??

    • Stu says:

      10:14am | 30/03/11

      @ True Believer: “If Susie cannot prove her statement (that there is no god) it is fiction well isn’t that a fairy story??”
      If you accept you own words in relation to susie m you must be able to apply the same logic to your own assertions. Let’s rephrase you own statement: “If True Believer cannot prove her statement (that there is in fact a god) it is fiction. So isn’t god’s existence a fairy story?”.

      BTW: Just because someone is an atheist, doesn’t mean they are asserting that they can prove that there is no god. I can’t prove the proverbial celestial teapot either, nor should I have to.

    • Kassandra says:

      02:10pm | 29/03/11

      @  Grumpy Oldman   It’s called medical ethics you twit. It’s really not hard to find out how to do it for yourself, or for someone else to do it for you. You don’t need a doctor to do it for you. Killing people is easy, it’s learning how not to kill them that takes all that training.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      05:38pm | 29/03/11

      Ummm, no. Killing a person is not all that easy. The human body can take an incredible amount of punishment. The primary reason why assassinations fail.

    • seniorcynic says:

      03:04pm | 29/03/11

      I used to support Dr Nitschke and his views but it is strange that no one raises the case of Nancy Crick, a Qld woman with acute abdominal pain who convinced Nitschke that she had terminal bowel cancer. Well he supplied the drugs and she took her own life. When the post mortem was performed it was discovered that she had an operable bowel obstruction, not cancer. While I support voluntary euthanasia I also believe that he should be kept right out of it. I will probably die from a heart attack but I know how to connect a hose to an exhaust pipe.

    • Freedom says:

      03:26pm | 29/03/11

      A woman has the so called right to have an abortion because its her body.
      Then isnt it a humanists right to self terminate because its his or her body.
      If it’s illegal to terminate one self then we’re all just slaves,pieces of property owned by the state…..told what to think,how to live and how not to die when its time.

    • Timmy says:

      09:03pm | 29/03/11

      Euthanasia is not self termination. Self termination is called suicide. Euthanasia implies someone else doing the termination, usually a doctor.

    • Family Man says:

      03:35pm | 29/03/11

      My mother is losing her mind and is getting more and more distressed. My preference is for NSW to have euthanasia. Our family is more than capable of making this decision without guidence from the State or any other entity. People can take responsibility for themselves.

    • JAZ says:

      04:14pm | 29/03/11

      Advocates against euthenasia you should be discusted with your selves. How could you possibly believe that keeping someone alive thats in agony or is about to be for a very long time ???  you people discust me beyond belief. Just wait till a family member or someone you care about has to endure what seems endless pain becuase some narrowminded religious nutbag believes that you dont have the right to end your own suffering… how dare you deny the right of others to end their suffering HOW DARE YOU!!!!

    • Timmy says:

      08:59pm | 29/03/11

      The right to die for some will be an obligation to die for others. I can assure you that I do not want to force people into prolonged suffering. I am aware that for some palliative care does not work for this I have no easy answer, but euthanasia for many is not going to be about their own suffering. For many it will be about reducing the burden for others. It will not be surprising to find that the majority who die in this way will be women.

      We need to care for these people. Let them know that they are valued, loved and not a burden.

    • Vern Baldock says:

      04:54pm | 29/03/11

      I think you should let God decide how , where , and when you die

    • Steve says:

      05:08pm | 29/03/11

      I find it hard to believe that should euthanasia be legalised, that humans, given all our fallacies will somehow act responsibly for each and every case. 

      Pro-abortion activists years ago proclaimed that abortion will only be used to save the health or life of the mother, and we see that nowadays a baby can be aborted while it’s half way through being born.

      I think a main motivator for the legalisation of enthanasia will be economical.  Economical for the governments who no longer have to pump money into aged care and long term patients who are critically ill, economical for the hospital who won’t have to spend big from the usage of their facilities when a one-time treatment can be administered and that’s the end of it.

      There are people on here that talk about giving the right to the individual.  I exempting comatose patients and those with dementia, how about those who have severe depression and are constantly prodded by family and medical staff? 

      Less than a handful of countries have legalised this practice, yet the majority of countries treat this practice as being illegal are they all wrong?  Why is the minority correct? 

      It’s a shame that there are many emotionally fueled comments here, some that are outright nasty for those who express a different opinion.  If you can’t debate civilly from self titled modern, civil minded people then why debate at all?

    • Libby says:

      06:37pm | 29/03/11

      I never understand why so many people continualy ignore the safeguards built into legislation such as this, but i suppose that reality doesnt suit the sensationalised argument that a family member can make this decision for you to get their hands on your money.

      I have to admit, i’m not up on the SA legislation, but i presume it is on the same lines as the NT legislation where you had to have 2 doctors certify that your illness was terminal and a psychiatrist certify that you weren’t mentally ill and had entered into the course of action of your free will.  Nitschke even stated that the clinic would provide an even greater level of safeguard than existed under the NT legislation.

      This debate has never been about family members making this choice and yet this misinformation continues to be cited over and over again.  And for those who argue that its a “slippery slope” - lets have that debate if and when we it appears we might be heading down this alleged slope (i.e. when changes to this legislation are proposed which remove the safeguards).

      @ Steve - why is the minority incorrect?  I would submit the the majority simply havent had open and honest debate on the issues, and in the absence of such debate, the traditional paradigm prevails.  That doesn’t mean the traditional paradigm is correct though…

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      06:43pm | 29/03/11

      Of course Philip Nitschke’s “Exit Foundation”- or whatever he calls it- wants to get in on the act. There is Money to be made!
      The Rann Government of SA, for all it’s faults, corruption, arrogance & dishonesty,and those supporting the legisaltion, have made it perfectly clear that the legislation does not, nor ever has, signalled that Stand Alone Clinics will be either required or legislated for. The Exit people are sticking their noses in for they see a quick way to make a dirty dollar out of people’s health crises.
      Doctors already “Make Patients Comfortable”. They have been doing so for generations. This legislation, we are told, does not, nor is it intended to, legalise Assisted Suicide/ Manslaughter.
      It is, we are told, simply to protect doctors whose terminally ill patients, with absolutely no prospect of recovery & who are in great pain, die as a result of the administration of pain-killing drugs of such a magnitude that death results a few days before they were going to die anyway.
      I know all about this practice of “Making Patients Comfortable. In the 1930s my eldest sister at the age of 4 developed a very rapid, excrutiatingly painful, incurable form of Leukemia. There was, though there may well be now, no cure. Death was inevitable. The doctor involved, seeing the distress my sister was in & that of my parents & siblings asked my parents if “They would like him to make Elizabeth ‘comfortable’. She died peacefully & with dignity & pain-free a few hours later.
      Forward 60 years. My partner of almost 30 years became very ill. There was no cure. There was very much pain. Death was inevitable. We asked the doctors to make sure there was no painfiul suffering & to keep my partner “comfortable”. The doctors & nurses knew exactly what was meant & they took the steps required to make that death peaceful, pain-free & dignified.
      We did not, nor does anyone else, need the macabre services of a special clinic to assist people to kill themselves.
      There must be lots of money in these Death Clinics for why else are Nitschke & his pals so keen to set them up every time they think there is an opening coming up.
      Nitschke & his pals can use whatever means they want to kill themselves.
      They can bloody well stay out of our lives.

    • LC says:

      06:46pm | 29/03/11

      Personally, I wonder how many people who claim to be against euthanasia are also against the same procedure for pets.

    • timmy says:

      08:46pm | 29/03/11

      I might put down my cat because I am going away for work and I cannot get someone else to look after it. I have considered putting down my dog because he has gone blind and the procedure to cure him is too expensive. Maybe the same can apply to Grandma. Poor blind lonely expensive Grandma.

      Fortunately like most thinking people I see a significant difference between the way we treat people and the way we treat our pets.

    • pat says:

      09:37am | 31/03/11

      Timmy if you put down your cat for that reason it says a lot about you as a person.

    • True Believer says:

      10:17am | 31/03/11

      @LC

      Nitschke had his own method of disposing with a dog who’s owner annoyed him when he was younger - he slit its throat!!  Then he wants us to believe he is all warm and cuddly to suffering. Wake up Australians, you are being conned.

    • LC says:

      06:45pm | 12/04/11

      True Believer,

      And your reference for that is where?

    • Gidgee says:

      07:31pm | 29/03/11

      I have no religious affiliation; none whatsoever; however I reserve the right as an Australian citizen to stridently object to the horrendously suave, conceited and smug way “Dr” Nitschke talks about the engineered and deliberately planned death of a human being as if he has a life and/or death privilege over sick and diseased people; as if he has a sort of perverted god-like privilege to deny palliative care for the dying implying that palliative care is not worthy while arranging the killing of someone is.
      Dying is never pretty - I have known many who’ve done so and I believe with all my heart that being taken into hospital (or cared for at home) there to receive suitable medication and drugs to facilitate a mortal’s move from life to death is the only responsible and proper way to treat such terminal folk.
      Legalising euthanasia for mankind automatically opens the door to subtle encouragement - by family members as well as “friends” - to coax and gently urge the sick to seriously consider so-called assisted suicide - we of Queensland watched that sort of drama with the unfortunate Mrs Crick, a lonely woman who was led to think she had a terrible cancer so, while ghouls hung around her bed giving “encouragement” she took a proffered deadly draught and died - after her death it was revealed, by the coroner, that she had no cancer at all.
      Mrs Crick was simply a lonely aged woman who, suddenly, had persons to sit with her and talk to her…how terribly sad when loneliness can be so twisted.
      Nitschke walks a fine line over this much-touted death dealing - the USA imprisoned Jack Kovorkian for similar “work” and the sooner the Australian government overrules the South Australian administration’s attempt at pandering to Nitschke the better - the federal government did it with the Northern Territory’s legislation and I sincerely hope that the same squashing of mooted euthanasia plans, by SA, is quickly forthcoming.
      Over and out.

    • Luke says:

      09:18pm | 29/03/11

      What… Since when has compassion been “god-like priveledge” EVERYONE has the right to life dont they? So why cant they have a right to die in peace and not in pain.

      I have seen reletives and friends with terminal illnesses who have died in pain and were living with no quality of life… who are we do deny them a “dignified” death. Euthanising a human WILL NOT be like euthanising a pet, which some people think its like, im sure the greatest of care,  comfort, compassion and diginity will be provided in authorised clinics.

    • Steve says:

      09:50am | 30/03/11

      It’s such a common statement isn’t it.  We have the right to die.

      Let me put something into perspective for a second.  I find it ironic that adults, both in their middle ages and their older stages saying that it’s their right to choose when to die.  Yet should adults and those in the wider community who either support or have children in hospital suffering from a critical or incurable disease find themselves strong enough to send and support these kids through the rigourous and long term process of treatment and the painful nature of it.

      Then to balance their pain and suffering, we send clowns to visit them in the hospital to help ease their burden, we send them on camps to help them enjoy the opportunity of being a “normal” child, we pour money into foundations that provide them with happy final memories we do everything in our power to help them take their mind’s off what they’re currently going through, we tell them to “hang on” or “be strong” even though their situation may be hopeless.

      Yet, in contrast, if the adults are the one’s suffering we are quick to point out our rights to die.  Does that mean that an adults right to die and to end their physical, emotional and mental suffering is greater than a childs?  That we can stomach the prolonging nature of treatment for our children, but refuse to go through that ourselves and should it be too tough for us, our rights are violated because we can’t just choose to end it quickly.  Someone in this post sent out a question in a somewhat direct way to find out why we have become so weak all of a sudden?

      These so called “rights” are just as imaginary and non-existent and the “sky fairies” that those in this post seem to use to insult others with a different belief system.  To bluntly put it, that’s life and death is a part of it.  We don’t live in an equal society, it will never be like that. 

      Though, I strongly support being an advocate of what you believe, and if this is something that you strongly believe in then good luck to you.

      Oh and @Libby, I didn’t mean to not answer your re-directed question about why the minority is wrong.  Well, a simple example would be television.  You have a favourite show that you watch, though the overall population does not like it as much as you do and the ratings fall.  Your favourite show then get’s placed in a later time slot, then later still until the show is cancelled and you no longer have the option to watch it.  So you call the station, demanding that they put the show back on or to just complain about the situation.  The station’s reply would be that just because you may like the show, why then would we waste money and resources putting on a show that most people don’t like but only you and a circle of your friends do?

      Simply put, the majority always rules and we find a way to adjust.

    • Luke says:

      08:21pm | 29/03/11

      I am a firm believer in “the right to die”. We all have a right in this country to be healthy and have a high quality of life but what about when the “quality of life” ends and every day is getting more painful? everyone should have the right to end their lives with a least a little bit of dignity.

    • JP says:

      08:45pm | 29/03/11

      I like the “wouldn’t let your dog die that way” argument. Especially in the highly demented patients - completely unaware of the shell of human being they have unfortunately become -  unable to care for themself, unable to recognise they’re own offspring or themselves. An empty husk, only able to perform the most automatic of functions - breathing in and out, moaning and soiling themselves. Wouldn’t do it to your dog. Apparently for some people it’s good enough for their parents.

    • Renee says:

      08:47pm | 29/03/11

      I never thought I would say this but after watching my Nanna who I was very close to pass away I fully agree with it.

    • Steve says:

      09:51pm | 29/03/11

      @Libby - one of my points is that regardless of the safeguards that are put in place, there will always be individuals that will find a way around it.  It’s the human condition, give an inch and we take a mile.  People who would seek legal euthanasia (and those offering it) will find too many loopholes and formal procedures to go through and would seek out those who aren’t as ethical and those who provide this quick service will be in it for an equally quick profit.

      Like I previously wrote.  In the end it’s all economics, and if you think that “not everyone will be like that” I would say, as humans we are fallible and given the emotional stakes of seeing a loved one in pain and the automatic empathy that ensues especially if said loved one didn’t qualify for the various safeguards in place, I would think that our own moral and ethical lines would be blurred at best and we would seek out that “plan B”.

    • julie says:

      10:08pm | 29/03/11

      Still reckon everybody’s mate Phillip should lead by example. Have known many older people who feel guilty for ‘all the trouble’ they are putting their families to in their latter years and would be vulnerable to his ‘services’

    • Golly gosh says:

      02:22am | 30/03/11

      Sure any individual has the right to end their own life to end intolerable circumstances. Should they be assisted in a formal manner, absolutely not. Dr Nitschkes appears togain some form of I am rights that’s it attitude. This is a human life, not some game of officialdom, so shuv off and trial it on your friends and family if u are so convinced.bet that won’t happen, it is malpractice at the highest level in my view,
      .

    • Stephen says:

      06:09am | 30/03/11

      In an on-going on-line poll conducted by News Corp in South Australia this question was asked,  “Should a euthanasia clinic be built in Adelaide?”  The results at 5:00am on 30/03/2011 were Yes: 2401 or 29.42%, No: 5759 or 70.58%.  As this is a democracy and, in Australia, polls are so often used to influence policy, shouldn’t this poll’s result give the state’s politicians a strong indication that the majority of South Australians do not want this Euthanasia Clinic to be created?  By the way faith is not the same as religion. Faith is personal, religion is corporate.

    • Robbo says:

      09:14am | 30/03/11

      Just like the abortion industry, Nitschke realises that the real money to be made is in the running of a clinic.

    • Jay says:

      08:31am | 04/04/11

      People against Euthanasia automatically assume that there will be clinics opened up where any one who is old and bed ridden will be euthanised. Come on that is not what anyone wants and I for one want to make sure that there are safeguards put into place. The fact is many people are euthanised every day, and it all gets swept under the rug.  If someone is in their last months of their life DECIDE that they want to end their life, then who is anyone to stop them? There are many doctors who will not agree and this is their right. Let’s stop the hystrionics and let us have a mature and open debate.

    • Peta says:

      01:31pm | 04/04/11

      It’s funny how we will so easily kill an animal, not by it’s choosing but by ours. We don’t even think twice about putting an animal down, it happens many times when it’s not necessary but people view it as humane, that there was no other choice for the animal - it was too sick or they could not find a home soon enough. What makes us so special that if we have a family member, in incredible pain and discomfort, that is going to die or would rather do so than to live a life of immense agony, it is seen as ‘inhumane’ to euthanise them. Animals don’t have the right to choose, yet we choose death for them and call it humane. Humans DO have the ability to choose, just not the right to, and we call that humane.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      01:34pm | 29/05/11

      Please help Dr Philip Nitschke I have been thinking about the need to end my life,  I have been told I have heart failure and even if I live I will not have quality of life at least as far as I’m concerned, on top of that I have had very bad Asthma for over ten years and have suffered greatly sometimes coming close to death, I’m even on a machine morning and night so even if I live through the Open heart surgery I still have to suffer fear and pain with the Asthma, please end my life it’s not worth living and beside that I’m disabled from a generic disorder from birth of course it is progressing slowly but I’m worried and frightened what will happen in the future.

      Thank you… when do I come in to be put down it ill be good to see fluffy again or maybe I won’t not sure, I had him put down last year ... yes I know I was told that someone called God says I’m not created the same as fluffy even if simular in some ways and that I’m made in God’s image and that my life belongs to Him and my time on this earth was ordained by Him before I was Born and that I’m to value every minute of my life it’s a gift even though it may be hard sometimes not His will they say.

      He is also suppose to have said I’m to value others peoples lives too,  bet He has never had an enemy like Sue she is rotten through and through, it would be a kindness to others if she was deleted,  perhaps I need to think about that more, they won’t be able to do anything to me I’ll be dead.

      This God even says unborn Babies have a right to live of course they can’t choose like we can but you must agree accidents do happen and they should not be allowed to interfere with more important things like a Carer or around the world trips etc they would just get in the way and what if you already have a Child who wants another one everything,  is so expensive you couldn’t even afford a holiday with nappies and formula etc.

      Well if God is real He just does not understand,  I’m worth nothing now and I have no future and I’m sick of taking pain killers even if they do help,  after all I have a right to opt out, they say He has given me free will and I can choose to do it my way not His who cares what tomorrow brings.

      Yes I’m frightened and confused but I know exactly what I want , anyway why is God doing this to me He must be a Sadist or is it all rubbish and He doesn’t really exist, of course not I came from an Ape, well this Ape wants out ... can I have a Banana for my last supper they are so expensive now!  Great Thank you Dr Nitschke ...  oh by the way I don’t have enough money left to pay your bill I went on a spending spree,  there is no pockets in shrouds you know ,  who cares anyway I will be dead soon ... What you have changed your mind ... Why I thought you really cared that I was suffering!
      God if you are there please help me .... And He did and continues to do so ! the above is not really were I was at,  you can read the real Story in my other Posts if you want to.

 

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