The recent revelation that new Climate Commissioner Tim Flannery has a contract with Meat and Livestock Australia shouldn’t be a surprise to anybody who read his 2008 Quarterly Essay Now or Never: A sustainable future for Australia.

Cows. Just don't eat 'em. Pic: AP

But I think both the relationship and the essay demonstrate that Flannery is not the right person for the job.

Flannery’s advocacy in Now or Never of abundant meat as the answer to global food problems is like suggesting private jets to solve transportation problems.

With a billion undernourished people and the FAO Food Price index at an all-time high, food shortages are already stunting and killing children globally in a cataclysm that will only get worse in an increasingly disruptive climate.

The right food policies can not only end food shortages but be a potent weapon to reduce our warming influence on the climate. NASA climate scientist James Hansen has calculated that merely phasing out coal by 2030 isn’t enough to keep our climate in the relatively benign state it has been for the last few thousand years. We must also reduce non-CO2 warming factors like black carbon and methane and roll-back 200 years of deforestation to further reduce atmospheric CO2.

The planet’s 1.4 billion cattle provide an opportunity for reforestation while simultaneously improving food security. Cattle have been among the prime drivers of that two centuries of deforestation both locally and globally.

A study last year from Queensland University researchers with US colleagues showed that deforestation in Eastern Australia together with globally rising sea surface temperatures was what made our recent droughts hotter. Cattle producers regularly set fires around the planet to prevent natural reforestation reclaiming pasture while the cattle themselves are a significant source of methane and nitrous oxide. But for all this, cattle provide bugger-all food.

How much? Somewhat less than 1.4 percent of global food calories.

A significant part of Flannery’s Quarterly Essay was about food, but the only food he discussed was meat and eggs - with heavy emphasis on grass-fed cattle. The figure of 1.4 per cent above also includes feedlot cattle - grass-fed cattle are an even smaller amount. Meat in its entirety is about 8 percent of global food and grass-fed meat is only about 8 percent of that. So grass-fed meat (not just cattle) is about one half of one percent of global food but dominates Flannery’s global food vision. No wonder MLA love him.
In addition to being obsessed with a globally irrelevant and destructive food, Flannery’s preferred farming systems don’t scale.

Denmark has half of one per cent of our 770 million hectares of land. But its 4.3 million hectares produce almost 2 million tonnes of pork by feeding pigs about 7 million tonnes of grain. How much land do you need to grow 7 million tonnes of grain? The Danes only import about 1 million of those 7 million and still have room for wind farms and Viking museums.

Australia’s ruminant industries by comparison cleared about 70 million hectares in an orgy of destruction and extinctions. They also graze another 330 or so million hectares and produce just 3 million tonnes of red meat that has made us the bowel cancer capital of the planet.

But even that land isn’t enough - we supplement ruminant grazing with grain feeding. How much grain? Oh, about 4 million tonnes. This is more than double what we eat as breakfast cereal, bread and the like. And then there’s the other 2 million tonnes of cereal for dairy cattle for those who put milk (no, Ms Coles, we don’t ALL buy milk!) on that cereal.

So much space, so much destruction, so many extinctions, so much grain, so little meat.

Flannery thinks factory farming is unsustainable. But such claims are meaningless without specifying how much meat you want to produce. Anything is sustainable if hardly anybody does it. Real meat experts know that factory farms are efficient. The UN authors of the landmark 2006 Livestock’s Long Shadow demonstrated that increased factory farming is the only way to supply any increasing demand for meat. The alternative is the continued obliteration of the world’s remaining tropical forests for grazing.

I’d love it if Flannery was right and there were more efficient and humane forms of meat production for culinary Luddites who won’t kick the habit.

But he’s every kind of wrong. Factory farms are an efficient obscenity.

They and associated abattoirs are horrid vicious places exploiting and degrading people as well as animals. They produce unhealthy products - red meat (be it grazed or feedlot) causes bowel cancer and all meat causes heart disease via saturated fat. Feedlots outbid the world’s poor for food directly and more insidiously by seducing farmers to grow feed grains rather than food because it is more profitable.

Hansen’s reforestation and methane reduction imperative requires the elimination of a surplus and unhealthy food - meat. This big task may not possible with an MLA fellow-traveller as Climate Commissioner.

We need a Climate Commissioner with a more rational approach to food policy.

166 comments

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    • Nora R Ferguson says:

      05:35am | 09/03/11

      The sooner we make animal farming too expensive the better.  This will encourage everyone to go vegan and then save the planet.  Carbon from animal farming is what is raising oceans.  This is yet another reason why the Greens are the best choice for this country.

    • Jugg says:

      06:13am | 09/03/11

      Nora,

      Thanks for the laugh to start my day!

    • PJ says:

      06:46am | 09/03/11

      I am a vegetarian as I don’t wish to be part of the ghastly exploitation of animals, including wild fish, for greedy, indulgent human consumption - it is just not necessary as we certainly have PLENTY of other healthy food choices available - I recently checked with the hospital dietitian & she said she knew of NO studies that demonstrated any drawbacks to health by being vegetarian & I know there have certainly been studies demonstrating the opposite - that vegetarians live longer & have less heart disease, cancer & cholesterol.

    • Phil says:

      06:49am | 09/03/11

      Nora I thought in your previous posts over the past week you were taking the piss out of the greenies.

      What is sad is that I actually think you believe what you are posting. Which branch of the greens are you from? The meetings would be a scream with rocket scientists giving whacko opinions.

    • ugg says:

      07:15am | 09/03/11

      PJ,

      Aren’t you exploiting vegetables?

    • Skatman says:

      07:25am | 09/03/11

      Phil @ 06:49am - Like you, I had been thinking Nora was taking the piss as well. What I would give to be a fly on the wall at one of their branch meetings, it would be worth paying admission just for the laughs. Anyone for Tofu?

    • ALP Backbencher says:

      07:32am | 09/03/11

      Nora, wait… Just wait… Hang on a sec… Just… Hang on….. Ok, better know, I just had to stop rolling on the floor laughing (or ROFL for you cool kids out there).

      Right, lets start with a reality check shall we.

      “Lets make farming too expensive” - Explain how this ide would wok in practice, you’re a bit scant on the details. Also, how do you propose to explain to nomadic sub-saharah African populations that going vegan is in their interests?

      “Carbon from animal farming…blah blah blah” - Far out this annoys the crap out of me. CARBON as an element is not caused by animal farming! CARBON DIOXIDE is a by-product of respiration, something which all mammals do. As for your “raising oceans” garbage, check your facts: the IPCC themselves concede that for their ‘predictions’ to be anywhere near accurate there needs to be the confluence of 6 seperate climate events for it to occur at the rate they propse.

      “Greens are best for the country” - Yep, if that is the case, write as many emails as you can now and stock up on kerosene. If the radical left get any more of their sdocialist wealth redistributing hands on the governement, then you, me and the rest of this nation will be doomed and living in the dark. The Greens are not an alternative, they are a danger.

    • BobM says:

      07:49am | 09/03/11

      Gee PJ, what do wild fish eat? Carrots?

    • The Original Oz says:

      07:52am | 09/03/11

      Nora, there is NO reason why the Greens are the best choice for this country.

    • Jason Todd says:

      08:07am | 09/03/11

      But Nora, when everyone becomes vegan, how will we cope with the massive cloud of smug that comes along with it?

    • ZSRenn says:

      08:21am | 09/03/11

      This Nora character is either a G-up or she should be the poster girl in the NSW upcoming elections to show why you should not give your Labor vote to the Greens.

    • GB says:

      08:48am | 09/03/11

      @Nora. What about the poor vegetables? Who speaks for them? They did nothing to you and all you want to do is kill and eat them. I hereby accuse you of Vegecide.

    • Ryan says:

      08:57am | 09/03/11

      @Nora: Wouldn’t we would have to deforest the hell out of the world just to support growing veggies if everyone was a veggie.

    • Huey says:

      09:46am | 09/03/11

      @ Nora….I love your shtick Nora keep it going.

    • Red says:

      09:47am | 09/03/11

      Nora if God didn’t want us to eat animals he wouldn’t have made them from meat

    • josh says:

      11:49am | 09/03/11

      Nora is Erick from opposite land

    • Dazeddazza says:

      11:51am | 09/03/11

      Really intelligent and perceptive comment Nora,  thank you.  Does this make you happy?  Now.back to my steak!!

    • rob brown says:

      01:29pm | 09/03/11

      Pj and Nora should get married and live on a farm smoking dope all day…

    • CD says:

      01:49pm | 09/03/11

      Nora…..step away from the computer. You are destroying the earth.

      Oh you didn’t realize that? It’s just the meateaters doing it right?

    • danny says:

      02:03pm | 09/03/11

      @ nora-wombat greenie, my theory is that your brain is malnourished by not eating what nature has provided(meat).
      Its obvious to all of us that the normal brain processes have been affected sorely by this abuse of your system.
      hence your statement.

    • danny says:

      05:16pm | 09/03/11

      @ nora-Jeezes I was going to a 3 hog spit roast on friday nite; with a greasy pig chase also planned in the interem.
      i guess now that I would be probably wasting my time see if asked you if wanted to come along nora.
      Waddya reckon Nora?
      can i pick you up in the ute?

      If your not available for that nite I got tickets for the military air show at Willimtown airbase if that rocks yer boat.

    • LC says:

      05:18pm | 09/03/11

      @ Ryan.

      Too right. Don’t believe him Nora, try buying a cattle farm and grow soybeans on it. Tell us how it goes.

    • Dave says:

      07:57am | 10/03/11

      Classsssssssssssssssssssic.

      lets have a tax on food now.

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      08:58am | 10/03/11

      Nora. And we would get progress on this issue if the left didn’t keep piggybacking extreme ideas on the good ideas.  You just delay ALL progress and give your opponents the oxygen to grow strong.  Meanwhile the environment dies.

      OK so Australia exports heaps of food. So if we make it more expensive, that’ll put downward pressure on OS population growth.  which is also good for the environment.  So be it.  BUT. What’s your policy for the floatillas of famine refugees that will turn up on our shores?  Think they’ll vote for you?

      Saw a docco recently that claimed the Witlam held out against Vietnamese refugees because they would be exactly the kind people that wouldn’t vote for a socialist government (Witlam’s) like the one they were fleeing.

      Quite the dilemma isn’t it.

    • Deeper Soylent Green says:

      09:52am | 10/03/11

      Nora is correct. Let’s put a huge tax of all meat products, this would mean that only the well off could afford to eat meat. We could reduce other taxes creating a boost to the economy. Everybody else, the dull witted losers & those of similar ilk would be forced to be vegan. Then allow meat eaters to eat vegans and ban all other forms of meat beside long pig. Being humane anthropophaginians we would allow the vegans to be free range. Being allowed to hunt them in their natural environment would keep the gun nuts happy & save the poor ducks. Before long we will be in the low human footprint future so ardently wished for by Greens voters. The rest of us will no longer have to put up with Greens voters or Collingwood fans. You know it is the right thing to do, if the world could speak she would thank us.

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      10:54am | 10/03/11

      It’s the only way DSG because environmentalists are always being outbred. The only way to move the equilibrium is to offer the breaders to use the issue against each other.  The battle field will by status. The weapon - carbon tax.  I’m sure the Greens would be happy to deal with the Coalition on carbon tax. Shame the Greens have coupled the environment to a whole lot of other issues.  Now the party is as pink as it is green.

    • MarieMarie says:

      11:51am | 01/12/11

      You need to grow your own food and understand permaculture before you give an opinion. why? because veganism relies on fossil fuels which are not sustainable.

    • ALP staffer says:

      06:02am | 09/03/11

      Wow, Tim Flannery like meat, well there is at least something I like about him now. I might even invite him to my place for steak, steak and more steak.

    • james thomson says:

      02:10pm | 11/03/11

      Enjoy your meat induced bowl cancer.

    • justin says:

      06:16am | 09/03/11

      It’s a disgrace! I couldn’t get any rump steak yesterday afternoon & had to settle for blade. I’ve had a chilling glimpse of the future people, & it isn’t good. Clearly we need more cattle, not less!

    • Scotchy says:

      07:38am | 09/03/11

      I agree, meat meat and more meat for my new BBQ. Think of all the businesses that would go bust without meat like the Norman Pub , well all pubs , butchers, pie shops, bbq sellers, maccas, kebab shops. lol

    • Justin says:

      02:27pm | 09/03/11

      Just picked up some awesome looking pork chops for tonight - how do they rate on the global destruction scale??

    • Sheldon says:

      06:29am | 09/03/11

      Cows arnt the problem. Humans are. Lets get rid of the humans.

    • Simonious says:

      07:22am | 09/03/11

      Then we can go and eat soylent green.

    • Markus says:

      10:37am | 09/03/11

      Feel free to take the lead.

    • LC says:

      09:18am | 16/05/11

      You first, Sheldon.

      Lead by example smile

    • Castro says:

      06:35am | 09/03/11

      You don’t win friends with salad, Geoff.

    • question says:

      11:52am | 09/03/11

      You dont win friends with sal-AD! *conga line*

    • Andrew says:

      06:35am | 09/03/11

      @Nora: Can we please at least be accurate in our terminology? The planet, this semi-fluid spheroid upon whose surface we crawl about, is not in danger of disappearing. Nor is the ecosphere. The most humanity can do is accomplish its own doom, but probably not even that. What we *are* quite capable of is making life much more difficult for ourselves. But even if we did destroy our own species, the rest of the ecosphere would go on quite nicely, thank you very much, in some form or other, though altered and damaged it may be, from a human perspective. But even if we did all become vegan ... have you any idea how much vegetable matter it takes to properly feed 7 billion people - or later, 14 billion? What you propose is not a solution, just a temporary, stop-gap, fantasy (because the entire population of the world will *never* choose to become vegan, nor even 1 per cent of it - they just don’t want to, and never will) measure in the face of the probably-entirely-intractable real problem, which is, of course, that there are too many of us. 1 billion is the maximum desirable world population of humans, I think. But I don’t think we can solve this one. Nor will nature do it for us by wiping us out: we are just too good at surviving.

    • Alex says:

      07:10am | 09/03/11

      Geoff, what a fantastic article! You’re right, the meat industry is bad for the animals, bad for the planet and bad for us!

      If everyone had one meat free day per week, it would be an amazing start in reducing our dependence on this industry and improve the health of the nation too. And all those meat lovers could still have their steak on the other days.

      Thank you for putting forward such an articulate article.

    • Geoff Russell says:

      07:25am | 09/03/11

      I’m not sure why you are pretending some kind of scientific superiority to Nora while also implying that it takes more vegetable matter to feed vegans than people who eat a lot of meat ... or even a little. I suggest you revise “Trophic Levels 101”.

    • Andrew says:

      11:23am | 09/03/11

      What I said - and meant - was that going vegan is not a solution - the best it can do is ameliorate the problem somewhat -  the amount of food required is still unsustainable, in my (admittedly lay) opinion. The reason why people focus on such issues and possible solutions is that the real problem - overpopulation - is simply too damned hard, and they don’t want to admit that.

    • Geoff Russell says:

      11:59am | 09/03/11

      Andrew: Population is a problem and is being tackled in most places. The growth rate is declining, which is why demographers reckon on a
      peak of about 9 billion in 2050. The key is educating and liberating women. We can feed 9 billion vegan or nearly vegans, while simultaneously increasing the area available to other species and reforesting the planet. But we can’t feed even 7 billion with current
      diets. Stocking the planet with enough cattle to feed even 5.7 billion with Aussie levels of beef would generate about 188 million tonnes of methane (current levels of human generated methane are 350 million tonnes with 90 million from livestock, so 188 is a huge amount) ... [the details of the calculation are in “CSIRO Perfidy” ... and are straight forward].

    • Chef says:

      07:26am | 09/03/11

      If you vegans had any idea what filth goes into most of your vegan foods… what a mess of additives and chemicals. Sheesh. Give me a healthy steak any day.

    • Amy says:

      11:17am | 09/03/11

      You think fruit/veg and legumes are full of additives and chemicals?

      Scary.
      I would not like to eat at your place Chef, I hope your bowels are enjoying the flesh fest.

    • danny says:

      02:13pm | 09/03/11

      cool comment fella.

    • The Original Oz says:

      07:50am | 09/03/11

      Tim Flannery is just wrong on so many levels. Australia’s Al Gore - stands to make a fortune out of the AGW/CC fraud so it is in their own interests to keep the panic levels high

    • VVS says:

      10:28am | 09/03/11

      You can’t blame the guys making a lot of coin off the AGW scare… it’s understandable… hell I’d spruik it too if I were being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to do so. And there is a lot of money to be made.

      Everyone has to make a living.

      It’s the extreme left wing loonies who lap this up like it was pureed tofu that are the scary ones.

      It is extremely ignorant to think man has such an influence over the weather, especially as we know from history there have been ice ages, dark ages, periods of extreme wet and extreme drought all well before the Industrial Age. No humans to blame for those.

      Sure we should all do our part to keep the planet clean, but more perspective is needed from the people who are most vocal about it.

    • danny says:

      02:15pm | 09/03/11

      @ Original oz, bang on man

    • Moo says:

      07:50am | 09/03/11

      There is a food surplus. The poor can’t afford it is the problem.

    • Zeta says:

      07:52am | 09/03/11

      We need to reform the way we buy and sell food before we can regulate crops in line with a changing climate.

      You can’t feed people without grain, and in the countries rich enough to afford it, you can’t graze cattle, feed fowl or any other meat without grain.

      But the way we buy and sell grain is unsustainable, and directly contributing to starvation in countries for whom climate change is an abstract concept, and for whom veganism isn’t a choice, but a result of grain, rice and the occassional vegetable being the only food available.

      The days of a farmer taking his crop to a market where it’s bought and sold according to a theoretical supply and demand curve are a thing of centuries past. For the last 100 years at least, crops have been bought and sold by traders to insulate farmers from risk.

      Farmer Nora, on her organic wheat germ farm, takes her crop to the market. Say one bag of wheat is worth $10 and an ideal crop is 100 bags, at $1000. If she has a bad season, that crop might only be worth a quarter of that. But Trader Zeta protects Farmer Nora from risk by negotiating, years before, a fixed price of $5 per bag. Doesn’t matter if she can only half fill the bag, or only deliver half the number of bags, the price is fixed. Farmer Nora can plan for the future based on a fixed price, live off the profits of Government subsidies, and in a bumper crop, sell the extra else where, or buy new land and negotiate a seperate deal with another trader.

      Back to me, Trader Zeta. I’ve got a piece of paper that guarantees me, for a fixed price, a variable ammount of goods. If it’s a good year for wheat, I make a profit by selling on the surplus. If it’s a bad year, I need to insulate myself from risk. So what do I do? I sell the piece of paper. To a bank. This ‘food bond’, or derivitive, is an ‘object of potential wealth’ to an investor. I sell my $500 derivitive to a bank for $750, who knows they can get a potential return of up to $1000. But because the utility of wheat is fixed and constant, the bank sells it on… to another bank. For $1500. And so on and so forth. Until the product on the piece of paper has no relation to the financial product it’s bundled into. You’ve probably got these agricultural derivitives in your own superannuation fund and you don’t know it.

      And while this is happening, what’s happening to Farmer Nora? The value of her crop isn’t going up, because she still has an agreement to sell grain at $5 per bag. Demand food remains the same. But the supply / demand of derivitives shot up because of the tanking US real estate market. Investors moved their money out of risky debt obligations and into food - but there were only so many farmers and only so many derivities. With investors scratching around for a shrinking pool of agri-debts, food prices shot up.

      This process reached it’s zenith in 2006 when the price of wheat increased by 80 per cent. Maize by 90 per cent. Rice by 230 per cent.

      How can we seriously talk about reforming what we eat when the way we buy what we eat is so open to exploitation? With banks speculating on fluctuations in the food market, we can never have meaningful change. With cattle the biggest consumers of wheat around the globe, they’re going to fight tooth and nail to keep that market open and consuming or else their billions of dollars tied up in food derivities will be put at risk.

      Goldman Sachs. Merryl Lynch. Deutche Banks. Morgan Stanley - these guys are not going to let demand for meat drop because it will drive down demand for grain. And if demand for grain drops they’re screwed. It will be hard to keep derivities high if Farmer Nora stops producing.

      So intellectuals and Government academics are wasting their time with their navel gazing. Fix the banks and fix the market before you can fix the food.

    • Terry says:

      08:21am | 09/03/11

      What utter nonsense.
      Farming 101 and Economics 101 all mixed up in an undergraduate’s attempt to impress. The attempt gets a “D”
      Eliminate the sweeping generalisations and untruths and what is left? Nothing. No facts, no cogent argument, just a biased opinion from someone who doesn’t know the first thing about AUSTRALIAN farming.
      Population numbers keep on increasing year afyer year…around the world more food is needed and this will continue until population numbers start to decline. As far as beef, specifically, is concerned, all populations eat red meat in increasing amounts when they become economically viable. They shift from grains to protein and they shift up the price curve from chicken, pork, etc to red meat; particularly beef.
      It just tastes best to the greater part of the population.
      Vegetarians can make their own choice, but they won’t influence meat-eaters to permanently adopt their practice.
      Also, Australian farmers receive no government subsidies. Australian farmers are the most efficient producers of food in the world. Australian farmers utilise the latest technology in their production.
      Australian farmers will be producing more food for the world, including beef, until the earth stops spinning. And that aint gonna happen.

    • AdamC says:

      08:22am | 09/03/11

      Zeta, your narrative there makes no sense. There is still a spot market for many agricultural commodities based on supply and demand. Obviously, producers and buyers use risk management tools to manage their risk. (Which I think is what you are getting at, but you seem to take the risk management/speculation process to a quite bizarre place.) They have been doing this for hundreds of years. It would be very damaging to food production if producers and buyers became unable to do this.

      The only thing that is happening in agricultural markets at the moment is rising demand. This is driven in part by population growth, but mainly by rapidly rising living standards. In that sense, rising food prices is a good problem to have. 

      I see all this crap about food crises as just the lastest campaign of the ‘I want governments to run everything and tell me what to do’ movement.

    • baal says:

      08:55am | 09/03/11

      A+

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      01:02pm | 10/03/11

      “With investors scratching around for a shrinking pool of agri-debts, food prices shot up” The wholesale did.  And that puts upward pressure on prices.  But demand can put some downward pressure on it. But not too much because people still need to it.  The owners of the debt make a loss but not as much as a loss if they remained in other investments.  Food derivatives are then like gold.  Last option store of value to minimise losses during turmoil. Especially with so much quantitative easing going on.

      Add to this the upward pressure on commodity prices due to central bank money printing.  And as Terry pointed out: population growth.

      Banks are like all the other less productive sectors like lawyers, accountants, public servants, politicians and entertainers.

      The only reason they have such a big impact is because of fractional reserve banking.  Amplification of the risk and reward. Whereby they shift the powers of the central bank to themselves. The central bank may create a shiny new $100 in it’s computer.  But its the bank that can lend/spend $900 because of that shiny new $100.

      Don’t banks ‘debts’ to each other also count as reserves?

      @ Terry and AdamC.  Read the Omnivores Dilemma by Michael Pollan.

    • Jim says:

      07:54am | 09/03/11

      Tim Flannery using an official position to comment on something in which he has a vested interest??? Surely you jest sir!

    • Reg says:

      10:51am | 09/03/11

      Isn’t that what farmers and businessmen do Jimmy?

      Are you suggesting James, that only those who are completely uninterested and ignorant of the subject are allowed to comment? Next you’ll be objecting to the Chairman of the Bank making comments about interest.  That’s so very MarK like.  Shame….

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      07:58am | 09/03/11

      I didn’t climb to the top of the food chain to start again at the bottom, eating grass.

    • Matt says:

      11:27am | 09/03/11

      Top of the food chain? Tell that to a bear, lion or shark…

    • Jugg says:

      11:38am | 09/03/11

      Can a bear, lion or shark fire a gun?

      (Plays Rocky Theme, runs up the stairs!!!)

    • Matt says:

      12:19pm | 09/03/11

      @Matt: I’ll tell that to a shark next time I’m eating a nice piece of flake, thanks. wink

    • BT says:

      08:11am | 09/03/11

      I love this article and am so glad that finally we are starting to see the main stream media reporting this issue. The factory farming of meat is one of the most wasteful processes and use of resources on the planet.
      The usual howls of derision simply indicate an individuals inability to adapt to a healthier and more sustainable diet, and a lack of education about nutrition and food preparation. Of course they probably also come from those with vested interests in farming and the hospitality industry who care little for the environment and more for their own hip pocket. Ah well, it’s an unsustainable industry anyway and prices will eventually rise beyond the reach of most again, for which I’m glad because the animal cruelty that goes on in those factory farms is simply revolting. If people really saw the barbarity many of these animals endure they would cease eating meat altogether as myself and many people I know have.

    • PTom says:

      11:11am | 09/03/11

      So BT where do you get your veggies from a Farm Greenhouse or Soil?

      Is not greenhouse farming, Factory farming too?

    • Judge Holden says:

      11:56am | 09/03/11

      BT, even the author of this article agreed that “factory farming” is the most efficient way to produce meat. It takes less land, uses less water, less grain, less labour etc etc than range farming does. Fresh chicken has a smaller carbon footprint than tofu!

      Which barbarity exactly are you talking about? Have you ever been to a feedlot to see for yourself, or inside a chicken barn? Or are you just believing what the vested interests of the animal liberation lobby are spruiking?

      The one thing that this article does do at least is to shine light on the goal of these extremist organisations which have been hiding behind their feel good anti fur, anti duck hunting and anti fois gras campaigns for years. Their goal is to ensure that all farming of animals is stopped. They don’t want you to eat free range chicken, or grass fed beef or cageless eggs, they want us all to cease “enslaving” animals on farms.

      I’m a farmer and I am endlessly insulted by the untrue comments levelled against my profession. It is my job to ensure that each animal in my care is looked after to the highest standard and that is a responsibility I take very seriously. I’m sick of being demonised by people who no NOTHING about animal husbandry, save for their romantic visions of a vegan utopia.

      Whatever the science or maths said the author would angle and spin it to suit his own argument, because for him and others this is a debate about morality, not science.

      I can atleast sleep well in the knowlege that this is a battle that the vegans will not win. Human nature will never allow it. We will always eat meat.

    • Sarah says:

      08:12am | 09/03/11

      If god didn’t want us to eat meat, he wouldn’t have made it so tasty.

    • stephen says:

      09:30am | 09/03/11

      So’s caramel, and i don’t see any caramel trees anywhere.
      (Anyhow, what God does is frankly none of our business.)

    • PTom says:

      11:15am | 09/03/11

      @Stephen
      Yes, you don’t see caramel trees because caramel comes from Sugar Cane.

    • stephen says:

      11:52am | 09/03/11

      That means meat is only a carnal longing.
      And favouring lad, what about the taste ?

    • Reg says:

      12:25pm | 09/03/11

      PTom “caramel comes from Sugar Cane.”

      ... and lots of coal to burn it, thus producing more pollution then several flatulent cows. wink  Down with the cursed sugar tree!!!!

      What have you done?????  Please, not just yet.

      God knows what God wants.

    • fairsfair says:

      12:50pm | 09/03/11

      I read an aticle once (wish I could remember who wrote it) where it was discussed that Sugar Cane is one of the best crops to remove carbon from the atmosphere. Apparently it is far better than your standard plantation. I think the message of it was that in purchasing carbon credits to invest in plantations that offset emissions, investment in sugarcane should be encouraged. It has useful bi-products and the stacks only emit steam. The issue is its transportation and harvest that generates all the carbon. Anyway it was a rather interesting notion.

      It is just giant grass afterall.

    • Reg says:

      02:10pm | 09/03/11

      That would make sense….  Sugar is C12H22O11

    • fairsfair says:

      03:15pm | 09/03/11

      oh good god Reg, I even spent my senior year of high school chemistry at the sugar mill doing all sorts of crap and I can’t remember that! I tip my hat to you wink

      it is quite a clean extraction process, it would just be good if they could find better ways to a) get it to the mill and b) distributed oh and c) stop closing down local mills so product has to be transported further (like they have just done to Babinda in FNQ).

    • JIM says:

      08:17am | 09/03/11

      There is one very big problem with the conventional wisdom about food production within which your argument is presented.  That problem is that the vast majority of grains are fundamentally unhealthy.  Humans and grains both evolved over millions of years on the basis that our guts could not digest them and many grain types are toxic.  Yes, modern technology means that we can mill them and process them to reduce the levels of toxicity to a level where the impact is reduced - but over 70% of the population have some level of wheat intollerance. 

      Using Calorie count as a measure of food value or requirement is also highly problematic.  The underlying science of food calories is based on burning the food and seeing how much energy is released and has little correlation to the actual way our bodies process it.

      The whole recommended daily intake of most food is based on old science.

      On a personal level i average about 1500 calories a daym weight 90kgs am never hungry, lift weights and am continueing to put on muscle mass with a no carb diet and have never felt healtheir.

      The whole food production debate needs to be rethought based on the sciene of this century - not the grain marketing of last century.

      Interesting side note - the food pyramid with grains at the bottom was developed by the US grain growers in the 1930s as a way of improving sales.

    • Kelly says:

      02:24pm | 09/03/11

      I wonder if that side note’s true… what’s your source

    • Geoff Russell says:

      10:39pm | 09/03/11

      JIM:  humans can live long healthy lives on a vast variety of diets ... the paleo-diet anti-grain “theory” is pseudo scientific mumbo-jumbo ... which is why it isn’t part of mainstream nutritional science.

    • AdamC says:

      08:24am | 09/03/11

      Here’s another article I can mentally write after seeing the author’s name and the title. At least Geoff can write.

    • Elphaba says:

      10:35am | 09/03/11

      Time to ask for a staff job! wink

      Re: the article - eat meat, don’t eat meat.  Everyone is entitled to a choice.  Much like religion and taste in music - please don’t preach and force your views onto other people.

      Nobody like a militant harpie screaming at them no matter what the cause.

      I also can’t believe someone hasn’t written “nom nom nom” in a post yet.  Disappointing.

    • The Original Oz says:

      10:48am | 09/03/11

      Nom Nom Nom :o)

    • AdamC says:

      12:11pm | 09/03/11

      Elphaba, I agree. I used to be vegetarian many years ago. Then I stopped. The problem with vegan activists like Geoff here is that they can never seem to properly value the fact that people like meat. A lot.

    • Reg says:

      01:32pm | 09/03/11

      I have a question.

      Did we have those grinding back molars before we stopped being vegetarians?

      Or did we develop them because of the gigantic advantages gained from eating cooked food?

      Far more likely they were there because we needed to grind the raw bones in order to access the nutrients. The cooking made a greater portion of the food digestible so it would appear that eating more meat was shown to be advantageous.

      Do lions have large molars?

      You bet they do.

      It would therefore seem that to return to not eating meat would lead us back to the cave eating moss and doing silly things.

    • Elphaba says:

      01:52pm | 09/03/11

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with vegetarianism/veganism, so long as you do it properly.  Regular doctor’s appointments to make sure all is running smoothly.  People can do whatever they like - it’s the vigilante holier-than-thou attitude that pisses me off.

      Some people want to eat meat, and some don’t.  I just don’t understand why both sides need to be such pricks about it.

    • Reg says:

      03:56pm | 09/03/11

      My experience suggests that food requirements and digestibility are individual and alter with age.  Most certainly childrens’ taste and ability to process food advances with age, why not adult.

      Beef and whipped cream both give me a greater boost in my somewhat advanced years than do bread and vegetables. I don’t know whether it’s because my body needs these foods or because they are more easily assimilated.

      Going vegetarian leaves me weak and immobile and is doubtless fine for some, but why should someone need to go to a doctor regularly to find out whether a vegetarian diet was impacting poorly on them or not? It should be obvious.

    • Elphaba says:

      05:18pm | 09/03/11

      @Reg, lots of health problems are not ‘obvious’.  I’m simply stating that there is a right way to do it, which involves not Googling ‘vegetarian diets’ and hoping for the best.

      ‘Tired’ doesn’t always equal ‘iron deficiency’ for example - only a doctor can tell you whether this is the case.

    • Katherine says:

      09:23am | 09/03/11

      I work for a wholly Australian-owned agribusiness which includes merchandise, livestock, real estate, insurance and banking. The company employs over 3000 people across Australia. If the livestock industry were to be made redundant, so would the jobs of all these people, not to mention other agribusinesses, meatworkers, transport companies, vets, machinery retailers, butchers - and above all - small country towns that rely on cattle and sheep to provide them with a future.
      I think that lack of meat hinders some vegetarian’s ability to think straight sometimes.

    • MarK says:

      09:38am | 09/03/11

      Oh hush.

      Think of all the green jobs that would be created picking salad stuff.

      Millions of jobs. Billions probably.

      Hell if you stopped and considered it rationally there would be trillions..

      I for one welcome my new beetroot overlords and welcome their armies of carrots as liberators not as invaders.

    • Cows are feral says:

      09:55am | 09/03/11

      @Katherine

      But if it’s coming at too great a cost to the environment, Katherine?

      If something is unsustainable ....it shouldn’t be sustained, surely? Have a think about that.

      Besides, as some industries wane, others rise. We didn’t decide to ban the internet because email was going to cause job losses to millions of postal workers throughout the world, did we? And what came along? A technology industry with huge employment.

      It’s not meat or nothing. There are other things. Maybe high cholesterol is blurring your thinking.

    • Try the Lamb says:

      10:13am | 09/03/11

      Cows are Feral (well shouldn’t they be?  Who needs a domesticated cow inside the house?  Think of the size of the kitty litter and tray?)

      Prove that there is a cost to the environment.  Prove the cause and effect.  Until then it’s just speculation.

      It’s been sustainable for a hundred years, not a bad indication that it ‘is’ sustainable.

    • Shelly says:

      10:33am | 09/03/11

      @ Cows are feral - what does “sustainable” actually mean - in real terms when looking at meat production? Over what time frame do you consider that it is unsustainable? When do you think farming of meat should cease?

    • Cows are feral says:

      11:01am | 09/03/11

      Well little lamb, prove it eh?

      Do some reading. Try “Ethical Eating” by Peter Singer.

      Have a look at this 600-page UN report. http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.HTM

      How do you think the Australian landscape is shaping up after 100 years of hard-hoofed meat production?

      When did you last challenge your own beliefs on this issue? Start without preconditions, not “I like meat so I’m going to argue that it’s good for the environment cos no one is going to take my steak away from me”.

      I used to eat meat. I probably thought just like you. I looked at the FACTS and I changed my opinion.

      Anyone who is vulnerable to reason and logic would do the same.

    • Rev says:

      11:06am | 09/03/11

      @ Cows are feral

      IF
      Unsustainable = shouldn’t be sustained
      AND
      Human life = unsustainable
      THEREFORE
      Have a think about that.
      You can go first drinking the Kool-aid if you like.

    • Tim says:

      11:17am | 09/03/11

      Cows are Feral,
      I’ve read Singer’s book. He makes some good points but does get lost in other places. Not convinced.
      Try reading Simor Fairlie’s: Meat - A Benign Extravagance for a different point of view.
      When did you last question your beliefs without starting with “Meat is Murder”?

      I’ve looked at the facts and come up with a different opinion, logic FTW.

    • JohnT says:

      12:42pm | 09/03/11

      Name me a mainstream vegetable or fruit that is grown on uncleared land.

    • Kevin says:

      09:28am | 09/03/11

      I think cannabalism is the way to go.  It would simultaneously address food shortages and over population.

    • Jason Todd says:

      11:01am | 09/03/11

      To paraphrase the great Billy Connolly. First we eat the prisoners and take care of jail overcrowding, then we eat the homeless and destitute to take care of that problem. Then we stop and think, “Shit; the homeless could have lived in the prison”.

      On a more serious note, it’s very easy to point out supposed problems with our current systems, but there is no assurance that the proposed solution to this is any better than the system we have to start with. Sure, factory farming may not be ideal, but to tell six billion people that they now have to live on lettuce alone? Is that really the solution?

    • Chad C Mulligan says:

      12:00pm | 09/03/11

      No no Jason.  Didn’t you listen to Lemmy?

      Eat The Rich, Eat The Rich, Bite Down on the Son of a Bitch.

    • H says:

      09:38am | 09/03/11

      Thank you Geoff Russell for a well-argued article.

      It’s interesting that few of the commentators care to try and challenge your argument. No, their knee-jerk reaction is simply, “someone wants to make me eat less meat! He must be a greenie lefty hippy socialist! I’ll try and piss him off by posting a comment about how I love steak!!”

      Some people you just can’t reach. But hopefully there have been other readers whose minds are more open.

    • soz says:

      12:21pm | 09/03/11

      If it is not a quote it does not need quotation marks.

    • A Dose of Reality says:

      10:12am | 09/03/11

      Yet another rant by someone to push an evangelical agenda!  humans are omnivorous - get over it! 

      You’d have much more impact making suggestions on alternative meat sources (farming kangaroos?).

      The last paragraph says it all, and destroys any merit that might be construed from the rest of the article by exposing just how construed it was in the first place.

    • jo says:

      10:19am | 09/03/11

      As to comments by meat eaters about, us vetetarians and vegan, eating vegetables, If you people cant tell the difference between an animal and a plant, thats your problem. A cow is no different to my cat, they feel pain and sadness just like you and I.
      We have to eat plants to survive, dont try to tell me that a plant, suffers as much as a cow does.
      Say what you like. to defend your side,  eating animals is murder. which ever way you spin it.  At least I can enjoy my meal knowing that no animal has had to suffer for my meal.
      Don’t attempt to put me down for the very fact that I defend these poor animals that cant defend themselves. Mabe if people started having compassion for animals, it would be a start towards having compassion in a whole lot of other things, just because people have been eating meat for a long time. Does not make it right.

    • Jim says:

      10:39am | 09/03/11

      “At least I can enjoy my meal knowing that no animal has had to suffer for my meal.”.....so, land clearance to grow your food has never hurt animals? Transporting said food in big trucks along highways has never hurt animals? Introduced plant species have never hurt animals? Introduced animals to control introduced pests eating introduced plants have never hurt anything?

      100,000 years of evolution and you’re saying we got it all wrong?

      Maybe we should all go vego, then slaughter all the useless cattle, sheep, pigs, poultry etc in one fell swoop and dump them in your neighbourhood smile

    • Markus says:

      10:45am | 09/03/11

      How about this to defend my side? Eating animals is murder, and I am okay with that. That you aren’t is your problem, not mine.
      I can fully enjoy my meal not caring what you, or anyone else, thinks.

    • The Original Oz says:

      10:51am | 09/03/11

      Plants feel pain too

    • Tim says:

      11:11am | 09/03/11

      How do you know how much a plant suffers?
      What is your definition of suffering?
      Why is the death of a plant any less important?
      Why is animal life more important than plant life?
      This is the problem with the anthropomorphism of animals. They’re not human, so stop trying to give them human characteristics.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      11:13am | 09/03/11

      Crayfish don’t feel pain smile

    • Matilda says:

      11:48am | 09/03/11

      ditto what Jo said

    • Jason Todd says:

      12:08pm | 09/03/11

      Jo is right, eating animals is murder! It is a good thing we have animal jails (also called zoos) to lock up all of the animal serial killers we come across. The only problem is, it isn’t being policed as rigidly as I would like. My neighbour has a dog that BLATANTLY AND FLAGRANTLY eats beef and chicken that has been murdered just to provide his nourishment with utter disregard for his crime. I suggest that there might be many more of these animal murderers living right under our very noses! Jo, can you suggest an appropriate body that I can persue to ensure that this dog is locked up for his crime and prosecuted to the full extent of the law? Is there a hotline that we can call in tips to when we see an animal eating meat? I just want to make sure that these cold blooded murderers are locked up where they belong.

    • Tator says:

      02:10pm | 09/03/11

      To utilise the term reductio ad absurdum with regards to Jo’s comments, she would have no issues with humans killing off all the natural carnivores in the world because they inflict probably as much pain on animals, if not more due to their killing methods than humans do, so bye bye all sharks, whales, dolphins, bears, cats, dogs, hyenas, raptors, bats, crocodiles, alligators, caimans, snakes, owls and tasmanian devils to name a few.

    • LauraBoBaura says:

      10:34am | 09/03/11

      Tim Flannery’s interest is just as vested as yours Geoff. Best to not start throwing stones inside that ecofriendly, solar powered recycled glass house of yours hey?

    • Geoff Russell says:

      11:40am | 09/03/11

      For the record. I make a living writing computer software. Animal Liberation has never paid me.

    • LauraBoBaura says:

      11:54am | 09/03/11

      You aren’t making money off your book then? That was what I was referring to.

    • Geoff Russell says:

      12:55pm | 09/03/11

      As it happens ... no!  With a little luck, I might break even. I didn’t
      write the book to make money, I wrote it because I was appalled at
      CSIRO misrepresenting their research and promoting an eco-enemy,
      animal-enemy, health-enemy diet.

    • soz says:

      03:13pm | 09/03/11

      Sweet, can I have a free copy then Geoff?

    • Judge Holden says:

      03:34pm | 09/03/11

      @Geoff Russell: It’s been my long held opinion that one’s ideology can also be classed as a vested interest. Just because you receive no remuneration from you work does not necessarily mean that your view isn’t tainted by unreasonable bias. I put it to you that you will pick and choose which data or examples are favourable to your point of view whilst disregarding or reducing the weight of examples which are contrary to your beliefs.

      For example, in yoru above article you forgot to mention that crop farmers in developing nations are even more likely to set fire to the land to prevent reforestation than are beef farmers, and this is a practice which is very rare in developed countries like ours. For the most part cattle in Australia are grazed on pastoral lands not suited to arable cropping and not terribly useful for carbon sequestration.

      You also forgot to mention that rainforests are being cleared and so food grains can be turned into ethanol fuel for westerners to pump into their Prius and the effect that this is having on grain prices.

      I find it amusing that you are labelling Flannery irrational, when you aren’t exactly a poster boy for pragmatic and reasonable debate.

      I personally belive that Australians eat too much meat. I agree that this fact is causing problems in our health. But the answer isn’t veganism, or vegetarianism, it’s moderation.

    • Matilda says:

      04:54pm | 09/03/11

      @ soz
      I’d be happy to purchase a copy for you and send it to you if you want one for free.
      It’s a great read. Geoff uncovers the truth about CSIRO’s “well-being”, scientifically proven diet.

    • Geoff Russell says:

      05:03pm | 09/03/11

      Judge Holden: Most of the worlds deliberate large fires are livestock based ... though there is certainly plenty of slash and burn agriculture. The big livestock burns are easier to spot and measure with satellites precisely because they do far more damage. You can find references to data in my BNC article:

      http://bravenewclimate.com/2010/01/05/boverty-blues-p1/

      But just think about it. If you are a peasant burning to crop, then you will generally burn enough for your needs ... a peasant can’t crop a huge area. But if you are running cattle, then you may have a huge area under your control which you burn. In Australia, most of the savanna burning (about 60 percent ... according to one estimate) is for livestock ... its called pasture managment and it is a huge annual conflagration.

      http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.ecolecon.2007.07.012

      A Punch article doesn’t allow time to carefully consider opposing views, but if you look at my stuff on bravenewclimate.com where there is plenty of time to lay out evidence, I don’t think I cherry pick ... I don’t have to.
      Your claim about burning in Australia for beef being rare is simply not true ... you forgot the top end.  It’s hard to put a figure on it, but plenty of cattle in Australia are grazed on croppable land. Consider the 70 million hectares that was cleared for sheep and cattle. How much is croppable? If it needed to be cleared it could probably be cropped, but running animals is easier.  I don’t think my ethical views are getting in the way of my judgement. My ethics tells me pig and chicken farms are way more cruel than cattle stations, so why am I picking on Flannery’s cattle obsession? Because my judgement is that cattle are a much bigger problem in dealing with climate change and that is the main game. It is a dilemma for me that some people may decide to switch from beef to chicken ... a defensible position on climate change grounds but a horrible ethical choice for the chickens.

    • Rob G says:

      10:52am | 09/03/11

      I understand the American greenies are erecting a statue to Wild Bill Hickock for his decimation of the American buffalo.  The buffalo almost changed global warming in the 19th century with its farting. Without Wild Bill, we would be living in firey terror now days. Thank God, kangaroos dont fart.
      Oh and on Flannery….I would like to see him sitting in the dry river bed of the Murray River.. like he predicted. What an ass! Some people are gullible!

    • Reg says:

      01:11pm | 09/03/11

      Kangaroos don’t FART? Without camel dung the wandering nomadic races would have nothing to cook by or to keep the cold night at bay, so I guess kangaroo dung would be a reasonable substitute.

      What’s this about Buffalo’s changing global warming in the nineteenth century?  I assume the figures you have that prove this have taken into account the threats that were substituted in their place?

      ONE chimney of 24 hours of belching smoke = 1000 buffaloes or so ?

    • danny says:

      02:37pm | 09/03/11

      @robG get right in there man all of Aus. is right behind you, same so for his 2 men 1 tinnie mate (ROY) - they are both fraudulent warmists

    • PTom says:

      11:07am | 09/03/11

      Housing, Living Standard caused by more wealth and greater population is creating a food so-called crisis and thus price raise.

      Twenty years ago Thailand and the Philippines both exported rice and other food stuffs for ASEAN. Today only Thailand exports rice but that is shrinking too. If you really look at the world’s problem is the same here.  That is a grown middle class moving out of the cities to new housing estate which is built on fertile farm lands and farmers moving to the cities for a better way of life.

      Using Denmark example is bad it has very good fertile soil to grow both grains and fatten cattle so can produce more tonnage per acre. If Australia created farm belts (not just green belts) across it cities using the fertile soils and had higher rainfalls then we too could have higher production.

    • Dr B S Goh says:

      11:08am | 09/03/11

      This article is very disturbing. If Tim Flannery’s view is really that we should eat more meat to reduce the global food crisis then it is clearly wrong and conflicts with his role as Climate Commissioner

      The simple and most important factor in the global food shortage is increased population. In the past 40 yrs we were saved by the Green Revolution in food production. All my scientists friends and I do not believe we can have another Green Revolution. Only academic economists believe in fictional scientists who will discover the impossible.

      In 1974 I was the project engineer in a prototype farm in an Arid Region in Arizona USA. We produced three million pounds of tomatoes a year from ten acres of plastic greenhouses. This technologies developed in this prototype plant was used in Abu Dhabi to grow vegetables on a large scale.

    • Andrew says:

      11:26am | 09/03/11

      Dr? Sorry, don’t care, only want to read the words. If they don’t stand up without a prefix, what use are they?

    • PTom says:

      11:53am | 09/03/11

      Dr. I want our environment protected so we should stop looking junk data and look at all the facts.
      Where does all the water, electricity, fertilizer and plastic come from? Desale plant, Power Station, Cows and Oil yep growing tomatoes has no impact to the environment would tomatoes reduce the greenhouse gas level by what it takes to grow them.

      While a cow on a farm requires what grass you now the same grass that regrow to help reducing green house gases.

    • Joel B1 says:

      11:08am | 09/03/11

      Why can I buy vegetarian sausages and hamburgers but can’t buy meat potatoes or carrots?

    • Markus says:

      11:53am | 09/03/11

      That is a genius new marketing idea.
      Instead of meat products that are actually tofu, do the opposite and have tofu products that are actually made out of meat.

      I could call it Fauxfu? (Patent Pending!)

    • Anthony says:

      11:12am | 09/03/11

      Want to know the funniest part of all this? The Murray Darling Basin Commission has proposed to take 36% of water from irrigators. So you can also expect a 36% reduction in fruit and vegetables grown in this region. So we shouldn’t eat meat, cant grow veggies, running out of options here.

    • Dr B S Goh says:

      01:03pm | 09/03/11

      Anthony. Do not panic on shortage of water in Australia for growing vegetables and food. In 1974 was project engineer and my task was to develop strategies to maximize production in a prototype plant to grow vegetables in a Arid Region in Arizona, USA. With the technologies developed we can even grow vegetables on the Moon provided we have water, energy, CO2 (ha ha) etc. We produced three million pounds of tomatoes a year from ten acres of plastic greenhouses. You can read about it at: B S Goh, W.Y. Peng, T.L. Vincent and J.J. Riley, Optimal management of green house crops,  Hortscience, 10(1975) 7-11. This technology has been used to grow vegetables on a large scale in Abu Dhabi.

      In Australia we can grow all the food and vegetable we need from the Ord River Dam in Northwest Australia. So we are the Lucky Country in the World. But we cannot feed other nations if their populations keep growing. So best to plan for the worst and build up a New Navy to prevent a tsunami of boat people within 30 to 50 years.

      The bad things about meat consumption is the de-forestation on very large scale in Australia and in the Amazon, Brazil.

    • Interesting reply expected. says:

      01:14pm | 09/03/11

      Why is deforestation bad?

    • Geoff Russell says:

      04:00pm | 09/03/11

      Why is deforestation bad?

      Forests sequester carbon ... and also absorb methane and nitrous oxide.  For details about why reforestation is so critical, please follow the link in the article. Depending on your background, it may be hard reading, but its free. A more gentle but much longer explanation is given in “Storms of my Grandchildren” by the same author ($25).

    • Jugg says:

      04:12pm | 09/03/11

      So if farmers put more forest on their land or there were more forests elsewhere in the country would this address the issue?

    • Interesting reply expected. says:

      04:38pm | 09/03/11

      Thanks Geoff
      I knew that, I was just waiting for Dr BS to explain to me how we can keep pushing out more and more carbon dioxide and still continue to remove the natural carbon sinks that have maintained the Atmospheric balance up until the last 200 years.

    • Gregg says:

      01:22am | 10/03/11

      @Doc.
      Have you ever spent a summer in the Ord River area Doc. or ever been there any time?
      You might just find there is a limited growing season and the biggest crop being grown now is Sandalwood trees to export to India.
      And why would that be do you reckon?
      Just too bloody hot most of the year for the vegetable crops and then what can be grown there needs to be transported to where the people are that will want to eat it.
      Transport can cost a heap if you did not know.

    • Dr B S Goh says:

      01:25pm | 10/03/11

      Thanks Gregg for your comments. I understand that currently up to 60 different crops including bananas are grown in the Ord River. I agree with you that at present it is not a major supplier of vegetables to rest of Australia is because of transport costs.

      What I am saying here is that if climate warming becomes a real disaster in the World then the Ord River is our fallback position because of its abundant water and access o cheap gas.

      For your information the technologies we develop in Arizona, USA was used to grow vegetable in Abu Dhabi which has an average temperature hotter than the Ord. First time we grew the tomatoes the plants were luxuriant. But No fruits ! It was necessary to reduce the night temperatures by air conditioning and this led to superb productions of tomatoes. In the case of the Ord River we would in due course get access to abundant cheap gas as in Abu Dhabi

    • Amy says:

      11:22am | 09/03/11

      Geoff Russell, will you marry me?

      You give me faith in mankind when it’s needed most. When we’ve raped the environment of all it has, you and I won’t be standing at the end saying we didn’t try, an that’s all we can do.

      Disregard the negative comments and keep fighting for what’s right, we may be the minority but there’s always hope smile

    • danny says:

      02:43pm | 09/03/11

      @amy- utter piffle, but you are young!

    • Amy says:

      03:51pm | 09/03/11

      How old am I?

    • James says:

      11:50am | 09/03/11

      Ah the usual noise from the empty vessels, bong bong bong duh duh duh.  Tim Flannery is doing his best under tremendous pressure from a tidal wave of stupidity and ignorance, we should cut him some slack.  Although I agree with the premise of this piece.

    • grumpy old man says:

      12:21pm | 09/03/11

      some people have their BS production machines on overdrive today!
      basic facts:
      1.people copulate and breed, generally they breed more than is needed to replace themselves, so the population grows.
      2. People have molars for a reason.
      3. our stomachs are designed to eat meat to get protein and trace elements that are found in meat.
      4. Western society probably does eat too much meat, and could potentially enjoy better health with lower meat content in their diet.
      5. Carbon Dioxide in the air is what triggers the breathing reflex, and our bodies need a certain amount of C02 to prosper.
      6. One decent volcanic eruption can wipe out years of reduced man made C02 emissions.

    • Shane says:

      12:22pm | 09/03/11

      I love eating animals, it’s not my fault that they’re made of meat. Hmmm, tasty, tasty meat.

    • Ripa says:

      01:45pm | 09/03/11

      I tried being a vege for about 2 weeks, i fell for this girl at Uni, who was one and *I* had to be one, couldn’t do it. We eat meat 2-3 times a week always have, giving it up left me with no energy.
      FYI
      Aussie farmers direct is having a special on their meat trays 50% off until March 26th!

    • John says:

      02:30pm | 09/03/11

      Why are Vegetarinazis so intent on converting people - they have this Messianic complex.  Why in hell can’t they just live their lives and leave others alone to live theirs.  To paraphrase Oscar Wilde - “spare me the cheap severity of abstract ethics”

    • michael j says:

      03:36pm | 09/03/11

      Well did anyone see/or remember the film SOYLENT GREEN staring Charlton Heston,we could have an abundance of fish flavoured chicken sticks or chicken flavoured fish sticks,after a career as a slaughterman i don’t eat a lot of meat any-more ,its a bit too dear,,but i sometimes wonder if the industry is still as cruel
      as it was ,,i could tell some truths,show some photos,but they would probably offend somebody,,where as some school that’s been napalmed doesn’t seem to cause much problem,,,,a question for any experts out there,
      Why do CALF’S CRY as they are about to die??????

    • Jugg says:

      03:57pm | 09/03/11

      How do you know they do?  All of them?

      Clearly you don’t know why though, so no basis for empathy/sympathy?

    • Reg says:

      04:20pm | 09/03/11

      Jugg; “How do you know they do? (Cry) All of them “

      Yep, all of them.

    • michael j says:

      04:48pm | 09/03/11

      i killed 100,00 of them it just used to make me wonder/still do, there was always a lot of speculation amongst the older blokes,,? it was once believed fish felt no pain because they were cold blooded,, op ion these days is they do feel pain??

    • Jason Todd says:

      05:31pm | 09/03/11

      Have the calves stopped screaming Michael J? You fly back to school now. Fly, fly, fly.

      You may just find the answer you are looking for.

    • Ray says:

      04:03pm | 09/03/11

      Geoff Russell is long on assertion but short on fact. If he had his way, he would close the beef and mutton farms and erect 130 metre tall windmills in their place. The result would be more anaemic people from lack of iron and other minerals in their diet, more deaf and neurotic people from the persistent windmill noise, more deaths from pneumonia and other cold-exposure diseases from the poor being unable to afford electricial heating because of exorbitant electricity prices.

    • Reg says:

      04:14pm | 09/03/11

      Well they don’t know they’re about to die so that the end of that. They do however know that they’re missing their mommies, so perhaps that why calves cry.

      Pigs are even worse, but it’s not because they know they’re about to be stuck rather vigorously, it’s because they don’t like being restrained.

      Vegetables fortunately scream in silence and no-one notices their tears.

    • michael j says:

      07:16pm | 09/03/11

      Nah well everyone has a job to do,,and we have to be able to do all jobs,
      the calf’s have been away from mom for quite some time after the sale yards,transport and such,cows,steers,bulls react differently in the knocking box which has a hole cut in the end,sometimes ,smelling the blood they put their nose up to it,making it easier to hit them in the middle of the head with the pin gun,a bit like a nail gun that fires a retractable pin the size of your middle finger,,i think this system has changed in some meat-works,,,but calf’s would have water streaming down their face from the corner of their eyes and i have only ever seem it in the knocking box,,just makes me wonder why,some of us used to talk about it ,,we have no theory ,just wonder,,
      Pigs are knocked out with a set of electric ear muff’s to render them unconscious so when they are hung upside down on the chain and have the knife inserted ,,must be accurate,,the heart is still beating so all the blood is pumped out or the carcass will be inedible,,, year well
      still wondering,,thanks for the interest,,,

    • Penelope Bassett-Scarfe says:

      05:02pm | 09/03/11

      If we were to plant organic crops on the 3.5 billion tillable acres on the planet we could sequester a big chunk of the GHG’s in our atmosphere. At the moment we have 1 billion people on the planet who go to bed hungry every night and a child dies every 6 seconds from Malnutrituin. The grain fed to the livestock industry could feed 2 billion people, so we feed animals instead of people because of our carniverous habits..
      Also if you want to check the facts there is ample iron, B12, vitamins and minerals and calcium in plant based food, you just need to check out the top doctors and physicians around the planet who are helping people with cancer, diabetes, cardio vascular problems, etc by putting their clients onto a plant based diet to recover.. 
      Plants do not contain the bad fats that cause all the health issues we have on a huge scale globally. And it appears to me that the hospitals are full of meat eaters.
      The recent global disasters should be a wake up call to everyone, that what we are doing is not helping our environment. and our planet which is our home.
      Methane is one of the hottest and shorter lived being at least 72 times hotter over a 10-20 year period, and nitrous oxide mainly from animal waste products is about 300 times more potent than all the cars trucks and all the transport in the world put together. If we address the shorter hotter greenhouse gases immediately - that is the livestock industry, we can cool things down fast giving us time to adopt new green technology

    • LC says:

      09:14am | 10/03/11

      “The recent global disasters should be a wake up call to everyone, that what we are doing is not helping our environment. and our planet which is our home. “

      Because there were no floods, bushfires, cyclones, droughts, species extinctions etc until global warming became an issue ~20 years ago right?

      Right?

    • jo says:

      05:19pm | 09/03/11

      Hey jim
      your points about “Land Clearance” and Pest Control” does not justify animal suffering, Also “100 000 years of meat eating’ doesn’t either.

      Today food animals are pumped with antibiotic causing antibiotic resistance in people eating them. Also they the food animals are pumped with pesticides and growth harmones, Also food animals are kept in cages so small, they can’t even turn around. Also the cages are stacked on top of on another
      Your last paragraph suggest you think food animals are useless if they are not your dinner.
      your comment that we should all turn vegan and slaughter these animals and dump them in my neighbourhood,  is supposed to mean what?? If we all turned vegan we would let the animals live instead of slaughtering them as you suggest
      Also don’t give me that old hat about eating vegetables. its not the same as eating an animal. mabe you think it is. but its the lesser of the two evils.

      So what, you keep feeling sorry for those poor plants, but haven’t you forgot about the food animals

    • Jim says:

      08:40pm | 09/03/11

      No jo…farmers don’t keep these animals alive for the fun of it. If everyone turned vego overnight these animals would be rendered useless…millions upon millions would have to be slaughtered. Not that it’ll ever happen…being vego is a personal choice, good for you. Just don’t try and foist it upon anyone else.

    • Matilda says:

      05:26pm | 09/03/11

      “Hansen’s reforestation and methane reduction imperative requires the elimination of a surplus and unhealthy food - meat. This big task may not possible with an MLA fellow-traveller as Climate Commissioner. “

      Working from a grass-roots level, there is hope. I’ve been involved in many activities that promote the healthy plant-based diet as a solution to abate climate change, environmental devastation, biodiversity loss, oceanic dead zones, pollution of waterways etc., and people are genuinely interested in learning more about how their food choices affect the planet and there is a growing interest in trying out vegan food. And there is also growing interest in community-based organic vegetable gardening.

      Change for the better is happening - it doesn’t matter whether the Climate Commissioner is friendly with the MLA or not.

    • Dave C says:

      05:53pm | 09/03/11

      I love red meat and I grew up on a sheep and cattle farm and I also cannot stand the holier than thou I am so much better twaddle of extreme vegans. However they do have 1 small point and that is the welfare of the animals before they die. I cant see any need for excessive unnecessary cruelty to any animal while its alive. As I said I love meat but I dont like animal cruelty. Just as I cry when I think of the F*#KING BASTARDS in Asian countries that engage in bear baiting and dancing bears and I also well up at the thought of “puppy farms” I cant see the need for animal cruelty in meat production.

      On Mum and Dads farm the cattle and sheep stood around in large paddocks most of their lives (except when they went to the years to be vaccinated/drenched/shorn etc) and ate grass and drank from a dam. They looked dumb but contented and generally up until they had to be killed their life was a pretty good one. (The sheep had to be muelsed but that is not as bad as having blow flies lay eggs in the wool on their bums and those maggots eating the sheep alive.)

      Nowadays if what I read is true the sheep and cattle (and chickens and pigs) are put in tiny jail cell type feedlots to eat drink shit and then die at the earliest possible time their whole lives and that makes me sad.

      What I say to the big food companies is if you want the vegans to win then keep up the factory farming because eventually people wont eat meat if they see how its produced. Please cant we go back to the old days where the animals were fattened up in comfortable pain free conditions so we the meat eaters can enjoy our steak/chops/roast guilt free.

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      05:08pm | 10/03/11

      “tiny jail cell type feedlots to eat drink shit ”  Isn’t that what has always happened to livestock throught northern Europe during the winter?  The effluent is captured in tanks, brews and sprayed on fields in the spring.  Isn’t this organic farming EU style?  Maybe not tiny jail cells but their barns aren’t that big.

      How about this for a history of meat. It’s always been relatively cheap to produce but the ticket clippers (like the EU aristocracy) wouldn’t keep their greedy, bossy and violent mitts off. This drove us proles to take off to the new worlds and drove us to never let starvation happen again. Constant growth made sure that new ticket clippers and tyrants couldn’t get a foothold. Of course this resulted in a massive population explosion. The food ticket clippers are back. And it’s going to get very ugly.

    • Kika says:

      08:20pm | 09/03/11

      If everyone reduced the amount of meat they eat, we can save so much in resources, the environment AND our health! If only a fraction of the grain used in factory farming was used to feed the poor.
      We need to promote plant based diets more. Meat and dairy based diets are the worst on the planet and only lead to our chronic health issues like diabetes and heart disease etc.

      No one is saying go cold turkey. Just try with 2 meat free nights per week and you’re already doing something - even if you don’t feel like you have.

    • LC says:

      09:04am | 10/03/11

      “No one is saying go cold turkey. “

      Um…thats what a lot of preachy vegetarians/vegans say. PETA, just for one example.

    • Tim says:

      09:06am | 10/03/11

      Kika,
      that’s the problem. The majority of grain fed to animals isn’t fit for human consumption. And anyway if these farmers stopped farming cattle do you honestly think they would automatically swap to grain farming to feed the poor? No, they still want to make a profit. Heard of biofuels?

    • jo says:

      08:50am | 10/03/11

      Jim I am finding it hard to follow your logic
      “Millions upon Millions of food animals would have to be slaughterd,” Is that any worse than the cruelty food animals are subjected too.  millions of animals are slaughtered daily and millions are bred daily into a life of misery .
      You will have to come up with a better argument than that.
      Im sure if people decided not to slaughter animals for food,  they would come up with a more humane solution than yours. you have the right to eat whatever you want its none of my business.
      And I have the right to defend an animal
      that is reduced to a piece of meat, that in reality eats, drinks, sleeps, feels joy, terror, boredom just like we do.

    • Pip says:

      04:18pm | 10/03/11

      To be upfront I work at Meat and Livestock Australia (MLA), a producer-owned company that works in partnership with industry and government to achieve a profitable and sustainable red meat and livestock industry for Australia.  I wanted to clarify a few points that have been raised in Geoff’s article and the subsequent discussion.

      * The ability to sustainably feed the world is an important discussion and while the red meat industry’s views differ to Geoff Russell’s (who is fundamentally opposed to eating meat) we want to have an open and honest discussion about sustainably producing food with the available resources in Australia (limited arable land and water)
      * Cattle and sheep farmers make their living on the land and are focussed on ensuring the land continues to support grazing.  This means that most producers invest in maintaining or improving the natural resources on their property – what is good for their business is also good for the environment
      * When looking at these issues its important to understand that Australia has a different production system to many other global beef and lamb producers, so looking at global averages or examples such as the one Geoff gave of the Netherlands is misleading and irrelevant
      * Since 1990 emissions from producing beef in Australia have decreased by 6.5% per kilogram, due to improved productivity. More details can be found at http://www.RedMeatGreenFacts.com.au for those interested
      * Throughout the 1800s and first half of the 1900s there was a belief that Australia should be farmed with European methods and government required land managers to clear land which undoubtedly led to land degradation.  Today, however, farmers are focussed on maintaining or improving natural resource management on farm. The planting of trees and shrubs can alleviate problems such as erosion and soil structure decline, making the land more productive as well as increasing biodiversity
      * Fire is used as a control in Northern Australia, just as it has been used throughout history by Indigenous Australians to prevent large scale wild fires, which have a much larger environmental impact than controlled burning
      * In Australia cattle are predominantly raised on grass, with a small number spending part of their life on grain for consistency in supply and eating quality.  No cattle are entirely grain fed in Australia
      * The grain that cattle are fed is not fit for human consumption – either grains that are unpalatable to us or grains that don’t meet the standards for human consumption

      If people are interested in learning more about the Australian red meat industry and the environment they can visit http://www.RedMeatGreenFacts.com.au

    • Geoff Russell says:

      02:25pm | 11/03/11

      Hi Pip. Nice to see MLA try to respond.  There is a little bit of truth in all your points, but not enough to stand up to any kind of close examination.
      * The point of the Netherland example was that meat (not necessarily beef) can be produced far more efficiently in factory farms than by grazing. Factory farms are horrid, but not inefficient. If you want to expand global meat production (obviously I don’t), then choosing beef is silly ... which is precisely why most of the world’s meat expansion has been in pig and chicken meat over the past 2 decades. To attempt, for example, to replace any significant amount of pig meat with grass-fed beef would require a huge increase in deforestation. 
      * The beef industry consumes over a million tonnes of barley annually. Maybe Australian’s don’t like barley (except as beer!), but it is certainly fit for human consumption. But the real problem is that the feed is grown for the purpose on land that could equally well grow food that people do find palatable ... but your industry outbids others for those growers.  Who wants to grow food for some Indian slum-dog purchasing power when you can grow barley for an industry which supplies rich Japanese or corpulent Aussies who will pay through the nose?  Livestock has given the global rich a way of diverting even more of the planet’s resources away from the poor.

      Another commenter tried a similar line arguing the feedlots use “weather damaged wheat”.  Of course they do, but what percentage? Does anybody really think huge feedlots sit around waiting for enough bad weather somewhere so that they can fill their feed troughs? ... imagine putting in an order and your supplier came back and said, “sorry, too much good weather this week, no weather damaged wheat available”.
      “No worries”, you’d say, the cattle can wait.
      * I never said cattle lived entirely on grain, I said they went through 4 million tonnes ... just being finished!  Add in the dairy industry and the amount is over 6 million tonnes annually (ABARE)
      going to cattle ... that’s three times more than 22 million Australians
      eat ... but we still get on average more of our daily calories from cereals than meat. In fact (FAOstat) wheat provides more protein (21g) per day to Australians than beef (17g)! 
      * Sure some cattle farmers plant trees, but others are still knocking down native woodland in Qld but now call it “fodder harvesting”. Its the same bulldozers and the same chains. 
      * Lastly you didn’t deal with the fact that your products (along with pig meat) cause about 6,000 new cases of bowel cancer annually in Australia ... 16 people per day.

    • bog cog says:

      04:40pm | 10/03/11

      Most grain-fed animals are raised on pasture. Lot feeding is used to finish the animal and to provide a consistent higher grade product. As to grain production, a lot of feedlots use lower quality grain (e.g weather damaged wheat) and by-products (e.g. canola meal, brewers grain) for stockfeed. Other feed grains such as lupins are an important part of the cropping rotation.
      As to the the gases released by ruminants,  all the gases come from feed that absorbed their gases from the atmosphere, therefore the cycle is close to carbon neutral, the main problem is in its form of methane.
      Lastly, many vegetarians claim we should replace animals farms with grain growing ignoring the fact that a large percentage of agricultural land is not arable ( i.e. croppable).
      Articles such as this play well with gullible folk in a highly urbanised country such as Australia but has no connection with reality.

    • Dragon Lady says:

      03:48pm | 03/05/11

      Wow, you meat eaters get so preachy and defensive. You respond to a well-researched, factual article with silly emotional attacks. You drink the Kool-Aid like good little consumers.

    • Eduardo Vargas says:

      08:12am | 16/12/11

      I completely disagree with this article

 

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