Marriage equality is often portrayed as being an agenda of those who oppose the Christian faith and despise heterosexual marriage.

All God's children

But as a married, heterosexual, evangelical Christian pastor and theologian I support the legislative amendment to allow same-sex couples the right to formalise their commitments in the legally-recognised covenant of marriage.

Privileging one theology over another

While personally I would gladly conduct and bless same-sex weddings, some of my evangelical brothers and sisters who cannot go that far still support this legislative amendment.

The basis of our shared support lies in the doctrines of religious freedom and the separation of church and state.

These beliefs, for which some of my Baptist forebears endured violent persecution, teach us firstly that it is a Christian duty to defend the right of others to follow their own conscience before God, free from coercive attempts to impose conformity of belief or practice; and secondly that the state should not privilege the convictions of any particular religious tradition, even a majority tradition, over the convictions of those who dissent from it.

It follows from these beliefs that Christians can hold that while same-sex marriage may not be allowed in the church, it should still be provided for by the state. It is, of course, these same doctrines that underpin the churches’ right to pursue their own distinctive beliefs and practices if the state provides for things they disagree with.

As an evangelical pastor and theologian, I am committed to the authority of the Bible. If I had all day, I could carefully take you through the Biblical cases for and against, but that is debate for the Church, not for the State.

The State ought not to privilege anyone’s reading of scripture, including mine, in reaching its conclusions on this issue. Anyway, as I am sure you are aware, the level of robust debate in the churches makes it clear that neither biblical case is a lay-down misère.

Commitment in relationships is a value both church and state should uphold

Marriage has been practiced by almost every culture down through history. Christians have no more claim on it than anyone else.

The question at issue here is whether this almost universal human institution should be made more universal still by being opened up to those whose sexual orientation has previously excluded them.

Both Church and State can surely agree that prohibiting homosexual marriage has not and will not diminish the incidence of homosexuality in the community.

Both can surely agree that promoting sexual fidelity and family stability is preferable to fostering cultures of promiscuity and easy dispensability.

And most married couples, Christian and non-Christian alike, will acknowledge that fidelity and stability are not easy and would be far more difficult still without the vows we have taken and the explicit social endorsement and support of our marital relationships.

To criticise the homosexual community, as many do, for its alleged promiscuity while at the same time working to deny them access to the social structures that encourage and support fidelity for the rest of us is surely disingenuous.

Even if I still believed, as I once did, that homosexual love-making was always a sin, I think I would still find myself compelled to conclude that anything we can do to promote the cause of faithful stable relationships in the homosexual community is, at the very least, a significant step in the direction of righteousness.

And surely if we can foster the valuing and practice of marriage in a sector of the community that has previously been excluded from it, that can only increase the valuing and practice of marriage by the community as a whole. And that, it seems to me, ought to be a cause about which Church and State can agree.

Gay marriage will benefit the institution of marriage not undermine

We often hear that gay marriage undermines heterosexual marriage. I have reflected on this at length, and it has become more and more apparent to me that this charge is an unfortunate, albeit somewhat understandable, example of scapegoating.

There is no doubt that heterosexual marriage is under threat, but the threat is from within, not from without. The real threats to marriage come from the commodification of sex and relationships, and the consumerist mindset that reduces everything to ephemera to be replaced as soon as a new model appears promising greater satisfaction.

But it is an almost universal human phenomena that when the things we hold dear are under threat from things we feel powerless to tackle, we deflect the blame onto a scapegoat, a more readily dentifiable “other” who we make the face of all that we fear and then crucify to appease our wrath.

Surely, though, there is no threat from same-sex marriage. What we have here is a group who are recognising the value of marriage, of faithful lifelong vowed relationships, and asking for the right to participate in the benefits of that.

Some heterosexual people are asking them why they would want it and suggesting that marriage is an outmoded institution that they are better off without. So surely when a group who have been stereotyped as the champions of hedonistic promiscuity begin extolling the virtues of marriage, that can only increase the regard in which marriage is held by the community as a whole.

Why I changed my views

Finally, I think it’s important to point out that I haven’t always held the views I hold today. I was quite homophobic as a young man, after being the target of a male sexual predator in my early teens.

As a conservative Christian, it was easy to find biblical justifications for my fear and hostility. But I married young and my wife left me for another man before I was 24. And as a divorcee, I found myself in a category of people who, according to my own biblical conservatism, were ruled out of marrying and confined to lifelong celibacy.

It was out there in that wilderness, and chaffing against the unfairness of it, that I began to look around to see who else was similarly excluded. For a conservative and homophobic young Christian, finding that I was standing alongside the gay community was a bit of a shock.

Now that I was being told that the Christian thing to do was give up sexual intimacy forever, I could see the injustice of what I had previously demanded of gay people.

I recognised that they didn’t choose to be gay any more than I chose to be divorced, and that they couldn’t become straight any more than I could become un-divorced.

And so it was out there, in that awkward and unexpected solidarity, that I discovered the biblical message of grace, the truth that God does not demand that we measure up to some pristine ideal before we can experience love and joy, but rather we are graciously accepted as we are, given new starts from where we are, and invited to journey with God’s blessing into all the fullness of life, including, if we are so called, the joys of sexual intimacy within the lifelong faithful covenant of marriage.

I am forever grateful that the Church and the State had changed their laws to allow divorcees to marry. Now, as a beneficiary of that, I am striving to achieve the same for my unexpected friends.

Postscript: This article reproduces the text of a presentation I made to a hearing of the Senate Inquiry into the Marriage Equality Amendment Act 2009. In that context, it was not relevant to detail the biblical basis of my views. However, one of the Senators, an active Christian from my own faith tradition, requested a supplementary written submission detailing the biblical case. That submission can now be found at http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/legcon_ctte/marriage_equality/submissions/sublist3/for/Sub_ef44a.pdf

109 comments

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    • T.Chong says:

      08:13am | 23/11/09

      As long as no one is hurt or exploited, physically, emotionally, mentally or any other way, than what business is it of the state if two gals or two guys want to get hitched?
      Society is not under threat, nor are hetero relationships under attack.
      The people who object to same sex marriage are the same type of people who want to bring back the divorce courts-ie people who get a creepy kick about knowing the intimate details of other peoples private lifes.

    • Barb says:

      09:30am | 23/11/09

      It’s people like Nathan who have destroyed the Anglican church in Australia. No wonder more and more Anglicans are converting to Catholicism because the Pope actually takes the Bible seriously. Churches that approve of gay marriage, women bishops, and abortion are dying. A true Christian would argue for no-fault divorce laws to be overturned - then Nathan’s marriage wouldn’t have ended and he wouldn’t of had to stand with the gay community.

    • Glenn says:

      09:33am | 23/11/09

      It is great to hear something so logical and well framed as this from someone of the church, I have much respect for someone that can take a stance completely opposite from those around them and remain as logical and true to their beliefs as you have demonstrated. I only hope your clear and we reasoned argument, both theologically and personally can rub off on some of your fellow church goers.

      This argument however is larger than just marriage. It is an equal rights issue, it is a fundamental cornerstone of western society, by denying one group the rights another group has access to without question shows that we are not a free society, one where your right to worship, associate and speak is guaranteed. If one right is not universal then what stops others from being taken away or only given to select groups.

      As a heterosexual male who has been to far to many weddings, I find it sad that some homosexual friends (both male and female) who attended these ceremonies, will never be in the position to ask me to attend their special day. To celebrate a life long commitment to one anther and receive the legal recognition that my ‘traditional’ married friends are entitled to without question.

    • Paul Horn says:

      10:08am | 23/11/09

      You sir are a walking tautology! Marriage was dealt a severe blow with the introduction of no fault divorce in the 70’s by progressive labour hacks! Since then it has gone from one degeneration to the next culminating in what we have now, the lowest form ie the debate over homosexual marriage.

      With the introduction of more and more degenerate progressive liberal legislation there has been a corresponding increase in the breakdown of the institution. How can you completely miss that point? You must be completely blind or have an alternate agenda!  The Government plays an extremely important role via legislation in protecting the marriage contract and it is that acknowledgement of the uniqueness of the institution that gives it its strength. Tragically the role Government is now playing is hell bent on its annihilation. 
       
      You say that allowing homosexuals to marry will only strengthen the institution and encourage monogamy and fidelity!! But who are you to define marriage as being exclusively monogamous? Please educate me how homosexuality in the biblical sense is more “moral” than polygamy, polyamorism or even bestiality?? Surely from a biblical viewpoint polygamy has far greater moral standing than homosexuality so why aren’t you bandstanding for this particular brand?? And if a man chooses to have an exclusive relationship with his pet dog would that also not be strengthening the traditional practice of monogamy???

      You are a strange fellow indeed to call yourself a pastor and then to argue the biblical case for homosexual marriage. I would be very interested indeed to see what verses you choose to support your erroneous stance!

    • Charity Box says:

      10:28am | 23/11/09

      A Evan gelical Pastor has changed his mind, as a whole on gay marriage because he divorced at 24 pffft ...big deal,as a gay man in a loving relationship,the only thing that I want my blessing on is what I have all ready,and who recognise my relationship are,My Bank,Medibank Private,My Insurance company,,My Super Company,Centalink,My Cardealer,My Doctor,My Gardener,My Cleaner,My Neigbours,My Family,His Family,My Friends,and his Friends,and our Dogs…I really dont need anything else,and either does the large Majority of the gay community.

    • Simon Ingram says:

      10:30am | 23/11/09

      Dear Nathan Nettleton.

      My greatest concern here is that you claim to be an “evangelical pastor and theologian, committed to the authority of the Bible.”
      - This statement is in complete disagreement with the other statements that you make in this article.

      The latter half of your statement “I could carefully take you through the Biblical cases for and against” same sex “marriage” is a lie. Throughout the entirety of the 66 books written by over 40 different authors over 1500 years that we refer to as “The Bible” there is not a single reference to God endorsing two women marrying each other or two men marrying each other, whilst there are many references to God finding homosexuality “detestable” and “perverse”.

      Your claim to be an “evangelical pastor and theologian, committed to the authority of the Bible” does not stack up against the other statements that you have made.

      However I do feel the greatest of sympathy and compassion for you as you have once been the target of a sexual predator, and your wife left you for another man. I can see where you are coming from and I feel empathy for the hurt and pain that you have experienced.

      Your wife leaving you for another man in no way means that you are banned from marrying again. Jesus’ comments in Matthew 5 & 19 include “except for marital unfaithfulness”. This is your situation.

      Jesus forgives you of all and heals your hurt & pain. You can trust in his whole word, all 66 books, as a real and practical final authority, that means what it says and says what it means. In this way you can stand on its promises as true and dependable. He is faithful and just.

      His richest blessings to you.

      In his service,

      Simon Ingram

    • Trjn says:

      11:06am | 23/11/09

      To all those saying that same-sex marriage shouldn’t happen based on Biblical views are completely missing the point here. It’s quite simple, marriage is not solely a Christian institution, so Christian views should not be representative of how the State treats marriage.

      For an evangelical Pastor to realise this and put aside his religious views on this matter shows that he understands the importance of seperating Church and State.

      Find a non-Biblical reason for why homosexuals should not enjoy the same rights as heterosexuals, and I will listen to you, but as a heterosexual athiest, I find it difficult to believe that anyone should not have access to the same rights and priveleges as the rest of the country.

    • Moose says:

      11:11am | 23/11/09

      Why do the churchies read these articles and post a view that has no relevence? The Gay community are not looking for the church’s approval, they are looking for an ok from the state to say ‘This is my partner, this is who I spend my life with, treat us like a couple as you would anyone else’.  And for the church to consistantly weigh into the argument saying how it’s unnatural and against the law of the bible - who gives a rats? You live your life however you like, but don’t tell me that my life is somehow of less value than yours because of some ‘holier than thou’ complex.

    • David says:

      12:03pm | 23/11/09

      Thank you Nathan for your wonderful blog, it gives me great hope for the future when people such as yourself make a stand. I find that Australia can be quite a hippocritical place: we pride ourselves in being a land of the freedom and yet we are great at selectively changing the definition of freedom. It’s people like Paul Horn (above) who embarress themselves and this country. I think Paul needs a history lesson: the bible has also been used in the past against racial equality and gender equality. Perhaps all otyhers (than Caucasian), and women should be re-subjugated then? Although I’m sure many would disagree much of the bible is allegorical, not literal. Thanks again Nathan.

    • Barb says:

      12:15pm | 23/11/09

      Moose - The “Churchies”  read these articles because if gay marriage becomes the law of the land our Christian kids will be taught in school that gay marriage is OK and that one day they’ll be able to marry their best mate. Also, Christian leaders who do so much for the community will begin to be penalised for saying gay marriage is wrong - this has already happened in Canada and England.

      Progressives tricked us into supporting gay civil unions but now it seems that was a ploy to one day get to gay marriage - perhaps civil unions should be made illegal given that they don’t seem to satisfy the gay community.

    • Susan says:

      12:21pm | 23/11/09

      To all the Christians who do not condone Nathan’s sentiment re same-sex marriage:
      Jesus once said to a crowd that wanted to stone an adulteress “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”.
      Maybe it’s best left to God to judge. I’ve always rather suspected that He quite likes homosexuals, in the same way as He quite likes rather everyone.

    • T.chong says:

      12:41pm | 23/11/09

      Sad that so many should base their lives on a collection of fables called their “bible”
      If you want to live according to this book,and its stories, - fine, go for it.
      But to expect the state in our secular 21st century society to also follow these tales ? NO.
      Hey devout christians, what say we give Leviticus 20,;10 a go,
      as Leviticus 20:13 is a definite.
      BTW what happened to” do not judge,lest you also shall be judged,” and “do unto others” or is that too wimpy?

    • Patrick says:

      12:48pm | 23/11/09

      Sure, lets repeal the no fault divorce laws. Lets see how the women voters like that.

    • TLC says:

      12:55pm | 23/11/09

      God has created us is that true?
      God is perfect , isn’t He?
      In that case if he created Homosexuals that mean it is right and holly.
      We can not disobey our God and make some laws that forbid
      homosexuality .
      It is sin to disobey His orders.
      If he make mistakes then he is no God at all, just one of us, so stop obeying his laws.

    • Ann says:

      12:58pm | 23/11/09

      Will God create something that is not perfect.
      How can you improved on perfection?
      God is never wrong!

    • John of Perth says:

      01:04pm | 23/11/09

      @Simon.
      The 66 is very close to 666 the number for Satan.
      Coincidence?

    • Scott Glennon says:

      01:07pm | 23/11/09

      Hi Nathan, I do hope you act on your unexpected views. I get the impression that some are mocking your article or are down right opposed. Nevermind though, for 5 years anti gay rights protestors have lined the streets during annual pride festivals.
      Gradually, this line has declined to be a gathering, bunch and now 5-10 people with cardboard cutouts. This decline has occured as group members witness the community support developing, for what was once an underground, illegal and shamed culture. Chosen religous beliefs however set in stone, can also evolve with humankind.

    • Trjn says:

      01:09pm | 23/11/09

      @Barb:
      Heaven forbid a child is exposed to a belief that is different from their parents. As a parent, you are able to teach your children what you like, but that doesn’t mean you are able to deny other children education just because it is contrary to your beliefs.

      The Christian viewpoint is not the only viewpoint, and on this matter the only time that Christian views have any meaning is when discussing if a Church wishes to conduct same-sex marriage ceremonies.

    • Brian Ward says:

      01:13pm | 23/11/09

      This is the first sensible thing I have ever read from a religious person. Thanks for your common sense and clear thinking.

    • davido says:

      01:28pm | 23/11/09

      Why would anyone want to get married? To anyone?

    • Liz says:

      02:10pm | 23/11/09

      Why not jsut abolish marriage..problem solved.

    • Bob says:

      02:44pm | 23/11/09

      So what if God made one mistake, we can live with that.

    • bec says:

      03:00pm | 23/11/09

      “one day they’ll be able to marry their best mate…”

      Oh snap, that won’t really happen, will it? HEAVEN FORFEND!!! I want my hypothetical kids to marry people they only vaguely disguise their distrust and contempt for.

    • The Realist says:

      03:01pm | 23/11/09

      I think you are some what confused

      ‘As an evangelical pastor and theologian, I am committed to the authority of the Bible.’

      ok no problem there
      except you basically contradict yourself for the rest of the article.
      you go on and say you would marry a gay couple.

      Are you reading the bible? 

      Which bit in Romans 1 dont you get?

      24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

      26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

      Im not saying that non christians believe this, infact non christians think it a joke. But you, as a Christian pastor are condoning this as natural and not a sin. You need to have a good hard look at the bible again mate. I would expect this from some dodgey anglican priest in brisbane not self confessed evangelical theologian. Im pretty sure the gay community couldnt give a stuff what christians say, but marriage is a church based practise. If you think it isnt and should be open to all im happy to call marriage ( M&F) is some thing else to placate the gay community.

      I think we should accept all people in the church and to accept that we are all sinners who need Gods love. But part of that is wishing to obey Gods Word, having an active homosexual relationship doesnt not obey Gods word, nor does excessive drinking, lying, cheating, stealing. Do christians do these thing? unfortunately yes. But they are forgiven if they confess thier sin to God ( not a preist).

    • Andrew says:

      03:02pm | 23/11/09

      Live and Let Live!  If it is not directly impacting You and is consensual then it is simply non of your business.  Marriage is a union between two people who love each other!!  The world needs more happiness, not trips to purgatory (if that’s what You believe).

    • T.Chong says:

      03:15pm | 23/11/09

      Andrew 4:02 Damn straight !  smile

    • a fair go for all says:

      04:16pm | 23/11/09

      According to the Bible, Jesus never said a word against gays.

      Interesting that Christians only ignore Jesus’ views and latch onto the Old Testament when it involves gays…

    • Chase Stevens says:

      04:41pm | 23/11/09

      I do not believe that there is a rational argument against Homosexual Marriage. I challenge anyone to provide me one. Also I think that if the state is going to legislate against gay marriage they should wash their hands of the institution entirely.

      It’s nice to read something from a religious person that doesn’t hate or discriminate against me.

    • Paul Horn says:

      05:36pm | 23/11/09

      Yes Susan Jesus did say “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” but you also forget to add his qualifying statement “Then neither do I condemn you, go and do not sin again”! Strange that hey? Amazing how we can misconstrue the bible to suit our own perverted bias!

      And as I have asked before of all you elites why is homosexuality elevated above every other type of degenerate relationship? Surely we should accord the same rights to bestialists, necrophiliacs, polygamists, polyamorists, animists you name it! The other week a woman was reported to marry her dead boyfriend! I mean what the hell goes through these idiots heads? Can someone play God and explain to me why homosexuality seems to the moral equivalent to heterosexuality standing above all other forms of relationships? By what or whose authority do you make these claims! Laughable.

      Secular fools state that Jesus said nothing about homosexuality but he said nothing about bestiality! So why are you not screaming and shouting for the rights of bestialists?? Hypocrites! Jesus did say that you would know that the end times are near when men marry men. I guess we are there now so we just have to wait.

      When you stand before God Pastor Nettleton best of luck in arguing your case as your argument ain’t from the side of Christ but rather the Devils. I think you know that.

    • Jesse says:

      07:33pm | 23/11/09

      I am rather concerned that here we have an ‘evangelical christian’ who seems to me; to be attempting theology based on the arguments of experience and culture, and abandoning scripture, and the tradition of interpretation which has stood for some (nearly) 2000 years.

      I wonder if you’re position would be incredibly different if, when you found yourself divorved, you appealed to the scripture (already quoted) stating that a divorcee can re-marry ? Surely you are arguing for others, based on the emotional anguish and personal hurt that you yourself see (in them).

      Brother, to have empathy for the marginalised, the discriminated and the oppressed is necessary; to feel their pain is vital if we are going to provide pastoral care for those Christ calls us to minister to; but should we jetison the scriptures in doing so?

      The arguments provided by the church for not sanctifying homo-sexual marriage will never find a friendly audience in an anti-christian secular society (which in itself is religion), yet, we need to continually and consistently restate the truths we maintain.

      Why are we (the church) afraid of being ‘offensive’ by stating the truth we believe. It is the contradiction that is post-modernism “tolerance”. Jesus Christ was not executed because he was nice, but because he was a political threat! Surely this is the example of maintaining true to what you believe to the very end!

      However, my biggest concern is this : if same sex unions are blessed by our government, then what will happen when a couple comes to a local church pastor and says “we want you to marry us”, and the pastor says “no, this is contrary to what the bible teaches and I can not.” ... How long until he’s in court facing a charge of discrimination?

    • Lisa says:

      07:43pm | 23/11/09

      The problem here is that all you religious people posting your negative comments think you’re better than everyone else, You look down your noses at others, judge people for their lifestyles and “Sins” and naively think you have life and eternity figured out….. Those don’t sound like the qualities of a decent human being to me. Get over your selves! I for one am glad that Nathan is open to other people’s views and accepts their lifestyles. Whether YOU PEOPLE think that gay marriage is a sin is irrelevant. It’s not up to you, and it won’t affect your life in the slightest if Bob and Phil down the street get married. Its up to each of us to live our lives the way we want to. Nathan thank you so much for showing me that not all religious people are narrow-minded idiots.  To Barb, If you want your children to be brainwashed into thinking that they are holier than everyone else and that gay people are evil, send them to church and sunday school and a fairy tale - teaching religious school, instead of a state school where children are taught fact, tolerance, life skills and important, relevant things like science, maths and language. I have had it up to the eyeballs with bigots, racists, homophobes and supremacists. Thank you Nathan for the refreshing change of pace. I wish there were more like you.

    • Chase Stevens says:

      08:10pm | 23/11/09

      Jesse if same sex marriage were to be legalised nothing would change for the church. They are free to practise their faith. It is a human right as is marriage.

    • luke says:

      09:16pm | 23/11/09

      Can someone supporting gay marriage please explain when marriage became a human right, or a sign of equality?
      Equality is being treated the same, not having on offer any institution or tradition. As a man I am not accepted in women’s toilets. As a working adult I don’t get student loans. And as a tall man I can’t sit in some small cars. Is this discrimination? Should everything be leveled?
      The UN Human Rights Charter makes no point about marriage.
      It does urge us all to treat each other equally. I support that, so I wonder if it isn’t a symbolic debate and a fight for legal rights.

    • Rod Swift says:

      09:16pm | 23/11/09

      I feel sad for some of the people who constantly bleat on about how God ordains marriage between a man and a woman, but yet don’t even understand what the bible REALLY says about marriage.

      People like Simon Ingram, above, for example.

      Here’s a quick and handy guide:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw

      Personally, if I can’t marry my boyfriend, I’m going to marry some salt!

    • elhombre says:

      03:44am | 24/11/09

      I only support gay marriage if both chicks are hot.

    • Tim says:

      08:03am | 24/11/09

      Hi, Luke. There’s no such thing as the UN Human Rights Charter. You may be thinking of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights ... although both of these DO include a right to marry. So I don’t know what you’re talking about. Maybe you’re just making stuff up. Also, your “analogies” are absurd.

    • Andrew says:

      08:12am | 24/11/09

      I find it sad that most religions are supposed to have foundations based on; compassion, tolerance and respect which seems to be in stark contrast to what the posted here by people who appear to be religious.

    • AJ says:

      08:29am | 24/11/09

      Thank you for making this case. This is the same case I made when putting forth my submission on marriage equality earlier this year. The fact is that many priests want to bless same-sex couples and many same-sex attracted people are religious. Religious freedom should allow that different interpretation of scripture to be carried out, given that it hurts noone at all. The way I see it, two men or two women marrying each other hurts nobody else, but brings joy to many.

    • Another dissapointed Christian says:

      12:35pm | 24/11/09

      Just make things clear, at no stage do I expect anyone non christian to agreee with me on my view on gay marriages. In fact I would suggest that it would probably revolt you to think that I think the gay marriage is biblically wrong. Let me make this perfectly clear, the government isnt christian whislt it may have christians in it. It does not represent the Christian church. My point is have gay unions, have gay joinings but not gay marriage and not in a church.

      The church has set the rule of marriage as per the biblical instruction.  Other wise if the gay community want to call it marriage im happy to call my marriage soem thing else that would mean the a man and a women getting married. I object that homosexuals high jack the church or the word marriage. I want to have a clear and defined line to differ between a gay and straight union.  Nathans opinion is not right and has no right to declare him self a evangelical or a christian pastor. 

      Finally I dont not hate homosexuals in fact in the bible im told to love everybody , I do hate thier sin and so does God. But I would welcome and homosexual into God church to listen to his word.

      Nathan you article is really disappointing and I hope you got the reaction you were after. My parent when moved to melbourne went to South Yarra Baptist was like the first church I went to as a child in 1977.

    • Crash says:

      01:35pm | 24/11/09

      Maybe some of the posters here should go back and have a look at the various parts of the bible we’ve let slide over the years.  Particularly at Leviticus, which is the most often quoted against homosexual marriage (18:22).  Especially the parts about animal sacrifice (7:14, 14:25 and many more) not eating bacon (11:7) shaving (19:27) dealing with your parents (20:9) the disabled (21:17 to 21:21).  There’s plenty more great material there,  it’s laugh-a-minute that Old Testament.  I hope those of you on here preaching that homosexuality is a sin adhere to all of these instructions as well, otherwise your sins are as great as those of any other.  Tell you what, I’ll keep your secret if you’ll show some of the tolerance and understanding that’s supposed to be the core of your religion?

    • Another dissapointed Christian says:

      02:00pm | 24/11/09

      Crash,

      have a look at the New Testament.

      You know the bit after the Old Testament.  After Chirst there is a new covernant, the OT was for the Jews, post Jesus old law not longer required because of christ is the forfilment of the law.

      But i will let you into a secret,

      Bible says ’ for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God’

      we are all sinners and require God grace and forgiveness.

      doesnt matter what you do.

      but i tell you what just ignore the stuff you dont like in the bible and take it out of context ( you can get the bible to say what you like then), then requote it in a blog and peddle it as the truth.
      too easy. smile

      But Im not asking saying anyone should obey the bible just simply ignore it,  if you dont want to be a christian. I will say that you are a sinner just like you say the bible is’ laugh-a-minute’ .
      We can both ignore each other

    • James says:

      02:17pm | 24/11/09

      How is the bible relevant to anything outside of a church anyway?  What do I care if some nutter 3000 years ago heard a voice telling him to offer up his virgin daughters (thats right - he offered them up to be raped by a mob, what a lovely fellow lets follow his teachings) instead of some nice looking blokes he had at his house?  Why should legislation and laws be affected by this type of thing?  And the argument that gay marriage leads to bestiality and suchlike, lets just consider it shall we?  Are you arguing that, if men can marry other men, or women other women, you would give up on heterosexuality, divorce your wife, and marry a donkey?  If so, you don’t need to look at the gay community and what they are doing, you need to take a good hard look at yourself.  My opinion is that anyone who spouts the “gays are undermining my marriage” rubbish is just a closet homosexual.  Things have changed people, it is okay to come out these days you know…

    • Crash says:

      02:21pm | 24/11/09

      ‘but i tell you what just ignore the stuff you dont like in the bible and take it out of context ( you can get the bible to say what you like then), then requote it in a blog and peddle it as the truth.
      too easy. ‘

      My point exactly.  The quotes about homosexuailty have been cherry picked out of long passages filled with violent and brutal rules that no thinkng modern person could dream of adhering to - except with regards to gay people.
      The New Testament is suspiciously quiet on the subject of homosexuality, barring some slightly dubious translations of a few passages here and there, the most popular of which seems to be 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

      The point is merely that we do have the freedom to choose to ignore each other’s views, but the homosexual contingent of the country has no such choice.  They are taught from childhood that the right thing to do with a person you love and want to dedicate your life to is to marry them, but when they get to adulthood and realize their same sex attraction they are told that this doesn’t apply to them.  I’d be happy to let everyone ignore everyone else as long as your ignorance doesn’t interfere with someone else’s happiness

    • T says:

      03:14pm | 24/11/09

      As a gay man on a promise to marry when the law allows with two beautiful children and a third on the way I that commend the writer for having the courage to question core beliefs and to come out a more enlightened person.
      I know we will win the right to marry and it just needs the magic ingredient of time. We know over 60% of Australians are for marriage between same sex couples and this number is higher in the younger generation. The glass is half full because when my beautiful man and I have the blessing of the state to marry it will have the added joy of our children in attendance as young adults. They will grow up living the lesson that when one person’s rights are compromised all our rights are.
      I heard a great quote from a Muslim legislator in Maryland who is upsetting conservative Muslims by saying “Gay rights are the civil rights of our generation”  and he is correct. Stop using the bible as a hate document because of your own prejudiced. I was brought up in a Christian environment but am agnostic -  your rhetoric is outside my belief system and this is why we have separation of church and state …though you would not believe that with KRudds double standards taking our tax’s in one hand and not allowing our unions at the other end. A union which would give protection to my family …hence I will continue to fight.

    • Trevor says:

      03:22pm | 24/11/09

      As a gay man on a promise to marry when the law allows with two beautiful children and a third on the way I commend the writer for having the courage to question core beliefs and to come out a more enlightened person.
      I know we will win the right to marry and it just needs the magic ingredient of time. We know over 60% of Australians are for marriage between same sex couples and this number is higher in the younger generation. The glass is half full because when my beautiful man and I have the blessing of the state to marry it will have the added joy of our children in attendance as young adults. They will grow up living the lesson that when one person’s rights are compromised all our rights are.
      I heard a great quote from a Muslim legislator in Maryland who is upsetting conservative Muslims by saying “Gay rights are the civil rights of our generation”  and he is correct. Stop using the bible as a hate document because of your own prejudiced. I was brought up in a Christian environment but am agnostic -  your rhetoric is outside my belief system and this is why we have separation of church and state …though you would not believe that with KRudds double standards taking our tax’s in one hand and not allowing our unions at the other end. A union which would give protection to my family …hence I will continue to fight till love prevails..

    • Peter Stokes says:

      03:44pm | 24/11/09

      Nathan may call himself an “evangelical Christian pastor and theologian” but substantiating that is far from easy for someone who shows such little real understanding of Scripture in its historical and literary context. As
      Robert A. J. Gagnon, Ph.D states, ‘we disagree so strongly in the church about this issue because the two opposing sides operate with diametrically opposed “hermeneutical scales”: one side continues with the historic priority of Scripture, followed by philosophical reason, scientific reason, and experience; the other has experience at the top and Scripture last.’
      I would add to the latter, with not much in-between.
      Nathan has supported the normalisation of homosexual for many years because I spent time with him at least ten years ago trying to understand his support for homosexual ordination. Back then there was little but personal experience and certainly no true understanding of the homosexual condition. Nothing has changed.
      Homosexuals may not chose to be homosexual but they certainly can chose to act out or not act out their unnatural feelings and they can certainly chose to change their sexual orientation. There is still not evidence anyone is ‘born gay’ but there is plenty of evidence that people can leave the lifestyle and the lust behind if they seriously set their mind and heart on doing so. No, it is not easy for many but it is certainly possible as many people have shown.
      God did not normalise Adultery Nathan or divorce he spoke strongly against it despite allowing you the freedom to marry again. Normalising unnatural sexual activity of any sort is not your prerogative Nathan and it is not something God is about to do. I suggest you read the whole of Matthew 5/6 and see the danger for those who lead others astray with false teaching.

    • Nathan Nettleton says:

      07:28pm | 24/11/09

      It has understandably seemed odd to many readers that I would identify myself as an evangelical pastor and yet not argue my case from the Bible. There was a reason. Although it wasn’t stated, the article is simply a reproduction of the text of a presentation I made to a hearing of the Senate Inquiry into the Marriage Equality Amendment Act 2009. In that context, it was not relevant to detail the biblical basis of my views. However, one of the Senators, an active Christian from my own faith tradition, requested a supplementary written submission detailing the biblical case. For those wishing to explore the biblical arguments, that submission can now be found at
      http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/legcon_ctte/marriage_equality/submissions/sublist3/for/Sub_ef44a.pdf

    • Peter Stokes says:

      02:56pm | 25/11/09

      I can’t believe you could get it so wrong, Nathan, and right at the beginning of your so called “Biblical” reasoning.
      You state “The accusation that he disobeyed Biblical laws was central to many of Jesus’ conflicts with the Pharisees” - WRONG
      The disputes with the Pharisees were never on written Biblical law UNLESS He was telling them they missed the point and had devalued it.
      The argument Jesus had was about what the Pharisees SAID – the rules they made up - The Talmud was not written down until about 400AD
      Never once did Jesus change anything that was WRITTEN in the law or the Prophets. In fact I again suggest you read Matthew 5 and read what he says about false teachers changing one dot or tittle. 
      You are changing what is written and at the same time suggesting that you know better than Paul and the other NT writers who upheld the immorality of homosexuality and lesbianism throughout the NT
      You also completely ignore the fact that many ‘laws’ in the OT are only mentioned once – usually relating to the Journey through the desert when they were encountering many people we would today call ‘pagan’, with not only bad beliefs but rituals of dress and practice. Good health was often a concern with certain food and behaviour, yet good health was vital to the survival of the Jews in such circumstances. That health concern had to include sexual immorality, which, as we see even today, spreads disease very rapidly.
      A proper understanding of Scripture shows that ALL the sexual moral laws are consistent from the example of God’s created design of man and woman leaving their mother and father to become one flesh (literally actually), right through to the Book of Revelation. They show us what is natural and what is a clear perversion – especially the unintended use for parts of our bodies for sex. HIV/AIDS and its association with homosexual sex is NOT a coincidence. It is therefore sad that someone such as yourself would endorse such behaviour.

    • 6c legs says:

      05:45pm | 25/11/09

      Maybe if some people spent more time getting to know ‘their fellow man” instead banging on and on about a collection of fables they might find that Gays are **gasp** just like themselves.  You know, people with the same foibles we ALL have.

      Why should we Hetro’s be the only ones that suffer?

      I’m sure Gay’s spell Equal Rights the same way Hetro’s do.

    • Nathan Nettleton says:

      06:34pm | 25/11/09

      Peter Stokes, lovely to hear from you again. The level of grace, humility and warmth with which you express your arguments is alway such a significant contribution to our cause. I count you as a true ally and thank you once again for your considerable help. I wish you every blessing.

    • cats says:

      10:11pm | 25/11/09

      Oh wow, i’m suprised the Dinosaurs even know how to use a computer to comment here! You Religious nuts who think you are better than everyone else are completely free to practice your own religion. What if another religion (such as Anton Lavey’s Satanism) allows the marriage of homosexuals? Do not think you are the only religion in the world. Telling gay people they cannot marry is like telling atheists that they cannot marry. Homosexuals are not looking for your approval FFS! They don’t care what YOU think, they want the same rights as everyone else.

    • Tim says:

      09:18am | 26/11/09

      bit late, but @Susan:

      In the passage where Jesus says “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her…” he goes on to say:

      “Woman, where are they? did no man condemn thee?” And she said, “No man, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn thee: go thy way; from henceforth sin no more.”

      Sin no more.

      Hmmm. He didn’t say “don’t stress - you’ve done nothing wrong.”

      Point is, while you are right to say Christians have no right to condemn gay men and women (or to judge their consciences), Christians still have a responsibility to imitate Christ in condemning and discouraging the sin itself.

      Gay marriage doesn’t condemn the sin, it glorifies it.

      For the non-Christians, this is a moot point. But for Christians (like Nathan Nettleton), it’s difficult to see how a pro-same-sex-marriage stance can be reconciled Christ’s example of condemning the sin but not the sinner.

    • Mark says:

      09:58am | 26/11/09

      How many of you have actually met Jesus/God, spoken to him and directly asked him about his views? Everyone knows that the bible is made up of stories the early church put together to justify their own bigatory (have you noticed a lot of the Jesus stories have a ‘lessen’ - convenient), and none of the Gospels were written in real time - they weren’t even written by people that were there. Don’t get me wrong, there is evidence that a man named Jesus did in fact exist and was effectively a pain in the ar*e to the established belief system he was killed according to the custom of the time and became a martyr, but without first hand evidence how is any of us to quote - with complete accuracy - having been there, anything that this Jesus said or did.

    • John of Perth says:

      02:12pm | 26/11/09

      Sorry to disappoint all of you, but God has not said anything that is in the Bible or any other writhing.

      All this in the Bible is imagination of a man,not God.

      If God wanted to write or do anything He would do it by Himself.
      As He didn’t need stupid man to help Him in Creation.

      All this is made by man, as at the beginning there was no Constitution or solid guide lines so people created Bible and other writings to control people and put laws as they saw it needed for the times they were living.
      So sad that now people can take this writing as some words of God.
      If God wants something He dose it Himself.
      Stop using His Name to push your own thoughts or wants.

    • Steven says:

      04:01pm | 26/11/09

      I respect and belive in the seperation of Church and State.  The only arguments against this are religious, so their values or arguments should have no baring!  Legalise Same Sex Marriage, Stem Cell experiments, Surragoccy, etc…  A religion should not dictate laws to anyone in this modern world.  Not everyone is a christan, so why should all the non-christans put up with a state that only listen to 1 type of church, even though this is meant to be a democrocy with people of many faiths.

      Keep church and state seperate!  Simple as that!

    • Ian says:

      09:26am | 27/11/09

      Nathan,
      I have only just caught up with your wonderful, sensitve and caring blog and congratulate you on the sentiments expressed. I am an atheist so care not a fig for Biblical injunctions of any sort but do recognise the New Testament as as work of strong moral principle (with a few ‘problem’ areas in Pauline teaching etc). I have been living with my male partner for 38 years and in 2006 (as he is a Brit) we had a civil union ceremony at the British Consulate in Sydney conducted under UK law.  It was one of the happiest days of our (and our families’) lives and we wear our gold bands with pride. 
      As far as we know the world has not moved on its axis since civil unions were introduced in many countries and the general institution of marriage seems to us as strong as ever.  It is not a ‘zero sum game’ all you carpers and dissenters - be very wary about relying on Biblical prohibitions or I’ll quote Leviticus (with all its 21st century absurdities) back at you, but ‘crash’ has already done that!  If a country as socially backward as Britain can introduce civil unions without apparent calamity it puzzles us that the ALP & the Libs can’t see that an equivalent law here would give much joy to many people and would have NO effect on the institution of marriage - it may even make it stronger!

    • Andrew Goff says:

      11:28am | 28/11/09

      @ Paul Horn

      “Can someone play God and explain to me why homosexuality seems to the moral equivalent to heterosexuality standing above all other forms of relationships? “

      Sure, that’s easy. A relationship between two men or two women is consensual… I’m not sure how a dead person or an animal says “I do”.

      As for the Polygamy aspect, the bible is pretty laid back on that. In fact, it expressly condones it more than a dozen times. So is the bible wrong?

    • Steve Robinson says:

      04:36pm | 28/11/09

      Nathan: thankyou!

    • tim says:

      11:04pm | 07/08/10

      Nathan - just wanted to post my words of thanks. A very well written and thoughtful piece full of wisdom, and without hate or judgement.
      To all the same sex attracted people out there - stand up and demand equality (even if you don’t want to get married - it’s about equality!!!!!)
      Church and state should be separate at all times.

    • waynevan says:

      06:17am | 27/03/12

      Nathan, Thanks for a well written, thought provoking piece. Perhaps support for your view can be found in 1 Cor 5:12 “Who am I to judge those outside the church?” Would it be right then to ask why should us Christians be concerned if same sex marriage is allowed on a purely social and legal level?
      Would it be a logical extension for Christians (and perhaps other faiths) to create their own status of marriage separate from what the state decrees for those who wish to take part in it?

    • Bob says:

      06:27am | 01/04/12

      The word “gay” used to mean happy and carefree. Not any more - quite the opposite.
      Now the “movement” wants to hijack Marriage.
      Nathan, your sentiments are understandable but of all people you should understand the sacrament of Marriage.
      The union of two “gay” people can never be the same thing as a Marriage between a man and a woman.
      So formally recognise such unions if you must, but please do not call them “Marriage”.

    • Gerry W says:

      03:44pm | 01/04/12

      Religion has nothing to do with same sex marriages one iota they should stay the hell away from telling people what to do.
      The government should not control normal people not tell them what to do, maybe in China in Iraq but we are much more humane than those backward countries that recently killed a 13 and 15 year old for loving each other with acid.
      The world is not becoming a better place too many useless people sticking their noses into our private lives.

    • Dene says:

      12:37pm | 02/04/12

      “too many useless people sticking their noses into our private lives. ” - this is exactly how I feel.. I do not understand all this arguing about the Bible.. Who cares?? I swear it is getting beyond a joke how often the Bible is getting quoted these days.. next thing we will do is stone adulterers or never cut our hair??Oh and forget shellfish and that poly/cotton business shirt.. seriously!! That’s what the bible says! Butt out of my life.. I never got a say in your marriage.. Why you all think you have a say in mine is beyond arrogance!

    • Mark says:

      01:16pm | 05/04/12

      Hi Nathan, thanks for your post, I deeply appreciate the tone and intelligence with which you write.  I would be interested in reading the submission to the Senate enquiry that you linked to at the conclusion of your post, however the link is no longer active as it was a few years back.  Are you able to send me or somehow repost this?

    • David Ayliffe says:

      04:21pm | 27/04/12

      Well done Nathan.  I’ve only just read this article today.  You’ve copped some flack and probably a lot more than what is here for your comments.  It is so sad that some Christians get so narky about things as if poor little God can’t possibly cope without our defending what we see as “His” views on human life when many times they are man made views anyway.  I’m convinced that as followers of Christ we always do best when we serve the poor, minister justice for the afflicted and care for the downtrodden.  I think God must shade his eyes when He sees us high and mighty and doing otherwise.  On same sex marriage or homosexual practice it’s time Christians and the Church stopped acting like an old fish wife and get out of other people’s bedrooms.  Where injustice occurs - rape, abuse of adults and children then a voice should be raised, but let’s stop telling other people how they should their lives when often times those with the loudest voices carry quiet shame.
      I reposted your article on my facebook page

    • Danny Lewis says:

      07:21pm | 27/04/12

      Nathan: It’s not often you find a religious person who is prepared to think outside the square, but you have, and in a way that, despite what the bigots say, will benefit humankind in the long run.

      I’m not a Christian, but I believe in basic Christian values; the greatest of which is to love your fellow human beings and to treat them respectfully and as equals, regardless of gender, race, creed, colour, belief system or sexuality.

      Thank you.

    • Nyani says:

      09:51am | 29/04/12

      First up I am not religious. Secondly I am not phobic. So my aversion to the idea of penetrating an excreta voiding aperture with my reproductive organ remains disgust, not fear, so acceptance of this practice of sodomy to me is just that ‘an aberration’.
      The purpose of marriage under these circumstances escapes me entirely, most people today live in defacto relationships so the little piece of paper legalising a marriage is surely a very minor problem, if defacto relations are recognised!
      The worrying part of this is the agenda of these practitioners, in the desire for children produced under these unnatural circumstances, what deviance hides here ?
      The brain washing of these minors bringing them up in circumstances that would be accepted by the child as natural but in fact is being coached for purposes of paedophilia!
      If not then why the strange choice of sexual preference that is wholly sexual & nothing to do with procreation???

 

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