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Why do people get so worked up over ID numbers?

Tory Maguire

by Tory Maguire

24 Feb 01:25pm

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Filed under: Julia Gillard, Myschool, Politics, Privacy, Student Id

48 comments

I used to work in this pub in Wollongong where come Census time some of the regulars would scarper for the hills. I also remember a bus stop near where I grew up bearing the graffiti: “NO AUSTRALIA CARD” for most of the mid 80s, so I get there are people who are a little skeptical (read paranoid) about the Government knowing their business.

1984 called, and it wants its outrage back

But I just heard the Punch’s Mark Kenny at the Press Club ask Julia Gillard about the “Orwellian” nature of the proposed new ID number for Australian school students Phil Coorey flagged in the Herald this morning.

The Opposition quickly jumped on the plan, with Tony Abbott today saying: I think that people have names and I think that it ought to be possible to identify people’s performance based on their names, based on who they are.”

Off the top of my head this is a list of the numbers I’ve had during my life: HSC exam number, Tax File Number, university student number, driver license number, Medicare number, Private Health Insurance number, various patient numbers during treatment, many employee numbers, bank account numbers, booking numbers, frequent flyer numbers, car registration numbers, account numbers for facilities… oh I’m tired now.

None of these numbers have made me feel less than a person, under Tony Abbott’s definition. Nor have they made me feel like I was living in a nightmare out of the pages of a George Orwell novel.

Gillard says the numbers will be used to track progress of students to provide better data for the funding of schools. According to Phil Coorey: “A senior source said strict privacy provisions would restrict its use to those who needed the information, such as parents. Protections would be built in to stop third parties being able to identify students.”

With the current generation of school students giving their privacy away for free on Facebook, a unique student number would be the least of a parent’s worries I would have thought.

Maybe I’m not paranoid enough.

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48 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Sarah says:

      01:39pm | 24/02/10

      It will make it harder for those schools getting extra funding to invent additional students..

      Reply

    • luke09 says:

      01:41pm | 24/02/10

      The id card will be on a computer database for future references and is unneccessary. The government can use it to track your entire life. No doubt they will want to include dna and fingerprints, with a further option to microchip for realtime data. Welcome to the new world order of PM Rudd’s Idealology, comrades.

      Reply

    • Anjuli says:

      01:51pm | 24/02/10

      Your comment:  I can still remember the number of my ID card which all Brits had during world war 2 ,as a school girl, it was no big deal, so I personally can’t see what all the fuss is about.
      All the information is still out there if you have applied for a passport driving, licence, or bank account.Even as an immigrant so who cares.

      Reply

    • Greg says:

      01:54pm | 24/02/10

      Absolutely spot on. I can still remember my Uni ID# from 20 years ago.

      Reply

    • formersnag says:

      02:00pm | 24/02/10

      NO Tory, you are not. Reread “1984”, watch one of the movie versions, (lead role by John Hurt, from memory, was a good one), then read it again, watch another movie version, see it at the live theatre, there is a play version out there as well i think.

      A wise man once said that just because, you are paranoid, it does not automatically mean that, they are not, out to get you.

      The ten scariest words in the English language, “We are from the government, we are here to help”.

      Reply

    • James says:

      02:16pm | 24/02/10

      That’s why I always wear my tin foil cap.  Because the guvmint is out to get me.

    • formersnag says:

      02:43pm | 24/02/10

      Did corrupt DOCS workers deliberately hand your children over to a known paedophile? Then cover it up? Thats what happened to my children.

    • James says:

      02:59pm | 24/02/10

      Ouch.  Sorry formersnag.  That’s rough.

    • H of SA says:

      03:50pm | 24/02/10

      Sounds like a pretty devestating experience formersnag.

      Without knowing the ins and outs of the case, Must be hard living with that kind of loss.

    • Darryl Price says:

      07:20pm | 24/02/10

      James@2:16
      My sons school uniform won’t allow him to wear his tinfoil cap, yet his armadillo helmet is okay. Not sure of the efficacy of it, but it’s better than nothing.

    • nic says:

      02:00pm | 24/02/10

      In HK you can’t open a bank account or do anything without your ID card number. It’s no big deal. Such cards can actually create positive changes to people’s lives, go through customs in HK with an ID card and see what I mean.

      Reply

    • Sunny Ho says:

      06:55pm | 24/02/10

      An ID card is just a part of life in HK. It makes immigration a much faster process. And saves you from having to provide a mish mash of telephone invoices and state driver’s licences to fulfil 100 point identity checks. Just because you have an ID does not make you any less of a human being.

    • Jim says:

      01:30am | 25/02/10

      Totally agree. Being a HK duel Australian Citizen, I went back and was told by the officer the great benefits of the ID card.

      Last time I travelled to HK, I swiped my ID whilst my newly wedded wife waited in the queue for 20 minutes.

    • Super D says:

      02:01pm | 24/02/10

      It’s a throwback to a pre digital era.  Anyone who has ever worked with a database knows that numbers sort faster than words, besides which even if people think the name is the identifier there will always be a unique key hidden somewhere.  If your name is unique it makes no difference, if your name isn’t unique then surely you would rather have your own number rather than get mixed up with someone else.  The people who will actually hate this are the teachers unions as teachers will likely get their own ID too.  Teachers wouldn’t want anyone to run a query and find out that half their 4th grade class ended up needing remedial english in year 7.

      Reply

    • Zeta says:

      02:06pm | 24/02/10

      Well, there was the small matter of a certain regime who shall remain nameless for fear of obeying Godwin’s Law too early in the piece, a regime which engaged in a highly efficent genocidal pogrom that involved the tattooing of identity numbers on people. There is that. So you can forgive people for being a little suspicious when Government starts dishing out identity numbers.

      Of course, we all have numbers now. But they’re a choice, and in almost all cases, a convenience and a requirement for living a modern lifestyle. But they are still just a choice. You can not have a drivers licence, a bank account, if you never apply for a job the ATO might never generate a TFN for you, you can never register with Centrelink. If you’re parents were so inclined, you can even escape Medicare numbers.

      You could then live in the wilderness. Like the Unabomber. I recomend Tasmania, where some 90 per cent of the forest remains unexplored. You can still make that choice, to disappear.

      But children don’t have a choice. Children are forced to attend school until Year 12 in most jurisdictions. To thurst upon them an identity number before they’re realy cogniscent of the privacy they’re giving up seems, to me at least, to be grossly unfair. Even worse is Abbott’s proposal, which would see their names used.

      Just because some young people are stupid enough to forgo privacy because the latest social networking fad tells them they have to does not mean the Government should exploit it. Government should do everything in their power to preserve the privacy of children until they’re old enough to understand the value of it.

      When you challenge this anti-privacy viewpoint that Governments now seem to have, you’re immediately told ‘if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear’. But preserving privacy isn’t about our own actions, but the Government’s.

      Things might seem rosy now. The worst your details can be used for is some advertising you don’t want, or a letter from Centrelink chasing you for that bill from a sharehouse you squatted in while claiming youth allowance 10 years ago.

      But imagine if our Government wasn’t the benevolent centrist democracy we have now and have had for a hundred years. It took only 13 years for the Social Democratic majority in the Weimar Republic to be replaced with National Socialism. It took only 4 years for Serbian Nationalism to take hold in Kosovo. Imagine if those regimes had have come to power and had, at their fingertips, a way of accessing the names, identities, social profiles, addresses, phone numbers, families… and Facebook profiles of their political enemies. They didn’t, and in Kosovo, Milosovich’s militias relied upon passports held by individuals and word of mouth to identify Kosovo Albanians from Serbs.

      But our Government would have it much easier. Should things go pear shaped in 13 years, or 4 years, or sooner, the framework for, efficent, systematic persecution is in place.

      And if this initiative goes ahead, they’ll know who your children are too.

      Reply

    • James says:

      02:18pm | 24/02/10

      Hopefully I will be able to hop on a leaky boat and find asylum somewhere else if that happens.

    • Zeta says:

      02:36pm | 24/02/10

      @ James - You won’t. ‘Border Security’ is a two way street.

    • BMJ says:

      04:03pm | 24/02/10

      So we should not get ID’s because, one day, we might become a nation of National Socialists and when we do they’ll be able to sift through the records and find their political opponents?

      Most of the world has ID’s of some sort. I agree that we should tread very carefully with stuff like this, but we aren’t 1920-1930 Germany with a devastated post war economy ready for the picking by a crazy man. Also we aren’t a country with the complicated history and ethnic tensions spanning hundreds of years that exploded as was the case in Kosovo.

    • xen says:

      04:32pm | 24/02/10

      Well spoken, Zeta. I truly enjoyed reading your comment.

      If you have not seen it yet, I think you would find the British TV documentary, Suspect Nation, very interesting.

    • Michael says:

      05:01pm | 24/02/10

      Paranoid Much?
      Apart from some books we don’t really have a reason as Australians to be paranoid about our privacy. That said the only concern would be when information is linked to paint a larger picture, in this case data joining should be optional.

      I would like to see a card introduced(purely optional) that you can link identifiable information to, for instance being able to link: License, Tax File Number, Birth Certificate, Bank Cards, UAI, Student Number, Mobile Number, Medicare Number, Prescriptions…  Then on top of that store identifiable information such as Photo ID, Iris Scan Data, Finger Print Data.
      Replace EFTPOS with an intelligent system were merchants based on business type are able to request different information and add to that information, for instance a doctor would be able to confirm your identity, your Medicare number as well as see your medical information, prescription history and any health care cards that may be applicable. Build into the system finger print verification and you will have a secure way for people to have an easy way to maintain details.

      This will not happen as long as people rely on fiction to make decisions.

    • SLF says:

      05:13pm | 24/02/10

      Err….They already know who my children are! I am the person who takes them to the doctors, enrolled thenm into school, is listed as their parent with Dept of Families etc…...If it comes as a surprise to any department I would be shocked. This is not an abdication of my desire for privacy it is the only way I can ensure my child has access to state services.

      What a bizarre paranoid rant. There is nothing to base this on and to use the examples from history is poitnless as Australia is not likely to come unfer the sway of fascism of begin a battle for independence.

      It would be less fanciful to say that it is a bad idea because if China invade during the coal wars of 2052 then they have acess to the personal data of the whole population.

      Are you against robotis because you have watched Terminator? Life in a modern democracy really isn not Logan’s Run or Gattaca.

    • Zeta says:

      06:04pm | 24/02/10

      @ Michael - Totalitarian regimes aren’t fictional. It’s only through effective legislative checks and balances that one hasn’t arisen in a Western democracy during the last eighty years, coupled with the fresh memories of regimes past that let us recognise one before it’s thrust upon us.

      If we forget those lessons, if we let convenience and efficency cloud our better judgement, we’re opening the door to it happening again.

      None of the ID measures you suggest make life easier for people, they only make it easier for Governments and Corporations to manage people, their money, and their interactions. So even if such a scheme were optional, all you’re doing is making life easier for the Government and bureaucracy.

      Why should we make life easier for the Government? Why should we help them make their unneccesary intrusions into our private lives more efficent?

      What, if anything, do we owe them that we would help them collate data? Do they pay you? Oh, no that’s right, they tax you instead.

    • Nick (W) says:

      02:15pm | 24/02/10

      Tory, I think the issue isn’t in these numbers themselves, but in the seemingly imminent future conglomeration of numbers and information.

      Melbourne’s Myki is a good example of a unique indentifier with high potential for abuse.
      Under the current government and legislation, each customer’s privacy is respected and kept private, but surely you can easily imagine a situation, a change of cirumstances where a government decides they want to draw on this information, whether for some supposed security reason, whether for a commercial reason etc.

      Any large database of people’s personal information always has a potential for abuse, whether or not that is possible right away.  Legislation and governments change.

      It’s a matter of efficient society vs. human greed nature and power nature.

      With Facebook, people are choosing to put things in the internet, however naively, while a government mandated identifier is compulsory.

      Reply

    • DG says:

      02:21pm | 24/02/10

      Part of the advantage of using a number for students is that it creates a double blind situation when it comes to marking. the marker is only referred to by a number as are the students accordingly the person assigning the papers does not know who’s paper is being assigned to which marker (aside from their respective numbers). This is essential when it comes to things like the HSC.

      I still recall the student number that I had as a high school student in NSW some years ago.

      Reply

    • SLF says:

      03:01pm | 24/02/10

      What is the fuss?

      We are all known as a number by every institution we deal with. We all have Tax File Numbers, Driving licenses which containe URNs. When we phone up about an account or booking, people want the reference numbers not your name. At uni i had a student number enabling me to access resouces, borrow books etc etc and I never felt like I was robbed of a choice not to have a number.

      As for kids not being able to choose, that is the role of parents.
      As for people fearing a super database that will control every decision based on a mass aggregation of data…have you ewver applied for a mortgage…. guess what happens?

      Really folks, I would be happy for my kids to have an ID number they carry throughout their lives and I am anatural cynic, but I guess I stopped watching the xfiles and seeing conspiracies everywhere when I grew up. In fact if I couls scrap all my numbers and have a universal ID card that was for banking/benefits/travel/driving then I would, but I have nothing to hide or fear.

      Reply

    • Old Man says:

      03:26pm | 24/02/10

      The NSW Education system has (or had until recently) a student numbering system where a student on starting school was allocated a number which they kept until finishing with the Department.
      If this system is still in place, will Gillard’s proposed system dovetail with this or will the State Government be forced to scrap a system that works?
      I am now an Age Pensioner and when I think of the places and Governments that hold bits of information about me already, I can’t see the problem with a card that will pull all of this together.  Don’t forget people, if you have ever travelled that there are foreign Governments with snippets of detail about you.

      Reply

    • Jarrod says:

      03:54pm | 24/02/10

      This is really a non-story.  I worked in high school administration in Western Australia for 2 and a half years.  Every student has a Student Information Database (SID) identifier already, which consists fo their first name, last name and a number if there is a repeat of the first-name/last-name combination in the database.  I believe a similar system exists in other states.  As far as I understand this is about standardising this sort of system accross the country.

      Reply

    • Louis McLennan says:

      04:08pm | 24/02/10

      Whats wrong with the medicare number? Sounds like a big government idea to create some more “jobs” which workers will have to pay for?

      Reply

    • Davido says:

      04:17pm | 24/02/10

      Yes, ID numbers are instinctively repulsive to a lot of us in ways that are hard to verbalize. They are associated with totalitarian regimes for a good reason. They allow governments an extraordinary degree of (and in my opinion unnecessary) control over the people.

      There are practical problems as well. For instance if a bank takes 6 years to find your new address (as mine did) then it is very likely to make more mistakes when using just a number. Numbers are really really easy to get wrong. Of course we could all get a bar-code tattooed onto our skin. That would make life more convenient for the people in control.

      Further, I can also imagine the level of service from various government departments falling through the floor. You get treated as if you are dirt now, wait until you get treated like another number (as if your not anyway!).

      Finally, the real problem with ID systems is that they represent the pivot point where the government controls you rather than the people controlling the government.

      Reply

    • H of SA says:

      05:02pm | 24/02/10

      I agree with Davido whole heartedly,

      At best, *at best* an unnecessary and expensive waste of public resources

    • DG says:

      09:22am | 25/02/10

      “make more mistakes when using just a number” - Wouldn’t they make more mistakes based on “Mr John Smith” (or the 300 of them in NSW) and numbers 1-300?

      Firstly, a name is not a unique identifier. Databases need a unique identifier. Your address is not a unique identifier, and it can change, so an identifier based on your name and address is flawed.

      Secondly, you get treated by a number because you are just a number - you are not special. Your are use one of the 22,000,000 people in this country. You are not o.1%, or even 0.01% of the population. A single person is in the vicinity of 0.000005% of Australia’s population. That’s how important you are.

      It’s all well and good to think of yourself as special in the context of your workplace, sporting team or groups of friends, but on a national scale you are just a number.

      Personally, I prefer a system based on numbers where number V883724 (Mr Kevin Rudd) is treated the same as T994857 (DG) or U884723 (Davido) [note all numbers are made up.

      Person V98973 has satisfied criteria for X, Y and Z and hence is entitled to the following ______________.

      Person T994857 has accessed system A, B and C in accordance with existing policy such a person is not entitled to services D, E and F.

      If this was done on a numbers basis rather than people saying “I know I don’t meet the requirements but I am special because _______” the system would be more consistent and would ensure that no person got special treatment no matter how important they think they are.

      Finally - we are subject to government controls - they have an army, police, prisons and judges. You comply with the laws they make because you are subject to their control. Now in a democracy (which is a form of government, not the model of all government) we get to elect our representatives, but we are still under their control. They still make the laws that are binding on us as Australians.

    • Davido says:

      04:32pm | 26/02/10

      Wow DG never heard someone say they want to be treated like a number.

      Anyway….

      Your last paragraph hits the point exactly. We the people should be in control of the country through the instrument of Government.

      People who blindly trust the democratic process are I would say - naive. Zimbabwe is a democracy isnt it? Iran? Was not Hitler elected?

      Democracy relies on constant vigilance.

      There is one thing I can guarantee, your future self will regret any benign compliance with these tools of oppression.

    • Kim says:

      05:14pm | 24/02/10

      What’s all the fuss about?  Each student already has a PSN (Personal Student Number) that is unique to each school.

      When a student reaches year 11 they are also given a LUI (Learners unique identifier) so that is the student changes schools, even though their PSN may change, their LUI doesn’t.  The state government uses the LUI to ensure that the students Senior Certificate contains all the students learning and not jus the learning from the last school.

      This is already in place in QLD, so why are we talking about it now?  WTF?

      Reply

    • The Wathcer says:

      05:16pm | 24/02/10

      We are getting ready to give Marxism a big ol bear hug when we accept the neo communist policies of Julia Gillard. The media has brainwashed a huge amount of the public to think that Abbott cannot separate religion from politics. I wonder why the speaker prays before every question time? is it a different God from the one Abbott worships? Anyway, we are at a crossroads in history and i know who i’d rather hav in power. Communism will lead to erosion of the few rights left. Dont belive it, check internet censorship, ETS and now this.

      Reply

    • Shane says:

      01:30pm | 25/02/10

      Watch out, Elvis is behind you. He wants to talk with you and give you an update on how Harold Holt just died in a Chinese village. Just make sure you bury him near Roswall.
      People like The Wathcer should be worried - the “governments” are chasing him down. Most likely with a butterfly net and a straight jacket in their hands.

    • AJ says:

      05:26pm | 24/02/10

      OK, here’s the silly thing about a bunch of the above comments.  The Government ALREADY has access to the results of your particular child, ID number or not.  What the proposal seeks to do is make that information available to you, without making that information available to everyone else (if your kid is listed as student number 2986527, then only you know that he/she is a genius/complete failure when you look it up online).

      And to everyone who says ‘ID numbers will lead to (insert totalitarian ideology here)’, well, as pointed out, Tax File Numbers have been around for a while, and I haven’t gotten stomped on by jackboots.

      In any case, I’m far more worried about the information that, say, Telstra and Google have on me than the Federal Government.

      Reply

    • Boon says:

      08:34pm | 24/02/10

      Well the ID card seems like a nice idea but I’d rather have a better health system and insulation that won’t kill me. Nice distraction technique mr rudd but please stay focused on the real issues mr. channel 7.

      Reply

    • Bruce says:

      10:44pm | 24/02/10

      Dont have a problem with the ID system, most probably not a bad idea. However, I thought it was funny when Gillard said “you wont need your name, just a number”. mmmmm…..More big brother !!

      Reply

    • Davido says:

      02:32am | 25/02/10

      Some people are missing the point.

      It doesn’t matter that various ID systems already exist. Neither does it matter that the government and others already have a tremendous amount of information about you.

      What matters is that with the advances in technology and the decreasing cost of that technology, governments and others are able to exert an extraordinary degree of control over your life.

      If your OK with this then you have to be OK with the possible unintended consequences from the use of ID regimes:

      - incompetence. You would be hard pressed in Australia to find someone who has not been screwed over by a mistake or error by a government or tel-co body.

      - power. We all love our cuddly bland politicians we get served up election after election. Yet it is not hard to imagine extreme circumstances allowing extreme politicians to introduce extreme policies. It is the nature of politicians to seek and exert power. Given the chance to increase their control over your life they will.

      Reply

    • Alex says:

      10:05am | 25/02/10

      Davido, I think you missed the point of your own email… Everything that you fear is capable of being done right now…  As you said, that information is already collected in databases of different government departments, which in reality are already linked up, so if you gain access to one, you can follow the links to the others, may take you a little longer but you get all the information you need.

      Not to mention the ATO hold enough information about you to allow all the things you fear to occur.  Do you spend all day curled up in a ball fearing someone may hack into the ATO database and steal all your information?

      As for everyone fearing some massive political uprising and Australia being taken over be some crazed dictator or totalitarian leader and using the information to find people who support his enemy political party, have you ever thought about not supporting a political party and looking at each election subjectively and voting for the right person at the time, not Abbot because he is Liberal or Rudd because he is Labour, might avoid that issue…

      It is a number to identify you with, we have enough, the information is already there to be taken by someone with the means and the time to do so, it doesn’t change anything, it just streamlines it and makes it easier for us to use.

    • Davido says:

      12:15pm | 25/02/10

      Alex if you read all my posts you would see that I do indeed ‘swing’ when it comes to various issues.

      I will say it again, it is irrelevant that the information is already in existence. My existence should not be a matter of convenience for the government. Nor should I be subject to being a number because some IT company flogs a system to the government. And guess what? I bet any contracts go to government friendly companies.

      I currently live in India which is a democracy. Yet it is the most oppressive existence you could imagine. On valentines day, government thugs roamed the street beating up women who were not in the company of their husband. Last year the Bangalore police took 367 into ‘preventative custody’ in order to prevent public displays of affection (Bangalore Times 13/02/10).

      Do not imagine you are safe from an oppressive government because you live in Australia. The only thing stopping Australia becoming an India is the voice of the people. Democracy will only prevent oppressive governments if people speak up before it happens.

    • Adrienne says:

      09:50am | 25/02/10

      Add to that list of numbers a Centrelink Registration Number and a Jobseeker ID number - both of which are really useful for monitoring a persons sucess/movement through the social services system.
      These numbers allow access to lots of personal information, but are surrounded by strict privacy laws and are only used by those who need to help people looking for work.
      There is no way to improve the system if we can’t measure the sucesses and failures.  An ID number would make this a streamlined and efficent process.
      It is not more information than we all already have available to the public!

      Reply

    • jk says:

      10:35am | 25/02/10

      An ID card, or number, poses a risk to the individual as it cedes control of ones identity to the authority of the day. Sadly the checks and balances that would need to be in place to ensure this data is not abused are impossible to safeguard. If you are not concerned about the nature of id politics you really should read a bit more. There’s plenty of stuff out there that’s not of the tin-foil-hat variety. Ask someone who has lived under a totalitarian regime what they think of id cards and numbers.

      Reply

    • darkdirk says:

      11:19am | 25/02/10

      If you are worried about the government using an ID number to compile a whole dossier of information about you… you must be a much more significant person than I. I really can’t imagine they’d spare the time. For God’s sake, they don’t even spend the time on things that ARE important (like designing and insulation rebate scheme, or a public transport smartcard ticketing system, or…)

      Reply

    • Wolfie Rankin says:

      11:25am | 25/02/10

      When I turned eighteen, I didn’t go off to learn to drive. My Dad drove the car, it was his baby and I had no urges to get my own car. which left me in a very odd position. You see, whenever I needed to ID myself, even if it was just to rent a video, I had a bit of a problem. I’d have to show my old birth certificate and several other cards… no card gets as much respect as a drivers licence, and if you don’t have one, you’re stuffed. At the time the Australia card was being discussed, I was hoping they’d ok the idea and at last I could leave the other items at home where they belong and just use this single card. but oh no, they’re iffy and strange and dangerous… apparently… but look at all the other numbers we have, licences, credit card, phone, home address, dog registration, medicard…. why the fuss?

      Reply

    • George says:

      12:34pm | 25/02/10

      Zeta,
      Your concerns over governments being able to systematically destroy you are concerns that exist now. The ID number will make day to day living easier for the general population. Governments already know everything about you, and a dictatorship will be able to put their own peopple into beaurocracy and cross match everything to find what they are looking for. To think that stopping the use of ID numbers will prevent the holocast is slightly naive

      Reply

    • ID No# if fine by Angela Lloyd says:

      01:51pm | 25/02/10

      There is nothing wrong with the numbers ID.  Your child has an ID No#, and?  So what. 
      I say to those who are having a hissy, get over it.  If that is the only thing you can complain about pulling at straws or trying to justify your position/job, or your are totally bored. 
      Let’s face if that criminal activity will be active within our community.  Having your child with or without a school ID is not going to stop the crims at any rate.  Thank-you

      Reply

    • acker says:

      09:33pm | 25/02/10

      Student ID will help the education department macro manage and perhaps remove the lower performing teachers, which is why the teachers union is screaming like stuck pigs.

      Reply
 
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Malcolm Farr

farrm51 10 Feb 12 02:23PM

@FakePaulKeating yep. Can't see repeal of state aid, even by atheist PM. JG actually big fan of Catholic system.

Malcolm Farr

farrm51 10 Feb 12 02:20PM

RT @Prronto: @farrm51 if diesel rebates were cut from mines already operating at a profit what would the saving be? #auspol

Malcolm Farr

farrm51 10 Feb 12 02:17PM

RT @SimonBanksHB: .@farrm51 Remember the means testing of family payments @tonyabbottmhr opposed in his Budget Reply but didn't vote against. More Noalition.

Malcolm Farr

farrm51 10 Feb 12 02:17PM

Good question i can't give quick answer to.MT@GhostofSirJoh: @farrm51 If rebates were cut from Private Schools what would the savings be?

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