A few days ago, a group called the Friends of Science in Medicine wrote to the Vice Chancellors of Australian universities, speaking out against the teaching of complementary and alternative medicine in the curriculum. This group consists of more than 400 Australian professors, academics, researchers and scientists who work in biomedicine. I’m one of them – a very junior one.

Magic didn't save this dude, and neither did homeopathy

The strength of the reactions has been fascinating. In the last 48 hours alone, I’ve been a fascist, an elitist, arrogant, narrow-minded, a shill for sociopathic corporate interests, viciously protective of my orthodoxy and a generally morally reprehensible crusader for the intellectual interests of old, white men.

I wonder how I have the time, to be honest. However, in the middle of all the noise and mutual disdain between both sides of the alternative medicine divide, what I think is the central point is being lost. And that central point is this: Magic is an insufficient basis for university teaching.

Yes, magic. “Supernatural, mysterious or unknown forces or powers.” The very same.

It is a fact that some degree-granting institutions currently offer courses which teach therapies based, fully or partially, on magic.

It is not a fact that scientists are unreasonably wedded to their existing ideas, or closed-minded. Science, as anyone who works in it will tell you, is viciously self-critical. The self-critical process takes much longer than we’d like but eventually theories improve as they manage to explain more simply, comprehensively or elegantly the phenomena we see.

It is not the fact that we believe anything that is “natural” is inferior to something “artificial”. It has been more than a century since this distinction has even really existed. On the contrary, existing molecules in plants are a major focus of modern drug discovery.

The issue here is fundamental difference between the way evidence-based and alternative medicine understand the world.

Homeopathy is a good example. Homeopaths believe that water “remembers” an imprint of molecules that used to be in it if they are shaken together. These imprints grow over time, in such a way that the potency of the solution goes up as the amount of active ingredient goes down. These imprints are what make homeopathic solvents potent.

As far as we’re aware, this violates the accepted physical laws of the universe. Modern chemists and physicists agree that this theory badly jars with what they think it is possible for matter to do. All of the attempts to prove the existence of this process have turned out to be methodological errors or outright fraud.

The mechanism, therefore, is regarded as hugely implausible. To the best of our knowledge – and our knowledge in an area like this is very, very good – this is magic in the most literal sense.

Strangely enough, a lot of proponents of homeopathy consider this to be a minor point. They use homeopathic remedies and they observe changes in people, sometimes profound changes. They see homeopathic pracitioners comforting the afflicted. Therefore, they “know” it works. On this basis, the mechanism becomes irrelevant.

This is sufficient to prove your good intentions. It is also sufficient to stop the discipline from being regulated into illegality (as homeopathic solutions are made of nothing but water, it is very unlikely they can directly hurt anyone – unless they harm the sick by keeping them from accessing medical treatment).

The question is not whether people should be allowed to be interested in, study, purchase or advocate for these methods – we would all be in a enormous amount of trouble as a society if they weren’t.

The question is the individual components of that mechanism – the molecules, cells, nerves, processes and pathways – which are the engine room of what happens to bodies when we treat them. We think this mechanism is central. We want to help people too, but we don’t make any progress on how that should be done without mechanisms. And to make progress, we need testable predictions, formed from those mechanisms.

As a consequence, the statement “this experiment worked, therefore this therapy helps people” is not scientific.

If we investigate an alternative medicine and find that the results are increased “wellness”, or “comfort”, or “less distress”, that’s quite pleasant. The problem is where we conclude that as X has been demonstrated to “work”, the investigation of X was scientific. It isn’t.

The statement “this experiment worked, therefore this magic is the best explanation for it” actually IS scientific. It’s just unlikely in the same way that the existence of chocolate eggs on Easter morning is evidence for a magical rabbit. It is good evidence only for the existence of chocolate, not how it got there.

The last link in this chain, of course, is the link between the scientific method and universities. This is a fairly obvious connection. Universities were built and are still maintained to create knowledge by inference – asking questions from what we already think is true.  When a potential employer asks whether or not you’ve “got a degree”, this process of critical thinking is what they hope you’ve learned.

When we use inference to understand the physical universe, that’s science. And science is antithetical to magic. Science isn’t interested in outcomes divorced from what made them, because there’s nothing we can do with them. Science does not exist to provide what people want. Science offers us progressively clearer approximations of what is.

One of the worst arguments I’ve encountered so far is that university courses which encompass alternative medicine are “giving people what they want”, as if somehow market forces were more important than facts, and universities existed to tell people what they wanted to know.

Quite the contrary. We are in the business of unvarnished, difficult truths, irrespective of what people might hope is the case or want from us.

And the case so far is this: 100 per cent of all rabbits have been observed to be in magician’s sleeves. Not one, so far, has managed to apparate out of the hat.

299 comments

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    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      05:35am | 02/02/12

      Actually the first universities were all about magic. The main subject was Christian theology and the rest of the subjects- Latin, Greek and Roman Classics were adjunct to the core subject. Of course that was when the Church had a monopoly on all education…...

    • marley says:

      06:35am | 02/02/12

      Actually, the first university was about law. not theology, and was independent of the Church.  And while early universities certainly taught theology, they also taught logic and metaphysics, mathematics and medicine.

    • VVS says:

      07:06am | 02/02/12

      Q: What do you call alternative medicine that is scientifically proven to work?
      A: Medicine.

    • Tedd says:

      07:18am | 02/02/12

      Hardly any alternative medicine is scientifically proven to work.

      See the sub-heading “Scientific Evidence for Homeopathy” here -

      http://www.aima.net.au/docs/homeopathy_position_paper_2010_final.pdf

      “Whilst a number of meta-analyses and systematic reviews of the research on homeopathy have concluded that there is little evidence to support homeopathy as an effective treatment for a number of clinical conditions .. (.. a number of individual studies, including randomized placebo-controlled trials and laboratory studies that report *variable* positive effects of homeopathic remedies)”

    • Tim Minchin says:

      07:24am | 02/02/12

      VVS - another pillar of university academia is that you don’t plagiarise. Make sure you attribute your quotes so that people don’t think that they’re your original work!! wink

    • Tedd says:

      07:38am | 02/02/12

      There’s no scientific evidence that chiropractic works, either

    • acotrel says:

      08:30am | 02/02/12

      I like aromatherapy best !

    • Craig says:

      08:49am | 02/02/12

      Tedd,  I have an exercise physiologist degree and I have no issue attending a respectable and reputable chiro. Let me ask you, how do blind a treatment arm in a chiro study? You can’t, so we should invalidate qualitative results arising from the endpoints?

    • acotrel says:

      09:56am | 02/02/12

      Aromatherapy - have you ever dropped a quiet one in a crowded lift, and asked loudly ‘can you smell petrol’ ?

    • marley says:

      10:04am | 02/02/12

      @Craig -the thing is, you’re seeing chiropractic as a form of physio.  But it’s more than that - it has at its core the theory that organic disease can be caused by spinal misalignment.  And that’s poppycock.  If it restricted itself to manipulation of the joints and vertebrae, fine;  but when it extends into trying to treat diseases or conditions like tunnel vision through spinal manipulation, chiropractic damn well ought to be shown as the scientific nonsense it is.

    • Faz says:

      10:46am | 02/02/12

      Na, Heathers is right on the money. Time to scrap any university course that doesn’t have a strong ‘evidence base’. Imagine how much money we’d save getting rid of all those humanities faculties?

    • Tedd says:

      10:49am | 02/02/12

      Craig,
      It has been hard doing double-blind trials for hip replacements or open heart surgery too, but there is plenty of evidence they are efficacious, despite the complications.

      Most chiro spinal “treatments” are several visits or ongoing visits, for subjectively-outlined ill-defined problems, that do not seem to cure.

      As marley alluded, the non-spinal stuff is even more woo-ish.

    • T-rev says:

      11:16am | 02/02/12

      @ VVS

      Good one! So, so true…

    • Scientologist says:

      11:19am | 02/02/12

      Alternative medicines? I prefer to get all my medical advice from Xenu…

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      12:12pm | 02/02/12

      @marley-
      “Prior to the establishment of universities, European higher education took place for hundreds of years in Christian cathedral schools or monastic schools (Scholae monasticae), in which monks and nuns taught classes; evidence of these immediate forerunners of the later university at many places dates back to the 6th century AD. The earliest universities were developed under the aegis of the Latin Church, usually from cathedral schools or by papal bull as studia generalia (n.b. The development of cathedral schools into universities actually appears to be quite rare, with the University of Paris being an exception — see Leff, Paris and Oxford Universities), later they were also founded by Kings (University of Naples Federico II, Charles University in Prague, Jagiellonian University in Kraków) or municipal administrations (University of Cologne, University of Erfurt). In the early medieval period, most new universities were founded from pre-existing schools, usually when these schools were deemed to have become primarily sites of higher education. Many historians state that universities and cathedral schools were a continuation of the interest in learning promoted by monasteries.”

    • Mattb says:

      01:21pm | 02/02/12

      Tedd

      “There’s no scientific evidence that chiropractic works, either”

      It didn’t work for me, but Bowen therapy did. How do I know?. Because after three chiro sessions my back was still f$&ked;. I put up with the pain for another two months before someone suggested Bowen. After two sessions my back was 100% again.

      Bowen therapy works for me, might not work for others. I guess that’s the way I see it, if it works it must be right.

      Not a very scientific way of looking at it I know, but I bet their is science behind it.

      What works for everyone else?

    • craig says:

      02:39pm | 02/02/12

      Marley and Tedd,

      You imply that chiro is limited in it’s use i.e. musculoskeletal manipulation, and I agree there are benefits in this form of treatment. However,  there is a side of chiro that I find is dubious and is why I would not recommend one ie. diabetes. You do have to feel for this group because the chrio association did approach the uni’s and they asked what is it they want to fulfil the requirement of an accepted medical profession? Evidence based outcomes with a bach and a masters was the answer and the medical association is still complaining! Talk about cant win!

    • mike says:

      10:17am | 03/02/12

      I FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE ANY THING THAT CONTAINS THE WORD BOWEN IS EFFECTIVE AT ANYTHING

    • Super D says:

      05:36am | 02/02/12

      The same article will one day be written about climate “science”.

    • Nathan says:

      06:14am | 02/02/12

      @Super D
      yeah i can’t believe people think the world is round, stupid scientists they don’t know anything. Next thing they will tell us that the Earth’s orbit is the motion of the Earth around the Sun.

    • marley says:

      06:28am | 02/02/12

      @Super D - there’s a crucial difference between climate science and things like homeopathy. Whether you agree or not with AGW, the theory explaining it is based on real physics - the argument rests much more with whether the actual observations match the computer modelling of the theory, and to what extent.  With homeopathy, you have neither theory nor observation.

    • hendrikus says:

      06:28am | 02/02/12

      really, you have to do better than that.

    • Hoob says:

      06:50am | 02/02/12

      @Nathan

      If you are going to troll at least make it good.

    • Super D says:

      06:55am | 02/02/12

      Um Nathan we can demonstrate that the world is round, just as we can demonstrate that despite relentless increases in CO2 emissions ther has been no increase in temperatures for fifteen years. The fifteen will soon be 20, then 25, then 30. At what point will you accept the data over your belief?

      Note that it’s still ok not to like capitalism, western society and individual freedom. You just have to stop claiming that these things are destroying the planet via CO2 induced warming.

    • Lisa Meredith says:

      07:37am | 02/02/12

      Dear SuperD,

      You say: ” we can demonstrate that despite relentless increases in CO2 emissions ther has been no increase in temperatures for fifteen years”.

      Several points:

      1. Where in the theory of global warming, based on our studies of past climate change, does it state that a temperature response to ‘simple curve’ changes in CO2 should always take on the same ‘simple curve’ shape? My interpretation of this theory predicts both warming and cooling periods as global warming continues, due to the chaotic nature of climate and the observation that the universe reacts to linear changes in non-linear ways. Thus a cooling period does not disprove anthropogenic global warming for me.

      2. Where in the theory of the greenhouse effect does it say that we only need to rely on temperature of the atmosphere as the sole identifier of the warming signal? My reading of this theory suggests that all indicators of the rise of thermal kinetic energy in the atmosphere/ocean system must be taken into account. This includes all sorts of things such as atmospheric volume, ocean temps and volume, the water cycle and all other independent variables that help determine global climate, such as the solar cycle.

      3. Are you suggesting that the greenhouse effect theory is wrong? If you do believe this I am very curious to hear your answers to the following questions:

          a. If the greenhouse effect did not contribute to global climate regulation in the past, what replaced it to perform this particular function?

          b. How do microwave ovens heat food?

    • Space Ghost says:

      07:56am | 02/02/12

      Hmmm listen to an anonymous unsupported ranter on a blog or the consensus from peer reviewed climate change scientists.

      Jez it’s so hard to know which way to jump on this issue.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiYZxOlCN10

    • CBR says:

      08:15am | 02/02/12

      @SUper D

      Unfortunately the science disagrees with you as virulently as it disgarees with homeopathy.

    • acotrel says:

      08:28am | 02/02/12

      @Nathan
      Did you know that the scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project were worried that the A bomb might set fire to the atmosphere ?  It didn’t happen !  They don’t know everything !

    • Super D says:

      08:33am | 02/02/12

      @Lisa - The IPCC projections ie “The Science” have been proven wrong over the past 15 years.  Ask them why they didn’t forecast the lack of warming.  Askt them why their hypothesis have not been proved.

      Everyone knows that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, this is not contested and is an absolute strawman argument.  What is contested is the degree of second level forcings that the IPCC models suggest would cause runaway global warming - of which there hasn’t been any for 15 years.

      The whole point of the global warming scare is that the atmospheric temperature of the planet will rise 4-5 degrees and that this will be an absolute debacle.  Remember how we are supposed to come together to reduce CO2 emissions so that we could restrict the increase in temperature to “only” 2 degrees?  The point is we’ve not reduced emissions, temperatures haven’t risen and therefore there is no need to reduce them to avoid catastrophic climate change.

      This is not to say that catastrophic climate change may never occur - as you rightly point out this planet is a chaotic system - the obvious conclusion from this is to be humble in thinking we understand how any of it works though this never seems to occur to those who would change the world.

    • acotrel says:

      08:37am | 02/02/12

      @SuperD
      ‘Um Nathan we can demonstrate that the world is round’

      Did you know that simply by changing just one sign in a theory from a minus to a plus, it can be proved that we are living on the inside of a sphere with the universe inside it ? Just gimme the ‘FACTS’ man !

    • John L says:

      08:52am | 02/02/12

      @ Lisa 3b: vibration, I don’t see the significance.

      @Super D What part of this climate “science” are you referring to? Climatology, Oceanography, Marine Biology, Volcanology, Meteorology, Aeronomy, Chemistry, Physics…the list goes on. What I’m trying to say here is that there must be something to it if there is so much research going into it. Just because someone who sounds legit says there’s no reason to worry or that the subject is bunkum doesn’t mean that we should believe them.

    • ZSRenn says:

      09:07am | 02/02/12

      @ Lisa M I was going to reply to your post but decided I wouldn’t be so cruel.  I suggest you may have failed science at school though.

    • Geresn says:

      09:24am | 02/02/12

      After reading all the replies to SuperD (yay Lisa Meredith!), and then his responses, I realised what the “D” in SuperD stands for.

    • neo says:

      09:45am | 02/02/12

      Record low temperatures all over Europe, Australian summers have been getting colder and colder. Global warming indeed…

    • Lisa Meredith says:

      10:18am | 02/02/12

      Dear SuperD,

      Thankyou for pointing out that you accept the greenhouse effect.

      I accept that the cooling was not predicted per se: it was predicted only in the generic sense that the response will not be “linear” (for want of a better word).

      I totally believe that the feedbacks and forcings are fuzzy and very difficult to quantify, and no doubt will continue to be until after the fact. This is an area of genuine dissent in the world of climate science. It impacts on our predictions concerning the timespan required to realise the warming potential caused by the increase in CO2. Eg: will it be 100 years (catastrophic) or 500 years (milder)?

      However, I don’t see how either of these ideas disproves AGW.

    • acotrel says:

      10:23am | 02/02/12

      @marley
      ‘@Super D - there’s a crucial difference between climate science and things like homeopathy. ‘

      That’s the crux of the matter.  People cannot distinguish pseudo-science from the real thing.  And with AGW,  we have armchair experts getting believed,  who don’t even know the basics of thermodynamics.

    • Lisa Meredith says:

      10:30am | 02/02/12

      Dear John L,

      You say: ” @ Lisa 3b: vibration, I don’t see the significance.”

      If you understand and accept quantum physics in general and the greenhouse effect in particular, there is no significance.

      However, if someone believes that the greenhouse effect is wrong and/or disproved, the question becomes pertinent, as the vibration is predicted by the “greenhouse effect” rules of the quantum model, so to speak.

      The greenhouse effect theory concerns the radiative properties of all atoms, molecules and wavelengths of light, including the water and microwaves found in the kitchen nuker.

    • Lisa Meredith says:

      10:38am | 02/02/12

      Dear ZSRenn,

      I’m dying to know the science I have misrepresented!  Any clues?

    • acotrel says:

      11:37am | 02/02/12

      @Lisa Meredith
      Are you telling us that microwaves in our atmosphere cause global waming by exciting the dipole of the water molecule.  I always thought it might be mainly caused by the change in the wavelength of UV radiation to infrared as it passed through the clouds and the gases..

    • LostinPerth says:

      01:09pm | 02/02/12

      @Lisa “Where in the theory of global warming, based on our studies of past climate change, does it state that a temperature response to ‘simple curve’ changes in CO2 should always take on the same ‘simple curve’ shape? My interpretation of this theory predicts both warming and cooling periods as global warming continues, due to the chaotic nature of climate and the observation that the universe reacts to linear changes in non-linear ways. Thus a cooling period does not disprove anthropogenic global warming for me”

      The same argument could be used to disprove anthropogenic global warming. Given that we know the Earth goes through cold and warm cycles without any human interaction. and has been both warmer and cooler then it is now, how can you PROVE that the recent warming is not a small term variation as part of a non-linear naturally occuring cycle.

      Most graphs supporting global warming use a linear or basic curve to prove warming, often going off into catastrophic temperatures.

      The basis premise is Human activity causes increased CO2 = global warming. Yet if Human activity causing increased CO2 over the last 15 years has lead to no significant increase in temperature then surely the original premise is wrong. You can’t just ignore data you don’t like (which is what the “deniers” get accused of)

    • Wynston Cruso says:

      01:18pm | 02/02/12

      The whole ‘it’s cool in some parts of the world, so where is this global warming, derpa derp’ argument simply highlights skeptics inability to grasp even the simplest science.

    • Mattb says:

      01:57pm | 02/02/12

      Lisa m

      ” ZSRenn says: 10:07am | 02/02/12
      @ Lisa M I was going to reply to your post but decided I wouldn’t be so cruel.  I suggest you may have failed science at school though.”

      Lisa,

      Dont worry, this is just renny’s polite way of saying he hasn’t a fu$&ing; clue about anything your discussing here. But he’ll throw this out there to make it sound like he has got an idea, with heaps of evidence to back it up. You’ll just never see any of this evidence.

      Please don’t throw any maths sums at him either. Last year he was all over the place in trying to predict how much the carbon price mechanism was going to cost the average Aussie. $1400 one week, $800 the next, then up to $1700 the following. All based on counting up every household in Australia and somehow then dividing that by his predicted (unreleased by treasury at the time) amount of revenue the carbon price was going to earn the government.

      As for the rest of the conservative clowns on here denying climate change exists, well, the joke is on them. Even Australia’s major conservative party, the coalition, recognizes climate change exists, has a commitment to reduce GG emissions by 5% by 2020 and has a climate change policy.

      God only knows who they’ll vote for in the next election, and for most of em they probably wish they could vote for a god, after all, they beleive in the sky fairies too. Cardinal George pell is theirs and Tony’s foremost advisor on all things ‘climate change’ and god told him it doesn’t exist.

      Pesky scientists can’t help him prove his god exists so why should he help them spread the AGW message….

    • James In Footscray says:

      04:51pm | 02/02/12

      It’s funny how ideologues cherry pick science. A lot of left-wingers automatically defend ‘the Science’ of AGW, but believe in alternative medicine. A lot of right-wingers scoff at alternative medicine, but automatically attack AGW.

    • Lisa Meredith says:

      08:03am | 03/02/12

      Dear Acotrel and LostinPerth,

      The “greenhouse effect” that goes on in the microwave does not happen to any major degree in the atmosphere.

      This example was intended to show how science works. It is not enough to denounce a theory. The phenomena the theory intends to explain still needs to be explained. Any predictions generated by the theory that hold “true” (such as the microwave oven in this case) also need to be explained.

      LostinPerth says: “Given that we know the Earth goes through cold and warm cycles without any human interaction. and has been both warmer and cooler then it is now, how can you PROVE that the recent warming is not a small term variation as part of a non-linear naturally occurring cycle.”

      Answer: I don’t believe we can use this data to prove it one way or the other. Instead, we have to look at all the data, put it together in a big picture, and then identify the MOST LIKELY scenario, as there is no such thing as an absolute truth. For me, suggesting there has been no AGW to date does not imply there never will be. It also begs the question: what does this mean about the greenhouse effect and quantum model theories?

      Acotrel says: “I always thought it might be mainly caused by the change in the wavelength of UV radiation to infrared as it passed through the clouds and the gases.. “

      Answer: When the sun shines, the infrared component of the solar spectrum is nearly all short wave infrared, which cannot interact with CO2 as it is too energetic. Instead, this radiation is absorbed by any part of the earth’s surface which is ice-free; as ice reflects it all back into space.

      As the earth absorbs this short wave radiation it warms up, and in turn radiates heat commensurate with this temperature up into the atmosphere. This is the long wave infrared radiation which does interact with the CO2 molecule by being absorbed and subsequently emitted.

    • Craig says:

      05:55am | 02/02/12

      Universities are about knowledge, not science.

      Where do degrees on pseudo-sciences such as psychiatry, political science and economics fit in?

      How about vocational degrees such as accounting (business rules, not science), architecture, teaching, communication, journalism and law?

      Or broader degrees such as fine arts and comparative religions?

      All teach skills, frameworks and thinking. Few have hard science at their core.

      I can argue a case for homeopathy and other such practices to not be taught by the science department, however turfing them out of universities would only increase the chance for them to do harm.

      Universities should be centres of formal learning, greenhouses for brains.

      Better to hold these practices close, test and evaluate them under university conditions than to let them flourish in the wild.

      And btw I do think they are crocks, but if university science teams can’t disprove them completely, then maybe it is you,not they, who need to work harder.

    • marley says:

      06:23am | 02/02/12

      @craig - to my knowledge, homeopathy has been extensively tested and evaluated under scientific conditions and has in every case proved to be ineffective.  I don’t know what more science can do.

      And while I agree that all university education is not about science, it is generally about truth, or the search for truth - whether in science, mathematics, economics or fine art.  Homeopathy and its ilk are not truth.  Universities should not be giving respectability to what is essentially snake oil salesmanship.  Leave the governments to control the snake oil and the universities to continue the search for genuine knowledge.

    • Joan says:

      06:24am | 02/02/12

      It`s government neglect and lack of wisdom that now allows public to believe that homeopathy and similar are of equal status to other rigid university courses.  I`m surprised that the government hasn’t been sued for misleading re value of homeopathic in managemant of medical conditions - by allowing homeopathy in University it has given its seal of approval to a piece of nonsense. Why waste scarce education/medical funds on a piece of crock?. So much for Gillard education revolution - taking us all back to the cave,  witches brew, and snake oil. ,

    • Gabrielle says:

      06:32am | 02/02/12

      I agree. Well argued Craig.
      I work in the cancer arena, and nothing scares us more that seeing the circling of the alternates medicine providers, like sharks, on the outer of our practice. Scientists should work to prove them wrong and communicate that message more creatively so that the public get the message.
      This same crtique James then needs to be applied to private health fund schemes that reimburse alternative medicine costs!!! That is equally outrageous to course being offered at universities. That is why our premiums continue to rise. The health insurance companies offfer rebates because the punters want it!!! No evidence - only demand in the open market.
      When the royal family finally give up on homeopathy, then it might go away…

    • SimpleSimon says:

      08:06am | 02/02/12

      @Joan - I think that’s a bit of a stretch. You can’t really blame the Government for what Universities choose to offer as part of their curriculum.

      Or are you taking the piss?

    • Mack says:

      08:12am | 02/02/12

      I agree Gabrielle. Health funds offering rebates for alternative treatments is ridiculous and just gives these snake oil salespeople credibility when in reality they are offering placebos.  Reiki - now there is the biggest load of BS you will ever see and the same people who laugh at born again Christians raising their hands in the air and praying to god will happily lie on a table and let some reiki practitioner ‘channel energy’.  And it’s mostly women that believe this tripe. Pathetic that grown ups haven’t moved on from needing to believe in fairies and fairy so-called ‘healing’.

    • Mark G says:

      09:16am | 02/02/12

      It true to say that not all university degrees are about science but it is also not true to say that university degrees are just about knowledge. Degrees and higher academic qualifications should always involve some level of critical thinking. The level is determined by the level of critical thinking. This is why you cannot do a degree in type writing or driving a truck. Even fine arts degrees involve some form of critical thinking such as an analysis and interpretation of the masters and their work. In an accounting degree you dont just learn how to balance the books but rather you learn about how accounting systems function ie the processes and methodology behind them. A business degree is not about how to run a business but rather studies business processes and key strategies to business success. An academic qualification without a degree of critical thinking is a diploma or certificate I,II,III,IV.

      The unfortunate reality of modern universities is the loss of this firm grounding of high education and its not just alternative and complimentary medicine that is driving it. Universities are constantly selling out to market pressures when in come to maintaining the sanctity of the higher academic quals. Things that should be diplomas are becoming degrees because everyone wants to go to uni wether they are suitable or not. Now you have degrees link Bachelor of David Beckham studies (yes look in up. it is a degree in England). In the face of degrees like that suddenly complimentary medicine doesn’t seem so bad. By why is this drift a problem? Because we have now reached a stage that means a degree is no longer worth the paper its written on. You have to at least do a masters to get any respect. Eventually everyone will have a masters in stupid subjects and that qual will also loose its value.

    • Jim says:

      09:22am | 02/02/12

      @Craig

      You can argue the semantics about whether University is about science or knowledge, but the point the writer is making in this article is that having homeopathy in universities legitimises it and it should not be held in this regard.

    • neo says:

      09:53am | 02/02/12

      Well, homeopathy is so popular because, logically, it makes sense. And it probably works in some cases, the problem is people abandoning all other cures for this one.

      Take ritalin for example. It would make a normal person hypo, but we give it to hypo kids to calm them down. That’s pretty much homeopathy, used by the medical profession. Of course, ritalin is used in high doses, unlike homeopathy remedies.

    • marley says:

      10:09am | 02/02/12

      @neo - homeopathy makes sense?  It only makes sense if you believe that molecules have a memory.  Otherwise, it makes no sense at all.

      As for ritalin, yes, it’s a stimulant.  It works on ADHD kids by increasing “the activity of chemicals called dopamine and noradrenaline in areas of the brain that play a part in controlling attention and behaviour. These areas seem to be underactive in children with ADHD.”  Seems to make sense to me.  More than molecules with memories, anyway.

    • neo says:

      10:19am | 02/02/12

      I think you have a very narrow understanding of homeopathy tbh.

    • Kassandra says:

      11:12am | 02/02/12

      Science comes from the Latin scientia “knowledge” in turn from the verb “to know”. Originally it meant any substantive body of knowledge and only took on its modern meaning, of understanding the world through observation and experiment, during the 18th C Enlightenment. This is the crux of the issue - not just what we think we “know” but how do we know it. In the case of homeopathy and suchlike the “knowledge” amounts to little more than a belief unsupported by empirical observation and experiment. It is also a fundamental tenet of science that knowledge is not fixed, it is subject to further observation and experiment ie new knowledge. This is the problem with the climate controversy - the science is never “settled” and new knowledge is increasingly challenging the position of the doomsday theorists. I might also add it is increasingly challenging the benefits of stimulant treatment of children with ADHD, the latest report from the largest multicentre treatment trial on this finds that the benefits seen after 12 months of treatment have disappeared after 3 years (ie after 3 years there is no difference in outcome between children given stimulants vs those treated without them).

    • WarBaby says:

      04:23pm | 02/02/12

      @ mack and others, you do know that some of the most prominent quantum physicists in the world are also metaphysicians and validate vibrational therapies including Reiki, Seichim and others, don’t you?  Einstein was a metaphysician.  Some of the most powerful exponents of vibrational medicine are medical doctors and specialists.  I personally know a cardiologist who is proud to be a Reiki master. Russian scientists are very active in discovering the secrets of DNA, cellular memory and alternative medicine.  So are prestigious universities in Canada where quantum biophysics is widely accepted.  Eastern cultures have used metaphysical healing and the science of the mind for millenia when your ancestors were still swinging from trees.  But of course, it was that great charlatan, Freud, who ‘invented’ the science of the mind and look how much the gullible shell out to quack psychiatrists.  I have been to university four times and I can tell you that there is nothing so dodgy as what is taught as ‘proven fact’ in psychology (Piaget for a start) and some of the sciences and even medicine.  I am a health educator, but I keep an open and enquiring mind as I personally know people who have recovered from cancer when hours from death because ‘they willed it so’.  I also use, and give for free, a powerful Tibetan healing technique passed down through my ancestry for millenia.  ‘The Force’ is something tangible. and as tangible as Tesla’s ability to seemingly pull electricity out of thin air.  BTW, I am in daily contact with some world prominent scientists who use nanotechnology to create electricity from thin air.  To primitives that is ‘magic’, whereas I see it as just ‘magical’.  For those who believe no explanation is necessary, for those who do not believe no explanation is possible (Apollinaire, I believe).

    • WarBaby says:

      04:32pm | 02/02/12

      @ Mark G.  An academic qualification without a degree of critical thinking is a diploma or certificate I,II,III,IV - Now that is academic elitism, utter BS, and you should be ashamed of yourself.  I am an instructional designer in vocational education and I can assure you that critical thinking is necessary to develop employability, and my students are all well grounded in problem solving and critique. My Cert III, IV and Diploma unit students complain that I have more academic rigour and demand more work than they experienced in their post-grad studies.  This I can believe because I dropped out of a Masters course in disgust because it had less academic rigour than my Cert II programs.  Would you want a health worker who can’t apply common sense and judgement if a problem arises in your case and dismisses a serious condition with ‘take an aspirin and lie down’, as my former GP said to his son who had a broken leg?  I think not.

    • Andy says:

      04:44pm | 02/02/12

      @ Craig -“it is generally about truth, or the search for truth -”

      So political science or journalism should never ever be taught in Unis then?

    • TracyS says:

      03:01pm | 05/02/12

      @neo
      “homeopathy is so popular because, logically, it makes sense. And it probably works in some cases” - The concept of a substance working because it is diluted down infinitesimally doesn’t make much sense logically, and has been shown in multiple independent studies not to work.
      “Take ritalin for example… That’s pretty much homeopathy, used by the medical profession” - Ritalin, like other approved medications, was subject to clinical trials to show its effectiveness before it was allowed to be used on people.

    • Anthony says:

      06:02am | 02/02/12

      I agree completely and while we are at it all research that does not answer what it is supposed to should be pulled and all heads of departments should have a quota of papers to be published in Journals of a high impact factor.

    • Brian says:

      06:27am | 02/02/12

      Great article. Now here come the people who don’t understand it.

      The very reason that people practice homeopathy is the same reason they cannot be ‘persuaded’ out of it by ‘reason’.

      They have already abandoned reason.

      So arguing against them is futile.

      The best targets for this argument are universities, who have at least a lip-service to reason, or bodies who fund universities, who consider themselves rational.

      If we can embarrass them enough about the rubbish that they’re teaching/funding, hopefully there will be less of it.

    • Joan Bennett says:

      06:27am | 02/02/12

      Why don’t we simply use the same clinical trials for “alternative medicine” that pharmaceuticals have to undergo?  If trials are inconclusive, the product can’t be sold or make claims of any nature that haven’t been clinically proven.  Then by all means teach homeopathy at university.  Teach that a, b, c, d etc have no proven efficacy in treating various conditions.  Once the students of homeopathy learn that it doesn’t work, they may think twice about practicing it.  And even if they do want to practice it, they can’t use any of the watery substances…

    • Anthony says:

      09:38am | 02/02/12

      Agree completely and the irony is the only way this can be done is my embracing these “therapies?” in university which provide funding for studies and research. By putting them in the outer we could be throwing the baby out with the bath water.

    • Mark G says:

      10:23am | 02/02/12

      Anthony,

      You don’t need to have a degree in something to do a study on it. You don’t create and academic qualification to disprove said qualification.

    • Anthony says:

      10:51am | 02/02/12

      No but you need money. Perhaps a better way to influence debate would be for said academics to fund research out of their budgets to shut down these colleges then none of us could argue. I would much rather get into an argument about the strength of evidence than about yelling down a group of people I do not believe in. As yet there are no studies, no funding and they survive and will continue to survive. The best way to get rid of them is proper studies funded through universities.

    • Kassandra says:

      12:51pm | 02/02/12

      Trials of “alternative” remedies using the same methodology as used for prescription pharmaceuticals have been done. A surprising number of them in fact. They don’t have any effects beyond placebo effects. The products can still be sold because they are sold as dietary supplements or food products not as medicines, and are not subject to the same requirements for proof of efficacy and safety as medicines are. Many believe that they should be dealt with as pharmaceuticals, because they do make all sorts of claims of treating various illnesses even though they are not supposed to, and then they would have to put up evidence to support their claims like pharmaceutical manufacturers do in order to market them to the public.

    • Anthony says:

      04:07pm | 02/02/12

      Fish Oil trials were being sold and advocated long before the establishment performed clinical trials as was Vitamin D. CoQ10 is still recommended for statin myalgias by the health profession. More money needs to be put into this and universities have the capacity to fund it.

    • James In Footscray says:

      04:57pm | 02/02/12

      Good point about the trials Anthony - I guess the main problem the article highlights is the existence of undergraduate courses, not research.

    • Roy says:

      06:48am | 02/02/12

      Yeah homeopathy is a crock, but so is religion and they also teach theology at University. Maybe ban the lot until there is proof they work/exist.

    • Richard says:

      09:11am | 02/02/12

      Prove that they don’t exist/ don’t work and maybe then they can be banned.

    • Nick says:

      12:53pm | 02/02/12

      Prove that their isn’t a flying spaghetti monster floating around Neptune. Oh you can’t? By your logic now universities should teach pastafarianism.

    • Rae says:

      06:56am | 03/02/12

      Religion is closely tied to history, civilizations, culture, a way of life in the past and many current cultures. I think that makes it worthy of study at a University level, if not for the historical artefacts alone. Religion as a concept does exist, just like mythology etc. As to whether a person believes the theory of religion vs the theory of atheism (which appears to be a religion in itself with as many fanatics pushing their agenda like hardline religious folk) this should be up to an individual to decide.

    • Hoob says:

      06:49am | 02/02/12

      There’s money in witchcraft, that’s all a University needs to know.  If there’s money they are can’t happy to peddle to the alternative nutbags.

    • Vivian says:

      06:57am | 02/02/12

      Sort of an own goal. “Climate Science” anyone?

    • Mahhrat says:

      07:06am | 02/02/12

      The cake is a lie, James.

      You’re right in everything you say though.  I hypothesise that you won’t be “very junior” for long.

    • Anthony says:

      07:10am | 02/02/12

      “    A small crack appears

      In my diplomacy-dike.
      “By definition”, I begin
      “Alternative Medicine”, I continue
      “Has either not been proved to work,
      Or been proved not to work.
      You know what they call alternative medicine
      That’s been proved to work?
      Medicine.”
        ”

      —Tim Minchin, Storm

    • Mik says:

      07:21am | 02/02/12

      Placebos have their place.It is harm that is the issue. Same for religion.

    • marley says:

      07:59am | 02/02/12

      placebos have their place - but it isn’t in universities.

    • neo says:

      09:56am | 02/02/12

      Placebos are used in medicine and should be taught about at unis, marley. Fail.

    • marley says:

      12:28pm | 02/02/12

      @neo - placebos are taught in university neo.  They just aren’t taught as being “cures” for organic diseases.

    • neo says:

      12:47pm | 02/02/12

      So placebos have a place at universities then ay.

    • Kassandra says:

      02:20pm | 02/02/12

      In medical schools students are traditionally taught the art as well as the science of medicine. The art of being a good doctor includes being aware of and utilising placebo effects along with medical science to benefit patients. The difference is that doctors have a science-based understanding of placebo effects while so-called alternative treatments are nothing but placebo effects. Placebo is by definition a non-specific or pseudo-treatment effect, the study of the pseudo-treatments producing it as a university course in itself is a nonsense.

    • Wayne says:

      07:25am | 02/02/12

      “The Demon Haunted World” by Carl Sagan is a longer version of this article, and extremely well written.

      I think Uncle Carl might agree with not only your points, but your style in getting them across.

      Well written.

    • TChong says:

      07:50am | 02/02/12

      Wayne
      Fan of the Great Dr Carl?
      His works can be long winded, but “Cosmos” ( both book and DVDs) are still pretty good stuff.
      As his partner says in the DVDs, very little of his work has been made redundant, despite almost 30 yrs of further science.

    • Tubesteak says:

      07:31am | 02/02/12

      “a fascist, an elitist, arrogant, narrow-minded, a shill for sociopathic corporate interests, viciously protective of my orthodoxy and a generally morally reprehensible crusader for the intellectual interests of old, white men”

      Judging by the source of these claims I’d be taking them as a compliment.

      Nothing like being called “arrogant” by the ignorant to warm the heart.

    • Nathan Explosion says:

      07:34am | 02/02/12

      Maybe homeopathy could give Lord Voldemort up there back his nose!

      The most awkward moment at Death Eater camp is when they’re all playing “Got your nose!” and old Voldie walks in…

    • SimpleSimon says:

      08:11am | 02/02/12

      Hahaha! Well done.

    • neo says:

      10:01am | 02/02/12

      Anyone else thought that the author in the pic above looks like Voldemort. Like, the flash made it look like he has no nose raspberry

    • Harry P says:

      03:47pm | 02/02/12

      According to homoeopathy, Lord Voldemort’s nose is th emore dangerous, yes?

    • bleD says:

      07:39am | 02/02/12

      It is money which is at the root of this problem. University administrators who hold the purse strings only care about bums on seats as it affects their funding. They have prostituted their ideals for the almighty dollar.

    • Beverley Diplock says:

      07:40am | 02/02/12

      So Homeopathy is quackery! How come we have homeopathic doctors…Doctors who have degrees( and reistered) in conventional medicine and then add homepathic remedies to their ensemble?

    • Space Ghost says:

      07:58am | 02/02/12

      Anyone claiming to be a Doctor and selling you homeopathy is a quack.

    • marley says:

      07:59am | 02/02/12

      Because there’s money to be made in homeopathy.

    • Dan says:

      08:08am | 02/02/12

      Because they are as silly as you!

    • SimpleSimon says:

      08:14am | 02/02/12

      For the same reason it exists in universities - idiots will pay for it. The doctor adds a pseudo-science to his list of offerings, tin-foil hat people come to see him because they don’t trust actual medicine, he gives them water and calls it “homeopathic”, and then they pay him! It’s brilliant, actually…

    • Gordon Campbell says:

      08:39am | 02/02/12

      Yes, how come we have them? Maybe if we all pointed at them and laughed in a very cruel way at their foolishness, we’d be able to discourage them—or at least persuade patients to go to better doctors.

    • mr mark says:

      08:39am | 02/02/12

      because $30 for a jar of water is more profitable than actual medicine?

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      08:51am | 02/02/12

      “How come we have homeopathic doctors…”

      A lie is a lie no matter how many people believe it, and the truth is the truth no matter how few.  If you can wheel out a few doctors that have lost their ability to apply critical thinking, that’s not an indictment on the claim that homeopathy doesn’t work.  It’s an indictment on those poor befuddled doctors.

    • MarkS says:

      09:19am | 02/02/12

      I will give you reasons

      Just because you believe in death & taxes does not stop you also believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden.
      Many patients react better to the real medicine if a bit of magic is thrown into the mix as well.
      Since some fools will only go to witchdoctors, it is best if some real doctors are also witch doctors.
      You get more patients, more patients mean more money.

      Note that none of the above reasons require that magic works. An argument that because some real doctors also use Homeopathy therefore Homeopathy cannot be quackery is illogical. One does not follow the other.

    • neo says:

      10:10am | 02/02/12

      Well, homeopathy will work in some cases, with some remedies, so a good doctor should know which remedy will work and which won’t. Allergy patients are treated with small doses of the things they are allergic to to get their bodies used to it, we all inject ourselves with vaccines for the same reason and we give amphetamines to hyperactive kids.

      Yeah, of course there are plenty of charlatans selling you coloured water, but some homeopathic methods definitely have a solid, proven track record.

    • Steve Putnam says:

      10:17am | 02/02/12

      A client of mine, a former professor of thoracic surgery, was not opposed to alternative medicine as such, but he was of the view that homeopaths too often ventured outside their fields of expertise.
      An earlier comment about chiropractic being fake just does not hold water with me. Thirty years ago when I injured my back in an industrial accident, I was sent to the “compo doctor”. He duly advised me to lie down with my back on an ice pack which did nothing at all. I then visited another doctor who prescribed muscle relaxants and pain killers which though they enabled me to sleep at night made the situation worse. By the end of the week I was so locked up I was barely able to walk. At the suggestion of a friend, I visited his chiropractor. He immediately pin-pointed where he thought trouble lay and then following a precautionary x-ray, commenced treatment. He showed me first what the problem was by reference to the x-rays, and then what he would be doing to right it. He was thoroughly empirical in his method; there was no mysticism or jargon involved.
      After the first visit I was able to walk freely again and then, following a further two visits was able to play cricket again.
      Since then I have been taking chiropractic treatment whenever the need arises and would un-hesitatingly recommend it to anyone. I would however add that (as with doctors) some chiropractors are better than others.

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      10:26am | 02/02/12

      “but some homeopathic methods definitely have a solid, proven track record.”

      No, they absolutely do not.  Show me any, respectable peer reviewed study that shows ANY homeopathy works.

    • barry from adelaide says:

      07:42am | 02/02/12

      This article is nothing but common sense!

    • St. Michael says:

      11:30am | 02/02/12

      Good call, we can’t have common sense anywhere on the Hunch.

    • Trickster says:

      07:49am | 02/02/12

      “And the case so far is this: 100 per cent of all rabbits have been observed to be in magician’s sleeves. Not one, so far, has managed to apparate out of the hat.”

      Uhhh.. when I do that trick the rabbit is in a compartment in the table under the black silk covering and the hat has a false bottom. Admittedly it’s not coming “out of the hat” per se, cos its not *in* the hat, but it isn’t in my sleeve either. It would probably chew the aces if it was.
      Just sayin.

    • Chris says:

      08:27am | 02/02/12

      Heh - I wondered about that comment myself.

      Maybe the scientist who made the finding that rabbits come from sleeves didn’t have a research methodology right?

    • James Ricketson says:

      07:55am | 02/02/12

      The book to read on this, and it is a great and very amusing read, is BAD SCIENCE by Ben Goldacre. “You’ll laugh your head off, then throw all those expensive health foods in the bin,” one critic observed. Another: “A fine lesson in now to skewer the enemies of reason and peddlers of cant and half truths.” Goldacre lets no-one off the hook - not homeopathy, drug companies, self-styled nutritionists or lazy journalists. Good piece, James.

    • Charles Hagan says:

      08:46am | 03/02/12

      Totally agree with the two James’. Ben’s book is great if you want further insight into how modern day snake oil pedlars are using science sounding words and graphs to sell their ineffective products and hokum philosophies. His debunking of these pseudo-scientific charlatans deserves greater recognition and reminds us all, not just scientists, that we need to be ever vigilant about what we accept as fact and where that information comes from.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      08:02am | 02/02/12

      You cant cure cancer by getting someone to sniff some lavender scent likewise you cant cure anyone by getting them to listen to recordings of babbling brooks or showing them pleasing colours so all this sort of shit shouldnt be taught in unis if you want to learn it go to the unversity of Nimbin but dont expect me to subsidise it.
      At the same time we teach in schools that there is a omnipresent supernatural dictator controling your life, who also happened to create the earth 5000 years ago, which is the biggest con job in history yet has lots of simple minded people believing it and accepting it as fact without one ounce of evidence lets elimanate any funding for the teaching of that fraud today and pump the money into teaching facts not fiction.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      09:27am | 02/02/12

      Nimbin has a university? Where do I sign up?

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      09:39am | 02/02/12

      Any cafe there has an educational program shane.

    • neo says:

      10:14am | 02/02/12

      Nimbin University - Teaching People to Communicate With Walls Since 1840.

    • Lukew says:

      04:55pm | 02/02/12

      You can’t ‘cure’ cancer at all, you can treat it though and there have been all sorts of unexplained remissions and recoveries from dire diseases that science cannot explain the trouble is that adherents to science seem to think it has all the answers and that is so far from the truth it is not funny.  Having said that I don’t think Universities are appropriate for alternate studies, purely because they are alternate.  There are more appropriate ways for the alternate information to be taught.

    • MarkS says:

      08:03am | 02/02/12

      Sure Homeopathy and its ilk are magic, witchdoctors. But they do have a placebo effect & it is a good idea to ensure that the witchdoctors do no active harm. The simple fact is that most people believe in magic, if you do not give them a little magic they are unsure of the effectiveness of the treatment.

      As long as Universities have their pseudo-sciences like Gender Studies & most of the so called social sciences & their approved cults in Theology. Both of which do more social harm then the witchdoctors. There will remain a place for the witchdoctors.

    • Anthropologist says:

      09:30am | 02/02/12

      my anthropology lecturer told a funny story about witch doctors.

      He was doing fieldwork in Lesotho in the 70s, when tribal customs were more prevalent than they are now. He was (probably still is) about 6’2” and blonde & blue-eyed and played as a second rower so had a solid build to him.. basically a large unit and v-e-r-y white. The tribes found him either a novelty or a threat - particularly he threatened a withdoctor with science and reason over superstition.
      The witchdoctor cursed him and he laughed ‘your curses are empty, nobody controls my fate but me.’
      Went home and made a show of ignoring the witchdoctor - had a few drinks, made dinner - left the lights on so people could see into his house and see that he was ignoring the curse.
      Then a blackout came and he lit a candle… and cos he had decided to get deliberately drunk for his tribal audience, he passed out and the candle burned his house down and the people had to drag him out.
      Witch doctor power restored…

    • subotic says:

      08:03am | 02/02/12

      Thank god I went to the School of Hard Knocks.

      All they teach you there is common bloody sense 101, and most of the lesson come free of charge….

    • John says:

      08:12am | 02/02/12

      Has any one witnesses a major accident and heard some one yell out “is anyone here an aromatherapist!” ???? There should be a clue there.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      09:46am | 02/02/12

      hahahaha best post of the day John congrats.

    • Mack says:

      09:59am | 02/02/12

      Good one, John!  grin

    • Shane* says:

      10:39am | 02/02/12

      Can’t recall the show, but a British skit show had a dramatic car accident victim brought into the emergency room, where two homeopathist doctors tried desperately to heal his massive internal injuries using a piece of blue Toyota Carola diluted a million times in water. They couldn’t. They were so depressed they hit the pub for a drop of beer in a pint glass of water, which was deemed “strong stuff.”

    • Professor Roy Hinkley says:

      10:39am | 02/02/12

      Neither has anyone yelled “is anyone here a dermatologist!”. For a major accident, you need “major accident specialists”. Many people call them ambos, paramedics, ED physicians and so on.

      Your jab may have greater resonance when arguing with Christian Scientists, who eschew all medical interventions, believing that all cures can be found by reading the Bible. As far as I know, if an accident has ever involved a Christian Scientist, no-one has ever yelled “get this man to a Reading Room!”

    • James1 says:

      11:30am | 02/02/12

      “His kindeys seem to be failing.  Quick, gentlemen, consult your Bibles.”

    • John Freame says:

      06:45pm | 02/02/12

      Thanks Bella, that youtube clip is brilliant.
      Sir Ronald and Mack, thanks for the vote of confidence.
      Professor, I agree, for a major accident, you need “major accident specialists”, and for cancer you need “cancer specialists”, also known as Medical oncologists, Radiation oncologists or even Surgical oncologists. not someone prescribing a good drink of water!!!!!

    • Not that Kate, another one. says:

      08:13am | 02/02/12

      II need to take issue with your paragraph about scientists not being close minded or wedded to their ideas. You need to single out frauds like Wakefield and Burzynski - they totally break that rule.

      But then again, it’s probably questionable whether they are actual scientists anyway.

    • Joe says:

      09:47am | 02/02/12

      “No true Scotsman”

    • Jenna says:

      08:16am | 02/02/12

      I agree with the need to review alternate medicine, but to include complimentary medicine in this debate is just a tad ignorant.
      Complimentary medicine seeks not to replace ‘western’ medicine but support them, and know when to refer on. As a remedial therapist, I studied many hours of biology, physiology, anatomy etc. These courses were developed by ‘traditional’ scientists and professors.

      I learnt indications and contraindications for treating people regardless of whether they are under the care of another practitioner.

      Complimentary medicine has a place, and a very important one at that. I believe if you are also referring to complimentary medicine, it is the education provided and course outlines you need to be assessing before outlawing them altogether.

    • Mark G says:

      10:18am | 02/02/12

      The same burden of proof applies to complimentary medicine. Just because you say that you are not trying to replace conventional medicine doesn’t make your cause any more credable. Those treatments that are given to support medical treatments (that have actually been proven to work) are therapies (ie physio) not complimentary medicines or treatments. The difference is that therapies ARE part of western medicine and HAVE been tested scientifically. They become part of western medicine even if they have originated from alternative sources. Why do you need a seperate category if you are part of western medicine? ie what do you call complementary/alternative medicine that works? Medicine.

    • kate says:

      02:31pm | 07/02/12

      “Complimentary medicine”:

      Dr:  You look fabulous in that outfit
      Patient:  Why thank you doctor, I feel so much better now!  And I love what you’ve done with the surgery.

      Or perhaps you meant “complementary”??

    • Chris says:

      08:19am | 02/02/12

      I think Craig D above has made the most valid point in response to this article.

      The centre of the article appears to be that alternative medicine should not be taught in universities.  I disagree with that premise.

      Universities are for study - they are for exploring things and investigating things.  They are also for the teaching of knowledge to allow people to further explore that knowledge in new ways.

      Universities teach philosophy, theology (in a number of different religions), art, ancient history, law and many other topics that can be considered “non-scientific”.  Are you suggesting these should all be banned?

      It is arrogance (and I hesitate to use the word and be placed by default into the cohort of those your dismiss as intellectually challenged - but it is the correct word) to suggest that modern science knows everything.

      Every scientific body for the last 2000 years has claimed to have all the answers of its time.  Such answers included our flat Earth, the benefits of smoking tobacco, opium use, heroin (encouraged because of its many benefits, including being good for one’s complexion).  Such things have, of course, since been disproven.  Often by people who were dismissed by the (then) modern scientific community as being idiots, fanciful, magicians or witches.  Some were, of course, killed for their findings that are now accepted world wide.

      It is the exploration of things that are unknown, followed by genuine and meaningful study and debate, followed in turn by more exploration and investigation, that results in advances both in medicine and elsewhere.  To dismiss things that you do not presently understand simply because your “knowledge” is so high is, to me, the definition of arrogance.

      “Scientists” have made mistakes in the past, will make mistakes in the future, and I have no doubt that a number (if not many) presently well accepted and understood scientific theories on a number of topics will be proven to be false in the future, long after we are gone.

      To suggest that teaching knowledge of unproven (and note I haven’t chosen to engage on the level of proof/disproof, which is only parenthetical to the issue) things should be stifled at university level is to seek only to stagnate the level of exploration and discovery.

    • marley says:

      09:37am | 02/02/12

      The problem with your argument is that homeopathy isn’t “unproven,” it’s “disproven.”  We no longer teach that the earth is flat or that tobacco is beneficial to your health, so why would we teach that homeopathy works?  It’s been as thoroughly debunked as the other two theories.

    • Chris says:

      10:13am | 02/02/12

      Homeopathy, although the focus, was not the primary point of the article as I read it.

      I read the author as seeking to limit university education on any issues that the scientific community (whatever that is) did not accept.  The specific example was homeopathy because some 400 scientists made a submission about it.

      My point is that stiffling education and, as a result, further research into that area is not necessarily a correct response.

      An analogy is in the area of immunisations.  The early immunisations for tetanus (I think it was tetanus, but I don’t have time to confirm which one it was), although rolled out nation wide, were subsequently demonstrated to be ineffective.  As a result, based on the above article, we should have simply dismissed it as unproven and quashed it completely.  However, further research, study and investigation was done which, in turn, resulted in a vaccine that is now regarded as being effective.  That second vaccine would not have been produced if the education, study and research on it had simply ceased as a result of the “dissproved” status.

      My point is - research into things which are presently disproved (and again I’m choosing not to engage on that issue as it is not my intended point) can result in research into useful things in the future.  Dismissing them outright is not helpful.  Many current medically accepted treatments resulted from further research into dissproven or undirected research (Fleming and penicillin being a classic example) - again, such things would not have taken place in the world that the writer seeks to establish.

      The same argument goes for cars, planes, rockets, space travel and a myriad of other practical (but I would argue still “scientific”) discoveries.  That is - they simply didn’t work at first.  Often the first designers/inventors failed miserably.  But if nobody had continued to look in to those areas then they would not have improved on previously defunct ideas and concepts.

      I’ve really just made the same point again I guess - but hopefully it clarifies the position.

    • Steve4 says:

      10:40am | 02/02/12

      Again with the “non-scientific” subject argument

      History, law, economics, philosophy and art make very few claims that can be assessed by scientific reason. They are valid areas of study for either what we as a society have done, are doing, or are going to do. But even within them, critical thinking and logic is paramount (with the possible exception of economics…)

      The only subjects outside of science that can be assessed by scientific means are some of the more literal teachings of theology (the earth is not 6000 years old), anthropology to an extent, possibly psychology or psychiatry (although one could argue we don’t have the anatomical knowledge to accurately do so), and “alternative” medical treatments that claim to cure or treat people.

      Anybody who understands science never sees the theory of the day as explaining everything definitively. The theories are simply the best methods of explaining the world we observe, and are the best theories available for the information we have. As more information is obtained or analysed, then these theories are bound to improve or change.

      Now I’m all for studying these things in a rational manner, but the way most of these courses are constructed is not rational. They start from the premise that what they say works, rather than testing whether or not it does.

      The sad thing is some of these unproven, disproven and often ridiculous ideas are used to generate money which is used for scientific research in some universities. This is why the universities are holding onto them even when they know they are rubbish. That is really the issue here, and while they generate money (which is what the government insists on universities doing, so they can use the funds on baby bonuses or something) they simply won’t remove them.

    • Chris says:

      11:04am | 02/02/12

      Hey Steve,

      Thanks for your reply, I think your point is well made regarding scientific theory.  The difficulty is the many scientists regard current scientific theory as established fact, and people who dispute or disagree with that theory are dismissed as foolish.  Such a response is not usually called for nor is it helpful to further scientific discovery.  That is simlar, although peripheral, to the argument regarding “alternative” medicine.

      Your other comments now moves into a slightly different argument (towards the end) relating to two topics:

      First - how these courses are conducted in the universities.  I accept that many of these courses are not very well run.  My wife is doing a bachelor of nutritional medicine at a tertiary institution.  She has two prior bachelors degrees from a well regarded mainstream university.  She has found that the quality of the teaching and scientific method in some of those courses leaves a lot to be desired.  So, in that respect, your point is well made.

      Your second point is a funding issue, which I think is a more difficult problem.  Studies around the world are funded by government or industry on topics that I personally consider to be a complete and utter waste.  However, as I have mentioned above, many valid and useful discoveries have been made from undirected (but still well funded) research into things that had no apparent benefit at the time.

      What is disproved today might be proved tomorrow, with only minor modifications.  Such discovery will only be made if the proponents of “disproved” are allowed to continue investigation.

      On the flip side, I too inherently dislike money being spent on things that are a waste of time.  However - what do you think about cancer research?  Possibly one of the most well funded areas, raising hundreds upon hundreds of millions of dollars but has yet to develop any particularly useful options that haven’t existed for many years.  Research will continue, however - is that money wasted?  Some of that research is into areas that are very poorly understood, or have previously been disregarded by previous study in one form or another.

      Cheerio,
      C

    • Markus says:

      03:33pm | 02/02/12

      Chris, those ‘unproven’ cancer treatments are not yet allowed to be sold to the public for that very reason, and rightly so.
      Do you think the same should apply to homeopathic remedies?

    • Chris says:

      04:38pm | 02/02/12

      Hi Markus,

      I’m deliberately not engaging on the “homeopathy is witchcraft” side of the argument - my points relate only to whether or not they should be taught in universities (or, more broadly, studied at all) rather than to the efficacy of the treatment.  That was the point I was making in connection with cancer research - not on its sale to the public.

      However, in principle, I do not believe that ineffective treatments should be sold to the public.  That said, it happens every day in more areas than just homeopathy. 

      What also happens every day is that pharmaceutical treatments are provided to patients without information regarding side-effects, without information regarding potential health impact and without regard to the long term consequences. 

      Antibiotics are a prime example, which are prescribed daily for every ailment under the sun.  More and more research is showing the foolishness of that approach to medical practice, and the global impact that such overuse is having on the increasing resistance of “bugs” to such chemicals.

      In short - yes I agree with the principle.  But I don’t think homeopaths are the only ones who sometimes engage in misinformation or “uninformation” as the case may be.

      Cheerio,
      C

    • Richard says:

      05:14pm | 02/02/12

      Chris, I think your comment really cut to the heart of this issue, and is the single most insightful thing I’ve read in 7 whole days of lengthy and vehement on various different forums.

    • Matty TZ says:

      08:27am | 02/02/12

      I am confused by all this jargon, it still doesn’t explain why they won’t let the gays get married.
      If I support climate change will they let us have our day in church. Now I just need to find a gay man that is willing to commit

    • cherie says:

      08:42am | 02/02/12

      @Beverley So Homeopathy is quackery! How come we have homeopathic doctors…Doctors who have degrees( and reistered) in conventional medicine and then add homepathic remedies to their ensemble?
      It brings in the dollars, simple, people want it Health insurance Companies
      know it, so you have a win win situation.

    • Kev says:

      08:50am | 02/02/12

      True science: demands that a given action - repeated,  creates an indentical demonstrable result. Homeopathy with all its other allied hanger-on philosophies and practices, like tarot cards, magic crystals and aroma therapy etc., cannot . Notice too, how homeopathy has only really grown ,  since the 70’s. Born no doubt,  coming out of all the la-la nonsensical theories and beliefs of the Hippie Generation era. Such a connection is no coincidence..

    • Chris says:

      11:32am | 02/02/12

      I have to disagree with your primary assertion - that is, that “true science” requires a demonstrable identical result.  That is untrue.  In fields of pharmaceutical study (just to pick one example) or many other areas of human research, results are considered statistically significant even where there are discrepencies up to a point.  Therefore, we accept as given some results despite them not being “identical”.

      Your premise also ignores, for example, chaos theory which, although mathamatical in basis, is used in fields of microbiology, physics, astronomy, geology and medicine (epilepsy studies, for example) amongst others.

      The reason for this is that minute differences in initial conditions can, according to the theory, have a dramatic impact on the final result.

      This means that our ability to “repeat” an action within a wide variety of fields is severly limited.  That does not render those fields unscientific - merely more complicated.  To limit science to the ability to repeat precisely certain consequences of a particular action is to artificially restrict, in my view, what it is.

    • Galooloo says:

      08:52am | 02/02/12

      Here we go. The scholars of science think they are the saviors of the masses. How is that any different to religions telling us that they are the saviors of the masses? Dogma is dogma regardless of how you dress it us. And this is scientific dogma.

      I am a scientist, a philosopher, and a user of both conventional medicine and alternative medicine. I expect to have choices in an intelligent world. This article and the so called Friends of Medicine are seeking to remove or at best - diminish my opportunities to choose.

      The history of science and medicine is not a pretty one and I dont see any reason to give away my freedom of choice and place trust the so called authorities of science and medicine who are no different to any other self interested lobby group.

      I would much prefer it if science spent its resources on climate change, dealing with nuclear waste, and giving us clean energy instead of trying to feather their own nest.

      I would like to remind the devotees of conventional medicine that it was not so long ago that doctors refused to wash their hands between surgery and delivering babies bringing about the avoidable deaths of countless women and babies. If you look closely at hospital infection rates and adverse events in hospitals, the major source of these sometimes fatal injuries to patients are the doctors themselves. Get your own house in order before you start throwing stones.

    • Lisa Meredith says:

      09:58am | 02/02/12

      Dear Galooloo,

      I too, deplore any scientist or science proponent who declares science to be the saviour of the masses.

      To quote one of my heroes - Jacob Bronowski:

      “One aim of the physical sciences has been to give an exact picture of the material world. One achievement of physics in the twentieth century has been to prove that that aim is unattainable.”

      “The world is not a fixed, solid array of objects, out there, for it cannot be fully separated from out perception of it.”

      “There is no absolute knowledge. And those who claim it, whether they are scientists or dogmatists open the door to tragedy. All information is imperfect. We have to treat it with humility. That is the human condition.”

      J Bronowski – The Ascent of Man

    • braunman says:

      10:06am | 02/02/12

      I think the bigger issue here is if you are actually a scientist…

    • monkeytypist says:

      10:12am | 02/02/12

      Of course Galooloo, conventional science has improved its methods. That is in fact the entire point - when confronted with *demonstrated evidence* that a particular thing didn’t work or was harmful, they stopped it, and tried something else. That is the difference - rigorous standards of proof and an inquiring mindset that demands evidence for contentions. That is how science advances. Waving hands in the air and saying “oh it works somehow, we’re just not how” isn’t good enough.

      There’s certainly a place for alternative medicine: when it is proven in clinical trials. Then, we can just call it “medicine”.

    • Galooloo says:

      10:52am | 02/02/12

      Dear braunman - my undergraduate degree says science but that is some decades old and I have evolved since then so perhaps I would no longer be admitted into the secret sect of scientists because my views are not those prescribed by the cult itself.

      Among the adventures of my science years I undertook research into the quality of medical care. A frightening topic.

      Today 350 patients were dying every two weeks because of the problem according to Professor Richardson of Monash University. See his discussion on The Quality in Australian Health Care Study in 1995 when it was estimated about 12,000 Australians were dying each year because of preventable events. ‘‘The issue of adverse events in the Australian health system should dominate all others. However, it would be closer to the truth to describe it as Australia’s best kept secret”. http://www.solicitoradvice.com/medicalerrorstats.htm

      It seems that the cult of science does not want the general public to be aware of the risks that patients take when they enter into treatment with a doctor and a hospital. While the science cult is pretending not to be a cult and accusing others of magic - who suffers? The patient.

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      11:09am | 02/02/12

      “How is that any different to religions telling us that they are the saviors of the masses?”

      Oh, I don’t know.  Maybe the fact that science is proven to work as a method of understanding the world and religion isn’t.  Maybe one’s a dogma based on unquestioning faith and belief and the other mandates questioning as a way of learning.

      ” I expect to have choices in an intelligent world.”

      You put the word “intelligent” in the wrong place.  It should be in front of “choices”.

      “The history of science and medicine is not a pretty one”

      So, will you be one of those who go blindly to their death while eating organic lettuce, or one who turns to evil western medicine for the extra months/years it gives cancer sufferers?  Or better, one of those who upon realising the abject failure of their nonsense woo medicine turn to western medicine long after there is any hope?

      “I would like to remind the devotees of conventional medicine”

      As a scientist, you should know better than this.  I doubt you are a scientist if this is your stance, at best, you are inept in your application of the scientific method.  Let me make it simple.  Science changes as we learn.  Claiming that science was wrong in the past, and despite demonstrable benefits from learning from those mistakes, that science must still be mistrusted and wrong, is ridiculous.  Drop the scientist title and become some master of woo, where you’re never wrong, because you never make testable claims.

    • Galooloo says:

      11:15am | 02/02/12

      dear monkeytypist - clinical trials are designed for conventional science by conventional science.

      This approach is both useful and not. The solid scientific literature on the topic of double blind trials is considerable. It is not always the best way to evaluate. To stick with an approach just because it is scientific when we know it is inadequate is dogma.

      If clinical trials were really the best approach why then are so many pharmaceuticals and medical devices subsequently proven to be dangerous and even fatal to patients? These drugs and devices have been trialed and failed regardless.

    • mel says:

      11:15am | 02/02/12

      +1 to Lisa Meredith for the Bronowski reference.

      The end of the “Knowledge or Certainty” episode from the TV show is, for me, the most harrowing but the most humane, magnificent piece of television ever made. More power to you and all Bronowski fans.

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      11:31am | 02/02/12

      “While the science cult is pretending not to be a cult and accusing others of magic - who suffers? The patient.”

      Shut down conventional medicine hospitals, open up reiki and aromatherapy centres to treat trauma patients and I can guarantee you you’ll be howling for the “cult” to start up again if you have a shred of decency in you.

    • Galooloo says:

      11:54am | 02/02/12

      Tim the toolman - I am so glad that you use the word ‘tool’ in your title. It suits you.

      Keep telling us we are stupid. Its the best you can do to be open minded.

    • mel says:

      12:46pm | 02/02/12

      Galooloo, your reference to medical error stats seems to be about mistakes made by medical practitioners whilst looking after patients, ie “unintended injuries from medical care”, not about the cult of science hiding adverse results. Thanks for telling us that humans make mistakes but how is this relevant to your thesis?

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      01:19pm | 02/02/12

      “Keep telling us we are stupid. Its the best you can do to be open minded.”

      I don’t believe I ever called anyone stupid….nope, can’t find that in there anywhere.  I can see you personally insulting me there though. 

      As for being open minded, I tend to find that people who claim they are open minded are not.  They think they are, because they believe in all kinds of things which lack anything but anecdotal evidence.  That’s not being open minded, it’s being gullible and not applying critical thinking.

    • Galooloo says:

      05:00pm | 02/02/12

      Mel are you suggesting that while humans make mistakes that science does not?

      Science is not the problem. The problem is self interested scientists.

      I recall in my long ago scientific adventures - scientists applying for and obtaining funding for projects that were of absolutely no good use to anyone but great for their careers.

      I doubt that research funding priorities have changed much since then although I acknowledge that in the last decade research funding priorities have actually been adopted. However I clearly recall the researchers complaints about the potential for narrowing of their scope to obtain funds when funding priorities were being developed.

      My view is that the prevailing scientific culture continues to be self promotion with little or no thought for the contribution to scientific knowledge or humanity.

    • WarBaby says:

      05:01pm | 02/02/12

      @ Galaloo, so true.  I teach ethics, scientific research, anatomy, physiology and pathophysiology to complementary health practitioners. The most telling comment ever made on iatrogenic deaths was from a specialist four decades ago ‘The medical profession buries its mistakes’.  I see the
      swept under the carpet’ morbidity reports, most of the deaths are caused by mistakes in medicating, and there are thousands of them that slip under the radar (if you dig hard enough, you will find them in the ABS stats).  Be that as it may, if only one person in a million dies as the result of consulting a complementary health practitioner, there is a major witch hunt.
      I think personally think homoeopathy is not tenable as a therapy, but I have great respect for the proven results of many other therapies, including vibrational medicine, and can attest that acupuncture administered by a medical specialist saved me from months of pain from whiplash while a gifted orthopod reconstructed my lower spine, during which time I could not consult my other doctor who was also a chiropractor.  It might also interest you to know that the most prominent internal medicine specialist in this city is also a Reiki Master.  There are more things in heaven and earth that are dreamt of in the philosopies of many detractors (my thanks to the Bard for this support of metaphysics).

    • mel says:

      06:45am | 03/02/12

      Galooloo, your link was not about ‘self interested’ scientists seeking funding for research projects that were ‘no good to anyone’. (And who made that assessment anyway? Was that your interpretation or the consensus of the scientific community? One might ask what would you know about what research might contribute to scientific knowledge and humanity?)

      Your link had nothing to do with that. It had nothing to do with scientific research at all. Provide some evidence of the things you assert and people might believe you.

    • Carz says:

      09:00am | 02/02/12

      Funny how you start out lambasting complimentary and alternative medicine as a who but focus on homoeopathy. What about acupuncture, meditation, relaxation exercises?

      I do think that homoeopathy is a crock (and generally tastes like crap), however I think it is the practitioners who are making a difference. Consider a routine GP appointment; 10 minutes in and out generally, unless you have a really good GP (as I am lucky enough too). Only the problem of the day is discussed. “You have signs of an ulcer or indigestion, here’s a prescription, don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.” This may cure the immediate problem but it does not heal the patient. The complimentary and alternative medicine practitioner may spend an hour with the patient, find out about the stress in their life (eg an abusive partner, dying parent, potential unemployment and/or bankruptcy, etc) then hand out a bottle of water, a few herbs and a list of relaxation exercises. If the patient recovers then they feel not just cured of an illness but healed and listened to. Tell me which appointment is likely to have a lasting effect.

      Australian medicine needs to move away from the “go in, get a script, get out, pay a fortune” model that so predominates. Maybe then patients wouldn’t feel the need to look for alternatives.

    • Mattb says:

      02:38pm | 02/02/12

      I’ve had the same opinion of the majority of GP’s for a while now. It’s a simple five minutes of “what’s wrong, give us a look, I see, here’s a prescription for antibiotics, pay at the counter, see you later”. You know you have a half decent GP when you get several questions about your recent lifestyle, what changes there have been to it, diet and any stresses you have been under lately before they even ask you what your there to see them about. And quite often it’s the alternate thinking GP that is the one that starts the session with you this way.

    • steve massey says:

      05:28pm | 03/02/12

      For all the GP bashing its worth considering a few facts. 80% of consults in Australia are bulk billed (ie no direct cost to the patient). The medicare rebate on a bulk billed consult is $35-44 depending on where you work. The doctor may take home 60% of this, the rest goes to the running of the practice. 4x35x0.6 = $84 an hour. Most GPs will have undergone a minimum of 10years combined undergrad/post grad training to get to where they are. It’s all very well to complain they don’t spend enough time with you but the fact is if you want an hour with your GP, book an hour long appt, but be prepared to pay for it. Most GPs would love to spend more time with their patients, if people were more realistic about the real value of a GPs time.

    • Jo says:

      05:49pm | 04/02/12

      Wow clearly Steve Massey, none of those 80% of consults are happening in my area! Bulk billers have been extinct around here for years, unless you are a blind, disabled and gay pensioner of refugee origin…

    • MikeL says:

      05:57pm | 06/02/12

      It’s easy to spend an hour with each patient when you don’t have any professional obligations, no need for lifelong learning, no need for a vast body of (real) knowledge about human anatomy and physiology. To become a GP requires up to thirteen years of training after leaving school (four years undergrad, four years postgrad, two years in hospital and I believe three years of fellowship training). And it’s not optional pseudo-training, where you can skip bits of the training, or do a year at TAFE and call yourself a health practitioner. It’s nose to the grindstone stuff. At the end of that, the only way you’re going to have GPs who see each patient for an hour each is if they’re willing to be paid a pittance after gambling thirteen years of their lives to get trained, or if the government is willing to be bankrupted paying for $150 consultations and training five times as many GPs.

      Oh, and the reason that people (and the government) are willing to pay GPs for short consults now is because medicine works. Not every time on everyone, but so much better than anything that has gone before it that it beggars belief.

    • Seasidewriter says:

      09:02am | 02/02/12

      I wonder what you would have to say to a someone like myself - trained in sciences and worked in pharmaceutical industry for most of my young adult life into my 30’s.

      Then I had a son who became terribly ill and modern medicine was not able to offer him hope, we tried it all. Medicine, therapies etc. In desperation I found an MD who was also a trained Naturopath, who through the use of only herbs, vitamins and minerals cured my boy.

      3 years down the track he has no residual effects. I am one of the converted - and I promise you I didn’t want to be - it went against all my training and belief system (not to mention my career), to concede that ‘natural’ products far superseded scientific ones when it came to the health of my own child.

      I would not push my opinions on others in this subject matter, but I do believe that everyone has the right to seek treatments that they believe in, and thus the study of these modalities should be available to all who choose them.


      Live and let live. These people aren’t harming you or forcing you to seek their medical opinions in your own health matters, so leave them to their devices and move on.

    • braunman says:

      10:10am | 02/02/12

      Just out of interest, what did your son actually have?

    • Galooloo says:

      10:34am | 02/02/12

      Here Here. Lets have informed choice. Those of us that are truly scientists respect the simple fact that science knows very little about the art of medicine.

      I personally had a similar dilemma to the one described by Seasidewriter. Conventional science cured my cancer then 5 years later the complications of radiotherapy were killing me. Conventional medicine was important but by itself insufficient and alternative therapies were pivotal in my recovery from serious complications.

      If pathways could be forged for different modalities to work together patients would benefit. Unfortunately the self interest of doctors and other so called scientists continue to prevent the population from benefiting from available knowledge.

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      11:26am | 02/02/12

      ” These people aren’t harming you or forcing you to seek their medical opinions in your own health matters, so leave them to their devices and move on.”

      Except your son could have died.  And people will use this post to put their kids through more crap that has no evidence of working, and is often actively harmful.  But yeah, go for it.  When did ignorance and disinformation ever do anyone any harm?

      Me?  I always consult my tarot cards before crossing a road.  Never been hit yet!  I guess they must work!

    • Jeff G says:

      12:38pm | 02/02/12

      Bullshit.  You are making this up, a common tactic for alternative med proponents.  Unless you can PROVE this assertion it should be treated as gross and shameful dishonesty.

    • The Other Phil says:

      02:31pm | 02/02/12

      @Tim the Toolman: People have died while being involved in chemotherapy treatment regimes,heart transplants, giving birth to a child and many other practices that are part of conventional medicine. Does that mean that people can use that to dissuade people from engaging in any of that?

    • Chris Richardson says:

      02:43pm | 02/02/12

      Doesn’t matter. Anecdote is scientifically worthless. You should know that. You’re a “scientist” right? Anyway the issue is not whether people can access it, or even study it really - it’s just that it shouldn’t be given the imprimatur of a university if that university wants to maintain its credibility.

    • Kassandra says:

      02:51pm | 02/02/12

      I would say to you that your son probably cured himself. Stories like this one are not so rare as you might think. Every experienced doctor has probably seen at least one case of an apparently incurable condition mysteriously getting better. It is a well known phenomenon called spontaneous remission. It is exactly what most people experience when they get the flu, and then get better, but more dramatic. Recovery is always possible even in apparently hopeless cases - most will not recover but every now and then someone does. It is a miracle of the human body and how it works, not a miracle of alternative remedies.

    • Seasidwriter says:

      03:01pm | 02/02/12

      I am shocked at the viciousness of these comments. I treated both the author and anyone else commenting here with respect, and I expect the same in return, weather you agree with my belief system or not.

      My ‘story’ is true and I do have ‘proof’ to back it up and furthermore have passed along that ‘proof’ to the traditional medical system and my sons results have been studied extensively by his original practitioners for this very reason.

      I have many visits worth of records and notes from an esteemed pediatric neurologist in Denver CO detailing my sons sudden onset of seizures that stemmed immediately following a vaccination and re-occured almost hourly for a number of days, requiring PICU stay. Eventually dropping to daily seizures for almost a year until I found my Naturopath who (as I mentioned) was ALSO a qualified MD and he treated him to the point that he has had no observable or recordable seizures in 3 years.

      Following my sons ‘cure’, I went back to the SAME (original) Neurologist who told me point blank (along with being noted in his medical records) that “alternative’ treatments will never be proven with double blind studies because there’s no money in vitamins and herbs, but this boy is cured.”

      We have the follow up scans to prove it @Jeff G, so I suggest you take your comments and use your disparaging remarks elsewhere.

      @Tim the Toolman, my son could not have died, vitamins, homeopathics and herbs in the quantities that we used are not harmful to the human body. Hence the reason for my choosing a qualified MD trained in alternative therapies, I wanted to be sure this guy knew his stuff. I would never put my son’s life in danger whilst searching for an answer and in fact I ran ALL treatments by his Neurologist at all times for the same reason.

      As an aside, before someone says it, I am NOT anti-vaccine, despite my son being one of the few who have serious reactions.

    • Seasidewriter says:

      03:07pm | 02/02/12

      @Chris Richardson I never said I was a scientist, I said I worked in the pharmaceutical industry.

      @Kassandra, I am interested that you believe in the power of the body to ‘mysteriously’ heal itself, and yet you don’t believe in the power of herbs to do the same thing? (ie ‘mysteriously). I would truly be interested in hearing more from you as to how you feel one option is unexplainable and yet miraculous and the other unexplainable and yet impossible?

    • Chris Richardson says:

      03:15pm | 02/02/12

      I guess “trained in sciences” was a fairly irrelevant piece of information then.

    • Stoneage liberal says:

      03:22pm | 02/02/12

      I am very pleased that your son got better, parents are not meant to see thier children pass away… it is just not right. Dspite that This does not even need to be disproved to be invalid. Statistically these occurances will happen and these sorts of statistical coincidences then take a life of there own as anecdotal evidence. It is entirely possible that your son may have got better regardless of any treatments .It is to prevent this type of coincidence being accepted as a fact that we try to have high “n” values in statistical studies.

    • Kassandra says:

      03:42pm | 02/02/12

      @ seasidewriter

      The body has its own natural defences and restorative processes, some of which are well understood and some of which are not. Your son’s condition is not what I had in mind but the same principle still applies. Either the condition (or the underlying cause of it) runs its natural course and stabilises or goes away and the body recovers, or the body’s defences neutralise or counteract the problem. An effective treatment does the same thing, but in a proportion of cases is irrelevant to the recovery. We see this in controlled trials (which is why we need them) - say 40% recover in the control group (placebo) and 80% recover with the treatment. In this example probably half the improvement in the treatment group is attributable to placebo or spontaneous remission. With alternative treatments however there is no difference between control and treatment groups - the recovery or response rate is the same.

    • Aussie Wazza says:

      09:07am | 02/02/12

      If water can absolve our sins surely it can clean up a physical ailment.

      You just need to know and use the magic words.

    • Ozymandius says:

      09:07am | 02/02/12

      In regards to the issue of producing rabbits from hats: clearly, the energy requirement involved in generating a spatiotemporal wormhole inside the hat for the sole purpose of moving the rabbit is beyond most human brains.

      Only the High Initiates of Pastafarianism are capable of such things. They require years of study and the psychic assistance of the Flying Spaghetti Monster to do it, too. All hail the FSM and the Invisible Pink Unicorn!

      /sarcasm mode off

      Heh. The wondrous mystery and awesome grandeur of the universe that has been revealed to us by Science far outshines the crazy dribblings of mystical goat herders in desert tents over the past few millenia. It isn’t comfortable or nice or pleasant to recognise that homo sapiens is just one little species living on one little rock orbiting a fairly standard yellow star in an unfashionable arm of one Galaxy, but them is the breaks… hopefully we will eventually grow the hell up and stop killing each other for stupid reasons. I am not holding my breath, however.

    • Steve Putnam says:

      10:33am | 02/02/12

      Are you by any chance related to Ozymandias? Mighty though I am, I used to look on his works and despair!

    • Ozymandius says:

      10:59am | 02/02/12

      @ Steve Putnam: That’s the problem with alternative worlds. See, here in your world, my bro got called Ozymandias. In my world I got stuck with Ozymandius. Ozymandias and I fight about it all the time, and it’s no fun at family gatherings, either. And don’t get either of us started on Ozymandiuz, seriously, he’s the black sheep of the family.

    • Blind Freddy says:

      09:14am | 02/02/12

      “Homeopaths believe that water “remembers” an imprint of molecules that used to be in it if they are shaken together. These imprints grow over time, in such a way that the potency of the solution goes up as the amount of active ingredient goes down. These imprints are what make homeopathic solvents potent.”

      Recycled sewage water anyone? And to make it worse the cleaner it is the “shittier” the effect!

    • Jane2 says:

      09:15am | 02/02/12

      The problem with homeopathy is not homeopathy itself, as so many of our current medicines are derived from natural versions, but the idiots who call themselves homeopaths who only have a certificate from some wacky by correspondence course.

      It is wrong to tar all with the same brush.

    • Shane* says:

      10:40am | 02/02/12

      Wrong Jane2… the problem IS homeopathy itself.

    • Gregg says:

      09:16am | 02/02/12

      James your photo depicts someone very serious and honest and I’m not using magic to come to that conclusion,
      But the Easter Bunny ain’t coming!, Oh Jiminey Cricket!

      So I suppose the question really needs to be asked who is overseeing the content of courses that get offered when it comes to more serious training like medicine.
      Or is that expecting some black magic to work for the better.

    • Shane says:

      09:27am | 02/02/12

      geesus, it took about 30 internet seconds before this devolved into a bunch of wankers arguing about climate change.

      everyone knows magic is real anyway.

    • neo says:

      09:37am | 02/02/12

      I think some of the doctors here should take these courses, it would help them be better at their job. There are numerous herbs in the world which are medicinally beneficial, and very few doctors in Australia are educated beyond the old “take these pain killers and you will be alright.” A real doctor/pharmacist should know natural medicine as well.

    • Professor Roy Hinkley says:

      09:49am | 02/02/12

      Do you really want to close down Southern Cross University?

    • Chris Richardson says:

      03:05pm | 02/02/12

      Possibly. It was certainly funny to hear Steven Novella and his crew play “Name That Logical Fallacy” with Professor Iain Graham’s recent defence of his ‘university’ offering homeopathy courses. He said “Eighty percent of Australians seek alternative therapies…obviously orthodox medicine is not working for everyone.”

      Come on everybody play!

    • Don Paul says:

      09:59am | 02/02/12

      “...I’ve been a fascist, an elitist, arrogant, narrow-minded, a shill for sociopathic corporate interests, viciously protective of my orthodoxy and a generally morally reprehensible crusader for the intellectual interests of old, white men.”

      James, I believe you’ve been on the receiving end of the Left wing handbook: ‘What To Do If You Have No Argument 101’. Also on the list:“racist”, “homophobic”,“misogynist”, “bogan”.

      Homeopathy should be taught in universities, in History and Anthropology. Not Science or Medicine.

    • Steve4 says:

      10:43am | 02/02/12

      I’m a leftie, and agree with James entirely (more people in the sciences are lefties). You shouldn’t tar all us with the crackpots magical, extra diluted brush

    • Soulnutrition says:

      10:05am | 02/02/12

      All of these disciplines are to do with health care, How people treat their own health should be a choice not society narrowing options to the ever expensive & narrow western science base of health. By doing so will be wiping out lots of social capital and traditions that have helped people through out the years and help these professors ego’s by only giving research grants to serve their own interest.

    • neo says:

      10:22am | 02/02/12

      Agreed, western health focuses on curing the symptoms, not the underlying conditions. But I guess there’s no money in cures, only in treatments.

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      11:34am | 02/02/12

      “How people treat their own health should be a choice”

      Yeah, kids should drink their magic water to make that asthma attack go away.  Oh wait, they’re dead.  Guess it worked in a way.

      “But I guess there’s no money in cures, only in treatments.”

      Yeah, that’s why we vaccinate diseases into non-existence!  Holy crap, I half wish you people really did avoid western medicine.  You don’t deserve the benefits we reap from it every day.

    • neo says:

      12:54pm | 02/02/12

      We vaccinate against diseases that are untreatable and lead to a quick death. No money to be made there.

      I honestly think a cure for AIDS was found years ago, as well as many other things. Big pharma are the most equipped to come up with cures and they are the same people who would lose money from cures. That’s my conspiracy theory anyway.

    • Kika says:

      01:38pm | 02/02/12

      Neo - AIDS is a virus.  Just as the common cold is a virus.

      Don’t you think if they found a cure for AIDS they’d also have a crack at a cold?

      Viruses replicate inside cells. the AIDS virus destroys the white blood cells that keep your immune system strong. That is why those with AIDS die of AIDS related illnesses, not the virus itself. To find a cure for AIDS means you have to find a cure which destroys the virus, but not the cells. The best they have come up with so far is treatment for the virus, which boosts the immune system of the carrier to prevent them from succubming to things like cancers and pneumonia too early.

    • marley says:

      02:03pm | 02/02/12

      @neo - “We vaccinate against diseases that are untreatable and lead to a quick death. No money to be made there.”

      Oh BS.  We vaccinate against all sorts of diseases, by no means all of them untreatable or leading to a quick death.  Think whooping cough, influenza, mumps, German measles, measles - they can kill, but mostly they just cost the health and social systems a mozza in medical care and lost productivity.  And then consider diphtheria, pneumonia, typhoid, even tetanus - all treatable diseases these days.  But we vaccinate for them.in order to save lives, but also in order to save money on antibiotics, antivirals and a range of other pharmaceuticals.  Why should HIV vaccines be any different?  Big pharma would make gazillions vaccinating the world.

    • neo says:

      02:22pm | 02/02/12

      1. AIDS is a diseace, HIV is the virus that causes it.

      2. There are hundreds of different viruses which cause that which you call the “common cold”.

      As I said, it’s a conspiracy theory, if they found a cure for any illness, it would be unprofitable to release it because they can make much more money off treating that illness. You seem to think pharma companies care about the greater good, I merely suggest that they only care about profits.

    • F-Point says:

      02:24pm | 02/02/12

      Neo, do you really think there’d be no money to be made from a cancer cure???

    • neo says:

      02:35pm | 02/02/12

      These vaccines are provided by governments though, not by the big pharma. As I said, they would make a lot of money if they had a cure for AIDS, but they are making shitloads more already treating it.

    • neo says:

      02:54pm | 02/02/12

      For the third or fourth time today, there is money to be made from a cure, but there is a lot MORE money to be made from a treatment.

      A healthy person does not put coin into big pharma’s pockets, only sick people do. Thus, it is in the financial interest of the big pharma to have as many sick people as they can. Why, then, would they want to make a sick person healthy?

      There’s more to the theory, eg: creating and releasing new viruses that cause treatable diseases into the world is financially beneficial as well, but that’s some hardcore conspiracy if it were true.

    • Chris Richardson says:

      03:10pm | 02/02/12

      Quick neo, back into the matrix!

    • neo says:

      03:22pm | 02/02/12

      Haha, but I’ve been welcomed to the real world! :(

    • subotic says:

      03:48pm | 02/02/12

      @Kika, I work for the Health Department.

      AIDS itself is NOT a virus.

      Honestly….

    • Kika says:

      04:04pm | 02/02/12

      Well, a cure may be in stem cells… and you know what they say about stem cells. It’s possible to cure a lot of things, but there’s too many people out there against it.

    • marley says:

      06:19pm | 03/02/12

      @neo - geez - these vaccines are provided by government, not by big Pharma? from whom, exactly do you think governments by the vaccines?  ummm. yes, that would be, big Pharma.

    • NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

      10:12am | 02/02/12

      Hi James,

      I am sorry to tell you but may be you have chosen the wrong profession to begin with!  It is called mind over matter!  For the most obvious reasons, some people are just fascinated by all those new methods of healing patients, when all else fails!  Also I presume that as human beings we just have to be hopeful & determined till the very end.

      I also think that modern medicine could be wonderful & helpful most of the time. However, ultimately for some patients wanting to get better it does not offer any thing to boost their emotional well being, most unfortunately!  Most people can swear by the power of believing in anything to fill the void they must be feeling deep inside! 

      It just happens to be another very powerful defense mechanism, I am guessing. Another question would be “if your heart is not in it, why did you pick this particular profession in the first place”?  No offence intended! Kind regards to your editors.

    • Hanzel says:

      10:37am | 02/02/12

      Really, universities should focus on the arts and law . Science is not complicated and could be taught at Tafe alongside plumbing, building, hairdressing, etc. saving the tax payers millions of dollars.

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      11:38am | 02/02/12

      ” Science is not complicated “

      Troll, or incredibly stupid.  Hmm….

    • bored with latent maturing gen x kids who know it says:

      10:38am | 02/02/12

      Confuscianist leaning advice as opposed to daoism.., either way his mugshot shows his age group and life perspective.
      Is he a cross cultured bogan with a brain or a bogan with an intellectual elitist approach. Well who can tell, being the offspring of the war child parent everything must be black and white, of course in his short life he knows it all!
      Hitler style mo.mhhh! ..oh well, life will teach “it” better not to mouth off.
      Dont forget the body heals when the attitude,mind and hope are positive, .

    • Kika says:

      10:54am | 02/02/12

      “Dont forget the body heals when the attitude,mind and hope are positive”

      Absolutely. Often hope is all it takes to get better. My husband is recovering from a post concussion and all the doctors really cared about was his immediate symptoms. When he appeared to be out of the danger zone they let him go home with not a lot of information about what he should or shouldn’t do to get better. No doctors can tell us when he should expect to full 100% but woffly sort of things like “we will see in 6 months”

      The anxiety and depression have been the worst aspects of it all. I’ve been trying my best for him to feel hopeful and at peace with everything and as much as modern medicine really can’t do much for him (nor seems to care) it’s things like meditation and yoga that are helping him FEEL like he’s improving.

      So if people want to get homeopathy to FEEL like they are getting better, why not. It’s when the quacks prevent their patients from seeking real medical attention is when things become dangerous. VERY dangerous.

    • Richard says:

      11:09am | 02/02/12

      This is exactly right, his comments read like they’ve been lifted from this website: http://www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_91-96/943_tao.html “Taoist Perversion of 20th Century Science” haha. Its a rant.

      Thing is, magic is just a term given by primitive people to genuine phenomena that they can’t understand.

      In time, knowledge will advance, and things like Homoeopathy will be understood in a scientific paradigm. Indeed, already the work of Emoto is helping to give us insights into the vibrational properties of water:

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      11:59am | 02/02/12

      “Thing is, magic is just a term given by primitive people to genuine phenomena that they can’t understand.”

      No it’s f-ing not!  If you’re going to talk about woo and crap as though it’s real,  at least understand what you’re talking about.

      Sympathetic magic has real effects does it?  Do I get smarter by eating another humans brains that I kill?  No, of course I bloody well don’t.  I’ll be lucky if my brain doesn’t start to break down due to defective proteins messing things up!

      How about tarot cards?  Crystal healing?  Auras?  None of this stuff has any measurable effects.  You know what else has no measurable effects?  Things that don’t exist.  You know what you don’t do?  Invent crap that can’t be disproven and then endanger peoples lives with it.

      “No doctors can tell us when he should expect to full 100% but woffly sort of things like “we will see in 6 months””

      Umm…admitting you don’t know is usually the most intelligent answer one can give.  Would you rather they made something up to make you feel better? 

      “things like Homoeopathy will be understood in a scientific paradigm”

      It’s understood.  It doesn’t work.  Period.  End of story.  There’s nothing missing in the picture here.  As for Emoto…please.  He’s never produced anything repeatable, sensible and he makes $35 selling 8 ounce bottles of water.  And you think scientists are the frauds…*shakes head*

    • Kika says:

      01:30pm | 02/02/12

      Tim - I agree with you. Most of the time it is a placebo. But if you can trick someone’s mind into thinking they are doing something positive for their situation and to bring them hope often it works better than a doctor saying “We have no idea..”

      Like with my husband’s concussion, the doctors can’t see if and when he will regain everything he had prior to the concussion. Now to my husband, who had a lot of hopes and ambitions to achieve this year, everything is out of the window and he was quickly sliding into a depression because of not knowing if he will ever get better. Yes, the doctors were right. You don’t know with PCS whether someone will have permanent damage or not.  To some people this will be ok to deal with. Others not.

      Since he’s been doing physio, practicing yoga and meditation and doing small things like even just using a sinus spray he has tricked his brain into thinking that he’s bettering himself and his depression has eased and he is genuinely getting better. He’s doing more hours at work and his spirits are back up.

      Stress can do ridiculous things with the body. The mind is more powerful than people give it credit.  So if someone goes to a alternative science provider for that little glimmer of hope, and it works, what’s wrong with that?

      IF however the quack is preventing that person from seeking REAL medical help and promising to cure everything that is wrong with that person then you’ve got a situation.

    • subotic says:

      01:32pm | 02/02/12

      “Dont forget the body heals when the attitude, mind and hope are positive”

      WTF? You bastards are all on drugs.

      Or not on drugs, more like it….

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      01:51pm | 02/02/12

      “So if someone goes to a alternative science provider for that little glimmer of hope, and it works, what’s wrong with that?”

      Well, in your situation, it’s not a problem.  But people often take both, but attribute the recovery to the “alternative medicine” for a variety of reasons.  Then next time, they start the alternative medicine from the start along with conventional.  And then next time they take just the alternative.  Or worse, give their kid the alternative…and if it doesn’t end tragically (or something, even if it does, depending on how much they’ve emotionally invested in the woo), they’ll start telling others about how they recovered from disease X thanks to <insert woo here> while conveniently leaving out the conventional medicine they were taking.

      In short…tolerating a lack of critical thinking can end up costing lives, often innocent ones without a say in the matter.

      I would rather the medical profession develops a parallel system that addresses the emotional needs of people without the dangerous side effects that alternative medicine creates.

    • Kika says:

      03:14pm | 02/02/12

      The problem is the system doesn’t have the time or resources to give people the compassion and care that they feel they need. Even in a hospital with thousands of people running around you can feel incredibly lonely and forgotten. You’re sitting there trying not to die from boredom and even when the old lady across from you has her drip machine beeping non stop telling everyone that the battery is running out nobody hears it…

      Even when my husband was being discharged the neurosurgeon didn’t even have time to discuss post care and the reason why he needed 6 weeks from work and we had to sit there and wait for a medical certificate and a script for pain killers while he had to run off to see his next patient.

      People hate to feel out of control as well. When you believe YOU are doing positive things you get that little bit of hope back. So by going to an alternative medicine ‘clinic’ people probably feel like they are taking back a bit more control over their situation.

      I agree, when those same people take it to the extreme and don’t take their kids to see real doctors when they need it or don’t vaccinate them that’s when things get dangerously bad and I absolutely agree the whole alternative medicine industry needs more scutiny and control over the rubbish they are selling people.

    • Chris Richardson says:

      03:49pm | 02/02/12

      “alternative science provider”

      there it is

      in a nutshell

    • Kika says:

      10:46am | 02/02/12

      Whilst I agree whole heartedly with the issues around ‘natural’ medicine I disagree in the part that these courses should be banned from universities. I would rather think that the people interested in these courses should receive the highest level of education they can get in their fields before they start treating people. And let’s face it, if you can study a degree in pop music what’s stopping universities offering courses in natural medicine?

    • Shane* says:

      10:47am | 02/02/12

      “We’ve groped for comfort before the slings and arrows of fortune for millennia, and I begrudge nobody their source of solace.

      But science provides tools.

      $100billion a year in scientific studies and medical R&D has bought us some pretty damn powerful slings and arrows of our own.

      The world is amazing, and I’m going to live to experience more of it thanks to people who refused to gracefully accept the ineffability of reality.

      I find my courage where I can, but I take my weapons from science.

      Because they work, bitches!”

      —xkcd

    • Stone age liberal says:

      03:31pm | 02/02/12

      analysis of XKCD cartoons would be a more beneficial uni course than homoeopathy

    • The Black Poloneck says:

      11:01am | 02/02/12

      ..because what students learn at uni, for most, doesn’t really matter.

    • Aussie Wazza says:

      11:10am | 02/02/12

      Last month I had a drink in Brisbane and later a pee in Singapore.

      Like to see those monecules remember their way home.

    • kitteh says:

      11:11am | 02/02/12

      I am a scientist (I have a Ph.D and a track record in research) - also quite a junior one - as well. I actually think we should include alternative medicine in the curriculum. That way we can outline the stringent research and years of clinical obersvations that have effectively debunked so much alternative ‘medicine’. If a med practitioner has this information, they can pass it on to their patients. A lot of the mythology around alternative medicine arises from a lack of understanding of the research process. This makes the public vulnerable to the unsubstantiated claims of many alt-heath ‘practitioners’ - they don’t know what questions to ask regarding qualifications, peer review, double-blinded trials, etc. And as they say, knowledge is power.

      It’s also worth remembering that some alternative treatments do prove to be valuable and are eventually absorbed into the arsenal. However, this inevitably comes after thorough testing and further development by qualified and experienced specialists. Artemisinin, which is a widely used treatment for certain types of malaria, was originally used in traditional Chinese medicine. However, the drug was the only effective treatment found among literally thousands of traditional therapies for malaria tested, and in order for the drug to be clinically useful, a synthetic derivative had to be made.

      Where there is real potential, backed up by data - and the plural of anecdote is not data - scientists are willing to examine alternative medicines. But they must pass the same tests as other medicines. Alt-medicine practitioners often accuse scientists of dismissing their obersvations. In a perfect world, we would chase up every possibility. However, funding is extremely limited for medical research, and the cost of getting a new drug to market is sky-high - because the safety of the public needs to be paramount. There are plenty of documented cases of people suffering from lead toxicity, digitalis poisoning and other horrors after taking unregulated alternative medicines provided by unreputable alt-med practitioners.

      So with such limited funding, there needs to be a kind of ‘triage’ regarding what we put to the test. A ‘treatment’ like homeopathy -  which I agree ignores the fundamentals of physics - ends up further down the list for good reason. If the public want more research into medicine - all medicine - they need to fund it. And before anyone claims otherwise, no, there is not nearly enough funding already, especially with our ever-increasing population and lifespan. Scientists are probably the worst-paid professionals in the country; PhD-qualified individuals on $50 000 a year are not unheard of. Many people reluctantly leave the field or go overseas to try to earn enough to pay off their uni fees. If the public don’t want their health left up to snake-oil salesmen, they need to take this seriously.

    • AdamC says:

      12:22pm | 02/02/12

      Kitteh, this was a very useful comment. What I don’t understand about alternative health advocates is, if they are so certain about their treatments’ efficacy, why not submit them to proper testing and actually demonstrate their efficacy? It’s not like there isn’t already lots of money in alternative therapies, imagine how much there would be if it could be demonstrated that they actually work!

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      12:25pm | 02/02/12

      Excellent post.

    • JamesH says:

      11:25am | 02/02/12

      Look at the wording of this very article.  They “believe” we “think”.  Both are theories, one is viewed as virtual canon and the other as snake oil.  The scientific community can’t agree on anything and the alternative practitioners won’t accept that the effectiveness of their treatments is a combination of very small measuarable results (almost negligible) and the placebo effect.  I fail to see how the author is any different from those he criticises.

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      12:01pm | 02/02/12

      “The scientific community can’t agree”

      Yes, they can.  When they can’t, they propose a testable hypothesis to disprove the variations until (hopefully), one is left.  It’s not even close to the same and saying it is, is intellectually lazy or deliberately misleading.

    • marley says:

      12:36pm | 02/02/12

      The author has an idea, develops an experiment or test of his idea, and examines the results.  If his idea seems to be confirmed, he does more experiments or tests.  Other people repeat his experiments or tests.  If they all agree, and there are no tests the results of which differ,then the scientific community will indeed agree.  The guys that identified h. pylori as the cause of ulcers tested their hypothesis extensively; so did other scientists world wide.  And their tests all came to the same conclusion.  Ulcers are caused by bacteria, not stress.  The scientific community is in agreement.

      The day that homeopathy or most of the other alternate medical fields subject themselves to that kind of rigorous testing and retesting and establish their efficacy, will be the day they’ll have credibility.  Not before.

    • Chris says:

      12:37pm | 02/02/12

      T the T,

      You seem to have an idealistic view of the scientific community and its approach to decision making.

      Occasionally what you are suggesting is what occurs, but I don’t think it is always.

      I propose that the “scientists” engage in as much childish bickering as the rest of us.  There is a hypothesis for you - how do you suggest we test it in a double-blind, random controlled trial?

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      01:39pm | 02/02/12

      I try and take the long view Chris…evidence (generally) sorts itself out eventually, irrespective of short term egotistical bickering (which I’m under no illusion of the prevalence of).

    • Greypower says:

      11:36am | 02/02/12

      Acupuncture has no scientific base, yet is accepted by the medical profession.

      Homeopathy works on animals!

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      12:03pm | 02/02/12

      Pigs can solve algebraic equations!

      See?  I can yell nonsense too!

    • marley says:

      12:31pm | 02/02/12

      Acupuncture isn’t accepted by the medical profession.  It’s been subjected to a great may trials, most of which have established that it has a placebo effect and nothing more.  There is plenty of opposition within the scientific medical community to including acupuncture in university-level courses.

    • Richard says:

      01:54pm | 02/02/12

      Not true marley, the latest review of acupuncture research shows that, not only does it have an effect greater than placebo, the physiological effect of acupuncture is objectively measurable: http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/acupuncture/healthprofessional/Page5

      “Four randomized controlled trials,[1,2,4,5] a nonrandomized clinical study,[3] and two case series [6,7] found that acupuncture enhanced or regulated immune function.

      The first randomized controlled trial found that acupuncture treatment enhanced platelet count and prevented leukocyte decrease after radiation therapy or chemotherapy, in comparison with the control group.[1]

      A second study involved a group of 40 postoperative cancer patients, 20 of whom received daily acupuncture treatment and 20 of whom served as a control group. After 3 days, leukocyte phagocytosis was enhanced in the treated group, compared with the baseline measurement (P < .01); no such enhancement was observed in the control group.[2]

      A third study observed the effect of acupuncture on interleukin-2 (IL-2) and natural killer (NK) cell activity in the peripheral blood of patients with malignant tumors. The patients were divided into an acupuncture treatment group (n = 25), which received 30 minutes of acupuncture daily for 10 days, and a nonacupuncture control group (n = 20). The data showed that IL-2 level and NK cell activity were significantly increased in the acupuncture group, compared with the control group (P < .01).[4]

      A fourth study observed the effect of acupuncture on T-lymphocyte subsets (CD3+, CD4+, and CD8+), soluble IL-2 receptor (SIL-2R), and beta-endorphin (beta-EP) in the peripheral blood of patients with malignant tumors. The data showed that acupuncture treatment increased the proportion of the CD3+ and CD4+ T-lymphocyte subsets, the CD4+/CD8+ ratio (P < .01), and the level of beta-EP. It decreased the level of SIL-2R (P < .01). The investigators suggested that the anticancer effect of acupuncture may be mediated via the mechanism of immunomodulation. [5]

      The nonrandomized clinical study showed that microwave acupuncture (MAT), a newly developed technique in which a specially designed device attached to a normally inserted acupuncture needle is used to deliver microwave radiation to a given point, enhanced the immunologic function of cancer patients. Although there was an increase in white blood cell count in the MAT group, the change was not significantly different from that seen in the control group under drug treatment.[3]

      In a clinical case series, 28 cancer patients who were treated with electroacupuncture (EA) while undergoing chemotherapy experienced no declines in T cells (CD3+, CD4+, CD8+) or in NK cell activity, both of which are usually suppressed by chemotherapy.[7] Similar findings were reported in a study comparing EA to the control in patients receiving chemotherapy for breast, colorectal cancer, and non-Hodgkin lymphoma.[8]

      In another clinical case series, 48 patients with leukopenia —including two cancer patients—who were treated with manual acupuncture experienced improvements in leukocyte count, intracutaneous phytohemagglutinin (PHA), and immunoglobulin (IgG, IgA, and IgM) levels after 14 daily acupuncture treatments, compared with their pretreatment levels.[6]”

    • Horse says:

      02:11pm | 02/02/12

      There no proof that homeopathy works on animals! none!

    • Space Ghost says:

      03:33pm | 02/02/12

      You left out the important bit from your cut and paste Richard.

      “At least seven human studies have evaluated the effect of acupuncture on immune system function in patients with cancer.[1-7] These studies were all conducted in China.

      http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/puncturing-the-acupuncture-myth/

      The biggest problem with acupuncture studies is finding an adequate placebo control. You’re sticking needles in people. People notice that. Double blinding is impossible: you might be able to fool patients into thinking you’ve used a needle when you haven’t, but there’s no way to blind the person doing the needling. Two kinds of controls have been used: comparing acupuncture points to non-points, and using an ingenious needle in a sheath that appears to have penetrated the skin when it hasn’t.

      In George Ulett’s research, he found that applying an electrical current to the skin of the wrist – a kind of TENS (transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation) treatment – worked just as well as inserting needles, and one point on the wrist worked for symptoms anywhere in the body.

      Guess what? It doesn’t matter where you put the needle. It doesn’t matter whether you use a needle at all. In the best controlled studies, only one thing mattered: whether the patients believed they were getting acupuncture. “

      It’s placebo. A useful phenomena but not much good when treating serious illness, except of course if you’re making money from selling bullshit.

    • Richard says:

      04:05pm | 02/02/12

      Space Ghost, are you implying somehow that research conducted in China is “inferior” to Western research? That actually sounds a bit racist. In fact, China is the most appropriate place to conduct such research, because the efficacy of acupuncture depends entirely upon the skill of the practitioner, and I know from personal experience that practitioners in China are more likely to possess a higher degree of skill than many Western practitioners (though by no means all… this is a very broad generalisation I’m making).

      And regarding your quote from one of the random quack-busting sites that are around, it doesn’t really have a point. Acupuncture isn’t and never was about the needles themselves per se. The needle is just one tool out of many, of which any or all may be used. So some practitioners use needles, some use rice grain moxa, some use TENS treatment, some use massage, the technique is not important. Its the skill with which the practitioner applies the technique that is important.

      Therefore Space Ghost, we know that the effect of acupuncture can’t be mere placebo, because the objective blood tests conducted in the studies I referred to in my first post prove absolutely a powerful physiological effect beyond the patient merely “thinking that they’re better but not really being better”.

    • marley says:

      06:09pm | 02/02/12

      @Richard - perhaps you didn’t read the link closely enough:  “Although most of these studies were positive and demonstrated the effectiveness of acupuncture in cancer pain control, the findings have limited significance because of methodologic weaknesses such as small sample sizes, an absence of patient blinding to treatment in most cases, varying acupuncture treatment regimens, a lack of standard outcome measurements, and an absence of adequate randomization.”

      In other words, the case for acupuncture is not proven and it isn’t ready to be included as an actual degree.

      And, since you like quotes, here’s another one:

      “Acupuncture has been the subject of many clinical studies and has been tested as treatment for a wide range of conditions. At this time, there is sound scientific support for acupuncture for 2 conditions: nausea/vomiting and headaches.”

      That’s from the American Cancer Society.

    • Space Ghost says:

      10:10am | 03/02/12

      “Space Ghost, are you implying somehow that research conducted in China is “inferior” to Western research? “

      I’m not somehow implying it. I’m stating it out right. A study in a country that has a major investment in selling acupuncture, without adequate sample size and without an appropriate method for double blinding is to be taken with a very large grain of salt until verified by much larger, more independent and better controlled studies.

      “That actually sounds a bit racist.”

      And there we go Richard can’t win an argument on logic so he resorts to belligerence to defend his woo woo and snake oil. Well I can play that way too.

      “ In fact, China is the most appropriate place to conduct such research, because the efficacy of acupuncture depends entirely upon the skill of the practitioner, and I know from personal experience that practitioners in China are more likely to possess a higher degree of skill than many Western practitioners (though by no means all… this is a very broad generalisation I’m making).”

      If Acupuncture is a repeatable and measurable phenomena then it should be the case that two professionals with the same amount of training regardless of their country of origin should be able to produce similar results. Of course Acupuncture is bullshit like other woo woo such as feng shui and no two “professionals” can agree on just how it’s done or how it works. Funny that.

      “And regarding your quote from one of the random quack-busting sites that are around, it doesn’t really have a point. Acupuncture isn’t and never was about the needles themselves per se. The needle is just one tool out of many, of which any or all may be used.”

      Ignoring the point doesn’t make it go away Richard. Whether this hock um is conducted through needles or by other fantastical means the patient has to know that they’ve been treated, making it very difficult to double blind any stuff. Get enough suggestible believers and you get the result you want. Which suits the pushers of snake oil just fine.


      “Therefore Space Ghost, we know that the effect of acupuncture can’t be mere placebo, because the objective blood tests conducted in the studies I referred to in my first post prove absolutely a powerful physiological effect beyond the patient merely “thinking that they’re better but not really being better”.”

      The don’t prove any such thing until such studies are conducted on a large scale, independently and with proper double blind controlled.

      All the do is give flakes something to point to and pretend that science supports them bunkum.

    • David says:

      12:07pm | 02/02/12

      There is no doubt about it   BULLSHIT BAFFLES BRAINS !!!!!
      Snake oil medicine still prevails and where there is a quid to be made out of the ‘’ worried well ‘’ and the poorly educated in physiology and basic health and disease processes , this process will continue . Also the basic hatred of medicos
      for strange reasons will persist .
      The only solution to the problem is to educate the children in basic anatomy , physiology in health and disease and imbibe in them a positive attitude to things that can alter the bodies reaction to disease .
      THIS CAN START IN PRESCHOOL WITH A WELL STRUCTURED EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMME !!!!!

    • Enigma says:

      12:31pm | 02/02/12

      Universities only teach what you cannot find out from work,  from the mass media, school , from the pub, from the church,from the club, from the major political parties, from sport,  and from TAFE College Education .
      in other words, Universities teach everything to everyone at any time !

    • Elphaba says:

      12:45pm | 02/02/12

      If people want to turn their back on conventional medice, that’s fine with me.  The medical profession, much like any other system, has flaws because humans are in charge.  I happen to have an excellent GP, so I won’t be prescribing myself natural therapies beyond a good diet and plenty of exercise any time soon.

      I do enjoy yoga though.  Very relaxing.  I don’t use it as a cure-all, but it’s a great-destresser.  And it has been proven to significantly lower blood-pressure - because it wasn’t afraid to be investigated.

      With regard to homeopathic remedies being held up against a scientific barometer, absolutely. Unfortunately, the industry closes ranks every time such a thing is suggested, and if a study is done, it is rubbished ad nauseum by practitioners.

      If a consenting adult want to do it, fine.  But I would like to see homeopaths only being allowed to treat people above the age of 18.  Prior to that, as a parent, you should take your child to a proper doctor.  Anyone ‘naturally’ vaccinating their kids or trying to treat illnesses with herbs, shouldn’t be blessed with children in the first place.

    • Elphaba says:

      02:04pm | 02/02/12

      @Mik, I know after sitting in an office chair all day, 45 mins of yoga when I get home makes my back feel awesome. smile

    • neo says:

      02:47pm | 02/02/12

      Treating people with herbs is a bit better than treating them with the synthetic versions of those herbs, IMHO, don’t you agree? Naturopathy is accepted as real medicine, modern pharmacy came from naturopathy! An intelligent person should seek treatment from both conventional medicine and naturopathy, usually complimenting the two (of course as long as the cures don’t clash), or sometimes supplementing as much as they can for naturopathy. If you have a serious medical condition, of course you will need conventional medical help, and a good doctor will prescribe you chemical medicine as well as herbal medicine. But if it’s a minor thing like a cold, it’s best to avoid those paracetamol laden pills that are so popular and stick to drinking herbal teas, eating garlic etc etc. Hardcore pharmaceutical products should be the last resort, only use them if you need to, not for every minor thing.

      Homeopathy is not about the herbs, it’s about conditioning your body to fight symptoms caused by diseases by simulating those symptoms with highly diluted medicines, herbs, whatever.

    • Elphaba says:

      03:07pm | 02/02/12

      @neo, no.  I disagree with most things you say, and this is just another one.

      I don’t believe I suggested that you go running to the doctor’s every time you have a sniffle.  I suggested that people who ‘naturally’ vaccinate their child with overpriced oils and water are irresponsible parents.  Parents taking their children to a naturopath should be immediately turned away until the child is of consenting age.  Mix enough herbal treatments together and they are just as toxic as a synthetic medicine.  The scary thing is, it’s much less regulated.

      Like I said - hold all these up to the same level of testing as drugs currently under TGA review, and we will see what’s what.  But until then, numbnuts on the internet recommending colloidal silver (one example) are just that - numbnuts.

      You have a lot of fruity ideas, neo.  At least you’re consistent.

    • neo says:

      03:19pm | 02/02/12

      You disagree with what exactly? That illnesses have been successfully treated with herbs for aeons and will continue to be, in both children and adults? That modern pharmacology originated from naturopathy? That you should avoid pumping yourself full of chemicals when it can be avoided? Any good doctor would agree with me. Which of these ideas is “fruity”?

      You disagree with me out of principle, but you can’t disagree with what I’ve said.

    • Elphaba says:

      03:36pm | 02/02/12

      @neo, ok, what illnesses do you treat with herbs that make you feel better?

      I find a cold will not go away any faster using either garlic or a commercial over-the-counter medicine.  Any perceived ‘increased healing rate’ is due to the placebo effect.  Which I believe does go a long way to helping people feel better.  But it’s not the herbs doing it.

      Christ, if garlic cures a cold, then by definition I should never get one.  Didn’t stop me picking one up a couple of weeks ago…

    • marley says:

      06:02pm | 02/02/12

      Ok - first of all, naturopathy and homeopathy are two different things.  The former involves herbs, the latter includes non-herbal “remedies.”

      Herbal medicine has a history, good in its time, but not especially distinguished since we started to apply scientific methods to determining which herbs worked, and why, and sorting out the good from the placebos. 

      Homeopathy has no respectable history at all - it works when hydration is the treatment, but otherwise it doesn’t. 

      Both should be subject to exactly the same checks that mainstream medicine is - testing and retesting, blind testing and so on.  The bits of herbal medicine that are sound will survive, the dross should be dumped.

    • neo says:

      10:42am | 03/02/12

      Any respiratory condition will be made much better with garlic, true story. Of course your immune system will not be made 100% illness proof by it, but trust, it will help. Any doctor with half a brain knows this and will tell you so.

      Chamomile is also great for colds and stuff, as well as stomach upsets (especially if you drink it as a herbal tea), and I’ve heard of people using it for swelling and anti bacterial purposes.

      Milk thistle is a wonderful herb for your liver, any liver centric illness will be made better by it, possibly useful for other types of conditions as well.

      Guarana improved cognitive function, so does the coffee bean.

      Extract from the poppy plant buds is a powerful anesthetic, you may have heard of it’s purified version that is used in hospitals world wide - morphine.

      That’s just some of the popular uses of herbs anyway.

    • cb says:

      12:56pm | 02/02/12

      off topic slightly but anyhoo, where is the data/evidence that man made CO2 is responsible for climate change, if that even exists? there has been plenty of hyperbole but bugger all actual info.
      additionally, where’s the data demonstrating that any change to man’s CO2 emissions will mitigate climate change?
      that’s dangerous pseudo science…

    • Mik says:

      01:21pm | 02/02/12

      Science is never static. Science is adaptable (or it becomes dogma) as newer research often requires modification, or complete rejection, of older research/practices.

    • avoid the void says:

      01:27pm | 02/02/12

      Why do universities teach “shonky magic” ?
      Tories only believe in “Shonky Magic” as their logic.
      Their minds are null and void !

    • Heroditus says:

      02:15pm | 02/02/12

      I agree wholly with Mr Heathers. Science is not based on opinion, a gut feeling, the hairs on the back of the neck, a tarot card reading, spiritualism, crystal balls, smoke signals, cloud formations, flying saucers, astrology, and other paraphenalia, but the proof of measurement,  mathematics, in whatever form. Because Cyril pulled the wings off a fly and ordered it to feed on his brocolli at the dinner table, doesn’t mean it’s deaf, or that they have auditory function. Do snakes have oil?  Well, ask any snake oil salesman, he will tell you what you want to hear; and it does have enormous benefits, possibly your introduction to successful deceptive selling, and therefore proven to be beneficial. What’s not proven by scientific method on the other hand, is that 50% of Australians are asleep, 30% have left this country, and 20% remain to educate the other 50%. Have a nice day.

    • Sophie says:

      02:25pm | 02/02/12

      You, James Heathers, are a hero. THANK YOU for standing up for logic, reason, and science. This article and the organisation you support is inspiring to me. At Macquarie University it annoys me everyday that “Chiropratic Science” is taught in the Science Department. Good Luck.

    • wilma says:

      02:57pm | 02/02/12

      The British Chiroprators could not stand up in court and defend themselves against the same charges made by the British medical fraternity.

    • Stuart says:

      03:19pm | 02/02/12

      Shonkes,tricksters,fraudsters are out there everywhere,even in your shopping centre.How mant times have you bought a product that was advertised that didn’t look like the advertised photo.A good example is these hamburger chains that have posters of a large juicy looking product above your head,but when you get it it is usually less than half it’s height,with less filling and not so juicy and appealing.

    • rod sexton says:

      03:29pm | 02/02/12

      Maybe some institutions should not be called a ‘University’. The rebranding of TAFE colleges as universities has lowered the prestige of many degree courses.

    • Dr subotic says:

      03:55pm | 02/02/12

      Originally, homeopathy was the “science” of the day.
      Now it’s all a crock of shit.

      Then witchcraft and voodoo became the new “science” of the day.
      And it’s still today’s so-called “science” and “medicine”.

      But if you ask me, both are still a crock of shit.

      Science has failed.
      Homeopathy has failed.
      Religion has failed.

      But beer, beer has NEVER failed me yet.

      Just sayin….

    • marley says:

      05:54pm | 02/02/12

      @primary school subotic - homeopathy was NEVER the science of the day.  Beer isn’t either, but what the hell.  It gives you more than $30 of homeopathic solutions will ever do.

    • Graeme Hanigan says:

      04:00pm | 02/02/12

      If the slack jawed academics, running some of our University departments, cannot tell the difference between efficacy and the placebo effect then we are in real trouble as a civilisation!

      What’s next a Masters Degree in Water Divining or Flat Earth Navigation?

      However I suspect the real reason that Universities are offering courses in sham medicine is the same reason that pharmacies sell ear candles, for the easy money to be made from an ill informed populace.

    • James Heathers says:

      04:26pm | 02/02/12

      Hello to everyone who has commented positively so far, thank you for your support. I appreciate it.

      (Hello also to those of you who think I am a proto-fascist dupe in a vast and shadowy conspiracy. I love your creativity.)

      There is obviously too much here to address, so I’ll confine myself to saying one thing.

      A lot of people read an article like mine above and fall back to a response of “look, alternative medicine helps people, makes them happy and doesn’t hurt anyone”.

      This is true sometimes, but certainly not always. And when it’s not true, there are extremely weighty consequences. Example:

      A few years ago, an NCCAM-funded trial into pancreatic cancer survival offered sufferers a choice of either regular chemotherapy drugs, or - and I’m not exaggerating here - a regime called the Gonzales Protocol, which consists of a special diet, supplementary enzymes and coffee enemas.

      Now, as this was a self-selected trial, we can’t be sure whether or not people with a worse prognosis were more likely to choose the Gonzalez stuff, or the groups were similar.

      But the chemotherapy group survived, on average, three times longer.

      Something like this is an ethical minefield - as these people were already terminally ill (pancreatic cancer is essentially untreatable), were they denied ‘proper treatment’ on the basis of the best information available?  A hard question I won’t try to answer.

      But I wonder, though: how many people who have pancreatic cancer now would choose the Gonzalez Protocol, given the results?

      So, be careful with those statements about “how can it possibly do damage?” - it’s very possible. We risk playing with people’s lives when we test alternative medicines in clinical trials.

      You can read the report on the study in the Journal of Clinical Oncology here: http://jco.ascopubs.org/content/28/12/2058.full

      As always, I welcome your (civil, non-hysterical and properly spelled) emails .

      JH

    • Trav_UQ says:

      04:51pm | 02/02/12

      You are under the impression that universities are there to teach people. They are solely there to make money (ie give the people what they want) These are one of the few successful businesses that survive hard economic times. I’ve been lecturing some time now and it is nothing short of a joke.

    • youdy beaudy says:

      07:35pm | 02/02/12

      I get sick of all the bullshit doctors and academics who think they know everything, putting down natural medicine. The Doctors are like the Liberal Party, think they are born to rule, poor things.

      Academics and Doctors know only a very small amount about the healing that can come from the plant kingdom, the manipulation of muscles and the esoteric. They are trying, and have been successful to a certain extent of creating policies to destroy and take over the natural medicine field and with no knowledge whatsoever. What’s the story with that false pretense. Unless you are trained in it you don’t know, that’s the truth.!

      Did people know that while running down natural therapies the pharma companies have been very busy buying them up because their drugs are not working to eliminate disease. They know that the cure for cancer is in the field of herbalism but if they have the cure they will not release it because their so called Medical Industry will become less supported. Doctors and scientists will have no employment if they find a cure for disease. What generally doctoring is about is a good income but to think that they care who dies or not is a furphy.

      Doctors who embrace Natural Methods will have the patients of the future the doubters will become extinct.

      A piece of paper makes you something but unless you have the knowledge it is only of value academically. This is because knowledge is constantly changing. Sorry doubters, but there are cures going on all the time in natural medicine or at least management of a problem. Yes there are happenings coming out of natural medicine that defy normal thinking, so called scientific thinking or application. No, doctors don’t have all the answers. There is, whether people agree or not, whether they believe or not, magic in our world. But people are frightened of magic. It’s that old religious brainwashing and fear working there.

      The Doctors will steal everything to keep themselves on top. Their denial re the healing powers of things natural only make themselves look to the natural people as idiots. Natural therapists are sick of Doctors putting themselves up as the only ones who know anything and also controlling everything. They are so frightened of anything that is not linear in thought and application. Where as lateral thinkers know many ways of healing disease not taught in the medical books or universities. Many are handed down though culture and families from Grandfathers, Grandmothers and local sharmans.

      To be fair one must write that there are Doctors out there now that are including or recommending some bona fide therapies to their patients like the TV doctor in the states known as Dr OZ. Now he is more open. He is worth listening to. A credit to the field of medicine, with open forum helping people to understand how the human body works and what is alternate that can help. The problem is that people are too impatient and want a cure instantly and that’s why they flock to the Allopathic. Natural Medicine takes longer because it is natural not artificially created out of pharma labs who have formulated the exact properties of plants and some have stolen herbal knowledge from indigenous people and sharmans and then claimed that they discovered it.

      I should imagine that many doctors and people who write against Natural medicines have a belief in a god and miracles. If they have that belief then they just stuff their argument ,because God is not scientifically proven. If they have total conviction that the system that involves Herbal, acupuncture, remedial massage, physical adjustment and bone work is rubbish then i would advise them to give up religion. Because friends some so called religions are exactly that, a load of rubbish and lies. Enjoy!!

    • AnthonyG says:

      05:49am | 03/02/12

      very well said. you nailed it

    • Servaas says:

      07:50pm | 02/02/12

      My first thought was also that it is because medicine, like so many other things have become an industry focussed on the bottom line. As the West is turning away from its traditional rational worldview and Biblical thinking is replaced with that of Eastern and other mystic beliefs (everyone’s doing yoga and watching Oprah) the market demands these methods more and more.

      Nevertheless, all alternative thoeries should be investigated.

      A stand against the monopoly that the evolution theory has in science departments of universities should also be made. I believe we will see it soon. It’s also money related this whole thing - flowing with trends of the time.

    • Chris says:

      08:32pm | 02/02/12

      I haven’t read the hundreds of posts, but I would just make this point: universities have traditionally offered a wide range of utterly unscientific courses, usually under the banner of “Liberal Studies” or such. These have included all literature and Arts courses, music, economics and the other “social sciences”. Would we want a world without higher learning in these pursuits?
      No? Then let the magicians have their courses, too. (Theologians, after all, have to put food on the table).
      Sure, quarantine them from the real sciences, but live and let live. Even if you decry the rigour or veracity of such fields, you’d have to admit that they do have many adherents and might not be a total crock after all.

    • TracyS says:

      02:00pm | 05/02/12

      ...but these coursed should not be run within a health SCIENCES faculty if they are not based on good science…

    • AnthonyG says:

      08:59pm | 02/02/12

      What about the so called scientists that have told us we wont get above average rain falls ever again if we don’t do some thing about reducing carbon dioxide hahahahahahaha they should take up comedy. An istead of bagging the Homeopaths why don’t you do some reserch and ask some of the people who’s lives have been saved or greatly improved by Homeopathy like myself and plenty of people I know. We know that the general practitioner or noall scientist will never accept that these people can cure people far far quicker than general pacts or so called specialist with only a fraction of the education the doctors have had and without making people believe that they need copious amounts of drugs just to mask a symptom

    • Sciency Guy says:

      08:59pm | 02/02/12

      I have come to realise that ‘complementary’ and ‘alternative’ medicine are probably kind of tolerated because they are the placebos that doctors cannot prescribe themselves. To explain: the placebo effect is a real effect. Proven treatments can actually work better when given in a culturally relevant context. Placebos work on the cooperation of the subject are not really counted in scientifically sound studies because the effectiveness of the treatment has to be verified independently of the effect of the belief in the treatment. Some placebos can produce amazing and real results. We don’t really understand the basis of many of the results, but they do exist and this power can be harnessed, drug companies already do this with their pill colourings ( see Bad Science by Ben Goldacre). Complementary medicine is a placebo. That’s why it sometimes works amazingly for people who do believe in magic, but should not be prescribed by scientific medicine because it cannot be relied upon. We cannot ban it, because I very much believe that it would become much more dangerous if it was not properly regulated.

    • Mark says:

      09:43pm | 02/02/12

      Hello Science Guy,

      Have you checked recently the amount of Scientific research being formally done in just the field of Chiropractic alone? I find it appalling that all complimentary therapies are grouped as one. “Unscientific”???

      Most complimentary therapies do not deal with triage conditions nor attend horrific accidents. I have been permitted to view and understand Arthroscopy surgery, I have taught in Pharmacology and Pathophysiology, Neurology, Human Movement and Biomechanics, Anatomy and Physiology at multiple levels. I have treated Paramedics, Ambulance worker’s, Medical Specialists, General Practitioners, Nurses, Dentists, Podiatrists, to just name a few professionals. I am a Registered chiropractor and Osteopath who also utilises Traditional Chines Acupuncture.
      I treat regularly, Migraines and Cervicogenic Headaches, Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, Repetitive Strain presentations of many types, Compartment syndromes, Sporting injuries, many Sciatic and Nerve compression presentations ……to name a few.
      I also have a great rapport with many Medical Specialists, G.P.’s, Physiotherapists and part of the greater Complimentary community. I continually update my education requirements, including current Senior First Aid.
      I have a double major in Anatomy and Physiology Bachelor of Science.
      I have had amazing success with patients spanning 28 years, yet, people like you claim Complimentary Medicines work on a placebo effect. I think it is time you developed a scientific, open mind.

    • Sciency Guy says:

      03:43pm | 03/02/12

      Hello Mark,
      The placebo effect is a real effect and is often more powerful than the actual treatment. Yes, I do read the literature. In fact the most trusted reviews of medical literature are done by the Cochrane Collaboration. I’ve looked up a lot of reviews on complemenatary medicine, including chiropractic and acupuncture.  It especially does not look good for acupuncture I must say. When investigated with a properly scientific methodology, the results are not “amazing”. In fact there seems to be very little difference between ‘true’ acupuncture treatments (involving the recognised acupuncture points) and ‘fake’ acupuncture treatments (where the needles are placed ‘incorrectly or not even penetrating the skin).  What does that say about acupuncture ‘theory’?

      I do have an open and scientific mind, which is why I form my opinions from reviews of scientific literature. Unfortunately most of the studies which produce the strongest positive outcomes suffer badly from poor experimental design and are difficult to properly interpret.  Please forgive my skepticism, but I won’t take the word of someone whose livelihood relies on that fact that people believe in what they do. You are not an unbiased observer in this debate.

    • AnthonyG says:

      09:09pm | 02/02/12

      The best thing I ever did was go to a recormended Homeopath!! now if you don’t like them well good on you. I will continue to live feeling great and looking good, you can continue feeling shite , eating plenty of tablets and looking shite

    • Stone age liberal says:

      03:43pm | 03/02/12

      You do know that it is just water don’t you? By their very own admissions it is just water (with an imprint… can’t forget the imprint).

    • seduxen says:

      10:23pm | 02/02/12

      Somebody was saying in the early years of the 20th Century that the patent office can be closed as everything that can be discovered has been discovered… And Micro$oft was understanding that 512kb of memory is more than that you need in computing… Avatars and Pioneers are always way ahead of the curb. And they were always right. There is no consensus in science, talking about climate, or medicine. You can be lazy, coward conformist but if you suppressing alternatives you are a murderer. Murderer of ideas, murderer of opportunities. The Ancient Greek, Roman than later Arabic medicine, surgery trumped the later Christian based medicine. Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for his scientific findings, funnily today the same “scientist” those want to rectify their existence they are the want to burn the new Giordano Bruno’s… Mankind only perfected one thing: tools those killing in the most effective way. Including the independent analytic and critical mind. Today’s medicine is mostly woodoo medicine. Pseudo-scientific mambo jambo. They only treating illnesses not curing. We are presented with all the billion dollar researches those with the only purpose to keep the research team afloat financially. Who wants to kill cardiovascular disease? The heart society? Why they would do that? To send themselves into annihilation? Or the cancer council? They condoning toxic, and deadly treatments over the costless, non-profitable but more affective natural remedies. Who funds them? Big Pharma. Will the dog bite the hand that feeds him? ff course not. I have witnessed several times that Patient who died because the cancer treatment killed him/her - bleeding from every orifices and on the life support for weeks, all organ systems shut down - the oncologist had the temerity to put into the notes: the patient is free of cancer… Too bad, his dead. Nobody can tell me in clear conscience: our medical practice is a success story. Actually far far from it. I would say: they have absolutely no idea!  Publish this if you dare!

    • wilma says:

      06:50am | 03/02/12

      Who are the University personel who determine that tax payer funds are spent on spurious courses? Chiroprators in the UK are being exposed in the UK with the libel against Simon Sing garnering the journalist a large ammount of support via the internet . So why would a university waste money ?

    • Vic says:

      07:15am | 03/02/12

      The courses are there because there is a demand for them. A lot of people are starting to realize that conventional medicine cures nothing in spite of their armory of drugs and skill in surgery. Symptoms are suppressed, but the real cause is ignored.  The best thing to do for your health is go to a doctor to find out what is wrong and then go to complimentary medicine for your treatment. Modern medicine has its basis in the natural world. Most drugs are chemical forms of a natural substance (that is likely to be patented for commercial benefit to the drug company).  There is room for both and the only ones complaining and trying to get rid of the other is conventional medicine.

    • Tim says:

      09:11am | 03/02/12

      James,

      regarding your views on water remembering, please watch “what the bleep do we know”
      Quantum Physics have proven that the molecules in water react to outside stimuli and change their structure. So why is it not possible for homeopathy to work??

    • Cal Crilly says:

      09:29am | 03/02/12

      It’s pretty clear that most drugs and vaccines don’t work so don’t talk yourself up, the effects of most modern medicines don’t go beyond placebo effects.
      They are new and unproven and with side effects that make them barely worth using.
      I know as I’ve read 40,000 studies to see what works.
      The biotech industry is in a precarious position because most of the things they sell have little worth and health departments are falling over paying for expensive medications that don’t work.
      If you get rid of alternative health courses at Universities they will only suffer when the biotech crash comes.

    • marley says:

      12:50pm | 03/02/12

      @Cal Crilly - actually, it’s pretty clear that most vaccines do work, almost all of the time.  I don’t know where you got a notion to the contrary. And if you’ve ever had pneumonia or a nasty infection, you’ll know that antibiotics work as well.

    • kate says:

      02:36pm | 07/02/12

      “I’ve read 40,000 studies”.

      ICB.

      Say you’ve been doing nothing but read “studies” for the last 20 years, say 45 weeks a year, 5 days a week - you’d need to have read 9 studies a day, every working day for 20 years.

      You’re either lying, or if true, you’re clearly bonkers.

      Either way your contribution to the debate is doubtful, to put it mildly,

    • PaxUs says:

      10:27am | 03/02/12

      Surely Alexandria functioned as one of the World’s earliest Universities?  With 30 lecture ‘rooms’ and the World’s largest book/scroll collection, to qualify that description.  It’s a well established fact that Prince Charles is a big homeopathic supporter.  With a Prince in your bag, you can sell any rag.  I’m afraid many are mistaken about what drives modern day universities.  Its money, not science.

    • engineer says:

      12:50pm | 03/02/12

      There are a couple of problems with your article. I spent most of my working life doing research, so while I’m not an academic and my qualifications are in engineering rather than pure science I expect I know something about it.

      1. Science is far from pure. Anyone who’s done any research knows you provide the answer your sponsor wants. It’s easy as cake to twist results to the desired end. Luckily I did research in such an obscure and dull field I never had to make those compromises, but hey! wave some money under my nose and I’ll give you any number you want…:)

      2. Rather than concern yourself with the course content what about university accountability. They offer appauling value for money and quality of education. I have the advantage of having done courses at uni, tech and private providers. Universities are utterly appauling. I was astounfded the whole time at just how bad they are at imparting knowledge. And no I don’t buy the nonesense about student independence and such, that’s just a cop out.

      3. Why stop at magic ? Why not ban fine arts ? or languages. Why are tax payers $ being used to subsidise courses where the graduates have absolutely no hope of finding paid work in the field ? Lets ditch oceanography and marine biology while we’re at it.

      4. The argument is made that hippie medicine has no basis in science because no one is willing to fund the work. Unless the practices your complaining about have been DISPROVEN you probably don’t have a case. There are plenty of untested hypotheses about. Should we stop teaching those ?

      Seriously, don’t you have some thing better to do.

    • PaxUs says:

      01:38pm | 03/02/12

      @engineer - You really didn’t need to detail points 2,3 & 4.  Point 1 says it all.  The magic of money.

    • Gidgee says:

      07:33pm | 03/02/12

      Aah, us mortals, we are just so very clever, aren’t we?

      We can do all sorts of wondrous things like, say, creating an atomic bomb designed, specifically, to kill millions of humanity at the same time as we, so ironically, enable the production of artificial insulin to keep alive people with diabetes thereby ensuring that those same persons will breed - and in the process, create children who’re are insulin dependent too.

      ...to such an awful degree that the number of diabetics in the world, right now in time, is of the order of 15% of the overall western population….but still capable of climbing into the cot and tearing one off, procreating where no such privilege should be logically permitted..

      As to the guts of this debate it has to be said the first learning centres in old Europe were all about religion and religious instruction: about an entrenched galloping spiritual madness which, surprisingly, in the fullness of time, made people think, ponder and question such bizarre dogma, questions which resulted, eventually in many brave souls being burned at the stake, or garrotted, or imprisoned for life but, amazingly, the dogged makeup of mankind and the attendant probing and curiosity prevailed and, lo, nowadays the former pious madcap indulgence-selling papists have reluctantly agreed that, gee, there is a myriad of worlds and suns out there, billions of them, many with attendant planets just like our solar system.

      How about that?

      Ever the accommodating types they of Rome et al have conceded that, hey, their unique interpretation of a monotheist deity made the amazing cosmos, so what’s the question?

      Cunning eh?

      Myths and superstition and religous control - accompanied by deadly redress if one did not comply to such nonsense - has long abounded across this fledgling earth and is, sadly, still very much evident to this very day…

      For instance, the grasping Jewish adherents of that ancient religion have claimed Arab territory explaining to those who may see their conduct as barbaric in the following ultra pious terms “our god gave this land to us” ....and, dear reader, you cannot get more religiously dogmatic than that…as the elastic-sided state of the 1948-created religously inspired land of Israel goes about its deadly encroaching business.

      We of burgeoning mankind are (still) babes in the woods; (still) innocents who have come so far but still dwell in mythology, superstition, exhibit ridiculous trust in an unseen god and a sort of hope that, while all around us are struggling and dying, we will come out on top.

      Perhaps another million years or so of “civilisation”?

      ...or will we of smug and ever-cocky mankind simply become a finite passing shadow upon this wondrous orbiting planet we call earth?

      ...an insignificant passing phase on this remarkable refuge so wonderfully endowed, so majestically placed, so wondrously giving and accommodating here in the depths of infinite space and time?

      You tell me.

      You obviously think you know so much, so please tell me.

      Gidgee.

    • ishotjr says:

      05:11pm | 04/02/12

      ... Sorry?

    • Frat says:

      07:47pm | 03/02/12

      Alternative therapy (it’s not medicine) practitioners want their claims to be regarded with the same validity as scientifically tested medicine but will not allow them to be subjected to the same rigorous protocols. You can’t have it both ways. Either the therapy has a scientific basis and can therefore be called medicine or it hasn’t. As for the arguments that alternative therapy requires an open mind, nothing could be further from the truth. Alternative therapy practitioners will remain convinced of the effectiveness of their treatments even when the evidence is to the contrary. Whereas, science practioners will alter an existing theory if evidence shows the inadequacy of it to explain phenomena. This will involve rigorous experimentation to gather data. If universities are teaching methods of scrutinisation of alternative therapies and the like then it is a legitimate use of university resources. But if this is a ploy to put bums on seats then taxpayers need to ask questions about how their money is being used because it places alternative therapies at the same educational level as legitimate degrees.

    • TracyS says:

      02:02pm | 05/02/12

      brilliant post - thanks

    • Jim says:

      09:20pm | 03/02/12

      Very happy to read this piece. I was flabbergasted when, a couple of years back, I discovered that reputable Australian universities were teaching approved bachelor’s degrees in natural medicine, with subjects on topics such as homeopathy and reiki. To be quite frank, I don’t want the government to be subsidising such courses with taxpayer dollars.

    • Mr. Grey says:

      06:43pm | 04/02/12

      Universities are run by gullible left wing charlatans. That is why the government hauls them out to give their opinion on whatever new idea they want to push upon us. University professors that have never dealt in the real world but spent their entire life in school with no real world experience are always telling us they know better. Linking the strangest and most far fetched thoughts to make their points. On many occasions It is not long before they are proved wrong and they shrug it off or in some cases try to deny it. Global warming is a particular area where the academics have run wild with exaggerations and false claims.  Professor Ove Hoegh-Guldberg has been claiming the great Barrier Reef is going to be destroyed in a couple of years because of global warming but has now been proved wrong with the discovery coral grows better in warmer water and today the reef is in great shape. Professor Peter Harrison is another who has made these false claims. They want to belief man is killing the world and they and their left wing agenda is the only thing that can save it. The other problem we have is these people are able to obtain government grants for their studies so it is in their interest to fudge the figures. That is also the reason they allow unproven alternative medicines to be taught, it is another way of extracting money for their industry and filling their own ranks with certified charlatans like themselves.

    • Max says:

      10:21am | 05/02/12

      Mr Grey you have hit the nail right on the head.I have very little time for those with the alphabet behind their name.Most are a pain in the butt to deal with and impractical in real life with real world problems.As an aside though mankind as we are has been around for a few thousand years but modern medicine as we know it has only really been around since around WW2.I guess all these non proven medical therapies or their predecessors work to some degree.

    • Jeremy says:

      08:31pm | 05/02/12

      I understand there is much debate in the medical world and I have done allot of research into the area (being a student of Naturopathy myself) and to single out homeopathy and say that there is no research for homeopathy is both a biased and blanket answer. A meta-analysis from the Lancet (Linde 1998) a major medical journal stated that it performers better than placebo (better than belief alone), this is just one of few peer-reviewed articles reviewing many trails. It is the second highest form of medicine in the world, second only to herbs. 80% of the world use rely on herbs in a treatment and healing setting. To be honest, homeopathy does sound strange - but isn’t science about having an open mind? How much have we learnt about our world by looking outside the box? We couldn’t see microorganisms in the past? We used to believe the world was flat didn’t we? Complementary and alternative medicine is both a traditional healing art and an emerging science stepped in thousands of years of culture and use. This comes from someone who not only has researched and studied it - but also lived it. Put simply: it works.  But not all of it, and yes, we are still learning. We always will.  Don’t think that your mission to remove us from universities won’t be met with a strong challenge, if you are ready for a fight, so are we. Just have an open mind so we can sort magic from fact and myth from reality.

    • Goognostic says:

      10:42am | 06/02/12

      I have reviwed the list of FSM supporters (dated 27/12/11) and find it interesting that there are signatories who are executives for professional bodies that offer professional development courses/workshops in natural therapies. This is aside from the bulk of other signatories with obvious vested interests in the medical and pharmaceutical industries. Nepotism and disinformation runs rife in the medical establishment, as many natural therapies continue to gain greater credibility via legitimate research.

    • Goognostic says:

      10:34am | 07/02/12

      “The group of medical researchers and scientists are misinformed regarding world, national and state developments in relation to Traditional Medicine/Complementary & Alternative Medicine and would be better advised to discuss with universities, ways in which they can work together to reduce the ever increasing and significant number of complaints received by the Health Care Complaints Commission from the public regarding doctors, dentists and nurses…. Support by the Federal Government, State Governments, Government Research Departments, WHO, Universities and Colleges demonstrates there is a commitment to quality research and education in the Complementary & Alternative Medicine professions in Australia.”

      http://www.australiannaturaltherapistsassociation.com.au/news/archive/2012/item_0231.php

    • Claire says:

      11:43am | 27/02/12

      I agree with Heathers’ initial assessment that holistic or alternative medicines should not be included in curriculum for four year, degree granting institutions. He made a strong argument when discussing that the science that is supposed to be backing these practices is ineffective and that any experimentation that has been conducted has failed to produce any conclusive results.

      However, I do not think it is necessary for the subjects to be dropped entirely from these institutions but rather that the course materials be absorbed into other, perhaps related areas of study. Because, as Craig stated above, universities exist as centers of knowledge and structured environments are the best places for teaching any subject, where things can be controlled, as opposed to outside of these institutions and beyond any guidelines.

      Though, in considering the continuation of courses in holistic or alternative medicines, university administrators should perhaps consider too other ‘pseudo- scientific’ study paths – some others have said psychiatry, political science and economics. It would possibly be an idea for administrators to audit and readjust entire curricula.

    • Dogma says:

      04:19pm | 06/03/12

      Different things work for different people. People should have the freedom of choice to learn what they like without interference on their sovereignty. We should have the freedom without a nannying State telling us how to eat, live, learn and work. This isn’t about care of people’s interests. Its about protecting the interests and profits of certain industries whilst slowly brainwashing the public and stripping away at people freedoms whilst we lap it up. Keep it under the rug so to speak.

    • SCIENCE WINS EVERYTIME says:

      11:46am | 14/05/12

      Your ignorance is not bliss.  No-one is telling you what to think, or being a nanny.  Friends of Science in Medicine is merely a platform that advocates EVIDENCE-BASED MEDICINE - that is, if you are sick, then the treatment you receive is backed by evidence.

      Alternative medicine has either not been proven to work, or been proven not to work.  When alternative medicine has been proven to work - guess what it is called?  That is right, MEDICINE.  So - all FSM is saying is PROVE IT.  That’s it.

      Universities are a hub of knowledge:  Research and Training are their core functions.  How can non-evidence based “medicine” be allowed?  Simply - because of money.  People like to believe in alternative things - whether they are true or not - and the university can glean money from them to pay for real research.  What FSM is saying is that Universities should not legitimise these practices unless they support themselves with evidence. 

      It is not brainwashing.  You have been brainwashed by conspiracy theorists.  Think for yourself and ask yourself, if you or your mother or child were sick - would YOU opt for a treatment that has no evidence to back its claims?  Would you choose that over something that does have evidence?  If you do, then you are guilty of some form of assault - particularly if it’s your child, it should be child abuse.

 

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