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When it comes to women’s fashion, size does matter

Julia Thornton

by Julia Thornton

26 Aug 05:45am

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Filed under: Clothing, Fashion, Women

84 comments

For those of you with dirty minds or obsessed with margins, you might want to skip to the next article, I want to talk about women’s clothing.

They don't make them like they used to

If you are a woman, and you have done a shopping day anywhere in Australia, you will know what I’m talking about. Size matters.

As a size 12 (you may be a size 6, 8, 10, 14, 16), when I try on a garment which says it is ‘size 12’ (or in your case size 6, 8, 10, 14, 16) I don’t expect to see gaping sides or splitting seams. I expect to see a garment which may suit me or not and that would depend on neckline, hemline and/or if it’s cut on the bias or with the grain.

But in Australia, and I’m not sure if other women in other countries are facing this problem, there is a huge discrepancy between size 12 in one shop and the next and the next.

In fact, on a recent shopping trip to Melbourne’s Bridge Road, I went from a size 10 to 16 in three shops and from a Medium to a Large in the one shop.

Compare this with my husband who buys a certain brand of shirt which is 42 in the arm and 82 in the collar. He can buy this shirt without taking it out of the packet. He can send me to buy this shirt when it’s on special during the week. We can take the shirt out of the packet, put the pins in the bin, wash and iron the shirt before he puts it on and it still fits.

I can’t imagine sending my husband off to buy me a pair of underpants in my size without me trying them on first.

And even if he did, there is no guarantee that after I wash them, they’ll fit me again.

One shop assistant said it had to do with everything being made in China. I wondered if there was no concept of metric in that country.

I wondered what system of measurement they used in China, if the translation between English and Mandarin or Cantonese was poor and numbers like 12 were coming out as 10.

Then it occurred to me that we had a Free Trade Agreement with China. Is there anything in that agreement which specifies the use of metric when measuring women’s clothing?

We’re very quick to specify what is acceptable in the way of chemicals on our food; what currency is used in which nation and we don’t allow certain paints on kids’ toys.

But we didn’t say to the clothing manufacturers of China, this is our metric system and this is how our women measure themselves, so stick to it or it’s a breech.

Or did we and are we not telling them to pull their socks up?

It was in the bra shop where I tried on a 10E bra, 12DD and a 16C that I realised that until we (women) demanded standards that were real, logical and consistent, many more of our precious days off, weekends or, worse, lunchtimes would be wasted in tiny little dressing rooms trying on clothes that may or may not fit.

There may be more pressing women’s issues the government should focus on, but this is about productivity.

Size matters. So can we get a standard size and make sure the manufacturers stick to it?

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84 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • bella says:

      06:29am | 26/08/10

      42 in the arm and 82 in the collar. He must have a very fat neck and incredibly short arms. Still, each to his own.

      Reply

    • Julia Thornton says:

      11:23am | 26/08/10

      Sorry. Other way around. And he tells me he’s 44 and 83.

    • hugh says:

      11:41am | 26/08/10

      I’m 42 in the neck bella - hardly fat. In fact, it’s probably the standard bloke size.

      Any less and you’re going out with a runt.
      Why not go out with an 8 year old boy instead of a man? Cause that’s what it sounds like you like

    • Razor says:

      11:57am | 26/08/10

      Hugh, I think you pulled the trigger a bit quick on that one.

    • rick says:

      03:50pm | 26/08/10

      OH my, Hugh, you took that one a bit personal! Did it bring back any memories from when you were picked on for your neck?

    • Bec says:

      06:52am | 26/08/10

      From working in menswear in a past life it’s obvious and disappointing that clothing made for men is generally better stitched and fitting, with good quality materials. It’s also invariably cheaper and more comfortable.

      I do think that the old-fashioned sexist mindset has something to do with it. Women’s clothing is made for display and usually it’s made in terrible conditions. It took me forever to find women’s stores that sell locally-made, well-fitting, functional clothing made with natural and durable fibres that still vaguely looks flattering and feminine. And even then, it costs me an arm and a leg.

      Also, can we get more pockets? Good quality, deep pockets with lining made of fabric which is sturdier than al-foil, that lie flat when we wear our pants and can assist me in leading the wallet/bag-free life I dream of.

      Reply

    • E says:

      08:16am | 26/08/10

      haha ... sexist mindset indeed, the sexist mindset of women.
      The mindset that women are somehow poor little poppets who just have to accept what the big bad men offer them?What a joke!
      The sizing issue is because many women will buy whichever brand says they are a smaller size, so of course marketers take advantage of this. The solution? Stop letting you vanity make you choose the brand you are a size 8 in and go for the brand which says you are a size 10. Gonna happen?
      Womens clothes take advantage of womens willingness to purchase a lower quality, lower utility (no pockets and uncomfortable) product for a higher price in order to conform to the expectations of the bitches they mistakenly call friends. The solution, stop paying for it! Just dont buy it and the brands will go out of business, its called market place evolution and its driven by consumer choice.
      Geeze get over it, stop begging for things (can we get more pockets… bah!)  and stop being such a whining victim. Looser.

    • Mary wide bay says:

      08:26am | 26/08/10

      I want pockets too Bec.

    • E says:

      09:20am | 26/08/10

      Clearly you want to conform to some media created ideal more than you want pockets.

    • Sickemrex says:

      10:24am | 26/08/10

      E for Eric I guess?  I’ll buy whatever is good quality and fits properly.  Let me spell it out for you….  We don’t care whether we are an “8” or a “16” or a “purple people eater” size, we just want consistency.  Most men can buy clothes online knowing that a 36 is a 36.  It’s not whining, it’s asking for the same approach to sizing that applies to men’s clothes.

      Mind you, I don’t think it’s specifically directed at women, my 11 month old baby is a 00 or a 0 or a 1 depending on the brand.

      Ah pockets, practical pockets.

    • bec says:

      10:59am | 26/08/10

      You’re right, E, I am a “looser”. Despite making a direct request for well-made, functional clothing, regardless of whether it was “trendy” or not, I am apparently trying to buy clothes with a smaller label size because I want to fit in with the crowd! Your logic is *stellar*. I bet your parents are related to each other by blood.

    • K says:

      11:50am | 26/08/10

      E, you obviously have no idea what it’s like to try and find womens clothes that fit. I do not buy brand name or designer clothes. Most of my clothes are purchased from Target and Big W as I don’t give a rats ass about fashion and just want clothes that are comfortable. Having said this, even within stores like Big W, the actual size varies. You try on one top that says it’s a size 10 and it’s way too big for you, but then you try on another similar top in a 16 and it’s too tight. Same thing happens with pants. For me there is no vanity about it, I don’t give a shit what I look like and I have better things to do with my time then have to try on a million different garments simply to find one that fits so I can walk out of the house with clothes on rather than naked.

      You assert that we should just stop paying for it…well then, what would you have me wear? Could you advise me where this magical shop is that has consistent sizing that actually reflects the size on the tag? Coz I would love to know where that shop is. It would be a dream to walk in and be able to try on a pair of pants in my size, that is the same size across all the styles, and not have to take in about a hundred pairs in every size to try on.

      This is a problem that effects every single piece of women’s clothing made, not just ‘brands’ and until the day I want to walk around naked or spend my life sewing my own clothes, I have no choice but to pay for it.

      P.S A tip for further commenting…this is an adult forum, not primary school, don’t finish your comment off with a personal attack on the previous commenter…it makes you sound petty and devalues your argument. You can disagree without name calling.

    • JAX says:

      11:53am | 26/08/10

      I don’t buy ‘fashion’ I like cheap clothes like K-Mart or BigW or Fashion Fair awesome clothes for a fraction of the cost, I like comfortable, I would rather be comfortable than ‘with it’ I don’t care about fashion trends at all, given that I only own 5 pairs of shoes and none of those are heels I can quite seriously state this and be taken literally not just grand standing. I do agree with the size issue though, and OMG yes pockets!

    • rick says:

      03:55pm | 26/08/10

      @sickemrex:

      correction: men buy online knowing that a 36 is a 36 because most of us don’t give a rat’s if it fits a little bit like a 34 or a little bit like a 38.

    • JJJ says:

      06:58am | 26/08/10

      Standardisation is all well and good in theory, but my size 12 body is almost certainly not the same shape as yours, so why should all clothes be exactly the same?
      After a few shopping trips, I now know which brands make their clothes a tight fit and which make a loose fit and take that into account. I also know which shoe-brands make their shoes smaller than most and my male partner knows which brands make clothes for men that don’t have a chest or arms. That’s the joy of choice and difference.

      Reply

    • NEFFA says:

      11:33am | 26/08/10

      I don’t think anyone is asking for all clothing to be exactly the same, that would make life a little dull for all of us. All we are asking for is a size 12 to be a size 12.
      different STYLES of clothes will suit different shapes, however the size should be the same.

    • Julia Thornton says:

      11:36am | 26/08/10

      JJJ, if we both have an 84 waist and a 90 hips, then we are the same size. But depending on where your waist is (you may be high waisted like me or not) you might buy a different style.

      Bras are a good example - like men’s shirts - you have the 36 or 12 for the measurement of your ribcage and the A, AA, B, C etc for the cup size. This means a woman who is a size 10 and another who is size 14 can have the same bust measurement but different body shape.

      My point is that manufacturers need to understand that 12 is x number of cm around the rib cage and then all manufacturers use that measurement.

      Jeans are starting to do it. Mid rise, low rise, classic fit (read Kath extra long zip); long, extra long and regular length and the size.

      This takes into account different body shapes.

    • Razor says:

      12:02pm | 26/08/10

      As the Author says - I can send anyone out to outfit me from top to toe - shoes, socks, jocks, pants, shirt, jacket and I even know my hat size - know it will fit.  I wouldn’t dare buy her clothes and as for lingerie - that’s just asking for trouble.

    • SarahJaneJones says:

      02:19pm | 29/08/10

      Agree. Especially because women have breasts, which vary in size.

    • Mary wide bay says:

      07:40am | 26/08/10

      Second that Julia. Your article made me realise that I don’t ever look at labels any more for sizing. I just hold the garment up in front of me to see if I think that it’ll fit. So there, looks matter too.

      Reply

    • thatmosis says:

      07:57am | 26/08/10

      Womens clothing is made a lot worse because the makers know that generally women buy an article, wear it once and put it away to collect dust. Have a good look in your wardrobes girls and see if Im not right. Men usually buy and article of clothing and wear it for years and years so it has to be better made. I also like the new sizes coming onto the market to suit the new shapes out there, fat arse, lard arse and OMG the suns disappeared sounds about right for todays flattering shaped people, both men and women.

      Reply

    • Kelly says:

      09:54am | 26/08/10

      Huh? Women get cruddier clothes because they wear articles once? Where did you get that fantastic research, thatmosis ... the ponds institute?

    • Julia Thornton says:

      11:27am | 26/08/10

      No! I can’t accept that. I had a pair of jeans when I was 20-23 that I wore until I had holes in them. Then my friend took them and made them into shorts. I had t-shirts that I wore for years. I don’t believe that we should be so disposable with our resources.

    • JAX says:

      11:57am | 26/08/10

      I don’t know what women you are talking about but I own 3 pairs of jeans and don’t buy a new one until I start getting holes in them or the zipper breaks, i have worn them in and they are super comfortable. I don’t own anything that I have only worn once and then never again, i keep a very organised closet and don’t have anything that is not used, I use the rule of thumb if you haven’t worn it in a year you don’t need it.

    • E says:

      08:19am | 26/08/10

      As a man, if I have doubt over the sizing of my clothes, i just buy and XBox game instead and dont think about it.
      Maybe if some women were a little less obsessed with seeking approval by looking pretty this would be less important to you?

      Reply

    • BT says:

      09:17am | 26/08/10

      Right, well while you are enjoying being alone with your XBox, the rest of us are out there getting a life. No one is obsessing - we just want value for money and to look decent in public.

    • Julia says:

      09:40am | 26/08/10

      I hate buying clothes, in fact, I only buy them when the ones I’ve got are falling apart at the seams. I much prefer to buy books!

    • Sal says:

      10:31am | 26/08/10

      @E,
      “As a man, if I have doubt over the sizing of my clothes, i just buy and XBox game instead and dont think about it.”  Non-thinking, naked, XBox enthusiast….....sounds like a Lavalife profile to be proud of.

    • Smokey says:

      08:38am | 26/08/10

      The size 12 tops I buy always fit me. Pants vary, just try on a few. Don’t buy clothes from cheap chain stores or trend shops that use sweatshop labour.
      I wear my clothes til theyre worn, patch them, then wear them some more. I also buy second-clothes. Im not a hippy, just a practical woman.

      Reply

    • Jacqui says:

      04:31pm | 26/08/10

      Show me a store that doesn’t have their clothes made in China…

    • Smokey says:

      07:58am | 27/08/10

      Jacqui there are stores committed to non-sweatshop labour. Google it.

    • KH says:

      08:42am | 26/08/10

      The argument here is for the use of actual measurements, rather than the abstract concept of ‘size’.  Mens clothes are often fitted this way - a waist measurement, a chest measurement, etc.  Convenient and easy, and they don’t have to waste large amounts of time trying on the same thing 4 times for fit.  For womens clothes, the claim is that ‘everyone is a different shape, so it wouldn’t work’.  Nonsense.  You are either 76cm around the waist, or you aren’t.  It doesn’t matter what height you are, what your legs look like, who the prime minister is this week or anything else.  76cm is 76cm, no matter where it is, or even what it is.  The laws of physics do not vary by individual….....You can’t argue with 76cm. It is what it is.

      My wardrobe has currently - size 10 jeans (the blue levis), size 12 jeans (the black levis)  size 8 skirts, size 10 skirts, size XS tops, size S tops, and size M tops, all of which fit me.  I don’t mind trying on something to see if the colour, cut etc are OK, but honestly, having to do it 3 extra times to get the size right is ridiculous. 

      Women are encouraged to waste enoromous amounts of time trying to be a ‘size’, which in reality is a moving target, depending on where you shop.  For some of us, who actually loathe clothes and shoe shopping, it just makes the whole experience painful.  As much as I would like to see measurements instead of these meaningless sizes, it won’t happen unless its legislated.

      Reply

    • E says:

      09:25am | 26/08/10

      Good post.
      I know that for mens clothing I generally have a choice of S,M,L,XL and I am M. For shirts I get 42/86 and trousers 34L, and thats pretty much it! Shoes can be a hassle.
      I think one issue is that womens’ fit IS more exacting, men dont care much if their tops arent ‘accentuating their figure’ while women consider this important.

    • s m says:

      08:50am | 26/08/10

      I learnt to sew when I was 17 and still skinny because I’d gotten tired of not being able to buy clothes that fit my shape.  Buying a pair of jeans that fit me around my hips while not gaping at the waist is nigh on impossible. 

      But that said, I still expect a size twelve to be the same no matter what store I go in, or what department of the same store I go into.  I wrote some years ago to one of the major department stores to query why I sometimes needed a 10, sometimes a 12 and sometimes a 14 when I shopped in their store, and the explanation I received was that there is no Australian standard for sizing for women’s clothes.

      Reply

    • BT says:

      09:15am | 26/08/10

      That is why I buy most of my clothes online and have them shipped in from the UK. Better quality, better designs, standard sizes and I don’t get filmed trying on the garments in a fitting room. Works for me.

      Reply

    • Benster says:

      09:42am | 26/08/10

      I’ve been told by those in the rag trade that many Chinese manufacturers will sew in whichever size label is to hand, to fill an order, regardless of the actual measurements of the clothing. “You want size 10, here you go” ,,,

      Reply

    • stephen says:

      11:21am | 26/08/10

      I think that’s right. In China’s bicycle factories, they literally pull peple off the streets inside to work on the assembly line.
      One size doen’t fit all, but having said that, gals like spending all day shopping, so what’s wrong with ‘try before yer buy ?’

    • JAX says:

      12:02pm | 26/08/10

      Sorry to shatter your reality Stephen but not ALL girls like shopping

    • Lis says:

      01:16pm | 26/08/10

      I bought 4 pairs of jeans from the same store, over the phone as I lived in a town where there weren’t many clothing stores.  I ordered all the same size.  When I tried them on, 2 pairs would not fit and the other 2 were just fine.  They were all the same style of jeans, I needed them for work and I was truly astounded at the differences in the sizes!  I hate clothes and shoe shopping, it has to be the most agonising experience as you HAVE to try on everything, even if you want to buy mutiples of one particular item.  My wardrobe is not extensive, everything I have I wear to death (even my shoes).  If manufacturers can’t measure, then the buyers should go somewhere else!

    • Paul C says:

      10:02am | 26/08/10

      I have a similar problem with mens clothes. There’s an incredible discrepancy in sizing - I usually wear XL shirts but most of the time what is marked as XL fits more like an M or, at best, an L. And no, it’s not because I’m in size denial - I’ll grab a different brand and the XL fits perfectly. Gone are the days of picking something I like in the right size and buying it without trying it on.

      I find it particularly odd that sizes are getting smaller when we, as a nation, are apparently getting fatter. Is it a clothing industry conspiracy to get us all to the gym?

      Reply

    • Emma says:

      10:03am | 26/08/10

      I totally agree with making the sizes uniform. I can be a size 6 or 8 then in other shops I am a 12… its crazy!!!

      And people wonder why women are self conscious about their bodies… when you fit into a size and you are happy and content with that size you go to another shop and they tell you that none of their clothes will fit you or that you are a large in this particular store.. even though I am classed as thin…

      Reply

    • Emma says:

      10:04am | 26/08/10

      I totally agree with making the sizes uniform. I can be a size 6 or 8 then in other shops I am a 12… its crazy!!!

      And people wonder why women are self conscious about their bodies… when you fit into a size and you are happy and content with that size you go to another shop and they tell you that none of their clothes will fit you or that you are a large in this particular store.. even though I am classed as thin…

      Reply

    • Clare says:

      10:17am | 26/08/10

      As a dressmaker, the same thing occurs with paper patterns as well….sometimes a size 12 pattern is small, sometimes it is large. i think some of the confusion is caused by European sizing, Asian sizing and American sizing….all different. Some manufacturers don’t seem to care to do any sort of a conversion to Australian ‘standards’, and I think this has gone on for so long that such standards no longer exist.

      Reply

    • AJ says:

      10:25am | 26/08/10

      While nowhere near as extreme as the size variances that I’m sure women experience, shopping for men’s clothes can also be a challenge.

      My preferred brand of business shirt keeps changing their size. I have around 10 shirts from the same brand in the same size, but they all have different length sleeves, different waist measurements and different neck sizes.

      I have the same problem with casual clothes, although not to the same extent. My preferred “casual” clothes brand can vary widely - even amongst the same style of clothes. I recently quickly snapped up an assortment of “2 for 1” t-shirts all in the same size without trying them on, only to find that each and every one was a different size once I got home with some being smaller/shorter than others which were wider/longer.

      It’s ridiculous that the same garment (but in different colours) is not the same size.

      Reply

    • Razor says:

      12:06pm | 26/08/10

      My preferred shirt suppliers, Ganton, are on the money everytime and I know when I buy Rodd & Gunn clothes that they will be the right size and last forever.

    • Shama says:

      10:48am | 26/08/10

      Men’s clothing is made in China too, including your husband’s.  The problem then doesn’t lie with “communicating” the metric system to China. That was quite ridiculous.

      The problem really is with customers, the nature of the clientele and the snob value attached to sizes in Australia-something men do not suffer from*.  The hipper shops tend to have smaller sized clothing so even a size 14 is small. The mumsy shops start large = even a size 8 is generous.  Once you know what kind of store it is buying is easy.

      *I do note however that here too some of the hipper stores trageted at young men tend to have impossibly snug and small sized clothing - no consistency here.

      Reply

    • KH says:

      01:41pm | 26/08/10

      I find it disturbing that shops that target the younger demographic do tend to have ‘smaller’ sizes - I am a size 8 in Sussan, a 8-10 (depending on the cut) at Country Road, but at one store which I wont name, I was a size 14.  If I put a 14 on in any store that does not target teens, i am never over a 10.  So it was a little disconcerting to find a 14 was a snug fit.  I only wonder what it does to the head of a 16 year old - I mean I am 169cm tall and 56kg - i.e. right on the bottom of my healthy weight range, and I look pretty lean.  What would I have to do to be a 10 in that store?!  That is just wrong.  If things were just sized in cm (waist, hips, chest etc) there wouldn’t be that issue.

    • Shama says:

      02:16pm | 26/08/10

      KH even I wonder about this. Teens come in a variety of shapes so why do these stores stock only small sizes?

      I think its useless to get stores to change.  You can have as many guidelines as you want.  But stores need to sell clothes and marketing and image is important. Unfortunately in our culture this means stores will want to please customers who are fixated on size as a measurement of their weight-hence the wild variation. Customers IMO would not want to buy clothes where actual measurements are baldly stated unless things slowly begin to change.

    • Fiona says:

      10:49am | 26/08/10

      The fabrics used in men’s and women’s clothes, and to an extent, the way they’re put together is based around their buying habits: men go clothes shopping less often, so their items are made to last, whereas women shop for clothes more frequently so basically their clothes are made to disintegrate when brought home from the store. This is what a friend who used to work in the industry told me, anyway.

      Not long ago I was wanting to buy a dress from an online boutique, whose only specification in regards to size was “an Australian standard size 12”. I scratched my head, and emailed them, telling them there’s no such thing as a standard size 12, and could they please show the measurements of their garments as do most other online retailers.

      I’ve learned not to let it bother me. So I’m a size 12 at Saba, but a size 14 in Levi’s - all it shows me is the discrepancy in the sizing standard here. Great article

      Reply

    • MayM says:

      11:56am | 27/08/10

      I buy clothes more frequently because they don’t last, not because I want to. Years ago if I got tired of something or outgrew it it was still in good condition to donate. Now I have a steady supply of rags fit only for gardening. Years ago I’d take an assortment of garments into the dressing room to try on to see what I like. Now I take the same garment in 3-4 sizes to try on to see what will fit.
      If I find something I love I go back to buy more. It started because I felt sad when some of my really old faves finally wore out, but now it’s because things wear out so fast and it’s such a pain to find something to replace them. The size discrepancies is definitely part of the hassle. Another nuisance is the amount of washing required to get the chemical smells out (unlike some countries we have no regulations about that). It’s just so much easier to trial one garment for a few weeks and then go buy and wash a bulk lot of spares. I do try them all on though because I’ve found that even a rack of identically labelled garments can have variation in size, and in quality of assembly (eg crooked pockets, ruched seams).
      I loathe shopping and have been searching for online clothes stores overseas which ship to Australia.

    • too fat for some says:

      10:50am | 26/08/10

      It’s a joke. I often shop at a few fashiony stores and comfortably fit into their size 14 tops, dresses etc. But skirts and jeans? Can barely get my arm into the size 14 jeans. Why, in the one store, do the sizes vary so much? I then go into the chain of stores for ‘plus size’ and the extra small is way too big. Logic?

      Reply

    • JAX says:

      12:23pm | 26/08/10

      I think I have found your problem, Jeans go on the bottom, your legs go in first.

    • Markus says:

      10:54am | 26/08/10

      As E mentioned above, very few men have this problem as most men’s clothes have real measurements instead of vague sizes.
      I can go into a store and buy a pair of pants with a 32” (or 80cm depending on producer) waist, and all of them will be the same size.
      I do have issues with buying suits as my shoulders are much broader than the average chest to waist ratio used, so usually require custom matching, but that’s hardly the retailers fault.

      I do find it strange that women’s clothing is not the same and have no consistency with sizes. Perhaps it really is due to vanity?

      Reply

    • Sickemrex says:

      02:25pm | 26/08/10

      How is it vanity?  All the women on here have said they just want something that fits and lasts, regardless of size.  We are just saying that it would be easier if we know we are a size 8, 14 or 473, that clothes in that size will fit us.  I don’t like shopping either!

    • Anjuli says:

      10:59am | 26/08/10

      By the size of trouser I buy I am a 12, 14, 16. I bought a jacket from a very expensive shop which was on sale it was a 14 yet the thermal long sleeve vest also bought at the same shop was a 14 was way too tight.
      As for pockets I sew them into the garment myself or put fasteners on the ones that are already there,I have not used a hand bag for years, as I only ever take a very small card size wallet with me .

      Reply

    • Eric says:

      11:07am | 26/08/10

      Sickmerex, Eric is Eric and E is not Eric.

      I have to hand it to E, though, he sure nailed Bec on her little boo-hoo-it-s-all-men’s-fault rant! :D

      Reply

    • Julia Thornton says:

      11:42am | 26/08/10

      Naomi Wolf aruged in The Beauty Myth that men create women’s clothes for the purpose of further oppressing them financially.

    • bec says:

      12:46pm | 26/08/10

      I didn’t blame men, I blamed systematic sexism.

      And furthermore, he didn’t address a single thing I mentioned. He argued that I said the exact opposite of what I said, presupposed my intentions for buying clothes when they were laid out exactly and in clear English, and decided to lump 3 million women into a single stereotype based on the number of women he gets to engage with from the comfort of his parent’s basement (4).

      My year eight boys respond with more intelligence and relevance than either of you two are capable with. I also suspect they have, on average, seven years more education than the both of you together.

    • Eric says:

      03:53pm | 26/08/10

      Naomi Wolf is very pretty, but I’ve always regarded her as a bit of an airhead. This theory doesn’t change my mind.

      Women, and some gay men, create women’s clothes. Women, not heterosexual men, obsess about clothes. I’ve never met a man who takes half an hour to decide what to wear before stepping outside the house.

      Saying that women’s clothes are a male plot is like saying beer is a female plot to oppress men. Neither sex needs any encouragement to go for what it wants.

    • Dave H says:

      11:19am | 26/08/10

      With regard to men’s clothes being cheaper, I think that’s actually a bit of a lie. My girlfriend can go shopping and easily pick up a handful of decent tops for under $20 and some even under $10 each. If I want to pick up some polo shirts etc, I’m normally looking at about $40 per shirt for anything even remotely decent. As for business shirts, my company uses bespoke tailored shirts that are about $180 each (but they’re definitely worth it!). Before we switched to these, normal, good quality shirts would cost about $90 each.

      I suspect that for women (as with for men) the more you’re prepared to pay for clothing, the better the standardisation of size and cut gets.

      So for me, it seems that women’s fashion comes down to the following:

      Price, quality, accurate sizing. Pick 2.

      Reply

    • MayM says:

      12:15pm | 27/08/10

      I have the feeling that men get more choice with moderate prices, durability and washability. Women can certainly find cheaper clothes (rubbish) and more expensive clothes (it’s a gamble whether the extra money gets you extra quality though).

    • Mistress D says:

      11:22am | 26/08/10

      I hear you on the bra sizes!

      My body doesn’t change that much, it hasn’t in the last 10 years. I go between C and D cups depending on the day (yes I have been properly fitted)

      Then, 6 months ago, I needed a bra. I skipped the fitting because as nothing has changed, I should be able to find my own size….Right?

      After half an hour, searching the racks (excuse the pun) and more and more desperate attempts by my shopping buddy with “Here, try this one” I found the bra that fit…..An A cup.

      I was in tears. How did I lose 2 CUP SIZES in a matter of months? I’ve already got a slender figure and feel boyish at the best of times, to have an A cup on top of that just destroyed me that day.

      It wasn’t until I discovered that the particular brand had caused my bigger chested friends real problems -“I can’t even fit into their bras! Their sizing is so out of wack with everything else” that I felt better.

      It was the shock of expecting to be one size and finding I was another. Plus, that half hour could have been spend doing much more beneficial things than destroying my self confidence.

      Reply

    • Miss T says:

      11:36am | 26/08/10

      Oh boo hoo. I’m so very tired of women (of which I am one) having a cry over sizing issues. I don’t believe it’s an issue of being time poor and needing standardised sizing, but rather the fact one’s ego takes a battering each time a pair of jeans in “my size” doesn’t fit. Forget about the numbers on the labels and purchase the clothes that fit perfectly and make you look and feel fantastic.
      I believe it’s time women got over this insignificant issue and found more important/interesting things to talk about than weight and diets.

      Reply

    • KH says:

      02:00pm | 26/08/10

      Bah.  I have already stated I have clothes in various sizes.  The labels are on the inside, so who would know? I could say anything couldn’t I.  The issue is I HATE clothes shopping.  I loathe it.  I want it over as quickly as possible.  It would be nice to be able to select a few items, try them for colour/cut, and get the hell out of there.  Having to stand around whilst the barely there sales assistant goes off looking for 2 other sizes is just annoying.  Its not insignificant as it is wasting my time.  Time I could be doing something interesting!  If sizing was in cm, and consistent, I could just shop online.  That would be even better.

    • TtFH says:

      11:56am | 26/08/10

      I reckon it *is* The same with men’s clothing. I can buy shirts that are large, medium or extra large, and they’ll all fit the same, and I can’t buy online and be confident I’ll get the right size.  I can get a shirt with a 42 neck (not 82 - my deity!) that’s perfect, and another size 42 that chokes.

      When I recently holed a pair of newish jeans, I went back for another pair in the same brand, cut and size - they didn’t fit. Even within the same brand there are strange discrepancies. I ended up buying the same size and cut in a different brand, but they’re a little big.

      But it’s not really a biggie - I just always try clothes on, and take more than one sample into the change rooms.

      Reply

    • AdamC says:

      11:56am | 26/08/10

      I agree with the overall conceit of this article, but stress the idea that men can simply buy shirts online because of the use of actual measurements is wrong. While theoretically possible, it is only feasible when one has purchased from the vendor before and can be confident that the cut and fit are appropriate. A shirt can be, say, a 38 and billow out like a poncho or, conversely, barely contain a belly.

      In summary, I never buy shirts without trying them on. That goes double for pants, treble for jackets and quadruple for suits.

      One way I cut down time when clothes shopping is to only shop at particular stores that I like and have a happy history with. I just can’t stand the idea of spending hours traipsing around, becoming more and more disappointed and bored ...

      Reply

    • neil says:

      12:13pm | 26/08/10

      i have found the same issue in mens clothes, on a recent trip to asia I was shopping for “designer” jeans but found I had the go up from my normal 32 inch waiste to 34. On returning I measured the actual size and found the asia jeans were correct and my Levis and other locally purchased jeans were two inches larger than labled.

      This can only be to massage mens egos so they can fool themselves that those few extra kilos don’t show.

      Reply

    • Kate says:

      12:21pm | 26/08/10

      I’d rather start with telling the Chinese manufacturers to treat their workers better, not use sweatshops and children to pump out the huge amounts of clothes that we rich westerners crave.  Then we can get started on the sizing.  Although I tend to agree with the - wear what fits and suits you, regardless of the size.  Oh and Julia love, it’s spelled “breach”.

      Reply

    • Julia thornton says:

      02:04pm | 26/08/10

      Thanks, Kate. Coming from someone who doesn’t use commas that means a lot.

    • Kate says:

      03:12pm | 26/08/10

      I see commas!  But yes, touche -  as my grammar was perhaps not the best - my comment came back and bit me on the arse.

    • ana says:

      12:56pm | 26/08/10

      This article is so true! Right now i am wearing a size 10 skirt, size 16 shirt and size 14 underwear…

      Reply

    • Kevin says:

      01:02pm | 26/08/10

      If China can manufacture clothes for men and comes out the same every time, i doubt that they cant do the same for women’s clothing.  your logic, or the shop assistant’s logic, doesnt make sense

      Reply

    • JC says:

      01:31pm | 26/08/10

      I knew it would happen,  but seriously people, how has a post about womens clothing descended into yet another anti-woman tirade.
      So ladies, know it, we are all either vacuous, vain spendthrifts with no common sense (thats if your good looking) or overweight, sad, depressed no-hopers (if you are not so much).
      Time to stop putting everone in the same basket. everyone is different and should be treated as such

      Reply

    • Wendy says:

      02:01pm | 26/08/10

      Logically I know it’s dumb, but like it or not, when I try on a 14 (I am generally a 12), rather than think ‘the clothes are a small size” I think “oh no I am fatter”.... A standard size would be good for the soul…. rather than plunge one into despair!!

      Reply

    • No jeans for me says:

      02:46pm | 26/08/10

      Jeans are the worst for me. I’m a size 10 with with female hips and a narrow waist, a fairly normal female figure I would have thought. So, why does every single pair of jeans I try on either not fit over my bum or gapes hugely at the waist? And no, I don’t think my bum is THAT big, not small, but normal I think. Only horrendoulsy expensive Levis have ever fit me correctly. And why can’t jeans retailers not sell different leg lengths? The only place I’ve ever seen them is in Target, but those don’t fit up top.
      If anyone ever wants to frighten me, threaten to take me jeans shopping.

      Reply

    • JACS says:

      03:23pm | 26/08/10

      I thought the problem with sizing was to do with the fact that the sizes are based on data from 1920 or sometime long ago and doesn’t take into account the fact that we are all generally taller and heavier. Also that manufacturer’s and designers can work within a range for each size which the reason we get small or larger 12’s etc.

      Reply

    • rick says:

      04:00pm | 26/08/10

      “I went from a size 10 to 16 in three shops and from a Medium to a Large in the one shop.”

      Q: were you eating while shopping?

      Reply

    • Caitlin O'Connor says:

      04:34pm | 26/08/10

      The last time women’s clothes sizes were statistically addressed - ie, a survey was made of women and measurements taken and clothes sizes developed from those measurements - was a LONG time ago.  From a CHOICE article:

      ” The most recent Australian clothing standard for adult men and women was withdrawn in 2007 as it was considered no longer relevant. Established in 1959, the standard was based on data from a 1926 study of women conducted by underwear manufacturer Berlei and some US Department of Commerce Standards. After 1970, several revisions were made to the standard for women using data provided by the Australian Women’s Weekly when 11,455 female readers measured themselves and posted in the results, the last revision taking place in 1975.”
      (http://tinyurl.com/2drd6kl)

      In other words: there is no current standard sizing, and what there is is based purely on very old figures if at all.

      No wonder it’s frustrating!

      And: you’re talking about the smaller sizes.  Try even finding clothes once you’re past a size 18: especially exercise clothes. 

      All of that without addressing the problem of clothes that shrink, as Julie mentioned, after washing. 

      Sometimes I wish I lived somewhere warm enough to be a nudist…

      Reply

    • Long Legged says:

      05:07pm | 26/08/10

      im glad that someone else has noticed this as well! One of my other major problems with clothes is that im 5’11 and therefore have long arms and legs but im a size 6 - 8 in clothes. pants and jackets are made for girls who are 5’8 and have short arms and legs and i would have to buy a size 16 or 18 for them to be long enough! i long ago gave up trying to find pants that fit and generally wear skirts, dresses or shorts and same with jackets i roll the sleeves up so you cant tell they are too short but since moving to an area that actually has winter im finding that stockings do nothing and am in desperate need of pants that do not freeze my ankles!!!! =D

      Reply

    • Ton says:

      05:21pm | 26/08/10

      If men are looked for fitted clothes we have the same problem.

      There is probably an argument to made around the fact that some women get cranky when they are ‘forced’ to buy a size greater than what they imagine they need. If you owned a clothing label, would you go for accuracy, or would you pander to the fact that some women will buy a particular brand BECAUSE they are a size 8 in it, while they are a size 12 in the competing brands.

      Reply

    • Elsie says:

      05:29pm | 26/08/10

      I bought two dresses on the same day recently. Both were classic form-fitting hourglass type. The Veronica Maine is a size 10 and the FCUK is a size 14. Laid on top of each other, the measurements are identical.

      Reply

    • Catharine Lumby says:

      08:52pm | 26/08/10

      Julia: Well said.Drives me mad too. I’ve always been small ie a size 8 in old fashioned Anglo terms and these days it means anything between a size 2 in expensive stores who want to pretend they are American and size 12 in stores who want to make women who actually wear size 12 jeans feel ‘good’. Utter crap. Most women - in my experience - just want to buy the bloody jeans, get out of the shop and get back to work or their kids. Loved your piece - spot on.

      Reply

    • Shelby says:

      04:24pm | 30/08/10

      I agree that size does matter when it comes to fashion! Many styles are so much better for smaller sizes!

      Reply
 
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