“This is a vote that is not about morality, that is not about religion. You can’t legislate morality, but you can legislate justice.”

People watch the vote from the Senate chamber. Photo: AP

The words of Senator Eric Schneiderman, New York Attorney General, are a poetic reminder of why the New York Senate passed legislation allowing same-sex couples to marry. On Friday, New York became the sixth state in the US to remove discrimination in marriage laws, joining Iowa, Massachusetts, Vermont, Connecticut and New Hampshire.

This decision comes amidst a range of local and international moves in the past month to recognise the civil rights of sexual and gender minorities. In a historic move, the majority of countries in the United Nations Human Rights Council passed a resolution condemning violence and discrimination against people on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity.

Closer to home, hours after the announcement in New York, the Western Australian ALP passed a motion in support of marriage equality at its State conference, joining the chorus of the ALP in Queensland, Tasmania, South Australia, ACT and the Northern Territory.

What remains to be seen, however, is whether these international trends for recognition will shift policy debates in Australia.

After the announcement, Prime Minister Gillard rearticulated that she would do what was in the interests of Australia’s future, as a nation.  The Prime Minister’s rationale for denying same-sex couples access to marriage, however, seems to be based on the past – that it has a “special status” in Australian history and culture.

Anglican Archbishop Peter Jensen has used history to highlight similar concerns, arguing that same-sex marriage “imposes, through social engineering, a newly minted concept of marriage on a community that understands it in quite another way.’‘

What is problematic though, is that both the Prime Minister and Archbishop Jensen’s “historical” arguments effectively obscure the fact that legislation regulating marriage has never been static in Australia.

We only need to reflect over the past century to note that women were once considered contractual objects under marriage laws. Common law immunities enabled marital rape, as women lost their capacity to say no to their husbands once they were married. Such legislation was underpinned by the belief at the time that it was “natural” for women to have children, and therefore essential that their marital responsibilities be confined to domestic care giving.

Correspondingly, if Archbishop Jensen’s religious convictions to avoid the radical “social engineering” of marriage were a consistent theme throughout our history - then women would still be considered property of their husbands, there would be no right to no-fault divorce, and there would be legislative exemptions to discriminate against employing married women.

What this kind of troubling rhetoric gestures to is the problematic confusion of religious marriages with the state regulation of marriage. Faith-based arguments often causally relate marriage with children. While not an unsurprising connection, it has no bearing on the way the current Marriage Act is framed.

If the policy rationale of the Marriage Act were to provide for biological reproduction, then why is this not expressed in the objects of the Act itself?

Perhaps this is because while children may be an important social or religious reason for marrying, it is not an appropriate issue for the Government to mandate. In a secular democracy, that purports to separate Church and State, religious opinion should not dictate the meaning of legislation.

Moreover, with the majority of all marriages in Australia are performed by a civil celebrant, it is clear that there are many married couples who view their relationship in non-religious terms.

Marriage equality is an issue about respect and visibility. As the UN Human Rights council observed in the Universal Periodic Review of Australia, it does not matter if you are a heterosexual or same-sex couple, legislation should confer the same level of relationship recognition.

Many countries in varied regions across the world now permit same-sex marriage: Argentina, Netherlands, and South Africa to name a few. A recent Galaxy Poll highlighted that approximately 80 percent of Australians believe marriage equality is inevitable in Australia, with about 60 percent supporting this change.

So why does the Prime Minister refuse to accept what seems to be changing trend?

This should not be a debate about religious or cultural inheritances - it should be seen as an issue of legislative equality. Permitting couples to marry irrespective of their sex or gender is about ensuring the rights of all Australians citizen to non-discriminatory relationship recognition.

While convincing our Prime Minister is important, the push for marriage equality must have bipartisan support. As the decision in New York exemplifies, support for equality and non-discrimination should not be at the whims of which political party assumes control. Justice should be apolitical.

With the changing international landscape, how can we legitimately claim that we are committed to equality and the “fair go”, while legislation in our own country continues to discriminate?

110 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Erick says:

      06:08am | 27/06/11

      I support equality in marriage. Unfortunately, marriage is currently a form of slavery, in which men become the property of women.

      This becomes evident if divorce occurs, especially if children are involved. The sexist family courts will typically seize children, assets and future income belonging to the man, and hand them over to the woman, without compensation.

      The male will be forced to pay the female, but he will receive no benefits for doing so - not even the right to visit his own children!

      Marriage as it exists today is a violation of human rights, and needs urgent reform.

    • Kevin says:

      07:32am | 27/06/11

      If marriage is slavery, Erick must be Spartacus.

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      07:51am | 27/06/11

      Well, assets will be split taking into account both side’s contribution, current financial position and future needs.

      Don’t fall into the trap thinking the woman automatically gets half the assets no matter what. If the marriage was short, and the woman can be gainfully employed, the man will walk away with everything he brought into the relationship. Child support etc. is a different matter.

    • Michael says:

      07:52am | 27/06/11

      Erick, do you know of any divorced men that have custody of their child/children and live in the marital home, after divorce?

      Do you know if these men pay their ex wives or if their ex wives pay maintenance or child support?

    • acotrel says:

      08:26am | 27/06/11

      @Kevin Did you say ‘smartarse’?

    • KH says:

      08:27am | 27/06/11

      Michael - I do.  She had the executive job, he stayed at home after the child was six months old.  He has full time custody and she pays child support.  So it does happen.

      The question, Erick, is why divorce?  I don’t know any woman who yearns to be a single parent and struggle for the next dozen or more years.  Most women I know want their marriages to be ‘forever’ - of the people I know who have divorced, the reason was pretty good - affairs are the most common, drinking/gambling, or just a pattern being set where he goes to work and plays golf/football on the weekend, while she is is the domestic help that runs around after the children - in that case, she was understandably miserable - he did nothing with the kids when he lived there and spent little time with her, but complained bitterly over custody.  I don’t know anyone who would leave a marriage on a whim - particularly when there are children involved.  Maybe you just can’t see how you contributed to the end of your own marriage (yes, its pretty obvious) - its much easier to blame her for everything, isn’t it.

    • Michael says:

      08:47am | 27/06/11

      Thanks KH well said.

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      08:59am | 27/06/11

      The reason we hear more about the man getting his assets taken is because men generally earn more than the women they are married to.

    • Paul Horn says:

      10:24am | 27/06/11

      Total bullshit KH.

      The Adelaide Advertiser of all things “reported” on a research paper on this subject quite recently that stated unequivocally the overwhelming majority of people who choose to divorce do so because they have “grown apart”. WTF???? In fact violence, drug addiction,alcoholism, infidelity etc accounts for only a tiny percentage of the causes of divorce.

      It is simply a lie and a furphy propogated by sick feminist bleatings that all marriages (heterosexual of course) are characterised by violence, abuse etc etc etc.

      Mr Raj is right though, marriage has gone through massive cultural change especially since the 70’s. Progressive Labour governments have emasculated the tradition starting with no fault divorce, recognition of de facto couples and now the next step in perversity - Gay Marriage rights. 

      The progressives incessant attacks on the institution of marriage has yielded much rotten fruit - massive welfare, increased child abuse, suicide and the list goes on!

      We live in a strange world!

    • KH says:

      01:16pm | 27/06/11

      Paul Horn - what exactly is wrong with ‘grown apart’ as a reason?  Life is way too short to spend it with someone with whom you no longer share any interests, have nothing to talk about with, and don’t want to have any physical contact with.  Who would be happy in that circumstance?  It has nothing to do with modern times either - I believe this has always been the case, but society expected you to stay in a marriage, whether you were happy or not.  Why? Why should anyone be miserable for the rest of their lives?  You only get one life - there aren’t any others coming no matter what the religious nuts say - this is it.  Enjoy it or waste it, its your choice, but don’t be forcing misery on anyone else or begrudge them for pursuing happiness.  I just happen to know a few people who have had serious problems which included alcohol, gambling and cheating.  But I have also known people who just didn’t have anything to say to each other any more.  Its sad, but it happens.  Friendships and relationships drift away for all kinds of reasons - having children doesn’t change this fact.

    • Bev says:

      02:04pm | 27/06/11

      KH says:01:16pm | 27/06/11
      having children doesn’t change this fact.  It does change your responsibilities though.  Your thinking is the part of the problem then I suspect your part of the “me me me” crowd all fun and no responsibility.

    • Bev says:

      02:17pm | 27/06/11

      KH says:01:16pm | 27/06/11

      Paul Horn - what exactly is wrong with ‘grown apart’ as a reason?  Life is way too short to spend it with someone with whom you no longer share any interests,

      A trial in the US where couple verging on the edge were given counciling found that a majority of couples were together 5 years later and happier than they had ever been. Its all about give and take. The feminist/lawyers ensured it did not get on going funding.

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      02:27pm | 27/06/11

      Life’s too short to be monogamous as well.

      The problem is not people drifting apart despite doing everything they can to preserve their marriage. If it just doesn’t work, it just doesn’t work.

      The problem is people using the “drifted apart” excuse because they are not intelligent enough or, simply, too lazy to work out their problems . Plenty of marriages end on a whim.

    • Walking Wallet says:

      02:39pm | 27/06/11

      Erick is totally correct. I used to think maybe he was a bit of a nutter (sorry!) , but I’ve realized as I’ve read some of his stuff over the past few years and and looked at some of the mens rights web sites that he has a real point.

      The more I read his words and then examined my marriage the more I realize that I am just a walking wallet. I also realize that a lot of the time when she is saying she loves me and this and that it is just a manipulation of me for my money. Plus as I am a FIFO worker she is just basically turning the kids against me when I have to work.

      But like Erick said I am now in the trap that if I divorce her I am going to lose my kids and have to pay this woman money she does not deserve. I’m sick of pretending I have to be like her parents and support her for the rest of her life or she holds the threat of taking the kids off me. Like Erick said the courts always side with the woman.

      So, I thank you Erick. I also thank The Punch, as there is no other mainstream media that allows mens voices to be heard, let alone allow someone who is actually informed about the issue the time and space to really change people’s minds.

      Count me as one who has had their blinkers taken off thanks to Erick and the Punch.

      Do you have any advice for me on how to get out of this situation with the best result Erick?

    • Erick says:

      03:17pm | 27/06/11

      @Walking Wallet - Thank you for your comments.

      While I’m an advocate for men’s rights, I’m not a lawyer and I have no personal experience with children or divorce. I suggest that you get in touch with the Men’s Rights Agency, which regularly deals with such matters: http://www.mensrights.com.au/

      Good luck on your journey of liberation.

    • Walking Wallet says:

      03:50pm | 27/06/11

      Thanks a lot Erick.

      I am now a Level 1 member of The Men’s Rights Agency which they say will give me access to a network of solicitors, counsellors, accountants who have a good understanding of matters from a man’s/father’s point of view.

      I wish I had started this years ago. A slave no more!

      You really are a champion.

    • Benevolent Rapscallion says:

      04:03pm | 27/06/11

      @ Bev “Your thinking is the part of the problem then I suspect your part of the “me me me” crowd all fun and no responsibility. “

      I’d hardly consider it responsible to remain in an unhappy marriage and give my children the impression that this is the way it is meant to be. They deserve honesty and a chance at good marriages of their own, instead of learning how to conduct relationships by observing two people living together who no longer want to be together.

    • Erick says:

      04:12pm | 27/06/11

      Again, WW, I wish you good luck. Bear in mind, however, that while I’m aware of the Mens’ Rights Agency, I have never dealt with them or contacted them in any way. I simply take them at their word. If their word is good, please spread it. smile

    • Sylvie says:

      04:43pm | 27/06/11

      Erick is so wise -  if he’s genuine, then he’s simply sensational.

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      05:11pm | 27/06/11

      @ Walking Wallet

      “network of solicitors, counsellors, accountants who have a good understanding of matters from a man’s/father’s point of view”

      You do realise all these people directly profit from divorce, right? Do you really expect good relationship advise from them?

    • Bev says:

      06:48pm | 27/06/11

      Thomas Anderson says:05:11pm | 27/06/11

      You do realise all these people directly profit from divorce, right? Do you really expect good relationship advise from them?

      They do profit but there are some who do understand the corruption of the family court and how to counter it and do really do the best they can for men while not extracting $$$$$.

    • Bev says:

      07:31pm | 27/06/11

      Benevolent Rapscallion says:04:03pm | 27/06/11
      I’d hardly consider it responsible to remain in an unhappy marriage and give my children the impression that this is the way it is meant to be. They deserve honesty and a chance at good marriages of their own,
      Having reached an age where I can be a part time grey nomad I can tell you you are misguided. I agree if there is serious discord the best thing is divorce.  Many people I meet in our travels will tell that despite incompatabilities earlier on they have stuck it out and gone on to find common ground and are genuinely happy together.  If you talk to many young adults they are also appreciative of the sacrifices their parents have made despite knowing as teenagers there is discord. Better that than a divorce and the misery it brings they say.  Further studies tell us that children from intact homes are more likely to go on to successful marriages than children from broken homes.

    • Paul Horn says:

      09:02pm | 27/06/11

      You know what KH your extreme ignorance is astounding. Why is it that second and third marriages fare far worse than first marriages in the divorce statistics? Look it up my man and weep!

      Progressive logic would suggest that those who have been through an unsuccessful first marriage would be better equipped and prepared to enter their next marriage with greater success! But not so! Therefore one would have to conclude that it is the attitude of the person entering the marriage that is the biggest problem not the typically crap arguments about “growing apart”. Marriage takes work, I should know as I have been quite happily??? married for fifteen years.
      But for men anyway there are cardinal rules that should be heeded when considering a prospective (female) mates suitability for the state of matrimony. I could write a book and a simple trade off analysis but that is a different story!

      Bottom lime is a successful marriage has nothing to do with how exciting your partner is or how stimulating the conversation but how committed each person is to the relationship and the importance they place on their vows.

      The true meaning of marriage has little to do with the exclusive indulgent relationship between two people but everything to do with two people subsuming their selfish wants to the greater community good. This is something all other cultures understand but individualistic feminist / Hollywood / media riven Western Society treats with utter contempt!!!

      I hope this helps you think a little more clearly!

    • Walking Wallet says:

      09:51pm | 27/06/11

      @Thomas Anderson
      I don’t need relationship advice mate. I need unrelationship advice.

      I’ve been to marriage counseling. We went because it was hard on her that I had to leave my family for 3 weeks at a time, work 12 hours a day, and live in a donga with nothing to do at night but stare blankly at DVDs.

      Oh yeah, then it was hard on her that I was at home for a week after 3 week on. Never mind I was too shagged out to want to go out socializing, I had to or she’d spit the dummy. All I wanted to do was hang out with my girls, not swan around to movies (I’ve seen enough) or go to concerts played by has-beens of 20 years ago.

      Yep, it was hard on her while I was busting my b…s on the Gorgon and she was sitting at home and having to take the girls to dancing and sport 3 times a week.

      Guess what was harder on her? When I said to the counselor “Ok mate, I’ll quit then, live back down in Perth and take a 75% pay cut”. For some reason me not being a FIFO worker was harder on her than being one.

      And guess whose side the counselor took? Erick has this right. I’m a slave pure and simple mate.

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      01:08pm | 28/06/11

      Your call in the end. I dunno, if you really think you can find a woman out there who will understand all your manly quirks and desires, go for it. Just remember that nobody’s perfect and there will always be things you dislike about your partner.

    • JohnB says:

      07:05am | 27/06/11

      Oh man, can we just get this stuff passed so we can move on. Why would anyone care who other people want to sleep with or marry? These idiots opposing this legislation are affecting everything everything else Australia does.

    • acotrel says:

      07:41am | 27/06/11

      It seems to be mainly the religous who oppose gay marriage.  But then I suppose they have good reason to be homophobic!

    • Blazes says:

      09:17am | 27/06/11

      acotrel “It seems to be mainly the religous who oppose gay marriage.  But then I suppose they have good reason to be homophobic!”

      What rubbish! What about all the atheists (eg Julia Gillard” and gays (eg Christopher Pearson) who oppose gay marriage?

      If the case for gay marriage was actually sensible, then you wouldn’t have to smear everyone who disagrees with you.

    • acotrel says:

      10:06am | 27/06/11

      @Blazes I’d like to hear a well constructed argument from you as to why gays should have the same rights to a marriage contract as other Australians.  They also have property and assets considerations to manage, just like the rest of us.  I suggest your objection to gay marriage is based on emotion, you are simply protecting your own backside?

    • Observer says:

      10:10am | 27/06/11

      Christopher Pearson is a right wing Catholic and non-practicing homosexual for religious reasons- hardly a mainstream gay perspective.

      The only gays that I know of who oppose same-sex marriage come from the extreme left fringe of the gay community or the extreme right.

    • Blazes says:

      10:34am | 27/06/11

      @acrotel, the argument about gay marriage is not purely around gay rights, and whether you think gays should have a “right” to marry or not. Marriage laws are fundamentally a question of what’s best for society rather than a question of individual rights.

      The current definition of marriage is a recognition of the communal significance of the physical nature of hetreosexual relationships, i.e. organic bodily union, through coitus, as inherently linked to procreation and part of the natural cycle of life.

      Now, if don’t accept that procreation is linked to marriage, then there are no logical reasons whatsoever as to why marriage should be a sexual relationship (rather than a non-sexual relationship, such as between two siblings), a relationship between two people (as opposed to three or more in a polygamous relationship), or a legally recognised and regulated relationship (since other forms of friendship aren’t legally recognised or regulated). Supporters of gay marriage have always failed to provide a coherent definition of marriage which explains these restrictions. The current definition is the only coherent, logical definition of marriage.

      @Observer, I would have thought that all gays have equal rights to have their opinions heard - it is unfair to group them all in together. Very hypocritical given you are so big on equality. My point is that if traditional marriage was really homophobic then all gays would oppose it, which is not the case.

    • acotrel says:

      07:33pm | 27/06/11

      @Blazes
      ‘The current definition of marriage is a recognition of the communal significance of the physical nature of hetreosexual relationships, i.e. organic bodily union, through coitus, as inherently linked to procreation and part of the natural cycle of life. ‘

      What legislation has that definition included in it?  Or did you just make that up, like the rest of the religous fairy stories?  Where is it wriiten that coitus must be ‘inherently linked to procreation’?  I didn’t hear that spelled out when I got married.  Perhaps we need to read the victims their rights when they get married? Erick would probably agree with that!

    • Fiddler says:

      08:31am | 27/06/11

      Hell, I think we are doing gays a favour by not allowing them to get married. Been there, done that, been through the race to the bottom that is family court. Had a reasonable magistrate but still cost me an inordinate amount of both time and money, while my child support payments were being used to fund my exes lifestyle, certainly not on the kids. Although the gays do have something right. In the bum, no babies.
      If they seriously want to be able to get married let them, they’ll soon realise it’s no different to living together

    • LeonT says:

      09:10am | 27/06/11

      “If they seriously want to be able to get married let them, they’ll soon realise it’s no different to living together”

      It is when it comes to immigration, or when one partner is in hospital or a whole bunch of other situations that most people don’t consider.

    • Adam Diver says:

      02:47pm | 27/06/11

      The argument always confuses me.

      Do gays want just the same legal rights as “marriage”

      or do they feel they are being discriminated against in one of societies traditions which they can not participate?

      The first seems obvious the second seems petty

    • Markus says:

      04:29pm | 27/06/11

      “or do they feel they are being discriminated against in one of societies traditions which they can not participate?”

      After being bombarded with the same whine week after week (and one wasn’t enough for today, we got to have two!), it seriously comes off sounding as patheticly immature and petty as demanding a smartphone, and then whinging that you got an HTC instead of an iPhone.

    • Matt says:

      09:35am | 27/06/11

      The whole argument is surrounded in hypocrisy.. Julia is being a hypocrite by citing the religious reasons of denying same sex marriage and the church is being hypocritical in persecuting homosexuals and our fight for equality.  There is no logical argument against changing the description of marriage in the Act.  Unless Julia can come up with a rational, logical, non-religious reason as to why they won’t allow same sex rights, then she will again be called out for lying.  After all she did say ‘Prime Minister Gillard rearticulated that she would do what was in the interests of Australia’s future, as a nation.’ - depending which poll you’re looking at there’s 60-75% interest in allowing equal rights.

    • Tim says:

      09:41am | 27/06/11

      So I assume by your fight for “Equality” that you are also in favour of polygamous or incestuous marriages?
      Or are some people more Equal than others?

    • bec says:

      09:44am | 27/06/11

      There is no logical argument against it. You’re right. The parallels to bestiality, incest, paedophilia or bigamy are logically retarded at best and hateful at worst, and more to the point, there is no legal comparison between any of them. Homosexuality is legal, the others are not, and current demographic consensus is actually harsher on all of those things now than at any time in history. Logistically, it is simple in a way that allowing polygamous marriages would absolutely not be (you try working out inheritance and tax on *that* one), and it already runs in accordance with Australian contract law.

      I defy anyone to tell me how their straight marriage would be undermined by gay people being allowed to marry. You show me a marriage that would be weakened, and I will show you a marriage that was too shitty and immature to have occurred in the first place.

    • Matt says:

      10:08am | 27/06/11

      Tim the answer to your question is in bec’s comment… I won’t waste my breath.

    • Paul Horn says:

      10:38am | 27/06/11

      You really are one mixed up individual Bec. All the reasons you advance for homosexual marriage are exactly the same reasons for allowing bestiality or polygamy.

      I defy you to advance one shred of evidence to support how a man having carnal relations with his pet pig undermines my marriage!!! Stupid idiotic argument on your part.  Even better how does a polygamous relationship “undermine” my monogamous relationship using your twisted logic? 

      And as for your pathetic argument relating to tax and inheritance law as regards polygamous marriages I note with disdain that a court awarded costs to a “mistress” of a wealthy businessman after he ended the relationship because she was “led” to believe that he made a promise a support her for the remainder of her life. Looks like the legal system is getting it’s head around bigamy to me Bec.

      Again you fail - miserably!!!

    • RyaN says:

      10:43am | 27/06/11

      @bec: was homosexuality always legal?

    • Tim says:

      10:47am | 27/06/11

      Bec,
      you do realise that up until recently homosexual sex was also illegal?
      And as you are so keen on changing laws, surely to be consistent you realise that changing the laws against polygamy or incest would be just as easy as changing the marriage act.
      As for a logistical reason. Puhleaase. Surely Equality is more important than that? It’s the principle right?
      Besides, the easiest logistical thing to do is not change anything at all.
      Matt,
      so you have no logical response? It’s funny when people ask for logical reasons then go running when one is given.

    • Matt says:

      11:26am | 27/06/11

      Paul, as her comment said, there is no LOGICAL argument against it.. All you seem to be able to put forward is stupid crap about screwing animals.  We’re talking about the equal rights issue, not whether you can marry a pig or not.

      Polygamy is recognised in Australia, not performed, but recognised and there are polygamous families in Australia.  So, I guess it’s YOU who fails, not bec… You also managed to insult her, yet didn’t answer her question - interesting that…

      Ryan, homosexuality has always been legal, sodomy was illegal - but for heterosexuals too, voting for women and the indigenous were also illegal.. What’s your point?

    • Matt says:

      11:57am | 27/06/11

      Aww, did I upset you by not answering Tim..  Ok, here’s an answer -
      Incest is illegal.  Polygamy is recognised (not performed) in Australia.

      And fyi - sodomy was illegal, including heterosexual sodomy and was repealed in 1975.. Not really recent though is it?

    • Tim says:

      12:09pm | 27/06/11

      That’s it Matt?
      It’s illegal? I was expecting better.
      You know what else is illegal? Gay marriage.
      I’m sure you’ll support the upholding of the law.

    • mike j says:

      12:11pm | 27/06/11

      Gay partnerships are anti-evolutionary, contribute nothing to the gene pool, generally aren’t involved in rearing future members of society and, as such, don’t deserve the same social recognition as heterosexual partnerships.

      Also, as homosexuality is partially a learned behaviour, in the context of the above, it shouldn’t be actively encouraged or promoted as being an ‘equal’ lifestyle.

      How’s that for a rational, logical, non-religious argument?

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      12:18pm | 27/06/11

      @ Matt

      All YOU seem to put forward is some stupid crap about men screwing men.

    • Matt says:

      12:57pm | 27/06/11

      *clap clap*  well done guys, if the best you can come up with is marrying a chair, a pig or your sister you’ve just about proved my comment right - there is no LOGICAL argument against equal rights.

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      01:08pm | 27/06/11

      But of course, things are only logical when they support your own view point aren’t they? wink

    • Zaf says:

      02:28pm | 27/06/11

      [I defy you to advance one shred of evidence to support how a man having carnal relations with his pet pig undermines my marriage!!!]

      Unless you’re that man, it wouldn’t.  But it IS unkind to the pig, and for that reason should remain illegal. 

      [how does a polygamous relationship “undermine” my monogamous relationship]

      Again, it wouldn’t, but it might impinge on the right of women to be treated equally (oh! again that word!) to men - and hence be incompatible with Australian law.

      Everything society does is not necessarily for the purpose of supporting your marriage vows.  Why should it be?

    • bec says:

      02:59pm | 27/06/11

      Well, on the one hand you’re right, Tim - homosexuality was once illegal. However if we look at the current tide of public opinion with regards to legality, it has gone in entirely the opposite direction to paedophilia and incest. If democracy plays any role in legislation (although I don’t necessarily think it should in the case of human rights, lest you have tyranny of the majority), then it would acknowledge the improbability of unpopular social taboos being legalised.

      Paul Horn, as much as everybody thinks you’re a blithering idiot on here, I will acknowledge your originality of thought. Who would have thought that gay human beings could legally be compared to animals in the slightest? After all, we are totes allowed to eat humans, use their skin for clothing, and we certainly do not afford them any legal rights to suffrage, paid employment or basic protections. You truly are an independent thinker.

    • Sheldon says:

      03:34pm | 27/06/11

      Yes Incest is illegal but so was homosexuality 25 years ago

    • mike j says:

      05:21pm | 27/06/11

      bec. Typical lightweight feminist. All outrage and defiance until she encounters an argument she can’t subsume into her delusional alternate reality.

      You should have just gone MIA like Matt.

    • GlendaSings says:

      05:34pm | 27/06/11

      Mike, you said “Gay partnerships are anti-evolutionary, contribute nothing to the gene pool, generally aren’t involved in rearing future members of society and, as such, don’t deserve the same social recognition as heterosexual partnerships.” You ridiculously link marriage and procreation as necessary partners.

      That would be fine if the only purpose of marriage was procreation. However, there are many heterosexual marriages that do not produce children. Sometimes it’s intentional, where the couple chooses not to have children. Others are between people who want kids but turn out to be infertile. Heterosexual couples in their 70s and older are still permitted to marry even though they obviously will not be procreating. Should these people be denied the right to marry? Or forced to divorce when they find out they can’t have kids? Of course not. We allow non-procreating heterosexuals to marry, so your argument seems kinda pointless.

      You’re also ignoring the fact that large number of gay people have children, the vast majority conceived either through donor or from a previous heterosexual relationship. Procreating and bringing up kids. In a house, in the ‘burbs. Helping with homework and driving the kids to soccer practice.

      And of course there are all those hetero’s out there successfully procreating away without a marriage certificate. Ten points for effort, but let’s try a more logical argument.

    • bec says:

      06:01pm | 27/06/11

      Okay mike, the onus is on you to point out how my logic is flawed. You can’t just say there’s something wrong with my thinking without pointing out what it is.

      Typical lightweight dipshit window-licking attitudes. Fuck. If you don’t want to share your toys or you’re immature enough to be skeeved by gay couples, go ahead and say it.

    • mike j says:

      06:14pm | 27/06/11

      Hi GlendaSings.

      “That would be fine if the only purpose of marriage was procreation.”

      It is.

      “However, there are many heterosexual marriages that do not produce children.”

      No homosexual partnerships produce children.

      “You’re also ignoring the fact that large number of gay people have children”

      All genetically ‘adopted’ by at least one partner.

      Also, you didn’t cover homosexuality being a learned behaviour.

    • mike j says:

      06:23pm | 27/06/11

      Actually, bec, I was ‘inviting’ you to respond to my post, which you seem to have conveniently missed. Since you initially said “There is no logical argument against [gay marriage]”, I believe the onus is on you to defend your statement.

      “I defy anyone to tell me how their straight marriage would be undermined by gay people being allowed to marry” is a straw man, and I won’t touch it.

      But I’m sure you’ll be happy to debate your first (simpler and less prejudicial) position.

    • Zaf says:

      06:58pm | 27/06/11

      @ Mike

      [However, there are many heterosexual marriages that do not produce children.]
      [No homosexual partnerships produce children.]

      So should ALL barren couples be banned from marrying?  Currently you’re only arguing that gay couples should be banned from marrying because they don’t producue children,  What about the non-gay couples that don’t produce children?  Ban them from marrying too?  If not, why not?

      [Also, you didn’t cover homosexuality being a learned behaviour. ]

      Yup, that’s what they teach you in the Navy.  Nicely spotted.  Heterosexuality is taught in the Army, while the Air Force just focuses on being all round delicious (so perhaps bisexuality?).

      Flawlessly spotted.  Just beautiful.

    • mike j says:

      07:19pm | 27/06/11

      Zaf, the answers to your first set of deliberately obtuse questions are adequately covered elsewhere, and I’m not going to lower myself.

      The second bit I didn’t even understand.

    • Matt says:

      09:32pm | 27/06/11

      I’m not MIA mike j, I do have to earn a living though.. I shouldn’t answer you though simply because I said logical - your answer is purely made up and based on your own bias or bigotry.. whatever you want to call it.  I could do exactly the same -
      Firstly, how are we anti-evolutionary?  Because we don’t have kids? I know several same sex couples raising children, there are many more around Australia. If I was making things up I could argue we’re pro-evolutionary ie. in an over populated world we can still obtain pleasure without the need to procreate, which in this day and age is purely societal.  Don’t contribute to gene pool?  Do people like you? Or do people like you pollute it for the rest.  Do the heterosexual junkies down the road?  Or the long-term heterosexual dole bludgers, or are their contributions ok because they’re hetero?  Also, do you know the origin of every sperm sample given, I’d win money on a bet some are from homosexuals?  Don’t get the same recognition because we don’t raise kids?  Then you must also think the same of infertile heterosexual couples, or heterosexual couples that are married but decide to not have children, yet they are married.. How does that work for your logic? And as I said before, some homosexuals do raise kids. 

      How’s that for a rational, logical, non-religious argument? - Pretty crap actually mike j….  Your arguing for the sake of arguing is pathetic and childish, I’m not interested.

    • Zaf says:

      10:40pm | 27/06/11

      @ Mike

      [the answers to your first set of deliberately obtuse questions are adequately covered elsewhere, and I’m not going to lower myself.]

      Won’t answer or can’t?  Looks like can’t.

      [The second bit I didn’t even understand.]

      Never mind.  Focus on answering the first part.

      Peace

    • bec says:

      07:42am | 28/06/11

      Okay sorry. Out for a fancy birthday dinner. So let’s respond to how gay marriage is not like those other things - incest, polygamy, bestiality and paedophilia.

      Incest: at present in Australian marriage law, marriage is prohibited between siblings and direct descendants (parents, grandparents). This includes step-parents and step-siblings. Some would argue why bothering to include the steps in the ban? I’d agree provisionally, especially with the step-siblings, but obviously those are bans in place for good reason. Firstly, if you went under the model of marriage as an institution for childbearing, these are the degrees of relationship that would have the highest rate of birth defects and highest risk of transmitting genetic diseases. But if you were not to go via this route, you could especially argue that with parent/child marriage cases you run the risk of exacerbating long-standing child abuse or providing an avenue for abusers to legitimise their relationships. Being that laws against child abuse have only strengthened over the last 20-30 years, it’s extremely improbable that such a law would ever be considered. As it stands, gay people who don’t share a degree of unacceptable relatedness deserve the same chance as straight people with the same degree. With regards to sibling marriage… eh, I have no real relationship with either of my siblings so I find it entirely incomprehensible. I am sure there is the tiniest minority of people who might. If they’re consenting and can prove they’re infertile, why bother stopping them? (And if you consider cousins and aunts/uncles incest, they’re already legal anyway.)

      Bigamy/polygamy: Is a tricky barrel of worms for a whole lot of reasons. One is the propensity for fraud: no matter how legal it is, many people are going to insist that their partner stays monogamous, and I think people should get that basic right to determine the nature of the marriage they are in. Even if it doesn’t involve lying to two separate families and then have them both basically fucked over come death and inheritance, you still have the matter of working out taxes, inheritance rules, end-of-life decisions and citizenship. Gay marriage is not like this because it could be as simple as changing the basic wording from “husband and wife” to “spouse 1 and spouse 2” and doesn’t involve the same logistical nightmare (or potential for fraud and family abandonment) that polygamy has.

      Bestiality - has been described elsewhere, suffice to say if you are at all convinced that animals are party to the same rights and privileges as people, and that they’re able to sign contracts, then you’re probably dumb enough to be *having* sex with your siblings. Likening human beings to animals who are not of the same intellectual, societal and emotional capacities is insulting.

      Paedophilia: come on, dude. Not remotely close. It might have been the societal trend for women to marry and have kids very young, but this is one particular social movement that has become *more* restrictive over time, and for good reason. The more we learn about children and childhood development, the more reason we have to safeguard them from physical and financial abuse. Even looking at the arbitrariness of assigning an age like 18 for marriage takes into account that it legally protects young people who don’t have the same legal rights as others. Gay relationships between two consenting adults and a relationship between an adult and an obvious minor are two completely different things, and to liken them insults the intelligence of the two adults in the gay relationship.

      Legally and morally, one of these things is not like the others. I do not see why I need to stand in the way of two law-abiding people of sound mind who are above the age of consent from getting married when the only thing standing in their way of legality is gender. Given that the fix is extremely straight-forward in a manner that the above would not be (and that the tide of public opinion is supportive in a manner that the above would not be) it’s about time we stopped dicking around on the matter.

    • mike j says:

      02:41pm | 28/06/11

      Hi Matt. Maybe you should have gone MIA like bec?

      “I know several same sex couples raising children”

      Other people’s children.

      “I could argue we’re pro-evolutionary ie. in an over populated world we can still obtain pleasure without the need to procreate”

      I like that. Wrong, though.

      “infertile heterosexual couples” (+Zaf)

      Are the exception to the rule. Infertile homosexual couples are the rule.

      You asked for a rational, logical, non-religious argument, and you got one.

      “Your arguing for the sake of arguing is pathetic and childish”

      Maybe. But so is the need for homos to own the word ‘marriage’.

      See how that works?

    • Matt says:

      08:26pm | 28/06/11

      Whatever mike j - your final comment has proved the childish and pathetic tag, as you admitted yourself.. Same sex couples don’t want to OWN the word marriage, sharing would be good, as would be the equal rights associated, but apparantely that’s too much for some people to think about logically. 

      My original comment was politically based, which you didn’t mention once.  As I said, you’re more interested in arguing for the sake of arguing.  I’ve known fully well you’re homophobic, as you’ve admitted on Bolt’s blog previously, so there’s no point arguing with you.  Your last comment has been answered previously before, you’re just going in circles now -and since your issue is with homosexuals or homosexual behaviour and you can’t seem to get around that, I’m gonna leave you to it…

    • mike j says:

      01:49pm | 29/06/11

      “I’ve known fully well you’re homophobic, as you’ve admitted on Bolt’s blog previously, so there’s no point arguing with you.”

      Fuck you, idiot. I’ve never posted on Bolt’s blog in my entire life, so you can shove your bullshit accusations of ‘homophobia’ up your arse.

      And fuck you, too, The Punch. I can’t use the words ‘bum sex’ on this site, but your apologist leftie minions are allowed commit libel and fling about fictional allegations of ‘homophobia’ and anti-Semitism whenever they feel like they’re losing an argument.

      THE PUNCH: Australia’s worst double standards

    • John says:

      10:25am | 27/06/11

      Who is funding and prompting gay marriage? I suspect Marxist groups are funding gay marriage, in order to weaken christian values and the family. Why is that gay marriage becomes an issue all of a sudden? In Australia, US at the same time??? Why is that the media and the so called protesters seem to work cohesively? What will happen to out society? Turning into a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah when angels walk the street’s and the same sex lusts after them? These idea’s of getting sexuality our in society, is destructive, as seed’s, plants idea’s into people minds and enslaves them into what ever sexuality they are into. We end turning into sexually deviant society. Sexuality it’s self, should be left in the closet, sex is just bonus to marriage. Thats the way it should be seen, anything else is a weakness of character.

    • Paul Horn says:

      11:04am | 27/06/11

      Spot on John. Homosexuality is a cause celebre in media circles because many many within the media are avid participants!

      In fact the representation of homosexual practice to which we are exposed in the media is disproportionate to what we experience in real life. It is an agenda John driven by the Hollywood acolytes and academic /political leftist inner city living progressives!

    • Justin says:

      11:23am | 27/06/11

      Where’s the tower where’s the gun? Where’s the tower where’s the gun? Does my penis make me a bad boy?

    • Dementer says:

      10:49am | 27/06/11

      I agree that marriage is a basic human right and some thing of all genders should have access to under the law. But the reform does not go far enough we also need to change the law to allow multiple marriage partners in one whole relationship and also allow marriages of non - sexual relationship.

    • Paul Horn says:

      10:00pm | 27/06/11

      Hallelujah to you Dementer! You have truly and I mean truly hit the nail on the head!!!! Beautiful just absolutely beautiful!!

      So friends of the same sex or multiple sexes or opposite sex should have the right to marry! If we can accept homosexuality as a valid cause celebre then we should be able to marry our pets even if we have no sexual desire towards them. I mean animals do not consent to becoming pets so what the hell should be wrong with marrying them?

      This can only be beneficial as it confers greater rights to the animal than being simply relegated to the low life status of “Pet”!!!

      What animal would refuse!!!!

    • Paul Horn says:

      10:50am | 27/06/11

      Homosexuality is a disease nothing less and nothing more! It is no different to cancer.

      Why would nature, Gaia Earth Mother, evolution whatever expend all that effort in creating life and choose the sexual act as its means of propogation only to then create homosexuality as a “natural” variation? A behaviour that frustrates the very purpose for which sex was created in the first place? 

      You people advocating that homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality are no different to fools screaming and shouting that cancer patients are as naturally healthy as Olympic Athletes!!

      Utter sheer stupidity. Why just why do you promote such perversion and degeneracy???

    • Lapun says:

      11:23am | 27/06/11

      Who’s this Nutter?  With a name like his I wouldn’t expect him to think masturbation was also frustrating to the purpose of creation.  Although now I’m lapun, I must own to considerable frustration with the practice!

    • Lapun says:

      11:33am | 27/06/11

      Now I’ve got it!  There is a typo in the first name of the author.  Obviously should have been P.U.L.L. instead of Paul!

    • Paul Horn says:

      11:59am | 27/06/11

      And guerss what my middle name if “My” idiot!

      Typically leftist drone. Play the man not the argument.

      I await your logically constructed rebuttal but won’t hold my breath!

    • LeonT says:

      12:12pm | 27/06/11

      Paul, you have no argument. This is why people ‘play the man’ with you.

      Also you have an odd fascination with bestiality.

    • Erick says:

      03:25pm | 27/06/11

      @DT - Rape is also natural in animals. Does that mean rape should be legal and socially acceptable?

    • Cin says:

      03:28pm | 27/06/11

      Homophobia is the disease - What a goose! YES…A GOOSE!!

    • Yuri says:

      04:11pm | 27/06/11

      @DT

      Rape, murder, incest, slavery and cannibalism all occur in nature - so these should be legal too by that logic.

    • ladybuglauren says:

      05:07pm | 27/06/11

      Ah I see what you all did there, forwarded the argument that something wasn’t ‘natural’ and when it was rebuffed and shown to be untrue, jumped up and down about how other natural behaviours are illegal, so if people claim homosexuality is natural, it means they think rape should be legal!

      Well played, to the unsuspecting observer you may have almost looked like you had a point…

    • bec says:

      07:19am | 28/06/11

      Erick, we know that as an MRA you like to rape people. wink You don’t need to keep finding justifications there.

      (See what I did there??? BTW, sarcasm.)

    • Cam says:

      04:35pm | 01/07/11

      @ Yuri. The difference is consent.

    • Clancy says:

      08:28pm | 01/07/11

      Let it go Paul Horn. You are pathetic. Why don’t you lube up a crucifix or bible and shove it right up your homophobic dickhole.

    • Lapun says:

      12:21pm | 27/06/11

      Leftist?    I was handing out How-to-vote cards for Bob Menzies at the age of 10!  And I guerss my allegiance if still to the right!

    • Dan the critic (and truth teller) says:

      12:45pm | 27/06/11

      Wow, I forgot that when there is a positive “Gay Marriage” vote anywhere in the world,  the gay lobby take it upon themselves to flood the airwaves with this excellent outcome. The Punch.com.au normally only airs one episode of “I’m Gay therefore I deserve to get married” but this week it has aired a bonus episode.

      Unfortunately both episodes fail in the excitement stakes. Here is my other review -

      Hhhhmmm….I don’t know if I liked this weeks episode of “I’m Gay therefore I deserve to get married (IGTIDTGM)” on ThePunch.com.au.
      Sure it has the usual whining and self delusion that I have come to expect, but this one lacked something. Maybe the writers are running out of puff from being overworked. It must be hard toil to keep yelling the same old self promoting arguements.

      I get a sense that the whole “IGTIDTGM” series is starting to get stale with mainstream viewers. Each episode is basically a re-run of the previous episode. It’s even losing ratings with some of the real “Gay” people who are starting to find all this self-interested whining a little embarassing.

      Rating - 2.5 stars   (only watch it if you havn’t seen the others)

    • sludger says:

      01:10pm | 27/06/11

      Well, I am married, but when we married I never intended to have children and we have not done so.  So, does this mean I should never have married the woman?  It seems to me people opposed to gay marriage are saying the only reason to marry is to procreate.  Therefore I must be an evil sinner for not having rug rats.  I am also a committed Christian.  Whoops, must be even worse, a Christian not spreading the seed.  Why shouldn’t gays marry?  Okay, I can see arguments for not in a church - depending on the denomination etc - but that is a whole other argument.  As is written here, more people are married by celebrants than priests, so why shouldn’t gays?  As for people like Paul Horn, if you don’t like what they do—- don’t bloody watch it!  I don’t as it ain’t my thing. And seriously, what is it with you and animals?  Yuk!  And just as a side bar, what the hell is Gillard on about?  Reeks of hypocrisy to me.  So get married and be like the rest of us, poor and stressed but legally with the one we love.  And that would be great when it is time to sort out insurances, inheritances etc which are one big mess for gays as it stands.

    • Ben says:

      01:34pm | 27/06/11

      Where is the other side of the story?

    • Lesley Laurel says:

      01:44pm | 27/06/11

      When it comes to marriage, do you become gay or gray over time ?

    • Outraged says:

      04:07pm | 27/06/11

      It is pretty rich of this author to criticize Australia’s policy on Gay Marriage, when India has APPALING Human Rights issues in regards to LGBT communities. Indian gays WISH their biggest concern was walking down the aisle with their latest f*ckbuddy…

      Look in your own backyard first, mate!

    • LeonT says:

      06:52pm | 27/06/11

      Sorry, how is India relevant to this discussion?

      A quick Google search reveals that Senthorun was born in Sri Lanka and YouTube shows me that his accent is thoroughly Australian. It would seem he is looking at his backyard with this article, you racist.

    • Outraged says:

      07:54pm | 27/06/11

      Sri Lankan…Indian…whatever. Senthorun should count his lucky stars he lives in a country that doesn’t stone him to death for his “lifestyle choice”.

    • MichaelM says:

      11:44am | 28/06/11

      Outraged, your ignorance would be hilarious if it wasn’t tragic.

    • Kika says:

      01:51pm | 28/06/11

      Where does it say he is Sri Lankan? With a name like Raj you would assume he is Tamil but Senthorun doesn’t appear to be a Tamil name .I did a google search = nada. I think you are trolling.
      And besides being gay in Sri Lanka isn’t exactly a walk in the park either.

    • Outraged says:

      02:23pm | 28/06/11

      MichaelM: I am a gay guy myself…but I am sick to death of Senthorun constantly bagging out Australia. Just look at all his previous articles, every SINGLE one is about “It’s so hard being a gay in Australia!!”.

      It is getting tiresome and self-indulgent. It honestly isn’t as “terrible” as Raj makes it out to be. Gay Marriage is a First-World problem. If he is so upset about how “bad” he is treated in Australia, then he should move to Sri Lanka or Afghanistan or some other country.

      I don’t want everyone to get the impression that gays in Australia are all whining, victims like Raj!

    • Todd Hammond says:

      04:23pm | 01/07/11

      Look mate, your obviously a white gay guy who probably only has white gay friends and lives in the inner west so is therefore completely ignorant to what actually to happens to lgbt’s who live outside Oxford St and the Inner West. Senthorun Raj is the Senior Policy Advisor to the G&L Rights Lobby in NSW, so its his job to talk about issues concerning lgbt’s affecting Australians. Is it that he’s the main voice for our issues or that he’s Sri Lankan in origin and talking about Australian issues? Clearly if he’s talking about things happening, that says there are alot of things in Australia that still need fixing here! And how dare you make stereotypes on people in other countries when you most likely have never been there and don’t know anyone there!

    • Yawn says:

      04:36pm | 27/06/11

      Monty Python should do a movie about this. Will you be wusband and hife? Which is which? It’s all just too silly to take seriously. Stick to legally recognised de-facto partnerships or civil unions or whatever and sort out the legal issues if there still are any. You’re like 2% of the population guys. Chill. Srsly.

    • Tim says:

      07:09am | 02/07/11

      I don’t think the people who’s lives you are talking about find it silly. It’s easy to be dismissive of someone else’s feelings when it’s not you who is affected. I guess we shouldn’t worry about anyone who only makes up a small percentage of the population? Deaf people - not worth helping out, they should just chill and get over it. People in a wheelchair? Seriously guys, don’t bug us with your silly problems.

    • stephen says:

      06:53pm | 27/06/11

      With gay marriage will come the want to bring up children, and will they get the security and role-models they need, (and what will girls use here : dolls can only become so real) to protect themselves from the promiscuousness which is apparent in homosexual relationships ?
      (A point I’m only guessing at here, and I’m retreating to a common stereotype and will retract it if anyone has contrary evidence.)
      This may be a dilemma socially, but I think the legal rights of children will taken for granted unless a whole draft of Laws, (and I’ll bet the subsequent legislation will be a moral and psychological nightmare) will be enacted.
      There’s got to be problems ahead for offspring of such a union.
      I don’t think it’s worth it.

    • AJ says:

      12:19pm | 28/06/11

      I’m pretty sure plenty of same-sex couples are already raising children (and have been for many of years), whether those children are the result of a previous heterosexual relationship, IVF or surrogacy. 

      Same-sex couples are currently permitted to be foster parents in most, if not all, States and Territories of Australia.  If same-sex couples are deemed appropriate parents for the severely disadvantaged children who end up in foster care (and who arguably need the very best parenting available), then why shouldn’t they also be permitted to adopt (even if one ignores the fact that there is an extremely limited number of Australian-born children placed for adoption each year and intercountry adoption is subject to the requirements of the individual country, so if China or Vietnam does not permit same-sex couples to adopt, then they will not be able to do so anyway).

      As for role models, I’m pretty sure gays and lebians don’t limit their friends and family members to people of the same gender. I’m also pretty sure that they wouldn’t insist that their child’s kindergarten, primary or high school teacher is also the same gender as the parents.

      As for the nonsense about promiscuity, given the high rate of infidelity within married couples, is it really a solid argument against permitting same sex couples to marry? I know gay friends who have been together in a monogamous relationship for 10 years and other gay friends who seem to have a different partner every few weeks. I have also straight friends who have been together in a monogamous relationship for 10 years and other straight friends who have a different partner every few weeks. For every George Michael there is a Arnold Schwarzenegger. Similarly, for every John Howard there is a Neil Patrick Harris.

    • Servaas says:

      11:39pm | 27/06/11

      Well. who decides what is just and what not? No one is apparently allowed to bring their individual beliefs to the table which leaves the decision in the hands of the (usually) left-leaning folk to tell the rest of us what is good and what isn’t. This is absolute rubbish.

    • Peter says:

      11:40am | 28/06/11

      I have yet to hear from the gay lobby exactly why they want to marry.  Just what is so important about the word “marriage” and “marry” that they want it so much? In fact, the ONLY justification I have heard for all this hoopla and hand wringing is something along the lines of “You have it, so I have to have it too” - like a petulant toddler wanting anything someone else has merely because the someone else has it.

    • Gavin Hodge says:

      12:05pm | 28/06/11

      How about things like kinship, immigration status, property entitlements etc. None of those are protected without marriage.

    • Kika says:

      01:53pm | 28/06/11

      Because “here and queer” doesn’t cut the mustard anymore.

    • The Avenger says:

      04:36pm | 01/07/11

      equal rights equated to a petulant toddler wanting something. *rolls eyes*

    • MichaelM says:

      12:01pm | 28/06/11

      Julia Gillard is only one person - Leader of the Nation and Leader of the ALP. Her stance on gay marriage is a reflection of ALP policy. This policy is debated on at every ALP National Conference and ultimately voted on by the membership. The membership to date has voted against the motion. So really, Julia Gillard must take the position of the ALP membership and represent the current policy at national level. A change in party policy is the only thing that can change the Government’s position on it.

    • Kika says:

      02:03pm | 28/06/11

      I am a Christian. I believe people chose to be gay or are made that way through nurture or certain events or things happen which enlighten those parts in the brain which respond to those things. However, I don’t care who gets married to who. I am not gay, and won’t ever marry a woman. So I don’t have a dog in the race so to say. If they pass legislation to say LGBT people can marry, fine. No skin off my nose. I personally feel as though the movement is worrying about semantics and not real issues though.

      The problem with appealing to middle Australia is this.  Unless you care about the price of chips at Coles or whether old people should have licence tests every year you aren’t going to get their attention. Especially if you look different to them. By race, skin, clothes, piercings. We think we’re progressive but not really. If that character Kenny guy came out and went on a current affair about gay rights, you may have a captive audience.

    • Arghya says:

      09:42pm | 29/06/11

      I think Louis CK sums it up best with;

      “It doesn’t have any effect on your life. What do you care? People try to talk about it like it’s a social issue. Like when you see someone stand up on a talk show and say “How am I supposed to explain to my child that two men are getting married? I dunno, it’s your shitty kid, you fucking tell them. Why is that anyone else’s problem? Two guys are in love but they can’t get married because you don’t want to talk to your ugly child for fucking five minutes?”

    • Jeremy says:

      04:41pm | 01/07/11

      The ammount of people bringing up polygamy, incest and beastiality are a resounding proof that there really is no logical, reasonable or evidence argument against gay marriage.

      The whole “well, this and this and so-and-so is not allowed too, therefore supporting gay-marriage is supporting the other” argument could be used with any legal act against any illegal act. It’s rediculous to claim that the aforementioned activities are in any way linked to Gay marriage.

      What we are talking about is equality for everybody under the legal system, which at this point in time CLAIMS to be a democracy while ignoring the basic fundamentals on which democracy was developed. It doesn’t matter one little bit what your two-thousand year old Abrahamic text says. Nor does it matter what makes you uncomfortable or what is historically traditional.

      This article is spot on.

    • Reuben Truscott says:

      05:17pm | 01/07/11

      My partner and I have been together for five years.  We live as a monogamous couple, pay taxes and are not religious.  There is nothing to differentiate us from any other member of society other than our sexual preference.  I would hazard a guess that those who are the most vocally oppossed to gay marriage have an underlying bigotry; this forum certainly displays numerous examples of that.  Seventy percent of those who experience bullying in their adolescence are targeted because of sexuality or gender issues, with LGBTI youth more likely to attempt self harm or suicide by a magnitude of five.  The marriage act in its present state perpetuates inequality and homophobia, and I for one am sick of people who are vulnerable being harrassed until they choose to end their own lives.  Wake up, people; until your attitudes change you have blood on your hands.

 

Facebook Recommendations

Read all about it

Punch live

Up to the minute Twitter chatter

Anthony Sharwood

#markwebber just wasted petrol faster than everyone else in monaco #f1

Anthony Sharwood

In my sports column on The Punch tomorrow: why Eurovision was easily the best game on the weekend. Mummy bloggers, you'll like this one!

Daniel Piotrowski

The Logies could learn a lot from Eurovision #lamethings#sbseurovision

Daniel Piotrowski

RT @ellehardytweets: Already despondent about the next fifty one weeks. #sbseurovision

Recent posts

The latest and greatest

Abbott’s crass logic: trash the Parliament in order save it

Abbott’s crass logic: trash the Parliament in order save it

An email was sent to almost every politician in Australia this week saying that someone should cut off…

Our special forces don’t always need special treatment

Our special forces don’t always need special treatment

We admire them, but we’re not entirely sure why. We allow them to operate in the shadows; we rarely…

A good holiday is about unrest, not rest

A good holiday is about unrest, not rest

Like a fat full-stop, it lay in my hand. A small orange – not exactly fresh, but purchased anyway…

Nosebleed Section

choice ringside rantings

From: They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

Michael S says:

"A teacher at Geelong Grammar had criticised her for using words that were too long, which had left her confused and had made her doubt her ability to write essays. She became ''quite distressed'' when her English marks began to fall." I can sympathise. My scholastic mentors conveyed to me a causal relationship… [read more]

From: Welfare for breeders is a bonus for everyone

Change Up! says:

I have no problem paying my taxes. As a single, childless person on a very decent income, I can afford it and not have my life severely altered. Plus I understand that my taxes paying for things like schools, childcare and infrastructure is ultimately a good thing. A better community is better for me… [read more]

Gentle jabs to the ribs

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

A private school girl’s family is sueing her elite, extremely expensive private school for not… Read more

243 comments

Newsletter

Read all about it

Sign up to the free daily Punch newsletter