What’s not complicated about marriage and family

southernX says:

05:53am | 14/01/10

At present there is no penalty for anyone breaking marriage vows; indeed, in many cases if the ‘breaker’ is a woman, she will benefit financially compared to the man.  A simple way of correcting this would be to change to divorce laws so that neither party was entitled to anything from their partners future earnings or wealth unless a pre-marriage contract was signed stating this. Existing assets held by either party should be returned to the original owner.  Assets earned during the marriage should be split in the proportion of who earned them.

And for those who worry that means that kids would go without, if you can’t afford to support kids without your partners money, your partner should have custody of the kids, not you.

Eric says:

06:26am | 14/01/10

I wonder how many of the people who condemned Tiger Woods will defend this movie?

evie says:

07:49am | 14/01/10

SouthernX, nobody benefits financially from infidelity or divorce. The property goes, legal fees stack up, child care accelerates as both parties are forced to work. The whole thing is a money-sucking process no matter what happens, and I think you’ll find not too many Australian women receive big fat payouts from their ex-husbands to balance who earned what in the marriage.

John A Neve says:

07:53am | 14/01/10

Chris,
I have never read so much twaddle in my life! Infidelity has gone on since time began. The only difference is the amount of publicity it gets. Rich and poor, old and young have all commited infidelity.

The big difference, if there is any? Is the fact that since emancipation of women, both sexes now indulge.

Surely it is better to be honest with both yourself and your family, than live a lie?

Lisa says:

08:06am | 14/01/10

People marry so late in the dating game these days that the vows have less meaning. Adult relationships are lived before marriage, these days there are no such things as ‘mistakes’.

Liz says:

08:28am | 14/01/10

People have always been people, sometimes more hypocrital at some times than at other times in history.Nothing new in all this, just society’s attitude.The Church invented marraige vows to try to establish paternity of children so only rightful heirs inherited.These days fidelity seems inpossible except for the very few who enter marriage with their eyes open having found their soul mate but realising marriage is hard work and parenting is even harder if you do it right.In the days when it took a village to raise a child the issues were not so critical.For some it seems the pressure to have ‘the big day’ are enormous and it matters not what happens next.
Many haven’t the first clue how to have a good relationship let alone a lasting one.Children are always the casualties.

Little Miss SciFi says:

08:31am | 14/01/10

Great article Chris.

DJG says:

09:03am | 14/01/10

Must agree, this is absolute twaddle.

June says:

09:05am | 14/01/10

Chris,

thank you for writing this. I get so frustrated that folk accept infidelity in marriage as the ‘norm’, to be expected, or at the very least not a surprise. I had my crazy 20’s, and when I settled down & became less selfish I got married. Seeing the destructiveness 1st hand of promiscuity and selfishness, I’ve dedicated myself to make this marriage work, and be as wonderful as it can be.
There are always going to be differences of opinion, compromise and sacrifice… be an adult, take responsibility, and work through it.

Arnold says:

09:13am | 14/01/10

I usually don’t side with the french.. but that expert has it right this time!

Colleen A says:

09:15am | 14/01/10

John A Neve,
Infidelity may have gone on since time began but it doesn’t lessen the importance of people valuing their integrity and their families over their own passions which change so much. Just because something feels good to someone doesn’t make it right.

Excellent article Chris

Phil says:

09:16am | 14/01/10

Chirs Great Article.
Its about time that people took their wows as the covernant that they are to your spouse.
To all the do gooders out their claiming that infidelity is grand, how would you feel if it happened to you? Thought so.
My wife and I have gone through difficult patches in our 12 years together and on occassions I have had women come onto me when out. Fidelity like everything else in life is a choice.
When society allows the breakdown of morals, then its all downhill from there.
John. You have a choice.
Lisa. With that view I am glad I am not your husband. How do wedding vows have less meaning?

Dylan says:

09:18am | 14/01/10

SouthernX, you’re a heartless ratbag.

T.Chong says:

09:29am | 14/01/10

Its almost 10:30, and no one has yet trotted out the old Feminism 101 bogey of “Marriage is legalised slavery/rape, women are chattels ” argument. .
Whats the use of being married, or committed de factos etc if you are not going to be faithful, otherwise the relationship is only one of temporary convenience.

cats says:

09:32am | 14/01/10

This movie pisses me off.. it’s like trying to tell us that its “funny” and “ok” if a woman cheats? wtf? Anyone who cheats on their loving partner is scum, no matter what the gender! And you’d hope old people would know more about staying loyal than anyone. Apparently not according to Hollywood.

Chris, I very much agree with your idea of marriage. I hate the fact that most of the men who comment on the Punch see infidelity as something to be proud of and something that all men should do. Maybe some say this to annoy us girls, but i suspect that some people, in particular the ones who supported Tiger Woods and blamed Elin, truely do believe that men should cheat, lie and hurt women any chance they get. They are probably just bitter 40 year old virgins though.

I think i’ve mentioned this before, but is a lot of evidence in evolution that humans are monogamous, or if not monogamous, then men having a couple of wives is natural also. Men are NOT supposed to “spread their seed as far as it can get”. Simply because one man cannot support 50 children and 20 wives. And as we all know, one parent families can be very difficult to support, hence we didn’t evolve that way. The way we have evolved, man goes out hunting for meat and woman stays with the children and gathers fruit and vegetables etc. And whether people like this or not, it is still the way that works the best.

Angela says:

09:34am | 14/01/10

Yes trust the Americans to show people how its done lol.

They always have to top it bigger and better or in this case nauseating. I agree with the statements you made marriage should be forever and be a parent, thankfully I am both.

John A Neve says:

09:37am | 14/01/10

Colleen A @1015hrs,

What makes you thing infidelity and integrity go hand in hand?
I would have thought one has less integrity, if one persists with a sham marriage. Why do you think a person who has moved on from their partner
no longer values their children?

I would have thought honesty and integrity do go hand in hand and to admit your partner is no longer the one you want to share you whole life with is honest.

bella starkey says:

10:02am | 14/01/10

people seem to forget that it is only recently that fidelity has been expected of men. The norm has been for a man to have a mistress. Of course women have been expected to remain faithful but, you know, what’s good for the goose…

Greypower says:

10:21am | 14/01/10

Well said Chris,  i agree with Phil - FIDELITY , like everything else in life, IS A CHOICE!  I’ve been married to the same man for 47 years and there have been some tough times but we worked thru’ them. 

A commitment means you honour your word - though of our 4 children, 2 are divorced but   worked very hard ot lessen the impact on their children and now have new partners . The other 2 never married but each with a partner

I am the only child (born 1936) of a loving father and violent mother - how I longed for them to separate - so I guess, you do your best!

Rover says:

10:28am | 14/01/10

@cats - I haven’t seen the movie but from the trailer and the reviews it’s not the woman who is cheating - she’s single. It’s her ex-husband who has remarried and is cheating.

Wayne Kerr says:

10:29am | 14/01/10

cat@10:32 and John A Neve@10:37

John, couldn’t agree with you more. Just because you stop loving your wife/husband, doesn’t mean you ever stop loving your kids and why stay somewhere if you’re not happy.

Secondly, Cat, I firmly believe that for the most part (not always but mostly)people have affairs because there is something already fundamentally wrong within the existing relationship.  The existing partner may or may not already be aware of it but the problem definitely exists.  I would not cheat on my current partner simply because I am very very happy in all aspects of our relationship and there is no reason for me to look elsewhere.

Simon Ingram says:

10:30am | 14/01/10

What a wonderful and brilliant article. Well said. Here here…

And now queue the barrage of angry, dissenting, selfish, atheists condemming it with a tirade, because it dares tell them that morality is not subjective and tolerance is not king.

Grant says:

10:37am | 14/01/10

Broad sweeping statements and generalising the very complicated and serious issues surrounding marriage and family break-ups.

Why camouflage yourself in secular raiment to promote your theocratic message, then mention Buddhism.  At least you could come out own what you are stating

That is, yes I’am a heavily religious person and I am presenting conservative Christian views and all of you out there who get divorced are morally bankrupt, turn or burn!

AdamC says:

11:02am | 14/01/10

We live in an age in which licence and self-gratification are almost celebrated as virtues and traditional concepts like marriage have been progressively weakened. Social and legal changes over several decades militate against a traditional, committed marriage and encourage serial monogamy (at best) as the norm in our personal relationships.

The very disposability of modern marriage leaves the cheat very little defence. If you want to hop into bed with someone else, you can get a divorce. It’s not hard, and very few people will think you the worse for it (though it may cost you money and time with your kids). If you don’t do that, and instead skulk around conducting tawdry affairs, you have no personal integrity.

Lisa says:

11:03am | 14/01/10

Don’;t get me wrong, Chris, I’m actually a great supporter of marriage.
I just feel that society has really spoken with its feet about marriage - and that’s a pity. Forty per cent of WA kids are - according to our Sunday newspaper - born out of wedlock. I think socially expecting women to give birth unmarried can put a lot of pressure on women, and make them feel vulnerable to abandonment.
In any case, marriage happens well after sexual experience has begun, and that means the waters are already pretty muddied by the time people walk up the aisle. I guess this could mean that some people are more likely to have a healthy, mature marraige, having played out their ‘mistakes’ with other people.
But the idea of saving ‘your best’ for marriage has gone. Women are now expected to provide their best before marriage, to prove themselves worthy of the crown.

Paul says:

11:05am | 14/01/10

A good spouse is a good parent. The two go hand-in-glove. When you hear an unfaithful person say that they are not a good spouse but they are a good parent, they are talking twaddle. A good parent doesn’t set a bad example!

Jolanda says:

11:05am | 14/01/10

I totally agree with your article.  It is so sad that people can make promises and take vows that they really do not intend to keep.  Sad for the children as they are the ones who suffer the most.

6clegs says:

11:08am | 14/01/10

“Liz” @ 9.28am - spot.on!

I dunno whats sadder - that this movie was even made, or that such a great actress as Ms Streep can only find lead roles in this sort of tripe!???

Justifying infidelity, is what compulsive liars do. (I know coz i was married to one) It’s pretty simple really - if you want to be a player - THEN DON’T GET MARRIED. Oh but that might have meant that the “Tiger Woods” brand (&others; like him) wouldn’t have been “perfect”. >how do i do the rolly-eyes?<

MKW says:

11:16am | 14/01/10

@John a neve - you seem a little confused. Infidelity more often than not involves lying and cheating - not something that goes with integrity at all!

Meanwhile, I think both genders are starting to question the idea of marriage… We have grown up seeing endless affairs & heartbreak splashed around for the world to see, highest divorce rates of all time, and plenty of tv shows (for men & women) celebrating the joys of singledom & and freedom.

I think Chris’ article is excellent however, and I hope one day to reach the ideals he speaks of. I also hope to be luck y enough to have a partner that does the same.
What a risk it will be though!

Melanie says:

11:28am | 14/01/10

“It used to be that we (society) valued and promoted self-control, especially in the service of love and honour, as a positive virtue.”

...or, in other words, The World Was Always Like The 1950s, until we changed everything.

“it is only recently that fidelity has been expected of men. The norm has been for a man to have a mistress.”

...in other words, The World Was Always Like The 1830s, until the 1950’s changed everything.

People, please try to remember that ONE moment in the past does not equal ALL moments in the past. There have been times when fidelity by both partners was valued, and other times when it wasn’t. Stop assuming that the world was entirely homogenous until recently.

Also:
“The Church invented marraige vows to try to establish paternity of children so only rightful heirs inherited.”

Liz, what are you smoking and where can I get some?
The ancient Romans had marriage vows. So did the Egyptians. So do muslims. So do Jews. So do a LOT of cultures. The Christian church did NOT invent the idea.

Voice of reason says:

11:39am | 14/01/10

Its just a movie, people. Chill out.

Joe Stephens says:

11:40am | 14/01/10

Judging from some comments.. has anyone actually seen the movie (including the author)? It’s nice to bang on about sin free and all but come on, find a better example than a “romantic comedy” which nobody seems to have seen.

6clegs says:

12:01pm | 14/01/10

“Grant” and “Simon” - dunno where you get that Atheists/Agnostics are all likely to be Unfaithful? I’m a card carrying non-believer in all things Religious. I have xtian and non-xian friends that all think being Unfaithful is cowardly…  But then religious cranks (of any brand) like to show just how Caring and “godly”  they are by breathing fire and damnation at others who can think for themselves. . . I’m surprised that they know how to use a keyboard, let alone operate computers- seeing as neither are mentioned in the old testement! 

Michelle says:

12:40pm | 14/01/10

I’m not sure I understand half the comments here.  My understanding of the article is that the author doesn’t approve of infidelity.  I didn’t read anywhere that he said you should stay in a sham of a marriage. And how pray tell is commiting infidelity ‘being honest to yourself and your family” @ John E Neve - I would have thought it was the definition of living a lie.

Let’s be clear, marriage isn’t compulsory.  You have a choice.  I’m not married, I get to choose who I sleep around with and it’s nobody’s business but mine.  If I chose to be in a committed relationship whether formal marriage or defacto, then I’ve chosen to honour some vows and promise, chief among which are honesty and fidelity.  I’m not including here couples who choose to allow multiple partners in their life, if they do so in an upfront and honest way and each agrees, then that’s not infidelity.

Infidelity to me is the definition of living a lie.  If you don’t want to commit to your partner, don’t get married or formally recognise your relationship, stay single and sleep around - at least you’re being honest about it.  If you’re unhappy and want to leave a relationship, then again be honest and have the courage to leave.  Having your bit on the side is the cowards way out.

Wombat says:

12:53pm | 14/01/10

Chris Gardiner: Good to see the strong focus in your article on honesty and integrity.
I used to work in an industry where it was the done thing for blokes to brag about their sexual exploits (sorry if that doesn’t narrow it down much). Blokes who constantly talked about cheating on their missus (without her knowledge) were usually admired for it.
I always said that the bloke who comes to work and brags about cheating on his missus is the same bloke who goes home and brags to his wife about stealing from his workmate’s tool kit.
Personal experience with such blokes has taught me that dishonesty is rarely confined to just one area of a person’s life.

6clegs: One of the worst of these blokes was a deeply religious, church-going Anglican who liked to argue points of religion with me.
When God is your best mate you can do anything.

Chase Stevens says:

12:54pm | 14/01/10

Good Partner =/= Good Parent. Don’t try to equate the two.

Betty Draper is heaven says:

01:19pm | 14/01/10

Laudable opinion, Chris.

However, the current social values are that everything is about me-me-me and if I am not “happy” then I have to do what suits me-me-me.

The marriage contract was about love, honour and obey no matter what. Try getting that through people today.

Zeta says:

01:43pm | 14/01/10

I went to a Hillsong service once, for laughs, and out of morbid curiosity. The pastors there sound very much like Chris Gardiner, the way they use topical, pop cultural references to draw in the youth crowd. “Hey kids? Do you have an iPod? Well guess what? Jesus is like the world’s biggest iPod, full of awesome tunes, like Creed and Nickleback. But unlike iPods, where, like, you’ve gotta beg your parents to buy you one (I know, it’s a drag right?), you can get your Jesus iPod just by praying! Yeah! Rock & Roll! Now seriously, don’t have sex or your eyeballs will melt in Satan’s spike lined gullet.”

The problems with this article, and the bizarro world logic of Hillsong are the same. The arguments sound good (obviously not my satirical one, unless Jesus has that neat shuffle feature and 99 cent song downloads) but they fall apart as soon as you start asking ‘Why’?

So, why is marriage so great? Why does marriage matter? Why have children? Fifty years ago, authority figures simply said ‘Marriage is important because everyone does it, and if you don’t do it, you’ll be weird and never get a job and have to live with Allen Ginsberg in Rockdale Mental Hospital.’ That actually makes more sense than the cloying sentimentality of the Chris Gardiner’s of the world.

My partner and I remain unmarried, inspite of the constant, crushing pressure of family and friends. Recently, when we were thinking of buying a house together, we discovered that it was cheaper to have a Registry wedding than it was to pay a lawyer to write up a contract that would give our joint purchase the same legal protection. Marriage is, and I think always will be the status quo, which those of us who don’t value it will always have to deal with and work around.

Grant says:

01:47pm | 14/01/10

@ 6clegs

My comment was actually meant to be directed at person who wrote the piece, Chris Gardiner.

Which is, Chris has made broad sweeping statements and generalising very complicated and serious issues surrounding marriage and family break-ups.

Chris has disguised his piece in secular raiment even though he is a heavily religious person and is presenting conservative Christian views.  I just think he needs to own what he has written.

Re-reading what I wrote originally I can understand why you would think I was writing from about myself. 

Steve says:

02:06pm | 14/01/10

@Chase Stevens
“Good Partner =/= Good Parent. Don’t try to equate the two.”

Why not?
I’ve read about 10 parenting books. They all suggested that if you want to be a good parent, then you have to work on being a good marriage partner first.

John A Neve says:

02:16pm | 14/01/10

MKW @ 1216hrs,
I am not confused at all, the Bard once wrote “This above all things, to you own self be true”.

Every thing in my previous posts on this topic, I believe to be true.

DG says:

02:43pm | 14/01/10

I disagree with the suggestion that infidelity is about the break down of morality - I am not one to impose my own morality on others.

A good argument can be made that a person who is not faithful or otherwise acts in contravention of their vows is a person that is unworthy of honour (as their behaviour is dishonourable), unworthy or respect (as their behaviour is not respectable) and above all unworthy of trust and has demonstrated themselves to be without integrity.

It is the loss of these things, not the loss of morality, that is the issue. A vow made should not be broken without consequence - not the least of which are those thing listed above.

I would suggest that, in a relationship, a person is entitled to rely on the promises and vows of their partner. However, one that person has broken their vows is is appropriate that all know that the person is unworthy of honour, respect or trust.

If people held their vows and promises to be of some worth the issue would be resolved in an instant. Of course we have raised a generation that reserve the right to “change their mind” (read, break their vows and promises if they so choose).  No person should suffer detriment for their reliance on a promise made by another (especially a promise made in the presence of witnesses) - regardless of the change of mind of the person making the promise.

Chris Gardiner says:

02:52pm | 14/01/10

Just for the record (especially for Grant), I am agnostic. I do happen to think that ethics can be grounded in reasonably objective arguments about what promotes human well-being

On the issue of the complexities of marriage, I think my paragraph beginning “I am not suggesting that all marriages should continue ...” reveals that I am commending honesty and commitment, not suggesting that every marriage can or should be maintained unconditionally. There are honest ways of addressing marital problems, and then there’s infidelity: there are honest, courageous and civil ways of ending a relationship, and there’s dishonest and weak ways.

DG says:

02:57pm | 14/01/10

John A Neve (10:37am | 14/01/10)

You do make a good point. But I think there is a middle ground and that is the difference between deciding you need to get out of a relationship and talking to your partner about it and the alternative just going out and getting some on the side.

Now I personally believe that a person SHOULD be bound by their promises. “I’ve changed my mind” or “I don’t feel like it” is not a basis for breaking the promises that one has made to another. If one can change their mind and, by doing so, absolve themselves from all existing responsibility, did they ever really have any responsibility? Are they worthy of trust when their vows is only valid so long as they feel like upholding it? Is there integrity in breaking a promise on the grounds of self interest or change of heart? I say “No”.

You do not get to choose your feelings, and I respect that a persons feelings may change. But you do choose your behaviour, and a persons honesty and integrity should be based on their actions. A promise made (action) should be binding regardless of change of mind - or perhaps with a short cooling off period for the ‘bigger’ promises. 

If you are sincerely of the opinion that a person is not bound by their promises, their vows and their agreements how can you claim that they have integrity? How can you claim that such a person has honour or is worthy of respect? If they are not bound by their promises on what grounds doe one assess their loyalty?

H of SA says:

03:11pm | 14/01/10

Hi Zetz,

The reason marriage is highly valued even outside of religious institutions and across societies is its proven track record. Any child development expert/social worker/psychologist will tell you that children raised in families where the parents are married rate higher on every score of development, mental and physical health - yes there are exceptions and no not all married people are the best parents but the research is in - over decades and across cultures - married parents is good for kids.

Additionally, insurance companies will tell you (across cultures and across time) married people are healthier and live longer.

Research also shows that (across time and culture) married people report higher levels of relationship satisfaction and happiness than unmarried de-facto.

The value of marriage has been proven time and again in studies. This is why governments actively support marriage and fund programs to keep married people together. The more marriages the higher the rate of physical and mental health in the population.

6clegs says:

04:02pm | 14/01/10

Back @ “Grant”—-  sorry mate, I’d edit, but… 

Phil says:

04:09pm | 14/01/10

T.Chong and H of SA

I cant believe I agree with your posts. But great politics aside you are both sensible people who here at least have written good points.

Ros says:

10:57pm | 14/01/10

The article makes good points about relationships and commitment and our attitudes towards both.  Maintaining commitment in the absence of love, warmth and compassion does make committed relationships complicated.  One person alone cannot make a relationship work and yet the commitment to family can be strong.  Many parents stay in unhappy marriages because of their commitment to family.  This is tragic more than anything else.

As for the movie, Eric, it’s a movie. Tiger Woods is real. Also, in the movie there is one infidelity not a dozen or more.  Oh, and it’s a fictional movie.  In the movie Meryl and Alec consider recommitting; neither considers a semi-permanent years on end liaison while still married to someone else. Spoiler Alert -  Their affair is brief and Meryl quickly realises it is wrong and puts a stop to it.  Does any of this sound like the Tiger Woods story?  In the movie Meryl and Alec are divorced spouses who spent 20 yrs together raising three children.  There really is no comparison with the Tiger Woods story.  Most reasonable people regard Tiger’s personal life as his own; most, however are simply shocked by the magnitude of his reported liaisons.

Steve says:

02:25pm | 15/01/10

@Lisa
“In any case, marriage happens well after sexual experience has begun, ...
... the idea of saving ‘your best’ for marriage has gone. Women are now expected to provide their best before marriage, to prove themselves worthy of the crown.”

A true friendship must be built on mutual respect. How much more a good marriage?

If your fiancee asks you for sex before marriage, ask him to respect your belief that sex is just for marriage, and wait until then. If he is not willing to wait, then he does not respect you. Insist on respect. If you don’t insist on it, you’ll not get it. If it is not there in the beginning, it will not be there in the end.

To those who are married (or in an equivalent relationship) already, the same logic applies. Always insist on respect. Infidelity is a symptom of a lack of respect.

H of SA says:

04:19pm | 15/01/10

Nice to know we don’t disagree all the time hey Phil? Ha ha, most likely it would take a very special lack of self reflection and remarkable life experience for any of us to be wrong and or not in agreement 100% of the time. I guess thats one of the reasons we participate in the posts….cuz maybe everynow and then we will get some useful info from it, even, perhaps especially from unexpected sources.