What you need is to be told you suck

baal says:

07:55am | 08/10/10

oh god so true.

TheRealDave says:

09:44am | 08/10/10

Spot on Steph.

Nothing like going home after a long day at work, pleased with what you’ve achieved, problems solved etc - only to have the missus burst that bubble within 5 seconds of opening the door

And they wonder why blokes prefer to die earlier than women :p

Chris L says:

06:00pm | 08/10/10

I find just asking for a date can end up with plenty of “constructive” criticism, but maybe that doesn’t happen to other people.

Kordez says:

11:02am | 08/10/10

LOL @ Macca! Maybe.. =)

I quite liked it.

marley says:

10:21am | 08/10/10

Well, for those that can read, anyway.

marley says:

10:23am | 08/10/10

I’m not sure that’s true.  I think the success stories belong to the people who listen to their critics and either learn from them or make the decision to prove them wrong.

Trjn says:

11:34am | 08/10/10

You’re talking about the Dunning-Kruger effect, where those with little knowledge of a subject overestimate their abilities and those with a larger amount of knowledge of a subject tend to underestimate their abilities.

The general idea is probably (my memory on this is sketchy because I haven’t really read into it that much) that when you know little about something, you don’t realise how much your skills could improve and don’t have a good means of comparison. When you do know more about something, you do realise just how much your skills could improve and are comparing yourself against a higher standard than you probably should.

It’s kind of related to the whole “the more you know, the more you know you don’t know” thing.

Austin 3:16 says:

06:04pm | 08/10/10

Hey Trjn,

Sort of I suppose, but more generally:  as an example most people consider themselves above average drivers.  Most people can’t possibly be “above average” it’s impossible.  And that’s it in life we tend to think we are better than we are.

But in some areas of life we get concrete feedback, for example you might do a maths test and get a poor result, this could occur with enough regularity for you to realise that you are just not very good at maths.  The tendency there is to down play the area you are poor at, and over emphasis the areas you are good at.

The effect often gets attributed to Ali because:
Ali asked whether he actually had failed the army mental examination or had purposely performed poorly to stay out of the army service. Ali’s reply was: ‘I only said I was the greatest, not the smartest.

austin 3:16 says:

08:01am | 09/10/10

Hey Marley,

The thing is whoever is doing the judging is as human as the rest of us and just as likely to be wrong. The guy who turned down the opportunity to sign the Beatles because “gituar bands were on the way out” was wrong.

And there are plenty of other occasions throughout history where the critic has been wrong.

marley says:

09:42am | 10/10/10

Hi Austin - I think your Beatles story falls into my second category.

Of course critics are often wrong.  But I think most successful people listen to them - that doesn’t mean they heed them, just that they consider what is being said, weigh it, and either adapt to or challenge the criticism.  Just like the Beatles.

Sam Spade says:

11:18am | 08/10/10

I think you need to read the article again Dick.  You have completely missed the point.

Dick says:

03:51pm | 08/10/10

Ok, Sam, enlighten me.  What is the point, then?  Oh yes: we need “dislodgers” in our lives.  My point?  Dislodgers are usually just insecure people who pick others apart on the basis of their own fears of failure.  They are otherwise known as critics.  People who talk but don’t do.  I say the best leaders and teachers are those who lead by example, not critique everyone else.  Give me hundred doer’s (even if they don’t always get it perfect) over one “dislodger”.  Critics.  Hmmph.  And, actually, your response to my comment is a perfect example of that.  Other than telling me I’m wrong, what else do you add to the debate?  Where are your original ideas?  Why did you even bother posting a reply at all?

marley says:

09:51am | 10/10/10

Well, I have to say, if I’m the boss, and one of my employees produces a poor piece of work, he is going to know it.  I’ll be constructive, I’ll make suggestions, I’ll praise that part (if any) which is good, but I’m not going to let him float along assuming he’s producing good quality output if he’s not. I’m definitely going to challenge him to do better.  My insecurities don’t come into it, his lack of competence does.

The same thing should be happening in our education system.  If a student writes an essay full of grammatical errors, “non sequiters”, plagiarisms or mistakes of fact, then he should be told his work isn’t up to scratch.

And that sort of dislodgement is in fact a good thing because it makes for a better product and a more skilled employee/student.  And that is the point of the essay.

fairsfair says:

12:43pm | 08/10/10

Why don’t you post it on the Punch? People will line up to pick the shit out of it.

Nicole says:

12:59pm | 08/10/10

fairsfair, you’re funny!

Bob Higgs says:

01:17pm | 08/10/10

I’m a mentor - and I thought I was just a grumpy seething cauldron of bitterness with not a good word to say about anyone or anything.

Reg says:

11:50am | 09/10/10

A double sided coin Zac. Praise and negative criticism can both come from people who wouldn’t really know. They just think they do.

austin 3:16 says:

08:44am | 09/10/10

Hey JM,

Just from the wiki entry Kruger-Dunning seems to focus on the unskilled and there inability to see themselves as unskilled. Whereas I’m talking more about “Illusory superiority / the above average effect” which seems to apply more to the general population than specifically the unskilled.  (as well as optimism bias)

For example the majority of people will rate themselves as above average drivers - as high as 93% in one USA study classed themselves as above average. This would most likely include some above average, average and below average drivers.

So while Kruger-Dunning seems to me to focus on the below average and there inability to recognise it illusory superiority may be more broadly applied to the general population.

So it’s not just the unskilled that see themselves as better than they are. It’s pretty much all of us in one way or another. This would, of course, include the critic that is telling you that you are no good. They, most likely, are over estimating their ability to judge your abilities.

There have been plenty of times in history where the critics have been dead wrong.

The converse to illusory superiority is depressive realism which is the proposition that the depressed have the most accurate view of themselves and reality.

Please make them stop says:

09:18pm | 08/10/10

Oh god so true.  The very worst kind of viewing torture that should be outlawed by the Geneva Convention.  Anyone with a lick of empathy just dies for these poor deluded souls.

James1 says:

03:18pm | 08/10/10

Absolute rubbish.  The best mark I have ever given was for an essay that I completely disagreed with.  Conversely, I have failed a large number of essays that I agreed with.  Some people can write good essays with supportable arguments, and some can not.  I am guessing that you are rubbish at putting together an argument, and that is why you went into mathematics instead of politics, and now attempt to look down on those who are better at you than putting together a supportable argument.

Vicki PS says:

05:31pm | 08/10/10

Okay, put your objective performance measures where your oral intake cavity is, Mick old bean, and provide some independent, objective evidence for your assertions that:

a) the humanities are less accurately judged than the mathematical sciences (whatever the hell you meant by that); and
b) private enterprise almost always does it better than government does.

And while you’re at it:

c) compare and contrast the roles and effectiveness of the public and private sectors in a “civilised” society, having first defined “civilised”.

James1 says:

10:22am | 09/10/10

Don’t hold your breath Vicki.  Anything more complex than a monetary and mathematical equations are most likely beyond St Michael.  Business and mathematics types are not known for the ability to think critically.

marley says:

08:12am | 11/10/10

Well, I think the voters have told both parties that they suck.  Unfortunately, I don’t see either of them getting the message - it’s more a matter of “you suck more than I do.”  Schoolyard stuff.  Both parties should be taken out behind the shed and given a good tanning.