“Doth protest too much”. The ageless quote from Shakespeare’s Hamlet comes to mind when assessing world leaders response to the Copenhagen climate conference. 

It all looked so good for the cameras

Lashings of praise have been heaped upon the Copenhagen Accord from Obama, the Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao, Kevin Rudd and other world leaders.  It has been described as a “meaningful agreement”, “a great step forward” and “significant and positive”.

What would an agreement deserving of this kind of praise look like?  The world needs a comprehensive global response that will deliver a safe climate, that is a minimally change climatic system that can support humanity to meet our needs.

Consequently the bulk of the world’s civil society groups have argued that a global agreement must be fair, ambitious and binding.  This framing has also been adopted by the bulk of the world’s countries, as well as many businesses and local and regional governments.

Fairness in this context acknowledges that the world’s poor, who have contributed the least to the problem, are likely to suffer the most from climate change impacts.  A Pacific delegate said to me some days ago, “we don’t want to ask for help, but we have to, we will not be able to address the impacts on our own.” 

Indeed, the predicted impacts for Pacific Islands are substantial, including salt-water intrusion on cropping lands and fresh water sources, coral bleaching, and diminishing fish stocks.

The Copenhagen Accord does promise $US 100 billion a year by 2020 aimed at helping poor countries reduce emissions and adapt to impacts.  However, this is half the amount needed and it is unclear what mechanisms would be used to ensure that the funds are distributed fairly and accountably.

One of the stickiest aspects of negotiations has been the level of ambition that countries are willing to bring to the table. The Accord affirms a commitment by nations to keep warming below 2 degrees, however essential 2020 emission reduction targets have not been included.

While 2 degrees may have been considered an appropriate global ambition some years ago, as our understanding of the science has improved, this number has been widely discredited.

At 2 degrees warming we can expect to see severe, including substantial reductions in Australia’s agricultural capacity, increased bushfires and the destruction of the Great Barrier Reef. Scientists now recommend that global warming be limited at 1.5 degrees of warming to prevent the worst impacts. 

This number is backed by 112 countries, and numerous international luminaries, including Sir Nicolas Stern and Al Gore.

Further, there is no evidence that this Accord would give us any chance of staying below two degrees. Indeed, leaked documents from the negotiations last week revealed that the targets currently put forward by nations would likely see a three degree rise in global temperatures causing devastating impacts across the globe.

The Accord is merely a political statement, rather than a legally binding treaty. While it may have been impossible to finalise a treaty in Copenhagen, what was needed was a concrete pathway to enshrine it agreement in international law within the next 6-12 months.

The lack of ambition coupled with no timetable for a treaty demonstrates the gaping hole between what the science demands and political will of key countries, including Australia.  So from all three criteria the Accord could hardly be described as meaningful.

However, while the agreement is very inadequate, it cannot be used as an excuse to do nothing, to wait and see.  Conversely it increases the urgency with which Australia needs to create a domestic response to climate change. 

We are the world’s most vulnerable developed country to climate change and consequently our fate will be determined by the strength of the global response.  In 2009 nature has loudly rung the warning bells for Australia with its devastating heat wave, fires, floods, dust-storms and record breaking temperatures.

Australia needs to demonstrate that we are willing to do our fair share and build trust into the UN process.  Australia would not be leading, but following the myriad of countries already capitalising on the green economy and getting on with the job.

While the US and China may be lagging in their international commitments, both economies are rapidly making leaps and bounds in renewable energy.

Significantly, at this conference more countries than ever before have been emboldened to speak out about their grave concerns for their nations.  Small island nations have been particularly vocal as warming beyond 1.5 degrees is likely to see whole nations swallowed up by the sea.

The President of the Maldives, a nation that’s highest point is four meters, put it starkly,  “For us, this is more than just another meeting, this is a matter of life and death.”

One reason that countries have felt confident to express their concern is that they now have the support of a growing international movement of civil society.

People around the world have begun to realize that climate change is not just about Polar bears and ice caps, it threatens people’s lives and livelihoods.

That is why 90,000 Australians from all walks of life march in the streets during the UN talks at the Walk Against Warming, it is why thousands of Australians sent heart felt letters of support to Pacific governments and is why my organization the AYCC has grown from 5000 to 52,000 members in the last 12 months.

Ordinary Australians, and ordinary citizens world wide, are beginning to realise that our political leaders will fail unless we refuse to let them.

This deal struck over the weekend might make for a good photo opportunity to help global leaders to save face but it has failed to create the fair, ambitious and binding agreement the world needs.

99 comments

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    • Eric says:

      05:49am | 24/12/09

      People around the world have begun to realise that anthropogenic global warming is nowhere near as certain as it has been portrayed. As Europe and North America freeze in the wake of Copenhagen, every day we are seeing new revelations of scientific fraud committed by those aboard the climate change bandwagon.

      We don’t need to go ahead with extreme policies in a state of panic - we need to do some honest research and have a real debate about the science.

      Here’s a bit of perspective: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/09/hockey-stick-observed-in-noaa-ice-core-data/

    • Margaret Gray says:

      05:55am | 24/12/09

      Amanda,

      If this was the ghastly global climatic apocalypse your Climate Youth Flash Mob keeps screaming it is then I would hardly call the pitifully low (and questionable) attendant numbers at a ‘climate walk’ or adolescents registering with multiple email addresses boosting your ‘Coalition’ member numbers as a “growing international movement of civil society”.

      In a country with 22 million people, the quantum of participants in this ‘movement’ would struggle to fill a football stadium.

      Doesn’t say much for the urgency of the cause.

      Beyond the appalling justifications for “action” built on bogus science and fraudulent methodology…that’s why Copenhagen failed

      Never mind, we can all go back to fleecing the public on the virtues of emissions trading.

      Congratulations on the thesis by the way.

    • steve says:

      06:17am | 24/12/09

      Oh Good Grief
      These Traffic Light Party supporters (I’ll tell you I’m green but too yellow to tell you I’m red) still have not realised that the Trough Fest at Hopenhargen was not about turning down the thermostat on the Planet, it was about money and the distribution of wealth. I suspect the same 112 countries saying we need 1.5 deg lower are the same ones that shouted that $100Bill was not enough and they wanted $300Bill as a start. It was all about the money, though I suspect you know that.
      To describe Nicolas Stern and AL GORE as luminaries is laughable. Especially after Gore lost that court case in the UK about the lies he told in his horror Si-Fi fantasy film.
      You do not have to worry too much longer about the poor they are going to starve to death due to rising food prices, because the deluded well off in the western world are pumping Bio-fuel into their cars to give themselves the “warm green fuzzies”. Which do you think the poor would prefer, food or a doctor’s wives carbon foot print on their throat?
      You are right about one thing sweetie; the “accord” will do nothing about the temperature of the globe, after “Climategate” I am sure that the “new improved data” that comes out of the CRA at East Anglia will continue to show a temperature rise even with all of most of Europe, Canada and a third of USA under ice
      Watch out for HOCKEY STICK II now with New improved Science

    • Steve says:

      06:35am | 24/12/09

      Amanda makes no reference to the existence of a large group of people who think that COP15 was trying to solve the wrong problem, in the wrong way. I don’t mind Amanda expressing her point of view strongly. She no doubt believes in it strongly. But I don’t think her case would be weakened a lot if she were to allow that some of her beliefs are controversial.

    • Sherlock says:

      06:43am | 24/12/09

      Nobody really believes in climate change, certainly not world leaders despite their statements to the contrary.

      After rearing it’s ugly head in the 1980’s, the global warming myth, described even then as the biggest threat ever, led us to the Earth Summit in Brazil in 1992.

      17 years and god knows how many summits later and the world’s governments have agreed to do absolutely nothing. Meanwhile the Earth quietly chugs along as normal as it has done quite happily for billions of years.

      Copenhagen exposed the climate change myth for the con job it is. It’s not about saving the planet it’s all about money. Everyone was shocked by the level of carpetbagging that went on.

      Even before Copenhagen, nearly 50% of the population was sceptical about man-made climate change. After the disgraceful spectacle that was Copenhagen you can be sure that figure has soared. As the northern hemisphere freezes yet again that figure will grow even more. It’s hard to be concerned about global warming when you’re main concern is how to stop yourself freezing to death.

      It won’t be long before we give climate change alarmists that same patronising smile we currently reserve for those people who still think the Y2K threat was real.

    • Diamantina Dick says:

      06:56am | 24/12/09

      What went wrong at Copenhagen was that world leaders demonstrated that, on balance,  that they are not believers in the scientific “consensus” and that science is not a popularity contest.

    • acker says:

      07:06am | 24/12/09

      Maybe these meetings should be staged in Tuvulu, Kiribati, The Maldives or perhaps even the Antarctic

      Rather than fairytale land like Denmark in the centre of Europe..

    • Tony Cooper says:

      07:10am | 24/12/09

      Deal, what deal?

      Copenhagen was the best example of “how to achieve nothing” I have ever seen!

      Seems there was no pre-work and the result was ‘expected’. I just doesn’t work that way.

      As for Australia taking the lead, no problems as long as it’s done! An ETS will do nothing for Australia as it assumes mutual obligation with a trading partner - we don’t have that (the basic criteria).

      We need to bite the bullet and force change - it can be done, easy and relatively painless.

      Results rely heavily on the big polluters getting into action.

      As for US and China - they have both signalled inaction: China by it’s voluntary GDP targets and the US by it’s congress statement that ‘a bill’ will not get through congress.

      So c’mon Aussie, change out those coal fired power stations; regulate the types of engines in trucks and cars (like Europe); do something with the public transport infrustructure etc. etc. etc

    • Andrew Goff says:

      07:26am | 24/12/09

      Citing Al Gore as being beneficial to the climate change argument is like citing a friebug as being good for bushfire awareness.

      How about we stick to the science, because even those out there who are skeptics on the science at least are discussign the issue on reasonable grounds. Publicity whores like Gore only diminsh the extremely strong case for climate change through the over the top hyper-reaction and, in Gore’s case, ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims.

      Meanwhile, anyone up for a sweepstakes on how long it will take for one of the rabid denialist (as opposed to legitimate skeptics) to point out that 20 million people didn’t walk… and claim that as undeniable scientific proof that global warming doesn’t exist? In 3… 2… 1…

    • Colin J Ely says:

      07:26am | 24/12/09

      Amanda
      What went wrong? Silly people like you listened to fraudsters like Sir Nicholas Stern and Albert Arnold Gore Jr!  As I understand it, the Garnaut Report started with the premise that the UN IPCC report was accepted as fact. Now we have two of its leading authors facing criminal prosecution. Wait until you are another 30 years older and have lived through ‘Nuclear Annihilation’, SARS, Y2K, Bird Flu, Swine Flu, Acid Rain, etc, etc, etc. Haven’t you worked out yet that it is all about money and power! I hope my taxes weren’t wasted on your airfare to Copenhagen?

    • Colin J Ely says:

      07:29am | 24/12/09

      Amanda
      BTW perhaps you can inform us, we your humble readers, what Maths/Science subjects you took during your Arts/Law Honours degree?

    • Charles says:

      07:45am | 24/12/09

      I must admit I had a bit of a giggle when Amanda described those clueless carpetbaggers Al Gore and Nick Stern as luminaries.  Time for a much needed reality check I suspect.

      As for the rest of it, a shame that so much of the propaganda that has been tipped into her head has stuck.

      My advice would be to go on a holiday, preferably somewhere low lying like the Maldives and/or Tuvalu, and just see for herself how little has changed over the decades, despite some of the most catastrophic rent-seeking the planet has ever seen.

      Afetr that she might consider getting herself a real job and contibuting to the Australian economy, instead of dragging value off it to satisfy whatever ideological itch she might recently have acquired. At the moment her life could be truly described as one spent in waste

    • Wayne Hutchins says:

      07:54am | 24/12/09

      I’ve got to learn to be nice! I get censored here too many times.
      What I did say though was that I don’t have any faith in the opinion of somebody with a clear vested interest in the introduction of an ETS. Amanda completed an Arts/Law degree completing a law honours thesis on emissions trading with first class honours. Look pretty stupid if we don’t have an ETS considering all that study. 50,000 kiddies signed up on the internet is a bit of a giggle though. Bit of feel good rubbish.

    • Justin Turner says:

      07:56am | 24/12/09

      I don’t know why the myth of Australia being the developed nation most vulnerable to climate change keeps being trotted out. By even the harshest estimates, we have 120 years worth of black coal & up to 400 years worth of brown coal. We’ve got 30-40% of the world’s uranium, what can that be used for again? And we have the ability to desalinate water & can make pipes & pumps, so agriculture will be fine.

      If the sea level does rise, well what an opportunity for an infrastructure stimulus that will be! Sea wall construction projects will go through the roof - maybe that will be some of that technology that we can lead the world in instead of fantasy green energy projects.

      If it’s happening, do we really think we can stop it? We’re better off planning for the possible consequences.

    • vicki says:

      07:58am | 24/12/09

      Amanda, keep it up, how will we ever make progress while our politicians tell us rubbish about no man-made impact on the environment.  We just need to look around and see the ever-growing crowds of people everywhere. We need to get on with protecting our future.

    • Old Bloke says:

      08:07am | 24/12/09

      Don’t be too surprised that the under 30’s are so smitten with Global Warming/Climate Change.  The last 20 + years have seen the message consistently carried through schools.
      Past Liberal leader Turnbull reportedly recently said he could not understand why this issue was so strongly supported by the young while older generations remained sceptical.  I don’t know why he has swallowed the line but I believe I do understand why the broader young have!

    • Elizabeth says:

      08:14am | 24/12/09

      Thank you for this sensible and insightful contribution.

      The Punch is ridiculous for allowing so many personal attack comments with no value to be posted on this page.  The Punch claims to be “Australia’s best conversation” how this is not represented in the comments here or on most climate change pieces.  It is welcome for people to have differing views, however they must provide some evidence for their claims rather than just merely attacking the writer.

      There has never been such a wide ranging scientific consensus on any problem.  Unless those who wish to dispute the science can bring some peer reviewed evidence to the table, they are merely operating in the realm of belief.  I wonder how they would explain the terrible extreme weather events on 2009 in Australia - which are so far outside natural variability - without acknowledging climate change.  Without any evidence to rely upon the only ones pedalling propaganda are climate change denialists.

    • Colin J Ely says:

      02:47am | 30/09/10

      Elizabeth
      To quote the great Dorothea MacKellar
      ‘I love a sunburnt country,
      A land of sweeping plains.
      Of ragged mountain ranges,
      of droughts, and flooding rains.”

    • alteria says:

      08:28am | 24/12/09

      Interesting that astring climate change sceptics at The Punch such as Eric and Margaret Gray are triumphant at the failure to reach a good agreement at Copenhagen. All the traits are there: the hatred of Al Gore, the focus on a sideshow like climate gate.  Any post now one of them will be telling us that the climate is cooling and the ice caps growing.

      Their peculiar sense of triumph will not be eternal, I believe.

      Unlike these sceptics, the nations at Copenhagen did not doubt that climate change is real and that action is necessary to counter it. They failed because they could not do what has never been done before: reach a binding international agreement with ramifications for national economies and national sovereignty, where the costs start immediately but the benefits don’t accrue for some time.

      Is it surprising that agreement was not reached this time? It will be more surprising if agreement is not reached within a few years. It will be. All we can do is hope that it won’t be too little too late. I suspect the children and grandchildren of the sceptics will be just as disappointed as all other members of younger generations if it is.

    • Jarra says:

      08:36am | 24/12/09

      Thank you for the insightful article - it is great to get a view from someone on the ground!

      Climate change is an emerging crisis and our government isn’t doing enough to protect Australia from the damage it will cause.  The result in Copenhagen was disappointing.  It is the responsibility of all world leaders to find a way to solve the problem together - it is a global problem and requires a global solution.

      One of these conferences should definitely be held on a small island nation - it would give world leaders a chance to look at the damage that climate change is already causing.

      Contrary to the claims Charles has made, Tuvalu in particular is already experiencing impacts from climate change.  Check out this report for one example:
      http://www.germanwatch.org/download/klak/fb-tuv-e.pdf

    • Daniel says:

      08:36am | 24/12/09

      I find many of these comments quite unbelievable.

      The IPCC does not conduct science, it looks at the peer-reviewed literature and summarizes where the science is at. The conclusions of the 4th assessment report are very clear - climate change is happening and we are the main cause of it. I’ve personally contributed to the peer reviewed literature, and it is surprising just how overwhelming the scientific consensus really is.

      The so-called “science” that the deniers and misinformants will cite mostly takes the form of op-ed articles penned by unqualified individuals who are often in the employ of large oil companies, or libertarian/free market “think tanks” (I use the word “think” in a very broad sense). The literature reflects an overwhelming consensus in the serious scientific community.

      As for the climategate scandal, people need to realize that a handful of discredited scientists does nothing to move the scientific consensus. That’s the whole point of science - that other people can do the same experiments and get the same results.

      If anybody here wants to actually take the time to learn about the climate, there are plenty of good resources available, written by actual climate scientists:

      http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/05/start-here/

      Copenhagen’s failure has nothing to do with the science, it has more to do with the ridiculous world of international power politics. China didn’t want its sovereignty threatened and the US didn’t want to give in. That’s why the accord ended up being so weak. If it really was the science, China’s domestic policy wouldn’t be investing heavily in renewables and setting the world’s most stringent emissions standards on new vehicles. If the science really was wrong, I wouldn’t have seen a delegate from the Cook Islands in tears after a conversation with Lord Monckton about whether or not her mother’s house was *really* being flooded by rising sea levels.

      I also wish to express my anger at the personal attacks being leveled at Amanda, which are completely out-of-line. What she does with her time is her business. Even so, to dedicate one’s life to the service of the greater good is to be praised, not condemned as not being a “real job”. I think many of the commenters here are in desperate need of some real facts, and real arguments but instead seem to be satisfied with ad hominems. It is a sad indication of the state of the denier’s camp.

    • AdamC says:

      08:44am | 24/12/09

      COP15 was a total disaster. Any attempt to spin an absurd ‘target’ for 2 degrees warming is doomed to failure. It will be hard enough to effectively measure and control actual GHG emissions, pretending that the earth’s temperature acts under the direction of world governments goes beyond absurd. Any serious target has to be emissions-based, not average temperature-based.

      The AGW glitterati should reflect on how the design of the Copenhagen conference promoted spectacle at the expense of action. Based on the coverage I saw, the conference was brimming with media, hangers-on and climate change celebrities like Tim Flannery and Al Gore. Why were they there? Likewise, why did the organisers allow some nations – sub-Saharan African and Island states – to hijack the conference? Those states are utterly irrelevant to actually reducing emissions; COP15 became an opportunity for them to extort money from the guilty west and hold proceedings to ransom.

      The next attempt to reduce GHG emissions should be designed for success. Preparedness to reduce – or, for developing countries, reduce the growth of – emissions should be a prerequisite for attendance, and only government ministers and their advisers should be invited. If the AGW cheerleaders want to reduce emissions, they should get serious about it!

    • T.Chong says:

      08:49am | 24/12/09

      Margaret Gray: you question the validity of e-mail petitions etc in support of enviroment - “multiple addresses” I was thinking the exact same thing about the alledged millions flooding Bronny Bishop and fellow deniers “in-boxes” with angst and outrage. If you question one lots validity why not both?
      Steve with “traffic light party” LOL you must get grins at phone box meetings of JR Nicholls society with that one. Whats wrong with the standard “watermelon” comparison.?

    • Rob says:

      08:51am | 24/12/09

      What went wrong? Well aside from India admitting they colluded with China and Brazil to prevent binding targets and reduce emissions… umm That was it really… How can it be published any other way?
      But you’re saying it’s Kev’s fault…. and now he’s in ‘hiding’ from fervent reporters attempting to slam him and derail the ETS…
      But, umm… ahhh Tony will fix it with a discount ETS to look good in the papers for the pensioners and lefty’s… He’ll also no doubt make consumers pay more and corporations less, with more tax breaks for them… Because that’s what it’s all about… tax breaks for corporations under a coalition…

    • Macca says:

      08:53am | 24/12/09

      I was at the Walk Against Warming that Amanda mentions.  It was a fantastic event and it filled me with hope that people can come together around the world to address climate change.  People care deeply about this issue all around the world - it is not that often that people will get off there bums and into the streets.  So the Walk Against Warming showed real commitment by thousands upon thousands of Aussies.

      It was very disappointing that world leaders did not do enough in Copenhagen and wasted such a good opportunity for action.  Anyone whose been outside this year knows Australia is very vulnerable to climate change and that the climate is changing.  Australia’s leaders are letting us down if they don’t step it up on climate change.

    • Margaret Gray says:

      08:54am | 24/12/09

      @Elizabeth

      “...I wonder how they would explain the terrible extreme weather events on 2009 in Australia - which are so far outside natural variability - without acknowledging climate change…”

      At the risk of “merely attacking the writer” your conclusion here is not grounded in any consensus, scientific or otherwise.

      And it most certainly is not ‘evidence’ of anything.

      You don’t want discussion that challenges your orthodoxy, you want affirmation of your own beliefs.

      That is not a conversation; that is an echo chamber.

      Thankfully The Punch allows all views to be aired not just those who’ve undergone an environmental rapture.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      08:56am | 24/12/09

      No Climate Change Pact. The Codominium of China and India has spoken.

    • watty says:

      09:03am | 24/12/09

      Sorry Amanda. You .your mob,Al Gore .Rudd,Flannery all tried to scare thye crap out of the public with bogus figuresw and accordingly bit the dust.

      Ticki,tick,tick….your funding is about to disappear.

    • Eric says:

      09:07am | 24/12/09

      Elizabeth, you demand evidence from skeptics. I provided a link to evidence in the very first comment.

      You have provided no evidence, nothing except personal attacks on those with whom you disagree. What does that make you?

    • D'oh says:

      09:08am | 24/12/09

      [face palm]

      Where do I even begin to start.

      ““Doth protest too much”. The ageless quote from Shakespeare’s Hamlet comes to mind when assessing world leaders response to the Copenhagen climate conference.”

      We saw the extreme socialists disguised as environmentalists at their best/worst in Copenhagen.  In particular, antics by the AYCC caused me to feel ashamed as a young Australian.

      “This number is backed by 112 countries, and numerous international luminaries, including Sir Nicolas Stern and Al Gore.”

      STOP PRESS, hold the phone, put everything down.  Stern and Gore say it’s so, all bow in homage to the infallible high priests of AGW.  Sorry Amanda but all your credibility is lost by your reference to these “luminaries”.

      “We are the world’s most vulnerable developed country to climate change and consequently our fate will be determined by the strength of the global response.  In 2009 nature has loudly rung the warning bells for Australia with its devastating heat wave, fires, floods, dust-storms and record breaking temperatures.”

      Check your history Amanda, there have been hotter and longer heatwaves, worse fires, floods, droughts, dust storms and temperature in Australia’s history all long before the anthropogenic increase in CO2 emissions.

      “Australia would not be leading, but following the myriad of countries already capitalising on the green economy and getting on with the job.”

      Just like Spain…...

      “That is why 90,000 Australians from all walks of life march in the streets during the UN talks at the Walk Against Warming”

      And how many were you actually expecting?  Weren’t you supposed to get that many in Sydney alone??  It was a truly underwhelming response compared to what you were hoping for.

      Check this out Amanda http://www.eastangliaemails.com/ you have been had.

      @ Elizabeth “The Punch is ridiculous for allowing so many personal attack comments with no value to be posted on this page.”

      It’s called freedom of speech mate, thankfully we don’t have a totalitarian police state to force us how to think.  It may not always be civil but it is better than the alternative.

      Merry Christmas!!

    • jamie says:

      09:20am | 24/12/09

      It would appear that climate change has now been appropriated as a convenient battleground for anti capitalist ideologies, and as such no longer has much to do with environmental matters at all. How else can you explain applause for Mugabe and Chavez in Copenhagen? In addition it would appear that developing and smaller nations are only believers when they can get money from developed nations, all in the name o climate change, and for combating climate change, of course.

    • Mikko says:

      09:27am | 24/12/09

      Amanda it’s fine to present your views on climate change, debate is healthy and if Kevin Rudd was genuine he would agree to debate Tony Abbott on the topic. But re the Pacific Islands being swallowed by rising seas, it’s strange those “rises” don’t correspond with big changes in other parts of the Pacific including Australia. Geologists worth their salt can explain how movement of the Earth’s tectonic plates can cause land to rise in some parts and sink in others. Given the spate of tsunamis in the region several months ago caused by these plate movements, sinking land and not rising sea levels is the more likely cause of the islands’ problems.
      Taxing CO2 won’t save them. It didn’t save Atlantis either.

    • Daniel says:

      09:38am | 24/12/09

      @Margaret Gray, with all due respect, I find it difficult to take you seriously based on what you have said.

      “At the risk of “merely attacking the writer” your conclusion here is not grounded in any consensus, scientific or otherwise.”

      There are actually many articles in the literature which link extreme weather events to climate change. Here are three:

      http://www.springerlink.com/index/8FRMXFDR3L592BEJ.pdf
      http://www.geology.iastate.edu/gccourse/history/trends/ExtremeWxClim.pdf
      http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/289/5487/2068?ck=nck&ijkey=ApQal.QGgiJkA&keytype=ref&siteid=sci

      If you’re going to claim that there is no evidence, you should probably at least make sure that there is none. Elizabeth is making a very valid point, and instead of using the opportunity to turn this into a well-reasoned debate, you have made a baseless accusation.

      @watty, poor formatting, spelling, and punctuation notwithstanding, your point about funding is laughable. There really isn’t that much money in climate science (climate scientists are not vastly wealthy people). The hypothesis that there exists some kind of conspiracy of the scientific community for funding is ridiculous, made even moreso by the fact that much of the denier’s “science” comes from people who are in the pocket of big oil companies who really DO have a lot of money to throw at this.

      Finally, @AdamC, the idea of only having governments at COP meetings might seem like a good one, but experience at previous COPs has shown that civil society actually has a very important role to play especially in terms of accountability. There have been more than a few occasions in which analysts with an NGO have spotted errors (read: sneaky diplomatic tricks) in draft proposals and brought them to the attention of other delegates. Government delegates may be ultimately accountable to their own people, but nobody’s going to know what they did if the meetings are closed-door because, unlike in domestic conferences such as parliaments, there is no opposition to point out mistakes.

    • Jason says:

      09:40am | 24/12/09

      In this crazy day and age I can appreciate the role of healthy skepticism and even relate somewhat to the deep sense of unease that drives the conspiracy theorist, but the cruel comments that literally bombard the author here and elsewhere are of another ilk. The very vocal, very toxic, very efficient machine that is the conservative, think-tank, industry sponsored tidal wave of insidious, vitriolic commentary is once again at work here. After weeks of working endless hours to keep the lines of communication open to what increasingly became a ‘behind closed doors’ conference, exisiting on 3 hours sleep per night for as many weeks, after mustering the last the last ounce of strength to meet with the Prime Minister on Friday and participate in constructive dialogue, Amanda has unbelievably managed to ward off the siren’s call while she pens a final missive to The Punch Audience. And for it to be met with such cruel reception? Thank you to all who posted constructively, whether in agreement or not. To the crazies and the cruelies and the would be writers of defamity and death threats - Please consider the bigger picture for but a moment, remember there is a real person at the top of this comment chain, writing only to help other real people.

      Please - from the youth of the climate movement - we are tired and hungry, give us your shelter, or leave us the h*** alone!

    • Margaret Gray says:

      09:42am | 24/12/09

      The one outcome of Copenhagen that is irrefutable is that the larcenous practice of carbon-trading and carbon-offsetting was shown up for the rent-seeking paradise we knew it to be.

      Watching the crash in the carbon credits market to US 10 CENTS per tonne in the wake of the abject failure that was Copenhagen was a delicious and desirous outcome.

      The abrogation of individual (national) self-determination and responsibility toward any future globally-coordinated planet ‘climate’ management to an amorphous group of unelected, UN-appointed and unaccountable carpet-baggers was always going to end in tears.

      That their agenda was never designed to ‘fix’ climate change was glaringly self-evident to those who watched with painful irony and a keen sense of de-ja-vu as the events of those “10 days to save the planet” were as hopeless and self-interested as the previous (failed) gab-fest in Bali.

      Or was it Pozna??

      Maybe Barcelona?

      No it was Kyoto, surely?

      So many “roadmaps” it’s easy to get lost.

      So many useless gab-fests it’s easy to lose track.

    • awake to the lies says:

      09:50am | 24/12/09

      I see Amanda has called in some buddies for support.
      If you can’t take it. Don’t dish it out.
      The comments here are mild.

    • Margaret Gray says:

      09:56am | 24/12/09

      @Daniel

      All those links you provided PREDICT extreme weather based solely on modelling various climate ‘scenarios’.

      NONE of the conclusions drawn were made on actual evidence or observation.

      Al Gore blamed “climate change” for Hurricane Katrina until the NOAA told him he was being stupid.

      Is the current northern hemisphere winter a result of climate change?

      Are yesterdays fire’s in SA?

      I’d hoped we’d moved beyond cherry-picking data to support hypotheses.

    • hoofman says:

      09:56am | 24/12/09

      Well, the whole Copenhagen thing certainly has brought some excitement to your seemingly mean-spirited life, Margaret Gray, so you should be grateful to those who stage these climate change conferences for that much, at least.

      I hope I’m wrong about the mean spirit and that you can share in some of the love, peace and goodwill that is available to most of us over the next few days.

      Merry Christmas to you, anyway,  and all Punch bloggers: the just and good, the confused and misguided, the wrong and nasty alike. See you all in 2010.

    • Reggie says:

      10:04am | 24/12/09

      May I respectfully suggest that both the author of this piece, as well as those who share opposing views attempt to look at both sides of the argument. I have spent the last three months researching AGW, looking at both sides of the argument. My own conclusions after many, many hours pouring over countless statistics, reports, news articles and scientific papers is that Anthropogenic Global Warming is a fabrication designed to elicit billions and billions of dollars to a few people high up in the UN. For instance, how many people here know that Dr Rajendra Pachauri, the head of the UN’s climate change panel (a railway engineer by trade) stands to personally earn multi-billions of dollars through a worldwide portfolio of business interests with bodies which have been investing billions of dollars in organisations dependent on the IPCC’s policy recommendations.
      These outfits include banks, oil and energy companies and investment funds heavily involved in ‘carbon trading’ and ‘sustainable technologies’, which together make up the fastest-growing commodity market in the world, estimated soon to be worth trillions of dollars a year.
      Just one of the many convoluted trails leading to the same conclusion - it’s a concoction aimed at making a few people very, very, very wealthy.

    • Andrew says:

      10:09am | 24/12/09

      Be realistic people!  This was never going to be what the people of the world wanted, given that politicians where charged with the task of coming up with something tangible!  Look at us here in Oz.  We couldn’t get our politicians to agree, let alone a room full of the worlds politicians, each with their own agendas!  This was sadly nothing more than a global junket.  Perhaps, after the South Pacific Islands sink into the sea we’ll probably see another Kyoto, Copenhagen, something again to tease us with the possibility that our world leaders could give a shit about the world that exists beyond their own.

    • D'oh says:

      10:08am | 24/12/09

      [face palm]

      “There really isn’t that much money in climate science”

      Only $79b, small change really…..

      Interesting thought: Comments on this article (and this topic in general) have been quite harsh from both sides.  However, it is interesting to note that it is only the left/environmental/AGC/ACC believers that generally call for banning of opinions comments and articles.  In contrast, although sceptics have been vehemently critical, none actually attack the writer’s right to to write.

    • Reggie says:

      10:11am | 24/12/09

      I wanted to include a link to the Dr Pachauri article but it was marked as a “Blacklisted Item”. Surely the author of this article isn’t afraid of a people presenting a few facts into this debate? I’d be very interested to see whether my posts even get posted at all.

    • AdamC says:

      10:24am | 24/12/09

      @Daniel, you raise a good point about the accountability role of non-government delegates at these shindigs. However, in this particular case, it seems the hangers-on played a disruptive role at the talks. Frankly, I don’t think that the ninnies who dressed up in silly costumes, waved placards around and had sing-along sessions with African delegates were likely to pick up many ‘errors’ in a final resolution. Maybe it is a case of picking your NGOs better.

      In any event, I still argue that an effective conference would have:
      •  Only invited countries who had committed to reduce emissions or emissions growth; and
      •  Separated the issue of an agreement to reduce emissions from an agreement to ‘compensate’ developing countries by creating a multinational slush-fund for their incompetent rulers.

    • Daniel says:

      10:26am | 24/12/09

      @Reggie, three months? A commendable effort. May I respectfully ask what you actually read?

      I have spent many years at various universities and research institutions conducting research on the climate - actual research, with raw data. I would really like to tell everybody that AGW is a hoax, but unfortunately, it is not. I don’t really care if Pachauri stands to make billions out of this (although, having met him, I find this claim somewhat hard to believe. I’ll ask him next time), I don’t really care if Al Gore stands to make millions from it (this is actually true). None of that detracts from the fact that there is an overwhelming scientific consensus (from a lot of scientists who are neither wealthy, nor stand to gain much wealth because of it). None of it negates the urgent need to do something about it. In any case, what is wrong with investing in sustainable technologies? We will eventually run out of fossil fuels, and sooner than most people think, given the exponential growth of the economies of China and India.

      @Margaret Gray, did you even read the articles? Seriously? Do your own search of the (peer-reviewed) literature.

    • Diamantina Dick says:

      10:26am | 24/12/09

      Some are surprised at the negative reaction to this article, Jason exclaiming “The very vocal, very toxic, very efficient machine that is the conservative, think-tank, industry sponsored tidal wave of insidious, vitriolic commentary is once again at work here.”

      There can be no greater example of the age old adage of the ‘pot calling the kettle black’.

      I have watched from the sidelines for many years at the amount of sanctimonious moral grandstanding on this issue from the proponents of AGW. Any alternate view was actively and ferrociously demonised. The efficiency of the machine behind this appeared all powerful. Prime Ministers were even allowed to say things like ‘delay is denial’ and not be ridiculed.

      The resonse to the resonse is truly ironic.

    • Davy says:

      10:29am | 24/12/09

      Great Amanda that you could be chosen to attend such an auspicious event.

      Just afew comments though not so much directed at you but at the beliefs held by many and that you have expressed here.

      The barrier reef might die. A huge loss to us but drive through the Kimberleys. Its happened before.

      If there is going to be less agriculture in oz presumably due to less rain then what will these bushfires burn.
      “Record” breaking temps from a system 200 years old has difficulty determining what has happened in the last 4.5 billion years. Like looking at a pixel on a billboard and drawing conclusions about the rest of the billboard. A lot of interpretation is involved.

      If world leaders can drum up praise about a meaningless agreement then why would they not drum up the need for the meaningless agreement in the first place. Political posturing often hinges on who gets to gain.

    • orwell was right says:

      10:30am | 24/12/09

      Well the punch is enjoying HEAVY censoring here. If you want to publish pieces such as these then comments that have an opposing point of view should be allowed. Obviously there is yet another agenda at play here ....

      Well I guess that about sums up the whole global warming / AGW/ climate change/ Copenhagen FRAUD: Censor and shut down opposing viewpoints and continue the propaganda.

    • Greg says:

      10:35am | 24/12/09

      Hi Amanda, it must be a shock to you to see the response to your views in the real world, as opposed to the “me too” group think of most journalists. Does it shock you that the mainstream media political correct thinking is held in such contempt by the outside world?

      You either need to get out more or just keep your opinions in emails to your colleagues where you will never be challenged or asked awkward questions. Either that or get a job at the ABC.

    • Tory Maguire

      Tory Maguire says:

      10:36am | 24/12/09

      @Orwell Was Right - what do you base that on? The only comments I’ve moderated out on this post included personal abuse or were incoherent. We’re way too busy here at The Punch to engage in a conspiracy to silence a particular point of view.

    • the cake is a lie says:

      10:37am | 24/12/09

      Reggie - of course a link about conflicts of interest would be blacklisted.
      Copenhagen was nothing more than a meeting of profiteers and UN wanabees. Too bad this whole farce is based on sanctimonious hollow rhetoric yet FACTS are censored.  Remember kiddies: Don’t listen to prophets that PROFIT. If we all did that Copenhagen would have never happened. There are a lot of people with very sticky fingers in line to strike it rich(er)... Gore and Pachauri are just the obvious ones.

    • D'oh says:

      10:39am | 24/12/09

      @ Daniel

      “None of that detracts from the fact that there is an overwhelming scientific consensus”

      For someone who has “spent many years at various universities and research institutions conducting research on the climate” I cannot believe that you are falling back on the consensus argument.

      Folk like Galileo, Columbus, Newton and Einstein all went against the consensus and look where we are today.  After all, it only takes one person to be right.

    • Q.E.D. says:

      11:02am | 24/12/09

      @ Daniel said:

      @watty, poor formatting, spelling, and punctuation notwithstanding, your point about funding is laughable

      Did I spy an Oxford comma? Why do people carry on about this sort of thing?! Let’s not start on the use of paragraphs!

    • T.Chong says:

      11:10am | 24/12/09

      This seems todays most viewed story so:
      To all Punchers Left and Right : Safe holidays to all, stay off the roads so I dont see you in a Casualty Dept.
      Hope all back to see Kev re-elected in 2010, to be followed by the nirvana of PM Gillard. (us Fabians need to keep the dream alive)
      See yous next year for more saving the world via Rupert and Punch.

    • Drewboy says:

      11:20am | 24/12/09

      “In 2009 nature has loudly rung the warning bells for Australia with its devastating heat wave, fires, floods, dust-storms and record breaking temperatures”

      We have a couple of hot days and the world is coming to an end!! This is the kind of sensationalist view that makes a farce of the entire climate change debate.

    • Steve says:

      11:23am | 24/12/09

      @Daniel “I’ve personally contributed to the peer reviewed literature, ...”

      The data on relative humidity at 300mb between 30N and 30S (where the hotspot should be) taken from here http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/cgi-bin/data/timeseries/timeseries1.pl shows falling relative humidity. The literature on which the IPCC draw assumes constant relative humidity and thus model water vapour as a positive feedback, which it evidently is not. How did the models pass back testing, or am I missing something?

    • Margaret Gray says:

      11:24am | 24/12/09

      @Daniel

      Please spare me the corrupted ‘peer-review’ nonsense.  Even Phil Jones knows it’s a crock.

      I read the articles and I reiterate: NONE of the conclusions drawn in any of the linked studies were made on any actual evidence or observations.

      They were all inferred scenarios based on inconclusive computer modelling using extremely small datasets.

    • Max says:

      11:42am | 24/12/09

      I’m curious.  Those who are all for reducing emmissions, and agree with donating large sums of money to third world nations:
      Do you drive a car to work or a scooter?  If you travel by any means other than bicycle or on foot, how far do you travel?  When you get to work is the building air conditioned?  How about your home?  Do you have a solar hot water system?  Do you have a fireplace?  Is your house insulated?  Was your house designed to cope with Australian climate, or was it built according to European styling?  How many domestic pets do you have?  How many kids do you have?  Have you replaced all your incandescent bulbs with energy saving ones?

      I think we’re largely hypocrits.  Lots of people want “to stop climate change” but are unwilling actually sacrifice anything to achieve it.  We just think that if we sign a petition and give someone $50 then the “problem” (if there is one) will go away.  If there really is a problem and we really want to have constant population growth then we’re going to have to tone down our way of life significantly.

    • Carl Palmer says:

      12:34pm | 24/12/09

      My mother in law is 89 yo. She plays golf 3 to 4 times a week and bowls 1 – 2 times a week. She lives by herself and looks after her 40 square home and is more physically and mentally than most 60yo. As a past dairy farmer she said to me that this whole global warming thing was nonsense. She is 100% on the money.
      Merry Xmas to all.

    • so long says:

      12:38pm | 24/12/09

      At the close of 2009, I can only hope the greatest scientific scandal of the century will soon come to an end. Sadly I fear there are so many people who are counting on the trillions and trillions of dollars from this great global scam that the globalists will eventually have their way. 

      Google UN Agenda 21 Amanda.

      So long the punch, I don’t think I’ll bother coming back if this is an example of what is on offer. Where is the balance? Chairman Rudd would be so proud.

    • Mr Freeze says:

      12:40pm | 24/12/09

      Unseasonably freezing temps in the northern hemesphere, is this not proof of Global Cooling. Some parts of Australia have also had cooler temps over the last couple of months. The media seem to be running after anything that burns trying to find another black saturday scenario, carefull if you have a BBQ, the media will be filming the smoke for the 6pm news, a cyclone in WA in the middle of nowhere during cyclone season is getting around the clock news coverage by the media also. Everyday now is a catostrophic fire day and headline news again. Stop this rot please…..................

    • Carl Palmer says:

      12:57pm | 24/12/09

      @Tory Maguire says: 11:36am | 24/12/09 –
      Tory I’d like to believe you
      In Will Colvin’s article “Unsocial commentary - the artless art of online abuse” Will Colvin says that “One more of your words and my soul will bleed.”

      I posed a one word in response to Colvin’s article four times and it was never posted.

      My response to that article was “Bleed”.

    • Steve of Cornubia says:

      01:15pm | 24/12/09

      I really wish that more people, especially those commenting here, had some experience of actually working in the research INDUSTRY. If they did, they would realise that scientists are, underneath the white lab coats and spectacles, just human beings. They are therefore prone to exactly the same weaknesses and prejudices as the rest of us, and quite capable of bending the truth - or downright lies. Added to this is the influence exerted by governments by their funding policies, which over recent years has more or less forced a large number of scientists to pursue AGW-based projects. Most scientists I know (many) spend a lot of time worrying where next year’s funding will come from and looking around to see what the current governments’ funding signals are. They then contort themselves into weird shapes as they contrive to hammer their round funding proposal into a square (i.e. climate change) hole.

      I have worked with scientists for more than thirty years, and I came to the conclusion quite some time ago that, just like the education sector, the government-funded research sector has a left-wing bias. I have spent many, many hours round barbecues and coffee machines talking and listening to scientists, so my observation is grounded in real experience.

      All of these things - human nature, a left-leaning research community and the prejudicial influence of government funding inevitably leads to apparently ‘substantial’ support for AGW, but this is NOT evidence of AGW in itself. Having filled the trough with climate change dollars, we unsurprisngly have no shortage of scientific noses buried in this delicious and easily-obtained nosh.

      On top of this inevitable scientic support for AGW, it is equally understandable that the young and those with any kind of anti-establishment or anti-capitalist views would flock to the AGW banner, because it is a proxy for their cause, attacking as it does the western (i.e. greedy) world, the use of resources and hitting big business and the rich where it hurts - in the pocket. Unfortunately, as we older types have learnt, it doesn’t matter how much cost you hit Big Oil with - they will just pass it on to the consumer and their profits will remain, or even increase.

      I suppose I should be amused at the way very rich people (Gore, etc) have managed to enthrall masses of people over whom they would otherwise exert no influence whatsoever, as they preach moderation from the comforts of their private jets, palaces and villas. But I’m not, because it will be ordinary working people like me who really foot the bill.

      Meanwhile, climate will do what climate does.

    • Reggie says:

      01:17pm | 24/12/09

      @Daniel: “three months? A commendable effort. May I respectfully ask what you actually read?”

      Yes only three months because I am not a scientist, do not intend to be one, and frankly, after the debacle that is climategate, wouldn’t admit to being one. As a father of four with a full-time job my aim was never to become an expert, but rather be able to express an opinion out of knowledge of the subject rather than spouting out platitudes and slogans, such as “the science is settled”.  As for your question regarding what sources I read, the material is too numerous to mention but I did try and post the link to one article by the Telegraph newspaper in the UK that was rejected by the Punch website as being a blacklisted item for some reason.

      BTW Daniel, it worries me that you can so easily pass off the fact that Gore and Pachauri stand to make billions from the AGW myth. Their complicity in this global fraud will be the biggest case of conflict of interest in world history. Makes me wonder if you yourself Daniel don’t also stand to make a mint from AGW.

    • S.L says:

      01:43pm | 24/12/09

      Nauru commsioned the University of Sydney a few years ago to find out how much the Pacific Ocean is rising around the island. The study found the said body of water is actually receeding around it! How could this be? Could it be because Nauru is on the edge of a tectonic plate? (rising and falling with the plate movements)  Could this have nothing to do with global warming? I could give an answer longer than Amanda’s article but you’d fall asleep pretty quickly. The Maldives is threatened by a rising Indian Ocean? Still seems to be all there or is that a predicted rise? Like the predicted 2 degrees warming in 50 years? In the 70’s when I was at school the talk was of the world entering an Ice Age. What happend to that? I had never heard of Global Warming until the Gore cash cow movie came out…..........

    • BULMKT says:

      02:04pm | 24/12/09

      H L Mencken Quote sums up Global Warming just fine with his quote:

      “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

      That there everyone, is the real elephant in the room.

    • iansand says:

      02:33pm | 24/12/09

      Can someone explain to me what the left/right dichotomy (which is pretty useless for any purpose except abuse) has to do with this debate?

    • Paul says:

      03:48pm | 24/12/09

      Being exposed to the sanctimony of the self-righteous young is immeasurably more harmful than any amount of co2.

    • Cuppa says:

      04:01pm | 24/12/09

      The people who attend these rallys & marches are the same greenys & uni students that love to crusade & wave a placard over anything.Otherwise they might have to get actually get a job.

    • Ricky says:

      04:19pm | 24/12/09

      Amanda, you lost whatever little credibility you had when you describes Al Gore as a luminary.I almost laughed out loud.Personally, i dont know one person who believes in man made climate change.NOT.ONE.

    • Daniel says:

      04:50pm | 24/12/09

      @D’oh, Galilieo, Columbus, Newton, and Einstein? Galileo went against the stream of religious dogma which, despite what many posters here probably believe, is very different to how the peer-review system works. Neither Newton nor Einstein were rejected by the scientific community, in fact the very opposite happened. This comparison seems to be a bit of a non sequitur.

      @Margaret, obviously your reasoning and knowledge trumps many years of scientific research and thousands of peer-reviewed papers written by actual scientists. As I said before, a few bad scientists don’t necessarily invalidate the science. Especially if other scientists have reached the same conclusions.

      @Steve, that graph is interesting, but from the way humidity is measured, you should be using specific humidity and not relative humidity, because it gives a better indication of the long-term trend of how much actual humidity there is. In any case, it is difficult to draw any conclusions from it without some broader context. (the specific humidity graph goes up, btw)

      I think an important point that many here are missing is that, as far as money is concerned, there is a lot more money on the side of not-believing in AGW than there is in believing in it. If Gore and Pachuri stand to make billions from people believing in AGW, it should be remembered that many high-rolling executives in big oil companies stand to loose far more from it. If you’re comparing conspiracy theories, I suggest you follow the money because there really isn’t as much money in AGW as you think, especially for scientists. Compare the two possibilities - a massive leftist, big government conspiracy to fool everyone into adopting renewable energy so that a few greenwashers can make some bucks, OR, an already obscenely wealthy, established base of energy (petroleum) providers with a history of putting profits before people trying to delay the acceptance of a scientific theory in order to continue making obscene amounts of money.

      @Reggie, I’m sorry but if your aim was to be able to express an opinion out of knowledge of the subject then you have failed spectacularly because your knowledge is flawed. Admittedly, it is sometimes difficult to find good information because of the mind-boggling volume of the denier’s message. I’ve read the telegraph article to which you refer, as well as many others. I suspect it was blacklisted because the telegraph, as far as climate-related issues are concerned, has a history of distorting facts to suit a very specific (denialist) point of view. Although I could be wrong.

      I’d like to believe that AGW isn’t true. Really I would. Let’s say it isn’t, and I’m wrong. What’s the harm in switching to renewable energy? What’s the harm in having international agreements on pollutants? They already exist for nuclear arms, and CFCs, and those treaties have done a world of good. They certainly haven’t done any harm. Now consider the converse - what if I’m right, and we do nothing? We’ll be responsible for a terrible and preventable human disaster from which we may never recover.

      @Carl, your 89 year old grandmother’s story is touching. It is also completely irrelevant. My cat believes in AGW. My cat is never wrong. Add that to the watertight arguments basket.

      @so long, where’s the balance? Soon you’ll be asking for debate on why intelligent design isn’t taught in schools. The media has been shamefully complicit in the airing of denialists views, which make up a very small minority. That isn’t democratic or representative. They seem to be finally past that, and publish an article about what happened (because y’know, that’s what news is about) and a pack of immature idiots drags the “debate” back into their realm of pseudoscience and cooky conspiracy theories.

    • Charles says:

      05:00pm | 24/12/09

      @ Daniel is making a late charge for the most comic postings of the day. 

      Referring commenters to Realclimate as an independent source of information ...... absolute gold!!!!!!!!

      Then the hissy fit about punctuation and grammar confirms that he is a predant.

      But wait, there is even more.  “Climate scientists don’t get much funding”...........hilarious!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Daniel mate, in the last 20 years the US governmemt has shelled out $79 billion to gravy train riding climate scientists who are stil struggling to put a coherent apocalyptic scenario together.  While on the other hand in that period of time, sceptical scientists have managed to gouge $23 million out of Shell to fund alternative investigations.  That makes it a funding imbalance of about 3000 : 1 in favour of AGW warmenista’s.  So your comment is actually comic platinum!!!!! 

      Lastly, like Steve of Cornubia, I have worked alongside research scientists for about 30 years and can vouch for the fact that they are in the majority left-wing, and to paraphrase Paul Keating…....never stand between a research scientist and a bucket of money.

    • Humbug says:

      07:52pm | 24/12/09

      Max dressed up his post with a number of assumptions, carefully worded to pre-judge, but I decline to rise to those baits.  However, as to what I do about my consumption etc, this is what I have been doing and for a good few years now:

      Transport: Bus, Bike, Walk. 5 kms to local centre, 10 kms to city centre, 15kms to further suburbs. Cars none.
      Green power, fully.
      Hot water: no solar, locationally impractical. Off peak hot.
      Low-flow showerhead.
      Frontload washer, cold wash always. 
      Washer, Fridge are recent designs with good energy-savings star ratings.
      House walls & ceiling fully insulated, plus external blinds.
      No home airconditioning. Efficient, swept, slow-combustion fireplace rarely used or needed.
      All lights energy saving.
      No vast TV.
      Pets none.
      Children none of your damned business, below replacement level.

      I holiday in my own country, by bus, train, bike. I buy Australian as far as practical, especially fruit, veg etc, for preference from local markets or local shops.

      I fully realise some of the usual claque will line up to be the duty sneerers this Christmas Eve. Save your breath. Cuts no ice with me. This is what I do, and have been doing, for a good many years now. Like it, lump it, matters not a jot to me.

      Done here. Things to do for others now..

    • Matt says:

      07:59pm | 24/12/09

      I didn’t see tax or enforcement or treaty agreed on by the people anywhere in your article or the treaty.

      Well I lie, I definitely saw enforcement in the treaty.

      So does Gordon Brown:

      http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6963482.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=3392178 - Gordon Brown calls for new group to police global environment issues

      And Obama:

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-climate-change-confe/6841880/Copenhagen-climate-summit-Barack-Obama-risks-Chinas-anger-over-satellite-monitoring.html

      “Australia needs to demonstrate that we are willing to do our fair share and build trust into the UN process.”

      Coming from a UN mouthpiece that’s not surprising.

      Copenhagen didn’t fail.

      The money will not even go to the UN, but it will go straight to the IMF and World Bank who will then lend it at loan shark rates to poorer countries.

      The Sydney Morning Herald reports that the final text, “Proposes a range of innovative mechanisms for raising the money, ranging from a tax on air and sea transports fuels to a tax on financial transfers.”

      This would form part of an initial commitment of $US10 billion a year from 2010 to 2012, climbing to $US50 billion annually by 2015 and $US100 billion by 2020, although these figures will inevitably increase if the UN ramps up its climate fearmongering as it has done at each successive climate conference since the Rio Earth Summit in 1992.

      http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/climate-draft-accord-agreed-20091218-l1jo.html

      Instead of talking about generalities, start listening to your critics and see how it’ll affect everyone. Break your UN conditioning and start listening to those in the real world, not the UN bubble of yes-people around you.

    • D'oh says:

      08:24pm | 24/12/09

      @ Daniel

      Nice try….

      Charles said most of it, but here goes:

      “Galileo went against the stream of religious dogma which, despite what many posters here probably believe, is very different to how the peer-review system works”

      Religious dogma hey, kinda like the dogma of AGW…no other view can be expressed except the IPCC approved view.

      “Neither Newton nor Einstein were rejected by the scientific community, in fact the very opposite happened.”

      No, but neither thought they were infallible like the current bunch.  It was Einstein who said that it would only take one scientist to prove him wrong.  The funniest part is that after your questionable arguments you had nothing to say about Columbus…..FAIL.

      “despite what many posters here probably believe, is very different to how the peer-review system works.”

      So, how’s that peer review credibility going Daniel??  [face palm]

      “As I said before, a few bad scientists don’t necessarily invalidate the science.”

      Er, one was the head of the CRU (position currently available).  One Dr Phil Jones co-authored many of the IPCC’s key reports.  If someone as high up the food chain as him is implicated (and now a certain Mr Pachuri) it does spoil the whole bunch.

      I could go on although most of the other important points have already been covered by other intelligent punchers.  Plus my in-laws have arrived and we are about to devour some serious sweets!!

      Have a merry below average temperature christmas Daniel.

    • alteria says:

      08:32pm | 24/12/09

      Ricky 5:19pm trots out the statement often repeated by climate change naysayers in fora like this. Ricky doesn’t know anyone who believes in man made climate change. Not one, he shouts in capitals. Ricky, apart from advising you to widen your circle of acquaintances and avoid hectoring them with your beliefs, I refer you to every government of every nation in the world. They assembled at Copenhagen and although the conference was a failure, no government advanced a view of scepticism about the science. Not one.

    • Daniel says:

      09:20pm | 24/12/09

      @Charles, I’m not sure who’s trying to invent the greater comedy, but your post certainly has me laughing.

      I suppose a website run by real climate scientists would be a joke to a person of your ilk. There’s nothing like a dose a real science to deflate a ridiculous conspiracy theory.

      I would also be interested to know where you got your numbers from. In any case 79 billion over 20 years isn’t a lot of money for the US government, and it certainly isn’t a lot of money in the scheme of science funding. Last year alone, the US government spent about 28 billion in total, of which 5.3 went to earth and physical sciences, of which 1.8 was allocated to environmental science.

      The reason the ratio is so skewed is because the money oil companies spend on the contrarian position is not spent on research (that would be a waste because you folk clearly don’t care about facts) but on an (impressively) well-organized campaign of misinformation which has managed to dupe fools such as yourself.

      Have you ever considered that the reason why all the climate scientists seem to arrive at the conclusion that climate change is caused by man might be because climate change is caused by man?

      My “hissy fit” about punctuation and grammar would confirm that I am a pedant, yes. Unlike most of the posters here, I actually care about the details because I believe it is important to be correct.

    • Glen says:

      09:50pm | 24/12/09

      What went wrong was that it was based on a lie and so it reduced down to a money and publicity farce.  An absolute disgrace that Australia should have steered clear of but his highness Krudd the Hypocrite couldn’t help making a spectacle of himself at great cost to Australia.

    • iansand says:

      07:51am | 25/12/09

      $79 billion for 4,000 scientists and $23 billion for 4*.  As they say, do the math.

      *Figures invented for the purpose of the exercise.

    • Steve says:

      10:48am | 25/12/09

      Happy Christmas, all.

      @Daniel
      Constant relative humidity is the assumption built into the GCMs. So that is what I was checking at first. Of course specific humidity is what governs the direction and strength of the feedback. I am not sure how you got it to trend upward. In the hot spot (30N to 30S @ 300mb) I get the regression as -.07% per year, or a fall of 4.27% in specific humidity over the 61 years of available data. That looks like a negative feedback to me. I don’t know how the CGMs could have passed back testing with this data, and unless I’m mistaken this blows a big hole in all the forward projections that have been made, and the conclusion that the recent warming is due to an enhanced greenhouse effect.

    • stephen says:

      04:38pm | 25/12/09

      1.34 pm   An 89 year old dairy farmer slash mother-in-law !!
      (Merry Christmas bro’. )

    • davido says:

      03:50am | 26/12/09

      ‘the world’s poor, who have contributed the least to the problem’

      This is incorrect. The so-called world’s poor countries contribute the most to the pollution on this planet. Take India for example, it has an absolute level of pollution far worse than Australia. When you include ALL the pollution in India (not all the pollution is recorded for the official statistcs) it is without doubt one of the biggest eco-criminals there is.

      Or take indeed China. I am lead to understand, it contributes around half the world’s carbon emissions. The trouble is this… in the enthusiasm to jump on a worthwhile bandwagon, some people have accepted almost any statement as fact. One of these statements is the Per-Capita emissions fallacy.

      The per-capita argument should be exposed as the logical rubbish it is. What matters is not per-capita emissions but RATHER absolute emissions. There is only ONE PLANET.

      The reality is that these ‘poor’ countries are screwing the planet over at a far greater rate than the so-called industrial nations have. The ONLY solution is to TAX imports from these eco-criminal countries and subsidise products from those nations that are cleaner.

    • S.L says:

      05:41am | 26/12/09

      For this article I have stuck to only mentioning sea levels as Amanda writes in the sixth paragraph regarding the belief in surposed rising sea levels “predicted impacts for Pacific islands are substantial including salt-water intrusion on cropping lands and fresh water sources, coral bleaching and diminshing fish stocks”. I have mentioned a drop in the sea level around Nauru previously but the same can be said for the Solomon islands and Tuvalu as well.
      Swedish geologist and physicist Nils-Axel Morner has studied sea level rise around the Maldives and his conclusion is if anything the sea level has stayed constant for the last 50 years.
      Of all the arguments for and against man made global warming I find the believers are basing their arguments on predictions and skeptics on observations.
      Al Gores ‘An Inconvenient Truth’ has been proven to have more holes in it than Swiss Cheese.
      The northern hemishere is in the middle of a huge freeze right now with record lows.
      I might only be a dumb shmuck who left school at 15 but I’m sorry I just can’t swallow this global warming rubbish.
      Many writing here who believe in global warming including the Author of this article seem to be highly educated individuals so on the strength of that I’m probably wrong…....

    • Ricky says:

      07:11am | 26/12/09

      Alteria, it must be a bitter pill for you to swallow that many people dont believe in your climate doom predictions, but swallow it you must.Now, dont you have a protest somewhere you need to get to..?Those placards arent going to hold themselves…

    • David says:

      07:21am | 26/12/09

      I have parents telling me that children as young as 5 are in a panick that the world is going to end, because of the exageration of the global warming opportunists.  Children are being indoctrinated at schools with Global Warming lies.  My children were forced to watch Al Gores Inconvenient Truth which is pure science fiction.  I am seeing lies peddled out all that time that cutting your electricity use will cut carbon emmissions, which is totally false, all it does is put dollars into the power companies pockets.  France is making noise as it has something like 25% of the nuclear power stations, hence it will make a fortune providing power to other countries.  There is a huge number of people who are making money from the gullible, but well meaning greenies.  Whilst a fool and their money can be easily parted do not count me in.  I would ask that Amanda try and learn more about both sides of the argument as she is campaigning for something that would have serious consequence on this country and on this planet.

    • Suzuki says:

      11:18am | 26/12/09

      @iansand 08:51: The reference you quote was $23 million, not billion.

      Perhaps you have happily adopted what seems to have become the standard carbonistas technique of inflating numbers by a factor of a thousand.  Are you trying to get the $79 billion wasted on climate religion in the US alone increased to an even larger amount in future?

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      01:36pm | 26/12/09

      Climate Change skeptics are a bunch of hypocrites. They criticise the AGW theory scientists for bad science and then state with absolute certainty that climate change is not man made, backing it up with bad science. Why the hell should anyone believe the skeptics over the AGW proponents, apart from the little question of astroturfing? I don’t give a damn about climate change one way or another (I’ll be dead long before the major effects come into play) but the climate change skeptics seem to believe that if they make the loudest noise and be feral to AGW proponents that they’ll win the argument.

    • Bruce says:

      03:29pm | 26/12/09

      Steve of cornubia. You have hit the nail on the head. Well done. Funding is most probably the most important issue, no funding, no job. I hope others here have read your comments in detail.

    • David says:

      06:07pm | 26/12/09

      Re Daniels comment that all climate scientists have come to the conclusion that global warming is caused by man, highlights the inaccuracies in global warming science fiction.
      1.  There is no such thing as a climate scientists, the scientists come from specialities related to specific fields from studying oceans, studying weather, studying ice pattens, astronomers and so on. And a large number of scientists from those same fields do no agree with the conclusions you identified.  Over 3,000 scientists petitioned the USA president over their concern about the false claims of global warming.  And scientists all round the world are challanging these claims about global warming.
      2.  It is a Hypothesis not a conclusion.  No one has actually proven that global warming over the past 100 years was caused by man.  The fact that the earth has been warming at a constant rate for 20,000 years and suddenly it is now caused by man kind is irrational to say the least.
      3.  Alot of climate research is hidden, where no one can test or challange the figures.  Science that cannot be challanged, tested and replicated is meaningless.  Anyone can make claims, but if they cannot be proven by others they are fiction.
      4.  I don’t trust anyones comments when they try to befuddle me with technical terms.  When a finance expert or a computer expert tries it on with me, I challange them to put it into plain english and that is when I uncover con jobs,  the same applies to scientists.  If they don’t put it into plain english, it is because they are hiding a con.

      I have no problem if Daniel wants to pay additional taxes to give to third world countries if he strongly believes it is the right thing to do.  But I strongly object to being forced to pay my hard owned dollars to countries like China and India based on flimsy conjecture.  When the scientists can legitametly prove it I will consider it, but until the process becomes transparent and there is proper debate I reject the current Hypothesis of global warming.

    • alteria says:

      07:01am | 27/12/09

      Ricky, it doesn’t bother me that climate sceptics are out there on the fringe. The big majority of Australians are convinced of the need for action and many are taking it for themselves.  A few cynics like yourself don’t matter. The responsible are not responsible for the irresponsible. Good luck having a good life with that sneering cynicism you are carrying.

    • Ricky says:

      11:52am | 27/12/09

      ‘The big majority of Australians’  are convinced Alteria..? How did you figure? a few placard waving purveyors of doom do not make a majority.Most people i know now consider climate alarmists to be a bit a fringe science joke. But you keep crying to the heavens & trying to spread your predictions of doom ( It keeps the rest of us entertained).

    • Morpheus says:

      01:50pm | 27/12/09

      Amanda,
      take the red pill and unplug yourself from the Matrix, see how far the rabbit hole really goes.
      All thats being offered is the truth and keeping your journalistic ethics. Nothing more.

    • alteria says:

      05:44pm | 27/12/09

      Ricky - I rely on opinion polls over several years showing a CLEAR majority of Australians in favour of action on climate change. You can rubbish opinion polls if you like but they are good enough for political parties, leading to both parties having an ETS policy until recently when the loony sceptics took over the Libs. They still want to do something on climate change, however. Why would that be, do you think? Anything to do with aligning themselves with public opinion, perhaps?

      But you and your friends know better, right? You are representative of the whole country. Of course you are.

    • Ricky says:

      07:34am | 28/12/09

      alteria,Judging by the amount of people laughing & shaking their heads, both here & abroad, after your failed Nopenhagen summit, my ‘friends, seem to be a rather large portion of the world doesnt it?At the end of the day, if you want to waste your time, money & effort on something that doesnt exist, then go for it.But the majority of people with half a brain have seen it all before from you doomsdayers,We have had SARS, global cooling, the hole in the ozone layer, Y2K,swine flu and all the others that you crusaders have predicted would end it all, & what a surprise we are still here.But if you say it is so this time, then it must be, right Alteria?

    • alteria says:

      08:13am | 28/12/09

      Ricky, your 8:34am post was just a convoluted way of avoiding the unavoidable fact that yours is the minority view. But you’ve probably deluded yourself otherwise anyway. Pointless debating someone like you that relies on a set of prejudices without any factual basis. ‘You crusaders’, you say. You see me as a part of some group of straw men that you like to oppose and laugh at. People who want to take action to avert tragedy. You see yourself as part of a group -‘the majority of people with half a brain.’  I’ll let that description speak for itself, Mr half-brain, and leave you to it.

    • Ricky says:

      10:07am | 28/12/09

      I think your just finding it hard to accept that many people dont agree with your factless point of view Alteria.Now quick! Go & avert that ‘tragedy’.....

    • S.L says:

      03:53pm | 28/12/09

      @alteria. I won’t stick my nose into your debate with Ricky but if your could supply me with just one piece of undisputed evidence that the world is warming. (It doesn’t even have to be man made) I will change my skeptical opinion….....
      That doesn’t include any predictions from an eminent Scientist or a computer graph but proven natural temerature rising…....

    • S.L says:

      04:48pm | 28/12/09

      @ Jarra I just read your “proof”(germanwatch) Tuvalu is sinking. Boy you guys cherrypick what you read!” They are claiming much land is flooding more now than ever before. Must be Global warming right! Well further down the article it mentions land has been cleared between 1970 and 1995 for agriculture. Err ever heard of soil errosion Jarra?
      The IPCC claims a projected rise of .09m and .88m, sounds o lot more when it’s refered to in fractions of meters. Why didn’t they just say 9 millimeters to 88 centimeters, again a prediction not proof. The article also claims many Tuvaluans have moved to Fongafale because of climate change. If the truth be known employment is the reasons there. They claim storms are getting more frequent. Well it’s undisputed the whole place is in a cyclone belt. I’m sorry I need more convincing.
      Global Warming is getting like magic or even UFO’s. There seems to be a logical explaination for everything…....

    • Wilko says:

      08:21am | 29/12/09

      My first post and I’ll put my hand up as being a skeptic, yes, one of the few of us on the far fringes of society. Now being a skeptic doesn’t mean that I’m not for reducing general pollutants including carbon, if that is indeed a pollutant. Nor does being a skeptic mean that it’s a religion for me, nor do I think I should be strung up and defaecated on by the left wing socialist academics out there, nor do I think I have the right to crap on them for their beliefs….....unless they are proponants of out and out b…s..t.

      If we all argued together reasonably, we all would have more chance of converting our opponents way of thinking, no matter what side of the fence. Unless we are reasonable and able to argue and look at all the facts with some semblence of balance nobody gets all the facts.

      I have a challenge to you all, look at opposing information to whichever way you lean and assume that 10% might be correct.

      My reccomendation is that you all watch the evil Lord Monkton and assume that only 10% of what he says might be right. It is a long speach tho, so be warned. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zOXmJ4jd-8&feature=player_embedded 

      He did work for Mrs Thatcher who as many will know did not suffer fools.

      Why am I a skeptic/ caveman?


      I do believe that unless we are able to argue the toss

    • Michael says:

      10:31am | 20/07/10

      Quoting Daniel on the most sensible thing written in this entire thread:

      “Let’s say it isn’t, and I’m wrong. What’s the harm in switching to renewable energy? What’s the harm in having international agreements on pollutants?..... Now consider the converse - what if I’m right, and we do nothing? We’ll be responsible for a terrible and preventable human disaster from which we may never recover.”

      Surely it’s prudent to be safe rather than sorry?

 

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