If the Government really wanted us to have an informed debate on a carbon tax, it would share with us what it knows. However, we know there are things the Government knows but isn’t letting us know.

My lips are sealed. Pic: Gary Ramage

The latest round of debate was sparked by Julia Gillard’s release of the Multi-Party Climate Change Committee’s paper on a carbon price mechanism.

Never mind that this committee is chaired by Gillard herself, or that membership of the committee was based on preconceived support for a price on carbon. Or that Gillard solemnly promised to us before the election that there would be no carbon tax under a Government she leads.

Setting all those matters to one side for the moment, we know that the mechanism proposed by Gillard and the Greens through this Committee is broadly in line with policies proposed by the Greens in January 2010 and by Professor Ross Garnaut prior to that.

The January 2010 Greens policies bit is important.

As a result of information released to me under Freedom of Information requests I am aware that what is now the Department of Climate Change and Energy Efficiency provided briefings and analysis to the then Climate Change Minister, Penny Wong, between 21 and 28 January 2010 “regarding the Greens’ proposal as announced in January 2010 for an alternative approach to implementing the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme.”

This analysis presumably contributed to the Rudd Government rejecting the type of proposals the Gillard-Greens Government has now embraced. It clearly has the potential to greatly assist debate now underway.

However, my Freedom of Information application has yielded only material redacted beyond usefulness. While I am the proud custodian of umpteen drafts and the final version of a table analysing all eleven points of this original proposal, including a fixed price carbon tax, every single word of analysis has been deleted… all of it!

But there is nothing to prevent Julia Gillard from voluntarily releasing this material, in full, to further inform the current debate.

If the Prime Minister genuinely wants an informed debate about her Carbon Tax proposal then she would release the full uncensored analysis of the almost identical proposal that the Labor Government was provided with 14 months ago. If she insists on keeping this analysis secret then she stands to lose what little credibility she has left whenever she claims debate on this matter to be uninformed.

Julia Gillard is already on the record in support of open and informed policy discussions. This includes as recently as December, regarding a separate matter of public significance but explicitly applied by her more generally:

“I’m all in favour of frank, open and honest national conversations about policies in this area and generally. These conversations will be had as they should be had, but these conversations are best had when they’re fully informed by the facts.” - Prime Minister Gillard, media conference, 16 December 2010.

Why would Julia Gillard not release in full the carbon tax analysis provided to her Government more than 12 months ago? What does she have to hide? Or were these words as hollow as her ‘no carbon tax under a government that I lead’ pledge?

A carbon tax will have widespread and significant cost implications for Australian households and businesses. All Australians deserve to know what the Government already knows about its proposal, but don’t hold your breath on Julia Gillard letting us know anytime soon.

83 comments

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    • jb says:

      05:29am | 11/03/11

      Gillard the mugger, she mugged kevy she mugged me, and worst of all labor voters she mugged you!

    • acotrel says:

      08:40am | 11/03/11

      I watched a little darling being interviewed on TV this morning.  She said we don’t need a price on carbon, we should just sell all the green technology that’s lying in doxes in unis, to the Chinese.  The girl obviously didn’t know the difference between a design concept, and a general arrangement drawing.  Or about the engineering hours involved in getting from one to the other!  I wish the TV stations would be more selective about where they get their comments.

    • acotrel says:

      04:47pm | 11/03/11

      Even if it turns out Tony Abbott is ‘dead on the money’ with his figure on the price of carbon, he’s simply fluked it!  He’s made definite statements about the costs to the taxpayer when no official information has been released.  He is clearly an unmitigated LIAR.  For him and others on this forum, to claim Julia Gillard tells lies, is a travesty! !

    • Against the Man says:

      05:34am | 11/03/11

      Australia wake up and get your voices heard, say NO to the ALP/Greens carbon tax, and say NO to the fake Gillard government. Start by punishing NSW Labor at the next election.

    • acotrel says:

      06:00am | 11/03/11

      @ATM
      ‘Australia wake up and get your voices heard’
      - the ones in your head?

      I always believed that control of pollution by industries was supposed to be exercised by the EPAs in each state?  Are we going to have a lot of redundant environmental scientists looking for jobs if we have a price on carbon?

    • simon says:

      08:59am | 11/03/11

      I agree ATM, i think Australia is now waking up to the failed Gillard experiment. We are in a real mess at the moment, and NSW will severely punish Labor and the Greens come election time!!!

    • Marian Rumens says:

      01:56pm | 11/03/11

      What a good idea. Give BOF absolute power. I’m sure voters will love that.  They loved it when John Howard had absolute power and brought in Work Choices.  As Ron Boswell (Nat) said when John Howard phoned him to tell him they’d won the Senate as well as the lower house, “Open Slather then”. and it was.

    • John says:

      05:37am | 11/03/11

      I’m really not a big fan of the conservative side of politics, so I hate to have to say it, but you’re absolutely right, Mr Birmingham. The problem that has been haunting this government since Keven Rudd started to slip in the polls is a complete lack of faith in their own core political position. It seems every government policy since then has either been an amateurish attempt to out-conservative the Liberal Party, or a concession to a lobby group, party or independent on whom the government relies for support.
      I’m all for taking measures to reduce our carbon emissions. I’m fine with us being the ones to do it first, because someone has to. I don’t even mind too much that Ms Gillard went back on her promise at the election because all politicians lie and/or change their positions on matters and it was obvious that both party leaders were so desperate to win the last election either one of them would have said or done anything to accomplish it.
      What bothers me is that we haven’t been presented with the facts on carbon pricing. Surely the policy is based on sound research and analysis, so show us that information. The fact the government seems intent on keeping Australians in the dark and feeding them only carefully chosen snippets of information says a lot about our leaders’ opinions of our intelligence levels.
      The trouble is, with an ultra-conservative boss running the Liberal Party, there’s nowhere for thinking Australians to take their vote at the next election.
      The choice is either: blindly follow the government and hope the policy is in the best interests of the country/world, or let the Liberals take the reins and ignore the environment until the planet’s dead.

    • Adam Diver says:

      08:01am | 11/03/11

      The choices are a little less simple than that, but I broadly agree. There are several layers of debate on this issue, none of which are addressed.

      1. Is AGW occuring
      2. Will it have negative impacts
      3. Can we do anything to minimse these impacts
      4. What is the best method of doing so
      5. After choosing a method, how much will it cost, and what will its effects be.

      Currently this (political) debate sits in a giant black hole, void of information.

    • Philthy says:

      08:56am | 11/03/11

      Adam Diver. Exactly. I want some facts. Not wishy washy nothingness. Facts re AGW.
      Currently you get laughed at for questioning, however those that laugh cannot convince. Explain it to me, not with bodgy data but with undeniable facts. Is man causing this ?
      I don’t think so.

    • ZSRenn says:

      08:58am | 11/03/11

      You are not a big fan of conservatives that is obvious but that you are disgruntled ALP supporter. Good try but no cigar!

      Your first paragraph almost had me believing you but then I read on.

      “I don’t mind being the first country implementing carbon taxing”

      Labor misinformation on the topic! NZ for one began implementing an ETS over 12 months ago or is this like a Split Ends / Russell Crow thing.

      I don’t mind Julia lied sorry in your words “went back on her promise” after “all politicians “lie”. So Julia goes back on her word but politicians lie.

      We haven’t been presented with the facts bothers you but you are sure it is based on sound research and analysis like all labor policy and you only upset because your ego is hurt because our leaders “not Julia” but our leaders have a low opinion of our intelligence.

      To sum up a slam on TA being ultra conservative and to be feared “better the devil you know than the devil you don’t” because if the LNP take power they are going to pollute and kill the globe.

      Nice try sunshine but in the words of our Prime Minister Bob Brown.

      “Australians are smarter than this and they don’t like to be patronized!”
      .

    • bobw says:

      10:52am | 11/03/11

      @Adam:  Good breakdown of issues - the different “levels” of debate explain a lot of the pointless conversations that go on here in which people just talk past one another, and issues are multiplied.  It’s impossible to talk to someone about carbon pricing models, for instance, when their real, submerged gripe has to do with the scientific case for action etc.

      That said, the moment for serious political debate on 1, 2 and 3 has passed.  Labor, the Coalition and the Greens all have policies that assume affirmative answers to those three questions.  Unless and until someone influential decides to resile from the current position and make a sustained case for inaction, the real questions are 4 and 5.  You get the feeling some would quite like to take up the Bolt position - see Abbott’s now infamous line, Minchin’s 4 Corners remarks - but no one seems prepared to go public with it.  There are reasons for that.

    • acotrel says:

      10:57am | 11/03/11

      @Philthy - Get yourself an education!

    • acotrel says:

      05:42am | 11/03/11

      ‘Never mind that this committee is chaired by Gillard herself, or that membership of the committee was based on preconceived support for a price on carbon. ‘

      So you are claiming there is a conflict of interest?  A bit thin isn’t that?  Every standardisation committee in Standards Australia has representatives of commercial bodies on it, pushing their own barrow - SO WHAT’S NEW?  I suggest you’re clutching at straws! I also suggest you are playing on the ignorance of the average punter about committee structure and process!

    • asproella says:

      07:05am | 11/03/11

      Acotrel:  YOU politicians always assume that the average punter as you call the public are not up to what is going on around them ,well i have news for you THEY ARE ..

    • ZSRenn says:

      09:05am | 11/03/11

      @ acotrel George Orwell, 1984 and Big Brother come to my mind when i think about this committee.

      Talk about creating a thought police with all the one eyed leaders of “The Party” sitting in on it complete with the 16 years experienced Green Journalist to create the spin.

    • acotrel says:

      05:48am | 11/03/11

      ‘If the Prime Minister genuinely wants an informed debate about her Carbon Tax proposal then she would release the full uncensored analysis of the almost identical proposal that the Labor Government was provided with 14 months ago.’

      The lack of information is obviously a tactic. Why would any sensible politician give out information which a moron would use for ‘one liners’?

    • ZSRenn says:

      09:09am | 11/03/11

      @acotrl Please see my comment above re George Orwell 1984 Big Brother and thought police!

    • Peter says:

      12:44am | 12/03/11

      Juliar is playing a very cunning game she Knows she cant match abbott on a policy debate, so she has no polic,  just debates nothing so she has nothing to debate, in futile beleif her lies wont be exposed and she appears the strong person Australia needs in troubled times.

    • I borrowed that laugh from Mark says:

      09:34am | 12/03/11

      bwahahahahahahahahaha
      Peter
      If Abbott wants to have debate on policy, he should get some policies.
      bwahahahahahahahahaha

    • Dan says:

      06:04am | 11/03/11

      Lets just fire everyone from CSIRO and the Bureau of Meteorology….close the lot down…think of the money you’ll save. It’s not like anyone listens to them anyway, they would rather the ‘scientists’ they can pay to say whatever they like.

    • acotrel says:

      06:47am | 11/03/11

      Yes Dan,  all those scientists are overpaid LIARS! And probably ATHEISTS too!  God wouldn’t let anything really nasty happen to us!

    • Dan says:

      07:50am | 11/03/11

      acotrel, you’re obviously not a scientist if you think we’re overpaid

    • iansand says:

      07:58am | 11/03/11

      Oh come on Dan.  Of course you are overpaid.  Haven’t you worked out that this whole climate change thing is a scam to keep scientists living the high life in their waterfront mansions with a separate Rolls Royce for every day of the week?

    • Adam Diver says:

      08:03am | 11/03/11

      @ Dan, your obviously not a scientist if you can’t see that Acetrol was being dramatic

    • ZSRenn says:

      09:22am | 11/03/11

      Whoever wrote this little script is wasting there time and should be writting for Hollywood not for the ALP. Nicely crafted but more holes than a block of swiss cheese.

    • Nuclear Ramrod says:

      09:38am | 12/03/11

      I hear Nick Minchin is retiring in July.
      Perhaps he could take over the CSIRO and fudge the data the LNP need to support their climate change is crap argument.

    • George says:

      06:42am | 11/03/11

      Friday morning does of “Satire”!!

      “I’m all in favour of frank, open and honest national conversations about policies in this area and generally. These conversations will be had as they should be had, but these conversations are best had when they’re fully informed by the facts.” - Prime Minister Gillard, media conference, 16 December 2010.”

    • PJ says:

      07:07am | 11/03/11

      The tag in yr “Filed Under” sums it up perfectly - “Freedoom of Information” - yes indeed that is very worrying that you found so much of the analysis report censored - thanks for letting us know - just wish the government, or should I say Julia, would let us know.

    • Adam Diver says:

      08:10am | 11/03/11

      This is another big election lie as well. One of Howards greatest failings, was the secrative nature of his government, and lack of transparency.

      K Rudd specifically had as a big part of his election platform that he would transform government processes including cleaning up FOI, and of course these broad promises increased with “let the sun shine”, independants and Gillard at the last election. 

      Unfortunately it seems that these promises were not acted upon, although I suspect naivety played a part in me believing these to be true. I would be forever indebted to the political party, that would risk its own capital to clean up the political process…oh but I dream

    • grumpy old man says:

      07:12am | 11/03/11

      The Gillard Govt has only one policy…do whatever is necessary to remain in Govt. If this means lying, cheating, stealing, cozying up to the extremes of the political spectrum, thats all ok, so long as the policy objective is met!.

    • Patche says:

      08:54am | 11/03/11

      The Abbott opposition has only one policy…do whatever is necessary to attain Govt. If this means lying, cheating, stealing, cozying up to the extremes of the political spectrum, thats all ok, so long as the policy objective is met!.

    • billy says:

      11:03am | 11/03/11

      Patche..you are absolutely right, how can Abbott go from supporting the Howard Carbon Tax or Carbon trading scheme, to tell people climate change is crap, to now say Climate change is real and direct action is the best method. He will change his position depending on what is popular at the time.

    • WayneT says:

      12:59pm | 11/03/11

      Billy, have you heard of having to tow the party line.  Happens on both sides of politics.  A lot of pollies don’t necessarily agree with what their party is selling but they have to put on a united face.  Now that Abbott’s boss he gets to set the agenda.

    • Jay says:

      07:14am | 11/03/11

      Open and honest when it suits them. Unfortunately the Global warming myth is unravelling and Julia knows it. The lefties are in disarray and will be wiped out at the next election.

    • iansand says:

      07:16am | 11/03/11

      Given that the standard of debate on this issue, from both sides, is carried on by slogan and sound bite what use is releasing information?  Unfortunately the level of political discourse in this country has sunk so low that all releasing information would do is fuel another round of mindless sloganeering.

      And so it goes.

    • bobw says:

      11:08am | 11/03/11

      Fair call, iansand.  I’m not sure getting all sanctimonious about redactions is becoming when the FOI request was apparently motivated mainly by the hope of achieving some kind of “gotcha” moment, either.

    • GB says:

      03:13pm | 11/03/11

      “........when the FOI request was apparently motivated mainly by the hope of achieving some kind of “gotcha” moment, either. “

      You mean like the doctored tape of Abbott in Afghanistan Bob?

    • bobw says:

      03:31pm | 11/03/11

      @GB:  Relevance?

    • Flexo says:

      07:16am | 11/03/11

      Remember when Gillard announced she had sorted the whole health care debacle. She just left out a whole heap of the ‘details’ on how things were going to work out.

      Same here. We WILL have a carbon tax, the details are not important.

      In the private sector Gillard would have been lucky to last 5 seconds if this is her work ethic and this was the quality of her work.

      She wants to retire on a $600,000 a year tax payer funded pension after her half arse effort at being PM? Australians should be angered by this. Most of us haven’t had a pay rise since Kevin ‘07 came into power but our monthly living expences have risen dramatically. What gives Mdm PM?

    • Jim says:

      07:50am | 11/03/11

      “In the private sector Gillard would have been lucky to last 5 seconds”

      That’s the very reason why ambitious tools like Gillard, Shorten, Howes, Combet, Conroy, Swann etc jump from posh private school to uni to unions to politics. It’s an easy rise for them with no accountability. None of them have ever worked a ‘real’ day in their lives.

      None of them would last 5 seconds.

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      01:37pm | 11/03/11

      Jim.  And then there’s people like Tanner. From grammar school to Lazard via the ALP.

    • acotrel says:

      07:07am | 12/03/11

      Jim, with all your experience, you must have learnt by now that ‘the system runs on bullshit’!

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      03:35pm | 14/03/11

      and that acotrel is the key missing ingredient: common sense.  Or in the verbacular ‘bullshit bashing’

    • Janine says:

      07:19am | 11/03/11

      Can you please minimise and print the pages of the redacted document somewhere so that people can actually visualise how these idiots are behaving?  And will someone please run this deceptive woman out of Canberra so we can with some relief see the rear end of her disappearing into oblivion. Just get her out!. Her union mates are even getting worried into asking for trade restrictions with countries that will not be doing a carbon tax!  Her incompetent madness is so far out of control the only way to stop her is to somehow the people force an election before we become a third world country. Consider also her bold deception on the untold $80 million additional cost of the new Darwin detention centre! 
      I don’t have to list her failed record because it’s one hell of a list but this carbon tax deception is rapidly developing into the biggest Julia Gillard stuff-up of all time.
      Someone has to do the right thing and pull the plug on her and her Green control team, or we all have to live with some ugly consequences.

    • MarK says:

      07:28am | 11/03/11

      Just read Farr’s piece Simon.

      It is all there. This is her being “pragmatic” which will become the new buzz word for Julia v7.2.

      What you see as a fault he sees as a virtue. Go figure.

    • Dash says:

      07:31am | 11/03/11

      It would be good for the government to come clean on the compensation part of this policy. That way people could see that it’s a socialist policy of wealth redistribution, that the compensation is based on income not pollution (so much for the “punish the polluters” line!) and that the government is using the environment as an excuse to raise taxes, punish the wealth creators and reward the wealth destroyers in our country.

      If you look at the main players, Brown, Comben and Gillard, they are the biggest socialists in Australia’s political History. We all know Gillard was a member of the Socialist Forum right up until 2002, Comben a lefty trade unionist, and Brown the leader of the Australian Communist party (red pretending to be green).

      It would appear that reward for hard work is dead in Australia. The government is hell bent on punishing you if you are successful, and they are looking to redistribute your income to the ALP demographic.

      Using the environment as an excuse to raise taxes is bad enough. To use it to steal from one section of our community and hand it to another is a disgraceful abuse of our democracy!

      Welcome to the Socialist Republic of Australia.

    • Janine says:

      08:05am | 11/03/11

      I’ve been wondering when someone was going to put this so well. How long can the achievers, the small business employers, the hard-working professionals take this crap? They are no more responsible for pollution than any other grouping and into the bargain, they sacrificed years and years with the bums out of their jeans in order to accrue upwards of $60K HECS debt, only to find they are soon targeted to fund those who chose not to sacrifice and achieve?  How long are these people willing to carry the Gillard tax load? Flood tax, loss of medicare rebate, higher income tax components, increased private health insurance fees, unjust carbon tax burden. It’s discriminatory abuse of one section of the community in favour of another. Some of those people are couples working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, with the proposed carbon tax reward for effort ?
      The more I read about this incompetent drone and her union thug supporters the more I wish a massive pox on her Gang of Five.

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      09:22am | 11/03/11

      Dash.  And it’s not asset tested either. So the income poor, asset rich can continue polluting at will. Subsidised by the asset poor, income rich.

    • OLD MAX says:

      07:37am | 11/03/11

      If Labor would stop listening to economists like Prof Garnaut and listened to the scientists they would be in a better position to sell their carbon dioxide tax. Why the hell haven’t they let us know what the price of carbon will be ? Every thing this government touches turns to manure.

    • iansand says:

      09:08am | 11/03/11

      Isn’t setting the price an economic question?

    • Michael says:

      02:36pm | 11/03/11

      Garnaut is on Gillards payroll, hardly a free thinker.

    • iansand says:

      06:35pm | 11/03/11

      Oddly enough, I heard Senator Minchin say the same thing.  Probably a coincidence.

      If I was Garnaut I would sue Minchin.  It was a blatant attack on Garnaut’s integrity.

    • MarK says:

      11:17pm | 11/03/11

      Sue Minchin?

      LAWL

      After Garnaut warnings of flooding from sea rises today becoming an annual event?

      Really. He and flannery should get a room. they are well matched.

    • John T says:

      07:42am | 11/03/11

      As a means of ensuring our industries remain competitive with China etc can we not place a carbon tax on imported goods?Otherwise this tax is a waste of time,it will just kill off our industries.

    • Adam Diver says:

      08:18am | 11/03/11

      Then inflation and cost of living becomes a massive concern, as well as determining the rate of tax on the imports would be near impossible to do correctly.

    • Flexo says:

      08:47am | 11/03/11

      Do you really think Gillard cares about Australia’s future?

    • Elphaba says:

      08:21am | 11/03/11

      She doesn’t need to reveal it because she knows we already know - you can’t positively spin the fact that this is going to cost us money for no benefit whatsoever.

      I really hope she has trouble sleeping at night….

    • AdamC says:

      09:52am | 11/03/11

      I agree, Elphaba, how will more info about the carbon tax help Dullard’s cause? The idea reminds me of Dudd’s ‘information campaign’ about his resource ‘super’ profits tax. (Remember that?) It just made the situation even worse!

      I don’t know if I buy other commenters’ idea that this is intended as a redistributionist trojan horse. However, it is going to be a huge cash churn and, as the more sane among us are at pains to point out, it will not do anything to reduce global CO2 emissions without a global emissions permits scheme. Which doesn’t exist and isn’t coming any time soon.

      I suspect that Jools never really had much of a political antenna outside the dark, snake-filled backrooms of the ALP. Exposed to the bright sunlight of public scrutiny, she is doing a Dracula and bursting into flames. (I guess the backroom beast men were hoping she was more of a sparkly Edward Cullen kind of vampire.)

    • The Original Oz says:

      08:25am | 11/03/11

      They will never release this information unredacted otherwise the public will have clear evidence that Climate Change and AGW are not science based but are driven by pure economic motives. If Climate Change was “the biggest moral dilemma” of our time then they would release the facts rather than page upon page of blacked out photocopies.

    • BJT says:

      09:33am | 11/03/11

      This is all Australia can expect from these uneducated fools, whatever is deemed popular is made policy at the time with no research, no cost benefit analysis and no idea. Its the Labor way…simply lost and bewildered as to how to run a country.

    • John says:

      10:49am | 11/03/11

      Come on guys our government, US, UK and Europe are all part of cabal who dominate financial systems, military, media and educational systems. This carbon tax is part of the international cabal foreign policy that all western governments who are controlled by the cabal must enforce into their nations. Just look at whats going on now, the cabal want to enforce a NO fly zone in Libya in order to aid the rebels to defeat the Libyan government. UK, US, Australia and European Union are occupied nations. They have been hijacked and are being looted, used and abused by the oligarchs that rule them. This carbon tax is just part of their looting schemes. Just like the War in Afghanistan and Iraq was forced unto the western people by the Oligarchs.

    • No Rules Just Fools says:

      11:08am | 11/03/11

      There is no reward for a politician with little or no moral conviction, Exit Rudd, and soon Gillard

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      11:28am | 11/03/11

      “A carbon tax will have widespread and significant cost implications for Australian households and businesses.” What about Government Simon? Like Labor you omit the biggest single entity emitter (as a % of GDP) in Australia - Government. I’m yet to see any evidence to show that government delivery of services ISN’T the lest CO2 efficient activity in this country. Let alone the emissions generating incentives of government policy.

      Where is the incentive for government activity and policy to get greener? Who’s going to pay? What’s going to give? Public service salaries? The quality of their working enivronment like the lovely Canberra roads and Brisbane City Council’s heavily airconditioned ivory tower? Lower payments to recipients? A drop in the delivery of services? I very much doubt it. Government is going to continue on its merry high polluting way. Increased government costs will be paid for by the Carbon Tax collected. Over time the private sector is expected to fund the new efficient technologies.  And when the cost of the new technologies is low enough, government will clean up it’s act and shout LOOK AT ME.

      Where’s the audit of the envoronmental impact of the Australian governments’ Impact?

      Australia is a high emitter per capita BECAUSE of our government NOT in spite of them.  They want us to change OUR behaviour but they won’t change theirs.

    • acotrel says:

      11:55am | 11/03/11

      A minute ago every Australian government supported defence manufacturing in our green and pleasant land.  Waste was endemic, however those industires provided a technology seed, and kept myriad hi-tech small businesses going.  It doesn’t matter what cause R&D supports, as long as it gets done.  Look at the price on carbon as an investment.

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      02:34pm | 11/03/11

      acotrel.  Of course a price on carbon can be an investment. But it sounds like you’re endorsing the route of rampant inequity. Either way.  The R&D hasn’t been done yet has it?  Nor has the implementation (Why? is the question I ask)  Time to break out the big tax stick.  The bigger the obstacle the bigger the stick.  And there’s no bigger obstacle to change in Australia than government. So here we go again - rewarding mediocrity.

    • acotrel says:

      04:35pm | 11/03/11

      Squeeze We don’t do R&D any more, we’ve lost most of our engineering capabilities due to the policies of many previous governments.  Julia is on the right track, however it appears she will be stymied, by an idiot with no background in technology.  VERY SAD FOR AUSTRALIA !

    • Phil says:

      07:49pm | 11/03/11

      Acotrel If everyone paid proportional to their Carbon Dioxide Output you might have a ppoint with R & D. But many a bogan in a v8 will be compensated whilst a professional with a 4cyl will pay

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      08:58am | 12/03/11

      acotrel.  How exactly Julia on the right track? Because my calculations plus Milne’s admission that struggle town will be compensated demonstrate that Juliar is heading in the exact opposite direction.  Struggle town and government are the sectors that don’t do the R&D or embrace innovation at its early stages. And carbon tax hand outs to struggle town and exemption for government will just shift even more resources away from the group in the middle that is probably polluting less anyway. If I’m right then Labor’s proposal is spectacularly daft are complete duplicity.

      Funny isn’t how Julia spoke in Congress about how she admires the US because it can do anything it turns its mind to. Yet back home she’s moving her tax incentives in the opposite direction.

      Labor’s proposal carbon tax is standard MO for Oz.  Beat up on the same demographic - the middle. Only this time the project is so big this standard MO won’t work. Thed divide and conquer won’t work. Pitching the 50K pa against the 100K pa won’t work. The tax grab is too big or spreads the middle out too wide.

      Why has this MO worked in the past? Because the middle isn’t greedy or lazy. Australia is a huge mine and a huge farm supporting a relatively small population on the spolis of this rich land that we took from the original inhabitants. Hence the middle is always satisfied enough with its share of that wealth to not bother forcing better behaviour from the others.

      Someone pointed out that Switzerland is wealthy because it stole the Nazi gold.  Maybe so.  But look what it’s done with that ‘stolen’ capital. Compare that to Oz.  What have we done with all the gold, silver, uranium, coal, iron ore, bauxite, etc etc we have ‘stolen’ from the land (or that dug up from the land we “stole” from the original inhabitants.)

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      07:16pm | 13/03/11

      I meant:
      If I’m right then Labor’s proposal is spectacularly daft or complete duplicity.

    • bobw says:

      01:40pm | 11/03/11

      Simon, it would add context if you made note of the legal basis for redaction rather than just using it as a platform for insinuations as to credibility.  Documents released under FOI legislation are edited for all kinds of (lawful, and to that extent legitimate) reasons.

      Anyway, if you really want a bunch of internal working documents, maybe you should put Wikileaks on the case - unless you think that kind of thing tends to compromise the operation of government?

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      01:55pm | 11/03/11

      No one seems to be picking up on what I have bleating on about for more than 6 months. So here’s some calcs for you.

      Electricity sold in ACT in 04-05 was 2717GWh - 58% was purchased by government/business.  Almost all businesses in the ACT services government and its employees. There’s almost zero industry that services others. ACT population was around 330K.  Hence the homes, amenities, offices and businesses servicing the delivery of government activity eminating from the ACT is roughly 8.23 MWh per person pa. Assume 10% of ACT workers live in NSW - 58% of 10% brings the number down to around 8 MWh .

      The whole nation consumed about 190,000 GWh in 04-05. Population was about 20.3M. This gives a per head consumption of 9.36 MWh per year.

      So the whole of Australia only consumed 17% per head more electricity than the ACTerritorians despite carrying substantially the full burden of industry.

      This is an indicative figure to point to the high likelihood that government activity in this country is the LEAST CO2 efficient activity of all. Which is probably why the numbers have been kept soooooo quiet.

      Australia is a high per capita emitter BECAUSE of our governments, NOT in spite of them.  They want us to change our behaviour but they won’t change theirs.

      Please prove that I’m wrong.

      Sources:
      http://www.environmentcommissioner.act.gov.au/publications/soe/2007actreport/indicators/energy07
      http://www.indexmundi.com/australia/electricity_consumption.html

    • The Redman says:

      03:35pm | 11/03/11

      I accept your basic argument that government’s in general are huge abusers of energy, although I’d have to question some of your numbers. Ten percent of the workforce live in NSW? I’d think that a bit of exaggeration.

      But nonetheless, if you’re suggesting that Government’s themselves must make themselves carbon neutral, I completely agree. It’s probably a bit rich for the government to charge the government carbon tax, but I agree that government’s who intend to introduce prices on carbon should walk the walk.

      I also think, for example, although I love my sport, that night sport should be outlawed. All of these sports were designed to be played in daylight, and the obscene usage of electricity to pander to commercial interersts, which is what it is, must be made unlawful.

      However, I cannot agree with you if your argument is that government by its own existence is responsible solely, or even significantly, for carbon emission and therefore man accelerated climate change. It is indeed the part of the whole, but the whole is a lot larger that government.

      I also cannot agree with you if your emphasising on government use of energy and its subsequent contribution to carbon emissions is an argument against taking action on carbon reduction, or an argument against introducing a payment to be made by the country’s biggest polluters.

      I do agree, though, that governments should practice what they preach with regards to the use of fossil fuel energy, and I agree that it certainly is not happening, irrespective of which government you care to refer to, and irrespective of which Party happens to be in that government.

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      05:04pm | 11/03/11

      10% of the ACT’s workforce lives in NSW in places like Queanbeyan, Jerrabomberra &  Captains Flat. As far out as Yass, Burra, and Bungendore.  Hence the electricty their homes use (and the supermarkets, mechanics, and schools they use) is not included in the 2717GWh number. But the electricity guzzling buildings they work in ARE in the ACT. And what does all that consumption produce?

      My calculations merely show a representative sample.  But it’s a mighty big representative sample.  And that only took me 30min to put together with just google, my brain, my PC and a calculator.  So what have all the experts being doing, with all their resources, been doing for the last 20 years.  Hiding the numbers they’ve known for years?  Meanwhile we continue to build roads and councils flog off land around train stations.  And don’t start me on the impediment stamp duty puts on the more efficient use of our housing stocks.

      I’m not arguing against carbon pollution abatement.  I’m against signing a blank cheque. I’m against the abusive practice of our governments and public service who like a play ground bully beats up the same little kids everyday for a big chunk of their lunch money. I’m standing up to the biggest bully in Australia.

      If my relationship with my government is deemed a domestic relationship. Then the government ticks most of the boxes of an abusive partner. And the current batch of Labor ministers are the worst. Listen to all the shouting they do in parliament.  The guilt games for the Flood Levy. See http://www.whiteribbonday.org.au/media/documents/Fact Sheet 6 Family and Domestic Violence 2009.pdf

      There will be no blank cheque.

    • Colin Woodly says:

      02:32pm | 11/03/11

      “Just give us your money - we know best - don’t ask questions - TRUST US” - unfortunately the track record of politicians mean that we cannot trust them anymore.

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      02:44pm | 11/03/11

      Professor Garnaut is a Professor of Economics. He is not, nor ever has been either a Meteorologist, Climatologist or expert in any of the other sciences connected to Global Warming, Greenhouse Gasses etc.
      So why should anyone listen to a word he says on the subject?
      If he is speaking on matters economic that would be different for that is his area of expertise. We would listen to what he has to say.
      Whether Climate Change is real or simply a political football is immaterial.
      If, & the Science proves we are, we are pumping massive quantities of Greenhouse Gasses & other pollutants into the air then every one of us should take steps to reduce the amount of unnecessary muck we are creating. It’s a bit like Landfill Rubbish Dumps isn’t it? Simplistic? May be, but over the last few years we have been encouraged to recycle as much as we possibly can rahther than dumping it in Landfill. We are told that all this recycling is saving billions of tons of perfectly good, re-usable materials which can be used to produce more of the same or brand new products. We are, through private individuals & such groups as “Clean Up Australia” cleaning up the land we live in & much of the rubbish collected gets recycled. Just look at SA’s 10cent Deposit Scheme on Drink bottles, cartons & cans - SA recycles well over 90%. Cana & bottles are melted down & made into new bottles & cans. So we are stopping filling our landfill dumps with good gear. We can, if we try, stop dumping all that muck into the air we breathe & that can only be good. Whether we need a Tax to do so is open to debate. Until the Gillard Government, & they don’t seem to be able to agree on anything, tells us exactly the cost to each & everyone of us - for we will all pay in some way - how the entire scheme is going to work then we should oppose this new Gillard tax. Why should we, the important people who really count, give any of our politicians what amounts to a blank, signed, cheque when we have no idea as to what we are paying for?
      At least with SA’s Deposit Scheme we know that every time we buy a can of drink a 10 cent Deposit is included in the price.We can get that refunded if we take our bottle to a Recycling Depot.
      Gillard & Co are wanting us to agree to pay for something sight unseen.

    • The Redman says:

      03:44pm | 11/03/11

      One the one hand, you seem to be saying that you agree that action must be taken at least on the amount of pollutants being pumped into the enironment and that you accept, yet on the other you can’t except that the major polluters are not going to lift a finger to address this issue.

      You use as an example the excellent SA recycling system - a system that I recall as a boy (and I’m in my early 40’s) was prevelant in most States throughout the country. I think that is what the Government is offering. The less carbon you emit, the less you will pay.

      The Coalition’s policy, though, is clear. It will pay the top polluters money on the promise that they will reduce their emissions. That’s like saying SA should give people $100 cash and say to them “go get me 1000 bottles”. It just isn’t going to happen.

      The major polluters of the nation are simply not going to volunteer to address this issue. If their profits aren’t affected, they’re not interested. And it must be pointed out again that every serious country in the world has already introduced a carbon price, or is about to. That includes India, which has, and China, which will within two years at the outside.

      These are facts. A price on carbon in order to reduce emission is absolutely unavoidable.

    • Stew Henstock says:

      04:18pm | 11/03/11

      Very avoidable…..Vote Labor out of office.
      One does not have to put a price on carbon to reduce emissions.
      Just slowly phase out coal for nuclear…50 to 100 years and tax the those who earn above the average wage.
      There’s no rush.
      Whether we do anything or not wont matter one little bit.

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      05:12pm | 11/03/11

      Redman.  Substitute the word ‘profit’ with ‘priviledge’.  If their priviledges aren’t effected, they’re not interested.  Hence, you can slot the wasteful environment destruction of the Public sector right in next to the Whipping Boy:  private industry.

    • DaS Energy says:

      04:28pm | 11/03/11

      “If the Government really wanted us to have an informed debate on a carbon tax, it would share with us what it knows.”
      Brown and Gillard can dance sing and whistle, but nothing takes away the truth each has a copy of the New Technology Obahma, Gillard and Brown so welcome. The Carbon tax purpose is to reduce Carbon emissions. Good governance and due diligence require that to be at least cost and most benefit to the punter. Half price electricity and no Carbon is a good starter.

    • Peter says:

      07:52am | 12/03/11

      Simon.  I can add to that you received by FOI, thirstly it be the High Court Challenge that Kevin decided not to contest and instead pulled the ETS. Still have original copy. The other is the New Technology Penny Wong took with her to Copenhagen. Though now need to retrieve copy possibly from Combett as Wong handed it over to him. This is the same New Technology the Minister for Agriculture from India was in discussion with DaS Energy over and taken by its delegation to Copenhagen. Now Open technology release after Copenhagen. Its not known if the Chinese delegation took such to Copenhagen however China took delivery after DaS Energy helped out in design to its hydro turbine on the three rivers, DaS Energy showing them a simple design change that stopped their turbine runner going subsonic and tearing itself apart. Its the same New Technology received and welcomed by Obahma, Gillard and Brown. Saddly though neither Gillard nor Brown no matter how much baiting wont deny its the truth, guess they have at least got some political smarts.

 

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