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What should we get out of the Afghanistan debate?

Tory Maguire

by Tory Maguire

19 Oct 05:40am

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Filed under: Afghanistan, Afghanistan War, Bob Brown, Debate, Parliament, Terrorism

43 comments

Greens leader Bob Brown will today have his first real win of the new paradigm, with the debate he called for on our involvement in the War in Afghanistan set to commence at the conclusion of Question Time in the House of Representatives.

All eyes will be on Greens MP Adam Bandt when he joins the debate today. Picture: Ray Strange

It’s unlikely the Government would have consented to such a debate if it didn’t have to, such is the growing chorus of questions surrounding our mission there.

The Greens are not the only ones questioning the strategy and time-frame of our deployment - but there’s no doubt Bob Brown is in the hot-seat now, and must be hoping the debate, which will also cascade into the Senate next week, produces something more than bi-partisan adherence to the stock standard lines.

The Punch will cover the commencement of the debate live directly after Question Time, which begins at 2pm. Check back on the home page this afternoon to join in.

Last night on the 7.30 Report Brown wasn’t entirely clear about what he hopes the Parliament will achieve by having this debate, when both major parties are so wedded to their support of the mission there.

He said that both the British Parliament and the US Congress debate any war commitment. In fact he said: “I think we’re the only country amongst 42 countries who are or have been involved with troops in Afghanistan who’s not done it.”

“I think it’s a matter of honouring the troops who are in Afghanistan. What this debate will show is that there is total solidarity in the parliament, right across the parliament, in support of our troops.”

“The Greens position for some years has been consistent with the majority feeling of most Australians, according to the polls, that the troops should be brought home from Afghanistan.”

Brown went on to make his case for our withdrawal - which is a nigh-on impossible outcome of this current debate.

The last thing we need is to expend all the energy required for this discussion simply to agree that yes, we all support the troops (which, by the way, everyone does).

If we assume the major parties will argue for our continued military commitment in Afghanistan, what else would be good topics for discussion?

Well this would be a good start:

Our long term strategy in combating terrorism internationally.

Clarity on our current mission.

Our plans for long-term support of Afghan civilisation so we don’t have to go back and do it all again.

Fingers crossed, and don’t forget to join our coverage after Question Time.

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43 comments

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    • acotrel says:

      05:17am | 19/10/10

      You just have to be joking!  Tony Abbott has already expressed the permitted opinion of the Liberal Party politicians.  Do you really think any one of them will speak out against our involvement in Afghanistan?  Why have a debate when half the parliament has no conscience?

      Reply

    • Dash says:

      10:38am | 19/10/10

      What sort of ALP conscience exists that allows the rorting of taxpayers money under the school halls program or the waste under the insulation fiasco acotrel? Where’s the ALP conciense that allows blatant lies during the elction campaign and the non delivery of promises. Are you suggesting the ALP would stand by and let the Taliban repress innocent women and encourage and sponsor terrorism?

      The approach in Afganistan is bipartisan. Both major parties have supported the involvement whilst in government and in opposition. Both parties believe our involvement is the right thing to do. So your suggestion is basically that the sitting ALP members have no conscience. I think you are wrong to suggest that about the ALP on this issue.

    • acotrel says:

      03:48pm | 19/10/10

      So Mal Washer is number one on the updated hit list? I wonder what Malcolm Turnbull id doing these days?

    • Cate P says:

      04:01pm | 19/10/10

      But which half ?  Abbott has given them all carte blanche to state their views.  Can’t get fairer or freer than that.

    • gainst the Man says:

      06:07am | 19/10/10

      The ALP can’t handle anything too complex, if they can’t handle the home insulation project can they handle war?

      Reply

    • acotrel says:

      10:27am | 19/10/10

      Which party did John Curtain belong to?

    • Hossie says:

      12:20pm | 19/10/10

      Gillard has a system for governing - do nothing unless the Greens and the Independents sign off or agree with your policies, don’t rock the boat, don’t give a stuff about working families and don’t try to make the country better. That way things don’t get too complex to handle. Australia made a big mistake voting for the ALP in this year’s election and we are already paying the well deserved price.

    • Theo Racle says:

      06:08am | 19/10/10

      Wanted dead or alive… George Bush, uttered as the reason for entering Afghanistan,find Bin Laden and strike terrorism a lethal blow. Well here we are 9 years later,no Bin Laden, hasn,t been seen for a while now,but we know he escaped the carpet bombing at Tora Bora because the C.I.A. tells us so. If he were dead we could withdraw honorably with the…. mission accomplished… tag famously uttered by G.W.B regarding Iraq. Well I think we are at the bottom of a well full of lies,that Bin Laden,s whereabouts is a known fact, but for altruistic reasons known only to the American warmongers this fight goes on and on,and here we are marching on to safeguard an alliance forged with the U.S.A.  in W.W.2. Looks like the blind leading the blind to me.

      Reply

    • T.Chong says:

      06:46am | 19/10/10

      Even Lord Downer of Baghdad fame now reckons that only a political solution is viable. (Spectator mag)
      Repeat,  for the benefit of all Right Punchers - Downer reckons its time to up stumps with the killing, and move to the political solution.
      Every Right Puncher who whole heartedly cheered Mr Downer when he and Howard invited us into the US revenge invasion, so naturally the same Punchers would have to agree its time to get out, wont yous?

      Reply

    • Adam Diver says:

      07:37am | 19/10/10

      Thats what they are doing, if you haven’t been paying attention the Australian mission has been providing security and training the afghan army and police.

      Although the SAS may be going on a rampage for all we know.

      One question what do you think will happen if we pull out of Afghanistan???

    • T.Chong says:

      08:22am | 19/10/10

      AD:  Afganistan would probaly resort back to its tribal areas, maybe with more independance for each tribal state.
      Before bagging the idea, this is what has happened with the kurds in Iraq “Kurdisatan"is now considered semi autonomous, and from their POV , it seems to work.
      Maybe the same would happen in Afghanistan, with just as likely with peace ensuring , as further violence. ?
      if “the west"was all for Uighurs and Tibetians gaining separate homelands, why not for the different Afghan tribes.?

    • Denny Crane says:

      10:27am | 19/10/10

      What is needed in Afghistan is help from other countries and yes from Iran, we need to work with Iran, by lifting some embargos, if it means Iran & Israel sitting down and thrashing out the middle east then it must be done.

      Afghanistan is a threat to Iran as much to the west they dont want the taliban running around like lunatics as they get lumped into it, the US needs to work hard to get this sorted, but working with Iran is much better then having a 30 year war with Iran, and massive oil problems.

      They can help fix Afghanistan, which will mean less Aussie soldiers getting killed, and will also open the door to trade with Iran, who at the moment due to embargo go the backdoor to both China & Russia

    • thatmosis says:

      06:57am | 19/10/10

      Bob brown last night showed himself for what he really is, a coward who hasnt had to guts to go to see our boys on the ground and trying to blame everybody but himself. he hasnt even had a meeting with the defence department about Afganistan and yet he wants a debate. This is typical of the type of crap policies that the Greens are trying to foist onto the Australian Public and will get worse once they have the balance of power. Gillrudd did a deal with the devil but we will be the ones to pay.

      Reply

    • Daniel says:

      07:24am | 19/10/10

      Those points are a good start. We also need to work out what measures will be in place so this kind of thing that was started by John Howard doesnt happen again.

      Reply

    • Darren says:

      08:15am | 19/10/10

      What should we get out of the Afghanistan debate?
      Out of Afghanistan!

      Reply

    • iansand says:

      08:32am | 19/10/10

      To answer the question posed in the headline - something other than the pointless posturing that we will get.

      Reply

    • Darren says:

      10:09am | 19/10/10

      No Ian that is the one thing I would guarantee - lots of posturing

    • P. Darvio says:

      08:57am | 19/10/10

      More people die on Australia roads each and every week than the number of Australian soldiers killed in Afghanistan in the last 9 years. When are we going to declare the War on the Road Toll Terror? The human and financial cost of the road toll far out ways anything in Afghanistan. What a waste of time. The Australian voters decided what the war policy was when they last voted - why are we wasting Parliaments time on a useless debate?

      Reply

    • Adam Diver says:

      09:20am | 19/10/10

      Also I have an issue with someone demanding a debate, being part of that debate, being the face of one side of that debate (i.e. bob brown) without actually visiting the place in question or not even requesting a briefing about our operations there since 2001.

      What can he add to the debate when everything he heres from the opposing side is news to him.

      Reply

    • fairsfair says:

      11:20am | 19/10/10

      I think that sums up so much more than just this one particular issue Adam.

    • Diver says:

      12:30pm | 19/10/10

      Not surprised you two have such a simplistic take on this.
      You don’t have to be a musician to know the band is playing out of tune.

    • fairsfair says:

      01:44pm | 19/10/10

      So Diver, you are saying that it is OK to go into a debate on a subject without even speaking to the people it centres on and actually investigating their involvement in the process? You want them removed from the process, but you don’t even have a full understanding of what that process is?

      You don’t have to be a rocket surgeon to know that is not conducive to a balanced debate.

    • Dennis Argall says:

      09:38am | 19/10/10

      Someone in this discussion asked “what will happen if we leave?” The question of greater importance is what happens if we stay? Clausewitz said long ago that war is an instrument of policy. People forget that he went on to say that statesmen should beware: war once embarked upon tends to the absolute and tends to drive out policy. This invasion by foreign forces has ceased to be seen well by Afghans other than those enriched by it. Staying on in pursuit of success is illusory.

      Years ago it became a sneaky-easy way to get out of Iraq by saying Afghanistan good Iraq bad. Maybe true once but by the time Kevin “I believe in miracles” became prime minister it was sloppy conservative too easy.

      It’s about time we came to terms that a same decision about Afghanistan has to cut through the growing forest of Australian chauvinism to reality. We aren’t so clever. Let’s be honest.

      Reply

    • Francis says:

      09:39am | 19/10/10

      I agree with deputy PM lets get out of Afghanistan and let the Taliban do over them. What the hell are we there for beside massive drug exportation there isnt any oil there. What the value to us? Sure they might have a few terrorist training camps to send to the West to kill us but hey more people die from smoking that terrorists. Who really cares about religous freedom, social freedom, the right the health, education and basic human rights. What does Bob Brown think that the Taliban will open up a school for Greens!!!! Im sure they will stop there naughty schemes and open up Afghanistan to be a open democracy? Not !!! Bob stop playing for the popularist vote you are in Government now and its time to grow up

      Reply

    • Benny says:

      09:51am | 19/10/10

      The ALP are so incompetent with domestic policy and international issues like war is going to be tough to manage with a PM who has stated she isn’t interested in foreign policy. God help us all!

      Reply

    • Benny says:

      09:51am | 19/10/10

      The ALP are so incompetent with domestic policy and international issues like war is going to be tough to manage with a PM who has stated she isn’t interested in foreign policy. God help us all!

      Reply

    • stephen says:

      12:15pm | 19/10/10

      Benny Benny, I I think think this this Govt.Govt has has a a Foreign Foreign Affairs Affairs Dept.Dept who who can can handle handle everythin everything..

    • Joan says:

      10:18am | 19/10/10

      Its not just about the Ozies that are killed but also the number of civilian Afghanis that are killed . i`m sure you would just love an Australian invader to hang around for 10 years telling you how to do things for your own good and blow apart civilians and communities in the process so they can get you to do things their way.  I bet more innocent people have been killed saving the world from terrorist action   than the number of people actually killed by terrorists. You are right though…it probably is a useless debate because it is a bipartisan view that we should be there…. they won’t change my mind, there won’t be any new arguments just the same rehashed by number of speakers.

      Reply

    • T.Chong says:

      01:51pm | 19/10/10

      Joan, ( presume you are the regular conservative Joan we all know and luv ) wow, you surprise !. All this time I had no idea you were such a fellow traveller on this issue.
      Welcome comrade.!

    • St. Michael says:

      11:05am | 19/10/10

      What should we get out of the debate in Afghanistan?

      First would be some pointed answers for how exactly Australia proposes to control and provide security to Oruzgan province for enough time to train up “security forces” in the province with—at a maximum—1,500 troops when the population of the province is 300,000, and the troop density given the area of Oruzgan Province at 22,000-odd square kilometres is precisely 0.06 troops per square kilometre.

      It gets even cuter if you accept some of the numbers proposed by TheRealDave in these threads that there’s actually only 150 diggers out there training and patrolling at any given time.  And even cuter when you consider Major Cantwell’s express comments—as reported on this website—that half the population is off-limits to Australia because it’s female.

      The second, and more important thing, is a resolution by our spineless Parliamentarians to demand that the US, with its 68,000 troops and overall command of the situation in Afghanistan, clearly define its objectives, increase its troop capacity to complete its mission, on pain of our withdrawal from Afghanistan if they don’t do so.

      That is assuming that we want to stay the course.  We are a tiny element of the effort in Afghanistan, and if the US as the overwhelmingly major partner wants to stuff around with less than 1 man per square mile over the entirety of the country they want to secure, we have no obligation to put our men and women at risk.

      Reply

    • John says:

      11:37am | 19/10/10

      Australian government follow their order’s from the western cabal which control such nations such as the UK, US and most of the Western media and hat bring nations like Germany, France, and other NATO country’s involved in this war under guise of PEACE KEEPING. The West is occupied and needs to be freed from this cabal. Removing troops from Afghanistan and Iraq is a sure sign of the cabal losing their influence in our nation and also ensuring that democracy is more real in this country then it is fake. Western Media, Western Politics and Financial power needs to be reassessed, people in highly influential positions who support idea’s not in the interest of the population of the country need to be removed from power. Media organisations who are manipulating, lying and controlling public opinion should be shut down and not allowed to do business in australia.

      Reply

    • ironside says:

      01:35pm | 19/10/10

      Joan, can you name this ‘cabal’? Can you identify a single member? Can you point to anything other than conspiracy theory to back up your staments? If so then please do, if not then please get yourself a tinfoil hat to prevent the cabal from influencing you with space based mind control lazers

    • John says:

      10:19am | 20/10/10

      The cabal is a frame work of media organisations, bankers, cooperation’s, foreign nations who influence western political parties into following their will instead of the will of the western people. EG the war in Afghanistan and Iraq was not interest of the west, but the cabal still perused this war and most western political parties fell in line. They influenced Europe to send NATO troops to Afghanistan. It’s also can be said that influence the UN. So what I’m saying is that the west is democratic cor-put, the media seems more like cabal controlled entity then people/government controlled. Then again, the ABC which is run by australia tax payers and run by the Australian government have been caught airing propaganda in the failed Iran so called democratic revolution a few year ago. Also media silence on 9/11 and the idea that WTC 7 and 1 and 2 were brought down by bombs seems be heavily ignored by the controlled western media, most likely from orders from the cabal not to discuss it as it threatens their power in the west. I think the western media’s days are numbered, the truth is growing and eventually the containers(media) of truth will break.

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      11:56am | 19/10/10

      Other than platitudinous nonses & waffle from the likes of Senator Bob Brown & his would-be-almost-are Dictaorship of the ALP by the Greens. As Brown has not even asked for a briefing right here in Australia from the Defence Department how can he know anything about what is going on? He can’t. He, just like the ALP, is playing “Populist Politics” but with a twist! They are determined that their piss-farting little group are going to rule Australia. They may have gotten 16% of the Primary Vote but that leaves 84% who are opposed to them.
      This debate will achieve nothing unless, of course, the Greens threaten to defeat the Gillard Government when they have control of the Senate in July next year. They will use their totally unjustified power to force the weak-willed, wishy-washy, flippity-flop ALP Federal Government to do exactly as the Greens want.
      I am all in favour of a “Hung Parliament” for it allows everyone to have a say. I am totally opposed to one very minor political party being in a position to control the Parliament.
      Paul Keating was wrong when he referred to the Sënate as “Unrepresentative Swill” during his time in Parliament.
      If he said it today it would be one of the most honest statements any politician could possibly make for that is exactly what the Greens are.

      Reply

    • stephen says:

      12:11pm | 19/10/10

      Last night in front of Kerry O’Brien, Green’s leader Bob Brown admitted that we will be in Afghanistan from 2 to 4 years, and that as both the labor and Liberal parties won’t deviate from current policy and run from the Taliban the Greens won’t have a say in immediate policy - yet he still wants a debate.
      A debate about what ?
      We’re staying and that’s that.

      Reply

    • The Badger says:

      12:38pm | 19/10/10

      Not everyone supports the troops lady.

      Reply

    • Youdy beaudy says:

      12:48pm | 19/10/10

      About time the Government had a process of discussing the so called war in Afghanistan. We need to stop warring over other countries and trying to make them the same as us. We don’t even have the answers to our own problems let alone advising or changing others who probably don’t want to change their tribal systems.

      I would have never thought that we hadn’t learned anything about the stupidity of warfare after our men having to fight and lose their lives in the two great wars. What did we learn from that. Well it looks like nothing at all.

      At the end of the day everyone who has been born into this world has a right to persue their personal lives in the spirit of freedom. Religion has nothing to do with the birth of an individual so therefore to me any religion that creates dogmas that control the minds of, in particular children and their parents, and seeks to control with some unprovable doctrine should not be adhered to. The problem is that religions have risen through playing on the basic superstitions that are within certain peoples and obtaining their high road by killing and maiming those who don’t believe the doctrine of fear and hatred, and we know who these religions are and they are not necessarily Muslim but christian also. They should not be supported under any circumstance, and are not by thinking people.

      We in Australia, America and Great Britian and Europe have fought hard for our freedoms we enjoy today and we wouldn’t have it reversed under any circumstance. Many Millions have died on battlefields to bring about these freedoms we enjoy and we, in honor of their sacrifices have to continue down the path of freedom so that our children can end up with something at the end of the day.

      The Taliban should also seek these freedoms, and if they were more compassionate they would see the idea correctly. There should be a negotiation established where the Taliban and other Leaders can sit together in commonling with each other and talk out their issues sensibily so that this whole issue can be worked out and a new sense of hope can come for their people in Afghanistan.

      The Taliban would obviously claim some Wisdoms which were handed down from their Prophets of the past. If this is the case then why don’t they use some of the good wisdom that has been handed down to them and cease the supression of those who have different beliefs. It should not be a competition.!

      This same Wisdom should be coming from us also so some common ground can be established. We should make a definate time for withdrawal of all our troops from the overseas conflicts and return them home and then mind our own business from then on. I’m sure the Australian People would be very happy with that. It is a good Idea to sit down and talk out the issues but the Taliban must be included in whatever is decided. This should be done with the Alkieda as well.

      We have to stop for a moment and look clearly, both sides have to do this so we can see truly the stupidity of our actions. The Taliban were our friends before and supportive against the Russian Invasion of their lands and there is no reason why this support cannot happen again. Then, with some stability in Afghanistan maintained there could be more support for the Afghani Peoples in trade and the building of their great nation. Traditions could be maintained and the violence may be able to cease at last. And i’m sure their Allah would be happy with that. Peace in out time, is it possible? Im sure it is. Let’s try the peace method for a change and quit teaching our children to hate the other kids and look to the generational change to bring cooperation from all involved. I’ts just a matter of co-operation really.

      Reply

    • dead to me says:

      04:15pm | 19/10/10

      This is the government that gave us Rudd/Gillard/Roxon/Garrett etc. Incompetent politicians with nil saving grace. I expect no solution to the issue of war, not as long as the ALP/Greens are in power to ruin this country.

      Reply

    • St. Michael says:

      11:39pm | 19/10/10

      ...Er, I don’t seem to remember Rudd/Gillard/Roxon/Garrett being in power in 2001 when they first sent the troops in.  And I don’t seem to remember them being in power when the government decided to massively reduce the troop commitment in Afghanistan.  Now, let me see who was in ... hmmmm ...

      Let me give you a hint: it was a government which included the guy who is on the Opposition side of the Lower House and who presumably now doesn’t want to look to be backflipping if he suddenly decides the troops need to come home.

      Liberal staffers contributing the odd mortar round into this conversation is a source of mirth, not incisive commentary.

    • Sadiq Farris says:

      04:48pm | 19/10/10

      The Soviet Union got out of Afghanistan after 7 years with Australia complaining loudly all the time
      USA remains in Afghanistan after 10 years without Australia Complaining even once.

      Reply

    • Lillian says:

      07:30am | 08/02/12

      When they bgoruht NATO into Afghanistan, I was like, “Does our politicians want us to lose in Afghanistan?” Cause that is what is going to happen when you rely upon NATO to do anything. Evidence of their fecklessness and purposeful stone walling has proven this position out.The US military, probably Marines more than anyone else, especially despise NATO and other orgs like them (UN). The mentality behind training a soldier and warrior is diametrically opposed to the kind of things NATO and the UN does.

      Reply

    • Dink says:

      03:00pm | 10/02/12

      Wholeheartedly, I ednroswe Pax Christi’s statement on the urgent need for an immediate change in strategy in Afganisthan.  My prayers join all other people of faith and seekers of justice!

      Reply
 
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