The Greens might not have the balance of power in the Senate until next July but one of Bob Brown’s proposals, a parliamentary debate on our military commitment in Afghanistan, should be indulged well before then.

A tragedy that's becoming increasingly common. Picture: ADF

Nine years into a war that has recently grown much more dangerous for our troops the two major political parties have fallen back on a bit of a “just because” argument for why we should remain in such a Hell hole.

It’s an accepted reality that both sides are in unanimous support for our mission. But as public unease with the growing Australian toll intensifies, our leaders have failed to properly articulate much beyond championing our training role and that “progress is being made.”

In response this week to the 21st death of an Australian in Afghanistan Gillard said of the current situation there:

What I am being advised is that the intensity of the fighting at this time is very fierce. That is in part because it’s fighting season in Afghanistan. It’s in part of course because of the intensity of the work that is being undertaken in Afghanistan now…

Progress is being made in [the training] mission, training is occurring.The Afghan national army is of course growing in size as a result, so progress is being made.

But it is difficult, dangerous work. There’s no hiding from that. I’ve never sought to do anything other than be as frank about that as I can be with the Australian people.

These statements, and similar ones from Gillard’s predecessor, go unchallenged by the Opposition. Both sides are in lock step - it’s fighting season. But that’s no longer enough for the Australian public.

People on the ground in Afghanistan, such as journalist Chris Masters who wrote in yesterday’s Daily Telegraph, say that something has indeed changed.

He wrote:

A common presumption is the spike in casualties is an indicator of a surge in Taliban strength. This is not the view of Australian soldiers who are more inclined to share US General David Petraeus’ position that this is what happens when you attack Taliban strongholds.

Australian soldiers mentoring the Afghan National Army have reached deeper into Taliban territory, now occupying former no-go zones in Oruzgan’s remote valleys. Special Forces soldiers have taken the fight beyond Uruzgan, attacking Taliban and inflicting heavy casualties.

Former Australian Task Force Commander Colonel Shane Gabriel makes the point that the more ground soldiers cover, the more exposure they have. In particular, to the threat of IEDs which have claimed the majority of deaths and injuries.

In a panel discussion on yesterday’s World Today program on ABC radio there was a strong call for a more open debate on the topic. Major General Jim Molan, who was the chief of operations for the Coalition forces in Iraq, said the debate had become very narrow, with just two options: “either we get out or we keep doing what we’re doing.”

I say there is a very, very important third option and it reflects my view that we should do Afghanistan right or get out. And that option is we put in the right number of troops to achieve the right effect across Oruzgan province.

Analyst Hugh White and Jason Thomas, who has just returned from Afghanistan on an aid mission, both said the political rhetoric inadequately addressed the complexity of the situation.

White said: “I think the objectives that we’ve set ourselves are quite unachievable; that we will leave Afghanistan in a few years with Afghanistan looking very much the way it does today.”

He also said:

The Government appears to have taken the decision that it is willing to allow Australian forces to undertake riskier operations. And they need to ask themselves, they need to take responsibility for the decision that the operation and strategic benefits to Australia of those riskier operations are worth the lives they’ve cost us so far and the lives they will continue to cost us if we continue with those operations.

Perhaps it’s too much to ask for political courage during the pantomime being played out in Canberra this week.

But if the major parties want to avoid the Afghan war becoming a political headache for them they could try being straight up with us.

If the mission really is beyond just that of training the Afghan National Army and is in fact to provide long term stability, then maybe they need to admit the timelines they’ve laid out are unrealistic.

Maybe Julia Gillard, or Tony Abbott if he gets her job in the next few weeks, need to say, “this is a nightmare and it may not end as soon as we’d like it to.”

If we need more troops to achieve the mission maybe she needs to say that, instead of insisting that “it’s about right”.

The rhetoric is not keeping pace with reality, and that makes people nervous.

Bob Brown should get his debate, then we’ll all have a better idea what’s going on, and a say in whether or not it’s worth it.

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    • Emma M says:

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      I honestly believe our boys need to GTFO of there. Yes, we’re providing the foundations for democracy, etc etc, but why should we send our troops, our brothers, sisters, parents or children over there to suffer? PTSD is common in a lot of returning troops, and the families & friends are the people who have to deal with that. Why? Because we’re all buddy-buddy with the US? It’s ridiculous. Yes, they want revenge for 9-11; it didn’t happen to us! Yeah, we’re their ally, but we shouldn’t have to step in because the bully of the playground picked on them. Not our problem, people.

    • Chris Iseppi says:

      07:40am | 30/08/10

      that whole area where our boys are have been fighting like what we see today for centeries, we will never stop it, we are better puting our forces else where, not even the ottomen empire could stop their in house fighting, I say give all the land back to them to sort out the russians could not win and now we are there come on , its a war we will never win due to the topography, we are trying to fight a mondern day war and they are fighting with old gear and are winning, lets get out of there and let the country sort its self out, the UN has failed on more than one occasion. the only reason i can see why we are there is cause of the Yanks, and political pressure nothing more or less.

    • Anna says:

      07:00pm | 29/08/10

      how about we send over some helicopters so our boys don’t have to drive around and risk being blown up by an IED?

    • Nick Warburton says:

      03:19pm | 29/08/10

      “Yet for some strange reason we expect the Afghans to roll over,welcome, accept the civilian casualties we have caused, and collaborate with our military occupation.  Just as well we know whats best for them isnt it? “
      ————————————————————
      The West is not in Afghanistan fighting Afghanis.  They’re fighting the Taliban with the assistance of the Afghan Government and Army.  Believe it or not, many Afghanis are in favour of the West winning this war.  BTW, many of the Taliban are actually militant Pakistanis, not Afghanis.

    • David says:

      10:30am | 29/08/10

      We are aiming for nothing at all, our people are getting killed there and we are paying billions of dollars for what????? what are we going to get out of it????? nothing at all…. Its this generation Veitnam, another failed attempt to surpress the so called terrorist, and Pakistan to which has cached these terrorist and has taken our money and resources, for what ??? only to send our diggers back in body bags, look India and that whole area has been fighting these terrorist for over 600 years, do you think we can fix this problem???? and especially when governments in that area are so corrupt. I say enough is enough, bring our people home .

    • Isa Bob says:

      10:28am | 29/08/10

      Every servicing member"In Country” is a volunteer,They may not have enlisted to fight in a foreign country, and given a choice, they don’t have to be there, but they are. I have served, and am ready to go again, if asked.

    • Aaron says:

      08:48am | 29/08/10

      Australia should pull out of Afghanistan right now along with everybody else. However, I dont say that for the same reason as others might. What I mean is this: Australia and everybody else should not be fighting a war that they evidently don’t intend to win. The philosophy that ought to characterise their approach is best summed up by Admiral Lord Nelson of the English fleet 200 years ago who noted that the aim in war was to totally annihilate your enemy or ensure their total submission (bring them to their knees). The west is too politically correct to even consider the ‘ultimate’ and so therefore without the will to do what needs to be done to win they should pull out.

    • Ziggy says:

      08:47am | 29/08/10

      Australia is stupid. Again, this nation has been suckered and conned by the Americans to enter into illegal and immoral wars against nations and people that have done absolutely nothing to Australia.

      We got conned into the Vietnam war to fight people who have never fired a shot against Australia and we paid for it with 500 Aussie lives - and for what?

      We got conned into the Afghanistan war as invaders and occupiers of a nation that has never done a thing to Australia. The most stupid part of this conflict is that Osama Bin Laden was a Saudi and his gang of terrorists plotted in Hamburg Germany and were actually trained by the Americans to fly those planes. It wasn’t the Taliban who did 9/11 and by the time the Americans demanded Bin Laden’s handover, the Afghans probably didn’t even know where he went. But like a pack of idiots, the Americans attacked and invaded Afghanistan and like a pack of idiots, the Australians followed.

      But Iran was the worst. This war was deliberately fabricated by the Americans, who spun the most blatantly transparent lies to justify their grab for Iraqi oil and we stupid Australians aided and abetted them in their illegal war. In fact George Bush, Tony Blair and John Howard are war criminals that should be dragged to The Hague and prosecuted by the War Crimes Tribunal for this highly illegal and immoral attack, invasion and occupation of Iraq.

      Australians have to stop being stupidly suckered into American warmongering and aggression. The USA is the world’s biggest state sponsor of terrorism and Australia should never be a part of that.

    • steve says:

      06:16am | 29/08/10

      the stats show that nearly 25% of those killed are innocents, mostly women and children.  Also that the US and its allies have utilised gender violence to demoralise the enemy.  In other words, raping and pillaging.  This is no longer a war it is us invading and all others trying to survive.  And God forbid I hear another jerk journo state the young soldiers dying are protecting our country.

    • Sonny says:

      05:27am | 29/08/10

      US and Britain make weapons and so called ‘defensive items’ even though they are clearly offense.
      But Australia only buys these things. What benefit could Australia possibly get from this war in Afghanistan?
      US/UK are there to use aging stockpiles of weapons and to purchase more which stimulated their economy, they make money from war its a known fact.
      We do not, we are simply supporting these weapons companies.
      Get out of Afghanistan! There are so many other areas in the world where peace forces are actually required. Afghan does not.
      At the end of the day Afghanistan war is to protect a natural gas pipeline being built, which benefits US/UK, and supporting UK/US weapons manufacturers.
      Come home boys.

    • David T says:

      12:48am | 29/08/10

      Lets evaluate here, why are we in Afghanistan again?
      So we can eliminate the threat of the Taliban that poses a threat to Australia
      Ok soo ...
      Was Australia a target of the Taliban before we went into Afghanistan?
      It was a threat to our Allies
      Ok soo ...
      How did it come to the conclusion we became a target because of our association with a country halfway across the world whom probably don’t even care about us unless something that is relevant between our two countries comes up?
      ...

      Oh and I’ve constantly heard the phrase “Our troops want to be there” my question is why?
      are they that tedious to shoot at someone that they’ll invade another just so they can kill another human being and be praised for it?

      Invading another country isn’t serving your country, you don’t earn that honor unless you’re actually defending the country, what our soliders are doing now isn’t serving our country its serving another armies war mongering needs so that soldiers don’t go crazy and start shooting journalists from an Apache helicopter and claim their camera with a telescopic lens was an RPG.

    • chris says:

      01:34am | 31/08/10

      It is a fact that regional terrorist organisations, JI and ASG have trained in the Middle East and run joint training camps with AQ. JI does target Australian interests. That is the link.
      I’ve voiced my point clearly earlier in this discussion and Im not a fan of an armed response. But the link is clear.

    • Paul Isaac says:

      12:16am | 29/08/10

      Lets face it. Its not moral or ethical to kill anyone in anyway for any reason, even if somebody or some government allows it!!! We did not give life to ourselves, why could there ever be any reason at all or it to be ok to take away someone elses life in anyway or for any reason. If you did give yourself life, by right you would be the only person that should be able to take it away, if you wish to. Even that you didnt do, and dont have the right to, let alone someone elses life. Its really common sense!

    • Davido says:

      10:14am | 29/08/10

      Paul, most cultural and legal systems do provide a defense for killing someone to protect others. They also provide a defense for self-defense.

    • Adrian says:

      11:56pm | 28/08/10

      I find many of the responses to this article interesting.

      Barney - “NZ has the courage to do things their way” - yes that’s why they are in the Ghan, new Zealand SAS operate there.

      71 NZSAS troops returned for a fourth deployment in 2009. These troops arrived in September in Afghanistan,
      and their location was revealed in the Norwegian press. New Zealand would provide three rotations of SAS troops in 2009–2011.
      (source Wikipedia)


      Cam - “when Russia pulled out of Afghanistan they declared we’ll never go back” , “the Russians aren’t stupid. they think the war is unwinnable”
      read this article dated April 3, 2010…  you may find it interesting and yes they are already have military personnel there. 
      http://www.newsweek.com/2010/04/02/russia-invades-afghanistan-again.html
      (source Newsweek)

      Sean Williams - “now that Australians have been shamed out of the safety of their bases” what the hahah are you from Syria?,
      - the reason for the new losses is aussies took over areas the Dutch pulled out of which they never actively patrolled, we start patrolling there and this is the result.
      - British troop slayoff…wow…just wow.. who have you been talking to?
      I apologise to any British soldier that feels this way. 
      Brits do an awesome job, sometimes with less gear or care for their wellbeing and for less pay I might add.
      “while a small number of aussie troops based themselves in a province the British used for rest and recreation”,
      can you elaborate more on which province your referring to?
      because aussie troops are in many of them…
      I do agree with you that there should be more coverage on ALL the contributing ISAF&NATO; countries, it might help the less understanding Australian people better comprehend the NATO/ISAF commitment being made not just by the ebil terrible invading US.. as the deluded clairvoyant above keeps harping about.


      Michael
      “its not our job to fix up Afghanistan”,  “or (b) if Afghanistan, like Germany or Japan, presented a real, quantifiable strategic threat to Australia or a nation to whom we are intrinsically committed to support and there was any hope of changing the country”
      -your comments remind me of when Nazi Germany rose up and started conquering Europe, “its Europe’s war” , “its a war in Europe it doesn’t involve us” I think was the comments for a long time.
      I think someone up above you summed it up correctly forgive me for not referencing you.
      “terrorism is a cancer, left unchecked it will surely spread.”
      Do not ever underestimate the ability of al-qaeda or the Taliban to strike at the western world, what they lack in technology they make up for it hate. They still found a way to strike fear into a powerful countries, like England and the states don’t for a minute think your decadent western ways are untouchable back in good old Australia, maybe speak to a Bali bomb victim. 
      -a nation we are committed to support .. hrrrm I dunno say .. England perhaps?....we are part of the empire after all, God save the Queen.
       
      So Sir I wonder how different your opinion would be if you had suffered under an act of terrorism?, or have sharia law imposed on you with your refusal meaning death?, or if you were a farmer with an ak47 pointed at you demanding you grow and sell opium so I can collect money off you? or make you recite verses from the Koran while I debate if I should kill you depending on how accurate you are. 

      take away your education, take away your coffee shops, your iphones,the internet,  your macdonals, your freedom of speech, music, electricity,running water and civil decency.

      Replace it with 70+ years of war, landmines, law at the muzzle of a rifle, strict Muslim religion, fear of death for speaking out, poor health, corruption, standover tactics, starvation, life worth less than a bullet.
      If you knew only that..
      how quickly could you change? would you dare to openly speak out? or would you remain quiet all the while hoping for someone stronger than you to make change?
      no person wants to live in fear.

    • Michael says:

      10:24am | 30/08/10

      Adrian, the answer to that is: if the Afghans feel so oppressed by the Taliban, perhaps they should be the ones doing something about it—not a group of Western countries.  Most of the things you mentioned—education, coffee shops,iphones,the internet,  “macdonals”, your freedom of speech, music, electricity,running water and civil decency—come as a result of adopting Western economics and Western secularism, not following a medieval religion.  The “decadent West” got past that after the Crusades.

      As for Nazi Germany: stupid analogy.  Nazi Germany was out conquering other countries by direct conventional war, not training terrorists.  Completely different situation.  And I might add, for your information, that the US only declared war on Nazi Germany because Hitler declared war on the US after Pearl Harbour.

      “Terrorism is a cancer, left unchecked it will surely spread?”
      Hah!
      I don’t think the US and the West being in Iraq and Afghanistan has done anything *other* than provoke more moronic terrorist groups to spring up.  A stupid US armed response into Iraq was exactly what Osama Bin Laden and Al-Quaeda were hoping for, because it gave them an excuse to spread their religion.

    • cam says:

      06:43am | 29/08/10

      I stand corrected, thanks Adrian, I wasn’t aware the Russians had gone back, under the understanding of attempting to stop the heroin trade.

    • stephen says:

      08:16pm | 28/08/10

      Why the Americans, and us, are in Afganistan is in spite of 9/11, not because of it. (Although in defense of civilian casualties, we may resort to such simple ‘equations’.)
      It’s partly true, as someone said on this site recently, that the attraction of mineral wealth in Afganistan, in particular lithium, copper and gold would be a common motive for invasion, but I think you ignore what the US, and we, want.
      We want Globalization and a functioning Capitalism, which is non-functioning if major populations are at war and not in the market.
      It’s also true that no-one practically does something for one reason alone, ie. I assume that catching a cold is at least dual.
      Forget motive ; think of the consequences.
      A good and pure motive, in any sphere, is for the Saints.

    • hitlers student says:

      05:42pm | 28/08/10

      defense of the nation begins wherenthe attacks originate from, there has been no government in Afghanistan for a very long time preceeding our Nato arrivals, the taliban introduced sharia as means to provide some form of law over a lawless bandit and criminal controlled country, any law is better then bandit gang law, a global army using assymetrical extreme catastrophic actions of war against democratic nations used the chaos a smoke screen to set a base for further catastrophic attacks, most future wars will be of a counterinsurgwency nature if involving the US because no nation match them conventionally anymore, the CIC is of no value if they cannot deploy troops to fight where they are likely to take casulties, this is the nature of armed conflict, small minded analysis of the current global security situation only endangers lives anywhere and everywhere, like restaurants in holiday resorts,  progress is unlike anything before measured, or seen,

    • yofussn says:

      05:41pm | 28/08/10

      Surely oil had nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq, surely Australia didnt all of a sudden feel obliged to seriously meddle in East Timors affairs because of the Great Sunrise Timor Sea oil & gas feilds.  What was Americas response to deputy ozs call for help, sure we will provide some logististics support otherwise buggar off, ts not in our national interest!  What was Howards response to Americas call for help in invadeing Iraq,-  how many troops do we need to send, onya jonny, & thanks for the great big dark stain on our countries collective soul, now that you got us into it it appears there be no turning back. is it any wonder China is now takeing the initiative & setting up defence bases in East Timor. Yes, me too thinks it just too coincidental the Saudi king just happened to be flying into America the day of 9/11, who else would or could have had the mun to pulloff something of that scale, & if the Taliban require a legitamate source in which to vent their terror why not with those obscenely filthy rich Arabs building the most outrageously exuberant extravagant spare no expense building programs while virtually all of the inner countries surrounding remain in all but primitive subsistence levell living standards. We can be assured of just one thing in war, plenty of bloodshed & tears, do we seriously wish to bring on the war of all wars between the west & east fundamentalist zealots. hardly,  On the one hand we have the I a Tolya he was a Meany on the other King Pong, so war is the answer to resolve all our differences, yeah right, the gods may have been right to suggest we will create our own Armagedon. looks like humankind would take the hell bent path naturally of course. Who then may be the only country capable of stepping in & settling anything, China u betcha.

    • Andrew says:

      03:48pm | 28/08/10

      After 9/11, when America said they were going to Afghanistan, I remembered how the Russians went home with their tails between their legs after something like 12 years there, and it occurred to me that the Americans might be biting off more than they could chew. It is looking more and more like history will repeat itself and the Taliban will resume the public beheadings and savage beating of women for showing a square centimetre of bare skin. They must be the worst misogynists in the world.

    • neil says:

      11:12pm | 28/08/10

      Andrew, a point of difference. The Sovietes wanted to own Afghanistan, the west hopes to liberate it.

      But they are both wrong, just like India or Lebanon, first you must dominate them, then assimilate them. Their internal problems will go on for decades or even centuries. But they have been assimilated. They just haven’t realised it yet.

    • Richard W says:

      02:11pm | 28/08/10

      15 of the 19 hijackers from the 11th of September were Saudi, so lets ask why Iraq and Afghanistan! Oil for one and pipe line for two.

      Sure Iraq did have some left over WMD’s all purchased from the US, Saddam could have even shown Bush the receipts, some of the mustard based products came from a plant in Missouri. 

      Saddam was the favorite dictator of the US while he was fighting Iran. Look at those chummy Rumsfeld and Saddam photos.

      Because Australia spends less than nothing on our own defence we are obliged to curry favour with the US under any administration in the hope they might help us one day.

      To all those who want to shake off the ‘evil US overlords’ from Australia then we need to be able to defend ourselves.

    • Nopddy says:

      02:02pm | 28/08/10

      It will end up another shite hole just like Iraq,as for the diggers deaths its really tragic but thats what they signed up for,its no use joining the military forces if you think its going to be a holiday,there is a job to be done its that simple.

    • Chris says:

      12:46pm | 28/08/10

      The most acceptable reason to remain in Afghanistan is this: We are aware that regional terrorist groups (namely JI and Filipino ASG) pose a direct threat to Australian interests. We also know that both of these groups have trained with other Islamic terrorist groups, such as AQ. We also know that AQ used Afghanistan for training camps, supported by the Taliban. In other words there is a direct link between regional terrorist threats and terrorist groups in Afghanistan.
      One can fairly argue it is in our best interests to stage a counter insurgency operation in the Middle East for this reason.
      The means of ‘fighting’ this counter insurgency campaign are questionable.
      The Taliban is not a terrorist organisation. The Taliban do however engage in assymetric tactics in the same way we see terrorist groups. One could argue that if we engage in direct combat against the Taliban we are missing the point.
      One could fairly argue that the Taliban, though supportive of AQ and opposing most Western ‘democratic’ ideals, are not a threat to Australia’s national interests. But lets not forget that the coalition had supported the Western Alliance (which was just as bad as the Taliban in that respect). Never has an attempt been made by ‘coalition’ forces to open a serious dialogue between the Taliban and themselves.
      If one accepts we want to achieve a counter insurgency victory, in whatever form it may take, then one also must accept that we can not continue to beat our heads against the wall by engaging in direct, widespread combat against the Taliban, which is viewed by many Afghans as a legitimate governing entity.
      If the Afghans accept the Taliban as a legitimate entity and the coalition can open dialogue to encourage stability and push for a less tolerant stance on AQ and other terrorist groups we will make progress.
      If we want to continue on egotistically claiming ‘we dont negotiate with terrorists’ then we can continue banging our heads against walls. What we do know is that AQ can be defeated, the Taliban can be defeated but anti-Western insurgency can be defeated by direct combat.

    • oz ocker says:

      12:30pm | 28/08/10

      This is spot on. Bob Katter referred to the “Coles/Woolies” political duopoly the self-same which has refused to debate Australia’s involvement in the Afghan war. Other Parliaments—the Canadians and the Dutch—have and as a result both are leaving what is a lost cause.
      Independent MP Andrew Wilkie has said the reasons given for the Afghan war are totally false. Mr Wilkie blew the whistle on the hoax WMDs used to justify Iraq’s invasion and for his courageous stance was trashmouthed by Honest John and Lord Downer of Baghdad. If the two big parties didn’t need his support I suspect both would be sledging him over his Afghan comments.
      Voters are fed up with the arrogance of the two big parties and won’t tolerate their lies any more. Its time to bring our troops home before more brave young men are killed or maimed in a hopeless cause.

    • Red Baron says:

      11:14am | 28/08/10

      We are there to provide safe passage of the opium to the waiting world.

    • Brad says:

      10:48am | 28/08/10

      When your brother cuts off your 18yo daughters nose and ears for accidentally being in the presence of another (non-relative) male without a chaperon…You tell the police, courts, your relatives etc. “No thanks, I don’t need any help” because that would be interfering in your family politics. Let’s pull out our minesweepers too and let the number of amputees rise merrily. Let’s condemn more generations of Afghans to despair and ignorance. One Australian life is saving thousands of afghanis, Sorry, unlike most of you I don’t believe that we are more valuable than they are.

    • Michael says:

      01:19pm | 28/08/10

      It’s not our job to fix up Afghanistan.  It would be a different story if Afghanistan either (a) had *asked* for us to be there to help *them* bring their country out of the medieval period; or (b) if Afghanistan, like Germany or Japan, presented a real, quantifiable strategic threat to Australia or a nation to whom we are intrinsically committed to support and there was any hope of changing the country long term to an ally of the West.

      Neither is the case.  You cannot make an addict come clean, they have to do it themselves.  Let the Afghans give up their addictions to a very stupid version of a religion, criminal activity (the opium trade), and misogyny, and ask for help from the West.  Then, and only then, should we consider being in there long term.  Any other deployment to that country should be on the basis of eradicating whoever attacked us and then getting the hell out - end of story.  Don’t try to bring democracy to people who still think God wants them to murder their own daughters for “honour”.

      If you think the cause is that noble, the solution is simple: go over there and start convincing them yourself.  It’ll be the last shock of your life.

    • Gerard says:

      10:26am | 28/08/10

      Every time we descend into this kind of soul-searching about the war we play into the hands of the Taliban.  Some Australian soldiers have given their lives to fight a ruthless, inhuman, barbaric tyranny.  No one can predict the strategic outcome of this war and maybe we’ll never liberate the Afghans but don’t you have any pride for what your country’s soldiers have done?  And if you don’t, then shut the hell up, because your pathetic concern over a statistic that happens to unsettle you pales into insignificance against the loss suffered by the families of these brave soldiers.  Every time Australians indulge in this caterwauling they give the Taliban a renewed burst of confidence, renewed determination to kill Australian soldiers.  They should be ashamed of themselves.

    • nick says:

      10:05am | 28/08/10

      may the ANZAC spirit rest in peace, if we are to sit here and allow attrocities to occur in ANY part of this world, and not take action to help those who deserve it.

    • Icedvolvo says:

      07:37am | 28/08/10

      Because if we don’t. stay the Taliban will take it over, use it as a base to destabilise Pakistan, obtain nuclear weapons and then then well ....

      Or perhaps it is just because the poor bastards in Afghanistan deserve a chance at democracy and a life free from torture and death at the hands of the Taliban

    • Bob M says:

      04:53am | 28/08/10

      Every reason expounded that opposes the notion of the Australian Defence Forces being in Afghanistan, has merit and are supportable.But the comments and opnions overlook one important issue that deserve some thought. Australia devotes huge amounts of funding to its defence. Our soldiers are committed career professionals that deserve the opportunity to put what they learn, into practice. I argue that being in Afghanistan is a military training finishing school, where the skills and training are put into a real life, situational practice. It is against the successes and failures of our admirable and committed defence forces together with the worthiness of our expensive military weaponry, hardware and systems that we should measure and assess the need for Australia to committ its military forces to Afghanistan.

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      03:24am | 28/08/10

      We are wasting more money and time whining about and locking up a few thousand Afghan refugees than we are caring one bit about the Afghan people in their own country.

      After 9 years most of the world understand the reason for invasion was bogus and the US really just wanted all that oil and gas in the Caspian Sea.

    • Sean Williams says:

      12:58am | 28/08/10

      Modern-day Australians are just beginning to discover that a by-product of sending troops to a warzone is that some of them, sadly, will be hurt, or worse, killed. It is certainly a fact accepted by the soldiers themselves. When did we get into this childish mindset that no-one (well none of “us” at any rate) should ever be killed in wars? Now that the Australians have been shamed out of the safety of their bases (no reflection on the troops themselves, more the political cowards of Canberra) it is inevitable that casualties will rise. Could it be that Australia is not the tough military nation it thinks it is? British troops, disgracefully slurred by Aussies at every opportunity as inferior to their own mythical Diggers, have been fighting hard and dying in Afghanistan for years - now well over 300 killed, that in addition to the 179 lost in Iraq while the small number of Aussie troops based themselves in a province the British used for rest and recreation! Not that the British effort is ever commented on or praised by the Aussie media. An uncomfortable truth perhaps?

    • cam says:

      10:39pm | 27/08/10

      Great article Tors, like everything you write.

      When Russia pulled out of Afghanistan they declared ” we’ll never go back “.
      They reiterated their position again early this year when it was suggested by the US that they’d be welcome to join the latest mission. The Russians aren’t stupid. If they think the war is unwinnable, I’m happy to agree. But just what is the definition of winning and what is the definition of won ?

      Imagine this. ” We’d like you to fight a war where we’re not sure how many troops they have, we’re not sure where they are and we’re not really sure the length and breadth of their weaponry. ” It’s been reported there might be 36,000 troops on the Taliban side, but who really knows. The coalition apparently have about 120,000 troops. Al-Qaeda are there too, no one knows how many fighters they have there or across the world. Their tactic is terrorism and the PR that comes with it. Yet the coalition fights the war in Afghanistan and the war on terror in the traditional way, like wars have been fought throughout history. But this war and the war on terror is being fought on very different ground. How do you expect to win a war in the same ways as previous when clearly the environment of this war is very different ?

    • Big Al says:

      10:13pm | 27/08/10

      Why whine & carry on about this?  Why do these blokes join the Army in the first place? It’s not so they can march around Pukapunyal - it’s so they can kill people. This is the chance you take when the enemy shoots back - sad, but true. If he’d of shot 50 Afghanis, there wouldn’t have been a whisper, trouble is, they shoot back. Sad for the family, but that’s what he went there for.

    • James Peterrson says:

      05:27pm | 27/08/10

      We must read the US agenda before we blindly follow them and expose our soldiers. The reason behind US invasion of Iraq is no secret now and same is the case in Afghanistan.
      Before US invasion, Afghanistan was the most peaceful area under Talbans. Any differences with them could have been resolved diplomaticaly but US chose to invade Afghanistan. After all US is negotating with Iran and North Korea for years. So what was hurry to invade Afghanistan. Ironcially no action was taken against Saudi Arabia which provided majority of terrorist involved in 9/11 attack. We must not be a tool in other people politics and keep our identity and act according to our soverign policies.

    • Ian Borg says:

      06:47pm | 27/08/10

      The only reason we have troops there is because USA told us to send them. I hpe that sometime soon we get a government that will do what is right for Australia, but I can;t see it being either of the current main parties.

    • Paulpp says:

      05:19pm | 27/08/10

      The ripping sound is ANZUS being torn up. Leaving Afghanistan means that. The real, immediate, issue is the increased work load (risk of death) with no increase in support services or numbers on the ground. It seems there has been a reduction in troop numbers since the Dutch left. The military gap has been filled with less, not more.

    • Another take on it says:

      06:47pm | 27/08/10

      I will give Howard, Rudd, and Gillard one thing: they’ve managed to minimise the harm to our military by committing the smallest force possible without putting the ANZUS treaty in peril.  If our role was to actually subjugate regions, this would be a problem, but given we seem to be there basically just to fire the original “odd angry shot” I fail to see why we should commit any more than a token force.

      I also don’t see any problem with the government doing this since our biggest partner in the Afghan Experiment is doing exactly the same thing: the US refuses to commit sufficient troops to win the conflict because it’s scared of bodybags.  Canada and the Dutch can pull out all they like; it’s not like they’re going to leave NATO.  Australia does need to bear its alliances in mind.  Are 21 men and women a suitable sacrifice to keep the alliance intact? Maybe.  We spent hundreds of thousands of young men’s lives in World War One keeping our alliance with England intact.  Some of them later were called heroes.

    • Barney says:

      04:59pm | 27/08/10

      The US has never done anything for anyone,unless there is something in it for themselves,they must have an enemy,what’s left of their economy depends on it,and they don’t care what sort of a mess they leave behind,or more often than not,are defeated,Afghanistan will be next,NZ has the courage to do things their way,and we on the other hand have always gone wherever the Brit’s or US want how pathetic

    • Luke says:

      04:48pm | 27/08/10

      We may have followed the USA into yet another war based on lies but Issues have arisen like how the hardline Islamic Taliban Treat their own we are fighting to show people that there is another way a democratic way where you can have freedom of speech without fear of being shot and killed and hung or raped and tortured to death

    • neil says:

      04:37pm | 27/08/10

      Rich, I think your being a bit Sino-phobic, yes China does want to improve the standard of living of their 1.3 billion and they need our resources to do it. But China has for thousands of years been a passive trading culture, they have never show signs of outward aggression. Even in the Korean war they reacted to a perceived threat.

      Being in Afghanistan is to support the US but also to support the UN and to show the world we will do our share, and the price we pay is high 21 brave men so far. But let’s put that into perspective, over the past nine years 100 Australians have died in terrorist attacks, 34 Police officers have died in the line of duty, 13,000 have died on the roads and over 2,500 have been murdered.

    • Rich says:

      03:37pm | 27/08/10

      The reason we are there is very simple, to support the United States and maintain our alliance.

      Given China’s rapidly increasing influence in Asia and their courting of pacific nations for the purpose of naval bases (to project power into the pacific) we must maintain this alliance unlike what New Zealand has done.

      We are 12th in the world in terms of military spending and we need to because we are only 23 million people in control of a golden goose. The USA will protect us with their nuclear umbrella if we pull our weight.

      Resources are running out and 3 billion Asians want the lifestyle of the 1 billion westerners. Do you honestly think that will not be a problem in terms of resources. Do you think the average Chinese or Indian person thinks it is fair that we have all this to ourselves and have miniscule populations in comparison to them ?

      You think they aren’t still pissed about the century of humilitation ?

      Greens don’t have a clue.

    • Gregg says:

      04:37pm | 29/08/10

      neil,
      You’re being a bit naive for what China may have been thousands of years back, even a bit over a century ago or for that matter not much more than a half a century ago is totally different and irrelevant to what may happen in the next 50 years or century.

      China was a closed country without communism and presence of the US and a few European nations hence Hongkong and Macao.
      They’re building untold strength as an industrial nation and in military terms and commercially do have great demands for resources.
      And let us not forget there was once a country called Tibet.

      What could prevail in 50 or a 100 years time is anyone’s guess though I suspect our involvement in Afghanistan will have little effect on what the future may hold with Chinese activities.

    • Davido says:

      09:25pm | 27/08/10

      Wow, that is a very very perceptive take.

      People might note that two of the top three biggest military spenders on the planet are India and China. India has the largest population of poor on the planet yet they import more military hardware than ANY other country.

      Anyone else got a clue what all those poor people in India might want to do with those nuclear weapons and all that conventional weaponry one day? Give them an ideology and a grudge and they might just want (and be prepared to take by force) what you have.

    • Stevo says:

      03:30pm | 27/08/10

      Tory, Tory Tory,  please try think outside your immediate needs, cancers dont stay in one place, they spread, and terrorists are the cancers of the human race. If left unchecked, they will spread, and we will be destroyed.
      Im not in the army, however if the situation became grave enough, I would be willing to join the fight and even give my life as some of our brave soldiers have done to ensure a safe prosperous future for our children…........its that serious.

    • The Clairvoyant says:

      03:28pm | 27/08/10

      Michael, how nice of you to absolve the invader of civilian deaths - does this include people killed by cruise missiles or predator drones, or, as in Iraq by ‘shock and awe’?? 

      And the Taliban are ‘vaporised’ are they? What, the US has phasers set on ‘kill’??

    • Michael says:

      04:59pm | 27/08/10

      Once again, Clairvoyant, If the “native” peoples, as you put it, of a country want to garner legitimate (as opposed to misguided) sympathy from the outside world about “civilian” casualties they perhaps should stop hiding among the civilian populace and using said populace as shield or camouflage.

      What you seem to be missing is that the “native” peoples use this strategy specfically because, like Saddam’s old human shields trick, it is guaranteed to kick up sympathy from the Western media and people who have sent someone else or someone else’s child to fight their battles for them.  That’s not carelessness by the West.  It’s a deliberate tactic by the “natives”.

      You also misquoted me.  I said fight man-to-man, not fight fair.  And the reason the ‘natives’ don’t fight man-to-man is because they won’t or can’t, without losing.  Although why exactly the US should “fight fair”, as you put it, is beyond me.  War is not moral; it’s the Geneva Conventions which have to be complied with, and to my understanding, they are - and beyond.  It is not the US that is consciously using the civilian population as a direct weapon of war.  That tactic is wholly that of the “natives.”  In wars that do not contain this tactic, civilians get out of the way, and quickly so.

      As to the imbalance of technology—tough.  Welcome to what happens when you choose Western economics and Western secularism over Teh Prophet.  Of course, I’m sure there are alternatives.  Perhaps God/Allah/Peewee Herman can strike the infidel aircraft out of the sky with a well-placed lightning bolt? Or better yet, roll over and surrender.  That would save a lot of lives, though probably more Afghans than Americans.

      Oh, and “overwhelming superior force”? Hardly.  On a “troops per square mile” ratio there’s less Western troops in Afghanistan than there were in Vietnam.

      Incidentally, I’m not saying I want us in Afghanistan.  I don’t.  There’s no purpose to our being there.  But if we’re going to go to war, I say you do what’s necessary within the Geneva Conventions to win it, and win it quickly.  Dragging it out and pulling your punches for no better reason than a media which doesn’t have the facts and most of the time doesn’t care is only going to cost you lives and wasted money.

    • The Clairvoyant says:

      04:25pm | 27/08/10

      Ah Michael I’m not confusing anything - ‘combat effectiveness’ doesn’t go hand in hand with humanitarian concerns - and really the whole argument you’re making smacks of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Give the Palestinians Abhrams tanks anf F-16s, train them in their use and I’m sure they would ‘fight fair’.  Its simply disingenous to suggest that the ‘native’ peoples of a country (and let’s not get into the ‘taliban’ argument - its a collective noun for anyone fighting the US) when faced with an overwhelming and technologically superior force why would you insist they should fight on the invaders terms?

    • Michael says:

      03:45pm | 27/08/10

      Actually, Clairboyant, vapor is about what’s left of a person after a large-yield bomb hits them.  I didn’t use the term loosely.  Also, it’s accurate: when the Taliban emerges from the civilian population to fight the US, it loses.  Comprehensively.

      You are badly confusing combat effectiveness with humanitarian concerns.  Cruise missles and predators are excellent weapons in that they kill large numbers of people including enemy forces without any loss of life to our own troops.  I regard that as very satisfactory given I don’t want any more Australian troops dead, and given the Taliban likes to hang out among the civilian populace and play “ain’t no one here but us innocent bystanders” with US troops.

      And as I said: if the Taliban or those who suppot it want to whinge about civilian deaths, fighting fair or the Geneva Conventions, perhaps it might consider putting uniforms on and fighting man-to-man instead of paying 9 or 10 year old kids to use IEDs against troops in convoys.  I might add that suicide bombers don’t seem to mind how many civilians they end up killing, or that they like to pick on civilian targets like restaurants, hotels, embassies, etc, rather than try to minimise deaths of their own people.

    • Michael says:

      03:12pm | 27/08/10

      Australia is only in Afghanistan because America is.  And America is only there because Barry Obama doesn’t want to look soft on terror.  Just as with Vietnam, for this reason and this reason alone will we continue to see bodybags coming back on our airplanes: politics.

      Beyond that, there is no strategic imperative for a Western nation to be there at all.  Let’s be blunt: you will not change the attitudes of a people who are basically still in medieval times so far as their religion and technology is concerned, with an economy that is barely above subsistence levels.  The British came to try and impose civilisation on this backwater of a nation; they failed.  The Russians put 100,000 men in there; they failed too (mainly due to the mujahadeen, precursors of the Taliban, whom the US armed while Russia was there).  The country has no economic interests worth pursuing given the risk factor involved in getting minerals or oil out of there.

      I’m not saying to be soft on terror.  Just stop pussyfooting around trying to build nations with a culture and history so foreign to your own that you have no common frame of reference.  If Afghanistan has terror bases in it which attacked Australia (or, possibly, the US) then visit it, preferably from 40,000 feet up.  If not, then visit with the full 200,000 or more troops that are actually required to control the country and root out the terrorists.  Then: leave.  If the bases come back, visit it again - and again, until said terrorists get the message and vacate the premises.

      Oh, and on ‘civilian’ casualties? Not the responsibility of US or Australian armed forces.  The Geneva Conventions as to combatants apply to uniformed and identifiable enemy troops, of which the Taliban have none - and wisely so, since when they *do* come out into the open, US armed forces vaporise them.  As long as the Taliban chooses to hide and shoot from among the civilian population, and while that civilian population still thinks it’s a more rational decision to support and arm the Taliban rather than get the hell out of the way, “civilian” casualties are the responsibility of the Taliban, not the US.

    • Caeser says:

      03:02pm | 27/08/10

      Sometimes governments have to make tough, unpopular decisions. And sometimes these decisions are NOT based on their determination to gain or stay in power.
      The war we fight has many elements to it, one of which is removing a potential threat to our own country. Others include making a better life for the locals and helping them do what they can’t do for themselves.
      I have served in Afghanistan and I can tell you that the reason many locals won’t/haven’t taken up the fight is because it’s not THEIR life that is put in danger. It’s their family’s.
      The Taliban are everywhere. Even the locals can’t pick them out. They are so afraid that even telling their friends about how unhappy they are could get their wives or children killed.
      If someone invaded Australia, and we couldn’t eliminate the threat ourselves, we would welcome anyone who would step up and help us achieve what we can’t do ourselves. And THAT is what we’re doing over there.
      There is not one soldier, sailor or airman in the middle east who doesn’t understand the threat, not one who doesn’t want to be there, and not one who doesn’t believe - or see first hand - the difference the coalition is making.
      Do we want our mates home? Of course we do. But not until the Taliban allow the citizens to live a life they want. The Taliban banned birthdays, they banned the internet, they banned females being educated, and they banned a whole lot more stuff that you and I take for granted.
      If you don’t like the war, blame the government. Vote for the party that you believe will give you want you want. But don’t EVER blame the men and women who put their lives on the line for people who can’t defend themselves.
      Deployed troops deserve our respect, our gratitude and our support.

    • David T says:

      12:54am | 29/08/10

      ““The war we fight has many elements to it, one of which is removing a potential threat to our own country. “”

      Was there even a threat to our country to begin with? when were we ever a target before we dropped our troops in Afghanistan in 2001?

    • Gregg says:

      06:43pm | 28/08/10

      Exactly as Tory says Caeser, I’d not take it that anyone does not respect the risk to life that Australian forces deployed anywhere have and even in peaceful training and rescue activities there have been deaths.
      I’d expect that most people can acknowledge that services people would mostly accept that what they are doing is a great service to people that could otherwise be in harms way.

      There is however more to Afghanistan than where Australians are deployed and what is being discussed here is usually a bigger picture and in this case it is even bigger than Afghanistan itself.
      That being so, the last thing people who support our troops want is to have a government or governments, both Australian and otherwise pursuing something without too much of a plan as to what is the ultimate objective and the strategy to achieve it.

      Many people recognise that not every muslim is a terrorist and in fact the majority are far from it but terrorists mostly of that faith is what is being fought and when you look at how far back in history events have been occurring and the nature of them, it is that which will make a lot of people question what the right solution is.
      If we have services people in Afghanistan for another five, ten or twenty years and consider then an objective has been achieved, how rewarding will it be to in a further five or ten years time to be back at square one.

      And it is not so much the success or not but the loss and injury of people for what purpose we would ask.

    • Tory Maguire

      Tory Maguire says:

      03:09pm | 27/08/10

      Caeser, no one here is blaming the troops for anything. Tors.

    • Akaash says:

      02:50pm | 27/08/10

      Honetly speaking, Americans are playing the role of pimps in Iraq and Afghanistan. These wars have proven to be unjustified and illegal. In Iraq the reason was Sadam and the biological weapons. Not a single shit was found and the whole country is now facing US induced corruption and lawlessness. Afghanistan was attacked after 9/11 and Osama. By the way, 95% civilian were killed by US and it is still going on. US is loosing because their invasion is illegal, unmoral and illegitimate. Don’t forget same can happen to us and then we would realise that we supported a wrong cause…

    • TheRealDave says:

      03:09pm | 27/08/10

      “By the way, 95% civilian were killed by US and it is still going on”

      Stop speaking utter rubbish.

    • thomas says:

      02:49pm | 27/08/10

      nobody can win… never. it is religious ideology and zelotism versus political ideology &  it ALL comes from the mind, from egos & righteousness - from greed, hatred and delusion . You can’t fight or win a war when the human mind is to blame for all the ills that “caused” the war in the first place… it’s plain crazy. The human mind is the problem in all cases…Time for a reality check!

    • Sputnik says:

      02:42pm | 27/08/10

      From Alexander Great to the British, through the Canadians, up to the Soviets. Humans will never learn!!! History don’t lie, Afghanistan is the one and only land that has never allowed colonizers throughout History, as far as we can remember. These people were born, lived and died in wars, they breath, they eat, they smell, they live WARS!!! And you people think that a generation of video gamers, McDonalds, Hollywood and gangsters wannabe are going to be able to tame these warriors that have evolved and adapted to fighting off foreigners. You will never learn, will you ????.

    • James1 says:

      04:27pm | 27/08/10

      Its not the lack of a proper military commitment Dave, it is the objectives we set to begin with, and insist on sticking to.  If we could have been happy with a repressive Islamic regime that was not the Taliban, we might have a chance.  Given that we want a democratic, Western-oriented Afghanistan, no number of soldiers can fundamentally change the political culture, and thus victory is impossible.  The best we can hope for is the maintenance of the status quo post bellum - a situation where we can not quite lose, but where victory is equally impossible.

    • TheRealDave says:

      03:13pm | 27/08/10

      Just imagine what we could do if we actually wanted to and committed more than a token fraction of our available military might?

      its not the military letting us down/failing - its the politicians.

    • David says:

      02:21pm | 27/08/10

      Read ‘Ghost Wars’, a large, incredibly detailed, and (I think) unbiased explanation of the tangled mess of alliances in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The problem basically is that Muslims around the world now see this war in Afghanistan as a religious war against Christian invaders/crusaders. Muslims will always fund any fellow Muslims who are fighting non-Moslem invading forces. They will even fund Muslim forces who are normally their enemies. So Saudi Arabia (in particular) and Pakistan etc will continue to fund the Taliban, Al Qaeda, The Northern Alliance, or anyone else who is ‘defending’ Afghanistan against foreign forces.
      The only way to win this war is to get out. When we do that, the Muslim funds from around the world will dry up and the Muslim forces above will turn on each other. In a few years they will have returned Afghanistan to the stone age.

    • Miles says:

      02:11pm | 27/08/10

      If this were a blog in Afghanistan, at least half of you would be killed for posting your comments.  That in itself is enough to justify us being there.

      That and the fact that just because we give up the fight, it does not mean that the enemy will.  It will just allow them to gather strength and strike out and take the fight to our home soil.

    • Mick Peslo says:

      02:08pm | 27/08/10

      We havent really been fighting there for 9 years though. For quite a few years there was 1 liaison officer sitting in Kabul… Thats it. Now that we are more than a token effort and are actually trying to achieve something, actually fighting an enemy of course there are going to be more casualties.

      To be honest 21 really isnt that much. If you put it into perspective Canada is of similar size and has lost more than 150 troops. This is because their government has had the courage to do the right thing and put them into a dangerous situation. Whereas ours has been, up till recently, been minimum effort to keep our allies happy.

      What good is having an army if you aren’t going to use them? They are just an over paid number on a piece of paper if you don’t put them into harms way and let them do what they have been trained to do.

    • Michael says:

      03:38pm | 27/08/10

      Only quibble I have with this issue is that an army *should* be unused 99% of the time, and having them is an excellent deterrent.

      Going to war is, when you strip all the tradition and hoopla away from it, sending hundreds of thousands of young men and women out with the explicit intent of committing mass murder.  Doing so should be a serious decision and not to be taken lightly.  The ADF is the Australian *Defence* Force, and please God that it always is only used for that purpose.

    • hot tub poltical machine says:

      01:36pm | 27/08/10

      Personally I think we are in Afghanistan for the long term purpose of maintaining the US - Australia Alliance.

      Does that answer the question?

    • The Clairvoyant says:

      01:20pm | 27/08/10

      Basically if we are there so ‘Afghanistan never again becomes a safe haven for terrorists’ which seems to be the latest reason we will need to stay there forever. Even if we do succeed in defeating the Taliban militarily (no means certain) someone else will step up and take over the puppet Government as soon as we’re gone. This is the way they have done business for thousands of years and we (the West) are arrogant enough to think we, with our couple of hundred year old civilations can change things. We need to get out and get out now and do NOT get involved in the coming attack on Iran.

    • Ozzy Bryson says:

      01:17pm | 27/08/10

      The sad reality is, if you allow an infection to spread it can kill you. Terrorism is that infection. We must support our allies. I agree with an earlier comment, we have a wonderful way of life. Who will support us if it comes under threat?
      We have to, as hard as it may be, stand ground with our allies, so we can expect the same in return.

    • James Hunter says:

      01:17pm | 27/08/10

      If we decide the job is worth doing then we and the rest of the countries involved. should put in the troops and equipment necessary to do the job within six to maybe twelve months , If that means ten times as many ,so be it but the numbers should be on military advice not political. The political should only be about the question of should we do this. Th military should be tasked with doing the job as quickly as possible and should be given what they feel is necessary to complete the mission.
      A quick fast resolution will cost less lives from both the coalition troups and of the civilians.
      Mind you the military result must be supported with massive and immediate civilian infrastructure aid and peace keeping as a follow up.

    • Deadly Ernest says:

      01:07pm | 27/08/10

      OK, I will NOT get into an argument as to why we got involved in the first place. However, for the last several years the bulk of the fighting has NOT been against Afghanistan fighters, but against non Afghanistan people who support the Taliban and use terrorist activities to do so. So some years back it became a fight against the terrorist and is taking place in Afghanistan, and the same is now true for Iraq.

      Should we now decide it isn’t worth the trouble and pull out, we are sending the terrorists the message that they can take over any country they wish just by continuing to conduct terrorist activities within the country until the governments that don’t support their point of view give up and go home. Pulling out with the job unfinished also tells the troops that the political leaders never valued them or their contributions to make things better over there. It means the lives lost so far are all wasted.

      Another point is if the same approach as to why we should pull out were applied during the First World war or the Second World War at any point prior to the last eighteen months of the war, we would never have won.

      War’s should never be fought on a shoe string, they should never be fought with political shackles controlled from well behind the lines (as is happening in Afghanistan and Iraq, and happened in Korea and Vietnam), and they should be fought to a military conclusion, not a political ‘near enough’ conclusion. If the politicians are NOT prepared to stay the course of the conflict, then they should have resigned from parliament before the decision to go was given, and should never have stood since. If they aren’t prepared to stay the course, they have no concern for our troops, the country involved or our country, or the people in either country.

    • Deadly Ernest says:

      05:21pm | 28/08/10

      Gregg,

      I suspect we may have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of this issue. Also, I’ve already said most of what I wish to say on this, as it relates to the content of the blog without going into a major thesis and side issues. But I do wish to respond to you closing comment in your last response.

      One things that the last fifty or so years have proven, it is IMPOSSIBLE to contain terrorists from afar. The best we could do is to totally close the borders and not allow any visitors or migrants and to cease all refugee migration. None of these are actions I support.

      Admittedly, Australia is in a better position than most to take action to shut itself off from the rest of the world, but I do not suggest we should and I doubt it would work in the long term. To deal with terrorists, we need to deal with the cause and not just some of the symptoms. In that regard, we should do what we can to totally destroy the petro economy and become energy self sufficient by the use of what is now called bio-diesel. Once the middle-east oil is of no significant value, you will see the powers behind most of the terrorists in the region stop funding it as they’ll see no profits from taking over the countries. Anyway, that’s another issue for another blog.

    • Gregg says:

      03:18am | 28/08/10

      First of all DE, I dud say Korea and Vietnam were quite different and Korea was not about throwing off colonial shackles.
      Regardless of the support the Vietnamese had there were still 500,000 US troops there with unquestionable superior firepower and it was the Vietnamese will and lack of US commitment that saw the US eventually pull out.
      The US public were already getting restless on Iraq and there is already much questioning over whether Osama is still alive and is it in fact worth continuing there.
      Re;
      ” But the situation today is NOT what the situation was at the start, “
      I would say not greatly so for you had Al Quaeda there as the reason for going there and they have always recruited from various countries.

      ”  and what is at risk is much more than what was at risk at the start. “
      and that is partly due to foreign troops remaining in the country and that also a lot to do with the Taliban push into Pakistan.
      ” My biggest concern at the moment is the gutless politicians who think nothing of sending troops out to die, will have the troops lives wasted if they think they can win a vote or two by pulling out with the job unfinished, and end up leaving the country in the hands of terrorists who can then use it as a base to attack other countries. “
      If you have a think about it, the 911 terrorists were not from Afghanistan and in fact most were Saudis and they had connections with cells in Germany.
      Other terrorist attacks have been initiated from various countries and with no definite ties to Al Q in Afghanistan but being there will continue the call to arms and maintain pressure on Pakistan.
      Leaders of both major parties have indicated their support to maintaining Australian forces in Afghanistan regardless of whether it is a good decision or not and they’ll likely only direct a pull out if that is what the US decide and it would be ridiculous to have them remain as they’ll have little chance of doing anything other than dying if facing far greater numbers with limited air cover.

      ” Sometimes a fight is worth fighting because you should fight it, not because you think you can win it. You fight because you know if you don’t fight, you just lost it all. “
      Really!, and even when containment from afar may be a better approach.

    • Deadly Ernest says:

      03:00pm | 27/08/10

      Gregg,

      I’m aware that some of the root causes are different between the various conflicts, and before you go on at length about the Vietnam and Korean ones being a throw off of colonial rule, they both had huge funding and support from other countries before they started anything, and all through the conflicts there. So they were not your standard civil wars either, and in a way the Afghan situation is similar but from the other side. This is one of the reasons why I said I didn’t want to get into a discussion about the why of it at the start.

      But the situation today is NOT what the situation was at the start, and what is at risk is much more than what was at risk at the start. My biggest concern at the moment is the gutless politicians who think nothing of sending troops out to die, will have the troops lives wasted if they think they can win a vote or two by pulling out with the job unfinished, and end up leaving the country in the hands of terrorists who can then use it as a base to attack other countries.

      Sometimes a fight is worth fighting because you should fight it, not because you think you can win it. You fight because you know if you don’t fight, you just lost it all.

      The situation in Afghanistan and Iraq is more a case of a shoestring response costing lives as those there get on with doing the job without the real support needed, than anything else. Also, with talks of the government possibly pulling it, it encourages the other side to cause more trouble in the hopes it will lead to a pull out and a victory for them.

    • Gregg says:

      02:35pm | 27/08/10

      Deadly Ernest,
      There may wll be insurgents, terrorists, perhaps even freedom fighters if you wish that have flocked to Afghanistan to fight alongside the Taliban against the infidels who invaded for a specific cause and have well and truly forgotten about what they originally went there for.

      The invasion/fighting is more than a tad different to WW1 and WW2 btw if you hadn’t noticed just as Vietnam was different to Korea with Korea more along the lines of WW2.
      Vietnam came along as an invasion into a country attempting to throw off colonial shackles and there being a civil war that had developed.
      We know of the result.
      Afghanistan was invaded for a very different reason, though still something of a civil war and so perhaps a similar result to Vietnam is in the making if Iraq and Presidential thinking are good indicators.
      But then Quantamano was supposed to be closed long ago!

      You need to consider just how long and how strong a chain you wish to support there before you are convinced we stay an impossible course.

    • Youhan says:

      01:02pm | 27/08/10

      Hmm Lets See What We Can Find!!!
      WASHINGTON - The United States has discovered nearly $1 trillion in untapped mineral deposits in Afghanistan, far beyond any previously known reserves and enough to fundamentally alter the Afghan economy and perhaps the Afghan war itself, according to senior American government officials.

      The previously unknown deposits — including huge veins of iron, copper, cobalt, gold and critical industrial metals like lithium — are so big and include so many minerals that are essential to modern industry that Afghanistan could eventually be transformed into one of the most important mining centers in the world, the United States officials believe.

      An internal Pentagon memo, for example, states that Afghanistan could become the “Saudi Arabia of lithium,” a key raw material in the manufacture of batteries for laptops and Blackberries.

      The vast scale of Afghanistan’s mineral wealth was discovered by a small team of Pentagon officials and American geologists. The Afghan government and President Hamid Karzai were recently briefed, American officials said.

      as if the did not know it was there just like the Oil in IRAQ

    • Davido says:

      12:21pm | 27/08/10

      The Taliban are truly evil and we do need to stop them. Can you think of what would happen if they took over Pakistan - a nuclear country?

      Is a military solution necessary? Only in part. The way to kill off the Taliban is to stop their supply of money.

      First - stop the drug money. Destroy drug crops and put in place a scheme to buy alternative crops at a rate equal to or greater than that received by the drug growers. If drug growers still don’t comply then shoot them.

      Second - stop charitable and religious donations. Bring these terrorism money men into the tax system where we can keep an eye on them and stop the flow of money to the mad men.

      Third - encourage the moderate Muslims. Do not ostracize the religion but rather bring it into the mainstream.

      Fourth - ban religious schooling. This is where the evil tendrils first take hold.

      Easy is it not?

    • TheRealDave says:

      01:47pm | 27/08/10

      @Clairvoyant - your crystal all must be broken

      1. The Taliban turned back to the easy money of the Opium trade once their flow of cash was curtailed and they needed more arms, ammunition, equipment and recruits. They are making huge money off Opium now. Whatever they claimed they did about the Opium Trade in the past is long ago null and void. And its been common knowledge for years now….don’t know where you’ve been….

      2. As opposed to ‘blowing up everything in sight’ the coalition is far from doing that. Less than 20% of all civilians casualties have been caused by the coalition. Thats from a UN report mind you - not a US report. Every single civilian death is abhorrent. Every one. But at least through the dedication and professionalism of western troops they do their utmost to protect and defend civilians. More airstrikes are called off due to risk of civilian casualties than actually go ahead in support of TiC (troops in contact). I suggest you read Apache by Ed Massey and Joint Force Harrier by Adrian Orchard for starters. They go into great detail into what happens every single time they get a call for help. The rules and procedures they go through every single time. It is fascinating stuff.

    • The Clairvoyant says:

      01:33pm | 27/08/10

      Davido the Taliban were the ones who essentially stopped the drug trade…which was another reason the invasion took place.  And I also love ‘Encourage the moderate Muslims’ how - by invading their country and killing and blowing up everything in sight?

    • stephen says:

      12:17pm | 27/08/10

      Stu is pretty close.
      We’re doing what Barak Obama is doing : doing the right thing.
      We did it in East Timor, the Balkans, two world wars, and Vietnam.
      (I hear a cringe over the lattest, which is unneccesary.)
      If we don’t who will ? Europe, or Asia ? Ha !
      And the idea that if no-one will - or should - do it, the problem will go away is not our psychology. (It should be no-one’s.)
      If you see a bad thing, you should do something about it.
      Is that not what you were taught at school ?
      (And to harp on, it is certainly the Australian way.)

    • Gregg says:

      12:16pm | 27/08/10

      You really have to wonder what good a parliamentary debate will do if both major parties are committed to being there, be it for training the Afghanistan or just to keep our alliance and for this case in the fight against terrorism.
      I have often drawn the parallel with Vietnam and the only true parallel is an ism, communism and terrorism.

      Perhaps there is something to be learnt from the failures and victories with the former for whilst horrific violence with the former did not succeed, time and a form of acceptance with the latter has seen partial success and that to be rated as you may rate one religion against another.

      It is said that terrorism is founded in poverty and there is plenty of that in the middle east and it could be asked is where does the poverty come from for is it the culture of a thousand years or more fostered somewhat by religion, or exploitation of the region for oil over a hundred years or people being subjected to domination by their own leaders acting either alone or as puppets.

      We often enough see the scenes of the conditions many people but not all live in from south Asia right through to the Mediterranean, there possibly being a far greater extreme of wealth in most countries than there is in western countries and yet two of the more successful are the ones that have either been attacked or it is being thought of, Iraq and Iran and both reasonably prosperous and they themselves having parallels but also being quite different and at war with one another and interestingly enough, Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia, the three richest oil states up until Iraq was invaded had little if any terrorist activities!
      Why?
      Was it because in their own ways they had stability, even if it was enforced?

      Afghanistan with its invasion by the Soviets, their Vietnam as it has been called and subsequent greater instability than previously has been an environment where terrorism has found a fine home and in Iraq we may have created another whilst they could also be boarders without borders in Pakistan too.
      It is not a nice thought but western lifestyle and the demand that creates for oil is probably like a red rag to a bull for the terrorists with a virtual limitless pool of recruits from the millions that do not get to share the wealth from oil and in poverty feel exploited.

      So in effect, George and his cronies helped develop and now new kids on the block have a multi headed tentacle multiplying multiopus that what little or maximum input we have into Afghanistan will be pointless in attempting to control or eradicate.
      It is obvious that a bloodbath is imminent for Iraq on the US pull out and in the same having been announced for Afghanistan be it in rubbery terms, there is no doubt a similar final scenario will develop and I doubt the US will have the stomach to ramp up involvement again.

      Iraq will possibly eventually resolve its problems over the next few decades much as it developed in decades of brutality leading up to and including Saddam’s reign with or without input from Syria, Turkey or Iran.
      A solution for Afghanistan will likely be quite different and in learning from that other ism experiences, though the Russkies may have failed there could yet be a role for our own Kevolemon to lead the Chinese in a takeover!

      Yes, one monster needs to be devoured by another and don’t those Chinese just love their opium dens.
      Maybe Kevin and Bob could be the ultimate diplomatic sellers.
      Afghanistan and no media surveillance in return for quelling Maoist rebels in India and its neighbours and curtailing Al Queda activity in Afghanistan and the Pakistan NW frontier.
      Pakistan could be told, lads, learn to love those guys and if they need to police the Swat Valley for you as well they’re invited to do so.
      What you can do in return is dismantle your nuclear capacity and put all your military resources into altering your landscape to have flooding able to be controlled better, the Chinese having some experience in both areas and masses of young single blokes for both the military and civil work.
      We could also have them set up work brigades to take a lot of single Afghanistan men who have previously left.

      It’s outside the box but sometimes you do need to think outside too.

      It may happen in any event, more on China’s terms if you consider what happened with Tibet and as with there, do you think the Russkies or the Yanks would have the stomach to resist intrusion to where they failed.
      It’ll certainly give Mister Dinnerjacket and his Islam dining guests something to think about.

    • Russell Stewart says:

      12:01pm | 27/08/10

      Hot on the heels of Bin Laden, the USA invaded Afghanistan hell bent on revenge for 9/11 and the majority of Allied Nations followed. When they could not find him they turned to Sadaam Hussein. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. It’s time to let the Afghans sort it out for themselves.

    • TheRealDave says:

      12:44pm | 27/08/10

      Actually Russell, the UN sanctioned action in Afghanistan and NATO has been given operational control of which ISAF is the cobbled together coalition doing the work.

      Not ‘Majority of allied nations’.

      We are tag-alongs, doing the absolute minimum we can get away with politically

    • PJ says:

      11:49am | 27/08/10

      Hi Tori. If our aim is to destroy the influence the Taliban over Afganistan—-, well,  we will fail. Hamid Karzai is not to be trusted and his brother is the Govenor of the biggest drug exporting state. A solution may come from leaving Karzai out to dry, then destroy the crops with subsidies paid and as Pakistan being perceived the threat—-suggest a drone controlled no go zone at the border. The US can no longer afford their WAR economy under the Obama regime, so their is no other option. Let us discuss it here and if there is no consensus——bring our men and women home. Regards.

    • Randal says:

      11:07am | 27/08/10

      There should be debate on all of Australia’s military involvement’s and I for one find myself in the unusual position of supporting Bob Brown in this regard, as sending young men into a war zone is as serious a decision a government can make and this should always be done transparently.

      This of course does not mean that I nor the community as a whole do not support the action in Afghanistan, I for one do believe that it is important that we removed this strong hold of Al-Qaeda and replaced an oppressive government with a democratically elected one that offers freedom and hope for the Afghani people.

      To me it also imperative that having started the operation that we finish it, and we cannot now leave until a stable government is in place with the capacity to adequately protect its people from those who would seek to force minority control through force.

      This though is only one opinion and no doubt many on this site many would vehemently disagree with me, and that is essentially my point that the community and then the Parliament should debate this issue and ultimately the will of the people determine the future of our campaign.

      That to me is how it should be and hopefully the recent change in the dynamics of the parliament will now allow this most important debate to occur.

    • fairsfair says:

      04:36pm | 27/08/10

      Randal, don’t fret mate - women acknowledge that the term “man” (and therefore in every day discussion man’s pluram “men”)also indicates a generic descriptor for a group of humans. It appears to me that a couple of blokes (assuming you are one Ray) are making a bit of a mountain where there is only a molehill. How gender is even being discussed following this story is rediculous.

      I have certainly put my lighter down, and I will go out on a lim and state that no other lady will be sparking up their bra over your comment either.

      Stick to the topic people.

    • Randal says:

      11:34am | 27/08/10

      @The Real Ray Graham
      I apologise for the poorly constructed sentence and meant no offence to the many fine women who are an integral part of our armed forces and should have used the term Australian’s and not men.

    • JAX says:

      11:25am | 27/08/10

      don’t forget the women Randal - Ray will chew your ass off for daring to suggest that MEN are the only ones who get sent to dangerous places to risk their lives, that we don’t care etc etc—fill in rant here—

    • The Real Ray Graham says:

      11:24am | 27/08/10

      “as sending young men into a war zone is as serious a decision a government can make “

      How about all the women they are sending. do they not matter? yeah, thats right. women are expendable.

    • JAX says:

      11:06am | 27/08/10

      I would say leave and let them kill themselves and each other, who cares! But my partner is over there on the front line, guy keeps volunteering to go, better pay, he can blow shit up and he gets to kill people, it’s a dream job for him, he doesn’t really care why he is there, he has orders and you obey orders or else (except mine apparently when he’s home, he keeps telling me I am not his superior and I just say back to him oh honey how little you know lol) he is there to do a job, some of his friends over there DO believe in the mission and want what we are working towards and can’t understand what all the fuss is about at home, we say bring them home and they say hell no we have a job to do.

    • ted says:

      11:02am | 27/08/10

      T.Chong…...failed with Kevin07, Dillard and now drawing on his extensive knowledge of the Islamothreat from the comfort of some inner city coffee house in Sydney or Melb (somewhere with a massive green vote).

      The world is not the kum-by-ya utopia you want it to be. Afghanisatan began for the US as a clear out of Al-Queda….Taliban refused so they were mown down….pretty simple. Then a compassionate country (US) finds the utter depravation and immorality of the Taliban strict sharia life imposed on the people, particulary women and decides it wants to change that.

      Now I remember when GetUp were going crazy about David Hicks…..the same person that wanted all gays, jews et exterminated. So T.Chong, leave the bidding of geo-politics to the big boys and instead go back to debating your little friends on campus about how evil Howard and Abbott are and how good for Australia more Greens would be.

      Battler.

    • dancan says:

      10:52am | 27/08/10

      I think we need a debate, supporting Australian troops doesn’ t mean blindly sending them off to another country without properly questioning if we should be there or not.  If these troops are willing to travel to these other countries, and take the ultimate risk with their lives and livelihood’s for our sake. Then it’s our duty to ensure they aren’t doing it for unnecessary or invalid reasons.

    • Anjuli says:

      10:07am | 27/08/10

      Now that there are floods in Pakistan the Taliban will be working harder to get recruits from there and then what ! India would be in strife also. If the troops come home we will only have to go in again, the next time it would be harder and much more deadly.
      I am always sad to see such lovely young people being killed but we need to support our troops fully ,I am sure they all think they are doing the right thing.

    • Samuel says:

      09:57am | 27/08/10

      Here’s some food for thought: what if these soldiers believe in the cause? What if they’re happy to risk their lives to liberate Afghani citizens from Taliban oppression and try and bring stability to the region? Maybe, due to the higher-ups, it’s not being done in the best possible way, but nonetheless they feel it’s a righteous cause.

      What greater disrespect, then, to wait until a certain number of them die and then decide we ought to leave? What better way to make their sacrifices count for absolutely nothing than to quit before the mission is accomplished because twenty, thirty, or however many of them lost their lives? Yes, call for a debate on our reason for being there, and how we can improve our chances for success, etc etc. But let that debate include the soldiers themselves who are risking their lives, and don’t just assume before the fact that the resolution to the debate ought to be “Get out”.

      All I know is that if I were a soldier who died, the last thing I would want to see from heaven (hypothetically) is people saying “Oh, he died. Let us quit now.” That makes my death worth absolutely nothing.

    • Realpolitik says:

      01:49pm | 27/08/10

      Perhaps it’s about time the media stops promoting the ADF (and it’s operations) as a matter of public debate.  Or at least try to promote some understanding of what it feels like to walk in those boots.  People tend to forget that serving in the ADF is voluntary.  Conscription ended with Vietnam.  So public discussion on where they should and should not go (or whether their work is meaningful)  is no different to Joe Blow thinking that his 2 cents is worth a bob when it comes to his opinions on anybody elses job.
      As a few people have hinted, the commitment is token and driven by political sensitivities.  Dead and wounded soldiers are bad PR for politicians - hence they’d rather have our troops wrapped in cotton wool and limited in what they can do overseas.  Which only serves to frustrate those men and women trying to get the job done…

    • Kevin says:

      12:19pm | 27/08/10

      The army is not a democracy.  These are professional soldiers.  They go where they’re ordered to go and fight whoever they are ordered to fight.  If they don’t like fighting in a particular place, too bad.  Equally, we don’t sustain a conflict merely because the soldiers are “happy” to be there.  I would expect professional soldiers to do their job (and I am sure the Australian troops are doing a first class job) regardless of whether they “believe in the cause” or otherwise. 
      That is not to say that the views of the troops should be ignored in assessing what is happening on the ground in Afghanistan.

    • TheRealDave says:

      10:47am | 27/08/10

      It is heartwarming to see that those with nothing to lose are the first to scream ‘bring our troops home now!!’ whilst those with everything to lose and who have been there or are still there are the first to say ‘we need to stay and help these people’.

    • TheRealDave says:

      09:36am | 27/08/10

      If I may, I think most regular punchers know my thoughts on the current situation but I’ll jot down the bones of it anyway wink

      Our ‘token’ commitment, the bare minimum we could get away with politically to keep brown-nosing the US is what is and will be getting our Diggers killed. The “Mentoring and Liaison’ teams come from the Company minus of Infantry we have over there. We have our SF Task Force all over the place doing recce and assaults on strongpoints all over Afghanistan and doesn’t have an awful lot to do with the Mentoring Teams or the Tradies building schools, hospitals, water purification plants etc It seems, from news reports the SF teams have been working around Kandahar, well away from TK.

      I think a lot more action is heading our way in Oruzgan mainly because a) we are spreading further out into areas the Dutch never went anywhere near and b) the US ‘surge’ into Helmand to help out the Brits is forcing some of the ‘Taliban’ north into Oruzgan.

      Not a lot we can do about it with a paltry company minus.

      Its come to the stage where we either make a proper military commitment of at the very least a battalion or two, which we more than have the manpower to rotate as needed and give troops extended breaks afterwards (the RAR has never been as highly manned since Vietnam, we have 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 and now 8/9RAR all fully manned and ready to go, the Army reserve units are already doing the Solomons and East Timor) so its not a manning issue, or we pull up stumps and come home. Continuing on with no where near enough troops is just going to get more Diggers killed.

      With more ‘boots on the ground’ we can aggressively patrol and stop the IED teams encroaching at night to put the bloody things down. We can dominate the area and not let them get away to rest and recuperate after actions. As it is now we are needing to pull out once the shooting stops because there simply aren’t enough of us out there.

      The other thing to realise is, that most of those we label ‘Taliban’ actually aren’t. The fractured nature of the tribal system means that usually we go in and pal up with the largest tribe in the area, basically bribe them over to the government side…and what we get is all those other smaller tribes who hate the larger tribe then identifying us with their enemy because they see the larger tribes getting infrastructure built and favours from the west so they take cracks at us. We call them ‘Taliban’ because they are fighting us. There is no doubt a much larger ongoing battle with organised Taliban, but a lot of the local level stuff is purely an extension of the usual Afghani tribal crap thats been going on for generations.

      Providing security and infrastructure will go a long way to settling these local issues - but we can’t do it without security which needs ‘boots on the ground’. We aren’t the only ones doing it mind you. Every single country with troops committed to ISAF have been doing the same thing. The US, the UK, Canada etc all trying to do it ‘on the cheap’.

      We will have little progress on the ground in Afghanistan until we decide whether or not we are going to actually ‘have a go’ and do the job properly or we pack up and come home now.

      And that’s aside from whether or not we backed the wrong horse in Afghanistan.

    • Sarah Allen says:

      09:31am | 27/08/10

      Thank you Tory - I can’t understand why this hasn’t been an election issue.

      So many of my friends and family see that the Australian involvement in Afghanistan is pointless. The wars in that area have gone on for many eons before us, and after we have withdrawn they will continue to fight.

      I acknowledge however that our army is doing a great job and the men and ladies over there show more bravery every day on their patrols than I can comprehend.

      I want to commend the army for their endeavors and I want our government to bring them home. We have done enough, waged enough, lost enough - for no gain, none at all. It’s time to bring our boys home.

    • Stu says:

      10:05am | 27/08/10

      It hasn’t been an election issue because both major parties support our involvement.  Our gains are to free a country from oppression and to protect out national interests on the world stage (if you come at us, we have allies).

    • Fred says:

      09:31am | 27/08/10

      Ah, so many armchair experts, writing from comfort and safety at home!

      Bring on the debate and let us hear also from the Afghan refugees who fled the “troubles” and whose claims of life threatening persecution our government upheld. The link between ethnic/religious/political persecution by the Taliban and   the refugee outflows which mildly impact on our borders, needs to be better understood. The Hazara victims who dominate the 6000 plus people in Australian detention today should be enabled and encouraged to tell their stories.They certainly value the freedom we claim to fight for.  Most would prefer a solution at home if only it were safe, but it is demonstrably not safe yet.
      In the limited media coverage allowed from a war zone , I have been impressed by the solid commitment and zeal for the task of securing peace and democracy for the people of Afghanistan from our professional Defence force people in the field, and their concern to improve the lot of women and children in particular. All power and thanks be to them.

    • jb says:

      09:12am | 27/08/10

      To all our Military and their families my heart goes out to you all, you must live life very close to the chest everyday and I can only imagine the constant stress and worry.
      I only know a few that serve in our worlds troubled spots and it is all of you that are truly Australian and I for one am proud to call this country home and for that I thank you all.

    • Z3 says:

      07:29pm | 27/08/10

      Thank you. I am the wife of a dedicated, proud, patriotic soldier currently serving there. Come what may, I am proud of my husband and his courageous sacrifice to defend those unable to fight their oppressors. I am proud of all of those courageous members of our Australian Defence Force , men and women, who are defending those who are unable to defend themselves. Say a prayer for them.

    • James Darby says:

      09:11am | 27/08/10

      From the very begining Bush and Howard should have introduced a land title system for the Afgans. Then repatriated Afgans who got out of Afganistan. The ones who have already become citizens could have been paid to go back. If an Afgan was smart enough to get here we should send them back to defend their own country. I don’t want to call them taliban. Their real name is Islamists. Coming here when our troops are fighting for their country. To pay for Afgans to go back to build and protect Afganistan;  the Euro-Africans can be let free to pay to come here. All the boat people should be sent to Afganistan where home ownership will provide the capital and motivation to protect their new hime against sharia. They can fight the Islamists there and our troops can come home. In Iraq the as USA is pulling out with days to go the Islamists bombed their own people maiming 100’s and murdering 45. They do this to keep USA tearing its own heart out.

    • Matt says:

      09:03am | 27/08/10

      Good article and I for one would welcome a debate. Add to this the veiled secrecy of the ADF which is often a closed book for Australian journalists covering the war (compared to, say, the US and British forces and their openness to embedded media) and it does not help the situation. Commercial TV networks have also scaled back their coverage of the war for more backyard stories that affect ‘everyday’ people. The debate amongst average Australians has now been restricted ‘stay’ or ‘go’ with no reflection on our mission, aims, etc. Both sides of parliament should welcome a debate if it results in enlightening a fairly complex issue that could well become a political hot-button if the casualties keep coming.

    • TheRealDave says:

      01:30pm | 27/08/10

      hang on…thats a trick question isn’t it?

    • Tory Maguire

      Tory Maguire says:

      01:04pm | 27/08/10

      @TheRealDave - are you asking me to sign up to the military or to the Greens? smile

    • TheRealDave says:

      10:45am | 27/08/10

      @Matt - you may want to take a look at Chris Master recent brilliant report on 4 Corners. It may still be available online over at iView. One of the best pieces of investigative journalism on our Digs in any recent deployment….actually, its also probably one of the only in depth pieces done.

      Whether its a ‘Closed ADF shop’ or just lazy journo’ s cutting and pasting wireservice pieces I don’ t know. There seems to be a never ending stream of brilliant BBC and US articles and doco’s with reporters embedded with troops but apparent from Chris Masters not a single bit from Aussie journo’s.

      How do you look in green Tory??

      wink

    • Richard the Lionheart says:

      08:52am | 27/08/10

      The military option does not seem to be working. The brass is looking at the enemy (Taliban) in the usual shoot them, cower them, contain them, way. And who are they? What do they look like? Where are they? I believe this war must be won. Terrorists will use suitcase nuclear devices to blow up whole suburbs when the technology comes available sooner than we think for the present teenagers. Terroristshave already been checking out water supplies and other major utility targets in the west. They just don’t care about anyone or anything, we must all be cowered so their vision of the one and only Prophet and God can start again. Heaven does not exist on Earth.
      Let us look outside the box and aim at the enemy supply line. We know their munitions are not dropped by air, nor the Kyber Pass, Chaman Pass by road, nor the Iranian boarder which is flat and well patrolled. This leaves the trails in the Toba mountains to the west and boarder with Pakistan. How are these supplies carried? Not by human chains… no donkeys!
      Solution? A 100 km no go area along the Afgan side of the boarder and 50 km no go area on the Pakistan side of the boarder for donkey’s. Villagers must move them, sell them, and move them away otherwise all Donkey’s must be killed on sight. Kill them all.
      Stop our boys being killed by roadside bombs and hit/run skirmishes.
      Try it. The brass will be surprised with the results.

    • Dave says:

      08:52am | 27/08/10

      Has anyone considered or mentioned that the Taliban are getting more aggressive as their source of funds dries up i.e opium trade. This is where the coalition forces needs to really work harder as you cannot buy arms if the opium trade is curtailled. By teaching the farmers to grow alternate crops it will have a double edged effect - 1 more food for the region 2. less drugs hitting the streets of the western world. The Coalition forces needs to hit the Taliban harder and deeper into their own territory so that the local Afghans gain more confidence and trust in the forces who are their to help. More shock and awe attacks need to be carried out to really send the message home.

    • Sonny says:

      05:35am | 29/08/10

      A fact is that before the occupation, Opium exports were far less.
      Big exports of heroin was removed by troops in Vietnam on military transports which are unchecked. Are we so nieve to think this is not happening now?
      Opium is one of many sources. The other is direct cash injection from Pakistan which US pays it since the Soviet-Afghan war in the 70’s 80’s.
      US has been pumping in cash and weapons for many years.
      Where do you think they got those US rocket launchers and mortars from? Small arms will always be AK47 because of reliability.
      It goes way way deeper than helping the Afghan ppl, at the end of the day its about cash and profit like all wars have been.
      US over threw the British with guerilla tactics, and i would be doing the same to anyone invading my country. I would do anything i can to defend my country.
      We get out and let them ask for help before it is offered.

    • Les says:

      11:01am | 27/08/10

      Here here.

    • Biteme says:

      08:49am | 27/08/10

      The USA is running at around 98% Public Debt. Go and research who they owe that money to and you may find some answers why we pander to Muslims so much and we are there.

    • PaulB says:

      01:45pm | 27/08/10

      Who are the bankers and political back room advisors and such who have led the US into this disaster of national banruptcy?  The same people who wanted Iraq invaded.  Hint:  They aren’t Moslems.

    • Frank K says:

      01:00pm | 27/08/10

      The US has actually been declared bankrupt by the IMF

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      08:48am | 27/08/10

      I think the politicians have, as with Vietnam, exceeded their remit. Their job is to avoid conflict via diplomatic means and if they fail to declare war and get the hell out of the way while the military get the job done.

      What we have now is yet another ‘‘police action’‘, where we wander in and try to control insurgency whilst making friends with the population and train them to look after the place themselves. This approach has never worked that I am aware of. The conflicts are never resolved and they just keep picking us off. Compare this to the total and unconditional surrender of Germany and Japan, which led to lasting peace.

      Bottom line, the Yanks made a mistake. They had a situation where the de facto government of a foreign nation was providing hospitality to a man who had admitted killing 3,000 civilians. The US should have recognised that government officially, declared war on it and issued an ultimatum - hand over Bin Laden or there won’t be a single structure over a metre in height left standing. And none of this crap about respecting their religion and their religious structures, either. As we have seen, they have no compunction about storing weapons in and launching attacks from mosques themselves.

      You don’t go to war to make friends; you go to war to kill and subdue your enemy.

    • RJP says:

      08:57pm | 29/08/10

      And what do you think would have happened, Tony…?  I’m with you, but the dooo-gooder brigade would have screamed blue murder and we can’t upset them, now can we?

    • Michael says:

      03:21pm | 27/08/10

      On the recruiting issue, I actually think there’s an argument for compulsory military service—or at least a full, fair lottery for that, combined with an imperative that Parliament has to decide whether or not to go to war, not the Cabinet of the day.  Reason being that you would have Australia committing to a lot fewer wars.  At the moment the all-volunteer army really is the SEOSEC army—Someone Else Or Someone Else’s Child.  That attitude also guarantees a lack of any meaningful criticism of the armed services because of “rear area guilt”—a sense that somebody is doing the job you won’t, or won’t commit your kids to do.

      A full, fair lottery that you couldn’t get out of via enlisting to reserve units would remove stupid warmongers from the picture right away since there would always then be the chance *their* child, husband, or brother (or sister, or daughter) would be the one to go to war.

      Bob Brown’s idea that Parliament should decide whether to go to war is only going halfway.  It merely changes the deciding parties from an out-of-touch PM whose son or daughter probably won’t wind up with a rifle in hand to 150 out-of-touch politicians whose sons or daughters probably won’t wind up with a rifle in hand.  In other words: introduce conscription via full and fair lottery, resulting in a full draftee army, in combination with a requirement that Parliament declares war, and you’ll see less casualties and less stupid wars across the board.

    • Dilbert says:

      01:31pm | 27/08/10

      I wish this was on facebook so I could like it…

      All so very true!

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      01:04pm | 27/08/10

      Thanks Chad, but I’ve done my bit in uniform. Bit old for it now, I feel.

    • Chad C Mulligan says:

      11:57am | 27/08/10

      Righto Tony,

      Publish your address and we’ll be round to give you lift to the recruiting office.

      Pack a toothbrush.

    • Leigh says:

      10:11am | 27/08/10

      agree 100% Tony.  You cannot turn around this 14th century culture.  Unless you are prepared to go in and level the country, you will not resolve this war.
      The governement is corrupt and the bulk of the people are not prepared to fight for their own country, so what hope do we have other than to throw away Australian lives.

    • Peter says:

      08:48am | 27/08/10

      If we really wanted to “win the war”, we’d invade Saudi Arabia, liquidate the House of Saud and the House of Wahab and give control of the Holy Cities to either Egypt or Turkey.  Or, better still, give ‘em one each.

    • Daniel says:

      08:36am | 27/08/10

      I thought News Ltd supported the war and whatever loss of Australian lives came with that Howard decision?

    • Wombat says:

      08:33am | 27/08/10

      Guns and bombs will never defeat fundamental idealism.  And stop accepting male asylum seekers from Afghanastan - they should be home fighting for their country.

    • RJP says:

      08:49pm | 29/08/10

      Well said, Wombat…instead we are giving them handouts and Centrelink, which they send back to fund their cause, which is also being funded, indirectly, by charities while our own are living on the streets….thanks to the doooo-gooder brigade who still think America is after the oil…(if you knew how much oil is in America, you would know how stupid this comment is) and those who still go on about the WMD….those who forget that it took the UN 18 MONTHS to allow America in to search for them…giving the Terrorists PLENTY of time to move them and make America look stupid….

    • Markus says:

      11:51am | 27/08/10

      Bombs can definitely defeat fundamentalists. It’s hard to be fundamental when your entire nation is wiped out.
      We just morally choose not to use the option we have that the fundamentalists would not hesitate to if they had it available to them.

      I’m not at all suggesting that we should. I am just saying that THIS is the reason we will never win in Afghanistan/Iraq/anywhere - we are fighting them following a code of conduct and accountability that they don’t have to abide by. They know this and exploit it to their advantage at every opportunity.

    • JC says:

      10:58am | 27/08/10

      I agree Wombat, no only should they be home fighting, but the male asylum seekers are like cockroaches, you let one in and soon enough the whole extended family is here.

    • JAX says:

      10:57am | 27/08/10

      Ray is going to go nuclear on that one, you will get more of his rant about women and equality blah blah woof woof.

    • Macon Paine says:

      08:25am | 27/08/10

      Oh Tory you’ve opened a can of worms with this one! I say give Bob Brown his debate, lets end this once and for all. Anyway im off to get some popcorn then i’ll return later to see the fireworks!

    • Ray Graham says:

      08:19am | 27/08/10

      Well Tory my well documented view on this is that we are wasting our young men’s lives on someone else’s cultural problem that is 10 times older than ours. It will regress when ever we leave.

      Above all though I am moved by the loss of our lives which are exclusively men, with attendant injuries. We seem to consider male lives expendable. And some things have to be said. If it were women dying we’d have been gone long ago’

      Women claim a desire equality but in reality it is a convenience not practised.

      I honour and salute those fallen soldiers and their obvious belief in the cause for which they are fighting. I respect their absolute commitment. B

      However I see two issues here. 1, the obligation to a lost cause, and 2. That the male lives are condescended, while publicly we refer to our men AND women in Afghanistan. With (2) the respect is redirected from those malking the ultimate sacrifice to a shared dilution under the politically correct baqnner. I do not see that as a matter that can be lightly dsismissed.

      I once attended an Anzac Day ceremony (every other year as well) where the female Colonel referred to ‘the men and women who stormed the beaches at Gallipoli’. I was appalled.

    • Ray says:

      10:43pm | 27/08/10

      I’m saying that the men don’t get due recognition because we’re too concerned about including women. Women are not in the front line because the line is only as strong as its weakest link. Can’t say that though.

    • Sickemrex says:

      02:21pm | 27/08/10

      Well it’s a moot point given that Australian female soldiers can’t serve in combat positions.  You are whinging that they don’t and no doubt would whinge if they did.  The same tired old men that get the sooks when a female police officer shows up at a job.

    • Ray Graham says:

      02:17pm | 27/08/10

      How sweet Kordez, but the fact remains that it has always been men who make the ultimate sacrifice and women who seek the dis-proportion of recognition, thereby diluting where that sentiment should be placed. It is not a point to get bogged down on but women or other idealists are so tight about it, when military service and recognition should be saluted without favour.  To chill out and recognise that military service and sacrifice should be above petty ideals thrust on society would be best. I repeat I am appalled at the indifference to these male deaths as though it were something that goes with the territory. Politicians are sticking with it.

    • Kordez says:

      01:11pm | 27/08/10

      @Ray, I’m no defence force strategist or mission analyst, but it makes sense for genetically fortunate male strength and durability to lead in the front line of our efforts in Afghanistan.
      Just because a majority of males are found to be on the front line does not indicate a decline in value of tasks females continue to complete, they have accepted the same risk to their life just as any Australian trooper has, and man and woman work as a team to achieve the same result.
      Therefore men and women is an appropriate phrase to pass when referring to achievements any Australian has made in his/her duties while serving in our defence force.
      Passing sexist comments could only reduce the compassion any soldier deserves to receive if they were to die in battle.

    • Ray Graham says:

      11:37am | 27/08/10

      Kordez, it’s only the men dying,

      Sickemrex, the reason is selective equality

      I am sickened by the ambivalence to young men dying, their children being left, and the political expediancy in the reason. Aas well as a reluctance to give men the exclusive recognition when deserved. Their honour is undeservedly diluted.

      Bring ‘em home.It’s n ot our fight.

    • Sickemrex says:

      10:11am | 27/08/10

      Why do most debates on most forums end up degenerating to something bad to do with women?  There could be an article on here about endangered golden bell frogs in the Dominican Republic and someone would manage to bag out women in some way.

      The author is right, the mixed messages from Canberra (ie we’re there to stop terrorists/liberate the people, it’s going ok/about right/don’t know) is making the loss of those people’s lives difficult to justify.

    • Kordez says:

      09:23am | 27/08/10

      @Ray, there are women and men in Afganistan.

    • notsurprised says:

      08:18am | 27/08/10

      ...and the the Soviets were in Afghanistan for 911 too, right? There are deeper reasons for for western forces to be concerned about Afghanistan and some of its neighbours.

    • Gregg says:

      04:11pm | 28/08/10

      Well Chongy,
      Not that I’m not surprised but for starters have you ever thought of the word Strategy, like in Afghanistan being a strategic location to them.

      Their intrusion was at a time before much more strife in their Stans provinces and sunsequent independence generally.

      But from Afghanistan if they could have held on they would have been a lot closer to more oil fields and also not too much effort to convince Pakistan that some excising of relatively barren unpopulated territory may have been an appropriate guesture to give them Indian Ocean access.

      Commercialising the Poppy industry and minerals development could have been a bonus.

    • James1 says:

      04:23pm | 27/08/10

      Having a better reason to be there in no way increases our prospects of success.

    • T.Chong says:

      08:31am | 27/08/10

      notsurprised: please use the opportunity to list some of the deeper reasons.

    • Super D says:

      08:13am | 27/08/10

      I’m not sure what we’re doing in Afghanistan.  We can’t win or rather we can’t stomach doing what it will actually take to win.  We are trying to fight a war with kid gloves against an opponent who is more than happy to dish out extreme brutality. 

      I think the best we can do is pull out now and make it well known if there are any military threats they will be taken out but forget trying to redesign their culture.

    • pmg says:

      01:55pm | 27/08/10

      Clearly some people will believe any nonsense the government feeds them. Anyone who thinks we are in Afghanistan to “help the people” is either delusional or mentally deficient. As has always been the case the war in Afghanistan is about securing access to resources. The pipeline from the Caspian Sea is what this war was always about - the US bases dotted along the proposed route says it all. Tommy Franks famously said that capturing Bin Laden was “not part of my mission” because he knew the score. The Saudis also treat their women with contempt and as third class citizens but since the oil flows freely there is no need to mention that as it would then be obvious to all what a sham it is to claim the war in Afghanistan is about US concern for the women of Afghanistan. Talk about gullible.

    • thomas vesely says:

      10:22am | 27/08/10

      spot on,

    • Davido says:

      08:02am | 27/08/10

      Debate is good and in my opinion we need to be there.

      I don’t expect them to welcome us and guess what I don’t care. If you don’t want us there,then stop harbouring and fostering terrorists, stop growing drugs and start respecting the rights of individuals.

      The Taliban are on a par with the Nazis and they need to be stopped now. Whatever the cost is now it is much less than that we will face in the future.

    • Davido says:

      07:13am | 28/08/10

      To eliminate the Taliban you need to destroy the factors that allow them to flourish. To my mind this includes:

      - a deficient political and taxation system in Afghanistan;
      - sympathetic, soft and compliant political states;
      - cultural acceptance or tyrannical regimes both in Afghanistan and elsewhere (Pakistan for one!);
      - drug money;
      - religious based funding and schooling (read brainwashing); and
      - the ready availability of arms.

      Ultimately, as people have pointed out, you need to win over the hearts of the people. To do this you need to engage and embrace moderate Islam as a legitimate and beneficial religion. Only with the help of the moderate Muslim will you defeat the scourge that is the Taliban.

      I would suggest that setting up and funding a school system (controlled from outside of Afghanistan) that taught moderate religious values would have at least as much impact on this issue as military action.

    • AdamC says:

      02:18pm | 27/08/10

      Davido, I agree with your sentiments here, but the problem is that simply eliminating the Taliban is not a viable endgame - they will simply come back. Afghanistan needs the infrastructure, governance and institutions in place to repel the Taliban, or else we will keep sinking back into the quicksand.

      In the past, of course, one would simply have made the country a protectorate and governed it directly. This strategy is now politically unfashionable, which leaves the western armies reliant on ineffectual and duplicitous locals to try to govern themselves. A feat which Afghanistan has not achieved, to my understanding, ever.

      What baffles me is that the US continues to refuse to intervene directly in the governance of Afghanistan, despite being constantly criticised for being ‘imperialistic’. If you are going to be criticised for something, you may as well actually do it!

    • PaulB says:

      01:41pm | 27/08/10

      The Taliban were of no consequence to any of us until the Americans carried out their (preplanned before 911) attack on Afghanistan.  BTW, the Taliban largely eliminated the poppy fields claiming cultivation of drugs was “Unislamic”.  Under the US backed puppet regime poppy cultivation is at an all time high.  Can’t some of you people stop repeating crap you’ve read in Murdoch papers as though its some kind of gospel truth?  You know better from this truly abhorrent organisation.

    • LJ says:

      12:14pm | 27/08/10

      I’ve opposed every war Australia has been involved in in my lifetime, but in this case, I think we need to stay and fight. In fact, our presence there should be increased.

      The Taliban is an organisation that right at this moment is threatening to kill apolitical humanitarian aid workers in neighbouring Pakistan who are trying to help the millions dispossessed by the floods. They would rather their kin died from natural disaster than be helped by the Western world. So they must have nothing but contempt for their own people, who they want living back in barbaric conditions under barbaric laws.

      We can’t allow these backward regimes to flower for any longer. It’s hypocritical for us - who would be in the streets rioting if our leaders tried to make us live like people did 2000 years ago - to say it’s ok for another culture to subject its own people to such barbarism.

    • John A Neve says:

      07:47am | 27/08/10

      There is no good or rational reason for us to be in Afghanistan. The reason is purely political and is all about sucking up to the US of A.

      Just look at the results is Iraq. Over 4,000 troops of the coalition of the willing dead, over 34,000 wounded and over 100,0000 civilians dead. We are leaving Iraq in a worse state than when we went there.

      Sadly our young men and women are being used for political purposes, not to defend Australia.

    • TheRealDave says:

      03:02pm | 27/08/10

      @John what oil would that be in Afghanistan?

      So now its Oil, Gas and now trillions of dollars in minerals - just in this comments section alone.

      You conspiracy nuts need to fine tune your performance, you’re all over the shop. Get together and workshop it out. Don’t come back to us till you have agree on what conspiracy theory it is.

    • John Adams says:

      02:15pm | 27/08/10

      @Phil
      How about the good and rational reason of helping people out of opression and teaching them about democracy in Sudan?

      We follow in the foot steps of the US, they aren’t there so why should we be?

      Afghan and Middle Eastern initiatives that we are involved in is purely the BUSINESS of oil!

    • PaulB says:

      01:36pm | 27/08/10

      Phill, we NEVER went to Iraq or Afghanistan for that reason.  That was a later justification from the professional liars of the media to feed us after the “WMD…Imminent attack” scare proved to be without foundation, as many of us suspected from the start.  Either your memory is short or your vision is blinkered.

    • John A Neve says:

      01:31pm | 27/08/10

      Samuel,
      No, I did not know that, thank you for telling me. Pehaps you could tell me where we are?

    • John A Neve says:

      12:52pm | 27/08/10

      Phill,
      To the families of those killed, does it matter who did the deed?
      We did not go there to teach them about “democracy”, it was about WMD, remember?
      But you tell me, are they anny better off?

    • TheRealDave says:

      12:38pm | 27/08/10

      @Phill - less than 20% by most UN reports

    • Phill says:

      11:06am | 27/08/10

      How about the good and rational reason of helping people out of opression and teaching them about democracy?
      You say 1,000,000 civilians dead.  I think you would be suprised how few of those deaths were caused by our side as opposed to the insurgents.

    • Samuel says:

      09:49am | 27/08/10

      You do realise that Afghanistan and Iraq aren’t the same place, right?

    • david says:

      07:33am | 27/08/10

      are you sure this is not turning into another vietnam.500 odd troops kia and for what reason.to pull out when the yanks leave,suffer our losses.then let the north take over.the people of vietnam are now liberated.for our loss.get out of afghanastan while we still have time.save our soldiers.

    • Brian says:

      03:24am | 28/08/10

      So David, you have written just what I was looking for.
      Do you really want to create another generation of Veterans’ who will spend the rest of their lives questioning themselves about their war, their abilities, their sacrifices, their being? The 508 KIA in Viet-Nam, plus the many DOW, WIA etc just listed as casualties, would argue with you, as would my many mates who have been involved in the War Against Terror “the medal clasp says ‘ICAT’ or INTERNATIONAL Coalition Against Terror”.
      Yes, we went down a similar path in Viet-Nam, but the men and women who went came home to be under-appreciated for over 25 years. Take the Politicians out of the equation, and let the forces persecute their mission(s) - That’s their job. I proudly display several stickers, from my car to my laptop, imploring Australians to “Support Our Forces”!
      I suggest you do the same

    • T.Chong says:

      07:01am | 27/08/10

      Our “mission"was / is to invade another country, occupy parts of it , and kill anyone who opposes our occupation of their homeland.
      The US is in Afghanistan while it seeks blood revenge for 9/11, and Oz, once agin , is doing the bidding of a foreign overlord.
      If Australia was invaded, and occupied, I’m sure all us true blue, dinki-di sons and daughters patriots of this land would take to the hills, or stay put, but we would all do our best to rid ourselves of a foreign military presence thru direct or indirect means, would we not,?
      Yet for some strange reason we expect the Afghans to roll over,welcome, accept the civilian casualties we have caused, and collaborate with our military occupation.
      Just as well we know whats best for them isnt it?

    • thomas vesely says:

      11:02am | 31/08/10

      “If Australia was invaded, and occupied”
      i would ask john howard where the guns are?

    • RJP says:

      03:18pm | 29/08/10

      It’s not about the Afghans, Chongy…it’s about TERRORISM!!!  How would YOU feel if no other nation came to our aid in the event of a Terrorist invasion?  Do you honestly believe it will never happen here?  If you do, then you are VERY naive!!  We already have “sleepers” here and once they get the call to awaken, then I hope to God there are countries out there that will come and help us get rid of them!!  It’s about Global stability and if we can’t control it, we will have more and more ppl who will come to Australia seeking “asylum” and drain our resources….then we will have them fighting amongst themselves here…

    • Markd says:

      11:02pm | 28/08/10

      What right do you think you have to say that? these brave boys are their to serve Australia regardless what race you may be yes you may have the right to have your say because australia is a place of peace! but will you fight for australia or your country of origin? I have served my son is serving and my father has served so do not dis respect our Boys!

    • Gregg says:

      03:55pm | 28/08/10

      Peter,
      You do repeat yourself but just like Julia says moving forward repeatedly does not mean we will nor does your repeating mean what you say is any truer and you yourself have actually distorted words for
      ” The Japanese would have rolled over our fathers and grandfathers if not for the “foreign overlord”. “
      is quite a bit different to
      ” The Americans were here in WW2 to serve themselves. Any perception that they were here to save Australia is complete rubbish. We were a convenient base for them.
      It is completely false to suggest the USA were here to protect Australians… There were always just looking after their own interests.. “

      Now sure they entered the war in the pacific because of the attack on Pearl Harbour but just how Australia would have fared against the Japanese without their entry into the conflict is another matter entirely.

      And if by your statements including perception and suggestion you feel that an inference was made to what You describe, then your statements are total BS.

      What is quite possibly beyond doubt is that we should be most thankful for the Americans being drawn into the conflict even if the cause of that drawing was not so desired.

    • Nick says:

      07:45pm | 27/08/10

      T , Chong, ur a armchair expert i actually work with up to 20 afghanis in Kabul who are happy that America and other countries are actually letting them have jobs , schooling and education for their kids , people like you really discust me sitting back writing about things you have no idea about , stop hugging trees and actually open your eyes, , does it make you wonder why there are virtually no attacks in Kabul , Its because the Afghanis there are educated have faciilities school etc where as in the poorer Tallban infested areas they have nothing.

    • Peter says:

      02:07pm | 27/08/10

      @ Bald Eagle. The Americans were here in WW2 to serve themselves. Any perception that they were here to save Australia is complete rubbish. We were a convenient base for them.

      Even England weren’t interested in Australian soliders coming back to protect our homeland.

      It is completely false to suggest the USA were here to protect Australians… There were always just looking after their own interests..

      Let’s not re-write history and pretend that the USA came here to look after Australia. It was just by-product…

    • Peter says:

      02:05pm | 27/08/10

      @ Bald Eagle. The Americans were here in WW2 to serve themselves. Any perception that they were here to save Australia is complete rubbish. We were a convenient base for them.

      Even England weren’t interested in Australian soliders coming back to protect our homeland.

      It is completely false to suggest the USA were here to protect Australians… There were always just looking after their own interests..

      Let’s not re-write history and pretend that the USA came here to look after Australia. It was just by-product…

    • Carter Billingham says:

      11:36am | 27/08/10

      We need to break ties with the US Redneck nation completely. Get out of Afghanistan - make sure we don’t get involved in the upcoming attacking on Iran. And start worrying about the top end of Australia.

    • Bald Eagle says:

      08:49am | 27/08/10

      Once agin doing the bidding of a foreign overlord.

      The Japanese would have rolled over our fathers and grandfathers if not for the “foreign overlord”.

      You are either with us or against us. If you want to support the Taliban, ask David Hicks how to go about it. I’m sure he can tell you where to send those donations and how to sign up.

    • D Chung says:

      08:01am | 27/08/10

      Have you spoken to the mainstream citizens in Afghanistan?  Do they support their continued suppression under Taliban terrorists?  Would they enjoy a democratic life and freedom of association and act?  You only imagine the finer details of occupation.

      With respect to Australia, what if the new occupiers determined ethnic cleansing was desirable?  No hills would protect you.  We have vast valuable resources, enviable lifestyle and physical country.

      Without the most powerful ally in the world, we would not be here.

 

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