George Bernard Shaw once observed that the statistics about death are very impressive - one out of one people dies. So why don’t we give more thought to what happens after we die? A 10-minute cab ride on Christmas Eve reminded me of a question we all need to ask, but rarely do.

If this guy can get in the rest of us must have a fighting chance. Cartoon: Warren Brown

I jumped in the cab at Chatswood with a spring in my step - I’d successfully completed my Christmas shopping - shopping I’d foolishly left until the last minute. When I asked the driver where he was up to with his present-buying, he explained that as a Muslim, he and his family wouldn’t be celebrating Christmas.

Instead, they would be holding their own celebration a couple of months later in a traditional Persian celebration that would appear, on the outside at least, much the same as a traditional Australian Christmas, minus of course, any references to God himself dwelling among us as he is born as a baby.

Given the diverse collection of interesting conversations I’ve experienced with cab drivers, I thought I’d take the opportunity to ask the driver what being a Muslim meant to him. Was he a regular at his local mosque? No - in fact, he’d never stepped foot into one in his life.

Does being a Muslim require him to not drink? “Certainly not - it’s the 21st century afterall, what an out-dated expectation!” In fact, as the conversation continued, it became clear that my Iranian-born taxi driver shared the three-part faith common to many Australians - a belief in God, a conviction in the goodness of humanity, and the unfounded hope of a happy ending.

I know it’s a bit heavier than most taxi conversations, but I’m always fascinated to hear what other people think will happen to them when they die. And so I asked - “One second after you have breathed your last, where will you be?” I’ve asked this question many times before, of many different people (not always in cabs), and the response is almost always the same:

“I don’t know, but probably heaven”.

Of course, there’s the occasional atheist who is convinced that they have no eternal soul that will endure beyond their last breath, but from my random sampling, these are few and far between.

Generally speaking, Australians are pretty confident that ‘this’ isn’t all there is, and when life’s umpire raises his finger to the sky and sends them back to the dressing room, they will find themselves in a ‘better place’.

While this is certainly a nice thought, whenever anyone expresses this sentiment I usually respond with two follow-up questions.

Firstly, what evidence do you have that there is a ‘better place’?

And secondly, what confidence do you have that you will be going there?

My conversation partner is usually stumped at these two questions, responding vaguely along the lines of “there’s got to be more to life than this” and “I’m a pretty good person - I can’t see why I wouldn’t get in to heaven”. I’ve discovered that only a shallow scratch beneath the surface reveals that many Australians have neither evidence nor confidence to back their eternal aspirations.

What I find fascinating and, to be honest, fairly disturbing, is the massive disconnect between the gravity of the question - where will you be after you die - and the passing consideration most Australians give to it.

I recall walking around Canberra’s Lake Burley Griffin with a colleague one lunchtime, several years ago. I asked him this same question - what do you think happens when you die? He was upfront in explaining that he was backing himself for heaven, but he couldn’t provide much more detail as to why.

I asked him if he was going to look into this question in more depth, to garner some certainty about his eternal destiny. His response - “I just don’t have the time at the moment”. He didn’t know when his last moment would actually be, but he was confident enough that it wouldn’t come anytime soon.

I didn’t get it. Such an important question, with far-reaching implications, but receiving such little interest.

To be sure, we’re daily faced with a barrage of questions of varying degrees of importance. To rent or own? Send the kids to a public or private school? Flat white or latte? To get behind, or completely disown the Australian cricket team? However, it seems that many Australians would spend more time researching the best mobile phone provider than they would consider where they will be, one second after they die.

Of course, if our final destination is completely independent of any choices we make pre-death, there’s no point giving even a moments consideration to this question.

But what if the decisions we make now, in this life, impact where we find ourselves in the ever-after? Surely you’d want to be sure - one way or the other? Surely if bad news awaited, and there was an escape plan, you’d want to find out while you still could?

If life is like driving down a straight road, most people would consider death to be a sharp right-hand turn at the end of the road. Everyone goes around the corner eventually - but what is around that corner? Is it good news or bad news?

Sure, you can use your imagination and hope that there’s a Krispy Kreme store selling delicious jam-filled, dentist-delighting donuts, but that store won’t be there just because you want it to be. It’s either there, or it’s not. And so surely, before you come around the corner, you want to be sure of what will be there - so you can prepare yourself appropriately.

If it’s a donut store, you want to prepare yourself by not having lunch. If it’s a flooded roadway, you want to start slowing down. If it’s a cliff, you want to slam on the brakes. So the next question is - is it possible to know what is around that corner before we get there?

As a Christian, I believe it is possible. The Bible is both the authority and road-sign that I place my hope and confidence in. In the Bible we read that all people who have ever lived will experience a day of judgement. For some people, the result of this judgement will be to continue to experience relationship with God in heaven, for eternity.

At Christmas we remember how this was made possible - Jesus came into the world to provide forgiveness for our sins, to restore our broken relationship with God, and to enable all who trust in him to enjoy eternal life.

However, the Bible is also very clear in explaining that there is an alternative - a place called hell - where all who desire to continue to live separate to God and his rule will be permitted to do just that. Their destiny will be a place where God, the source of all goodness, will be absent. There are two alternatives, the Bible explains, and everyone makes the choice.

C.S. Lewis, the author of the Narnia series, put it this way:

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.” All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”

The Christian message isn’t a new message, and I can anticipate many objections to what I believe and why. My point isn’t to convince you to believe what I believe, nor to defend the Christian gospel in a couple of paragraphs.

No, my purpose is to urge you to work out what you do believe, and to make sure you’ve got some evidence and ultimately some confidence, to back up whatever that might be. Don’t go round that last corner blind-folded. The consequences are simply too great to just cross your fingers and hope for the best.

598 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • B says:

      05:02pm | 21/01/11

      “No, my purpose is to urge you to work out what you do believe, and to make sure you’ve got some evidence and ultimately some confidence, to back up whatever that might be.”

      Okay, sure. So: what’s your evidence for the Christian belief you rambled on about? OH WAIT there isn’t any. So why do you believe it?

      And why, given that there is no evidence for your nonsensical post-mortem beliefs, do you insist others must provide evidence for theirs?

    • Alkem says:

      01:08pm | 14/01/11

      Life after death strikes me too much as a fear of the inevitable. We all die, that’s something no-one can argue.

      After that I follow KISS- Having the ability to weigh a body before and after death, modern science has proved that a soul cannot be of any ‘physical’ nature, so it’s either ethereal, or not real.
      Time was people thought that when you died you’d become a star, or go live in the clouds. We now know that stars are balls of burning gases, and the clouds are no more substatial or full of dead people than the steam off your tea, so there goes that one.

      O course the way in which life after death is explained as more of these purely natural phenomena are explored and discovered, but frankly, those pining for something else after ‘this’ is all done for really does strike me as pure, unadulterated fear.

      Frankly, i love my life, enjoy it to it’s full, and when it ends, it ends.
      Que sera, Sera.

    • Greg Kasarik says:

      02:41am | 09/01/11

      The irony of this whole debate is its ultimate futility, which arises from what I call the Eternity Paradox: We are either eternal, or we are not, but can never know which. The possibility of death is the great leveler of all sentients, including those which we would regard as Divine.

      That god can never know if god is God is one of the logical constraints of Divine sentience. With no mechanism to adequately determine that he is genuninely omniscient, he is just as much in the dark about his own future and the possibility of demise as the rest of us.

      At best, god if he exists can only offer us a provisional respite from death. One that is based on his own necessarily imperfect understanding of the universe and his own place within it.

      God understands and dreads his own oblivion just as do we, which is reassuring, because it means that he understands our greatest fear and one of our greatest motivators, for both good and ill.

      Despite the assurances offered by clerics, for whom the adherence to thoughtless dogma is held in high regard, there are no easy answers to the vexing question of death. We may as well learn to live with our fear and come to terms with it, because it will be our companion even if we ultimately live for an Eternity.

    • True Believer says:

      05:29pm | 20/01/11

      @Judas:

      Well I guess you know all there is to know. No point in anyone telling you anything.  Would be fine if you were not so wrong. One day you will find I spoke the truth.  In the mean time I wish you well.

    • Judas says:

      04:15pm | 19/01/11

      @True Believer,

      Faith is not courageous.

      Faith (as I believe you refer to it) is blind ignorance, intellectual sloth, abdication of reason and the fearful rejection of ones own mortality.

      Admitting that one is a mortal, with no soul;  realising that this is the one chance one has, that embracing a Jewish zombie wont make you any less dead and gone when you die… that is, I would contend, slightly more courageous than “faith” wink

    • True Believer says:

      09:57am | 19/01/11

      @Judas:

      Firstly, I am not a ‘god-botherer’ as you rudely put it, if
      Greg is well that means nothing to me.  I read his article, nothing there told me he knew Jesus or is a Christian - so pray tell how am I supposed to do “research”?? 

      Perhaps if you did a little less “research” and had the courage to take the leap of faith you would find you are sadly mistaken in your beliefs.
      Only you can do that, no one else can do it for you.
      As for your smart reply about Mexico - very cute - but proves nothing other than that your knowledge of Jesus the Son of God is zero.

      I wish you well. Go on,, try faith, it beats the limitations of human understanding which currently have you trapped. :0)

    • Judas says:

      03:16pm | 17/01/11

      @True Believer,

      I met Jesus once too - it was when I was traveling through Arizona, just north of the Mexican border.

      He was standing on the side of the street, asking passers by if they had any work going, gardening, cleaning, labouring - he was happy to do any of it.

      Of course, he was an illegal immigrant and had no papers and called himself “Hey Zeus”.

      I didn’t want to get close enough really to embrace him in any way, but just wanted to let you know that you are right, we all meet Jesus in different ways.

      By the way, you might want to do a bit of research about Greg before putting your foot into your mouth - he is a god botherer as well - but then again, “faith” generally tends to eclipse the need for any kind of research doesn’t it? :p

    • True Believer says:

      08:15pm | 09/01/11

      Greg Kasarik:

      You have a lot of lofty sounding words, but that is all they are - words. 

      I met Jesus as my Lord and Saviour without the aid of “clerics” so you assumptions about how He reveals Himself is quite erroneous.

      Jesus is there it is you who shut Him out with your lofty thoughts and disbelief.  You are missing out on so much and have such a hopeless outlook - it is sad.

    • VR says:

      11:10am | 07/01/11

      There is an evidence that I have a car: I can see it in my garage. Consequently, I can drive it.

      There is no evidence that I have a helicopter. However, there is also no evidence that I have no helicopter (it may be parked in the airport, not in my garage). But regardless of the latter statement I still can not fly my helicopter. Because I indeed do not have it.

      There is no evidence that I do not have a yacht. There is no evidence that I do not have a submarine. There is no evidence that I do not have a spaceship. However, I would be pretty dumb to brag that I owe them based on the fact that there is no otherwise evidence, wouldn’t I?

      Thus, I can plan my trips by car and I can go to Sydney tomorrow if I like. But if I plan to go to Mars or to visit Titanic tomorrow using my spaceship or my submarine, you would say I am stupid.

      This is what I can say about your plans related to something that has neither evidence for nor against…

    • Leaping Judas says:

      08:22pm | 06/01/11

      “Of course, there’s the occasional atheist who is convinced that they have no eternal soul that will endure beyond their last breath, but from my random sampling, these are few and far between.”

      The above rates as perhaps the most inane and ludicrous sentence that I have ever read on The Punch (or anywhere else for that matter).

      “my random sampling” - how exactly did this process take place? Did you approach strangers on the street, asked them if they were atheists, then pose them a question about an “eternal soul”?

      I would venture to suggest that your “random sampling” would more accurately be described as an “assumption”, and an absurd one at that.

      The concept of the soul, in the context that you are using it, is a theistic one.

      If an atheist were to suggest that he or she may in fact have a soul, I would contend that they could no longer be called an atheist, for it would imply that they adhered, at least in part, to some form of theistic belief.

      At best, they could be called an agnostic.

      Quite a foolish assertion you have made really.

    • Leaping Judas says:

      07:55pm | 06/01/11

      ” petery says: 09:30am | 01/01/11

      Kerry packer was a very rich man who believed in nothing but money, and from all accounts was not a very nice human being. i would not expect that person to see anything or any value in an afterlife. His arrogance and money would be no use to him there”

      Is this the same Kerry Packer who, after having had a heart attack at a polo game at a time that defibrillators were in about one in one hundred ambulances, was lucky enough to happen to have one such equipped ambulance in the area - that promptly saved his life?

      Is this the same Kerry Packer who, after learning that not all ambulances in the country were equipped with this life saving device, paid for every single ambulance in NSW to be fitted out with them because it wasn’t fair that not everyone had the same chance of being revived as he happened to as a result of a stroke of luck?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packer_Whackers#Popular_culture_references

      Sounds like a real bastard to me…

    • mrs r says:

      04:46pm | 06/01/11

      It’s always interesting to hear what others believe.

      My belief is that all of our spirits return to God, and those that are good go to paradise (happiness, rest, peace). Those who chose evil over good will be “cast out”.
      We can be with our families for eternity.

    • Gaetano says:

      08:13am | 06/01/11

      I don’t mean to say this with malice, but I’m confident that most (all) people who believe in a God and an afterlife are so petrified of death and the end that they need that safety, that comfort in their minds that something amazing happens after.  Unfortunately (for people of faith), heaven, hell, God, religion, and fate are all man-made things, and man is a very, very insignificant life form in the universe, which is essentially a place of infinite nature.  How does one embrace such a negative outlook?  Consider a few things.  Firstly, the universe is infinite, but that doesn’t make the chances of life higher.  The laws of physics in THIS universe allow life to occur (try and wrap your head around that - this universe is infinite, but it’s not the only universe.  It’s quite widely accepted that our universe is part of a multi-verse, filled with other universes).  The fusion of gases, gravity and all that jazz provide the platform for life.  However, that seemingly perfect fusion of physics is actually an ACCIDENT and not perfect at all; an imperfection that helps define this universe.  One of the most respected laws of the universe is that, “the only perfection is imperfection”.  That is, NOTHING is perfect.  Our fear of death is a MASSIVE imperfection, because fear initiates uncertainty.  Fear is a negative emotion.  So in a way, that defines us.  However, you have to counter that.  We are so lucky to even exist (I wish I could elaborate on that, but I don’t think The Punch allows for 50,000 word comments).  How do you counter it?  Live your life to the fullest AND STOP FEARING DEATH!  The very fact that we die is another IMPERFECTION.  Death DEFINES us.  It defines life and it is NATURAL.  However, I have come to accept the existence of fear and the belief in God, because our very ability to think (I think, therefore I am) gives us the opportunity to even have the emotion of fear in the first place, which is a tragically romantic thing.  Secondly, there are many, many questions in the universe that we will NEVER be able to answer.  An inability to answer a question of the universe DOES NOT equate to the existence of a God, but it doesn’t degrade the notion either.  However, the probable notion is that there is a scientific explanation, because no matter how imperfect things in the universe are, there’s a perfected flow of progression - the only perfection is imperfection.  Every question we’ve answered about the universe has come to from a probable conclusion.  The question of “what happens after death?” can’t be bundled with a question like “what’s at the end of the universe?”, because, pending we last long enough, we can most definitely answer the latter.  In fact, we’re already able to answer that question, albeit based on images that show the universe at its birth.  The reason some people don’t take the question so seriously is because they don’t want to be burdened with the thought of death and the fear associated with it.  I don’t want to die, but I’ve accepted it’s going to happen eventually.  In saying all of that, the mind is a mysterious thing, and for all we know, the mind may very well continue living once we die.  Can the mind function without the brain?  Can our subconscious continue on once we die?  Perhaps once everything shuts down, we go into an infinite dream state, which equates to our own heaven.  Maybe you’re dead now, and maybe that’s the answer to deja vu?  It might sound far-fetched, but as an Atheist, it’s more believable than LITERALLY walking on clouds and approaching some pearly white gates.

    • True Believer says:

      08:56am | 19/01/11

      @Gaetano:

      Could it be your vision of all there is restricted by what you call “facts” - yes there are many “facts” that science can prove, we take the scientists word for it of course, there are “facts” which we can know through our senses. However, there are greater facts that cannot be known by the human carnal mind.  Because I know the Lord I know this to be true. Not because of any cleverness in man, as your facts depend on, or in me, but because God is who He is, Jesus is who He said He is and the Holy Spirit alone can open a person’s spiritual eyes to know these facts.

      I understand you cannot yet comprehend them, that not because of any deficiency in you but because you choose apparently to be restricted to just the materialistic, rationalistic world.  There is more, much, much more. Like you before I came to know Jesus I too would have thought the way you do.

    • Gaetano says:

      08:21pm | 07/01/11

      An idea of a spiritual death is based around the concept of faith and the existence of a God; don’t speak like as if faith is the be all and end all in life.  My dimension accepts, appreciates and acknowledges the acceptance of God, Jesus and the hope for an afterlife, and I don’t mean to degrade that faith.  However, I cannon conceivable agree that anyone with even a limited knowledge of the universe would believe, without a doubt, that there is an afterlife as promised by the many religions of this world.  They don’t “know” anything; “faith” insinuates belief in something unproven, and NO ONE can “know” and have “sure knowledge” of the afterlife.  The way you speak is exactly what fuels this debate; you’re having a constructive discussion with people who rely on fact, and yet you attempt to get your point across by saying you “know” and have “sure knowledge” of something that has not and never will be proven by the naked eye.

    • True Believer says:

      11:10am | 06/01/11

      Gaetano:

      So much knowledge, so little wisdom.

      You know very little about Christianity that is for sure - Christians do not fear death, they know spiritual death (and that is the important one but you will not find that in science) has been overcome by Jesus. We have the sure knowledge of what life after death holds.  Your perception is lacking a dimension.

      I hope you as you mature will find that there is so much more than science books. I wish you a much brighter outlook on what life is really all about.

    • Kika says:

      02:28pm | 04/01/11

      What happens to me when I die? Well I die. Plain and simple. My body will either rot in a coffin or be cremated. Unfortunately that’s the reality of life. Maybe some form of consciousness will live on. But there aint no heaven, aint no hell there’s only the present so I try to live mindful of the present. Yes, I am Buddhist. I

    • Milly says:

      02:18pm | 04/01/11

      Whether there is a God or not we NEED faith, hope and love to survive and be really happy (now where have I heard that before?).  Sounds rather fanciful, but true.  You can’t escape it - all else is existing really…...

    • Michael C says:

      12:53pm | 04/01/11

      It’s like that little speck on your eyeball that slips to the side as you try to focus on it. These types of discussions always get off the point. I have no idea what is going to happen to me when I die, or whether any action in my life will affect it in anyway. I do have a morbid curiosity towards it though, and I think that is healthy.
      Here is a little paradox about existence. For it to exist, it needs to exist within something. I quite like this in relation to the idea of motion too. Motion can only be observed in relation to something else. Without a point of reference there is no observable motion.
      And now some of my favourite possibilities, in no specific order -
      1 - This is a virtual reality simulator which I am in for fun, punishment, learning or maybe only as a piece of artificial intelligence for someone else
      2 - This is actually some sort of hell. I think the worst part about hell would be the knowing its hell and choosing not to leave. Like living in this horrible annoying place haunted by regret of a wasted youth, while my beautiful children give me more joy then I thought I could imagine.
      3 - We are in a dream state while hibernating on an intergalactic starship on its way to populate a new solar system
      4 - My thoughts and ego are self defence mechanisms and there is no self and when I die I will turn to dust and be no more
      5 - This is just a dream
      To sum it all up though, I’d say I’m a solipsist

    • Jimmy says:

      12:37am | 03/01/11

      So Rosie believes “in “bad karma” which is what Julia Gillard has brought upon this country because of the controversial way she gained power to become Australia’s first female, atheist, unwed, childless PM. “

      Can the moderators please stop giving these confused, misogynous, bigoted, archaically minded persons the time of day? We’ve had to build the NBN to create the bandwith to load all of these ill concieved comments and misconstrued retorts and - apart from wasting our dollars (maybe an ignoramus tax is in order?) - it grinds he gears of the more informed, open minded public.

      And, yes, I realise the irony in making such a noiseless diatribe and I do apologise if you were forced to load this and are still waiting for your porn to stream. I feel your pain.

    • Jimmy says:

      11:56pm | 02/01/11

      “much the same as a traditional Australian Christmas, minus of course, any references to God himself dwelling among us as he is born as a baby.”

      Just thought I’d let you know, Steve, an Aussie Xmas is much the same as a traditional dark age christmas, minus of course, any references to God himself dwelling among us as he is born as a baby. Warnie and Ablett are worshipped on other days.

    • Kika says:

      02:48pm | 04/01/11

      And very similar to the pre-christian pagan winter solstice festivals across Europe. I never read in the bible Jesus was born on Dec 25 either. What a crappy day for a birthday. Christmas day!

    • Ray says:

      10:36pm | 02/01/11

      Pleading ignorance of Hell is not prudent defence to offer on Judgement Day.

    • John Smith says:

      02:54pm | 02/01/11

      Rosie:

      It’s the religious nut jobs such as yourself that make me so grateful for not believing in ANY religion.

      I’m still waiting for a sensible answer to the question I’ve asked all my life - If god created us, this universe & everything in it, who or what created God? Please explain, preferably in a language I might understand.

      Thank God I’m an atheist!!!

    • Kika says:

      02:35pm | 04/01/11

      Theories of course there was ‘nothing’ before the big bang! But what it was we’re not 100% sure of yet. Hydrogen and Oxygen on their own are not water, but when they are fused in chemical bonding with the correct amount of atoms they become water. Simple science but I am confident that something like that occurred prior to the big bang.

      For all we know the world was created by a fart. It’s possible! Some alien out there could have farted and the molecules in the fart smashed together forming the universe as we know it. Who says we’re the ants pants? Bacteria probably think they’re pretty important too. God is an alien and his creation was a fart. Hahahaha

    • Theories. says:

      01:35am | 03/01/11

      If God is a “creator” why do they need someone to create God?
      sometimes Faith can play a part,

      just like when people think about the Big Bang, how can something come out of nothing?

      thats why i believe we were created from God.

    • Big Nothing! says:

      02:42pm | 02/01/11

      I think my biggest fear is an eternal afterlife. The thought that I could be floating around for ever and ever sounds like a nightmare…under any circumstances! I definitely prefer the idea (and find it comforting) that things have a start, middle and end.

      Based on all my readings, I’m not aware of anything in the universe that is eternal…including the universe! Why humans would fall into some special category I have no idea, but then again, I think religion teaches the concept that we are special compared to other creatures. I disagree!  I could be wrong but you’ll need to prove that my beliefs are erroneous before I’m willing to change my mind.

      My assumptions:

      Athiest = Spends most of the time thinking about living!
      Religious = Spends far too much time worrying dying!

    • Paul says:

      01:25pm | 02/01/11

      ••Firstly, what evidence do you have that there is a ‘better place’?••
      Here’s my “personal evidence” from lived experience, which is a very long story made rather short. In 2005, two and a half years after a long, debilitating illness (and after contemplating ways to end my suffering) brought me to my last resort – getting on my knees and asking God from my heart that if he was really real, to reveal his presence to me and to heal me.

      Within a very short time I was answered by God in a number of ways. I know most people won’t believe this but it happened to me: God actually spoke to me, to my spirit (briefly, but very clearly), while I lay in bed on a Saturday afternoon early in 2006, so I followed his directive. About a month later the Holy Spirit made HIs presence known to me, by communicating with me in a way that I can only describe as ‘spirit to spirit’ and directed me through a number of visions and dreams to make some big changes in my life.

      A couple of months later in April ‘06 I had a life-changing encounter with the spirit of Jesus Christ. I was in his presence for about 3 or 4 seconds. That was the most incredible thing that has ever happened to me (and I’m a person who has done a lot of exciting things in life, I’ve travelled the world, surfed massive waves in Hawaii and raced motorcycles… just for starters).

      I know most people won’t believe what I have written, but it happened to me and I am completely healed from the illness. So to answer your question, I know that I KNOW that Jesus Christ is real (BTW he is nothing like the insipid stereotype that is promulgated through popular culture), therefore YES there is a better place. I also want to say I am not the kind of Christian who forces my beliefs on others, or stands in judgement, I’m just relating my lived experience.

      ••And secondly, what confidence do you have that you will be going there?••
      I have a good degree of confidence, but it’s up to God after we have all breathed our last.

    • True Believer says:

      04:19pm | 04/01/11

      Paul:

      Oh I believe you no problems - this is what I try to tell these folk who are determined to tell God either He does not exist or what He should be doing in their opinion.  Jesus lives and the Holy Spirit speaks to us even today.

      Thank you for that. Keep telling it, many will have their hearts open to receive your lovely testimony.  Do not be put off by the mockers. They are being misled, but do not realise it yet.

    • James1 says:

      10:25am | 04/01/11

      Is it true that Jesus was black?

    • Adam says:

      10:37am | 02/01/11

      I always wonder about people who can look at the infinite beauty of our universe, all the diverse animals that have evolved…our own wonderful evolution….all that our society has created, all the art, the technology, from the mona lisa to the eiffel tower to the iphone….who look at all of that and say “is ‘this’ all there is?”......How much more do you want!!!  Is this infinitely wonderful world and the universe it travels within so goddamn boring for you that you have to invent fairies and tales to get through life?

    • True Believer says:

      04:12pm | 04/01/11

      Adam:

      Ah but now we “see through a glass darkly” when we see Him face to face the wondrous beauty we enjoy in this life will pale into insignificance in what we will see then. That is His promise.

    • George says:

      09:23am | 02/01/11

      Righto - having waded my way through the above comments ... oh and happily read the article ... I now have two opinions ...
      1) nicely written article, thankyou for providing a basis for a wide ranging and interesting (though at times bombastic) discussion.
      2) does all this fighting mean I have to sit in a corner and cower because someone dares to suggest my understanding and beliefs are bs or incorrect? I suspect this is how the cruades started…. there is what sounds like a world weariness in some replies and a zealous passion in others… I remember my weary school principal (yes I made him weary) once writing on my school report “more zest and zeal needed”... I read into that now that my focus, passion and drive needs to be directed at the good things… and that relates here into the need for a didactic discussion… or as my Dad once said “it takes all sorts to make a world”
      oh and a further opinion….
      3)  “prepare ye the holy hand grenade”... er um oh er hang on that was the Gospel according to Monty

    • Beyond religion says:

      08:11am | 02/01/11

      I’m tired of reading articles by self-proclaimed Christians who believe there are only two options when we die. To my mind, the notion that we either go to ‘heaven’ if we’ve supposedly developed a relationship with Jesus, or ‘hell’ if we haven’t, is wildly simplistic.

      I think some of the Eastern religions/philosophies are closer to the mark. Just as nature goes through endless cycles - ‘birth’ in spring and ‘death’ in winter, or the Earth revolving around the Sun - I think that humans, too, have some kind of eternal soul or spirit that returns in a different body to have another crack at this weird, wonderful and frustratingly complex existence called humanity. Matter may break down, but energy doesn’t. It has to go somewhere, so why not be ‘recycled’ back here on Earth?

      If there is some kind of ‘God’, surely such a majestic being wouldn’t be so inefficient as to send each human to one of only two places after they die, and just have them hang around in perpetuity? What would be the point? Nah, I reckon ‘God’ is much smarter and more efficient than that.

    • NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

      06:34am | 02/01/11

      Hi there,

      We all like to believe that there is such a thing as “after life” and sooner or later we will be rewarded for all our good deeds on this earth.  It sounds good to all believers, no matter how hard this life seems to be and testing at time that we will get our turn in our next life.  To me this message is all about keeping the faith and having the will to go with our lives, no matter how impossible things may seem in our daily lives.

      Unfortunately, no one from “the other side ever comes back” to tell us about their experiences.  Until then, we will just keep the faith and get on with our daily struggles. Best regards to your editors.

    • Cat says:

      01:47am | 02/01/11

      DrJane - well, for me, I define them. I observe, I think, I consider what I have been told is good and what I have been told is bad and who has done the telling and why. I look at individual situations and weigh up the information and I have the society I live in which is made up of many other views and oppinions which I can bounce ideas off. I have a world I can observe and learn about - I can see how what is moral and good changes between individuals and communities and countries ect. and I can learn about why somebody thinks the way they do. 
      Personally I find it woefully lacking to have the stated reason be “because god/goddess/deity/whatever said so”, and the more you dig the more it tends to become aparent that there is a basic survival benefit at work, just with varied risk assesment and perception colouring the outcome.

      The quote may be “cleanliness is next to godliness” but this most certainly was not the case for much of history. We wash our hands because we discovered not doing so can make us sick - it is good to wash your hands because it is good FOR you…..not because it has anything to with god.

      It is a chicken and egg argument also - did a particular religion define a particular moral standpoint or did a particular moral standpoint define a religious teaching? It is easily observable that religious teachings have changed and are changed over time - that tends to suggest religious does not define morals to a greater degree than the individual and increased knowledge.

      When you have a faith and a set of beliefs which is closely linked to the morals and values you hold it can be difficult to imagine that others can form these things without a religious basis or that morals and values can be explained and arrived at minus any mention of a deity - but truly it isn’t hard.

      Just look at the preachings of organised religion around the world and throughout history - there is an awful lot of dubious definitions or morality and being good to be found, and there is an awful lot of observable variation - even inside the same religion! We discuss traditional and progressive members of the same religious. communities with ease - clearly having the same religion does not result in having the same set of morals - this is why I am always surprised that people don’t seem to get that I don’t need a religion to make these sort of definitions for me or that religion is not at the core of defining morals and what is good.

      .

    • Austral says:

      10:22pm | 01/01/11

      Steve,

      I am a Christian too from Hillsong and I congratulate ou on showing courage to admit publicly to your faith. We need more such courageous Christians like you. And do not lose heart because some atheists tell you God does not exist. Those who have experienced Him personally, who have received His revelation, and wisdom and power that changes us, will not be moved by “Fool said in his heart: there is no God”.

    • DrJane says:

      10:25pm | 31/12/10

      Interesting posts. But who and what defines morality and being good?

      Weren’t these the preachings of the organized religions that believe in a higher being - such as GOD?

      good = means GOD or at least relates to it ( neuter gender).

    • Luke says:

      07:42pm | 31/12/10

      Spirit leaves the body, and gets reborn…
      So all the shit we do to this planet, (pollution ect) is just waiting next lifetime for us to sort out!

    • True Believer says:

      03:57pm | 04/01/11

      Stu:

      Please see my response to your previous question in answer to your question.

      My response is why is it that believers are required to “show evidence” whilst those who do not believe ask the question from a position of nil evidence for their own stance.

    • Stu says:

      12:28pm | 04/01/11

      @ True Believer:

      I did and do read posts I reply to very carefully. However here and in the thread above you refuse to answer a simple question: why does Luke’s belief require proof while your belief does not?

    • True Believer says:

      11:57am | 04/01/11

      Stu:

      “BTW - if you cannot conceive that god was “was, is and forever will be” how can you post the words in this blog?”

      If you read me more carefully you would see I said with ‘the natural human mind’ - I can know it is true now because I am alive to Him spiritually - that is what Jesus meant when He said “I tell you the truth, you must be born again…............”  I am now alive to the Holy Spirit who reveals these things to those willing to listen. Once I was not and like you I could not comprehend,  but now I am no longer blind to these truths. Only by His Grace I hasten to add. Nothing of me, all of Him.

    • Stu says:

      09:40am | 04/01/11

      @ True Believer:

      No proof from Luke is required according to your standards (from your post above: “I do not have to “prove” my God - He was, is and forever will be. It is impossible to conceive of this with the natural human mind”).

      BTW - if you cannot conceive that god was “was, is and forever will be” how can you post the words in this blog?

    • True Believer says:

      08:46am | 01/01/11

      That is the old myth of reincarnation. There is zero proof for it.

    • Matt says:

      05:00pm | 31/12/10

      Steve,

      You sign off asking people to look for evidence to back up their beleifs regarding the existence/non existence of an afterlife. I hope you are also looking for that same evidence, as merely stating or asserting something as true as you beleive it, does not count as evidence.

    • Rob Wearne says:

      02:27pm | 31/12/10

      When my grandmother was near death I entered her room and touched her forehead and some form of energy entered me and left me through my eyes in a split second. When we went back into her room some minutes later she had passed. Although I am nominally Christian I had never been particularly religious and still have my issues with large parts of organised religion. Nevertheless I have always been of the view that there must be some higher power and possibly an afterlife/energy as after all what created existence…? In this vein it is interesting to read the theories of cosmologists and particle physicists as well as some of their personal views on the religious significance of their studies and in many cases they are quite religious. I have no beef with atheists per se but as a broadly paleo-conservative/libertarian/Austrian person it amuses me to see that many of those that are atheists also have a socialist/humanist viewpoint and have such a disdain for religious beliefs when they place almost divine providence in the authority and wisdom of government decision making notwithstanding the failed economic and social costs in nearly every case of govt. intervention. To them the solution is always more government intervention and not letting self organising institutions such as religious charities provide the solution. Do I know what happens after death..No I don’t but I think that some part of our energy moves on to another dimension…maybe similar to some of the theories physicists speculate about the birth and death and creation of the universe and how there may-be many more dimensions. Gee fancy that the theories of our modern day physicists in many ways sound like some of the tenants of the worlds religions… rebirth and hidden dimensions.

    • Emma says:

      09:09am | 31/12/10

      Well said Cat.  Like you I will live my life the best I can, trying to be a good person and doing no harm to others. What happens will happen without any input from me, death like birth can not be controlled by the individual coming into being or leaving this world.
      Like you I tend to lean towards the “nothing else after death” theory, who knows I may be in for a surprise.  I don’t denigrate other peoples faiths or beliefs but I don’t want their opinions forced on me either. I do lean towards the theories of evolution more than creationism and left my kids with the freedom to do the research and make up their own minds, I bought them up to be good people and good citizens which they both are.
      I know I will be cremated and my ashes scattered, what happens after that….who knows and I don’t actually care.  I will live my life the best way I can without the thought of a “reward” or “punishment” at the end.

    • Cat says:

      11:19pm | 30/12/10

      I don’t know what happens after we die - I know that various religions and cultural groups have their own ideas and beliefs, I know these vary greatly, but I also know none of them have any definitive proof - and what people choose to believe religion wise is often a matter of where they are born and how they are raised and how certain beliefs bring comfort or community- rather than any superiority of one idea over another.
      I don’t need any religion to be a good person, I am secure in the morals I hold and the actions I take, I am a good person, not a perfect one, but a good one. I don’t think too much about what happens after we are gone, I lean in favour of “probably nothing” but really, I don’t know and given nobody else does either I don’t see why it should trouble me. The odds of me picking the “right” religion out of the HUNDREDS out there are fairly small so I’m not going to live my life as if I have certainty where there can be none because that just seems…silly I guess. In fact this is a big part of why I am not religious - I just can’t imagine thinking to myself “out of all the people in the world with true faith in their religion of choice *I* have picked the true religion and *I* have the answers” when there is NOTHING to support one group being more accurate than another. This world is amazing and I don’t feel the need to look beyond it to find wonder or meaning, I don’t think the fact that we don’t have answers yet for why some things happen means the answer must be magic, history shows us again and again that as we observe and learn we find explainations that are wonderous, but not at all magical and so again - I feel no push to look beyond our world for answers. Whatever happens when I die I’ll be content knowing I’ve lived trying to do the right thing as I saw it and that I’ve done so because it is important to me intrinsicly - not because of a potential afterlife or next life bogeyman.

    • Jeff Wilson says:

      05:43pm | 30/12/10

      Nothing. Your brain is deprived of oxygen, your brain cells begin to die. The second the very last one stops, so do you. That’s it. Anyone who believes otherwise is an immature fool, desperately clinging to the myth of some form of immortal afterlife to subjugate their terror at reality. Religion, theism, in fact all superstition, can be traced to the death anxiety of the human brain. The stronger the fear, the stronger the faith.

    • chris says:

      04:10pm | 30/12/10

      To prove an existance of an after life or GOD is tricky to say the least because it can’t be proven by science yet or may never ever be proven.
      However, to prove there isn’t a GOD is just as difficult as Andrew commented ” As an engineer/designer/project manager, I see very little in the built environment that does not reflect considerable design, intent, planning and process. Not much we applaud occurs by chance. And then I look at the natural world, at the human body, at life itself and speculate that what we do and create pales in comparison, both in complexity and beauty to it”
      Also Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose proved in the 1960s, is that time itself cannot extend back indefinitely, which I draw the conclusion that there was a higher being involved with its creation.
      I have also witnessed things that I have not been able to explain by science; for instance when the deaf hear, when the blind see and the lame walk after being prayed over during a miracle rally. This also raised the question of why some people were healed and others weren’t.
      It is hard for me not to believe in God or an afterlife after those experiences. However, those are my experiences and If what I have said has intrigued you, I urge you to find out more about it and the validity of what I claim is still happening today.
      As for heaven and hell and who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, to be honest I am not sure because I am not God. Also I am not sure how heaven will be like because we are only given snipits of how it will be like in the Bible.
      I believe that Jesus is God and He cares for us. Why GOD would care for us is beyond reason as well. All I know is that I am greatful to have Him in my life.

    • Aidan says:

      01:56pm | 30/12/10

      As a great man once said;

      “I’ll probably come back as a lentil.”

    • Mark says:

      01:32pm | 30/12/10

      People are entitled to believe whatever they want…......in fact nobody can stop them.

      However, to develop or embrace a mental construct of life after we die and expect others to accept it’s existence requires proof…......there is none. Faith alone is not enough.

      Atheists (or, as in my case, Anti-theists) do not have to prove the non-existence of a God(s)......it’s for those that believe in God(s) to demonstrate that he/ she/ it/ they exist if they wish to convert others to their belief.

      Otherwise, just get on with your lives….......believe what you want….....good luck.

    • Megs says:

      01:12pm | 30/12/10

      I don’t define myself as anything other than a human; my beliefs are mine and are mostly learnt from personal experience.

      The biggest life event to shake me was the suicidal death of my brother. It was the first time I experienced seeing a real deceased person. At the viewing I saw the body of my brother, but without a doubt he wasn’t there. I had no idea how much that we are as a person is made up from our personality or soul if you like. Without it, our body is the flesh and bones we get about in. Hollywood will never capture this, it has to be experienced.

      The second time I was with a deceased person was my dear grandmother, about 20 mins after she had passed. I sat with her for a few hours, whilst my parents dealt with personal arrangements. It is a most precious memory for me, to be the one who looked after her body as it lay there empty of her being, slowly seeing the changes that death brings.

      Neither of these experiences needed a God or an afterlife. For me the only thing I cared about was they were no longer suffering in the life that we could measure, the one that we were together in. If anything, it showed me that the life we have now deserves our very best, to be strong and as healthy (all relative) as you can. After that, I don’t mind what happens, be it as burnt particles in the wind or a spiritual place we don’t know anything about.
      Having life is enough for me.

    • Mark says:

      01:35pm | 30/12/10

      Excellent post Megs…......agree with every word…..thank you smile

    • Jesus girl says:

      12:20pm | 30/12/10

      Great article Steve.

      “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”  -1 Corinthians 2:14

      Many on here have mocked the gospel or been quite adamant that it is not true, yet I have seen no real evidence that you have researched Christianity and made an informed decision to choose against it, only emotional ones.  So - serious questions - why is it so important to you that Christianity not be true?  What do you hold so dear in your lives that you don’t want Christianity to be true?

    • grumpy old man says:

      02:28pm | 31/12/10

      Its not important that Christianity not be true. Equally, the same must be said for any other religion, to say anything else would rationally diminish them all.
      I have not researched Christianity, nor any other religion. I don’t feel a need to do so. If you have not researched every other religion as much as you have Christianity, then you cannot say that Christianity is the one true faith, for the very reasons you have outlined.
      Quoting from the bible has no merit, unless you are also prepared to hold true to everything in the bible..you don’t get to be selective!, which means that you have to hold true to some pretty terrible things ( yes, I have read the Bible, and the Koran, the Torah, and several other religious texts)
      Why can you not accept that everyone in the world does not share your faith? They have the same right that you have to practice, or not practice, any faith that does not break the laws of the land they are living in. No one has a right to belittle anyone else’s faith or lack of, what everyone has a responsibility to do is to accept that everyone has a right to choose their own path.

    • petery says:

      12:17pm | 30/12/10

      I don’t want to get too philosophical or serious, I will leave that to those who somehow manage to refer to cricket under this heading.
      If there is heaven, i would love to be there when those dogmatic humorless athiests arrive.The look on their faces would be priceless. Unfortunately we can’t reverse the situation and have believers suffer the same thing,because athiests assert there is nothing,so nothing to see.

      It would also be amusing to see the reaction of members of rival religious sects when they see each other in heaven The   OMG ‘what are you doing here?‘look of amazement.  Or the amazement of the smug believers in the rapture when they see that others might have actually made it too. I hope you get to choose your neighbours in Heaven. Imagine being next door to Fred Nile,or any state politician for that matter.

      Going to hell might be similar. There would be quite a number of believers over the centuries whose cruelties to their fellow human beings,not to mention their arrogant stupidity would deservedly put them there. The look of disbelief on their faces would be priceless too.  It would be great to see the look on the faces of suicide bombers when they see the virgins their mis reading of the Koran has lead them to believe are waiting there,  are actually hairy males like themselves.

      I sometimes waver between wanting to go to Heaven or Hell. Do they have a similar mix of people?  I sometimes think those in Hell might be more fun to spend eternity with.

    • Richard says:

      11:04am | 30/12/10

      Once in a blue moon I wonder whether I am in fact significantly smarter than the vast majorty of Australians.

      Then I read an article like this and the ensuing comments, and all doubts are removed.  I am DEFINITELY smarter than the vast majority of Australians.

      You guys make me laugh.  God - who needs him?  I can’t even understand it.  Isn’t this life enough?  Who cares what happens in the next life - we can’t even get this one right.  Talk about escapism.

      I note with interest that the author of this piece states that he loves Jesus more than his wife.  How sad.  An adult in a developed society who loves a make-believe friend more than his wife.  If you thought about that rationally, two things would happen - the guy would be locked in a puzzle factory and his wife would leave him for someone with more appropriate priorities.

    • Jess says:

      07:34pm | 01/01/11

      How do you know he’s make believe?

    • Paul Stephenson says:

      11:01am | 30/12/10

      Good on you brother, your explanation was spot on,  I wish more Christians would be bold to share their faith and not be afraid of the athiests and agnostics of this world. the Word of God is truly our basis for belief, just like the evolutioists has his belief in the writtings of Darwin. our confidence is in a Christ who came to give the gift of eternal life, but like Herod the world wans to destroy the Christ of Christmas, because if they believe that Christ was born then they have to believe that He died and that HE died because of the wickedness of man, He bore the sin of man so man can live forever more.

    • True Believer says:

      04:04pm | 04/01/11

      Tedd:

      By what do we know of this monk’s findings - could it be writings that have been handed down.

      Amazing how easy it seems to believe what a mere man says but to mock that which God said to his writers.

    • Tedd says:

      04:46pm | 30/12/10

      The work of Augustinian Austrian monk Gregor Mendel in establishing the Laws of Inheritance were instrumental in developing the Modern Evolutionary Synthesis in the 1940s that first put all the work of these independent researchers together.

      Worth an internet search

    • Paul says:

      02:05pm | 30/12/10

      “the Word of God is truly our basis for belief, just like the evolutioists has his belief in the writtings of Darwin.”

      That is either ignorant or wilfully misleading.

      Acceptance of evolution as a description of reality isn’t based on a mere belief in the word of Darwin but on verifiable evidence that supports and builds upon his work.

      For example Darwin’s theory included what we now call Lamarckian inheritance (in short that features developed during a life time could be passed on). Modern evolutionary theory does not. Darwin plainly states that “The laws governing inheritance are quite unknown”.

      It wasn’t until almost 100 years after Darwin published “On the Origin of Species” the DNA was discovered and our knowledge and understanding is still being added to every day.

      Darwin’s work was brilliant and the basis for a lot more work but it is in no sense treated as gospel.

      For what it’s worth “Word of God is truly our basis for belief” makes no sense. The “Word of God” cannot be the basis for your belief because you need to believe already to count the Bible as being the Word of God.

      If I came to you and said “I am God” and claimed my own word as evidence you would rightly be skeptical to the point of incredulity absent other evidence. Why you don’t hold the Bible to a similar standard of evidence is a question only you can answer.

    • Barney says:

      10:54am | 30/12/10

      I don’t have time to worry about the afterlife,am having too much fun in this one

    • stephen says:

      10:45am | 30/12/10

      I do know one thing for certain, how can you have a rational discussion with an irrational mind. Logic plays no part in faith and for all the throw backs on science, science requires observations with predictable outcomes, faith does not.
      How you think you mobile phone works or your tv or your computer? You think God made this stuff. If science was wrong our techno world would still be in the stone ages.
      If God was almighty why doesnt he get of his ass and kick some ass on bad ass’s.
      Sigh, for God sake just enjoy your life its only short and when you die and enter the void in the ether I won’t be able to say ’ I told you so’

    • Jess says:

      07:37pm | 01/01/11

      Read CS Lewis for a good example of how logic brings one to faith. He found the logic unavoidable.

    • stephen says:

      07:56pm | 30/12/10

      Find a new name sport.
      I’m in enough trouble as it is.

    • Geoff says:

      10:43am | 30/12/10

      I’m a Christian…
      I believe in Jesus Christ.
      I believe in God.
      I am not a Catholic, their beliefs are different to mine.  I am not a Muslim nor a Hindu.  I am not Agnostic nor am I an Atheist.
      I will not try to force my beliefs on you, please do not ridicule mine or try to force yours upon me.
      I wish you all well… now… and in the hereafter.

    • Wayne Kerr says:

      09:55am | 31/12/10

      I couldn’t resist,...
      Talking of straw men, I never said all Christians were Catholic either so please return the favour of addressing what I actually say or write.

      All the best

    • Geoff says:

      09:33pm | 30/12/10

      wayne.
      I never said Catholics were not Christian.
      just that I wasn’t Catholic
      Please try and address what I actually said from now on, not create pointless strawmen
      Like I said, I don’t care what you choose to believe or not.
      I just wish you well.

    • Wayne Kerr says:

      06:20pm | 30/12/10

      Geoff me old mate, I agree all Christians are not Catholic however I’d respectfully argue that all Catholics are Christians based on my reasoning in the previous post (and being rasied in the Catholic faith albeit it now I class myself as a non believer) . I’ve also attended Anglican services, Baptist, Uniting church, non-denominational etc. What was that U2 song?  They all teach the same basic message, same as the mics .  BTW not trying to rain on your parade or your beliefs just putting my opinion out there based in my experience.

    • Geoff says:

      02:59pm | 30/12/10

      Funny isn’t it, you try to be even handed and all you get is…...

      Wayne. 
      Hate to tell you this buddy but not all Christians are Catholics, even though some people believe they are.  Eg; Not all Christians believe in the Trilogy…  as Muslims for example certainly do not.  Yes I know they are not Christian.
      Not all Christians believe in the use of Confession.  Papal infallibility.  Nor do they believe in praying to Saints or through idols.  Hope that is enough info for you. Organised religion and ritualisation is different to personal religion.

      Tedd.
      I believe in the One God Tedd, I thought I made that clear.  If I believed in all Gods I would have used the plural form of the word Tedd.

    • Wayne Kerr says:

      12:21pm | 30/12/10

      Child Of God

      Catholics believe and worship Jesus Christ. At their Masses they have readings from the Gospels and the Bible.  They re-enact the last supper through Communion.  Don’t get me wrong, I’m not defending the Catholic Church for all the wrongs it has committed.  I’m simply saying that the Catholic faith is a Christian faith.  To say otherwise is misinformation.  Perhaps I should have originally written that Catholicism was the first “organised” Christian religion

    • Child of God says:

      11:48am | 30/12/10

      Sorry Wayne.  To be a Catholic is not necessarily to be a Christian.  The Catholic church was founded sometime in the 3rd or 4th century by a Roman emperor who wanted a state religion to unite the empire.  Up until this time the true Christians who were preaching the message of Jesus were getting well and truly persecuted.  He mixed in Christian teaching with pagan practices and came up with a church which is nothing like the church of Jesus Christ.  Then, over the years it also incorporated doctrines of men which overrode the Bible, which should have been the ultimate authority for them.  Many of the attrocities that have been committed over the centuries have come about because the Catholic church saw herself as the ultimate judge of the people rather than leaving that up to God.  And, of course, they didn’t allow the general population the opportunity to read because, by doing so, they would have been able to read the Bible and find out that what the church was teaching them was wrong.  It is from this that there has been such heavy emphasis on ‘hell, fire and brimstone’ teaching and works-based salvation, which has given people the wrong impression of what true Christianity is all about.  Christian teaching does involve hell, but it is a gospel of good news, that Jesus Christ came so that if we repent and believe in Him we are saved from that eternity in hell.  Catholic teaching, for the most part, involves rituals and doctrines that actually oppose the message of the Bible.

    • Tedd says:

      11:12am | 30/12/10

      You believe in all Gods ever espoused, Geoff, or you just don’t you believe in the non-Christian ones?

    • Wayne Kerr says:

      11:06am | 30/12/10

      Hate to break it to you Geoff but Catholics ARE Christians in fact they were probably the very first Christian faith.

    • Alexander says:

      10:33am | 30/12/10

      Are the minds of some people so small that they are unable to see.
      Do you not dream?, do you not allow yourselves to see the actual wonder of our Cosmos.
      There is so much more human beings are capable of if only more people looked up at night.
      Every day we find a new planet around a distant Sun, Every day we get closer to understanding why the universe works the way it does.
      Some of us think bigger than gods, in fact, every day we find there is less need for a god, any god.
      Some of us think of Multi-verses, extra dimensions, time travel, FTL.
      No gods needed thanks, they are very small fish in a very, very Bid pond.
      I already have so many provable, factual, incredible things to think about without worrying about other peoples imaginary friends.
      As for Dying, we are progressing so fast that it may have No meaning in our near future.
      What is death when you can transfer your conciousness to a Positonic type
      NET in a Cyborg body. We could Live forever.

      If you want to SEE God, Look in the Mirror.

    • Judy says:

      09:38am | 30/12/10

      Such a long discussion.  Don’t know quite where to jump in.

      My mother and teenage son are dead.  Both came to visit me.  I know there is something beyond.  My mother to warn me of my son’s impending death and my son to hug me.

      What a lucky girl I am.

    • Christopher L W says:

      09:17am | 30/12/10

      Proof of no afterlife? The fact that there isn’t even an inkling of it’s existance or any kind of cross communication from said afterlife should say enough at least for now.

      If such a thing could exist, science will eventually weed it out.

      It’s not very re-assuring but I assume when I die my heart stops beating, my brain ceases to function and in some form or another what’s left of me returns to where it started, in the earth.

      If we had souls that presumably all living things had, or at least humans, that could create a big problem with our current understanding of things, energy has a limit, if everything has a soul, over enough time, no energy left…... not feasible by any stretch of the imagination.

      On the other hand, my body decaying and being eaten up equals a return of energy (or rather a conversion), so it’s being “released” and not held up in some fancy afterlife.

    • True Believer says:

      11:50am | 04/01/11

      Tedd:

      But I am so glad it is not fiction. You have zero proof or authority to back a claim that it is.  You are in for one big surprise. :0)

    • Tedd says:

      12:49pm | 01/01/11

      RobeE,

      the most likely explanation is the story is just that - it is fiction.

    • Rob E says:

      08:14am | 01/01/11

      Of course I’d agree with you except that there’s one claim - really the central claim of Christianity - that Jesus rose from the dead.

      It may not be true, but it seems to me the most likely explanation for ‘the empty tomb’ of this most remarkable character of history.

      And if indeed he did rise from the dead, then I’d confidently say he’s an authority on ‘what comes next’ (in fact it may even suggest that he’s more than just an authority!).

    • ASD says:

      08:46am | 30/12/10

      I am surprised at how many jump at the chance of being a ‘christian’ and no one here said I am a ‘human’. We are on earth to learn a lesson that we did not in the past lives, and when we learn that one, we leave the planet. If there are other lessons we need to learn to eveolve from this ‘being’ of human to a more advanced soul, we come back, else we become a part of this universe guiding the other souls. Aren’t we all so eager to label people and groups. When did we forget that we are humans first??
      Belief in ‘God’ is a personal matter. It is this public ‘accpetance’ or ‘non-acceptance’ of ‘my’ God or ‘your’ God is what has caused so many heartaches and pains, And we still cannot seem to break ourselves away from it all.
      Oh well, ‘such is life’ they say. cheers

    • Stu says:

      01:20pm | 07/01/11

      @ True Believer:

      No. Where has anyone in the two threads asked you for proof for ANYTHING? This is a moot point. The thing I am failing to demonstrate to you (readers could I be clearer?) is that you responded to 2 posts asserting that the beliefs of 2 other people were “unproven” and “a myth”. You claim that your beliefs true, not mythical and require no proof. Given this my only option is the repeat the question over and over again. (Don’t worry - I don’t have that kind of patience!).

    • True Believer says:

      12:00pm | 07/01/11

      @stu:

      My post did not contain “insults” I was making comments based on my observation of your posts and your seeming inability or unwillingness to try to understand my reasoning.

      You said in one of your previous posts that (my paraphrasing) I should not ask luke for proof of his beliefs whilst not providing proof of my own.
      The inference being that I should do the latter before daring to request an unbeliever to provide proof of their statements for Christianity.

      You appear to be promoting a double standard - the onus is not on me to “prove” my God, I have explained as simply as I can for you the foolishness of such a request. I have every right to ask an atheist for the evidence of their beliefs, just as they presume to do the same to me.

      As I said if you are not prepared to accept that maybe, just maybe, atheists have no proveable case then of course the discussion can go no further.

    • Stu says:

      10:42am | 07/01/11

      @ True Believer:

      Wow. I’ll ignore the unnecessary insults which are obviously designed to obfuscate, but will make the following points. 1. You STILL haven’t answered my question. 2. Neither ASD, Luke nor myself have asked you to provide evidence for Jesus, Christianity or any of your beliefs in the two discussion threads I have contributed to. 3. I agree that your unwillingness or inability to answer my question will make any further contributions to these threads a waste of both our time.

    • True Believer says:

      09:38am | 05/01/11

      Stu:

      I have no regard for cynicism so I will endeavour to believe you are not being deliberately “thick”, but take it you have difficulty understanding some deeper things.

      Now I will say this as much as simply as I can.

      Before I go any further it is interesting that neither ASD nor Luke have the courage of their convictions apparently as neither saw fit to reply to my post.

      Apart from creation - which God Himself said should show the unbeliever He exists - I have no empirical proof of the Christian God’s existence. He is above and beyond the comprehension of the natural human mind. 

      That is why He sent His Son Jesus in human form to make the new agreement between God and man i.e. the New Testament.  Having sent prophets before hand (see the Old Testament - Psalms, Isiaih, Micah,  etc) to tell of Jesus coming many hundreds of years before HIs birth. These down to the details that Jesus would be born of a virgin, that his birthplace would be Bethlehem, the fact He would be rejected by men, the form of His wounds and manner of death on the Cross of Calvary.

      With me so far?

      Now those who subscribe to atheism, reincarnation, buddhism, hinduism, islam, taoism, animism, pantheism, jehovahs witnesses, mormons, reincarnation, karma, satanism etc etc cannot empirically prove what they hold to be true can be founded in any empirical evidence. 

      (Although goodness knows there is enough evidence of satan’s existence if one looks around the world at war, famine, floods, diseases and any other tragedy - but of course it is simpler for the unbeliever in the Christian God to blame Him because they allow themselves to be conned as I once did.)

      Now my point is, (follow closely), it is foolish and contradictory for the unbeliever, whatever group he/she identifies with, to demand of the Christian proof for the Christian God when they themselves are able to produce zero proof of their deities, beliefs, hankerings or whatever.

      So when an unbeliever in the Christian God demands proof of my God, I am equally having to sadly take this foolish position of asking for the proof of that in which they believe.  Which of course they run a mile from. Hence you are continuing this discussion whilst those who prompted it have gone to ground.

      I do hope that helps, if it doesn’t then there is no point in us continuing this discussion. Thank you for your question. I wish you well.

    • Stu says:

      08:07am | 05/01/11

      @ True Believer:

      My question(s) had nothing to do with atheism - it was about your implicit (now explicit) demand for proof for one person’s (say ASD or Luke) belief system and not applying the same standard to your own beliefs. I agree that this is a fair question. Care to actually answer it? How can you criticise any atheist for demanding proof that you then demand from another?

    • True Believer says:

      03:47pm | 04/01/11

      Stu:

      A fair question I admit. It was not my intention to apply a double standard, but to put back to atheists this monotonous plea for Christians to bring forth proof, whilst hiding behind their own inability to prove their situation in empirical terms.  If one denies creation and all its marvels and puts it down to an accident there is no empirical proof which can be put under the microscope for God or for no God.

      It is a ridiculous situation to argue from on either side. My purpose was to make a request of the unbeliever which they constantly make of believers. To illustrate the futility of the atheist position in this demand.

      When one knows who they are in God through Jesus Christ there is no longer any doubt.  This is way above human knowledge amazing as that can be at times - it is not all there is to the picture of humanity.  I think the problem so many have, I certainly did as an atheist was assuming God had to prove Himself to me. Now I know Him I realise how incredibly arrogant and presumptuous that is. He is the Potter we are the clay.  He the Maker, we the made. Together with Him we can experience the wonder of who He is and then who we are in Him. 

      However, it is sad that so many stop just at human understanding relying on what can never explain Him scientifically, thank God.

      Thank you for your questions I am not sure that will make it clearer for you. I hope it does.

    • Stu says:

      12:21pm | 04/01/11

      @ True Believer:

      You haven’t answered my question either here or in the other thread below. Again, why do you require proof (your words, not mine) from ASD and others about their beliefs which you don’t apply to yourself? Why does the double standard you refer to, not apply to you?

    • True Believer says:

      11:43am | 04/01/11

      Stu:

      You question on God is unanswerable in human terms - let Him open your spiritual eyes then you will not need puny little human answers. I cannot prove Him, nor would I want to - if I could prove God, He would not be God.

      One needs to be willing to think outside the parameters of the rational mind to understand the Greater Picture and that takes a degree of humility to accept that mankind does not have all the answers. There is more I promise you…...................but it will not be found in science books or the wisdom of the world. Happy New Year.

    • Stu says:

      09:15am | 04/01/11

      @ True Believer:

      When you say “so you believe in the unproven myth of re-incarnation” it implies that proof is required. Why then is ASD required to prove reincarnation and why should anyone accept your assertion that “my God - He was, is and forever will be.” This is where you will find your double standard. Assertions do not equal truth.

    • True Believer says:

      08:48am | 03/01/11

      Stu:

      It seems the quandary of some atheists to demand proof of the Christian’s belief, but are able to accept myths from other religions without proof.  A double standard surely?

      I do not have to “prove” my God - He was, is and forever will be. It is impossible to conceive of this with the natural human mind. He is above our little minds, it is a matter of having faith and then knowing as one becomes spiritually alive to His Truth. Jesus is alive today to those who seek to know and believe Him I can assure you. He is no myth.

      I hope one day you will find out the difference for yourself. I wish you well.

    • Stu says:

      09:10am | 31/12/10

      @ True Believer:

      “So you believe in the unproven myth of re-incarnation.”

      I’d be interested to know how you elevate one unproven myth (say Christianity) over another? Do you believe in the second coming of Jesus, or to put it another way, will God re-cycle (re-incarnate) Jesus at some point according to your belief system?

    • True Believer says:

      11:30am | 30/12/10

      @ASD

      So you believe in the unproven myth of re-incarnation. Well my God is not into recycling souls so all the best with your belief.

      “Such is life” was not said by “they” it became notable because it is reputed to be what Ned Kelly said just before they hung him.

    • Ralph says:

      08:31am | 30/12/10

      Have u ever stopped to think for a minute why we have been put in this world?
      I hope I will be able to enlighten you as best I can. To understand our existence you have to understand our creation we were created form our father / mother Adam and eve. God created them from mud , clay ,water from heaven. They were told by God not to pick from a certain tree, but the devil convinced Adam to defy God command and therefore God sent Adam And eve down from heaven to earth along with the devil. If our father Adam obeyed God command we would of lived in heaven and had eternal life but our fathers punishment was to become mortal. The devil lives amongst us but in a spiritual way he will not go to heaven but hell,God created hell for the devil so there is a heaven and hell.
      Because of our fathers decision this is how our life became about therefore this life is a test for us from God. So eventually we will be tested for our actions after we die and when that day comes God have mercy.

    • believer says:

      04:29am | 30/12/10

      Im a Christian as well, and i beleive there is a heaven, that God made for us, because if your a atheist you dont beleive in a God and you dont know the difference between good or bad right? considering there is the 10 commandments from God which you wont beleive but that details of good and if you ignore it its bad. so what do Atheists live for then? and what are your morals? if you dont live by the 10 commandments and quite a few of them are in the laws of australia today,

      but ill leave you with this a friend who is a christian told me,
      for those who ignore Gods word and if God is real (which i beleive he is), then beleivers will live on,
      but if he isnt real then everyone will be the same. theres 2.1 billion christians in the world atm.

      and Jesus lived on this earth, we come from a man and a woman adam and eve thats enough for me to beleive God and Jesus is real and there for a heaven thanks and God Bless smile

    • Jason Todd says:

      09:32am | 01/01/11

      Believer, You are of course absolutely correct. The ten commandments are the basis for our laws. That is why we possess such agressive Graven Image legislation. Not to mention the stiff penalties in place for coveting your neighbours ox.

      /sarcasm

      Of your ten commandments, there are THREE that could reasonably be considered to be included in our laws. And those three are essentially, Don’t take anything that doesn’t belong to you, dont’ kill people, and don’t lie. These three commandments are not unique to your religion. Many people follow them intrinsically because they know that it is right without the input of a deity.

      If the only reason that you don’t go around killing people is because your god told you not to, then I am concerned for your sanity and suggest that you seek professional help.

      I am an atheist. I do good deeds and act in a moral fashion not because of the promise of an eternal reward, but because doing good deeds is its own reward. This life is the only one that I get and the best use of it is by living well up to my own high standards, rather than doing whatever I want, and then bleating to god for forgiveness on my death bed.

    • Paul says:

      11:05am | 31/12/10

      Believer, you seem to have missed my point that atheism has a positive association with moral behaviour, not a negative one.

      Your assertion that “if atheists dont live under any laws then they are free to do what they want right” is reasonable but only of value if you follow it up with an analysis with how atheists actually use that freedom in practice. You seem to be of the belief that an increase in bad behaviour is an inevitable outcome from that freedom but that is an unsupported assumption.

      If you find (and there’s some good evidence for it) that atheists commit less crime than religious people does that not make you question your assumption that believing in a God helps (let alone is necessary for) moral behaviour?

      We are intelligent beings, we can (individually and as a group) come to decisions on morality without the need of any dictat from above.

      “so if you take more responsibilities for yourselfs then what happens to teh people around you friends and family do you look after them too”

      Of course I do. Again, look at the article I linked to (skip to the graphs at the bottom if you like). The prevalence of Atheism in society trends positively with measurements of a healthy society.

      You must understand that your fear that atheism leads to immorality is simply a fear not borne out in reality.

      I am disappointed with your reference to “monkeys turning into humans”. Evolution suggests no such thing (rather that monkeys and us have a common ancestor) and it is either lazy or (in this day of readily available information) wilfully ignorant to frame it as you did.

      Evolution is not something that is “believed”, it is something that is considered as being a good description of reality based on the large amount of evidence we have.

      I may not be able to see the wind but I can see a flag flying or build a doppler radar to view it with better equipped eyes than mine.

    • Elphaba says:

      09:41am | 31/12/10

      @believer, whilst I am loathe to use Wikipedia as a source, your limited understanding of what atheism is means you might want to start out with something simple.

      “Sociologist Phil Zuckerman analyzed previous research on atheists and morality, and concluded that the more atheists and agnostics there are in a society, the more moral it is. Such findings included the following:[121][122]

      In the U.S. states with the highest percentages of atheists, the murder rate is lower than average. In the most religious U.S. states, the murder rate is higher than average.

      Only 0.2% of U.S. prisoners are atheists.

      Atheists are more tolerant towards women’s and homosexuals’ rights.

      Atheism and secularism correlate with high levels of education, and low levels of racial prejudice.

      Atheists physically abuse their children less often than others, and more often encourage them to think independently.

      In Sweden, the most secular country in the world according to Zuckerman, the charitable aid given is the highest as a proportion of GDP.

      Ethical systems that do not require that principles and rules be given by a deity include virtue ethics, social contract, Kantian ethics, utilitarianism, and Objectivism.

      Might I suggest you do some reading?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

    • believer says:

      04:31am | 31/12/10

      well stealing is actually against the law, and that is also a law of one of the commandments, so im trying to get the point across if atheists dont live under any laws then they are free to do what they want right? well unfortunately there is laws in teh country and are in the commandments as well so technically your following the laws smile

      so if you take more responsibilities for yourselfs then what happens to teh people around you friends and family do you look after them too?

      if i was athiest it seems like a pretty easy life no rules to follow live your own way i guess,

      but theres proof of Jesus and Gods creation so thats why i beleive, ie when a baby is born its created from a man and woman. just one example,
      or like you cant see the wind but you know its there, thats what i feel about god, but i know atheists dont think that.
      and with evolution i dont see any monkeys turning into humans but each to there own i guess and we will find out later in life what the final days wil bring.

    • Paul says:

      03:07pm | 30/12/10

      I am not sure what your story on “stealing” is supposed to convey.
      If it’s that I’m more likely to steal because I’m atheist and religious people are less likely to steal I have to ask if that is merely an assumption you are making or if you have any evidence for it as I
      think you’ll find that is a load of hooey.

      If you look at prison populations atheists tend to be under-represented compared to their proportion of the general populace. Similarly other measures of societal health (homicide rates etc) do not tend to reflect well on more religious societies.

      http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

      My theory would be that non-religious people simply tend to take more responsibility for themselves. We have no devil cruelly tempting us as an excuse. We have no easy absolution. We act more responsibly (and morally) for the simple fact that we alone are responsible for our actions and solving our problems.

      I do not at morally because I am fearful of an afterlife. I act morally because this short life is all I have and I want to spend the time well.

    • believer says:

      01:20pm | 30/12/10

      Atheist technically dont have anything to live for in the future after they die if they dont believe in God or heaven?

      because christians if they live godly lives, and follow the commandments which God set out, then we know what is good and bad, but say if you steal someones money it says do not steal, but what happens if your poor and you need it it still isnt right, yet if you dont believe that is bad because really your living for yourself as you dont have a beleife in God i guess you would want to take the money right?

      but yeah Jeus lived on this earth, we are born from man and woman and not from a monkey so thats why i have Faith in God and know Jesus existed, Faith is believing in something that you cant see pretty much, ie you cant see wind but you can feel it.

    • Richard says:

      10:50am | 30/12/10

      I am an atheist and I know the difference between right and wrong.  The measure of all moral judgements is one’s fellow humans.  Sure there are questions which are more difficult than others to decide but you can’t just opt out by relying on god. And if god would prefer you live by his/her rules rather than consider the best interests of your fellow human beings, then I am quite happy to stand in front of god when I die and tell him what an utter knob he is and how he does not deserve my respect.

    • Paul says:

      10:49am | 30/12/10

      “if your a atheist you dont beleive in a God and you dont know the difference between good or bad right?”

      What on earth could lead one to such a ridiculous conclusion?

    • joe m says:

      12:24am | 30/12/10

      Even if an afterlife exists who is to say its a Christian one? What happens if we land in the kingdom of the a sun god? A world of greek gods? Maybe Santa is the real god and we end up at the North Pole(heaven) or on a tropical beach (hell)! The article is about fear and taking out insurance! Insure with who? The Christian story is just one story. Is it the right one? What happens if you embrace Jesus only to find out he was a radical trouble making jew who wasn’t the son of God and you get sidelined for being stupid? Do you take a dual citizen approach and join a few different religions? Can you get a religion waver like a visa waver? Lots to think about!

    • joe m says:

      10:45am | 30/12/10

      You missed my point Norm and I dare say most others! Jesus without the believe is just another story, like so many other religious stories. If you have so many after life possibilities or belief systems then by average some of them are going to be wrong! Norm we get that you love Jesus and that’s great and you can spend the rest of your life blinded and closed to all other ideas and concepts. The fact is Norm Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in the same God, the God you believe in Norm the father of Jesus. Dogma and blind faith allows you to discount all other beliefs as wrong and that you only have the truth. One eyed christians must really miss the good old days of burnings, sackings and the bible in one hand and a gun in the other! Believe or perish!

    • Wayne Kerr says:

      09:19am | 30/12/10

      Norm

      I’m happy for you that you have such strong faith and conviction but you cannot convince me categorically that Jesus Christ even existed let alone him being the son of God.  You believe he did and that he is the way into heaven but as many others in this discussion have stated the bible itself is a collection of stories whose (sp/gramm?) historical accuracy is highly dubious.  Whereas I have no doubt that Captain Cook did exist as there is a plethora of evidence that he did.

    • Norm says:

      07:43am | 30/12/10

      Joe,
      Who is to say it is a Christian one? It is a Christian one because Jesus Christ says it is & he proved his credentials through his birth, life, death & resurrection & Jesus saying so is more than enough evidence for me. Joe, do you believe that Captain Cook discovered the east coast of Australia & landed at Kurnell? Well there are more witnesses to Jesus rising from the dead & promising Eternal Life with Him in Heaven for those who believe in him than there were witnesses to Captain Cook landing at Kurnell & we all believe Captain Cook landed at Kurnell.

    • Ben says:

      11:09pm | 29/12/10

      I am technically agnostic, but for all intents and purposes an atheist. I accept that I can not prove that God does not exist, as it is impossible to prove that anything does not exist.

      I believe in God to the same extent I believe in the Tooth Fairy. It is possible that both exist, I just think it is overwhelmingly unlikely.

      I label myself as a “Tooth Fairy Agnostic”.

    • Serge says:

      11:08pm | 29/12/10

      To all the atheists…...this earth “just happened”.....by a “big bang”....

      Thats the funniest thing i have ever heard. If u open your eyes and look, u KNOW there is a creator…....Its right in front of u, yet u choose to look away…....Its simple….....All atheists have not gone looking for Jesus, the son of God…..When u do, your heart will be filled with joy

    • Jess says:

      07:54pm | 01/01/11

      I agree with Serge.

      Everything around us is filled with the most intricate detail. There is no way that one part could have happened without the other part that it co-depends upon. Every system had to be there complete, or it would not have been able to function.

      Gradual change, adding of data, goo to you, is just flat impossible.

      In fact, there is no proven macro-evolution at all! Micro evolution (change WITHIN species) exists.

      But there is no evidence at all of interspecial change. Only guesses and wishful thinking. Every single ‘find’ has been disproved as a deliberate hoax or a misdiagnosis. (And yeah, there are still die-hard believers out there).

      The evidence overwhelmingly DISproves evolution.

      So, then what?

      For those that dont want to accept a Divine Creation, the only option is Intelligent Design - by aliens…

    • Paul says:

      10:36am | 30/12/10

      Serge, I find it difficult to see how the “big bang” could be the funniest thing you have ever heard. Science does not claim to fully understand it (and continues to spend a massive amount of effort trying to learn more) but we do at least have an observable universe and observations that suggest it’s expanding and point to a “big bang”.

      Surely belief in a god must be “funnier” on any scale? There is absolutely no evidence for it and any questions that can be asked of how our universe came into being must be asked of something as amazing as a God too.

      If you are not willing to think that the earth “just happened” why are you willing to accept that a God “just happened” when a God is surely something more amazing than our little planet?

    • Marnie says:

      10:09am | 30/12/10

      Now how can you not believe that Serge?  Weren’t you created by a “Big Bang”  Oops, sorry….. you probably believe in immaculate conception. wink

    • Norm says:

      07:57am | 30/12/10

      Serge while the Bible says that people should look for Jesus, the Bible says that “NO-ONE” actually, on their own, does go looking for Jesus BUT Jesus comes looking for us. We are like lost sheep & Jesus the Good Shepherd comes loking for us & He wants to save all people & Jesus through the Holy Spirit draws all people but some people accept His Gospel but many do not & others are even hostile to it as this article has drawn out.  In the end people must choose & accept either the blessings or consequences of that choice, for eternity. If anyone says that the Holy Spirit has not tried to save them then I beg to differ.  All the messages about Salvation in this article alone & read by those who are not saved are the Holy Spirit drawing them, if they choose to follow.

    • Doug no longer the doubter. says:

      11:03pm | 29/12/10

      Don’t worry Rosie.In the unlikely even of Gillard entering Paradise,Jesus assured us that in his Father’s house there are many Mansions.I doubt if God would be so unkind to place you both in the same place.
      See you in Heaven Rosie.

    • Norm says:

      10:42pm | 29/12/10

      I would be far more impressed if a journalist or columnist wrote an article saying they believed in Jesus Christ & life after death & were going to Heaven for Eternity. When such an article is sincerely written, then I will be impressed.

    • Elphaba says:

      09:08am | 30/12/10

      We all face disappointment.  Your hope is a world of mindless drones who question nothing and believe everything.  I on the other hand, embrace diversity.  Via la difference!

    • Pietja says:

      10:24pm | 29/12/10

      I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.

      Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence - Richard Dawkins

    • KW says:

      10:19pm | 29/12/10

      the most eloquent description I ever heard of what likely happens after you die came, unbelievably, from South Park. In responding to the question of what he thinks it’s like after you die, one of the characters responded with, “well, probably kinda what it was like before you were born.” Brilliant.

    • Norm says:

      10:17pm | 29/12/10

      There is evidence of an afterlife. That evidence is Jesus Christ & his birth, life, death & resurrection prove he is God & that there is an afterlife. It is not a matter of IF there is an afterlife as there IS one.  The real issue is where will you spend that afterlife. One day all must stand before the judgement seat of Jesus Christ & give account of their life. It will not be a matter of “well I have been good” it will be a matter of, “in whom do you have faith.”  I have no concern about standing before the judgement seat of Christ, not because I think I am special or anything but because I know I have been saved by Him & will not come under judgement because he paid that judgement for me & for any else who chooses to accept it.

    • True Believer says:

      03:28pm | 30/12/10

      Prince:

      And that is why the law, court system etc is called an ass. :0)

    • Prince says:

      08:23am | 30/12/10

      The evidence you have accepted for this is hearsay and would be laughed out of any credible court in any jurisdiction…

    • Jason Todd says:

      07:41am | 30/12/10

      Norm, I think you have misinterpreted what ‘evidence’ most people are looking for. If you are on trial for murder, and you present the strong personal belief that you did not commit the crime as evidence of your innocence, then I doubt you will walk away a free man.

      I understand that your faith and your belief are convincing evidence to you, but you will struggle to convince anyone else that the conclusions that you draw from this evidence are the correct ones. Someone else on this board has stated that there are 2.1 Christians worldwide, and I would wager that not a single one of them experiences or believes in God exactly the same way. Though classified as a group or ‘religion’ the notion and understanding of both God and the afterlife is a personal consideration that no two people experience in the same way. Namely, the same ‘evidence’ leads different people to a different conclusion, even though they supposedly agree on what this evidence means.

      As for your other points, to me, the death and resurrection of Jesus don’t prove an afterlife unless you are a deity (god or demi-god depending on how you view Jesus).

      If ‘goodness’ and morality do not factor into the judgement equation and faith is the one and only proviso, then why bother following a moral code at all? Your faith will grant you paradise and absolution no matter what. Prisons are full of criminals who have faith in Jesus. Does that mean that your view of Heaven is essentially the same as earth, sans the non-believers?

      The whole debate poses an interesting philosophical debate, but don’t sell us non-believers short.

    • Veronique says:

      10:02pm | 29/12/10

      As the brain surgeon said to the Spritualist “I have cut open many people and I am yet to find a soul”.  To which she replied, “Ahh but have you ever found a thought?

    • True Believer says:

      06:52pm | 05/01/11

      @Jamie says

      In answer to your post Jamie:

      I cannot comment on people who have truly known Jesus (as opposed to just believing in Him) turning to religions as in my long life I have not met any true believer who has done that. It would be extremely sad, but people can turn their back on One who loves them just as many turn from human friends/families/spouses etc I guess. Humans make mistakes. He doesn’t that I can attest to.

      On why I became a Christian - I accepted Jesus’ invitation to embrace Life in all its fullness to accept Him as my Lord and Saviour - that moment I came to know Him in a way which would be incomprehensible to the carnal mind.  It had nothing to do with any of the reasons you put forth.

      You talk of religion - Jesus is not religion and religion is not Jesus. He is a Person who can be known as can His great love, know Him you know the Father and the Holy Spirit also. 

      On the evil you speak of - well those things of which you speak depended on man to come into being, not God.  There is an evil one, but you are probably unable to accept that reality either.  He is the author of destruction, eternal death, cruelty, greed, worship of idols and false religions and above all he works to create disbelief in Jesus. He is real and he trembles at the name of Jesus I can assure you.  He has conned people into believing he does not exist.  He does.

      You will not believe me because perhaps, I don’t know, you lack the courage, the humility, the willingness to explore beyond what your carnal mind can comprehend or perhaps you prefer to be one of the unbelieving crowd, “blind leading the blind” as the Bible says.

      All Jesus asks of you is repent and believe - with an honest heart - then you too can know Him as a Person as Someone who loves you with unconditional love.  Not because you (or me for that matter) is a good person or can do anything to earn His gift of life. It is by His Grace and His Grace alone we can know HIm. 

      You have everything to gain and nothing at all to lose that is worthwhile I can assure you. Your choice. God says “I put before you life and death - choose life”.  He is speaking not of the flesh but of the spirit which does live forever. Where -  is up to us individually.

      Thank you for your response. I wish you all the best.

    • jamie says:

      04:16pm | 05/01/11

      The same way that those who believe in Jesus as the lord and saviour cast away that belief to become atheist, Muslim, Buddhist or the rest.

      Traumatic or life changing experiences or opportunities that effect your impression or standing in life or society. Why did you become a christian after being atheist? The urge to belong to something in your society? The need for an answer to the unanswerable? The need for a reason for it all? a second chance?

      People say god exists, that he is all loving but he punishes the bad and rewards the good, and that if something bad happens to you it is a test.

      Now think about Holocaust victims, negro slaves, apartheid victims and so many more. Does God test and punish entire race? Or does he selectively choose how many he will punish for one persons sins? does he use evil to fulfill his punishment? 

      When you step out of your own experience, your own desires and your own time period to all the bad things that humans did when they were less accepting, when some things were considered normal and ethical, and when we simply just did not have an answer or could not accept the logical truth and you realise, the definitions of good and evil and right and wrong have changed with time and with time so has religion changed.

      How does something which worships a timeless creator change so often?

      Religion is a greedy exploitation of human weakness, just like a ponzi scheme where those at the top spend their life in luxury and those at the bottom devote their lives for nothing in return.

      The easiest sell in the world - manipulate fear to sell salvation. After all, forever is a scary thing

    • True Believer says:

      04:28pm | 04/01/11

      Jamie says:

      Methinks your argument is way too simplistic.

      How do you explain the Muslims, Bhuddists, Communists and yet (having been one) even Atheists who come to know Jesus as Lord and Saviour and cast aside their previous belief systems?

    • jamie says:

      12:20am | 02/01/11

      For one Stephen, Jodie as the scientist spent the early portion of her life dependant on her father, with him day and day out.

      The line plays a recall on the fact that people love their parents for that exact same reason. The difference between proving you love someone and god existing is not in proving that but, for one, knowing that the person you love exists because you spend time with them.

      You know the part of the brain which processes an affinity with a religion, when a persons religion is mentioned or shown to them through symbolic images, is the same part of the brain which processes strong-brands (ones you have a strong recognition and affinity with i.e. coca-cola)

      Now did god or Jesus not say that you should not worship a false idol or god? Yet they share the same relationship inside your brain.

      The reason people are religious or love a certain religion is due to the somatic markers created through your upbringing and in impacting events in your life - things which happen which leave such a strong impression on your brain (not necessarily your conscious) that your brain attaches it to an instruction or emotion -i.e if you see boiling water, you know its hot and if you touch it you will get burnt and it will hurt. You learn that once and you never forget it. People tend to learn the hard way, but they learn.

      If you took a Christian child from a devout Christian family at the age of 1 and likewise for an Islamic child from a devout Islamic family, and traded them to the other to be raised as they were their own then without a single doubt, the Christian child would grow to follow Islam and the Islamic child would grow to follow Christianity. 

      It’s the experiences and lessons and impressions in life which create morals, ethics and beliefs.

    • special agent of the Lamb says:

      11:28am | 30/12/10

      stephen:
      Reminds me of another film - The Usual Suspects.
      During one scene in which Kevin Spacey is being interviewed in the police station he says, “The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.”

    • stephen says:

      12:14am | 30/12/10

      That reminds me ... there’s a film called ‘Contact’, a movie about the search for extratrestrials - um,aliens, I can spell that - and an argument ensues between the astronomer/searcher, played by Jodie Foster, who’s kind of anti-religion, and her boyfriend who’s a kind of an alternative priest who’s skeptical about life elsewhere, and the scientist (Jodie), says prove to me God exists, and he says, ‘let me ask you this… ’ Do you love your father’, to which she replies ‘Yes’, and he says, ‘prove it’.
      It’s a nice line.
      I only wish God wrote it.

    • Norm says:

      10:21pm | 29/12/10

      So true Veronique & who said a person’s soul was in their brain.

    • Scott says:

      09:49pm | 29/12/10

      When I die, I’m going to Germany. I hear its nice that time of year.

    • stephen says:

      12:18am | 30/12/10

      ‘THIS’ time of year, sir.
      Or they’ll ignore you for sure.

    • Chase Stevens says:

      09:47pm | 29/12/10

      I do not believe there is anything at all after we die. No heaven and no hell. No god or devil. Nothing. When you die, that’s it. You’re outta there.

      All that much more reason to treat everyone honestly and fairly really.

    • PaulT says:

      09:38pm | 29/12/10

      No matter what they do to our bodies when we die we eventually end up as worm shit. I can understand why people want to hope for something better - but - worm shit is as good as it gets !!!

    • Helen says:

      09:34pm | 29/12/10

      I reckon I will be exactly in the same situation I was before I was born.

    • Servaas Hofmeyr says:

      09:16pm | 29/12/10

      Brilliant article Steve. Well done!

    • neil says:

      08:31pm | 29/12/10

      Look at all the little people with little lives needing to believe that something is still looking after them because they can’t take responsibility for their mediocre existence. We are simple bio-organisms, we spawn we live we die. There are no invisible friends there is no heaven no paradise. Once you are dead you are dead, that’s it, game over. You won’t be wondering what is next nor realising that there is nothing because your cognitive functions will have ceased, you have become an inanimate object worth nothing more than fertilizer.

      Get over yourselves.

    • Laugh says:

      10:31pm | 31/12/10

      Laugh after you are all dead.

    • Dee says:

      09:49am | 31/12/10

      All with what you said Neil….. well done!

      Jesus may have existed but he too was just a microbe.  There is NO WAY ON THIS EARTH that Adam and Eve just APPEARED out of thin air!  When is all the brainwashing gonna stop?

      When a child is told she’s dumb when she really isn’t she’ll grow up believing it herself.

      We are all just highly intelligent animals… we hunt, we eat, we breed, we build shelters, and ..... we ALL kill in some way, shape or form. But because our brains are more evolved then cats, dogs, birds, etc… we “think”.
      Some of us can co-exist with others, and some can’t, like cats in a jungle.

      Those who believe so strongly and have to door knock and preach to others are sick. It’s so embedded into their brains, that it’s a sad reality to them and I pity them.

      So tired of seeing those idiots out on the street holding signs saying the end is coming on [date] and it NEVER comes!!  OMG!!! You’re only making fools out of yourselves!

      As neil says:  “Get over yourselves” - my sides hurt from laughing too much!

    • Horse says:

      04:39pm | 30/12/10

      Norm, are you proposing

      1/ that Jesus Christ sits on a “judgement seat”
      2/ judges every dead person
      3/ has a list of the 1,000s of deeds or pronouncements of each?

      hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhahahahhaha!!!!

    • neil says:

      10:35am | 30/12/10

      No we won’t, we’ll just be dead.

    • Norm says:

      10:24pm | 29/12/10

      Hi Neil,
      One day when we all appear before the judgement seat of Jesus Christ, you will have to stand on that statement.

    • jamie says:

      08:15pm | 29/12/10

      Lets stop the bickering and just call it a 50/50 chance as to whether there is an afterlife or not.

      There is ‘evidence’ it exists, and ‘evidence’ it does not.

    • Happy chappy says:

      07:39pm | 29/12/10

      How did you know that we cease to think? Did you die and resurrect? Tell me who died and live on this world and I will listen.
      I for one does not know, but it’s not stopping me to believe, while making my life the best of it.
      BTW making up stories like the above to discredit the ministers or shoo believers away is nonsense.  Get some help, sunshine.

    • Happy chappy says:

      10:27pm | 31/12/10

      Exactly my point.

    • Norm says:

      10:20pm | 29/12/10

      Happy Chappy, I will tell you who lived on this world & died & was resurrected & so can tell you all about it, it is Jesus Christ.

    • stephen says:

      07:14pm | 29/12/10

      I reckon after I kark it someones gonna have to pay all my bills but i wish to Mother Mary that someone would do it now so’s I can go on holiday.
      Then I’ll know there’s a God and I’ll do good works for ever.
      (On holiday.)

    • crumpy gunt says:

      05:52pm | 29/12/10

      When we die, we cease thinking. That’s it. Humans are the only animal on earth with that type of brain. It has has it’s drawbacks, like when we think of dying, but in between birth and dying is what matters. Make the best of it, it’ll make you happy. When you’re on your death bed, if you are coherent, you’ll realise your value, from the love exhibited from your family and friends present,  so you can slip away with a minimum of fuss, with a smile on your dial. Good luck here. I on the other hand, expect to suffer the fires of HELL, as indoctrinated into my soul at the age of 9 by the Methodist minister, who assured me then, that if I took a drink, that would be my fate. The fires of HELL!.  From 9, I’ve since taken a drink. My fate is sealed.

    • Norm says:

      10:26pm | 29/12/10

      crumpy gunt,
      I have no respect for that Methodist Minister but through Faith in Jesus Christ, whether you drink or not, you will not got to Hell.

    • DJ says:

      05:22pm | 29/12/10

      Having said all of the above.

      It is better to believe in GOD than die only to find out that he exists,

    • Stewart Henstock says:

      05:20pm | 29/12/10

      You either do or you either don’t.
      What amuses me is that those that don’t always seem to be angry with those that do.
      For those that don’t, sun block 10,000 maybe required.
      For those that do, the passing will be easier knowing that a life time of working on ones tan will get you through.
      Personally, when i die i hope i get a Viking funeral, although i think their could be issues with the local council and maybe Peta.
      After watching Beau Guest as a child i’ve always dreamt of being be layed out with my pet by my side on a boat and set alight.
      As for my soul i’m sure it will end up where it deserves to be.

    • Marnie says:

      05:05pm | 29/12/10

      You are all so black or white, there is heaven, hell or nothing. I have given the subject a great deal of thought and investigation over the years and my beliefs are very different. I am not an atheist nor am I a Christian.  I don’t think any church or religion preaches my beliefs. I am sure you do not wish to hear them as your question was had I given the moment after my last breath any thought.  My answer is - yes, I have. I am more certain of my destiny than any one of you.  It doesn’t involve eternal happiness, fire and brimstone or empty voids. I am looking forward to it but not in a rush to get there as there are things to do here if I am to succeed.  In the mean time, please continue - but look outside the box wink

    • Marnie says:

      09:57am | 30/12/10

      Norm, the gospel according to Jesus Christ was written long after his death by mortal men who enterpreted the scriptures in their own way. Added to this was the fact that the ‘church’ only used the scriptures they felt ‘appropriate’ to include in the bible. Poor misguided souls of today follow blindly, convinced it is all fact. That is your perogative, if you are blind to all other possibilities then you have failed the man who beseeched others to do just that.  I don’t have a Gospel Norm, I don’t need one. I believe in what I have learned, not in what others tell me I should believe in.  Your God wanted you to have faith, faith to do the right thing by your fellow man, faith to follow your heart, faith that by believing in the things he taught you about the way to behave, you would be eternally happy. It is simple when you take away man’s scriptures.
      Bless you Norm, I know you are far smarter than the men that wrote your gospel. They lived in a time when the Church had to wield a big stick to make men behave. Now they use a carrot, believe in this and you go to heaven. You don’t need that.  Look at the world around you, open your mind to other possibilites.  There is a God, there is an afterlife but not the way you have been led to believe.  Have faith in yourself.

    • Norm says:

      10:29pm | 29/12/10

      The Gospel according to Marnie???? I prefer the Gospel according to Jesus Christ.

    • Mick Alexander says:

      05:02pm | 29/12/10

      1 John 5:13 says that a person can KNOW that they have eternal life. The little book of 1 John explains that anyone who is born again will not continue in sin and that is how they can know they are saved - that is, the power of the Holy Spirit has delivered them from a sinful lifestyle.

    • Norm says:

      10:32pm | 29/12/10

      Don’t forget Psalm 14: 1

    • Victor H Pigott says:

      04:58pm | 29/12/10

      Thank you Steve for an excellent thought-provoking article.  I agree that you cannot force “faith” upon anyone; belief in Jesus and all that that represents is a personal issue.  The evidence of eternal life is to be found not only in the Christian Bible, but in the teachings of all the world’s major religions. I suggest it is also found in each individuals life experiences, should they bother to closely examine those experiences.  Think carefully about situations you have found yourself in and decisions that you have made and how quite miraculously you managed to get yourself out of a “sticky” situation.  Was it just luck or coincidence as the atheists would claim or was it something else, something that you can’t quite explain?  For Christians the evidence we seek is the life of Jesus, a man who was unjustly convicted and put to death by the tyrannical Roman State for a crime he did not commit, but who rose again in fulfillment of the prophecies.  This is a personal belief, I don’t impose it on any person, but I challenge anyone to prove that Jesus was not the son of God and did not rise from the Dead.

    • Greg H says:

      07:25am | 30/12/10

      I have the psychic ability to implant strong personal beliefs into the minds of people worldwide, no matter how counter-intuitive or absurd they may seem to those on the outside. This is a personal belief. I don’t impose it on any person, but I challenge anyone to prove that this is not the case.

      Oh wait, how does burden of proof work again? That’s right. If I am going to make an outrageous claim, then the burden is on me to prove it correct, not on everyone else to prove it incorrect. Victor, you are allowed to hold whatever personal beliefs that you wish, but if you are going to issue challenges, then they are going to be held to the same rules and up to the same scrutiny that everyone else has to play by.

    • Gidgee says:

      04:54pm | 29/12/10

      The person who wrote this guff can accept whatever he likes to believe - that’s one of humanity’s great privileges.
      The only thing I would express to the author is “don’t push such utter rot my way, directly or indirectly” - it’s all a well-tried concoction to try to explain the mystery of all global life, not just human life - of course it applies sharply to us of mankind because we can reflect on our doings and ponder what would happen “if” whereas other living creatures appear unable to think beyond where to live, who to mate with and where their next meal is coming from (gosh, isn’t that really what mankind does too?).
      I’m here to tell you, Mr Kryger, that your death won’t make a fig of difference to this old planet on which we find ourselves any more than my spirit’s departure from my mortal coil will.
      We, all of us, every living thing come about by chance, we exist as a mystery, and when we die we go back to what we were before we were born: nothing.
      Rather than pushing this Christ thing, or making snide remarks about the Muslim thing you should try to adopt the sage advice which goes as follows:
      “life is not a mystery which has to be solved, it is a mystery which has to be lived”.
      Try it….and for the love of reason do stop bleating about what happens after you’ve permanently stopped breathing.
      There’s a good intelligent chap.

    • Gary T. says:

      04:52pm | 29/12/10

      “Of course, there’s the occasional atheist who is convinced that they have no eternal soul that will endure beyond their last breath, but from my random sampling, these are few and far between.”

      Occasional? Don’t think so. Good article though, I encourage more people to really think about it. Personally I believe one second after I die my “soul” will no longer exist, only a lifeless body. I do however believe that people live on, through other people’s memory of them and the experiences they’ve shared together.

    • Dee says:

      04:43pm | 29/12/10

      I believe there IS something after death but I don’t believe it has anything to do with some higher power called “god”. I believe in energy, I believe in people communicating with you after death. I’ve experienced it [once] and I’m not religious. So I say for all those Atheists and all those Catholics/Christians and all high and holy people out there, there is a that gray area. I don’t believe there’s a heaven and I don’t believe there’s a hell.  They are all merely our OWN opinions… our OWN beliefs… to each his own.

    • michael j says:

      04:21pm | 29/12/10

      spose i’ll be sitten round a barbeqe of tender roast lamb with
      luciefer satan and the devil waiten for some lunatic to start the
      world’s largest thorium reactor and blow the whole place back to the start,

    • Paul says:

      04:06pm | 29/12/10

      What good would research do?  I mean, whatever you come up with, when it comes time to find out if you’re right or wrong you’re dead so there’s not much you can do about it.  And who are you going to ask to get your evidence anyway?  Dead people? It’s a total cul-de-sac. Besides, isn’t evidence irrelevant to faith anyway? The whole Dawkins v Church thing is apples and oranges because everything he throws at them can be batted away with the cure-all gesture towards faith, mysticism, the ineffable, unknowable mystery of God (said while poking your tongue out at the enraged scientists). Researching your phone contracts is frankly a much better use of your time, especially if you’re a vodafone client.  This whole post smacks of a profoundly unprofound belief in one’s own profundity.

    • Brian says:

      09:12am | 30/12/10

      @Norm, OK I will.  Where do I find him?

    • Norm says:

      10:37pm | 29/12/10

      Maybe you should ask Jesus Christ about it.

    • All Crap says:

      03:54pm | 29/12/10

      Afterlife scam….just to keep the masses in check in the here and now.
      The afterlife is akin to UFO’s.

      One big fairy tale to try and keep anarchy and crime in check.

    • Newshound says:

      03:37pm | 29/12/10

      Hey I’m notgoing to give you the “heavy hand” but realise that this life is only the start of where you go. (You choose the destination.) Whether it be “Heaven or Hell” it’s completly up to you, but realise “That your’e dead a longtime” and the decision you make now determines where you end up. I will be found in heaven. Where will you be ?

    • Norm says:

      10:40pm | 29/12/10

      Hi Newshound,
      All must appear before the judgement seat of Christ.  Our job is to witness.  The Holy Spirit’s job is to convert those who choose to be converted.  One thing is for sure & that is God will respect each person’s choice whether they like it or not. Keep witnessing.

    • neil says:

      09:10pm | 29/12/10

      Afterlife, Faries, Santa, Heaven, Werewolfs, Vampires, Angels, UFO’s, Bermuda triangle, God, Global warming, Hell, Witches, Satan, Voodoo, Alla, Karma, Fate, Lepricorns, Sirens, Saints, Demons.

      It goes on and on.

      You are delusional, there are no invisable friends or invisable evils. It’s just us living our lives and everything that is good or bad is either our fault or Sh!t just happens.

      Get over yourselves and take responsibility for the sh!t in your lives.

      You are the reason it happened!

    • Reg says:

      04:46pm | 29/12/10

      I am not sure how you are so certain we are all “dead for a long time” since all such things are relative. Nor for that matter is it clear why you have been provided with the total comprehension you have chosen to display with such overwhelming confidence. Presuming you are not God, there is at least some doubt about where you will be found and given the condescension and superiority you exude your goose is cooked.

    • Rick says:

      03:29pm | 29/12/10

      I’ll never forget the interview between Ray Martin and Packer.

      Packer was clinically dead , ready to go to the cool chamber and suddendly he starts breathing and recovered.

      Afew weeks later he was interviewed life on tv and Ray Martin asked a him that question;
      what did you see when you were dead ?
      Packer’s answer: what would like to know the good news or the bad ones!
      Ray: the bad one
      Packer : there is no paradise
      Ray: the good one now
      Packer: there is no hell.

      That says it all for me.

    • jamie says:

      10:51pm | 01/01/11

      Ben H,

      Welcome to the world you live in. If you have ever slept in a bed, driven a car, shopped at the supermarkets, drunk a bottled drink, used public transport, used a light, read a published book, watched a movie,  used a computer, stored food in a fridge or anything of the likes, then you have accepted liberalism, democracy and the associated capitalism for the comforts you have accepted in life.

      If you want a world where things a free and no one is better off than anyone else, then you will have to start your own and be self sufficient.

      If everyone gets the same and no one is allowed to get ahead then no one wins, no one cares and no one helps. The closest form to total equality was socialism and it almost destroyed a country. Like it or not, democracy was built to benefit the individual which helps further benefit the community. Take away one key aspect (say, liberalism) and it fails.

      It is the most simple and primitive aspect of our universe, in all forms of life: life isn’t fair, there’s a winner, there’s a loser, followers and leaders, those with more and those with less, those who try and fail, those who try and succeed, and those who just don’t try.

      This will never change.

    • Ben H says:

      12:07am | 31/12/10

      My apologies. I meant Alan. I’m still skeptical of Jones. Happy NEW YEAR!

    • Ben H says:

      06:01pm | 30/12/10

      BTW, Jamie, I’m skeptical of the agenda of Alex Jones.

    • Ben H says:

      04:15pm | 30/12/10

      HappyCynic,

      Love involves sharing, not greedily keeping what you have an excess of away from those that need it. We wouldn’t need charity if the system was set up to ensure that. Love would prosper because no one would have the chance to be ‘better’ than or ‘superior’ to others.

      I love freedom, but at the moment it is only available to those with the extended democratic agency (money) to afford it. Do you think a homeless man has as much freedom as a billionaire that had everything handed to him? And why shouldn’t the more humble and modest have equal freedom?

      I personally know a few rich people (millionaires), and have only ever met one decent one.

      You need to move beyond the shallow idea that rampant ‘liberalism’ (the opportunity to exploit) is compatible with democracy (an equal say for all, regardless of their ‘social status’).

    • HappyCynic says:

      08:14am | 30/12/10

      @Ben H

      A world without success is a world without freedom.  A world with love invariably must be a world with hate (how else would you measure love otherwise?  If you remove hate from a world you MUST remove love as well).

      Freedom above all else is more important.  Today’s system allows freedom, you don’t like it?  Be thankful that you have the choice to not like it.  In a world like the one you propose such a freedom could not be extended to anyone.

      The only reason why you don’t know many decent people from “the big end of town” is either because you don’t know any and/or you approach them with preconceived notions that a rich person can not ever be a good person.  No person is perfect but the sum of a person’s attributes almost always outweighs their flaws.  This you would know if you didn’t judge people before you knew them.

    • Ben H says:

      11:12pm | 29/12/10

      PS: The control grid has to be brought down, one way or another, to usher-in a future age based on pure love.

    • Ben H says:

      11:06pm | 29/12/10

      Jamie,

      I don’t have a church.

      Packer and other tycoons provide incomes under the current system, in which everything has a price tag, and nothing is done unless it is profitable for the people at the top of the economic food chain. People have to clock into a dictatorship 5 days a week just to survive, while others sit back and suck up the rewards.

      It’s easy for the rich to give a little bit and call themselves philanthropists. Is the same democratic agency afforded to the masses of slaves? Frank Packer earned that wealth; his descendants are freeloaders that never deserved it.

      This is just one example of rampant ‘liberalism’ not being compatible with democracy. Rights mean nothing without enough money to exercise them. Therefore, the rich have more rights than the common man. That’s part of what will change.

      One small example of the masses turning away from debt enslavement (capitalism):
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rshdJZruH_0

      Not even the publicly-funded storm troopers protecting your private property - nor their batons, guns or tear gas - will be able to hold us back.

      There is no resentment, only love. Greed is almost the polar opposite of love.

      Yes, I do this stuff for free, but obviously I have to work to support myself. I’m also studying for a degree.

      I’m posting here to try and get people to talk about this stuff. So far, so good.

      Less is more. I don’t know of many decent people from the very big end of town. Often ‘success’ means selling one’s soul.

      I think our disrespect is mutual. That means I’m doing something right. You should think about changing before it’s too late to turn back. I don’t like your outlook, but you are a human being, and they are the ones I want to help.

    • True Believer says:

      11:03pm | 29/12/10

      What about the 20million dollars Mr P lost in one night at a casino in Las Vegas - that would have put food in a lot of needy mouths, beds in hospitals, aids for disabled etc.

    • jamie says:

      10:01pm | 29/12/10

      Ben H, look at your own church and tell me about their wealth.

      And you’re right, the wealth he built has gone to his ‘offspring’, but the wealth he has created provides thousands jobs and homes and food and the likes of betterment for the lives of citizens like yourself. Men like Packer are a few of the leading reasons Australia has become the economical first world country you see today.

      Show me the masses which are turning away from capitalism and free society and i’ll show you the greater masses which are turning towards it - China and India, amongst other evolving third world countries.

      I get the impression you see yourself as the righteous man doing the righteous thing. Quick to cast the stone, but what is the resentment based on? do you work for free and take no money for yourself, sheltering the homeless and feeding the starving?

      IF you are as righteous as you put yourself across to be then I don’t see how you have the time to read and preach on this forum. The work people do and the sacrifice people make to help the needy or unfortunate is a great thing, but to condemn a man who from a position of wealth also did it is pathetically prejudice and resentful.

      I don’t seek the respect of a man who thinks he has to be poor to be righteous.

    • Ben H says:

      08:38pm | 29/12/10

      You are a fan of BOTH Ray Martin AND Kerry Packer! That says it all for me.

    • Ben H says:

      08:31pm | 29/12/10

      Jamie,

      The very existence of wealthy tycoons is contrary to the way the world should operate. What happened to the other 98% of ‘his’ wealth? It went to his offspring; the vicious cycle was perpetuated.

      When tens of thousands die of hunger every day, and countless others don’t even have homes, one would have to be bottom-of-the-barrel pathetic (or just downright ignorant) to condone the great wealth divide.

      I get the impression you are a left-brained bureaucrat desperately trying to cling to your unfair material advantage and false sense of superiority. You are trying to legitimise a corrupt system that the masses are turning away from in droves. I think this might eventually catch up with you.

      When you stand up for people like Packer, I just can’t respect you.

    • Ben H says:

      08:23pm | 29/12/10

      Jamie,

      The very existence of wealthy tycoons is contrary to the way the world should operate. What happened to the other 98% of ‘his’ wealth? It went to his offspring; the vicious cycle was perpetuated.

      When hundreds of thousands die of hunger every day, and countless others don’t even have homes, one would have to be bottom-of-the-barrel pathetic (or just downright ignorant) to condone the great wealth divide.

      I get the impression you are a left-brained bureaucrat desperately trying to cling to your unfair material advantage and false sense of superiority. You are trying to legitimise a corrupt system that the masses are turning away from in droves. I think this might eventually catch up with you.

      When you stand up for people like Packer, I just can’t respect you.

    • jamie says:

      07:48pm | 29/12/10

      According to your belief system, Ben H.? You should be worried about the wealth of the religion you follow in then.

      Oh and by the way, your description of a greed and individualistic person comes with the following:

      “Professor Kim Oates, chief executive of the Children’s Hospital at Westmead, said Mr Packer had used his influence to have the NSW and federal governments give $5 million each to match his own $10 million donation to the hospital.”

      and

      “Mr Packer is perhaps best known for the $2.5 million donation he made to the NSW Ambulance Service following a heart attack he suffered in 1990.”

      and

      “He launched an organ transplant association, the David Hookes Foundation,”

      and

      “His charitable donations have been estimated at A$8 million a year”

      and he said “When you are dead you’re dead. If you can help someone in death that’s the greatest gift (organ donation) you can give.”

      Ben H, “Radio commentator Alan Jones described Mr Packer as a “quiet giver”, who was “phenomenally generous”. he was responsible for getting portable defibrillators placed into NSW ambulances, paying for half.

      If that is a selfish, greedy man in your eyes Ben H then the rest of the world has no hope. reconsider whats pathetic here

    • Ben H says:

      04:12pm | 29/12/10

      Yeah, that Packer was a real shining example of how to live and share! A symbol of greed and individualism, the guy had no hope of an afterlife. What a pathetic example.

    • Ned says:

      03:25pm | 29/12/10

      What happens when you die? Some lucky people get all of your stuff!

    • bull says:

      03:19pm | 29/12/10

      When you go to bed at nite have a little think before you close your eyes . If wake up your in the after life. If you don’t wake up ya dead.

    • MelD says:

      03:30pm | 29/12/10

      as I lay me down to sleep, a bag of peanuts at my feet, if I die before I wake, give them to my brother Jake

    • Jon says:

      03:15pm | 29/12/10

      I would like to know why Atheists believe so strongly that there is no god or life after death?

      given that science has failed to disprove either.

      it has been stated that religious followers fear the wrath of god and therefore this is reason for them to live a good life.

      How many people live a good life, partially, at least, due to the society we live in?  Break a law, go to jail, how many people fear jail?

      how many people fear the higher authority (governments)?

      its not just religion that teaches us to lead good lives, its society, and society itself does not have to be good in order to demand it from its citizens.

      humans are arrogant, we believe that science is the answer to all our questions.  there is one fundamental problem with human science.  Its human.

      Humans do not know much about nothing, Science, for the most part, only arrives at theories on how things work, derived from the scientific method where even life after death cannot be accepted as one of the techniques used in the scientific method, observation, cannot be attributed to life after death.  So, because science cannot even accept it into the scientific method, never mind debate the hypothesis, does that mean life after death is wrong?

      of course it doesn’t.  It means that the evidence in scientific terms is not available for us to debate.

      the same as black holes.  We hypothesise how they’re formed, how they work, but we don’t know what happens inside them.  All our laws of physics stop at that point.  It is unexplainable.  Does that mean that black holes don’t exist?  of course not.

      Science, in today’s world, is full of disinformation, subject to government interference and cover ups and generally speaking, it is no longer a reliable method of discovery and truth finding because of the amount of red tape, independent bodies and financial incentives and other blocking of information that science uncovers.

      We know that NASA have smudged out images on the lunar surface that seemingly show buildings and/or craft, many people do not question it, we know the moon is much older than the earth, yet we are still told the moon was formed from a collision with the earth, all scientific discoveries which have been covered up for whatever reason by the governments and agencies behind them.  Is it for our benefit? 

      Science has stated that energy does leave the body upon death. Science also states that energy cannot be destroyed, it simply changes form.

      if Science were to conclusively prove today that life after death was true or untrue, would we know about it?

      and if so, what implications would it have?

      I would imagine that most religions would be shaken to their foundation stones, that anarchy would prevail throughout the world, both with religious and non religious alike.

      are we likely to know for sure what lies after death before we actually take that last breath for ourselves?

      I don’t think so.
      I see some comments here seemingly making a mockery of faith and one’s belief that there is a higher authority that Julia or Obama…

      we all have faith.  I have faith in my mechanics ability to sort out my car problems, I have faith in the chef at my local restaurant to not poison me when I eat there, despite someone being poisoned last week.

      At some point in time everyone has put faith in something. 

      Creation, Life, Death and life after death are all up for debate.

      No-one knows how we are here, why we are here and where we are going.

      I can only say this.  I have witnessed the smiles on faces of religious people as they breathe their last.  Confident in their own belief that they are going to a better place.

      Can non-believers say they will be smiling when they breathe their last, believing that this is it?

      As a scientist myself, I find myself in a minority of being both a believer in some form of higher power (God) and completely dismissing the idea due to the illogical notion that some other scientists have.  I consider myself a true scientist as the scientific method has refused and therefore failed to provide proof either way.

      Until that day comes, I will keep an open mind.  When I come to take my last breath, I may, just for the sake of it, try a little smile.

    • Reg says:

      07:41am | 30/12/10

      @Jon… “humans are arrogant, we believe that science is the answer to all our questions.  there is one fundamental problem with human science.  Its human.”

      Disregarding your attraction to conspiracy theories, the same arrogance could be applied to faith based religion. The belief that -belief- is the answer to all our questions, is arrogance and falls well short of the mark, as any professed scientist should know. Are you given to faking your scientific results to meet your beliefs? I hope not, yet religion can believe anything it wants without question. It’s interesting also, that so many theists here regard any contrary comment as an attack on their beliefs. This is rather an unfortunate reaction because it displays a certain sensitivity to how difficult it is to support their beliefs. It’s not that people are attacking the beliefs, that they find to be so unpalatable, it is simply that someone has the audacity to disagree with them. Now that’s arrogance. (See Rosie.)

    • Paul says:

      04:13pm | 29/12/10

      “It means that the evidence in scientific terms is not available for us to debate.”

      I wonder how something for which is apparently not possible to gather evidence could ever be said to exist?

      I can’t see how you can science can be accused of failing to disprove the concept of “God” while that is only true to the extent that you specifically (yet vaguely) define God as something outside our sphere of reality.

      It seems to me that the second you start making actual claims for a God (such as a creation story or claims of intervention through prayer) then those claims are testable with science.

      Science can only fail to address the issue of God when you define God as something entirely separate from our existence and therefore something entirely unreal.

    • jamie says:

      03:45pm | 29/12/10

      There is a big difference being faith and trust, society was not made overnight, and your argument of science needing to disprove afterlife is floored.

      Firstly, to make a bold statement of afterlife and a higher power requires supporting evidence beyond an ancient book. Secondly, science can’t disprove generic statements. “God exists” or “there is an afterlife” are generic statements. They are not theories because they do not provide any support.

      For example: “i am the greatest” is a generic statement that cannot be counted as a theory. “I am the greatest mathmetician” is not a generic statement and can be disproven.

    • Levi says:

      03:15pm | 29/12/10

      Just be glad that the cab driver didn’t knife you to secure his spot with the virgins in heaven

    • MEDIA MIKE says:

      03:14pm | 29/12/10

      You know with all the controversy going on I must say that I’m surprised at people who believe once you’re dead that’s it. No it’s not. There is an afterlife and if you handle this life okay you will get into heaven.
      Hey I know I’m not perfect (Pretty close to it) but I do know that a place in heaven is there for me. I wonder, ???, how many I will see there ?

    • Warren says:

      02:47pm | 29/12/10

      I’m staggered that no-one has brought out the fact that there IS evidence supporting a conscious existence after physical death!  Has no-one read any of the studies of the thousands of cases where people have been revived after clinical death? Sure, some remember nothing but a great many do and the scenario the describe is remarkably consistent across cultural, religious and ethnic divides.
      And it’s facile to dismiss this as merely “neurons shutting down” etc. etc. People come back telling details of things (in the operating theatre for example) that they could not have known.
      And if you follow the latest development in particle physics you’ll know that science is on the verge of recognizing the so-called “Dark Matter” that makes up 85% of the universe - “a parallel, invisible universe” - Scientific American Nov 2010 for example. There’s your key to what religion calls “spirit.”

      We all have the choice to spend our days as we wish but answers ARE out there. Judging by the dominant views expressed in this column many people are in for a big surprise when their time comes!

    • jamie says:

      08:12pm | 29/12/10

      and whats your experience diane?

    • Diane Williamson says:

      05:25pm | 29/12/10

      Im with you Warren…well said and well thought out ...from my experience your comments are spot on !

    • MelD says:

      03:26pm | 29/12/10

      revived after clinical death is not evidence they may not have been clinically dead after all, there is still so much about the human condition that we don’t understand, their hearts could have been beating slower than what the computers could detect, let someone come back after 3 years of ‘dead’ and then tell us, they probably didn’t get all the way up the escalator that argument is dumb and if they know what’s going on in the operating theatre then they weren’t in heaven were they? unless that is heaven, whatever give me ‘hell’ any day!

    • bleD says:

      03:15pm | 29/12/10

      You are good are repeating scientific mumbo-jumbo but don’t understand any of it. Warren, Stick to your metier.

      I’m afraid that all of you looking for an after-life will be bitterly disappointed—or rather you won’t be as your consciousness will have disappeared. When you die your molecules will get recycled into something else, but you (and your soul whatever that is) will be gone forever. Make the most of your present existence.

    • Ben H says:

      02:42pm | 29/12/10

      We are absorbed into the collective consciousness of an infinite universe. The forced subjective mind-trap (the ‘imagination of ourselves’ - BH) evaporates and we realise that we are everything, all at once, not just something existing independently of everything else.

      Every thought, memory and aspect of the journey experienced by every ‘individual’ that has ever lived, along with everything that has ever taken place in the universe, is perceived by ‘us’, all at once; like an infinite, all-inclusive mural/timeline that cannot be seen through mind.

      The people that make the wrong choices potentially have to embrace the mortal coil for eternity.

      We would all know this, and would all be living accordingly, if the knowledge hadn’t been suppressed for millennia by the few that control the many. The current awakening is moving us in this direction, but the control grid is throwing everything at us to keep us enslaved.

      We are approaching the end of a cycle that lasts tens of thousands of ‘years’. Time and space - like EVERYTHING EXCEPT PURE LOVE - are an illusion.

    • Ben H says:

      05:19pm | 29/12/10

      BTW, that’s why our captors pulled-off 9/11; to increase control and surveillance; to weed out the people who are trying to facilitate this transformation for the betterment of mankind as a whole. Both ideology and physical force keep us imprisoned.

      They always knew it was coming. They think they can contain it, but nothing can. When someone so ruthlessly ‘battens down the hatches’, you can be sure they fear a storm.

      Although I’m somewhat of an ‘unorthodox religious/spiritual pluralist’ (what a term!), I equate the enslavement agenda of the ‘elite’ with Satanism. Once they are removed (when enough people wake up and mobilise), we can all relearn our place as children of the stars.

      I know many might think I’m a crackpot (I don’t mind), but more and more people will understand this in the next few years, I promise.

      What do people think?

    • Ben H says:

      02:39pm | 29/12/10

      We are absorbed into the collective consciousness of an infinite universe. The forced subjective mind-trap (the ‘imagination of ourselves’ - BH) evaporates and we realise that we are everything, all at once, not just something existing independently of everything else.

      Every thought, memory and aspect of the journey experienced by every ‘individual’ that has ever lived, along with everything that has ever taken place in the universe, is perceived by ‘us’, all at once; like an infinite, all-inclusive mural/timeline that cannot be seen through mind.

      The people that make the wrong choices potentially have to embrace the mortal coil for eternity.

      We would all know this, and would all be living accordingly, if the knowledge hadn’t been suppressed for millennia by the few that control the many. The current awakening is moving us in this direction, but the control grid is throwing everything at us to keep us enslaved.

      We are approaching the end of a cycle that lasts tens of thousands of years.

    • Ambo Manbo says:

      02:26pm | 29/12/10

      Im an Ambo / Paramedic and know a few ambos that have asked the question to people that have died and been brought back after a cardiac arrest - guess what they say?.................................................. nothing…. out of all the jobs I have attended or my colleagues have attended, thats the common thread, people either see nothing or cannot recall anything after they die.

      Well in our experience anyway…..

    • Ben H says:

      03:01pm | 29/12/10

      What about the white tunnel leading to infinity reported by near-death survivors all over the world? I heard the same thing from a mate who had multiple brushes with death (warnings?) before his final one.

    • Paul says:

      02:22pm | 29/12/10

      I can’t see how “I”, in any reasonable sense of the word, could possibly be said to exist after life is over.

      It seems to me that my brain, including it’s limitations, pretty much defines what it means to be “me”. If my brain were damaged here and now then I would not be the person I was.

      Similarly if some undefinable part of me exists and were to go on without the physical and chemical gifts and burdens manifested in my brain I can hardly see how that part could be said to be “me” in any real sense.

      As a wise man once said, “I yam what I yam, and that’s all what I yam”.

    • Rob Hill says:

      02:17pm | 29/12/10

      Steve, God is clear in His explanation of resurrection. You can only be raised if you were once given His Holy Spirit ( only a small percentage of Christians have/will receive this). You die (the first time) and no absolutely nothing as you rot but the Spirit remains with your remains as a signpost to your whereabouts. Those who never received the Holy Spirit have had their fling in this life ONLY. When raised (Christians and Jews only) you will be judged on your past, pass and you enter heaven, fail and you get the second death in the pit of fire. Unfortunately, all those really evil degenerates that have lived will get off without further punishment. So, to your question - one second after I die (in your time) I will be starting to rot and no or feel nothing. But one second later (in my Time), my next awareness will be in a resurrected form hopefully - even if it is in 1,000 years actual time. Good luck.

    • A Bob says:

      04:58pm | 29/12/10

      I thought so.

      Which Bible do you use and recommend? I have the NASB, RSV, NIV, KJV, NKJV, Good News (ashamed to admit…), as well as extracts from the Vulgate and a few unofficial translations.

      Or should I just go to my Greek interlinear?

      Nothing like a self-made fundamentalist.

      P.S. What about the gnostic gospels and apocrypha, do they count?

    • Richard says:

      04:37pm | 29/12/10

      Rob, your understanding of both the bible and christianity are badly flawed.  Sorry.  The bible is just a book.  If you place so much belief in the bible, I look forward to hearing that you are planning on enslaving people as in the bible god clearly is OK with slavery.

    • Rob Hill says:

      04:00pm | 29/12/10

      A Bob, if you need references you are either lazy or incapable of reading and understanding your Bible. There are too many references throughout the Bible for me to waste an hour or so to save you the effort. “Holy Spirit” would be a very good starting point for a search. I have spent many years of studying without the need of any ‘Church’, ‘spin doctor’ or supposed theologist. I ONLY use the Bible!

    • A Bob says:

      03:03pm | 29/12/10

      References, please.

    • Radagast says:

      02:10pm | 29/12/10

      It’s for each one of us to discover, in our own time, in our own way. The church is in crisis because it tries to dictate the answer to everybody. Be at peace, the answer lies within.

    • BA says:

      02:00pm | 29/12/10

      The irony of this piece is that Steve works for a sect of Calvinist Anglicans most of whom believe in predestination.  For them people don’t have a choice as to whether they go to heaven or hell, god decided who will go before the beginning of time.  There’s nothing any individual can do or believe that will change god’s mind on this.

      So why do they write stuff like this, when they actually believe that changing people’s minds or behaviour won’t affect their chances of going to heaven or hell? 

      I can only guess that it’s about getting bums on seats and pennies in the collection plates.
      .

    • BA says:

      04:42pm | 29/12/10

      Have a look at the ‘Anglican Diocese of Sydney’ entry in wikipedia or browse their website, or that of their chief ideologue Phillip Jensen.

    • A Bob says:

      02:58pm | 29/12/10

      A Calvinist? Really? I Googled him but didn’t pick that up, can you provide a link?

      But yes, Calvanism and evangelism are oxymoronic.

    • Tedd says:

      02:42pm | 29/12/10

      Good point, BA. 

      Predestination negates a lot of arguments from authority or tradition or both.  It really only worked as a proposition when Christianity captured majority and was used to bully those who may have been having second thoughts

    • Rahm says:

      01:57pm | 29/12/10

      what about animals and plants. They also live and die like us..dont they, who decides their fate. They were here before us humans..Pls dont take me wrong, i am not arguing but just wanna know more about other living things on this planet…I believe in God and I pray every day…I hope plants and animals also do in someway…

    • Elphaba - accidental plant killer says:

      08:49pm | 29/12/10

      I don’t know about plants, but I do know that my flatmate has charged me with looking after a plant she got for Christmas (she’s gallavanting on the other side of the world).  Being not a green thumb at all, I plan to water it, talk to it, play it music and put it out in the fresh air for a few hours a day.

      I kinda hope it’s happy. grin

    • jamie says:

      07:51pm | 29/12/10

      plants and animals are efficient beings which do not appear to have the time to waste on preconceptions of their imagination.

    • Rev Lovejoy says:

      03:10pm | 29/12/10

      Animals and plants are pre-programed. They do not have a soul like humans do. Personality and soul are not the same.

    • bob says:

      01:50pm | 29/12/10

      Adventures Beyond the Body’

    • Grumpy Pants says:

      01:49pm | 29/12/10

      What happens when we die? We are judged and enter the kingdom of heaven. I beleive there are more people in heaven than hell. God is forgiving and all loving.  I loose nothing by believing and certainly never force my beliefs down anyone’s throat.  Seeking to achieve the same attitude as Christ is not harmful either. He was non judgmental and all loving.

    • P. Darvio says:

      12:39pm | 02/01/11

      .....but do Christian Men get 72 virgns like that other religion gives their men when they do GODs work as per their religious texts?

    • P. Darvio says:

      01:44pm | 29/12/10

      The Christian faith conveniently and arrogantly dismisses 40,000+ years of Aboriginal culture because of the required Christian Bible Belief that the Universe is less than 10,000 years old - what a sick evil religion it is. All Christians should be ashamed of this and apologise to the traditional owners for their perverted views.

    • Wayne Kerr says:

      09:27am | 30/12/10

      All well and good but the topic is “What do you think happens when we die?” not “Should every known culture in the universe apologise to the aboriginal population that were here before the white man/christians”

      The latter is a topic I would love to discuss with you on another forum or over a beer but I don’t believe it has a place here.

      You have to love theological discssions.  Much more fun than discussing sex or politics.

    • P. Darvio says:

      04:53pm | 29/12/10

      Glad to hear you are not a Christian - can I assume you are also an atheist?

      Question: what does your comment have to do with this discussion?

      Answer: What part doesn’t? The author of the article claims” The Bible is both the authority and road-sign” - so as a matter of his faith he has to then believe the Universe is less than 10,000 years old and as a consequence must dismiss 40,000+ years of indigenous culture. As per my original comment this Christian view is both convenient and arrogant.

    • Wayne Kerr says:

      02:14pm | 29/12/10

      I’m a non christian and my response to your comment is….I’m thinking of 2 words, they involve sex and travel…what am I thinking?

      Seriously, what does your comment have to do with this discussion…nothing.

    • milfot says:

      01:30pm | 29/12/10

      I always thought the central part of Jesus’ teaching was to do unto others / turn the other cheek. The really revolutionary idea he was teaching, and it still holds true today, is kindness multiplies (and so does retribution).

      I always found the other guff tacked on at the end about eternal life and Jesus being the son of god and obvious and deliberate of the powers that be to attempt to both co-opt and circumvent that central idea.

      In my experience, Christian’s who single out life after death as the central part of their faith are the most selfish, judgemental and anti-christian of all. You know them, they are the ones who prefer to quote Peter or Revelations rather than Jesus. Maybe if they were a little less concerned with their afterlife and a little more concerned with the welfare of their fellow men, the world would be a better place.

    • Jesus girl says:

      11:03am | 30/12/10

      You are correct when you say we should be more concerned with the welfare of our fellow man.  I am a Christian, but I am astounded at how many there are who profess to be Christian yet, for whatever reason, seem to just take care of themselves.  I don’t mean this as judgment, merely observation.
      On the other hand, Jesus didn’t just talk about loving thy neighbour.  The message of the gospel is two-fold.  That other ‘guff’ was also taught by Jesus.  Here are some other quotes from Jesus:
      “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.  No one comes to the Father except through Me.”  -John 14:6
      “But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!”  -Luke 12:5
      “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things?  I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” -Luke 13:2,3
      “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.”  -Luke 13:24
      “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.  Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”  -Matthew 7:13,14
      “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.  All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.  And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.  Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:  for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;  I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
      “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?  When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?  Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’  And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
      “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:  for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;  I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
      “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’  Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’  And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”  -Matthew 25:31-46

      Some food for thought perhaps?

    • Tim says:

      01:23pm | 29/12/10

      GOD is just perfection and truth. I believe there is only way to true expression and perfection. The reality is many people need to realize their actions, desires and thoughts could be impure, untrue. You become what you do. To become god or go to heaven is too understand truth. Those who turn a blind eye to truth are there for in darkness as they don’t see the light.
      Light, truth, god and perfection have a connection i believe. Society might believe everyday is OK, but i don’t think so. It’s just cause’s a more extreme imperfection that will have to be resolved sooner or later. What we see as right in our world, might been as wrong in the heavens. We don’t see this as we are in darkness. To see the light, is see the truth.

    • Peter says:

      05:23pm | 29/12/10

      Your saying “to turn a blind eye to truth” but what if its actually a lie? Just saying what if? You have blinded yourself…  blind as in not even willing to consider the thought that there might be something else different or not at all? are you not blinding yourself by such thought? After all… anyone and everyone CAN be and HAS been wrong at some point , after all we are all human and its what we do how we learn…
      and as we learn, like when we grow up our beliefs about things can change as we come to realizations and better understanding of our world and life.

      I am an Atheist and I worship life… not death

    • Tim says:

      01:22pm | 29/12/10

      GOD is just perfection and truth. I believe there is only way to true expression and perfection. The reality is many people need to realize their actions, desires and thoughts could be impure, untrue. You become what you do. To become god or go to heaven is too understand truth. Those who turn a blind eye to truth are there for in darkness as they don’t see the light.
      Light, truth, god and perfection have a connection i believe. Society might believe everyday is OK, but i don’t think so. It’s just cause’s a more extreme imperfection that will have to be resolved sooner or later. What we see as right in our world, might been as wrong in the heavens. We don’t see this as we are in darkness. To see the light, is see the truth.

    • Brett says:

      01:21pm | 29/12/10

      Do we really believe that if God does exist he/she is so lacking in self-esteem and desperate for validation that he/she created the Earth and everything on it just so that its HUMAN inhabitants could prove their worthiness to get into heaven by worshipping him/her and that this same merciful benevolent God would allow his/her son to be tortued and die just so that a) Mel Gibson, Monty Python, the Catholic Church and eBay could make some money and b) those humans that happened to be born into a Christian house and were indoctrinated accordingly could grow up to worship this carpenter who rose from the dead, never came back curiously, and stayed in heaven, okay, thats fine but James Cameron wouldve been proud of creating a story like that

    • Greg says:

      01:15pm | 29/12/10

      We have the attitude we have of death and the after life because, at the end of the day, there`s been no one to come back and say “This is how it is!”, no definitive proof, nothing - only conjecture. Sure every living thing dies at some stage, but where that living thing goes (including us) only God (pardon the pun) knows and we will ALL find out sooner than later, regardless of what denomination we all are, weather it`s Athiest, Christian, Muslim,Bhudist - it doesnt matter, well find out soon enough to see if we have picked the right one - hope not to many are dissapointed.
      Einstein said that once energy is created it keeps going, what happens to all those electrical impulses that makes us up,  go? - Back into the earth?, magnetic field of our planet?, heaven? the either? - I`ll find out soon enough, but because life is short enough already, I`m hangin` on for as long as I can before I get there.

      Peace be your final journey.

    • Amber says:

      01:07pm | 29/12/10

      I almost despise the word ‘‘religion’’ as it has so many bad connotations.  I think everyone should live the best life they can and let eternity take care of itself. I don’t believe there is a self-serving , sycophantic God who will ‘‘let you in’‘, if you have paid daily homage to him, but rather ‘‘loved thy neighbour’’ as thyself. I believe that Christianity, at least,  is all about that and one should try to follow that philosophy rather than dwell on whether one has enough ‘‘points’’ to enter paradise.  In fact, if everyone followed that philosophy, we would already be in paradise and maybe it is already here for the taking rather than when we die. Don’t know for sure.

    • Ashley says:

      12:57pm | 29/12/10

      Here are two definitions from non-believers as to what heavan is.

      “looking at the Glory of God for all Eternity”

      “God (or whatever) removes our brains and turns
      us into some sort of lobotomised spiritual being
      happy to just gaze adoringly in His face”

      Can some Christians give their definitions

    • Rev Lovejoy says:

      06:36pm | 29/12/10

      Heaven is paradise. No pain, poverty and all egalitarian.

    • Steve Kryger says:

      12:56pm | 29/12/10

      Some very interesting responses! Thanks to all who have contributed to the conversation.

      A common refrain seems to be “there’s nothing beyond the grave, and even if there is, we can’t know. So stop being paralysed by a fear of death, and just live for now”.

      For example, @Melot said:

      “Why spend time worrying about what happens after you die, why not devote your efforts to trying to make life better for everyone now?”

      As a Christian I am not huddled in a corner, waiting to die! I agree with what some of you have said - there is much joy in this life, and that there is a lot to love about living, particularly in Australia. The Bible doesn’t suggest we should pursue a miserable existence, after all, Jesus himself said that he came that we might have life, and have it to the full. Jesus is a life-giver, not a life-paralyser. I assure you, I spend no time at all worrying about what happens after I die.

      I would also contend that thinking about the future needn’t paralyse us in the present, in the same way that planning for retirement doesn’t stop us living our lives right now. But simply living for ‘now’, and giving no consideration for the future, is just poor planning. Hoping that we won’t need a superannuation fund doesn’t make that hope a reality.

      If there is nothing beyond the grave, if Jesus was never resurrected from the dead, then, as the Bible says, Christians are of all people most to be pitied. I’m sure this will strike a note with some of you! To see this in context, you might like to read 1 Corinthians 15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+15&version=NIV).

      But the question is - is there anything more? Obviously I believe that there is, and that Jesus both taught and demonstrated this. Obviously many of the commenters at least (not necessarily representative of the readers as a whole!) believe that there isn’t.

      But if there’s even the smallest of chances that there is something more, it’s got to be worth investigating, if only for the possibility that our experience of the ‘more’ is impacted by our response in the ‘now’.

      While many of the comments have revolved around what I believe and why you disagree with this (not at all unexpected!), I again encourage you to consider what evidence you have for what you believe. You may disagree with what gives me confidence - and that’s ok. But simply suggesting we should just narrow our focus to the here and now, or that the idea of an afterlife is ludicrous, or that our final destiny can be whatever we want it to be, might be convenient, but it’s not necessarily true.

    • Peter says:

      05:43pm | 29/12/10

      Steve you pose some interesting points, and shown respect for differing beliefs which is commendable. I can say I used to believe in an afterlife…. I wanted to believe in it as death scared the crap out of me and the belief was reassuring at the time, later I even had theories that God could be alien and when you die the “Tunnel of light” was your “soul”(Consciousness) being transported through a wormhole to “Heaven” being some awesome planet with nice people and Aliens (or us being descendants of the original species or something. Ok some may go “That’s crazy” and others might be contemplating it thinking it could be plausible if far fetched. I abandoned religion as I believed I was spiritual not religious as the later has many bad associations (Crusades comes to mind and the religious cited wars in the middle east), to me I was spiritual, I believed in God but to me God is the sum of everything which is… the universe and beyond, not some “Being”.

      This is why I think a lot of the philopsies of religion ring true, if you replace the word “God” with “Universe” everything then begins to make a lot more sense, it just “clicks”.

      From there I watched a documentry about religon by Richard Dawkins, and that was what made the final click as this puzzle had the last piece fall into place for me.

      So now I believe what I know, as that is all I know I can believe.

    • Tedd says:

      01:45pm | 29/12/10

      Belief is just unsubstantiated opinion, often with anecdotes purported to be evidence.

      What is worth investigating is the development of the canon from a myriad of texts, many of the early mystical ones being deemed apocryphal by the “winners”, despite Paul’s epistles being as mystical as them.

    • Andrew says:

      01:39pm | 29/12/10

      Rather than evidence for what I believe, I am more concerned with lack of evidence justifying my refraining from believing (e.g., I lack a belief in God, because there is no more good evidence for believing than there is for believing in fairies).

    • Jimmy says:

      12:52pm | 29/12/10

      Steve, you obviously have a lage cirle of “believer” friends if you didn’t find many atheists to talk to. You can ponder, worry, pray, discuss, fear or disseminate upon the question but it won’t make one ounce of difference. We get one life. That’s it. Deal with it.

    • Chris Tyack says:

      12:51pm | 29/12/10

      I always find it amazing that people with conservative protestant beliefs think they represent ‘the Christian message’ or ‘the Bible’ (which is ‘very clear’ and an ‘authority’). 

      For instance, the idea that Jesus came “to provide forgiveness for our sins”  is just evangelical-speak.  I might just as well say that Jesus came to restore the interior and social dimensions of religion in a climate where it had become external, formalistic and exclusive. 

      The idea that one goes to heaven if one ‘trusts in Jesus’ is also evangelical-ese.  How about going to heaven on the basis of one’s treatment of the poor and those who suffer, as Matthew 25 plainly says?

      Also, the idea that heaven and hell are actual ‘places’ is now highly conservative and is rejected in many 20th century theologies. Rather they are symbols representing alienation from or closeness to the divine life. So my advice to you is: read some mainstream systematic theology.

      My own view about death is that the human person will rejoin the intellective world; this exposure to truth will be both a judgment and a liberation.

    • Reg says:

      02:17pm | 29/12/10

      So you’re just re-jigging the view of Christianity Chris? Painting different images for the same thing but more suited to the sophistication of modern Christianity? I’m a bit worried about your last paragraph. Are you suggesting there is a non-“human person” or are you referring to heavenly bodies? Now since they have apparently “left” the “interlective world if they are going to rejoin it, we are clearly not speaking of human persons. Truth is always liberating.

    • Clare says:

      01:32pm | 29/12/10

      I like the way you think Chris!

    • Mitch says:

      12:51pm | 29/12/10

      Nice editorial, Blaise.

    • Moggy says:

      12:41pm | 29/12/10

      Reigion!! It’s ALL about the money folks!  The money!! How else are these poncy ministers & bishops & popes going to pay for their fancy outfits. Talk about a bunch of mincing nancy-boys!!

    • MATTJ says:

      12:35pm | 29/12/10

      I’m a little more concerned that some really, really large scientist in some humongous lab somewhere is about to scrape experiment XV1-3 AKA EARTH into his cacophonous garbage bin, then scribble “fail” in his notebook (really big notebook).

      Nuff said.

    • MelD says:

      02:36pm | 29/12/10

      or it’s a wager with another large scientist to see which one’s “people” can destroy their world faster or see how quickly they advance, somewhere out there is another “Earth” that didn’t have the dark ages and is already populating space around it and then there is us…..FAIL

    • Dot says:

      12:32pm | 29/12/10

      My kids told me about two of their school friends (brothers) whose mother died of cancer when they were very small. Their father used to say “I want to meet God and when I do I am going to punch him on the nose!” That poor man has since died and I hope he got his opportunity to punch God on the nose and I hope he gave him/her another punch for me! What leads me to disbelieve in a caring God who is going take any or all of us into heaven is the mess this world is in. I do not buy the story that we are here as a learning experience to prepare us for the better life in the great beyond. If any sentient being is responsible for the cruelty of this world then they are not worthy of being worshiped as a god. What sort of “heaven” would be created by this individual - it does not give me much confidence that it would be a place I would be happy in. Heaven needs to be different for every person - who is going to be happy to spend eternity singing with the angels ? Not too many people I suspect!

    • Troy Flynn says:

      03:27pm | 29/12/10

      I agree Brett, a perfect example of this, of which I was only made aware of last weekend, is the Crocoduck Awards. These are awards given out to people who profess to be christians but willfully break the 9th commandment (thou shalt not lie), to fabricate “evidence” of the existance of God. Kirk Cameron (Growing Pains star) was the instigator of this award for his attempt to use the example of the non-existance of a Crockoduck as proof of God’s existance. Check it out on Youtube, hillarious.

    • Brett says:

      02:01pm | 29/12/10

      You’re in luck Dot. Here is not just a learning experience for the afterlife, that is retarded drivel fed to people by such institutions as the catholic church who stopped refering to the bible years ago. The bible itself says nothing along those lines. Its Christianity at large that has it wrong as they no longer look into their own holy text but just make up dead end philosophies.

    • Joan of Adel says:

      12:25pm | 29/12/10

      “a belief in God, a conviction in the goodness of humanity, and the unfounded hope of a happy ending”. And we’re meant to take someone seriously after hearing that??  Whether or not a person can prove/disprove the existence of a supernatural deity, the fact ANYONE can believe in the goodness of humanity, beggars belief.  Clearly, reality is not a comfortable place for many.  Suggest going home and living with your parents until you can face it.

    • MrMac says:

      01:37pm | 29/12/10

      Humanity is overall good, Joan, and it is getting better at being good.

    • Andrew says:

      12:08pm | 29/12/10

      You become a Labor Minister in the NSW Government.

    • Clare says:

      12:08pm | 29/12/10

      I’ll respond in a different way. Having been close to a family member when they died, there was a definite ‘shift’....the body was empty, nothing was there anymore. The person had left. Do they go anywhere? I am not sure. If they do, do they have the same sense of individual consciousness? I don’t know. i suspect that something goes on in some way….we build up knowledge from our learning and experiences. Does it all just disappear apart from books written or paintings painted, or genes passed on to offspring? I am sure that we are more than just bodies, but in this existence we are inextricably linked to those bodies. So when we detach from them, we ‘become’ some thing else. I doubt that has anything to do with whether we believe in one sort of incarnated redeemer or not….

    • Gregg says:

      12:02pm | 29/12/10

      Catching taxis is a long time between for me, the local freebie to the local and then an airport bound pick-up where a TD was scavenging for a few passengers outside Southern X when business was quiet so that was cheaper than the Airbus and so no Muslim, Jewish or other insights.

      But right now the thought that came to mind this morning on taking a last breath in being flood bound when papers have not been delivered since Saturday and the Bakery is going gangbusters until they run out of flour etc. is what happens in this situation with no local hospital if you do die!
      And roads do not look like being open anytime too soon either.

      Do the various rural ambo stations keep temporary morges like as in a cold room or I wonder whether they just have an oversize esky and keep the local ice man busy.
      And even though it has been cooler the last week or so, there’d be plenty of ice needed in tropical conditions.

      It’s not a nice image and I reckon any new/old/released spirit is not going to be viewing the situation with too much pleasure either but then what the hell will we have to be concerned about and certainly will not have to dwell on doing the next or any overdue taxation returns.

    • Reg says:

      01:54pm | 29/12/10

      Even more to the point will I have to endure all my ex-wives in heaven or hell and does that include all the women I’ve made love to and if so, will their ex-husbands and real husbands be there and should I take some form of defense or will all the various places of disputed territory be mine to have and to hold forever and if not why not?

    • Clovis says:

      12:01pm | 29/12/10

      Like CS Lewis, you base your thinking on the premise that there is a god and an afterlife… Somewhat shaky basis for action I’d say.  There’s a whole bunch of academics and theologists who label themselves ‘Progressive Christians’ who think all this afterlife and anthropomorphic god judgement stuff is a load of codswallop. So do I. when we die we join every other organic thing in decay, and thus provide the mulch to sustain further life. In that way are we eternal.

    • Prince Caspian Jr says:

      11:51am | 29/12/10

      I am happy for all those athiests to believe that when you die that is it! Let me believe that when I die there is hope in an afterlife. To quote C.S. Lewis from his Narnia series; “Suppose… suppose we have only dreamed and made up these things like sun, sky, stars, and moon, and Aslan himself. In that case, it seems to me that the made-up things are a good deal better than the real ones. And if this black pit of a kingdom is the best you can make, then it’s a poor world. And we four can make a dream world to lick your real one hollow.”

    • Melot says:

      11:49am | 29/12/10

      Why spend time worrying about what happens after you die, why not devote your efforts to trying to make life better for everyone now?

      And you need to get out a bit, there are a hell of a lot of atheists (and agnostics) out here - and we’re increasing in number.

    • Peter says:

      11:47am | 29/12/10

      As far as going to heaven is concerned from all I learned from my parents who are both ministers: The only requirement in religion is to believe in “God” it doesn’t matter if your good or bad (after all he forgives all sins if you ask, and for you to ask you must believe), In fact you may not have asked forgiveness but still believe and that still qualifies you.
      Think about that… and ask yourself if that seems right? seems like if God does exist then he has a pretty big ego “I don’t care if your a murderer or rapist…. so long as you believe in ME you can go to a happy place!!”.

    • Brett says:

      11:45am | 29/12/10

      Steve, hate to tell you, but the bible doesn’t say good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. Even the pope admitted this.

      The bible does however say that the dead are dead and know nothing at all (Ecclesiastes 9:5). The idea of hell cannot be reconciled with a God of love. And if all good people go to heaven, where did Moses and Abraham go? Heaven? No they can’t have as Jesus said that no one has gone to heaven before him. So even John the baptiser who Jesus himself said was the greatest man to have lived, is not and was not in heaven.

      You may want to go read that bible and understand it before you tell everyone what it says. Its worse than me telling everyone the Davinci Code is factual and is about time travelling monks defeating dinosaurs on the vatican doorstep while the pope has a nun orgy… that just didn’t happen in the book now did it.

    • Lindsay Anlezark says:

      11:42am | 29/12/10

      (John 11:11-14) says Lazarus is dead. Then in (John 11:11-44 )  It states And he (Lazarus) that was dead came forth.
      There is the proof that there can be afterlife and it matters not if one is a Christian as long as they believe in God

    • MelD says:

      01:50pm | 29/12/10

      religious passages that were INTERPRETED by the church are not proof of anything except an overactive imagination

    • jamie says:

      12:32pm | 29/12/10

      Religion is the floored means for humans finding comfort in the unknown and seeking place in a wider community. The bible (and others) is no truer or falser than say the lord of the rings, it is just a story that has been told for many thousands of years more.

      Human ancestry shows the existence of storytelling as a means for explaining the unknown since the beginning of human kind.

      The biggest floor of religion, like any group or followings or beliefs, is that it creates segregation and tension. If we were all atheists, there would be no bombings in the name of Allah, persecution in the fight for the holy land, segregation in the belief of entitlement and betterment or any other religiously just conflicts.

      As one of the oldest stories told over many thousands of years, religion has become the back bone of morals, beliefs, culture and law and with It has the best and worst aspects of this world have been shaped.

    • Monty Freeman says:

      12:07pm | 29/12/10

      The Bible is proof? Of what? The power of fiction?

    • Happy_Cynic says:

      11:40am | 29/12/10

      Meh you’re all wrong smile

      The afterlife exists in that we can think there might be one while we’re alive.  Because the thought or idea of an afterlife exists, it exists. 

      Is there physically an afterlife beyond the philosophical musings with taxi drivers?  Probably not in my opinion but I think it isn’t a question that can be answered either way until we’ve experienced death and not any of those bullsh*t near-death experiences either, but actual permanent, irreversible death. 

      Just hedge your bets.  Live how you want to and when it comes time to die, gather a priest, rabbi, imam etc until you’ve got all your bases covered with holy men from all the religions of the world and get them all to absolve you on your deathbed.  If there’s no afterlife, no harm, no foul, and if there is you’ll have to have gotten one of them right smile

      Of course if you have those annoying things called principles (aka arrogance and pride) this might not sit well with you.

    • Matto says:

      11:39am | 29/12/10

      Can all you people remember back to before you were born? That will be what death is like - nothing. No thoughts, memories, emotion, pain. Just nothing.

    • thepeeb says:

      11:31am | 29/12/10

      I’m not into religion but I still believe there’s more. To the “there’s no proof so there must be nothing” crew, I recommend a book called ‘Adventures Beyond the Body’ by a guy named Buhlman… fascinating read no matter what you believe! Sheds some light on the no proof argument and also on the childishness of many modern day religious beliefs.

    • Tim says:

      11:29am | 29/12/10

      I believe consciousness exists, but out DNA controls our thoughts and actions. The consciousness just see’s. But has no control over our lives. Life i think could just be cause and effect, everything could predictable. Then there is the idea that planets effect our thoughts. So after life could just be consciousness like watching a movie.

    • Margaret says:

      11:14am | 29/12/10

      Very well written article ,  Steve ,  evenly balanced between light-hearted and serious , about a subject upon which we as a nation , do not like to ” intrude ” , cos , it is fairly confronting ......BUT , an experience which is TOTALLY unavoidable for every human being .....

      My belief is that there most assuredly IS an afterlife and am trying , in my imperfect way , to do my utmost to attain Heaven as my final address.

      Trying to live as ’ good ’ a life as possible , helping our fellow man , shying away from all that we KNOW to be evil , a VERY unpopular word in the society of today , always acknowledging the presence of God and Jesus in our lives and giving thanks for our blessings are normal things we need to do ......nothing onerous about any of that .....working honestly , playing fairly , respecting persons and properties , which were ALL at one time , a perfectly NORMAL moral code but the wheel seems to have fallen off in this last 30 years .....if we stay on the right track , mate , we WILL get there ..........God blessings to you ...

    • Brian says:

      11:09am | 29/12/10

      They’re an interesting phenomena, these cheesy articles by christians on opinion sites.  They work for everyone, I suppose. 

      The christian writers get points from their fellow believers (and employer in this case) for spreading the word.  They also get kudos for submitting themselves for persecution by the commenters.  The articles probably appeal to some christian readers, too.

      The majority of readers who, from the comments, are non-believers, get to express their intellectual indignation that christians should peddle such nonsense.

      The editorsget to cultivate a new market among the growing band of outspoken atheists and at the same time maintain an appeal to a christian readership (and perhaps also placate a christian boss).

      They’re a win-win-win-win situation - a modern version of throwing christians to the lions, perhaps.

    • Troy Flynn says:

      12:26pm | 29/12/10

      No Brian, the modern version of throwing christians to lions is the disgusting yet inexplicably popular psuedo sport of UFC better known as cage fighting.

    • dale thompson says:

      11:07am | 29/12/10

      Australia is about 2-3% Aboriginal. but there are 19% atheist in Australia, Few and Far Between??? i Dont think so, and this number keeps growing every year,

      im happy to listen to what people think about death, its pretty funny some times as some people think it wont happen to them lol

    • Jayne says:

      11:04am | 29/12/10

      Sometimes I envy people with faith, who believe there is an afterlife because no doubt that is a very comforting thought.

      But as I’m not a religious person I find it very difficult to believe we are more than just biological.

      Sometimes this cripples me with fear, that one day I will just cease to exist and I’ll never lay my eyes on the people I love ever again. But at other times it pushes me to enjoy and savour every minute I have, and to leave my big Jayne shaped mark on the world. Why bother thinking about what will happen after you die? You’ll never know until it happens so just enjoy what you have now.

    • Grant says:

      10:58am | 29/12/10

      The utter debilitating fear of death has driven some of us to create a paranormal afterlife where you are immortal and some type of heaven, and its so great, you get to hangout with your friends and family forever.

      Seriously… all you religious guys are weirdo’s.

      Deep down you know the truth, which is; there is nothing once you die and your consciousness simply ceases to exist.

      Don’t be afraid, you should embrace it…

    • Emma says:

      10:57am | 29/12/10

      No one knows for sure what happens. Christians think that their way is the only way just as Muslims think that their way is the only way (meaning the majority of the earths population will not experience ‘heaven’ when they die… yeah, nice one god!). Me personally, I just like to think its another journey. There is no ‘heaven’ or ‘hell’, just another plane of existence. Am I afraid? No. Why? Because I dont believe that some god is shaking his finger at me, threatening me with eternal damnation for not behaving. I am confident in myself and the life that I am living and I am confident that if I move on, it will be with love and joy and if all I do is cease to exist, it will be done knowing I have given this life a good shot.

      All I know is that if all of the hard core religious nuts are in heaven, I dont want to be there and if all hell is, is ‘existing without god’ then I am fine with that too because hey, technically I am experiencing ‘hell’ now as I am living my life without the ‘presence’ of any god… and its really not bad!

    • Jimmy says:

      10:52am | 29/12/10

      How did the universe come into existence? How did the two “big bang” stars come into existence and were made to move in space? I can accept that today, science and evidence surround all of us to explain scientifically with evidence how the world and universe around us works. But how did the very first atoms and stars (that led to big bang) come into existence and who gave it the forces to move and collide? Was science designed to provide the amazing systems in place we have today? How did science and math come about?

    • jamie says:

      07:56pm | 29/12/10

      I can answer your last question, logic and rational thinking. As to the rest of it, considering we don’t have an answer why not make assumptions!

      Jimmy the bible was the worlds answer to comfort in the unknown at the time it was written. If it was written today, it would be very different but with one similarity: the same preconception of a greater being to provide an irrational and unjustified explanation of the unknown.

    • Einstein Not says:

      11:58am | 29/12/10

      “How did the two “big bang” stars come into existence” - They Didn’t Jimmy. The Universe we know started from a “primeval atom”....that’s even harder to get your head around!

    • Not an Atheist says:

      10:47am | 29/12/10

      To paraphrase, “IF there is something after death, THEN you’re better off preparing for it than not preparing for it.” Uh-oh, sounds remarkably like a watered down version of Pascal’s Wager. “The bible says” is not enough, I am afraid. There are hundreds of gods, I just believe in one less than you.

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      07:09pm | 29/12/10

      Peter, you failed to mention which leg to stand on each morning. 

      Here’s me, doing my best each morning and then- awww man, wrong leg, ... I’m going to pay for this in the after life.

      Are ultimatums and ambiguity purely a religious thing?

    • Peter says:

      11:17am | 29/12/10

      Yeah it’s like saying that if you don’t stand on one leg for 5 minutes in the morning on your front yard while yelling “I BELIEVE” then you will get run over by my gang in a car.

      Now that could be bullshit, but you better prepare for it just in case…. Same thinking, different variables.

    • Miss Bessie Briggs. says:

      10:37am | 29/12/10

      I was reared by a fanatical Christian mother who used to beat the love of god intp us with a leather strap.. Our church was filled with supposed Christians. When it was discovered that the minister was sexually abusing some of the little children the minister was quickly shuffled off to a new town. The children were sternly told to keep their mouths shut, as were the parents. My argument here is this: If that church was, as is claimed, god’s temple, & all the people were forgiven their sins, how did this happen? We were taught that god is perfect, so how is it that a church can have imperfection in it?? Surely the “owner” of that church…god….would make sure that his/her/it’s flock were perfect as well. So to my mind churches are imperfect & yet is “owned” by perfection which is impossible. AS for me, I haven’t set foot in a church in years because I complained to the Minister that one of the “elders” was harrassing me to have sex with him. The minister drummed ME out of the church. The mans wife was also harrassing me by ringing me up & screaming at me to leave her husband alone. Finally I called the police & after that I never saw that “perfect Christian man” again. There is no god. There is no paradise. There is no salvation. We live our life, rear our kids & then we grow old & die.  The meaning of life is procreation…..the survival of the species. But if you wish to believe in some invisable place called heaven, well that’s your perfect right. As for me, I simply cannot fathom why any so called creator god would create everything then disappear from the scene but expect us to grovel to him/her/it!! It makes no sense what-so-ever, I now wait for the abuse to start from those who are involved in this massive con.

    • True Believer says:

      11:15am | 30/12/10

      @Tedd:

      I stand by what I said. The Bible warns there will be wolves in sheep’s clothing infiltrating His flock and that is exactly what these pretenders are. They are not followers of Jesus, the only thing that makes a Christian who were are.  If they were the Holy Spirit would be bringing them under the conviction of their sin. I realise this is probably not something you can understand or appreciate, but that is no reason to contradict someone who has more knowledge about what consitutes a Christian than you do.

      @Elphaba:

      I agree with you again. Organised Christianity often leaves much to be desired at best and at worst as with the poor lady in these posts causes incredible cruel damage.

      I know I am even clumsy in my attempts to correct some of the misconceptions about my Lord which I see in these posts. We all let Him down, but it is not out of a desire to hurt or cause harm when we love Him who saved us. It is a desire to ensure people know there is more and to share that. I am so glad someone did that with me.  I had no idea what I was missing out on. Now I look back and shudder at where I was.  But where I am now is nothing of me, just by His grace and His grace alone.

    • Elphaba says:

      07:58am | 30/12/10

      @TB, that’s like anything - when any message is distorted by people with an agenda to push, the message suffers.  I think you’ll find most people don’t disagree with the messages that Christianity tries to instill, they object to the delivery.

    • True Believer says:

      10:41pm | 29/12/10

      Elphaba:

      Yes so often people get the two things confused and judge spiritual matters through the eyes of religion.  I know it can be confusing, but often “religion” and its practices, rules, etc etc cloud the issue.

    • Elphaba says:

      05:56pm | 29/12/10

      @TB - agree with you there.  Religion and spirituality are 2 different things.

    • True Believer says:

      04:52pm | 29/12/10

      Miss Bessie Briggs:

      You overlooked the fact I was not supporting religion - religions in the main are man-made and the Christian church has it full share of pretenders in there for control and their own ends.  Most things where mankind tries to impose its will ends up a mess. Even the planet is suffering as a result.

      I said Jesus is not religion, religion is not Jesus. He is a person whom I know personally. You wish to reject Him, your choice of course, choice is a God given gift.

      Having previously been an atheist for probably more years than you have been on the planet Richard Dawkins has zero to offer me - his is the delusion.

      I wish you well.

    • Tedd says:

      01:00pm | 29/12/10

      True Believer says: 11:19am | 29/12/10

      “... they are not Christians and they do not follow God.”

      The “not-a-true-Scotsman” fallacy manifest as the notion of not-a-true-Christian.

      There is good and bad in all groupings, regardless of attempts to re-define some of the groups members

    • Miss Bessie Briggs. says:

      12:30pm | 29/12/10

      True Believer:  I want nothing to do with religion. It’s ALL fairytales, including the bible which was cobbled together by a bunch of men intent on having great power.
      AND it was cobbled together at least 150 years after Jesus died…or so we’re led to believe because in fact there’s not a lot of PROOF that Jesus even existed. Most religion world wide these days is male dominant, & women are supressed to the point that their importance dwells somewhere between the goats & the saucepans.
      As a child my fanatically religious mother used to whip the love of jesus into us with a thick, doubled over leather strap. AS teenagers it was alright for the boys to go out & have sex before marriage because it was called “sowing wild oats” but the girls were called sluts & if they got pregnant…...??they were sent away to the city to have their baby taken from them. There was & still is blatant hypocracy in ALL religions. If any religion on earth truly belonged to this perfect god you worship it would be impossible for it’s adherents to be imperfect. Perfection cannot have any imperfection. So please do not patronise me with all your religious fervour. It means nothing to me anymore. Read Richard Dawkins books. It will open your eyes to the reality of all this manmade gobbledygook!!

    • True Believer says:

      11:19am | 29/12/10

      @Miss Bessie Briggs

      My heart goes out to you that you had to endure such cruelty done in the name of Jesus. Unfortunately in churches there are true believers and there are pretenders. Paedophiles creep in wherever there are children, be it church, youth movements, schools, scouting - they are not Christians and they do not follow God. They are evil, sadly often the victims of abuse themselves as children.

      I hope one day you will reach out to find that He who you feel rejected you was Himself rejected and treated most cruelly by men of religion.
      He endured that for me, for you, for all who write here that we may be reconciled with God the Father.

      Jesus is not religion and religion is not Jesus.  Do not let man-made appalling behaviour blind you to His Truth. He loves you. I pray you will be healed of these terrible experiences, but remember,  it was man that did that to you, not Jesus.

    • True Believer says:

      11:19am | 29/12/10

      @Miss Bessie Briggs

      My heart goes out to you that you had to endure such cruelty done in the name of Jesus. Unfortunately in churches there are true believers and there are pretenders. Paedophiles creep in wherever there are children, be it church, youth movements, schools, scouting - they are not Christians and they do not follow God. They are evil, sadly often the victims of abuse themselves as children.

      I hope one day you will reach out to find that He who you feel rejected you was Himself rejected and treated most cruelly by men of religion.
      He endured that for me, for you, for all who write here that we may be reconciled with God the Father.

      Jesus is not religion and religion is not Jesus.  Do not let man-made appalling behaviour blind you to His Truth. He loves you. I pray you will be healed of these terrible experiences, but remember,  it was man that did that to you, not Jesus.

    • Scarneck says:

      10:36am | 29/12/10

      I know where I’m heading once I’m dead…ashes to ashes, dust to dust. As John Lennon sang “Imagine there’s no heaven, It’s easy if you try, no hell below us, above us only sky”

    • Anthony says:

      02:33pm | 02/01/11

      I presume that the irony in you broadly quoting scripture (the reference to ashes and dust) was intended?

    • mary says:

      10:35am | 29/12/10

      Steve wrote an article as unprovocative as it gets and yet the atheists .. ouch. Where are atheists hurting so much that they must be even bashing the simple thought of an afterlife? If not for you personally, then why not allow others?

      Beauty as always, in the eye of the beholder.

    • Chris L says:

      03:05pm | 29/12/10

      A good christian would call an ambulance for poor Steve after such a “bashing”.

      Perhaps you should try being a little less fragile.

    • Elphaba says:

      01:27pm | 29/12/10

      @mary, I’m not bashing.  The Punch is an opinion blog.  My opinion is that there is no afterlife.  It differs to yours.

      It would be like me saying all the Christians on here are ultra sensitive.  Some are, but not all - don’t you think?

    • MrMac says:

      12:54pm | 29/12/10

      atheist aren’t hurting per se, mary, other than by misinformation.  To say atheists are hurting or bashing or both is fallacy ‘appeal to personal interest’, and its related fallacies such as the ‘ad misericordiam’ fallacy (appeal to pity).

    • Melissa says:

      10:31am | 29/12/10

      I can understand how the bible is considered an irrelevant historical document by a large percentage of people. And if it is irrelevant historically, then ‘the message’ in it means nothing also.
      However I would challenge those with intelligent minds to research the bible for themselves, compare archeology and other historical documents with the bibles records.  Go on earnestly and honestly prove it wrong, what do you have to fear?

    • True Believer says:

      11:05am | 30/12/10

      @Jason Todd:

      My comment was not a reflection on you as being belligerent in any way. It is admirable you have at least read the Bible.  I was merely passing on my own experience, I tried many times to read it before meeting the Author and as you too found, it makes little sense. I met the Author, then the Holy Spirit opened my spiritual eyes to what it meant and the fact that whilst many people may have written down what they were told by Him over many centuries, God is indeed the only Author.  When you read it with His help it makes incredible sense.

      I did not mean to offend you, I assure you.

    • Jason Todd says:

      07:05am | 30/12/10

      TB, Given that it is commonly held that the Bible is the work of many different authors (all of whom have long since expired), written in many different locations and across different time periods, I think I will find it hard to complete your request.
      Unless of course you are implying that God himself penned the Bible under a series of different pen names?
      All jokes aside, I have read the bible (NIV and KJV) and looked at it critically. To me, if reading it as the infallible word of god as written by Him, it is unimpressive, contradictory, rambling and all over the shop. If you read it as the work of an ancient collection of writers, inspired by their beliefs then it makes a lot more sense.
      I’ll reiterate. I can’t fault you your faith. But your suggestion that I am somehow belligerently refusing to accept a self evident “truth” out of sheer naivety while failing to consider the evidence is both condescending and mildly insulting.

    • True Believer says:

      04:44pm | 29/12/10

      Jason Todd:The bible serves a purpose as a book of parables and fables. It is a useful discussion piece, but to call it the infallible word of god? I am going to need more convincing.”

      Could I suggest in all seriousness, you try reading it with the help of the Author - He is there waiting for you to ask Him.  “You have not because you ask not”.

    • Jason Todd says:

      12:48pm | 29/12/10

      Melissa; Don’t fall into the trap of thinking that those who reject the Bible did not give it a fair assessment. I have done the research you suggest, and looked into what does and doesn’t line up with the bible’s account of history. Having said that, I don’t doubt that some of what is included in the bible is based on real events, the way that all good fiction draws on reality to some extent, but to suggest that because some of the details are supported that ALL of the details are supported is not productive. To make such a claim is comparable to saying that because “The Da Vinci Code” references real people, things and events, that all the people and events in the narrative are true.

      The bible serves a purpose as a book of parables and fables. It is a useful discussion piece, but to call it the infallible word of god? I am going to need more convincing.

    • Brian says:

      11:53am | 29/12/10

      Melissa
      I’d love to hear of a piece of archeological evidence that supports the occurance of an event described in the bible of significance to Christian or Jewish beliefs about god or Jesus - not just the existence of places or non-Jewish/Christian characters (like Pilate) referred to in the bible, an event.  Please don’t just direct me to an apologetics website.

    • Guru D says:

      10:30am | 29/12/10

      Your comment:I could tell you all , but you won’t beleive me or listen or even do the research. But here’s the facts: You CAN KNOW what happens. This is called GNOSIS. It can be achieved through various means including shamanistic activities - the ingestion of any SOMA. Consciousness is a function of time. Once you stop time you stop consciousness. - then you have gnosis. And then you will go “Ahah! Of Course now I remember”

    • A Bob says:

      03:22pm | 29/12/10

      This is brilliant. Can you come around to my place and help me find my lost socks?

    • Atheist67 says:

      10:22am | 29/12/10

      The after life is a delusion invented by humans to enable them to cope with the grief and anxiety arising from the inevitible oblivion that is death.

      The weak will I presume cling to these beliefs no matter what science says and that is part of being human. It takes courage to face the truth that we return to the same nothingness from which we emerged.

    • Peter says:

      11:29am | 29/12/10

      An excellent point:  “It takes courage to face the truth that we return to the same nothingness from which we emerged”

    • Prince says:

      11:15am | 29/12/10

      Yes - the afterlife notion has gained significant traction with humans as it plays to one of our major frailties - we all like to think we are special snowflakes who deserve immortality…

    • Jack Ranald says:

      10:17am | 29/12/10

      Steve, you find it disturbing that there is, according to you, a “massive disconnect between the gravity of the question - where will you be after you die - and the passing consideration most Australians give to it.”

      I find it disturbing that you seem to spend so much time worrying about an “afterlife”.

    • Andrew says:

      10:17am | 29/12/10

      I wonder what the evidence for God, the afterlife etc we all long for would look like? What would evidence of the existence of a human seem like to an ant (apparently they have poor vision). Could I explain the Internet to one?

      As an engineer/designer/project manager, I see very little in the built environment that does not reflect considerable design, intent, planning and process. Not much we applaud occurs by chance. And then I look at the natural world, at the human body, at life itself and speculate that what we do and create pales in comparison, both in complexity and beauty to it.

      To affirm there is nothing else, nothing bigger, nothing intelligent, nothing after….because we can’t see evidence for it….seems to me as short sighted as an ant.

    • Reg says:

      01:43pm | 29/12/10

      Very slowly.

    • A Bob says:

      01:15pm | 29/12/10

      Do ants go to heaven?

    • JulesG says:

      10:13am | 29/12/10

      I reckon this afterlife nonsense is just wishful thinking - There has to be something more. No there doesn’t. Who says? The non atheists on this post are all saying there must be something more because they want there to be and for no other reason.

      God and heaven is just a man made construct to explain the inexplicable and to the less informed among us, it is a mechanism of controlling the masses by instilling a sense of fear and foreboding of what might be if they don’t conform to the power brokers wishes. It’s clap trap; we are born, we live, we die.

      A better handle on this question of what happens when we die can be got by thinking on the meaning of life. The meaning of life is life itself and its only purpose is to propagate more life and that’s it, pure and simple. In that context it simplifies the above question enormously.
      I can see you non atheists saying that I must be very unhappy with such a jaundiced point of view. On the contrary, I am very happy and have no need of constructs, fairy tales or other religions to get along. I do have one belief though and I will leave it with you to ponder. The fact that we are experiencing this life and that it is real and irrefutable; does it preclude us from experiencing another life at another time? This is another question entirely.

    • Grace Rey says:

      10:10am | 29/12/10

      What happens to the soul of a person who has never heard of Christianity and therefore have not practised the Christian way of life in the way the Bible has described?

    • Jess says:

      08:05pm | 01/01/11

      “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities have been clearly seen, being understood from creation around us, so that people are without excuse.”

      ie, anybody can look around and say,  “This world is exquisite - there must be a God”.
      If the heart is seeking, no matter how little the information, then they are one of Gods children.

      But for those who DO have the information (ie the gospel), there is no excuse.

    • Kristie says:

      10:08am | 29/12/10

      Has anyone experienced ‘after death’ visitations from loved ones? There’s your evidence, folks, that heaven is real. Open your heart and your mind to the possibility.My uncle passed away a few years ago. About a week or so after he died I had a dream - he was talking to me, and he said “I’m fine.” No one will ever change my belief that there is a heaven. There are some things that we don’t need to prove or disprove - we can just “know” that exists.

    • MelD says:

      02:19pm | 29/12/10

      I had a dream I was babysitting and the floor turned to lava

    • Seano says:

      11:07am | 29/12/10

      I once dreamed I was fighting a zombie army single handedly, it didn’t mean anything.

      You can’t “know” anything exists without evidence.

    • Ben says:

      11:01am | 29/12/10

      I saw a movie about assassination last night, then I dreamed I was in it. Nobody can convince me that I’m not an assassin now!

    • Wayne Kerr says:

      10:50am | 29/12/10

      Kristie, with all due respect, how do you know that dream just wasn’t a visualisation of your sub conscious thoughts just hoping that there was a heaven and your uncle was ok up there?

    • Jess says:

      10:04am | 29/12/10

      How very sad so many of these comments are.
      Talk about ostriches!!

      Great article Steve. Very balanced and well put. I appreciated the prod and that you presented your belief without shoving it down peoples throat.

      Everyone else - stop getting snotty and THINK ABOUT IT!!

    • Jess says:

      08:08pm | 01/01/11

      If thats all you can pick on I must be on the right track!

      Unfortunately, I dont have a bold or italic option to emphasise what I want to say firmly.

    • MrMac says:

      10:43am | 29/12/10

      most do think about it, and rationalise, which is why more don’t believe.

      no need to shout, either.

    • MelD says:

      10:39am | 29/12/10

      I have, as I said above I am most likely going to ‘Hell’ but it should be a lot more fun than ‘Heaven’

    • Elphaba says:

      10:23am | 29/12/10

      Shouting at people to not get snotty doesn’t help your cause.

    • Diane Williamson says:

      10:00am | 29/12/10

      When our material body is gone what is left? ....our spiritual sense and consciousness (our actual being that never was material and never will be). I see so many of you do not believe there is anything else after we die or pass on but this doesn’t mean you are right . Because YOU don’t see something or know of something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. So often we simply reject an idea because we cannot relate to it so it seems impossible. Spiritual awareness, like extended focussed contemplation is not something that is practised by alot of people in our world of instant and quick responses .
      Spirituality and after death experience cannot be assessed and dismissed without ALOT of in depth study .  I mean, we cant see the wind can we ...but we don’t say it doesn’t exist…and we cant see God and we cant yet experience death but these are things that can ONLY be felt through spiritual awareness and of course by speaking to those who HAVE actually been through that experience and there have been so   many thousands of these people ...it is not at ALL uncommon to clinically die and then inexplicably to “come back” . I have spoken to 3 people who have experienced this and although I am sure that for some people there may well be nothing after they die (because there was no spiritual awareness when they were alive) there are many many more who will experience an “extension” of their level of consciousness when they were here. It has been described by many as “like walking into another room” and you realise what we always thought was so unsubstantial or unreal was actually the MOST real !
      All those of you who think there is nothing please remember that if you walk into a dark room and don’t turn on the light, you will see nothing and experience problems as you trip over the furniture….but if you BOTHER to turn on a light and look around, then you can move through that room   effectively.

    • Steely Dan says:

      01:14pm | 28/01/11

      @ Jason Todd

      Don’t forget that many creationists have another category of evolution they like to talk about - superevolution!  Superevolution (yet another term actual scientists don’t use) was thought up by young-earthers to explain the immense diversity of life given that two of each animal simply couldn’t have fit onto the ark if the biblical dimensions are accurate.  They argue that you only need one pair of horse-like animals to produce (in a few thousand years) all the different species of horse-like animals from miniature ponies to zebra.  Young-earthers (or at least the young-earthers that accept that the ark was a few million square cubits too small to house all of ‘creation’) see superevolution as a kind of ‘microevolution’, just sped up to an insane degree.  By magic, aka god.

      I’ve always found the ‘macroevolution is impossible’ argument kind of weird - weirder than most creationist stuff.  If we all accept that small evlutionary steps in populations are possible, what’s stopping the cumulative effects of millions of years of small steps from looking like a big step?  If creationists want to say it’s impossible, the burden of proof is on them to show that there is some mechanism that actually prevents ‘macroevolution’ from occurring.

    • Jason Todd says:

      09:40am | 28/01/11

      @Jess. I agree with you in principle. However the terms “Macroevolution” and “microevolution” are two that have been invented by creationists to explain away problems that are not addressed by their belief system. No biologist accepts either of these terms, because “Evolution” says it all, there is no need to distinguish between “macro” and “micro” because both are accomplished by the same system.

      The reason creationists need to create this separation is because they are forced by circumstance to recognise that evolution is possible when it comes to adressing the extreme variation in things like dogs, cats and horses (which they then refer to as “variation within a kind”) but they still assert the fact that it would be impossible for an organism to evolve into a different ‘kind’ over millions of years. This would conflict with their beliefs.

      The reason for my comment to Shot then was to indicate that by believing in the “Micro” evolution, he does indeed believe in the mechanism of evolution, he just merely has some cognitive dissonance to overcome. I was NOT trying to say that just saying a word implies belief in its substance.

    • Jess says:

      08:15pm | 01/01/11

      @ Jason Todd
      The use of particular words is so that everyone can quickly understand what we mean. It does not imply acceptance of a theory.

      For example, you use the word ‘God’, yet would emphatically deny belief in him.

    • Jason Todd says:

      11:20am | 30/12/10

      Oops. Your name is suitably apt Shot. The mere mention of “Macro"evolution indicates as much. By recognising ‘micro’ evolution (change within a group) you concede that you do recognise evolution. The terms macro and micro lend nothing to the debate, and say nothing about the mechanism itself. Rather, they serve as ‘weasel words’ to allow believers to pick and choose what pieces of science they want to accept and still conform to their religious worldview.

      To claim to believe in “micro” evolution, but not “macro” evolution is the same as me claiming to that ‘micro’ walking (such as walking down to the corner shop) exists, but ‘macro’ walking (such as walking interstate) does not. It’s the same mechanism, the only difference is the time frame considered.

      However, to consider the point I think you are trying to make, there is a big difference between having ‘faith’ in a continued, demonstrated and repeatable series of events supported by evidence and having faith in unsupported claims.
      For example;  I have ‘faith’ that the sun will rise tomorrow. I have no proof that it will, besides the fact that for all the days that I have been alive, the sun has risen.  I have an understanding of the dynamics of the universe and the mechanism by which the sun does rise each day.

      It has been demonstrated by my experience that this mechanism is repeatable, reproducible, and all of our understanding and observation about that mechanism dictate that this sequence of events will continue. Can we say for sure? No. But can we be reasonably confident that it will based on the evidence? Yes.

      Now, if someone comes to me and says that the sun will not rise tomorrow, because tonight it will be swallowed by an invisible but vengeful dragon and spirited away to the dragon dimension, and it will not be returned in the morning unless we make a sacrifice to appease the dragons, I have every right to question this, even if they have ‘faith’ that their claim is true. Why? Because nothing in our experience or understanding has demonstrated or supported their theory . Can I say for sure that their version of events is not correct? No. I can’t. Can I be reasonably sure that it isn’t based on the evidence? Yes. I can. Their theory is at odds with what we know about planetary movement, cosmology and the existence of dragons.

      This is why I have ‘faith’ in science but not ‘faith’ in religion. Different types of faith, and they really aren’t comparable.

    • Shot yourself in the foot says:

      08:58am | 30/12/10

      @Ben Says: “And you are ignorant of the fact that there has been plenty of scientific study into the area. You know what science has found? Nothing”

      Funny Ben, I found the same for Macro biological evolution, yet I’m sure you believe in that. Faith much? Cambrian explosion? Life from non life? I have yet to find any evidence of macro evolution. Yes the universe expanded from a singularity, yes graptolytes have adapted and “evolved” within their own group, but past that nothing has been “scientifically” proven, even after all of the money and research that has been sunken into it.

      So what exactly was your point again? To believe in either point of view requires faith as both are essentially theory.

    • Reg says:

      01:31pm | 29/12/10

      (Can’t believe I’m responding to this.) The very fact that we walk into what is known as a “room,” means we have expectations of what is usually found in a room. We are making observation based on experience, as well we might. To do otherwise would be foolish. It is for this reason that it is also foolish to act on NO observations or experience of God, heaven and hell. Physical church constructions (rooms) are mere attempts to offer something concrete to the minds of people who naturally find the notion of invisible reliance to be irrational.

      Notice how “substantial ” those pews are.

      Turn on the light? I assume you mean to hang onto the chandelier imploring someone to give you a spin.

    • Peter says:

      11:25am | 29/12/10

      @mayday

      There maybe furniture in the dark room, doesn’t change a thing. But to complete the analogy you need to add something to this. You could have a person standing outside that room, this person may have or may not have been in the room but says there is furniture in the room, the door is locked…. so there is no way you can see for your self.

      The question is though, faced with this would you go around telling ppl there is furniture in the room? even though you don’t actually know, but you believe there to be furniture in the room? it could be true or not, but if we live our lives like that then we have put our brains in a jar and let someone else do the thinking for us.

    • Mayday says:

      11:09am | 29/12/10

      But if there is furniture in this dark room then there is something not nothing!?!?

    • Your name:Peter says:

      11:02am | 29/12/10

      You can just as easily say just because you cant see it you cant prove it does exist either… mute point.

      But you can believe anything YOU want and as far as YOU are concerned it actually exists… but that still doesn’t mean it exists, after all a madman may believe many things, believe have seen things but actually had hallucinations. That still doesn’t mean it actually exists.

      If someone told you a lie and you believe it to be true…. is it true? Yes for YOU it is.

      As for near death experiences well…. the human brain is an amazing thing, still not fully understood.

    • Ben says:

      10:57am | 29/12/10

      And you are ignorant of the fact that there has been plenty of scientific study into the area. You know what science has found? Nothing. No evidence for any of it, and plenty of evidence to suggest the “paranormal” doesn’t exists in any form.

      Our “selves” are just distributed processes in our brains. What we see is just an approximation of reality, our memories are just blurry impressions. Our brains lie to us, fill in the details, adapt, see patterns in unrelated occurrences. We can can convince ourselves of things that didn’t happen, confuse dreams with reality, and reality with dreams.

      There is no such thing as “spiritual awareness”. It is just your brain seeing patterns where none exist: a survival instinct evolved over millions of years to differentiate between safety and danger. But it’s flawed, it returns false positives. Couple with confirmation bias, it can convince you of things that aren’t real.

      You can be convinced that you’re the only one with the lights on, but the rest of us see just fine.

    • Simon says:

      10:49am | 29/12/10

      Diane you make some interesting points.

    • Andrew says:

      10:13am | 29/12/10

      The problem, Diane, is to choose our method of knowing. You seem to know that our “actual being” is not material; but, how do you know that? The way you know it seems to be the same way others “know” that the elephant-headed god Ganesha exists. Do you believe in Ganesha? If not, why not? His devotees “know” he exists in the same way you “know” that our being is non-material. The method of knowing is suspect.

    • Marian Dalton says:

      09:52am | 29/12/10

      Ah yes, there are the atheists, the straw man ‘Muslim’ and the people who know the ‘truth’, i.e. that your narrow concept of faith, spirituality and the afterlife is the ‘real’ one.

      You just conveniently ignore any other religion, any other spiritual belief that might have definite ideas that are different from yours. You belittle even the idea of doubt, as though unquestioning faith were somehow more virtuous than using your brain or allowing yourself to wonder.

      This article isn’t even barely-concealed proselytising - it’s outright evangelism of a kind that goes beyond patronising to actually being offensive.

    • MelD says:

      09:52am | 29/12/10

      What happens when you die??? Your heart stops beating, that’s it, you wont be around to see what happens after that.

      but if we had to specify I am most probably going to hell, but at least it will be warm and I can probably swing it so I can torture souls to my hearts content, mwahahaha

    • Richard says:

      09:48am | 29/12/10

      There’s just no way to know, either way, what will happen or has happened to other’s, or what exists beyond the physical realm: the is no conclusive evidence either way.

      Instead of the smugly assured sanctimonious ministering or the dour nihilistic lecturing, can’t we all just accept that whatever happens happens, live life in the moment and die with courage and curiosity?

    • Pete says:

      09:46am | 29/12/10

      Can we separate afterlife and God in this conversation. I’m an atheist who believes there is evidence for an afterlife. My evidence comes from parapsychology, not some 3000 year old fairy tale. I’m betting those who post that there is absolutely no scientific evidence for a soul which continues after death have never even picked up (or clicked on) a parapsychology journal.  There are also millions of other atheists in the world who believe in an afterlife….i.e. Buddhists.


      Oh yeah…Christians, there’s this thing called burden of proof….and you’ve got it!!! Congratulations.

    • notSue says:

      03:22pm | 04/01/11

      @ True Believer. Fair enough, it would seem the junta are anti-religion. no unusual for their form of oligarchy. However, none of this provides any evidence to substantiate the so- called monk’s so -called testimony. It still reads like a fable. I find it incredibly difficult to have any confidence in it, although if it is true, it’s still *one* monk’s account of his conversion. Small potatoes in the big picture. Cheers.

    • True Believer says:

      12:11pm | 03/01/11

      NotSue:

      I think if you peruse this site (one of many telling of the persecutions of Christians by the Burmese Junta) you will find the Junta is no friend of Christianity and therefore extremely unlikely to use the monk to promote it.

      http://www.burmalibrary.org/docs6/ReligiousPersecution.pdf

    • notSue says:

      01:04pm | 31/12/10

      @ True Believer I suggest the junta WOULD be interested in discrediting the Burmese sangha ( Buddhist monk community) since they have openly opposed them. Promoting Christianity might be one way to loosen the peoples’ faith and in their religious leaders. Just a thought.

    • True Believer says:

      10:29pm | 29/12/10

      NotSue
      Thank you for your reply to the post. What you contributed is interesting but in no way disproves the monk’s account - you make assumptions - no problem, that is your opinion.

      However, I venture to suggest that the Burmese Junta would be most unlikely surely to promote Christianity as this monk now does??

    • notSue says:

      04:21pm | 29/12/10

      Also, that account is of a vision.  I’m afraid I don’t put much credence in it. For a start, the Burmese monk was most likely a Theravadan, a very “straight” form of Buddhism. Some forms, the Varjarayana ( Tibetan) have a belief in hell dimensions.
      Not to mention the whole thing reads like propaganda from the Burmese junta! A gigantic spoonful of salt wouldn’t hurt!

    • notSue says:

      04:04pm | 29/12/10

      @True Believer.

      One does not have to believe in rebirth or an afterlife to be a Buddhist, belief in one lifetime is acceptable. Unlike Christianity, were a belief in heaven and hell is pretty much compulsory.

    • True Believer says:

      11:02am | 29/12/10

      @Pete

      You might be interested to read this account of a NDE by a Bhuddhist monk - he is no longer a Bhuddhist I can assure you.

      http://bibleprobe.com/backfromthedead.htm

    • True Believer says:

      11:02am | 29/12/10

      @Pete

      You might be interested to read this account of a NDE by a Bhuddhist monk - he is no longer a Bhuddhist I can assure you.

      http://bibleprobe.com/backfromthedead.htm

    • Aussie Bob says:

      09:44am | 29/12/10

      Each to his own. We’ve got to get past trying to push our beliefs onto others and expecting others to play by our rules. Life’s too short for that. I’m out there enjoying every breath while I’m on this incredible planet, for however long I have here.

    • MG says:

      09:42am | 29/12/10

      I was raised nominally Christian. heaven and hell being drumed into me from an early age, do good go to heaven, do bad your going to hell.
      But as one of the few people who has experienced death (electric shock, massive blood loss and 6 minutes with no heart beat/pulse, before being CPR’d back to life) and returned I think I am uniquely qualified to comment here.
      When I died there was a bright white light, there was no pain and suffering, I felt completely at peace, I didn’t feel frightened, I saw people working on my body, I talked to them later about what they did and they were amazed about the details I knew about, I didn’t see heaven or hell. I can’t say I believe in either. I’m not frightened about dying next time, I think it will be OK.

    • Carla says:

      09:40am | 29/12/10

      Good read, Steve - thanks for reflecting on an important question publicly, especially in this day and age!  God bless,

    • Reg says:

      10:46am | 29/12/10

      Carla, you acknowledge the question but do not attempt an answer?

      Does it raise not a single doubt in your mind? And what’s wrong with this day and age that was not wrong with the unnamed age you have failed to identify? Do you mean relative to Jesus life-time? Or 50 years ago. “It has been said” that peace never came after WWI, that peace was as it was before WWI, and that was gone for-ever. “This day and age?”

    • Shane says:

      09:39am | 29/12/10

      Truth. If you know the truth, then the truth will set you free… This is a saying from the Bible. So if this statement is true, then it means someone or something is surpressing the truth not to set you free…

      The case for Christ (and not evidence - as atheist and any religion have the same evidence in front of us) is overwhelming.
      You don’t need to have proof to believe in something. Take for example criminal convictions. No one may have seen the crime, the may not even be finger prints, blood etc, but people get convicted. Why? Because circumstantial evidence etc makes it beyond a doubt someone to be innocent or guilty.

      Noah’s ark for example is a classic example. Do you believe it happened or did not?
      If you thought it was in the bible, then you are misled. There are 100 cultures in the world that have some account of the flood.
      Australian aboriginals have an account of their ‘god’ sending a rainbow after a big flood. The chinese character for very large boat is 8 mans vessel (reference to the 8 people in the ark?) - heck just to slip this in - did you know the Chinese character for ‘tempter’ consists of the devil, between two trees and a garden? 
      The Guigenheim (ancient race) had a very convincing similar account…

      For me, after years of study, I believe I’ve been convicted to believe there is a God.

        

       

    • Phred says:

      04:59am | 06/01/11

      OMG - you are seriously saying that all people convicted by circumstantial evidence are guilty, because it’s natural justice?  Wow .. so what about every person who has ever been wrongly convicted? Gimme a break ..

      “The” flood could easily be the thawing of the Ice Age. It could also be any number of natural floods that occurred back when we didn’t have news choppers to show them all. For many ancient civilizations, the “world” was simply their part of it. Think about it. For the longest time, the eastern Mediterranean was considered “the world”.

      BTW, there’s a massive flood in QLD right now. Could this be similar to one that the ancient Aboriginals may have told Dreamtime stories about? Of course it could!

      You are using selected, flimsy arguments to prove your “overwhelming” case about Christ.  Oh wait .. those arguments were about God, floods and the Devil right?

      By all means, you are entitled to your opinion. But to hand pick pieces of history to somehow make your case just doesn’t work.  you seriously need to research your facts from non-biased sources. That’s right, do some work, don’t rely on what appears to be assertions from religious sources.

    • A Bob says:

      12:29pm | 29/12/10

      “Because circumstantial evidence etc makes it beyond a doubt someone to be innocent or guilty.” Nice try, but circumstantial evidence and nothing else will get a case thrown out of court before it even reaches a jury in Western justice systems.

      Your coincidence of ancient stories and symbols follows that of of Jung. The conclusion he drew was that our minds share common archetypes, one of which is ‘god’, indistinguishable from out archetype of self.

      Religion provides a means by which to project those archetypes onto external reaility, much like a lens allows us to project a film onto a screen. We claim it to be real and outside of us, even though it originates from within.

    • Sheridan Williams says:

      09:34am | 29/12/10

      To each and their own.

    • Ralf says:

      09:33am | 29/12/10

      You cant die because you have never been born. Some of you may wish to consider buddhism.  No need to believe in a god or a soul. If one just spends ten minutes contemplating what it means to say ‘who am i’ you will find there is in fact no answer! If you lose a limb, you would still consider yourself to be you, if you forget your memories you undoubtedly would still consider yourself to be you, so what part of you is your essence?  There in fact is none. The person you were as a child is very different to who you are now and who you will be in 5 years time. You are constantly changing, never being able to say there is one single facet of your body or mind that is you. So, be kind to others and don’t worry about death as really you don’t exist as you think anyway:)

    • Hugh says:

      09:28am | 29/12/10

      The best commentary on this subject I have ever read is paraphrased below from the Shobogenzo, Genjokoan by zen master Eihei Dogen.

      “Firewood turns into ash and does not turn into firewood again. But do not suppose that the ash is after and the firewood before….. So after one’s death, one does not return to life again. Thus, that life does not become death is a confirmed teaching of the buddha-dharma….for this reason, life is called the non-born. ....death is called the non extinguished. Life is a period of itself. Death is a period of itself. They are like winter and spring” The text goes on to say, “The whole moon and the whole sky is reflected in a dew drop in the grass, in one drop of water…as for the duration of the reflection you should examine the water’s vastness or smallness and you should discern the brightness or dimnnessof the heavenly moon.”

    • notSue says:

      12:54pm | 29/12/10

      Aah, Zen. it appeals to the rational mind but also appeals to the desire for a philosophy of life. That’s a lovely quotation, Hugh.

    • Happy_Cynic says:

      11:52am | 29/12/10

      @Reg, I think the argument is meant to be “Life doesn’t become death, life is life, death is death.  While you’re alive don’t concern yourself with what happens in death.  Deal with it when you get to that period of your existence.  Meanwhile live in the moment and experience all the delights that life has to offer while you have the time.  Or some such.

    • Reg says:

      10:38am | 29/12/10

      I don’t know how I can say anything contrary here without being disrespectful. It reminds me of the modern “Mission Statement.”

      “We will delight all our customers both internally and externally by understanding and exceeding all their expectations.”  (from BAE Systems the largest guided missile manufacturer in the world.)

    • Prince says:

      09:27am | 29/12/10

      The notion of an afterlife is a clever construct to keep the majority of humans from murdering, raping, and pillaging during their lifetimes - that is all.

      Think of game theory - in a game with no end ( life then afterlife ) there is no incentive to cheat (murder , rob, rape destroy)  as you will likely suffer repercussions, but in a game with an end ( life only ) there is the incentive to cheat (murder , rob, rape destroy) at the last moment when you will not be subject to repercussions.

    • Paul Clayton says:

      09:25am | 29/12/10

      As a young bible study student I questioned why such a loving and omnipotent god could condone evil, Hitler came to mind.
      The answer was “It’s God’s Will”.
      Until I can get a better answer to that and the question of What Happens When I Die? I am an atheist.

    • Jess says:

      08:23pm | 01/01/11

      Because the human race was made with the ability to choose right or wrong. A race of robots cannot love. Neither can it perpetrate evil (except in human imagination).

      So just as great good can be done by one person (eg Mother Teresa) so great evil can be done by one person - Hitler.

      We are all given choices:
      What will you choose?
      To love Jesus? Or to disdain him?

    • A Bob says:

      01:02pm | 29/12/10

      “It’s Gods will”. Darn tootin’. Consider:

      “Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.” - Romans 13:1 (NASB)

      The “which exist” comes from the Greek ‘eimi’, whose tense is universal. i.e, past, present and future. Meaning all governments, now and forever.

      Think about it. Hitler, Stalin et. al. were an extension of Gods authority. The Holocaust was God’s idea. All the arguments that go on here about which mass murderer or despot was an athiest or not are moot. Whatever they may have believed they, were put in power by the active will of God. He didn’t just sit by and let it happen as an artifact of human free will, the get-out-jail-free card Christians use to justify the existence of evil, they did what they did with His express permission.

    • dave says:

      11:58am | 29/12/10

      perfection does not equal ‘good’.

      Things are always exactly as they should be - in that instant. ‘good’ and ‘evil’ are concepts based on our limited ability to understand reality - they are merely our own judgements. God’s love transcends the ‘good’ and ‘evil’ we perceive - because God is ALL-loving. God loves Hitler - just as he loves you and me.

      the ‘better answer’ you seek won’t come from outside of yourself (ie bible class) but from your ability to love both ‘good’ and ‘evil’. Love Hitler as much as a loving God does and you will find the answers you seek.

    • Karl says:

      09:25am | 29/12/10

      We end up in the same place we visit every night but can’t remember the next morning - I’ve been having random out-of -body experiences since I was kid - I’m 37 now.

      It is experiential, you need to experience it directly, reading books and going to church won’t lead to the direct experience - just a new belief.
      We live in a subjective universe - we are not separate from that which we experience - the separation is an illusion.

      Sit down and meditate regularly, you will eventually be able to see that this physical body is made for this physical plane, it’s a vehicle not the operator of the vehicle - you can’t sail the seven seas in a train and you can’t benefit from the physical plane without a body.

      And for the people who want proof - as I said it is subjective not objective - you need to experience it, not see a scientific test that proves it - an objective test of a subjective reality is not possible.

    • MelD says:

      02:29pm | 29/12/10

      are you sure you weren’t just high?

    • david says:

      11:14am | 29/12/10

      in profound moments of meditation one experiences - nothingness.

      An atheist believes there is nothing after death. Perhaps the nothingness is actually heaven.

    • Brian Daly says:

      09:43am | 29/12/10

      The answer lie within. Meditate and you will find it.

    • Peter says:

      09:19am | 29/12/10

      For those that believe in Heaven, what will it be like? After you’ve caught up with all your dead rellies, and discussed your lives and shocking family secrets, what do you do for the rest of the time? You don’t need to eat, drink, sleep or go to the toilet - so no restaurants or pubs, or any dreams. You won’t even need a house to live in, or clothes to wear, so no fun going shopping or seeing movies. Apart from looking at the Glory of God for all Eternity, it will get rather boring.
      And what about those Muslim warriors who get 14 virgins in heaven? They won’t be virgins forever - and what then happens to the souls of those former-virgins? No point for any women to remain a virgin in this world, if your life after death involves sleeping with hairy Talibans in heaven as a consolation prize…

    • Chris L says:

      12:57pm | 29/12/10

      Edward, what makes you think that one needs religion to be moral? Also, how moral is it to suggest people kill themselves?

    • Jason Todd says:

      12:25pm | 29/12/10

      Edward,  Who would you prefer to hang out with; The kids who didn’t muck around only because the teacher was watching, or the kids who didn’t muck around because they decided that it was the right thing to do?

      You have every right to your faith, and I can’t fault you for it. But if you are honestly going to stand there and suggest that because I don’t believe in your god, there is no point to my existance and that I possess no morals, then we have a much bigger conversation on our hands.

    • NicoleG says:

      11:20am | 29/12/10

      Well if there is a heaven, my hope is that you get stuck up there with all your ex wives Reg. Forever!

    • Horse says:

      10:39am | 29/12/10

      and being stuck with all those people from times gone by - the dark ages, the middle ages, the iron age, the bronze age - a retrograde step if ever there was one.

    • Reg says:

      10:18am | 29/12/10

      Actually I heard your rellies express the same thoughts about being stuck with you blossom. smile  Never mind about the hairy Taliban, it’s the hairy UNWASHED Taliban I don’t want living next door in the heavenly grove.

    • MrMac says:

      10:15am | 29/12/10

      edward,

      the “prophecies came to pass” only because the New testament was written to fulfil those “prophecies”.

    • edward says:

      10:04am | 29/12/10

      Actually mate I don’t believe there will be time for catching up witht he rellies. That’s not what Heaven is about. People say there is no evidence of an after life. Can’t dispute that on the basis of anyone going there and coming back. However looking at the other evidence that exists for the people of the book and there are a large number of forecasts (prophecies) that came to pass. Don’t get hung up on a particular translation but do some research and then see how many matches there are. So if the forecasts like Tyre being thrown into the water are completed (Done by Alex the Great) why shouldn’t more of the Bible be accurate? If the 1st coming of Christ was forecast by Isiah many 100’s of years before his coming happen, why shouldn’t the things spoken about occur?

      As for the Atheist number - they have always existed and nearly always will. But as for me and my family we are believers - Given the choice would I really want to assume that there is nothing after this life, that there is no point to this existance or believe that there is a set of morale behaviour I can model my life after - by choice; and have a benefit after I die? If you believe the first you should go and make yourself a “Darwin Award” contender.

    • NicoleG says:

      09:38am | 29/12/10

      Oh gawd, what a depressing thought. Being stuck with your dead rellies for ever and you couldn’t even stand them when they were alive. You’ve just depressed me big time :(

    • Brian Daly says:

      09:10am | 29/12/10

      There is a documentary coming out in 2011 on George Harrisons life. I believe your questions will be answered here.

    • Horse says:

      10:12am | 29/12/10

      and being stuck woth all those from times gone by - the dark ages, the middle ages, the iron age, the bronze age - a retrograde step if ever there was one.

    • fairsfair says:

      08:58am | 29/12/10

      What happens - I think we cease to exist in our current form and immediately begin to decompose, just like the cane toad I ran over on my way to work this morning. There is an afterlife I suppose - but it is limited to a corpse fertilizing the patch of ground in which it or its ashes are placed. Or decorating the mantle in which our urn is placed (freaky, but thats a whole other story). Our consciousness ceases to exist, probably in most cases before our death is even apparent.

      I respect people who have faith. I don’t understand them, but I respect them and in some ways I envy them as I do not have the ability to take information at face value and not question it in any area of my life. Gets me into trouble sometimes. What I don’t appreciate it when those who do have faith do not have enough respect for my own beliefs. Steve, you have not shown that in this post and it makes for a pleasant change. You see, I have no proof to back up my assertion. Science tells me what happens to my body, but nothing about my soul (which I do not believe exists). Steve, you don’t have proof of what you asert either - and that is ok. 

      I remember feeling almost sorry for my 86 year old Grandma when she died. I was 11 at the time. She was a devout Catholic from the moment she converted to marry my Grandfather in 1925 and even to her dying days she gave her every spare penny to the church and attended without ever missing weekly mass. She had faith and all I remember immediately following her death is wondering how annoyed she must have been to pass away and there be nothing. However, being dead she would never have known. Faith is a coping mechanism and whatever tool you choose to get you through the day and the hard times is fine by me. Like I said, I wish I had that.

      Perhaps the very definition of heaven is actually the cessation of life. I by no means disrespect my life or that of others, but perhaps being released from the pain of terminal illness or whatever troubles and worries you have at the time of your death into nothingness is nirvana. Peace.

      My money is on worm food and not knowing anything about it and that is fine by me.

    • Mayday says:

      08:55am | 29/12/10

      “I didn’t get it. Such an important question, with far-reaching implications, but receiving such little interest.”  Really?

      What’s so important about not existing, nothing, zilch, squat, finito?

      As an atheist I know when I die that is it and all I can do while I am alive is to take care of my family, do the right thing by others and create lots and lots of wonderful memories to get me and my loved ones through the inevitability of my body wearing out..

      There is no default to sky lounges and catching up with past family and friends, there is just a big, big nothing!

      Enjoy it while you are here, that’s all we’ve got so live well!

    • True Believer says:

      10:57am | 30/12/10

      @Mayday

      I do not have to prove it, I know it to my satisfaction - you have zero proof there is no soul.  Science does not and never will have all the answers, especially to the really big questions in life. That is where faith comes in, but if you choose to live only by that which can be proven empirically, you will never know. :0)

    • Mayday says:

      08:30am | 30/12/10

      TB where is your proof there is a soul????

    • True Believer says:

      10:16pm | 29/12/10

      Ted:
      “Souls, spirit, etc are just constructs from the past.”

      Your proof for the above statement is?????????
      I know the body dies that is indisputable, but you cannot prove there is no soul, no spirit, no afterlife. It is just your opinion, which you are entitled to, but it does not make it true.

    • Tedd says:

      11:44am | 29/12/10

      TB

      Empirical Knowledge of what happens to all mammalian bodies: death of the body including all cellular units and their internal machinery,  - including neuronal death and ceasing of neuronal transmission.  Nothing else happens.

      Souls, spirit, etc are just constructs from the past.

    • True Believer says:

      10:51am | 29/12/10

      @mayday

      “As an atheist I know when I die that is it…” 

      I am interested to know how do you KNOW??  What evidence do you have for your belief?? I mean, empirical proof, not just your opinion.

    • Lee says:

      08:50am | 29/12/10

      But kryger has an old book for scientific evidence, that’s got to outweigh other old books from ‘non-western’ cultures and a total absence of modern scientific data that supports his claims. Although I hear they did find some wood which must make the whole of the noah story true.

    • Reg says:

      08:50am | 29/12/10

      Steve is it??/  Yes, Steve, pardon me for suggesting your faith is shaky, as it should be ... here…“As a Christian, I believe it is possible. The Bible is both the authority and road-sign that I place my hope and confidence in.”

      You believe it is possible? Not certain, just possible.

      You live in hope and confidence that you are following the correct book. It’s just as well to leave the way clear to be wrong I suppose since it matters to you so much. Life implies growth and change, so why do you cling to a static existence with an undercurrent of longing for death.

      So that your eyes will be opened?

      Pardon the parallel but I see your attitude as similar to the miser who lives in poverty while hoarding his wealth just in case he ever needs it.

    • MelD says:

      02:22pm | 29/12/10

      you don’t want to have belief, better to have an idea, idea’s can change with evidence or with evolution but it’s not that easy to change a belief, better to think it may be right, after all what is god going to do? she lost interest in us long ago

    • Simon says:

      08:31am | 29/12/10

      How can most of you say there is no evidence? Check out Christian Science.  It’s been out there for 100 years.

    • A Bob says:

      11:08am | 29/12/10

      “Christian Science”? You mean Mary Baker Eddy’s lot? Where to begin with this? Well, I guess I should top giggling as a first step, it’s making it hard to type.

      Yep, 200 years ago some woman started a Christian cult claiming that people had it wrong for the last 1800 odd years because only she had discovered the ‘key’ to interpreting the bible. Yes, God would leave people in darkness for all that time until she came along to clear things up.

      This is the line used by all cultists, that they are the true source of interpretation. Just like the Rosicrucians, Swedenborgians and other loonies. As if the more orthodox interpretations are not bad enough there is a strong market for even more whacky cults out on the the lunatic-fringe of Christendom.

    • Troy Flynn says:

      10:25am | 29/12/10

      Christian Science is an oxymoron, it’s endorsed by psuedo intellectuals to justify there fundamentalist approach to belief. They set out to debunk all of Charles Darwin’s good work and try to push “Creationism” in schools to the detriment of Evolution as evidenced by the court case in Dover, PA in the U.S. back in 2004.

    • Andrew says:

      09:03am | 29/12/10

      Evidence, yes. Good evidence, no. Read up on scientific method some time.

    • sproket says:

      08:48am | 29/12/10

      “out here:” is definitely the correct term to describe it

    • Elphaba says:

      08:24am | 29/12/10

      Of course, there’s the occasional atheist who is convinced that they have no eternal soul that will endure beyond their last breath, but from my random sampling, these are few and far between.

      I fail to see the point of this statement.  Have you ever wondered that most people think you go to Heaven because that’s the kind of people you hang out with?

      I didn’t get it. Such an important question, with far-reaching implications, but receiving such little interest.

      That’s because you’re missing something in your life.  If you were living life to the fullest, you wouldn’t be worried about death.  You’re worried because you think every action you have there is some spiritual bitch-slap waiting for you the second you mess up.

      Oh, and the Bible is the authority?  Just because it’s had the capacity to scare people like you straight for the past 2000 years doesn’t mean it’s ‘the authority’. 

      I don’t give too much thought about what happens when I die because… well… I can’t change it, and I’m too busy doing stuff like living. 

      I think it’s like before you were born.  Supreme, total, all-encompassing nothingness.  I don’t want an afterlife.  Living for ever and ever… and ever… gawd, no thanks.  Unless God (or whatever) removes our brains and turns us into some sort of lobotomised spiritual being happy to just gaze adoringly in His face (isn’t that what people in Heaven do?) then I’ll pass.  I’ll stick with this life, and a blissful, permanent unconsciousness afterwards.

      A better place?  What could be better than right here?  Well, except for the fact that I’m back at work, grrr…. otherwise I reckon this life is awesome.  It’s already going to be a hard act to follow.

      Closing your eyes and convincing yourself that there is a better place than this one is just sad.  The world is a beautiful place, but you have to make your corner of the world beautiful.  Stop waiting for God to charge in and do the housekeeping and just do it yourself.  You might be surprised.

    • Elphaba says:

      12:05pm | 30/12/10

      @TB - that wasn’t a joke, and you know it.  Nice try.

    • True Believer says:

      10:51am | 30/12/10

      Elphaba:

      I apologise, I was not aware that modern day atheists have no sense of humour.  :0)

    • Elphaba says:

      06:01am | 30/12/10

      @TB:

      Oh, I’m sorry - religions and deity worship can come in many forms, but all us atheists have to be grouped under the one umbrella term with that beligerent wanker Dawkins as the mouthpiece?

      Thanks you for proving my point though.

    • True Believer says:

      10:08pm | 29/12/10

      Elphaba:

      A rose by any other name?  Still a life raft very likely to develop a serious leak. :0)

    • Elphaba says:

      06:02pm | 29/12/10

      @TB it’s also called pragmatic atheism, or apatheism.

    • Elphaba says:

      05:52pm | 29/12/10

      “You have zero proof that there is no afterlife.”

      @TB, you have zero proof there *is* one!  Admit that at least!

      You won’t though.  Because you think you’re right and I’m wrong.  I have repeatedly told you that I have, and still do, repeatedly look into all types of spirituality.  I am open to discussing the theory, what I am not open to is people like you who say “Oh, you’re going to wake up and realise you’re wrong!”  I have NEVER said that to you, ever - and yet you still act like a sanctimonious prick.

      You’re not humble.  You’re not reeking of humility and purity.  You’re just annoying.  That’s ok, so am I.  I’m ok with it though.

      Just because you jumped on the Christian side doesn’t mean I will.  In fact, your track record makes you more likely to abandon this set of principles at some point as well.  You already abandoned one set.

      I’ve never said I would be an atheist for the rest of my life.  Who knows what life will bring?  I’m pretty sure I’ve said this before, and I’m repeating myself.  But no, you call me judgemental - all because I think differently to you.

      I don’t judge the afterlife.  I just don’t believe there is one.  I don’t care either way.  If I’m proven right, cool.  I’f I’m proven wrong, cool too.  Practical atheism, it’s called.  Look it up.  In the meantime, pray to God that you become more accepting of those that are different from you.

    • True Believer says:

      04:32pm | 29/12/10

      Elphaba:

      Boy your atheism sure has a judgemental edge. On afterlife - mock and scoff all you will, the Truth is you will have one and it is up to you where you spend it.  You have zero proof that there is no afterlife.

      I suspect what bugs you is that having been an atheist I know what that is like - you cling to your atheism - I found in that the emptiness it is. You have not checked out the alternative. All you can do is go on the negative experience you had at some time. Not a good basis for life is it?  God is love, perfect love casts out fear.  Yeppers tis in the Bible, but you have the utmost right to cling to your little life-raft of atheism in the ocean of life.  One day though I can assure you it will spring a leak - then what will you cling to?? 

      Having accepted the free gift of life from Jesus I have the assurance there is an afterlife and by His grace I will spend it with Him.

      It is not about being sanctimonious, it is about being mature and humbling my proud humanity enough to accept the gift of life when it was offered to me.  Yeppers my little life-raft of atheism sprung a bigggg leak. Thank God His hand was outstretched offering me life and that not because there was any good in me, but because of His grace and His grace alone.

    • Elphaba says:

      12:04pm | 29/12/10

      @TB - it’s not an assumption.  I’ve witnessed it firsthand - people (children, and adults) terrified to live, unable to sleep, because of nutso religious educators who forced the idea of a vengeful God down their throats.

      So yes, I say it has a capacity to scare.  I’m not saying it’s the only capacity, just one of many.  Early Christians quailed in fear of the Bible.  They punished pagans because they thought that’s what God wanted.  You’re saying the Bibe never scared someone straight?  Ever?  I think fear is a huge motivator in religion.  My own experiences back me up, which is really all that matters.

      Let’s not get into an argument about evidence, hmmmm?

      Your beliefs don’t bug me.  Your inability to own your sanctimonious attitude bugs me.  I posted my opinion, and you zeroed straight in on me, filled with the need to point out how wrong I was.  I didn’t say the author was wrong.  I’m not saying you’re wrong.  I’m certainly not saying you’re right either.  So how about you stop assuming what I will and won’t do?  I don’t believe in, or want, an afterlife.  If that upsets you, then too bad.  The world is full of contradictions.

    • True Believer says:

      11:25am | 29/12/10

      @Elphaba

      “Oh, and the Bible is the authority?  Just because it’s had the capacity to scare people like you straight for the past 2000 years doesn’t mean it’s ‘the authority’.”

      You said it had the capacity to scare and you did not define how you came to that conclusion. Is it perhaps just a wee bit arrogant of you to assume that I would not deduce from your generalisation that you believed what you wrote??

      I know you have put me into one of your convenient dismissal boxes along with your judgement of me and that is ok.  I enjoy the discussions even so.  Keep up the good work. One day your will say “boy that TB was onto something you know” - I guarantee it. :0)

    • Elphaba says:

      11:15am | 29/12/10

      @TB, I didn’t say I found the Bible scary, but there sure are a lot of people who live their lives fearing its reprisal.  So long as they’re good, why should they have anything to fear?

      There you go again - arrogantly assuming you’ve got it right, and poor little me is deficient and blind.  I never said I have it right, only what I feel is the right path for me.  It’s an opinion, based on all the empirical evidence I’ve been able to digest (thus far).  I can’t believe in God or an afterlife to make you feel better.  You have your ideas, and I have mine.  Neither of us is right or wrong, the only difference between us is, I don’t assume I’m right - and you do.  Repeatedly.  *yawn*

    • True Believer says:

      10:47am | 29/12/10

      @Elphaba

      I think you are the one who is going to be surprised!!

      You are right the world is both incredibly beautiful and at the same time harbours incredible ugliness and evil, mainly through greed, inhumanity and self-centredness (the first made by God, the latter contributed by many, but of course not all, humans.) 

      I have been an atheist, let me tell you, tis an empty existence in comparison with being a friend of Jesus. 

      I am surprised you find the Bible scary, the New Testament is full of wisdom, love, freedom, hope, promises along with warnings to avoid the very behaviour that does cause the ugliness in the world.

      Jesus in it also talks of Satan who has you all conned that he does not exist.

      Boy you are really in for a surprise whichever road you choose to take before you die. Happy New Year.

    • Andrew says:

      08:23am | 29/12/10

      Emotionally, I am an atheist, perhaps because my father was quite rabidly so. Intellectually, I think it better to live without beliefs that historically have been routinely used to justify the oppression and persecution of others, to justify telling others how they should live. If such beliefs are formed in a mentally sloppy fashion - which they are - then they are castles in the air, without valid foundation. If fine people like Carl Sagan and David Attenborough can live without them, then that is good enough for me.

    • Nathan says:

      06:23pm | 29/12/10

      Andrew,

      I think it’s fair to say that there have been as many (conservatively speaking) regimes that have justified, or based, their atrocities on an atheistic view of life as there have been religious conflicts. Pol Pot, the Soviet Union, etc, etc, I don’t even have to break Godwin’s Law to come up with big numbers.

    • Andrew says:

      04:38pm | 29/12/10

      Rubbish, Nathan.

    • Nathan says:

      01:06pm | 29/12/10

      “I think it better to live without beliefs that historically have been routinely used to justify the oppression and persecution of others”

      So that rules out atheism too…

    • Terry Hayles says:

      08:21am | 29/12/10

      Countless billions have already learned the answer to this question and so shall all of us…... in our appointed time. Speculation is useless and pointless as there is no possibility of “verifiable proof” for any theory or speculation. Even the ever popular “near death experience” is often put down to hallucination or a dreamlike state. There is only ONE way to learn the answer and nobody is in a hurry to satisfy that particular curiosity.

    • Frank says:

      11:02am | 29/12/10

      Serious question:  Are we so sure that even if NDEs are explainable via the particular firing of neurones, that it is mutually exclusive with the existence or participation of a loving God in that instance?  As a Christian, I see no problem in God choosing to transcend the normal laws of nature (what we consider to be in the scientific, measurable realm) if he sees fit, or to effect an authentic NDE in the mind of a person, regardless of whether there is any firing of neurones or not.

    • Faz says:

      08:09am | 29/12/10

      Your post seems like a modern version of Pascal’s Wager, Steve and, as such, I find it pretty barren.

      If we are drawn to faith because we fear that God ‘threatens’ us with the ‘other place’ when we die, then it’s a pretty awful fear-of-death faith. Atheism makes more sense to me than that.

      I think that faith must impact on our life right here and right now. The better we do that, the less important, or fearful, an event like our own death wil be.

      I think the good news is that anyone can have it, but the bad news is that the ‘evidence’ for faith will never make it a certainty.

    • Jess says:

      08:47pm | 01/01/11

      @ Faz:

      If we are drawn to faith because God, my Father, Adonai, Elohim, the indescribable beyond words, is willing to love me and want me for his friend,

      ...why would I choose any other?

    • Seano says:

      02:51pm | 29/12/10

      Steve seems a bit…wet to me too Reg.

    • Reg says:

      11:33am | 29/12/10

      It is my impression that Steve’s message is a plea for help in deciding which way to jump. He betrays his uncertainty quite frequently and he has undoubtedly been pressured by those around him to adopt their views.

      Yes there are those who see it as a Christian outreach while others think it is too silly for words, yet they still supply them. So it is probably only another ploy to keep Christianity in the eyes of all, on the basis there is no such thing as bad publicity.

    • Seano says:

      11:00am | 29/12/10

      Where is the “Like” button on this thing?

    • Simon Ingram says:

      08:08am | 29/12/10

      Well written, Steve.

      Thank you.

      Really when it comes down to it, those who don’t believe choose not to, because as you say, they wish to live their lives separated from God. They choose separation from God, and so that is how they will spend their eternity. Free will is free will.

    • Ben says:

      10:35am | 29/12/10

      Brian, sadly that sums up much of Christian thought on the matter. They can’t imagine not believing, so it’s difficult to image anybody else not believing. You’re either rebellious or fraudulent, but you have to believe in Thor … I mean Yahweh.

    • Brian says:

      08:53am | 29/12/10

      Simon said: “Really when it comes down to it, those who don’t believe choose not to, because as you say, they wish to live their lives separated from God.”

      So, Simon, all Atheists used to believe in god, but then decided they didn’t want to believe anymore because they wanted to be separated from god?

      That’s a bit far-fetched.

    • MrMac says:

      08:51am | 29/12/10

      Jotun,

      I said “God is an unfounded proposition which ... is unlikely to be true”,

      so I agree the emphasis on supernatural notions is unnecessary.

    • Jotun says:

      08:39am | 29/12/10

      Actually, MrMac, he’s right - atheists wish to live our lives seperate from the manmade constructs of an all powerful deity who demands complete devotion, commands fear and drums into us that we are all sinners and must re-affirm our overwhelming disgust in our humanity to please Mr Kryger’s idea that we should be very, very concerned about what happens when we die.

      We could probably agree that what happens when we die is the last thing we should worry about, and that very mindset will allow us to focus on the most important thing; our life right now.

    • Reg says:

      08:30am | 29/12/10

      Separated from what?

      One can choose to believe in something or choose to believe in nothing. You choose to believe in nothing. Can you supply me an iron clad God certified guarantee that those who chose “separation from God” will spend eternity separated from God, without referring to some book or notion that was contrived by man?

    • MrMac says:

      08:20am | 29/12/10

      To say people that live life “separate from God do so as a choice - implying that is some kind of belligerence - denies that God is an unfounded proposition which mor and more people rationalise is unlikely to be true.

      Supernatural notions such as free will, soul and original sin are just that - notions.

    • Michael K says:

      08:02am | 29/12/10

      Kryger, Christianity does not offer an evidence-based approach to verifying life-after-death; you are still—to borrow your own terminology—crossing your fingers and hoping for the best (as we all are).

      If we approach the question of “What do you think happens when we die?” from the starting point that all religious scriptures are largely historically and scientifically unsubstantiated, then we arrive at what is essentially a philosophical debate. If we do, however, do as Kryger urges and use evidence (i.e. not belief) to base our views then the atheist argument for no-afterlife is perhaps the strongest. Darwinism dictates that humans have no special place or divine purpose; we have simply evolved to be at the top of the food chain. Instead, our purpose is to pass on DNA and genes which have been painstakingly evolved over tens of thousands of years. If this is the “meaning of life” then there is no reason for human consciousness to continue beyond the expiration of the physical body. Consciousness, too, is physical. There is little scientific basis for the argument that a soul will somehow disconnect from the human body upon death in order to float to another-world where it may live for eternity.

      It is perhaps wise that, as Kryger observes, most Australians don’t spend too much time pondering the question of afterlife. After all, death is final and ultimately inevitable. It is best that we make the most of the one life that we do have. We should do our utmost to contribute positively to society and to also take time to reflect on the wonder of our world. Perhaps, too, we should not worry about dying because we are so lucky to have had a chance to live; countless trillions of other sperm were not afforded such luck. To spend too much time pondering what is the likelihood of extending our own life, or to spend it worshipping some sky god in the very selfish hope of rescuing our soul from “Hell,” is an insult to those who never had a chance to live a full-life.

    • Julie says:

      09:53am | 29/12/10

      Thankyou for rational input - My physio was amazed I didn’t believe in an afterlife and was fairly happy to make the best of this life and then be composted…makes me feel good about being part of the Universal operandi, why not others?
      This belief in an everlasting soul is mere fantasy, an opium of the masses. The text is about keeping you in control.

    • Phred says:

      07:50am | 29/12/10

      In truth, we don’t know what will happen. You simply won’t know until you get there, and there’s no way to (actually) come back and report what’s seen. Kerry Packer may have been clinically dead temporarily, but using logic, how can he have said that he saw “nothing” when in fact, he was not conscious in any way shape or form, therefore he could not have “seen” anything. So of course he’s going to say there’s nothing. And perhaps, just perhaps, he wasn’t gone long enough to have made it anywhere. Food for thought, eh? 

      Me, personally, I believe our bodies disintegrate and we go back to dust, ie a part of the cosmos. I also believe that’s where we were before we were conceived - chemical fluids in our parents’ bodies, in turn a part of the cosmos. Does God exist? Yep, but I call him the Universe. I believe God IS the Universe and vice versa. Divinity for me is the Cosmos.

      Phew! Heavy topic today!

    • A Bob says:

      12:42pm | 29/12/10

      When the church was ‘opened’ on the day of Pentecost, peter told everyone to repent, confess their belief in Jesus and be baptised for the remission of their sins. Those are the conditions for entry into the body of Christ and salvation.

      The word ‘repent’ comes from the Greek ‘repentos’, which meant at the time ‘to change ones mind’. We’ve loaded a whole lot of other crap onto it since, like the need for penance, but back then it just meant a genuine change of heart.

      Someone who just believes in him isn’t doing enough. God, if omniscience is worth anything at all, will see through it. So death bed conversions may not be enough, especially if the motivation is fear of the afterlife and a hell.

      It doesn’t suprise me that you had two parents who were supposed educated in their religion but didn’t get this. Were they Lutheran, by any chance?

    • Peter says:

      10:41am | 29/12/10

      Bang on the mark, think about it (both my parents are ministers but I am Atheist ) take everything written about “God” and substitute it for “
      Universe” only then does it make sense and be proven true, “we are all part of god” unprovable. “We are all part of Universe” - absolutely fact.

      Nothing dies in a sense, only transforms from one thing to another so maybe this is where the skewed concept of afterlife came from? Unfortunately the religious sorts have taken too many things out of proper context and skewed the meanings. After all this religion was written long ago, back then it meant something different and served a different purpose, we have evolved since then and don’t need the concept of a “God” to know what is right or wrong. We for the most part just know.

      Think about this, if there is a God who gave you a brain, why would you not use it to think for yourself? Rather then let religion dictate what/how you should think wouldn’t that be an insult to God not to use his gift? That is the paradox.

      As for “faith”: God IS what YOU believe it to be, take that literally word for word and it will be true for both Believers and Atheist.

      In short you can believe whatever the hell you want to, but that does not make it true. How foolish would we all be if we all believed in a lie for thousands of years?

      Oh and as far as going to heaven is concerned from all I learned from my parents as ministers: The only requirement in religion is to believe, “God” doesn’t care if your good or bad (after all he forgives all sins if you ask, for you to ask you must believe), only that you believe.
      Think about that… and ask yourself if that seems right? seems like if God does exist then he has a pretty big ego “I don’t care if your a murderer or rapist…. so long as you believe in ME you can go to a happy place!!”.

    • Phred says:

      07:49am | 29/12/10

      In truth, we don’t know what will happen. You simply won’t know until you get there, and there’s no way to (actually) come back and report what’s seen. Kerry Packer may have been clinically dead temporarily, but using logic, how can he have said that he saw “nothing” when in fact, he was not conscious in any way shape or form, therefore he could not have “seen” anything. So of course he’s going to say there’s nothing. And perhaps, just perhaps, he wasn’t gone long enough to have made it anywhere. Food for thought, eh? 

      Me, personally, I believe our bodies disintegrate and we go back to dust, ie a part of the cosmos. I also believe that’s where we were before we were conceived - chemical fluids in our parents’ bodies, in turn a part of the cosmos. Does God exist? Yep, but I call him the Universe. I believe God IS the Universe and vice versa. Divinity for me is the Cosmos.

      Phew! Heavy topic today!

    • Simon says:

      08:28am | 29/12/10

      Think of all the possibilities logically. Kerry Packer may have lied.

      On another point, calling God “the universe” is fine…what does it matter what you call her?

    • Matt says:

      07:49am | 29/12/10

      Yeah, ‘cause fear of death should be a driving force in someone choosing their religion. /sarcasm

    • James says:

      07:45am | 29/12/10

      If humans are indeed the only creatures capable of understanding that one day they will die, the belief in an afterlife could be a safety mechanism to enable us to cope with this fact. It sure beats the idea of a kindly bearded gentleman watching over us all from somewhere upstairs.

    • Tedd says:

      09:07am | 29/12/10

      Observer, that fear explains a lot of insularity of religious groups

    • Observer says:

      08:49am | 29/12/10

      Thats exactly right.  As a kid and as a teenager I would wake up in abject fear and tears because sub consciously I was petrified that at the end there would be nothing.  If I constantly had to ponder that thought every waking hour I’d be rendered useless.

    • Jade says:

      07:41am | 29/12/10

      You had me until you started talking about the bible… how you can live your life following a story book written by some random 3000 years ago boggles my mind.

      Anywho… I believe that there is really no heaven that people go to, but our soul goes on to live another life in another body/form or gets trapped here in transit you could say (i.e ghosts).

      Anyway, who really knows. You don’t know until you get there… it would be pretty disappointing to spend your life thinking your going to a magical kingdom in the sky for an eternity of happiness but in reality get nothing of the sort! raspberry

    • Tedd says:

      04:34pm | 29/12/10

      The NT was compiled from lots of stories at the time, and various versions of them - the most popular ones were the ones that fulfilled the OT prophecies, surprise, surprise.  Some popular ones were not incorporated in the canon, such as Gospel of the Hebrews; and some such as the Gospel of Thomas were excluded because they did not contain aligning stories, even tho’ they contained a lot of saying attributed to Jesus common to other gospels.

    • True Believer says:

      04:16pm | 29/12/10

      MelD

      You are closer than you think in your attempt to put down the Bible - it was written for so that the “children of disobedience” might come to realise their rebellion against their Creator is pretty childish and to show them a better, spiritually healthier, wholesome, healing, loving way.  In your Creator’s eyes you are like a rebellious child railing against His love for you.

    • MelD says:

      02:24pm | 29/12/10

      Oh please it was probably written as a story book with moral dilemas, good triumphing over evil etc etc, was probably written for a child who couldn’t do something so a parent wrote this to give them hope, where is the evidence of these giants or anything else in this story book?

    • Nathan says:

      01:34pm | 29/12/10

      “a story book written by some random 3000 years ago”

      That’s such an odd representation of the Bible held by nobody in scholarship - either Christian or secular.

      The Bible is not:

      a) a “story book” - even secular scholars agree that the OT is a code of theology, poetry and law for the nation of Israel, it incorporates stories, but is not “a story”

      b) written by a random - at the very least it is written by many randoms over a significant amount of time. Secular scholarship suggests evolution of religious beliefs and practices was documented by various schools within Israel’s establishment, conservatives believe it was written by Moses - a non-random.

      c) it was not written “3000 years ago” a pretty arbitrary dismissal of the New Testament half of the Bible, and significant scholarship that dates the later books of the Old Testament (Daniel) to about the 2nd or 3rd century BC. You’re out by at least 1,000 years.

      None of your propositions here are in the least bit accurate.

      You had me until that sentence.

    • Ashley says:

      11:16am | 29/12/10

      If there turns out to be nothing I don’t think there will be any dissapointment.  However if it turns out the magical kingdom in the sky is real there is going to be a great deal of dissapointment.

    • Ben says:

      10:29am | 29/12/10

      The sad thing would be all those people who waste large portions of their lives worshipping the apparent gate-keeper. What’s wrong with making the most of our lives as we have them, being good for goodness sake (not because it looks good on the piety scorecard), and not worrying about what happens afterwards? To do anything else is to squander the cosmologically short time we have in the universe.

    • Greg says:

      07:40am | 29/12/10

      You can add me to the atheists as well. You live then you die, and thats it.Their is absolutely no evidence of an afterlife. Its just wishful thinking by humans who don’t like the idea there is just one life.

    • Kika says:

      02:43pm | 04/01/11

      Simon - near death experiences are all part of the brain going through the throws of oxygen deprivation and flipping out because it’s dying. Most people who drown see flashes of light because the brain is losing consciousness. Science trumphs again.

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      04:26pm | 29/12/10

      @ Simon says

      I checked your website reference looking for ‘evidence’ -  but near death experiences is not death itself. It’s like saying I nearly ate pizza and then offering an opinion on the anchovies and cheese at your local takeaway.

      But it was not a total waste of my time. On the positive, I did find a great online store there.

    • True Believer says:

      04:09pm | 29/12/10

      @A Bob

      Could I suggest you extend your reading, not all NDE’s occur on operating tables I can assure you.  Nor do they all occur under medical procedures - they are many and varied.

    • Abe Froeman says:

      11:30am | 29/12/10

      I used to have an innate fear of dying which was only resolved once I did some experimenting with out-of-body-experience. After 22 days of trial and error, I finally had success by consciously leaving my body on two separate occasions. This is evidence purely for my own benefit, and no-one else’s. Any theories about life or non-life after death put forward by atheists or the religious are irrelevant to me, as I already have my own answers. And as a result I no longer fear dying - take from this what you will.

    • A Bob says:

      11:28am | 29/12/10

      Frank, the similarity of NDE experiences can be explained that we all die in basically the same way. The brain will shut down in an orderly fashion as the higher order ‘uneccessary’ cognitive functions get turned off first as all effort is made to keep the basics like breathing or heartbeat going in one last ditch effort to survive. Remember, we are talking about death on a operating table under controlled circumstances, not being hit by a bus.

      Then - bam - we get resucitated in some way and the lights all come on at once. There is no evolutionary basis for being rebooted, it’s not a natural occurence witha smooth, rational sequence. So we come out of a dream-like state where only the ego exists at first with none of the other baggage that makes up the rest of our personality. Hence, we feel ‘fully-known’ and whole, a fully integrated personality for the first time in our lives. It lasts until the other parts of the brain start to function again and than then we are back to the same shitty business as usual of living as flawed, messed up, typical human being.

      There doesn’t need to be collusion, just a commonality of experience that can be explained with as much plausability by our current limited understanding of the brain as by the being in the presence of God.

      The courts don’t put much confidence in the eye witness testimony of people who are awake. Why should be be persuaded to make firm conclusions of someone who’s just had the their hearts started by a massive jolt of electricity?

    • Frank says:

      10:44am | 29/12/10

      The Christian concept of faith is based upon a belief in things as yet unseen or proven.  Faith is also gift.  I have it…but before you all start thinking that I think I’m better than non-believers, I certainly do not.  Please focus on the true meaning of ‘gift’ here.  I did nothing to get it, but now that I do have it, I am in some way more accountable than non-believers and certanly no better than anyone else. 

      Scientists also have something similar to this concept, and they call it a hypothesis.  Of course, scientists want and need evidence to prove this hypothesis.  I do not think that we can prove the existence of God, but then again, there is no need if you look at the real meaning of faith.

      Is it not then futile to expect to find measurable scientific evidence of God when people that believe in him do not require it and won’t be putting effort into proving it?  I think we also need to look beyond ‘measurable scientific evidence’ and look at the testimonies of people who have had ‘near death’ experiences, or NDEs.  We can’t measure these, nor can we really prove them.  We can even try to explain them by saying that a bunch of nerves were seen as firing at a certain time and therefore caused hallucinations. 

      But look at the general message of these NDEs.  Overall, people experience mving into a spiritual dimension, and either come into the presence of someone who they know understands them better than anyone else, they see, and feel wondrous things far better than the best thngs on earth and want to stay forever (in fact his is not surprising, because I believe we were ALL made for heaven) , and/or they see a horrible place that is far worse than the worst thing we could ever experience, and both go on forever. 

      Perhaps there is something there for all of us.  Can I provide scientific evidence?  I don’t think so.  For conspiracy theorists - Surely it would be impossible and unfeasible to have so many people colluding to produce the great body of NDEs we have today.  Requires faith?  Perhaps.

    • Brian says:

      10:07am | 29/12/10

      Near death experiences provide no evidence of the afterlife - that’s why they’re called ‘near death’ experiences and not ‘death’ experiences.

    • Anthony says:

      09:29am | 29/12/10

      @Greg. You accept the evidence of a bloke who ‘saw nothing’ but dismiss the evidence of those who ‘saw lots’ on the basis it doesn’t agree with your already defined position. Sounds like a ‘confirmation bias’ to me.

    • Greg says:

      09:14am | 29/12/10

      Near Death experiences! - artifacts of a couple of kilos of neurons being deprived of oxygen. I think I take Kerry Packers evidence as being more reliable

    • Tedd says:

      08:59am | 29/12/10

      anecdotes about near death, and the hallucinations associated with them are not evidence, Simon.

    • Wayne Kerr says:

      08:53am | 29/12/10

      “There is evidence”

      Ahhh, I read it on the internet, therefore it must be true.

    • Reg says:

      07:38am | 29/12/10

      I’m sorry I couldn’t read beyond this ... well not just yet… “I didn’t get it. Such an important question, with far-reaching implications, but receiving such little interest.”

      Why is it such an important question? It’s not. No more important than, “What were we doing before we were born?” Even the expression, “far reaching implications,” is a value contrived from life, something that ends when we die. Our body may change its state but the fact is that it continues as part of the cycle of life and therefore never dies. It is childish in the extreme to desire that our pouch of chemicals will drift along unchanged. We should be welcoming the adventure of death as part of evolution.

    • Jeff says:

      02:36am | 30/12/10

      @Matthew,

      In addition to what Tedd has said about water, and he is quite correct, Mars does not have a molten centre. It once upon a time probably did, but not anymore.

      And what about this:  Jesus breaks wind and just a few of those gaseous molecules manage to float about in the atmosphere for a couple of thousand years, only to have you breathe them in at some point in your lifetime. Jesus is now in your bloodstream. And don’t get me started on my workmates farting in the office ;D

      I’m an atheist.

    • Tedd says:

      12:26pm | 29/12/10

      Matthew,

      I posted with the water cycle in mind, and doubt your proposition that water leaves our atmosphere.  All water molecules are recycled here on earth, Matthew, many being drunk and passed in animal urine.

    • Matthew says:

      11:33am | 29/12/10

      Tedd, no, it wouldn’t have been part of dinosaur urine.  All the water on earth is actually refreshed slowly over time.  It comes up from deep inside the earth and joins the rest of the water.  Goes in an evaporation/condensation cycle until eventually it manages to evaporate high into the sky and outside of the earth’s atmosphere.

      Which makes me wonder…maybe the ice on mars they found is actually evaporated from earth and lands there rather than being a sign of life on mars.  Or maybe Mars itself bubbles up water from deep inside its molten centre.

    • Tim says:

      10:20am | 29/12/10

      Fascinating question from Tedd, and one I’ve considered myself.  Just imagine where the elements (chemicals) that make up our bodies have been.  From primordial soup to accretion disks to stars to primitive life on Earth and, once our sun dies, back to stardust.  What an amazing adventure.  It’s a shame our consciousness won’t be there to share it.

    • Reg says:

      09:04am | 29/12/10

      Your H2O molecules may even have once been part of Jesus unless of course all those are now floating around in heaven or hell looking vainly for something with which to react.

      If you’re young enough, and it seems you are, they may even have been part of Hitler. Think about that next time you kick the dog.

    • Tedd says:

      08:11am | 29/12/10

      You mean the chemical components continue as part of the “cycle of life” - the ‘cycle of chemical recycling’ -  thus contributing to future life?

      I would love to know where some of the H2O molecules in my body have been (dinosaur urine?)

    • Jeremy says:

      07:24am | 29/12/10

      You don’t have any “evidence”, either (that’s what “faith” is for - arriving at a conclusion without evidence).

      I’d love there to be an afterlife, because the idea of this being all there is is rather depressing. But how do you get past the suspicion that you’re just fooling yourself to avoid facing a depressing reality?

      Funny, isn’t it, that the world is full of religious people of all different faiths, absolutely convinced that theirs is the right one and that everyone else is going to hell. And yet they can’t all be right. Funnily enough, hardly any of them have genuinely considered alternative religions - the vast majority of religious people have picked the religion of their parents and/or the country in which they live.

      And it’s no more rational to say “I’m going to believe every word in this arbitrarily-constructed Bible” than it is to say “If there’s a heaven I think I’ll get there because I’m a good person”. Just because your creed is more complicated and convoluted doesn’t make it more likely to be right.

    • Kevin D says:

      12:37am | 08/01/11

      @Iain Hall says:
      “why does it matter to you as an atheist what gives people comfort at the prospect of their own mortality?”

      Because those comforted people believe that their moral system is the one true system, and that I and everyone else should live my life by their arbitrary creed. In fact many ‘religionists’ (as I have taken to calling them) see nothing wrong with killing non believers of their particular brand of religion, despite their ‘good’ book says it is wrong. It seems that hastening the departure of a non believer to your particular hell is not in anyway ensuring that it will also be your eventual destination.
      For all these semantics that lack of faith requires the same proof as a belief in faith totally fails when you want me to live my life by your set of morals.
      If you want me to believe, you provide the proof.
      If you want to live your life falling asleep in church on Sunday morning, that is your choice, just leave me alone, let me live my life the way I see fit.
      To all the trolls who will follow up, that doesn’t mean I break the laws of our country, but if I want to have consensual sex with 65 men, women (in my dreams) or those in between, then I can do it without your moral carping.

    • Jeremy says:

      10:34am | 31/12/10

      Nathan - it’s a bit disingenuous to pretend that there’s “evidence” for the central tenets of Christianity, let alone for the specific details (like believing that the Bible is God’s Word and its various inconsistent and contradictory rulings must be followed). It’s not simply a matter of believing that Jesus Christ existed - I’ve never seen a Christian Church that doesn’t also require you to follow the arbitrary rules inserted in the Bible by Paul or whoever wrote Leviticus.

      Hall (ignoring your weird fascination with putting my surname here, as if it proves something) - there’s plenty of ways the non-logical beliefs of Christians impact on the rest of us, as we’ve seen recently in debates about discrimination, marriage equality and even preserving the life of a mother in certain cases.

      Religious dogma DOES affect all of us, and often for the worse. Of course we’ll respond to it.

    • Pete says:

      06:14pm | 29/12/10

      @ Nathan. Well put my friend!

    • Iain Hall says:

      03:08pm | 29/12/10

      Jeremy Sear
      why does it matter to you as an atheist what gives people comfort at the prospect of their own mortality?

      I just don’t get why there are so many atheists like you who are determined to upset those people who get such comfort from their faith by trying to brow beat them into abandoning their belief in a God or an afterlife?.
      Live and let live is my motto because no matter how silly a belief in anything supernatural may be surely if that belief does no harm then why go out of your way to destroy it?

    • Nathan says:

      01:26pm | 29/12/10

      “You don’t have any “evidence”, either (that’s what “faith” is for - arriving at a conclusion without evidence).”

      That’s not really a true definition of all faith. Faith, as defined by most reasonable religious believers - is a belief where evidence does not exist. Not a belief arrived at without evidence. They’re slightly more nuanced than most atheists I’ve spoken to are willing to concede. It’s not belief contrary to evidence, but belief where evidence is absent and considered impossible. Christian belief is belief in a particular form of historical evidence - the life of Jesus.

      “But how do you get past the suspicion that you’re just fooling yourself to avoid facing a depressing reality?”

      Choose optimism and hope. I guess. And investigate the evidence - archeologically and philosophically. As well as engaging with the best in scientific thinking and embracing it. It involves a little bit of assuming the best of people - including the writers of the Bible, and paying heed to the genre of the Biblical accounts of history (and the idea that the Bible is theology before it is history - in terms of function).

      “Funny, isn’t it, that the world is full of religious people of all different faiths, absolutely convinced that theirs is the right one and that everyone else is going to hell.”

      Yes.

      “And yet they can’t all be right. Funnily enough, hardly any of them have genuinely considered alternative religions - the vast majority of religious people have picked the religion of their parents and/or the country in which they live.”

      Indeed. This doesn’t necessarily make any of them right or wrong. Though, as you say, only one, or none, can be right. Unless you want to subscribe to relativistic guff, or some sort of suspension of disbelief. Most monotheists are functionally atheists when it comes to all other claims of the supernatural - a handy application of Occham’s razor.

      “And it’s no more rational to say “I’m going to believe every word in this arbitrarily-constructed Bible” than it is to say “If there’s a heaven I think I’ll get there because I’m a good person”.

      Except that one is more obviously the product of your own imagination and without any sense of attestation. The Bible is the product of thousands of years and multiple authors who are startlingly consistent (despite any contradictions you may be able to present - the corroboration and consistency over a lengthy period of time is far more compelling than a handful of largely explainable inconsistencies).

      “Just because your creed is more complicated and convoluted doesn’t make it more likely to be right.”

      No. Indeed. The simplest explanations are usually the best. But where does the line of “good” get drawn? Who says Christianity is more complicated than some sort of good/bad system of merit? I’d say Christianity is more simple. Nobody is good enough and only accepting Jesus works. For anybody.

      Where do you draw a line in a system of grays? I’d say Occham rules out merit based salvation and rules in Christianity.

    • Nathan says:

      01:25pm | 29/12/10

      “You don’t have any “evidence”, either (that’s what “faith” is for - arriving at a conclusion without evidence).”

      That’s not really a true definition of all faith. Faith, as defined by most reasonable religious believers - is a belief where evidence does not exist. Not a belief arrived at without evidence. They’re slightly more nuanced than most atheists I’ve spoken to are willing to concede. It’s not belief contrary to evidence, but belief where evidence is absent and considered impossible. Christian belief is belief in a particular form of historical evidence - the life of Jesus.

      “But how do you get past the suspicion that you’re just fooling yourself to avoid facing a depressing reality?”

      Choose optimism and hope. I guess. And investigate the evidence - archeologically and philosophically. As well as engaging with the best in scientific thinking and embracing it. It involves a little bit of assuming the best of people - including the writers of the Bible, and paying heed to the genre of the Biblical accounts of history (and the idea that the Bible is theology before it is history - in terms of function).

      “Funny, isn’t it, that the world is full of religious people of all different faiths, absolutely convinced that theirs is the right one and that everyone else is going to hell.”

      Yes.

      “And yet they can’t all be right. Funnily enough, hardly any of them have genuinely considered alternative religions - the vast majority of religious people have picked the religion of their parents and/or the country in which they live.”

      Indeed. This doesn’t necessarily make any of them right or wrong. Though, as you say, only one, or none, can be right. Unless you want to subscribe to relativistic guff, or some sort of suspension of disbelief. Most monotheists are functionally atheists when it comes to all other claims of the supernatural - a handy application of Occham’s razor.

      “And it’s no more rational to say “I’m going to believe every word in this arbitrarily-constructed Bible” than it is to say “If there’s a heaven I think I’ll get there because I’m a good person”.

      Except that one is more obviously the product of your own imagination and without any sense of attestation. The Bible is the product of thousands of years and multiple authors who are startlingly consistent (despite any contradictions you may be able to present - the corroboration and consistency over a lengthy period of time is far more compelling than a handful of largely explainable inconsistencies).

      “Just because your creed is more complicated and convoluted doesn’t make it more likely to be right.”

      No. Indeed. The simplest explanations are usually the best. But where does the line of “good” get drawn? Who says Christianity is more complicated than some sort of good/bad system of merit? I’d say Christianity is more simple. Nobody is good enough and only accepting Jesus works. For anybody.

      Where do you draw a line in a system of grays? I’d say Occham rules out merit based salvation and rules in Christianity.

    • Jeremy says:

      12:15pm | 29/12/10

      Well, they can’t all be right in their claims to exclusive access to heaven - but I suppose they could all be paths there, just as simply being a good person could.

      If it exists.

    • Mahhrat says:

      10:36am | 29/12/10

      “And yet they can’t all be right.”

      Whyever not, Jeremy?  Why isn’t your afterlife what you believe?  There are so many religions that are polytheistic it’s ridiculous.  I am quite happy to think that all of our heavens, nirvanas, hells and limbos exist exactly as we depict them.

    • Seano says:

      07:18am | 29/12/10

      What a complete load of bullshit. Atheists are few and far between? You want to get out more champ. And maybe start looking around at the declining numbers in your churches. The day of your superstitions is done, people are no longer responding to your fictional heavenly rewards or your scare campaigns about your fictional hell.

      “my purpose is to urge you to work out what you do believe, and to make sure you’ve got some evidence and ultimately some confidence”

      And the basis in “fact’ for your beliefs is the bible? Please, about as useful an historical document as say Dianetics.

      Education is the key to ending the tyranny of religion. And it shows just how scare of education people of your ilk are with the NSW Libs promising to can ethics classes for fear that children who are NOT attending religion will have to choose between continuing to NOT attend religion or take ethics classes.

      “Don’t go round that last corner blind-folded. The consequences are simply too great to just cross your fingers and hope for the best. “

      I agree that we should do all we can to gain the information to “go around that last corner” with as much information as possible, but the last thing I want are false signs that doesn’t help me one bit.

    • Seano says:

      06:44am | 30/12/10

      @Pete - if you were born here or you take Australian citizenship you’re an aussie regardless of race or religious belief.

    • Pete says:

      06:11pm | 29/12/10

      @ Troy Flynn

      “Born and bred Aussies” are a dying bred my friend. People of Anglo-Celtic origin represent less and less of the Australian demographic with each and every passing year.

    • Tedd says:

      12:42pm | 29/12/10

      Troy,

      They started counting a different way this year and came up with slightly different totals.  They still number around just 1.5% of the population in the region covered by the diocese - Sydney Basin & Wollongong - 60-63,000 out of 4 million.

    • Seano says:

      11:09am | 29/12/10

      Also the education level, the more education the less need for religion and supersition generally.

    • Troy Flynn says:

      10:51am | 29/12/10

      I would be interested to know the background of “the growing Sydney diocese”, I have the feeling that their newly expanded congregation is made up of new immigrants and not born & bred aussies.

    • Seano says:

      09:54am | 29/12/10

      Wow one diocese out of how many? Perhaps you need expand the scope of your “research”.

    • Anthony says:

      09:26am | 29/12/10

      Declining numbers in churches? Perhaps rather than believe the media hype you should actually do the research. Sydney Anglican diocese is growing and had done for the last decade or more.

    • Colonel of Truth says:

      07:10am | 29/12/10

      “The Bible is both the authority and road-sign”
      But where is the evidence that the Bible is in fact authoritative? To use your own words, what evidence do you have that there is a ‘better place’?

    • Brian says:

      01:49pm | 30/12/10

      Well put Paul!

    • Paul says:

      04:32pm | 29/12/10

      So the same authority the Muslims, Hindus etc. would claim?

      It seems to me that is the main failing for “religion” as in idea.
      It’s a simple fact that, at the very least, most religious people are wrong in their beliefs.

      The “best case” scenario for religion puts 63% of religious people in the wrong (and that’s ignoring the factional splits).  That hardly commends “history and personal” experience as a solid basis for ones outlook on the world.

      Personally I can’t see how one can sustain ones belief when faced with the fact that, at the very least, most people who believe what they believe for the reasons you do are wrong. It seems to me that one would have to be awfully arrogant to assume that you are somehow “clued in” to the real truth while those people aren’t.

      The only reasonable and humble belief is that, absent real evidence to the contrary, one should not be subscribing to or advocating a probable falsehood.

    • Nathan says:

      01:13pm | 29/12/10

      I can’t speak for Steve - but I’d say the evidence of the Bible’s authority comes from history and personal experience. You can come to your own decision on the legitimacy of that authority.

    • MrMac says:

      07:00am | 29/12/10

      Statements by fiction writers like CS Lewis or references to donut stores do not provide justification for unsubstantiated propositions from a dubious tomb like the bible or any other doctrinal text.

      How is a “soul” more than thought, more than a notion, or even more than a meme?

    • Jess says:

      09:49pm | 01/01/11

      So MrMac, have you read CS Lewis’ NON-fiction?

      I do recommend it.

      While not infallible, his intelligence and thoughts are incredibly incisive.

    • Nathan says:

      01:11pm | 29/12/10

      Allegory is not necessarily “fiction” though is it? It is social commentary. Like 1984, or Animal Farm. These debates online would be much more fruitful if people were more inclined to pay heed to genre past the fiction/non-fiction divide.

    • MrMac says:

      11:27am | 29/12/10

      CS Lewis is trotted out as some sage as much on his fiction as his non-fiction, and the emphasis on Narnia is as relevant as emphasis on Harry Potter or the works of L Ron Hubbard

    • Jess says:

      09:57am | 29/12/10

      Haha! Lewis wrote much more NON-fiction than fiction!!

    • Tedd says:

      06:51am | 29/12/10

      Bodily death involves brain death and neuronal death upon which neuronal transmission stops.  The end.

      There is no connection between what happens after death and what people have been lead to believe.

    • Matthew says:

      11:12am | 29/12/10

      That’s what I don’t understand.  Everything christians (and probably most other religions) describe as happening is based on human feelings etc.  You have no feelings of pain, hurt, sadness, happiness etc as all your body will be gone.

      If there is something after life, it’ll be nothing like what people describe.  It’ll be like sleeping when you don’t dream.  Is that something to fear?  No, there’s no pain, hurt or sadness anymore.  Unfortunately you might regret your life the few seconds before you die but that’s a reasonably short and limited time.

    • Tedd says:

      09:47am | 29/12/10

      Spirits and souls are unsubstantiated notions, as are ‘a spirit world’.

      Character and personality are more real

    • Matt says:

      09:31am | 29/12/10

      I agree Tedd, that what you “believe” doesn’t matter.

      However we all have a spirit. Some people are very aware of their own and others spirit, others are not. Our spirit grows or diminishes according to our actions. How our individual spirits rejoin the spiritual world after our brains and bodies are dead depends on how we have nurtured that spirit.

      Trying to intellectualise a spiritual discussion is pointless.

    • Dirk Hartog says:

      06:30am | 29/12/10

      Kerry Francis Bullmore Packer summed it up for me when they revived him after his near-death experience: “The good news is there’s no devil. The bad news is there’s no heaven. There’s nothing.”

    • petery says:

      09:30am | 01/01/11

      Kerry packer was a very rich man who believed in nothing but money, and from all accounts was not a very nice human being. i would not expect that person to see anything or any value in an afterlife. His arrogance and money would be no use to him there

    • Jason says:

      11:45am | 30/12/10

      @True Believer - I think it’s widely accepted that life is 100% fatal ;p

    • robert says:

      10:12am | 30/12/10

      Well I have a personal experience I can attest to—and I am a Doctor.
      My father had terminal cancer and was on life support.
      He died—stopped breathing,flatline hearbeat.
      I was downstairs in the hospital-heard that my father “died” but they were trying to revive him.
      After 5 mins-they revived him-I was right at his bedside..
      He told me that “Am I still alive?” I was floating up to the ceiling and I saw the staff working on me”
      Being the sceptic that I am—I immediately quized the staff who was there,what they did and for how long and what equipment they were using.
      My dad described everything in detail—and it all checked out—was like he was in a time warp.
      My dad told me-“don’t worry about dying-you will be going to another place”
      I have to believe him—its the only explanation that makes sense.

    • True Believer says:

      11:18pm | 29/12/10

      Jason:

      Sounds very much like fatalism your atheism. :0)

    • Jason says:

      05:45pm | 29/12/10

      True Believer - atheists do not have “hopes” for what happens after they die.  They do not need them because they have been able to accept mortality and understand that everything ends.

    • True Believer says:

      10:30am | 29/12/10

      @Dirk Hartog

      That is sad to put your hopes on the word of one person without any proof - how do you know Mr Packer was telling the truth? If he had seen hell he is hardly likely to boast about it to the media.

      If you wish to read a little further can I suggest the following site may interest you.  Others have had very different experiences of the afterlife - best to be on the winning side methinks. Happy New Year.

      http://www.bibleprobe.com/nde.htm

    • True Believer says:

      10:30am | 29/12/10

      @Dirk Hartog

      That is sad to put your hopes on the word of one person without any proof - how do you know Mr Packer was telling the truth? If he had seen hell he is hardly likely to boast about it to the media.

      If you wish to read a little further can I suggest the following site may interest you.  Others have had very different experiences of the afterlife - best to be on the winning side methinks. Happy New Year.

      http://www.bibleprobe.com/nde.htm

    • Horse says:

      10:09am | 29/12/10

      attestations are still just isolated anecdotes, and conversions do not add weight to the propostion

    • Anthony says:

      09:18am | 29/12/10

      If you’re basing your beliefs on the testimony of Kerry Packer then perhaps you should widen your reading. There are certainly many others who attest to life after death after similar circumstances.

      Can I suggest the testimony of a man who was an atheist until he died. Ian McCormick. He’s not an atheist anymore!

    • Rossco says:

      06:27am | 29/12/10

      “Of course, there’s the occasional atheist who is convinced that they have no eternal soul that will endure beyond their last breath, but from my random sampling, these are few and far between. “

      You havn’t been talking to many Australian’s then.

    • radaddymaster says:

      09:36am | 30/12/10

      I have to disagree Rossco. Many Australians are ‘something believing’, but as the article suggests the thought and effort put into what that actually amounts to is minimal. And its for good reason. There are so many religious traditions and disciplines floating around, which in many ways contradict each other (although at their most fundamental the concepts are very similar), that in response people generally fall into three categories: 1) they follow their tradition without question, 2) they reject their tradition without question, and 3) they neither holistically reject or accept but search out their own truth.

      Now the first option is usually for those with strong cultural backgrounds and ‘religiously’ religious families. The second is for those who have been so bombarded with contradicitons and anommolies that their immediate reaction is to reject the whole lot of religious, spiritual and mystic knowledge available and accessible on today’s information highways. The final group is where most Anglo-Australians sit, and in many cases, the search only goes as far as ‘Yeh, I’ll have a weird experience that challenges my conception of life and death, I’ll acknowledge it, and then I’ll pretty much wait for the next sign and do nothing because finding the truth is too hard’.

      Which it is, let me tell you. Yes truth is relative, but we’re not talking about subjective truth. To find the objective or universal answers surrounding life, love and death is something that every culture has attempted, but none have never holistically succeeded. That doesnt mean that they havent got an accurate ‘snapshot’ of reality, but understanding something inherently non-human seems to be a very difficult goal for those with a human mind.

      Now dont get me wrong, I’ve tried. I have read over 100 books on related fields, from philosophy to biology to mysticism to quatum physics. And they were very helpful, but my greatest teacher, my personal god, has been the symbolism of my outside experience synchronised with the inside of my interpretative and rational mind.

      And there you have it boys and girls - ‘interpretation is the master key’. Its where the control is for at least this direct experience.

      So in response to what my view is, Im inclined to believe that my ego dies, but my frequency/energy/spirit/essence (whatever you want to call it) cannot ‘not’ exist. This is just a belief though, based on the ‘oneness’ of ‘aliveness’ which is now my current experience. But what that means for definitive answers on life after death, unfortunately as a human i dont believe i will ever be conscious enough to understand it. But thats ok, im too busy dominating and core-fucking this experience anyways….

    • Pete says:

      05:49pm | 29/12/10

      @ sproket - what light of reason? An atheist is no more able to substantiate their belief than a Christian is theirs.

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      04:01pm | 29/12/10

      Steve, “but from my random sampling, these are few and far between. “ Is hardly validation of the number of atheists youmay meet.

      May I suggest you may have biased your own personal survey.

      If some random dude approaches me in a taxi, pizza hut, tattoo parlour - wherever ..  and asks me where I’m going when I die, I’d do a double take, evaluate his murderous intentions and agree with anything he wants.

      Then run like hell.

    • MrMac says:

      12:33pm | 29/12/10

      I agree, Green Goblin.  Soul is a metaphor for personality or character, and is given extra credence by the notion it persists after death.

      Manipulation to maintain the meme.

    • Green Goblin says:

      10:50am | 29/12/10

      Rossco, what’s an ‘eternal soul’ - is it similar to a personality?  A friend of mine was always asking about my ‘soul’ and where did it come from (as well as what happens to my soul once I’m dead)? I always answered that it was my personality and nothing else!

    • Brian says:

      09:16am | 29/12/10

      The most recent good quality study (by Philip Hughes of the Christian Research Association) has those who don’t believe in god now at about 50% of the Australian population.

      You want to get out more Steve.

    • sproket says:

      08:46am | 29/12/10

      the quickest growing demographic of all - those who have seen the light of reasion, and it is so very liberating

    • Matt says:

      05:55am | 29/12/10

      Where will be when we die? The same place we were before we were born - i.e. nowhere. As far as I can tell, this is all there is. Certainly, there is no compelling evidence for any concept of an afterlife.

      Faith may be reassuring to those that have it but I prefer to rely on evidence. When faith-based engineering can build the equivalent of the Millau viaduct, then I will take faith as a guide to human action seriously.

    • Marc says:

      01:06pm | 30/12/10

      @Jason: You misunderstand me. I have no issue at all with the big bang theory. I believe there is plenty of evidence to support it. What I question is the position that says it all happened by itself; that the singularity that later exploded, winked into existence of its own accord, literally out of nothing. I look at the big bang and say that it is completely in harmony with my faith in a divine Maker. I look at the alternative and see an apparent breach in the laws of thermodynamics. I’m not proposing that I am “right” (although clearly I believe myself to be, until strong evidence to the contrary presents itself). My issue is with people like yourself who question my sanity, when I have drawn my own conclusion based on a review of the evidence available (and a little faith), which is no less prove-able than the alternatives.

    • Jason says:

      10:58am | 30/12/10

      @Marc - because the big bang theory is just that - a theory albeit the most popular one.  It isn’t a belief or faith and is subject to constant challenges as science advances.  This alone makes it different from a theological view as it can be reasonably questioned and disproved using logical argument and physical evidence - religions hide from such analysis by using faith as a catch-all.

      If scientific rigor worked like religious dogma we would still be in the dark ages.

      btw - there are a few physically observable pieces of evidence which _support_ the big bang theory.  look up “Hubble’s Law” and maybe cosmic background radiation for a start.  While they do not prove it, they certainly provide better odds than some being saying “let there be light”.

    • Jason says:

      08:10am | 30/12/10

      Because study and personal experience is not evidence, it is hearsay from a subjective point of view.  Perhaps the materials you studied could be termed evidence or stories of your experiences but ultimately there is no compelling evidence for the existence of a god.

    • Marc says:

      07:25am | 30/12/10

      @Jason: “In non-religious circles, strong belief in magical things (for which there is zero evidence) is not called faith - it’s called cause for further psychiatric evaluation.”

      So do you include in this the belief that all of the matter and energy that makes up the universe popped into existence one day, out of absolute nothingness, then exploded, all of its own accord? There is zero evidence for this and absolutely no way to prove it, yet it is the gist of current cosmological thinking. Sounds pretty “magical” to me.

      Why is my belief any less logical and why, in your opinion, does it qualify me for the funny farm, when yours does not?

    • Steve says:

      05:13am | 30/12/10

      Why is it that non-religious people always assume that people who believe in God or an afterlife have no evidence? I believe in God but it’s not based on blind faith. It’s based on a lot of study and more importantly a lot of personal experience. Neither of which can be shared with someone else to convince them.

    • Pete says:

      05:44pm | 29/12/10

      @ Matt, you do have faith, the faith that what you believe is correct.

      You are, after all, not able to provide any substantive evidence to support your claim right?

    • PaulB says:

      01:57pm | 29/12/10

      Faith is over-calibrated hope.

    • Jason says:

      01:17pm | 29/12/10

      In non-religious circles, strong belief in magical things (for which there is zero evidence) is not called faith - it’s called cause for further psychiatric evaluation. 

      I am surprised the author sees so few non-believers as non-theistic secularists comprise around 20% of the population.  I prefer to live this life to the full and not worry too much about the day my number is up.

    • Nathan says:

      01:08pm | 29/12/10

      Faith isn’t belief despite evidence - it’s belief where no evidence has yet been found either way, that’s the way the Bible (Hebrews 11) defines it anyway. Faith and evidence aren’t mutually exclusive.

    • Trent says:

      11:55am | 29/12/10

      Ahh faith, the claytons evidence.

    • Horse says:

      09:49am | 29/12/10

      sense of entitlement is key (to many things)

    • Wayne Fehlhaber says:

      09:12am | 29/12/10

      Matt i definately can not say you are wrong because to be convinced , you would require evidence.
      My own beliefs rest in my faith and my faith does not require tangible evidence to be embraced.
      The physical body which i use in this life is simply a material vehicle hosting my existence . When i die my physical body will decay and become a part of this earth and my soul , which is me , will go to the afterlife which i believe in .
      In short , your body is a temple within which your soul ( you ) exist .
      One does not need evidence to have faith.
      However , i also believe that ALL who lead a good life , without faith , are seen by God to be just as entitled ( for want of a better word ) to enter Heaven . ( our description of the afterlife )

    • sproket says:

      08:45am | 29/12/10

      Yes, as Dawkins says, as far as we know we were quite content to be star-matter in the billions of years between the Big Bang and our birthm and therefore no indication that going back to that state willbe any big deal!

    • PK says:

      05:41am | 29/12/10

      Add me to your random sampling of atheists who don’t believe in an immortal soul. There’s no God, no afterlife - just the universe and a vast nothing after the one life you’re lucky to have is over. Use it wisely.

    • Stephen Hatzman says:

      08:28am | 28/06/11

      I thought you were going to give an elaborate explanation and that was it?  The bible?  Give me a break.  How can so many people base their faith on a guide written by man?  It was not written by god, if so where is he now?  Why are there no updates?  2000 to 6000 year old stories that we are supposed to relate to today?  As much as I would like to believe that there is more than this life, when the electricity stops the lights go out.  There is no proof that humans have a soul any more than a gorilla.  We are 99.9 percent chimpanzee so do they go to heaven or hell?  Think about it.

    • David says:

      05:19pm | 19/01/11

      Rosie,

      “I believe in “bad karma” which is what Julia Gillard has brought upon this country because of the controversial way she gained power to become Australia’s first female, atheist, unwed, childless PM.”

      WTF? - So only wedded, male, Christian fathers are suitable for the Prime Minstership? I don’t like Julia Gillard much more than you do but spitting on her because she is unmarried and has no children makes me think that according to you all women would be married stay at home mums by age 21, pampering to the needs of the superior gender. Talk about setting equality for women back 40 years.

      btw, memories, the ability to experience pain or bliss and conscience are all functions of the brain. When you die, the brain stops to function and decomposes. I do not believe an afterlife is possible without a brain and body to support it.

    • Irene says:

      08:26am | 11/01/11

      Too True… very well said.

    • Kika says:

      02:24pm | 04/01/11

      Add me too please. And Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus. Nobody knows when Jesus was actually born and the timing has a funny coincidence with the northern winter solstice - something important to the pagan europeans of times gone by.

    • Colin says:

      08:07pm | 02/01/11

      Regardless of any religious or other beliefs, I cant help but think that what happens after you die pales into insignificance in relation to what you have done before you die.

    • Einstein Not says:

      07:50am | 31/12/10

      Rosie says: 04:46pm “NBN disagree - too ambitious because of its cost and will need to be updated by the time any Govt will finish rolling it out.” - Rosie, do you realise that Fibre-optic communication is a method of transmitting information from one place to another by sending pulses of light through an optical fibre? Do me a favour please Rosie…let me know when the speed of light is updated!

    • Christian says:

      06:39pm | 30/12/10

      @PJ Edwards   There is nothing better than Almighty God, and He is not pathetic. I am not attacking Rosie. I am just passing on what He has told us, and I will pray for her that she makes the right choice. I will pray for you also.

    • PJ Edwards says:

      02:45pm | 30/12/10

      Christian come up with something better than that if you are going to attack Rosie! Pathetic.

      You maybe the one burning in hell.

    • Christian says:

      01:28pm | 30/12/10

      @Rosie   I’m sorry, but it’s not me or Norm you need to be listening to, it’s Almighty God. You should do so immediately, or you will Burn in Hell for Eternity. The choice is yours.

    • gonzo says:

      12:59pm | 30/12/10

      This thread - and those after - are proof that God exists. Otherwise, why would all of us be so interested in discussing this?

      In other words, why aren’t threads about fairies, leprechauns and pink elephants so famous?

      “If there was no God there wouldn’t be any atheists” - Chesterton

    • Rosie says:

      12:46pm | 30/12/10

      Sorry Christian - too late not listening to you, have taken in Norm’s words of wisdom! Problem solved for me anyway!

    • Brian says:

      12:41pm | 30/12/10

      @ John
      Fair point John.  I was a bit sloppy.  I should have said something like - ‘the lack of reliable and validated evidence for the existence of an afterlife should lead you to suspend belief until some is forthcoming’.

      I did look at Zammit’s website.  In those studies that I looked at concerning the afterlife, it does not seem to me that his conclusions are justified by his methodology and results.  I haven’t had a chance to look at all of them, but it doesn’t appear that his studies have been published in reputable mainstream journals where his methods can be reviewed by expert researchers in the appropriate fields - psychology, neurology, physics etc.  I also cannot find an instance where a study of his has been replicated by independent researchers and peer reviewed.  Perhaps you can correct me on these points

      Until he properly subjects his conclusions to the analysis of independent experts in the appropriate fields, I think we should suspend belief in his conclusions too.

    • Christian says:

      12:10pm | 30/12/10

      @Rosie   I don’t know which branch of Christianity you follow, but I would solemnly advise you not to confuse Christian values with the Hindu notion of Karma. Christians believe in all-powerful Almighty God, and so should you. The Christmas Island tragedy, the floods, and the cricket game results are all God’s Will. He also made Julia Gillard our PM, and we would do well not to question His Wisdom.

    • Sherekahn says:

      10:57am | 30/12/10

      Add me too except for one thing.  It depends on where I snuff it.
      I believe Nature is ‘god’ and we are already in heaven.  It doesn’t get any better than this!
      I’ve asked for my ashes to be placed in a hole in my favourite tree next to our verandah.  When it comes into flower, my family will get solice from the memory and maybe I’ll be able to hear the birds.

    • Rosie says:

      09:51am | 30/12/10

      Norm - Thank you ever so much for those words of wisdom! Much appreciated as it has given me inner peace to how to deal with Julia Gillard the PM.

      It is times like these and people like yourself that makes this world a better and uncomplicated place to live in.

      Thanks again, I shall always cherish those words of wisdom.

    • John says:

      09:19am | 30/12/10

      Brian, all what ‘evidence’???. I suggest you take a look at Victor Zammit, who has had a million dollars on offer to anyone who could prove that there is no afterlife for some time. So far no evidence has been forthcoming. He has, however, collected a vast amount of empirical evidence to the contrary. You may wish to collate all your ‘evidence’, might be a few bucks in it for you, but I suspect this was just another vacuus statement to support the unsupportable.

    • Norm says:

      08:15am | 30/12/10

      Rosie, while you have obviously touched on some very raw nerves re our PM do not forget that God is just as interested in Julia Gillard’s salvation as everyone else. While I agree with many of your comments about her as a PM, I would much prefer see her saved & spend eternity in Heaven than to die unsaved & spend Eternity in Hell. The Bible also tells us that we should pray for people in authority i.e. our PM so that they will govern well.

    • Norm says:

      08:05am | 30/12/10

      PK
      Wisdom is a gift from God & we can ask Him for it.  Wisdom has nothing to do with how intelligent we are. Wisdom is knowing the difference between right & wrong in God’s eyes & choosing right. This explains why people often complain of the lack of wisdom in this ungodly world.

    • Seano says:

      06:49am | 30/12/10

      @Nick - “NO-ONE WILL DIE AN ATHEIST” - Bollocks. The same people who were in many cases brave enough to use their own minds, think for themselves and leave their churches after being indoctrinated throughout childhood with fire and brimestone scare campaigns because they see the lack of evidence for God and religion are suddenly going to become cowards on their deathbeds? Bollocks.

    • Leicester says:

      03:36am | 30/12/10

      To summarize as a believer “If I am wrong about God and afterlife it does not matter If you as an atheist are wrong you are in trouble”

    • Seano says:

      01:24am | 30/12/10

      No one is questioning your marital status Rosie, your sanity on the other hand….

    • Nick Mihaleff says:

      09:38pm | 29/12/10

      One thing to reflect upon “NO-ONE WILL DIE AN ATHEIST”, good luck in your quest to find the truth. Thats all I have to say.

    • Rosie says:

      08:48pm | 29/12/10

      Bless you NicoleG! You a gem for accepting in good faith the teachings of values, morals and beliefs from the old school passed down to you from your dear parents!

      If only the 21st century intelligentsia sect would realize it takes just common sense to know how simple, straight forward and uncomplicated these values, morals and beliefs would stand them in good stead! Instead they waste so much energy arguing people’s life choices to believe in God and an afterlife! We now have 355 comments and still counting! PK’s thread alone has had 40 responses so far, we must therefore understand that it was sheer frustration and the feeling of being taken over that he posted I “piss off.”

      Wasn’t his choice that I “piss off” but had to say it so that fellow bloggers could read what he was on about!

    • Expat says:

      08:41pm | 29/12/10

      Sorry Nicole, but nobody is that loopy. Rosie’s trolling to portray the extreme right as deranged has somehow clearly been a success in your case.

    • Rosie says:

      07:48pm | 29/12/10

      PK what’s the matter??? Did I take over your thread??? My apologises I didn’t mean to. Unlike you but like the writer of the aritcle I am also not an atheist so don’t you think that only the moderator has the right to tell me to piss off by not publishing my comments!

      Who are you to say there’s no God, no afterlife? We do not have to be told by a wanna be intellect that we exist in an universe. It is our God forgiven choice to think what will happen to us after our existence here. You are correct that we are blessed to have this one life and therefore use it wisely. I have done just that and the way I deal with it has very much to do with what I believe in. You have your beliefs and I have mine and let us just agree to disagree. I would like to think that I have the wisdom to use everything in my control to have a happy fulfilled existence, even if it means having a faith and believing in the tooth fairy. I would rather that instead of wasting so much energy arguing the point with you or anyone else that there is no God or afterlife!

    • NicoleG says:

      07:33pm | 29/12/10

      Expat, you must be new around here. They ARE Rosie’s beliefs. Sorry to burst your bubble.

      PK, take your own advice and piss off yourself. Rosie is from the same school as my parents. Values, morals and beliefs. Thank God they passed that on to me. If you don’t like it, tough shit. And you can chuck me in to her opposites of Gillard.

    • GK says:

      06:30pm | 29/12/10

      After death, we will all be in the same place we were before birth.  If anyone is wondering where there soul will be in the year 2500 it will be in the same place it was in the 1500.  Why doesn’t anyone work up this much angst over “pre-life” as “after-death”.  Pretty much the same thing.

    • PK says:

      06:00pm | 29/12/10

      Tim, there is no practical distinction between the absence of belief in the existence of something for which existence is unsupported by evidence, and the belief that it doesn’t exist.  God, fairies and goblins are all mentioned in literature but after thoudsands of years there is no primary evidence. Hence, I conclude they don’t exist.

      P!ss off and start your own thread, Rosie.

    • Pete says:

      05:38pm | 29/12/10

      @ PK. Thank you for sharing your faith.

      Yes, you do have faith, as faith is by definition the belief in something for which you have no evidential proof, which in your case is your belief that “there’s no God, no afterlife - just the universe and a vast nothing after the one life you’re lucky to have is over”.

      So on that note, what makes your faith any more logical or illogical than anyone else’s?

    • Expat says:

      05:24pm | 29/12/10

      I can’t believe you’ve actually fallen for Rosie’s trolling, Nicole. The funny part is that it’s not like the extreme right even need Rosie’s help to make them look deranged.

    • Rosie says:

      04:46pm | 29/12/10

      Why don’t you guys just call me names opposite to Julia Gillard????? Non atheist, married and mother! I won’t mind because that is exactly what I am. As a believer in God, I have made sure I married someone who wasn’t already married to father my children and remain married to him for the rest of my life! What could possibly be wrong with that?????

      For those of you that may think I am here only to mention Julia Gillard’s atheism, unwed and childless status you are dead wrong!

      NBN disagree - too ambitious because of its cost and will need to be updated by the time any Govt will finish rolling it out.
      Asylum seekers - East Timor was a policy when you are not implementing a policy. The boats keep coming and the Christmas Island tragedy could and should have been prevented.

      Need I go on???? Tthe BER, waste of taxpayer’s money because money spent on fancy school halls could have been put to better use in effective teaching of our children. It is one thing after another and have yet to see anything that Gillard has done for the betterment of this country and its people. Gillard is on survial control and that is all she is doing.

    • NicoleG says:

      04:40pm | 29/12/10

      Expat, how wrong you are. Rosie isn’t ‘trolling’, they are her beliefs, that is her opinion and it should be respected. The reason she says it so many times, is because it sure as hell gets the lefties frothing at the mouth. Brings out the worst in them. I love it.

    • Expat says:

      03:14pm | 29/12/10

      As amusing as Rosie’s trolling was the first few hundred times, I can’t help but think that she’d have more success with her attempts to portray the lunatic right as deranged nutcases if she made it less obvious that she’s joking.

    • Troy says:

      03:11pm | 29/12/10

      We “occasional atheists” are probably the only ones who have actually given it some serious thought, which is why we believe this is all there is.

    • Elphaba says:

      02:55pm | 29/12/10

      @Rosie, lol, you’re obviously fishing.  Well done.  Kudos for sounding like a deadset nutbag.

    • Seano says:

      02:49pm | 29/12/10

      @Rosie - even rephrased your comments sound like little more than spite. Although no longer a Christian I grew up ina Christian household and it is my understanding that this sort of smug self righteous and outright mean attitude isn’t exactly going to get you the rewards you seek.

    • Rosie says:

      02:46pm | 29/12/10

      Elphaba, please please read and comprehend! I do not think being an atheist, childless, unwed is something bad I was merely stating the facts in the use of nouns and adjectives about Julia Gillard the PM when I have attacked her in the policies she has announced and have tried to impklement! Everything she has done since she came into power is not to my agreement and that is my perogative. It is people like you that focus on the way I portray the woman rather than what I have to say about the way she governs this country!

      So there go suck on a lemon, perhaps it is you that cannot read!

    • Tim says:

      02:32pm | 29/12/10

      PK,
      you didn’t say you had non-belief in the existence of an afterlife, you said in your own comment:
      “There’s no God, no afterlife - just the universe and a vast nothing after the one life you’re lucky to have is over”

      If you said to me that fairies and goblins definitively don’t exist then yes, I would ask you what evidence you had.

    • Elphaba says:

      02:02pm | 29/12/10

      @Rosie, please read my question.  I asked why do YOU think being an atheist, childless and unwed is something bad.

      You haven’t attacked Julia’s policies, you’ve repeatedly brought up that these 3 ‘adjectives’ are what is wrong with her.  So, what’s wrong with being an atheist, childless and unwed?

      Would she be better at her job if she was married with kids and devout?  Or would she still be a shitty PM?

      Your posts amuse me.  Not only are they incoherent drivel, but you also can’t read.  Priceless!

    • PK says:

      01:43pm | 29/12/10

      dsa of Sydney 9:47am - no I am not sad, lonely and isolated. It’s pretty arrogant of you to make such an assumption about someone who doesn’t share your belief. Furthermore, it’s perpetuating the kind of scary myth believers use to make their kids conform.

      Those who demand evidence of my non-belief in an afterlife - the burden of proof, if any, lies with those who believe in it. If I said I don’t believe in fairies and goblins, would you demand my proof that they don’t exist?

    • Rosie says:

      01:43pm | 29/12/10

      Elphaba - I don’t think it is an abomination when you use factual nouns and adjectives to name and describe the PM who unfortunately is a representative of me and my country!

      As for cricket, please go ahead, fight to join the Aussie Cricket team if it means we will end up 2 all in the Ashes series! It would make me very happy indeed but it won’t take away the “bad karma” the controversial Julia Gillard has brought upon my country! To many things have already happened!

    • Reg says:

      01:40pm | 29/12/10

      Tim, you can’t have a bit each way and expect someone to read your mind… ”  This argument is just as illogical as someone asserting that God definitely exists when there is no evidence to suggest either way.”  Worse even than Gregg’s convoluted Mission Statements or Rosie talking to herself as she washes the dishes.

    • Matt says:

      01:34pm | 29/12/10

      “Australians are pretty confident that ‘this’ isn’t all there is”??!!

      What’s wrong with ‘this’?? Enjoy ‘this’ life while you can, because as far as we know it is the only one we get; to think otherwise is just naive.

    • Elphaba says:

      12:45pm | 29/12/10

      @Rosie, please explain to me why being unwed, childless and an atheist is such an abomination.

      I’m batting 3 for 3.  Score!  Can I have a place on the Aussie cricket team now?

    • Horse says:

      12:22pm | 29/12/10

      Rosie,

      Gillard did not gain power to achieve that label, it is just a consequence.

      Moreover, Rudd contributed significantly to his own down-fall, with grandiose behaviour including a sense of entitlement. Gillard was the best option for the Labour Party, and did not do anything on behalf of atheists.

    • Gregg says:

      11:47am | 29/12/10

      We should remember too Rosie that Julia was having a holiday when we won in Perth.
      Like a non PM taking a holiday ” in the country ” , WTF, and it was Krudd that started this BS and about his arrival that started the Aussie slide, probably him taking cricket sets to the Aussies in Afghanistan didn’t do us good karma either, seeing as it was about winter over there.
      So between those two and Johnnie Wilkinson you’ve got a real axis of evil.

      And they think they might get away with it too but the astromoners have got other ideas for the solar storm activity is supposed to reach a peak in 2012 and that could blow the global fuses on all electronics so the NBN will be just fine not to mention that being the Wilki/gillard year of the Olympics for the Poms.
      But yes, we need to get behind our lads and kick out the administrators who have let this happen for it has not been an overnight aberration and when players start underperforming more often than they are performing throughout even one series, they need to be on notice and that is when a new blood transfusion needs to occur.

    • Rosie says:

      11:34am | 29/12/10

      JulesG - I really don’t care what happens when I die, even if what I believe in while I am on this planet doesn’t eventuate because it will be out of my control. For the time being I am too busy enjoying this life that I have been blessed with and to keep it that way I like to think there is a heaven out there for me without the controversial Julia Gillard when I die.

      Seano - I don’t need patronizing because I am not blaming anyone for their atheism. I believe in “bad karma” which is what Julia Gillard has brought upon this country because of the controversial way she gained power to become Australia’s first female, atheist, unwed, childless PM.

      Gillard’s status are the facts so if you don’t like reading about it stop making me repeat it time and time again!

    • Seano says:

      10:54am | 29/12/10

      @Rosie - I can’t decide what’s crazier; blaming Gillard for catastrophes, floods and the cricket because she’s an atheist or expecting to get into the heaven of your Christian God whilst being so full of spite.

      PS. Kudos for mixing karma in with your Chirsitian superstition.

    • TEZZA says:

      10:43am | 29/12/10

      Me too. Anyone who thinks otherwise is merely delusional, which would be quite harmless if the deluded did not spend their life trying to change things for the rest of us by prescribing rules for behaviour. I appreciate the public holidays though, which I rate as the best thing about religion - that it gives us all the occasional day off (although New Year’s Day and Australia Day are pretty good excuses too, and I note that you don’t have to be a monarchist to appreciate Queen’s Birthday, or a trade unionist to enjoy the Labour Day break).

    • Reg says:

      10:23am | 29/12/10

      I am so upset Lucy. I had not idea it was your tender eyes that were exposed to this. My sincerest apologies. I can’t recall that it was rude though. Are you sure you’re not thinking of someone else? xx

    • Tim says:

      10:22am | 29/12/10

      Reg,
      not religious in the slightest, which is why if you actually read my comment I said that saying God exists was illogical.
      If you make an assertion such as “There is/is no God” or “There is/is no afterlife” then you need evidence to back it up, otherwise it is just your belief.
      Not believing in something is not the same as asserting it doesn’t exist.
      If you say there is definitely no God then you are being just as illogical as those you decry.

    • Lucy Kippist

      Lucy Kippist says:

      10:02am | 29/12/10

      @reg actually, I didn’t post your last comment because it was rude.

    • Troy Flynn says:

      09:57am | 29/12/10

      I worked out religion was a crock by the age of 10, so include me in your atheist list too.

    • Reg says:

      09:50am | 29/12/10

      Gee you’re fortunate JulesG, they didn’t publish my comments because it used the word hateful. And fires of hell.  smile

    • dsa of Sydney says:

      09:47am | 29/12/10

      you must be a lonely, isolated and empty if that is what you believe…

    • Reg says:

      09:45am | 29/12/10

      So what’s this Tim? If we cannot prove that something does not happen, then it does?

      Are you religious Tim? ‘Cos if you are your must be shitting razor blades at ever turn you take.

    • JulesG says:

      09:40am | 29/12/10

      Jeez Rosie! What has this political and dare I say very unchristian assassination got to do with the said article and discussion? The fact that you believe in fairies and other bedtime stories probably gives you a leaning toward the conservatives, I can see that, but the question is, what happens when you die?

    • NicoleG says:

      09:27am | 29/12/10

      Oh Rosie, I love it when you go fishing. It gives me a good, needed, laugh smile

    • Elphaba - cackles says:

      09:05am | 29/12/10

      Your post was hilarious Rosie.  Thank you for brightening my (work) day.

      Those atheists are gonna getcha!  They’re gonna GETCHA!  RUN!!

    • Tim says:

      08:59am | 29/12/10

      Sprocket,
      PK asserts:
      “There’s no God, no afterlife - just the universe and a vast nothing after the one life you’re lucky to have is over”

      Where’s his evidence?
      This argument is just as illogical as someone asserting that God definitely exists when there is no evidence to suggest either way.

    • sproket says:

      08:42am | 29/12/10

      @ Sheldon no proof of no proof of no afterlife therefore there is an afterlife?

      You bought that line of reasoning?

      In that case I have a Harbour Bridge to sell you, after all, there is no proof that there is no proof that I do not own it!

    • Rosie says:

      08:41am | 29/12/10

      Exclude me from your random sampling of atheists, the Julia Gillards of this world, Australia’s No 1 atheist! Thank God, the life I shall have after I die will not include Julia Gillard trying to govern!

      While I am breathing I like to have happy thoughts and one of them is when I die I will have a happy life very similar to the one I have now, happier still because there will be no Julia Gillard to mess up my heaven for me!

      I repeat Gillard has brought bad karma to this country! Before Christmas, the horrendous tragedy in Christmas Island and now floods and the big cricket loss to the Poms we are likely to face! Our cricket win at the Waca was a reminder to all Australians what it could and should have been like if we didn’t have a PM that obtained power in a controversial way!

      I don’t have a barrage of questions of varying degrees of importance. To rent or own? Send the kids to a public or private school? Flat white or latte? To get behind, or completely disown the Australian cricket team?

      I always try and find an answer to any question if I am in control and if I am not in control I leave it alone and completely ignore it! Always wanted to own my house but had to rent first, save enough money and bought, sent the kids to primary public school and mid school to save school fees and then private school in years 10, 11 and 12 for exposure to the so called rich kids and a choice to remain there or back to the public school. I don’t drink coffee and wouldn’t disown the cricket team because we have been in this position before, those concerned worked on it and we came out to be the No 1 team in the world. However, I have disowned Julia Gillard as my PM because of the controversial way she became Australia’s first female, atheist, unwed and childless PM.

      Have a happy new year folks!

    • Sheldon says:

      07:52am | 29/12/10

      And where’s your proof of that?

    • Brian says:

      07:49am | 29/12/10

      Yes, add me too - and just about all of those who I have ever discussed it with - to the no afterlife group.  I suppose I can understand why you might want to believe in an afterlife Steve, but unfortunately all the evidence points the other way.

 

Facebook Recommendations

Read all about it

Punch live

Up to the minute Twitter chatter

Anthony Sharwood

Dementor doing a good job for sweden #sbseurovision

Anthony Sharwood

Ukraine song pinches chord progression from The Verve's Bittersweet Symphony. Fo real #sbseurovision

Anthony Sharwood

RT @GerardDaffy: @antsharwood all the talk over there is the grannies will win.they entered to get a church built,feelgood story

Anthony Sharwood

These peole insult my grandmothjer, who was born in minsk, belarus #sbseurovision

Recent posts

The latest and greatest

Abbott’s crass logic: trash the Parliament in order save it

Abbott’s crass logic: trash the Parliament in order save it

An email was sent to almost every politician in Australia this week saying that someone should cut off…

Our special forces don’t always need special treatment

Our special forces don’t always need special treatment

We admire them, but we’re not entirely sure why. We allow them to operate in the shadows; we rarely…

A good holiday is about unrest, not rest

A good holiday is about unrest, not rest

Like a fat full-stop, it lay in my hand. A small orange – not exactly fresh, but purchased anyway…

Gentle jabs to the ribs

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

A private school girl’s family is sueing her elite, extremely expensive private school for not… Read more

243 comments

Newsletter

Read all about it

Sign up to the free daily Punch newsletter