If dedicating yourself to a job and having a complete lack of elegance is manly, well then - call me Bruce.

Hmm, wonder if I can fit in a load of washing before meeting Betts at the pub for Monday schooners…

Josephine Asher has plenty of support for her argument that men are becoming less manly and women less womanly. Gender is getting bendier. But is that a bad thing?

Once upon a time men and women had much more well-defined roles. Man works. Woman does housey-type stuff. Now such simplicity is only seen in detergent commercials.

Those stereotypes serve a purpose of sorts. They are a quick and easy way to sketch out an idea. But they are ultimately misleading.

Because, as some bright spark once observed, there is greater variation within any human group than there is between them.

In many places in the world poverty, culture, history or religion dictate very different roles for men and women. Religion particularly has played a large role in maintaining a male dominance left over from prehistoric times when muscle was king so man was boss.

But, in most Australian societies, the chains that bind some traits to men and some to women are loosening, if not broken. Not to sound all postmodern, but the neat little gender boxes have been opened, and the
contents strewn around.

Women haven’t become more like men. Men are not becoming more like women. In a more free society, both are just free (er) to be themselves without having to satisfy preconceived ideas of what it
takes to be a bloke or a lady.

One of my favourite shows this year, in a car-crash-trash-can’t-take-my-eyes-off-it kind of way, was Ladette to Lady.

It was so wrong. Disturbingly feral chicks urinating in gutters and flashing their bits at strangers, taken into a British finishing school to become ladies.

They went from wrong to wrong (er). Learning to make bland small talk, sit with their ankles crossed, to make dainty cakes to keep men of dubiously regal lineage happy. That was success.

It was hugely entertaining, but hideous because it implied that it was a male prerogative to drink too much and act like a dimwit, while it’s a female’s place to simper and sip tea.

Damn it, women have earned the right to fall over drunk without having their female-ness questioned, surely. And men like tea, too.

Feminism – which some rail against as a strident denial of the feminine - started as a way to right a wrong. And it did.  But now it has mostly mellowed and become a broader, less well defined idea, which blends at the edges with more general arguments about human rights and fairness and freedom.

The residual notion is, or should be, about equal opportunities. Not triumphalism or adversarial gender politics. Just a fair shake of the sauce bottle.

To say that women need to be like men to be equal with them is a gross oversimplification. Not least because no one is perfectly equal.

Equality is a sort of Platonic ideal, an unreachable but noble and worthwhile goal. The idea of equal implies a race with a strict starting point and a definitive end point. That’s not how life works.

In my world, I go out drinking while Bloke cooks dinner. Sometimes. Sometimes he watches soccer while I cook, and sometimes I get the takeaway on the way home from my soccer training.

He takes out the rubbish bins because I’m shit scared of the spiders that lurk around the handles. I’m tougher than him when it comes to chilli and horror films. Is that equality?

It’s a new world, and we’ve been released from the strictures of our biology in many ways. With that freedom comes new angst, new dilemmas, new challenges, and we’re still working our way through those. A surfeit of choice brings
its own difficulties.

But to seek safety and comfort by retreating to stereotypes is tedious and meaningless. There is no point clinging to past ideas of what women or men were. We are, tautologically, what we are now.

Anyway, must dash. Got to shave my legs and pluck my eyebrows before soccer. Wouldn’t want my femininity questioned. Cheerio!

59 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Eric says:

      05:26am | 29/11/10

      Equality is not equivalence. Men and women differ radically.

      At the most basic level is genetics. The human genome differs from that of the chimpanzee by around three per cent. The male genome differs from the female by 1 in 46 chromosomes.

      These biological differences account for differences in size, strength, lifespan, reproductive role, brain structure and behaviour.

      While it is true for example that some women are taller than some men, overall more men are taller. Likewise, while some men live longer than some women, overall men die younger.

      Feminism has chosen largely to deny the inherent differences between men and women, but that doesn’t stop them being real.

    • KH says:

      06:44am | 29/11/10

      What? There are physical differences between men and women? Wow, way to state the obvious there…..........some of us prefer to use our brains than let them stagnate in a kitchen.  I will always stand up for that, no matter how many apes get in the way.

    • Lazy Jesus says:

      08:07am | 29/11/10

      KH, where do you go that you have apes getting in your way? From the evidence I have been presented, the zoo does a sterling job of keeping the animals locked up.

      I don’t see what your issues with simians have to do with this discussion.

      If you live in a jungle I respectfully withdraw my comments as I don’t have any experience with them in their natural habitat.

    • fairsfair says:

      12:32pm | 29/11/10

      @KH what about women who do genuinely want to be in the kitchen? Some people choose to embrace the differences Eric highlights and others choose to high jump them. You clearly choose the latter but how dare you say that is stagnates the brain. It may stagnate your’s but in complete opposite to Tory’s headline you are the one doing the turning - on your own gender. Why the f* can’t people just realise that we are all different and need the choice to do what we want? We had that for a brief moment in time (thanks to useful feminism) but now we are faced with women who think they are a failure because they want to be a housewife (thanks to judgement by other women) and then other women who feel they have to do it all. All the while men have been sitting on the sidelines doing a big WTF. They don’t know where they stand and women don’t know where they want to stand them. Each to their own I say. I respect all other’s lifestyle choices and do what I want. Stop being so afraid of judgement and make you life and the relationships in them the way you want them to be.

    • Chase Stevens says:

      02:27pm | 29/11/10

      Who is up at 5:26am to comment on this? I mean srs? Not to say it’s not worth commenting on but what the hell man.

    • Eric says:

      03:27pm | 29/11/10

      @KH: You should read what I actually wrote, not concoct some imaginary whackiness about apes.

    • alice says:

      04:58pm | 29/11/10

      @eric, I’m going to go ahead and assume that the chromosomal difference between men and women make men more closely related to apes than women.

    • Reg says:

      09:37pm | 29/11/10

      So what’s wrong with being closely related to apes Alice? You do mean Chimpanzees don’t you, but your slip is forgiven.

      You seem to know Eric, tell us about chromosome 13 isn’t it? The one in the human make-up that is unique by having an end piece in the middle and one part is pure chimp. I prefer to celebrate the similarities anyway rather than the differences between the genders. Probably because I have daughters whom I love dearly.

    • jim morris says:

      06:18am | 29/11/10

      More trivialisation of a hugely important subject. Love makes the world go round but it also gives value to women. In this artificially safe world that exists of late women have no need for protection or even co-operation with a male partner; what used to be known as a husband/father to the offspring.
      The glue that stuck the male to the woman and her children was the basic male biology of sexual attraction upon which other things grew, such as devotion and willingness to risk all to protect.
      Since women have become just men-with-tits the natural response of the male has diminished, “Look, a women with a flat tyre. No, musn’t bother, got a hot pizza, the footie is on, and I can have a quick wank before bed.”
      It won’t be until things get tougher that women will regret breaking the age old bond between the sexes.

    • KH says:

      06:47am | 29/11/10

      I can’t imagine ever regretting being able to change my own damn tyre.

    • marley says:

      07:08am | 29/11/10

      Never been that keen on bondage, myself.

    • bec says:

      09:11am | 29/11/10

      I don’t know how you managed to make bondage sound boring and tedious, but congratulations, you did it.

    • NEFFA says:

      11:58am | 29/11/10

      most men these days have tits. (thanks obesity) maybe you should say men with vaginas?

    • Ray Graham says:

      06:47am | 29/11/10

      Tory, I wrote a lengthy response to Josephine, so no point in re iterating the obvious.

      However for women of supposed intelligence to write such drivel is beyond comprehension. There never has never will be be a claim for equality from feminists; read ‘women’ as they all distance themselves but then ruthlessly use feminism and its social gains to castrate men, particularly husbands, through one of the many forms provided by hijacked legislation. That is the agenda not equality.

      What you now have is a bitter attitude towards women by men because men have had a gutful. The only thing saving grace women have is you know what; wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Without it women would be forced to re-assess their game plan. Disrespectful yes, but you make your own bed so women can lie in it. They ‘can’t stand the truth’ in true Jack Nicholson form.

      If you don’t believe it, I would say it is the topic of discussion at every club golf event where men have their freedom of expression. Sometimes it is not pretty.

      I married 37 years am stuck in a marriage because the solicitor enquiries after my wife scarped once, made it very clear I would be castrated by thee family court for just being male. Go pick up the pieces. So as I said from any golf day discussions you will find men are stuck in unhappy relationships because of the law. It is the ONLY retrospective legislation ever documented. Ie not the rules under which I was married.

    • Fiona says:

      08:38am | 29/11/10

      So that’s why you hate women, Ray…

      So when you say you want to be governed by the rules under which you were married, what you actually want is: you get all the financial assets which you’ve worked hard for, and your wife gets nothing as she’s not worked (or certainly a lot less if she’s spent time at him looking after the kids). Her contribution to the family of cooking, looking after kids, cleaning and generally caring for the household is something she’s done out of love, not something that counts as a financial contribution. Housework doesn’t pay for a mortgage!

      Of course, she’ll have to take the kids to look after - you’re working too hard to be able to look after them - and anyway, it’s a woman’s job. But, you don’t want to have to keep paying to look after them - they’re her financial problem now!

      Thankfully the courts split up assets, and not you, or womens shelters would be fuller than they already are. And it’s not retroactive legislation since it governs divorce, which you probably weren’t intending when you got married 37 yrs ago.

    • Jotun says:

      11:03am | 29/11/10

      Fiona, I am sure that you may think our man here is just being selfish, but the reality for this man is a lot different to what you think will happen.

      Firstly, they’ve been married 37 years. Mum won’t be looking after the kids methinks.

      If you think the courts just split the assets in a perfect 50%, you’re joking. If a couple own a house, it will generally be their most valuable asset by a fair margin. Since the court can’t give half to one or the other unless they’re selling it, one gets the house, almost always the woman. Especially if she gets custody of the kids, which happens 95% of the time.

      In any divorce case and in the Family Court, they will do everything in their power to rule in the woman’s favour. I know this, I’ve watched it happen firsthand to my parents.

    • NEFFA says:

      12:28pm | 29/11/10

      have you ever considered Ray, that you are in an unhappy marriage because you are a major tool and your wife hates you?

      Maybe if you tried a little harder to give something to the marriage other than cash, you may find it easier.

    • Ray Graham says:

      07:07am | 29/11/10

      Furthermore Tory the most condmning enidhtment of our social initiatives at the behest of feminism is education.

      Once again in the name of equality we have tampered with egalitarian educaton to advance girls ahead of boys with culpable intent. Similar ring to broader gender equality; exclusively promote one group and undermine the other. That a society can accept by their own means that one group enters university ahead of another at a ratio of 3:2, well it is a society in delusion. Those with the convenience of memory fade will of course deny this action

    • marley says:

      07:10am | 29/11/10

      I wonder, Ray, did you feel as outraged when the ratio was the other way around?  If not, why not?

    • KH says:

      07:40am | 29/11/10

      Your comment, which was (just) readable, the system as it was was most certainly not ‘egalitarian’ as you put it - when you consider that many universities didn’t even confer degrees on women until well into the twentieth century, and it is still only recently that more career options than ‘secretary’ or ‘nurse’ opened up for most of us.  As an aside, your stats conveniently ignore trades,  which is where you will find the vast majority are men - universities aren’t the only place to get career qualifications.  Despite this, I can’t find any university policies that demand they have more women entering than men - selection is largely based on secondary school scores.  The only groups that get special treatment to bypass the system seem to be minority groups (women are not a minority).

      The statistics on women after university is a little more disturbing - just 38 percent of women with degrees are in full time work - compared with 90 percent of men (http://researchreview.unimelb.edu.au/2010/study-shows-mismatch-between-women’s-education-levels-and-workplace-participation) - the fact is, that even in today’s world, women still have to take on ‘family’ duties, whilst men can have it all - well, why couldn’t you, when there is someone else to do the cleaning/cooking/child rearing, but you can still have that nice family photo to help further your career - and yes, it helps men, but is a stone around the neck for womens’ careers…....I see the evidence every day - I work in IT where there are a lot of women starting out, but now, in my 40s, I see very few of them in full time work, and 98 percent of the management are men. 

      So you found a statistic that more women than men enter university - now show us where the ‘advantage’ is, because I’m not seeing it…....

    • Ray Graham says:

      08:26am | 29/11/10

      KH did you read what I said about denial? Its the school education that has been conveniently tainted with preference to girls,. As I said if you can’t see that you are in denial.

      You’re off the beat if you start talking trades. eg the mining disasters even war in Afghanistan where all of our fatalities are male. The university qualification gives you saloon passage to the higher paid, superannuation heavy paper shuffling jobs that women dominate in Federal, State and local government, finance, teaching and other flexible work hours. Try the 70 hours a week for tradies in the mines to match the aforesaid incomes. In the governments there IS quotas, affirmative action with promotion of women written into job description and performance assessment of executives.

      Example of the trades. ACT Electricity advertise 6 apprenticeships 4 for boys 2 for girls: 200 applicants by boys and 6 by girls. So odds for boys at 25:1 for girls 3:1. So you can see that appart from university women have thew odds if they wish to pursue a trade. Also self assessment for apprentice of the year with the boys told to vote for second as a girl will be given the award. Check it. My son was an apprentice.

      You old girl are part of the problem of entitlement mentality that jetisons all reason. Sorry if you can’t read and can only roll out the feminist folklore that has never really been challenged.

    • Tim says:

      12:02pm | 29/11/10

      KH,
      If that’s the case we should definitely be changing the system so that more men go to university.
      Why are we using scarce resources to educate people who then go on to totally waste that education by removing themselves by choice from the workforce?

    • marley says:

      03:07pm | 29/11/10

      @Tim - you’re assuming the value of a university is strictly in preparing someone for a lifetime in the workforce. I’d like to think it’s also about perhaps producing literate, informed, reasoning adults.  Those skills are not to be undervalued, especially when it comes to raising children.

    • Liz says:

      07:08am | 29/11/10

      None of this adresses the real problems real men and real women are having in relationships wiht each other.It’s afight to the death out there!

    • TChong says:

      07:15am | 29/11/10

      Numerous properly constucted double blind surveys shows that men and women from similar socio economic backgounds, in similar present circumstances , react exactly the same.
      There is no part of our society where any aspect is exclusivly male or female.
      There are just as many decent caring , sharing ultristic men as women,
      just as many complete and utter dirt bag women as men.
      Men and women are as good , and bad as each other.

    • Adam Diver says:

      08:09am | 29/11/10

      Any links, sources or futher explanation of the experiments? if not, then I have 20 years of observations that says different.

    • KH says:

      08:15am | 29/11/10

      Agree with this - the way men and women do the same things can be different, but it doesn’t imply either way is more right than the other - just different.

    • TChong says:

      09:12am | 29/11/10

      Adam I dont know ,  ( and hope you dont )  think you are better , or worse than females, but I hope ( for your sake, too) that you are NOT bound by the old doctrine that women are only damned whores or gods police.
      But please, nominate the area in which ALL women will react one way, and ALL men another way.

    • BK says:

      12:03pm | 29/11/10

      @KH

      Read the original post again.

    • Ray says:

      07:44am | 29/11/10

      No Tory re, your blog title; we’re just turning on each other. Great society.

    • marley says:

      08:26am | 29/11/10

      Well, yes, I’ve always been “turned on” by the opposite sex.  And hopefully, I’ve done a bit of “turning on” too.

    • Aman says:

      08:07am | 29/11/10

      The greatest thing feminism delivered to me was not having to buy the cow.

      I’m a very fit male in my 30s earning 6 figures. I’m free and active. I do what I want when I want. I can fix things, too.

      But I don’t have to be shackled to a nagging bore that withholds sex to get what she wants and no longer does the cooking.

      Women will realise that they can’t rely on their salary from being the office admin girl or writing fluff for some rag but I won’t be interested in saving them. My money is for me. There is no longer the social compulsion to get married.

      Maybe I’ll marry when I turn 50 and want children. By then I’ll jangle the keys to the European sports car and find some hottie half my age. All my assets will be locked away in a trust so that the family courts can’t get near them and they’ll be paid off so in the event of a breakup I’ll get custody so no maintenance payments.

      Feminism has benefited me greatly. But it has ruined society.

    • bec says:

      09:14am | 29/11/10

      Yeah yeah yeah. It wasn’t even that good the first time it was posted; I don’t know why you bothered a second time.

    • Shar says:

      09:42am | 29/11/10

      Ah, how the mighty fall…...............

    • marley says:

      12:07pm | 29/11/10

      Do bear in mind, when you’re dangling the keys in front of the “hottie”, that older males are at rather high risk of fathering autistic children.  So all that lovely loot of yours may not be quite as invulnerable as you think.

    • Feral Wombat says:

      02:22am | 30/11/10

      Marley

      I don’t disagree with anything else that you’ve said here, but I am interested in your claim that “older males are at rather high risk of fathering autistic children.”

      The link between mother’s age and incidence of autism is well established. I am aware that some studies have purported to show a link between father’s age and the incidence of autism. But to my knowledge most of those studies didn’t correct for the age of the mothers. So if older fathers were more likely to be married to older mothers then a finding that the incidence of autism increases with the father’s age may be simply based on a statistical trick rather than any causal link.

      As far as I am aware, studies that have corrected for mother’s age have shown at most only a very weak correlation between father’s age and the incidence of autism. Autism is often described as a lack of social skills or an inability to socialise. I don’t think that it’s unreasonable to consider that men so described may tend to father children, on average, at a later age than the general male population. A genetic component in autism (or even common environmental factors causing autism in both father and child) could then easily be misread as a weak causal link between father’s age and the likelihood of the child developing autism.

      So the evidence of a causal link between father’s age and incidence of autism is unconvincing. The evidence of a link between the major risk factors (mother’s age and exposure of mother or child to environmental toxins) and the development of autism is overwhelming. Some claim that the mother’s age is only relevant because older mothers have had longer to accumulate toxins in their bodies and therefore pass on more toxins to the developing foetus. Once again, the statistics must be read cautiously. Even a strong statistical link does not prove causation.

      As for Aman, the possibility of autistic kids is the least of his problems.

    • marley says:

      12:58pm | 30/11/10

      @FeralWombat - well, I confess I’m no expert on autism, and also that I was making a bit of a cheap point.  That being said, though, I have read a few articles lately that did suggest a link between father’s age and autism. One in particular suggested, as you say, that the risk of autism increases with the age of the mother; however, it also found that the age of the father has a fairly significant impact when the mother is under 30, but less so when the mother is herself older.  That would cover Aman and his future progeny rather nicely!

      And, as you say, he has other problems…

    • BB says:

      08:36am | 29/11/10

      Tory on Ladette to Lady.  - “Disturbingly feral chicks urinating in gutters and flashing their bits at strangers, taken into a British finishing school to become ladies.” -  then they go to a place to learn basic respect and manners and it is described as   -  “They went from wrong to wrong (er).”

      As Ethel would say - I weep for society when individual extreme-bogon behaviour (of either gender) is promoted as more ideal than respectful because the author has a perverted viewpoint of empowerment.

    • bec says:

      09:24am | 29/11/10

      Yes, emphatically yes.

      I don’t know why people would want to limit their activities, ambitions and interests just because of their biological sex.

      Why wouldn’t you want other people to do what makes them happy if it’s legal and doesn’t hurt anybody else?

    • Eleanor says:

      01:48pm | 29/11/10

      That reminds me, the other day I saw on sale at Woolies an all pink, proceeds-to-the-breast-cancer-society gift pack on sale. Its contents?

      A washbucket, scrubbing brush, gloves and cleaning cloths. Just what I always wanted!

    • bec says:

      02:24pm | 29/11/10

      My, how I would swoon to receive that as a Christmas present this year!

      I lie: I asked for a whipper-snipper and hedger. Do I need to hand in my LadyCard now?

    • Jayne says:

      09:28am | 29/11/10

      My favourite of your pieces Tory, well said. We are each an individual person and neither man nor woman should feel restricted because of their gender.

    • Brimstone says:

      09:33am | 29/11/10

      As a guy who can’t fix things or fight wars or do any of that masculine bullshit i’m glad gender roles are changing….

    • Gladys says:

      10:25am | 29/11/10

      As a watcher of Ladette to Lady and the Australian version, I can’t disagree more with Tory Shepherd about the goal of the show.

      Those young women were taught not to drink themselves sick. They were put in social situations where alcohol was available and tested to see if they could learn to use alcohol in a socially responsible manner.

      Some failed. Some suceeded. But the one girl who stood out was the one who was asked by the cooking teacher (the larger lady with glasses, as opposed to the thinner ladies with glasses) to go home and work on her problems outside of the school.

      When they reunited several months later, that young woman thanked her profusely.

      We can muddy the watery line of gender all we want. Dads can stay at home. Mums can go off and earn a fortune.

      But someone has to take the roles and they have to be clearly defined. If they’re not, then it’s just bad news for everyone.

      But at the end of the day, we should ridicule good manners and socially acceptable behaviour.

    • Dave says:

      10:58am | 29/11/10

      Feminist Spin. The idea that modern feminism is about “equality” is absolute rubbish, the author is clearly out of touch. Modern feminism is about anything but equality. The feminists I know actively pursue an agenda of power and domination over men. Portia Degeneres proves this in spades.

    • marley says:

      01:26pm | 29/11/10

      Just how many feminists do you actually know?  I know quite a few, and most of them have plenty of respect for the men in their lives (fathers, brothers, partners, sons, friends) and very little for Portia Degeneres.

    • Ray Graham says:

      01:50pm | 29/11/10

      Marley if you are an example you’re deluding yourself.

      Like all women you claim care and respect etc for your fathers, husbands, sons; and your actions prove precisely otherwhise. I really think you delude yourselves. when the choice comes you turn on them with a vengeance or blithely continue to pursue all ideals that suit your own cause without concern for others. Boys and girls in education is the succinct example. What, is it down to evolution that girls outperform boys to clinical extremes. Or is it with culpable social intent, that memory fade convenience allows us to forget.

      And if you pick up general discussion this is a blood sport for Australian females.

    • marley says:

      03:19pm | 29/11/10

      @Ray - “and my actions prove precisely otherwise?”  Pray tell, what actions would those be?  What have I personally done to turn on someone, anyone, and pursue my ideals at his expense?  You don’t know me, but you think you an make a judgment about me based on nothing but assumptions. 

      And by the way, your comments (and those of your mates at the club) are far more in the nature of “blood sport” than anything I’ve said.

    • Ray says:

      05:01pm | 29/11/10

      You are female Marley. All covered with the same spots when the acid is on. Superficial is a word that comes to mind.

    • marley says:

      06:34pm | 29/11/10

      @Ray - let me get this straight.  You have no idea who or what kind of person I am but you have decided that I’m a female and therefore superficial.  And this is what passes in your world for deep insight and analysis?

      I don’t think you’re in much of a position to be calling anyone at all “superficial”.

    • Ray Graham says:

      09:38am | 30/11/10

      Marley, unless you are inaccurate in your pronoun selection your history of writings defines you in the manner I have described; No1 being female. That doesn’t require deep insight or analysis.

      The real point is that the subject of ‘feminism’ is an appalling endictment that causes reasonable humans to be offeensive towards one and other. I’ll put my hand up if you will, but won’t hold my breath waiting. Feminism is an abomination on civilised society. People can quote the hackneyed folklore of the past which is patently misrepresented to suit a cause. My experience was that men of the past always had respect for women, and women respect for men. Sadly the tool of feminism has changed that for ever.

      May be I can explain that over the last 15 years of my senior level mangement in the Federal Government I was subject to and witness to relentless affirmative action that made me feel unwelcome in my own workplace. The fact that I had children being educated and heavily dependent on me right through to their university education denied me the opportunity to risk employment change. I had to suffer accelerated promotion programs for women, mentor programs for women (by me in some cases), quarantined jobs for women to aid the aforesaid, senior executive assessment marked against achievement of promotion of women, promoted women disappearing so the males were the constant, responsible for contract administration, liaison and execution, women only workshops, women only job selection panels and above all offices wallpapered with sexist pro female objectives. To gain promotion a male would have to outperform a female by 20% and then have no guarantee..

      Consequently I am still wounded by women’s preparedness to accept such bias in the ideology of their own advancement and blithely stride forward taking all before them.

      I am still guarded in personality by the inhibition this creates and frankly hold women in contempt because of an inability to be free and open because of such insipid indoctrination.

      Please think of this before you roll off further comments that show total disregard for fellow humans. I still have an underlying gentleman’s approach indoctrinated in me from the 50s and 60s which I doubt many women of today experienced. Women would rather focus on some other hocus pokus about men being at the pub for 6 o’clock swill or not wanting to be with children (rather working), or women denied jobs on marriage(try one income spread to all families as the reason). I resent that feminism has taken away my enjoyment of the world, particularrly towards women.

      I am subsequently sickened when women feign concern for their sons, husbands, fathers, grandfathers etc when those persons are the least of their concerns in a ruthless dissemination of men through the feminist doctrine. To offer some olive branch after culpable intent to bring down everything male does not hold water. In fat it requires a reality check.

      Cheers

    • marley says:

      01:55pm | 30/11/10

      @RayG - you warn me not to “roll off further comments that show total disregard for fellow humans.”

      This is right after you’ve demonized one half of humanity one half of the human race, with massive generalizations, over-simplifications and superficial analyses based on your experience in a single workplace.  This is also right after you’ve said that you “frankly hold women in contempt.”

      Well, Ray, I challenge you to produce anything I’ve ever said which shows as much disregard for my fellow humans as the statements you’ve made on this thread.  But I’m not holding my breath.

    • Ray Graham says:

      02:46pm | 30/11/10

      Marley at the risk of endless repetition may I reiterate to you that 48% of the population is held at ridicule as a culturally embedded blood sport fro women. You know it, and the truth sometimes is hardest to swallow. Also you’re dreaming if you think you’d ever turn a male on. A tap may be. Their radar would pick you from afar. Doesn’t mean they wouldn’t satisfy your physical desires even if you don’t turn ‘em on. Most men are not like that, their chivalry would kick in. Chivalry in not denying or putting themselves above the damselles needs. You can then wake up feel guilty and claim assault. Guilty until proven innocent. Like most women you are a self appointed expert on things, anythings, like autism for example( ie if your interpretation suits the cause).

      And even in education it was never ‘the other way round’. A select few went to uni and women didn’t work any way. Once again men never had the choice. Then was not like now with clinical intent to promote women and subvert men. You can sit high on the hill of social dominance and cast your indifference. But your time will come and I can’t see men being so generous second time round. Although some men in power have used feminism to cement their own position at the top by eliminating genuine opposition.

      As for ‘fellow humans’, that’s pretty loose use of the English language.

      The point is I won’t whinge because women have made that an art from that I could never replicate.

      That’s the difference dear. Men get on with it while women procrastinate the warm and fuzzy. I said once before this is an engineering type critical path that gets the job completed. I’ve never known a woman who could prioritise. Multi task without focus on the critical, then have a flush.  Irrelevence, like feminist ideology. It is just a discard.

      But there is no problem, in a quiet time, pointing out what a fabrication feminism is, conceived in hate and contempt, while women hang their life upon it in a backwater to knowhere. If you doubt me research G. Greer’s feeling towards her father. Charming.

      There is no good reason why I would go from absolute adulation of women to my present state of disrespect. It is simply not able to return scorn with good will. I’m not alone in these opinions but hey, don’t stop to consider. Wallow in your own conceit. It’ll be lonely.

      I would prefer the other way around

    • Ray says:

      03:06pm | 30/11/10

      The point is Marley feminism has given women everything and taken everything away from men. Yet women are not gracious enough to absorb men’s inclusion in society. While you hold all the cards women don’t need to worry and certainly won’t, nor relinquish one ounce to accommodate inclusion. It will lead to anarchy.

    • marley says:

      06:33pm | 30/11/10

      RayG - I see very little point in continuing this discussion.  Your anger and bitterness is not something I care to deal with.  I have done nothing to you, or to anyone, to warrant the opprobrium.  If you choose to see people in terms of rigid stereotypes, and not as the individuals we all are, then that is your loss.

    • Drew(Darlinghurst) says:

      12:58pm | 29/11/10

      I think people get confused between “SEX” the biological and “GENDER” the social construct.

      Lets move beyond Gender stereotypes ....then and only then can we move forward

    • Dave D says:

      04:11pm | 29/11/10

      Well, you do look a bit manly

    • jane wallace says:

      05:53pm | 29/11/10

      men are becoming less manly and more saintly as the sea eagles have not won the NRL Premiership since 2008 whereas the dragons are the 2010 NRL Champions.

    • Servaas says:

      11:37pm | 30/11/10

      Before deciding whether men are less manly and what women are becoming shouldn’t we first define what manly is? In this article it seems that for some the definition of a man is someone who gets really drunk and do silly things and that if a woman does something similar she has become more manly? Here is for instance Robert lewis’ definition of a man: “A real man rejects passivity and takes responsibility to lead, provide, protect, and teach expecting to receive the greater reward.”

      I know it might be a bit too much for some of the boys around but being a man or a woman has certainly very little to do simply with ones eating, drinking and farting habits.

 

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