We should not accept drunken violence as normal

Jolanda Challita says:

07:29am | 29/08/09

At the moment alcohol is used as an excuse to claim diminished responsiblity so those who need to use it to their full advantage.  Make it so that if you are drunk and you commit a crime you get punished double, for being drunk and for committing and crime and you might start seeing a drop in alcohol related crime.

East coast concert productions says:

10:25am | 29/08/09

honestly, a 12 pm closing time is quite adequate, we are going later and later for all the overseas visitors and lets be honest, not that many visitors stay out any later than 10 pm however the poor staff, the security, the bands, the sound and lighting people, the dj,s, and not to mention the poor people getting bashed and harrassed by these drunken louts, and of couse the police who have to be doubled and tripled in some instances to cope with these problems, and who is benefitting from these late nights, some greedy bar owner and of course the drug dealers who are the only ones not paying anything for this all night problem that keeps re occurring every friday and saturday night…..

Paul says:

10:44am | 29/08/09

Legalise some more socialable drugs for starters. Why tax the rest of us for drunken stupidity? If this behaviour was fueled by Ice you would be kicking down the manufacturers doors. Why should you then give a free pass to the cashed up alcohol manufacturers, who delighted in getting kids hooked on stimulant- laden alcopops so they would drink longer and buy more?  And then wholly blame the users? Sounds like you are starting to mix an unhealthy cocktail of politics AND policing. You sure Labor didn’t put you up this, with at least 2 state elections up soon and an otherwise incompetent and desperate Labor, trumpeting Tarzan calls of ‘tough on law and order’? Logical.

Grant Bell says:

11:39am | 29/08/09

No way should such behaviour be accepted or tolerated as normal. It is irrational, brought on by a disproportionate minority & can have far-reaching effects….for victims, perpetrators, friends & family on either side, reputations for any of the above as well as for venues and a city that aspires to be vibrant, colourful, safe & inviting, culturally aware & forward looking. Nodding our heads yet allowing the staus quo is just not on.

I’m fast running out of patience for those that harp on about freedoms being eroded….the ‘nanny state taketh over.’ Such voices or groups need to remove their heads from their simple, self indulgent interests to consider what really matters for the greater good - yes, have a good time, be a part of that vibrant, colourful social fabric but don’t become a slave to alcohol & its attendant effects. One punch can spike a ‘good night out’ in short order with many left with the clean up, the consequences, an outpouring of grief already too numerous. May a reveller’s own reality check not come by way of seeing an irreversible hit to someone they care about.

G says:

11:48am | 29/08/09

People People,

Can we take a breath here. 

Do not allow yourself to be so easily polarized by Steve Fielding and others in to join in the rush to believe that there is epidemic of drunken fueled raging violence consuming our streets and destroying the moral fabric of our society.  It is simply not the case.

The Australian Governments Institute of Criminology’s statistics do not back up these kind of assertions, and the claims being made here are not evidence-based. 

Steve and others here have a responsibility to the public and should not be forming policy based on a ‘feeling’ and inciting moral panic.

EJ says:

02:40pm | 29/08/09

There’s only three steps to solving this: 1 Increase penalties to a jail term of six months where the offender will be given in depth counselling including having to watch horror films of road accidents & glassing victims.  2 Venues must close at midnight. 3 Put the driving license back up to twenty, & only those youths who still have a clean record able to get that much valued license. The biggest problem we are facing though is our weak & gutless politicians.

mark says:

03:05pm | 29/08/09

There should definitely be laws against being drunk in a public place. Some areas in our cities are no-go zones now because of the huge gatherings of drunken peolpe. Not only does it infringe on the freedoms of peolpe who do not drink to excess, but it is a serious health hazard for the participants, it clogs up our public hospitals and costs us alot of money in colateral damage. If people want to get smashed on booze, do it in the privacy of your own residence.

Terry Wright says:

05:10pm | 29/08/09

G (11:48am | 29/08/09) - I like your style. We need to be rational ... take a breath, step back and analyse what’s really wrong. For far too long we have relied on politicians enacting laws that “feel good” without any real facts. Everyday, we see or remember the carnage that these decisions have caused. e.g. invading Iraq because of their WMDs and links to terrorism, the “War on Drugs” which caused more problems that it fixed, 6pm closing for pubs, not providing condoms to HIV/AIDS infected countries because it would encourage promiscuity, the stolen generation, not funding needle exchanges in the US and Sweden, abstinence only sex education in US schools, jail for homosexual activities, Apartheid,  etc. All of these “feel good” decisions were not based on evidence or reality.

Andrew, how about we be smart and for once overlook the personal agendas of politicians. How about we bring in the experts and apply our vast scientific and social knowledge to find an unbiased, practical and humane solution? Keep the religious right at arms length and ignore the sensational seeking MSM especially those smarmy, ultra right wing opinion piece writers. Forget the loose-arse far left who will want utopia on a stick or nothing at all. Ignore them all and rely on that pinnacle of human achievement ... pragmatism. I don’t know what it will produce but it is more likely to work than a, “for god’s sake ... think of the children” strategy or another knee-jerk reaction to a supposed “epidemic”.

My pragmatic suggestion would be to put a lot more police into nightclubs and popular bars. Both undercover and uniformed cops mingling in with the crowds. They could be pleasant and approachable which might just rekindle the image of police being there “to serve and protect”. A dedicated squad of undercover cops who know the bartenders, the bouncers and the regulars. Ignore the drug users as they rarely cause problems. Ignore the venues that are slack with certain non essential regulations. Focus solely on keeping the peace and ridding the venues of troublemakers. Just the mention that the cops were at a certain venue should deter a large percentage of fights. A visible presence once in a while might just do wonders.

Why should we punish those who don’t deserve it. Cutting back hours and services is just unfair. Some people like going out until 7am and some people cannot even comprehend it. There’s no right or wrong here and no one should push their preferences onto others.  Raising the price of alcohol might deter many problem drinkers but it also penalises the average drinker. Increasing prices is a raw tool and might work for the core population but as prices rise, you are left with the more determined drinker who will probably never adjust their drinking. Of course, high prices will also fuel a growing black market. At this point, a more targeted strategy is required.

And how about we stop the charade about binge drinking. For most people, this is the fun part of alcohol and all those who harp on about responsible drinking, just admit you like getting sloshed every now and then. It’s not a sin. Binge used to mean a real bender for possibly days at a time but now it means more than 4 drinks. That means there’s a hell of a lot of binge drinkers out there. I understand the need to readjust our drinking culture and redefine consumption levels but for the current generation it will be hard to accept that binge drinking now describes just a big night out. And that’s the crux of it. We are planning for the future where hopefully the next generation has more mature drinking habits.  Setting into motion a practical way to address alcohol related violence. A strategy that will be long term. Lowering the the total alcohol consumed but not taking away a pleasure that has been enjoyed for thousands of years.

Cedric says:

05:41pm | 29/08/09

I’m 87 years old and I have a question for all of you. How come we can send a man to the moon yet we still can’t develop killer robotic police ?????

Matt says:

06:08pm | 29/08/09

I agree with Andrew’s comments, living in the centre of Sydney you soon learn not to be on the streets on a Saturday night especially George St near the cinemas / World Tower and Oxford St due to the drunken roving brawls, random group assaults and stabbings. It would appear that we have lost our grip on the values of humanity and community with many seeing drinking on a night out as a right to menace, abuse and assault complete strangers. The only note of caution that I would suggest to Andrew is that we still have a police force that regularly engages in arresting innocent bystanders, targeting soft targets as they are fearful of dealing with real offenders, fabricating charges and evidence, engaging in “scrum downs” and creating witnesses to ensure that they are still able to obtain a conviction against those people they have arrested who have not committed an offence. There is a strong culture within the NSW Police to engage in these practices and they are widely taught at the NSW Police Academy.

Anthony says:

06:17pm | 29/08/09

Dunno about robotic police, Cedric, but Kevin07 sure has some robotic politicians…

pbrooks says:

06:24pm | 29/08/09

Strange article. Andrew, are you a member of the Family First party? Also, if you can’t provide evidence of increased violence then YOU are creating public mischief through spreading community alarm.

Michael says:

08:18pm | 29/08/09

You’re police force is corrupt and incompetent, there lies the problem.

Craig says:

08:27pm | 29/08/09

Harsher penalties are the only answer. Same goes for people who are intoxicated and disorderly in public. Fines should start at a minimum of $10,000. While it may seem excessive, nothing hurts more than money being taken out of your own pocket and will hopefully teach people to be more responsible with alcohol.

Martin Kennedy says:

09:34pm | 29/08/09

Re: Terry Wright; I could not agree more with Terry’s thoughts on this, now only if the powers that be could remove the dramatic fanatical nutter element and start focusing on providing real world solutions based on balanced views some good old common sense.

fed up with drunk idiots says:

10:21pm | 29/08/09

Anyone found guilty of assault (drunk or not), should be forced to spend 24 months worth of week-ends, on their hands and knees, in 12 hour shifts, scrubbing the footpaths outside of pubs and clubs with a nail brush and a bucket of soapy water. If you want to spill blood on our side-walks, you can friggen well clean it up. Failure to attend punishment is the full term jail sentence for assault, no parole! Where alcohol is concerned, diminished capacity does not exist. Alcohol problems are self induced.

Bob Higgins says:

11:22pm | 29/08/09

Violent crimes in society are dealt with by laws that should be upheld by the police - maybe someone is not doing their job.

watto says:

07:37am | 30/08/09

The NSW police force, or more accurately its leadership, does nothing to inspire trust or dialogue with us ordinary people. Once you were respected public servants, now I get the impression you think you are better than us, and that us average joes are a bit stupid. Respect and cooperation is a two way street.  Someone mentioned robots: while there is humour in that, there is truth to it too.

ShaneO says:

10:26am | 30/08/09

I’m with you Cedric!

I saw a movie once called ‘Robo Cop’ They turned a half dead copper into a kick-arse cyborg. I imagine if he was patrolling the streets of Northbridge our drunken violence problems would be solved overnight!

There was also this other giant robot with missles and gatling guns. But it had problems walking down stairs so would not be so good in two storey pubs/clubs - more work required!

PS I know this is a serious issue but my (and Cedrics) ‘solutions’ are more practical then the rubbish being suggested by some respondants!

Pablo says:

12:50pm | 30/08/09

I see some of the same old arguments pop up. Its all the fault of the POLICE or it’s leaders, just as with global warming, the world finacial crisis and the fall of the roman empire . I have an idea, lets do away with them, lets get these robot vigilantes out there or better still, lets give every citizen the right to bare arms, thus been able to protect themselves from any evil doers out there .. I’ve lived in this great city for over 36 years and not once have I had reason to misstrust the police, but then again I’ve never asaulted , robed or held anyone up , and yes I have drank on a night out and occationally had one or two too many , go figure.

Dick says:

05:25pm | 30/08/09

My own personal experience with late night street violence went like this: I was visiting a mate and his girlfriend in Melbourne. We crawled a few bars one night and then, in a completely unprovoked attack on Swanston St, had the shit beaten out of us by half a dozen blokes.  My mate had his nose broken and I had my head repeatedly kicked in by the whole group of them (the headache lasted a week). Immediately after, we tried to report the incident to a couple of cops near the scene, and they weren’t interested.

When my mate reported it a week later (his first opportunity after nose surgery, etc.) the cop who took the report said that it sounded “suss” - the implication being that either he’d made the story up, or that we’d started the fight.  When he pressed for CCTV footage, the cop casually told him that the scene was in a “blind spot” - pretty convenient and amazing given that we were in the centre of Melbourne.

In the end, I harbour worse feelings for the cops than the idiots who bashed us.

http://dullsvillain.wordpress.com

Chase Stevens says:

09:53pm | 30/08/09

I wonder if anyone has done any research into why people *seem* to become more violent with alcohol involved? Is it the drink making them more violent? Or perhaps it is there social background and with their inhibitions lowered these people are more likely to commit these violent acts.

Jake the Muss says:

10:10am | 31/08/09

Actually no WE are not ALL accountable.  The only person accountable and responsible for alcohol related violence is the perpetrator of the violence.

Personal responsibility is the name of the game.  I will not accept collectivism or blame for something I have not committed.

http://www.pimpinforfreedom.wordpress.com

Craig says:

12:32am | 04/09/09

If you are so concerned about alcohol related violence Mr Scipione then start producing some statistics.  How many high risk intoxicated people were detained for their own safety or the safety of the public by Police last weekend.  The ‘Move on’ directions by Police do not prevent bashings they only move the location of the bashing.  Wake up, Policing is suppose to be about crime prevention not move on and commit your crimes elsewhere.  These current Police policies have been in place now for a number of years and it is about time the spin stopped and the existing softly, softly Policies were scrapped.

The amount of Police observation cells have been reduced in the City of Sydney to two only.  This is totally inadequate.

I have heard the Police spokesman for alcohol related issues say, “Police cells is the wrong place for intoxicated persons.”  This statement is political spin because a Police cell is exactly the right place for an intoxicated person who is displaying aggressive or violent behaviour.  This type of intervention by Police would prevent high risk persons committing crime or being victimized by it.

The reality is because of Duty of Care issues Police have to retain a ratio of Police to Prisoners in the cell complex.  If there are too many prisoners Police car crews are called off the street to man the cells which impacts on Police numbers on the street.  This needs to be addressed because currently this issue is preventing Police from removing high risk intoxicated persons from the community before they assaul some one.

It is time to stop the spin on this issue and hand the power back to the Police to take decisive action on our streets and regain their street credability.

Elias says:

02:17am | 04/09/09

Drunken violence is due to a lack of class and discipline in Australian society. The problem is further exacerbated by stupid laws and regulations which close certain sections of pubs early thus herding patrons to more crowded spaces or onto the street. If you combine this with the fact that clubs and pubs do not provide their patrons entrees or snacks like in Europe then you have a recipe for disaster. Our society is also quite rigid, we work 5 days a week and don;‘t go out at all as nothing is opened on weekdays ie cafes etc. As a result people unwind and vent all their frustrations on a weekend. Its a joke!

Stephen says:

07:38am | 04/09/09

Kevin Rudd’s NOT a wowser?  Really?

Jyps says:

11:11am | 04/09/09

I agree with Andrew - this behaviour is NOT normal. When behaviour like this begins to spill over into society and endangers others then that is when others will step in and start doing something about it. The drunks cannot expect everyone to sit back and take it - these drunks are taking other peoples lives, for goodness sakes! It does not get any worse. The alarm bells should be ringing in everyone’s head! We gotta problem here!

Life is not about getting drunk and harming society. Once again, this is NOT normal and should not be accepted as the ‘Norm’. If life is so terrible for some that they need to go drink themselves stupid then they should do it safely at home or go and get some help. And if anyone around them cares for them - help them out so they don’t become a menace. Finding the real underlying reason as to why they are binge drinking would be the first step in resolving their issues because then they would be able to fix whatever is bothering them and then they would no longer have any reason to binge drink and harm others. I am just referring to those people who are binge drinking and harming others as a result.

This is not about those who enjoy a few drinks and have a laugh then go home without beating someone up. These people I find to be the ‘Norm’, normal, appropriate and acceptable. Well done to those who have enough pride and decency to not allow themselves to get to the state of violence.

At the end of the day, it is a personal choice as to whether you want to be a good or bad citizen so we have no one to blame except ourselves for who we are and what we do and I’m sure you all agree that you are the only one in charge of your thoughts and your bodies.

Maggie says:

07:34pm | 04/09/09

the so called “diminished capacity” acutally refers to people who are mentally not able to be help fully liably for a crime. It has nothing to do with being drunk. In order to use intoxication to decrease punishment you have to be pretty drunk. Like if you can stand and make coherent words then you don’t get your sentence reduced for being drunk. Increasing the penalty won’t work if people don’t think they will get cuaght. we need more police at clubs and pubs and around the streets at night.

Rebecca says:

01:22pm | 16/10/09

We need to educate students - over and over again - about the very unglamorous effects of binge drinking. They believe they are bullet proof; the boys believe it is only girls who leave themselves open to rape and STD’s. The effects of binging on alcohol - long and short term need to be demystified and clarified to teenagers who presently perceive binge drinking to be cool and a badge of social success.

Rebecca says:

01:23pm | 16/10/09

We need to educate students - over and over again - about the very unglamorous effects of binge drinking. They believe they are bullet proof; the boys believe it is only girls who leave themselves open to rape and STD’s. The effects of binging on alcohol - long and short term need to be demystified and clarified to teenagers who presently perceive binge drinking to be cool and a badge of social success.

Neil whose sister's a cop says:

04:27pm | 17/12/09

The Operation Unite thing was a good idea - my sister participated in it actually, but I think it should be every weekend.

Kevin says:

06:38pm | 18/07/11

Why only educate teens and students Rebecca?  Doesn’t adults also binge drink?