As the carbon tax starts to make its way through the legislative process, the Federal Opposition and peak business groups like the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, the Australian Industry Group, the Master Builders Association and others claim our economy or their part of it will be ruined by a price on carbon.

The clean lines of China. Photo: ChinaEnergySector.com


A similar view was apparent at a recent Oxford-style debate organised by Tom Switzer, editor of the conservative Spectator Magazine Australia.

The topic debated was “is a carbon tax needed to combat global warming”.

On the affirmative side was myself, John Hewson and Mark Latham. On the negative were Lord Nigel Lawson, Prof Ian Plimer and former Labor MP Gary Lyon.

We were told to expect a ‘sizeable’ anti-carbon tax audience among the 450 people but it was still surprising how anti-carbon tax the audience was. Before the debate a poll was taken. Of the 450 in attendance, just 2 per cent supported a carbon tax, while 90 per cent were opposed and 8 per cent undecided.

A key concern voiced by the audience - and Australians more generally - was why a country like Australia, with just 2 per cent of global carbon emissions, should do anything that would inflict a cost to our economy without any apparent benefit.

These people generally view any actions on carbon emissions by Australia as purely symbolic, much like Australia’s 0.5 per cent troop contribution to the Iraq war in 2003. 

However, this is not the case. Australia actually needs a carbon price for genuine, practical reasons to maintain the strength of our economy into the future.

CEO of BHP Marius Kloppers, the world’s largest mining company and one of Australia’s biggest coal producers, touched on this this when he called for Australia to “look beyond coal”.  He recognized that the coal age will not end for lack of coal, in the same way that it was famously said, the stone-age did not end for lack of stones.

It doesn’t matter how much stuff we may have in the ground, if the world markets are moving against it, it will stay there, unused, unsought and, crucially, uneconomic. As the world inevitably prices carbon pollution, coal will become more uneconomic.

Coal will not be uneconomic next year or even in five years. However, staying with coal is like exporting typewriters to a world demanding iPads.  We will miss bigger inevitable future economic opportunities by protecting high-carbon interests. 

The fact is Australia can’t ‘look beyond coal’ without pricing carbon pollution. It doesn’t matter how each of us views the scientific evidence for climate change; the world energy markets have already moved on and are pricing carbon. It would be economically dangerous for us to avoid, neglect or ignore this trend.

According to recently released global UN finance figures, there has been $30 billion more investment in clean energy (solar, wind, hydro, geothermal and biofuels) than fossil fuels every year since 2008. China is now the world’s largest investor in clean energy, spending $48 billion in 2010, nearly double that of the United States.

For the first time, clean energy in China is expanding faster than coal. This is not to suggest there is more clean energy overall (far from it), but over the last few years, despite flagging international climate negotiations, the worldwide shift to pricing carbon pollution is happening.

It is happening because there is more wealth to be generated, better health and greater economic opportunities to be found in cleaning up the world than polluting it. In the long term, human innovation and technology is more powerful than any commodity we dig up. 

China doesn’t need a formal carbon price to move its economy because Beijing directs the flow of clean energy investment into the provinces - as it has done since 2009. However, in Australia we don’t live in a planned economy, we live in a market-led liberal democracy where a carbon price/tax is the only way to meaningfully shift the economy at least cost. 

A carbon price reduces emissions and promotes innovation to commercialise clean technology to supply domestic demand. These innovations will improve our comparative advantage in supplying and exporting new, clean technologies to the world.

At the same time, it needs to be recognised reducing carbon emissions will not be disastrous for our economy. Britain, the nation who invented coal use, has had a number of carbon taxes since 1993.  A fossil fuel tax in 1993, a climate change levy in 2001 and EU imposed carbon price in 2005. 

In response, energy shifted from coal to low carbon technologies. Carbon emissions in the UK dropped 15 per cent since 1990, yet the economy grew over 50 per cent.  To service this new economy some 900,000 workers are employed in Britain’s $260 billion clean technology sector, positioning them to service a growing global clean technology market.

No single country can solve the world’s carbon problems but new low-carbon technologies could expand our international economic and environmental opportunities.

Dr. Zhengrong Shi developed a new efficient solar panel with leading Australian researchers at the University of New South Wales in 2000. 

Without a price on carbon and little domestic industry in Australia, he moved his business to China with Chinese government backing.  Suntech, Shi’s company, has now exported some 3,000,000 of those Australian developed solar panels to more than 80 countries around the world. Suntech has annual revenue of some $3 billion, while Dr Shi is now one of the richest people in China.

No matter how small Australia may be, our ideas and technology can potentially change the world. 

We still have low-carbon innovations coming from our universities and CSIRO without a carbon tax. But to capture a slice of the multi-trillion dollar clean technology market, our ideas must be commercialised in the marketplace. 

A carbon price creates that marketplace. It would be the spur for our best entrepreneurs, engineers and designers to develop and commercialise clean technologies.

If we don’t price carbon emissions, we protect high-carbon interests (like coal) from a world that is starting to price it anyway. This form of carbon protectionism is not in our economic long-term interest.  Interestingly, after the Spectator Australia debate many in the audience changed their minds on introducing a carbon tax.  Support for it climbed from 2 per cent to 17 per cent. 

Most interestingly, 41 audience members who opposed the carbon tax completely changed their view after hearing the arguments.

That is why we need to move away from the slogans to an open and honest discussion on the big issues to give the arguments enough time to be heard and for people to understand.

Most commented

253 comments

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    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      05:58am | 15/09/11

      Dude, you are TOTALLY ignoring one of the major arguments against Australia’s version of the carbon tax, in that it is yet another ALP wealth distribution mechanism. 
       
      I will pay through the nose and my money will be used to make dole bludgers, low-income workers, blow-ins and other assorted ALP voting riff-raff feel better about a carbon tax.

    • nihonin says:

      06:59am | 15/09/11

      Tony of Poorakistan says ‘I will pay through the nose and my money will be used to make dole bludgers, low-income workers, blow-ins and other assorted ALP voting riff-raff feel better about a carbon tax’.  I think this is the crux of the problem, I work 11 hr days and 6 hrs on a Saturday, I’ll end up paying, while someone else who doesn’t, but spends their time drinking, watching tv or playing on a gaming console for the equivalent hours, ends up being paid.  I’m all for doing something, but not when it’s based on what you earn, it should be one in all in.

    • Disraeli says:

      07:38am | 15/09/11

      Pay through the nose? Best check your facts.

      It’s not a tax on individuals. The carbon price is by bigger businesses, to the extent they can’t reduce their emissions.

      To the extent that costs do flow on, it’ll add about 0.7 percent to prices. Average cost to households: less then $10/week.

      About 8 million households will get some help in covering any cost flow on, by way of tax breaks and benefits.

      Then there’s small business:  tax breaks for them on upgrading their equipment, etc. More: http://www.cleanenergyfuture.gov.au/small-business/

      Anyone who does actually want to know the likely costs and rebates for their own household, can easily check for themselves here:
      https://www.cleanenergyfuture.gov.au/helping-households/household-assistance-estimator/ 

      Very useful summary, for all.

    • B says:

      08:12am | 15/09/11

      @Disraeli

      I have checked.  My assistance is $300.00.  I get hit with an extra $750.00 in costs per year and this is the MINIMUM???  Why exactly am I paying for your idealogcal goals?  I don’t believe this tripe, yet I am expected to pay for it.

      I dont find it useful at all.  It has just proven what I have been suspecting all along.  Wealth distribution.

    • dovif says:

      08:24am | 15/09/11

      Disraeli

      stop regurgutating Gillard’s lies, it is not the coal power plant that is going to pay the carbon tax, they will pay it, and then charge their consumers, meaning all Australians will pay it

      As for how much it cost, the Greens has already said that the price will be ramped up and will need to be increase substantially for us to meet the 2020s target. so for the 2012 “Government estimate” it will be .7% ie about $360 a year, and it will increase substantially every year.

      Add to the fact that a lot of trade expose industry are not going to be compensated. Ie we can buy books overseas without the carbon tax, while if we buy australian books, there will be a carbon tax. The lost jobs in Australia, will led to higher unemployment

    • Gregg says:

      08:24am | 15/09/11

      @Disraeli,
      What the flow on costs will be is all just modelling and conjecture, and then if you can claim all services that are going to cost more have been included in economic modelling, how come they did their modelling on $20/T and not $23/T.
      Just how effective is it anyway to introduce a tax that is going to cause at least 500 companies to have higher direct costs and many more with flow on costs and then to attempt offsetting the flow on.
      Why will the government not provide a nominal list of the 500 countries.

      And then what happens when carbon emissions drop and the tax revenue drops or will the government be forever adjusting the tax/tonne upwards to compensate.

      How many people will have to be employed to administer this tax system and they will really be productive types no doubt.

      Hopefully, we’ll have a new government soon enough to undo all this BS.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      08:29am | 15/09/11

      Disraeli
       
      again, your figures only paint part of the picture. The costs will be passed on to the consumer and only SOME of them will be compensated. It will be taking yet more money from those of us who earn it and giving it to those who don’t. No wonder we have so many people happy to sit on the dole or not bothering to improve their job prospects. Every time we get an ALP Government, they get more money from those who DO work hard. Why should they bother bettering themselves?

    • dovif says:

      08:35am | 15/09/11

      Ben said

      Coal will not be uneconomic next year or even in five years. However, staying with coal is like exporting typewriters to a world demanding iPads.  We will miss bigger inevitable future economic opportunities by protecting high-carbon interests

      Lets look at the facts on what is happening in Europe, they have an ETS which has cost them 10s of thosands of job (EU figures to get support for a carbon tariff)  Which has almost bankrupted most of their economies, see Spain, Ireland, Portugal, Italy.

      Lets look at the “Economic Opportunities that they have got? Solar Panels are made in China, because it is cheaper to make it there without an ETS. Wind power is almost bankrupt, their main power source is Nuclear, which the ALP won’t persue.

      Please do some research before posting garbage on “Economic opportunities”, look at the Economic devastation in the EU first

    • MarkS says:

      09:07am | 15/09/11

      @Disraeli
      Assuming your figures are correct & I dispute them. It still means that I pay around $520 a year extra & receive $3, yes the princely sum of $3 as compensation.

      So I am paying though the nose for more useless social engineering.

    • DocBud says:

      09:26am | 15/09/11

      @ Disraeli

      Companies do not pay any tax, this is even recognised by the left leaning New Economics Foundation:

      http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/we-cant-look-beyond-coal-without-pricing-carbon/

      On page 52 of this report you will find the following:

      “However, in reality, VAT, like any other tax on a corporation, will be paid by some mixture of its customers, employees, suppliers, and shareholders.”

      One way or another we shall lose, through higher prices, lower wages or reduced returns on investments, including super funds.

    • Maree says:

      09:34am | 15/09/11

      Mark S: Agree. Initially that might be the impact. However, more importantly nobody has yet addressed the multiplier effect of the carbon tax and compensation rates over say the next 10 years. I also note the inserted picture in this article showing the envornmental vandalism which shows the ugly mindmills doting the chinese landscape.

    • pete says:

      09:40am | 15/09/11

      Could not agree more with nihonin,  labor a party that believes in getting people in work, but screws you if you earn to much.

    • RyaN says:

      09:41am | 15/09/11

      @Disraeli: sorry mate, I too checked your links and found that I will also be a victim of Labor communist redistribution of wealth through this scam we call the carbon tax.

    • Disraeli says:

      09:45am | 15/09/11

      Modelling - Liberal claim:
      “Labor’s economic modelling of the impact of the tax on ‘‘families, pensioners and businesses’’ used an estimated price of $20 rather than the actual price of $23 ‘‘so from the very beginning, Julia Gillard’s claims about how much the carbon tax will cost have been flawed and deliberately under-estimated’‘.

      Fact: “But the Treasury modelling to estimate price impacts on families and businesses did use the $23 starting price.  Longer-term modelling of the macro-economic effects of the tax used a $20 price.”
      http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/coalition-distorts-facts-in-campaign-on-pollution-charge-20110912-1k639.html#ixzz1XyMhrbZl

      “Gillard lies”
      On costs and benefits I’m sourcing, as noted, freely available public information on the Carbon Price from the relevant official source . So spare me the hysterics, thanks.

      “Your figures”
      See above. Not *my* figures. The officially available source.

      You can check the costs and benefits for yourselves at
      https://www.cleanenergyfuture.gov.au/helping-households/household-assistance-estimator/

      Whether you like the result or not is up to you, though if you look at the information, its plain that its only households well above average income that will pay more and get less back.

      Paying through the nose? I don’t think so.

    • andye says:

      10:29am | 15/09/11

      During the Howard years, tax cuts were for the wealthy. Interestingly, it was Reagans tax cuts for the wealthy that started the USAs slide to its current incredible deficit. Reagan’s argument was that a “rising tide lifts all boats” Somehow giving tax cuts to the wealthy will help everyone.

      This has never actually worked.

      On the other hand, what do tax cuts to the poorer workers do? They help business. The lower income people spend a much larger percentage of income. Wealthier people lock it away in investments and property. Tax cuts that lead to more spending are actually good for our economy, they keep money flowing through it.

    • fml says:

      10:32am | 15/09/11

      Haha look at all you mugs complaining about your back pocket, why dont you just work harder!

    • Disraeli says:

      10:35am | 15/09/11

      I very much doubt that Ryan is “sorry”, and he’s certainly not a mate of mine. The Communist jibe is just an habitual worthless swipe.

      9 in 10 households will get some combination of tax cut and direct benefit to help cover the cost of living impact.

      In 2012-13 there’ll be almost 9 million households. About 8 million households get some assistance. Of those, about 6 million will be at least fully covered for the average impact, and of those, over 4 million households will in fact be better off.

      The cost/benefit estimator is there for anyone to use and check for themselves. 
      https://www.cleanenergyfuture.gov.au/helping-households/household-assistance-estimator/

    • Gillard is a Liar says:

      11:06am | 15/09/11

      Disreli

      Stop lying

      The Gillard model is that 40% goes back to industry, 40% goes back to consumer, and 20% goes back to government Slush fund. That means the public and companies will be at least 20% of revenue raiseed (36billion) worst off, This is to pay for government departments, wastes and to cover the ALP blackholes.

      Add to the fact the time lost in companies to pay for the tax. and the job losses and the fact that government modelling thinks that the cost passed to the public will only be about 10-20% (which is not going to happen)

      This have just been one big lie by Gillard

    • dovif says:

      11:12am | 15/09/11

      Disreali

      Key word is “government estimates” currently the government believe that only 10-20% of the Carbon tax will be passed on to the public, when the GST would tell you about 75%+ of the GST was passed onto the public. That is just irresponsible.

      Also the Carbon tax air is to increase EVERY YEAR, so that we reach a target that all MAJOR Polluting countries had not agree to (USA, INDIA, CHINA) So the cost to the public will increase every year, and everyone will end up worst off

      Gillard started by Lying, she has not stopped

    • Disraeli says:

      11:41am | 15/09/11

      The GST modelling and the Carbon Price modelling come from the same people, doing their jobs for the Government of the day and the country. I’ll take Treasury data any day, under any government, over shrill jibes from a Punch poster.

      The GST is a consumption tax to simplify revenue raising, paid by individuals on goods at purchase. The Carbon Price is a market mechanism for big business, the amount of which they pay is up to how efficient they are at reducing emissions, or seeking competitive advantage, before passing on any portion of the cost.

      And it’s still in consumer’s power, aided by the rebates available, to make savings on eg power use and the like.

      Business calls. Later.

    • RyaN says:

      11:57am | 15/09/11

      @Disraeli: what does Disraeli stand for anyway, is that some sort of anti-semetic message like “Die Israeli” or something?

    • Tator says:

      12:00pm | 15/09/11

      Andye,
      consider that around 40% of lowest income families pay NO net income taxes and that the top 30% of income earners pay over 73% of total income tax receipts, why shouldn’t they get some relief.  This is basically everyone earning the Australian average wage or higher.  So basically the bottom 70% are only contributing 27% of total income tax anyway and many are not paying any net income taxes due to welfare churn. (Figures from latest ABS income tax statistics http://www.ato.gov.au/docs/cor00268761_2009PER9.xls )

    • neo says:

      12:41pm | 15/09/11

      I would be happy to pay the carbon tax if I knew the money would go towards improving our environment. Few dollars from everyone, and you can make a big difference.

      Where is this money going though? To pay Krudd’s in flight entertainment? To buy Julia a new hammer and sickle? I think it’s only fair we are told what the money is going to be spent on before we pay it.

      Either way, as long as this government is pretending to better the environment through their tax, at the same time failing to build more nuclear reactors, which provide the cleanest and most efficient energy to date, I will call them bloody hypocrites.

    • jf says:

      12:42pm | 15/09/11

      Disraeli says:10:35am | 15/09/11

      “In 2012-13 there’ll be almost 9 million households. About 8 million households get some assistance.”

      So what’s the fncking point?

    • andye says:

      12:47pm | 15/09/11

      @Tator - Thats Income Tax. Did you consider indirect taxes, such as the GST? What is suprising is how flat our tax structure is when you take those into account.

      That is all beside the point, though. What I am saying is that tax cuts for the middle and poor stimulate the economy. Tax cuts for the rich tend to slow it down, because the money gets locked into investments and other personal wealth building. Your average wealthy guy might initially like the personal tax cuts, but on the other hand what if sales fall in his business? This further impacts government revenue as less sales means less GST.

      During the 80s, the whole “Trickle down” theory was used to justify tax cuts to the wealthy to benefit all, but this is shown to not work and actually have the opposite effect. Money needs to keep moving through the economy to keep it healthy. The best way to do this, to help business? Tax cuts to the middle and lower income earners.

    • dovif says:

      01:08pm | 15/09/11

      Disraeli

      The issue are in 2000 we had a competant government, and they are not the same people who does Julia and Wayne’s estimates, You might note that Wayne’s budget estimates had not come within $10 billion of forcast in each of the last 3 years.

      Also we have a PM today who is well known for her lies, I do not have faith in the competency or the integrity of this government, or any of the lies they tries to tell us

    • persephone says:

      01:19pm | 15/09/11

      Interesting how so many of the posters here seem to be in the top 10% of income earners.

      I would have thought, to be earning that kind of money, you wouldn’t have the time to waste on a blog like this.

      Reminds me, also, of when we worked backwards from Dash’s claims that he was going to pay out a couple of thou on the flood levy and worked out he must be earning in excess of $300k a year.

      Perhaps you guys are rich enough to get your secretaries to type your posts for you??

      DocBud

      on that logic, we’re all paying royalties, payroll tax, Workcover, property taxes, professional idemnity insurance, and various other company imposts at tte moment, so one more won’t make a huge difference.

      And this one comes with compensation - the others don’t.

      Maree

      those of the kind of effects Treasury works out all the time. They did it for the GST, and various other Howard government levies, taxes and other imposts.

      And I think wind farms look terrific.

      pete

      and the LIbs would rather you didn’t get paid at all.

      Gillard is a Liar

      stop lying yourself.

      Where the money goes to is set out very explicitly.

      None of it goes to government ‘black holes’.

      RyaN

      exactly how ignorant are you? ‘Disraeli’ was a great writer and MP in the UK and was PM under Queen Victoria.

      neo

      A proportion of the money raised goes to environmental initiatives. However, the best environmental action any government can take it putting a price on carbon.

      This is because greenhouse gas emissions are the greatest environmental threat we face, and interacts with all the others.

      The government doesn’t get to ‘keep’ any of the money for its own programs - it all goes in either compensation, assisance to industry or environmental programs (mainly aimed at providing clean energy).

      Nuclear power would take too long and be too expensive. It’s a viable option for some countries, but in ours the same amount of money would buy much quicker and equally green solutions.

      jf

      because it’s not about households.

      Households don’t emit much compared to industry.

      For example, one local industry recently announced that it would reduce its use of non renewable energy by 30% by 2020.

      Working it out, that’s the equivalent of 11,000 households cutting their emissions to zero.

      Secondly, most household emissions come from their use of fossil fuel powered electricity.

      Change the source of their electricity and you automatically cut household emissions without the householder doing a thing.

    • Dodge says:

      01:39pm | 15/09/11

      A pile on I just can’t ignore!

      ‘Wealth Distribution’ - you mean taxes in general bro? The whole point is to distribute wealth to areas that wouldn’t otherwise get it… There’s a GREAT deal of industries and services the private sector will not touch with a 10 foot pole - why you might ask? Well there’s no profit there champion, there’s no path to riches for a certain percentage of a corporation so they don’t bother.

      Perhaps you’re fine with rural folks getting sweet f all and ‘making do for themselves’ in some lame attampt at Eugenics, but fortunately we live in a civilization that understands that the free market and profit DO NOT always drive and should not drive society.

      All your hateful ranting in the 2nd paragraph is an indication of how far the Murdoch inspired rot has penetrated Australian society. We didn’t used to be like that. If you want a fend for yourself society go and buy a 1 way ticket to the States. Failure.

    • Disraeli says:

      01:49pm | 15/09/11

      Hello, again Persephone, hope all’s well with you and yours out there in country Vic.

      Ryan: 
      No matter how personally offensive you try to be, you’ll never get a rise in kind out of me, as you well know. Wasted effort. As for Disraeli, if you really did not know who he was, you could have tried looking him up. General hint, that: try looking things up before you start digging yourself another hole.

      Various: How effective can it be/What’s the point:
      Garnaut made these points about the usefulness of household cost rebates vs carbon price effectiveness

      “It is sometimes suggested that providing households with assistance would cancel out the benefits of introducing a carbon price. It is said that, if we impose a carbon price that costs a household $100 and then provide that household with a tax cut worth $100, nothing has changed.

      These suggestions are wrong. The carbon price, even with the tax cut, alters the relative prices of more and less emissions-intensive goods and services. High-emissions goods become more expensive relative to low-emissions goods. Demand for the former falls, while demand for the latter rises. And putting a price on emissions encourages producers to use less emissions-intensive processes to produce goods and services.”
      http://www.garnautreview.org.au/update-2011/garnaut-review-2011/chapter6.html

      I agree with Garnaut’s assessment, in which he is not alone.

      In reaching my considered view, I’ll put more weight on Garnaut’s conclusions as an economist any day, than personal insults slopped about on The Punch.

    • MadKat of Melbourne says:

      02:06pm | 15/09/11

      persephone - Maree’s post was very valid - the multiplier effect is very valid - sure as you say Treasury works these out all the time but have they or are we flying by the seat of pants with estimates on $20 carbon pricing with little else researched on the effects on the economy -

      DocBud - “Companies do not pay any tax, this is even recognised by the left leaning New Economics Foundation” - you because a left leaning organisation isn’t going to put in any spin when writing about big bad corporations are they -

    • Aaron says:

      02:08pm | 15/09/11

      I completely agree with this. I think that for me to support such a scheme, the revenue generated would have to be put directly into investing in green power and compensation for initial costs to switch over.

      The other thing is that the carbon tax doesn’t just affect electricity. Take aluminium as an example. CO2 is released as a biproduct of the chemical reaction used in refining the aluminium. There’s no getting around that. Should they be slugged with the cost?

      I think Australia needs to funnel costs from a carbon tax into better forms of energy, such as renewables, or research into something like nuclear fusion

    • DocBud says:

      02:25pm | 15/09/11

      The point being, MadKat, that the left is always calling on companies to pay more tax yet one of its own think tanks concedes that imposing taxes on companies results in the cost of the tax being shared around. It has nothing to do with big bad corporations but is a recognition that tax is a cost that is taken into account when setting wages, prices and dividends. When the cost goes up, wages, prices or dividends are adjusted.

    • MadKat of Melbourne says:

      02:43pm | 15/09/11

      Disraeli - you said “These suggestions are wrong. The carbon price, even with the tax cut, alters the relative prices of more and less emissions-intensive goods and services. High-emissions goods become more expensive relative to low-emissions goods. Demand for the former falls, while demand for the latter rises. And putting a price on emissions encourages producers to use less emissions-intensive processes to produce goods and services.”

      That does only work if there is a complementary low-emission good or service - otherwise the costs just increase. There will be short-term increases in some goods and services until the market catches up with manufacturing them with low-emissions.

    • Disraeli says:

      03:06pm | 15/09/11

      Oh come on.  Not my words, MadKat. Garnaut’s view - in which he is not alone. I’ll take the view of highly experienced professionals in the field, against a Punch post, any day.

      And on household costs and benefits: Treasury modelling was at $23/tonne CO2 equivalent. Not $20, MadKat. That was Liberal misinformation. Already slapped down multiple times, on the public record.

      “According to the notes, Labor’s economic modelling of the impact of the tax on ‘‘families, pensioners and businesses’’ used an estimated price of $20 rather than the actual price of $23 ‘‘so from the very beginning, Julia Gillard’s claims about how much the carbon tax will cost have been flawed and deliberately under-estimated’‘.

      But the Treasury modelling to estimate price impacts on families and businesses did use the $23 starting price.”
      http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/coalition-distorts-facts-in-campaign-on-pollution-charge-20110912-1k639.html#ixzz1Xzfn5rnO

      Now, more generally:
      On the charge of “lies”, to me personally. I reject that totally, for the worthless empty slur that it is. I use information freely available to all, from informed sources on the public record.

      As for my opinions, they are my own work, posted after relevant research and thought. I’m happy to let them stand as they are, on the public record.

      However base and baseless, no barrage of insult will stop me from rationally and civilly putting my views or the sound factual sources on which they’re based , that others are free to check and think over for themselves.

    • RyaN says:

      03:41pm | 15/09/11

      @Disraeli: you and persephone could just use your real names rather than cowering like cowardly curs behind random pseudonyms.

    • RyaN says:

      04:12pm | 15/09/11

      @Disraeli: on the “households being better off” claim, can I direct your attention to this then:
      2 families side by side, both identical total before tax combined incomes lets say (100 grand), after tax the single income family is already substantially worse of (taking into account all government subsidies etc.)
      Now lets look at how that carbon tax affects us according to you propaganda calculator that clearly doesn’t take into account the knock on effects of the carbon price.
      One family with 2 incomes of 50k are $37 better off
      Same size family with 1 income of 100k are $197 worse off.

      So based on your own calculator that is painting the rosiest picture of all, the single income family that is already slugged thousands of dollars a year more tax than their dual income family counterpart is to be slugged again under this carbon tax. Just keep kicking them when they are down huh!

    • MadKat of Melbourne says:

      04:23pm | 15/09/11

      Actually Disraeli - what Garnaut has described is a simple supply-demand model that economists learn in first semester uni. All economists will actually tell you that this model is alot more complicated in the reality that is the economy.

      The government did do figures for long-term macroeconomic $20 pricing for their ETS cap - the long term outlook is better than looking at the $23 short-term as -

      1 The $23 price only lasts for the first year - the price goes up 2.5% each year until 2015
      2 It will take longer than a year for the effects on the economy to stabilise (we are talking about a economy-wide reform - things won’t work as the models project overnight).

      And here’s some readings on Garnaut’s not so hot record economically:
      http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/garnaut_is_no_expert_and_not_infallible

      And Disraeli - not knowing the background of Punch posters its wrong and short-sighted of you to assume their professions or experience in what they’re talking about -

    • Disraeli says:

      06:38pm | 15/09/11

      Basically, I decline to be drawn into exchanges of derogatory, baseless personal assumptions.

      There is no way of knowing other posters supposed knowledge or expertise, beyond the content of their posts.

      And it is only ever the content of posts, not the personal, that I address - as MadKat could have readily observed.

      As for Ryan’s latest attempt at personal attack, yet another empty blagging. 

      The use of nicknames has been debated on The Punch before. It has nothing whatever to do with “cowering”. Ryan, who certainly didn’t start posting here just yesterday, should know this very well. It’s quite simply a non-issue - and that at least he does know full well, as so many of his own side do the *exactly* the same, as does he, himself.  Ludicrously, Ryan seeks to imply that “RyaN” as a handle is somehow courageously open use of his “real” name. Utter nonsense -  among the thousands upon thousands of Ryans in Australia, he’s as just as anonymous as everyone else.

      Content, checkable, sensible, interesting,  civil content, is the only real issue here. And that is as easy for those with handles as for those with full names - who could in fact be anyone. It just requires a tick of patience and a touch of careful looking up.

      “My” calculator: Nonsense. The Household Cost etc calculator isn’t mine, of course. It’s one part of the main information website provided to help those interested get an idea of what to expect, at
      https://www.cleanenergyfuture.gov.au

      If Ryan doesn’t like the result for households on $100,000 incomes, that’s up to him. There are a great many more households managing carefully on less than that. And help they will *all* get.

      Furthermore, any household can always look at ways to save more, on their own account. On power, for example: why not get a home energy audit? Available free or at modest, reclaimable cost,  in most States.  Easily found on line. NSW, Vic, QLd, SA, ACT at least, at just a very quick check.

      Enough. Stuff to do here.  See ya.

    • tommo says:

      06:50pm | 15/09/11

      @aaron
      No carbon atoms are directly involved in the production of aluminium, either in the Bayer process or electrolysis (it was a byproduct of the Deville process, but this has long since been replaced by the Bayer process). The carbon pollution resulting from aluminium production is predominantly a result of the massive amounts of electricity consumed in the electrolysis of alumina.

    • Steve Putnam says:

      07:16pm | 15/09/11

      @Ryan Surely you can’t be that ignorant that you’ve never heard of Benjamin Disraeli?

    • Aaron says:

      07:35pm | 15/09/11

      So my Chem books lied too? THOSE BASTARDS!!!! I only mentioned that because I they (the books) listed carbon as one of the electrodes used.

    • Tator says:

      09:54pm | 15/09/11

      Andye,
      poor argument there about indirect taxes as the wealthier also pay more there as they spend more.  Another point to ponder about Reagans trickle down, even if the USA taxes everyone who earns more than $250k at 100% rate, ie take all their income, it still wouldn’t put a dent in their deficit.
      BTW, what do you define as RICH, as according to the ATO stats, the top 1% is based on those earning more than $248k.  Most of Howard’s tax cuts were aimed at those earning between $50k and $150k and if they did not implement them, you would have people on the average income paying the top marginal rate by now due to bracket creep and how fair would that be, penalising those who make an effort to improve themselves and earn a bit more by either education or overtime and getting slugged heavily by the taxman.  There is an art in taxation, get the marginal rates at a fair for everyone level and people will work their butts off to earn more and at the same time, pay more tax and on the other hand, tax them too much and they will spend money to find ingenious ways to avoid paying tax.  This shaft the rich attitude doesn’t work as there isn’t that many of them anyway and the majority of the top 30% of income earners earn between $60k and $90k, and that is not rich at all as most people on that sort of income would still be living paycheck to paycheck and include people such as veteran police officers,  nurses and firies, all of who are in that bracket due to overtime and shift penalties, and you can’t say that they are rich.  A comfortable income maybe, but definitely not rich

    • MadKat of Melbourne says:

      09:14am | 16/09/11

      Disraeli - you said - “And it is only ever the content of posts, not the personal, that I address - as MadKat could have readily observed.”

      But in a post before you said “I’ll take the view of highly experienced professionals in the field, against a Punch post, any day.”

      I’m never said you attack people personally, I’m saying you dismiss the content in Punch posts without knowing the professional experience and education of the people posting especially in the subject matter being discussed.

    • RyaN says:

      09:44am | 16/09/11

      @Steve Putnam: nope sorry don’t know who Benjamin Disraeli is / was, unfortunately unlike these persephone (who for all intense purposes appears to be Disraeli also since their general spew forth of propaganda is the same) I am not a politician and hence did not study politics which clearly feeds into my ignorance on the point, I actually asked a question rather but unsurprisingly the leftist enemies of the people launched into the usual boring attacks.
      Sucks to have studied for a real degree huh, especially now days where it is so much more profitable to have a union credit card.

    • RyaN says:

      09:52am | 16/09/11

      @Disraeli: use your first name then instead of a pseudonym.

      In any case, answer my question Disraeli, why does your Gillard government want to slug single income families hard with this carbon tax?
      You and I both know that the 100k was a thumb suck, how about you pick a number to compare with.

      The fact that you avoided answering the question is the damning indictment of the joke that is your so-called “compensation”.

      As for it being your calculator, well we all know you are on here to purvey your Glorious leaders propaganda (as anyone can see from your postings towing the party line) hence we can all safely assume you are a member of the Labor party at the least and more than likely a paid member of said party.

    • RyaN says:

      10:02am | 16/09/11

      “Basically, I decline to be drawn into exchanges of derogatory, baseless personal assumptions. ” oh hai persephone!

    • Disraeli says:

      01:59pm | 16/09/11

      I’ve rarely laughed so much, at a bunch of attempted attacks so ludicrously misdirected as these. 

      Ryan’s tried this type of highly charged aggro on with me before. With just as little point or effect. Tough.

      There’s really no point in just making things up, Ryan. It doesn’t help you one bit, no matter how often you try it on. Tough luck.

      Lets just keep it simple, then.

      “RyaN”, *you* are completely indistinguishable from all the thousands and thousands of other Aussie “Ryans”. So *you* are posting as anonymously as pretty well every one else here, Left or Right.  No amount of posing, ranting or wriggling can get you out of it. You’re using a “handle”, same as most of us. If you don’t see it, ask some responsible adult to explain it to you.

      Insult then interrogate, eh. Tried that before too, eh. Still cuts no ice with me. I’m not here to stand meekly by until your hysterics are done, to then report meekly for your interrogations.

      If you have a *genuine* question about income levels v rebates/compensation/tax cuts/pension rises, well, as it isn’t “my” calculator, try asking the people who do know, at the Clean Energy site. Contact: http://www.cleanenergyfuture.gov.au/contact-us/.
      Or extract a digit and ask Combet, the Minister. If you really want an answer, probably wise to try and stay polite.

      There’s no trick to it. When you don’t know, or aren’t sure, don’t just make things up. Look it up, or ask someone whose job it is to know. As a private citizens, that’s what I and anyone else who’s interested can do: look, ask.

      Persephone! What a laugh. Poor Persephone. Earlier in the week, some other coot was claiming everyone “knows” she is Ms Gillard! You couldn’t write comedy as good as this. Dear oh me.

      Look, Ive got stuff to do. You just keep raving away Ryan, unitl you run out of nonsense. Maybe someone on your side will be kind and show you that you’re deep in a hole of your own making - &  there’s really no point in digging yourself ever deeper.

      Ooroo!

    • RyaN says:

      02:28pm | 16/09/11

      @Disreali: “There’s really no point in just making things up, Ryan” but you do it so well, all the time in fact.

      Still not answering the question as to why it is that single income families are to be slugged by this carbon tax. Such a shame!

    • persephone says:

      03:22pm | 16/09/11

      Did they, Dis?

      How flattering!!

      Of course, the PM of Australia WOULD spend a couple of hours a day blogging - running the country’s such an easy job, it can’t take up much time.

    • Disraeli says:

      06:22pm | 16/09/11

      If Ryan can’t recognise a factual reply when he sees one, his problem. If he can’t be bothered checking his own claims, or following a thread, or another posters actual reply, his problem.

      Here he’s trotted out all his weary old tricks again: making things up, misleading, misrepresenting other’s words.

      Didn’t work last time, Ryan. Isn’t ever going to work.

      You won’t get my goat. You won’t ever stop me posting my own personal views as a free private citizen of a free democratic country. You won’t prevent me from rationally and civilly putting forward sound factual source material to back it. You won’t stop me posting under my chosen handle. 

      Whether Ryan likes it or not is hardly the point - this isn’t personal unarmed combat.

      I’m content to let all that I have posted in this and other threads stand as written.

    • Disraeli says:

      07:51pm | 16/09/11

      Sorry you missed that one, Persephone…it was bit of a hoot. Forget who it was.

      Funnily enough, only a few weeks back Ryan was claiming I’m a Government secret agent! Dear oh dear oh dear..

      I do try to treat all this stuff civilly, but by crikey, it’s hard to take it seriously!

      Regards,
      Disraeli

      PS: Night all. Busy weekend ahead, a bunch of stuff on at home and out. Be back next week sometime. Avagoodweekend.

    • Erick says:

      05:59am | 15/09/11

      Maybe a carbon tax is a good idea, but it’s unacceptable that the Gillard government has attempted to impose one by defying democracy. The current proposal will need to be repealed by the Abbott government before we can consider something new.

      I don’t see any mention of nuclear energy in this article. It’s difficult to take this discussion seriously if the only proven and practical means of providing carbon-free baseload energy is ignored.

    • acotrel says:

      06:46am | 15/09/11

      There are no tsunamis in Australia, and our engineers are smart enough to run nuclear reactors without having a disaster.  And if you say that quickly, it sounds like the truth !

    • persephone says:

      07:04am | 15/09/11

      What, Erick, the one which countries like Germany are moving away from at the same time they introduce measures to tackle climate change?

      Nuclear was dead in the water before Fukoshima - there wasn’t a company in Australia (or out of it) wanting to invest in it.

      Now the insurance premiums alone would kill it.

    • The righteous one says:

      07:27am | 15/09/11

      yeah thats never been done before has it Erick,  what is it atm 10% the only difference between little johnnie and Julia is nil,
      words along the lines of ‘[ my government will never introduce a GST/ Carbon Tax. ” The only difference is about 10 years.  A small factual piece of history so conveniently glossed over by the loony right wing barnacles.

    • Joan says:

      07:49am | 15/09/11

      China building more nuclear and coal fired power stations- to roar through the 21st century.  Germany has not ripped down one of its 12 nuclear stations yet. Talk is cheap especially in your final days of power. See Peresphone - even you feel comforted by talk and no real action. Voters are mugs that rely on promises , we just need look in our own backyard-  Gillards `No Carbon Tax ` promise didn’t even last three months.

    • Disraeli says:

      07:54am | 15/09/11

      Fair comment Persephone.

      Can’t help wondering what Eric’s estimate might be for the lead time on bringing in large scale nuclear power and disposal facilities in Aus.

      As for democracy, that’s what we’ve got. The result of our last election:  a functioning, democratic, minority government negotiating its program, managing the country and the economy, successfuly in difficult times.

    • persephone says:

      08:26am | 15/09/11

      Joan

      and China is also building renewables, presumably for the same purpose.

      B

      Not an expert on power sources, but have a lot of faith in our ability to come up with new solutions!

      This is an interesting read—-

      http://www.sustainabilitycentre.com.au/BaseloadFallacy.pdf

      which argues that alternative energies can provide baseload power.

      or you could try—-

      http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2010/12/02/3081889.htm

      which argues that the idea that we need a continuous source of power from one source is not necessary with alternative technologies.

      Basically, the idea of ‘baseload’ stems from old ways of power production, where the plant couldn’t easily be shut down and thus power was produced continuously, regardless of need.

      That restriction doesn’t apply when you’re talking about multiple sources of electricity production, where power can be supplied on a demand basis.

    • juju says:

      08:29am | 15/09/11

      “As for democracy, that’s what we’ve got. The result of our last election:  a functioning, democratic, minority government negotiating its program, managing the country and the economy, successfully in difficult times.”

      hahahahahaha….. the best laugh I’ll have all day. Thanks for that!

    • acotrel says:

      08:34am | 15/09/11

      @Erick
      Even under normal circumstances baseload needs are managed by the Snowy Hydro Scheme.  Like a lot of things the ‘baseload argument’ is simplistic bullshit designed to manipulate the ignorant !

    • acotrel says:

      08:39am | 15/09/11

      @Erick
      The Snowy Hydro Scheme was initiated by Ben Chifley, NOT Bob Menzies !  If you are waiting for the LNP to introduce nuclear power generation, you are in for a long wait !  They are not known for investing in infrastructure !  There are too interested in curbing public spending, and maintaining the status quo, while their friends get steadily richer without innovating!

    • dovif says:

      08:41am | 15/09/11

      persephone

      You are clueless

      You do know that 75% of French and Germany power output are from Nuclear, and that is their way of “tackling” climate change, India recently announced they are planning about 20% of their increase in power supply (about 1,000mkw, ie many times more then australia’s power supply) required by 2020 will be in Nuclear and the rest in Coal fire plant (yes they are doing that much for climate change)

      As for Australian companies, there are actually about 10 new Australian companies persuing new mines in Nuclear.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      09:02am | 15/09/11

      Thorium reactors would be fine. Lets do that. 

      Then we can shut down the Playford station in SA and the LaTrobe Valley stations in Victoria, INSTANTLY meeting our carbon reduction targets with no new tax.

    • iansand says:

      09:20am | 15/09/11

      Apart from the lead time involved in developing a commercial thorium reactor and then the time it takes to build one.

      Thorium is a great plan for ... I dunno ... would 20 years cover it?

    • MarkS says:

      09:42am | 15/09/11

      @acotrel
      There will never be another Snowy scheme in Australia because firstly there are very few places in Australia with rivers that have enough flow & secondly because you would oppose any more dams because it would harm the orange spotted pygmy frog or the like.

      It is a simple fact that base power with present technology is impossible without Coal, Oil, Gas, Nukes or a damn big river. By suggesting otherwise you show your ignorance.

    • b says:

      09:45am | 15/09/11

      @persephone

      And that removes the security of a stable power supply.  Increasing the frequency of blackouts, and brown outs.  It doesnt matter which way you put it the electricity grid was designed to have a baseload power supply.

      Also you may have faith in our ability to innovate.  I do too.  But I dont have the faith that this will be commercially available in a timely manner to coincide with a carbon tax.

      So sorry, no there is still no viable alternative to Coal, gas or Nuclear baseload power supply.  A shoddy website full of self-interest and an article from one person do not constitute an argument or change the facts.

    • Disraeli says:

      09:50am | 15/09/11

      Thorium power, in commercial production on a scale large enough to significatly reduce AGW emissions, is at least 3 decades away. It may become a viable alternative in the future.

      It isn’t now viable, any more than conventional nuclear is, for a problem where we have less than thirty years to make significant impact on emission levels.

    • Fletch says:

      10:10am | 15/09/11

      @persephone

      Germany are shutting down their reactors and buying baseload electricity from France which is generated….wait for it…..by nuclear reactors!

    • Keith Hammersmith says:

      10:15am | 15/09/11

      Hey persephone,  germany is always right right?  I mean if germany does it it must be right,  they never make mistakes

    • Mattb says:

      10:38am | 15/09/11

      @Top
      ‘The we can shut down the Playford station in SA and the LaTrobe Valley stations in Victoria, INSTANTLY meeting our carbon reduction targets with no new tax.’

      Hah, I can already hear Tony Abbott crying about the loss of jobs at these two plants, it would go a little bit like this-  ‘oh, the humanity!!, these forgotten families will be destroyed and the economy will collapse’...


      I actually believe nuclear as an option should be explored. But can you imagine if the gillard’s government started talking about it. Tony abbott would, overnight, become the world’s loudest anti-nuclear campaigner.

      ‘great big new toxic nuclear power plant coming to your neighborhood’ would be the weathervane’s angle to his ‘forgotten families’....

    • persephone says:

      10:41am | 15/09/11

      dovif

      Germany has declared it will close down all of its nuclear power stations. That’s a fact.

      But I’m not against nuclear; for some countries it’s the best alternative available, and I accept that the risks (though very real) can be overstated.

      It’s simply not economic (or necessary) in the Australian context.

      If it were either, there’d be investors out there agitating for it. There aren’t.

      In our market driven economy, if no one wants to invest in something, that means there’s a good reason (or several good reasons) for not doing so.

      Tony

      well, if we’re going for untested technologies which noone’s been able to get to work in practice, yes.

      And - as Ian points out - we need a quicker solution than that.

      Even the LIbs agree we need to cut our emissions by 5% by 2020, so we need to get cracking.

      MarkS

      bzzt. Wrong. Read the links I’ve provided.

      I repeat: baseload power is a concept which goes with old ways of electrcitity production. It doesn’t have to be a given.

      As the articles I’ve linked to outline, there are ways of providing power which better matches the demand for it, and thus are more efficient.

      Time we moved away from 20th century ways of operating.

      b

      well, for starters, the elecricity grid is a way of distributing power. There’s nothing intrinsic about it which says that it has to distribute a certain percentage of power on a constant basis. That kind of thinking is a hangover from the days when power stations couldn’t be shut down.

      There are far more than two articles on the subject - but if you want to remain ignorant, be my guest.

      Keith

      and where did I say that? Joan was the one citing Germany as an example of best practice.

      Why attack me and not her?

      Bias?

    • PTom says:

      11:29am | 15/09/11

      b,
      When they talk about gird power the are talking about suburbs to power stations not houses, when people talk about renewable as multi source they are talking from house to powerstations which actual increase the security of supply.

      Example:  Why do you think so many house lost power during the QLD floods because they shutdown the grids, which meant lots of people not impacted by water lost power for days because over part of the suburb where under water. How many of them would not have lost power if the had solar or wind at home? 

      BTW Solar is already commerical available and parity to gird power prices which mean it will become cheaper then coal.

    • Willie Mac says:

      11:46am | 15/09/11

      @dovif, be that as it may, how many private companies have recently built or are planning to build nuclear plants, anywhere in the world? Not mines, actual power plants. The answer is a pitifully small number. Practically all new investment in nuclear plants is being driven by centralised government bureaucracies like China. Is that the sort of business future you want in this country?

    • iansand says:

      12:07pm | 15/09/11

      AAAdam - Increasing efficiency of existing plant is the low hanging fruit of emission reduction.  It is quick and relatively cheap.  Anyone who does not look at efficiencies as a first step is not fit to run a corporation.

      Then, when existing plant is replaced, the existence of a price on carbon will mean that even more efficient plant will be more likely to provide better value over the life of that plant.  Another relatively cheap way to reduce emissions.  If you have to replace plant anyway it makes financial sense to put energy efficiency higher up the wish list.  Another saving.

      Then we can start looking at new technologies.  In the time we have bought by increasing efficiency those new technologies will be well on the way to maturing.

    • Adam Diver says:

      12:16pm | 15/09/11

      @ Persophone, do you even read the sources?

      “Although a single wind turbine is indeed intermittent, this is not generally true of a system of several wind farms” sounds like baseload to me. We basing our economy on not generally true? Plus they mentioned to get a baseload of 850MW would need a wind farm with a max output of over 2500MW. That sounds efficient.

      Couldn’t read any more after the ideological BS. Its not like wind and solar haven’t had billions pumped into them over the last 2 decades and yet we still have no commercially applicable wind or solar plants.

      All this and AGW is a largley unproven theory, and Australias actions are neglible anyway.

    • Keith Hammersmith says:

      12:49pm | 15/09/11

      “persephone says:

      07:04am | 15/09/11

      What, Erick, the one which countries like Germany are moving away from at the same time they introduce measures to tackle climate change?”

      thats you persephone using Germany as an example.

    • persephone says:

      02:52pm | 15/09/11

      Keith

      as I said, take answers in context.

      That Germany is getting out of nuclear power is a fact.

      This demonstrates that - even for countries which are serious about tackling their emissions and already have established nuclear power - nuclear isn’t the answer.

      Saying that doesn’t mean I think Germany is a shining light to be held up on all occasions.

    • Bruce says:

      04:18pm | 15/09/11

      B: Helium 3 will most probably be the base load power generation source possibly after around 2050. Making other forms of power generation somewhat obsolete, or inefficient, including nuclear. At the moment it is costly to produce, but so were plasma tv’s 10 years ago. My understanding is that the USA and a hand full of other nations are already investigating and developing the use of this technolgy.

    • Aaron says:

      04:33pm | 15/09/11

      Thing is that Australia is actually a prime candidate for nuclear, not saying we should make it a major source, but we have so much uranium in Australia, and a small population, meaning we could fuel these plants and keep them going for an extremely long time.

      I think nuclear fusion is our best option for long term main-stream solutions. Can be powered by Deuterium (found in sea water), and would be a virtually limitless supply of energy. Keep in mind, the sun is powered by fusion.

      Unfortunately, Solar requires materials that I simply don’t think there’s enough of to make a difference.

    • Matt says:

      04:59pm | 15/09/11

      “persephone says:

      02:52pm | 15/09/11

      That Germany is getting out of nuclear power is a fact.”

      It strikes me as being closer to a pledge, rather than fact. How many have been taken offline so far, persephone? I mean, it was also a fact that asylum seekers would be sent to Malaysia.

      Also, looks like its going to work wonders for their economy:
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/07/bayer-quit-germany-nuclear-shutdown

      Maybe Germany isn’t such a great example after all?

    • Tator says:

      09:30pm | 15/09/11

      PTom,
      as a solar panel system owner, I can tell you that if the power goes out, you have to turn your system off at the inverter, so there is no benefit there unless you have a battery backup system capable of running your house.  The reason that you have to switch the panels off is so that the electrical grid workers can work safely and also allow them to work out where any outages are.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      06:04am | 15/09/11

      We do need a carbon tax and carbon pricing. Just not Gillard’s one. We need a carbon tax with no compensation, no ETS, carbon tarriffs, proceeds used for building nuclear power plants, and population stabilization.

    • Erick says:

      06:33am | 15/09/11

      Well said Ben. The deniers are anti-science and anti-economics. They wallow happily in their own ignorance and spread fears and lies like the worst of history’s propagandists.

    • ShamWow says:

      07:56am | 15/09/11

      Your description of “the deniers” would perfectly describe both the extreme sides of this deabte.

    • ZSRenn says:

      09:28am | 15/09/11

      Punch Why do you allow this obvious theft of Ericks handle to continue. Shame!

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      10:02am | 15/09/11

      Not at all. I believe that AGW is a highly probable phenomenon. I just don’t think that the ALP or LNP have the right solutions to the problem. I have elsewhere in this column posted what I think is the correct solution

    • jf says:

      12:45pm | 15/09/11

      So Erick, how does this tax stop climate change again?

    • andye says:

      04:50pm | 15/09/11

      @jf - It cuts carbon emissions through market pressure. Frankly, I trust the market and company self-interest to drive innovation and change far more than any direct government action.

      What kind of topsy-turvy world are we living in anyway where the left is pushing a market solution and the right is pushing a big government “spend my taxes” solution?

    • I hate pies says:

      05:40pm | 15/09/11

      If AGW is real, why don’t we just adapt to conditions, like we always have. Just move farming areas to where it rains; build stronger houses; etc.
      It’s not like the world’s going to blow away tomorrow - we’ve got plenty of time. Heck, we could even wait and see if the predictions are actually correct.
      I wouldn’t take much note of the author of this article’s opinion though - it’s like asking the CEO of a tobacco company if smoking is dangerous to your health.
      For transparency, all authors of any article to do with AGW should have to state at the beginning where they derive their income.

    • jf says:

      07:40pm | 15/09/11

      andye says: 04:50pm | 15/09/11

      “@jf - It cuts carbon emissions through market pressure”

      No. I meant THIS tax.

      With everyone being rebated, there is zero incentive to change behaviour.

    • Gary Cox says:

      06:39am | 15/09/11

      Yeah I sort of get your point and even half agree now that after reading your piece that the tax may spark a ‘green jobs revolution’. But what about in-between time, Australia’s one comparative advantage in manufacturing is cheap electricity. What is going to happen to these people’s jobs inbetween their factory shutting down and the ‘revolution’? Is the tax worth it just to create a green jobs revolution? Because let’s face it, it’s not going to change the climate. Humans produce 3% of atmospheric CO2, Australia produces 1.5% of that and we want to cut emissions by 5%? 5% of 1.5% of 3%? Hardly worth it is it?

    • BobM says:

      06:56am | 15/09/11

      The next generation of Australians will be known as GenW - the Welfare generation, thanks to Labor and the Greens.

    • persephone says:

      07:16am | 15/09/11

      Gary

      industries which are trade exposed - that is, which face the possibility of going out of business if they don’t have the competitive advantage provided by cheap electricity - are compensated under the package.

      Other industries have asked to be included in the package because, at present, other countries are imposing carbon prices on them anyway—

      http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/14/uk-australia-carbon-idUSLNE78D01L20110914

      —or because they’re already offsetting omissions and would like to be able to account for these.

      As more coutnries internationally put in place carbon pricing systems ot their own, there will be further barriers to trade between these countries and ones without carbon pricing introduced.

      On the other side of the coin, the Ballieu government’s recent decision to water down its commitment to emissions reduction is already threatening jobs in rural Victoria.

      As for the percentage of CO2, firstly go to this site for a good backgrounding on the issue—-

      http://www.skepticalscience.com/human-co2-smaller-than-natural-emissions.htm

      We have a ‘natural’ level of CO2 and have had for a long time (about the same length of time humans have been kicking around the planet). We’re now adding more CO2 into this stable system.

      So it’s not the amount, it’s the fact that it’s more than the current system can cope with (your glass is full to the brim; adding even 1% to the water there will rsult in it overflowing).

      The Earth will be hunky dory, it’s coped with higher concentrations of CO2 in the past. We mightn’t do so well.

    • B says:

      08:40am | 15/09/11

      @persephone

      There has never been a “natural” level of CO2.  It has always and will always fluctuate.

      Temperature lags CO2 increases.  “http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/co2-in-ice-cores/”

    • persephone says:

      10:44am | 15/09/11

      B

      until recently, it fluctuated within a certain range.

      It’s now increasing beyond that, and reaching levels which have not been experienced whilst mankind has been in existence.

    • PTom says:

      11:08am | 15/09/11

      Cheap electricity by non-renewable into the future is a myth.

      Power companies buy their coal or gas from Mining companies, which
      sell their products to the highest bidder.
      This mean non-renewable electricity prices will be impacted by internatonal commodity price and will keep going.

      So either we switch to more renewable or we end facing higher electricity prices which will impact both household and manufacturing.

    • neil says:

      01:55pm | 15/09/11

      Cheap electricity has been a huge competitive advantage for Australian manufacturing for decades but Gillard and Brown seem determined to bring it to an end.

      It’s no coincidence the GM, Toyota and Ford, the three biggest auto manufacturers in the world all build engines in Australia. Internal combustion engines are very resources and energy dense, hence perfect for manufacturing here. Ford has already announced that it will be shutting down its engine plant in 2016, Toyota announced this week that they are reviewing their Altona plant and may move engine production to Kentucky where they have cheap coal power. Nissan still has an aluminium casting plant in Dandenong because we have cheap electricity, but for how long?

    • persephone says:

      02:55pm | 15/09/11

      neil

      yes, but economies which rely on one economic advantage remaining so will inevitably decline.

      Something which has worked for decades in the past will not necessarily work as well in the future.

    • andye says:

      04:58pm | 15/09/11

      @Gary Cox - “Australia produces 1.5%”

      ...and we are about 0.3% of the world population. So that means we are producing around 5 times as much carbon, per person, as the average human.

      As an example, china has about 20% of the worlds population and produces 24% of the worlds carbon.

      Your argument is basically “hey we are really quite greedy, but we are small - so why bother?”

    • BobM says:

      06:50am | 15/09/11

      We don’t need a carbon TAX but the thing we do need to get rid of the Gillard government.

      And your line,  ‘As the world inevitably prices carbon pollution’ is a load of crock. The world is moving in the opposite direction as it struggles to head off the oncoming second wave GFC. Pricing carbon is the last thing on their minds.

      Finally, I love your pic of the wind turbines in China - with a background of pollution - they’re doing a fine job there! These turbines are probably just for show anyway - China has built entire cities with no-one living in them, just to boost their economic activity.

      It will be a sad day for 70% of Australians if this tax goes through. But Labor and their bed partners, the Greens, don’t give a stuff about that.

    • Charles says:

      07:00am | 15/09/11

      This article glosses over so many thins it is hard to know where to start, but perhaps the investment line is a good example.

      Taking windfarm development as the classic rent-seekers paradise, we see that for every dollar spent in installation in Australia, about 90c will be deployed to buy expensive componentry from overseas, typically Europe and China.

      However, all the debt (i.e. the whole dollar), plus ongoing operating profits for the next 20 years or so for the owners of these windfarms, most of whom are not Australians, will come from Australia.

      In addition, it is well known that windfarms do not save any CO2 from being emitted as their supply of power must be constantly shadowed by fossil-fuelled generators to keep them even, and in some cases it causes them to be more inefficient and generate more CO2 than otherwise.

      So in summary, investment in so called ‘clean energy’ represents a significant shipping of wealth away from Australia, in return from what can only be described as the triple bottom failure where windfarms represent only a social, economic and environmental disaster.

      Welcome to the world of Julia Gillard and the Greens.

    • Al says:

      08:01am | 15/09/11

      @Charles - The Dr Shi example shows where the future lies economically, ($3 billion sent overseas) as does the line about typewriters and ipads.

      Also check out this article in The Guardian looking at profit results for companies that make climate change a large part of their agenda at http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/damian-carrington-blog/2011/sep/14/carbon-green-economy-emissions .

      Finally, another example -  during the 70/80s fuel crisis, the cost of petrol shot up in Japan just as it did everywhere else in the world. However, when the crisis ended the rest of the world dropped their petrol prices but in Japan the government kept them high with one eye on the future of oil.

      As a result Japanese car manufacturers focused on fuel efficiencies. Today, the car manufacturers in the US who kept building bigger and bigger gas chuggers have nearly gone belly-up and the Japanese lead the world in auto manufacture.

    • Keith Hammersmith says:

      10:21am | 15/09/11

      Car manufacturers in the states that have gone belly up are due to the company structure and having to pay pensions for thousands of workers for decades,  something they do not do in Japan.  Not due to fuel efficiency.  In fact California has the highest emissions control standards on cars anywhere,  yet this tax that has the environment in mind, does nothing to curb car emissions.  So smog will keep growing.
      Which is part of the discontent,  people rightly feel that we are being stung by a tax that is ineffective and will produce no result.
      I would happily pay 2k more for my car if it kicked out way less Carbon Mon-oxide,  yet the Labor government has ignored this.  - makes you question their motivation doesn’t it?

    • fml says:

      10:41am | 15/09/11

      Al,

      That is an excellent comment. Its about keeping an eye towards the future and i think the japanese oil price analogy is superb. Irrespective of whether carbon pricing is initiated or not, the price of coal is going to increase, the price of electricity has increased massively in the last few years with out carbon pricing. With more and more coal being depleted there needs to be action now (carbon pricing or another scheme) so that we can move seamlessly to another means of energy production without the mad rush when it all runs out.

    • Al says:

      11:49am | 15/09/11

      @fml - The management structure is part of the problem but the real kicker is the number of cars sold. Consumers went for more fuel efficient cars and so the sales for US car makers fell off a cliff. Meanwhile the sales for Japanese carmakers went up like…..CO2 emissions anyone grin.

    • jf says:

      12:48pm | 15/09/11

      Al says:08:01am | 15/09/11

      So, in summary, this is already happending without a carbon tax.

    • John Smythe says:

      01:16pm | 15/09/11

      I think you will find that Japan is not a good example. The particular incident you refer to is based on it being an island nation and completely dependent upon imports.

      The crisis was based on, iirc, the imports stopping with no indication of when they would restart. They had limited domestic supply. To enforce a way of controlling the usage of the domestic supply, prices were hiked. It was quite literally a state of national emergency.

      It was a result of this incident that led to the introduction of more nuclear based power plants in an effort to reduce the dependency on imported fuel supplies.

      This is completely irrelevant to what the current government is trying to do to Australia. Different circumstances, different reasons, and different motivations.

    • Al says:

      02:15pm | 15/09/11

      @JF - At an individual company level, in some cases, yes. But it is not enough to make a substantial difference without government regulation.

      @John Smythe - Regardless of the reason for the hike in the price of fuel in Japan, it is the result on the industry which is important.

      An artificial price was created - much like a price on carbon - and the auto industry responded through innovation.

      As a direct result of this artificially created market, Japanese car manufacturers are now the world leaders, while in the US, the home of auto manufacturing, major car companies have been bailed out and taken over by the Federal Government.

      Australia is destined to end up like Detroit if it doesn’t take on a carbon price.

    • John Smythe says:

      02:42pm | 15/09/11

      Al, that’s where you are wrong. It was driven by a fear of the dependency on oil as an imported product not a result of high prices in relation to a specific event.

      The two are separate in that it was the egg, not the chicken.

    • John Smythe says:

      03:23pm | 15/09/11

      Let me rephrase that…..that is where I disagree with you.

    • Al says:

      03:45pm | 15/09/11

      i am happy to accept your case that the price hike was “driven by a fear of the dependency on oil as an imported product not a result of high prices in relation to a specific event”.
      It’s the result of this price hike that interests me. It generated innovation and gave the Japanese car industry a world leading edge that brought about the downfall of Detroit where car manufacturing followed the same patterns.
      It’s great to see your very civil approach. I appreciate it.

    • John Smythe says:

      04:12pm | 15/09/11

      I see your point now. I guess I was still thinking in the frame that the article presented, in stating it takes the carbon price to induce the change (which I disagree with). The Japanese are good at coming together as a country like that.

      Another interesting tidbit, is that the government wrote into legislation that it was “illegal” (ie. under threat of fines) if companies/individuals exceeded allowable energy consumption rates.

      It is this same legislation that the TEPCO and Government incestuous relationship put all of Japan under such strict energy use this summer period. A fine of 1 million yen should any company exceed allowable energy consumption, based on the precedence set in the oil crisis period.

      Off topic I know, but it is this latter action that is in fact, should NOT be represented as such. The former is a national emergency for the Japanese people as it impacted all levels of society based on completely external factors.

      The latter is a national emergency for the Japanese people as it impacted all levels of society based on the sheer incompetence, corruption and purposeful falsifying of safety records by TEPCO, that only in their intertwining relationships with government officials, could not be taken to the cleaners. A house of cards effect, try to fry one TEPCO official and he in turn dobs in 3 govt officials on the take, who in turn…....sad really.

      No worries Al. smile

    • iansand says:

      07:07am | 15/09/11

      And the usual suspects turn up with politics before policy.

      What would have happened if Dr Shi had been able to get funding in Australia?  That is what this article is about.

    • FINK says:

      07:46am | 15/09/11

      iansand,
      If he managed to get funding here (I do believe he went to the Government of the day cap in hand) he would be broke now. You cannot build solar panels in Australia and export them to the world it would be to expensive to manufacture here although the quality of the panels would be much higher. There is evidence now that the solar panels that have come from China are in many ways defective and dangerous.
      He was always going to build them in China or India where the prohibitive costs incurred in Australia are alleviated by the 3rd world conditions.

    • Al says:

      08:25am | 15/09/11

      @FINK - A fair point but half right. If the Chinese manufactured Australian panels to Australian specifications - as happens with many products developed in this country - they would have to fit Australia’s regulations. This would create a situation where the quality of panels would be significantly better and we would have a solar panel business worth $3 billion with its head office here. Imagine the return on that.

    • iansand says:

      08:32am | 15/09/11

      FINK - He could have outsourced manufacture to China, or Indonesia or anywhere from here.  His problem was that he could get no funding that would even have enabled him to do that.  So he has a successful, Chinese based enterprise when, with a bit of imagination from Australian financiers he might have had a successful Australian based enterprise.  Dr Shi is not the only Australian alternative energy entrepreneur who has been knocked back in Australia.  There is one in Germany and another in the US.  I’m sorry, FINK, but your “we couldn’t do it here” attitude is typical and is a large part of the problem.

      In 100 years time we will have enough coal to supply the rest of the world forever.  Not because we will make new discoveries but because there will be no one buying what we have already discovered.  Because of complacency and concentration on the short term we will have nothing to replace the hole left by the collapse of our coal export industries.

    • FINK says:

      10:36am | 15/09/11

      iansand,
      whoa boy settle down!
      “Manufacturing” iansand, it is a dirty word in the Australian economic vocabulary.
      So by outsourcing to Indonesia or China the Australian office would just be a sales and distribution centre, just like so many other Australian iconic manufacturing companies before it.
      My “couldn’t do it here ” attitude is not of my doing more so of our unionist fore fathers who wanted
      - better conditions
      - better wages
      - higher standards of living
      - the list of why we are uncompetitive in the manufacturing industries could go on.
      But we all enjoy the standards of living and today embrace we the wisdom of our fore fathers with an impending Carbon Tax and No manufacturing, in our infinite wisdom we sell our resources to China just so we can by it back again!

    • fml says:

      10:46am | 15/09/11

      An example of Australian owned business based in china would be Kogan.

      The model works, its this type of ingenuity that is required to move forward, not the blindly patriotic protection of retailers like harvey norman who rip us off in the name of nationalism.

      Its the way of the free market, if we cannot build cheaply here, we can do the things we are good at (research and development) and outsource the hard work to cheaper economies, its a sound business model by passing retailers and middle men who each take a cut.

    • FINK says:

      10:48am | 15/09/11

      Al,
      I believe a lot of the Pink Batt insulation that were imported from China supposedly to Australian Standards were in fact sub standard.
      I agree that 3 billion would be better of in Australia, however the jobs would not be here, the investment will not be here it will be overseas.

    • iansand says:

      11:18am | 15/09/11

      No FINK.  More than administration and distribution.  The profits come here too.

    • thatmosis says:

      07:08am | 15/09/11

      This Carbon Tax is nothing more than a money spinner for the Labor government and will do nothing to cut the amount of CO2 released into the atmosphere. Green jobs are an illusion as most of the big green projects overseas are winding up or failing completely as they are unecomnomic and useless. People say that Solar is the way to go but thats just a load of utter crapola. I live on 100% solar and the set up costs and the maintenance costs far outweigh the benefits.
      These people who think they are saving the planet by putting panels on their roofs are only fooling themselves as these panels only provide power for the times the sun shines and thats when most are not home. Once home from work when the peak power is required they revert to coal powered generators unless of course they have the battery backup to run their homes which knowing the cost would not happen.
      Just to run a modest house of two people the cost of batteries would be in the vircinity of $16,000 and these need to be replace every 10 or so making solar very expensive for less power.
        Before making all these grand and misleading statements about alternative energy I think people should really live the life first with the costs and non bebefits it entails before painting rosy pictures about something they know nothing about.

    • acotrel says:

      07:25am | 15/09/11

      @thatmosis
      A friend of mine has solar power, and he is independent of the grid !  In fact another couple I know get paid for the excess electricity they generate - no batteries !  So what are you trying to say ?  The base load argument is garbage.  When electricity is cheap the Snowy Scheme pumps water, when it is dear they make electricity - ROOLY MAGIC ? ?

    • persephone says:

      08:05am | 15/09/11

      thatmosis

      which is one of the reasons that Labor scrapped the solar scheme in its original format.

      Carbon pricing isn’t aimed at reducing household emissions (although that would be a nice spin off) - firstly, because household emissions are so small in the scheme of things and secondly, the bulk of household emissions is due to their use of electricity, so if we can reduce the emissions at the source (that is, changing grid power) we can reduce household emissions too.

      Hence the carbon price is imposed on companies which are either producers of power or big users of it, because if they reduce their emissions then there’s a real impact.

    • RyaN says:

      10:19am | 15/09/11

      @acotrel: that is great for your rich, elitist, leftist friend, fact is that even if we were able to save some money under the current crippling skyrocketing prices of energy, food, insurances and taxes, adding this mother of all crippling taxes to the mix is just going to dash any attempt for the rest of us who don’t live in Vaucluse to be able to afford to buy solar panels and be “off the grid”.

      I wish I was as rich as you leftist elites who want this tax to make yourselves even richer. Al Gores methods of getting rich off nothing.

    • Mike says:

      10:25am | 15/09/11

      acotrel, they get paid for the excess electricity they generate because of subsidies (more government “free money”). These are being cut worldwide because they’re unsustainable and take money out of the pockets of the poor to give to the rich.

    • PTom says:

      11:47am | 15/09/11

      thatmosis,
      Australia is the first country in the world that has solar cost parity to gird.

    • fml says:

      01:10pm | 15/09/11

      RyaN,

      Are you able to write a sentence without any pejoratives?

    • Al says:

      02:24pm | 15/09/11

      @fml - I don’t reckon RyaN can avoid perjoratives. I’m guessing - judging by the language, the foolish blinkered notions he trots out and the stereotypical, right wing, name-calling formula he blurts with anyone who disagrees with him - that he is really Alan Jones.

      I guess that means the next thing we can expect are flat-out lies.

    • RyaN says:

      04:16pm | 15/09/11

      @Al: “I guess that means the next thing we can expect are flat-out lies. ” nope sorry, I am not well versed in Gillard speak. “There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead”

      @fml: I wish I could except that the left commies and their filthy ilk are just so contemptible.

    • Mattb says:

      05:29pm | 15/09/11

      Amazing, one minute everyone that agrees with action on climate change and believes that pricing carbon is the best way to do it is a ‘rich, lefty elitist. Next minute they are ‘left commies’

      Classic how the conservative fan boys claim that a market driven carbon pricing scheme is ‘communist’, yet a direct action, ‘corporate welfare’, socialistic scheme of subsidies isn’t. And one of their biggest defenses, when it comes to action on climate change, is to point to China and claim ‘they’re not doing anything, why should we’. I guess that must mean they see a lot of merit in the policies/principals of communist China….

    • DocBud says:

      06:20pm | 15/09/11

      Mattb,

      An ETS has nothing to do with a free market because a market in carbon dioxide is a regulated market trading nothing. Without government regulation it would not exist because the value of its “commodity” would be zero. The Coalition’s policy is no better than the carbon dioxide tax other than they haven’t lied to us about introducing it. No action is the best policy. The type of government has absolutely no relevance, Indian and US democracies, Chinese communist dictatorship, if they are taking no action then nor should we.

    • RyaN says:

      10:12am | 16/09/11

      @Mattb: no action is the best policy because you won’t destroy your competitive advantage like this government is intending to do. Now once they destroy every last competitive advantage we have, China (their masters) can come just absorb us and the sell out is complete. I mean they already own a fair percentage of our farms and our minerals, thanks Kevin and Julia

    • Joan says:

      07:22am | 15/09/11

      Good pic of Gillard`s grand plan to change Australian landscape into   Windpower industrial zones-  the future Australian landscape as planned by Gillard ,an Australia left to the mercy of unreliable winds as power source- as Gillard closes down coal power stations and says no to nuclear power. for secure base load. Meanwhile China powers and roars through 21st century - 300+ coal fired power stations and 13 + nuclear power stations fuelling power hungry jobs to supply product to the world- its wind power there to impress the gullible wanna be world climate changers.

    • Joan says:

      08:41am | 15/09/11

      China dominates world production market courtesy of coal power and nuclear power - which it uses to make solar panels and wind turbines, and products to satiisfy world demands. One way to sell a product - show it in action then churn it out to buyers. That`s all China is doing making more and selling product on demand by the world. Won’t make a measurable change to world climate but lots of measurable dollars for China

    • BobM says:

      09:46am | 15/09/11

      @Al - China may be producing humungous volumes of solar panels, but they are selling them to other (stupid) countries while powering their own industry on coal-fired or nuclear power stations. They aren’t stupid enough to actually use solar themselves - they know it is unreliable and too expensive.

    • Jay Santos says:

      07:36am | 15/09/11

      Let’s put aside the fact that the author fails at basic science, the fact remains that 87 PERCENT of China’s future energy requirements will come from fossil-fuels.

      McNeil’s insistence that this somehow is ‘balanced’ by a pitiful renewable energy industry is thoroughly disingenuous and a hallmark of those who stand to profit enormously from the imposition of a carbon dioxide tax in Australia.

      For Ben’s benefit, no country anywhere in the world has imposed an economy wide tax that stupidly includes as a major part of its abatement target the purchase of fresh air over Nigeria.

      Scams and rorting are legion amongst the heavily sibsidised renewable energy industry and in this country has failed at providing a single profitable business model.

      Unsurprisingly, the article fails to consider or detail what the alleged planetary benefits are for all this energy piety.

      But that’s not the real story is it?

    • Al says:

      08:10am | 15/09/11

      Jay the author is a senior research fellow at the Climate Change Research Centre at the University of New South Wales and has a PhD in Climate Science. I’m going to hazard a guess he knows more than you about basic science

    • B says:

      08:49am | 15/09/11

      @Al

      The fact he is a “climate scientist” is what is funny.  Nothing climate “scientists” do conforms to any know definition of scientist.  There models and theories do not go through the normal independant peer review process like other science fields do.  For heaven’s sake they cant even produce a reliable climate model let alone judge what the climate will do according to that model.

    • acotrel says:

      09:04am | 15/09/11

      @Al
      Bullshit baffles brains !

    • Al says:

      10:07am | 15/09/11

      @B - Oh dear, you really don’t know how science works - of course they go through the peer review system.
      They can in fact produce very reliable climate models that grow increasingly reliable every year. They frequently test them against real world expectations and they come up very close to reality - unlike the world you live in.

    • Jay Santos says:

      10:15am | 15/09/11

      A cursory glance of Ben McNeil’s own website sees him conflate weather with climate as proof of AGW.  A fatally flawed assertion and one again that betrays a complete misunderstanding of the science.

      Deeply entrenched as a paid talking head for Big Climate, Mr McNeil is always going to be an advocate for his ‘industry’.

      In that he is no different from Marius Kloppers who now, ironically, has begun to distance himself and his company from the rentseeking opportunism posited by Canberra, its unaccountable bureaucrats and its servile academic proselytes on this issue.

      Today’s outlook for the EU - the only body currently set up for trading the permits Gillard-Brown et al. are so adamant Australia embrace - is buckling and in danger of imminent collapse.

      To continue with this economic folly in the current climate is reckless and pointlessly destructive.

    • RyaN says:

      12:54pm | 15/09/11

      @Al: but Al those so-called accurate models have been proven over and over to be completely false and irrelevant, take the latest factual real scientific discovery http://www.uah.edu/news/newsread.php?newsID=875 that completely debunks all computer models (not to mention their arrays labelled “fudge factor”) http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/04/climategate-the-smoking-code/

      Besides the Junk science behind this fraud, we all already know that this tax has sweet f all to do with climate change and everything to do with wealth redistribution and filling the pockets of the rich leftist elites.

    • Al says:

      02:55pm | 15/09/11

      Okay Ryan (or should that be Mr A Jones). An article from 2007 is not “the latest factual real scientific discovery”. Give this a spin from the last couple of weeks, it explains the role of clouds and you don’t have to read tough science papers, which could make things easier for you - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbqQwRgs5f8.
      As for those terribly inaccurate climate models, they are now the basis for weather prediction 16 months ahead as you can see at http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110912092603.htm 

      But if you want more information on the old skeptic saw of “climate models are fudged and don’t work (boo hoo) go to http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-models.htm . That should round it out for you.

    • PTom says:

      05:54pm | 15/09/11

      @RyaN
      Dr Roy Spencer the guy that deniers have tried to use to say the earth is not warming because he uses satellites over 30 year instead of ground base 100 years.
      Interesting how his recent charts show warming in the same pattern as ground base.

      Any way are you saying that warming is happening and you don’t know why just like Roy because as he can’t explain all he can do is point to a rise in carbon, try to pass it off as a small increase that went from 27 to 39 which has nothing to do with cutdown of trees or the increase in our emissions.

    • B says:

      07:37am | 15/09/11

      You started with this “The topic debated was “is a carbon tax needed to combat global warming”. “

      Then outlined your debate.  It seems you were debating on the merit of innovation in the green energy market, not how a carbon tax is needed to combat global warming.  Which was the purpose of the debate.  Another spin doctor.

    • Joan says:

      07:39am | 15/09/11

      No mention re nuclear power in Euro- countries. - the article is a joke. At best windpower supplies 20% of Denmarks base load- the rest is drawn from nuclear France. And talk about fudge UK power-  only 4.7% renewables, 40% gas and 33% coal, 20% nuclear.  Offshore gas has given UK escape valve. World climate changers and money making scam makers ready to grab the tax dollars with their schemes of buying carbon credits, permits etc etc etc. all in the name of saving the world. No wonder Europe is dead broke with political leaders falling for new age save the world scam.  Direct action is real action - anything else is just a money game that rips off the countries citizens for no real measurable change in world climate.

    • Al says:

      08:12am | 15/09/11

      @Joan - um, the article is about a carbon price. What we do with energy policy is another question entirely.

    • mick says:

      07:47am | 15/09/11

      You get the same old superficial argument on this topic that Australia cannot solve the world carbon problem so it should do nothing.  This is the line which has been coming from the business funded Liberal Party and Tony Abbott has been spruiking this one liner since day one. 
      Those who state that a carbon tax is a money spinner for the Labor government are missing the point and Ben McNeill has written a factual account of the issue.  As a world we do indeed need to act and those who want to do nothing will undoubtedly crow the loudest when Australia is left behind as the rest of the world will eventually move. 
      As has always happened in this country we come up with some wonderful science but are dominated by a backward thinking business community which sees no merit in science and lets other countries make capital out of great Aussie inventions.  Our history is littered with such stories and Ben’s reference to Dr. Zhengrong Shi having to go to China to get his technology put into practice is more of the same.  And China now makes the huge profits.
      In the end Australia can either play catch up when it has no choice or it can position itself on the wave.  I fear that the dishonest fear campaign which is being run by a discredited Liberal Party may win out and we will all pay.  I do wonder if Australia is the “lucky” country some days.

    • Disraeli says:

      07:48am | 15/09/11

      A very welcome and timely piece, from an author across his topic, able to present a reasoned factual and balanced case.

      One of the best pieces to appear on The Punch in recent months.

      And all without fluff, gobbledegook, finger-wagging, exaggeration, misrepresentation, insult or hysterics. I thank the author, and The Punch for showing some spine.

    • B says:

      07:58am | 15/09/11

      @acotrel

      You clearly do not have an understanding of the electricity grid.  “Baseload argument is garbage”  How?  Baseload is required to maintain your level of constant power.  The sun don’t shine all the time and batteries can only hold so much power.

      Solar, even with excellent batteries and switched power supplies still causes more voltage spikes than commercially available electricity.

      “When electricity is cheap the Snowy Scheme pumps water, when it is dear they make electricity ”  What the hell is this?  Talk about trying to confuse the issue.  Noone “makes” electricity.  It is generated from the rotation of magnets within an electric coil, or visa verse.

    • acotrel says:

      08:29am | 15/09/11

      @B
      A lot of schoolboys know how the Snowy Scheme operates !  When electricity is cheap (the sun is shining, and there is plenty of electricity in the grid), the Snowy pumps water frrom low levels to higher levels.  When the clouds hide the sun, and there is not much electricity in the grid, the price is higher, and the Snowy uses the water from higher levels to make more electricity.  That’s how baseload is managed even under normal circumstances with coal fired power generaters !
      I await your further expert comment with interest !

    • C says:

      09:08am | 15/09/11

      “Solar, even with excellent batteries and switched power supplies still causes more voltage spikes than commercially available electricity.”

      Show us more of your ignorance. Batteries don’t spike!

    • B says:

      10:22am | 15/09/11

      “Show us more of your ignorance. Batteries don’t spike! “

      When it is a complete system it can.  I wasnt referring to JUST the batteries but the whole system together.  Shows you ignorance when you pick one part of my comment.

      @Acotrel I know how the snowy mountains scheme operates.  I did case studies on it.  Also I am pretty sure I was referring to the ENTIRE electricity grid.  Not a portion of it. (a significant portion of that but not the entire grid) 

      I also know how baseload is maintained and supplied.  The snowy mountains scheme is used to suppliment the baseload power supply.  Not replace it. It cannot supply the lack of power that will be created without coal fired power stations and with solar/wind farms.  Its not possible to run hydroelectric dams 100% of the time.  It would drain the reservoir.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_Mountains_Scheme

      “The plan was to divert the waters of the Snowy Mountains Region to provide increased electricity generating capacity and to provide irrigation water for the dry west. It was “greeted with enthusiasm by the people of Australia” and was seen to be “a milestone towards full national development”.”  - Increased electricity generation.  It was never made to replace baseload supply.

    • C says:

      01:03pm | 15/09/11

      B - When you are wrong, you are wrong.
      Admit it and move on. Denial isn’t a good look, especially when it comes to science.

    • ShamWow says:

      08:06am | 15/09/11

      The stone age didn’t end because Governments started taxing stone.

    • iansand says:

      08:41am | 15/09/11

      No.  It ended because someone developed smarter, better technology.

      Fossil fuels - stone age
      Alternate energy sources - computer age.

      That, I think, is the point of the article.  Fossil fuels are steadily being superseded.  It won’t happen tomorrow.  It won’t happen in 50 years (but it will be well on the way).  It will happen, and it would be a smart plan to get on board.

      If you want a bet, I’ll take your money.

    • Al says:

      08:50am | 15/09/11

      Nope, the stone age ended because the smarter tribes took on new technologies, developed better weapons and wiped out the guys who said - we’ve got plenty of stone, they’re cheap and they cost less time to turn into weapons than those pie-in-the-sky spears or bows and arrows - why would we want to change?

    • AAAdam says:

      10:11am | 15/09/11

      @ Al - And the “smarter” tribes did this all without a tax. I guess that old saying “necessity is the mother of all invention” must be true. Funny though, I’ve never heard anyone say “taxation is the mother of all invention”

    • fml says:

      11:03am | 15/09/11

      AAAdam,

      ““taxation is the mother of all invention””
      Maybe not but it did allow diversification of skills, it meant that people didnt have to build their own roads, the government built them, the people could concentrate on their jobs.

      Taxation (in principle) may not be the mother of all invention, but it is a necessity.

    • jf says:

      12:55pm | 15/09/11

      iansand says:08:41am | 15/09/11

      “No.  It ended because someone developed smarter, better technology.”

      So we don’t need a tax to encourage us to switch from fossil fuels to more efficient forms of energy?

      Didn’t think so.

    • David C says:

      01:54pm | 15/09/11

      yep it was replaced by a more efficient technology. And that is the point , you dont get there by making fossil fuels more expensive, that just penalises those that can least afford it, you get there by making alternate energy cheaper. This could be achieved by putting a small (2-3cent ) levy on fuel and using all proceeds to fund innovation and research in to these technologies. The global warming alarmists have shot themselves in the foot. All the wild claims have just invited people to argue and dispute, bogging down the whole debate . If we all calmed down and realised and accepted that we have time to solve this then we can adpot smart policy. The Gillard policy is not smart policy. And the 5% target is hopelessly unachievable given current techonoligies. All that is going to happen is we will ship a stack of cash offshore to buy permits from other countries.
      And no this policy wont mean a ton of green jobs, they dont exist yet.

    • iansand says:

      01:59pm | 15/09/11

      jf - Only if you are a stone age critter.

      Of course we don’t need a tax.  I see a price on emissions as a way of charging people to use our atmosphere as a rubbish dump into which they discard waste products.  If you want to get rid of other industrial waste you expect to pay a price.  Why should emissions be any different?

    • Al says:

      03:14pm | 15/09/11

      @David C - A couple of things. A tax or ETS actually is the cheapest approach to technological transformation. It doesn’t rely on governments selecting who to fund, the market takes the lead and the best, most affordable technologies get developed.

      The argument about 5% being unachievable is the typical big business response. We saw the same with the sulphur dioxide ETS in the 80s and again with refrigerant chemicals. In both cases big business got cracking on innovation, reduced these emissions by double and even triple what they expected and with negligible impact on their bottom line.

      An ETS is smart, cheap, affordable and incredibly damned effective judging by real world examples.

      The other interesting comparison is that in both these cases big business screamed blue murder and claimed they were all going to be ruined.

    • jf says:

      09:17pm | 15/09/11

      iansand says: 01:59pm | 15/09/11

      “If you want to get rid of other industrial waste you expect to pay a price.”

      I’m all for user pay.

      “Why should emissions be any different?”

      Let’s assume that I agree that carbon dioxide was harmful to the environment: this tax does not make the bit emitters pay. Anyone who believes that carbon dioxide is harmful to the environment should be outraged at this tax.

    • David C says:

      09:42pm | 15/09/11

      With respect Al I believe you are underestimating the task at hand. Personally I dont believe just buying offshore permits to achieve the goal is really what we want to do.
      The examples you cite actually occurred because alternatives were already available at a reasonable cost.
      I am not arguing a big business case I am just stating that to maintian our economic growth (which should be forefront to our thinking) we would need to build a ridiculous amount of solar panels or wind farms or nuclear plants(in the case of nuclear plants I think the number is something like 39 at projected GDP levels)
      The alternative is to slow down GDP dramatically which would have huge economic and social costs of course

    • John says:

      08:09am | 15/09/11

      Germans should keep their nuclear power! Allowing incompetent military’s such at the British and french military’s with nukes will in danger European security. I say Germany should develop and keep nuclear technology just encase any threats from the east come along. The germanys should be given a lead role in Europe’s military security with the support of all european nations.

    • MarkS says:

      09:17am | 15/09/11

      @John
      I hope you are not assuming that the German military is competent. They have the most PC military in the world. More than half of the troops are unfit & indeed never where fit to be infantry but were unable to be rejected.

      They do nothing without a lawyer’s approval & heaven help any German soldier who fires his weapon at a foe. A shiny seat lawyer will declare he breached the phone book size “rules of engagement” & he will spend years defending himself in court.

      One of the reasons Australia went with the M1 Abrams MBT was that the Germans would control access to spare parts for the Leopard 2 MBT & they have a history of stopping spare parts going to a nation involved in a conflict.

    • marley says:

      09:17am | 15/09/11

      @John - first, we are talking nuclear power, not nuclear weapons.  There is a difference. A number of countries have the former but not the latter.  Second, “Germanys” ?  There’s only one Germany these days.  Third, could you please take a few lessons in grammar, punctuation and pluralization?  Reading your comments gives me a headache.

    • Steve Putnam says:

      07:42pm | 15/09/11

      You are so wrong about so many things!!!!! Firstly and most importantly nobody wins nuclear wars. Secondly the German military in its present state couldn’t push a sick girl off a chair. German troops during the present Gulf War were not allowed any where near the fighting and gained on average six kilograms on their tour of duty. The idea that they could mix it with the Brits who have had pretty well continuous military operational experience for the last fifty years is simply ludicrous!

    • John says:

      08:08pm | 15/09/11

      It’s my pleasure Marley! Your a slow reader! if you were fast, you wouldn’t pick up on my mistakes.

    • Anna C says:

      08:57am | 15/09/11

      Now is not the time to be introducing a Carbon tax with the GFC Mark 2 just around the corner. We need to be doing things to maintain our international competitiveness not introducing a new impost on business.

      What is wrong with introducing a Carbon tax or Carbon Trading scheme once every other country in the G20 has? We are a small country why should we do all the heavy lifting?

    • Erick says:

      09:23am | 15/09/11

      Nearly every other country in the G20 already has.  The United States Government is holding out (because the Republicans are even crazier climate science deniers than the Liberals - quite some achievement), but California (in itself one of the largest economies in the world) already has one.

    • Jay Santos says:

      01:27pm | 15/09/11

      “...but California (in itself one of the largest economies in the world) already has one….”

      You clearly know nothing about the current economic state of California.

      Hilarious.

      Next.

    • PTom says:

      02:04pm | 15/09/11

      Jay Santos,
      California is the 6th biggest, which would make large then Australia.

      @Anna C
      You might want to go thru that list again because even some are listed on the links you provide.

      Canada is in the WCI with California and other parts of the USA
      India, Russia have a Carbon Price
      China, Brazil, Japan, Turkey, Argentina have Carbon trading
      South Korea, South Africa have Carbon taxes
      Others like Indonesia and Mexico are working on have something.

    • DocBud says:

      09:02am | 15/09/11

      What price did they put on stones to move beyond the stone age?

    • George says:

      09:03am | 15/09/11

      Interesting article that basically talks that we need rice on carbon without any reasons given. Also your a few points you neglect to mention:
      1. Mr Kloppers has already stated that Australia should not move ahead of the world, its is economic stupidity
      2. Australia (with apopulation of 22m) Carbon Tax will in three months collect more revenue than the European Scheme (with a population of 800m+) has in five years
      3. Britain is becoming a basket case with rising unemployment with so much of their manufacturing having moved offshore where it is cheaper to manufacture. Also please report now how much electricty the UK is now importing from Frances nuclear stations.
      4. Mr Shi moved his company to China (with China’s backing) because it is cheaper to manufacture there.
      5. China is the worlds largest manufacturer of solar panels knowing full well of the wests stupid ideology will make them even more money.
      6. Green jobs created in UK, please list them?
      7. The only advantage Australia has was cheap energy and we are now making sure that this is no longer the case.
      8. Australia already has over 300 green schemes which in effect we have been doing alot in regards to reducing emmissions

      What the Carbon Tax is essentially doing is because not everyone can afford a Mercedes we will simply raise the prices for all the other cars to equal a mercedes cost and then say WOW look at everybody now buying a mercedes.

    • Al says:

      10:11am | 15/09/11

      Mr Shi moved his company to China because they gave him the financial backing to commercialise his discovery while Australia refused.

    • Super D says:

      09:04am | 15/09/11

      Actually we can look beyond coal without a price on carbon.  The government could legislate the staged closure of all coal powered generation in the country tomorrow.  It would be completely transparent and would move us beyond coal.  What it wouldn’t do is hide the massive increase in electricity costs due to extraordinarily inefficient renewable energy.

    • MarkS says:

      09:55am | 15/09/11

      Should any Australian Government to stupid enough to do this & manage to get it passed. & implemented, the economy would collapse; people would quite literally be starving. 

      Should this continue we would reach the green’s paradise of back to year zero, with an Australian population of around 100,000. Obviously this would not happen as the Government would fall long before such a program could be fully implemented. 

      Those who wish for renewable energy to replace coal etc may as well wish for manna from heaven. At least in relation to manna from heaven there are dodgy witness reports about it happening.

    • MadKat of Melbourne says:

      11:36am | 15/09/11

      Super D - ” It would be completely transparent and would move us beyond coal” - that’s only half a plan - if you shut down coal what will you move us to - you’ve failed to mention this -

    • Super D says:

      12:03pm | 15/09/11

      Hey I’m not advocating it.  I think it would be a moronic thing to do.  I’m simply refuting the authors suggestion that a price on carbon is necessary to move beyond coal.  I don’t think either is necessary.

    • kc says:

      09:09am | 15/09/11

      I have to admit I haven’t followed this debate closely, but why do we need a price on carbon to achieve all of these benefits? If those benefits were so obvious, surely players will emerge who will reap the benefits of the forsight, and the penalty for the traditional energy producers will be loss of market share? Ok if we want to kickstart give some government handouts - fair enough, but there’s no real need for a specific tax for this purpose?

    • Thoughts says:

      10:24am | 15/09/11

      Its because its not a tax….

      If you go along the line of handouts, you’re essentially following abbott’s plan to give money to existing energy suppliers - who will have no incentive to change. They’re being rewarded for doing what they are doing.
      And all of us would pay - guess what? Abbott’s proposal is more of a tax than Gillards (!). Because it will be money taken from everyone, either through taxes we already pay or a specific levy or something for the purpose of raising extra money to give the handout. Follow?
      The abbott plan is the tax plan.

      Under the current carbon pricing plan - what is created is not a ‘tax’ but a market of trading rights. The initial rights are purchased from the government, but then they can be bought, sold, traded, held, used in the course of business via a market.
      Businesses which continue to use technology that generates large carbon emissions will be either encouraged to find lower carbon alternatives to reduce the amount of credits they must buy, or buy credits generated from businesses that *do* develop carbon-reducing (and therefore credit-generating) technology.
      But the government doesn’t mandate who or what those businesses are or what the technology might be - as with the opposition idea. The opposition would pick who gets the money, take it from all of us via tax, and give it to those companies.
      ...incidentally.. the opposition idea imposes no deadline or requirement on recipients of the handout to actually *do* anything to meet targets. You’d end up with the energy equivalent of arts funding.. “here”.. Ta.. “What did you do with it”? - I ate a cat on youtube…

      In time, the economy of scale and the success or failure of various non-fossil energy technologies (hydrogen.. solar voltaic..hot-rock solar.. wind.. wave.. geotherm.. as well as technology we dont even know about yet) will reveal a clear market leader - what the government plan does is create that market *now* and encourage people to start finding that leader, whatever it might be.

      As for individual impacts in cost of living and home energy consumption… a price on carbon makes non-fossil energy options for your home cheaper than they are now. The developer is getting $23 income for every tonne they dont produce via a credit to be sold to companies that do generate it.
      ...and if you say “$23 is nothing” - why are opponents of the scheme saying $23 is enough to kill all industry in the nation (which is a bald lie in the first place)?
      If it is severely bad for emitters… then it is severely good for reducers.
      If it is negligible for reducers, it is negligible for emitters.
      I reckon its in between… enough to encourage an alternative, but not so much to actively damage existing industry in any way. I mean - if your business uses as much energy as 10 houses, thats roughly $2,300 per year in carbon emissions.
      But if a business uses as much energy as 10 households - you’d expect a turnover of at least 10 households annual income. About $800,000. Low estimate.
      If $2,300 will send you broke on turnover of $800,000… guess what? You’re already broke.

    • fml says:

      11:10am | 15/09/11

      Its because businesses will only ever think about their bottom dollar, CEO’s will only care about their term, much like politicians who would have the courage to make a five to ten year plan when they have a two year term?

      It can be argued that it will be financially beneficial for companies in ten years time, but not in the short term, and no CEO will take a hit for the immediate just so some other bloke will make profits in the future.

    • kc says:

      12:17pm | 15/09/11

      Fair enough, but then the argument given in the article is not as compelling as it sounds. If it were, then there would be no government intervention required, surely.

    • Thoughts says:

      02:17pm | 15/09/11

      @kc

      The government is only intervening in the sense that they have committed (and so has the opposition, just quietly) to reduce carbon emissions by X percent over a certain period.

      But they have decided to do this by *not* intervening in the market - not giving handouts, not deciding what technology to reward and what to ignore.. and instead creating a new market where emitters and reducers buy and sell from each other according to a starting price - and a cap. And all technologies get a shot..
      .. you can continue calling this new market an ‘intervention’ in and of itself if you want to… it probably is, but there wont be intervention in that market once it is in place.

      Remember, the opposition plan is not to scrap the whole carbon thing entirely, because they cant. They have also committed to reach a reduction in emissions by a certain timeframe.

      Given the government and the opposition have agreed to achieve the same outcome… which is better?
      A) taking taxes from everyone, and raising more if required, and giving this money to existing energy companies without requiring them to commit to an enforceable plan of action before they get it, nor to require repayment if the reductions are not met… Or
      B) Make carbon emitters pay for their emissions via buying credits from a market, and tell them they cant go above a certain level. Plus - let people sell technology into that market that creates credits & reduces emissions.

      The option of doing nothing at all, ignoring emissions and allowing fossil fuel usage to accelerate until it is gone… is not actually an option. Because even under that scenario… you must have non-fossil eventually. Why wait until its your only choice? Given that you cant do nothing, and “intervention” must happen at some point - why not do it now, and why reward existing polluters with a handout? Why not make them pay for their emissions?

    • kc says:

      03:47pm | 15/09/11

      @thoughts

      Good comparison of the various plans, but I suppose the premise of the article is that irrespective of the approach taken, there it is irrefutable economic sense in moving towards green energy production, which makes me wonder why we’re not just letting those savvy entrepreneurs seize the opportunity in the existing market. The author of the article is convinced, so perhaps he could even stand to make himself very rich if his statements are true, and help fix the problem in the process… win-win?

      Regarding establishing a new market (carbon trading) vs government handouts (subsidizing) - interesting question. I would definitely agree with the view that in our global economy that it makes little sense to try to establish artificial domestic markets (unless they grow organically) and can sympathise with the view that this hamstrings australian businesses ability to compete. I don’t claim to be an avid political watcher or budget analyst, but I certainly recall plenty of occasions where certain industries (e.g. clean energy in this case) have received government incentives or subsidies to increase their global competitiveness or the viability of their industry, so am comfortable with that pattern (as it is controlled by the standard budgetary process), but obviously this requires community wide support and commitment to actually make the investment required (e.g. NASA in the 50s -> 80s). I wouldn’t think increasing the operating costs of an existing industry will necessarily have any bearing on the likelihood of another industry succeeding (seems like a tenuous link to me), but hey, maybe I’m just missing the point.

    • Esteban says:

      04:46pm | 15/09/11

      kc. “The author of the article is convinced, so perhaps he could even stand to make himself very rich if his statements are true, and help fix the problem in the process… win-win?”

      The author is Senior research fellow at the Climate Change Research Centre at the University of New South Wales. That might be the quintessential cushy gig with a low risk of redundancy given the present state of politics.

      Why would the author strike out in business and risk his financial security. It is easier to have others do it.

    • thoughts says:

      05:16pm | 15/09/11

      kc
      “I wouldn’t think increasing the operating costs of an existing industry will necessarily have any bearing on the likelihood of another industry succeeding”

      Correct - but you forgot the credits. Lets say I make solar panels. Currently I can sell them for $3,000 per installation. The end.
      Next year I can sell it for $3,000 as well as sell $23 x as many credits as I get from them to a coal mine.
      Ergo - my product is cheaper (for me.. I may or may not pass the saviung on to my client. But if I dont, someone else will.. so I’d better).

      Plus.. if I am the coal mine, I am an existing carbon emitter. I have to give $23 per tonne to some guy making energy that competes with me. Why not spend that $23 in-house on R&D to find my own low carbon technology? Now I’ve reduced my own costs and generated a new revenue stream when I sell the new clean energy & credits that go with it.

    • DocBud says:

      09:19am | 15/09/11

      “For the first time, clean energy in China is expanding faster than coal. This is not to suggest there is more clean energy overall (far from it), but over the last few years, despite flagging international climate negotiations, the worldwide shift to pricing carbon pollution is happening.”

      When people make statements like this without the supporting figures you just know that they are being disingenuous.

      If you produce 2 GW from “clean” energy and increase it by 1 GW, hey presto, a 50% expansion. If you produce 700 GW from coal and increase that by 100 GW you have a paltry 14% expansion so clean energy is knocking the socks off coal and we can all point to China as a wonderful example of why we should have a carbon dioxide tax in Australia.

      It is also strange that the statement “the worldwide shift to pricing carbon pollution is happening” appears in this paragraph when the author concedes that this amazing expansion is not happening because China has put a price on carbon.

    • John Smythe says:

      09:19am | 15/09/11

      hmmm well written but I have a couple of questions/concerns….

      You start with :
      “As the carbon tax starts to ...”  seems you missed good ol’ Mal’s article yesterday. He believes it’s NOT a tax. I do prefer your understanding and consistency with eveeryone but Mal.

      I understand and fully support your viewpoint on research required, but I still do not believe that :
      “A carbon price reduces emissions and promotes innovation to commercialise clean technology to supply domestic demand.”

      A carbon price will only reduce emissions if it hurts businesses so bad, AND they don’t counteract those prices by passing those costs to the end user.

      To put this a different way….raising the tax on cigarettes will prevent people from smoking. Maybe it had some impact, but certainly not enough.

      I have issue with blanket conclusions that say, this tax is a must, and it WILL REDUCE emissions.

      If there is truly some serious immediate requirement for imposing some sort of cost structure around the current issue, then why has the implementation not been given better thought by the current government?

      May I ask you, Ben, how you feel about the way the current government has handled (read : miss-handled) this very important issue and its implementation? As an Australian, I feel very let down by this rush job.

      Anyway, cheers for a good read!

    • Keith Hammersmith says:

      10:06am | 15/09/11

      “The fact is Australia can’t ‘look beyond coal’ without pricing carbon pollution.”
      Stated as Fact,  yet to use your own argument, there wasn’t a tax on stones to get us past the stone age,  there wasn’t a tax on horses that got Henry ford moving.
      There is no reason that technology will not advance as it has always done with out this ineffective tax, that solves nothing but makes our companies internationally uncompetitive,  thus making them have less money and less money to develop new tech.

    • kc says:

      12:22pm | 15/09/11

      That’s the way it looks to me. A bit odd actually.

    • RyaN says:

      10:15am | 15/09/11

      There really isn’t anything left to debate is there, fact is that the government couldn’t give a flying stuff what you think or what you opinion is, the fact is that the vast majority of Australians don’t want this and the fact is that Tony Abbott is going to massacre the Labor party in the next election followed by the ending of this fraud on the public of Australia.
      This pathetic posturing and propaganda to try and convince you to buy into their fraud is laughable at best.

    • Erick says:

      10:28am | 15/09/11

      Even if Abbott wins the next election, he won’t be able to get his repealing legislation through the Senate. And even if he could, it’s all going to be locked in with embedded property rights that will cost tens of billions of dollars to unpick. The carbon tax (which is really an ETS with a fixed price for a couple of years) is here forever. Get used to it.

    • RyaN says:

      11:53am | 15/09/11

      @Seano: we’ll see mate, we’ll see. Fact is that the first thing Abbott will do is put forward the repeal of the carbon tax which will obviously fly through the lower house (and so it should since they would be representing the views of the vast majority of Australians) then when the upper house knocks it back he will force a double dissolution and the green filth plus labor scum will be wiped clean out of the upper house. The bill will be re-introduced and the tax repealed. Done deal!

      Like it or not its going to go, get used to the fact Seano and stop posting under other peoples names.

    • Erick says:

      02:18pm | 15/09/11

      First, I’m Erick not Seano.

      Second, Abbott will do no such thing (assuming he gets the chance) because it will be too expensive to compensate for all the property he will be confiscating.  All those tradeable carbon permits are property and the constitution says that if the government is going to confiscate property it has to compensate the owners. The sums will be staggeringly large.

      Not to mention all those pension increases and income tax cuts that are coming on 1 July 2012 and which he’ll have to take away if he loses the carbon tax revenue. I’m sure the Labor Party would love to fight a double dissolution where they can say that PM Abbott wants to take the food out of the mouths of pensioners.

      But it won’t come to this. Abbott will grumble about having his hands tied and that will be that.

      The only deal that is done is the carbon tax itself.  It’s here and it’s not going anywhere.

    • JT says:

      02:37pm | 15/09/11

      What is with you moderators letting this fool seano post under anothers pseudonym?

    • Matt says:

      10:19am | 15/09/11

      Wouldn’t pure supply/demand mechanisms in the global economy make coal less and less valuable as other nations moved to other energy sources, until it was simply not profitable to dig the stuff out of the ground?

      Wouldn’t this be a *true* market-based mechanism, rather than artificially inflating the price?

      Typewriters stopped being made because people stopped buying them. Not because their price was artificially inflated by Government.

    • squabblenomore says:

      01:19pm | 15/09/11

      How will it get less valuable Matt? It will become more valuable if anything. Coalstills gives you the most ‘bang for your buck’ so to say.  Its still cheaper than other energies because of the infrastructure in place already. Coal wont run out for a long time either,  there are too many greedy people with little care for what world there kids live in to make this industry become obselete in the time frame the scientists are proposing.  The carbon price will put a price on polluting so it will give companies a disincentive to pollute, and an incentive to use renewable enrgy.
      Typewriters in all fairness are easily replaced and updated because of the low cost per unit involved, coal and clean energy has a bit more money invested into it. Its all abourt time frames really.

    • Matt says:

      03:56pm | 15/09/11

      @squabblenomore: Ben up there is saying that “it doesn’t matter how much stuff we may have in the ground, if the world markets are moving against it, it will stay there, unused, unsought and, crucially, uneconomic.”

      Why, then, do we need to price carbon if this will happen naturally anyway? Ben also states that “there is more wealth to be generated, better health and greater economic opportunities to be found in cleaning up the world than polluting it”. Which is in direct opposition to you stating that “there are too many greedy people with little care for what world there kids live in to make this industry become obselete (sic)”. More wealth generating opportunities would mean the greedy would be more inclined to take on clean energy, not the other way around.

      Maybe you watched too many Captain Planet episodes when you were younger? Big corporations don’t generally go out of their way to rape and pillage the planet, you know. Especially if there are monetary incentives to clean up their act, as Ben claims. Either that, or Ben is lying.

      Regardless of all this, you cannot put artificial shackles on an industry, and then call it an efficient market mechanism. Thats just not how it works.And you can especially not take Nuclear out of the mix, just because you don’t like it or have a quasi-religious aversion to the technology (such as the Greens).

    • Knemon says:

      10:23am | 15/09/11

      Nice article Ben. After reading this article it is difficult to argue that Australia is not heading in the right direction, although, unlike the meeting Ben McNeil mentioned, where some people were swayed in their thinking, the same will not apply to the ‘head in the sand’ mentality of some Punch regulars…they will continue to spruik their tiresome rhetoric.

      It is most heartening that the CEO of BHP has a different take on this issue than that of the conservative side of politics in Australia does…the sky is falling party lead by Tony Abbott would be well advised to listen to the likes of Marius Kloppers; they might learn something, certainly more than just a new three word slogan.

    • Aitch B says:

      11:40am | 15/09/11

      Disreali and Persephone…..

      Husband and wife? Brother and sister?

      Both spinning and flogging the party line as hard as they possibly can.

      Definitely Labor apparatchiks!! smile

      By your own admissions the higher income earners will get far less compensation that lower income earners. So regardless of any environmental benefits that may or may not come from this legislation, the fact is that lower income earners will be subsidised by higher income earners.

      Is that not wealth redistribution?

    • squabblenomore says:

      12:37pm | 15/09/11

      To everyone that thinks a carbon price wasnt on the books and is a total jaw dropping suprise that no one wants, I think you have the memory of a fish. Most Australians want action on climate change and thats part of the reason why Liberal was booted, Keven got dumped in favour of Julia and why the Greens are rising up the ranks. I thought it was pretty clear.

      Plus is there anyone in this mud throwing fight that can think of a better way to start cutting emissions and level the playing fields for renewable energy. Id be interested to know, really! Srsly.

    • marley says:

      01:09pm | 15/09/11

      @Well, yes, the ETS that the ALP abandoned when they still had clear control of the House would have been better.

    • squabblenomore says:

      02:51pm | 15/09/11

      Same thing though really and that was way worse than this ETS.  Ineffective policy that would have been inefficient and inequitable and locked in a weak target. This ETS has more flexibility and not as many handouts amongst other things. A better system if you are comparing the two.

    • Obob says:

      12:49pm | 15/09/11

      Conroy Refuses To Deny He’s A Sceptic, As Most Rational People Are
      Sep 15 2011


      I’d have answered in exactly the same way and without telling a single lie, because leftist/warmist journalists usually don’t know the gaps in their own arguments:

      FRAN KELLY (ABC Radio National):

      Australian newspaper columnist Niki Savva wrote recently that you were the Cabinet Minister who had confessed privately, quote, “that political life had become intolerable, the carbon tax was destroying the Government and you have grave doubts about climate change, revealing yourself as one more sceptic in the Government.” That’s a quote from Niki Savva’s column. Did you say all those things?

      STEPHEN CONROY (Communications Minister):

      Well it’s a little hard to comment on an unnamed source and the context of a conversation.

      FRAN KELLY:

      Did you say those things?

      STEPHEN CONROY:
      So, I’m not in a position to speculate about uninformed sources.

      FRAN KELLY:

      Well, can you speculate on whether you said anything like that?

      STEPHEN CONROY:
      I said – look, let’s be clear. I support the Government’s climate change position. The economy needs to be reformed, waiting as the Tony Abbott policy is, is not going to bring forward the reforms necessary for a cleaner economy so I absolutely support the Government’s policy.

      FRAN KELLY:

      Do you have grave doubts about climate change?

      STEPHEN CONROY:

      I absolutely support the Government’s policy position. There’s been plenty of debate and plenty of argument. The majority of scientists argue that it’s real, that humans are effecting this and the Government is responding and I support that.

      FRAN KELLY:

      So you don’t think climate change is not real? You don’t have great doubts about it?

      STEPHEN CONROY:
      I think the climate’s absolutely changing. There’s not an argument that the climate is changing.

      The fact is that Conroy, like several saner ministers in this Government, doubts that man is responsible for most of the warming, that the warming is necessarily bad, and that it makes economic sense for Australia to “stop” it, particularly when few other emitters are helping out.

      It’s just amazing that journalists are taking so long to work this out, and to ask those sceptics about it.

    • squabblenomore says:

      01:47pm | 15/09/11

      Conroys a dickhead, I dont think anyone is denying that. He’s the one that wants to control the internet with a big black list and a stick.
      Im sure there are Liberals who think climate change was a real and present danger before they crossed the sceptic line in favour of AGW. 

      There will always be deniers until they are up to there knees in ocean.

      It doesnt take away the fact that most scientists are presented with overwhelming proof of man made climate change. Im all for doing something instead of doing nothing.

    • thatmosis says:

      12:58pm | 15/09/11

      “Australia is the first country in the world that has solar cost parity to gird.”
      And thats supposed to make me feel better because. This parity that you speak of will be cut to almost nothing when it is realised that it is costing money that this country can ill afford.
        What I am trying to get over to the brain dead warmists is that Solar is not an alternative solution to coal and never will be, firstly cost, secondly efficiency and thirdly no peak load power base. Have a look at the Uni that has just spent $7,000,000 on solar to give them 6% of their power requirements, the whole things a joke and we are the bunnies. Wind power across the world is failing because of the costs involved and the fact that the wind wont do what it is told and blow all the time.  http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/oct/19/renewable-energy-greenhouse-carbon-emissions
      http://dddusmma.wordpress.com/2011/08/23/wind-failure/
      http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2009/08/06/is-texas-a-wind-power-success-or-failure/
      Some of these examples are slightly older but it stilll demonstartates that wind power is a crock along with Solar. The only other source of power thats going great guns is nuclear but we arent allowed to have that just export the uranium. One day we may come out of the stone age and move up there with the big boys but I wont be holding my breath.

    • FINK says:

      03:09pm | 15/09/11

      thatmosis,
      There is only ONE natural constantly occurring event happening every millisecond of every day that would provide more energy than all the world could even need and if this event ever stops we are all stuffed anyway. I am referring to 2 thirds of this world, the ocean tide. If someone could harvest this power source then problem solved. Unfortunately I do not see the Carbon Tax being used to harvest this powerful source.

    • Dr B S Goh Australian in Asia says:

      03:34pm | 15/09/11

      @ thatmosis.

      Well said.

      There is so much incorrect information put out by the Govt on solar energy and wind power versus coal power.

      I suggest politicians should have a heart to heart talk with CEO’s of solar energy and get them to tell the truth about solar as an alternative to coal in Australia to generate our electricity.

      China recently stated that it hoped that by 2015 in some parts of China solar power can compete with coal. That is in an economic system where solar energy materials and labour are less than 20% of their costs in Australia. Furthermore Chin imports expensive thermal coal from Australia and elsewhere.

      This means Australia can best hope to achieve solar energy being competitive to coal some time AFTER 2040. So the time to have a carbon tax is around 2040. Hope the once great party the ALP can survive until then with so so much crap in its logic for the carbon tax.

    • Dr B S Goh says:

      08:03pm | 15/09/11

      @ PTom. Thanks for your links.

      Readers can read your link http://www.climatespectator.com.au/commentary/solar-pv-grid-parity-now-what and make their own judgment.

      One interesting comment by a reader to that link is that if PV Solar is so close to coal power as claimed then there is really no need to have the carbon tax. Smart power operators will be streaming to use solar energy.

      Spain nearly went broke subsidising solar power and getting 20% unemployment.

    • PTom says:

      01:30am | 16/09/11

      @thatmosis,
      I guess you miss Combet comment today about a Ford engine factory in the USA that uses 100% wind power or other factories that use wind or solar as their prime power.

      @DR BS,
      Solar alone will not provided a 100% base load just like coal. Parity will allow end user consumers to switch to reduce their own emissions.

    • Emily says:

      01:18pm | 15/09/11

      It is interesting that in Australia it is reported that the UK and Europe have had a type of carbon tax for years.  That they invest heaps of money into green energies. In Europe they write what Australia is trying to implement.  In The Netherlands, where they have hundreds and hundreds of wind turbines, it only accounts for 5% of total energy generation.  At the same time, like the NBN, copper is used in wind turbines and this is being stripped from wind turbines.  Before too long we probably all have to resort to digging up the copper in the NBN to pay our ever increasing utility bills.  This is such a BS tax and doesn’t help the environment.  It is a revenue raising exercise for the federal government.

    • PTom says:

      02:15pm | 15/09/11

      There will be very little copper in the NBN. There is more in the old network.

    • Dodge says:

      01:53pm | 15/09/11

      Great article, one of several decent well argued articles on climate change here recently… Which of course means post after hateful ranting nonsense.

      In a sense I can understand that given the one-sided opinion offered by our… *ahem* well distributed press and media in this country over the last few years. A press that has aligned themself with the right wing and so of course have been ruthlessly negative about a prodigiously progressive carbon pricing system which the entire world will soon follow suit on (or in full swing already).

      Jouralists must take some responsibility for ignoring so much science and going for the popularist grab in their articles. The thing is negativity and hate stick in the mind of the reader far more effectively, and so attempting to talk facts, logic and data is counter to what they want to hear, so they will disregard it.

      At the end of of the day, hearing Australians wanting to line the pockets of overseas businesman (remember only 16% of mining companies here are Australian owned) is far too depressing. Whether you want to see this as revenue raising or chaning the way business use the environment is up to the reader, I don’t care either way… It’s our resources, it only comes out of the ground once. Damn straight BHP with their mind numbing profit advancement can return some of that resource money to Australia as a whole. It’s that or persist with our 3rd world (resources mostly), 2 tier economy.

    • Shane says:

      02:25pm | 15/09/11

      sorry, it’s hard to read articles presenting themselves as unbiased when the authors viewpoints are so clearly biased by the position he holds at NSWU. Sorry Punch, Epic Fail.

    • pointyup says:

      02:38pm | 15/09/11

      In all this posturing one thing remains unsaid.  Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant.  Trees absorb it and humans exhale it.  It is an essential part of life.
        The real need is to produce vastly more electricity and at much lower cost and with greater reliability.  All that say Nuclear Power.
        Oil companies will soon lose their grip on the motorist’s wallet as we move to electric cars.  Power companies are positioning them selves to fill the vacancy.
        By all means keep up the research into alternative power sources because we cant see round corners. Remember that an athlete does not carry 2 house bricks into a race when winning is everything.

    • fml says:

      03:20pm | 15/09/11

      No but, Carbon Monoxide is, i think the argument has just been hijacked by the spruikers.

    • Disraeli says:

      05:53pm | 15/09/11

      Oh dear. The argument is about pricing all the man-made gasses, CO2, CH4, N2O and others, all with varying power to contribute to man-made global warming. Expressed, for convenience, in CO2 equivalent tonnes. CO2 and Carbon price for short.

      Enough with the “essential” diversion.  We’re not talking about CO2 in Nature. We’re talking about *all* the emissions we are responsible for, that are putting global temperatures on the rise.

      Nuclear power, on a large enough commercial scale to make any significant impact on emissions is two or three decades away, if we started planning now.

      But thanks to 10 or 15 years of delay tactics by the Howards of this world, we now need action to get significant reductions in hand *within* the next two or three decades - not after.

    • PTom says:

      01:37am | 16/09/11

      CO2 is a pollutant. Ask the people in maccas in the USA after one of their customers died and another 7 in hospital.

    • James says:

      03:21pm | 15/09/11

      Coal is a finite resource and will only get more expensive to use for power from this point on, renewable energy uses free fuel and can only get cheaper as it is developed, basic economics.

    • neil says:

      03:33pm | 15/09/11

      More alarmist propoganda, there is no world wide move to a carbon price or carbon free economies in fact itr’s the total opposite. Most governments and economists realise that carbon will be our main source of power for at least the next century and probably much longer.

      The only correct fact in McNeils article is that the industrial age will not run out of carbon, digging up coal and oil is the easiest but not the only way to get carbon based energy. Long after peek oil and coal we will still be making carbon based fuels in factories, we will never run out of the stuff, it’s recyclable.

    • James says:

      04:12pm | 15/09/11

      Last year investment in renewable energy outstripped investment in fossil fuels, the total global spend on renewables was 211 billion up from 160 billion last year, most investors in the world disagree with your arguement.

      Never let the facts get in the way of a good story eh.

    • right turn only says:

      04:58pm | 15/09/11

      The Carbon Tax Legislation will pass both houses of federal parliament before the US President arrivesf or his Australian tour on November 16 & 17 2011.The Carbon Tax will become law on July 1 2012.
      The US President will put Australia back in the black and out of the red with china!.

    • I hate pies says:

      06:05pm | 15/09/11

      The premise of the carbon tax is to make fossil fuel derived power more expensive than renewable power. We could cut power usage by using more efficient equipment, but business would already do that if it was economically beneficial.
      If the lefty researchers spent less time trying to convince us the world is about to cave in to protect their income and more time coming up with technology that was cheaper than fossil fuels the “problem” would be solved. All businesses would use the cheaper energy. AGW is not the fault of big business at all - blame can be directly apportioned to the researchers. Until we have economically viable alternatives we should do nothing.
      Another alternative is to just keep using coal until it’s gone - we’ve got heaps; we don’t need to worry about this for decades.
      By the way, where is our steel going to come from when we can’t did coal up any more…ahh of course; China - silly me.
      PS. Does anyone else think it’s time to ban Alotrel from here? Even suspend him/her for a week to give us a rest. I can only assume he’s being paid by the government in some way, ‘cos he certainly doesn’t do any work. Maybe he’s already made his fortune fromt the green industry…I’ve just had a thought - who’s made a ship load of money from the green industry? Tim Blabbery and Al Bore? Acotrel is one of these two - I’m tipping Al because Tim doesn’t have the time to because he’s too busy sand bagging his water-front mansion.

    • Dark Horse says:

      07:58pm | 15/09/11

      Any tax that is so bad that it has to “compensate” large numbers of taxpayers (and many who don’t actually pay any tax) and which achieves such very poor targets is seriously flawed.

      Carbon production in Australia isn’t a problem. Most alternatives available in Australia for power generation cannot sustain a base load ie, the minimum required to keep the place running as well as coal. Coal is efficient and we have heaps of it. While we need to come up with sensible alternatives for when our coal runs out, wind farms, solar panels and geo thermal generated power aren’t yet appropriate. And neither are they all green.

      This whole beat up is a cynical attempt to redistribute wealth and fill the coffers of a government that is collapsing by the minute. This will be it’s death knell.

    • Disraeli says:

      09:58pm | 15/09/11

      We’re part of a global problem, and a major supplier to global markets of key contributors to AGW emissions. We need to be part of a global solution.

      Coal isn’t particularly efficient. It’s just cheap. Because we’ve not been costing in the long term emission effects. Time to make energy production and use more efficient - the free market has had long enough to address the problem under its own….steam.

      On household costs vs efficiency of carbon pricing for big business,
      Garnaut made these points:

      “It is sometimes suggested that providing households with assistance would cancel out the benefits of introducing a carbon price. It is said that, if we impose a carbon price that costs a household $100 and then provide that household with a tax cut worth $100, nothing has changed.

      These suggestions are wrong. The carbon price, even with the tax cut, alters the relative prices of more and less emissions-intensive goods and services. High-emissions goods become more expensive relative to low-emissions goods. Demand for the former falls, while demand for the latter rises. And putting a price on emissions encourages producers to use less emissions-intensive processes to produce goods and services.”
      http://www.garnautreview.org.au/update-2011/garnaut-review-2011/chapter6.html
      I agree with Garnaut’s assessment, in which he is not alone.

      The Carbon Price and ETS will *not* “fill the Government’s coffers”. Simply not so. See:
      http://www.cleanenergyfuture.gov.au/clean-energy-future/securing-a-clean-energy-future/#content013

      Like it or not, there’s plenty of information out there about the how and the why of climate policy matters, carbon pricing and so on.

      The main Carbon Pricing/ETS information site:
      http://www.cleanenergyfuture.gov.au/

      The Garnaut Climate Change Review
      http://www.garnautreview.org.au/

      The Climate Commission
      http://climatecommission.gov.au/

      and the Climate Change Department
      http://www.climatechange.gov.au/

      Plenty there to think about.

    • Splash the cash says:

      10:45pm | 15/09/11

      That photo in China looks a disgusting eye sore

    • Lurch says:

      01:32am | 16/09/11

      Hands up all those people that support wind farms.
      Keep you hands up if you dont mind a wind turbine being built next door to your house.
      Yep, I didnt think so, hypocrites all!

    • Obob says:

      11:23am | 16/09/11

      “The claim is that the temperature has changed from ~288.0 to ~288.8ºK in about 150 years, which, if true, means to me that the temperature has been amazingly stable, and both human health and happiness have definitely improved in this ‘warming’ period,”.
      Nobel Laureate Dr. Ivar Giaever:

    • Obob says:

      12:06pm | 16/09/11

      “It is a remarkable fact that despite the worldwide expenditure of perhaps
      US$50 billion since 1990, and the efforts of tens of thousands of scientists
      worldwide, no human climate signal has yet been detected that is distinct
      from natural variation.”

      Bob Carter, Research Professor of Geology, James Cook University, Townsville

       

      “A major problem has been the co-option of climate science by politics,
      ambition, greed, and what seems to be a hereditary human need for a
      righteous cause.”

      “What better cause than “saving” the planet, especially if one can get
      ample, secure funding at the same time?”

      William Happer, Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics, Princeton
      University.

    • Obob says:

      12:12pm | 16/09/11

      Yes, Let’s Do It - Just For Laughs!

      Various geo-engineering schemes are being discussed for scrubbing CO2 from the air.

      Why not scrub it all out?

      Humans would be perfectly healthy in a world with no atmospheric CO2—except that we would have nothing to eat and a few other minor inconveniences—most plants stop growing if CO2 levels drop much below 150 ppm.

      Professor William Happer is the Cyrus Fogg Brackett Professor of Physics at Princeton University.

      http://www.thegwpf.org/images/stories/gwpf-reports/happer-the_truth_about_greenhouse_gases.pdf

    • George says:

      12:14pm | 16/09/11

      The Truth About Greenhouse Gases From An Objective, Unbiased Climate Scientist

      Let me summarize how the key issues appear to me, a working scientist with a better background than most in the physics of climate.

      CO2 really is a greenhouse gas and, other things being equal, adding CO2 to the atmosphere by burning coal, oil, and natural gas will modestly increase the surface temperature of the earth.

      Other things being equal, doubling the CO2 concentration, from our current 390 ppm to 780 ppm will directly cause about 1ºC warming.

      At the current rate of CO2 increase in the atmosphere —about 2 ppm per year— it would take about 195 years to achieve this doubling.

      The combination of a slightly warmer earth and more CO2 will greatly increase the production of food, wood, fiber, and other products by green plants, so the increased CO2 will be good for the planet, and will easily outweigh any negative effects.

      Supposed calamities like the accelerated rise of sea level, ocean acidification, more extreme climate, tropical diseases near the poles, etc. are greatly exaggerated….

      http://www.thegwpf.org/images/stories/gwpf-reports/happer-the_truth_about_greenhouse_gases.pdf

    • Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

      10:18am | 17/09/11

      @ George.

      Many thanks for your cool assessments of global CO2 emission and global warming.

      It is clear that global warming is a third order global issue. The No 1 global problem is the looming global food crisis which will hit the World in the period 2040 to 2060. The nasty effects of continued population growth and food crisis will hit us like a ton of bricks before global warming makes life difficult for us especially in Australia.

      India in its April census reported 1.2 billion people with 180,000,000 people added in the last TEN years. There is no strong and effective political movement to limit for population.

      The situation in China is precarious as the one child policy is not implemented fully and is breaking down because of fast economic growth. China reported in its April census it has 1.34b people with 73.9 million people added in the last ten years. The one child policy is not applied to minorities in China.

      If China fails to limit its population growth Australia will be in extreme peril when the critical global food crisis breaks out. We shall be at risk of being swamped by a tsunami of millions of boatpeole.

    • James says:

      12:12pm | 19/09/11

      @ George:  I call bullshit on you, you don’t even understand non-linnear response, something a year 12 physics student should know.  Your hack analysis would have seen you fail even elementary physics classes.

      What science did you study?
      Where are you working?

      BS Goh you should be a bit less naive in who you listen to on the science.

    • Obob says:

      12:46pm | 29/09/11

      CO2 Is At, Historically, Dangerously Low Levels

      Why have Co2 concentrations crashed?
      What are the implications of low Co2 concentrations?
      How will farm productivity be effected?
      How will our timber industry be effected by slow growth, due to low Co2 levels?


      Quoting award winning Princeton University physicist Dr. Will Happer:
      “Many people don’t realize that over geological time, we’re really in a CO2 famine now.”


      Atmospheric CO2 Over Time

      Data Sources:
      Current CO2 level (387 ppm at the time the chart was created):
      This NOAA page.

      CO2 by 2100 - IPCC Absolute Worst Case Scenario (790 ppm):
      IPCC 2007 Synthesis Report, Page 67, Table 5.1.

      Historic CO2 levels:
      R.A. Berner, 2001 (GEOCARB III), as published in the American Journal of Science, Vol. 301, February 2001, P.182-204.

      The raw data from the above peer reviewed science was taken from this file downloaded from this NOAA page.
      http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/forcing.html


      Now, look back 460 million years ago and explode the MYTH that we are on the precipice of some mythical “tipping point” of unstoppable and catastrophic global warming. The FACT is that the Ordovician Ice Age climate was very similar to THE CURRENT ICE AGE!

      One reason we never reach this mythical “tipping point” is because every additional molecule of CO2 has exponentially LESS warming effect than the one which preceded it. Even the alarmists acknowledge this. CO2 absorbs energy at specific and relatively narrow wavelengths. Once all the energy at those wavelengths is absorbed, additional CO2 has NO IMPACT! This is best illustrated by three different approximations of the total warming impact of CO2 from 0ppm to 600ppm (roughly double pre-industrial levels and roughly 1.6 times current levels). The previous two links, are from this page. For more on that, see this discussion of Climate Sensitivity.

      As this post demonstrates, it is reasonable to assume that the industrial revolution has increased atmospheric CO2 by about 86ppm. In order to reach the roughly 5,000ppm present during the Ordovician Ice Age, we would have to replicate the entire industrial revolution 54 times over! (5,000-386)/86=54. Obviously, that is not going to happen.

      Many fret about the impact of CO2 on “biodiversity”. Well, 530 million years ago, when CO2 was about 22 times higher than today, the world experienced the single largest explosion in biodiversity this planet has EVER seen! That explosion is known as The Cambrian Explosion.

      http://sbvor.blogspot.com/2000/01/atmospheric-co2-over-time.html

    • http://noblebeast.org/couponcache/members/karenemi says:

      08:10am | 26/07/12

      Good post and straight to the point. I don’t know if this is actually the best place to ask but do you people have any ideea where to employ some professional writers? Thank you smile

 

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