Climate debate a turning point in Liberal Party history

ELBOWGREASE says:

06:08pm | 27/11/09

Hey Mal, time to move on mate. You dont need those septic dinosaurs.

Liberal supporter says:

06:13pm | 27/11/09

Well said, Sir. Good luck. Your opponents have made a very grave error of judgement.

Louis McLennan says:

06:14pm | 27/11/09

What man made climate change? It’s a load of bull. I reckon you know that! So why are you pushing it! Perhaps you belong on the other side of politics? I was happy with your leadership but I quit the party when your party started negotiating about a month ago.

What you’re doing is irresponsible. You are risking this country on dodgy science! Pick up a history book and read about warming that has occurred in the paste.

Daniel says:

06:16pm | 27/11/09

Malcolm I think you better remember what happened to Meg Lees of the Australian Democrats. Look at where she is now?

Jack says:

06:16pm | 27/11/09

The bloke sounds a lot saner than Minchin and co. who seem to be putting power above public.

Anthony says:

06:19pm | 27/11/09

I want your head on a pike.

I hope you enjoyed your wine, cheese and caviar at lunch today at that French restaurant in Sydney.

Monday’s lunch won’t taste so good.

Eddie says:

06:22pm | 27/11/09

Have always thought Australia could do with a party of Liberal Democrats. Turnbull could be its first leader. I would join.

Joel B1 says:

06:22pm | 27/11/09

The Rudd policy of “jumping” without considering where you might land is in no way a substitute for rationality.

And that’s what we rely on the Libs for… rationality, not pop politics.

Lee says:

06:23pm | 27/11/09

If the climate change sceptics somehow prevail and take over the Liberal party, I will (for the first time ever) not be voting Liberal at the next election. This is a serious issue and it needs to be taken seriously. Good luck Mr Turnbull! Most Australian voters support you!

T.Chong says:

06:24pm | 27/11/09

Too bad Mal,yiou seemed a decent enough guy.
The Libs have been sunk by the pig ignorant flat earthers of the J R Nicholls society. The same type of trog that has risen to the surface in the US republican party- both here and the US, the conservatives are saddled with people who are too stupid for their own, (and our) good.
Tuckey, Abbott, J+ B Bishop Minchin Hockey Abetz, Truss Joyce,Robb,Andrews et al all, clowns who deserve contempt for the idiocy on display.
They will lose any double dissolution.
Embarrassing.

geo says:

06:25pm | 27/11/09

So sad, Malcolm, end of Democracy, no opposition anymore. Which Judas will lead the liberal rabble now.  Climate disruption can only be stopped on an individual/local level not by bribing the companies.  Not Politics. Please KR & MT - what are you doing on a personal level to stop this waste of energy!!

New found respect says:

06:26pm | 27/11/09

Hang in there Mal, smash the lunatic hard right and put them back in their festering box of hate and lies. Although you have gained a newfound hatred from many on the hard right, you have gained a newfound respect from many many people for your principled stance on this issue.

Ignore the radio shock jocks, the conspiracy theorists, the newspaper columnists drowning in their own bitterness at Howard’s election loss, the former One Nation supporters, and fight for real Australian’s to whom this issue means a great deal.

Think of all those who where written off at points in history and came back to do great things. You are the one who can pull the Liberal Party into the 21st century.

Eno says:

06:26pm | 27/11/09

May I be among the first to congratulate you on your position on the stance you are taking. Unfortunately I believe the dinosaurs are returning to take over the party as they attempted in Jurassic Park.

Put in the paper work to start a new party with those of good faith and dump the Right Wing Nationalistas.

Fran says:

06:26pm | 27/11/09

I have come to realise that much can be learned about a politician by the way he or she behaves in opposition.  If the Liberal Party forces Malcolm Turnbull out, I think that they will have done a terrible disservice to the nation, as he is obviously a man with much to contribute to public life, and the desire to do so. 

I applaud Mr Turnbull as a brave politician, but the rabble he seeks to lead make me wonder about his sanity.  As written elsewhere today it really is catch-22:  You’d have to be unfit for the position of leader, to want to lead this mob!

Keep your chin up, Malcolm!  I support your stance on moving our nation forward!

Michael says:

06:28pm | 27/11/09

Yes we do expect our leaders to take effective action on climate change. The CPRS is not effective action, the target is too low and there are too many exemptions. You should have voted it down and saved yourself for another day.

Lobster says:

06:28pm | 27/11/09

I admire the way you’re giving them the finger as they eat you.

Pippo says:

06:29pm | 27/11/09

Quality stuff Mal, stick it to the denialists, fight the good fight. Forget climate issues, it’s now become nothing less than a fight for the future of Liberalism in Australia. How a party could allow themselves to hijacked by hard right nutcases like Minchin and that Palin in pants Bernardi is beyond me. It’s also time for those in the party who agree with your views to show some spine.

Anthony says:

06:30pm | 27/11/09

Why is the moderator deleting my comments regarding the New World Order I wonder.

Howz it goin there mod?

pc says:

06:32pm | 27/11/09

Hi Anthony, hi teens

You dont seem happy about Malcolm having lunch. Why shouldnt he have lunch? Dont you know that humans need to eat to live?

I have a funny feeling that someone might have been making a joke. But its a bit more desparate than funny isnt it? I shouldnt be surprised though. There are many in the coalition that would rather lead a broken no hoper of a party than a credible competitive coalition they didnt lead.

We humans have a delicacy called fruit, Anthony, you should try some, you might like it. I think you’d really like lemons.

Well done says:

06:33pm | 27/11/09

A useful post this, and bravely done.

As for the replies, the more outlandishly vile of these may prove to serve a very different purpose come election time. Anyone contemplating a vote for the Liberals will know just what sort of bogans they are voting with.

Joel B1 says:

06:34pm | 27/11/09

I’ve got a bet with my wife.

I get $10 for every “name-calling”  against people who don’t believe in AGW .

So far I’m up $50…

mcdazz says:

06:35pm | 27/11/09

This is a very cunning and devious ploy by Abbott.

Think about this for one minute.

Abbott has always wanted to become the leader of the Liberal Party.  He has tried before and he has failed before because he does not have the support of his own colleagues.

So what does he do?

He exploits the anti-ETS feeling within his own party - an ETS he has supported in the past - and turns it not into a vote for him (which he would probably lose again), but into a vote against the ETS.

The reality is that those in the Liberal Party will not be voting for Tony Abbott - they will be voting against the ETS and by slight of hand, voting Tony Abbott the leader of the Liberals.

Tony Abbott has everyone fooled.

John says:

06:37pm | 27/11/09

You can thank your colleagues for keeping your party in the Opposition wilderness for at least another decade.

You, sir, had a chance to capture the Australian middle ground. Those surrounding you with knives do not.

I commend you for your stance.

Patrick says:

06:39pm | 27/11/09

@ Anthony 6.30 pm.

Obviously another one of the communist conspirators. Watch out, we’re everywhere! We’re gonna jump out from under your bed and force collectivization of farms and nationalization of industry upon you all!!

Sherlock says:

06:39pm | 27/11/09

This isn’t a matter of if you believe in climate change. It’s a matter of Malcolm Turnbull supporting a new tax on every Australian for a scheme that will do absolutely nothing to mitigate any effects of climate change.

I would suggest that most peopple realise that if an agreement between the worlds major economies is reached in Copenhagen then Australia should be part of it. We would also expect the opposition to make sure any necessary legislation passes the Senate.

Nut passing a do nothing scheme that will raise the price of everything for no benefit just out of symbolism is plain insanity. That’s not what we voted you in for.

Craig Mc says:

06:40pm | 27/11/09

Time and again you’ve failed to show good judgement Malcolm.  The ETS is just one more FAIL in a litany of Turnbull FAILs.  Even after the bitch-slaps of this week you STILL think you control the party like your personal fiefdom.  That’s not just denial, it’s madness.

James says:

06:40pm | 27/11/09

Malcolm,
I am a moderate Liberal who is glad that we have (had?) a moderate leadership team in both NSW and Canberra. But your position on anthropogenic global warming and the ETS - especially after the revelations of the CRU emails and data files - is simply romantic populism. It is deeply anti-Enlightenment and deeply anti-reason. That position is not supported by moderate Liberals, whether they are classical liberals or conservatives.

It is a tragedy that your moderate team didn’t examine the data, the analysis and the quality of inference closely enough before committing to such a damaging course. It is a tragedy that it fell to the Right to take what is the principled stand against irrationalism and green quasi-religion. It is a tragedy that your fear of a double dissolution has resulted in the party moving to the Right when reason should be the moderates’ strength.

We can’t blame the Right for this as we can for other Liberal failings. This was a failure of the Moderates’ political and intellectual character. That shames me.

DocBud says:

06:44pm | 27/11/09

Mr Turnbull,

What would have been so wrong with a sunrise clause? The ETS only starts hurting Australian families if other countries agree to similar measures to hurt their citizens?

When the CRU e-mails and files scandal starts hitting home, and more and more people ask why we need an ETS in a world where CO2 emissions clearly do not correlate to temperature, not in a CO2 causes a temperature rise sense anyway, will you jump off this bandwagon and onto another?

“But most people who doubt the science also know that it makes sense to take out insurance until any risk is either averted or proven wrong.”

You insure against likely risks, not improbable ones. The risk to the economy of an ETS is far greater than the likelihood that AGW is proven correct.

There has to be a party for the intelligent to vote for rather than the gullible and the “intellectual elite”, you’ve decided that the Liberal Party will not be that party.

Charles says:

06:44pm | 27/11/09

First time in 12 years I have been given a reason to return to the Liberal party. Good on you, and good luck.

Deliah says:

06:46pm | 27/11/09

It appears Malcolm is getting new support for his guts in standing up to the plotters and for a principle. This drama may be the making of him. There is no question that he has ticker. He deserves respect for that.

Abe Frellman says:

06:46pm | 27/11/09

If you’re that serious about dealing with climate change, nix the CPRS and replace it with a carbon tax.

EvidenceNotBelief says:

06:48pm | 27/11/09

Joel B1, luckily for your wife you don’t understand basic maths or statistics, so I’m sure she’ll be able to dupe you out of paying

Jack from Perth says:

06:48pm | 27/11/09

Malcolm, you are voting for this because it is favorable in news polls. Popularism is Krudd’s trick. Next you’ll be off to Afghanistan for a photo op- oh wait didn’t you do that after Mr Gretch’s email? Maybe you’re in the wrong party…

Voxpop says:

06:48pm | 27/11/09

Support

Respect

Appreciation

I hope you retain the leadership and clear out the dinosaurs

Jason & Alicia says:

06:48pm | 27/11/09

Well done Mal! stick it to those d***heads in your party mate. I think you have more support than you realise,  I know alot of people out here in “real people world” have admiration for the way you have conducted yourself considering the s*** you’ve been put through. If you don’t remain Leader it will be goodbye to the Liberal party. Hang in there!

Brad says:

06:50pm | 27/11/09

Malcolm, you have earned my respect!!!!  To climate change sceptics, e.g Louis McLennan - 21 National Academies of Science world wide disgree with you.  Open your mind to the possibility that you are wrong.  Is it not worth taking out insurance in case global warming IS occurring.  Its a hell of a gamble you are taking with our children’s lives. I pray your right but I’m not willing to bet on it.

TQS says:

06:52pm | 27/11/09

As comments here show: Labor & Green voting Australians will continue to admire you from afar Malcolm, as you do your best to destroy the Liberal Party and everything it stands for with your go-it-alone watermelon tax.

This party will never become a centre-left clone of Labor, you and your Don Chipp fellow travellers will never lead us into the policy and electoral oblivion of the left-liberal Democrats.

Whilst it may serve your ego now to know you have very nearly destroyed the party, remember that you will go down in history as our Mark Latham - The worst leader the Liberals have ever had.

Tim Humphries says:

06:52pm | 27/11/09

You are a traitor both to the Liberal Party and Australia.

I’m enjoying watching your final hours and await with interest who the conservatives put up to bring the party back to its core belief sets.

You were never worth anything to any of the Liberal Party’s core base because they knew you were a phoney. Even if u survive a spill you will still lose the election, because the public know you betrayed us not just with your Republicanism, general left-wing views and management style, but because you only care about becoming Prime Minister and don’t care what you have to do to get it.

Justice is coming, whether in the form of the wrath of the party or of the Australian people. It’s your choice as to which you’re gonna have to take.

Good bye and don’t come back!

Lee says:

06:53pm | 27/11/09

I really hope that Tony Abbott doesn’t lead the Liberals. I can’t stand him!! Why?

Because errrrrr ahhh I ahhh can’t err stand ahhh the errrrrrrrr way err he errrr speaks!! (I hope you get my point…err ahh err)

On the other hand, if he just said “yarr!” every time he hesitated, he would make a wicked pirate.

Coralie says:

06:54pm | 27/11/09

Well I don’t agree with all the CPRS but I do believe In Malcolm Turnbull. Climate change may be a natural part of life but does that mean we should add to the problem. We have the chance to protect our environment and attempt to reduce our Greenhouse Gas Emmissions and with the amendments Malcolm won for us it should not hit us too hard. We must take something to the table. Fine tune it later when we know what we are doing.

Noel says:

06:57pm | 27/11/09

I hope Louis doesn’t have a waterfront property, then again perhaps I do. Ignorance has its own reward

Big L Word. says:

06:58pm | 27/11/09

Hey Malcolm, you seem like a smart enough, presentable enough bloke. You seem like you know a thing or two about power and perception.

So why you hanging out with the Liberal Party? These are not the fellow travellers you want to be laying down with. Leave these feckless wonders too conservative to take on the established status quo.

Good on you for that, and I hope you cut yourself lose without too much more of this pain. Take Al Gore’s approach - more can be achieved without the constraints of fools.

You’re awright, shame about your bedfellows. Move on and leave them too their mire. And spend the rest of your time funding their opponents.

Jimbob says:

07:01pm | 27/11/09

People who don’t “Believe” in AGW?  That comment says it all - it’s not about belief, it’s about facts.  As a scientist whos area of research intersects closely with climate change, I can tell you that the “skeptics” are completely bought and paid for by the coal and oil industries, and have lost any credibility amongst most scientists who are simply trying to do their best to understand the systems of the earth.  In fact, given the recent hacking of IPCC scientist emails, in order to be fair and balanced I think the skeptics should empty their inboxes for us all to see, as well.  It would be very revealing.  As Nick Minchin exposde on 4-Corners the other week, climate “skeptics” are simply people who are attached to a right-wing political ideology, who believe the free market can do no wrong, who regard an honest effort to protect our life-support systems as analogous to communism.  Recent events in the financial system should have alerted everyone to the tendency of the free market to fail, and do what’s worst for ordinary people.

Look at Ian Plimer, hero of the likes of Andrew Bolt, who last week simplistically declared that “CO2 isn’t pollution, it’s plant food”.  The fact is, plant physiologists have spent much of the last 20 years conducting experiments to determine the real effect of increased atmospheric CO2 on plants - they have found both positive and negative effects, depending on the species and the ecosystem.  Yet climate change denialists are happy to jump on the comments of one guy (who’s a geologist, by the way) rather than look at the serious work that’s been done on the issue.  You can hear this just listening to the “scientific evidence” members of the Liberal party have bought to the senate in the last few days.  They mentioned some guy who declared sea level is falling, not rising.  I’ve seen the data from permanent tidal gauges around Australia - I can tell you one thing, fellas, it’s definitely not going down.

Malcolm, you’re doing a great job under difficult circumstances.  Stick to your guns - if this tears the Liberal party apart, they deserve it, and you probably deserve better.  The ETS isn’t perfect, but it’s a necessary starting point.

Andrew says:

07:02pm | 27/11/09

John Howard forced me to stop being a Liberal voter. Malcolm you should be proud of doing the right thing despite the troglodytes scheming against you. Should you make it as leader to the next election, you may well get my vote back.

katea says:

07:03pm | 27/11/09

Thank you Malcolm for remembering when a gentleman’s agreement was as good a a signature on paper.
Whatever the future holds for you, you will be remembered as a man of honour..

Esther says:

07:06pm | 27/11/09

Turnbull Steadfast reports The Australian. Agree, what’s needed now is to stand steadfast against hysteria and bad faith.

Super D says:

07:08pm | 27/11/09

Sorry Malcolm there is absolutley no reason for us to lock in anything until the rest of the world agrees.  By doing so all we do is unilaterally make ourselves poorer.  Maybe you’re too rich to care?  Also perhaps you have been a little busy this week but the leaked emails suggest that the science is not quite so certain as we may have thought.  Another reason to wait.  You’ve pushed it too hard and now your legacy to Australia will be the banning of incandescent lightbulbs.  Frankly thats a little disappointing but its your doing.

pc says:

07:07pm | 27/11/09

Caesar

Cowards die many times before their death
The valiant never taste of death but once
Of all the wonders that I have heard
It seems to me most strange that men should fear
Seeing that death, a necessary end
Will come when it will come

Malcolm, like Caesar, is a gambler of high stakes. All that stuff about the Dice and so forth. Malcolm, unlike the sharks in his party, isnt prepared to gamble with the future of the planet however. Malcolm has put his body on the line for what he believes. Unwittingly he started a craze in the coalition, sharks, conspiracists and vogons were resigning all over the place in an attempt to dress themselves in anothers toga. Most australians believe man made emissions are warming the earth and action is required. John Howard belived this, Tony Abbot even belived this…. until Cassius got in his ear and whispered “It could all be yours Brutus”, “You are an honourable man, therefore you need not worry about dishonour.” Neither Cassius nor Brutus were concerned with the fate of the republic. Tony Abbot and his motley bunch do not care about the fate of the planet. Thus their fate is a planet that does not care about them. (even if it didnt in the first place.)

Steve Smith says:

07:12pm | 27/11/09

The Liberal Party has to be committed to taking responsible action on climate change if we want to stay a relevant political force in Australia.

Here!! Here!!

Half of half of the people in parliment do not represent the majority.

kelly says:

07:16pm | 27/11/09

Hang in there Mal! Your the best!

Anthony Gauci says:

07:17pm | 27/11/09

I want a Prime Minister that realizes that Australia is unique in its position on the globe. The Southern Hemisphere would hardly register on the map compared with the Northern for Pollution. The planet needs carbon dioxide. We should be proud of the fact that we can supply a lot of the world steel grain and rice. We have a very large country and to service the world it takes a lot of energy lets continue and encourage the rest of the world to invest over hear because we aren’t going to indulge in the lunacy of this ets and will refuse to blatantly rip of our countrymen who are already feeling the pinch.

Hands down says:

07:23pm | 27/11/09

I’m with JimBob, Mr Turnbull. I respect your steadfast demeanour in terrible circumstances. I think your best course is to keep at it.

Fill all vacant positions by Monday and go for broke, passing the CPRS. Then a Liberal Party led by you will be something really worth respecting.

Those spineless, faithless, spiteful backstabbers of the far right will have to leave when you win on Monday.  Then they will be stuck in a new Hansonite minor Party of the loony right, looking straight down the barrel of their own total destruction - all by their own hand.

Helena says:

07:27pm | 27/11/09

You have to remain Leader Malcolm, your the only one who can get rid of Rudd and his parotting robots! Good on ya and well done, stick it to them!

Not a liberal voter says:

07:28pm | 27/11/09

It is very inspiring to see a Liberal Party leader actually standing up to the outdated right wing faction in the party. I will never vote Liberal, but I am very impressed with Malcom Turnbull’s stance on this issue. All power to you Mal!

Patrick says:

07:29pm | 27/11/09

Jimbob, don’ forget that Plimer is also the director of three Australian mining companies: Ivanhoe, CBH Resources and Kefi Minerals.

Mr Hyde says:

07:30pm | 27/11/09

Give to ‘em Malcolm. Stare down the extreme right of the party led by the likes of the three As: Abbott, Andrews, and Abetz, the two Bishops etc Force them to go back into their box. If they take over it will set the cause of the Liberal Party back for years or even decades.

David says:

07:37pm | 27/11/09

Mr Turnbull there is a better way.
You don’t have to be a party of “do nothings”.
But you should not take out expensive “insurance” that most climate change advocates say will do nothing, so it is not insurance just an extra cost.

Instead advocate politics that unabashedly expand our economy and improve our wealth.

That includes more coal power (or nuclear if you wish and if you quote Thatcher you should be prepared to show the leadership to use her solution - atomic energy) but coal is cheaper.

Let’s be as rich and well resourced as we can possibly be to face climate change.

Than if it happens we have taken out insurance by not entangling our economy is bureuacratic nightmare of lobbyist rorts and special deals, rubbing out 20 years of economic reform and prosperity.

If climate change is not the catastrophe we have been so relentlessly scared by than we win again. A richer more prosperous country for our kids.

Try the politics of bigger and better, rather than darker and dimmer.

Try the politics of hope and best outcome, not of fear and least worst.

pc says:

07:41pm | 27/11/09

Back again teens, I would like to welcome the visitors who walk amongst us…

Hi Super D, Hi James (not you Jimbob), Hi Tim Humphries.

Welcome to our planet. On this planet it has been agreed , as Jimbob points out, the planet - that is our planet - is warming and this is caused by manmade carbon emissions. The emails to which you refer have little bearing on this fact and if you had read them, or read one of the numerous articles debunking them - (Many posts too on this website as well as Margot Oneil at abc and George Monbiot THE GUARDIAN) You would know this. I know its difficult to get good reception in your spacecraft hovering the earth so I will try to give you some more FACTS about our lovely planet.

If you want to see the effects of the earth warming you should be able to see it from space. Thats how we have monitored the shrinking poles and retreating glaciers. NASA and the World Glacier Monitoring Service. There have been four IPCC reports (1990, 1995, 2001,2007) Each is more certain than the earth is warming and the human driven greenhouse gases cause this warming.

An australian ets by itself cannot solve a global problem. Thats why we are going to have a conference in copenhagen. In order to wrangle an effective agreement (humans you might have noticed are a difficult bunch) we need to bring a credible position to negotiate. Having an ets makes our position and our need for others to reduce their emissions more credible.

The ets, as has been said many times is not a tax. (Youre homeworld Im sure is too advanced for tax)It is the cheapest way to begin to tackle the problem and will encourage new markets, new products and new technologies. (Perhaps on your planet you havent heard of free enterprise.)

Its impact on the australian households I will hand over to one more qualified. George Megalogonis in yesterdays Oz

“But no household will be worse off… Labor will be giving back more than it asks of all sole parents earning up to $160 000, as well as single income couples, and dual income couples earning as much as $120,000, depending on the number of children. All pensioners will be better off. As will self funded retirees earning up to $50 000.”

So visitors welcome to earth, try to spoil the place we have only got one.

Liz Liberal says:

07:40pm | 27/11/09

“We cannot be a party of do-nothings on this issue”  - Not rushing the ETS through is not ‘do-nothing’ Mr Turnbull; it is a prudent move by the opposition to ensure this nation is not sent up the river without a paddle. 

There are still too many question marks and TBA’s in the ETS. 

It is more important to ‘get it right’, than it is to ‘get it right now’. 

Rudd’s government has already earned a horrid reputation for jumping in feet first; look at the illegal immigrant situation that is descending into a nightmare. 

Yes, we must do something to alleviate the burden on this planet and no one is suggesting that the opposition thinks or is acting otherwise but we must proceed with caution and not undue haste simply so Chairman Rudd can bask in some kind of glory at Copenhagen.

Trish W. says:

07:41pm | 27/11/09

By jingoes, all this ETS malarky has taken the spotlight off the continuing arrival of boats chock a block full of illegal queue jumpers. HEY, Kevin Rudd. two more boats loads of your invited guests have arrived in the past twenty four hours. Hullo, Hullo Kevin Rudd, where the bloody hell are you, matey?.

Amazed says:

07:43pm | 27/11/09

I’ve never quite understood how some people can think that the way the human race conduts itself with regard to consumption of energy and resources would/should never have any consquences. Is it so incredible to think that the world is gradually being destroyed and it is the fault of the human race? It seems so self evident that climate change is caused by the excessive consumption of human beings - no one should need a scientist to tell them that, its just obvious. Look in your own neighbourhood and you will see evidence of gross over-consumption of energy and resources. The right wing Liberals are crazy and ignorant, I’m so ashamed of them, they are an embarrasment to our country.

Charles says:

07:44pm | 27/11/09

JimBob, you call yourself a scientist, yet you have no understanding of any science.  CO2 is plant food, and try and tell all those hot-house owners who routinely pump up the level of CO2 in those houses up to 1000ppm to improve their production indices, that it is not so.

Malcolm, you display the same laziness and stupidity of most of the media, and the majority of commetenrs here that ignores the fact that global cooling is taking place now, and has for the past decade.

For all those believers in AGW, I know it is painful to concede, but there is no evidence for global warming, other than in the cherry-picked and massaged models displayed by most of our promienent public science entities.

Why would they support this stupidity?  Well if someone wants to pay you obscene amounts of money to try just to talk about it, and every time you give a speech they want to print your words in a paper, or broadcast it over the airwaves, and everywhere you go men want to shake you by the hand, and women want to have your babies, then it is easy to be corrupted by all that attention.

CSIRO, and various academies of science have started a bloody big gravy train, and they don’t want it to stop, and they will do anything to ensure the average punter keeps putting his hand in his pocket to support the positions they have become accustomed to. 

MT wants you to share this future, if you had any sense you would reject it out of hand..

Jane says:

07:44pm | 27/11/09

Tim Humphries says:06:52pm | 27/11/09

“You are a traitor both to the Liberal Party and Australia.

I’m enjoying watching your final hours and await with interest who the conservatives put up to bring the party back to its core belief sets.

You were never worth anything to any of the Liberal Party’s core base because they knew you were a phoney. Even if u survive a spill you will still lose the election, because the public know you betrayed us not just with your Republicanism, general left-wing views and management style, but because you only care about becoming Prime Minister and don’t care what you have to do to get it.

Justice is coming, whether in the form of the wrath of the party or of the Australian people. It’s your choice as to which you’re gonna have to take.

Good bye and don’t come back! “

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

You are a disgrace Turnbull….You are not and never were a ‘Liberal’.
Core/true Liberals have winced and bitten their tongues and gone along until now. You cannot possibly believe that pushing this through before Copenhagen is justified in any way. Your dogmatism and self absorbtion at the expense of the Party is disgraceful.

Be off with you and good riddance.

Benelong says:

07:47pm | 27/11/09

Bye Bye Malcolm, your demise is the result of your own ego.

Why didn’t you just delay the vote? The leaked emails gave you every excuse to pause for Due Diligence.

There is nothing to be lost in waiting 90 days, but in 3 days you have destroyed your political career.

If you spent some time looking a the very recent public sentiment instead of admiring your own reflection, you would have realised this was the ultimate chance to knock KDudd off his pedestal. Your both too concerned with your own greatness.

Adios! Down with the Egotists, bring on a People’s Representative for this Nation.

Bruce says:

08:01pm | 27/11/09

The “climate has been changing” since the eath began.  So what are all you experts actually talking about.? I would be carefull of “political speak”

JJ says:

08:01pm | 27/11/09

Mr Turnbull,
I am a Labor voter. I never thought I would say this about the Leader of the Liberal Party - you have the guts to stick by what you believe and a commitment to a deal. You have my respect Sir, irrespective of what happens next week.

Jack says:

08:07pm | 27/11/09

If the goverment wants ETS, then everybody should pay for it - whether you are low income earner, pensioner or a business. DO NOT give any compensation to anyone. If there are job losses, so be it.
So now - how many Australians want ETS?

LH says:

08:07pm | 27/11/09

Malcolm
I couldn’t believe what happened on Tuesday Night. Never before have I seen a Leader of the opposition do what ever he could to help the Leader of the Govt. in power. At that moment we lost our Democracy here in Australia.
I think we all know why Rudd want’s this ETS passed quickly, but why do you?  Why couldn’t this ETS bill wait till after Copenhagen? From what I am reading in the overseas papers Copenhagen looks like it’s dead in water, this year anyway, so why the rush? I admire the other Liberals, that I feel have stood up for the Australian people. The ETS is like nothing else we have seen before, and I feel a lot of people do not understand what it is all about, this should of been explained to the people first. I am a Liberal voter and supporter, and if you are still leader I will be voting for the Nationals.

iansand says:

08:11pm | 27/11/09

Hi Malcolm.  I know you.  I dislike you.  But you have always been rational.  Unlike the fruitcakes who are bringing you down.

It sticks in my craw to say it, but go you good thing.

Paulo says:

08:14pm | 27/11/09

Malcolm Turnbull: the voice of reason in a party full of dinosaurs.  Global warming skeptics are either willfully ignorant of the science or deny the science because of vested interests (associations with coal industry, or farmers who believe they will take a hit).
Malcolm, even though I disagree with the level of confidence you place in the free market to solve all of our problems, on this issue you are 100% correct.  If you lose the leadership over it, it’s 10 steps back for the liberal party and they might have a chance of getting back into power around 2016.

Peterde says:

08:18pm | 27/11/09

Stick to it Malcolm
I hope you retain the leadership and clear out the dinosaurs

Jo-Anne Littleford says:

08:23pm | 27/11/09

Well Done Melcolm! I am amazed at your guts and determination! DO NOT GIVE UP PLEASE. For those people of the Liberal Party who don’t believe in man made climate change WHAT??!!.... I am flabbergasted such people hold positions of authority and leadership and are able to make policies on our future and our country… SCARY! I suppose we are not in massive droughts or running out of water, or pollution does not effect anything….? We are unable to produce enough food to feed the world! Crop failures! The poles are melting! It is just one HUGE conspiracy to them…. I can only shake my head and look at my children. What have we become?
The incredibly hot weather in Spring, unseasonal heat waves… I could go on and on and on.. look at what is happening to the rest of the word! Please make them wake up, they(those who oppose Carbon Reduction) sound mad/deluded and DO NOT HAVE OUR CHILDREN S FUTURE IN MIND only corporate wallets, I suppose money will solve all those things that go wrong WAIT…. it really only affect the poorest of the world so that’s o.k but Oh OOPS if we think we have a problem with ILLEGAL BOATS NOW… wait till they have no food, water, land it will make today’s problem look like a walk in the park. How can we trust the Liberal Party with those crazies trying to run this country. Get rid of them Malcolm PLEASE

Jeremy says:

08:26pm | 27/11/09

I think if you put a vote to the Australian people over who should be Leader of the Liberal Party you would win hands down. Stick to your guns mate. Good Luck.

Samuel says:

08:30pm | 27/11/09

Malcolm-can’t you remember what you said on 12 October 2009:  “But the rush to legislate before Copenhagen is completely indefensible, and I have to say genuinely to you, I find it completely baffling. The summit will be in December. The Parliament sits again in February. For the sake of sixty days why would you not want to be better informed?”

So Malcolm, why are you now pushing for the CPRS to be passed before Copenhagen? You have lost my support.

Larry says:

08:43pm | 27/11/09

Oh Malcolm, as soon as you get this spill business out of the way on Tuesday can you get straight on the blower and tell Rudd to do something about all these boats arriving. We’ve just had another 2 in the last 24 hrs! Lets get back to work and hold this useless Government to account.

Carl Palmer says:

08:45pm | 27/11/09

Dear Mr Turnbull, I am doing everything I can to support your party. What you have done is enabled the ALP to embrace you as one of them. They are right.

You may as well follow in the footsteps of Cheryl Kernot. Please leave the Lib’s to their own devices. Let them implode and join the ALP. That’s where you belong.

Mr Turnbull, embracing climate change is NOT the issue Sir. AGW is the debate. Please! That’s where the relevancy is. If you have a repository of data, information, detail or knowledge that enlightens the electorate, Please Share It!!! I am prepared to change my view but as it stands today. I am not with your Sir.

Coralie says:

08:53pm | 27/11/09

What we all have to do is take responsibility for what we are doing today!
Ignore this at our own peril. We have become a lazy society. The amount of rubbish we pump into the sea and air is ridiculous. We must do something to change our behaviour and make things better for the future generations. Mal knows this and he is doing what he can (being in oppossition) even though it is difficult. We have to trust this man and know that he is only working in the best interests of all of us. When in power he will be able to do so much more. Little steps. Thats what it takes.

Godfrey Semini says:

08:55pm | 27/11/09

“A man’s word is as good as his bond” is a long held Australian value.Good on you Mal for defending that value.Those who now seek to bring you down are nothing but a bunch of welchers and those who welch on a deal are not to be trusted.

LCD says:

09:04pm | 27/11/09

Never been a liberal supporter Malcom, and as your constituant I have never prefrenced you first.  Yet this week, possibly in your darkest political hour, you have proven to me that you are the real deal. You respect the silent majority of the public, you are prepared to put your political life on the line and you deserve the respect of the public regarless of where they stand on this matter… You’re a man of substance, good luck to you Malcom, it’s going to be tough but you can stand tall with what you believe in!

ben says:

09:18pm | 27/11/09

pc - So lets impose an ets on people to “TRY” to get them to reduce their power consumption yet in the next breath lets give them the money back so they are no worse off…. ahhh?? So exactly how is this supposed to fix the problem?? Exactly which part of the barrier reef will be saved? Rudd keeps telling us we need this because it will save the world. I am just trying to understand how.

jimbob - are you saying that there has been no political interference in regards to agw? Are you saying that all the evidence that has been put forward has been truthful, verified and peer reviewed? Are you saying the data sets have not been massaged around the edges? Are you saying there are not individuals and companies out there that will make vast sums of money trading carbon?

I too have worked in the science area and to be honest I have never seen such poor science.  For something that may become very important the scientists and politicians of this world are not doing a very good job.

If you really want to cut consumption, limit the amount of power to each house. Costs the house hold nothing. If you want more power, put some solar panels on your roof. Stop building 50 sq mc mansion with 5 split systems running all day on it. Look at population growth. If we want to grow a population we have to find other ways of doing it. Hitting everyone with a tax hammer will be ineffectual.

Merv says:

09:25pm | 27/11/09

I am not a Liberal Party voter but if this guy makes it through I will be!  He is honest!

Kimbo says:

09:32pm | 27/11/09

All well and good Malcom ...but there is no harm in delaying until after Copenhagen.  By then the Climategate email scandal will have provided clarity.  Plowing ahead for the sake of “doing something” is irresponsible.  Doing nothing until more evidence is available is a valid decision.  This is not a simple case of “insurance” just in case.  Insurance when you are the only policy holder is foolish.

Tim says:

09:39pm | 27/11/09

Malcolm: Just delay. If you delay, no one loses. ETS may still pass, after proper consideration by committee. If you rush this through, Labor gets its wish. Liberals get no cred whatsoever.

And if you don’t want to delay, then please stand aside and give the leadership to someone who is willing to listen to supporters.

Old Bert says:

09:43pm | 27/11/09

Fran, @ 6.26pm, ( that Fran?), I agree, Malcom Turnbull is a man of many facets, he has shown his real concern for global climate changes’  imminent circumstances, and watching Julia Gillard’s eloquent praise of him at length in the House today, and watching the 7.30 report tonight,  his courage and veracity on climate change is evident. He believes what he says. Turnbull is the Govt’s best bet.  The ‘others’ remind me of the US Republican GOP born to rule mentality of past ignorance on other matters. Meanwhile, the Deputy Prime Minister ought to brush up on verbal presentation and delivery, take advice on a personal ‘makeover’, as one does these days in the political profile acceptance circus, and soon we will see her visits to the White House, China, India, and other countries become regular, as the PM wrestles with domestic politics, keeping the ALP in office, and other aspirations connected with the United Nations. There’s my crystal ball. By the way Fran, the Catch 22 analogy applied to Joe Hockey, not Malcolm Turnbull, if you’ll allow me a correction. I’m going out to water the tomato’s now.

ShowsOn says:

09:45pm | 27/11/09

In a decade the Liberal Party leaders will look back on the debate of this week and wonder what the hell it was going on about. By then it will have a climate change policy that will be almost identical to Labor, it will need such a thing else it will be unelectable. The sad thing is Turnbull won’t be around then, but at the very least he will be remembered as the leader who was willing to sacrifice his leadership for what is right. The fact it may take the Liberals a decade to figure that out is just sad for them, and very good for Labor.

GBS says:

09:50pm | 27/11/09

Mal there are too many unanswered question and this is the fight you should have taken up. Most people do not understand what Rudd is trying to push through, and what impact it will have to the cost of living. Also, my mother is 81, and she remembers terrible times with the weather out at Gatton in the 1930-1940’s, days so hot you could die! Also remembers no rain for months so nothing new. If we are the cause of changes we need to identify what and also if an ETS will really change things for the better or worse? How will it impact on the struggling society in Australia? Yet no one wants to answer these questions. Your arrogance and attitude has turned many people away from the Liberal party and when we have a pathetic prime minister who is so full of self ego it’s sickening! Time you move on for the good of the party and lets hope they can pull together and give Krudd a fight!

Colin says:

09:52pm | 27/11/09

Malcolm, enough of the bullsh!t motherhood statements and quasi-religious rhetoric. Just answer 2 simple questions:

(1) By exactly how many degrees C (to 1 decimal place) will the global temperature be cooled as a result of the ETS?

(2) EXACTLY how much is it going to cost every household?

Oh, and here’s a third - Can you guarantee that the carbon permit price estimates, the currency exchange rate assumptions, and the leveraged derivates speculations by you and your Goldman Sachs mates, will NOT somehow turn out wrong, run out of control, and blow the economy (and household finances) to smithereens?

..... (deafening silence)

Thought so.

Rod J'That says:

09:53pm | 27/11/09

...and whenever the wind blows, we’ll hear the name - ‘Malcolm’....

actually, no, sorry, I meant - ‘Brendan’....

or maybe - ‘John’....

Peter says:

10:01pm | 27/11/09

Under Malcolm we had no opposition. The government had free reign. Now maybe they will be held to account finally.
Rudd has all but bankrupt the country and now wants to give away 7 plus billion a year and the Ruddites are happy with that?
The Libs are about to claim back their rightful position to the right of centre.
Under Turncoat they have been fence sitting.
Oh yeah. AGW is a hoax people don’t you know? Maybe you’ve had you heads in the sand the past weeks. Hard to accept when your belifs have been blown away isn’t it

Eric says:

10:03pm | 27/11/09

Well spotted indeed, Trish W.

Kruddy’s grandstanding on ETS in order to score himself a nice UN sinecure has obscured his failure on boat people.

This dope wants to take control of Australian industry, but he’s too incompetent to deal with illegal immigration.

What a waste of space is Kruddy.

Chris says:

10:09pm | 27/11/09

How surprising, all you Labor supporters are so impressed at Turnbull support of the ultimate socialist wealth distribution. “Climategate” search for it if your not a Climate change religious fanatic and actually want to know what is going on beyond the mainstream media. The IPCC is a Fraud!

Glenn says:

10:12pm | 27/11/09

I always knew you were a leader Malcolm and someone who appeared trustworthy. You made a deal and you are putting your political career on the line to make sure you keep your promise not only to Kevin Rudd but to Australia. If tragically you are defeated in a leadership spill come Tuesday you really should consider creating your own political party, as your beliefs seem to be so much different from those attempting to usurp you.

Chris says:

10:21pm | 27/11/09

Hey Jimbob, You have obviously never looked past what Main stream media propoganda is pumping out at you. Do a search on Climategate you might be interested that your beloved scientists are frauds and deceiving us all.

Dave says:

10:28pm | 27/11/09

It is one thing to lead a party. But it is another to found one.

There was once a leader who was run out of office by his own side because he wanted to modernise the conservative side of politics in Australia. The party then went on to a massive defeat as it was lead by an unacceptable leader and failed to listen to the will of the public, instead they listen to narrow band of suppports that the party had. It was then up to the dumped leader to found a fresh new party.

That person was Robert Menzies.

Turnbull needs to lead and sometimes leading requires not being the leader.

Eli says:

10:44pm | 27/11/09

Malcolm, a great article and good luck, mate, real respect for your stance this week, perhaps for the first time. Do not let these blokes highjack the Party and the debate.

Nathan says:

10:48pm | 27/11/09

Malcolm,

I am a Labor voter for life, but even though your party will never have my vote, I want you to know that I respect and admire you.

Jan says:

10:53pm | 27/11/09

Malcolm.
I am a Labour voter and I think I will be for the next election.
I have to say that I do admire your honesty,determination, and character you have shown till now.
The principle are very important to me as it show what kind of man one is.
I might not fully support your party policy especially the one Howard was leading.
I feel sorry for you, as i know how frustrating is must be to be honest man surrounded by opportunists.
In moments like this you truly will find out who is a friend and decent person.

So far those who oppose you , prove only more that we can not trust politician.
I must say that those traitors that have come up now are the lowest of the low.
At least Wilson Tuckey was there in the open from day one,for his honesty I take my hat off.
I wish you success if you stay the Leader of the party, if they replace you be proud that you were man of his word at all time.
This is rare in those days , It is good to know that still in those days, there are people with dignity.
Even we are on opposite site of politics, I always would like to have you at my right site in the trenches.
Good luck Malcolm.
Good on you.
Jan. Z

Daryl Saal says:

10:55pm | 27/11/09

Analysing what is said by various groups here it is interesting to note that the hard line right Liberal supporters have a much more ruthless and nastier tone to them. All the others from Laborites, to middle of the road, and on to small l Liberals express themselves in polite and mature ways, but not the Luddites.

Gibbo says:

11:37pm | 27/11/09

The “science” has been proven to be fraudulent. When this whole scam comes undone, and it will once the job losses start, you will have to share the blame with the ALP and the other alarmists. Why would you rush into tying yourself to an opportunist like Rudd?

I understand that we face certain defeat at the next election but so what. Once the public wakes up to the real consequences of wrecking our economy and sending all our kids jobs to India & China they will be very, very angry and you are going to be just as much to blame as Rudd.

Grow up, have a genuine enquiry into the fraudulent nature of the so-called “settled science”, and don’t inflict this religious nonsense on the Australian public.

if you can’t listen to the folks who vote for you, then leave.

Jason S says:

11:43pm | 27/11/09

Firstly, I will admit that I am not a Liberal voter, and that I found Mr Turnbull’s actions during the OzCar scandal deplorable.  However, over the past week, I have seen a new Turnbull who is willing to stake his political career on the conviction that he is doing the right thing on an issue that goes beyond political divides and poses a threat to us all, labor, liberal, green or independent.  this is a rare thing in politics and my respect for Turnbull has skyrocketed. 

Goodluck Malcolm,  I hope you keep the far right, god-fearing extremists out of politics, they are the worst thing that could ever happen to this country.  We don’t want a GOP in this country.  Reclaim the Liberal Party for the moderates and I may even consider voting for them again.

fowler says:

11:49pm | 27/11/09

“although we try to run feedback entirely as it is recieved”  yea, right, providing it is anti-labour,  and contains nutcase liberal comment,  linking labour to a communist conspiracy,  wondeerful place queensland.  but the people belong in a nuthouse

Abe Frellman says:

11:52pm | 27/11/09

Please hang in there. Until Tuesday, at least.

Stephen Hill says:

11:53pm | 27/11/09

Turnbull has no one to blame but himself. A true leader would have sensed his party’s mood and try to manoeuvre a pathway through, but MT as usual did things the only way he knows how, that is to ram his own agenda through no matter the consequences to the party.
As you can see from the comments above MT is now a Labor folklore hero, they can have him because the Liberal Party will be far and away better without him. Good riddance Malcolm.

hawkehunter says:

11:58pm | 27/11/09

I wonder how many of the supportive comments here are actually from Liberal voters?

Malcolm is a dead man walking.

Jannie says:

12:28am | 28/11/09

Thank you Andrew Bolt. You have stirred up the dinosaurs in the Liberal Party & their dimwitted supporters who are now all set on totally destroying the party.

Kevin ‘20 really appreciates your support

stephen says:

01:07am | 28/11/09

pc’s got it bro’. (Nice one mate.)

Jock mcKenzie says:

01:35am | 28/11/09

Only a fool has said in his heart, there is no global warming. 
Go Mal.

Hughbert says:

01:43am | 28/11/09

Mal
What do you and all the other believers in the religion of AGW think about the fact that China will be emmitting more C02 over the next 2 decades than the US has emmitted in the last 100 years? If you think about that and then weigh up Australian contribution of reducing our world total of 1.5% by 5% and you might find it hard to describe Minchen and Abbott as “crazy” - It might be worthwhile peering at a mirror to see a “crazy”!!

Benelong says:

02:19am | 28/11/09

ROFL @ “watching Julia Gillard’s eloquent praise of him at length in the House today” by Old Bert (9.43pm 27/11). Well done Malkie! When Kevie gets home he will give you a biscuit and rub your tum tum!

Louis McLennan says:

03:05am | 28/11/09

For all those blatant ALP/Greens/Similar voters commenting. Malcolm doesn’t have to get the support of socialists on this issue because when election day comes you are going to be voting for those who oppose freedom not the liberals. The reason he should not be seeking your support on this particular issue is because for every 1 of your votes he picks up he has lost 2 or more liberal votes. Malcolm needs to appeal to Liberal voters not ALP voters on this issue. He has not appealed to his party supporters and it’s voters on this issue. This is a massive cost for Australians and it’d safe to say that the Family First candidate or Nationals candidate(if there is a split) is going to look pretty appealing to a would be liberal voter now isn’t it?

That’s how I’m seeing it through my dumb conservative brain.

The climate is changing. It changes every day. I don’t feel this warrants such extreme action based off a very new and what would appear unchallenged theory.

For those who have commented to myself and others that perhaps we should look up one thing or another. Here are a few things for people to drop into google(separated by comma). 31000 us scientists, Sunspots and climate, medieval warm period, greenland farming viking climate, three views on global warming, science global warming perspective.

Pollution is no good, I think everyone wants a clean environment. I’m not too sure carbon is pollution though.
I’m not saying that change is not happening, I’m just trying to show that perhaps man’s effect on the climate is overstated?

I think in a kinda free country like this we should let the kinda free market dictate the environment. If people want to buy green then they can. Organic foods is a good example of this kinda working. However, I can’t tell the difference and I personally being the son of a farmer feel it can be cruel not to drench animals to protect them.

I’d have to confess the free market does need a bit of a nationalist approach for it to prosper when the rest of the world does not have a proper free market. This may help one understand why it’s hard to consider the nationals real conservatives. However, the nationals have formed because of the system we have. This last paragraph really is dream speak with all these socialists and soft “liberals” in politics.

Matty says:

06:08am | 28/11/09

I’m a liberal voter and it’s painfully obvious to me that if Abbott gets the gig the party is screwed. You don’t win elections by appeasing the extreme factions of your own party, you win them with a more moderate stance. Sad but true.

My preference throughout this has been to delay the vote until after Copenhagen but quite frankly that is no longer a viable option for the Liberals - thanks to Joyce, Minchin and co’s ramblings about left wing conspiracy’s and absolute denial of AGW. Before they made those comments the case for delaying the vote seemed strong but now they will just be painted as denialists, dinosaurs, flat earthers etc and be decimated at a DD election. Stupid, stupid move.

I’m not completely convinced by the science, I think it’s a debate that we still need to have and I’m disappointed with the way both sides of the argument have descended to name calling rather than firm rebuttal. But I agree with giving the planet the benefit of the doubt.

I also think that Malcolm has gained a fair bit of public respect this week. He’s shown the courage of his convictions and has taken a stand. It’s sad to think that usually politics brings men like him down as I for one think he’d make an excellent PM.

iansand says:

06:23am | 28/11/09

Gibbo - Which bit of the science is “fraudulent”?  Is it the fact that CO2 is a greenhouse gas?  Is it the fact that burning fossil fuels that have been buried for 100,000,000 years puts more CO2 into the atmosphere?  Is it the bit that has observed temperature rises?  Or is something else “fraudulent”?

Kingston says:

06:46am | 28/11/09

Malcolm you deserve to be PM, you’ve showed over the last few weeks you have waht it takes. I just don’t know how your ever going to get there with the pack of dickheads in your party. If Abbott gets up (which I doubt) it will be goodbye Liberal Party for a long time. We need to get rid of that idiot Rudd ASAP!  and your the only one that can do that. Hang and there and good luck!

Mark says:

07:42am | 28/11/09

Malcolm if you want to lose the base of your party some of us forever
Then it will be on your head
Move out of the way and let the party survive

Dan says:

07:59am | 28/11/09

Laughably, Jack at 8:07 posted what Frontier tried to foist on the parliamentary party - which Mr Turnbull and his front bench rightly rejected!

Stick to your guns, Mr Turnbull, we need climate change action now, and this modified ETS is a good starting point.

As others on The Punch have mentioned yersterday and today, we already had our say on pretty much this ETS at the 2007 elections.  This fear campaign won’t do at all. We can’t run the country by a scream-team swarming the blogosphere with factoids and fear.

We can’t over turn election results just because we don’t like them. We can’t throw away our own party’s integrity, it’s good-faith agreements, it’s due process just because we don’t like the result. It just will not do. That’s not Liberal. It’s dirty. It’s dishonest.

Mr Turnbull, you’ve re-assured a true Liberal.  Sir, please carry on just as you are. Thank you.

thatmosis says:

08:00am | 28/11/09

Its amazing to read the posts and see the “support” now being offered to Malcolm. What a crock, when a Governement comes out and openly supports an Opposition leader then something is wrong. Malcolm hasnt done his homework and has let spin and inuendo sway his decisions. The ETS is not a world saving mechanism but a Tax on everything that we consume with prices on some utilities to rise by a modest 15% in the first year and then what. No checks and balances as with the GST so the Government of the day can increse the ETS with the swipe of a pen to make up any shortfall in its budget. The whole things a con and the gullible have swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Thank to the Senate for seeing through this and putting a stop to it before we were burdened with yet more Tax for no reason. Malcolm shouls step aside before he completely destroys the Liberals.

Wayne Hutchins says:

08:06am | 28/11/09

Don’t get confused Malcolm, those who you read here that are backing your stance are actually labor vote’s in disguise. They are loving this. I hope you do read the responses. I am sick to death of being told I am the reason for the end of the world just because I don’t believe Krudd has the answers! As such I am not prepared too sit back and watch those with a private vested interest in creating a new tax/commodity destroy this country. You can not be allowed to sneak this in under the guise that you are saving the planet because you know it wont. Doesn’t matter to you though as you will be gone and you and your cronies will sit back and become wealthier.The real debate has not been had! All the information has been filtered by the IPCC to their benefit. You have lost not only the support of your party but the support of the greater population and the more of them that discover the real truth behind this new abomination of a tax will mean those that appose it will be those that lead us forward. Do the right thing and fall on your sword. You wanted to join the Labor party once so I’m sure you can start up that conversation again. Ex Supporter…..

david says:

08:17am | 28/11/09

Malcolm Turnbull is what the liberal party needs, pity the right can’t see it.
My very best wishes to him.

Vote [1] Turnbull says:

08:19am | 28/11/09

As a long-term liberal supporter liveing in Queanbeyan I can spot a dirty tricks campaign pretty well, thanks to certain shennanigins from the Lib office here in times past.

So here’s what I do. I just ignore all posts which use block capitals, or words “Lie!” “Dupe!” “whine” and so on.  I ignore all posts, either side, with insults. I ignore all posts that use insulting nicknames (eg Krudd for our duly elected Prime Minister, however much I disagree with him).

The rest I consider on their merits. Mr Turnbull has a difficult job, and this piece of his on The Punch is a brave, courteaous, and constructive. I think he’s right. I hope our Party is led by him for many years to come.

Wayne says:

08:21am | 28/11/09

Malcolm, why the big rush to push this through before Copenhagen? Just so kevin can strut his stuff and wave a piece of paper and try to be the hero of the world.
And you are going along with this. Give it up and go back to counting all your money with your mates from the big end of town. You are a disgrace to the Liberal party and all it stands for.

Aard Knox says:

08:24am | 28/11/09

Stephen Hill, spot on. And here’s something he should have given some thought to:
“We were prepared to act when we were in government and John Howard was Prime Minister.  We started legislating for an emissions trading scheme to put a price on carbon and enable Australia to cut its greenhouse gas emissions.”
And then lost the election.

Peter says:

08:29am | 28/11/09

Good on you Malcolm - well said. Put those religious right and H R Nichols society ideologues back in their place preferably where they belong -expelled from the Liberal party which used to be a bastion of common sense. That common sense made me vote liberal in 75 and 96. I agree with a republic and temporary visas for refugees (but not incarcerated for long spells and no pacific/indonesia solution) and I think Rudd’s stimulus could have been halved. So you’re on the money in many policy areas as far as my vote is concerned and your courageous stance on the ETS increases my admiration for your sense of reality further. Hang in and give those nutters hell (particularly those full of fear religious ones).

Max says:

08:50am | 28/11/09

Far from passage of the ETS being something Rudd can strut on the Copenhagen stage, foreigners are literally laughing at the political naivety of our nation expending so much political blood and treasure on this before the real global players have even come to the table. Far from decreasing Rudd’s leverage at Copenhagen, non-passage of the Australian ETS now would increase his ability to show the real global leaders how important it is that they take action to ensure that mankind’s footprint on the earth is minimised so that the rest of the world can fall into line.

Jane says:

08:52am | 28/11/09

LOL
Look at all the faux ‘new found’ Turnbull support here ruing the so-called ‘damage’ done to the Liberal Party. I’m sure you’re all reeeeeeally genuine and have the best interests of the Liberal Party at heart..NOT.
It’s standard practise sending out the Labor minions to blogs to either shut down debate or manipulate opinion. So transparent. Most were bagging Turnbull just last week under different guises.

Pretty short memories of the days of the ALP in opposition…and it’s rotating door of leaders flirting with oblivion and irrelevance.
Give us a break…the pseudo ‘concern’ or exaggerated glee is not fooling anyone.

This fatally flawed Labor ETS is fundamentally wrong…..and has no resemblance to any positive influence on global emissions or AGW.  Why does it have to be rushed before Copenhagen? - Answer - for Rudd to be a big man on the world stage as the first to jump off the cliff…or the one to push his fellow countrymen off at any rate. Sacrificing us to the the god of AGW. It’s a new expence/tax dressed up as environmentalism. Global Socialism by stealth and guilt. Like most things Labor - a fraud.

Kudos to those who have stood up in the Liberal Party and said so on behalf of a growing number who are realising this. This was not done lightly. It’s not about any ‘denialism’ either, it’s about that this is not the correct way. Pushing it through prematurely before Copenhagen is absolute madness…and shame on you Turnbull for dogmatically ignoring real Party and constituent concern on this. You are doing the Party no favours with your selfish defiance.

Jennie M says:

08:54am | 28/11/09

I have regained a new respect for the Liberal Party that I haven’t had for many years.  Fight like you have never done before Malcolm. God help this country if the right wing faction get more of a grip on it. It was bad enough under your previous leader. Very best of luck for Tuesday. Intelligent Australians who are caring for the future of our planet are backing you 100%.

Ian matthews says:

09:01am | 28/11/09

You and your millionaire fellow travellers, Kevin the Liar, and Al (Tennessee Fats) Gore, can afford to play these games mate.  With the release of the emails from the CRU, climate change has been shown to be nothing but an opportunity for a bunch of shysters to push a new religion that will rake them in billions; kind of like banks. But then, you used to be a banker didn’t you? Take your climate change and put it where the sun don’t shine Mal.

Wayne Hutchins says:

09:01am | 28/11/09

“Jo-Anne Littleford says: 08:23pm | 27/11/09
Well Done Melcolm! I am amazed at your guts and determination! DO NOT GIVE UP PLEASE. For those people of the Liberal Party who don’t believe in man made climate change WHAT??!!...”

Here we go again with dribble!!!! It’s not climate change you goose but the ETS we don’t believe in.. Think about it.  The sky is falling

workinman says:

09:04am | 28/11/09

Many many of us are with you Malcolm on this issue. We want something done, even The Queen has asked Australia and Commonwealth countries to lead on this issue. You are courageous and win or lose Malcolm you have won the hearts of many. Unfortunatly I think your in the wrong party, you are too intelligent to be a Liberal. The rest are behaving like fools ( with the exception of your support base and I commend them as well) Liberals need to remember ..if their support base of sceptics was big enough..they would be in government now. I hope Mr Rudd ..if Malcolms bid fails calls a double dissolution and we get rid of alot of this dead wood. Stay firm mate, we all wish you the best of luck

John Swainston says:

09:12am | 28/11/09

So the old-guard Libs go for implosion!
The role of opposition is to oppose what’s bad about government policy. When opportunities occur, as they sometimes do in the Senate, to significantly influence final legislation, it’s the Opposition role to do what’s best for the Nation. That’s what this gutsy Liberal Leader, without the subtle dithering of political intrigue and meandering of so many ‘pollies’, has done on the greatest lon-term issue of our age - the environment.
Despite the swarm of eager journo’s for another political kill, Malcolm Turnbull has been what so few in elected office seldom are: He has been consistent and straghtforward.
If Malcolm is overturned, - well a plague on the house that let him fail. Australia will be condemned to mediocre government under Labor’s do-everything Kevin for way longer than we can afford, and a potentially great future Prime Minister will be lost. Why should he even bother? It’s certainly not for the money, unlike most snout-led politicians. No, its as he said: “I came here to make a difference.” Sad that others can’t see that difference is so badly needed, even if his methods are as yet unrefined and lack the subtlety of the apparently devious and duplicitous political experts who would unseat him.

RB says:

09:17am | 28/11/09

@T.Chong says:06:24pm | 27/11/09

“pig ignorant flat earthers of the J R Nicholls society”

I’m guessing that would be the HR Nicholls Society you’re referring to.  Pig ignorant indeed.

Vic says:

09:17am | 28/11/09

We respect you Mal, and admire your stance.. you are fighting for our children and we love you for that. Don’t let them get ya down mate most of us realise they are a bunch of wankers. They would cut their own throats to stop us from moving forward.. The leaders of this debacle Minchin Bernadi, Robb, Abbot ,Palin. Tuckey ect are all names Australians will not forget. We admire courage and dislike backstabbers.Stand tall mate you have support but as for the rest..well they never get my vote again

zinc says:

09:17am | 28/11/09

Remember this is really all about RUDD, after all the ETS as it stands is a RUDD concept, and it is RUDD who is rushing it through to impress HIS international cronies,RUDD has not been a clear cut policy maker unless HE has something to gain from it, Australians and their welfare are the least of his concerns it would seem. Remember it is all about RUDD.

Elaine says:

09:22am | 28/11/09

Mr. Turnbull,

Why are some in the Liberal party hell bent on driving the party over a cliff into oblivion over the ETS?  What is wrong with them?  Seems like they accepted that they would be in opposition again after the next election.  That is wrong.  The difference with this time in opposition is, that unlike other elections,  the Liberals left a surplus not a deficit, paid off Labor’s debt and left Australia in good stead and I believe that we had a chance at the next election when people actually thought about the things that Labor have been doing and Rudd himself.  There is a growing anger in the community over Labor’s failed policies, massive irresponsible spending, now billions in debt when we were in surplus and Rudd’s soft border protection policy.

I wish you well on you courageous stance on this issue.  This must be an awful time for you and your family.  At last there is some integrity by a leader in Parliament.  I think that Rudd and Labor’s catch cry is ” There is no such thing as fair play only survival”  Hopefully you will survive the challenge, but learn heaps from this experience.

Rob says:

09:28am | 28/11/09

@Jimbob says:07:01pm | 27/11/09

Sorry Jimbob but as a scientist I will state AGW is NOT even remotely proven by science.  I started down this track in the late 70s when I was alarmed as a primary school student by a “greenie” stand in Rundle Mall (Adelaide).  The prediction was that without action large parts of Australia would be flooded by the year 2000 according to their model.

So I got involved and ultimately went to Adelaide Uni to become a research scientist.  Only problem I have with AGW is that it is such a lie that it cannot be supported.  We now know what happened to those flood levels by the turn of the century.

The current problem with this debate is that if AGW is such a massive problem the media should be informing us and debating that, not the squabblings of a political party not even in power.  But they aren’t. 

Where are the media in the “biggest issue of our lifetime”?

Nowhere to be seen, they prefer teh easy commentary on a Liberal leadership argument.

Cricketor says:

09:38am | 28/11/09

More power to you Mal. You have support. Good luck mate but whatever the outcome the Liberals have lost alot of respect with many many Australians.
If you lose, ditch the buggas and move on, you have won the hearts of many with your bravery.

acker says:

09:48am | 28/11/09

Congratulations Malcolm

Finally in my lifetime I have seen an Australian Politician prepared to stand firm for his convictions in the face of screaming idealogue zealots.
If things don’t work out with the now extreme right Liberals I hope you consider forming another Political Party.

I think there are other people like me out there, people who are not traditional Labor voters, who do not like unions or a nanny state

Who do embrace minimal government interference, flexible working arrangements, the environment and most Liberal party platforms.
But are turned and often feel unwelcome off by the far right born to rule/upper class snobbery group that often seems to drown out the more moderate Liberals.
I dont realy want to vote for Labor next election, but they like you at least are prepared to have an ETS, and as a someone near the Right/Centre Labor is far more attractive to me than a souless Liberal that has shifted so far right I can barely see it.
Malcolm you offered hope and still offer hope, if this rabble combination of the Far Right and Hasbeen politicians clinging onto to their Lib party pre-selections by cutting backdoor treacherous deals like blood sucking leeches

Then God Help The Liberal Party

Lin says:

09:49am | 28/11/09

The ETS is an International scam that will reduce the economies of all prosperous countries to third world levels.  The organisers of course will be lining their pockets.  I will be voting for whoever is prepared to apply some intelligent thinking to this tragic hoax.  The planet has been doing it’s own thing for billions of years.  The notion that the likes of Kevin Rudd and Malcolm Turnbull can somehow change that is an insult to my intelligence.  Who do you think caused the Ice Age.  Certainly wasn’t humans.  With 75% of the earth’s surface covered in water and another 14%  uninhabitable, how much of a problem do you think Australia contributes to the remaining 11% .  Malcolm Turnbull needs to go.  The Australian economy needs to be protected.  He has no intention of doing that.

robert hogan says:

10:03am | 28/11/09

hey mal what temperature will it be when every working family hands over $3000 a year your a let down move on

BMJ says:

10:12am | 28/11/09

Keep fighting Malcolm. Lead the Liberal Party out of the stone age.

Mrs James says:

10:15am | 28/11/09

It does not take a great deal of brain power to become a boxer and this is the man you want to lead us? All I can assume is poor Tony is punch drunk. Sad but definatly not a man to lead Australia..Stay strong Malcolm , you have an inner strenght that is lacking in the Liberal Party

Kelley says:

10:20am | 28/11/09

The amended ETS is the work of Turnbull and the Libs, he didn’t agree with the flawed (as he termed it) ETS proposed by Rudd and Wong. He had the guts to stand up to them and have it changed, he succeeded. So the Libs should have been happy that they got what they wanted. But no now it’s personal, they just don’t want Rudd to be able to go to Copenhagen and be seen as a leader on climate change. It’s all personal for the idiots in the Liberal Party. They forget the ETS that Rudd is taking to Copenhagen is also their work not just Rudds. It should be passed, and Australia should be seen as a leader on climate change. If Copenhagen conference was in 2 years time these idiots would still be opposed just because they don’t want Rudd to go to Copenhagen and be seen as doing something. Abbott and his crazy mates Minchin, Robb and the rest have made a huge mistake. They will destroy any credibility the Libs had. Turnbull threw his job on the line and he survived and within 24 hrs the same people who opposed Turnbull want another go. How rediculas they are. All the best Malcolm on Tuesday. By the way I’m not a Labor voter and I can’t stand Rudd. If Abbott gets up on Tuesday, you can gaurantee Rudd will be PM for a long time to come. You Idiots.

Angry Voter says:

10:52am | 28/11/09

Where do the Robert Hogan clones get this totally dishonest ETS rubbish.

Average cost per household in 2102 looks to be $624 with the new scheme, and even that is fully compensated. It’ll get to about $1100 if you earn over $100,000 but you’ll still get subbed. 

You can find this easy enough on the Minister’s site if you trouble to check your facts.  But you drones don’t, ever. Why?

And yes, it will work. Becos the incentives for greener alternatievs are there, plus if you use inefficient high-CO2 etc stuff you*will* pay more. As you should. Your choice.  Far Right - give ‘em a choice and they’ll fib to your face.

Colin says:

11:01am | 28/11/09

“To my mind, the chief objective of an opposition should be to make voters feel that the opposition, in both personnel and ideas, is as different as possible.”—Robert Menzies

DocBud says:

11:20am | 28/11/09

iansand @ 06:23.

You are right in that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, however, it is a minor greenhouse gas whose effect is dwarfed by that of water vapour and diminishes with increasing concentrations. The only place where CO2 can be made to be a problem is in computer models where speculative positive forcing factors and sensitivities turn a very small effect into the dominant one. Already we are seeing a marked divergence between real world behaviour and the modelled projections.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctRvtxnNqU8&feature=player_embedded#

Yes, humans do add CO2 to the atmosphere. It is far less than nature contributes and there is much debate as to how much is absorbed, how much can be absorbed in the future and how the human fraction affects nature’s fraction.

The actual fraud comes in with your final point. There is general agreement that the planet has warmed in the last century or so as it recovered from the Little Ice Age, but the amount of this warming and its pattern have been deliberately manipulated to put most warming at the end of the 20th Century to try and create a false correlation to rising CO2 concentrations. There have also been deliberate attempts to get rid of previous warm periods, e.g. the Medieval Warm Period and the Roman Warm Period, because these could only have a natural cause and put the lie to the “unprecedented warming” argument.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/11/26/skewed-science.aspx#ixzz0Y6ND2wRX

Irina says:

11:38am | 28/11/09

Me and my family will never vote for you again.
Why have our leaders endorsed the line that we must limit carbon emissions in order to stop global warming? Of course we should limit the way we pollute our environment and waste our resources, but that is an entirely different issue, one which has nothing to do with carbon emissions.
It has never been proven anywhere in the world, that the climate change is caused by human activity.
It is of course understandable that those who would profit from an ETS are supportive.  But why is our government proceeding with an extremely damaging ETS when the Prime Minister himself admits that no agreement is likely at Copenhagen? That is in our five stage model he can’t even get to stage three. 
We must assume that the two politicians actually believe that Australia going alone with a brutal ETS will do the good they claim. They say it will set an example which others will follow. How extraordinarily naive this is. Surely even Mr. Rudd no longer thinks the Chinese government follows his every word. 
Mr. Rudd and Senator Wong are demonstrating the same blind faith as the Bolsheviks did on collectivization, which was imposed at massive cost on the Soviet Union. It ruined the nation’s agriculture and was even responsible for the outbreak of famine and deat of millions. As a former Political Refugee from Soviet Union I know it only too well.
Like collectivization, the ETS is a dangerous and damaging obsession.
The public are not being told the truth about this, and this is reflected at the moment in the polls.
You can make a difference. Vote against it.

Jason says:

11:39am | 28/11/09

Meanwhile, your actual opponent runs off scott free - again!  You idiot, you’re as bad as the AGW alarmists who take all their scientific data from mainstream media!  Just quit and allow your party to provide proper opposition and force public debate on the issue (rather than this back room tripe).

Coralie says:

11:51am | 28/11/09

@Kelley says 10:20am|28/11/09
“The amended ETS is the work of Turnbull and the Libs, he didn’t agree with the flawed (as he termed it) ETS proposed by Rudd and Wong. He had the guts to stand up to them and have it changed, he succeeded.”

Very true and we must remember this. I think the dissenters are saying that some of the changes were made without party discussion. Maybe wrong?

Irrespective of that, the changes made were in the best interests of everyday Australians and when the coalition is in power again these things can be fine tuned.  (Like they will be if Rudd stays in power!) It is a starting point and something to be worked on. I am a Lib voter, have been for 40 years, that may change if Abbott takes over. Hockey supports the ETS so what is the point of changing to Joe?

Stand firm Mal, if you make it you will not only have my vote but maybe a few Labs will swap sides. Integrity is rare in a politician and even more rare when he is putting his job on the line.

John A Neve says:

11:57am | 28/11/09

Politicians espousing a belief in God is not so strange, depending on which God they support. But for our Liberal politicians to be espousing support of Christian ideals is. Putting aside the rights or wrongs of the ETS, the actions of our devout Liberal strongmen is shameful. It’s a good thing some of them have the ability to confess.

why? says:

11:57am | 28/11/09

It speaks volumes that so many Labor voters admire Mr Turnball.
Why shouldnt little ole us just go it alone and lead the big ole world.  As one American put it - who do we think we are? We dont even rate a blip in the scheme of things and no one else has come to any final conclusion but lets just jump in head first and lead away..  As stated here, who cares about jobs and GDP. Labor will always hand you out some more money that your children will pay off - not sure how but really who cares, lets live for now. 
I was “green” before it had a label, I dont waste energy and I do think we should do better.  I do not work for the coal or mining industries and I do think with all my simple scientific facts that we should actually pay attention to more than one side of the story.
Copenhagen “treaty”  all of you should try reading it. 
To be seen to be doing something is all well and good.  Your heritage and your future is at stake - take a step back and comprehend the facts.
Liberal and Labor - can you tell the difference anymore?.  Right and left are so blurred it is shameful.
Never would we support to vote in such an ill conceived SCHEME.

Napoleon says:

12:00pm | 28/11/09

I’m so glad that book based on me Orwell’s( animal farm)was ripped out from the children’s education by my mates in the labor Party,and some in the Liberal Party,we would never have got this climate scam through other wise,we have to keep our snouts in the trough.

GeeJay says:

12:15pm | 28/11/09

Malcolm—-please hang in there!! If the troglodites oust you next week,stay in parliament. After the next election what is left of the party will beg you to lead them

Charles says:

12:36pm | 28/11/09

The theory of AGW is fatally flawed, and has been falsified so many times it is not even funny any more.  Anthropogenic CO2 comprises only 4% of all the CO2 in the atmosphere.  This ratio has remained the same over the last 15 years, which calls into question what, if any, does anthropogenic CO2 play in the increase of CO2 in the atmosphere.

The other aspect that most irritates me about this debate is that we are ‘polluting our planet and we need to clean it up’.  Since we are only talikng about removing marginal amounts of a colourless and odourless gas from the atmosphere, how much cleaner do you think it will look.?  The ETS will do nothing for particulate or aerosol pollution which is the one you are most apparently complaining about.

The ETS is a tax on thin air!

pc says:

12:49pm | 28/11/09

Hi Teens, Hi Ben

So Ben, you say science is flawed and then you tell us you are a scientist. So what youre saying is “Im a scientist telling you not to believe the scientists.” And yes Ben it is commendable you are encouraging people to cut their own contributions to greenhouse gases. If you hadnt noticed many humans are actually trying to do this, but without action from the state also, their contributions however spirited - human even - are not enough. Why should citizens act if the state is not also prepared to act?

This argument is typical of a vogon. Some are upset that they get called names. You notice these are the same people that have no problem slandering scientists as fraudsters and cheats or accusing public servants of participating in a global conspiracy. Mark Kenny on a strand in todays punch tries a little fightback. And well the best I can say is Mark that at least you try. Well, tryhard.

The hard right of the liberal party are made up of vogons, conspiracists and sharks - oh and a brutus. (Though he sounds remarkably like a vogon to me.) So lets start with vogons shall we?

These are the aliens amongst us that began by denying science. Then they said it was a tax.  Then they said it wont do anything for the environment.
“Hah” pc says “So the science is right.” Then they go straight back to denying the science. Except for the hard right of vogonity which like Dr Jay Lehr of the Heartland Institute who tried a different tack. Oh I dont believe in global warming he said, but “some people prefer hotter weather.”

Vogons are one of the most unpleasant races in the galaxy. Not actually evil, but bad tempered, bureacratic, officious and callous They wouldnt even lift a finger to save their own grandchildren from climate change without orders signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public inquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters.

It sounds a lot like Nick Minchin doesnt it? He and Abetz want to send the ets back to a senate inquiry, this is the second time the legislation has been before the house, they even had the same legislation two years ago at the election, they said they would pass the bill if it was amended. They are just going to obstruct because they have no ideas and nothing to say.

And this is the point as Jane is trying so hard to ignore. All the sharks, conspiracists and vogons have said this is about principle, not leadership. If this was about principle for them and not ambition they would have fulfilled the deal they agreed to. They would pass the amended legislation they negotiated. They are so focussed on doing nothing they wont even do what they said they would do let alone do what anyone else tells them to do. I didnt vote for John Howard and Ive not considered doing so for Malcolm Turnbull, but I support the ets and I support the principle that a consensus so clear is best acted on in a bi partisan fashion. (If its possible, if not then thats your problem) Malcolm Turnbull is possibly sacrificing his career for this principle. So no I dont care about the coalition as much as Malcolm Turnbull does, or coalition members, but I know that Malcolm Turnbull cares more about the coalition and australia than the conspiracists, sharks and vogons that want to oust him.

Jan says:

01:03pm | 28/11/09

Malcolm, WHY THE RUSH TO PUSH THIS THROUGH, thats what I don’t understand.  Just when the Australian public is waking up to the implications of this legislation, you want to pull the rug from under them by rushing the ETS through.  Not fair mate, wait a bit and let everyone digest the consequences of the bill.  Or do you want to strut the world stage hand in hand with Rudd??

JAYVEE says:

01:08pm | 28/11/09

When all else fails try This…...
Well Here little old JAYVEE wuz ... Walked into The Melbourne University, found the Inquiries Section & asked :
Could You please direct me to the “Common Sense Department” Got all sorts of weird looks & people vanishing into thin air, but guess what? They don’t have one!!! Can you believe it? They have Not got any ‘common sense’ whatsoever! Not even a tiny token bit!
Tried Monash, Latrobe, and a few others. Same result! Next I tried the Liberal Party and a few other parties .. Same thing. Unless you check the cleaners there of course. They actually know which end of the broom is the handle bit.
Labor was the most helpful however. They had lot’s of Kevvie Rudd’s now patented, eco friendly, extra large, triple strength ‘Sorry’ tissues. - Fully recyclable of course! Actually in several varieties!
There wuz: The rising water level resistant types, The Cooling Mint anti Global warming types, Kevvies Long Distance Flying types, The “Welcome To Hopperland With Your Own Boat” types fully Anti Lock Up proofed, The CCS types, The ETS types, The ‘Fully Spin Enhanced’ types , The ’ Most Of Our Rain Goes Down The Drain - Sorry About That’ types etc. etc. You name it! All of these will shortly be available as soon as Kev & Julia strike a multi billion delivery deal with their union mates of course. This won’t be long! Sorry about the inconvenience! and Sorry But I Have Another Plane To Catch cause Obbie just discovered Australia is still there , courtesy of Tiger Woods.
Oh Bye the bye can I have your cleaners E-mail address please? I might have a totally new broom which sweeps al the Climate Change Fearmongers out of all of your offices. ( Works on Pseudo weather ‘scientists’ as well!) I’ll even toss in a free set of political steak knives in case you run short.

Jim Fletcher says:

01:33pm | 28/11/09

Malcolm you are obviously in the wrong party, however I do believe if you wish to continue in politics, the ALP could do a lot worse than offer you a senior role.
You make the point that the Liberals could get decimated at an election fought on climate change issues - may I suggest that at the next election your utterances will be replayed ad nauseam by the Labour Party with a view to assist with any decimation.
You are as bad as Rudd in condeming anyone with views other than your own, to have no concern for their children or grand children - both of you are beyond contempt.

Michael says:

02:00pm | 28/11/09

Environment policy was always going to be a complicated ask of the Coalition in Opposition, but it was made immeasurably more difficult by Peter Costello wimping out on election night. He should have, some might argue, he was obligated to, take on the leadership of the Liberals as caretaker and baton-passer after the 2007 election. Parties that lose government routinely fall into disarray. The depth of the resulting disarray’s effects is measured by the strength of the person at the top, experienced enough and respected enough to recognize the signs of incoming disturbances and reduce their impact. Kim Beazley had the ticker to take on this role after Howard was first elected, and garnered more votes (though less seats) for Labor than the Coalition at the following election. Costello selfishly standing aside from the tasks of party reconsolidation seeded the Liberals’ instability and rancorous internal divisions as have exploded over the last week. Because he was not big enough to be the Leader of the Opposition, every bit as much as Howard recognised he was never big enough to be Prime Minister of Australia.

Grigory Kuznetsov says:

02:19pm | 28/11/09

How blind and naive you Western people are! Lenin was so right to say almost 100 years ago that the ‘Capitalism and Democracy will dig their own grave’. Don’t you know anything about history, don’t you read books??
Have you heard of George Orwell? I suggest you read up on ‘1984’ and ‘Animal Farm’ real fast, there might not be much time left.

I also suggest you check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VebOTc-7shU

This might make you THINK!!  Why did I run away from the Soviet Block 35 years ago??

formersnag says:

02:25pm | 28/11/09

Its not the climate scepticism, “its the economy stupid”. How many jobs do want to see exported?

What unemployment rate will be good enough for you? 20%, 30%, 40%, will 50% be enough unemployment for you?

The green dividend, new green jobs, economy will be overseas, not 1 single job will be created in Australia. If any Australian scientist or inventor comes up with something new, it will be bought up by a foriegn, muti-national & manufactured os. Big screen TVs have not been made in Australia, but solar panels will be. How stupid do you think we are?

How much of our money will be enough for your mates, the merchant bankers, trading in carbon? Millions, Billions or Trillions? Haven’t they stolen enough money already?

Can you explain the difference between a credit, default swap & a carbon default swap? Derivatives and Futures on crops that have not been grown yet, or trees that have not been grown yet?

YOU SHOULD BE TRIED FOR ECONOMIC TREASON.

Harry Schello says:

02:39pm | 28/11/09

Fraud has been proven in the climate change data. The guru’s concerned have been exposed for twisting the facts to suit their agenda’s.
So enough lets get back to facts & get our selves sorted out!

acker says:

02:42pm | 28/11/09

Huge kick in the guts to entrepreneurial aspirational voters…......

Lib’s may as well put a sign up…Full Up with snobby rich type Anglo Saxon types with old money…please place your name on a waiting list

Your a too good and honest bloke for that souless mob Malcolm

And Joe how many hoola hoops have the likes of Minchin, Abbott and Downer made you and your hardworking Armenian dad jump through ?

A lot bloody less than the wild Frankenstien like far right wing silver spooned Melbourne elitist Senator Julian McGauran, the guy who is pumping his poison into his closest sycophant willing deputy’s Minchin & Bernardi !!

Jesus wept; and as a boy who proudly went to Hummfray St Public Primary School Ballarat (now an art gallery)......I think one of my former fellow students Bob Menzies (ex of Jeparit and then Hummfray St) wept

Minchin and Bernardi thanks for totally isolating many of us who share similiar ideals to you ...EXCEPT THE ETS !!

pc says:

02:49pm | 28/11/09

Hi Jan,

As has been said many times. There is no rush to copenhagen. The conference had been planned as far back as Kyoto. Frankly action on climate change hasnt come fast enough, most austrlians agree Jan, so long as you pretend this isnt the case there is no hope for you and so long as the coalition insist there is no such thing as global warming, or we dont need to do anything about, or like JAYVEE write nonsensical rants about vogon knows what, there is no hope for the coalition.

Jim Fletcher, another that complains of name calling, people call vogons like you names because of your bloodyminded insistence on waging war against reality. Your “war on reality”, like your “war on science”, like your “war on your own party” deserves name calling. It makes as much sense as a schoolie declaring a “War on Teen Horniness.” You havent made a contribution of politics, science, just a contribution of spite from an mtv super sweet sixteen that cant get over the fact that she has ruined her own party, and rather than just get over it, continues to stamp their feet and shout at the family and friends that love them. Grow up Jim, your party needs adults not super sweet sixteens.

Juju says:

02:59pm | 28/11/09

Malcolm, if ‘tens of thousands of Australian jobs have been saved’, as a result of the changes you have secured, you’re saying in effect, that the ETS would have cost these same jobs. If that’s the case, how many other jobs haven’t been saved?

john pasquarelli says:

03:10pm | 28/11/09

take a deep breath all! - ordinary Australians are hardly ever consulted on major issues - they were on the republic and we saw Turnbull’s response to that - multiculturalism - illegals - ethnic crime - refugees - immigration are issues that the mainstream will never have a referendum on - and so it has been with the ETS - deals done between Turnbull and Labor and ‘Joe Blow’ left in the dark - who understands carbon credits - cap and trade and all the other jargon AND the involvement of merchant banks - hundreds of pages of legislation hardly read by those who want to rush all this to law - ‘sceptic’ is fast gaining the impact of ‘racist’ - what a joke but we will know sooner if our once secure world is changed forever

Fantasyland says:

03:21pm | 28/11/09

“Our Once Secure World” Uh huh. Sure. Where’ve ya been since 1949? Disneyland?

gutfull says:

03:25pm | 28/11/09

Charles says: Co2 Hothouses,Greenhouses
You failed to mention that occupational health & safety limits for hothouses on Co2
: At 3000ppm Co2, exposure must be considerably <8hrs as it is detrimental to health.
Industry has it listed as a contaminant to humans above these levels.

lis says:

03:36pm | 28/11/09

Jo-Anne Littleford says:
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. So if people don’t belief in CC that is fine.
What I found very disturbing was Minchin’s thoughts on the issue. That CC does not exist. It is a leftist, socialist plot designed to tear down the industrial world. What the??? This man is a fruitloop. Surely, didn’t the alarm bells go off in the partyroom. This man doesn’t sound like the full quid & he is the power broker. Any wonder the party is in this state.
Turnbull looks to be the only rational, intelligent person left & no doubt that’s why they want him gone.

Not Subtle says:

03:59pm | 28/11/09

‘Gutfull’ wants to talk Co2 concentrations!!!!! BWAHAHA

Ok Gutfull, here’s a little analogy even you may get.-:

Here’s a practical way to understand Mr. Rudd’s Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme.

Imagine 1 kilometre of atmosphere and we want to get rid of the carbon pollution in it created by human activity. Let’s go for a walk along it.

The first 770 metres are Nitrogen.

The next 210 metres are Oxygen.

That’s 980 metres of the 1 kilometre. 20 metres to go.

The next 10 metres are water vapour. 10 metres left.

9 metres are argon. Just 1 more metre.

A few gases make up the first bit of that last metre.

The last 38 centimetres of the kilometre - that’s carbon dioxide. A bit over one foot.

97% of that is produced by Mother Nature. It’s natural.

Out of our journey of one kilometre, there are just 12 millimetres
left. Just over a centimetre - about half an inch.

That’s the amount of carbon dioxide that global human activity puts
into the atmosphere.

And of those 12 millimetres Australia puts in .18 of a millimetre.

Less than the thickness of a hair. Out of a kilometre!

As a hair is to a kilometre - so is Australia’s contribution to what
Mr. Rudd calls Carbon Pollution.

Imagine Brisbane’s new Gateway Bridge, ready to be opened by Mr. Rudd. It’s been polished, painted and scrubbed by an army of workers till its 1 kilometre length is surgically clean. Except that Mr. Rudd says we have a huge problem, the bridge is polluted - there’s a human hair on the roadway. We’d laugh ourselves silly.

This is all about A New World Government as detailed by the UN using environmentalism as the mechanism to do so….creating a world currency/re-distribution of wealth….and what Rudd (and possibly Turnbull) is aspiring to ascend to as reward.

Charles says:

04:09pm | 28/11/09

@gutfull, so what if CO2 is a contaminant above 3000 ppm, at the moment it is at 388 ppm, about 10 times below the theoretically damaging limit, and taking about 1800 years to get to the 3000 ppm point at the rate we are going now.

@Lis, Minchin says that because AGW is treated like a religion by you people.  You take it on faith and don’t question any aspect of it.  I don’t mind if you want to have AGW as a religion, but I and most sane people don’t believe it (AGW) is an article of religious faith, and prefer not to have to subscribe to it.

harry c says:

04:09pm | 28/11/09

Action on climate change yes. An ETS that only hurts the poor and does nothing to combat the problem. Get real Malcolm. Where are the alternative solutions? Don’t forget those at the bottom. My vote is worth just as much as anyone else.

scio says:

04:12pm | 28/11/09

I saw Mirabella on news last night - chanting about “Rudds ETS” and “rudds new tax”

She is an utter hypocrite - she voted during the week with the rest of the Liberal shadow cabinet to support the ETS after 5 weeks negotiation where the government accepted all of the Liberal amendments.

Now she is pretending it never happened - perhaps she denies ETS is still Liberal policy.

T. Abbott says:

04:38pm | 28/11/09

Hi Malcolm,

You and your family are Great Ausytralians But you polical beliefs are more centre left than 50% or so of the party. I suggest you would make a great Labor leader, so leave the Libs, Join the labor party and get rid of rudd and become Australias next PM, that way we all win.

Steven Mark says:

04:46pm | 28/11/09

The Federal government in collusion with a misguided clique of the Liberal party, have persevered with their illogical approach to get the ETS legislation passed before Copenhagen.

Any attempt to vote on this ETS prior to Copenhagen is nothing more than a means to soothe Kevin Rudd’s vanity. Even if one believes Climate Change is man-made, even if one believes we shall make a difference to Climate Change, and even if one believes an ETS is an effective means to combat Climate Change, holding a vote prior to Copenhagen defies logic and common sense. There has been little debate or examination on the ETS legislation’s content,
and scandalously little consultation of the will of the Australian people. A passing of this legislation will mean only one thing. That Kevin Rudd’s ego, and his ability to strut around on the world stage, is far more important than the future well-being of the Australian people.

On another news site, one pro ETS ignoramus accused those who’d prefer to wait till after Copenhagen as “scare-mongerers”, it is all those pro ETS hysterics out there who are the real scare-mongers. Action in haste is often foolish. Good data is what is needed, rather than speculation backed up by shoddy research.

Peter Ede says:

04:52pm | 28/11/09

Turnbull was only against the ETS as far as it would have hurt his bottom line if HIS ammendmants were’nt made.
What is so urgent that the ETS can not wait on a Senate inquiry/Independant review. (Non government) Pity the data has never been open to peer review

There is an alterior motive by both Malcolm and Kevin. Both benefit in a big way from the ETS. Why can Ruddites not see the scam put before them?

Climate change is real. NO ones denying that. What we deny is MAN is responsible and Australia’s 1% of world wide CO2 emission causes SWFA.
If Australia ceased all production for a year it would make no difference to the CO2 in the atmosphere.
We are trivial players on the world stage. Wake sheeple

Luke says:

05:08pm | 28/11/09

This ill thought out ETS is being pushed through without most Australians understanding what the conceqences are going to be for us. We keep being told if we don’t go ahead with it we are going to burn up and drown and our children and grand children will blame us for doing nothing. So your answer is an ETS, Well how about explaining what it’s going to cost each of us and how will it effect our way of living. We are only hearing what “they believe” will happen if we don’t. Rudd is so anxious to get this through that it worries me. He is such an ego maniac, self obsessed, arogant, show pony that I can’t help but think he is more interested in himself with this issue and getting his own way for his own fame. It shouldn’t be rushed through before the rest of the world knows what they are going to do. We’re being told it isn’t being rushed through, it’s been on the agenda for years. Well if we are the first in the world, wouldn’t you say that is rushed? No one else is rushing. I have a feeling it’s about Rudds vanity before whats best for Australia. I don’t feel safe with Rudd in charge of this one. I think that is the problem Abbott and crew have with this deal. I don’t think it’s because they are skeptics at all, I thinks it’s Rudds vanity that has got up their nose’s.

jannie says:

05:27pm | 28/11/09

Oh no!!  The Queen has told the Commonwealth to take the lead on addressing climate change………..that must mean she is part of the global communist conspiracy (thank you Minchin) , has embraced Nazi science (thank you Schultz) and , who knows, may even be a reptilian.

I guess the dinosaurs will want us to become a republic immediately to free ourselves from this menace….....oh , and make sure you wear a tinfoil hat

Michael says:

05:41pm | 28/11/09

Well I am a skeptic and a denier. One of these people Mr. Rudd warned you about as the un doctored data shows the world is not warming and even with all her finger waving Penny Wrong has not been able to answer Senator Fielding’s basic question as to why we need an ETS. I have been convinced of one thing however I will never vote for the Liberal party while Malcolm Turnbull leads it. We need someone there with the interests of the country at heart not their own or Rudd’s. If only someone would explain to the people what this massive tax will do to our economy and for nothing. Even if global warming was real it will do nothing. Other than make us poorer and drive jobs off shore that is.

Leanne says:

05:46pm | 28/11/09

Yes Rudd certianly is anxious to get this through, Rudd Gillard and Wong are showering Turnbull with praise at the moment. Isn’t that in itself a little strange? The PM showering the Opposition Leader with praise? I can not understand why Turnbull is so keen to help feed Rudds vanity. Unbelievable. I hope to God (no pun intended Tony) that Abbott gets up on Tuesday and can stop this going through before Copenhagan.

stace says:

06:04pm | 28/11/09

I believe you’re doing the right thing, Malcolm, but they’re going to roll you nonetheless. It’s like a rerun of what was done to John Brogden that saw the NSW libs wallowing in opposition for years.

Those moderates who are running scared due to the well orchestrated so-called ‘grass roots’ campaign should grow some kohunas. Alot of people feel differently about climate change and progressive policy, me and everyone else I know included.

Why people listen to Alan Jones and his mob, I have no idea. Doesn’t his audience consist of cab drivers and retirees?

Most young people, except for aberrations like Alex Hawke and co, think very differently.
Anyway, why was matching Liberal policy a good idea when Rudd did it in opposition, and it’s suddenly politically naive when the shoes on the other foot?

robert hogan says:

06:05pm | 28/11/09

angry voter i would believe the ministers website you brain dead green

Bob Mellows says:

06:05pm | 28/11/09

Mr Turnbull I honestly like you. But I’m hoping the Liberal party tears itself apart, keep fighting against the people who want to replace you.

gutfull says:

06:07pm | 28/11/09

Not Subtle says
I find it laughable that the New World Order pops up now from the right wingers when it was Howard who advocated along with Bush the new order. Words to that affect were used in his speech at the Chinese Embassy. He also made reference to the New World Economic Order when in the US.
There was also an article in the Melb. Age about the New Order & the track Howard was leading us down.
New World Order is the new alarmist tactics used by the deniers. Especially now, that we are finding out that skeptic scientists are being financed by mining giants. Even Ian Plimer who you lot revere as being credible is the director of 3 mines & in the last 2 years has been paid $306,000 & a promise of combined shares of 4million. ExxonMobil financed the US arm of skeptic scientists & likewise in the UK. It is the deniers who are being suckered by personal interest groups.

Angry Voter says:

06:13pm | 28/11/09

New World Order eh.  So Obama and Wen Jiabao are going to Copenhagen to surrender the US and China to the Monckton fantasy, eh?

Sure they are, Not Subtle, sure they are.  Just like your foolish CO2 analogy - been exploded so many times I just can’t be fagged even bothering to knock it apart again - just go and look up forcing effect, dopey.

We have all this nonsense being endlessly repeated by people who claim to be so concerned that they don’t even bother to check the half-baked bulldust they spew out.

Mr Turnbull, Liberal MPs, please, please help us. Do what you promised. Two years thinking and delay is enough. Pass the ETS now please.

Angry Voter says:

06:20pm | 28/11/09

“Hurts the poor”. Did Harry C check? No. Where do they find this guff? Who is peddling these sloppy fibs? Why?

Fact: Low income families will have their costs *more than compensated*. Full stop.

“The average cost of living for households will be $624 more in 2012-13 than it otherwise would have been, without a CPRS.

To help deal with this increased cost, the CPRS contains a substantial package of financial assistance for low and middle income families.

All low income households will be fully compensated for the overall cost increase they face.
Around 90 per cent of all low income households – or 2.6 million households - will receive assistance equal to around 120 per cent of the overall cost increases they face.

Pensioners, seniors, carers and people with disability will be fully compensated for the overall cost increase they face.”

http://www.climatechange.gov.au/en/minister/wong/2009/media-releases/November/mr20091125.aspx

Enough with the fibs on costs already.

Pedro says:

06:21pm | 28/11/09

You have to love Labors and Turnbulls description of anyone who doesn’t want the ETS rushed through before Copenhagen as “extremist” being the latest buzz word for Labor. Otherwise they’re refered to as denialist’s, skeptics, dinasours etc…..The media seem to play along with this tactic when it isn’t true at all. Because they don’t want it rushed through before Copenhagen doesn’t make them “extremist’s” they just don’t want to feed Rudds ego and throw Australia into the ETS wliderness on it’s own. The majority actually believe in climate change, they don’t believe in a rushed ETS. They need to start counter acting Rudds rediculas claims and standing up and saying they believe in climate change, but not rushing the ETS through.

lis says:

06:22pm | 28/11/09

Are humans somehow exempt from world accepted scientific analogy of cause & effect?

gutfull says:

06:30pm | 28/11/09

Charles says:
Concentrates in a hothouse Charles.
The idea was put forward that Co2 is pumped into hothouses to assist in plant development so it cannot be harmful. That is true. The concentrations also need to be lowered as too much is detrimental to the plants. It is also detrimental to anyone working in those confines for long periods of time.
Water is also necessary for plant & human growth but too much can be toxic.  Just as vitamins for humans & minerals & nutrients are necessary for every living organism but too much can be harmful putting it simply.

jimmy g says:

06:48pm | 28/11/09

“New World Order”....“Global communist conspiracy”  ..... “nazi Science”..........“GLOBAL Babylonian 666:.............are you dinosaurs really that deranged or are you just making a parody of the right wing loonies in the Liberal Party

M Cooke says:

06:50pm | 28/11/09

I don’t want a TAX SCAM, google Lord Monckton 2GB.com , very interesting RUDD THE DICTATOR HAS TO GO , THE MAN IS A BLOODY MANIAC. Politicians take note , there are a lot of people very ANGRY about this DAM SCAM.

Arios says:

07:10pm | 28/11/09

Hang in there Malcolm. You are doing the right thing.

Yes, we have to “give the planet the benefit of the doubt”.

I for one would prefer cleaner skies and reduced pollution at the cost of a few thousand jobs and more expensive energy bills. Wake up people, people who lose their jobs can re-skill and get another job. If they refuse, they are lazy to begin with. People can afford higher energy bills, hey just use less power!!!

I can’t understand any of the ignorant any-climate change people. I’m skeptical of the science too, but “we have to give the planet the benefit of the doubt”. Introducing this tax is a great thing and Australia needs to set an example.

Anyone who isn’t prepare to pay slightly higher energy bills OR loses their job, go and re-skill and help contribute to this country, don’t be a whinger..

Go Malcolm, full throttle ahead and don’t budge on this to these soft-c***s.

spike says:

07:57pm | 28/11/09

Remember what happened to Custer? Same could stubborn resistance against all odds could happen to Turnbull. Unlike Martin Luther who was troubled with what was happening nailed his 95 theses to a door to discussion, seeking answers and the truth. The Senators have nailed 54 ammendments to the ETS on the disbatch box on the Senate table. While the Catholic church didn’t like it, the answers to the theses started the reformation. Answers to CO2 emmissions, global warming and the best way to tackle the problem could result in an alternative to the ETS and start a world wide environmental reformation.

Liberal voter says:

08:44pm | 28/11/09

spike, like others of his sort, is poorly informed. Pity he didn’t read The Australian today. He’d have found Newspoll shows that 63 per cent of Coalition voters in the cities believe the revised ETS bill should be passed.

And they’ve not told us - perhaps these “groundswell” drones didn’t know -  but the Liberal Party’s own internal research shows that between 75 and 80 per cent of swinging voters in marginal seats favour action on climate change.

Mr Turnbull, looks like you and your moderates have widespread support. May your ETS policy and your brave stand be rewarded in the Senate and in the Party Room next week.

Read The Australian. Pass the ETS. Sack the rebels.

Paul Prentice says:

09:07pm | 28/11/09

If someone cannot come on this website and clearly explain how man made climate change,  caused the ice age ,Then it is a scam!!!!
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ntv56ZqeTls

LOL says:

09:20pm | 28/11/09

“Pig ignorant flat earthers ......”
Phew !  Aren’t you guys breathtakingly childish with their name calling. I suspect you don’t know much about Climate Change either but don’t let that spoil a good rant !  I guess this is the way Lefties conduct their debates.  LOL

mike_in_mudgee says:

09:27pm | 28/11/09

Lets hope that if Joe Hockey does betray Turnbull, abandon his principles and and renege on the ETS that the good people of North Sydney will have the opportunity to send him packing ASAP.  He will deserve nothing less.  But I am hopeful that Joe has not been infected by the outbreak of bitterness, bilge and bile being peddled by Turnbull’s old enemies.

Frank says:

09:46pm | 28/11/09

The issue isn’t about denialist’s or skeptics or dinasaurs or whether we should even have an ETS. It’s about why is Rudd in such a desperate hurry to get this through before Copenhagen, and why is it so important to be the first. With such an important issue and our economy and jobs at stake and also such a diverse range of views and uncertainty with in the Australian community, you think it would make sence to hold off until we are sure what the impact is going to be with an ETS (that still hasn’t been fully explained to the public by Rudd or Wong) and to see what the main powers USA etc are going to do. Rudd is throwing us out on a wing to get this through before Copenhagen. Can anyone explain to me why? And please don’t quote Rudd and Wong and say we need to act now, when no one else in the world is sure what to do. Waiting until after Copenhagen will make no difference. The only difference it will make is to Rudds ego, and that concerns me. Thats what this is all about, Rudd has lead you all to believe it’s about skeptics or extremist’s, is the latest I hear. It’s not. He’s putting Australia out on wing for the sake of his own ego. It is so obvious I can’t understand how more people can’t see it. Why the rush Mr Rudd? Wake up Australia.

Michael says:

09:51pm | 28/11/09

Re compensation payments for Rudd’s new tax

Penny Wrong’s site offers this

http://www.climatechange.gov.au/government/initiatives/cprs/who-affected/~/media/publications/cprs/CPRS_ESAS/091124 Final cameos for publication.ashx

Now I am pleased pensioners and low income families are to receive compensation but the devil is in the detail.

Firstly petrol is exempt for the first three years via a tax offset. After three years its hit by the ETS.

Australia is a large country and there is little choice for most people but to use a car and transport cost are a direct input on most goods thus the ETS will have an inflationary effect on most goods and services.

A single person with no kids on $50k per year can expect $390.00 per year compensation where as a couple with no kids with a combined income of $100k can expect $680.00 per year compensation base on a 70/30 income split. I wonder what effect a 50/50 income split has its not listed as it is will people who have kids therefore I suspect it has been deliberately omitted due to reduced compensation. 

There appears to be no indexation on the compensation so as the cost of the ETS increases as it will with less carbon permits people will suffer. Add to this the expected increases in electricity costs alone especially in Victoria were the incompetent government has not built new infrastructure for years and will now be forced to and these cost will be directly passed to consumers as huge power cost increses.

Any industry which uses power will then be forced to reduce costs with some sacking workers or put up prices. These at can will move off shore.

All this pain for a county that produces less than 2% of the worlds CO2 and many of our neighbors who produce large amount of CO2 will do nothing but laugh at Rudd and Penny Wrongs folly while taking jobs from us as industries move off shore.

There is also the issue of the $7 billion dollars per year per the draft UN agreement that our egotistical prime minister will sign away to score points for his own ambitions. I find it strange Rudd is borrowing money from China to pay for pink bats etc and the UN will most lightly dole out some of that money to china to build new power stations.

Could not that money be better spent here on roads and hospitals or if you must CO2 reduction. If our political masters had any balls we would be looking at nuclear power but instead we will waste billions on inefficient wind power.

Turnbull, Rudd and Wong will go down in the history of this country for this stupidity.

Kevin says:

09:52pm | 28/11/09

Nice on Malcolm.  it’s easy for you to sacrifice a few thousand, you can afford it.  Workers can’t afford it.  It wouldn’t have hurt to reach a decision after the Copenhagen summit.  Why are you really rushing this.  As RUDD offered you a job somewhere?  If we adopt a 100% reduction in our pollution, that is to say going back to horse and card with no gas or electricity whatsoever, we would save on a global pollutuion basis, 1.5% which amounts to basically nothing compared to the likes of China, India and the U.S.  So what’s the point of it all other than puting Australia’s workers behind the 8 ball yet again.  We can’t compete on wages with China and India and now you want to ensure our manufacturing costs can’t complete either.  Your not much of a business man Malcolm

DocBud says:

09:59pm | 28/11/09

Lis @ 6:22pm. Of course humans are not exempt. Lis. You’d struggle to get through a single day if they were. However, there is the matter of the magnitude of the effect and its consequences (i.e. benign or malignant). Without doubt, emitting CO2 must have an effect, but is the effect significant and would it be malignant if it were significant given that the planet has always been healthiest and most abundant during hot, inter-glacial periods?

The lack of correlation between global temperatures and human CO2 emissions suggests the effect is not significant and readily disguised by other factors. It is this lack of correlation that the University of East Anglia’s scientists were trying to hide by manipulating the data to make it look like there was a correlation when none existed.

If the whole world joins in the madness of an ETS, Lis, there will most certainly be a cause and effect. The slowing down of the global economy will hurt the world’s poorest the most. This is far more certain than any of the projections of future climate from computer models.

Ray says:

10:27pm | 28/11/09

No debate is the message you are sending us Malcolm.  I wonder how many people have read Agenda 21 in its entirety.  I don’t like what I read and I oppose you vehemently for the irresponsible, destructive path for Australia that you and Kevin Rudd are setting us on.  Perhaps “you will win” on Tuesday, but it is a hollow party that has no members.  With the Government and Opposition in bed together it is far too easy to think Democracy is dead in this country.  You should be ashamed of yourself. This is two members you WILL lose if you continue with this dictatorial approach. Membership is noticing that your team of supporters start with Julia Gillard and greg Combet. What are you doing?

Lucie says:

10:32pm | 28/11/09

Everyone can prattle on until they’re blue in the face about the ETS, but all it shows is no one seems to agree and no one totally understands it. So wouldn’t it be in Australia’s best interest to have an enquiry into it and to have it better explained and debated amongst the Australian Community. Rudd might be ready to rush this through before Copenhagen, but I don’t think Australians are ready. It’s as if he tells us we should just go along with it now, and if we don’t we’re dinasaurs or what ever label he wants to use.Waiting until Feb is not going to make any difference, but obviously there is alot of difference in the community. Or don’t we matter Mr Rudd? Your arogance and rush is out of order. We should wait until after Copenhagen. No, I’m not a skeptic or a denialist either.

Borys Pawliw says:

11:19pm | 28/11/09

A most interesting coincidence that the biggest supporters of taxes on carbon emissions have close ties to banks which will be huge players in the carbon offset industry.

A new ice age was the rage in the 1970s.
Then it was global warming - the exact opposite.

Now it’s climate change, which can be either global warming or global cooling. Either way, Goldman Sachs, Macquarie Bank, and the like will win with regular 8 figure bonuses for simply buying and selling - in effect - nothing, whilst the real people with real jobs that create real see prices go up for everything just fund someone’s Aston Martin, Learjet and 3rd Hamptons mansion…

Count me out.

What's fair says:

12:56am | 29/11/09

Good Evening Punchers, 199 comments, although remarkably very few are sensible and civil.  I guess Malcolm Turnbull has become fairly used to this sort of behaviour though, good on you for facing it head on.

I must confess though Malcolm, whilst I appreciate the had work and effort you and Ian MacFarlane have put into the ETS amendments to protect Australians (as much as possible) I disagree that the legislation should be passed now:

1. It has already been said but it is my opinion too that we should wait to see what happens at Copenhagen before passing the ETS. (easy point out of the way)

2. I believe that genuine scientific debate has been stifled and nowhere near comprehensive enough to impose an ETS on Australia.  Furthermore, I believe that the general public has not been well enough informed of the situation by politicians or scientists to date and so most people don’t know what they are getting and what effect it will have on world temperatures.  The potential cost of the ETS was only reported a few days ago yet no scientist or politician has stated how much this cost will impede global temperatures/climate change.

3. Apart from the fact that the “sceptics” may be right, I have still not heard any explanation from climate scientists why global temperatures have cooled for the last decade.  Many of you would be right to point out that you cannot use 10 years of data to completely rule out a climate change theory based on 1000s of years, but if the models are to be believed, we should have all been burned by now.

4. Last but not least is the East Anglia University data leak.  The leak itself should have been enough to stop any passing of an ETS pending a full investigation into the validity of the data and emails (so far though, they appear all genuine if the reaction of Phil Jones et al is anything to go by).  I have used and still use modelling in my work as an engineer.  It is normal to filter data before presenting/graphing (i.e. using a “trick”) to smooth out the data to give a nice curve.  Filtering however should not be used to alter the shape/trend/results (i.e. “hide the decline”). 

Malcolm, I consider you a rational and critical thinking from what I have seen of you thus far in public life.  I am incredibly confused as to why you continue to support the AGW theory when so many questions remain unanswered.  Has Mr Rudd offered you a job (like he did to Peter Costello?).  Are you perhaps going with what you believe to be the majority of the electorate in order to keep most Australians on side to give you the best possible chance at the next election??  That position kind of makes sense to me, but in my eyes the cost seems too high.

Thank you punchers and Malcolm for sticking with me during this long post.

[takes cover from impeding firestorm]

stephen says:

05:48am | 29/11/09

No firestorm. You talk too much. (Too much opinion, not enough ideas).

Wake up says:

05:56am | 29/11/09

In the first place, you’ve kept us waiting far too long already. Two years too long. There’s been endless sound debate about costs, methods, timescale and its easily found.

Secondly,  “if the models are to be believed, we should have all been burned by now” is the most ludicrous distortion. Anyone who has bothered to check knows that we are talking about effects between 2 and 7 degrees by the end of the Century - that’s 2200.

Finally, the email hack. Meh. Selectively released conversations on data which we cannot see. It’s a mischievous attempt to discredit 3 decades international work and it won’t wash. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is hardly some sort of lefty plot.

Mr Turnbull has made a sound and brave decision and he’ll get my vote.

Manson says:

07:16am | 29/11/09

This is all good an all in theory. But the whole scheme is a sham. Why should companies is Tasmania pay this so called carbon tax if all our genration is done from Hydro?

Two of our biggest power consumers (and profit to the state) have said they will practically leave if they get hit with this tax and go to china.

Now I can only imagine what the mainland situation is but I bet it is the same.

Now let us look forward here. Apart from a lot of people loosing their jobs. If These so called industries move to china we may get a 1% carbon reduction overall in Australia and make ourselves feel better we did something, however in countries like china who do not have strict laws like we do in regards to pollution will result in a say 5% increase to the worlds pollution because they do not have to be as clean there.

So what we are cleaning up and home we are worstening globally as all we are doing is shiftting the problem. 

On top of that, like I said job losses and economic losses to this country will happen.

I have no problem about doing something but the way the ETS comes acros is very crude. To the general public it looks more like tripple dipping on Taxes, because you will charge the power generater, then the power distributer and finally the consumer.

In order to convince the smarter people in the community the ETS needs to be explained and given some real meaning and planning behind it instead of rushing in with this crude tax.

In reality all I think this tax is for is to piss people off so that a few years later the gov will say well if we want to be environmentally friendly and drop this tax Nuclear is the only way to go. Just another angle so they can accept Nuclear power as a renewable form of energy, as it does not produce carbon emissions.

Personally we all know solar is not efficient enough atm to justify building big solar power stations. Did you know it takes more energy to make the solar panel then the actual output you will get out of it in it’s lifetime?

Nuclear these days is way safer and reliable than back a couple decades ago and is the only way to go along with hydro atm until solar is better.

In all most people want to do something about climate change but adding more taxes is not the answer. I think iit is time to to a tax reform on the whole system to simplfy it all and stop the tripple dipping here and there and then people will be more willing to accept this, assuming it is not alot of talk and no thought.

Wake up says:

07:23am | 29/11/09

Michael at 9:51pm: His case is not improved by name-calling. But then, he’s just one more in the roster of selective or careless mis-presenters.

He pretends there’s something deliberately missing from the Climate Change Dept paper,  “How this affects your Household”.  In fact he’s quite wrong.

The data he wants for Dual income couples - 50:50 income splits are on pages 13 to 18. No sleight of hand there - well compensated up to any reasonable income. And here is a working link
http://www.climatechange.gov.au/en/government/initiatives/cprs/who-affected/households.aspx

As for his plaint on fuel costs, like the ETS itself, the whole point is to encourage more efficient use of CO2 related resources,  fairly, by giving plenty of time for gradually rising costs while we find better ways to use stuff. Use less - pay less. Use better, pay less. Use more, pay more. Your choice.

Gerry says:

08:43am | 29/11/09

I am tired of Rudd, Wong and Turnbull calling me or anyone else who thinks the ETS should not be rushed through before Copenhagen, Denialist’s, skeptics, dinasaurs extremist’s. I believe in climate change! and so do most other Australians. There is too much uncertainty around the ETS, That is quite obvious. Every time I hear them use this argument I feel like jumping through the TV screen and shaking them. Stop making false accusations about people who think the ETS needs more explaining and consideration before Copenhagen. The majority of us believe in climate change and believe we need to act. But act responsibly in step with the rest of the world. This argument is being lost by the Rudd rehteric of labeling everyone this way, it’s about rushing the ETS, not that we don’t believe in climate change! Australian’s want and expect more clarity about the ETS, as does the rest of the world obviously. Why Malcom you got into bed with Rudd on this one is beyond me. You should have said we need to wait until after Copenhagen.

Mike says:

08:50am | 29/11/09

So the Liberal Party shows it true colours in time of testing….betrayal to a leader they just re-elected in a day before…disunity, division, bitterness and knives being drawn…no one is to be trusted. Yeah…these are the people I want running the country.

These tired, old worn out neanderthal conservatives, have no place governing in the 21 Century….they live in the past, not just on climate change, but other aspects relevant to a Nation needing to move forward in an ever changing, modern world.

Malcolm Turnbull is / was their last hope, before losing themselves into a political wilderness of irrelevance. A progressive, he has the ability to win the middle ground voters, who are tired of archaic policies and maintaining the conservative status quo.

Spending money & lives “fighting infidels” on foreign shores (Howard & Bush’s legacy) is typical of the extent of the Liberals ability for ‘action’. The Liberals need to move forward with positive and concerned reform and if they aren’t willing to…then I will not be voting for them again. Good luck Mr Turnbull.

bruce says:

08:59am | 29/11/09

why can’t all of the self proclaimed “intelligent” people learn how to spell?

Marcus says:

09:12am | 29/11/09

Have just watched Malcolm on Today Show interviewed by Laurie Oakes. Must say VERY IMPRESSIVE. He seems to be performing better the more pressure he is under. He answered every question with clarity and sence, he answered the questions I had going around in my head. Joe Hockey maybe a nice cuddly bloke, but he is no where in the same league as Malcolm. He is not leadership material and deiffinately not PM material. Malcolm must stay leader otherwise it will be goodbye Libs for a long time.

scio says:

09:24am | 29/11/09

What’s fair says:  12:56am | 29/11/09 and to all the others who complain they dont know what ETS involves - the Howard government took a very similar ETS to the 2007 election and it is still official Liberal policy. The Rudd government has tabled green papers & white papers sfor over 12 months. The legistlatiion was tabled early this year & has been negotiated, brilliantly, by the Liberal for over 5 weeks.

If you are not interested in reading any of this what do you want Rudd to do - send someone to your home to read it to you? Or spend several hundred million dollars on TV ads like Workchoices or GST?

Is you laziness Rudds fault?

Cade Foster says:

09:53am | 29/11/09

Dear Mr Turnbull, Mr Rudd, UN, IPCC, Al Gore ...

CLIMATE-GATE HAS ARRIVED !
THE JIG IS UP !
TIME TO PAY THE PIPER !

Science is about truth and transparency. Did you really think you could hide the real data showing the fallacy of your AGW point of view ?

It is sad that the government’s climate policy? is based on fraudulent computer models; these models based on fraudulent data and fraudulent source codes.

Then again “climate alarmist” politicians may have been, knowingly, a part of this fraud !

Allan Lehepuu says:

09:59am | 29/11/09

In the Proposed Changes in the CPRS, page 8 third dot point, there is an amendment to “provide credits for regrowth on deforested land (legally cleared between 1990 and 31 Dec 2008).”
Why a tree that started growing on land cleared on the 31st Dec 1989 does not attracted a carbon credit while one on land cleared 1st Jan 1990 defies logic.
I image there are other examples within the CPRS ACT of such muddled thinking.
We are rushing a complex bill through Parliament and will in all likely hood be amended many many times in the coming years particularly when we know what other countries will do with their carbon tax legislation.
For Legislation that will not take effect until 2012, why the rush?

Alan says:

10:31am | 29/11/09

Malcolm, you are on the wrong side of history. The leaked emails from the CRU show once and for all that man made global warming is a crock. But more than that, even if you believe man made global warming is true there is absolutely nothing we can do about it except adapt or go back to an 18th century standard of living and accept massive human population decreases. This is a case of the cure is worse than the disease when in fact there is NO disease.

Jack says:

10:42am | 29/11/09

The Turnbull and Lib backlash is missing a major point. While Labour is castigating them, IF a labour palimentarian dared to oppose Labours doctrine THEY WOULD BE THROWN OUTof the party. Lib are at least democratic. Labour IS NOT democratic, lead by a control freak. Meanwhile Labour parlimetarians are cowering in their rabbit holes, while the wolf Leader howls. I believe climate change is a reality but I doubt we can do much to stop it. Maybe slow it down, but never stop the gigantic momentum of this normal planetry cycle

currently a donkey voter says:

10:45am | 29/11/09

Malcolm, if you join the ALP and become leader of it, I shall start voting again.

Kasey says:

10:55am | 29/11/09

Nothing the Liberal Party could do or say would make me vote Labor more than putting Tony Abbott in charge. He is a religious fanatic who has no respect for other peoples wishes if they go against the church or his beliefs. Would set women back 100 years.

Bob says:

11:02am | 29/11/09

OK, lets have the ETS , but let us cosider where our tax will go to pay for it. Primarily the Coal Industry. WHY, WHY do we have to pay for this highly polluting industry and what is Clean Coal anyway? 5 pct cleaner (95pct just as polluting) 10pct? This assumes the money spent and the time lost waiting for it will have been worth while. Google “Clean Coal” and see what is said. The Govt needs to tax us to pay for the Coal Industry so they can employ and everybody pay tax again, but more importantly so that Rudd can line himself up for a major UN post when he leaves politics. WHAT a SCAM

Brett says:

11:06am | 29/11/09

I find it a little hard to believe Malcolm’s environmental concerns when I read the company he was chairman had a clear-felling operation in the Solomon Islands. No doubt he made part of his millions from destroying natural forests there.  So now he asks us to foot the bill by paying $1,100.00 to those underdeveloped countries they he pillaged from. I got news for you, I didn’t get rich from doing that!
I urge anyone to research two topics:
1: Malcolm Turnbull
2: The Copenhagen Treaty
An informed voter is a better voter.

Juju says:

11:10am | 29/11/09

Peter Costello is very quiet on this - he’s obviously been paid enough by Rudd to keep his mouth shut.

Andrew says:

11:31am | 29/11/09

I’m not a climate change sceptic, I’m an ETS sceptic.
This ETS will do nothing for the environment.

Malcom stop sounding like a dictator and start listening.
The people don’t want it. Businesses don’t want it.

David says:

11:45am | 29/11/09

The issue is no longer about global warming, it is about a leader who has failed to put negotiate a position acceptable to a substantial majority of Liberal parliamentarians and party members.  A good leader would have compromised and negotiated an acceptable position. Turnbull, with his arrogance and crash or crash through manner will never be able to appeal to the majority of voters and must go.

Satish C says:

12:09pm | 29/11/09

Good on you Mr Turnbull. Though I am not a great fan of yours, I liked the way you are taking a strong stance for a valid reason. Common sense tells us that we should take care of our own planet. Whatever little we intend to do today we save future generations after 1000s of years but it is worth it.

I sincerely wish you all the best and hope you will remain leader of Liberals who otherwise will start moving in reverse forever!!!!!!!!!

David says:

12:13pm | 29/11/09

The thing that is missing from the climate change reporting is facts.  People are supporting slogans from both sides.  I am fed up of the propaganda it is time this was debated with facts.  There is more evidence that we are heading towards an ice age than further warming.  The claims of global warming that were made 10 years ago have not eventuated.  Mr Rudd wants to sign a treaty in Copenhagen where Australian Taxes will be paid to China, and the United Nations will make the decisions not Australians.  Yet no one has discussed these facts, they keep arguing slogans.  I support a sustainable environment and want to reduce pollution, but climate change is exagerrated nonsense with little evidence to hold up the claims.  All the evidence so far put up, is easily challanged that is why Scientists call people sceptics because they are running scared of the arguments.  Enough is enough, the climate change hysteria has reached its peak and rationalism is prevailing.

Martin says:

12:30pm | 29/11/09

Isn’t Malcolm in trouble because the party belives the count was against the deal with the government and he cannot prove that it was not the case? Even if and it is a big if, the ETS will help to save the earth why are we not discussing the Copenhagen agreement especially as it is the one that is much more important . I smell a rat when the major parties agree with each other.

Glen says:

12:39pm | 29/11/09

The ETS a disaster for Australia.  The Australian people know it is even if they cannot explain it.  It is not that the climate is not changing it is that the ETS is bad legislation.  The Liberal party has been too close to the ALP which has bought this upheaval upon it.  It needs to get back in touch wth te people of Autralia.  The ETS needs to be knocked off and a reasonable, effecient and effective approach taken after Copenhagen.  I am sick and tired of hearing that anyone that desn’t support the ETS is a denier, the simple fact is that it is bad legislation, there are infinite numbers of alternative approaches.  We don’t have to have the ETS and condem Australia to obscuriy.

Mark says:

12:41pm | 29/11/09

Dear Mr Turnbull,
I just finished reading the book ” Greenhouse Solutions with sustainable energy”. written by Mark Diesendorf. I am now undertsading the issue with climate change. I want to let you know that I really admire your attitude. The liberals will perhaps find a way to push you out this Tuesady (with Joe Hockey changing his stand) , but you should know that a lot of (informed) peoples will keep respecting you .

Allan says:

01:19pm | 29/11/09

Malcolm, why do we need a new tax as a means of insurance against climate change? Why not get off the climate change horse and start talking about plooution levels and keeping our planet clean and I am sure you will get a lot more support. No-one can argue that we should keep our planet clean. Look beyond climate change and make it a smaller issue and only part of an overall “clean planet” policy and scrap this whole stupid ETS thing and replace it with good old fashioned legislation to reduce emissions and incent industries and individuals to support a “clean planet” initiative. Climate change should only be a piece of the overall puzzle. Marginalise it and garner support for a larger “clean planet” policy and put forward good policies backed up by legislation to cut polution levels and you will have my vote!

V says:

01:31pm | 29/11/09

I can’t understand the urgency of a pressing need to vote on the ETS with such stifled debate, polls show Australians don’t understand it, politicians say they haven’t even read it.
The only reason there is ‘urgency’ is so Kevin747 (who incidentally has done more travelling, emitted more CO2 emissions than any PM in Australias history) can strut the world stage in Copenhagen, shake a few hands, pose for photos and talk about detailed programattic specificities.

Bearish says:

01:45pm | 29/11/09

Is the coalition really silly enough to dismiss the CPRS purely on the basis of Anthropogenic Global Warming scepticism?
Is not the Oil supply/demand question much more pertinent to rearranging our energy economy?
The Northern Hemisphere is possibly facing huge heating demands in the event of a potential cooling cycle.
Satisfying India/China energy demands, as well as a recovering global economy oil demand depends on a significant reduction in oil consumption around the world.
So why wouldn’t the development of alternate renewable technologies not appeal to anyone as a means to counter oil failure and to stimulate economic growth? What better way to achieve this than the ‘just in case AGW is happening’  arguments for a reduction in fossil fuel consumption?
All government needed was the means to stimulate political and social support, I think they found that in the perceived need to reduce CO2 emissions and then the Carbon Trading Scheme legislation, and Copenhagen is the venue for extending the action globally.

Mark Porter says:

01:47pm | 29/11/09

Hey Malcolm

Good on you for taking a stand. On many issues taking such a stand would be pure political folly, but not this issue. Someone had to have the guts to stand up to this idiocy which is climate change denialism. Even if you are outed because of this I hope you remain active in Australian Politics.
People follow courage. Thank you.

John A Neve says:

01:51pm | 29/11/09

Allan 2 1319hrs.

I am surprised you asked the question “why do we need a new tax as a means of insurance against climate change”?
The simple answer is the hip pocket is the only thing many people understand. There are laws against spitting on the footpath, people still do it.  Laws against throwing litter out of car windows, it’s still done.

As to pollution,it’s all part of climate change, the impact on our seas, water ways, air, land, it’s all part of the same issue. We would not need laws if every one did the right thing.

Any one who denies man’s impact adversly on our planet has rocks in their head. The real argument here is who pays, after all money is the root of all evil, isn’t it?

Dave says:

01:51pm | 29/11/09

Hey Minchin, Fielding, Abbott and Co, could you go outside, start your car, put your mouth on the exhaust pipe, and get back to me on whether you think pollution is bad for natural living things? Thanks guys, my kids are real appreciative of your forward thinking.

Peter says:

02:07pm | 29/11/09

Why did Abbott and his mates wait until now to have a spill if they didn’t agree with having negotiations with the Government? They have spent 5 weeks negotiating and now they jump up and down and say we don’t want to pass the legislation before Copenhagen. It was passed in the party room, that was proved by the spill last week. If the majority were’nt in agreeance then Malcolm would have lost that spill. Abbott and crew are in the minority in the Liberal party it was proved once and will be proved again. How could getting rid of Turnbull now give them any credibility at all. What difference would it make having Hockey as Leader when he is aligned and on the record saying he agrees with Turnbull and the ETS should be passed?  For Hockey to now change his mind and agree with Abbott and Minchin would show he could never be trusted and that he has no principles what so ever. He is weak and would stand no chance against Rudd ever. Malcom is a leader, they accused him of not being so, now that he has stepped up to the plate they don’t like it.  Abbott and crew are ruining the Liberal Party not Turnbull. Go Malcom!  Abbott, Minchin, Robb and the rest of you go and join forces with Pauline.

Formersnag says:

02:38pm | 29/11/09

An ETS is very easily and simply explained. The good news. There is compensation for lower & middle income earners. Also for emitters of co2, in the beginning.

The bad news, in the first year or two, we will be no worse off, but as the free and cheaper carbon credits run out, the price of carbon credits will increase progressively. So bottom line, it will work the same as a GST, but with no exceptions for essential items like food, which have no GST applied, the ever increasing price of those carbon credits, will apply on everything.

GST only is added at the retail level, so we only pay it once. ETS tax will be added to manufacturing, wholesalers, transportation & retail. You will pay it 2, 3 or 4 times every time you buy anything.

The increasing carbon price will work the same as increasing the GST rate. So ETS tax will be 0% year 1, 5% year 2, 10% year 3, 20% year 4, 30% year 5, etc, etc, etc.

And who will these economic terrorists give your money to? Oh yes, the same international merchant bankers, responsible for the current GFC meltdown.

The next boom/bust cycle will be fuelled by carbon trading. Will GFC2 be worse?

Julian Thomas says:

03:37pm | 29/11/09

Anyone is anti-ETS, build a house on top of smokestak, even take your family there, if you canaries survive I will vote Liberal, if you dare not go up you are Liars and Hypocrites of the highest order

Geoff says:

03:41pm | 29/11/09

I would be quite happy to put MalcolmTurnbull’s name forward for preselection to a Labor Party seat.  I mean after all he’s been supporting and espousing Labor Party policy and denigrating his fellow Liberal party members with the same rhetoric used by the Labor Party.

He says he respects their opinions yet he denigrates them in the same sentence.

The thing with Malcolm is he talks to lots of people but he never listens to them.

Why is it that Labor has never table proof of man-made CO2 emissions causing catastrophic global warming?  Why haven’t the Liberals asked for proof of the basis for the CPRS and ETS to be tabled?

It’s bad enough we have one major party which gags it’s membership or whose members are too cowardly to voice dissent on an unproven theory.

I say good on the Liberals, at least they properly reflect public opinion on this.

As for risk management Malcolm…  how about we don’t risk sending everyone broke or down the toilet on an unproven theory.

Show me the money Malcolm…  put up the proof!

Until you do, I’d rather hang out with the “dissenting dinosaurs” than be found admiring Emperor Rudd’s new clothes.

John and Ann says:

03:45pm | 29/11/09

Joe don’t be hunch man for the traitors let them to their own dirty work.
Follow your faith and guidelines from the Bible not Howard.
Malcolm you are doing the right thing, never surrender to opportunists and fanatics.

Clara says:

04:00pm | 29/11/09

I was impressed with your leadership style. I wish the best for you Mr Turnbull, you would have made a great PM.  I took the Al Gore movie in hook, line and sinker previously, until I did my own research. Sorry to say this but duh, there is nothing hotter around than the sun as far as I can tell.

Good on you Malcolm says:

04:11pm | 29/11/09

One question for the climate change skeptics: what if you are wrong?

Anthony says:

05:00pm | 29/11/09

The President of the United States is heading to Copenhagen to support emissions reduction, so are leaders of China , the UK, France, Germany, Japan and many other countries. CHOGM has passed resolutions to combat emissions. The Queen has expressed her concern over climate change but opposition dinosaurs are still in denial and are now prepared to welch on a deal.
They are using the execuse- lets wait until after Copenhagen- why? We have been talking about an ETS for ten years;  they are just like Iran with its nuclear programme- offer to talk -talk -talk but never actaully agree to anything. And like the Iranians the Lib. deal welchers cannot be trusted.
New Zealand has an ETS, passed by a conservative Government.
Hope Turnbull manages to put these dinosaurs back into the dark ages where they belong.

DocBud says:

05:05pm | 29/11/09

Good on you Malcolm,

The climate will change, it is those who pretend there was a golden time of climate stability which humans have disturbed who are the real deniers, some believe this change is primarily natural (as it has been for most of the planet’s and humankind’s history), others that it is due to human CO2 emissions. The latter believe the world will get hotter, the former think it more probable on past evidence that we are in for a period of cooling.

By not wasting billions (trillions for a global deal) of dollars on an ETS, we’ll maximise the growth of the global economy, both lifting millions worldwide out of poverty and ensuring that we are best placed to adapt to whatever the climate throws at us.

The precautionary principle is not science, or even rationally, based as it calls for a risk, however, infinitisemally small, to be eliminated, irrespective of the cost. The correct approach is to try and apply (very difficult with such uncertain science)  a cost benefit analysis. By virtually any analysis, our children and grandchildren will be very much richer than we are (but a lot richer without an ETS), and hence far more able to pay for whatever adaptations are necessary.

Brett says:

05:26pm | 29/11/09

In response to Anthony comment at 1729hrs.
“The Queen even believes in Climate Change”. That changes everything for me, I was a disbeliever, but since you mention the Queen you have just totally changed my mind. Where do I donate my $1,100.00?

Pop says:

05:40pm | 29/11/09

We humans have to change.  Even if the climate doesn’t change due to man made fossil fuels, we can’t keep up growth based on unsustainable carbon fuel.  The ETS is just another lever to wean us away from the stuff and onto more sustainable energy sources.
Do you readers know how much coal is burnt in NSW alone just to generate electricity?  If we take an average state load of about 8000 MW then that requires about a 25 ton semi trailer of coal every 20 seconds. Night and Day, every day of the week.
As a society we are like a group of teenagers who have inherited a big bucket of fortune (ie fossil fuel) from a distant old relative (ie mother nature) who took millions of years to accumulate that fortune.  Instead of being wise with that fortune and building a future we are just having one almighty energy consuming party and burning it all.
Well folks the end of the party is in measurable years.  Are we going to keep partying and let our grandkids clean up the vomit and mess, even if they have the resources left to do so?  Or are we going to start being responsible and start weaning ourselves away from carbon?
Good on you Mal for standing up to the flat earth brigade of sceptics, although I think you might end up like King Canute.  Lets hope you can swim to fight another day and most them get ultimately carried away with the tide.

Fergie says:

06:15pm | 29/11/09

I wouldn’t trust what the Queen says, she was a bitch to Diana.

DocBud says:

06:18pm | 29/11/09

Pop says: Even if the climate doesn’t change due to man made fossil fuels, we can’t keep up growth based on unsustainable carbon fuel.

Why can’t we? Yes coal is a finite resource, but there is a lot of it left. In case you haven’t noticed, Pop, humans are incredibly resourceful, advancing technologically at an amazing rate. This will continue to be the case, alternative, cost effective fuels (not necessarily renewable) will be developed and advances in efficiency will be made. In the meantime, it makes perfect sense to use the cheapest fuel source to grow the economy.

If there is a major problem with fossil fuels (which I don’t believe there is) it would make sense to reduce consumption, but the “even if there isn’t a problem we should still spend billions, hit people in there pocket and cost jobs” argument is just crazy and suggests people have a different agenda to simply saving the planet.

Jack says:

07:41pm | 29/11/09

Mal. face it man you are toast; all of it of your own making.
You are too bloody arrogant to lead any group.

There are gifts there, but your pigheadedness remove all the abilities for you to be even a 2/IC in a company.

I would not assess you as able to lead a Platoon except to disaster.

Australia does not need two self important people of the calibre of K. Rudd to ruin it.
on the basis of dodgy data.

Paul Prentice says:

09:00pm | 29/11/09

If you agreed to buy a house of Penny Wrong and Madam Gillard
with a verbal agreement in GOOD FAITH,Then you go and check the house properly, you find its riddled with termites,do you still consider everything is in good faith ,or do you make a smart business decision,and tell them to stick it…Please dont anyone from the NSW Labor Party answer this question. We know what you would say.

Frank says:

12:20am | 30/11/09

Malcolm, you’re a goner. Watch this space ... by Wednesday, Australia will have a new Opposition leader.

What's fair says:

01:14am | 30/11/09

Hello again Punchers (another long post, I really need to work on writing more succinctly!!)

I am pleased to see that the civility of the posts has somewhat improved.

@ scio: youa re absolutely right that JWH proposed an ETS as part of the 2007 election campaign.  The email leak from East Anglia however was only one week ago…

I would be quite happy for Mr Rudd to communicate teh fact, unfortunately all we have heard from him lately on the issue was the very dissapointing presentation to the Lowy Institute.  No matter what side of politics you hail from, that speech was incredibly un-Australian.

As for the plethora of green and white papers they are based on results from the IPCC peer reviewed papers.  If the East Anglia emails proved to e true that the credibility of the green and white papers should also be called into question.  Need I also mention the Professor Spash debarcle??

Onto the sustainable growth theme (weaning ourselves off coal) that has also been adressed in comments above, I could not agree more.  However, the ETS would not be so much a lever on the economy as it would be a sledgehammer.  Pretty poor chioce of tool for woefully poor returns (5% reduction).  This is why nuclear becomes a much more feasible alternative to coal for base load power.  Wind and solar make people feel great butin my experience as an engineer they just have too many issues to make them a viable base load power solution (By the way, EVERYONE in this country should be making use of solar hot water, it is such a simple way to make you home run more efficiently)

Pop says:

08:20am | 30/11/09

DocBud says: “cost effective fuels (not necessarily renewable) will be developed and advances in efficiency will be made. In the meantime, it makes perfect sense to use the cheapest fuel source to grow the economy.”
Other than nuclear fuel, tidal and direct use of solar energy, I can’t think of any other fuel / energy source that is not based on carbon.  And the reality is that all those carbon fuels, trees, coal in all its varietes, plant species that became oil, were originally created by solar energy.  (Interestingly, you can consider coal fired power stations as really solar powered !!).  Even hydro power originates from solar energy.
Sure there is the ongoing promise of geothermal energy and fusion reactors but they have been ‘promising’ technology for years.  A hydrogen based fuel would be lovely but hydrogen doesn’t exist in quantity in nature so would need creating using large quantities of ???? fuel.
Docbud also says “....advances in efficiency will be made.”  Any gains here will be miniscule as the laws of thermodynamics constrain us.  Power plant designers already use every trick they can to get maximum efficiency.  Most coal fired ones operate around 43% efficient at best, and any talk of CO2 capture will only drive that down further.  And as for mobile transport, the conversion efficiency is way lower.
A thought provoking book to read on where we are heading and why we need to change is Collapse by Prof Jared Diamond.
I truly wish we could keep on what you advocate, the “grow the economy”, “business as usual” model, but I can’t see how we can. 
Climate change is the symptom; unsustainable growth based on finite resources is the disease.

DocBud says:

09:02am | 30/11/09

Pop,

“Climate change is the symptom; unsustainable growth based on finite resources is the disease.” What a mantra. The millions lifted out of poverty in recent decades in countries such as India and China might disagree with you. Who says its unsustainable? Climate change is a consequence of predominantly natural causes.

Jared Diamond is a fraud with an agenda:

http://www.staff.livjm.ac.uk/spsbpeis/EE 16-34_Peiser.pdf

The point I was making is that we can’t know now what brilliant innovations will be developed over the next century, but we can be sure that humanity will continue to advance (well, those of us who believe in humanity can) and fortunately we have enough current energy sources to maintain us through to those advances.

Belle says:

09:50am | 30/11/09

The issue, Malcolm, is not climate change, but the ETS.  Not being in favour of the government’s ETS does not make one a climate change sceptic.  Even the Young LIberals are not in favour of the ETS.  Send the legislation to Senate Comittee and give us all a breathing (thinking) space.

Bill says:

11:13am | 30/11/09

I spoke to Mother Nature last night, and she told me we are all worrying over nothing. She told me why do you think I invented fire? She told me it was so the trees could breath. Her lightning strikes are there to create fires and CO2 so the trees have something to inhale.
She said the big problem is clearing land upsets the balance of this process.

Carl Palmer says:

11:56am | 30/11/09

One has to wonder when of the 250+ comments posted here only 2 mention the word “nuclear” as a viable option. I hear lots of feel good stuff - solar, wind, waves, geo, candles, white coal, sequestration etc etc, mention Nuclear and everyone ducks for cover and there is a roaring silence. Of the G20 nations all are either planning or building nuclear stations except one. Which country would that be I wonder, they must be a dopey bunch.

Assuming one believes in AGW it is ludicrous to believe that an ETS is the only solution.

That’s in - I’m going to use a computer model to calculate my “carbon footprint” and then using another computer model I’ll calculate which plants have the highest absorption rates of CO2. I’ll then use another computer model to work out how many plants I’ll need and I’ll start to frantically plant them all around the place. Problem fixed. No ETS for me. Oh I forgot, since the human race exhales approx 0.6Gt of CO2 each year, I’ll sequest my .000000000000000000000000000000001Gt PA contribution. Too easy. You see, you don’t need a sledge hammer to crack a tiny nut(s).

Randal says:

12:27pm | 30/11/09

Malcolm, your are living in denial. It is over, you failed as leader as you lost the support of the shadow cabinet, the party room, the party and those that elected you to represent them. This occurred as you forgot the fundamental principle of democracy, ‘by the people and for the people’, as a leader your job is to represent the views and opinions of those who elected you and your party, not just the views of Malcolm. On Tuesday morning you will learn the consequences for those actions. I have a read a great deal of comment of your courage and strength, I disagree strongly, all I have seen is the same conceit and arrogance you displayed from the moment you arrived in Canberra. This is never more evident than in your refusal to resign from the leadership, allowing this circus to continue, despite the damage this is causing the party, just another example of you putting Malcolm first even though you have know that you have lost. Unfortunately Malcolm for men such as yourself ‘pride comes before the fall’ and that is why you are being deposed, as such men make the worst leaders and it is better to act now than later.

Pop says:

12:49pm | 30/11/09

Docbud, many thanks for that link about Jared Diamond’s work which I’ve downloaded and will try to digest it.  He may well have got Easter Island totally wrong however the overall point of his work is the collision course we are on between finite resources, degradation and unfettered growth.  We don’t have the option to move camp to another planet.
And I think we best agree to disagree about the cause of Climate Change.
I accept your point that we don’t know what brilliant innovations might be developed over the next century, and I sincerely hope you are right.  Having spent my working life in the power industry, I’m not so optimistic. 
I don’t see any sparkling technology ideas on the horizon.  And even if they are discovered, to quote Edison “Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration”, they will need major work, time and finance to bring to fruition. 
We don’t value the coal and oil that we burn now at anything like their true value.  We should be trying to string the life of this stuff out as long as we can, and using money from its use, in the hope of developing that new energy source.  We have to make sure that any money from a tax on fossil fuel is directed to such new discovery’s and development and not to short term political whim’s.

Susanna says:

01:59pm | 30/11/09

Malcolm, your mouth-foaming opponents lack what you have in spades: integrity. Progressive voters everywhere have taken note of your courage this week, mark my words. I haven’t seen this sort of conviction among the ranks of the current ALP front bench, and lord knows I vote for them. I think an earlier commenter had it right when he suggested you form a new party -  one that is secular, republican and libertarian. There’s political life left in you yet Malcolm - shrug off these neo-cons you’ve been mixing with. They do you down.

DocBud says:

02:19pm | 30/11/09

Pop,

Thanks for the civilised discussion.

I’d favour not having a tax and letting private enterprise come up with the solutions to what is for it a major issue in terms of uninterrupted supply and cost. I find governments inefficient and, as you correctly note, too driven by political expediency. The billions spent on climate change research, much of it to the climategate scientists, has diverted funds which I believe could have been much better spent.

andrew says:

02:22pm | 30/11/09

All the pundits,voters, rational people can’t be wrong. We need a progressive leader to take us forward; in the liberal party or a new party.

Geoff says:

03:28pm | 30/11/09

Actually what we really need are real conservatives. People who don’t change things just for change’s sake.  People who think before they leap.

Carl Palmer says:

04:37pm | 30/11/09

Carl Palmer says: 11:56am | 30/11/09
Apology should have been Phil Jones not John L Daley

Pop says:

05:17pm | 30/11/09

@ DocBud.  I agree governments are often inefficient, and politicians often self serving - that’s why we only trust them for 3-4 years!  However big business is often not much better as the ongoing debacle over CEO’s and their crony’s self serving pay packets. 
On the other hand there are hard working and future building politicians, bureaucrats and CEO’s at all levels.  We just need more of them.
@ Carl Palmer - yes it is interesting that there’s little mention of nuclear.  We are getting a little off the news topic but I hope the moderator is not that strict.
As a retired thermal power station operator I have to admit that nuclear bothers me.  I have no doubt that in the wee hours of night shift the operators of nuclear power stations are no more alert than any other shift worker at that hour.  And a stuff up in a nuclear one is very serious.
We had a saying that the “further you are away in time from a disaster then the closer you are to the next one”.  Now I know that blind Freddy can see obvious logic in that statement, however what it means is that we get complacent as time goes by and forget the lessons of the last disaster or stuff up, or start to take more risk.  Its human nature in all of us from the base line worker to the CEO.  A nuclear power station that’s been operating without incident for many years is just as much at risk of stuff ups as a slacker one.  As they age then more risk is taken to keep them going.
IF Australia were to go nuclear energy, then I would favour a boots and all approach.  We should also offer to be the major nuclear waste depository as well.  (I can hear green fingers ripping at the keyboard now). 
But think about it - what is required to safely contain nuclear wastes?  Geologically stable, politically stable, available land, educated peoples, technically advanced.  Australia would have to get a triple A+ rating on all counts (except maybe the current Malcontents).
Our other energy source is solar which we have buckets of and farmers should be ‘cropping’ but that’s another topic.

Rach says:

09:53pm | 30/11/09

Every year we talk about the ANZACs and the sacrifices they made so that we, future generations might have happy and safe lives without death and destruction in our homeland. We talk about how they gave up their livelihood and very often their lives so that we could be here, and free, and yet there are those now who think that we shouldn’t have to pay a bit extra for electricity and change a few things in our infrastructure so that our children and their children can enjoy the same country that we and previous generations have without fear of environmental disaster?

This really is the issue of our century. Previous generations have dealt with huge wars, social upheaval, depressions, plagues etc and this is our problem. There always seem to be those who are unwilling to take decisive action to solve these problems, and they are never remembered kindly in history books. Not only do I and most Australians today admire your unwavering commitment to this issue, but future generations will learn that you stood up for it against some of your colleagues and you made a real contribution to the beginning of a new era in Australia.

I will never, ever forget the awful thing that Tony Abbott, Nick Minchin and the others involved in trying to ruin the ETS and your leadership have done and i definitely won’t vote for a party that has them as frontbenchers. I’ll never vote for anyone who didn’t support the bill as they are either clearly an idiot who doesn’t deserve to have power or are so weak that they will be pushed around by others who don’t care about what Australia and the world needs. Denying climate change is like denying the holocaust or Sept 11, and not doing anything about it is cruel, ruining the earth for us and the billions who will come after us.

I wasn’t old enough to vote at the last election and when i do make my first vote at the next i think i’ll decide who i vote for based on this issue. If anyone like Abbott, Minchin or any other denier is still around i will not vote Liberal. They need to go.

To the deniers: You’re all about 60 and it’s okay for you isn’t it? You’ll be dead in 20 years. But everyone my age has to live for another 60, and future generations have to live here too. Think about other people for once and stop being selfish.

Guy says:

10:28pm | 30/11/09

I hope you win.  If the dinosaurs in your party have you for breakfast, you will be the best PM the country never had.

Old guy says:

11:13pm | 30/11/09

Rach, I’m 60, I’m a pensioner, and I agree with you. You have a heart and a mind - you’re our hope for the future. That is why we try to put the case for climate change. That is why we ask MPs: pass the ETS. Honour your word, do your duty to your country - and pass the ETS.

Thank heavens for the young.

Grant says:

11:24pm | 30/11/09

Goodluck Mal,  Nice to see a politician that still believes in sticking to his word.  The knives are certainly out and I think it’s a shame individuals within the party are putting their own personal agenda’s and beliefs before that of the party. 

As for the sceptics of climate change and ETS who seem to think this legislation will be the end of time as we know it.  I myself think the planet has more ability to deal with excess carbon than we give it credit for.  However whether climate change is man made, or the planets natural cycle how much harm can really come from reducing carbon pollution?

As a country we should be on the front foot of this battle, investing in new technologies and then licensing it to the rest of the world.  Regardless of climate change, oil is only heading upwards in price, so bring on a cleaner greener future….it will create jobs and save us money in the long term

I wonder how many industries will be forced to help themselves out due to this legislation….change is not a bad thing if you can embrace it.

Pop says:

11:35pm | 30/11/09

Hey Rach, I’m nearly 65 and I’m with you so don’t tar all of us old farts with that ‘You’re all about 60, therefore deniers’ brush. 

Sure there’s a swag of deniers in the older bracket, but there’s a lot well under 60 too.  Just take a look at the ages of some of the denier politicians that are doing Mal in.

Yes, your generation, and the ones after you are going to be the inheritor’s of this flat earth thinking.  I’d love to leave a future for my grand kids besides a dirty sky and dirty big holes.  So it heartens me to see someone like yourself standing up.

Geoff says:

09:00am | 01/12/09

What a crock!
Malcolm is hardly virtuous.
He’s been spinning and lying for days.  He’ll catch up to Ruddy soon.
The agreement was between malcolm and the party to enter into negotiations with the ALp on the ETS etc.  The agreement was that then the party would decide if to accept what was finally offered or reject it.
malcolm it seems wanted to accept it and because of his belief in MMCO2 catastrophy overrode the Party.
His 2nd lie was that a party that did not accept the ETS etc would DO NOTHING.  There is a lot that can be done that does not involve acceptance of this particularly useless piece of legislation.
Regardless of his belief or others disbelief in man’s affect on climate, the legislation is still a crock.

Carl Palmer says:

03:53pm | 01/12/09

Pop – I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. Vigilance is paramount and I’m sure that there are many valuable lessons that we could learn from other successful countries that are using nuclear power. France is a big user.

I don’t think you are alone with your nuclear waste proposition, I could be wrong but I vaguely recall Bob Hawk making the same suggestions a few years back citing the same reasons as outlined by you. It is definitely left field but worth considering. I’m sure you can hear the roaring protesters.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.

Bernard Anaya says:

05:55am | 30/05/10

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Gilda Mallory says:

07:03am | 31/05/10

If only I had a greenback for each time I came here.. Incredible article!

Emory Aguilar says:

09:40am | 01/06/10

If only I had a greenback for every time I came here.. Amazing writing.