WARNING: This could turn you vegetarian

RT says:

10:43am | 21/01/11

Bravo AFR, bravo.

cretin says:

11:21am | 21/01/11

yeah its a good thing that the animals we eat, consume mostly plants/grass/veges.  Its through them that i get my daily vege requirements!! 

“No, its not a steak sandwich,... its a ‘steak & veg’ sandwich. You just can’t see the veg hidden in the steak.”

Russell says:

02:37pm | 21/01/11

I wonder how many of the meat eaters have ever been into an abbitoir and watched how its actually done. Do yourselves a favour and book a tour! The worst that can happen is you become a vegetarian!

philip says:

05:15pm | 21/01/11

so say everyone suddenly becomes vegetarian were still going to kill the competition for our food supplies hell the amazon will be wiped out overnight just to get the land to produce said food supply.

Diana says:

03:07pm | 22/01/11

Oh Phillip, get an education. We clear the forests because SO much land is devoted to growing crops to feed the animals that we then eat. We would need much less land if that crop-growing was for feeding ourselves directly. You really need to do some reading before making a comment like that.

NJP says:

06:15pm | 22/01/11

@George Morgan - read it and wasn’t persuaded; lacking in logic and sound reasoning.

How about giving this well articulated article a look-in: http://www.econot.com/page4.html

That is, if your brave enough to have your views challenged.

George Morgan says:

01:01pm | 25/01/11

@NJP

I read the article. Yet another long-winded attempt to make people who are concerned about our wasteful use of the planet’s resources look like they belong to some kind of human-hating cult.

I’ll take the trouble to make just one point. There is no “moral rightness” to keeping a breeding pig in a stall for months at a time that is so narrow the creature cannot turn around or even lie down. As is currently the industry-accepted practice in Australia

No “moral rightness” whatsoever.

Surely you can see that?

NJP says:

03:47pm | 25/01/11

No George it does not suggest that at all. Those who are concerned about “our wasteful use of the planet’s resources” are most likely honest ordinary people at the grassroots level, aka ‘useful idiots’ to the deep ecology zealots at the top of the chain. Please do not post straw man fallacies; they are not factual and just obfuscate the discussion at hand.

It may not be your intention, or of many other like minded people at your local level, but environmentalist values undermine human life, as was illustrated SEVERAL times within the article. You didn’t refute these examples. It even quotes anti-human sentiments from several important stakeholders within the movement over the past century or two, directly from the horses mouth. You didn’t mention these either.

So far I’ve yet to see any logical refutation of this article’s contention and/or conclusion, nor have I seen anyone successfully defend the philosophical values of environmentalism, nor have I seen anyone demonstrate that nature has ‘intrinsic value’ [a self-contradicting notion] All of these outstanding questions are damning in my eyes, all the more so when people read the article, reject it out of hand without even addressing the points made in it, as you yourself have just done.

Animal rights isn’t based on scientific or economic fact, it is derived from philosophical values. The article articulates what these values are [with supporting evidence of course] and unsurprisingly we find they conflict with the values of liberty and property rights.

As for your anecdote about the pig, well I’ve grown up on a farm. All I can say is I haven’t been hundreds of other farms, but I’ve been to perhaps a dozen or so. I’ve never witnessed the practice you described. Anecdotes =/= data. Nonetheless I understand why you would choose to use graphic imagery and loaded language instead of facts and logic.

Personally I would find such treatment of pigs to be unnecessary, perhaps even unethical, and so I wouldn’t do it myself, but I would not interfere with other farmer’s property rights; what they do with their livestock is none of my business and NONE OF YOURS.

It’s highly unlikely I’ve persuaded you but since we’re in the habit of ending our posts with (from the author’s perspective) rhetorical questions, let me ask you the following: without the slaughter of animals for clothing and food, would humans have progressed beyond caves and past the neolithic revolution? Honest answer to this one please.

George Morgan says:

01:40pm | 26/01/11

Oh, I see ...  I don’t belong to a human-hating cult. Instead, I am simply a foolish tool of some higher conspiracy of human-hating zealots. My mistake. As for ‘‘environmental values undermine human life’’ – well, such values in fact SUPPORT human life by making better use of increasingly scarce resources. Go to any online ‘‘environmental footprint’’ calculator you can find. Punch in answers as to how you live your life. Then do it again, but list yourself as vegan or vegetarian. Your environmental footprint will halve. Fact.

To answer your question first. I have no doubt that hunting animals for food and skins etc helped the Neolithic tribes to advance. Happy? Snag is, if you look around, you will notice we are no longer Neolithic. Modern society makes it easy and, indeed, preferable (in terms of ethics and resources) to flourish without the use of animals for food and other products. I should point out that early man also advanced by stronger males sexually assaulting females they found attractive and unprotected, and by attacking rival clans/settlements etc and killing the occupants for their food and land, or perhaps using them as slaves. And so on. These ‘‘survival of the fittest’’ tactics helped mankind to progress. But you may notice they’re out of favour now.

As for pigs. I’m surprised you’ve not heard how Australia is clinging to cruel practices now banned in Europe. A simple Google search would have confirmed this, but of course you’re trying to win an argument, not learn something new. I won’t post the grisly information you can find on http://www.savebabe.com because you’ll dismiss it as ‘‘graphic’’ and ‘‘loaded’’ even though it is factual. Instead, have a look at this more clinical evaluation from the RSPCA:

http://www.rspcavic.org/campaigns_news/campaigns_sow_stalls_code_review.htm

But even that might not cut much ice with you, since you claim that no matter what a farmer or other person does to an animal on their land, no matter how cruel or inhumane, that is their right. So the RSPCA and any other farming peak body would in your eyes be a bunch of illegitimate, interfering busybodies, and if anyone wants to keep animals in appalling conditions it is their inalienable right.
I fear your beliefs are far too extreme for us to reach any understanding.

Tania says:

07:44am | 09/02/11

There are plenty of great examples of vegan/vegetarian athletes out there and many people who quietly go about their daily vegetarian lives.
To become vegetarian or vegan is to face the truth…killing non human animals for food/clothing, sport or experimentation is morally/ethically wrong. No matter if you kill the animal yourself or purchase it dead in a safe little plastic wrapped anon parcel from the supermarket YOU are complicit!! face the truth

KJB says:

04:00pm | 17/05/11

I wish I could fathom a response to justify the pure anger towards those
a) making this a joke
b) proudly eating meat.

Vegetarian, healthier than ever and guess what - I AM morally superior than you.
I am better than you, because I don’t torture and murder anything to feed myself.

Honestly, you’re an ignorant dick to eat meat.

Joan says:

07:42am | 21/01/11

And by extension ....Plants. legumes etc are here for their own purpose too….

Grumpy says:

07:53am | 21/01/11

Rubbish. Animals eat each other what makes you better than the natural order of things? Morals? If we weren’t meant to eat them or designed to eat them we would get sick from eating it. Theres not enough protein in vegetables to sustain muscle development in kids or athletes. You can’t argue with science, there will never be a vegetarian body builder or swimmer or just about any sport. Even with drugs it would be a challenge to build lean muscle mass without the amino acids and protein that a small piece of meat provides. Most Vegetarians end up sick a few times in their life because of a lack of varied nutrition that is available from vegetables.

Tim says:

08:07am | 21/01/11

Stop the murder of these innocent fruits and vegetables.
What did they ever do to you?

Ted says:

08:09am | 21/01/11

Three very simple points, firstly the ability to achieve a balanced intake of vitamins and minerals is extremely difficult with the absence of animal products from your food chain and unless you are on top of this your health WILL suffer. Secondly, just because you eat meat doesn’t mean you can’t have a wide variety of foods, it is a choice. But thirdly and most importantly, look inside your mouth. Your teeth tell you that you have evolved as an omnivore. Your body is designed to eat meat as well as vegetables.

pC says:

08:46am | 21/01/11

i thought the purpose of a cow was to give me food to eat. Unless we’ve been killing and eating them just before they win a nobel peace prize, or paint a masterpiece, or find the cure to deadly diseases…in which case i’ll feel awful.

Geoff - Brisbane says:

09:09am | 21/01/11

@ Grumpy - Actually we do get sick from eating them. Thats why no one serves raw meat. It was human’s ability to counter this (cooking) that allows us to eat the animals.

To the Vegies - death by other animals is often more traumatic than death by humans. Look at the Lions they just start taking chunks out of their dieing food. At least when humans eat, we eat dead animals.

Also i hope the anti-slaughter vegies don’t get pest control, unless they’re hypocrites. Why is someone the devil for eating meat (from cute and fuzzy animals) but its alright to kill not so cute and fuzzy animals like spiders and roaches? (remebering poisions take longer to kill than slaughter)

Stephy says:

09:30am | 21/01/11

Tim,

Lyrics from Carrot Juice is Murder?

here’s the Youtube link to the song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmK0bZl4ILM (skip to about 50 seconds in)

Nomeat says:

10:20am | 21/01/11

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Scott_(triathlete)

Dave Scott won the Hawaiian Iron Man six times as a VEGAN.

April says:

10:37am | 21/01/11

I agree with you Anna.  I can’t even stand the thought of eating dead flesh now, and what is it with us calling blood ‘juice’?!

@ Grumpy;- “If we weren’t meant to eat them or designed to eat them we would get sick from eating it.”  So we are meant to eat each other then?  Because there have been cannabals eating humans for centuries and they never got sick from eating each other.

Markus says:

11:02am | 21/01/11

@Geoff, with the exception of getting salmonella etc from a batch of bad chicken, the only reason people get sick from raw meat nowadays is because it has been years (in some case thousands of years) since our bodies have tried to process it.

That is not to say our bodies cannot still do it, they just need to re-accustom themselves to it.
The Japanese, for example, still eat raw fish as a staple of their diet, and things such as raw horse are considered a delicacy.

Lettuce Head says:

11:06am | 21/01/11

Grumpy says -
‘there will never be a vegetarian body builder or swimmer or just about any sport’

1 Carl Lewis
2 Bill Pearl
3 Billie Jean King
4 Martina Navratilova
5 Robert Parish
6 Dave Scott

To name just a few.

Most of the arguments here are essentially ridiculous, based clearly on nothing but your own lack of knowledge, or simply that you are too stupid to see beyond your own taste buds.

-murdering fruit and vegetables
-not killing them if they paint a masterpiece
-the difference between accidentally killing a snail and institutionalising   killing for food
-not enough protein

I think we have seen enough evidence to state that eating meat certainly does not increase your intelligence.

I like the taste of meat, but there are more reasons not to eat it than there are to continue to. The challenge is to convince me to eat meat, i.e, think about what you are saying, don’t just believe what your grandma was told 50 years ago.

I think there needs to be an intelligence test to enter comments on this forum.

Tim says:

11:17am | 21/01/11

Nomeat,
isn’t he sort of the exception that proves the rule?
You’ll also note that he’s no longer exclusively vegetarian.
What do you think the percentage of vegetarian athletes is? I’m betting it would be extremely low.

Chinaski says:

11:23am | 21/01/11

@ Geoff - you’ve obviously never been to Paris if you think people don’t serve meat raw.

Humans were made to eat meat - the fact is, an entire industry has been built so we can eat meat without having to go through the “primitive” ritual of slaughtering the animals first.

I for one am not going to let people lose jobs and more importantly let animals lose lives in vain just because it’s not “morally right” to eat meat. Plus, I like a good steak.

Tim says:

11:27am | 21/01/11

Lettuce Head,
most of the reasons given on this forum for not eating meat are spurious at best.
I don’t care if you don’t eat meat, but if you want me to stop, YOU have to give me reasons to, not just because some hippy vegan told you that killing animals is wrong.

Mitch says:

11:39am | 21/01/11

@ Grumpy

“Theres not enough protein in vegetables to sustain muscle development in kids or athletes”

Do a google images search for “mac danzig” and check out the muscle definition. Mac is a UFC cage fighter and has been a vegan for 6+ years so he gets even less proteins etc than other “egg eating” vegetarians.

George Morgan says:

12:08pm | 21/01/11

@Tim wrote:
“YOU have to give me reasons to, not just because some hippy vegan told you that killing animals is wrong.”

If anyone is serious about wanting to hear the arguments in support of a no-meat diet, try reading “The Ethics of What We Eat” by Peter Singer.

If you’re brave enough to have your views challenged, that is ...

Mr GG says:

12:13pm | 21/01/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcUxHOF6D8g

And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber. And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself. And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest. And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil. One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear. And terror possesed me then. And I begged, “Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?” And the angel said unto me, “These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust.” And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared, “Hear me now, I have seen the light! They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!” Can I get an amen? Can I get a hallelujah? Thank you Jesus.
Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on….....

This is necessary.

Markus says:

12:18pm | 21/01/11

Lettuce Head “The challenge is to convince me to eat meat”.
It isn’t really at all. We couldn’t give a crap if you don’t eat meat. The challenge is to get self-righteous vegans to shut the hell up and carry on with their diets without publically proclaiming they are morally superior than everyone else.

Tim says:

12:39pm | 21/01/11

@George,
I’ve read Singer’s book.
He makes some good points but some of the arguments are simply against current farming methods, not against eating meat in general.
Singer also believes that bestiality is OK in certain circumstances as well, so he is a bit of a strange one.
As I’ve mentioned below, read Simon Fairlie’s book - Meat, A Benign Extravagance for another point of view on meat eating.

Spanish Girl says:

12:55pm | 21/01/11

Tim

I agree with you.  Not eating meat should only ever be a personal choice and no one should EVER tell you are right/wrong because of it.

I think eating meat is wrong, but it’s only wrong for me.  I would never dream of telling anyone to not do it.  My partner eats meat and I don’t have a problem with that.  I’ll even buy him chicken to keep in my freezer so that when he comes over after being at the gym, he can prepare his own food the way he likes it. But as he’s sensitive to my lifestyle choices, most of the time he brings his own.  Along with his meat dish, he’ll happily eat whatever veggies/side dish I prepare for myself. 

If I saw someone harming an animal for any reason, I would try and stop them.  But that’s only because if I can intervene I will.  Otherwise, I just bypass the meat section in the supermarket and leave everyone to make their own moral choices.

Lettuce Head says:

12:55pm | 21/01/11

Markus, all I am saying is look up the issues for yourself and do some research, don’t just blindly believe what you have always believed for the sake of your taste buds.

It is not that hard to type ’ vegetarian diet’ into google

But if you insist, I will just have to remain privately morally superior.

Lettuce Head says:

01:05pm | 21/01/11

Tim, I think YOU are quite capable of looking into the matter yourself.

I think you will find that with 5 minutes hard work googling you will find that most of the reasons in favour of a meat free diet are in fact entirely true and that meat becomes a bit problematic.

But hey, t don’t let your health, conscience or the environment get in the way of your taste buds.

Markus says:

01:36pm | 21/01/11

No Lettuce, what you’re saying is look up the issues for myself (immediately assuming I haven’t already) and then come to the same conclusion you did.

I know the potential health issues from an imbalanced meat diet, just as I do the potential health isues from an imbalanced vegan diet.
I know better than you where meat comes from - I have had hands-on contribution to the whole process. And I am okay with it.
What you call your conscience, many would just call a weak stomach.

im says:

01:52pm | 21/01/11

yes Anna what ever did that stick of celery ever do to you. Golly gosh and shame.

ps i like babys but i couldnt eat a whole one

Yum says:

03:02pm | 21/01/11

Come on Anna. If we weren’t supposed to eat animals why are they made out of meat?

Troy McClure says:

03:47pm | 21/01/11

“Don’t kid yourself, Jimmy. If a cow ever got the chance, he’d eat you and everyone you care about!”

Phil S says:

10:04pm | 22/01/11

Geoff - Brisbane: Your logic is flawed.

Let’s start with the difference between cooking a mince based burger, and a steak (both beef).

A mince burger must be cooked all the way through, yet steak is often served still bleeding on the inside (raw on the inside).

The reason is bacteria, and where it lives. Bacteria cannot penetrate into the inside of a steak. But it can with mince, because there are lots of air pockets, etc. Thus, as long as you cook the outside of a steak, you are fine to eat the rest as raw as you like.

Now, if you eat the steak as soon as you cut it out of a cow (or preserve it will), you will also be exposed to minimal bacteria.

As mentioned above, we’d also have developed a resistance to common bacteria found on the meat, which we wouldn’t have any more.

Sorry, Science says we’ve eaten meet for a long time, and that we need it to live healthily. Funnily enough, religion says the same thing. Wonder if that’s the only thing they agree on?

marley says:

07:45am | 23/01/11

On the subject of raw meat - ever had steak tartare?  Raw hamburger,  capers, onion and raw egg.  Wonderful!  Or carpaccio?  Thin slices of raw beef sprinkled with pepper, olive oil and parmesan.  My favourite appetizer.  How about oysters naturel or sashimi?  Man is perfectly capable of digesting raw meat - as capable as any other animal. 

We’re just a bit more advanced, and know (and can mitigate) the effects of eating raw meat that isn’t freshly killed.

Ray says:

06:36am | 27/01/11

Anna, it’s because our ancestors ate meat that our brains had enough energy to develop into the complex organ that it has, allowing us to debate issues such as this.  The thought (another higher brain function) of wandering around half starved looking for edible bits that some other plant eater has missed or rejected does not make my mouth water.  As for eating raw meat, any one remember Steak Tartare? when prepared freshly is divine. And yes I have been to a slaughter house and watched the process, it’s not pretty, it does smell, and it gives you great respect for the animal you are about to consume.  A meat tray in the supermarket is no longer a piece of protein, it was part of a living animal.

Dan says:

08:03am | 21/01/11

You don’t know what you are missing, I kill my own meat and grow my own potatoes.

The thing is where do you stop? When I grow my own potatoes there are slugs and snails, I kill them with snail pellets that slowly paralyse the snail and kills them over a period of hours. Are their lives any less important that the cute little bunny rabbit?

Also being killed instantly does make a big difference I assure you. Would you prefer to know nothing about it, ie there one moment gone the next or would you prefer lingering in pain for two years while your family stand around you not knowing what to do.

Finally Humans are not the only animals guilty of cruelty. Ever seen a cat play with a mouse? A fox tear down a lamb or footage of a killer whale playing with a seal? Mother nature can be a bitch sometimes too.

Faz says:

08:50am | 21/01/11

It’s not the growing of the spuds, Eno, everything likes to grow.

It’s the wrenching them out of their muddy womb, the skinning them alive, the pulling their eyes out and the boiling them in water or, worse still, frying them in hot oil!

Oh the humanity!

Gregg says:

10:21am | 21/01/11

@Dan,
What, no sluggy snail cruchies or stir fry?

SalC says:

10:32am | 21/01/11

Eno it seems I haven’t inherited my mother’s green thumbs, so it’s off to the green grocer I go.  And I eat meat.  I’d love to be more self sufficient but even my rosemary is struggling.

ImaWestie says:

02:23pm | 22/01/11

Nothing tastes as fine as chicken, lamb, beef or yearling pork, raised by your own hand.

If only I still had the land.

Austin 3:16 says:

05:52pm | 22/01/11

Think about it when you cook steak and chips. The cow was killed as humanely as possible and turned into steak.

The potatoe was pulled from the ground alive, transported alive, skinned alive, cut up alive and then thrown into hot oil.

Macca says:

08:12am | 21/01/11

@TChong, I’ve read similar things regarding the protein in cooked meat (when we started to use fire) as a reason for growth in brain size / evolution etc. Meat is essential for human / normal animal development (as is green stuff).

Ironside says:

08:48am | 21/01/11

Chongy thats the closest shaving of Godwin’s law i think i have ever seen, right on the line without stepping over….well done

fatalberton says:

08:51am | 21/01/11

wtf would Richard Attenborough know about dietary requirements???

I think your meat-based diet has given you cancer of the brain.

fairsfair says:

09:20am | 21/01/11

Macca I watched a doco recently about that. The premise of the show was that our discovery of fire and ability to cook protein has lead to our rapid evolution to intelligence. It was quite interesting and the way in which it was presented, feasable. 

I gotta start cooking my meat more

Gregg says:

10:30am | 21/01/11

Chongy mate, just to save you from being mistifiably confused again, our cattle at the abbatoirs can be killed with a spring loaded Pow unit, they being more than instantly knocked senseless.

There are however some blood thirsty events about where the ritual throat cutting and even sometimes a bloody sip is a high event of the day.
It is also not unknown for amateur butchers of the day to die, some by their own or anothers hand wielding a blade whilst also with others wrestling some unfortunate beast to the ground.

And then what can be happening to some of our doggie friends in preparation for sizzling is beyond blood thirsty and of extreme cruelty.

Ange says:

11:53am | 21/01/11

Actually my Neice is a vegetarian and when recently pregnant she was concerned about her protein levels during pregnancy so was regularly checked, only to find that her levels were well in the high end range. She doesn’t eat any meat or seafood.

Protein is protein no matter what the source and there are plenty of foods other than meat which can provide protein.

Stephy says:

08:05am | 25/01/11

Ange, protein isn’t such a worry. It’s Iron. Now late in pregnancy and diagnosed as anaemic, I’m trying to find iron rich foods I can eat on top of my iron supplements. Red meat just happens to be an easy way of getting iron through my diet. I’m sure there are vegan alternatives, but having cut out red meat and then had to take it up again (Since I don’t like seafood, that’s not an option, and thats the other main provider of iron).

Alex says:

08:00am | 21/01/11

You didn’t fight your way to the top of the food chain. Your food chain is pre-prepared, packaged and delivered to a supermarket near you. I doubt you’ve even seen your meat in its original, live state.

Tim H says:

08:13am | 21/01/11

Alex, given the way humans kill each other, I feel the animals are the lucky ones.

Nola James says:

08:30am | 21/01/11

Bravo Alex.

I am not a vegetarian. Although I don’t shop at the supermarket either. There is an ethical middle ground if you look hard enough.

Rich says:

09:27am | 21/01/11

Alex you can come round and see my family like many other kill our pigs or sheep and process it- we arent all lazy and we live in the city, so its not a city thing more generatiosn of italian culture, ofcourse we do often get the cow pre killed as can be a bit messy in the courtyard.  i guess you grow and pick all your veggies or does it make you feel good that you pick them out of the Macro section in woolies or some organic green grocer..

april says:

10:18am | 21/01/11

Mary, You fought your way to the top fo the food chain?  WHEN??  When someone else makes the animal pregnant through artificial insemination, when someone else feeds the animals steriods to make it grow faster, when someone else transports it to the abbotoirs, when someone else slits it’s throat, when someone else skins and guts the animal, when someone else cuts it up, when someone else packages it, when someone else transports it to the supermarket, when someone else puts it on the shelf for You to then pick up and purchase?

Tara says:

11:24am | 21/01/11

Alex says: 08:00am | 21/01/11
You didn’t fight your way to the top of the food chain. Your food chain is pre-prepared, packaged and delivered to a supermarket near you. I doubt you’ve even seen your meat in its original, live state.

Love this Alex!  I’m going to quote this elsewhere, if you don’t mind?

Mary Hinge says:

11:36am | 21/01/11

April and Alex - congratulations, you are hereby commended for your services to the mentally unbalanced. Your comments, while amusing, show you know nothing about… well, I can only assume everything. Food chains, as you are obviously not aware, are the relationships that exist in nature dictating whether something is prey or predator. The more animals that prey on your species the lower down the food chain you are. Conversely, if your species is just a predator you sit atop the food chain. Humans, having no natural predators or at least having contained those that once were, obviously sit on top of the food chain. Ergo, being as I am a human, I am obviously on top of the food chain. The fact that I don’t even have to fight for my food, rather than hindering the arguent, enhances it.

The comment about fighting my way to the top of the food chain is what we in the business call a bit of tongue in cheek humour, which you would have recognised had you eaten the meat required to aid full brain development.

Clarise says:

12:18pm | 21/01/11

First of all, you’re not at the top of the food chain, carnivorous big cats and bears are. Secondly, you say you fought your way to the top of the food chain? So dear Miss Mary, when exactly was the last time you went out into the forest, bow and arrow in hand, and hunt down your last meal? Oh right, you hunted the pre-packaged flesh down during the Red Spot sale at Woolworths!

baal says:

02:02pm | 21/01/11

As a person who has hunted animals capable of killing me, killed them, skinned them, dressed them then cooked them to perfection I can attest that have used my skills as a top predator.
The act of the hunt is a unique thing, I do recommend bow and arrow or a knife, it makes the kill more satisfying and puts you on more of an even footing. Except when it comes to wild pigs, then hand me the .303 cause those bastards are tough.
I have also attended car accident and seen first hand how fragile the human body is, that will haunt me for life, but humans are my species and I am reluctant to kill my own kind. I am an apologetic speciest, humans before other animals.
I am disturbed by domesticated city folk lecturing others of the brutality of the kill, however the only reason they find the kill so disturbing is due to the fact they are seperated from thier true natures, from thier instincts like housecats.

Marge says:

12:44pm | 21/01/11

Lisa “I’m going to become a vegetarian”
Homer “Does that mean you’re not going to eat any pork?”
“Yes”
“Bacon?”
“Yes Dad”
“Ham?”
“Dad all those meats come from the same animal”
“Right Lisa, some wonderful, magical animal

Wayne Kerr says:

08:20am | 21/01/11

Same here. I’ve seen animals killed and I’ve eaten them not long after.  To quote the Lion King “its the circle of life”.  It’s never put me off. It’s just made me understand the process better.

I’ve known people who have stopped eating chicken once they realise that chickens aren’t born plucked, gutted and frozen.

In the old days killing animals for food was understood and a natural part of life. Society has since become a wee bit protected and now its shocking that the scotch fillet you ate last night came from an animal that had to be killed

Lady Sith says:

10:40am | 21/01/11

Same here, we lived in the suburbs…. had a pig and chickens - we feed them and when it comes to fiesta time, we kill them for their meat. I grew up watching them “slaughtered” and I don’t find anything wrong it. It’s the natural order of things.

As others have pointed out, if we weren’t meant to eat it, why is it there?

GingerKitty says:

01:56pm | 21/01/11

Thankyou Happy Cynic for clarifying how Kosher and Halal meat is produced.

Compared to how most animals are slaughtered these days, the Jewish and Islamic way of slaughtering is the most “humane” as the animal must not be slaughtered infront of other animals. The animal is also offered a drink of water before the slaughter and is not even allowed to see the knife which it will be slaughtered with.

Ray says:

10:59am | 27/01/11

Ginger Kitty, are you sure the Islamic way of slaughtering is the most ‘humane’? Slitting it’s throat so it bleeds out, after cutting a tendon or two in the legs sounds fairly barbaric to me, but I guess it’s ok if the beast never saw it coming.  The modern Australian abbatoir uses a compressed air powered ‘bolt gun’ which fires a spring retracted steel rod directly into the beasts brain, death is instant.  It is then hung and it’s throat opened to bleed out.  The smaller animals, lambs, sheep, are dispatched with a quick twist of the neck around what is effectively a metal version of a cricketers leg pad.  If I had to choose my method of dispatch I’d prefer the Australian method over the Islamic any day.  It’s a pity we don’t offer the same consideration to our terminally ill.

Charlie says:

09:32am | 21/01/11

Clearly the lion is a serial offender of other animals rights, i would think the UN shoudl step in at some stage or perhaps those lovely folks at PETA could act as a peace keeping force.  every time a lion heads towards its dinner..i mean another animal with evil intent, PETA Force can instruct him that he is hurting their feelings and would be ever so nice to consider munching on the grass.  eventually this should solve the problem of the existance of PETA.

Andrew says:

10:30am | 21/01/11

I’m sure lions can be trained to eat tofu..

Diana says:

03:20pm | 22/01/11

“being vegetarian is a luxury, one that only westerners can really afford”
How about a big chunk of Hindu India?

Re your other points, it’s one thing to eat animals you have raised and slaughtered yourself. Quite another to eat plastic-wrapped, feedlot-produced, antibiotic-ridden, grain-fed, disprespected animals.

Tim says:

08:12am | 21/01/11

Yep,
i’ve been to an intensive chicken farm. Didn’t really bother me.
I did however switch to free range and organic chicken and eggs because they taste better.
What is your logic behind being vegetarian?
And what’s a “knucledragger”?

Luther says:

09:46am | 21/01/11

Newsflash: Animals will not care if you have died. In fact quite a few wouldn’t mind nomming on your corpse.

Been to those farms, don’t care and still love my meat. You’re not better, nor more enlightened because you choose to restrict your diet.

braunman says:

10:07am | 21/01/11

@Tim

It’s a kind of sandwich made from pork scratchings, boiled cabbage and blue cheese. Your milage may vary on the taste.

Mr GG says:

10:56am | 21/01/11

Dylan, I have no problem being eaten by animals (especially if I’m already dead) I Was alive but have become meat, Use my meat to keep your self alive. it is the circle of life.
Honestly if given the option I would choose to have my remains feed to Crocs or some other large predator than can actually consume our bones and us completely.
I have No Problem with this, It is Life since before the crocodile let alone before humans were given life.

Kirsten says:

08:38am | 21/01/11

+1

Since when are fish plants?
Last time I looked it up fish were still animals, which means if you eat them (or any seafood) you aren’t vegetarian.

The Badger says:

08:51am | 21/01/11

vegetarians don’t eat fish.
They eat vegetables.
People who eat fish and declare themselves vegetarian are very confused.

Meryl says:

09:08am | 21/01/11

@Badger, I agree, just pointing it out.  You’d be surprised how often I’ve heard that though - “I’m vegetarian, oohh, look, they have salmon on the menu!”

Tim says:

09:20am | 21/01/11

They’re called vegequarians.

Meryl says:

10:03am | 21/01/11

@Tim, it’s not whether they eat fish or not, it’s the reasons.  You can’t say ‘I don’t eat cow/sheep/pig/chook because it’s cruel” and then eat fish and think the conscience is clean.

I’d like a vegequarian out there to tell me the difference between refusing to eat a cow because it’s a living creature, but eating a fish is ok?  If it’s a taste thing, I understand that, but if it’s a moral thing, help me out.

Chris says:

10:24am | 21/01/11

Fish don’t have any feelings - Kurt Cobain.

Jim says:

11:17am | 21/01/11

It’s cause fish don’t have eyebrows Meryl, and therefore cannot make a face of “WTF!!!!” as the knife slips in…it’s a conscience thing.

Jane says:

08:38pm | 21/01/11

I refuse to eat deep ocean fish on spiritual grounds, especially ones like the Pink Roughie who are dead before they reach the surface because their brain has exploded with the pressure change. I think that is a far more painful death for a fish than suffocation. I have almost suffocated and didnt find it painful, scary yes but not painful so I figure for a fish it would be the same.

Laura says:

12:45pm | 24/01/11

Jane - I think you mean orange roughy, not pink?

Stephy says:

08:15am | 25/01/11

Only time I know someone who claimed vegeterianism then ate fish was the boss, and he called himself vegetaring including fish because he’s a Jew and fish don’t have to have their blood drained.

Francis says:

09:32am | 21/01/11

Ahh bugger.

I am thinking about stopping being a vegetarian so I’m not associated with people who would dramatically change their eating habits because of a few trolls on a forum.

julia says:

10:45am | 21/01/11

while you’re doing that maybe think of getting a sense of humour too.

The Badger says:

08:53am | 21/01/11

Sorry,
what are the natural predators for cattle in Australia?

Macca says:

09:06am | 21/01/11

@The Badger, Crocs, Dingos, Tassie Tigers. I’m sure the odd scavenger bird could do quite well with a cow carcus. Not natural predators, obviously, as the cow is introduced. But that doesn’t mean they’d be free to dominate the Australian landscape free from predators

Kimikaze says:

09:39am | 21/01/11

The captive bolt is actually delivered to the front of the head, FYI.

Farmer says:

09:43am | 21/01/11

@ Badger - old cows lie down and then maybe a fox or two and a feral pig or five will feast their greedy, sneaky little eyes and teeth on the (hopefully) now carcass.

If she isn’t a carcass at this stage, then (all you sooky vego’s can turn away) it’s a slow, tortuous, piece-by-piece, savage, filleting, slicing, gorging, mutilating death.

If you are in the Daintree, then it’s crocodile rock-n-roll all the way.

Naivety spoils a good debate.

The Badger says:

10:19am | 21/01/11

Fair enough crocs.
The rest are scavengers who will eat the dead and already dying.

So all the cattle south of the tropics are safe to live in peace without being chased as dinner.

Chris says:

10:30am | 21/01/11

hang on, what!? isn’t the point that the food is specifically bred?! We’re not out picking up random cows in the wild! If we didn’t bred them for food, we wouldn’t need to kill them! - what a weird argument.

Mr GG says:

12:35pm | 21/01/11

@The Badger
Big Problem the Cow is not Natural and not part of Any Native Environment.
Humans domesticated them from an Animal called the Auroch. which is now extinct. If you are talking about Australia then you have to take into account the massive extinctions caused by Aboriginals when they start Fire hunting wiping out all the broad-leaf forest in Australia which the Big herbivores feed on (there were wombats close to the size of Rhinos) and the large predators that feed on them, the Sabre tooth Lion (not tiger) was a marsupial predators the size of modern lions and there were Goanna like Lizards over 6 metres long. They only lack Predators in Australia because Humans already made them extinct.

here are some examples,
http://sosnews.org/uploads/images/noeline/mega-fauna1.jpg

http://interspeciesconflict.blogspot.com/2009/11/thylacoleo-carnifex-vs-panthera-leo.html

Matt says:

12:51pm | 21/01/11

The Badger, crows will pick the eyes out of still-living farmstock. Goannas will even have a go. No farming cattle means no farmers. Cattle will not be dipped, and so will die of worms, infections from blight and being fly-blown, the list goes on. Don’t presume to think they will have a better life in the wild (albeit a potentially longer life).

baal says:

02:34pm | 21/01/11

@the badger,
We are the natural predators for cattle in australia.
Also humans breed cattle from a now extinct animal, however humans have also made cows, sheep, etc some of the most successful species to ever walk the earth.
There is nothing but nature, everything a human does is natural, it is just some people are too weak to face up to their natures.

Der says:

03:27pm | 21/01/11

Sorry,
what are the natural predators for cattle in Australia?

Humans.

Tim says:

08:22am | 21/01/11

Alex,
most of the grain fed to cows is not fit for human consumption so the argument that it could be used to feed starving people is wrong.
Although I do agree that the food industry probably could do with more controls and we should cut our total meat consumption.
For a good book on this subject, I suggest people read Simon Fairlie’s book - Meat, A Benign Extravagance.

Alex says:

08:47am | 21/01/11

@Tim, But the land used to grow the grain could be used to grow different kinds of grain, or other fruit and vegetables. I’ll check out the book, thanks. Another one is The Ethics of What We Eat, by Peter Singer and Jim Mason.

And of course, check out Food Inc. What a great documentary!

AdamC says:

10:30am | 21/01/11

” ... we should cut our total meat consumption.”

Why?

Ducks says:

11:04am | 21/01/11

@ Alex, “But the land used to grow the grain could be used to grow different kinds of grain, or other fruit and vegetables”
Actually, it usually can’t. Feed grainsgrown are not the most profitable crops. They are often grown becasue they are usually more resilient and survive adverse weather conditions better- so even in a drought year the farmer can get some income. Most farmers will grow a mix, and usually put feed grain in the areas that wont produce a suitable crop. Feed grain is often also grain that is grown for human consumption, but did not meet the standards.
Other non-grain crops are usually more water intensive and require irrigation/ guaranteed high rainfall- a luxury many farms don’t have.

Tim says:

11:23am | 21/01/11

Adam C,
I’m a meat eater and proud.
I do however realise there are environmental and health concerns with the amount of meat eaten in this country. Higher diversification of our diets would be beneficial in many ways.
Anyway, all of this talk about cows has made me hungry, time to go get a nice juicy burger for lunch.

Farmer says:

11:33am | 21/01/11

@ Alex - there’s an opening at NIDA for you as well and I doubt Andrew will miss a teaspoon of concrete that you both so obviously need.

“if people ate less meat, it would be much easier to feed the world.
” ???????  What a load of nonsense! “The pollution and waste from the meat industry is the biggest of any human industry - far bigger than aviation”?????  The tall stories just get better and better!

Did you make this stuff up? Is the “pollution” from the meat industry worse because you might be able to “see” it whereas the aviation industry pollutes in nether regions (and invisibly) where people with their heads up their a##*s can’t/ or won’t look?

How very insulting you & Andrew are to suggest that farmers should “Raise the animals properly and carefully, feed them the correct food, treat them with respect”. Because it makes so much sense to abuse the very source of our income, doesn’t it?

There is no excuse for ignorance. Talk to a real farmer and get the facts. If I abuse and disrespect my livestock, then I lose money. It is ignorant people like you who perpetuate the myth that farmers are all stinking bloody rich and spend their time thinking of ways to rape and pillage the land they work their backsides off to pay for.

Countrygirl says:

12:02pm | 21/01/11

Um having lived on a farm, Cows do eat grain.  They also eat hay, silage, corn, cottonseed etc…

Jo says:

06:50pm | 22/01/11

Alex is right - cows should be eating grass, not grain.  Cows eating grass locks up carbon in the soil and improves soil fertility.

Unfortunately humans can’t digest grass so we can’t just eat that instead.  If we were to try and grow vegetables or year in and year out on that bit of land we would need to (artificially) fertilise it to buggery, destroying it in the process. OR grow vegetable food in a sustainable way by utilising animal manure produced in the immediate vicinity.

So let the cows eat the grass and the humans eat the cows.  Happy days.  Grass fed beef is a healthy, delicious, and environmentally sustainable food! The feed-lot antibiotic fed supermarket meat most people eat is definitly not.
(FYI I raise and butcher my own meat)

TChong says:

08:30am | 21/01/11

“Why bury back animals in your body ? “- Mary what the hell you talking about .?
The sentence like any alledged “science ” that is attatched to it, doesnt make sense.
Why is eating meat “burying ” it, and eatinfg veges isnt “burying” tubers or legumes in your body?

mary says:

10:20am | 21/01/11

TChong, you’re absolutely right. With both meat and vegs we’re burying. The only difference is that with vegs we’re fertilising, with meat we’ve become a walking graveyard.

hermes says:

02:26pm | 21/01/11

never thought I’d ever agree with you TChong…well, there’s always a first. “Burying” meat, what utter and total twaddle, without the slightest smidgen of scientific accuracy. Reminds me of a horoscope in this week’s edition of the Onion;  “Learn to trust your heart. No one ever grew spiritually as a person by doing what the numbers and the science clearly indicate they should do.”.

marley says:

07:48am | 22/01/11

With meat we’re becoming a walking graveyard?  What, are you saying that because meat was once alive, we’re entombing it in our bodies by eating it?  So how is that any different from eating a vegetable that was just as alive, if not quite as active, as the steer?  And don’t give me some nonsense about fertilizer - all sorts of things can fertilize the ground, certainly including animal matter.

oh stop it says:

09:58am | 21/01/11

i choose not to kill them too. i choose to buy pre-killed animal at the butcher, it’s more convenient

marley says:

08:23am | 22/01/11

I have no problem with people choosing to be vegetarian or vegan or whatever.  My issue is with people preaching their superiority to, or sneering at,  those who make different choices.  That goes for those on both sides of the dietary fence.

By the way,  Sarah is not correct about vegetarianism being a luxury only westerners can afford.  Rather a lot of Indians are vegetarians.  Hindus and Jains, for example.

AdamC says:

08:45am | 21/01/11

Samuel, people are capable of both good and evil. We are unique among the creatures of the earth in that respect.

However, the author is totally wrong about cruelty being uniquely human. Hasn’t he ever seen a cat toy with a mouse?

Mr GG says:

12:49pm | 21/01/11

Humans are Not Unique.
If you think that you just haven’t spent enough time with animals. they are just as capable of Love and Cruelty as humans.
A Dolphin may lead a stranded sailor to shore that same dolphin may then go a rape another dolphin for pleasure. Fully capable of good and evil. By trying to Belittle Humans you are simplifying and underestimating nature. I respect we are no more than animals our selves.

Even amongst plants there are those that bare food and those that bare poison. Those that create shelter and those that strangle other plants.

AdamC says:

03:19pm | 21/01/11

Mr GG, you are attributing human motives to creatures that don’t possess them and puting your own interpretation onto them. Again, there is only one species that does that.

And I used the terms good and evil for a reason. I wasn’t arguing that animals don’t have emotions.

Jamie says:

08:59am | 21/01/11

Hahahahahaha. Pithy!

hermes says:

02:41pm | 21/01/11

yes, apart from people with life threatening diseases or drug addicts; the unhealthiest-looking people I have ever seen are vegans; pasty, pimply, pale and skinny, with no muscle definition and no energy, probably due to iron and other vitamin deficiencies…

Nomeat says:

10:24am | 21/01/11

@Belle
Australia highly regulated? Rubbish.

Go to savebabe.com.

We keep pigs for months in tiny stalls, a practise banned across Europe.

Australians should be ashamed.

baal says:

02:17pm | 21/01/11

Yes he should really harden up. We are top level predators (and yes as someone who has hunted and killed thier own prey I am comfortable with my predator status) and tool builders, we know just combined our blood lust with machines, get over pussy cat.

Macca says:

09:15am | 21/01/11

fatalberton says:08:48am | 21/01/11
“I won’t validate any of your comments with a direct response.”

fatalberton says:08:51am | 21/01/11
wtf would Richard Attenborough know about dietary requirements???

I think your meat-based diet has given you cancer of the brain.”

“Your health does not suffer on a vego/vegan diet if you understand what you are doing”.

Apparently your ability to stick to a decision may be impacted however…

Tim says:

09:34am | 21/01/11

“Anyone concerned about climate change and/or third-world poverty can make a personal commitment to ending both through becoming a vegan (or at least a vegetarian).”
How?

Rev says:

10:14am | 21/01/11

Tim.  Clearly the carbon produced by grilling steaks on the bbq is causing an excessive amount of greenhouse gases to collect in some part of the atmosphere which ultimately has realigned the star signs so I am no longer a Gemini but Taurus.

A tasty, chargrilled Taurus.

baal says:

02:27pm | 21/01/11

Even with dirt they are still going to slaughter billions of little animals, every time they take a dump into a sanitised toliet they slaughter over 25000 species of flora and fauna, every time they breathe thier immune systems kills a thousand intruders, when they walk becareful they do not step on a bug, it is estimated the average houseliving human will swallow a dozen spiders in their life while they sleep.
Life feeds in life, feeds on life, this is needed.

Shelley says:

10:22am | 21/01/11

I’m sorry to burst your bubble James but have you ever looked inside the mouth of a Tiger? You will actually find out teeth have far more in common with a regular herbivore.

James Hunter says:

12:29pm | 21/01/11

Shelly, I suggest you revisit Biology 1.1
A little bit of ignorance goes a long way.

Syl says:

12:30pm | 21/01/11

Except of course Shelley, Tigers are carnivores not omnivores like us.  Comparing apples to oranges does not an argument make.

Donnybrook Gal says:

10:49am | 21/01/11

I have happy childhood memories of helping Granpa slaughter sheep. Sheep that were raised in an old fashioned grass eating, paddock kind of way. Freerange, paddock reared animals for me and my kitchen, thanks.

baal says:

01:36pm | 21/01/11

i grew up on a farm too and my first job was on the slaughterhouse floor.
I was not scarred for life, I am just aware that humans are part of nature and killing is a normal part of life.
I am disturbed by the likes of the writer of this article, domesticated humans that are so far from their true natures, they are like housecats, well taken care of but otherwise useless.
To qoute jack from 30 Rock, “in a post apocolyptic world how exactly would you be usefull”

Amanda says:

10:22am | 21/01/11

I’m a cheerful meat-eater, but I wn’t eat anything I’d keep as a pet. That includes cats, dogs and horses. Having said that, there are cultures where these animals aren’t kept as pets and they’re a legitimate food source. who are we to say they shouldn’t eat them?

Julia says:

10:11am | 21/01/11

totally agree Farmer! To Andrew; toughin up princess!!! as a country girl as well, im so sick of ultra-Politically correct, idealist, soft city kids. it’s interesting that the only exposure this author has had to the killing of animals is watching some movie, and probably reading the odd bleeding heart article now and then.
go back to the animal play-pen at your local supermarket Andrew, that’s obviously the only exposure with animals that your precious clean hands can deal with!

Just Sayin' says:

05:44pm | 21/01/11

That’s the irony. Most of the animals we eat are humanely treated and most of the animals we don’t eat experience agonising deaths.

Markus says:

10:25am | 21/01/11

I must admit, it is extremely satisfying to respond to that accusation with an in-depth description of the process and the part I have played in it, topping it all off with another bite of my fillet steak burger (with egg and bacon, of course) as I walk away.

baal says:

02:07pm | 21/01/11

When I was young I grew up on a farm, I have hunted and trapped animals and I also worked in both a commercial abottoir plus the local butchers. I have literally herded the cows in the fields and then minced the same beasts at the local butchers.
I have no trouble with meat, I have seen nature, red in tooth and claw and I am just part of that.
I will be suprised if a vego responds to happy animal killing humans,
domesticated humans are the worst.

Kate says:

06:22pm | 21/01/11

My dad also worked in an abbatoir for a while to put himself through uni. He eats more meat now than ever, and enjoys giving the detailed description of its origins.

HappyCynic says:

02:55pm | 21/01/11

Haha the zombies will get them first

Those brains sweet and small, delicate and light (from lack of use), the soft supple rumps, marbled with fat, the overinflated livers expanded due to its failed attempts to digest that grain…

*drools* braaaaiiiins

ibast says:

10:43am | 21/01/11

Chicken is a vegetable

Pete says:

11:08am | 21/01/11

How ludicrous.  The accidental massacre of the odd rodent vs the systematic battery caging of pigs, cows and chickens (yes - pigs and cows are battery farmed too) is hardly a valid comparison.  “Billions of animals” killed this way?  As they say on Wikipedia - [citation needed].

Gregg says:

11:45am | 21/01/11

At least you know now why grains, vegetables and fruits all need to be well washed, though that don’t get rid of some good red ingredients in the Cabernet or Shiraz if you have ever wondered why some are on the heavier side.
Nothing like your bloods worth bottling eh!

And even some of those Semillions and Chardies often have a pinky tinge and nothing about Chongy’s confusion.

George Morgan says:

11:53am | 21/01/11

@Sahara

That’s not a good argument.

Most of the grains harvested in the world are grown to feed livestock, which are then eaten by people. This takes a lot of grain, because, for example, for every 1kg of meat protein you get from a cow, you have to feed it 15kg of vegetable protein.

So, again, the way to minimise cruelty is to be vegetarian or vegan.

Sahara, you of course know this, because you’ve posted your flimsy argument on many other vegetarian blogs through the years. And I’ve always posted this reply, for which you have no decent answer.

Funny how some people just don’t want to learn eh?

And funny how your name echoes the desertification that will result if man continues to farm livestock the way he does.

Tim says:

12:51pm | 21/01/11

George,
“Most of the grains harvested in the world are grown to feed livestock, which are then eaten by people”
Source please.
Most of the grain fed to livestock is not suitable for human consumption, so what are you going to do with this grain if not feed it to animals?
And what does feeding livestock grain have to do with animal cruelty? They are completely separate issues.

Sahara says:

01:17pm | 21/01/11

Well George, despite your wild and unsupported claims the obvious flaw in your theory is the if we all become vegetarians then what do we eat instead of meat? I’d suggest probably grain meaning we’d have to grow more and more of it to feed humans. This means more and more animals suffering at the hands of the vegos.

Anyway your reply in no way negates what I wrote in the fist place so the reason I never reply is more than likely that your supposed answer is just plain dumb.

At least when we kill our animals for food we make sure they’re dead and don’t just leave them there in agony. I don;t know how you vegos can support such cruel farming methods you heartless b@stards.

George Morgan says:

03:43pm | 21/01/11

Sahara I’ll explain it to you very simply.

Livestock for food is a wasteful process, requiring vast amounts of crops to feed the animals we then eat.

If we took the animals out of the equation, and fed crops directly to humans, we would need to grow a much smaller amount of crops.

Smaller crops would mean less harvesting, and a smaller impact on those field animals you claim to be so worried about.

But you’re not listening because you don’t want to listen. Go and read ‘‘The Ethics of what we Eat’’. Beware, it will defeat all your simplistic, self-serving arguments.

Just Sayin' says:

07:23pm | 21/01/11

George, how can it be considered wasteful when it produces meat?  Inefficient maybe, but the grain is not wasted, it is used.

Judge Holden says:

01:38pm | 22/01/11

@ George Morgan -  You’re assuming that all beef is grain fed, when in reality most Australian beef is grass fed on perennial pastures, herbs which are mostly unsuitable for human consumption. 

Modern broiler chickens have a feed conversion rate of around 1.7kg of feed grain to 1kg of weight. Given that this grain hasn’t met the requirements for human consumption this is a fairly efficient conversion into a protein suitable for consumption. And these chickens are not farmed in battery cages but in open span, climate controlled barns. Most people who actually see the conditions in which they live their lives (albeit brief lives) would be surprised at the level of comfort.

I’ve read many of the books recommended by you and others in this forum and they are essentially all one sided. If you believe that killing animals for meat is unethical then that is your choice. I kill my own and don’t have any ethical concern with it. This is not due to my ignorance, quite the opposite, I have listened intently to every side of the debate and come to the conclusion that slaughter and meat is a very natural process and an important one for human nutrition.

As the world has moved from agrarian to urban, people have become very isolated from the production of food. For some this means they are ignorant of it, for others, such as yourself, it means that they have become horrified by the thought of slaughter. This mass urbanisation is the principle reason for the rise of industral agriculture. Given this, a vegetarian diet would actually be no better for the environment than one including meat, nor would it would mean the lives of animals would be any better.

Clarise says:

01:40pm | 22/01/11

@Sahara: Stupid girl… the amount of grains and plants used to feed livestock in Western Countries is enough to wipe out poverty in Third World Countries. Most of the grains you see being grown is being fed to none other than the animals you will consume.

Alison says:

10:51am | 21/01/11

A bit of a wide assertion.  I am vegetarian (I also posted earlier).  In addition to not eating meat or it’s by-products, I don’t kill insects unless strictly neccesary (ie a redback on my arm).  I teach my kids that it’s not ok to kill an ant because you feel like it.  I too am baffled by people who aren’t consistent in this regard.

LC says:

10:55am | 21/01/11

I hope he’s never boiled water either (kills germs). Yeah, bacteria have a right to life too!

marley says:

08:40am | 22/01/11

I lived in India for a while, so I’ve had my share of excellent vegetarian meals.  I’ve also had my share of excellent meals with fish, meat or poultry.  There’s nothing wrong with choosing to be a vegetarian or vegan, but I don’t believe there’s anything ethically wrong with making other choices either.  And, as you say, good food is good food.

Salad Head says:

11:40am | 21/01/11

Intelligence level = 0
Annoyance level =9
Selfish level     =10

Congratulations we have a winner!

Pete says:

12:01pm | 21/01/11

Before being Vegan I had infact dined on Argentinian steak, in Buenos Aires along with a veritable feast of other incredible meats.  I’ve eaten king tiger prawns the size of a banana from the waters of Malaysia, the most delicious kangaroo from a top restaurant in Adelaide, and spanish chorizos that at the time had me salivating for days.

I don’t even remotely miss it.

Nor do I find raw carrot or a stick of broccoli mouth watering. 

To suggest that vegans find raw carrots and sticks of broccoli the pinicle of our cuisine choice would be the same as me suggesting that I don’t eat meat because I don’t like chicken necks, pig’s feet, tripe or mutton. 

You wanker.

neil says:

12:17pm | 21/01/11

There are two types of vegans, those dying from diabetes and those dying from starvation. They just don’t all know it yet. And parents that force a vegan diet on children should be charged with child abuse and there children should be placed in state care for their own well being.

Humans and all the great apes eat animal protein, chimpanzees hut monkeys and sometimes pray as large as pigs, gorillas and orangutans eat insects, it is impossible to develop and maintain a large brain without it.

Sir Ronald Bradnam says:

12:26pm | 21/01/11

hahahahahaha salad head, thanks for that I will wear that like a badge of honour and pete dont take it so personally in a lot of ways vegans are like religious fanatics they think that their way is the right and only way.
off to japan in a couple of months so if you can recommend some good whale sushi bars it would be much appreciated.

Salad head says:

01:28pm | 21/01/11

Case in point

If you are not more open to the vegetarian/vegan way of life then I think you just labelled yourself like a religious fanatic.

But to be honest, I think Neil just piped you at the post so you will have to happy with second.

Neil, I believe the widely publicised case last year of a child that died due to starvation in fact had omnivorous parents. Sooo, just following your logic, all omnivorousness parents should also be charged with
child abuse?

And, just so you know, vegans and vegetarians have a lower risk of diabetes, but I guess that is just a minor detail.

I suggest trying to beat your primate instincts for a second to consider you food choices? I like to think we have developed the power of reason. Well some of us anyway.

Pete says:

01:39pm | 21/01/11

Vegan fanatics are as annoying and brainless as meat fanatics.  I have no illusions that my choices are the only choices for anyone, nor necessarily the right choices.  It works for me, it makes logical sense (to me), and if you want to chow down on whale blubber and be comfortable in the fact that you’ve contributed to the demand for japanese whaling, good luck to you. 

@niel I’m niether, and the last medical report I got would put me in a third category of healthy vegan.  Almost all monkeys are onmivores, with the vast majority of their diet being vegetable base.  Gorilla’s have an almost exclusively vegetable based (by volume) with the exception being insects and invertibrates.  Your parenting comments are just trolling - go back to 4chan where you belong.

neil says:

03:26pm | 21/01/11

Salad head, not true people that eat high levels of saturated fats and cholesterol have a high risk of diabetes, so don’t eat bacon and eggs every day.  People who have a low protein high carbohydrate diet, i.e. vegans are equally suseptable to diabetes. The power of reason has nothing to do with it a vegan diet is as an equally unhealthy choice as junk food.

Vegans are dead people walking.

Sir Ronald Bradnam says:

05:42pm | 21/01/11

neil, vegans are dead boring people walking I truly believe that lack of animal protein adds somehow to their lack of personality and removes most of their commonsense and reasoning gland in their grey matter. Havent met a vegan yet who could hold a rational conversation for longer than about 7 seconds, just look at some of the coments on this article, i rest my case.

neil says:

08:50pm | 21/01/11

Sir Ronald Bradnam . I totally agree,vegan’s are usually in a lack of protein stupa as if they are severely dehydrated or smoking dope. Just lying about waiting to die.

An watched interesting BBC doco last week about how diet made us hunman. I didn’t like the analogy but they put 10 people on a raw fruit and veg diet for 14 days. Everyones digestive systems ceased to process food by day 4. The medical staff stopped the experiment at day 7 because of concerns about their liver function.

Humans cannot exist for more than a few weeks without digestable protein. Digestable protein comes fron animals or cooking vegitables.

I doubt hominids worked out how to cook vegitation before they had a big animal protein brain. And they only did it through desperation as a poor second option.

Sir Ronald Bradnam says:

09:43am | 22/01/11

dont get the anti whaling lobby and associated hysteria that surrounds it, surely there are enough whales to eat and watch ( I will report back after japan trip on favourite way of eating whalemeat and whether the blue whale or the minke is the most delicious)
@neil, couldnt agree more with your rational well thought out commentary and opinion, would you like me to smuggle some whalemeat back through customs for you to try.

Jo says:

07:51pm | 22/01/11

Don’t worry Sir Ronald, we won’t have to round them up and sterilize them, the vegans and vegos (and meat eaters who drink the stuff too) are all poisoning themselves with soy milk - they are doing a good job of wiping themselves out on that alone…
Its just a pity that Soy is also destroying the Brazilian Amazon.
There should be a soy tax to cope with the medical burden later in life when their thyroids are failing because of the isoflavones in soy milk, they are malnourished due to the phytates (and other anti-nutrients) in soy blocking mineral absorption, and when the hemagglutinin has made all their red blood cells clump together leading to poor cardiac health becacuse their blood cannot absorb oxygen….

Lettuce Head says:

11:38am | 21/01/11

Intelligence level = 0

Joel B1 says:

12:19pm | 21/01/11

Especially those bastards cats that eat my free-range Guinea Pigs that only do good and stop me having to mow my grass using shit-loads of CO2 releasing fossil-fuels.

Lettuce Head says:

11:36am | 21/01/11

How about you provide a reason for once, rather than vegetarians constantly having to justify their decisions.

Considering:

1 You don’t need to eat meat for any nutritional purpose
2 eating red met has been directly linked to both colon and bowel cancer
3 it is one of the most environmentally damaging industries in the world
-i won’t provide details but assume, as you have made a comment, you have done the research
4 the practices that are inherent in the commercial meat industry are inherently cruel

How is it possible to justify eating meat when you know all these things.

NB. ‘You eat met because it tastes good’ is not a sufficient answer. That would confirm everyone’s suspicions that you, and most people commenting here, are inherently selfish

Markus says:

12:09pm | 21/01/11

@Lettuce Head, hate to break it to you, but everyone is inherently selfish, it stems from our most base instinct of self-preservation.

‘You eat met because it tastes good’ is a perfectly sufficient answer, just not by your moral standards.
If you have ever taken offense at being judged by someone else’s moral standards (religious or otherwise), but continue to do so yourself, then you are simply a hypocrite.

Wayne Kerr says:

12:11pm | 21/01/11

Lettuce Head,

Meat does taste good
Meat is nutritous
Growing veges to feed the masses would require lots of water and land.
Vegetarians get cancer too
I personally don’t buy into the whole “plants have feelings too” but have you seen the way they cram them in rows and put shit on them and leave them out in the hot hot sun? Then they even spray inseciticide on them..OMG!! (we all know insecticides are great for the environment).

You prefer to be a vegetarian for what ever reasons and thats fine but I don’t think us meat eaters have to justify our preference either.

Lettuce head says:

12:30pm | 21/01/11

Vegetarianism has not been LINKED to cancer
Yes, meat is nutritious, but linked to cancer and you don’t need to eat it
Every kg of meat requires between 20000-100000 litres of water - a kg of veggies does not.
Do you not think the feed that cattle eat is not also sprayed with insecticide?
But I agree, the lest pesticides the better.

Markus-I might be a hypocrite if I was indeed making a moral or religious judgement, I am however, using the power of rationality, and am not being driven by my taste buds.

I do also believe that it is possible to sustain oneself without being selfish.

Tim says:

01:20pm | 21/01/11

Lettuce Head,
it sounds like you’ve been fed a load of tripe.
1.Meat is very nutritious. Of course it isn’t necessary to eat it, but it is easier. Diversity of diet is the best.
2.Yes eating lots of red meat is linked to Cancer. I have no problem with this. Moderation is the key. Also, you do realise that not all meat is red?
3.This is bullshit. There are environmental concerns with livestock farming but these can be addressed through more sustainable farming practices. i assume you use electricity, drive a car? Better stop then.
4.How? certain farming practices are cruel, we should aim to eliminate them but this is not an argument against eating meat..
Also your 20000-100000 litres of water per kg of meat is pure bullshit. This figure is often bandied about but it includes rainfall falling on pasture and grains that cattle graze on. No water is lost, it simply travels back through the water cycle.
Don’t eat meat if you don’t want to, but you are definitely not morally superior by not eating meat.

LC says:

05:20pm | 21/01/11

@ Lettuce head

So I guess, in your case, the answer to my question is yes.

Thank you Wayne Kerr and Tim for saving me half an hour typing out a justification for my dietary choice to him. Oh, and to add to your points Tim, if he’s so concerned about the environment he shouldn’t be using a computer either, as gram-for-gram it’s the most polluting item in your house due to the manufacturing process.

Sir Ronald Bradnam says:

11:22am | 21/01/11

linda McCartney vego, cancer, rest my case

Cloud Strife says:

12:03pm | 21/01/11

I’m pretty sure v*gans can get heart diseases, too.

CK says:

11:55am | 21/01/11

Thanks Ange, well said. Either way its all about individual awareness and choice.

Markus says:

11:59am | 21/01/11

While Aussie farmers continue to work towards breeds of merino that naturally do not grow fleece on their behinds, mulesing and tail docking are the most effective way of preventing flystrike, which is a hell of a lot more agonising than the short term pain of either of these procedures.

Both the RSPCA and the Australian Veterinary Association, while promoting development of new methods, admit that mulesing is by far the most effective method known.

LC says:

07:38pm | 21/01/11

Have you seen what can happen to sheep which do not get mulesed? It’s not pretty, and I doubt the animal would be having the time of it’s life either. If a better alternative is found then that’s excellent, but until then…

Amanda says:

12:46pm | 21/01/11

Very well said, im glad some people are getting it.

Luther says:

01:07pm | 21/01/11

Seriously? SERIOUSLY?

Once upon a time, a loooong time ago, humans learnt what animals were good for comfort/companionship/jobs and what were good to eat/breed for farming. Go look at some ancient sketchings/heiroglyphs sometime. It wasn’t some kind of pot luck situation where they just picked which one should be which, you breed up a cow or sheep you get lots of nice tasting meat - a cat or dog they probably TRIED, but realised it was tough and gamey and just not worth the trouble, plus those nifty cats got rid of rodents which meant less disease, and dogs went out and assisted with hunting etc. They had a purpose!

I’m not even going to touch the aliens analogy, that just fell into a new level of stupid I could not be bothered with.

Chris says:

02:07pm | 21/01/11

haha.. well I’m glad, Luther, that you won’t touch the abstract aliens analogy, as whatever you touched on prior to that had absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote. - Sounds like someone needs some decent vegies in their diet - Good day, sir.

baal says:

02:46pm | 21/01/11

If aliens came to earth and slaughtered us we would fight back, if we lost then it would be part of the natural cycle.
For all you know maybe we are a big cage farm just waiting to be harvested.
Life is joy and life is suffering. We give life to animals that would otherwise never exist, look after them with a kindness no other predator on earth has ever shown, we kill them, eat thier flesh and grind thier bones for other uses.
Plants suffer too, it is just becuase thier suffering so different to yours that you do not care, you lack of empathy is disgusting

Luther says:

03:00pm | 21/01/11

You asked a question putting to the general internet how how would you feel if your pet was treated like mass-produced meat. Look at your punctuation.

It was a question, I answered on how ridiculous it is to pose that question at all. Next time, don’t ask the question, even if it rhetorical!

MarvinM says:

03:11pm | 21/01/11

@Chris

I have been to Peru and eaten the local delicacy, Furry hampster/guinea pig on a stick. What is a cute furry pet to some is a tasty delicious and nourising meal to others. So what was your point about pets again?

I havent been to China yet though i hear they enjoy a big steaming hotpot of Canine meat.

Just because to some people an animal is a cute furry pet doesnt exempt it to as food to others.

Chris says:

02:20pm | 22/01/11

@ baal, if it became part of the natural cycle, you’d still be pretty pissed regardless. You’d want to be at least treated in a humane way if that scenario was the case, which is the point I’m making. Also, the gift of life isn’t much of a gift when you’re a battery hen, for example. If you were in the same situation I’d bet you’d wish you were never born. - If you can show me evidence that plants suffer, then I’m all ears and will stand corrected. As far as I’m aware plants don’t have a nervous system or brain to interpret pain nor capable of consciously understanding their environment, therefore I don’t consider killing plants or growing them in mass-production to be inhumane.

Chris says:

02:21pm | 22/01/11

@ Luther, I didn’t realise your response was in relation to that question. Fair enough, but I’m not talking about history, I’m talking about empathy and evolution. Treatment of animals (regardless of what type).

Chris says:

02:22pm | 22/01/11

@ MarvinM, I understand that people have different opinions on what constitutes a cute pet, whether it’s a cute fluffy bunny rabbit or a 10 meter crocodile. That’s not what I was saying. A pet (regardless of what animal) to someone is something that has an emotional attachment involved, so I was drawing upon people that may look differently on how animals are treated if you replaced a battery chicken with their pet. i.e. - you wouldn’t want your pet treated that way, so why should you treat other animals that way.

Chris says:

03:34pm | 22/01/11

And to add… I really don’t understand the argument that eating vegetables is also cruel. As if people that are vegetarians have just as much to answer for. - I thought about this strange argument for a bit and realised what is going on. People that are so convinced that everything is okay with the way out meat is farmed tend to have some outrageous and logically flawed arguments. The reason for that is, at their fundamental core they know what is going on is wrong. However, they present crazy arguments to try and convince themselves that it’s all fine; so now they can sit down and eat that juicy steak and have no guilt or moral objections. What’s that river in Egypt called again?

Diana says:

03:42pm | 22/01/11

Rock on, DH. Reading through the comments is cracking me up. The whole ‘fact’ of ‘you need meat to survive’ makes me wonder how you and I have made it so long without flesh in our diets! How do we get through our days after gym sessions or carrying heavy loads or, heaven forbid, walking places with our precious little plant-powered energy. I kind of like being the fact that proves stupid meat-eaters wrong. I believe everyone makes the best choice that they know to make at the time. For some it will never be to be vegetarian. That’s ok. Being vego is my choice and I don’t lord it over anyone but wow, some of these meat-eaters do!

I happen to have amazing friends. Most of them meat eaters who make very conscious choices with the meat they eat and how much and how often they eat it and there has never been an issue with whether they or I eat meat or not. Often I’ll notice when there is a group of friends out to dinner, how many of my friends will order vegetarian menu items, simply because that’s what appealed to them at the time.

So to the meat eaters making all the silly arguments (not all of you, just the silly ones), get over yourselves and have a think about the adage ‘live and let live’.

jf says:

03:35pm | 21/01/11

What do they call someone who doesn’t eat me or vegetables?

Yasmin says:

12:45am | 22/01/11

A plant isn’t a conscious being with the capability to feel pain and emotions.

marley says:

08:51am | 22/01/11

@Yasmin - well, I haven’t met too many emotional oysters, either.

Yasmin says:

01:30pm | 22/01/11

@Marley: *Sighs* An oyster is a species of mollusc which has ganglia instead of a nervous system and no brain. No brain means no pain and no emotion. Did you fail biology at school or are you just trying to be funny?

marley says:

06:34pm | 22/01/11

No, I didn’t fail biology. In fact, I did rather well at it. 

You’ve tried to argue that it’s ok to eat plants but not animals on the grounds that the former lack, and the latter all possess, the capacity to feel pain and emotions. So, since we both agree there are animals that don’t have those capacities, why shouldn’t we eat them?

Markus says:

01:46pm | 21/01/11

Damn, I was fine to eat meat up until the crying kids part.
What if the kids are actually enjoying being included in the entire process rather than accusing you of murder, does that mean the deal is off and I can’t have my meat?

fish says:

03:24pm | 21/01/11

No Markus, if they enjoy it too much take them to a psychiatrist

john says:

03:49pm | 21/01/11

@Keith Hammersmith, so the moral of the story is kill everything and eat it and don’t play with your food. Just like the japanese do with whale hunting for research purposes, they should eat it instead of going to waste

Keith Hammersmith says:

05:02pm | 21/01/11

yes, we dont hassle the norwegians for whaling.  we dont hassle the native alaskans,  we dont hassle aboriginals for killing and eating sea turtles and dugongs. 
Who exactly are we to tell people what they can or cant do - when they have been doing it for centuries.. 
different cultures are different.

I like whales,  i dont eat them,  in india they think the same about cows… 
but i wouldnt think they would have much right telling me not to eat beef - you get my drift?

Louise says:

12:38am | 22/01/11

That’s very easy for you to say because you KNEW that those animals were humanely raised and humanely slaughtered. Unfortunately that isn’t the case for most of the animals vaccum-sealed on the supermarket shelves. I’m guessing your cows had wide open fields to roam freely in. Many cows, especially in the US where I live never see the light of day and are confined to crates where they can’t move their entire lives. It’s all about capitalism and animals (live, conscious beings) are merely seen as a commodity by large companies.

If people choose to eat meat the least they can do is make conscious decisions about what they buy.

1939ba says:

05:35pm | 21/01/11

Firstly, the person who wrote the article still eats meat and is therefore not a vegetarian. No matter how hard one champions the cause, that would appear to be a large stumbling block. I have a friend who was vegetarian for six years. One night after a gig we played we all went for burgers. On a whim, she ate a large steak sandwich, couldn’t believe how good it was and has eaten meat ever since. TVP and other ‘meat substitutes’ are terrible piles of processed crap and aside from being extremely unappetising they are NOT good for you. Veggies, however, are fantastic, power to them. I, like many non-vegetarians, will eat 2 ‘vegetarian’ meals a day. I don’t feel great if I eat more meat than that.

I’ve seen animals killed for meat. Unpleasant, yes. Only because I, like many other humans, am no longer conditioned for survival. Unnatural, no, not unnatural at all. It won’t stop me from eating it, or having a laugh at how easy it is to fly-fish for ethical vegetarians; put out the ‘meat is good’ bait and they’ll snatch at it like starving trout in a cool mountain stream.

Jacob says:

08:48pm | 21/01/11

Im a meat eater. do i care? No. Will i care? No.

Keith Hammersmith says:

10:42am | 22/01/11

what animals are tortured exactly?  most slaughter of animals in countries like australia are done as humanely as possible.  If you my post you would have noticed that I actually wasnt defending anything, what i did say is that life and death go hand in hand.
you actually are the one that got defensive.

to quote you Carly
“. If you eat meat - accept that you are the benefactor of some animal’s torture and murder.”
I would have to say this is a MASSIVE generalization,  one that comes from the defensive vegetarian.

I dont insult your inteligence for making the choice to not eat meat,
so get over the fact that not all humans think that killing an animal for food necessarily means they are ok with torture and animal abuse.

marley says:

08:46am | 22/01/11

So,if I understand you, you feel that we should ultimately end the exploitation of domestic animals.  Fine.  Is it morally better to kill an animal for food, or to simple kill off an entire species?  Because, if we don’t need cows for milk and meat, we won’t breed them, and they will disappear from the face of the earth. If we don’t use horses for riding and racing and meat, they too will disappear. I don’t really see that as a morally superior position, myself.

notSue says:

11:01am | 22/01/11

@marley It’s difficult, hence the use of the word ‘dilemma” ha!  However, not coming into existence in the first place is surely a better idea than slaughter?  If, by some act of mass will, we all became vegetarians tomorrow, the suffering of domestic animals presumably set free into the wild and the subsequent environmental damage would be a far worse crime. However, if, gradually. say over 200 years we control their breeding so that only small,” boutique” herds of cows,horses, sheep and pigs remain, say on reservations, the species continues and harm is minimised. Science fiction fantasy-land it may be, but hey, one can dream! haha!

After all, Pliny The Elder said in about 70 Ad that it “was only a matter of time before everyone is vegetarian”. He just didn’t realise how long that time would be!  (if ever.)

marley says:

03:38pm | 22/01/11

Well, I really don’t see the dilemma myself.  Is it better for a handful of Jersey cows to survive in your zoo, or for thousands to be enjoying the grass of a pasture on a sunny day? Is it better that dogs be gradually eliminated from our lives, as some would prefer, or that they continue a 30,000 year partnership with humans? 

By all means, make sure that animals are treated humanely, and that those bound for the dinner table are given at least a chance to graze in open fields.  But ultimately, they exist because we have a use for them.  If we do not have a use for them, they will disappear, as heavy horses are on the verge of doing.  And that would be regrettable.

notSue says:

10:18am | 25/01/11

Marley, in my fantasy scenario all extant life is treated with respect, irregardless of it’s usefulness to humans. I would hope that a society which is universally vegetarian would have long understood that the aim was to reduce food animal numbers to a manageable point, then release the remainder of our former slaves to a peaceful existence. I doubt we’ll reach agreement on this subject, but hey, that’s life.
The elimination of pets are an entirely different (and radical) point of view. We don’t slaughter them. My dog is no slave, she’s a member of our family pack, who knows her place and is content. Their pack nature has allowed them to assimilate into our homes very easily. I see no reason for the relationship (which it is) to cease.

notSue says:

02:03pm | 25/01/11

I woould also add that even tighter controls on dog and cat breeding than currently exist would help to eliminate the distressingly large number of domestic pets which are now euthanased. Hopefully, this will ensure that in future those who are lucky enough to own one will truly appreciate their anmal and treat it well.

*Siiigh* Such are the hopes and dreams of an idealist!~

notSue says:

04:07pm | 25/01/11

Just one last thing. I’m surprised no-one has asked ” if we no longer kill animals, what will the dogs and cats eat?”  (I don’t agree with some dogs and cats being forced to be vego curently). I forgot to mention the food replicators, didn’t I?  These produce a protein that looks, smells and tastes like and has the nutitional properties of, meat, without the need to kill anything to make it, (yay!) which both humans and animals enjoy.  ( I told you this was fantasy-land. Star trek anyone? )

marley says:

06:51pm | 25/01/11

I’m sorry, notSue, but if you think that letting animals, especially ones bred for domestication, loose to deal with nature in the raw is going to give them a peaceful existence, then all I can say is, you’ve never seen a lion run down an impala, or a fox tear a chicken apart. 

Nature isn’t gentle.  It isn’t peaceful.  Animals bred for domestication can’t cope with genuine predators on their own.  Maybe, because Australia has few natural predators, you don’t realize what wolves and big cats can do to lambs, sheep, calves and cattle. 

A dairy cow living on a farm with decent grazing and protected by fences, dogs and dipping, can have a good and lengthy life.  One on its own, not so much.

notSue says:

09:36am | 26/01/11

Marley, hi. Nice to see ya, but where did I say anything about letting domestic animals free to “deal with nature in the raw”? I did say that so doing now would be a crime, ” If, by some act of mass will, we all became vegetarians tomorrow, the suffering of domestic animals presumably set free into the wild and the subsequent environmental damage would be a far worse crime.” The only way I can see domestic animals coping is to be protected in “zoos”  or “reservations”.
I’m a bit surprised after everything I’ve said that that is the only (incorrect) point you choose to challenge me on.

marley says:

07:57am | 22/01/11

Perhaps you might follow your own advice, and “show some respect” to those who have different views than your own. 

You may feel that going vegetarian makes you morally superior to others.  Fine. Perhaps it does.  On the other hand, belittling people you don’t know, stereotyping “townies” as ignorant and narrow,  hating “city slickers” - these are not the qualities of moral superiority.

SteveO says:

04:48pm | 22/01/11

@ Marley:

Fine.  Can you demonstrate how the unsustainable consumption of animal protein that prioritises short-term anthropocentric consumption desires over ecological processes (and even over longer-term anthropocentric interests such as sustaining a viable human population without boom-bust population variances) is a morally superior position to adopt?

Thanks for your feedback,

Steve

Oscar the Grouch says:

07:15pm | 22/01/11

And here’s the problem. Go vego? Fine. Good for you. Not going to have a problem with that.

Start barking orders at other people to do exactly as you do? Lose our respect, especially if it’s got a fair bit of bigoted insulting commentary in there as well. Mate, I’ve killed animals, gutted and plucked them myself - living in a city doesn’t preclude that. And I am afraid I’m going to have to decline your order to “GO VEGO!  SHOW SOME RESPECT.” I’m all for treating livestock with some respect, as we did on our farm growing up, would like cage eggs outlawed and all that. But I’m not going to give up food I like to eat mealy tasteless soggy vegetarian garbage just because some random on the internet has decided I should.

Grow up.

marley says:

07:38pm | 22/01/11

As a matter of fact,  I live in the country. I’m not so sure you do.  Never met a country person that talked about “anthropocentric consumption.” 

Most of the folk around here are pretty relaxed about what they eat - some are vegans, some are vegetarians, most are omnivores who enjoy a good steak or a free-range chicken.  No one here is as disrespectful of other peoples’ choices as you seem to be.  So, again I ask you to demonstrate why calling city folk “clowns” is a morally superior position to adopt.

Oh, and your argument about anthropocentric consumption assumes it’s not part of the ecological process. On what basis do you make that assumption? Are not humans part of the food chain?  Why do you assume our part of it is not ecologically inevitable?

SteveO says:

09:31am | 23/01/11

Circular arguments, like I said above we can argue till we’re blue in the face and it won’t change a thing will it?

Why can’t I use anthropocentric consumption, what, because I’m from the country I have a syllable restriction on my language?  Haha, enjoy ya Macca’s fatties

Of course I don’t go round barking orders at people in real life, like you said, I’m a random on the internet!  Those militant hippie vegetarians are the most annoying people… maybe you guys should eat them… sequester some hot air…

Of course humans are part of the food chain, but I’m not sure that the industrial production of meat with all it’s ramifications are a natural ecological process Marley… growth hormones, artificial lighting regimes, phosphate and water depletion etc. Hmm.  And your argument about ‘inevitability’ seems to mitigate against any conception of free will - both for people and animals. I’m not a big believer in fate.

I think that if you put X number of people on the planet, with finite agricultural resources, and continue increasing X whilst decreasing the resource base (through urban sprawl, soil exhaustion etc) and increasing the less efficient forms of agriculture (like meat production) somewhere along the line we’re going to run into trouble.  And I don’t know if its a problem that market solutions can necessarily take care of.  There are technological fixes (to a point) to increase production artificially, but we’re not on the brink of another Green Revolution.

Many (most?) people are divorced from the food supply and little recognition exists of the embedded energy and resources that go into getting food from paddock to plate, and the difficult situation farmers are put in by the constant emphasis on production, production, production.  Capsuling ewes for example… no-one had to do that 20 years ago, even ten years ago.  Colin Tudge’s book “So shall we reap” explores this stuff in pretty interesting detail, and sketches some of the ramifications of humans unconstrained dietary choices.  I think that feasting away on meat 24/7 without any thought as to the potential problems it would cause if we all did so (and an increasing number of cultures are adopting a western-style meat heavy diet) is pretty bad behaviour on our part and surely we can do better?  Reason, self control and foresight are some of the things that separate us from animals and give people the responsibility of stewardship after all aren’t they? Thus, being a slavering servant to our base desires isn’t really the most morally upright stance we could be taking.  This is the problem with a heavily market-oriented society, deferred gratification doesnt exist anymore, our every whim is catered for regardless of the externalities it entails.

Cheerio, we should stop talking about this now cos we’re never going to reconcile it are we?

Oscar the Grouch says:

07:06pm | 26/01/11

“Haha, enjoy ya Macca’s fatties”

BMI’s 24 and I don’t touch that filthy stuff, but hey, why bother having a well-reasoned and skilfully argued opinion when you could just throw around a few insults, hey?

My issue with you is nothing to do with your vegetarianism and everything to do with the bigoted crap you’re spraying at anyone who doesn’t agree with you. I repeat: grow up.

Steve0 says:

12:18am | 27/01/11

Oscar,

You are very grouchy.

Here is a short recent article on the Age website that briefly outlines a bit more about some of the points i mentioned above.

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-world/world-needs-food-system-overhaul-report-20110125-1a3cw.html

By ‘show respect’ I mean it is time we in the westernised nations respected other people’s right to be able to access food to survive, rather than over-consume to the point where we have a bad obesity problem and ongoing deleterious impacts on the natural resource base. I also mean to say to the bad taste jokes in the comments a way up, show respect for other species - it’s disturbing that people can be so blase and joke about putting animals through totally unnecessary suffering.

Louise says:

01:11pm | 22/01/11

Cats and dogs in Korea and China are slaughtered using some of the most inhumane methods imaginable, and I’m talking being cooked alive with a blow-torch, being beaten to death slowly, boiled alive, electrocuted and hung by the neck with wire. In these Asian countries they believe that “Torture equals Taste” and some of the things they do to they is sickening even to the most red-neck meat lover. Do a Google search on the subject and you’ll see what I’m talking about. In the markets many of the dogs have collars on… because they are stolen pets. It’s all just absolutely horrific.

Jacob says:

11:22pm | 22/01/11

If it makes the cats and dogs taste nice. ill give it a try.

Kirk says:

12:50am | 23/01/11

Id rather pay someone to kill/clean/cut it for me I don’t have the time to do it all myself. Also I don’t eat meat because it’s the natural thing to do. I eat it because it’s delicous.