Wail of a time in North Korea

not a bogan like the rest of you says:

11:13am | 20/12/11

would you call a 28 year old in the ADF a child?

john says:

11:32am | 20/12/11

@ a bogan ” would you call a 28 year old in the ADF a child”

I doubt his duties would include to be in charge of ADF’s nuclear arsenal & ~10 million military including reserve personnel.

If that was Australia’s capability would you be comfortable with a 28 year old as a dictator in Australia with the force of 10 million with nukes?

See how far removed we are in “fluffy” Australia from the real world?

gobsmack says:

12:24pm | 20/12/11

We survived George Bush junior having access to the shiny red button, so I remain optimistic.

Mark says:

01:17pm | 20/12/11

In any case, he has done nothing to show, either way, how his coming to power will reflect on the international state. So yes, John, I would say he has just as much to be trusted for as any number of current and past leaders of nuclear capable states.  George W Bush??

Just remember, this generation has done nothing wrong, yet. Unlike every previous one. But ok, ignore all the facts about GenY and get caught up in the media hype- do you think Kim Jong is still bludging off his parents and has a massive credit card debt too?

Mark says:

01:17pm | 20/12/11

In any case, he has done nothing to show, either way, how his coming to power will reflect on the international state. So yes, John, I would say he has just as much to be trusted for as any number of current and past leaders of nuclear capable states.  George W Bush??

Just remember, this generation has done nothing wrong, yet. Unlike every previous one. But ok, ignore all the facts about GenY and get caught up in the media hype- do you think Kim Jong is still bludging off his parents and has a massive credit card debt too?

James says:

03:14pm | 20/12/11

john says:12:32pm | 20/12/11

@ a bogan ” would you call a 28 year old in the ADF a child”

Ha, ha exactly, how wrong could he have got that infantile thought bubble? Sorry, but very much a Bogan comment indeed.

Erick says:

05:25pm | 20/12/11

George W Bush proved to be a very capable and stable leader. Even with the huge provocation of 9/11, he refrained from using America’s immense nuclear capabilities (over 5,000 bigger-than-Hiroshima bombs).

And he negotiated with both Afghanistan and Iraq, offering them a chance for a peaceful resolution of the issue - which they refused.

G W Bush was a mature, intelligent and stable leader, as proven by his actions. This juvenile hate-propaganda does its disseminators a disservice.

gobsmack says:

06:05pm | 20/12/11

@Erick
You really make me laugh sometimes.  Bush “negotiated” with Iraq.  If you recall he was hell-bent on going to war with Iraq and used the flimsiest of pretext to do so.
As for your “juvenile hate-propaganda” comment, this is coming from someone who has stated a number of times that Obama hates America.  My comment above was semi-serious.  What’s your excuse?

Shane From Melbourne says:

06:10pm | 20/12/11

@Erick- George W Bush a capable and intelligent leader??? Two costly and useless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and a U.S economy that is a basket case all happened on his watch. With leaders like him who needs enemies?

Erick says:

06:48pm | 20/12/11

You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.

Believe whatever you want, guys. The facts speak for themselves.

gobsmack says:

07:23pm | 20/12/11

@Erick
You obviously believe whatever suits your worldview.
BTW, have you noticed how many of those pesky asylum seekers from Iraq and Afghanistan have been heading this way since Bush & co brought freedom and democracy to those countries?

john says:

07:45pm | 20/12/11

“George W Bush”

How bizarre that those that hated bush in hindsight now take comfort in him with kim un taking the reins.

Govt@FauxCitizen says:

01:10am | 21/12/11

@gobsmack, being “optomistic” comparing Bush to Kim whathisname is like comparing the donkey you rode in on to Black Caviar, seriously.You should try posting before smoking whackey weed.
I don’t think there are too many 28 year old 4 star generals let alone 5 Star dipstick despot dictaors in charge of 1.2 million braiwashed military let alone a shitload of undisclosed nukes and let’s not forget the other 6 million red guard reservists.

SpagBol says:

10:42am | 21/12/11

Hahahahahahahahahaha… I somehow knew, deep down inside, that Erick was a Bush fan. it makes so much fucking sense.

John says:

10:48am | 21/12/11

@Erick “Even with the huge provocation of 9/11, he refrained from using America’s immense nuclear capabilities”. What a stupid comment, are you really so naive to think that any president in the US after a terrorist attack would start nuclear bombing random countries in the world?

Erick says:

11:25am | 21/12/11

@John - Apparently some people were stupid enough to think Bush might have done that. Just look at the comments in this thread from people who really believe the anti-Bush propaganda.

jjj says:

11:31am | 21/12/11

Erick says
“Believe whatever you want, guys. The facts speak for themselves. “

In fact, this is erick’s interpretation of the facts. Straight out of the conservative playbook.
“Facts, or what a man believes to be facts, are delightful… Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.”
Mark Twain

John says:

04:16pm | 22/12/11

@Erick you can’t make a stupid comment making it a virtue of Bush for not nuclear bombing the world and then turn around and say that the left were saying it. YOU made that claim. who else said it was a positive of bush for not doing that thing?

hired goon says:

11:08am | 20/12/11

I agree wholeheartedly. That “The Punch Team” has to fight their initial urge to laugh at the North Koreans means they are bastards of the highest order.

North Korea is a grim place where people are forced to live in misery, in subservience to the army and a hereditary leader who claims to be appointed by a higher power. It is beyond medieval.

Deano says:

11:20am | 20/12/11

Who cares , its Christmas!!! Walk it off Fairsfair.

fairsfair says:

11:28am | 20/12/11

Your comment below Deano - hilair. I am laughing at that.

There is a difference though. His death does nto spell the end of anything and now we are laughing at a nation of people who were so opressed by this lunatic and will continue to be by his son. I just find that a little bit offensive is all.

Brian B says:

11:36am | 20/12/11

How is the article racist?

We are talking about indescribable cruelty and degradation to human beings by a barbarian, not referring to his race.

Get a grip.

Tony says:

11:48am | 20/12/11

Fairsfair
I believe some of the humanitarian organisations are looking for volunteers

hired goon says:

11:49am | 20/12/11

Brian B - it isn’t racist, but it is callous.

“Oh, so you guys are starving to death in a backwards hell hole, and are crying about the death of a man who is responsible for your suffering because you’re scared of being sent to a prison camp? How hilarious!”

Cookie Monster says:

12:06pm | 20/12/11

So fairsfair - you’re saying that its not politically correct to be glad of the death a despotic, murdering, dictator that killed millions and bought untold suffering to his people because he’s of a different race -

Good thing for the Mugabe’s of the world, they can live free of ridicule -

fairsfair says:

12:15pm | 20/12/11

Well, I was asking the question. Perhaps callous is better. F*cked up is probably bang on.

This article is going past ridicule of Kim Jong Ill and it is laughing at a nation of people who are responding to the death of their dictator. The article is poking fun at the cultural response of opressed individuals, which for many people is showing strong emotion. Or Crocodile tears as the team have decided.

To me, that seems more racist than using the word “black” or “asian” as a descriptive term. Tory would write an article about that, but now she is taking a part in the mockery of a cultural group because their responses are different to what “ours” would be. It just seems a bit too much really.

I detest Kim Jong Ill, but I see no point in celebrating his death because it does not mark the end of his regime. “Its easy to make fun of the teary scenes” - no its not.

fairsfair says:

12:25pm | 20/12/11

No that is not at all what I am saying Cookie. There is a difference between ridiculing Kim Jong Ill and making light of the reactions of a cultural group who still live under a cruel dictatorship.

Do you think Little Kim would have been happy to see the news reporter celebrating the death of his father on the news? So you not think the news reporter was petrified of possible responses to his reaction to the death? Do you not think that the reporter may have feared for their welfare if they did not show enough emotion at the death. Also, what is to say that the response was not totally genuine?

Laughing at the members of a cultural group under extreme and continued opression is just not funny and that seems like a racist act in the truest sense of the word.

MarkS says:

12:50pm | 20/12/11

Racist, hell no.  Race does not equal Nation. So laughing at a nation is not laughing at a race. They are not laughing at his death so much as the reaction to his death. Who cares if you like it do not find it funny.

It reminds me of a doco I saw about North Koreans getting operations so they could see again. The bandages where taken off in a room with a picture of the Dear Leader at one end, they all cried out that now they could see the Dear Leader again. If you cannot find that funny then you have no idea what dark humour means.

the_pseudonym says:

01:41pm | 20/12/11

And yet if anyone from the ‘right’ were to make a humorous comment about, oh I don’t know, maybe an economic opportunist drowning, then poking fun at the country of origin, the ‘left’ would be up in arms and pitchforks, till their collective faces turned blue from holding their breath in indignation.

Cookie Monster says:

03:01pm | 20/12/11

fairfair - Firstly, I don’t think the article is making fun of North Korea - they are merely showing the theatics and over-reaction from the nation while also stating that “Show an inappropriate level of misery (i.e anything less than full breakdown) and you risk being nabbed by the thought police. It’s terrifying stuff. We here at The Punch are genuinely torn between our initial instincts to make fun of a nation’s crocodile tears, and our sympathy for those forced to cry.”

Secondly, a bit of perspective on your part is called for. At the moment who cares what Kim Jong’s son thinks of articles that he reads about his father or what reporters are saying. He has yet to reveal what kind of leader he will be. Kim Jong has earnt the respect of no-one. You are showing alot of sympathy for the dictator and none for the people that he tortured and murdered.

And thirdly, “Laughing at the members of a cultural group under extreme and continued oppression is just not funny and that seems like a racist act in the truest sense of the word. ” Insensitive maybe, but racist no. I can’t see anywhere in the article that they are stating that the events are occurring because of their race.

And I might point out that while you are concerned and worry about Little Kim’s grief over his murderous father, in your words above the North Korean people are still “under extreme and continued oppression”.

Really I can’t stand bleeding hearts and dictatorship apologists like you.

fairsfair says:

03:32pm | 20/12/11

Um.. sorry, but you have not understood where I am coming from. I don’t have the energy to explain because it is only misconstrewed anyway. 

I am not apologising for the regime - the reporter I am talking about is the one in North Korea who could be viewed by Little Kim, who would be opressed by Little Kim. As if anyone in North Korea would give a hoot what The Punch thinks of the, let alone Kim Jong Il’s son.

Agree to disagree on this one. The way this “article” is presented is low. Bleeding heart is a new one for me.

Cookie Monster says:

03:57pm | 20/12/11

Oh please fairsfair. I see exactly where you’re coming from so don’t give some lame excuse. We are not laughing at them as a CULTURAL group. There culture has nothing what so-ever to do with the Punch article. And the Punch article was not a comedy piece about their reactions. They even say how sad they are to see the reaction knowing that it is because they are oppressed. Really fairsfair.

“The article is poking fun at the cultural response of opressed individuals” - this is not a cultural response. Why would you think this is a cultural response? Are you the racist here? Its a response from being oppressed. The same response has occurred all over the world when people have fear dictators.

fairsfair says:

04:58pm | 20/12/11

Seriously Cookie Monster - are you Ant or someone?

I have poorly communicated my point and you have misunderstood it. Move on.

LJ Dots says:

06:19pm | 20/12/11

@fairs. My first thought was to compare mourning rituals between North and South Korea and see if this behaviour ‘fit in’ for both sides. The rituals for a death should not differ greatly between North and South since the Korean War was several decades ago, but not enough to significantly change a culture. If not, then it could be put down as a result of the existing political system in the North.

In short. If you think the reactions are genuine, it may indeed be a racist article. But for me, it does appear politically driven and if wrong, I would be happy for a South Korean to correct me here.

LJ Dots says:

07:18pm | 20/12/11

@fairs - apologies, I missed your earlier comment on which your point hinged. ‘Laughing at the members of a cultural group under extreme and continued oppression is just not funny and that seems like a racist act in the truest sense of the word.’

I saw it more as laughter not at the cultural group, but at a political system that can operate and influence people in this way.

On a side note, when trying to place this in a Western context, all I could think of was the public reaction to the death of Princess Di.

fairsfair says:

07:24pm | 20/12/11

I do agree to an extent LJD, but I would argue that “opression” is part of North Korean culture. We, as free Australians cannot even comprehend the real situation in the that country. So in the relatively short time since the war (in a historical sense) I believe a gulf would have developed between the north and the south. I too believe that the responses are politically motivated, maybe in their entirety or partially, but they in themselves are directly related to the oppression.

This is no different to mocking the Afghan people who expressed sadness and concern for their future at the fall of the Taliban. I think in reality, a lot of those responses were born from fear of repercussions, even though most people would have been very glad to see the Taliban falter. This situation is totally different in reality - this is not like Egypt, this is not like Libya - there is someone to replace this man, his death presents no option for the people. These people don’t have an avenue to express how the really feel to the western media - they would be too frightened of the potential reaction of the existing and confirmed continuing regime.

I guess what I am trying to say is these people are over a barrel, and this article promotes people to gather round that barrel and point and laugh. Point at laugh at the fundamental differences between them and us.

Cookie Monster says:

10:02am | 21/12/11

fairsfair says:05:58pm | 20/12/11 “Seriously Cookie Monster - are you Ant or someone? I have poorly communicated my point and you have misunderstood it. Move on.”

Seriously fairsfair - juvenile come-backs get you nowhere. You may have poor communication skills but I have not misunderstood. You are saying that the article is racist. I’m saying it may be in poor taste but its hardly racist.

By the way oppression is spelt with two “p’s”.

Sarah says:

10:17am | 21/12/11

@fairsfair I agree, it’s not racist though but it is extremely unsettling.  I’ve actually felt a bit ill seeing programs like that awful show, the project or whatever it’s called now, laughing at these poor people grieving.  I think we have no idea what they are grieving over, we don’t know that if they don’t appear to be sad enough, maybe their families will be in danger.  We don’t know whether they are grieving because of what they know is coming.  We just don’t know, such is the nature of North Korea, that to laugh is to disrespect an entire nation.

fairsfair says:

10:48am | 21/12/11

@ Cookie Monster - wow.

Merry Christmas to you and your family.

@ LJD - the Diana comparison is quite relevant I think, good point. I wonder however if people of other cultures would have (like Sarah suggests) sat around on a mainstream television show and cacked themselves at people placing flowers at the gates of Kensington Palace etc?

I wouldn’t see issue with the mockery if the free and educated people of North Korea had contributed toward the developed this situation through democratic processes. I personally view these responses as a symptom of the system (that those affected have no control over) so these people only have my sympathy. 

I would agree that racism is probably not the best word, but it does seem that some people are making light of a culturally specific behaviour (be it genuine or a learned/forced emotion), so there are elements of something negative there.

Cookie Monster says:

11:09am | 21/12/11

fairsfair says:11:48am | 21/12/11 “@ Cookie Monster - wow.”

Is that you’re only line of defence? - an idiotic comment. You made an assertion now you won’t defend it. Its unfortunate when people make stupid comments, get called out on them and then don’t want to play anymore.

fairsfair says:

11:45am | 21/12/11

If you stopped speaking to me like I am piece of crap, maybe I would invest the time in having an adult conversation with you and try to better explain my point.

Life is to short however, so I wish you well in 2012.

Cookie Monster says:

03:50pm | 21/12/11

Oh please fairsfair - you started with the comments - remember “fairsfair says:05:58pm | 20/12/11 Seriously Cookie Monster - are you Ant or someone?”

Seriously fairsfair - get over yourself -

the enforcer says:

05:13pm | 21/12/11

Seriously cookie monster, don’t mess with fairsfair.
She is a delicate flower and is protected when commenting on the punch.
Leave her alone, or you will be hunted down and made to pay the price.
This is the only warning you will receive.

Merry Christmas

Cookie Monster says:

02:57pm | 22/12/11

the enforcer says:06:13pm | 21/12/11 - you’d have to bring an army - and yes fairsfair is soft and flimsy -

Kim says:

02:13pm | 20/12/11

I don’t think so. This seems like fear-fed Stockholm Syndrome on a national scale.

Sarah says:

10:13am | 21/12/11

BA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Tim says:

11:29am | 21/12/11

I’m worried that we’ve lost the best golfer that the world has ever seen:

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Jong+golfing+accomplishments+will+never+repeated/5883374/story.html

john says:

11:41am | 20/12/11

More like The Lake Wobegon effect perhaps, where they are all above average at grief ?

Dave says:

12:13pm | 20/12/11

Uh no-one’s saying Kim Jong un will start WWIII - in fact no-one is sure if he will get the gig for real. It could be one of the powerful figures in the shadows. As for assessments by Hilary. the US military and South Korea, I suggest you read the book recommended in the article - “Nothing to Envy”. The truth is that in sheer desperation many thousands of people have been crossing the border into China since the first famines. North Koreans have the right to live in South Korea becuase South Korea considers north koreans as their citizens. The horrors of North Korea are not unknown and they are not made up or exagerated. The only unknown in North Korea is exactly who pulls the strings and how. In such a completely closed off society it is extrememly difficult to answer those high level questions. So anything could happen - which is precisely why that truly evil regime has managed to survive so long.

Matt says:

03:26pm | 20/12/11

TChong, anyone whose moral compass is set by looking at what the US thinks and then thinking the opposite is a fool and worthy of nothing but contempt.

‘Useful idiots” can be relied on to support any dictator, howver vile, as long they oppose the Great Satan ...

Hank says:

08:14pm | 20/12/11

Dont be too hard on poor old Chongy.  After all his hero and comrade has passed away.

gobsmack says:

12:34pm | 20/12/11

Bertrand, thanks for the link to the article.  Very interesting, if somewhat depressing.

amy says:

12:19pm | 20/12/11

but like the article said..(on some level) it could be just a show

if the dear leader dies and the thourght police are on the prowel then damn right Im going to breakout the tears

John says:

12:50pm | 20/12/11

It’s kinda scary that obama, blair, sarkozy,merkel and bush and their cronies were capable of turning an entire populace into mindless zombies like this.  And they are mindless, anyone outside looking in can see the glaring issues and atrocities but for the people all they see is sunshine and rainbows, through fear and intimidation the western dictators and the controlled western media were actually able to shutdown people’s natural desire to investigate and question

sorry buddy, the west is just as bad.

dancan says:

12:55pm | 20/12/11

@Amy -  I wonder how much is just for show hiding their actual feelings, or how much is indoctrinated reaction.  30 odd years is a long time to be suppressing your thoughts and ideas especially when the police are watching for any type of dissidence.  Perhaps after 10, 15, 20 years the people just gave in, it would either be death, insanity or acceptance.

Bertrand says:

06:55pm | 20/12/11

I think that maybe such a repressed people would find a mass outpouring of emotion to be incredibly cathartic.

John says:

12:24pm | 20/12/11

Fail.

Nick says:

01:29pm | 20/12/11

Win more like it.

Watched the connected vid, its funny at first, but down right scary after a few minutes. I’m sure even the Greens would be a godsend to these forsaken people.

John this must be how you imagine your minions lol.

john says:

12:22pm | 20/12/11

@Daniel
“The eating of the human meat in the markets because they are all starving is going too far though. It is seriously these poor people.”

The North Koreans may find it fascinating looking into an ant colony in a glass flagon, watching their fledging colony.

We are just as bizarre to look at these North Korean people as if we are looking into the strange world of a snow-globe and their fledging colony.

Begs the question who would be looking at the rest of us as if we were in a snow-globe world ourselves?

Apathy is mankind's greatest sin says:

01:27pm | 20/12/11

The North Koreans are not the only Brain Washed people, Daniel.. Look around you, Westerners are just slaves to a system rather than a particular leader.

Peter says:

01:41pm | 20/12/11

For a sec there I thought you were talking about The Punch.  But then you got to the bit about eating human meat.

P. Darvio says:

12:54pm | 20/12/11

Yes - In North Korea - first the was:

The Father,
and then there was Son,
and now there’s the Spirit of the Son.

A Holy Trinity indeed.  The parallels are just creepy.

Mikeymike says:

03:01pm | 20/12/11

WW3 is coming?  I’ll take that bet.  What’s your timeline?

James says:

03:30pm | 20/12/11

Oh shutup John, you hysterical conspiracy theorist. What is it with the Left and their endless need for drama, drama, drama ... oh give me screeching DRAMA. You knowthe thought of it occuring is not “scary to you John, in fact you would probably love it if it happened because for once the loony left wouldn’t be shown to be just that loony. Of course these wild theories never come to pass they are simply a product of the obsessive dramatic.

Jon says:

04:14pm | 20/12/11

James, there are just as many crazies on the right. As much as it might make you feel better about your own political leanings, nuts are just nuts, whtever side they are on.

john says:

01:30pm | 20/12/11

@John

Are you a octogenarian drunk. What’s with all the exclamation marks etc?

commie & comrade terms for Europe are so 1980’s and died out when the iron curtain came down.

John says:

01:56pm | 20/12/11

I’m the greatest mind that has ever lived. The mind of truth obliterates all. It’s why nobody debates me! They are just weak petty name calling tactics by egotistical infected minds.

void says:

03:03pm | 20/12/11

@ John 02:56pm

Not sure if serious.

Chris L says:

03:59pm | 20/12/11

@Void - when he starts arguing with one of his other personalities it’s time to quietly back off.

Eric The Red says:

04:01pm | 20/12/11

@ John I’m the greatest , does Fruit loop Alert ring a bell for you??

John says:

01:33pm | 20/12/11

Kinda sounds exactly like the west. Remember the media blackout when NATO was turning Libya into a parking lot? Just watch when they start bombing Iran. Get the pop corn! Watch how the western media portrays this. Did the western media report on the mass war crimes committed by NATO armed, supported, funded and direction Islamic Jihadists in Libya ! of course they didn’t! Where was the human rights groups? oh!! to busy looking at one sided human rights violations of the so called enemy nations of the western cabal. If your a friend of the west, you can never commit war crimes as the human rights Inc doesn’t register those.

P. Darvio says:

01:57pm | 20/12/11

Quote: And those that mock here maybe shed a tear when the Pope died, or when Princess Diana died…..

Pope? - no - no tears (I don’t cry for protectors of Paedophiles)
Princess Diana - no - no tears although I did feel sorry for her 2 sons (wear your seatbelt next time Diana, the only person who survived the crash did wear his seatbelt – and he was in the front).

Dan says:

03:00pm | 20/12/11

John, do your conspiracy theories ever run out, or do you deduce them from whatever pops out of your fortune cookie?  Remember: deserts aren’t always right, even if they are so sweet and tasty.

RyaN says:

02:10pm | 20/12/11

@overit: I personally found it hilarious! One more dead despot, the year would be nicely rounded off with Mugabe adding to the mix.

overit says:

03:08pm | 21/12/11

hey I agree completely. I’m stoked the old dickhead is dead, Mugabe is long overdue as well. just don’t find anything funny about the people who are being brutalized by these clowns

void says:

01:53pm | 20/12/11

Like Elvis, Kim Jong Il didn’t die.  He just went home.

P. Darvio says:

06:17pm | 20/12/11

I’m now scared - I think the North Koreans are listening and reading The Punch - they have just updated their website with the news of KJI death.

gobsmack says:

02:55pm | 20/12/11

... and maybe firing canisters of tear gas into the crowd.

john says:

03:42pm | 20/12/11

@James “If the camera panned to the left”

...and if it panned alittle more to the left maybe we’d see <ahref=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjyZv-dcpZ8&feature=related”>this</a>

Sick of the BS says:

09:53pm | 20/12/11

Got yer tinfoil hat on a little bit too tight today Renn? So what you are trying to say is NK is really just a peaceloving nation that has done no wrong and its all just the evil wests propaganda that depicts them as “evil’ yeah? So why dont you just pop over to NK and try and get an opinion published in any way or form that doesnt tow the party line,then get back to us and let us know how you get on? Damn us evil westerners persecuting those poor peace loving North Koreans!!!

marley says:

06:09am | 21/12/11

@ZSRenn - you’re joking, right?  Remember the North Koreans kidnapping all those Japanese back in the 70s?  Hell, they’re still abducting South Koreans.

Or how about their assorted assassinations of South Korean activists?  Or their bombing of flight 858?

Most of all, what about their starving their own people and requiring food aid from the evil USA?

Groucho49 says:

07:38am | 21/12/11

“Fact: All rights are reserved on the book. (Probably making a killing .at the book stores)”
Oh please. What on earth point do you think you are making here, Renn?

*Every* Publisher and/or Author of *any* published work is entitled to Copyright in it. It’s a basic right. Usually automatic on publication. It aims to ensure equity, not just in sale revenue but also in due attribution/acknowledgement of authorship, and in defence against plagiarism.

Like The Punch. It’s copyright. News Ltd copyright.

And in posting here, you -we all- agree to the Terms & Conditions:
When you submit content to News in any format, including any text, photographs, graphics, video or audio, you grant News a non-exclusive, royalty-free, perpetual license to publish that content.

All noted at the foot of every single fricken Punch page.

In short, Renn, you do not know what you’re talking about. As per usual.

How may times now have you been caught out on The Punch,  hey? With your dodgy arguments, your repeatedly dodgy numbers, and your dodgy facts? Hey?

Your posts, mate, are a laughing stock.

ZSRenn says:

10:16am | 21/12/11

Fact: She has never set foot in North Korea
And this is the most important one; not admissible in court as it is third party reporting,

Why because facts get distorted in the telling.

@ Groucho49 if you want to attack my figures and posts for being wrong; do it where you see them not when they are no where to be seen. You have agreed with my second fact and not disproved the others. A personal attack is not proof of error.

Groucho49 says:

11:11am | 21/12/11

” You have agreed with my second fact”
Claptrap. You tried to make out that copyright went against Demmick’s credibility. I’ve shown that Copyright is totally *irrelevant* to your attack on Demmick. It has *nothing* to do with her credibility. Zero, zilch, nothing, nada. Pointlessly irrelevant - fact.

Personal attack? Nup. Mate, seriously, I’ve said nothing about you *personally* - fact.  What I have done is to criticise the *content* of your posts: for dodgy facts, dodgy arguments, and dodgy numbers. Easy to find.

Example? You’ve been at it again in your attempt at a reply to me.
You’ve tried to make out I’ve “agreed” with you. Total distortion there mate. Nup.
You’ve tried to make out I attacked you *personally* - factually wrong. It’s your sloppy content I get stuck into.

And you have often tried to pull these tricks before on The Punch, and been shot down, quite rightly. They won’t be hard to find, and that’s a *fact*.

Groucho49 says:

08:18pm | 21/12/11

A bit of free time to unpick some more of ZSRenn’s supposed “facts” in his attack on Demmick’s book and her credibility.

“Fact: She has never set foot in North Korea.”
Uh huh. Wow. And you, ZSRenn are not in North Korea *either*. You are in China. Not in North Korea? Oh noes! ZSRenn is in the same boat! His point then is completely…pointless. 

“Fact: All rights are reserved on the book. (Probably making a killing .at the book stores)”
Rights reserved? So what? So nothing. Totally irrelevant to Demmick’s credibility.  Already comprehensively flogged.

“Fact: She is telling the west what it wants to hear. An enemy exists and we should fear it.”  This isn’t a “fact” at all. It is merely an opinion. Welcome to your opinion, but that is all it is. Not a “fact” then.

“Fact: South Korea had nuclear weapons first and that would confirm my fears about it and the US if I were North Korean.”
The weapons bit simply isn’t a “fact” at all. It’s not true. South Korea never *had* nuclear weapons. Weapons research halted in the 70s under US pressure and South Korea is a non-weapons State signatory to the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty.  They do have major nuclear power generation. The rest isn’t a “fact” either. It’s your supposition.

“Fact: The US would want North Korea to fall and be snuggled up against China’s border.”
Not a “fact” in any sense. Merely your opinion, again. With both China and Russia on the North Korean borders, more likely that US and other major powers would simply prefer a *stable* and predictable regime in North Korea, Far more likely, to my mind - realpolitik. But that is just my opinion, and no more a “fact” than ZSRenn’s unsupported claim.

“Fact: US embargoes have had an effect on the supplies that have reached North Korea and have contributed to the famine. “
Selective distortion. The height of the famine was from 1994 to 1998. The US provided massive food aid from 1997 to 1999. Aid was subsequently reduced but *not* embargoed. Today, international food aid continues for North Korea. The main sources are:  China, Pakistan, Japan, South Korea and…..the United States.

Oh dear. Dodgy arguments,  based on dodgy facts and overblown opinion.

Looks like anyone reading your posts, ZSRenn, needs to check them very very carefully. Your “facts” have turned out to be either irrelevant, pointless, flat wrong, selectively distorted, or merely fluffed up opinion.

ZSRenn says:

09:11pm | 20/12/11

Bullshit!

Groucho49 says:

05:05pm | 21/12/11

Some sympathy with your view, Chook, but he’s just plain dead.

Just like the million or more of his subjects, who died of starvation in the 1994-1998 North Korean famine, under the callous hand of his regime.

There is sobering international data about the state of the people of North Korea.  Here’s a few examples.

Maternal mortality rate:  250 deaths/100,000 live births (2008)
Infant mortality rate:  27.11 deaths/1,000 live births
Life expectancy at birth: 68.89 years

To get the scale of the human tragedy imposed on North Koreans by Kim, here are the same metrics, this time for South Korea

Maternal mortality rate:  18 deaths/100,000 live births (2008)
Infant mortality rate:  4.16 deaths/1,000 live births
Life expectancy at birth:  total population: 79.05 years

The differences are frankly appalling.