Like most females, I am prone to that odd bit of judgment. With the exception of close friends’ birthdays, I forego trashy clubs in favour of nights out at great restaurants.

A night out can end in social media humiliation

My fashion icons are from days gone by, so I’m more inclined to emulate the feminine styles of Audrey Hepburn and Grace Kelly than look for dresses that barely skim my thighs. And although I love the odd cocktail, I am particularly cautious about how far I go for a drink, lest I wind up trashed anywhere – particularly on the internet.

Some would say I’m a little tightly wound, but after my latest social networking discovery, I couldn’t care less about their opinions. And that’s because my recent discovery had me questioning things I’d accepted as fairly concrete aspects of life in the modern day and age, and in the Australian society.

Most of us have already been warned of the perils of social networking, our photos and our private life. But with blurred lines about privacy controls for photo albums where sites like Facebook are concerned, certain attitudes are simmering to a point where we’d yet again need to debate how well our melting pot is cooking.

In fact, they beg the question of whether or not the underlying issues that may have contributed to the infamous gang rapes of a decade past are simmering once again, which could perhaps have them lead to events not unlike the Cronulla Riots.

I say this because I recently discovered a Facebook group devoted to mocking girls whose members do not classify as ‘marriage material’.

Given that we’re all entitled to our own opinions about what constitutes a good spouse, I am not going to dwell on a topic more fit for an individual than the community.

But my concern arose from the fact that the pictures used for the afore-mentioned mocking were of regular girls on their nights out, pulled from their own photo albums and catalogued for the criticisms of a minority who didn’t feel the privacy of those involved was worth protecting.

The group, which has now been deleted no doubt to various reports lodged by various Facebook users, featured an album of girls the (now absent) administrator classified as being unfit for marriage, based on their dress and mannerisms.

Let me attempt to paint a picture. A few of these girls clutched bottles of alcohol, some danced suggestively by poles. Some were in relatively skimpy clothing, while others suggestively pashed their boyfriends in the photos, with visible tongue for, no doubt, their personal viewing pleasure.

Despite the fact that I’d be wary of half of these photos involving myself, my sisters, or women I classify as my nearest and dearest, I’d accepted the fact that these were their personal and private photos and that it was not up to me to decide what the message they projected was.

Unfortunately, the admin didn’t share my opinion. That’s because he opened up the floor to his friends to comment on them as well, and, upon finding their pictures online, the girls in question begged the admin to remove them, only to be subjected to disgraceful taunts and sexually demeaning comments which myself and other users found simply mind boggling.

Some comments called for Arabic males to put these girls in their place or teach them a lesson about behaviour, while others even alluded to the fact that the women involved needed to be spoken to by Sheik El-Hilaly on the perils of ‘uncovered meat’.

As a doctoral student specialising in the (often radicalised) representations of Middle-Eastern people in the press and pop culture, I’m more than weary of attributing my discovery to Sheik El-Hilaly’s now infamous ‘uncovered meat’ sermon on the gang rapes and the dress of young women today, because it is not about that at all.

And despite the fact that the group contained a majority membership of males of the Islamic faith, I feel that the attitudes prevalent in the now defunct group reflect a bigger social problem.

I say this because a recent column by freelance journalist Anna Greer calling for some understanding into the issues of wearing the Burqa and the debate surrounding its ban in Europe, plenty of comments were those of disdain.

Most Australians questioned why they had to be accepting of an item of dress they felt to be demeaning to women/feminism, while others argued that it raised issues of security or protected the liberty of the wearer over those who didn’t wear it (for example, at a bank or when police pull you over).

The column received a number of comments but still, no issue was reached.

As a person who has lived in a multi-cultural, inter-faith community all her life, I can’t say I am utterly phased. I empathise with burqa wearers because I’d be crushed if I couldn’t wear my crucifix, but then again, I doubt I’d be able to do that in Saudi Arabia or Iran, so I can’t exactly blame those Australians who are concerned about its wear in their majority-western society.

And I can’t help but warn girls who don’t want their photos mocked or their honour ridiculed, to not paste them on the internet where privacy issues are raised every day.

But considering the comments I recently read in that recent Facebook group, there is a bigger debate at stake.

Before we even get to discussing the burqa’s presence in our society, we need to ensure that when it comes to passing judgment, we’re all on the same page.

And if we want to avoid rearing a generation of males (no matter their ethnicity) who feel a woman ought to be publicly condemned (or worse, sexually assaulted) for dressing in something deemed appropriate in her society, we need to ensure that we’re addressing that, before we start attacking the kind of dress that doesn’t even warrant a major percentage of women-wearers in our population.

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123 comments

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    • Eric says:

      05:20am | 12/03/10

      Feminists are outraged if men comment on the attitudes of women. Just look at the reaction to Tony Abbott’s comments on the desirability of virginity. Or the vitriolic comments that often condemn men for daring to have an opinion about abortion.

      Yet it seems feminists like Sarah Ayoub feel free to criticise the attitudes of men, and demand that such incorrect thoughts “be addressed”. Well maybe they should, but then let’s look at the attitudes of women toward men as well, and see how those could be improved from a man’s point of view.

      In one subtle aspect of such attitudes, this article partakes of misandry in its choice of words. Females are always referred to as “women” or “girls”, as human beings. Men are referred to as “males”, as animals or things. This objectification and dehumanisation of men is one of the aspects of feminist though that should be addressed - even if it’s only a small one.

      If you don’t like women being referred to as “uncovered meat”, don’t refer to men as “males”.

    • formersnag says:

      06:47am | 12/03/10

      Good morning Eric, spot on, as usual.

      They also conveniently forget to mention, their own complicity. Just a few days ago on this very web site. There was an article compering photos of Putin to Abbott. And what did we see but 200 comments, mostly from loony, left, women & men ridiculing Australia’s Opposition Leader for wearing a “Surf Lifesaving” uniform. Which includes the much commented upon budgie smugglers.

    • bec says:

      07:12am | 12/03/10

      You are both interesting fellows. At first I thought you were both internet trolls, doing it for the lulz. Right now, I’m thinking that you’re those guys who buy up big on aluminium foil to line your house so that the aliens don’t read your brainwaves.

    • bec says:

      07:57am | 12/03/10

      Responding to your arguments seems to be like fighting WITH children, though. Neither of you have substantially addressed any of Sarah’s points: all you did was have a pissing fight about semantics, accuse anyone who disagree with you of being manhaters, and throw a tantrum. Your posts are the ideological equivalent of throwing a tantrum, leaving, and taking all your toys along with you.

      Neither of you ever post with solutions for the ills of the world that you so freely bemoan. You illogically say that feminists are bad for trying to act like men, then you complain because we don’t *work* like men. You say that we should be working in the home exclusively, and then you bitch and moan because you don’t get an equal crack at custody (because in your amazing fantasy world, judges just totes love granting custody to people who have no track record of looking after children). You consistently post hateful memes about women, and as soon as the word “male” or “man” pops up in any comment, about any topic, regardless of the context, you’re bleating and crying about how you’re the most specialest of snowflakes and oppressed.

      You are not oppressed, hated, pr discriminated against. You are made fun of because your long, angry, illogical rants are hilarious, pathetic, and self-serving. You’re the John Galts of Australian tabloid news servers.

    • Zeta says:

      08:27am | 12/03/10

      @ bec - I don’t know where this puts me on a Kinsey scale, but I’m fascinated by the prospect of formersnag and Eric hooking up and making out.

    • Glen says:

      09:27am | 12/03/10

      @ Zeta - just don’t puit the photos on Facebook

    • kelly says:

      09:36am | 12/03/10

      agree with zeta, was thinking the same thing myself…. grin

    • Lulu says:

      09:40am | 12/03/10

      Being the mother of a male child . I doubt he would be impressed if you refered to him as anything other than male. What would you prefer us to call you? Gods?
      You take this male female thing way to seriously Eric most of us regard both sexes as people. I am wondering if you are going through menopause

    • dancan says:

      09:46am | 12/03/10

      If these “men” prefer to act like animals then they will be labelled with a title which fits them.  If a male wishes to be called a man then let him act like one first.  Eric, I wouldn’t call you a man or male.  I call you a boy and like a boy you’re crying injustice over semantics. Sad.

    • Reactastic says:

      10:55am | 12/03/10

      Eric isn’t entitled to give an opinion. Discuss.

    • isis says:

      11:05am | 12/03/10

      @Eric, I recently went to a public toilet with labels Male and Female. Where do you go?

    • Ms D Fierce says:

      11:22am | 12/03/10

      I only read started to read The Punch and only every now. But I have quickly cottoned on to the fact that both Eric and formersnag are two individuals whom make no sense at all.  Clearly I must be confused because I am pretty sure during sex ed at school men were referred to as males and women females. And just because men were referred to as males they did not respond by calling women uncovered meat. In fact uncovered meat was covered in home economics. And I am pretty sure in biology we were taught that males are indeed human beings.  I also checked the article and I could only find 3 instances where the term male was used. So I am not sure what subtle misandry Eric is referring to.  And yes Eric I absolutely love and adore men, males and boys…well actually boys in a non sexual way. Thought I had better clarify that as I would hate for you to read any kind of “subtle” inappropriate attitudes in my comment.

    • Bruno says:

      12:14pm | 12/03/10

      Eric’s the only one with the courage to give his opinion, all the feminists just cowardly ganged up on him. So here’s one for the boys, if a girl or woman wants to be a sl&t then good on her, there should be more of them out there, might stop footballers and lonely old blokes going to brothels (nothing against hookers, at least they’re honest in who they are and what they do), but in the words of one of my 6th generation aussie mate ‘bruno, there’s no way i’m introducing that thing to my mother’

    • lol says:

      12:29pm | 12/03/10

      Bruno, it would amaze me if any woman, promiscious or otherwise would actually want to meet YOUR mother….By the sounds of it!!!
      some men do society a favour by sticking to brothels.

    • CoCo says:

      12:45pm | 12/03/10

      @Isis, I go behind a tree.

    • Tom says:

      02:05pm | 12/03/10

      Beth your attempts at superiority ain’t makin’ it .

    • Eric says:

      05:40pm | 12/03/10

      I derive great amusement from these silly personal attacks.

      More, please!

    • Tom says:

      06:42am | 12/03/10

      Eric you are a very odd individual - i have no idea of the point you are tyring to make and i am a ‘male’ .

      Did your girlfriend/wife dump you because you were upset she didnt have your meal on the table at 6 pm sharp?

      Very interesting story - the whole facebook photos thing is a very pertinent dilemma and i for one would like to know more about how these sites work in relation to privacy and copyright rules. It seems to be a very very grey area and it is unfortuante that grubs can use private photos to bully woman and others with their own petty small mindedness.

      I guess it too much to ask people to treat others the way you would want them to treat you or your partner, kids, mother or sisters.

    • Jeremy says:

      09:38am | 12/03/10

      “... private photos…”

      Facebook has “privacy settings” (often changing) but it appears the majority are either not aware or don’t care about them until they suddenly find their “private” photos in groups like the one mentioned.

      While such groups should not exist and should be dealt with when they do, put anything on the Internet and you can no longer consider it private.

    • kels says:

      09:46am | 12/03/10

      Thank god for men like you Tom :o)

    • Jamers Hunter says:

      01:22pm | 12/03/10

      Bec,
      they do not have brain waves.
      bit like Scotty in Star Treck
      “Captain wh have life , but not life as we know it”

    • Michael says:

      04:11pm | 12/03/10

      Private photos belong in an album book.

    • TC says:

      09:22pm | 12/03/10

      I think the problem is that the default privacy setting is a public setting and no one changes it

    • JaneAgatha says:

      06:55am | 12/03/10

      I’ve been wondering… Is what lies behind Eric’s bizarre comments his participation in the offensive FB group…

      Clearly Eric supports the group; feels comfortable referring to women as “uncovered meat”; and apparently considers the burqua to be the most appropriate from of dress for women.

    • Tom (the unsnag) says:

      02:08pm | 12/03/10

      Mobbing Eric isn’t going to add to the debate. Cummon try a bit harder.

    • Eric says:

      05:42pm | 12/03/10

      True, Tom. But it does give me a good laugh.

      I’ve been chuckling about JaneAgatha’s comment all day.

    • Adam Diver says:

      07:00am | 12/03/10

      For gods sake change your privacy settings on facebook and only people you know can access your photos, its not rocket science.

    • Louise says:

      08:21am | 12/03/10

      Completely agree.  This whole situation would never have presented itself if those that felt ridiculed or maligned had with a couple of mouse clicks put their own privacy settings in place.  If you do not want to be held up to ridicule on Facebook by all and sundry limit access to your accounts.  If there are photos of you behaving like a twit then put measures in place yourself to protect yourself.

    • Sam says:

      10:31am | 12/03/10

      They know that they can change their privacy settings, don’t assume they’re dull… but they want to be seen by the whole world. They are living in hope that one day they will be “discovered” and become a “celebrity” and hopefully both will be facilitated by none other than Brad Pitt.

      Women who dress “provocatively” don’t do it by accident. They want more attention than the next woman (it’s a competition), and the attention of one guy is simply not enough for a lot of women. No person who prioritises warmth and comfort over attention would fail to learn that it’s just not warm enough for this little amount of clothing, but if you realise that attention is what they seek above all else then you can sympathise with their sacrifice (ie. wearing so little when it’s just too cold).

    • papachango says:

      01:15pm | 12/03/10

      Agree, but Facebook should change its defualts. I understand if you do nothing that ‘friends of friends’ can see your photos. That’s a lot of people e.g. if the average facebooker has 50 unique friends, thats 50^2 of 2,500 people (who you don’t know from a bar of soap) that can access all your pics.

      The number is likely to be much higher - e.g. I’ve noticed a lot of younger people (teens to mid 20s) are ‘friend whores’ with several hundred Facebook friends, many of whom they barely know in real life. Then there’s always that second cousin who is ‘friends’ with obviously fake profiles Russian Mafioso masquerading as hot blonde American college students.

      The first thing to do is edit the privacy setting for photos to ‘only friends’... and maybe not accept every single friend request.

      I also have a problem with tagging - which puts your pic up on everyone’s news feed. A couple of questions for anyone more familiar with FB than myself (a Gen X luddite)

      1. If someone ‘tags’ you in their own photo and their privacy setting is friends of friends, is they anyway you can stop it (i.e, can you un-tag yourself?)

      2. If you set photos to friends only, but you are ‘tagged’ in one of your own photos by a friend, does that mean your friend’s friends can view it (thus over-riding your own privacy settings)?

      3. Is there a setting to competely disable tagging?

    • sumguy says:

      03:12pm | 12/03/10

      agreed with adam or better yet dont use facebook it an infomation sink they keep every post and all pictures posted to it for ever. the founder of which Mark Zuckerberg is currently under investigation for using the info stored on the facebook servers to hack email accounts of its users.

      http://www.businessinsider.com/mark-zuckerbergs-and-privacy-crimes-2010-3

    • Kathryn says:

      03:16pm | 12/03/10

      papachangp, you can set up a notification that tells you when you are tagged.  You then have the option to remove it.  I don’t believe you can prevent other people from tagging you in their photos, but this option means it doesn’t have to stay.  People can only tag you in their photos, they cannot add a tag to a photo you have loaded on your profile

    • Bon says:

      03:53pm | 12/03/10

      Papachango - yes you can untag yourself.  That doesn’t stop the photo from being able to be viewed by people though, or anyone - depending on the friend’s security settings.  If you have your own photos set to friends only, then only your friends will be able to view them, even if you are tagged by someone.  I don’t know if you can disable tagging, but even if you could it would only work for your own photos, not the ones of you that friends upload.

      The major issue, I think, is the fact that even if you have your own security settings set up so that only friends can see your photos, that doesn’t stop somebody else uploading a photo of you (or your family, children etc) and therefore it being visible to all of that person’s friends.  If the other person is more open with their security settings, then your image could be viewed by anyone - and used by anyone for groups such as the one described in the column.

    • papachango says:

      04:46pm | 12/03/10

      Thanks Kathryn - handy to know.

      I agree with ‘sumguy’—or at the very least just don’t put anything on there that you’re not happy to share with the whole world.

    • BJ says:

      07:33am | 12/03/10

      Yes very unfair of Facebook to let someone who didn’t own any of the photos use them. Adam makes a good point too about changing privacy settings so only people you know can access them. The disbanded group sounds horrendous & is a very sad reflection on what some men think of women.

    • Sam says:

      10:32am | 12/03/10

      A sad reflection on what some men think of *some* women.

      And it’s no sadder than what some women think of some men.

    • Markus says:

      10:42am | 12/03/10

      While I never had a chance to see the site for myself, I have seen many pictures similar to (and worse than) the ones Sarah describes.
      The very commonly used word ‘trashbag’ comes to mind, and is used by women against women just as much as by men.

      This wasn’t a personal invasion of privacy, the girls put these photos up on a publicly viewable profile page.
      Don’t want people making fun of you for looking like a skank? Don’t put up public pictures of yourself acting like a skank!

      Provided the comments weren’t criminal in nature, I don’t see how the site is any different to the multitude of sites and Facebook pages making fun of bogans, emos, gamers, Twilight fans…

    • DocBud says:

      08:10am | 12/03/10

      “In fact, they beg the question of whether or not the underlying issues that may have contributed to the infamous gang rapes of a decade past are simmering once again”

      This is outrageous, there are no mitigating factors to these rapes. Society did not contribute to them. Nothing can justify what these utter scumbags did to the victims. They and they alone were responsible for their revolting actions.

    • Dash says:

      03:43pm | 12/03/10

      Agree wholeheartedly with you there.

    • Kel says:

      05:58pm | 12/03/10

      I agree DocBud. I read that statement to mean “the women contributed to, or did something to deserve the crime that was committed against them”. But then again that’s my interpretation ...

    • grant says:

      08:27am | 12/03/10

      Bec, I’ve been reading the punch since it started and I do note. That all of
      your comments are derogatory to people you disagree with.
      Please do yourself a favour and concerntrate on the issue rather than
      the person.  Simply stating that Eric’s opinion is no good isn’t an argument.
      Eric’s and everyone else have the right to an opinion, so counter his statements
      with your own evidence and points.

    • Simon loves Lambeook.com says:

      08:30am | 12/03/10

      If you act like trash you’ll be treated like garbage.

      Simple as that.

      If you don’t want people seeing your private photos then change your privacy settings or don’t put them on facebook.

      Simple as that.

    • Yas says:

      08:38am | 12/03/10

      “I empathise with burqa wearers because I’d be crushed if I couldn’t wear my crucifix, but then again, I doubt I’d be able to do that in Saudi Arabia or IRAN, so I can’t exactly blame those Australians who are concerned about its wear in their majority-western society.”

      There are many people in Iran who display their Christian faith with pride and are not discriminated against at all, in a country where about 90% of people have the same faith and nationality. Armanian churches from the 14th century are major tourist attractions and in the capital city there is a landmark cathedral with tall crosses clearly visible for all to see. Christians in the country are not vilified by the media and have specific government representation (this includes Jews). Santa Clause can be seen on posters and cards, and Christmas decorations are available too. I grew up there as a child and lived there two years ago. I would not go as far as to say the Islamic republic is all encompassing and accepting or lacks all discrimination; but PLEASE CHECK YOUR FACTS before using sweeping examples that contribute to the radical view of the middle east for which you are getting some kind of doctorate.

    • James1 says:

      09:33am | 12/03/10

      In any case, I would not hold up Saudi Arabia or Iran as a model of behaviour for a Western liberal democratic state.  I would say that because those countries would not let you do such a thing is the best reason why we should allow people to dress as they want.

    • Maq says:

      08:40am | 12/03/10

      Sarah,

      The only problem that I have with your piece is that you’re building assumptions about men around a group that had perhaps a few hundred or a few thousand members:

      “But considering the comments I recently read in that recent Facebook group, there is a bigger debate at stake.”

      Facebook has an active membership in excess of 400 million. The participation of a few hundred or a few thousand people does not signal a “bigger debate”. It signals that there are a few hundred or a few thousand dickheads - welcome to community (online or otherwise) living. I don’t agree with, condone or support the views of the membership, nor would I agree with, condone or support the views of the membership of the “my boyfriend is a wanker” group(s) - of which I am sure there are many.

      There are many arguments to be made about the state of equality (the gender pay gap is a pretty good one) but citing the membership of a small group of idiots (whose opinions most men would find disagreeable) does not a strong argument make.

    • Andrew says:

      08:50am | 12/03/10

      I thought this article was going to be interesting but it doesn’t really say anything. How did we go from a discussion about intrusion of privacy and the misuse of the internet to whether or not people should be allowed to wear the Burqa?

      The author carefully steps around insult any particular ethnic group and lumps all “males” in together. Frankly that’s insulting.

      I am the father of 2 girls and I have three sisters. I fear the sexualisation of young girls and I abhor the Muslim (yes I said it) attitude toward to education and treatment of women. Having said that young girls get such terrible conflicting messages about how to behave.

      On the one hand respect yourself, be confident and independent. On the other dress like a stripper and use your sexuality to try to get whatever you can.

      I have no doubt that both young men and women need to be taught self respect and self discipline but what hope do they have with the current media circus and cult of celebrity.

      In the end this article does nothing except invite women to say the author is right and women are discriminated against whilst on the other side of the coin it insults men who might otherwise be sympathetic to some of the authors comments.

      Young men face a difficult problem, on the one hand they want to respect women on the other they walk in to a club or pub and are confronted by young girls dressed in a manner that would make a prostitute blush. What to do?

    • Frank says:

      08:58am | 12/03/10

      As a single male, catholic, anglo-saxon, I don’t quite see what all the hoo-haa is about. While I find any discrimination or stereotyping based on race/sex unacceptable, if I saw one of these girls with a bottle in their hand, struggling to stand, aggressively snogging a guy in the middle of the street, my first thought would be: ‘Not wife material’!! I find that sort of behaviour by men or women as degrading to themselves and plain stupid. As for the privacy of photos, I imagine anyone who displays this kind of behaviour has their facebook privacy settings set to minnimum - in today’s world of twitter and celebritism, they want the world to know. So really there’s no one else to blame.

    • Tim says:

      09:29am | 12/03/10

      Agree 100%.
      how hard is it to change the privacy settings on Facebook?
      If you can’t handle a negative reaction, maybe you shouldn’t post photos of yourself and your friends completely maggot, half naked at 4am in Kings Cross?
      People post these photos because they want them to be seen.

    • Clair says:

      09:10am | 12/03/10

      If they are want to share these kinds of photos on the internet for everyone to view then they deserve any ridicule they get! I hate this everyone is a victim mentality, no they are not victims they are dumb.

    • DG says:

      09:10am | 12/03/10

      Bad news, we are never “going to be on the same page” when it comes to passing judgment on others.

      There is no “right and wrong” when it comes to clothing. It’s a personal choice. some people are going to mock you for your choice. At least when it comes to clothing it is a choice.

      You can choose to dress in an unusual way and get mocked for it (goths for example) or you can dress like every one else - the same is true for behaviour (whether it be the decision to drink/not drink, decision to/not to participate in casual sex, stay at home with your parents until 30/25/20/18).

      People don’t like it when others behave “differently” because it makes them question their own behaviour, many even take it as challenging their behaviour (If you’ve ever been the “odd one out” you’ll know what I mean).

      For those that aren’t familiar with the idea of being the odd one out - I’m a non-drinker. At high school I was threatened and bullied for being a “goody-goody” because I didn’t drink. Some just had a laugh at my expense, others got violent as if my decision not to drink was a stand against their decision to drink. If that wasn’t bad enough, when my fellow students learned I believed in no-sex till marriage (despite being an atheist) the decided I must be gay and women accused me of being sexist and as being against their right to have sex with whoever they wanted. Despite the fact that I didn’t care who they had sex with, never suggested that they shouldn’t be having sex or anything of the like. I should point out that there were many that were completely fine with our different lifestyles, but there was a vocal and violent minority that were never going to change their ways.

      At the time I found it rather traumatic, in retrospect I find it rather ironic that I was completely accepting of their life style choices, yet they were abusing me for my lifestyle choices - and at the same time screaming about their right to behave as they liked.

      I would conclude by simply observing that people have the right to dress or behave however they like. The consequences of those choices are unavoidable. There will always be parts of society that will feel challenged by the choices of others - the only real option is to avoid those sections of the community. Even with the benefit of hind sight I do not feel that those students should have been prevented from saying the hurtful things they said as they attempted to justify their own lifestyle choices and to condemn mine. I only take issue with those instances where they threatened, or carried out, violence.

    • Weeping for youth says:

      09:24am | 12/03/10

      I quite agree, although I would add the comment “provided peoples choices, don’t harm others”.

      The pressure to drink heavily in high school (I suppose drugs these days) was high.

      I went to a very exclusive private school and the binge drinking culture was rampart. I carried it through university and really didn’t get rid of it until I had kids.

      I caught up with a school friend the other day afternoon and asked if he wanted to go for a beer. He turned to me and said, “I’d love to mate, but if I have one I’ll have 20.” Sad isn’t it.

    • DG says:

      10:16am | 12/03/10

      Weeping for youth:

      That “don’t harm others” is a bit of a grey area.
      If you are suggesting that “don’t harm others” is about causing physical harm to another person without the consent of that other person, I would agree. If it comes to the sensibilities of that other person, I happen to disagree.

      I suffered psychological harm as a result of the years of harassment that, I believe, grew from the fact that my views were perceived as a challenge to those that held contrary views. A few years of counselling and the like, and I’m about as “over it” as I am ever going to be.

      Even so, I do not suggest that others should have been forced to accept me into their clique, refrain from pointing out that I wasn’t welcome or otherwise suggest that they approved of my behaviour or my choice. Nor do I suggest that their comments about me personally should have been prohibited. I would hope that they had the maturity to adopt the same “live and let live” philosophy that I had adopted, but at the same time I respect their right to say what they feel they need to say to protect their way of life. I don’t agree with what they are saying, nor do I think that it is fair, but I respect their right to say it .

      The point is that I had a choice, any day I could have changed my behaviour and the problem would have gone away. I may have felt bad about it, or felt guilty, but it was my choice. I chose to stick to my beliefs, knowing the consequences. I live with those consequences as a badge of honour - being true to my values was more important than giving in to others to bring respite from the actions of others is the behaviour that I expect of myself, and that experience proves that I am true to my word and my values in the face of adversity. As I said, it was my choice, I hope I have the courage to behave the same way if a similar situation arises (i.e that I don’t turn aside from my values in the pursuit of “happiness”).

      That said, I acknowledge that my values may change during my lifetime as a result of personal experience and so forth, but still, I hope that I can live such that change comes from a change in belief rather than self interest.

    • Weeping for youth says:

      10:34am | 12/03/10

      I mean physical voilence or the threat of physical voilence by way of intimidation.

    • Pommyman says:

      06:49am | 14/03/10

      People are idiots. Hypocritical, violent, generalising idiots. I see it everyday, and even include myself in with them. This planet needs an enema, and it better come soon. With 90% of the population gone, maybe we can start again fresh. Though I doubt it.

    • G says:

      09:16am | 12/03/10

      The Burqa issue, is that what your talking about Sarah?  I’m not sure what the point of your piece is, something about facebook and burqas..

      On the note of the Burqa.  We are supposed to live in a democratic free society in Australia.  If someone wishes to wear a burqa then they can, if someone wishes to wear a short skirt they can.

      We can’t say everyone can have the freedom, oh, but not when its to do with a burqa.

    • Andrew says:

      09:51am | 12/03/10

      Si by that reasoning, if someone wants to wear a motorcycle helmet in to a bank they can?
      I someone wants to walk the streets in a balaclave they can?
      I believe a Burqa is a form of degradation to women and an insult to men. Yes an insult. Don’t look at my wife, daughter etc because you won’t be able to control yourself. It is another demonstration of islam treating women as possessions (livestock) rather than people in their own right.
      Burqa’s are blight on any thinking society. The French have the right idea banning them in schools.

    • J says:

      09:55am | 12/03/10

      My issue G, is that if someone started a site attacking & making judgements about women wearing burquas, they would be condemned as racist, prejudice, the whole lot…..
      Take young girls private photos and make a site like the one sarah mentions and see if they are labelled the same….

    • DG says:

      10:24am | 12/03/10

      “if someone wants to wear a motorcycle helmet in to a bank they can?”

      Nope. The owner of private premises should be free to prohibit a person access to their premises/services on whatever basis of “personal choice” basis they so determine. i.e they should not be permitted to to stop a person from accessing on the basis of things that they have no control over, such as gender, height, race (except on safety grounds - i.e persons below or above a certain height my be at risk of harm).

    • Andrew says:

      10:33am | 12/03/10

      SO what do you think the outcry would be if banks or any other owners of private premises banned burqa wearing people from entering their store?

    • DG says:

      10:50am | 12/03/10

      I agree that there would be a huge outcry, that would be the consequence of the choice made by the business. If the outcry were great enough the business would go broke or change it’s policy, and the problem would be resolved.

      The out cry is the vocal minority (in the vast majority of case), most people just accept change, grumble and get on with life. If enough people complain long and loud enough change will be made in accordance with the outcry. In the absence of, or in the presence of insufficient, outcry the population is taken to have agreed to maintain the status quo.

    • Sarah Ayoub says:

      12:35pm | 12/03/10

      HI G, This piece was a response to the Burqa debate. I dont really have a problem with it, but I was just trying to say that before we address an issue that is not so prevalant in our society (because only a small minority wear it) we need to address issues of women being sexually assaulted (as the comments on the Facebook group suggested they should be) for not dressing a certain way either. It’s more about not jumping the gun and addressing burqas, before we ensure that it’s not an excuse for SOME MALES to feel that they can vilify women who don’t represent necessarily ideal modes of dress. Based on many of the comments here, I feel that my point was sorely missed. I know that there are settings on facebook that allow you to control your privacy for example, but women dont just dress like that on facebook. They wear those clothes out, and if someone thinks its an excuse to rape them, then that’s just wrong. so I am saying that we need to look at the problems with this behaviour, before addressing problems associated with the Burqa. It’s a one issue at a time kind of thing…

    • Jamers Hunter says:

      01:26pm | 12/03/10

      Just this week three burqa wearing terrorists wearing body bombs blew themselves and others up in Iraq.
      themselves no loss but the others could be you in an australian bank, train whatever.
      come to think on it with your vies that might not be any loss either
      but it could be me and that is important.to me

    • Ricky says:

      01:26pm | 12/03/10

      The Burka is foriegn, alien & creepy.It represents everything that is wrong with a trouble making minority & should be banned.Have a good day everyone!

    • J says:

      09:20am | 12/03/10

      The simple answer to this is to not put photos on Facebook that you wouldn’t be happy for your grandmother to see.  If you don’t put compromising photos up, then no one can use them against you.

      Re: the burqua, I have no problem with women wearing it, provided no one is forcing them too.  If you live in Australia, you should be expected to adopt some of ways of life, which include individual freedom of choice.  I respect other countries customs when I am overseas, the same applies here.

      You can’t demand respect from another person when you don’t respect yourself.  Abusing alcohol, dancing and dressing like a whore, posting photos of drinking/sexual exploits on Facebook - none of these invite respect, because the girls doing it don’t respect themselves.

    • Fair's fair. says:

      09:58am | 12/03/10

      J, do you apply the same logic to young men who disgrace themselves?? With photos of them blind drunk, running around nude, posting sexual explots of facebook and the like?? Or is it ‘different’ for young men? I truly hope your answer is no, otherwise you’re part of the bigger sexist problem at hand here.

    • J says:

      10:23am | 12/03/10

      I’m sorry, I thought the article was about women.  I figured readers would understand that I meant both sides, however if it helps to spell it out, then all people, regardless of age, sex, orientation, religion, cannot demand respect from their fellow humans without first respecting themselves.

      I was speaking as a woman too, btw.

    • hum says:

      03:49pm | 12/03/10

      While I don’t disagree with you entirely - people should indeed be very careful about what they allow onto their FB pages, I do have to disagree in part, to your last paragraph.
      They may not invite respect, but the pigs who created that FB group should certainly have had some serious consequences imposed on them. If I made similar comments about Muslim women, I would have been labeled a revolting racist, and rightly so. So why do these men feel that they have the right to comment thusly on young girls who (while yes, acting silly) most certainly do not deserve to be treated as “uncovered meat” and CERTAINLY have not invited upon themselves the inherent dangers of displaying themselves in such a fashion.
      If the men who are being mentioned in the article, have such difficulty in controlling their urges, they need to be locked up.

    • Bennymac says:

      01:03pm | 13/03/10

      J, Your drawing a very long bow suggesting that any girl who goes out dancing on a saturday night in a short skirt, and has a drink is lacking self respect. Consumption of alcahol, dancing, and not being covered from head to toe has been part of western culture for over a thousand years. Relationships built on these so called, self degrading practises have made this wonderful, accepting, peaceful community we live in what it is. Airing such a viewpoint only reinforces the beleifs of the “not marriage material” Facebook group members, and when they, or another likeminded individual bump into a girl, on her way home from the pub on a sat night, he can reflect upon your post and say to himself, NO this whore isn’t deserving of my respect.

    • Barx says:

      09:23am | 12/03/10

      I’m sorry, but I remember the Shiek’s speech clearly. I remember the morning it was news and the uproar was in full swing.

      Not 15 minutes later did I get an email titled ‘Funny T-SHIRTS’. Upon opening it I was greeted with an array of women wearing T-shirts with slogans like ‘I’m not Mrs Right, but I’ll do until she comes along’, ‘Face it you would go to Jail for this’, ‘You’ve been a bad boy, go to my room’ etc etc.

      And I remember clearly thinking, in a blinding moment of clarity… y’know maybe the guy has a point. Of course Rape is unacceptable, but too many young women skank it around in some misguided attempt to attract ‘men’ (and I use that term loosely) and then complain when they get used and discarded.

      Girls, you want to act like a H0, don’t complain when you get treated like one. Oh, and yes, we do care how many men you’ve been with.

    • James1 says:

      09:48am | 12/03/10

      You make some good points Barx.  One thing that my hijab wearing friends have over the kind of women we see in the photo posted above is dignity.  They carry themselves with a dignity that many short skirt-wearers can only dream about.

    • MK says:

      09:51am | 12/03/10

      You really don’t sound like much of a catch yourself Barx, rather threatened & insecure…
      If you going to refer to women as ‘skanks’ and ‘ho’s’....maybe that ‘ideal’ is all your destined to attract in your sad life.

    • Disgusted says:

      10:01am | 12/03/10

      Dignity is not defined by what you wear….How shallow can you be James1??? I feel really sorry for you. I’m glad my hijab friends would never, ever, be as shallow, prejudice, threatened, and downright misguided as you. That is one of the worst posts I’ve seen on the punch.
      Did suicide bombers who wore the hijab and killed innocent people have more dignity than women who didn’t???
      I hope you’re judged as harshly as you’ve decided to judge others.

    • Barx says:

      10:17am | 12/03/10

      @MK I’m married to my highschool sweetheart. I can assure you my life is good. Reeeeeeeeally good.

      I just say it as I see it, and I have seen it many times, with mates and girls on both sides. They behave like fools and attract the wrong types. Then wonder why they get used and abused. If a woman or man wants to act like a cheap low rent type, then that is what they will attract and in turn, how they will be treated.

      And yes I am equal opportunity in this - I don’t believe it is OK for a guy to go shagging everything that moves, and then expect a nice respectable girl to settle down with him either without some issues about his past.

    • James1 says:

      10:19am | 12/03/10

      Hi Disgusted,

      I was making the point that it is much harder to be dignified when your buttocks are hanging out than when you have them safely tucked away.  I suppose you think exposed buttocks are dignified, judging by your response.  If that is how you define dignity, I pity you, and your children.

      However, you are right that dignity can not be defined by what you wear alone, and that is only one aspect of my judgments regarding dignity.  The clothes are only one symptom of their lack of self respect, and the article actually lists many other symptoms.  I have always thought that one cannot have dignity unless one has self respect, and no one who respects themselves would act, dress, or live as those people (male and female) do.  Furthermore, equating a hijab wearer with a suicide bomber is a pretty crass generalisation, and if that is how shallow and prejudiced you are, then I hope others judge you as you’ve decided to judge others.

    • Tim says:

      10:20am | 12/03/10

      MK,
      Can’t handle the truth?

    • James1 says:

      10:21am | 12/03/10

      I should probably add that all of my non-hijab wearing friends also have far more dignity than the type of women in the photo as well.  Again, it is their self-respect that prevents them from acting in such an undignified fashion - and again the way they choose to dress is only one facet of their dignity.

    • DG says:

      10:39am | 12/03/10

      @Disgusted:

      Dignity: “bearing, conduct, or speech indicative of self-respect or appreciation of the formality or gravity of an occasion or situation”.

      I would suggest that dignity is determined by the choices one makes, from the clothes they wear, the language they use and the things they do.

      Choices in one area may be such that it outweighs the persons choices in another area. For example - you raised the dignity of suicide bombers. Some of their choices were, without doubt, but they are defined by one choice that is not “dignified”.

      Then again, it is highly subjective. Some may believe that showing the courage and determination to sacrifice one’s self for one’s beliefs of self respect, and as such, dignified behaviour.

      Personally, I don’t agree. I am not of the opinion that harming another person without lawful excuse is “dignified”. But violence in the name of “right” has long been accepted by many as a dignified approach to change.

    • MK says:

      10:46am | 12/03/10

      Can’t handle the truth of what?!? That there are sexist comments out there?? I am a self-respecting woman, and luckily, with a loving and wonderful partner. I’ve always dressed in a way that makes me feel most comfortable. I do know some young girls who are follow fashion trends that may or may not be deemed ‘scantily clad’ - if people don’t like it from a fashion perspective - more than fine. But to imply what some of the comments on here are saying, about who they are as people & what they ‘deserve’, is not only judgemental, it’s dangerous.
      I am GLAD to hear Barx applies the logic to men as well however, at least there is some sense equailty within you.

    • Jamers Hunter says:

      01:48pm | 12/03/10

      James 1 you are like Eric

      you stupidity and social irresponsibility are a match for your arrogance and shoddy values.

    • WK says:

      09:44am | 12/03/10

      Sarah, your last paragraph is fantastic. The attitudes of young men (regardless of their background) who formed a site like this, and published such horrid comments, are really disturbing.
      I agree that men & women unfortunately leave themselves open to ridicule with certain photos on facebook, but making demeaning judgements & comments and suggesting it justifies sexual assault is and should be unacceptable in australian society. Who raises these young men??? 
      Sadly, I know innocent girls who were verbally abused & threatened on cronulla beach…..I’m sorry to say, but it was by men of middle eastern origin, simply because they were female & wearing bikini’s at the beach… Instances like this were ignored by many, but not the community, and anger soars until you get a horrific reaction like the cronulla riots…

    • WK says:

      09:45am | 12/03/10

      Sarah, your last paragraph is fantastic. The attitudes of young men (regardless of their background) who formed a site like this, and published such horrid comments, are really disturbing.
      I agree that men & women unfortunately leave themselves open to ridicule with certain photos on facebook, but making demeaning judgements & comments and suggesting it justifies sexual assault is and should be unacceptable in australian society. Who raises these young men??? 
      Sadly, I know innocent girls who were verbally abused & threatened on cronulla beach…..I’m sorry to say, but it was by men of middle eastern origin, simply because they were female & wearing bikini’s at the beach… Instances like this were ignored by many, but not the community, and anger soars until you get a horrific reaction like the cronulla riots…

    • Tim says:

      11:07am | 12/03/10

      I think there is a massive difference between abusing or threatening people in a public place to making comments on Facebook.
      If you want to make you photos private, you can change your privacy settings. These photos have been purposely posted to be seen.
      If you don’t want negative comments about your photos don’t put them out there.

    • SarahJaneJones says:

      10:05am | 12/03/10

      I find that whining about having your “private” facebook photos be used by other people is ridiculous. Regardless of privacy settings, this is the internet. Treat everything you put up here as public knowledge. I have the “courier mail test” Would I be happy to see that picture or quote on the front page of the courier mail? If no, don’t put it on the internet.

    • they deserve each other... says:

      10:11am | 12/03/10

      lol - look out eric….Formersnag is a ‘tough lover’...grrr.. :-p

    • G says:

      10:31am | 12/03/10

      @ Andrew

      I disagree.

      It fits nice in with your view on the world that the burqa is a mark of oppression.
      But, can you see how the idea of forcing a person to not wear something that you dislike because you think it is oppressive, means you are actually being oppressive yourself?

      A particular person may have many reasons for wearing it, which I assume include religious reasons, (a different definition) of modesty, or in fact may be forced in to it by their husbands or they simply may feel more comfortable with the burqa on, I don’t know I’m not a Muslim woman, (any Muslim women reading here want to comment on the reason for wearing the burqa)?

      You need to consider that people’s freedoms, especially freedom of speech sometimes will confront and offend.  However, no one has the unequivocally right to NOT be offended or insulted, and is not a legitimate reason to limit the right to freedom of another person or to force people to change their beliefs and ways of life.

    • Andrew says:

      11:04am | 12/03/10

      I hear what you say but let’s be realistic. Islamic culture is fundamentally tilted against women, women’s education, women’s rights etc. I do not want that culture pervading Australia. I for one don’t want immigrants to Australia bringing with them attitudes and culture diametrically opposed to our social fabric and then crying foul when we object to them.
      I am open minded and progressive but don’t you understand by being as understanding and progressive as you are you allow those who wish to perpetuate the discrimination the perfect excuse to do so.
      It’s political correctness gone mad.
      Does an islamic father have the right to beat his daughter to death because she marries against his wishes? Cna he plead, cultural responsibility?

    • Cuppa says:

      01:37pm | 12/03/10

      Well said Andrew.Spot on.I think a lot of Australians feel the same(at least the ones i have spoken to)

    • DG says:

      03:03pm | 12/03/10

      “Islamic culture is fundamentally tilted against women, women’s education, women’s rights etc.”

      Just like Christian culture, some parts of that culture are more open and understanding, others (such as the Catholic Church) are not. Catholics are also against homosexuality, and other activities that we allow in this country. Should we ban the wearing of the cross because some people of that faith, in this country, hold views that are inconsistent with what society considers acceptable?

      If a person wants to cover themselves, they should be allowed to - bombs can be hidden under a nun’s habit, football jersey, rain coat or other clothing, just as easily as under the Muslim religious dress.

      Again, draw the line between a choice that a person makes in respect of themselves, and the use of physical force.

      The situations that Andrew describes are already criminal offences. No one is suggesting that a person should be permitted to use force on another person. But choosing their clothes? No one is suggesting that people in this county should be excluded from our laws. I ame saying that a law telling people that they aren’t allowed to wear certain religious attire in public places is offensive.

      I would add, where a person chooses to wear religious dress for fear that they would be excluded from their family that is a choice they make. Just as gay people choose to hide their sexuality because it makes their life easier.

    • Othello Cat says:

      10:31am | 12/03/10

      What is so awful about being deemed “not marriage material” anyway? Oh, because it is based on some arrogant assumption that every girl wants to get married.

      Are not most divorces initated by women? There has been oft-quoted statistics that show over and over again that married men are happier than single men; that single women are happier than married women; that married men are less likely to commit crime or commit suicide. Murdered wives and girlfriends most likely to meet their death when they tell their partner they want to end the relationship.  Considering all that, a gal should be pleased to be “not marriage material.”

      It never ceases to amaze me how many guys bung on a whinge about chicks who want to “mate for life” who are then stunned when a bird tells them she really does only wants a fling. It seems that these egotistical blokes are seeking committment-prone women just so as to have the perverse joy of refusing that commitment. Yet it seems that men are the ones who pine to be marriage material.

    • aus says:

      10:51am | 12/03/10

      AGREE 100%! Perfectly said grin In modern society, men are more keen on marriage than women are…But many are scared to face that truth.

    • Tim says:

      11:46am | 12/03/10

      What studies are you reading?
      Although marriage does improve outcomes for men more than women, married women are more likely to be or have:
      Healthier (married women live longer)
      Richer (unless they have kids, but this goes for men too)
      Better Sex Lives (married women have far more sex than singles. Although quantity vs quality could be an issue)
      Better Mental Health
      Less Likely to be victims of crime (single women are far more likely to be raped, assaulted and robbed than married women).

      Married women on the whole do far better than singles.

    • Tom (the unsnag) says:

      02:19pm | 12/03/10

      Divorces initiated by women. It is called the Heather Mills syndrome.

    • G says:

      11:40am | 12/03/10

      @ Andrew

      Yeah fair enough, I agree with that, from what I know of Islamic culture it appears to be misogynistic and I do not wish for that to be integrated in to our society.

      So for example, in Australia, if a Muslim woman is wearing the Burqa because it is her personal choice then I think she has the right to wear it.  However, if she is wearing it because she is being forced to by another person to wear it then I don’t think that is acceptable.

    • Andrew says:

      12:26pm | 12/03/10

      How do you tell if its her choice?

      I was recently in the Whitsundays and a Muslim bloke was wearing boardies and thongs whilst his wife was wearing full coverage (including would you believe it gloves. It blew me away! I find it hard to believe it was her choice. Further, by cultural reference they were effectively insulting every women there dressed in a bikini. I can tell you it made everyone feel uncomfortable.

    • thought says:

      11:57am | 12/03/10

      Ultimately, I’m not too fussed about a few nasty people on facebook discussing whether certain girls are ‘marriage material’...
      As I’m free to decide on what kind of men I deem ‘marriage material’...
      Ones that feel the need to degrade women aren’t on my list, and wouldn’t be on a self respecting woman’s I’d imagine.

    • IMHO says:

      12:08pm | 12/03/10

      I found this a difficult article to read. Sentence construction was quite poor. I had to read some sentences several times to try to understand the point being made. For example: “The column received a number of comments but still, no issue was reached.” I still don’t quite understand this sentence let alone the point being made. In the end I’m not sure any point is being made with any clarity. Just a succession of confused, poorly written statements.

      People should take responsibilty for any photos they post anywhere on the net, and manage their privacy settings appropriately. Even so, young people, of all people, should understand that nothing online is private.
      How did we get onto Burqa wearing anyway?

      Sentence construction: fail

      Clear presentation of the argument: fail

    • BMJ says:

      12:15pm | 12/03/10

      People have such elevated expectations of the internet. They think it should be a beacon of morality and general good behaviour. These are usually people that use the net for myspace/facebook/twitter. They also take the internet way too seriously.

    • G says:

      02:00pm | 12/03/10

      @ Andrew

      “How do you tell if its her choice?”

      -  Unfortunately we can’t tell whether or not it is her choice…

      “I was recently in the Whitsundays and a Muslim bloke…”

      -  I don’t like that they have to cover up like that at a beach, it must be uncomfortable.  But that doesn’t mean we can impose our dress standards and make her wear a bikini at the beach.

      Perhaps the lady covered up found the girls in bikini’s offensive, the distinction here is as long as she doesn’t try to make those girls cover-up then she can be offended all she likes by the bikini. 

      She should not be able to make our women cover-up as soon as our women can make her uncover.

      Although personally, I prefer any attractive woman to wear no pants.  Now I know I can’t make them wear no pants… but that’s just me…!

    • Kallan says:

      02:37pm | 12/03/10

      A good guide to facebook is this:

      If you put something on their, expect to recieve negative comments. Thats the way of the beast. Its a narcissist tool, but you’ll find that it can and will backfire.

      People who get uppity about this either need too A) control both their friendslist and their privacy settings better, or B) Stop putting crap on their profiles!

    • Freedom Yes says:

      02:38pm | 12/03/10

      Andrew is spot on.                                                                  People who wish to subjugate the fairer sex should be dissuaded from entering this country; and if already here, return to where it is acceptible!                  Women are free here and must remain so..

    • G says:

      02:47pm | 12/03/10

      So let me get this straight…

      Your idea of ensuring freedom for these women is by forcing them not to dress in something that you find offensive?

      You guys have a kinda messed up definition of freedoms.  It means they have the right to do something that you might find offensive (as long as it doesn’t harm others and isn’t illegal).

      I find pants offensive on attractive women, but that doesn’t mean I can make them take them off, right?

    • ts says:

      02:54pm | 12/03/10

      i’m guessing you’ve never been over to vice and checked out their do’s and don’ts… this is not some recent phenomenon.  pretty sure they’ve been going strong for 15 years or so.

    • Davido says:

      03:55pm | 12/03/10

      Simple answer - dont post photos of yourself on the internet.

      Complex answer - dont do anything you wouldnt mind everyone knowing about.

      Social networking hasnt taken on all sorts of insidious twists and turns in recent years. Personally I am opting out of the whole thing for the time being.

    • Gomez12 says:

      04:18pm | 12/03/10

      “And despite the fact that the group contained a majority membership of males of the Islamic faith, I feel that the attitudes prevalent in the now defunct group reflect a bigger social problem”

      Because of course the cultural and religious views of males of the islamic faith have nothing at all to do with their views and treatment of women and of what would qualify as a marriage candidate…. And of course the majority membership of a group would have nothing to do with the demographic that agrees with that viewpoint. Probably all a coincidence.

      Far better to simply have a crack at all males in general than focus on the social dynamite that would result from questioning the interactions of various faiths/cultures in a multicultural community.

    • Charles Kelly says:

      06:21pm | 15/03/10

      Spot on Gomez12. While the majority of people insist on blindly subscribing to ignorant PC dogma, the real issues will continually fail to be sufficiently addressed. Sarah Ayoub is clearly part of the problem, not the solution.

    • Dave B says:

      07:10pm | 12/03/10

      Yeah yeah yeah and its all blah blah blah as stated in other comments….This is the nature of the BEAST (the internet) and its not only facebook, My wife goes on EB and they have women attacking women and I believe some are men in womens clothing…BOTTOM LINE you control what you let out there so when it comes back and bites your bum dont come whinging that youve been demonised…. There are plenty of sick puppies out there that maybe use this for self gratification, cause in the real world face to face they wouldnt make the cut, so belittling others while hiding behind a monitor will elevate them to the top of their dung heap. Girls ,ladies and all women dont get in a position that allow these maggots to breed, have a bit of self respect and you might go home with a nice man that will love you and treat you good.

    • Shaun says:

      11:34pm | 12/03/10

      A good guide is don’t take advice from a self confessed nerd.

    • The Overlord says:

      12:50pm | 13/03/10

      Ah, yes.  The Middle Eastern mindset.  So archaic and so incompatible with Western culture.  Why do they come?

    • kris says:

      03:14pm | 13/03/10

      how about instead of admonishing women for not keeping their photos private and keeping modest, we strive to be less horrifically judgemental; men and women?
      in the mean time, anyone wanting access to my very dull photo albums are welcome to form any opinion they’d like. i’m not interested in whether or not anyone thinks i am ‘good marriage material’ or whether i need to get out more often.

    • poonta says:

      04:07pm | 13/03/10

      Remember:
      a key that opens many locks is a master key. a lock that is opened by many keys is a shitty lock.

      also, roosters roost, hens dont. so stick to laying eggs, okay?

    • Gaybriel says:

      05:27pm | 13/03/10

      Please tell me what Saudi Arabia’s policy regarding religious wear has to do with Australia allowing women to wear the burqa. This kind of twisted logic always boggles my mind- since when has Australia sought to emulate Saudi Arabian society in any way? I believe the answer is never, so why, if Australians find their stance on personal freedoms to be so repugnant, are discussions regarding banning the burqa continually peppered with jusitifications of this violation of personal freedom which cite Saudi Arabia as the source? Am I the only one this doesn’t make any sense to?

    • Jojo says:

      05:51pm | 13/03/10

      My take on the whole issue:

      Young men and women today have been brought up in a self-obsessed, overly self-conscious and selfish culture of self-entitlement -be it from overindulgent parents lack of proper parenting, moral guidance and boundaries to the present day popular culture encouraging young people to aspire to be selfish, over sexualised and horrible individuals.

      Everything reflects off them, everything reflects off their needs and desires. They demand instant gratification or else they throw a big fit or become destructive and resentment.
      This is made as a general statement from the observation and interaction of youths today, especially in Australia.

      Its not about pointing fingers at either sex. Men and women compliment one another, and masculine and feminine qualities and attributes are what makes our society and world so unique.
      It takes two hands on clap.

      On one hand you have women who behave like men. Loud, rude, obnoxious. Over-sexualised and promiscuous.
      Lack of etiquette and sense of decency when out in public and in the company of men and their fellow women.
      Many are attention whores - they dress outrageously (I only had to drive past a club during winter to be flabbergasted by the way women dress. So trashy! Has classy become passe?) and behave outrageously.
      Many believe that they have to be promiscuous and tease men by behaving ‘easy’ and use their sexuality as ‘bait’ to get a man interested.
      How could you respect a woman like that?
      This is why a western woman who travels to Asia ends up being ‘propositioned’ as though she is a hooker or an ‘easy woman’ - many times she is so ignorant of the culture there (i.e.“If I can dress in a mini skirt in Australia, I can do so in Saudi Arabia”)  and behaves the way she does - she is shocked, insulted.
      The reality is that the way women have behaved has become so far off how she should conduct herself : She is over-masculine, loud and brash instead of behaving in a classy, respectful manner and practicing wit.

      Many young men behave like chimpanzees. Loud, rude, obnoxious, irresponsible. They expect women to behave like cheap prostitutes - giving themselves freely to any male that tries to ‘woo’ them without a relationship. They get angry when a woman does not respond favourably to their advances.

      They behave recklessly, are not respectful to their elders or authorities and there are no consequences for their actions!
      Not only that, they are rowdy and disrespectful to everyone, including women!
      When it comes to a relationship, both are quick to exchange partners or commit adultery as though there was no relationship at all!
      Most shocking of all, they never seem to grow up!

      There seems to be a general trend of young men who age but never ‘grow up’ and behave like irresponsible teenagers at the age of 30, and young women who are expected to ‘grow up’ younger and younger and behave/partake in sexually charged and outrageous behaviour!

      How can you expect any side to respect or cooperate one another when they both have so much to clean up on their side?

      As for burqas, my problem is not the burqa itself.
      Its the behaviour behind a burqa. If it is used as a personal reflection of faith so be it.
      But many use it to hide behind radical thought, action and behaviour which is just unacceptable. Many (not all) are non-budging in their so-called ‘beliefs’.
      For example, a woman wearing a burqa wears one to prevent her beauty from arousing the desire of men. That is understandable considering our present Australian culture today - many men, not all, behave very rowdily and obnoxiously. (although believe it or not, this behaviour happens to a woman who DOES NOT wear a burqa in some Islamic countries).
      However, when it comes to an innocent ascertaining of identity to fulfill a non-sexual/ill-intentioned purpose, the woman is permitted to flash her face to 1. A female 2. A male authority if there is no female and if absolutely necessary.
      So cases where a woman refuses to take her picture for an identity card (i.e driver’s license) without her burqa is not only using her faith as an excuse and a scapegoat for flagrant flouting of the law, she is also creating an atmosphere of “If she can do it, why can’t I” for every other minority who can and will stake a claim on cultural/religious reasons if the state allows her refusal for a necessity.
      I have many Muslim friends. Many are of the belief that the burqa religiously isn’t compulsory and most importantly if a Muslim lives in a non-Muslim country they cannot flout the laws of the land or demand ‘special treatment’.
      “If your faith is so important regardless of the difficulties involved you *will* make the compromise or sacrifice for it in any circumstance. Not demand others bow to your demands to make *your* job easier.” This was what a Muslim friend of mine said. His father is an imam (priest) of a well-known Mosque.

    • Moira says:

      07:50pm | 13/03/10

      “Like most females, I am prone to that odd bit of judgment.”

      Sarah, don’t hide behind tired old gendered stereotypes.  If you are a judgmental person then just say so. I think you’ll find that intelligent women are a little bored of being categorized in such a way (especially by other women!)  Sounds like you’ve just read “Men are from Mars , Women are from venus’ or whatever that tripe was called.

    • Miles says:

      02:11pm | 14/03/10

      It’s ironic isn’t it…..All these girls putting stupid / inappropriate photos on a the web (a PUBLIC forum) in a bid to gain more desperate attention….and then get upset when they do get attention (just not the sort they were bargaining for).  Honestly, common sense seems to have gone out of the window with the current generation.

      People always judge other people - it is a fact.  Whether it is an outspoken judgement or not is a different thing all together.

      If these girls (and guys for that matter) don’t want to be judged, then don’t supply the world with material upon which you are likely to be judged!!

    • Bon says:

      01:56pm | 15/03/10

      Whether or not you are judged by somebody is nothing to do with you.  It is all about the person doing the judging. You cannot prevent someone from judging you - you just can’t. It doesn’t matter what you wear, how you talk, how you conduct yourself in public, what photos are on your FB profile.  You will get judged, positively or negatively, and there is nothing you can do.  Most of the time the judgement is not spoken, but it still happens.  It really annoys me how people keep blaming the girls in the photos for the fact that their photos were used against their will for public humiliation.  So maybe their security settings should be tighter, maybe they shouldn’t post certain pics of themselves - that doesn’t it make it their fault when somebody decides to publicly make fun of them.  It may be unsurprising, but they still have every right to be upset.

    • Gaybriel says:

      05:09pm | 14/03/10

      You read my mind Moira.

    • Joel says:

      09:49pm | 14/03/10

      “As a doctoral student specialising in the (often radicalised) representations of Middle-Eastern people in the press and pop culture, I’m more than weary of attributing my discovery to Sheik El-Hilaly’s now infamous ‘uncovered meat’ sermon on the gang rapes and the dress of young women today, because it is not about that at all.”

      If that’s the case, why did you put “Uncovered Meat” into the subject of your article?  Were you trying to use the public opinion of that phrase (which you seem to denounce) to drive more traffic to your article?

    • Timmo says:

      08:47am | 15/03/10

      We will rue the day that we ever ever let the islamic religion into this country and other countries will also rue the day. Too much coverage given to religion by the Punch. Islam like early christianity is the German Cockroach of belief. I wonder how many years it will take before we all are bowing aimlessly each day to the dark side. As far as our women of Australia go, the way our girls dress has nothing to do with Islam. Islam should confine itself to the mosques and not be let loose on Australian public opinion. I reckon the Government should be looking at mass deportations of this Cult and the Anglo Saxons and Celts may have to rise one day to sort this all out or it will be goodbye to Australian Life and hello to Sheik Halali’s Ilk. Just keep looking over you shoulders everyone. Don’t you worry about climate change, that will be nothing compared with the oncoming islamic takeover which is being prepared for at the moment. I realize in writing this that it may stir opposition to me and I know that there are some good moderate believers out there and I have many friends of the islamic belief. But it is only a belief, but this belief gets too much press and currently its radical heart is doing its best to destroy what we all have built. I have never seen in my life so much discussion given to religions. In the 1500 years since Christianity and Islam arose there has been nothing to come out of them except the destabilization of the world. It’s a crying shame.!

    • Bruno says:

      07:11pm | 15/03/10

      Sarah, sorry to point out the obvious but a burqa/niqab does not have the same visual impact as a crucifix and therefore it has a very different meaning.

      What strikes me about the debate is that liberal, educated feminists, many of them Muslims, mostly tend to shy away from a ban. I can understand this kind of top down feminist approach to the issue because it is not concerning them directly and it offers them the opportunity to argue for their liberal credentials. 

      Laws which dictate how women dress are almost universally bad because they use women’s bodies as pawns in a larger debate about culture, secularism and values. As they reduce women to mere symbols of “Islam” or “oppression” or whatever else, they neglect to actually listen to what women actually need in order to engage fully in society, and have the widest possible options available to them. All very high minded stuff, if not a little bit relativistic, insincere and theoretical.

      Meanwhile in Europe the greatest supporters of a ban are Muslim women who live in the disenfranchised suburbs where the presence of the burqa is growing hand in hand with Islamic fundamentalism.

      This bottom up feminist approach connects the burqa with sexism and backwardness because it affects them on a daily basis. The burqa empowers islamists and limits the education of girls, reduce them to utter dependency on their husbands and male relatives. I guess that what islamists understand by the notions of freedom and choice.

      This generation of relatively poor Muslim women want something better for their lives and their daughter’s lives. In fact they want what the 60s generation of feminists wanted for themselves. Something you take probably for granted today. They want meaningful freedom and choice born out of intellectual independence, economic independence through engagement with and contribution to the wider society.

      It’s interesting that many liberal feminists can be so forgetful. Maybe subtle racism plays a part here. After all we are only talking about Muslim women.

    • Helen says:

      07:40am | 16/03/10

      It’s interesting that many liberal feminists can be so forgetful. Maybe subtle racism plays a part here. After all we are only talking about Muslim women.

      Are feminist-of-convenience concern trolls the most irritating form of human life? Just throwing it out there.
      “I support the liberation of Muslim women. By ripping their headscarves off by force, whether that’s what they want at the time or not. It’s for their own good. Oh, and bombing their countries to “liberate” them. And feminists suck. And I see no contradiction between this statement and my wish to “liberate” Muslim women…” (Boom! Head explodes)

    • Beatrice says:

      10:31am | 16/03/10

      I agree with Bruno, wearing the burka is not an acceptable form of dress and the banning of it should be seriously considered. They don’t want any normal human dialogue or interaction with us. We are so objectionable that we aren’t even allowed to cast a glance upon them.  It goes against our aussie way of life. If we all went around wearing burkas our beautiful country would be a very sad place.

 

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