In two courts yesterday, two very different sentences were handed down, for two stomach-turning crimes which epitomise public disgust at random, life-destroying violence.

David Keohane in hospital with family members after his 2008 bashing. Photo: Supplied.

Did the courts reflect that public disgust in their sentences? Did they do their job in reflecting community standards? In one case, probably. In the other, most definitely not.

Both cases involved indiscriminate and unprompted violence, the kind of blink-of-an-eye brain-snaps which terrify every parent, where an innocent young man was jumped, king-hit and left for dead.

The strange difference between the two cases is that, in the first, the victim did not actually die but was left a vegetable with horrendous brain injuries, and his attacker received a relatively massive 14-year non-parole sentence.

In the second case, the victim actually died. But his attacker received a non-parole sentence of just five years, meaning he will be happily out of jail a few years before his 30th birthday.

On the face of it, it seems unusual that that a bloke who actually killed someone receives a sentence almost three times’ more lenient than someone who did not.

Although having said that, the injuries which were sustained by young Irishman David Keohane are so profound that you could argue death would almost have been a better outcome for this poor young man.

The bashing of David Keohane made national headlines in 2008 when the flooring contractor was jumped, robbed and bashed outside a Sydney pub by two men, 21-year-old Thomas Isaako, and New Zealander Kane Desmond Tupuolamaoui, who is still on the run.

Keohane was punched in the head 14 times.

Isaako was drunk and on crystal meth. 

Keohane was in a coma for 218 days. He has permanent brain damage. He will take anti-convulsive medication, probably for the rest of his life, if you can call it a life.

Isaako had been acquitted of attempted murder but yesterday got 14 years’ minimum after pleading guilty to robbery in company and inflicting grievous bodily harm.

As far as sentences go, it was solid, even though most people would probably be happier if the court had thrown away the key.

“The injuries sustained by the victim can only be described as horrendous and have had (serious) consequences for him and his family,” Judge Ronald Soloman said in the NSW District Court yesterday.

“The savage attack in a matter of moments tragically changed the course of the victim’s life from that of a successful, independent young man to that of a dependent person confined to a wheelchair.”

Down in Melbourne, Justice Paul Coghlan was yesterday handing down his sentence in a case where a savage attack in a matter of moments tragically ended the victim’s life.

The victim in this case was 24-year-old Matthew McEvoy, who died after being king-hit twice in the head, and then kicked once in the head, by two attackers, 21-year-old Andriyas Tello, and Lauren Sako, after a minor argument in the smokers’ lounge at Melbourne’s QBH nightclub in 2008.

Sako, the kicker, has already been sentenced to six years with three years’ non-parole for his part in the attack.

Tello, the puncher, was up yesterday.

Justice Coghlan said yesterday he was unable to say conclusively which blow had caused McEvoy’s death, or whether it was caused by the blows in combination, but that it was immaterial because Tello had (eventually) pleaded guilty to manslaughter.

The maximum sentence for manslaughter is 20 years. Justice Coghlan stumped for just five.

It is worth examining Justice Coghlan’s sentencing remarks at some length to appreciate his reasoning in imposing this lesser sentence.

The judge said the key factors in his mind were the accused’s youth, genuine remorse, capacity for rehabilitation, while also mentioning his family background as a refugee and his capacity for self-harm if incarcerated for an onerous length of time.

To some people it will sound compassionate and reasonable. To others it will sound like a sob-story which insults the memory of Matthew McEvoy.

Justice Coghlan said he could not find “the least indication” that neither Tello nor his companions “had ever behaved in this way in the past”.

“The expression “thug” or “thugs” has been used about you and your group, and although it is an apt expression to use with regard to your behaviour on this occasion, it is not an accurate description of your previous character and disposition,” the Judge told Tello.

He then turned to Tello’s difficult childhood as the seventh of eight children, born into an Assyrian family in Iraq, which they fled after the Gulf War in 1992, and after one of Tello’s uncles had been tortured to death by Saddam Hussein’s regime.

The family lived in Jordan, Turkey and Greece for the next five years, with young Andriyas selling tissues on the streets of Athens to help his family survive.  They were finally accepted for asylum by Australia in 1998, after which Tello was bullied at primary school, which Justice Coghlan said was “perhaps the unfortunate cost of being different.”

Despite these hardships, Tello finished Year 12, completed a pre-apprenticeship course in building and construction, and had begun a carpentry apprenticeship which he was unable to complete after he was charged over McEvoy’s death.

Evidence was heard from experienced forensic psychologist Patrick Newton who said Tello had “expressed uncharacteristic remorse for the deceased and his family, as well as regret”.

“In particular, he noted how sincerely you regretted the way you had intervened on the night,” the Judge told Tello yesterday.

Mr Newton also stated in evidence that Tello had suffered a form of post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of his life in Iraq. He described him as a young man who “ordinarily rejects violence and does not condone the use of physical aggression as a valid means of achieving his desires or resolving conflict”.

But Mr Newton went on:

“Notwithstanding these positive values, my assessment did identify some issues in Mr Tello’s conflict-management skills. These have their roots in his traumatic and displaced childhood. Even though the trauma has now passed, Mr Tello continues to have some difficulty engaging with his emotions…Mr Tello is likely to be unaware of his anger until it has reached significant proportions. He is likely to experience his anger as coming upon him suddenly and this makes it more difficult to exercise appropriate control over it.”

This was the part of the judgment which most disturbed me. A bloke who is prone to such uncharacteristic blow-ups that he will land a life-ending punch on an innocent kid will be walking free in five years, after the court took what I regard as an overly sympathetic view of his background.

You would hope, and the court clearly does, that five years in the clink will force Tello to reflect on that part of his character, and that it will not happen again.

It’s a gamble. A huge gamble.

And as far as Matthew’s Dad is concerned, who sat crying in court yesterday and shaking his head as the sentence was handed down, it is also an appalling bloody insult to his son’s memory, which does not even come close to reflecting the magnitude of the crime.

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111 comments

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    • stevie says:

      07:10am | 27/05/10

      I don’t give a shit about his background - and for once I mean this. Each and every day every one of us has to face up to who we are, where we have come from and how we interact with others. There are millions of people walking around with scars they carry from previous issues in the lives - but seldom do they commit such horrific acts of cowardice.

      It this was my son who was lying dead or in a coma from some horrible violent and unecessary act I would feel like Matthew’s Dad - absolutely gutted and a whole family ruined.

    • KH says:

      08:07am | 27/05/10

      Precisely.  Every decision you make, you have control over.  You decide to hit someone, with no regard for their person, and you should have to take the consequences.  I my opinion, this sob story crap has to stop - anyone will feign ‘genuine remorse’ when they face a life in jail - sure, remorse for the years you will lose.  I doubt this ar$ehole has any real feeling for anyone but himself.  Yet another argument to not allow these ‘traumatised’ people to immigrate to this country - not if they have a convenient sob story to use as their defence when they kill someone.  Absolutely disgusting.

    • Andrew says:

      09:48am | 28/05/10

      KH, if it is true that we all have control over our decisions, then everything that is wrong in our lives must be not the result of decisions, but of forces we cannot control, internal or external. Otherwise, wouldn’t everyone decide to make their lives ideal: to give up all their addictions, to eat only the healthiest of foods, to always behave in a civilised manner, and so on? Yet ideal lives seem extremely rare.

      I am certain the offender in this case did not feel in control of his actions at all during the incident. If I am right, then the question of whether he is evil becomes moot. Ah, but how we hate to have our right to label others “evil” diluted! It makes life sooo ... complicated. But perhaps, if we are to be honest with ourselves, we have to accept that life is precisely that.

    • Michael says:

      12:07pm | 28/05/10

      Andrew’s attepmt at being clever this morning leave him looking like a goose. KH is correct in saying that we have control of our decisions. Andrew’s agruement that there are outside influences highlights a very real problem in society. Only when people accept the responsibility of having control will they make right decisions. To use background, bad eventsetc to justify behaviour is to give excuses for people who don’t take control & responsibility for their behaviour.

    • Steve says:

      07:13am | 27/05/10

      The first incident was a premeditated attack, the offenders looking rob their victim and then, presumably as an afterthought, decided to bash him senseless for good measure.

      The second incident was a fight between twio groups of young men in a nightclub. Both tragic outcomes but very different cases.

    • TONI says:

      12:07pm | 27/05/10

      DIFFERENT?? stil this man was kicked while lying on the ground!!

    • Notanabu says:

      05:28am | 28/05/10

      We also don’t know of the perpetrators criminal history. Maybe in the first case they had some history, hence the longer sentence. Also when someone pleads guilty has an effect on their sentence. AFAIK, generally an earlier plea means a lesser sentence.

      Pre-meditated crimes usually carry a harsher sentence also.

      I really don’t think you can compare these as closely as you would like.

    • biff says:

      07:22am | 27/05/10

      Yes, criminals always have buckets of remorse and regret when in court. The case of the killing of McEvoy and the lenient sentencing takes me back to a story about crime only last week. A car thief was taken prisoner, chained to a tree in scrub land and beaten for his crime by two people. The actions of vilgilantees perhaps. Such acts as the beating of the car thief only happen when judges fail to deal with criminals. Justice Coghlan’s pathetic sentencing of Tello and Sako fails any test of what is appropriate for the crime they committed.

    • ABC says:

      09:40am | 27/05/10

      No they don’t.  If you ever want to sit in a court room for any amount of time you will not that despite guilty pleas - a hell of a lot of defendants feel no remorse.  They plead guilty just to mitigate their sentence.  True and genuine remorse is not as frequently displayed as you think.

    • biff says:

      11:16am | 27/05/10

      ABC, I was being facetious when I made the comment about how crims are overtaken by remorse and regret. I was trying to make the point that it is only when they get to court that they feel remorse and regret.

    • ABC says:

      02:13pm | 27/05/10

      Biff,

      I agree with you (....sort of).  However, my point was that where there is real and genuine remorse, it should not be lost amongst the mindset that people will say anything (plead guilt etc…) to reduce their time in jail.  Genuine contrition, involving complete and real acceptance both pyshcologically and morally of the damage that you have done, and genuinely accepting responsibility for what you have done should never be confused with the view of “Pleading guilty means, I accept I did wrong”.  It doesn’t.  When you are truly and genuinely remorseful, as opposed to “strategically remorseful” in order to look good, a defendent should receive some acknowledgement of that fact in terms of sentencing.

    • Rpb r Charteris says:

      03:34pm | 27/05/10

      Biff; I agree! and they turn to religion when they come up against the parole board. If you truly regret your crime you would have never commited it, period.

    • Feral Wombat says:

      07:30am | 27/05/10

      Ever since I bought on Poverty Point (aka Shark Point) I have been trying to convince people that everywhere west of the Clovelly Hotel should be referred to as the western suburbs. Good to see that Penbo is backing my proposal. Coogee is, therefore, a western Sydney beach.

      On a more serious note, all my sympathy to David Keohane and his family. Australia is a much better country than it must appear to them. Hopefully they have received some comfort from the sentence handed down yesterday.

    • kristinmoore2 says:

      07:49am | 27/05/10

      2 Courts, 2 Judgements, 2 sentences, 2 different cases. Judges are required to judge each case individually, within certain sentencing and other guidelines and so it should be for reporting cases.

      The facts in these cases are quite different and the offenders in these cases are also quite different - chalk and cheese in fact.

      In the one case, an offender with a prior record of violence and prior convictions goes out high on crystal meth ‘looking for someone to roll’, finds his victim in the street and brutally attacks him - 14 punches to the head. He attempts to evade police and shows little or no remorse for his actions.

      In the other, an offender with no prior record of violence, no convictions and of previously good character gets involved in an altercation between groups of young men over a drug purchase at a club (a very common occurrence unfortunately). If you read the facts, you will see that the victim was drunk and had attempted to purchase ecstasy from one of the offender’s friends, which led to an altercation which was apparently resolved.

      16 seconds, 2 punches and 1 kick later - the victim is, tragically, dead. The offender pleads guilty, is extremely remorseful and cooperates fully. If the victim had not died, this would have been just another nightclub brawl - unreported and unacknowledged.

      How anyone could compare these 2 entirely different chains of events is beyond me. Fortunately it was not beyond the Judges in these cases.

      One point I agree on however, sadly, I doubt the young man in the Victorian case will receive the help he needs with his anger management in prison.

      I applaud the judge in the Victorian case for pointing out to the young people in court that 16 seconds of losing control in a nightclub can ruin not only your life but that of countless other people. I hope they paid attention, increased sentencing will not stop this type of violence, having to sit and watch the devastation that it causes and listen to victim impact statements just might.

    • Paul Horn says:

      10:43am | 27/05/10

      Sorry wrong kristinmoore2!!! The cases are not as different as you claim. The fact is that once the victim was on the ground the they decided to finish him off with a swift kick to the head. This was excessive violence no mater how you look at it. Had it been a simple punch to put the victim on the ground and left it at that you might have a point. But no he decided to make a good job of it by planting the boot, always a dangerous move against someone who is helpless. This being a drug sale leaves me even less sympathy.

      Only one solution, put these two vermin to sleep permanently. They can repatriate themselves while they burn in hell.

    • Ricky says:

      05:28pm | 27/05/10

      Spot on Paul Horn.You summed it up beautifully.KristinMoore, bleeding heart sympathisers like yourself are much of the reason that crime is out of control in parts on Australia now.

    • LC says:

      06:56pm | 01/06/10

      Agreeing with Paul on this one. If he just stopped after the punches you would be 100% correct. However, the kick to the head, a very dangerous and life threatening athing to do at the best of times, in and of itself warrants a murder charge (and being drunk or on drugs is NOT an excuse) and should have been treated accordingly.

    • Liz says:

      07:54am | 27/05/10

      Tragedy all round probably caused by drug and acohol use combined with testosterone.

    • Jones says:

      12:48pm | 27/05/10

      Oh nice, play the testosterone card.  I resent that.

      Where’s Eric when you need him?

    • Bob Higgs says:

      07:56am | 27/05/10

      Law courts are about process and have little to do with Justice,  maybe this is a fair way to deal with an imperfect world.  If you want justice, I don’t think the life long, cotton woolled, public servants that inhabit the legal institutions have it in their vocabulary.  Vigilantes would be the ones to meter out justice but the government controls the justice market and banned them.

    • centurion48 says:

      08:23am | 27/05/10

      @Bob Higgs: You are talking about vengeance and retribution, not justice.
      Judges and magistrates must weigh up the facts and the penalties available before sentencing. Blogs and newspapers cannot present all the facts in 500 words. Therefore, they only raise the issues that support whatever argument they wish to promote. That’s just how it is.
      I think it is unfortunate that the families of victims are asked whether they consider the sentence to be appropriate. It is a loaded question and elicits a predictable response but that does not mean that justice was not served.
      It is unfortunate that there is a distinction between a life extinguished and a life ruined irretrievably but the line had to be drawn somewhere, and that distinction is about as black and white as it gets.

    • The Other Martin says:

      12:54pm | 27/05/10

      Centurion 48 can you explain your definition of justice? I think it must be different to the one most of us hold. I guess it is a personal opinion - a bit like pornography. Hard to define but we know it when we see it. Few of us would think that Justice was served in either case. Look at the downside to each side: Victim - life destroyed; perpetrator - significant period of disruption. There is no comparison. A simple comparison to make it personal - How would you feel if some one stole all your property and the judge returned 10% of it - Just outcome - I don’t think so. What are the perpetrators doing to recitify their offence?

    • ABC says:

      02:28pm | 27/05/10

      The Other Martian - justice is aspirational - essentially that in a perfect world this is how things would be - if there were no grey areas this is how things would play out.  The law - on the other hand - is realism - that as grubby and distasteful as the world may be - the law must be applied on a continuum that there are variances and some hugely grey areas, that are not as we would ideally want them to be, but that in the current circumstances there are other factors at play that are not able to be contemplated in a strictly black and white, utopian - victim and perpetator view of the world - that is the backbone of view of “Justice” that you apply.

    • The Other Martin says:

      08:04pm | 27/05/10

      ABC - I’m sorry but I just don’t understand what you are trying to say? You feel I’m being utopian (if I read your comment correctly) in trying to get redress for the victim from the perpetrator. By this I don’t mean incarceration & punishment for the perpetrator but real redress for the offence by the perpetrator for the benefit of the victim. I don’t consider this utopian merely the mearest form of Justice. The victim is the injured party not the state or the perpetrator or anyone else. I find your aspiration justice comment more overtly utopian by contrast. What does it mean? I don’t want the perpetrator to reform. I want him not to offend in the first place and I want the victim to get full and complete redress for the violation of their rights.

    • EJDR says:

      08:01am | 27/05/10

      The most confusing aspect of this is that almost all people who commit violent crimes have had very difficult backgrounds characterised by violence, abuse, trauma and frequently socioeconomic disadvantage. Judges tend to display inconsistencies as to when these factors are sympathised with and factored into a lighter sentence, or when they are simply ignored. It seems decisions are made somehow deciding that this person is essentially good, but it was the background that made him do it, so he deserves a chance and a lighter sentence. Or this person is essentially bad and this may be due to his background, but he is still bad and therefore deserves a heftier sentence.

    • Joan says:

      08:03am | 27/05/10

      Like the sqeeky clean suits and haircuts the remorse and regret is just a show. My work brings me in contact with some such types, once out of court they remain the people they were before even after jail sentences. The only thing they are sorry about is being caught.

    • DJ says:

      08:23am | 27/05/10

      Sadly, the Justice system has let us down once again. Lets hope that the summary justice often handed down in prison takes it course and these men get their just deserts.

    • iansand says:

      08:39am | 27/05/10

      What is your point, Mr Penberthy?  Are you saying that the background of offenders should never be taken into account on sentencing?  Are you advocating a “one size fits all” approach to sentencing, with no judicial input?  Or are you on an inflammatory tabloid rant?

    • maybe says:

      10:40am | 27/05/10

      It would appear that he thinks the judicial system is based around punishment, not rehabilitation in which case the nature of both the crime and the perpetrators are important factors in determining the consequances.

    • DM says:

      12:04pm | 27/05/10

      Background should have nothing to do with it. nor the fact that he will commit self harm in prison, please!

      At what point do we start taking responsibility for OUR OWN actions? No one made them beat the guy, no one held a gun to their head. PTS is a weak excuse for this type of behaviour, a lot of people suffer from it and we don’t go around taking lives or bashing people with no regard for life.

      Judges are weak due to namby pamby bleeding hearts, oh the poor child was smacked once as a toddler and was high as a kite, he is not responsible for driving under an illegal substance and killing a family of 5, no he should be hugged and told he is special, what rot!

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      03:45pm | 27/05/10

      It seems inconsistant to me that a jury on a murder case can hear about the woeful background of the defendant but cannot hear about prior convictions and/or multiple offending whether they be in the same class as the current charge.

    • iansand says:

      04:21pm | 27/05/10

      Rob Charterist - The instant the jury hears about woeful upbringing the bad side of character comes into play and the jury hears all about the convictions.

      This article is about sentencing (judge’s department), not determination of guilt or innocence (jury’s department).

      Why do so many ranters and ravers about justice issues have so little idea of how the system works?

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      05:21pm | 27/05/10

      @iansandi; My appologies, I didn’t realise this was an elitist forum. Rant away

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      05:29pm | 27/05/10

      Btw, iansandi, a case for example the recent Des Campbell murder trial they didn’t hear about his prior dodgy life including convictions of fraud, alledged sexual assault while a Police officer. Even after pretty damaged character assasination in court. So your rant to me doesn’t wash.

    • iansand says:

      06:19pm | 27/05/10

      Rob r Charteris - Because he didn’t raise his character. He never said that he was of good character.

      And you are still bewildered about the different functions of judge and jury.

    • Lore says:

      08:44am | 27/05/10

      Thankfully our legal system isn’t beholden to mob “justice”.

      There is more underlying it than just sensationalistic headlines designed to mess with the minds of the ignorant and easily stirred.

    • Martin G says:

      12:07pm | 27/05/10

      The sentencing in the second case did not reflect community standards and expectations. The ‘mob’ you are referring to happens to be the general public, who are tired of hearing about vicious and cowardly attacks on innocent victims. There is nothing ‘sensationalist’ about it.

      I wonder what your opinion would be if one of your family members went out for the night and got king-hit in the back of the head?

    • MD says:

      03:52pm | 27/05/10

      What exactly is ‘king-hit’?

    • Julie Coker-Godson says:

      12:35am | 28/05/10

      @MD:  My understanding of the term ‘king hit’ is that it involves an attacker coming up behind the victim and striking him on the back of the head, usually near the base of the skull.  Some consider it an attack on a victim while the victim’s back is turned, regardless of where the victim is struck.

    • BTS says:

      05:54am | 28/05/10

      A ‘king-hit’ draws particular ire because it’s a cowardly attack from behind without the victim’s knowledge it is coming.

    • SM says:

      08:57am | 27/05/10

      Judge number 2 sound like an aspiring psychiatrist.  An utterly ridiculous sentence

    • Brett says:

      10:11am | 28/05/10

      If you’re refering to Mr Coghlan, well you’d be right.  He is a serial offender.  But what to do?  These so-called justices are a protected species, immune from any liability for any decision they make no matter how reckless or damaging.  The judiciary should be responsible for carefully applying the principles of jurisprudence to determine guilt ot innocence, but that’s where it should stop.  Sentencing should be taken out of the hands of judges and magistrates, because they typically fail in this area.

    • Tom says:

      09:09am | 27/05/10

      Several studies have confirmed that Judges generally give harsher sentences than laypeople. I have tried, but I fail to see the issue with these sentences. By its very nature, sentencing is a subjective, not an objective measure of a crime. Hence there will be some inconsistencies.

      However, in these cases, the sentences are roughly appropriate. One involved some ice addicts actively seeking to inflict bodily harm upon an innocent victim. The other involved a nightclub argument. There are hundreds of those which end with nothing more than a couple of black eyes or a bloodied nose. As for the results, David Keohane isn’t dead, but I fail to see how his present condition is any better.

      Are you suggesting that a psychological assessment in the second case which concluded the perpetrator was genuinely remorseful for what happened should have no bearing? Although his actions were unconscionable, there is little doubt he did not go out that night with the intention of causing harm to anyone. The same cannot be said in the Keohane case. Intent does, and should, form a huge part in sentencing. One was a tragic example of how an argument can escalate, the other was a truly vile example of humanity actively seeking to inflict harm upon another person.

    • Chris says:

      09:33am | 27/05/10

      What? The the first case was a pre-meditated attack by someone with a long criminal history who punched 14 times.

      The second case was a brawl after a dispute between young guys, from someone with no criminal history who had, unlike the first case, better prospects of rehabilitation.

      They’re absolutely different cases. The sentences seem entirely proportional once those differences are taken into account. It makes utter sense that sentences should be proportional to blameworthiness, how much of a menace to the community the defendant is, and whether the prospects of rehabilitation are there. That is spelled out in the local sentencing statutes in every State, and judges are required to sentence based on those considerations.

      What a nonsense article.

    • Bitten says:

      09:44am | 27/05/10

      Yes, well, they’re all ‘rooly rooly sorry’ when they get caught.

    • Gordon Akman says:

      09:46am | 27/05/10

      I too considered the sentences yesterday.

      I heard recently that studies had been done that showed when the public is not provided all the details of a case their sentences tend to be significantly higher than the sentencing judge but when provided all the details their sentencing tends to be similar to the sentencing judge. 

      I’m sure judges make a genuine effort to hand out appropriate sentencing and there is good basis in law for their decisions. Yet, like many of you, I simply think ‘Ok.. so someone’s life is worth 3yrs or 5yrs in jail’.

      I think a major problem with our society is is our standards of decency seem to be forever falling. What would be considered indecent, undignified or socially unacceptable a few decades ago is now tolerated and dismissed as no big deal. Walk through any nightclub district in Australia at 2am. Look at all the public drunkenness and public nuisance offences taking place and nothing being done about them.

      We now live in a society that is too lenient on clearly bad behaviour IMO. People complain about us becoming a ‘nanny state’. Well I think those people should shut their mouth’s and respect the law. If I were consul you would obey the laws. If you didn’t you could probably add a zero to the end of that 3yrs jail that one animal referred to in this article received.

      ‘Pardon one offence and you encourage the commission of many.’ - Publilius Syrus

    • MEJ says:

      09:55am | 27/05/10

      RIP Matty. An unnecessary waste of life. The sentence is utterly ridiculous - because of two men’s senseless actions, I will never get to see one of my mates again. Background has nothing to do with it, just another sob story to get out of jail. It was a cowardly attack by two drunken thugs who should never have been allowed in Australia.
      My condolences go out to David Keohane and his family. I don’t know what would be worse: to lose a son, or to have a son physically there but everything else you knew and loved about him gone.
      When will this nonsense end?
      I’ll never forget you Matt.

    • Criminologist says:

      10:09am | 27/05/10

      Juries should have a say in recommending sentences after they have reached a verdict.  Since they have heard the facts and we entrust them as representatives of the community to make an impartial decision, why then can’t the ‘community’ have input into sentencing?

    • Chris says:

      12:59pm | 27/05/10

      Daft idea. You can’t seriously be a criminologist?

      For a start, sentences are mostly done after a pleading of guilt. The case at hand involved a plea of guilty. There was no jury. But even after trials, or if you bring juries in just to hear the sentence. Do you have any idea how much costs there would be? How much longer lawyers would need to be in court? How many more people bought in to jury duty? Any idea where tripling the cost of the court system would come from?

      But otherwise…

      Firstly, sentencing involves things that determining facts doesn’t. Namely, value judgments and proportionality between sentences. Similiar sentences being handed out for similar crimes. I mean look at this whole article - it’s a complaint that like cases (‘like’ in the author’s opinion) aren’t treated alike. How can you ensure juries treat like cases alike? What do you do if they don’t?

      Secondly, the community DOES have input into sentencing. Parliament sets the maximum penalty for each crime. And for that matter, decides what is a crime. What is wrong with representative democracy?

      Thirdly, how do you work out what the jury’s recommendation is. What if they can’t agree? Do you instead let all 12 people in the jury come up with their own idea? Does a judge listen to 12 opinions and decide which one is best or take them into account? How does a judge reconcile them? Or should a judge just average them out? Or maybe reject any bizarre ones and average the remainder? Go with any majority?

      Fourhtly, how on Earth do you deal with the issue of compromise. Namely, people hearing a trial might decide that even though they’re not sure of the guilt of the accused, they might decide to compromise and decide to convict, but sentence lightly.  Or, they might decide someone is strictly innocent, but they disapprove of them generally (say, someone who takes advantage of a girl but short of rape). Do they convict with a light sentence?

      There are a million other things wrong with that suggestion, that’s just the ones I can think of.

    • Kordez says:

      01:33pm | 27/05/10

      @Criminologist, It’s important that Judges pass down a sentence that represents what the public wants, but I agree with old mate.
      It might be a good idea to raise the minium sentence to reflect what Australian citizens believe to be the appropriate punishment for offences like rape, manslaughter and murder.

    • Criminologist says:

      01:34pm | 27/05/10

      Thanks Chris, I regard personal attack as an indication of the value I place on the person replying.

      I was speaking generally, I wasn’t aware that you have the power to restrict conversation to your liking on this blog.

      Since juries are already there and it’s already costing a fortune, an hour or two for the jury to consider their recommendation on sentencing once they have completed deliberations, isn’t a great extension of the existing system.

      I said juries should have an input, not that they make the final decision on a sentence.  If a Judge makes a final decision after hearing from the Prosecution, the Defence, why can’t he also hear from the community representatives already present.  Then let the judge weigh the community’s voice in his determination.

      Clearly, these articles indicate that the community does not believe it has enough input into sentencing.  This way, they may have a voice.

      So we can trust a jury whether to find a person guilty of a crime, but they can’t be trusted on the punishment involved.  One would have thought the former was a more onerous task.

      Again, you seem to have ignored the word ‘input’, perhaps to justify your position?

    • Chris says:

      04:00pm | 27/05/10

      It might have seemed like a personal attack but it was really just astonishment that someone educated in criminal process and theories in criminology would not be aware of precisely why it’s a bad idea. If it sounds critical it’s because it’s a misleading suggestion; misleading about what it suggests is possible.

      No, juries are not ‘already there’. Most cases are resolved through a plea of guilt. I’d estimate 9/10 involve no juries. So you’re talking about a very partial intervention into the system. I think what makes it a poignant comment is that in the very case the article is complaining about, there was no jury there to provide input. Your suggestion would amount to a very partial and selective process for providing community opinions in the smaller number of cases where people choose to contest their guilt. There might be perceived disadvantages in doing so. A criminologist would know these things.

      Second point you seem to have completely missed is not that it’s a more onerous or difficult duty (deciding guilt, vs sentence); what I said it’s a very *different* process. It requires a different set of skills and requirements. Anyone can form an opinion whether something’s true or not from watching evidence. Forming an opinion as to what range of gaol sentence would be proportional in relation to comparative cases in higher courts? Should they be given some hours to get training in Parliament’s Penalties and Sentences Act; and all the possible sentences they could craft? How bail works, how parole works, how probation works? Do they know what the consequences for breaching aprole or probation or suspended sentences work? No, you’d have to train all the juries up in order to give them a considered opinion. It’s not just a range of years.

      And you’re pushing this very vague idea about ‘input’. What does that mean? They all write the judge a letter? Does the judge have to agree with it? Can they decide it should be capped or has to be increased, but accept it if it’s in range? Just letting them express an opinion sounds pointless without a theory as to how it’s used. Can the judge ignore it? How does it work?

      In my experience, most juries, once they’ve sat through a trial, express a deep sense of satisfaction because once they sit through it they realise what a hard, painstaking and careful job is done by judges.

    • Criminologist says:

      05:25pm | 27/05/10

      Chris,

      You need to read what I originall wrote:

      ‘Juries should have a say in recommending sentences after they have reached a verdict.’  Juries are there, they have reached a verdict.

      You could also very easily train community members to attend to guilty pleas.  There are also a plethora of members of the community who are already trained in legal matters.  There are already community groups who do have a say in sentencing, so why not formalise it?

      It’s hardly ‘vague’:

      ‘If a Judge makes a final decision after hearing from the Prosecution, the Defence, why can’t he also hear from the community representatives already present.  Then let the judge weigh the community’s voice in his determination.’  That seems to be pretty clear.

      If it’s such an unworkable concept then how was the judicial system able to consider victim impact statements?  These were previously unheard of in sentencing and yet now, we have trained people to take impact statements and these are considered by the judge in his determinations.  A judge also considers victim impact statements for guilty pleas. So it’s not an alien concept, it’s been done before.  It’s already one form of the community having a say in sentencing?

      Yet the judicial system didn’t cave in under the enormous cost and bureaucracy you seem to believe this would entail. 

      Criminology is not an exact science and it never will be, it is about exploring new ideas and methods to resolve the issues it faces.  Change has occurred in the past and can and will do so in the future.

    • Chris says:

      07:43pm | 27/05/10

      I think you’re underselling most serious and educated people who earn the title of ‘criminologist’ if you think it’s not an ‘exact science’ and just an ‘exploration of ideas’. The ‘ology’ in criminology means it’s supposed to represent a hard, provable body of knowledge. At least a suggestion of testable, provable propositions capable of being demonstrated statistically or empirically . A real criminologist is supposed to have an expert knowledge of the workings of justice systems that gives them a bedrock.

      You’re dodging around a bit and you’ve been very selective in what you’ve tried to bolster the idea with. I’m still baffled what you think the jury is supposed to produce and how it’s supposed to be used.

      It’s not hyperbole at all to suggest you’ll add a crushing weight to the administration of justice if you make juries effectively ‘community panels’ on punishment. Every possible trial date before every possible judge is always overbooked three or four times. Adding some unknown length of time to the end of each one to canvass views from the community? There’s a community cost there, at a minimum paying all the juror’s allowances, the building, their lunches, their time off work, etc.

      Oh of course I know about victim impact statements. You would of course be aware that they are NOT opportunities for the victim to express to the court what they think a sentence should be. That is improper content for the statements. They are therapeutic to the victim and perceived as a way to let judge’s understand harm caused. Prosecutors must advise victims to not include any suggestions on what should happen to the defendant and if they are included should delete them. That is NOT a model or precedent for community input into the sentencing decision itself. It just adds to information available.

      You further haven’t addressed the representative quality of juries. Currently they only need to be impartial and seen to be impartial, on judging issues of fact. But you’re suggesting they also need to represent a fair cross-section of the entire community, as a representation of the community. So what do you do with an all-male jury or an all-female jury on a rape, incest, or domestic violence case? How could that jury be said to represent the pluralistic backgrounds and perspectives of society? Fairness can’t be judged like facts.

      The strength of the jury system is that if you get a small group of people but who can all agree with certainty on a factual issue based on given evidence then that’s likely good enough almost all the time. When you get opinion-based and value-laden views drawn from a small group with requirement of any sort of unanimous view you drain away the very thesis for why jury verdicts matter.

    • Criminologist says:

      04:48am | 28/05/10

      Chris,

      Investigate Phrenology and come back to me with the empiracle value it has contributed to Criminology.  You will be surprised to discover that there was a period of time when this was believed to be an accurate cause of crime.  If you are dealing with a person’s mind, it’s a little bit difficult to quantitatively prove that there is a specific scientific cause of criminality.  This has proved to be true for all of the major theoretical foundations attributed to causation of crime.  Since none have been able to be proven, the scientific community remain sceptical that Criminology is an exact science.  Some are quite vociferous.

      I haven’t ‘dodged around a bit’, it’s been evident so far, that you never accurately read what I wrote, rather placed your own interpretation on the content and then ran off on that erroneous tangent.  I am well aware of the current functions of a jury, I merely suggested this might be an additional function and since the community broadly consists of capable individuals, I am sure it’s not beyond the realms of their achievement.  Perhaps if you read the other contributors, you might discover that they think that the system needs improvement.  Some suggest that the judicial system errs in sentencing and believe that it could be done better and that the judges are out of touch.  Interaction with the community is an important function of the judicial system, it underpins it’s existence.  One would think that inclusion of the community would be one of the goals.

      ‘That is NOT a model or precedent for community input into the sentencing decision itself. It just adds to information available.’ 

      Curious statement.  It’s not an ‘input’ into sentencing as I provided, it’s an ‘adding’ as you provided. 

      If you don’t think that juries are a cross section of the community then we are both wasting our time here.  In fact, the jury process insists that it is a cross section of the community.

      I think that one could consider the determination of the function of a jury better than them being ‘likely good enough almost all the time’

      The United States have a sentencing phase at the end of trials which involve a jury contributing to the penalty phase.  The most obvious example lies in crimes considering the Death Penalty.  In those crimes the jury contribute an assessment of whether the ultimate sentence should be imposed.  So if it’s such an alien and unworkable concept, why has it been effectively implemented internationally?

    • Chris says:

      12:58pm | 28/05/10

      Phrenology being debunked as junk science is a warning that criminology can’t be science, it’s just a warning it should be scientifically rigorous if it wants credibility. The problem with criminology is large segments of it is characterised as just discussion or theorising with no claim to any objective standard of correctness or provability. Ergo, people coming out of the woodwork saying any old thing.

      It is a real difference between deciding whether things did, or didn’t occur; and going further, and making a value judgment on the type and extent of punishment that is merited as a result. When I say ‘adding’ as opposed to ‘input’ I mean adding to information available. This is a contrast to ‘input’ which is then actually having a hand in the judgment or decision as to what is fair and just. If you were going to pluck out two words you should have picked out ‘information’ and ‘decision’. The latter involves value judgment and synthesis of numerous competing goals of sentencing. The former is fact-finding or sometimes determining a standard of reasonable behaviour. This is the difference you can’t seem to grasp about two entirely different functions, the latter of which is completely alien to the jury system and would require vast structural changes to the system which you appear to only have a vague knowledge of.

    • John says:

      10:09am | 27/05/10

      I’ve got to agree with Chris,
      Fights like the second case happen numerous times every week end, generally with no long term consequences.
      As horrible as the result was for the victim, there is an element of simple and random bad luck which occurred here.
      There were probably a few hundred alcohol fueled fights that week end, and only this one ended up with a death.
      Can we sentence on the basis of chance?

    • Bitten says:

      02:58pm | 27/05/10

      ‘As horrible as the result was for the victim…’

      You mean death, right? How magnanimous of you to concede that death might be a bit of a bummer for the deceased. Twat.

    • Lee from WA says:

      10:51am | 27/05/10

      I reckon the sentence should have been higher, somewhere around the 7-9 year mark. What I find appalling from the comments is the assumption that Tello’s remorse is faked. I know that I were in his situation (which I never would be because I don’t drink), I would feel extreme remorse. It only took a split second to go mental under the influence of alcohol (a drug not usually associated with self-control) without thinking about the consequences. It wasn’t premeditated nor does he have a history of violence so I don’t find it hard at all to believe that he would have felt genuine remorse and guilt in the cold light of day.

      If the guy had a number of assault convictions, then yeah I would doubt his remorse but since it doesn’t seem like he did, I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I think 5 years is too little a sentence for killing someone but to have given him the maximum sentence when he pleaded guilty and has a good chance of rehabilitation would have been pointless.

      David did an injustice to this story. He says they are two different cases but really he’s saying they’re not and they should be treated the same. The attack on Keohane was premeditated but the one on McEvoy wasn’t. The only similarity is that they are both tragic.

    • Hamish says:

      11:06am | 27/05/10

      Great article Penbo, back to your usual standard after a couple of disappointments. However, you missed the key difference between these two crimes. One happened in Victoria - ‘The place to be (if you’re a criminal)’. Victoria has an unbelievably soft judiciary hand-picked by our minister for the promotion of crime, Rob Hulls, who cares more about instituting reverse discrimination laws than he does about punishing criminals.

      The Victorian judiciary see their role as redeeming humanity through the agency of sentencing, rather than protecting the law abiding community from criminals. Every week, there is a shockingly soft sentence delivered on the basis of some perceived disadvantage. I accept that some people have had tough lives, but this doesn’t excuse criminal behaviour and it certainly doesn’t soften the blow to their past and future victims. And with such a soft approach, there are invariably future victims.

      Our recently resigned (and grossly negligent) Police Commissioner was complicit in the politicising of the police force to the extent that they are now more deliverers of social policy than anything else. Recently the government has announced an increase in police numbers (Victoria has the lowest amount of police per capita in Australia) after 10 years…two months after the Opposition said they were going to do it.

      The Justice system in Victoria is rotten to the core. Every week our government pontificate about our ‘drunken violence’ problem or our ‘knife crime’ problem, or any other trendy terminology to distract from the failure of their sofly, softly approach to protecting the law abiding from the capricious and violent.

    • AdamC says:

      02:42pm | 27/05/10

      Then, of course, they trot out the legal and welfare industry talking heads to tut tut about ‘law and order auctions’ and ‘tough on crime’ policies, as if the government is actually doing either! It is quite clever, I suppose, but doesn’t reduce crime.

    • watchingwithinterest says:

      11:20am | 27/05/10

      I have to say sitting with the victims and their families during the sentencing of a person who has destroyed the victim’s life listening to judges pass sentence is nothing short of embarrasing.  Almost every offender these days has some sort of sob story to tell and invariable the bigger the sob story the lighter the sentence.  Generally alcohol and drugs play a part.  Whilst victims must live with a life sentence and have their role in the whole issue reduced to a couple of sentences by the judge every minute issue of the offender is examined and used to discount their sentences.  Only when the law states that alcohol and drug use do not entitle an offender to a reduction in their responsibility, might young people (especially young men) start taking some responsibility for their own behaviour

    • Chris L says:

      06:23pm | 27/05/10

      True enough. I tend to abuse alcohol, but even at my most intoxicated I would never attempt to harm anyone. If people cannot control themselves under the influence they should make the decision to not indulge, and that decision needs to be made while they are in control of their faculties. Intoxication from any drug should increase a sentence, not decrease, because the perpetrator is willingly putting themselves into the state of lapsed judgement.

    • natalie says:

      11:21am | 27/05/10

      there has to be some body to over see these ridiculous cases. Like most people, I dont buy into the poor Iraqi background…I dont care where you come from or what you have been through, taking a life is taking a life. As for the self harm exscuse - it seems like if you murder someone and then threaten to kill yourself if you go to jail then you’ll get a reduced sentence.

      these judges should be reprimanded and not allowed to try any further major cases. that would stop them handing down stupid sentences.

    • ABC says:

      03:45pm | 27/05/10

      Yes, its called the Court of Criminal Appeal.  If sentences are perceived to be inadequate there are avenues available.  The fact that a sentence gives you the pip is not grounds for it to be reviewed.

    • Gavin says:

      06:22pm | 27/05/10

      Because realistically, most people outside the judiciary wouldn’t know what constitutes a good, harsh or inadequate sentence in relation to the law. Someone before said “Oh I think the 7-9 year mark would be sufficient”. They pulled that figure out their bum. It just “felt right”. It’s not parenting, it’s carrying out an important and skilled role. You people would have no idea about the guts of the law.

    • DG says:

      11:39am | 27/05/10

      I cannot only imagine the pain and the loss these family’s have endured- there is no excuse that anyone can make - when you take a life.
      Life is 100% a gift and is the most precious thing- without life there is nothing.
      No reasonable writer could also suggest that death is better than life no matter how affected the young person is…..

    • Lee says:

      12:04pm | 27/05/10

      I may be incorrect but I believe that the 14 year non-parole period handed down to Thomas Isaako was not just for the attack on David Keohane alone. There was also another attack (I think) 9 days later on another person. The 14 years was a sentence for two separate crimes. Also, attacking another person after the consequences to the first victim had been so widely publicised indicates a complete lack of remorse - he just went out and did the same thing again.

    • Angry Dude says:

      12:09pm | 27/05/10

      And then you get guys like Richard Pratt who defrauds the public of millions and millons of dollars through cartel behaviour and he just gets a fine and a state sponsored memorial service.

    • Martin G says:

      12:15pm | 27/05/10

      Anecdotally, I find most criminal justice these days slanted to far in the direction of rehabilition and pity for the criminal’s background (the latter should have no bearing on the judgement and sentence whatsoever), instead of factoring in such objectives as punishment and deterrence.

      The latter objective is much neglected, as shown by the increasing amount of disregard for the law these days. Just look at the assault figures in any major Australian city.

      In other words, the lefties have too much control over are criminal justice system, and the victims and society end up the losers.

    • Paul says:

      12:33pm | 27/05/10

      What happened to “an eye for an eye”? On top of that, as a taxpayer, my tax will be spent on this idiot’s food and lodging at the jail. Who’s the victim now?

    • Uncle Buck says:

      01:00pm | 27/05/10

      Your request for for Islamic Sharia Law is noted but rejected.

    • Greek Snake says:

      12:37pm | 27/05/10

      What is quite simply forgotten here is the quality of defence team in each case. Court cases are about theatrics, trust and character assassination.

      Quite obviously the defence for the Iraqi was better than the other case. It is also far easier to use the victim to your gain in David Keohane’s case. He is still alive, barely, and conjures up feelings of outrage, disgust and injustice when people consider he was bashed into this state.  A dead victim can’t speak, can’t portray those same feelings.

      While death is usually the worst outcome in violent crime, David sits in that “worse than death” category right now. Not dead, but far from alive.

    • Alexander says:

      12:50pm | 27/05/10

      Poor examples to compare as has been pointed out.  One a pre-meditated robbery leading to psychopathic violence, one just psychopathic violence between drunks.
      We keep making up simple and acceptable sounding names for these violent actions… brain-snap being the most recently popular, but really, to me, it psychopathic or psychotic behavior.
      If these people are a danger to society then they need to be removed and given the opportunity to recover from their illness.  If they are unable to recover then we need to decide what we are going to do to protect our selves.

    • Crystal says:

      01:26pm | 27/05/10

      What do we put people in prison for?
      is it to punish?
      or to rehabilitate?
      or a combination of the two?

      If it is Punishment, then no length of sentence can be adequate.
      If it is Rehabilitation, then conceivably the young man (Tello?) could be released tomorrow.
      If it is a combination, then from the limited info we have before us…it sounds as though the judge has got it pretty close.

      Oh, as an aside… ban alcohol and a more than fair chance neither of these horrific events would have ocurred.

    • Beau says:

      01:45pm | 27/05/10

      “A bloke who is prone to such uncharacteristic blow-ups that he will land a life-ending punch on an innocent kid will be walking free in five years, after the court took what I regard as an overly sympathetic view of his background.”

      Sounds like he’s not fit for asylum status and should be sent back. See how remorseful he is then.

    • At the Coal Face says:

      01:55pm | 27/05/10

      In my (at the coal face) experience, when people are fighting, and one goes to the ground, the kicks will always follow.  Kicks to the head.  It is very common nowadays.  In my opinion, anyone who punchs or kicks another, unless it is in the defence of themselves or another person, should be jailed for a very long time for murder/attempted murder/GBH/whatever.  And if you don’t know that your punch or kick can kill, then you should then be jailed for being a psychopath and removed from walking the streets with me and my family, and other law abiding australians.  I’m sick of it all.

    • julia says:

      01:58pm | 27/05/10

      I hate to sound callous, but in insurance payouts, death always rates lower than the sorts of injuries which caused the Irish fellow to be a vegetable.

      It doesn’t mean that the courts should forgive death as easily though. I think society hasn’t gone that far the wrong way that a man who kills isn’t as bad as a man who maims.

    • Fil says:

      02:02pm | 27/05/10

      This makes me sick to my stomach i cannot believe how murders can get leniency becuase of a terrible childhood!... ok so the courts look at the facts but I wonder if this happened to the judges son or grandson !! would he look at the facts?? They have the power to lay down the law but they dont.. police arrest these people only to have them walk away with some stupid 5 yr jail term which i am sure he will get tv and food and even a relationship with some pen pal, come out and probably do it again to someone else. I am disgusted and appalled by this decision and I hope the judge can still sleep at night knowing he will have a murderer out in 5yrs to possibly do this to someone else.

    • Michael says:

      06:33pm | 27/05/10

      If it were the judge’s son or grandson, the case would not be before him. It would not be reasonable to expect a (human being) judge to oversee the case and sentence on it dispassionately and everybody knows that.

      What you need to remember is that when we (as non-judicial citizens)read or hear about sheer horrific cases like this, it should be natural for us to feel anger toward those perpetrators and a desire for justice to the victims and their families. That is perfectly natural. If you agree with that, then you can surely understand that it would take a real degree of skill to sit at the bench, have the facts brought before you and be DISPASSIONATE in your ruling/s. Keeping in mind that dispassionate does not mean unfeeling or apathetic, but it does mean becoming a bit clinical about it and considering everything in a balanced view in spite of oneself. It’s called professionalism.

      The same way a doctor must become clinincal when it comes to death. There must be times when doctors who inform family that their loved one didn’t make it must feel like letting go of their emotions and grieve with the family, particularly if said doctor form a real bond with the diceased. But as professionals they are exopected to overcome that part of their natural being in order to do a job.

      It’s not an easy debate, but remember that nobody will ever be 100% satisfied with every nuance of law. Ever.

    • Steve says:

      02:23pm | 27/05/10

      Tone of comment is fairly universal. ie No deterrent penalties being imposed equals implied consent for this sort of behaviour to continue unabated. Politicians of all flavours will continue to make their empty ‘get tough’ speeches & try too create new laws & penalties for such offences. Why? A wheel is round, it does not need to be reinvented.

      Existing laws, in all states, if they were applied with the principles in which they were enacted are sufficient to deal with these oxygen thieves.

      Drugs & booze, most criminal codes specifically render this defence as irrelevant but defence lawyers, & Judiciary, keep using it as an excuse to justify whatever penalty they wish for.

      The criminal justice system is a misnomer as it should be renamed ‘Criminals Justice System’ as they, & I include defence lawyers, are they only individuals who receive positive outcomes from it.

      This all from personal experience. An unprovoked ‘king hit’, end up in an induced coma with severe lifelong head injuries which by the time it gets to court is “bruising”. Same offender sentenced concurrently for sexually assaulting his de facto & assaulting a 14 year old received probation and small fine. You get bigger fines for dropping litter!

      Justice, what is that? According to the judiciary in this ‘banana republic’ an apology is not even required for financially & professionally destroying a victim! Substantial errors have been made by various Govt Depts which they will never admit to because as Dudd & the comrades say “We are making decisions for all Australians, some of which may be unpopular”

      Victim - STIFF S__T

    • auserix says:

      12:31am | 28/05/10

      Steve , I think you’re right in drawing kruddy and his cohorts into this debate. It appears kruddy wants to take over everything else, so why not the judiciary? Get rid of the maximum sentences and replace them with minimum sentences. The same in all states. Take away the rights of bleeding hearts judges, magistrates and lawyers. Impose MINIMUM
      sentences for all violent crimes, and make them severe enough. That would not decrease the crimes committed, but it would remove these scumbags for longer periods.

    • RickofMelb says:

      02:26pm | 27/05/10

      Life on Mars, a series on how punishment was dished out by coppers and courts in the early 1970’s in England. We may be a more sophisticated society now, but as a dad, I hold grave concerns for this nation for all my children. Are are we a better society for all this sophistication? The end of the documentary just about some it up perfectly!!!!!!! NO….....

    • James says:

      02:33pm | 27/05/10

      Totally different situations, the courts also have the maximum information about the context these crimes took place in, so all this eye for an eye nonsense is just that. 

      In one case:  A person who had had a very tough upbringing (this is important as a violent environment leaves an impression on a person’s psychology) attacked another person in a drunking stupid fight accidentally killing him, with no previous record of this type of behaviour.

      In the second case”:  Three people lay in wait to rob someone who they then knocked out and repeatedly beat while they were unconcious to the point that the person has permenant brain damage.

      It is pretty easy to see with those facts who should be locked up for longer.

    • Jo says:

      02:38pm | 27/05/10

      You wanna really punish these blokes? Get them to be Mr Rudd’s staffers. Thats punishment baby!

    • mark says:

      02:40pm | 27/05/10

      Most judges, when sentencing do not represent community attitudes, so its up to us to inform our elected representatives its not good enough. Lets terminate the judges all too soft approach to crime and have a minimum sentence and no parole for all crimes. We should also make the offender pay for all the medical expenses for the life of the victim. The victim would not be in this position if not for the moronic behavior of these offenders.

    • iansand says:

      04:30pm | 27/05/10

      The problem is that you very rarely hear all the facts on which a sentence is based from our media.  The bad news is that there have been a few studdies done about this.  Lay people, when presented with all the facts, tend to give more lenient sentences than judges.

      All community debate about the criminal justice system is carried out in an information vacuum.  The media have a lot to answer for in the way that they are setting out to erode the faith of the community in our criminal justice system.

    • Kris says:

      03:35pm | 27/05/10

      All I can say is this - You are responsible for your own actions.

      Where you live, how you were brought up, what type of family or upbringing you have or whatever sad experiences you have had in the past shouldn’t have any bearing on this serious case.

      This country has shit laws. I love this country, I respect the law of this country but it is SHIT.

    • Carole says:

      04:45pm | 27/05/10

      Lawyers tell their clients what to say/do in order to get them the lightest sentence they can - that is the job of the lawyer.  A life needs to be given a set value ie 25yrs.  If you kill someone then you go to jail for 25yrs. If you kill 2 people it’s 50. If you were driving a car and was speeding or drunk same applies. None of this “oh woe is me, I had a hard life”. What about the poor people left behind who have lost a child/sibling/partner through their actions?  Tough Freakin Poop.  Do the crime, do the time. Unless harder sentences are handed down there will not be a deterrent.

    • Chris L says:

      06:32pm | 27/05/10

      What about the difference between intentional killing and accidental killing? What about the difference between repeat offenders and a single, tragic lapse in judgement?
      Unfortunately sentencing is a complicated process involving a miriad of varying factors, and this is because society is a complicated entity.

    • Gavin says:

      05:00pm | 27/05/10

      I don’t imagine that there are any judges in this blog. I find it amusing the way every-day-Joes love to offer their expert commentary on sentences as if they themselves are any experts on justice administration.

      Judges like other experts are guided by their education in applying their trade; it is not an arbitrary punishment such as it is with, say, parenting. They are guided by parametres and precedent cases.

      A doctor doesn’t just go prescribing any old drug, a surgeon doesn’t just slice someone open and fiddle aroud with their organs and a mechanic doesn’t simply pop the hood and tinker around with random parts. They are guided by their education and qualification and are rarely questioned by the average punter, who would have no more an idea on the subject than they would know how to construct a rocketship.

      A judge is eminently more qualified than you, me or any journalist who writes a 2-paragraph spread on a complex case.

      Frankly we non-judicial folk need to realise that we do not have a real clue as to what we are talking about when it comes to appropriate sentencing, anymore than we non-medical folk know the finer points of a quadruple bypass.

    • Bitten says:

      05:17pm | 27/05/10

      The law means nothing unless it serves the people. The law is dead unless behind it stands the warm living public opinion.

      So take your condescending attitude and shove it up your duff - love ‘Every-Day-Joe’

    • Sick of hypocracy & double standards says:

      05:32pm | 27/05/10

      Some of what you say is understandable.

      However how is a judge /magistrate going do decide an appropriate penalty if police do not collect, preserve and present ALL evidence in relation to a case.

      That, in some jurisdictions, defence lawyers publicly admit they like forming ‘relationships’ with these same ‘dispensers of justice’.  Amazing what a few tax deductible / billable dinners can do for your clients at sentencing.

      Judges as you say are supposedly experienced in these matters. How is it then that they DO NOT question the absence of ALL evidence prior to sentencing?

      Easy to explain if some ‘hidden commissions’ have been received by the court officers that chose the roles they undertake. Very difficult to explain any other way. No risk = no reward.

    • AdamC says:

      05:34pm | 27/05/10

      Gavin, your position is utterly fallacious. Would a chef respond to a diner’s complaint that their mussels are too salty with a snobbish declaration that they are the one with the ‘expert’ palette? Would the engineer declare that London Bridge is falling down only if and when, in his professional opinion, he decides that it is? The difference with these cases, of course, is that chefs and engineers are subject to public censure – judged aren’t.

      We do benefit from this judicial remoteness (especially from the demands of the executive) but we do not benefit when judges are able to hide behind dated notions of professional mystique to hand out sentences that are systematically below those set by the parliament (based on the maximum sentence). Sentencing principles should incorporate community standards of punishment and considerations of public safety, whether or not the legal elite want them to.

    • Gavin says:

      07:02pm | 27/05/10

      Bitten, this seeming single entitiy you call “public opinion” is a collective term for such a diverse opinion among individuals as well as lobby groups such as the Civil Libertarians and the Victims of Crimes (who would be diametrically opposed in their views on so many things). If Every-Day-Joe don’t like it, then Every-Day-Joe should attain a Law degree and work towards joing the bench, or be elected by their peers into Parliament and shape the laws themselves. Or try and convince the current Parliament to make changes.

      “Sick of hypocracy & double standards”, the responsibility in presenting all sufficient (and admissable) evidence rests with the Prosecution. If the collection and preservation of evidence from the police is unsatisfactory to the prosecutor who needs to mount a case, then that prosecutor should be riding those police to do their jobs. It’s not the judge’s/magistrate’s responsibility to go looking for the evidence, that is what police and prosecution is for. It would actually be a conflict of interest if the judge were to work on behalf of the prosecution. It would be like a referee tackling a player. As to your allusions to “hidden commissions” etc, every institution of power will suffer corruption from rotten apples. Always have and always will. Currently, if you have any reasonable suspicion of a judicial figure indulging in this and can prove it, I recommend you consult with the statutory watchdog body in the relevant state.

      AdamC, there is no perfect solution. At the moment there are appellent courts (as the name suggests, courts one can appeal sentences to, on certain grounds). Either way, a human being will make a decision based on their learned and educated experience. They research matters of law and appellant court cases. They accept submissions from defence and prosecution and endeavour to balance all relevent things out. Sometimes, any decision is too soft for some peoples’ uneducated and non-expert opinions.

    • Bitten says:

      11:39am | 01/06/10

      Oh, Gavin, how sweet! This every-day-joe actually has a law degree. This every-day-joe actually worked in litigation, family law and a little bit of criminal law. This every-day-joe is sick of the rank hypocrisy and the loftier-than-thou attitude that the judiciary (the public servants - am I wrong, or do they actually work for the public, the unwashed, those poor, poor souls who don’t have a law degree and ergo are too stupid to understand the law and we know better anyways) displays to the public, the innocent and law-abiding citizens.

      This every-day-joe got out because she couldn’t stand any more sentencing remarks that started with statements such as “Nothing I do here today can bring the victim back to his family…” No s**t Sherlock, am I at Lourdes? No? I’m in a goddam courtroom, you twat. Dispense some justice and shove the platitudes up your robes.

      This every-day-joe thinks the lawyers and the judges and the politicians should get off the mountain and come down amongst the little people. We’re pissed off. We’re angry. We’re sick of being told that the life of a hand-working, positively-contributing, law-abiding member of society is worth F. A. Our opinions do matter. Your attitude is offensive in the extreme - the idea that a person does not deserve to shape the law unless they occupy the lofty world of law degrees and politicial schmoozing typifies everything that is wrong with the legal profession and offshoots - the bar, the bench and the upper and lower houses. You patronising douche.

    • Nicko of Perth says:

      05:46pm | 27/05/10

      I have just returned from 3 years in Singapore and it was a pleasure to live in a place where they take crime seriously. The message the law in Singapore sends to would-be thugs is “be prepared to take responsibility for your actions”. Singapore’s approach works - ours much less so.

    • Paul Horn says:

      06:20pm | 27/05/10

      Spot on there Nicko. In fact if the Singaporean approach had been implemented here neither of these two crimes would even have occurred due to Singapores unmitigated success in curbing drug crime. Why the hell can we not import their eminently successful approach here?? 

      Oh the degenerate bleeding hearts will get all soppy and Amnesty will write nasty reports about how we infringe on criminals human rights!!

    • Michael says:

      12:01pm | 28/05/10

      It would be delightfully funny to see either of you two blokes facing a Singaporean court facing a serious charge, especially if you were innocent. In a country where it is up to the accused to prove their innocence.

      You would be screaming out for your “Human Rights” so quickly and pleading with us to get you out of that draconian “utopia” ASAP.

      Clueless.

    • Feral Wombat says:

      06:17pm | 27/05/10

      So Penbo, now you are censoring posts that point out that you made a mistake and then corrected it without acknowledging the original mistake? If I’d known that you would do that, I would have pointed out more of your errors in my original post.

      Not only wasn’t David Keohane assaulted outside a western Sydney pub (as you originally stated), he wasn’t assaulted outside a pub at all. His attackers followed him from the pub to Kidman Street, a quiet suburban street hundreds of metres from the pub.

      It’s a bit hard to believe that no one has attempted to point this out all day. Have you been busy censoring all day, Penbo? Perhaps the level of premeditation shown by these thugs would reflect poorly on the entire point of your article.

      Simple solution: just censor this post too!

    • spider says:

      09:45pm | 27/05/10

      These comments talk about taking responsibility as if sitting in prison for the rest of one’s life is the only way to do that.  I don’t understand what that achieves.  It’s purely punitive?  Is it catharsis for the horror we feel at these crimes?  Are we no better than Tello that we can’t process our negative emotions as a society without lashing out at those causing them? Is there any use to revenge?

      If long sentences are really necessary, we should despair.  People who need that kind of lesson don’t feel remorse.  They don’t want to reform for the sake of the community or to make something better of their lives.  If you beat someone to within an inch of their life, leave them a vegetable, and still need 20 years to think about it before you realise you shouldn’t have done that, then you are sub-human.  And I know that sadly, such people exist.

      But if Tello demonstrated genuine remorse for killing that man, then he’s already taken responsibility and he’ll live with that burden forever.  Prison is only part of his punishment.  It seems as though where the prison sentence leaves off, Tello’s conscience will more than make up for the other 15 years he’s not in prison.  What is prison going to teach him that he hasn’t already learnt the hard way?  What will a longer sentence for him provide society or the family?  A sense that vengeance has been wrought?  Will he really be any safer to us after 20 years in prison than he would after 5? 

      We need more public discussion over what incarceration and other judicial sentences achieve and what we want them to achieve.  I think people come to have a knee-jerk reaction that prison is the only thing that can satisfy, when it is really nothing more than a holding pen for people we don’t have better tools to deal with.  It’s a zero sum game.  It doesn’t always have to be.  But apparently, trying to make the best of a bad situation is insulting to the memory of the victim.  Somehow people feel more noble whey they belligerently demand that justice be wielded like a blunt and heavy sledgehammer (I’m talking more of the comments on here than the article, which I thought was well-written).

    • PM says:

      09:53pm | 27/05/10

      As far as 5 years for killing a person, well this judge needs to be reviewed and put on traffic duty obviously he/she is not fit to stand over more serious cases. They couldn’t have got it more wrong

    • RickofMelb says:

      12:31am | 28/05/10

      Comment from KRIS
      Well articulated KRIS, spot on, unfortunately were buggered mate, these very sophisticated people now run the show. They think very differently to the common man, their thinking is abstract and removed from the real world. PS Our Criminal Legal System is based on an English adversary system, It is not based on a search for the truth unlike the European system of justice. How does an educated man respect such a system not based on the truth????????

    • Michael says:

      09:12am | 28/05/10

      “They think very differently to the common man, their thinking is abstract and removed from the real world”

      A judge are we Rick?

    • Jim says:

      09:12am | 28/05/10

      Hardly news as this has been happening for decades - the Australian court system places next to no value on a human life. Several years ago I was disgusted after reading two stories in The Daily Telegraph…front page was a 21yo who had about 30 driving offences against his name, from speeding, DUI, driving while disqualified etc. He ended up running over and killing a toddler. He got a 6 month suspended sentence. Turn to page 2, a 40-something business man stole $6000 from the company he worked for to feed a gambling addiction - he got 6 years.

    • Lydia says:

      11:07am | 28/05/10

      I say we should stop having maximum sentences with non-parole periods and go to minimum sentences.  You only get let out when you’ve convinced the prison officials that you have genuine remorse, you have learned skills you will need to survive in a civilised manner once you leave jail and that you are not likely to reoffend.  That means many of these ratbags would never get out - ie a safer community for the rest of us and the prisoners would have to be nicer to the prison officials too.

    • jj says:

      11:45am | 28/05/10

      too much emphasis is placed on ‘no prior’ record’ for assualt, i know heaps of guys who have assaulted heaps of people, i ve been assaulted many times but there are no recorded convictions cos these assualts are not reported or not taken seriously by police. i was assaulted in a pub once by two people unprovoked and it took nearly 3 months for the cops to even get back to me..i gave up went overseas and the 2 thugs have never been charged..so they do it again and kill someone guess what - no prior record..its like rape 10 years ago very few were reported but at least now they have better support for victims are more likely to press charges..not so with assault

    • max says:

      12:25pm | 28/05/10

      Regardless the background or reasons (drug etc), we need capital punishment for these kind of acts. If one is capable of such crime then there is no place in the society for the person.

    • Martin Alster says:

      06:07pm | 29/05/10

      So you would prefer to live in a society that murders/executes people (& fervently hopes they have the actual offender) than one that absolutely believes this is wrong, as a form of punishment? I wouldn’t. Surely, two wrongs do not make a right?

    • Family Violence Lawyer says:

      01:58pm | 25/05/12

      Continue the wonderful good article, I just read couple of articles about this web page and i believe that the blog is rattling intriguing and consists of sets of helpful information.  http://www.toddleventhallaw.com/

 

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