Despite our web-interconnected, frequent-flyer, globalised world, we are still predominantly tribal people. We identify or invent enemies to scrap it out with, and occasionally this tribalism ends in violence. Extreme violence, as we’ve just seen in Oslo.

I reckon we should just drop around with a nice casserole. Still supplied from Walking with Cavemen documentary

Tribes were once small groups of families, communities that lived together. People survived and prospered because of their commitment to those groups. Now tribes might be religious, or cultural groups. They might be left wing or right wing, emos or nerds. Footy supporters. Gamers, Nazis, fetishists, gypsies, gun nuts or just plain nutters who’ve found something in common.

We huddle together, sometimes in peaceful solidarity, sometimes with spears raised to the outside world. We use clothing, our words, our beliefs, to signal our membership.

And in some cases the internet is heightening the eternal divide between ‘us’ and ‘them’, giving people any sort of rallying point they need, then the excuses and justifications for any actions in the name of the tribe.

The chilling, bloody, calculated massacre in Norway immediately drew comparisons with September 11, and premature speculators blamed al Qaida before the bodycounts came, and some persisted in blaming Muslims even once it was clear it was a right-wing Christian fundamentalist who carried out this atrocity. 

There’s plenty that’s still not clear about the accused, Anders Behring Breivik. The level of organisation of his ‘Knights Templar’, for example, whether he really is a foot soldier for a conservative revolutionary movement, or a lone ‘Crusader’.

But what is clear is that there is a similar evil at work to September 11 and other terrorism acts, which is extremism. Tribalism turned murderous; the idea that one group is superior to but under threat from another, and that threat must be snuffed out by whatever means possible.

For Muslim extremists, the threat is Western imperialism. For Breivik and other right-wing extremists the threat is multiculturalism, and Islam in particular.

Extremism of this sort is a wild and dangerous over-reaction to the perceived threat. The ‘other’ tribe is demonised, their impact exaggerated, the target unjustifiably broadened and their intent misconstrued.

The internet makes it easier than ever before to distort the threat. An extremist can take their twisted minds online and find vast stores of ‘proof’.

They can find stories that confirm their prejudices, and data to dispel any doubt. They can find like-minded tribespeople so they know they’re not alone, they can immerse themselves to a point where their hate is seamless, unassailable.

And then, of course, they can find the means to enact their vengeance on this enemy they have constructed from the megabytes of the world wide web, and they can research the ways to carry out their righteous duty, all the while assisted, comforted, enabled by the solidarity of their tribe.

It’s a huge, complex, disturbing problem. While we can point at Breivik and say ‘there is the villain of the tale’, there are many more Breiviks out there, and bin Ladens.

There are those so desperate to blame multiculturalism that they find their easy answers there; stop new tribes coming. Become isolationist, monocultural, or pick certain groups that just aren’t allowed.
They don’t believe humans can rise above violent tribalism.

Which is rubbish. Obviously most people live, work, and play happily with people from other ‘tribes’. Most people are not engaged in violent warfare with their neighbours just because they look different, sound different, pray differently or eat different food.

So we need to reject the idea that multiculturalism is to blame, and concentrate on these fringe dwelling extremists and how we stop them. There are no easy answers, but we need to stop wasting time asking the wrong questions.

Follow Tory on Twitter @ToryShepherd.

284 comments

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    • Erick says:

      06:04am | 26/07/11

      “it was a right-wing Christian fundamentalist who carried out this atrocity.”

      Your lefty atheist tribalism is showing. The shooter may have been right-sing, but he wasn’t particularly Christian, if at all - and definitely not a Christian fundamentalist.

      “The internet makes it easier than ever before to distort the threat. An extremist can take their twisted minds online and find vast stores of ‘proof’.”

      While this is true to some extent, this effect of the Internet isn’t exactly new. In the past, the mainstream media had a near-monopoly on viewpoints, information and theory, which was greatly abused. The main difference today is that there are competing sources of information.

      “So we need to reject the idea that multiculturalism is to blame, and concentrate on these fringe dwelling extremists and how we stop them. There are no easy answers, but we need to stop wasting time asking the wrong questions.”

      Arbitrarily declaring some questions “wrong” because they don’t fit in with your own ideology is not a good way to start. In fact, I’d suggest that those “wrong” questions are the ones we should be asking, because asking the “right” questions hasn’t solved much.

    • Super D says:

      06:44am | 26/07/11

      I saw somewhere in his writings he referred to himself as a “cultural christian”.  I would identify as something similar - as I imagine would the author -ass opposed to “cultural muslim” or “cultural buddhist”.  As such western nations would likely reflect “cultural christendom”.

      There is simply no evidence that this atrocity was committed to advance a religious cause or glorify a deity and it clearly wasn’t motivated by the prospect of virgins

    • Tedd says:

      07:09am | 26/07/11

      Super D,
      This atrocity was committed to maintain a status quo*, and thus to maintain a cause.

      The world has always changed, just more so in the last 100 years, and perceptively so with the advent of multi-media.

      The irony is the degree of multiculturalism that the likes of Anders B, and some Australians baulk at, is actually quite low.

      Another irony is Anders B stated aim to stop people joining the Norwegian Labour Party is a dead-set failure. People will join in future, so even one will negate his warped thought processes.

      * Saying he wasn’t Christian, when AndersB stated he was, and when he was clearly “anti-another-religion”, is the not-a-true-Scotsman fallacy.  Google it.

    • Sceptic says:

      07:23am | 26/07/11

      Humble pie Erick.

      We were just talking about Christian killings at abortion centres and Catholics vs Protestants in Ireland when you ran from the debate because it shattered your ‘no other people kill for a religion’ babble.

      Still in denial.  Sadly, for you, it ruins any credibility you might have for a logical argument when you let your own biases overwhelm you and acknowledge reality.

      Here we are again - Christian people do it too.

    • James1 says:

      07:25am | 26/07/11

      I would be interested to hear you explain why you think multiculturalism is to blame (if indeed that is what you think) for this man’s actions Erick?

      It seems to me that this man is responsible for his actions, and that multiculturalism was simply the excuse he used.  Further, it would seem a terrible injustice if his excuses were validated by Norway going after Muslims because of this man’s actions.  They might as well spit in the faces of the grieving parents.

      That is why attacking Muslims’ presence in the Nordic countries in response to this is indeed asking the wrong question.  Last time I looked, the targets of the anti-multiculturalists had nothing to do with this terrorist attack, and the anti-multiculturalists - indeed, a coherent, sane anti-multiculturalist who knew exactly what he was doing and has a reasonable level of support for his motives, if not his actions, as you argued yesterday - had everything to do with it.  How then does this lead to the type of discussion you are talking about?  In light of these facts, what are the “right” questions?

    • TChong says:

      07:50am | 26/07/11

      Super D
      Have you had a chance to read the fairfax press today?
      They have this christian terrorists diary on line.
      In it , this piece of filth invokes gods blessing to help him and fellow terrorists kill muslims.
      This guy identifies himself as a christian warrior, no ambiguity.
      Not a “cultural muslim,” or a “cultural buddhist”,
      but a proud christian murderer.

    • Kevin says:

      08:04am | 26/07/11

      “The internet makes it easier than ever before to distort the threat. An extremist can take their twisted minds online and find vast stores of ‘proof’.”
      I can see why Erick is uncomfortable with that comment.
      Hopefully the AFP and other agencies are now taking a closer look at some of the nutters inhabiting the internet.

    • Erick says:

      08:09am | 26/07/11

      @Tedd, Sceptic - Read what I actually wrote, not what you think I wrote. Also, read Super D’s comment.

      @James1 - This man is to blame for his own actions. I have never claimed otherwise.

      However, actions and events have causes. It is a common fallacy to believe that events have only one cause. This man, and what he did, have their roots in multiple causes.

      One of those causes is multiculturalism, and the stresses it places on society. A blanket ruling out of consideration of possible causes because some are uncomfortable to name will not lead to progress.

      There are many other possible causes. Yesterday, David V. posted a link which indicates another possible line of inquiry.

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MensIssuesOnline/message/17859

      I’ll quote part of it it here:

      “Today, however, the white male teen who is rejected by peers is also de facto rejected by the mainstream society that he sees: every school and media celebration of Blacks, gays, women, etc., is by omission, a denigration of straight white males. Middle- and upper-class white males are often referred to in the curriculum as oppressors and in sitcoms as boors or evil. Hollywood, in part in fear of being called racist, is bending over backwards to, where possible, make the bad guy a white male.

      “Most teens are deeply concerned with being accepted. Today’s middle-class white male teen, if rejected by peers, neglected by too-busy parents, and now, for the first time, denigrated by society, may consider violence; they feel unaccepted, unloved—an intolerable situation for many teens. While gun control and better parent-child communication are, of course, partial answers, I believe that an essential part of the solution is to ensure that the media and schools aren’t celebratory of everyone but white males.”

      As long as the causes aren’t addressed, the situation will get worse.

    • Mark G says:

      08:37am | 26/07/11

      Umm Erick,

      He has declared himself a templar knight. That’s an old religious order. Originally called temple knights because of there order HQs in the holy land during the crusades. He has openly called himself a crusader against Islam. Yes, he has also muttered about hating the left-wingers but that’s only because he sees them as the cause of the multicultural society and spread of Islam into Europe.

      On your second point,

      ‘The main difference today is that there are competing sources of information.’

      Just because they are alternative sources doesn’t make them credible. I think this massacre demonstrates that. As does the delusion of this man to think that people would listen to his cause after he killed 93 people. What people need to come to terms with is that MORE INFORMATION DOESN’T MEAN BETTER INFORMATION. Just because its from a non-mainstream media group doesn’t make in more accurate. In fact in most cases its the opposite.

    • Tedd says:

      08:43am | 26/07/11

      “Read what I actually wrote, not what you think I wrote.”
      = a common “special pleadling” for special consideration.

      Multiculturalism cannot be used as “cause’ - perhaps andersB views in conjunction with fostered xenophobia.  Besides, saying it is a primary cause is the Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

    • Chad C Mulligan says:

      09:07am | 26/07/11

      ‘As does the delusion of this man to think that people would listen to his cause after he killed 93 people.’

      Erick’s obviously listening.

    • Bev says:

      09:51am | 26/07/11

      Rejection. Another man in another time and for a different reason uttered these words.
      “There is nothing more dangerous than to build a society
      with a large segment of people in that society who feel
      that they have no stake in it; who feel that that have
      nothing to lose. People who have stake in their society,
      protect that society, but when they don’t have it,
      they unconsciously want to destroy it.”
      — Martin Luther King Jr.

      Multiculturism has been tried before under many different guises and the end result is always the same.  Call it civil war, call it culture war what but in the end if you have two different cultures trying to occupy the same space eventualy one is subsumed by the other.  If one looks at civil war which are always very bloody and hate filled as was the American civil war which was really a cultural war we can see the result. Like the civil war which occured when Yugoslavia broke down after Tito’s death.

      Erick draw a long bow in this case but there is an element of truth in the fact that feminism has attempted (quite successfuly) to isolate and demonize the male part of society.  Many young men won’t commit to marriage as they see it as a very bad bargain.  Others hurt by the system just try to rebuild their lives.  There will be a few (I suspect an increasing number) who will lash back at the society that they perceive has failed them.

    • RyaN says:

      09:52am | 26/07/11

      @James1: “I would be interested to hear you explain why you think multiculturalism is to blame”. While I wouldn’t like to answer for Erick, I would like to assert that had multiculturalism not existed in his country that this would never have happened. Or what do you think?

    • James1 says:

      09:52am | 26/07/11

      Interesting thoughts, Erick, and I agree that we need to ask all the questions.  However, I can’t help but wonder if, by looking too hard at multiculturalism, we might miss the point slightly.  It seems to me that, individual culpability beside, the type of far-right radicalism that spawned this man’s rampage is where the spotlight should shine primarily.  To relate this to another example, after the 9/11 attacks, the US didn’t look inward and blame themselves for AQ’s preferences or indeed really acknowledge that they were to blame as AQ claimed - they went onto the front foot and fought the extremists, as well they should.  It seems to me that a similar approach is required here.  If we lay the blame on multiculturalism primarily, that would simply affirm his cause in the minds of those with the same political views, and embolden their claims.

    • andye says:

      09:59am | 26/07/11

      @Erick - Looks like Norway’s lone crazed Christian problem is a lot worse than its Muslim problem.

      Also, reading further down… I cant click your link (blocked at work) but from your quote, it seems like you are arguing that a cause of this is that white boys dont feel like precious unique snowflakes because we celebrate black people or something? Oh dear. Where on earth are you going with this?

    • Tom says:

      10:17am | 26/07/11

      “As does the delusion of this man to think that people would listen to his cause after he killed 93 people.”

      Plenty of people listened (and contintue to listen) to the cleric who did the Bali bombing. 80 dead I believe. Plenty of people listened (and contintue to listen) to Bin Laden after he killed 4,000. Plenty of people read the Chant of Jimmy Blacksmith (Jimmy Governor in real life) and listened to his side of the story.

      In such a context, why would it be a “delusion”? Careful not to be racist in your responses.

      @James1 “I would be interested to hear you explain why you think multiculturalism is to blame”. The perpetrator stated that he did it because of multiculturalism.

    • RyaN says:

      10:28am | 26/07/11

      @James1: So lets see, if you and Tory claim this man is right wing then we can claim that Osama bin Laden and his followers are left wing?

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      10:38am | 26/07/11

      The “no true Scotsman” fallacy is the biggest load of bull. Atheists do love it though, because they can quote it in place of a logical argument.

      If I go on a killing spree and say I did it in the name of the Dalai Lama, does that make Buddhism a violent religion?

    • James1 says:

      10:55am | 26/07/11

      RyaN, my thoughts are we need to be careful about blaming the victim of toxic ideologies like far right racism or indeed socialism and communism.

      Likewise, had there never been any Jews in Germany, the Holocaust would never have happened.  Had there never been white settlers in South Africa and Zimbabwe, there would have been no apartheid or Ian Smith and there would be no persecution of white farmers there now.  Had the English never invaded Ireland, there would be no Northern Ireland problem.  See where this logic takes us?

      And on Bin Laden, only an idiot would claim he is left wing.  AQ is the most anti-feminist, racist, dictatorial organisation in existence.  That is not left wing.  But then, neither is it far right.

      Tom, that doesn’t mean that multiculturalism itself is to blame here.  This man and the toxic ideology he adheres to killed people.  Not multiculturalism.  He just used that as his excuse.

    • Tom says:

      11:20am | 26/07/11

      @James1, “He just used that as his excuse.” ... Err, no ...

      Far too simplistic James1. He didn’t just wake up and say, “I want to kill 80 people but I need an excuse. That’s it, I will use multiculturalism.”

      Multiculturalism drove him to do it as surely as jihad drove Bin Laden. Call it xenophobic, white supremist, “Tribalism” or whatever.

      Whereas violence is not considered to be the answer, to dismiss that multiculturalism was a root cause of that violence is just plain stupid.

    • Kika says:

      11:29am | 26/07/11

      Listen, armchair experts. Have you been to Norway? Have you spent much time there? Do you have relatives from there? Do you even know anything about Norway?

      Norway, unlike Australia (yes, we are NOTHING like Norway) are fiercely proud of their Christian heritage. Their flag, like all Scando flags, are testament to their pride in their Christian heritage. Even if they aren’t practicing Christians, religion is a big part of their culture. Much so than ours. They have a bucket load of public holidays for Christian festivals and feasts, not only do they baptise their kids still they even go through with confirmations (even if they aren’t 100% practicing Christians) and they are so proud of their Christian roots they really can’t stand any expressions of religion outside of their own. It’s true. Speak to a Norwegian (especially an older one).

      My brother in law had to even change his surname to marry his wife because her parents didn’t like how it wasn’t a Christian name, so he changed his name to his wife’s surname.

      Their pride in their Christianity is very strong and I wouldn’t be surprised if this nutter took this to the extreme. There IS an underlying anxiety about their country backsliding and allowing multiculturalism to flourish.

    • RyaN says:

      11:31am | 26/07/11

      @James1: so you won’t place Bin Laden anywhere but feel it ok to place this nutter as a right wing? Do you see the problem there?
      Quite frankly mate, this fruitcake, like Bin Laden is nowhere on the scale of right or left, he is a nutter. But don’t let that stop you heartless lefties from trying to score some political mileage out of it.

    • fml says:

      11:55am | 26/07/11

      Bev,

      Are you honestly using Martin Luther King as an example against multiculturalism?

    • James1 says:

      12:16pm | 26/07/11

      Once again RyaN, it is possible to be a moderate conservative.  I am conservative, but I oppose the far right because its violence terrifies me as much as the far left - more even, because these people are more extreme versions of myself.  I think this man is from the far right because he claims to be from the far right.

      I don’t place Bin Laden anywhere because he is not easy to place on the spectrum - extremist Islam is deeply conservative, even backwards looking, but it does not fit the Western conservative mold.  It is in a category all of its own.

      On multiculturalism, the ideology this man adheres to has been around long before multiculturalism.  To lay fundamental blame on multiculturalism misses the point - it is just the latest excuse used by these types.  And I have a strong feeling it will not be the last excuse either.

      And Tom, I don’t dismiss multiculturalism as a cause.  I dismiss the contention that it is the only cause.  This man’s toxic ideology and its violent tendencies had just as much to do with it as did multiculturalism.  I would also advise both of you to take a leaf out of Erick’s book and discuss the issues rather than calling people names like stupid and lefties. 

      “Far too simplistic James1. He didn’t just wake up and say, “I want to kill 80 people but I need an excuse. That’s it, I will use multiculturalism.””

      Except I didn’t say he did.  It is the excuse used by most, if not all, far right radicals at the moment.  In earlier periods it was other things - the so-called Jewish threat, Bolshevism, civil rights for racial minorities, and so on.  I am talking about a wider social trend, that has evolved over time and will no doubt continue to evolve.  It is far too simplistic to say “he did it because of multiculturalism and nothing more”.  We need to go deeper than that.

    • n_dude says:

      12:41pm | 26/07/11

      What’s there to say that this man is pure evil and if it wasn’t multiculturalism, then he would have found some other cause to hate like those who have some Danish Ancestry? Just as disaffected muslims turn to religion to justify their actions I believe that in this case the murderer turned to Christianity to justify his own hatreds.

    • Barry says:

      12:42pm | 26/07/11

      In 2010 in Europe, there were 179 arrests relating to Islamic terrorism with the intention of causing mass casualities, which is a 50% increase since 2009.  What he did is not justifiable, but those pretending the issue does not exist are just plain ignorant.

    • mike j says:

      12:47pm | 26/07/11

      “Christian people do it too.”

      But… Christianity doesn’t condone these behaviours, therefore he wasn’t a real Christian, so Christianity had nothing to do with it.

      Isn’t that how Muslims rationalise their exploding brethren?

    • iansand says:

      01:02pm | 26/07/11

      mike j - I’m betting he wasn’t a true Scotsman, either.

    • Bev says:

      01:07pm | 26/07/11

      fml says:11:55am | 26/07/11

      I am just saying his words can fit other circumstances.  Where you have two or more cultures occupying the same space one will emerge dominant though often pieces of the subsumed culture will appear in the end common culture.  Be it by peaceful or other means. Multiculturism (cultural or religious differences) when applied within a country have always resulted in trouble.

    • Tom says:

      01:10pm | 26/07/11

      James1,

      It is far too simplistic to say “he did it because of multiculturalism and nothing more”. I agree, however did anyone say that?

      I assert that it is far too simplistic to dismissively say “multiculturalism had nothing to do with it.” No-one said that either? See, we can play straw man all day.

      “We need to go deeper than that.” I agree.

      If you accept that violence begets violence and that Tory’s assertion that “Tribalism can lead to terrorism and tragedy”, how about accepting the possibility that multiculturalism begets tribalism?

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      01:15pm | 26/07/11

      The man’s religion had nothing to do with it.

      I imagine he was being fed up with immigrants in his country, particularly Muslim ones, and approached the problem in a psychopathic way. Let us not speculate as to whether he would have committed evil regardless of the situation in the country, as we cannot say with any degree of certainty. Some psychopaths commit evil regardless, but some are triggered to do so.

      His thoughts and ideas are not uncommon, especially in Australia, however most people here do not go on a killing spree, simply because they are either more mentally balanced or do not have access to firearms.

    • Erick says:

      01:22pm | 26/07/11

      @James1 - I’m not saying that we should place the blame on multiculturalism primarily. Or on Christianity, or right-wingism, or xenophobia, or whatever. Just that we should not exclude some possible influences simply because it is politically uncomfortable to question them.

      As I said before, events like this do not have one single cause. They are caused by many things. All of those things should be considered, and none excluded.

      The other point I raised has to do with alienation and disenfranchisement. Our society is systematically alienating white heterosexual males. If it gets to the point that significant numbers of these people think “This is not my society, this is not my government, these are not my people” - then there will be trouble.

    • fml says:

      01:22pm | 26/07/11

      Bev,

      No i really dont think what he said can be applied to your context. It is a total bastardisation of what he fought for. He would be rolling in his grave right now.

      And, No multiculturalism has not always ended in trouble. Australia was actually a shining example of Multiculturalism until john howard kicked up a nationalistic fervor, we were quite laid back then, now we all have a chip on our shoulder. Also Canada is quite a good example too.

    • James1 says:

      01:24pm | 26/07/11

      Like I say, the religious aspects of this are largely distractions.  It is all about politics.  If religion was truly central, why didn’t he shoot up a mosque on Friday afternoon, rather than shooting a bunch of left-wing children?

      The thing that scares the pants of me are the concurrent phenomena of assertive Islamism coupled with the resurgence of radical far-right politics. Both groups have a clear love of indiscriminate violence, and both groups have members ruthless enough to undertake what they see as being necessary.  All we need now is for a resurgence in the radical and anarchist left, and for them to move away from their petty ecoterrorism and towards more substantial forms of mass violence.

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      01:25pm | 26/07/11

      @  iansand

      See my post above regarding the Scotsman bollocks.

      It does not apply to the situation, as there is no formal code of conduct for Scottish people, as there is for Christians.

    • RickY says:

      01:47pm | 26/07/11

      Spot on Eric.Agree 100%.Personally i think multiculturism is a cancer & those constant deniers of it huge failings are living in a fantasy world.Alien cultures & beliefs are not comatible with each other & violence & tension is the result of having them forced together.

    • James1 says:

      01:48pm | 26/07/11

      “how about accepting the possibility that multiculturalism begets tribalism?”

      Hopefully we can avoid the whole chicken and egg thing here, but my view is that tribalism comes first, and in turn leads people to oppose what they see as different.  Australian history is indeed the history of different tribes meeting, disagreeing, forging a consensus, and then getting on with the business of living.  Europe does not have this history - indeed, historically Europe has been very bad at dealing with internal differences (think of what the Germans, and to a lesser extent, their Nordic fellow-travellers did to the Jews and Gypsys - is it really that surprising this happened in Norway?).  As such I am not surprised it has come to the current situation there, with extremist Islam gaining a foothold and assisting this type of far-right radicalism in its resurgence, which is not to say it is causing it.  However, I maintain that our circumstances are quite different, and indeed show that multiculturalism, which has been here since the first fleet disgorged English Protestants and Irish Catholic Nationalists onto these shores, can assist in overcoming tribalism.  It just needs to be managed.

    • Margot says:

      01:56pm | 26/07/11

      I think we are all focusing on ethnic tribalism being the root cause more than we should.He didn’t attack Muslims or other minorities he attacked his own people which shows that although his ideology is mixed up with xenophobia his main hatred is society itself. He hates his own people(that is his own people who don’t think like him) as much as anyone else and this is much more frightening than straight forward xenophobia.
      Look at the punch for example.Everyday we sling crap at each other,(I’m a perpetrator as much as anyone else) us on the left calling those on the right hate filled, fascist malcontents and the right returning fire accusing us of being spineless,latte sipping apologists.What happened in Norway is simply a bigger, more devastating version of whats going on everyday between the left and the right.The left controls most of the free world and the right feel disenfranchised.The questions I think need to be asked have nothing to do with multiculturalism but why so much seething hatred exists between right wing and the left wing.I catch myself no even bothering to listen and think about right wing arguments(even when the are eloquent, well thought out arguments like Ericks) and I’m ashamed of that and have no idea why I do it.I think the social divide between political ideology is much more important issue to examine.

    • James1 says:

      01:58pm | 26/07/11

      Erick, as usual I understand your point on the disenfranchisement, but I just don’t feel it myself.  Honouring something else does not leave me feeling excluded.  In any case, perhaps I am one of the minorities you feel is excluding you - twice a year I celebrate my background (St Patrick’s Day and Easter Sunday to commemorate the founding of the Irish Free State), and there is even a display at the National Museum here in Canberra honouring the contribution of my ancestors to this country.

    • Tom says:

      02:29pm | 26/07/11

      James1, ... “Both groups have a clear love of indiscriminate violence”. Wrong again James1. There is no equivalence.

      On one hand, you have the Bali bombings (80) which outnumbers the deaths in Norway. Then you have 9/11 (4,000). Then you have Aceh indiscriminate killings ... Should we go on or have you got the intellectual rigour to admit there is no equivalence?

      If anything, far right groups have just joined the violence out of frustration at the western governments that have been too bloated or dimwitted to properly protect their constituents or listen to them. This is corrolated by a wide ballot box movement away from the left who are perceived to have their heads up their arses.

      The response from the left has been to attempt to marginalise those concerns and villify people who express them as “xenophobic” or “ignorant”. At its worst, it sees the proponents of the left attacking media who do not agree to spread the left’s “world view”.

    • Erick says:

      02:42pm | 26/07/11

      @Margot - Thank you for that thoughtful comment. Yes, we are being buried in layers of hate from both sides. I would like to call a truce for peaceful discussion. I think peace is usually better than violence.

      @James1 - I’m glad you don’t feel excluded. Unfortunately, many other people do. It’s not the fault of the “minorities” at all - it’s the fault of misguided ideologies that promote discrimination against white male heterosexuals as the answer to perceived inequalities.

    • James1 says:

      03:19pm | 26/07/11

      There is no equivalence in numbers if we use the last 15 years as an example, as you have here.  I am more historically minded and like to place things in a wider context.  If we go further back, the equivalence starts to stack up.  Remember, between 1939 and 1945 far right radicals murdered 6000000 Jews.  In any case, the radical right’s resurgence - as evidenced by this event, Russia’s skinhead murders, EDL rioting, and other incidents, demonstrates a pattern of increasing radicalism and while it may not be as spectacular and violent as extremist Islam, it certainly seems to have the capacity.  Let us hope this capacity is not realised.

      Also, you make a factual error.  2750 people died in the 9/11 attacks.

    • Shooter says:

      03:55pm | 26/07/11

      RyaN didnt the killer kill left wing devotees? So what would that make him? Its funny when you dont like the truth you try to make up your own and then force it on people. Similar to Muslim extremists

    • Liam says:

      03:59pm | 26/07/11

      Sir Erick, Once again the voice of reason in a world of liberal leftie BS

    • Bev says:

      04:07pm | 26/07/11

      fml says:01:22pm | 26/07/11

      And, No multiculturalism has not always ended in trouble. Australia was actually a shining example of Multiculturalism until john howard kicked up a nationalistic fervor

      John Howard publicly articulated what a great many people on the ground observed on a day to day basis and brought it into the light for discussion.  Wheras before anybody who dared disagree was attacked and pilloried which just makes it worse.  I go back to the example of Yugoslavia.  Tito kept the lid on what was an explosive multicultural situation (which went back 800 years) with a heavy hand.  When he died the powder keg exploded.
      In a similar fashion the differences between the west and islam go back for over 1000 years. This is not to say that different cultures provided the differences are not great can not assimilate. 

      The beauty of great quotes is they remain just that and people find meaning and wisdom in them when applied to different things at different times far removed from the situation in which they were uttered.

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      04:08pm | 26/07/11

      @ iansand

      Hahaha, nah, definitely bollocks. Big human bollocks.

      To be serious though, I think the “no true Scotsman” fallacy is not relevant to “no true Christian” saying. In one case, there are pre-requisites, like if you want to be called Christian, you have to be a morally good person. There is no pre-requisite for being a Scotsman other than being born in Scotland, or maybe, elsewhere, to Scottish parents. That is how I logically differentiate the two anyway.

    • iansand says:

      04:29pm | 26/07/11

      Then Thgomas Anderson, you do not understand the fallacy.

    • Liam says:

      04:35pm | 26/07/11

      @fml says: 01:22pm | 26/07/11
      I think Bev has hit the nail on the head.
      If you want to take the USA as an example, you had 2 very distinct cultures in the states, the North and South. (in a nutshell) there was the south, the white separatist/segregationists and then there were the northerners and blacks who wanted equality, a fair call.
      40 years on and what do we have. 1 culture that is built on equality and the previous culture is all but ground out into klan meetings and such, where supporters of the ‘old firm’ are called bigots, racists, rednecks and the list goes on.

      Cultures are like tribes, only 1 can occupy the same corresponding space and time, and when 2 tribes/cultures come into contact they will usually conflict over a number of things (land/resources/ideologies)
      And fml, your confusing multiculturalism with multiracial.
      King was a campaigner for equal rights for his race, not so much for his culture. He did not want a separate culture for blacks and white and have both treated as equals. He wanted 1 culture for 1 america,
      ‘where little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers’.

      Cutlures/races/ideologies have been conflicting since the dawn of time
      Demigods V One God, Catholic V Protestant, Islam V Judaism, Islam V Catholicism, Catholicism V Judaism, Sunni V Shi’ite, Hinduism V Islam, Islam V Buddhism, Arab Muslims V Black Muslims, Arab/Black Muslims V Black Christians/local tribal religions.

      And many many more which I care not to mention

    • Tom says:

      04:43pm | 26/07/11

      James1, I believe that, if your search for equivalence takes you back to 1945, you are straying from the here and now.

      In quoting 1945 you are in risky territory because the Nazis were socialists rather than Christians and the punitive Treaty of Versailles contributed greatly to the susceptibility of the Germans to become chauvinistic. The slaughter of the Jews was nationalistic and racist rather than necessarily born of a religious fervour.

      On the matter of 1943, you might wish to look up the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el-Husseini. Yes, religious.

      But we both would agree that it was bad. I just don’t buy the equivalence thing.

      Thanks for correcting my 4,000 figure.

    • James1 says:

      05:09pm | 26/07/11

      Tom, just to correct you once more - I don’t think this fellow did what he did because he is Christian - I think his religion is irrelevant to his actions.

      Also, the Nazis were not socialists - that was just what they named themselves - and I do not think they were overtly religious either.  They did not abolish private property, or nationalise the means of production, or any of the things that a good socialist does.  Even while the state was directing war production post-1937, they still allowed the actual means of production to stay in private hands, and further allowed non-Jewish capitalists to get very, very rich from it.  Hitler made it absolutely clear that he was not a left wing socialist, and the Nazi Party is almost universally recognised (curiously, some on the far right disown it, others like the KKK and skinheads embrace it) as a secular and radical far right racialist political movement.

      Overall, I think our disagreement (multiculturalism aside) comes down to definitions of equivalence.

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      05:21pm | 26/07/11

      @ iansand

      Perhaps I do not, please indulge me with an explanation, that way we will know we’re on the same page.

      And if you’re feeling up to it, please explain how my differentiation of the two examples is flawed.

      I anticipate your response with great eagerness smile

    • RyaN says:

      05:33pm | 26/07/11

      @Shooter: do enlighten me where I forced my view upon anyone? I never forced you to read it now did I?

    • Erick says:

      05:34pm | 26/07/11

      @James1 - If you’re going to delve back into history, I should remind you that the left-wing dictator Josef Stalin murdered 10,000,000 Ukrainians before Hitler even got started. And that’s leaving out the left-wing Mao and the left-wing Pol Pot.

    • iansand says:

      06:11pm | 26/07/11

      Oh come on, Thomas.  The not a true Scotsman fallacy says that, if someone does something inconsistent with your conception of what a member of a particular class should do, they cannot be a true member of that class.  It is exactly what you are doing.  The source of the “rules” of the class are irrelevant.

    • iansand says:

      06:17pm | 26/07/11

      What we need is a definitive league table of atrocities, allocated to the “left” and “right”.  Surely this dispute could be reduced to proper statistical analysis.  Then we can declare a winner.

      My hope is that the task will take so much time that the antagonists will shut the fuck up for a few years because it is an utterly sterile, pointless and more than slightly repulsive exercise.

    • James1 says:

      06:17pm | 26/07/11

      I won’t argue with that Erick - only a fool would deny that the far left is just as capable of terrible violence as is the far right and the Islamists.  I thought you knew me better than that.

    • Servaas says:

      08:25pm | 26/07/11

      If Anders is Christian, he is certainly not an extremist or fundamentalist but rather a ‘rookie’ or ‘undiscipled’ Christian. He then has a misunderstanding of the fundamentals of the faith and person (Jesus) he follows. He ought to become more fundamentalist then. He does seem more like a cultural Christian indeed, following the general values of his nation brought about by Christian reform through the years but he cares not much about the actual instruction of the Bible or relationship with God and so forth.

      Christian people who act un-Christian does what Anders did. Anders was a non-extremist, non-fundamental Christian who was rather lead by his own ideas than the teachings of the faith.

    • Aaron says:

      08:28pm | 26/07/11

      @Tom… Hitler also didn’t wake up one morning and decide that the Jews were the cause of all that was wrong in Germany, his rationale came about from Germany’s defeat in WWI and looking for someone to blame, as a result he blamed Germanic Jews who didn’t fight for Germany. It was decades of resentment that resulted in Hitler declaring war upon Jews and then the world.

      Given the recorded and suggested history of the Knights Templar, his linking himself to them send shudders down my spine, it has been suggested the Knights Templar fell into demonic worshipping although it has also been suggested they refused to hand over the Holy Grail to the Pope through fear that the Pope was unworthy. Whichever way you look at it the Knights Templar were and most likely still are the most powerful organisation around, more so than the Masons.

      The fact that so many of you view multiculturalism as wrong (as do the KKK and many other white supremacy groups) because “they are different to us” tells volumes about the type of people you are.

      @Erick you sadden me as I have lost all respect for you, you started off as a voice in the darkness for young men like myself, now I have come to see that you don’t agree with anything that might mean a smaller piece of the pie for yourself.

      The true way forward is to work with others, so many people including Christians have lost sight of this simple teaching by Christ. I myself don’t follow any religion because they all seem to have a “we must convert people so we look good in the eyes of God, Allah, Yahweh”.

    • Chris L says:

      08:30pm | 26/07/11

      I’m just glad this has people talking about multiculturalism. I’m quite comfortable with multiculturalism myself, but as long as people are blaming that they’re not coming for my computer games!

    • Tom says:

      09:21am | 27/07/11

      James 1,

      “Members of the Nazi Party identified themselves as Nationalsozialisten (National Socialists), rarely as Nazis.” Sorry about the Wiki quote but I am not about to debate some of their shortfalls in purity of their socialism.

      “I don’t think this fellow did what he did because he is Christian - I think his religion is irrelevant to his actions.” He was pretty gung-ho about his association with the Knights Templar. Again we could split hairs on purity of their actions, except the Knights Templar to me says association with (not necessarily observance of) Christianity.

      Again, I don’t buy equivalance here. In the general sense, “equivalence” is an overused thought-stopping device and detrimental to proper debate and dumbs down the capacity of a society to discriminate. That in turn jeopardises survival.

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      02:08pm | 27/07/11

      @ Erick

      Are you sure about that number, mate, with regards to Stalin? I don’t think 10 mil of just Ukrainians (pre WW2) is accurate.

      @ iansand

      “Oh come on, Thomas.  The not a true Scotsman fallacy says that, if someone does something inconsistent with your conception of what a member of a particular class should do, they cannot be a true member of that class.  It is exactly what you are doing.  The source of the “rules” of the class are irrelevant.”

      Precisely! Our Norwegian psycho is not only inconsistent with MY conception of what a Christian should do, but he is inconsistent with the very definition of a Christian!

      A person who has no clue about how to fire a rifle is not a true sniper, even if he shouts “I AM A SNIPER” from the rooftops, because by definition, a sniper should be able to fire a rifle. I can safely say “this man is not a true sniper” without committing any fallacies.

      I am glad that together, we have worked out this logical puzzle and came to the same conclusion smile

    • Bill Door says:

      06:48am | 26/07/11

      “Your lefty atheist tribalism is showing. The shooter may have been right-sing, but he wasn’t particularly Christian, if at all - and definitely not a Christian fundamentalist.”

      @Erick

      Saying it isn’t so doesn’t change the fact that he was. Multiculturalism didn’t make this guy commit these evil acts. His Xenophobia did. All the reason he has given for what he did are based in Xenophobia.

      “What most people still do not understand is that the ongoing Islamicisation of Europe cannot be stopped before one gets to grip with the political doctrine which makes it possible,” he wrote. His other reasons are based in his Right wing beliefs such as he was anti- multiculturalism, anti- political correctness and anti-Marxism. And then there is the fact that he saw himself a a Knight associated with the Knights Templar and his wish for a crusade against Muslims.

      It is 100% to call this guy a Right wing Christian fundamentalist. Because that is what he is.

    • Pete says:

      09:26am | 26/07/11

      Spot on Tedd, as education and general prosperity increase in a society so the strict adherance to religion wanes. This is a trend repeated in most western countries and as you say is begining to happen in the Middle East as well.

    • Bill Murray says:

      09:29am | 26/07/11

      Few things are more likely to cause people to assemble into ‘tribes’ than the oppression of a perceived common threat or enemy. You know, like a minority government trying to impose laws, taxes and mores of behaviour that the majority neither agree with nor consent to.

    • fml says:

      10:32am | 26/07/11

      Agree Tedd,

      I would argue, its the choice and exposure that is brought about by multiculturalism that is partly the cause for the decline of religion. I dont think its a plot by anybody, i think its quite the opposite, you are not forced to join a religion, you read and learn about other religions and cultures and you make a choice that is right for you.

      Its the people who have a vested interest in religion and its sanctity that brand the fundamental human right that we have in this country, which is, free choice of religion that see it as some marxist conspiracy.

    • Timmy says:

      12:15pm | 26/07/11

      Bill

      Most of what you said makes this guy a right wing extremist, but nothing points particularly to anything more than a yearning for “cultural Christianity” > This is adherence of Christian festivals and specific important rights at certain stages during ones life, but not actually going to church or allowing theology/doctrine to guide their life. It is similar to us supporting with pride the socceroos at World Cup time or in important games, but not giving a rats about the game at the local level. A true soccer fundamentalist lives and breaths and probably plays the game.

      No one making the claim that he is a Christian Fundamentalist can point to him displaying any of the normal traits of a Christian Fundamentalist. He doesn’t mention God, Jesus or the bible much (if at all). I have read no report where he says he did this in the name of God or Jesus. No priest or pastor has been interviewed by the media for his back story.

      I have more cause to be referred to as a Christian Fundamentalist than this guy. I do go to church, I do read my bible and try to apply it to my life.

      Incidentally I don’t own a gun and my last violent act was to punch a bully who was picking on my mate when I was in year 10 and I did that in the name of reflexive anger.

    • Bill Door says:

      01:33pm | 26/07/11

      @Timmy

      In his 1500 page manifesto he mentions Jesus 48 times, Christianity 16 times, Christian 13 times, God 28 times, crusades 41 times, the Pope 93 times and the Bible 28 times.

      Here’s a passage from his manifesto.

      The Bible tells us that we are now all good soldiers of Jesus Christ. Whether we want to face up to it or not, we are all living in a war zone as a result of the curse of Adam and Eve that is still in full operation on this earth. Anyone of us at anytime can come under human or demonic attack. The daily news will prove that to you without any shadow of a doubt.

      Each Christian must now make their own personal decision on all of this. You can either choose to learn how to rise up in the power of your Lord and Saviour and learn how to become a true warrior in the Lord, or you can continue to keep your head in the sand and oppressor after oppressor keep beating you down. The choice is yours.

      HIs bold.

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      02:51pm | 26/07/11

      @ Bill Door

      Surely a Christian fundamentalist would not disregard one of the Commandments so blatantly? I may be wrong, but I always thought that Jesus taught people to love their enemies and commit no violence.

    • Rose says:

      03:08pm | 26/07/11

      “No priest or pastor has been interviewed by the media for his back story”. You’re right, it seems that the same media that goes to great lengths to connect the terrorist acts of fundamentalist Muslims to ordinary run of the mill Muslims is doing everything it can to ensure

    • Rose says:

      03:39pm | 26/07/11

      Oops cut myself off…
      “No priest or pastor has been interviewed by the media for his back story”. You’re right, it seems that the same media that goes to great lengths to connect the terrorist acts of fundamentalist Muslims to ordinary run of the mill Muslims is doing everything it can to ensure there is a distinction made between this terrorist fundamentalist Christian and ordinary run of the mill Christians!
      Fact is that this man is an evil murderous bastard who justifies his hate and anger with a twisted, completely distorted version of Christianity.

    • Bill Door says:

      04:55pm | 26/07/11

      I may be wrong, but I always thought that Jesus taught people to love their enemies and commit no violence.

      @Thomas Anderson

      Please elaborate on your love of Bin Laden?

      @Rose

      There are many Muslims how claim that Bin Laden and his cohorts never represented Islam.

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      05:30pm | 26/07/11

      @ Bill Door

      Well, I never loved Bin Laden. I never cared enough about him to either love or hate him to be honest. But let’s say, I lost someone during 911, I am sure I would hate him. I am not Jesus, I do not claim to be perfect, but I do try. I did think his murder and the surrounding media hype were quite disgusting though, no human’s death should be celebrated the way it was.

      Anyway, I welcome you to address the point I made in the previous post, namely that a committed Christian would never kill someone, let along innocent people.

    • Bill Door says:

      06:27pm | 26/07/11

      @Thomas Anderson

      Your kidding right?

      The crusades, The Tudors butchering first Catholics and then non-Catholics. Their is a reason why Queen Mary is called blood Mary. Then there is Martin Luther who round a bunch of Jews in a barn and set fire to it kill everyone inside. History is littered with Christians murdering people.

    • Tedd says:

      07:13am | 26/07/11

      Great article about Tribalism, Tory.

      Despite tribalism, the things that unit most of us as human beings* are far greater than the things that divide us.

      * a desire to enjoy life & the world
      * a desire to care for family & friends
      * a desire to contribute to the world

    • Chad C Mulligan says:

      09:09am | 26/07/11

      Everybody want to see the game on Saturday,
      Everybody want to be somebody’s friend.

      Burning Spear

    • Tom says:

      11:42am | 26/07/11

      Aw shucks, Tedd. Stop it mate, you’re making me cry.

    • Kika says:

      12:01pm | 26/07/11

      If that was the case, and it would be lovely if it were true, the world wouldn’t be as fked as it is now.

    • Tedd says:

      02:53pm | 26/07/11

      Aw shucks, Tom. Let get you a tissue.

      Or shall I get a water-recycling thingy for our communal garden?

    • Mike says:

      07:13am | 26/07/11

      Well the flip side to “tribes” is that if you take for instance mono-cultural small towns, they have lower crime rates, look out for each other a lot more, have a far greater sense of community and together-ness, and for some people, still hold onto more morals, have sold out less to banks and financiers, real estate developers, the latest over-hyped over-marketed pop culture, the general rip-off culture that’s gotten a lot worse over the years, and the quick buck mass immigration (passed off as oh-so-desirable multiculturalism) offers. Those “small towns” were what our big cities looked like not too many decades ago. So no, the concept of “tribe” isn’t all bad based on what a few nutters do. Hell, ask the Aborigines.

    • Cat says:

      10:00am | 26/07/11

      would love some links if you have them, I’m interested to see what variables they looked at - eg. can the same be said of any small town even if there are different cultures and if not, does it depend on the levels of communiuty xenophobia? I think just about every person I know who has moved to a small town has suffered from being “not one of the locals” reguardless of their background and similarities so you could also say it promotes even worse xenophobia. Commenting on morals is a bit dubious as they vary hugely and holding on to certain ideas may not actually be a good thing, the banks/financiers/real estate/pop culture is likely more a matter of location than any special wisdom derived from being in a mono-cultural small town, and of course it follows that perhaps they will also miss out on things like educational opportunities, a variety of services necessary or just good to have ect. ect.  interesting subject though!

    • fml says:

      10:37am | 26/07/11

      Mike,

      Seems like your grasping at the stereotype of a laid back country town. I agree with cat that some small towns dont like outsiders, i think this is an example of the tribalism that Tory was talking about.

      Its the friction which results from change that causes unrest, Holding on to an idea in a world that is constantly changing is the first step in creating fear, which then leads to violence. The first step to less violence is accepting change. Obviously you dont have to change, or accept anyone else that is different, but then you can’t surprised if that results in unrest.

    • Tom says:

      03:44pm | 26/07/11

      @fml, ... “The first step to less violence is accepting change.” Your penning of this sentence shows that you lay complete responsibility for violence on conservatives rather than people pushing the “new way”.

      Very cunning, very glib as a mantra, but I am not buying it.

      BTW: I think our indigenous brothers might also find your sentence offensive and insensitive.

    • fml says:

      04:15pm | 26/07/11

      Tom,

      dont care if you buy it or not, just as long as you conservatives let me live my life the way i want and dont take away my freedoms, you can keep your pissing contest aslong as you want. I will live in my multicultural suburbs filled with diversity and crime, and you can live in you white picket fence world where you keep apple pies on the windowa dn watch mary poppins.

    • Rose says:

      04:47pm | 26/07/11

      Actually, I imagine the best way to end violence is to do everything you can to restore respect.That is respect between all ‘tribes’ and respect which flows all ways. The current ‘Conservative’ position seems to require asylum seekers and refugees treat Australians with respect while ignoring their responsibility to show them respect. Australia seems to have lost the ability to host any respectful debate and for that I blame the likes of John Howard, Peter Costello and Tony Abbott while I blame the Laborites for responding in kind rather than trying to uphold any respectful standards.I doubt whether respect can be restored until we get a new crop of politicians who understand that it is possible to disagree with some one without descending into petty pointscoring and cheap shots

    • Tom says:

      05:18pm | 26/07/11

      @fml, great movie isn’t it. Never liked Straw Dogs much but hey if that is your thing, far be it from me to take away your freedoms.

      BTW: ” let me live my life the way i want” seems to be a bit at odds with your other statement “The first step to less violence is accepting change.” Neither you nor the conservatives enjoy having someone forcing change on your worlds. You have more in common with the conservatives than you first thought.

      @Rose, you claim to abhor cheap shots then go after Howard and Costello. to assert that Labor is only responding in kind is .... gee whizz .... kinda naive.

    • d says:

      07:16am | 26/07/11

      Ok lets back this up…

      “Footy supporters. Gamers, Nazis, fetishists, gypsies, gun nuts or just plain nutters who’ve found something in common.”

      So are you saying that gamers are in the same bag as footy supporters and Natzis? all we ask for is for the right to have adult games marked as adult games. the average age of a gamer is 29 but the highest rating for a game is MA15+. Your kids can go and buy material that in all other civilised lands is restricted to 18+.

      Gamers may suffer nerd rage occasionally and if you are a controller you may want to get an AVO on some users but i fail to see how you could compair gamers to Natzi’s?

    • Michael says:

      09:38am | 26/07/11

      Look at the behaviour displayed, then transfer the behaviour to another area of enjoyment ie. footy, motor sports etc.

      Gamers vs non gamers, geeks vs jocks, rugby vs footy, for the sake of the story consider each a tribe.

      The general underlying behaviour remains the same, the flavour (tribe) is different.

    • Tory Shepherd

      Tory Shepherd says:

      12:16pm | 26/07/11

      Hey d - I compared them in the narrow sense that they are all ‘tribes’ and I made it clear that only some members of some tribes turn deadly.

    • Tator says:

      02:22pm | 26/07/11

      Tory,
      Most gamers do turn deadly, at least when deathmatching, fragging noobs or playing Angry Birds

    • Chris L says:

      09:15pm | 26/07/11

      I don’t think D intended their comment to be taken too seriously. Besides, I’m sure Tory would only have included gamers with footy supporters as an irony, let alone with nazis!

    • Joan says:

      07:30am | 26/07/11

      The rate of change is too rapid for most people to deal with. Go to the burbs where the face of change is most rapid. Not everyone one can accept this rapid change, where the things that were familiar are now unfimilair in just a short space of time such as 10 years. Most people can accept gradual change especially when it happens in someone elses back yard and not theirs.

    • Tedd says:

      07:38am | 26/07/11

      I think its not just the rate of change but the hype around it.

      Media & multi-media hype people up more than they got hyped in the past.

    • fml says:

      12:46pm | 26/07/11

      Joan,

      would it be simpler to slow change, or, would it be easier to accept change?

    • OchreBunyip says:

      02:19pm | 26/07/11

      @Joan, as a general rule humans do not enjoy change unless they feel they are contributing to its nature and they can see a benefit to the change that exceeds any perceived costs. For many years, change management has been a known quantity in business and successful companies make sure those affected by any change are involved and informed. The answer really is to involve people more in the changes that occur; change is not going to slow down no matter how much we might like it to. The productive alternative is to learn how to manage change and extract the maximum benefit from it.

    • Que says:

      07:32am | 26/07/11

      “Obviously most people live, work, and play happily with people from other ‘tribes’.”

      Mostly yes. But there is friction as well. The arguments that immigration is entirely to blame or entirely not to blame are both silly. The reality is that it is a bit of both.

      I lived in Sweden for 3 years and the problems building in society there directly as a result of too much immigration without integration is truly frightening. Just take Rosengard in Malmo as an example. And yes there are some benefits as well.

      Oh, BTW you can add people who believe immigration is **not** the cause of problems to the list of Nazi, gamers, footy supporters. It’s the same absolutist thinkset.

    • Adam Diver says:

      09:38am | 26/07/11

      Sorry Que, it either one extreme or the other. There is no middle ground on these issues haven’t you got the memo?

      This whole story, is a symbol of nothing, its a single lone person committing a huge atrocity. There is no pattern or conclusions that can be drawn from a single event. Anyone who tries is simply pushing their own agenda.

    • iansand says:

      10:13am | 26/07/11

      However, it is possible to draw conclusions from responses to the event.  A few people here have not done very well.

    • Kika says:

      12:05pm | 26/07/11

      I don’t know about Sweden Que, but I spent a bit of time in Norway and have relatives over there. Norwegians are very much about retaining THEIR culture and expect immigrants to assimilate at all costs. Sweden may have been more open to immigration for longer, but I think the entire Scandinavian ‘sunshine and lollipops’ worldview (i.e. their very left liberal ways) is changing because they don’t have the same social cohesion and homogenity as they used to. And they are coming to terms with that now and it’s really something they are concerned about.

      I remember my relatives saying they were concerned about the amount of Polish migrant workers let alone the increase in immigration from muslim countries.

    • Que says:

      02:43pm | 26/07/11

      @Kika

      It’s just the same in Sweden.

    • Malik says:

      02:50pm | 27/07/11

      I do not understand those who are against multiculturalism. My family come from Pakistan to Sweden to live. We have help the economy very much and only want to be left alone in our areas to live in peace. We should be allowed the right to self governance. Why should we not elect our own people to local government when you all do??

      I attended the Institute for Studies of Migration and Diversity in Malmö and was taught that change must happen for a more better peaceful world. Immigrants bring only positive change to a society. We help keep Sweden fresh and vibrant. Wage and salaries of existing citizens may fall with the lower earning expectations of new immigrants changing the job market but productivity gains benefit everyone and more than compensate for the loss.

      We need more immigration not less especially since many ethnic Swedes are choosing a childless life. If it wasn’t for the high birthrates from Sweden’s new citizens in areas like Rosengård where would population growth come from.

      Sweden will be a stronger nation when the Riksdag has a majority composed of the children of immigrants and my dearest wish is to see that happen in my lifetime. No country should belong to anyone. Countries like Sweden, Denmark and Norway have a moral duty to share their wealth and standard of living with anyone that wants to live there.

      All sympathies to Norway. Do not give up on your plans for social change, you are winning the good fight!

    • Malik says:

      02:50pm | 27/07/11

      I do not understand those who are against multiculturalism. My family come from Pakistan to Sweden to live. We have help the economy very much and only want to be left alone in our areas to live in peace. We should be allowed the right to self governance. Why should we not elect our own people to local government when you all do??

      I attended the Institute for Studies of Migration and Diversity in Malmö and was taught that change must happen for a more better peaceful world. Immigrants bring only positive change to a society. We help keep Sweden fresh and vibrant. Wage and salaries of existing citizens may fall with the lower earning expectations of new immigrants changing the job market but productivity gains benefit everyone and more than compensate for the loss.

      We need more immigration not less especially since many ethnic Swedes are choosing a childless life. If it wasn’t for the high birthrates from Sweden’s new citizens in areas like Rosengård where would population growth come from.

      Sweden will be a stronger nation when the Riksdag has a majority composed of the children of immigrants and my dearest wish is to see that happen in my lifetime. No country should belong to anyone. Countries like Sweden, Denmark and Norway have a moral duty to share their wealth and standard of living with anyone that wants to live there.

      All sympathies to Norway. Do not give up on your plans for social change, you are winning the good fight!

    • atthepub says:

      07:53am | 26/07/11

      So we need to reject the idea that multiculturalism is to blame, One hundred percent! Too often the wrong questions are asked and people get side tracked as to what the real issue is.
      The real issue is that we need to reject the idea that multiculturalism is to blame, anything else is feeding the separatism and exclusiveness which is feeding the hatred.

      Is called superiority complex people, thinking that we know best and others aren’t quite up to scratch. Delusions of grandeur is another one.

    • Drew(Darlinghurst) says:

      08:06am | 26/07/11

      That Right Wing Crazy Terrorist in Norway held JOHN HOWARD up as his pin up boy. Read his 1,500 word Manifesto.

      I rest my case.

      RIGHT WING RACISTS should be behind bars, its time to arrest John Howard

    • John says:

      08:41am | 26/07/11

      He also had links to the EDL and other odd type nationalist groups. Many state that Nationalism he was into is more like Neo-Conservatism blind hatred of Islam. Similar the mohammed photo saga and american culture. I personally think it was setup, he was plant or he an agent. EDL is Socialist form of Islamic Hatred, they are anti-Islamic immigration, but support multiculturalism. EDL is suspected of being Government run group. Their use of think is run propaganda againist islamic for the purpose of war propaganda. Like anti-fa is used against Nationalism groups in europe.

    • Max Redlands says:

      08:41am | 26/07/11

      “its time to arrest John Howard”

      Hilarious!

      I literally Laughed Out Loud.

    • Mark G says:

      08:44am | 26/07/11

      Yeah drew,

      Lets arrest everyone who doesn’t agree with our political opinions *sarcasm*. Sounds like totalitarianism to me.  Let’s just establish a socialist dictatorship like the old Soviet Union under Stalin. I’m sure that will work out well for everyone.

      Oh my god he like mentioned John Howard. That must mean that John Howard is part of the Fascist conspiracy man. GET A LIFE!!!!

    • John the Great is great says:

      09:55am | 26/07/11

      That’s awesome if he did. Wow Howard gets some international attention and mentioned along with likes of Charles Martel and El Cid. We will have to start calling him “John the Great the saviour of Christian Civilisation”!

      That just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. hehe.

      As an aside if too early for you to be smoking things Drew and your mum wants you to put the bins out.

    • Chris L says:

      09:20pm | 26/07/11

      MarK, I think you may have taken Drew’s comment a little too seriously.

    • Sceptic says:

      06:30am | 27/07/11

      @Chris L

      MarK manifests his internal conflict with abuse on the internet.

    • Mark G says:

      08:22am | 26/07/11

      Tory,

      What you are referring to actually has an evolutionary title. Its called pack mentality. We humans, being predators, tend to prefer the comfort of packs. This varies from the more herbivorous herd mentality. The key differences between a pack and a herd are interesting in the present modern context. Pack animals form small groups and stake out territories. They see any other entry into that territory (by a similar species) as a threat. Packs have a mentality of competing for available resources and develop an us vs. them attitude to other packs. Herds on the other hand tend to be more unified because of the idea of ‘safety in numbers’. When two herds find each other they will not normally attack but rather will combine into one larger herd. Thus the large migrations that you see in places like Africa were thousands of herd animals gather and migrate. 

      The idea of a pack and a herd is an extremely deep seated evolutionary trait that most people don’t even acknowledge. Our pack mentality is still very strong in modern society. We humans may have advanced cognitive skills but we are still driven by old evolutionary traits. There are thousands of groups that we can identify with many of which you listed in you article. The idea of pack mentality is one of those things that identifies that religious or cultural conflict is not really about the religions involved or the diversity of cultures. Its about two pack staking out their territory and defending it from the other pack. In these conflicts people have develop the pack oriented ‘us vs them’ mentality. The stronger the mentality and the larger the perceived invasion of territory, the more likely it is to come to blows. Imagine what the world would be like if Humans evolved from a herd animal? Interesting concept isn’t it.

    • melle says:

      08:49am | 26/07/11

      @Mark G.  “if humans evolved from a herd animal”.

      Well, there’s a reason humans didn’t -  but you left that out of your lengthy comment.

    • persephone says:

      10:01am | 26/07/11

      MarkG

      Lumping all social structures in the Animal Kingdom into herds or packs isn’t valid.

      There’s a whole range of organisational models out there.

      ‘Tribes’ is probably the best descriptor of how most of our nearest relatives ’ in the wild’ and, indeed, several of our oldest cultures, live.

      Indeed, most indigeneous cultures stress cooperation over competition, because they recognise that the group is more important than the individual.

      You start from the assumption that human beings are predators. They’re not, and never were. Hunting was only one aspect of tribal life, and provided only about 30% of the food supply. We depended far more on the gathering rather than the hunting, yet are far more likely to refer to ourselves as hunters than gatherers.

      We were gatherers before we were hunters.

      We’re cooperative rather than competitive; the impulse is to share, not to keep.

      It’s this drive for co operation which creates the ‘pack mentality’ you refer to, not competition with other tribes. Idenfitification with the tribe is necessary for its cohesion, and ‘the other’ is seen as threatening this.

    • Bev says:

      10:48am | 26/07/11

      persephone says:10:01am | 26/07/11
      Indeed, most indigeneous cultures stress cooperation over competition, because they recognise that the group is more important than the individual.

      Which has a down side in that these cultures don’t advance as individulality is suppressed resulting in little advance in thousands of years.  After all it is individuals who invent wheels.

    • Mark G says:

      12:36pm | 26/07/11

      Melle,

      Your right I didn’t get into that because my comment is already long enough. There are many reasons humans (or at least the most intelligent species) didn’t but its interesting to imagine if a herd animal did become a dominant species. although I admit unlikely.

      Persephone,

      You rewriting evolution to the vegetarian argument. We are omnivorous which makes us an adapted predator. We evolved from carnivores to become omnivores.

      What about us doesn’t suggest a predator. Our eyes close together to produce binocular vision. Our teeth that has meat oriented pincers and incisors. The fact they we have a single stomach unlike most herbivores. The fact that most of our close primate cousins are omnivorous predators. Evolutionarily it is easy for a carnivore to adapt to eating plant matter. Its already around them in abundance. It is extremely rare that a herbivore would start killing other animals to become a omnivore. 

      You talk about ‘Tribal Life’. I am not going to dispute your 30% hunting diet although I’m not sure where you got that from. It sounds about right though. The problem is that the time period (ie in tribes) you are talking about is when we had already evolved into omnivorous hunter gatherers. Either way, how does this prove we were gatherers first??? You just said we did both. That makes us an omnivorous predator and still a pack animal.

    • persephone says:

      02:07pm | 26/07/11

      Bev

      wasn’t making any comment about the relative worthiness of one society compared to another, but about our evolutionary roots.

      MarkG

      I’m not a vegetarian, and I’m not making a vegetarian argument.

      This happens to be one of my true areas of expertise!!

      Our eyes are close together because we’re descended from tree dwelling insect eaters, who later added fruit to their diet as well.

      We were omnivores from pretty much the start, just as chimpanzees and gorillas are…and neither chimpanzees or gorillas are predators, although they do do a little hunting.

      You seem to be arguing that we’re not a herbivore, therefore we must be a carnivore. As I’ve said about your ‘herd/pack’ dichotomy, that’s just too simplistic.
      I’m happy to agree that we’re omnivorous, but that wasn’t what you were saying to start with, and omnivores are (obviously) different from herbivores and carnivores, and thus have different social structures as well.

    • Mark G says:

      03:28pm | 26/07/11

      Persephone,

      ‘Our eyes are close together because we’re descended from tree dwelling insect eaters, who later added fruit to their diet as well.’

      Doesn’t that by definition define a carnivour that has evolved into a omnivore and of course a predator? Just because we are not talking about red meat doesn’t make its not carnivourous.
      Persephone,

      ‘Our eyes are close together because we’re descended from tree dwelling insect eaters, who later added fruit to their diet as well.’

      Doesn’t that by definition define a carnivore that has evolved into a omnivore and of course a predator? Just because we are not talking about red meat doesn’t make its not carnivorous.

      ‘and neither chimpanzees or gorillas are predators, although they do do a little hunting.’

      A little hunting? That still defines a predator. Maybe not one that relies on it anymore but still a predator.

      I wasn’t convinced that you were arguing from a vegetarian point of view and in fact I am glad you are not. No offense intended. I have heard some ridiculous arguments from fanatical vegetarians about human evolution. I would also agree that some of the beef industries arguments about humans coming down from the trees for red meat is just as ludicrous.

      The idea of Herd/pack is nothing but a model for carnivore / omnivore / herbivore behavioural patterns. I agree that for the most part it is too simple to be specific about a particular species but the overall pattern of behaviour is relatively consistent. The idea that you are raising about ‘Tribe’ mentality is simply ‘Pack’ mentality with some human cognitive variables. Just because we have a pack mentality doesn’t mean we have to behave like dogs but our emotions and behaviour still hold many primitive evolutionary traits. 

      For the most part I think we are arguing the same thing just in a different way.

    • Jay Santos says:

      08:25am | 26/07/11

      Are not the celebrations of Cadel Evans winning the Tour de France for Australia an overt display of tribalism?

      You can’t have it both ways.

      How many Muslims were killed in Norway?...seems kind of odd seeing as they were the alleged target yet have a zero body count.

      Either Breivik is stupid or the Western media tilt at windmills and pray for things that aren’t there.

      This awww shucks, gee willikers “why can’t we just all get along” bolierplate is disingenuous.

      Too bad Punch has chosen to ignore the impending human rights crisis in the wake of our ‘pact’ with Malaysia.

      Maybe a little too tribal and confronting?

      Marching pregnant woman from one ‘tribe’ across the tarmac into a RAAF Hercules at gunpoint for a one way trip to Kuala Lumpur would be considered newsworthy elsewhere.

      Why not here?

    • Jay Santos says:

      08:26am | 26/07/11

      Your comment:Are not the celebrations of Cadel Evans winning the Tour de France for Australia an overt display of tribalism?

      You can’t have it both ways.

      How many Muslims were killed in Norway?...seems kind of odd seeing as they were the alleged target yet have a zero body count.

      Either Breivik is stupid or the Western media tilt at windmills and pray for things that aren’t there.

      This awww shucks, gee willikers “why can’t we just all get along” bolierplate is disingenuous.

      Too bad Punch has chosen to ignore the impending human rights crisis in the wake of our ‘pact’ with Malaysia.

      Maybe a little too tribal and confronting?

      Marching pregnant woman from one ‘tribe’ across the tarmac into a RAAF Hercules at gunpoint for a one way trip to Kuala Lumpur would be considered newsworthy elsewhere.

      Why not here?

    • John says:

      08:33am | 26/07/11

      Nationalism/Conservatism the new Al-Qaeda, the new terrorists and Christianity the NEW wicked religion from the dark ages.

      I’ve been reading there more cells! The elite have placed back up plans??, how many assaults and charges do they need to get europe to turn to the left and destroy the nationalist conservatism? Who created it? CIA, MI5? Foreign Intelligence agency’s? What is this operation “Destroy Christian Nationalism in europe”? Calculating these people are.

    • John says:

      08:49am | 26/07/11

      I’m still not surprised that people have not connected the dots. It’s 2011 and the french election is on 2012, Front national is predicted to win. They have stated they will pull out of EU, re introduced the Frank, cut ties with the international bankers and stop immigration. This will cause the EU to collapse, Germany will leave the euro and the entire socialist dream will collapse. Since the elite don’t want this to happen, since they spend a lot of work trying to create it, they are now finding and using ways to discredit the rising nationalist movements. This terror attack i suspect is there dirty work, if another one comes, it’s most likely them. They can’t stand democracy or the will of the european people. So they find ways to manipulate people.

    • Phil says:

      09:13am | 26/07/11

      “These are the same type of people that murdered 3000 Americans on 9/11 with pre-planted explosives, so they could invade Afghanistan and iraq,[sic]”

      I’m sorry, but that is just disrespectful to the 3000 people who died on that day, including Australian’s, and is the sort of rubbish that should be moderated.

    • Phil (The other Phil) says:

      09:55am | 26/07/11

      @Hammond,
      Finally someone gets it.
      What he has done was just to get the platform and people willing to listen to everything he has to say.
      From there you can deliver a message.

    • Anna C says:

      09:04am | 26/07/11

      “So we need to reject the idea that multiculturalism is to blame, and concentrate on these fringe dwelling extremists and how we stop them.”

      Tory, not everyone who is concerned about Islamic immigration is necessarily anti multiculturalism. Most post WW2 migrants to Australia have contributed greatly to our county’s success whether it be the Italians, Greeks, Maltese etc who migrated in the 50’s/60’s, the Vietnamese in the 1970’s and the Chinese in the 1990’s.

      My problem is with the Muslim immigrants who have arrived in this country since the 1980’s and do not want to contribute positively to our society nor fit into our way of life. These are the people who insist on: wearing the burqa; practicisng polygamy; rorting our welfare system; demanding the introduction of Sharia Law; demanding their own banking system financed by the Government; demanding the reintroducing female circumcision etc etc.

      I have no problem with Muslims who migrate here and follow our laws, work, pay their taxes and leave their barbaric and backward religious practices at the door. My problem is with the ones who want to turn Australia into a Muslim state.  There is nothing wrong with wanting to protect what’s yours.

    • Tell It Like It Is says:

      11:48am | 26/07/11

      I agree with Anna C.  It is insulting - and so repetitive and just plain wrong - to reduce everyone who has concerns about the Muslims overtaking western civilisation as anti-multicultural. There is multiculturalism which has until recently worked well in western democracies where there is give and take on both sides. What this man perpetrated in Norway is so evil it defies words and description. However, until alleged democracies like we have here in Australia engage citizens/voters and start listening to them seriously then this may occur again and again, even here in Oz. I suppose every country monitors the internet for extremists. Now they have to widen their visual field to include the extreme right as well. Extremists are always dangerous. But while governments are busy monitoring the w.w.w.  they should be exploiting the internet to connect better and more with voters. It’s just plain stupid for Ms Gillard to be wearing out shoe leather travelling around attempting to sell something like her carbon tax. Why not use the internet and do her own polls about crucial issues instead of blaming the media for being biased?! Immigration policies are clearly a very, very big concern and voters should not be restricted to a poll only every three years at elections. Governments need to pay attention to what people want for their own countries and not just while current politicians are in office.  As far as specific biases are concerned, why wouldn’t people be concerned about a huge influx of Muslims. They allow multiple wives and hyper-reproduce, with seemingly no regard for sustainability issues. And never mind the unashamedly expressed grand plan to take over by stealth. We should have a policy as in China whereby one child only is provided support by the government. After that, it’s up to the parent.  Many couples would like to have more children but cannot afford them. Why should taxpayers’ money go to support the children of others, especially if those others view you as a lesser person or infidel. Who wouldn’t take offense to that?

    • HappyCynic says:

      11:50am | 26/07/11

      You just dislike change.

      Too bad the world will change with or without you.  Nothing you can do to prevent it, so why bother?  Just eat, drink, screw and enjoy life.  No one can ever stop you from doing these things and nothing else matters anyway.

    • RB says:

      02:11pm | 26/07/11

      I agree Anna C 100%.Well said.Many people are not against multuculturism entirely but are tired of watching their cultures disrespected, changed & the violence & trouble that seems to be the norm with muslim immigration.This is happening all over the world.It is more than coincidence.But useless governments the world over wont deal with this issue for fear of being labeled racist.

    • OzEmale says:

      11:00am | 27/07/11

      How about Jewish immigrants? They practice polygamy, have their own banking system, follow Talmudic law on some issues, practice circumcision, and (behind closed doors) talk about leading the world and how the rest of humanity must serve them because they are the superior race.

      Perhaps you aren’t criticizing them because you are afraid to be labeled anti-semitic? (Which is somewhat ironic because Muslims and Jews are both Semitic)

    • Michael says:

      09:10am | 26/07/11

      This whole affair could be called a feedback loop.

    • John of St Leonards says:

      09:13am | 26/07/11

      I’m surprised to read that moslem extremists are closet multi culturalists.  I’ve hitherto been mistaken in my belief that they wanted to obliterate all competing cultures.

    • TChong says:

      09:30am | 26/07/11

      In that case John, those muslim extremists appear no different to Bevring , his fellow christian fascist terrorists, and this murderous filths surprisingly large cheer / apologists squad.

    • Anna C says:

      09:47am | 26/07/11

      Spot on. Anyone who denies this i.e. the looney left is extremely niave.

    • James1 says:

      11:01am | 26/07/11

      Muslim extremists are not multiculturalists at all.  Average moderate Muslims sometimes are.

      There - I sorted that little problem for you.

      And Anna, before you start in, not hating all Muslims does not make one part of the loony left.  In my case in particular, my Liberal Party membership that I took out two weeks ago is evidence that I am not of the loony left.  It just happens that I take people as I find them, and try my best not to hate people on the basis of their religion, or lack thereof, as well as holding conservative views.

    • James says:

      09:17am | 26/07/11

      The aweful truth is we aren’t fundamentally different from the fur draped cavemen in the picture, we are geared to stick to a tribe and spear the bejesus out of anyone from another tribe who we perceive as a threat.

      Social cohesion takes ever so much effort to develop but can break down very quickly, platitudes won’t keep society together only concious effort will and I’m afraid that most people in competitive societies cannot be stuffed.

    • Kika says:

      11:31am | 26/07/11

      They aren’t cavemen. They are Neanderthals. From the BBC documentary “Walking with our Ancestors”. Cavemen were the Cro Magnons.

    • James says:

      10:39am | 27/07/11

      Touche but you see the point I am making.

    • Stephy says:

      09:27am | 26/07/11

      Tory, enough with the bashing on the Christians. There is NO motive on the face of this earth (short of Muslim virgins) that would drive anyone to shoot so many innocent people*. The whole world is repulsed - Christians as much as anyone. There is nothing that religiously could have motivated him to do it. Nothing he can pin on a Bible verse. As a Christian I reject the notion he’s one as well and I’m not the first. We wouldn’t associate with him or anyone who thinks or acts like him.

      Isn’t that Knights Templar sh*t found in the Da Vinci Code or something? (Which, by the way, is as far from Christian as they come)

      *Wait, I forgot war.

    • Tory Shepherd

      Tory Shepherd says:

      12:20pm | 26/07/11

      Stephy, I don’t think this was Christian bashing at all. I used the word once in a straightforward descriptive sense.

    • Michael Creighton says:

      09:36am | 26/07/11

      So Anders Behring Breivik has justified his massacre of young “lefties” in Norway on the grounds that he was protecting Europe from an Islamic takeover and “cultural Marxism”? Right.  With shock jocks, the tabloids press and self-serving politicians in Australia stirring up fear and hatred over “boat people” plus Tony Abbott referring to action on climate change as “environmentalism masquerading as Socialism” how long is it before Australia produces its own home-grown right-wing nutter with a gun?

    • Chad C Mulligan says:

      09:53am | 26/07/11

      Soon, I’d say.  And when that happens I’ve got a tenner says that he, ( and it will be a he ), will have the collected works of Andrew Bolt on his bookshelf.

    • Anna C says:

      10:05am | 26/07/11

      “...how long is it before Australia produces its own home-grown right-wing nutter with a gun?”

      Gee Michael Creighton, sounds to me like your your kind of hoping that it does happens here. Just shameful. Would that make you feel more smug in your beliefs?

      Well luckily for our sakes the attrocity that occured in Norway will not happen here. People who are against the Carbon Tax and boat people are not raving nutters as you like to think. They are everyday citizens who intend on taking political action via the ballet box where it belongs; and not by violent means. It is insulting to suggest otherwise.

    • RyaN says:

      10:22am | 26/07/11

      @Michael Creighton: and there you have it, the steely cold heartlessness of the left wing dropkicks, the bodies not even cold yet and he is using the opportunity to spread his left wing hatred.

      Abhorrent!

    • Michael Creighton says:

      11:02am | 26/07/11

      @Anna C.  The “ballet box” ?  I think you probably meant “ballot box”?  It would be pleasing if you learnt to spell before you voted. I stick with my point that irrational and emotional viewpoints can lead to a toxic and potentially dangerous political climate.  Informed, logical debate is a better way forward.

    • Anna C says:

      11:41am | 26/07/11

      “@Anna C.  The “ballet box” ?  I think you probably meant “ballot box”?  It would be pleasing if you learnt to spell before you voted. I stick with my point that irrational and emotional viewpoints can lead to a toxic and potentially dangerous political climate.  Informed, logical debate is a better way forward.”

      Michael Creighton, like you’ve never done a typo? Oh silly me I forgot your guys are always right and perfect aren’t you?

    • KLH says:

      12:09pm | 26/07/11

      @ Anna C

      Writing “ballet” instead of “ballot” is not a typo it’s a spelling error.

      The “e” is nowhere near the “o” on the keyboard.

    • Michael Creighton says:

      12:11pm | 26/07/11

      Anna, your posting was actually full of spelling errors and grammatical errors.  I referred only to the one that I found most entertaining.  Your lame excuse of a “typo” is as nonsensical as your politics.  Learn to spell, learn grammar, learn to express yourself in correct English and then maybe I will listen to your opinions.  But probably not, my dear, probably not.  I suspect your views would still remain as misguided as ever, influenced by the banal toxicities of Andrew Bolt, Alan Jones and Tony Abbott.

    • josh says:

      01:40pm | 26/07/11

      Not long at all Michael, not long at all (the sooner the better).

    • Anna C says:

      01:44pm | 26/07/11

      “@ Anna C ... writing “ballet” instead of “ballot” is not a typo it’s a spelling error. The “e” is nowhere near the “o” on the keyboard.”

      KLH, stop being so damn pedantic. Whether typo or spelling error; nobody cares? What are you the Grammar Police? How about focusing on my argument instead of nitpicking on trivialities.

    • Michael Creighton says:

      02:00pm | 26/07/11

      @josh 1.40 “the sooner the better”?  I hope you are you are not suggesting that this is a desirable event?

    • Anna C says:

      02:18pm | 26/07/11

      Gee Michael Creighton, going by your pedantic ramblings I must be really getting under your skin. Sounds to me like we should all be afraid of people like you i.e. grammar nazis who have a tendancy to explode at the sight of a typo or spelling error. Your a real ticking time bomb aren’t you?

    • Rose says:

      04:08pm | 26/07/11

      AnnaC what is your argument? Are you trying to say that this is impossible here? If you are you are a fool. Just reading blog responses to the carbon tax and Julia Gillard in general are enough to prove that there is little balance in many people’s opinions. The whole tone of those arguments, which are led by key ‘shock jocks’ (Jones, Ackerman, Bolt etc) are devoid of reasonable debate and are deliberately designed to incite hatred and intolerance. Abbott and Gillard should be standing up and condemning the way the ‘debate’ is being conducted but instead they have allowed themselves to be swept up into it as active participants. The potential for some nutjob to take it one step further and resort to violence has never been stronger than it is now, and that is far more terrifying than any possible government policy!

    • sylvie says:

      04:11pm | 26/07/11

      Anna C, you’re doing a fantastic job, standing your ground there.  Dig in.

      Michael C. is easily entertained.  Supercilious leftie.

    • Michael Creighton says:

      04:57pm | 26/07/11

      Yes Anna C you are correct.  You irritate the hell out of me.  Not because of your obvious lack of an education, nor your inability to use English correctly,  which is quite charming and entertaining in a childish way,  but because of your blinding stupidity which is neither charming nor entertaining.  It is just plain dumb.  Now I really need to go and meet up with some literate friends for a coffee at our favourite cafe. But I would guess that you have an issue with good coffee as well as educated and informed conversation?

    • Kate says:

      06:13pm | 26/07/11

      Anna C, Michael Creighton, I think this conversation is a perfect example of how opposing opinions, whether it is political, cultural or whether blue is blue, can fracture into further arguments and drag other topics in with it.

      This discussion collapsed into personal blows.

      But getting angry and wound up over Grammar demonstrates how opponents gain momentum in their opposition to one another and it carries on in other areas.

      I think perhaps, like in this conversation, right-wing, left-wing, multiculturalism, religion and culture all get used as ammunition to fuel one’s own personal beliefs in argument to opposition. This can fracture into hatred, and how to stop that, no one quite has the answer.

    • Michael Creighton says:

      06:36pm | 26/07/11

      Kate, how right you are.  We have seen in this set of exchanges exactly how the process becomes a self reinforcing feedback loop.  This is exactly why our politicians and media need to be mindful of the divisions they engender.  I am thrilled that the point was illustrated so well in this discussion.  On that basis I count the afternoon as a successful experiment in sociology.

    • John the Zombie says:

      09:37am | 26/07/11

      So those of the left just because of a small group of Christian we will tarnish the entire group with the same brush even though you tell us just because of a small group of muslims we should not tarnish all muslims with the same brush.

      Bit one sided here right.

    • James1 says:

      12:27pm | 26/07/11

      Its rubbish that this is about religion.  It is about politics.  Its always about politics.

    • fml says:

      12:44pm | 26/07/11

      I hope that doesnt happen.

      I also think there it is less likely of happening than when it occur with muslims. Being a predominantly christian country we are able to observe the good influence they produce everyday. It is because we do not have everyday contact with muslims that there is still that stigma.

      These attitudes are representative of people who largely interact with muslims everyday, as opposed to living next to some and not talking, or seeing them down the aisle of the local shops.

    • John the Zombie says:

      01:55pm | 26/07/11

      fml I have known a large amount of muslims in my time. My family have been friends with many of them over the years to the point were I have grown up with them. Overtime I have seen then groups change and become more hardline to the point were we are no longer able to see the ppl we knew before. Many of them changed and moved to areas were large muslim population live and started taking the lines of the current group calling on Sharia Law and anti Aus this and that.

      Also fml alot of my knowledge also comes from seeing what is happening in the UK and Europe. You dont even know how bad it is. Did you know that groups of muslims are offering rewards for muslims to convert non muslim girls. Hindu and Sikh boys are been targeted by muslims at university to the point were they are trying to get rid of them from Uni. Also attacks are on the rise of sikh boys who keep thier hair. In these circumstances the boys have been dragged and had thier hairs cut. After the mulsim boys say no he did it himself.  This another case that will shock you. In the UK muslim boys are changing thier names by deed poll to sikh boys names and growing beards and wearing the kara (steel bangle) to target Sikh girls to covert to Islam.

      If you want I can provide links.

      Why is it not just chrisitan but hindu, sikh and other religions are worried about muslims?

    • fml says:

      02:19pm | 26/07/11

      John,

      I do know the situation in the UK, i lived there for a year, and its definitely not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Funnily enough the majority of the UK love multiculturalism, anytime there was any instance of racism, it was instantly denounced by the media. e.g. shilpa in the big brother house and supported by many commentators.
      Its only the small minority that have a huge problem with it.

    • josh says:

      02:51pm | 26/07/11

      fml, tens of thousands of UK people recently moved to Australia to get away from it will disagree with you.

    • fml says:

      03:19pm | 26/07/11

      as opposed to the millions that are still there?

    • RyaN says:

      09:48am | 26/07/11

      Its not about tribalism, this explains it all <warning expletive language>
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RNgaxKfyZU

      The right wing are the ones beginning with a D.
      The left wing are the ones beginning with a P.
      This Anders fellow is the one beginning with an A.

      Yes this is just that simple!

    • Sony B Goode says:

      09:50am | 26/07/11

      The moral outrage of the leftist here is quite bizarre considering the lefts near monopoly on political violence in modern history. Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, Castro, Che Guevara. Baader Meinhof, Shining Path, FARC, Red Brigade and countless other terrorist organisations working for the left and spreading its message by terror and violence. Millions have been assassinated or killed for the lefts cause of material egalitarianism.

      No one on the left has any credibility to claim any moral high ground considering the shoulders of evil that their world view stands upon and the sheer mountain of corpses that has been created in the name of material equality.

      Leftists will attempt to distance themselves from the carnage by claiming some humanitarian sugar coated shield which is as fake as Al Qeada hiding in mosques and schools.  Of course today we are still subjected to the Fabianistic Gillardian approach of death by a thousand cuts and the endless leftist assault on prosperity.

      Is multiculturalism at fault? Absolutely. Multiculturalism wrongly assumes that there is moral equivalence between cultures and mutual respect and tolerance, that has been proved 100% wrong in the case of islam. One only has to look at the unabrogated koran to see the Islamic message in its glory. There is no message of love thy neighbour in islam, unless you are male muslim, just global domination by any means.

    • Nice one says:

      12:39pm | 26/07/11

      This is the best, most well informed comment in this blog. Well done, Sony B.

    • fml says:

      12:53pm | 26/07/11

      Sonny B, Goodentachy.

      Multiculturalism at fault? No. What is at fault is human nature. the human need to belong to a group and the humans fear of change. Multiculturalism is an attempt to expand that group.

      I have no idea how this post relates to what has just occured, and just seems like a poor attempt to relate Muslims, Multiculturalists and Marxists to normal everyday people. Ha, i get it, you just hate the letter ‘M’. Will your next post be on Milkshakes? Mothers? Mingers? tomorrow are you going to move onto the Word ‘N’, or would that be too close to home?

    • FrankR says:

      01:46pm | 26/07/11

      Sony B Goode

      Well said.. It’s rarely mentionted that that hero of the left Josef Stalin murdered more people than hilter. I see T shirts exhalting Che Guevara, but how many people did he torture and kill??
      If we are now blaming this tragedy in Norway on some one who the apologists refer to as Christian fundamentalist, maybe we should take a score check
      Christian fundamentalist,s 92, Muslim fundamentalist,s about 1 million. Give a big cheer for your side

    • James1 says:

      02:18pm | 26/07/11

      “Multiculturalism wrongly assumes that there is moral equivalence between cultures and mutual respect and tolerance”

      This man’s actions have made it abundantly clear that elements on both sides are morally inferior.  At least we can agree on that.

    • james says:

      03:08pm | 26/07/11

      Any groups missing from your list there Sony? Maybe the nazis, neo-nazis, ustase, Japan’s government during the 1930’s and WW2, the KKK, Franco, Pinochet, Argentinian military Junta, Timothy Mcveigh, Mobutu, Suharto ect ect? No one had a near monopoly on political violence in recent history.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      12:47pm | 27/07/11

      Nice try James but no banana. Nazies were socialists. They hated capitalism, they were nationalist racists socialists, but they were opposed to international socialism, prefering the purity of the arian race. 

      Nationalism by itself doesn’t make one right wing.


      I challenge any lefties here to explain what policies nazies have in common with conservatives, other than wishful thinking.

      Secondly if you count up the bodies from socialist massacres you will find what you call the right is several orders of magnitude behind, leading one to conclude that the lefts cause of material equality is a near political monopoly on violence.

    • Johnny atheos says:

      09:56am | 26/07/11

      All he has proved is right wing conservative Christians have much more in common with the average Islamist. The fact he was anti- multiculturalism does not make multiculturalism a good policy or popular in fact this appalling act will only give multiculturalists and cultural relativists the opportunity close down further debate.

    • fml says:

      01:01pm | 26/07/11

      Well really the right, who quite often ask moderate muslims to distance themselves from the extremists, must now have to justify how their opinion is conservative when compared to how breivik thinks.

      The issue of multiculturalism is difficult, the right have an affront to change and want an homogenous society. This is now impossible, with out committing some act of inhumanity, what would be a feasible action?

    • Johnny atheos says:

      04:58pm | 26/07/11

      fml@ To me the great benefit that our society has had is the philosophical capital inherited to us by the Western enlightenment. This has been of benefit to all human beings regardless of their race or culture or religion. The result after much human cost, political upheaval and the deconstruction of religious and cultural scared cows over hundred of years, was Secular Society based on universal human rights. The dividend was cohesive societies even though they were diverse religiously and culturally.

      I think Multiculturalism has replaced Secular Society and now made for us is a new scared cow. This takes the form of non-criticism, non-judgment and that tolerance is enduring the detestable and tolerance as an unconditional appreciation of diversity. The concept of universal human rights can’t operate in this kind of relativistic construction.

      Self-seeking politian’s have made a mess of this social engineering project by forcing multiculturalism on the people who never understood or accepted it in the same way as Secular Society. When the people see the outcomes have been poor and confused there is justifiable resentment. However I hope that this can be fixed if possible through open robust debate (free speech) and the ballot box not through the barrel of gun.

    • Q says:

      10:15am | 26/07/11

      We are label loving.  We want to label everything and everyone so that we know how to treat them ie friend or foe.  We will discriminate based on any perceived difference - gender, colour, race, religion, sexual preference, nationality, political leanings, the list is endless.  We are motivated by two things - fear or love.  If you are motivated by fear you will judge all perceived differences out of this and you will act accordingly.  The same for love.
      It doesn’t matter what label you are given or give yourself if you act out of fear you will eventually destroy yourself.
      Perception is everything.  I may perceive you as being different but if I treat you the same the difference is negated.  If I treat you as different then either you or I will feel inferior and will then begin to act out of fear.
      Choose love.

    • Anna C says:

      11:30am | 26/07/11

      According to today’s Sydney Morning Herald’s news website, journalist Peter Hartcher reports that “Europol this year reported that there were no right-wing terrorist attacks in Europe last year. There were, however, 45 left-wing and anarchist attacks and 160 separatist attacks.”

      Gee what a suprise that there were 45 left -wing and anarchist attacks last year in Europe and no right wing terrorist attacks. So much for the looney left pretending that they are all peace loving people.

    • Get Real says:

      12:45pm | 26/07/11

      Nice point!

      It’s laughable to see the Left Wing Loonies suddenly comparing right wing Christians to Radical Islam because of a single isolated attack perpetrated by a extreme right wing so-called Christian. This has no comparrison to the deadly attacks perpetrated by Islamic radicals almost every single day of the year for the past 20 years.

    • fml says:

      01:02pm | 26/07/11

      Really? i heard it was right wing attacks.

      I prefer chicken wings myself.

    • Kika says:

      11:35am | 26/07/11

      I agree with Tory. Tribalism is alive and well in modern society, it’s just we could all be part of a hundred different ones at the same time these days. Check out tribalism in a Carlton vs Collingwood match, for example.

      I don’t know whether branching Anders Breivik into it is fair though. He isn’t a typical Norwegian, but clearly a psychopath. Whilst it’s true there is an underlying concern in Norway about their society changing from being 100% Norwegian Christians to a mix of everybody from everywhere (and the perils of that happening so far as social cohesion) you cannot link him with everyday Christian Norwegians. They are good people and enjoy the simple things in life just like us all. Except for their strange fascination with berry picking in summer, mackerel in a tube and brown cheese they are normal people like us.

    • Chad C Mulligan says:

      11:41am | 26/07/11

      Given that he name checks Windshuttle, Pell, and Howard, should we be adding them to the no fly list?

      Just asking.

    • The righteous one says:

      11:45am | 26/07/11

      anna c
      “My problem is with the Muslim immigrants who have arrived in this country since the 1980’s and do not want to contribute positively to our society nor fit into our way of life.”

      In the 50’s 60’‘s you and your ilk had the same statement/problem with italians, greeks, yugoslavians and every other new arrival even the poms copped it.  In the 70’s it was the vietnamese and other boat people from asia.

      Why is it the Aboriginals never made the same comment about the original boat people that landed on these shores.  After 50 years plus listening to this crap and witnessing that people who arrive here do ACTUALLY contribute to society as a whole you are becoming tiresome. Your point has been disproved with every ethnic group ever to arrive. 
      I am not of the right or the left ,so dont label me as a bleeding heart, but if you are going to make wild claims have the evidence to back it up.  Yes people take time to assimilate but they all do, so go and sell your bigotted religious/ racist crap somewhere else.  Make sure to acknowledge the boat people undoubtedly in your family closet first.

    • Anna C says:

      12:04pm | 26/07/11

      “Anna C ...In the 50’s 60’‘s you and your ilk had the same statement/problem with italians, greeks, yugoslavians and every other new arrival even the poms copped it.  In the 70’s it was the vietnamese and other boat people from asia.”

      The righteous, what exactly to you mean by me and my ilk? My own parents migrated here from Italy in the 1960’s and I was born here. My parents unlike some migrants contributed to this country no end by working all their lives, respecting our laws and immersing themselves in our society. As the daugher of migrants I naturally do not have any ill will towards migrants in general; that would be hypocritical of me. What I do protest is against Muslim extremists who do not respect our laws and freedoms and plan to turn Australia into a Muslim state; with your help and those of other like minded people.

    • James1 says:

      12:24pm | 26/07/11

      Plenty of Italian migrants engaged in organised crime - does that then mean that multiculturalism failed in the 50s and 60s?  Your brand of migrant had its bad apples too.  Growing up in Innisfail, I learned how to swear in Italian so I could understand the old men calling me names for being an Anglo (which I’m not, and I actually consider it an insult to be called Anglo, but that is another matter) - again, multiculturalism must have failed in Innisfail.

      Please note, I am also the child of migrants, and I am aware of the problems my race brought to this country in the early days.  What I don’t understand is why you assume any other migrant group is any different.

    • Anna C says:

      12:40pm | 26/07/11

      “Please note, I am also the child of migrants, and I am aware of the problems my race brought to this country in the early days.  What I don’t understand is why you assume any other migrant group is any different.”

      James, the difference between my parents and Muslim migrants/extremists is that my parents weren’t demanding their own set of laws i.e. Sharia Law. My parents were law abiding people who respected our freedoms and our way of life.  They were not intent on forcing their backward, Muslim ways on Australia by stealth. 

      “What I don’t understand is why you assume any other migrant group is any different.”

      James, why don’t you look around you and see the effects that widespread Muslim immigration has had on Europe, England etc. Surely you are not that niave?

    • James1 says:

      12:54pm | 26/07/11

      I understand those things, Anna, but I maintain that Australia is not Europe and that the situation is different here.  Surely you are not so naive as to believe that Australia is Britain or France? 

      Also, keep in mind that a minority of your parents’ contemporaries had nothing but contempt for Australia and its laws, just like a minority of every migrant group.  Again, why assume current ones are any different?

    • fml says:

      01:17pm | 26/07/11

      Anna,

      You think comparing your parents to muslim extremists is a valid argument?

      The problem is your definition of a muslim extremist, while i do not doubt that you can accept that there was crime originating from migrants in the 50’s and 60’s, i doubt you see the difference between normal everyday muslims, and muslim extremists. That is where the issue is. I know you despise muslims so much that you don’t want to see the difference. Nothing will make a difference to you.

    • fml says:

      01:28pm | 26/07/11

      Furthermore Anna,

      Muslim immigration started in australia back in 1975, There wasn’t as much anti-muslim, anti-multicultural fervor until John Howard came in power and created an Us Vs Them mentality. If you want to postulate a cause vs effect, we could say that muslim integration, and multiculturalism was working, until the nationalistic fervor was risen in all of us when the liberals were in power.

    • josh says:

      01:43pm | 26/07/11

      FML that’s because their numbers weren’t large enough to matter, as soon as they realised they had enough to segregate themselves they started with all this nonsense. It’s bad in 2011 so imagine how bad things will be in 2021.

    • Anna C says:

      02:02pm | 26/07/11

      “Muslim immigration started in australia back in 1975.”

      Actually fml, Muslim immigration started in Australia way back in the mid 1800’s - they were Afghan camel trekers.

      Funny, but during my history lessons I don’t recall them demanding separate laws for themselves i.e. Sharia Law like they do now; laws which actively discriminate against women.

    • fml says:

      02:25pm | 26/07/11

      Josh,

      What exactly is unconstitutional that they are doing? that isnt being done by anyone else? 2021?

      Anna,

      You are of Italian descent, you say they want to bring in sharia law? Well how long have catholics had the privilege, and catholic priests been able to keep what has been said in confessionals as private information? Wasnt that well before the muslims were here? Either they are not demanding anything that wasn’t already available to the catholics, or the catholics i.e. your parents should of been kicked out because not reporting a crime is unconstitutional.

    • RB says:

      02:48pm | 26/07/11

      James says “I maintain that Australia is not Europe & things are different here” (in regards to the failings of muslim immigration).My god, way to keep your head in the sand there James?Surely you are not that niave? Pick up a paper anyday in this country & you will read about the latest crime, disrespect or demand from this dispicable minority. The very fact that we need a middle eastern crime squad to deal with crimes of one minority says it all really.Australia is no different to Europe & its emerging problems.Muslim immigration & lack of integration is a huge issue to many in this country.Eventually it will come to a head in a big way i think.

    • Anna C says:

      02:56pm | 26/07/11

      Fml, firstly although Australia is a secular country it comes from Christian Judeo roots, which reflects the makeup of the majority of people here. Muslim beliefs, especially when they deal with women, are backward and alien to us.

      Secondly, giving into Muslims demands for the introduction of Sharia Law is a slippery slope towards the islamification of Australia.

      Thirdly, as an atheist I have no problem with Australia kicking out all religious people (my parents included). It would be my version of Utopia. Just kidding.

    • RB says:

      02:57pm | 26/07/11

      fml, so muslim immigration started way back in 1975(relly helped build the country hey?) You are wrong to think their wasnt emerging concerns about this minority before John Howard.I can remember people discussing the disrespect, demands & increased crime with Muslims more than twenty years ago.Things have only became worse because as Josh rightly says their numbers have increased.You call people with concerns racist.I say those people are judging muslims by their actions & attitudes in this country & they have every right to be concerned.

    • James1 says:

      03:27pm | 26/07/11

      “You call people with concerns racist.I say those people are judging muslims by their actions & attitudes in this country & they have every right to be concerned.”

      As I mentioned, I was mistreated by some Italians.  Should I then judge every Italian based on their behaviour?

    • fml says:

      03:29pm | 26/07/11

      RB,

      They have done as much as you phsyically have, Your ancestors contribution doesnt count. Despicable minority? Show me proof that muslim crime is higher per capita, and net, than white crime. I also did not call you racist. Jumping the gun there mate, typical of your ilk.

      Anna,

      I agree australia is a secular country, which means people are allowed to practice which religion they wish. Also you didnt answer my question about catholics, why are they allowed to commit crimes and then confess without being held accountable to the law, also how is this better to what the muslims are asking for which, has been stated many times would not supercede australian law, which the catholic practices most clearly has.
      “Muslim beliefs, especially when they deal with women, are backward and alien to us.” There are white people who are the same, Erick is a classic example. Misogyny is not exclusively muslim no matter how much you claim it to be.

      Its extremely obvious you do not care about equality against wrong doing, which i support, in laws which are irreligious and apply to all equally, you specifically specify muslims, for no other logical reason other than they are muslims. All people are capable of breaking the law, they all live by the same law, and all are punished equally by the law. If you think differently i would like you to find a judge and tell them to their face they give more lenient sentences to minority groups.

    • Art says:

      11:48am | 26/07/11

      Tribalism is everywhere.  Tribalism is the cause of the Famine in the Horn of Africa.  The leaders use it as a form of ethnic cleansing by denying the people the ability to grow and cultivate food and live stock by judicious use of force against those who produce the food.  And when the food inevitably comes it is directed by the ruling regime to the ruling ethnic group to support them first.  Some food inevitably trickles down to the group that has been selected by the leaders for ethnic cleansing but it is never enough.

    • Kika says:

      01:24pm | 26/07/11

      Excellent point. Plus poor agricultural practice also doesn’t help. If everyone is farming the same thing, on the same land again and again and again and the land is exhausted and some bug or insect comes, or the weather changes the whole livelihood of 99% of the people is destroyed in one foul swoop.

    • Ian1 says:

      02:01pm | 26/07/11

      Why feed your militia-controlled population when you can dislocate them from the land, and obtain free foreign aid?
      Especially when your extremist view is fundamentally to acquire the land for exploit, and also to reduce the local population. 

      Never ceases to amaze me how the West seem oblivious to the criminal motives of many foreign “governing” bodies.

      That being said, I am glad Rudd has committed significant funding to the humanitarian crisis.  If only the local “neighbourhood” were advanced enough to look after their own maybe we could have put those funds into the Hendra vaccine, or even new emergency hospital beds so people in Australia don’t die waiting for them.

      A powerful and great use of the dollar though.

    • Matt says:

      11:57am | 26/07/11

      I don’t understand how some people can get christianity so wrong..

      What ever happened to live and let live?

    • James1 says:

      12:39pm | 26/07/11

      Whether he is Christian or not is incidental.  Let’s not get distracted from the real issues, lest we have the Christians and anti-Christians running interference on the real issues, and debated which religion or set of beliefs has resulted in more deaths like we did yesterday.

    • Matt says:

      01:47pm | 26/07/11

      There are no real issues here.. Multiculturalism is not to blame.  Fear of immigration is no excuse for mass murder.  I find the whole ‘tribe’ idea a bit laughable.  This article seems to start talking about tribes and then centres on Breivik (surprise).  The world can’t even stop extremist groups let alone singles…  Some people are just crazy. Until these things actually happen, there’s no way to really know who they are.

      ‘There are no easy answers, but we need to stop wasting time asking the wrong questions.’  - And what questions? To whom?

    • David V. says:

      01:01pm | 26/07/11

      I think the issues are far more complex than a simple right/left black/white analysis that is being presented. An ultra-permissive society, enforced Political Correctness, and social and economic dislocation all make a toxic combination which is threatening the peace we take for granted in the West.

      Parenting, education and the mental health profession must be seriously looked at, if we don’t want to breed further generations of alienated and angry people.

    • fml says:

      02:13pm | 26/07/11

      Problem is though, you need a certain level of political correctness, or else people will be running around insulting everyone. Both sides want to be able to say and do what they want without any consequences, this will also result in violence.

      Also i do not think that a non-permissive, non politically correct society will result in less terrorism, i actually think it will result in higher rates of violence.

    • Bev says:

      06:21pm | 26/07/11

      fml says:02:13pm | 26/07/11

      Problem is though, you need a certain level of political correctness, or else people will be running around insulting everyone.

      Politeness is the word I would use. political correctness is the attempted control of people thought patterns by some people deeming what words others can use.  The opposite to free speach. 

      Also i do not think that a non-permissive, non politically correct society will result in less terrorism, i actually think it will result in higher rates of violence.

      No when everyday people are allowed to express themselves they sort out their differences (mostly) and both sides will out the extremists.

    • Chad C Mulligan says:

      01:11pm | 26/07/11

      So, can I now refer to John Howard as,’ Former Australian Prime Minister John Howard, who has links to the European Neo Nazi movement’?  Or, Cardinal Pell, Spiritual Guide to the Far Right’?

      What does the Murdoch press style guide say?

    • KH says:

      01:17pm | 26/07/11

      For everyone arguing about ‘left’ and ‘right’ extremism - IMHO…...the political spectrum is more like a circle than a line.  If you look the 6 o’clock position as centre, left is at 9 o’clock and right is at 3 o’clock.  At the 12 o’clock position are the two extremes, which generally manifest in much the same way - fascism (right) and communism (left) - have a good look at Stalin and Hitler - theoretically opposite, but the manifestation was pretty much the same, right down to secret police and concentration camps governed by a corrupt and insidious police force, with a ‘charismatic’ leader at the centre.  The biggest differences between left and right are really in the moderate area of both - the more extreme they become, the more similar they are.  Well, that is my 2c worth anyway.

    • Ian1 says:

      01:27pm | 26/07/11

      Welcome to one-mind.  Resistence is futile?
      Cannot condone the use of force or terror to achieve political goals.

      The history of our species is somewhat at loggerheads with my own stated view however.

    • David V. says:

      01:36pm | 26/07/11

      Where there is more diversity, there is more conflict, so why bring any more of it? Did the Balkans not teach you that lesson?

    • fml says:

      02:16pm | 26/07/11

      So what you are saying is that diversity brings about irrational, isolated episodes of conflict. What about the majority who do not have a problem with diversity and see that the actions of terrorism are the extreme minority?

    • RickY says:

      03:03pm | 26/07/11

      How do you know the majority have no problem with diversity fml?Do you speak for all them?If by diversity you mean multiculturalism than i wouldnt be so sure.

    • David V. says:

      03:17pm | 26/07/11

      The Balkans, Caucasus and Baltic regions aren’t exactly harmonious, East Asian nations at all like each other, and do I have to go on?

    • fml says:

      03:34pm | 26/07/11

      RickY,

      Because 20 people on a blog doesnt make a majority, also if there were a majority to your cause, wouldnt you be elected into government and the laws changed? Thats why there never has been a majority against diversity.

      Your logic is, we are in the majority, but we dont feel strongly enough to vote in a government that will change the laws, but we want the laws changed. We just want to complain about it on a blog.

    • Michael Creighton says:

      01:43pm | 26/07/11

      Further to fml 1:28 pm ... let us not ever forget that John Howard’s “strong border protection policies” made him a hero to the right-wing Christian conservative nut-job “crusader” who took it upon himself to massacre innocent people in the name of protecting Europe.  It appears that Howard’s extreme and emotive language has made him an icon for people like this.  Not good.

    • David V. says:

      01:52pm | 26/07/11

      I can think of many things “diversity” has brought to the UK too, which are un-British, and not generally practised by British people:
      - domestic violence
      - child abuse
      - rape
      - drug addiction
      - welfare dependency
      - diseases

      So tell me was it worth it? Do you ever see an English guy hurting his wife or girlfriend? I see plenty of Arab and Hispanic men do so.

    • Anna C says:

      02:26pm | 26/07/11

      “So tell me was it worth it? Do you ever see an English guy hurting his wife or girlfriend? I see plenty of Arab and Hispanic men do so.”

      David V, are you being sarcastic cause not even I believe this statement and I’m supposed to be the right wing nutter here (according to looney lefties)?

    • David V. says:

      03:01pm | 26/07/11

      Because, Anna, statistics and experience are on my side. And you don’t see English celebrities, footballers, etc in court on domestic violence charges do you?

    • ausspud says:

      01:57pm | 26/07/11

      Multiculturalism has been an absolute failure in this and any country,why do we continue to delude ourselves by thinking it will work here.
      So why do we continue to bring in Asians,Middle easterners and pacific islanders where all they do is breed and start their own little country.
      And it seems the punch has an article every 5min trying to defend it every time it fails.

    • fml says:

      02:59pm | 26/07/11

      Because they work harder than australians and do they jobs we dont want to do.

    • David V. says:

      05:53pm | 26/07/11

      They don’t work harder than Australians. They don’t have the intelligence or work ethic to do so, and like immigrants in Europe and North America, they become a parasitic drain on our tax dollars.

    • Soames says:

      02:25pm | 26/07/11

      Look, there’s nothing wrong with tribalism, for instance, Terra Australis, the hitherto un-named land already occupied by the people of Australia,  the foremost aboriginal tribe, had tribal laws since the dawn of their existence upon this land. The occupation of this continent by foreign invaders, the British expedition, under Captain Cook, commissioned by King George III, which resulted in deaths, led only to a continuing modern and not yet settled faux legal position. After all this time, the discrimination of deaths in custody , and not yet settled disputes, of which the aboriginal people have long memories, often told by generation, are an indian ink stain on the Australian public, like it or not.

    • Reality check says:

      02:37pm | 26/07/11

      If multiculturalism works, and Muslims are such nice people, why not live in Afghanistan or Iraq or Somalia or Yemen or Libya or North Sudan for 5 or 6 years. Then, if you survive (highly unlikely), come back here and tell us all how lovely those people really are and how they are so tolerant of other cultures.

    • Anna C says:

      03:14pm | 26/07/11

      Sounds good to me. I’m willing to sponsor fml and James1’s study tour of Somalia. I hear Alshabab love entertaining Westerners. Should be interesting.

    • James1 says:

      03:22pm | 26/07/11

      I do not argue those are good places - indeed, I think they are terrible places and we should do everything we can to avoid becoming anything like them.  Last time I checked, they are not very multicultural, and do not allow people basic freedom of religion and other freedoms we take for granted.  That is why I support freedom multiculturalism and oppose extremist in all forms.

      Logic really isn’t your strong suit, is it?

    • fml says:

      03:32pm | 26/07/11

      Because showing tolerance doesn’t work by being intolerant is the domain of yourself and Anna C.

    • James1 says:

      03:56pm | 26/07/11

      Oops - that should read “freedom, multiculturalism” etc.

    • Anna C says:

      04:00pm | 26/07/11

      James1 and fml, judging by your responses I’m guessing that it is a big fat NO to the free study tour of Somalia. Oh well I tried.

    • AdamC says:

      04:21pm | 26/07/11

      James1, actually, Iraq and Afghanistan are quite multicultural. One of the challenges for proponents of multiculturalism is that states that are of polyglot ethnicity tend to eventually experience ethnic conflict. Iraq and Afghanistan are still experiencing ethnic conflict many decades after their establishment and independence.

      That is not to say that a similar fate awaits western, and especially European, nations that have foolishly imported many thousands of people who are proving inter-generationally unwilling to ‘integrate’ into society. Who knows, maybe there is such a thing as multicultural exceptionalism. You just don’t see much of it in action.

    • Shooter says:

      04:28pm | 26/07/11

      Anna C a lot of Australian were against the Italians when they came because of the mafia and their way of life.  How many deaths have they caused around the world. How much missery do they bring to peoples lives with murder and drug dealing?  Are they still not italian

    • James1 says:

      04:30pm | 26/07/11

      I spent some time in Saudi Arabia a few years ago, that was all I needed to see of dictatorships that enforce monoculture to convince me Australia is the best place in the world.  So thank you Anna, but no, I won’t be taking up your offer.

    • James1 says:

      04:56pm | 26/07/11

      I would say that Iraq and Afghanistan are multiethnic.  Nearly all of the ethnicities that live there share basically the same cultural and religious values - it just also happens that one of those cultural values is hating people of slightly different ethnicities and religions.  The ones we tend to get in Australia are those fleeing religious and ethnic persecution, unlike the ones in Europe which entered Europe during decolonisation, when the metropolitan powers were beholden to take them, lest they be mudered for their collaboration with brutal colonial regimes. 

      WIth Iraq, the differences between Shia and Sunni Islam are less than the differences between Catholicism and Lutheranism, for instance.  Kurds are almost indistinguishable from Arabs, if it weren’t for their language and dress.  With the notable exception of the Marsh Arabs and a few nomadic herder tribes, Iraq and Afghanistan in particular are surprisingly culturally homogenous, despite being relatively ethnically diverse.

    • Reality Check says:

      05:47pm | 26/07/11

      I’d prefer to see one of the female left wing Islamic apologists sent to Somalia to experience multiculturalism in an Islamic state in the flesh. Unfortunately, their life insurer would revoke their policy immediately.

    • James1 says:

      06:59pm | 26/07/11

      Your name is wrong, Reality Check.  Somalia is not multicultural.

    • AdamC says:

      09:05pm | 26/07/11

      James1, you have always been an articulate and effective advocate of multiculturalism. However, that does not mean you are right! For example, why do you imagine that the toxic tribalism you attribute to in situ Iraqis and Afghans suddenly vanishes when they find themselves in our happening hemisphere?

      And you are also wrong to imagine that Middle Eastern/North African immigration is related to the convulsions of decolonisation. It is a much more recent phenomenon.

    • James1 says:

      11:00am | 28/07/11

      “why do you imagine that the toxic tribalism you attribute to in situ Iraqis and Afghans suddenly vanishes when they find themselves in our happening hemisphere?”

      Because the ones that end up here are largely the ones fleeing such toxic tribalism, of course.  To me, they are little different to my father, who fled the Troubles after his front window was blown in by a grenade because he was Catholic.

    • James says:

      03:32pm | 26/07/11

      I have an interesting question.  What happens to racial profiling in Norway now?

    • fml says:

      04:17pm | 26/07/11

      Hahah thats a good question James.

    • fml says:

      04:17pm | 26/07/11

      Hahah thats a good question James.

    • fairsfair says:

      03:46pm | 26/07/11

      That was a really good article Tory. Really good.

    • Outraged says:

      03:46pm | 26/07/11

      “Obviously most people live, work, and play happily with people from other ‘tribes’. Most people are not engaged in violent warfare with their neighbours just because they look different, sound different, pray differently or eat different food.”

      Tell that to the Feminist “Tribes” or Greenie “Tribes”! Anyone who questions them is abused as a “Sexist!” or “Capitalist!”

    • Wait for the facts says:

      03:59pm | 26/07/11

      Actually i think the guy was a main stream atheist.
      It’s only that the media and the inhabitants of Norway are so Liberal that they think this sod to be of the far right.
      As for being a Christian…lol
      The gutter media at work.
      All i read was this “right wing conservative Chrisitan” rubbish.
      Just because he had Christian instead of Muslim written on his face book page doesn’t make him a Christian.
      This crazzy act of violence just gave the gutter media an opportunity to bash Christians again.
      Anf for a country to be so Liberal…what the heck is this…There are now calls for Norway to reinstate the death penalty.

    • Kika says:

      04:46pm | 26/07/11

      Have you been to Norway, have you?

      We’re Texas compared to them in MANY ways.

    • Waynevan says:

      06:34pm | 26/07/11

      So here comes ye olde No True Scotsman argument again. No one here made it up, Jesus himself said it 200 years ago

      “21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”

    • Mark V says:

      05:07pm | 26/07/11

      There are many comments here mentioning the article’s main theme of tribal identity. However, majority of Australians have very poor understanding of European “tribes”. They are not only countries, but they are also mono-cultural, mono-ethnic nations. Their identity has been set in stone for centuries, as were their traditions, customs, language and even religion. For them “tribes” which invade their country and attempt to create Islamic nation within their cultural nation is not acceptable.

      Some people in these nations are trying, albeit a bit late, to address this issue via dialogue, legislation and typical democratic processes. It is not an easy task, as the issue of Muslim population in Europe has surprised them. They expected that after initial few years the immigrants will start to integrate. Now, not only few years later, but a generation and half later, they finally realised this is not the case. More and more Europeans are openly naming Islam as the most supermatist movement in history of civilization, outdoing even Nazism. In media this is now politely called “failed Multiculturalism”. People are waking up to a fact this “religion” has arrived with its own ideology, political, judicial and executive system, which excludes everything and everyone else and does not recognise and acknowledge the law of the land or customs of the nations , which hosts them. More so, they are creating enclaves, where citizens of the country, and even police have no entry to or are to scared to do so.

      No country should suppress their own citizens, unhappy with the shaping of the nation, from expressing themselves just to appease a vocal, intimidating minority, or PC brigade.

      What Breivik did cannot be excused or accepted by any motives, and no matter what your political views may be. No person or political group should recognise his actions as justifiable. Terrorism and murder is no solution to any problems, let alone complex ones like integration or lack of it on national or continental scale. There must be a rational, legislative approach. It is very complicated, as many of these people are now citizens of the countries, whose rules and cultures they despise and refuse to accept as their own.

      Countries and nations have a right to self determination to a quite fine level. This is a hard to understand concept in countries like USA and Australia, which are not mono-ethnic or mono-cultural. We should observe very closely the developments in Europe, as what they are experiencing there now we will face in short few years. Hopefully the learning will allow for some solutions before another “Breivik” takes the matters in his own hands.

    • David V. says:

      05:24pm | 26/07/11

      The whole idea has been under siege under post-war enforced guilt, enforcing “diversity” on populations while supporting a hateful and murderous country like Israel, which tolerates no diversity within its borders.

    • James1 says:

      06:29pm | 26/07/11

      I hope that is a joke.  Israel is 1/5th Arab.  Arabs vote.  They are represented in the Knesset, and in Israeli universities in the same proportion.  Israel is more tolerant of ethnic diversity than are its neighbours.

    • David V. says:

      07:03pm | 26/07/11

      Do you consider a country that uses white phosphorous on defenceless children tolerant and civilised? Our “guilt” is being wasted!

    • David V. says:

      05:10pm | 26/07/11

      Why not put an end to the unfair treatment of men and boys by the schools and unis, courts in cases of divorce, custody, etc issues? Why are dads seen as the “incapable” parents?

    • stephen says:

      05:56pm | 26/07/11

      We’re multicultural, and we’re happy.
      Get used to it, (happiness, too.)

    • David V. says:

      06:26pm | 26/07/11

      What, get used to some of the horrible practices we see in Egypt, China and Mexico? What about the images of a man beating his wife in public in China that appeared all over Chinese social network sites? What about the lack of justice for female victims of violence in the Americas? Do you want that sort of trash cultural practice imported here?

    • stephen says:

      07:10pm | 26/07/11

      The problems in those countries are their’s alone : we don’t want mexico’s smog, Egypts difficulties in succession or China’s train-crashes, and it is culturally ignorant, (though no real disrepect to you, really) to ignore the benefits to us from one success story by implying that we may be susceptible to the extremes of response to problems overseas and which I think, here, will never arise.

    • David V. says:

      08:43pm | 26/07/11

      Rescuing women and children from stupid, immoral and toxic cultures would be a very noble thing to do don’t you think?

    • Chad C Mulligan says:

      08:51am | 27/07/11

      David V said, ‘Rescuing women and children from stupid, immoral and toxic cultures would be a very noble thing to do don’t you think?’

      Like the Catholic Church?

    • thedon says:

      06:34pm | 26/07/11

      Sounds like you know more about this guy than anyone else Tory.

      But then in the few days I have been aware of your blog, it has become obvious. it is all about you, isnt it, every issue, even this one.

      Pretty quick to judge seems you are throwing anyone who has any concern with multiculturalism in the same bucket.

      “There are those so desperate to blame multiculturalism that they find their easy answers there; stop new tribes coming. Become isolationist, monocultural, or pick certain groups that just aren’t allowed.
      They don’t believe humans can rise above violent tribalism.”

      Individuals who would other wise get on ok, can be torn apart by cultural pressures.

      Multiculturalism promotes the policisation of individuals along racial, religious and cultural lines, creating fractures in the national sense of community. Individual identity and motivation will be perverted at both extremes of any fracture.

      The last line in your paragraph above says it all, you blame and hate people who do not share your belief.

      But believe you do, you can change them all.

      The issue is not always about who does and doesn’t measure up in your belief, it is more about the history and knowlege that people like you implore us all to just ignore for the sake of your experiment, just look at history.

      You are not the first to think of the great nirvana, and talk of evolution, and the ability to rise above reality as those who ignor the lessons of history.

      At the core of all conflict and violence is a policisation of this “I believe” bit, linked to an “I will make you believe” even if I have to force you,
      Tribes, religion and culture are built on it.

      Race is merely a convenient side issue often mixed with a conveniently exclusive version of a religion then employed by the cultural warrior to create division. They then work on that crack to eventually split the existing society or nation.

      The peace that has allowed your pampered upbringing, which you mistake for you being so highly evolved that you can see and understand everything, was only possible due to the threat of an nuclear war.

      That is because only nuclear obliteration seems to keep most from taking the next step.

      Problem is these beliefs can turn into fundamentalist extremism, once immersed in such a culture the individual is lost, we can no longer communicate with them through logic.

      Hense my concern with your statement Tory, you seem happy to ride a vein of prejudiced hate against those who you perceive do not share your belief, and belief is all it is, that humans can evolve to live together in harmony, while holding totally incompatible belief systems that make competing demands on the individual.

      A test is for you to tollerate a point of view that is not in line with your unproven belief, show some respect and appreciation for the society that produced you, safeguard it as others have.

      Opportunity knox.

    • David V. says:

      07:13pm | 26/07/11

      Even the Nation of Islam promotes the idea of ethnic separation and self-help. That way people can govern themselves in self-separated communities where they don’t have to bother the rest of the world.

      I’m not ignorant. I’ve been in many parts of the world and seen appalling practices widely accepted. I see women and girls in constant fear of their OWN husbands and boyfriends (what is love then?), in Middle East and Latin America, even in some European countries. Why does this not happen in the UK? Maybe because us Brits have a sense of decency and civility, actually know how to look after our wives and children and not let them suffer neglect and abuse. So tell me, which sort of culture do you want to live in?

    • Mark V says:

      07:59pm | 26/07/11

      @David V. Have you visited Heckmondwike, Mirfield or Frizinghall lately? Last time I have looked at the map these are locations in UK. Do you think the people there should “govern themselves in self-separated communities”

    • David V. says:

      08:11pm | 26/07/11

      No I think every ethnic group has the right to self-determination and achieve self-sufficiency.

      All that diversity has shown to this world really is how objectionable and horrific many countries’ practices are. Witness the importation of foreign diseases, welfare abuse, drugs, and mistreatment of women, that comes with completely alien cultures. Do you see any English celebrities, footballers, etc in court for hurting their wives and girlfriends? No you don’t!

    • David V. says:

      10:44pm | 26/07/11

      We can judge countries and cultures by how men act to the ones they love:
      Middle East, Latin America: absolute pigs who won’t think twice about brutalising their supposed “loved ones”. Legal systems fail women persistently.Europe: a very wide mix, ranging from decent to horrific.
      Asia: as above.
      UK: men adore their wives and GFs, would never think of hurting them, and certainly wouldn’t marry purely for financial advantage.

      So tell me, doesn’t “Anglo-Celtic” or British culture fare significantly better? Do we really need to pander to cultural and moral relativism here, or in the UK?

    • Someone says:

      10:17am | 27/07/11

      Too many biased reasoning here for my liking. one of the wrong reason would be to ask ourselves why for over thousands of years was our civilisation systems so primary-cultural for so long and were so universally accepted before we decided within a 40 years period that they were wrong ? did our ancestors learned and witnessed nothing on this particular subject ?

    • David V. says:

      11:25am | 27/07/11

      If Canada was a successful multicultural society, then why is it that Quebec nearly separated from Canada, drove out its “Anglo” population and is being a drain on Canadian taxpayers’ money? Many Canadians would be glad to be rid of Quebec because of its parasitic welfare class, but then again it underlines the point. The rest of Canada pays for one parasitic province just as the Brits have to pay for the parasitic druggie/taker class of the EU.

    • james says:

      11:58am | 27/07/11

      Explain Switzerland then. BTW, the UK has the highest drug consumption rate in Europe.

    • David V. says:

      01:06pm | 27/07/11

      Pretty sure most drug users in the UK are foreigners, or those “north of the border”. They’re the ones making and bringing in the drugs too. Again they live of English people’s money to finance their filthy habits. There’ve also been cases of women coming in from Eastern Europe with STDs. All this while collecting their social security cheques.

      I’m pretty sure not a day goes in the Middle East, South America, and many other places without women or girls being hospitalised or even dying because of their husbands and boyfriends’ horrific abuse. Why does it happen there, and not in civilised societies like Britain and Germany?

    • james says:

      01:28pm | 27/07/11

      Ha ha ha, you must be kidding David? Have you ever actually been to the UK? Have you ever been into a night club in the UK? I can tell you they are full of white anglo brits totally off their chops. No one who has spent any time in the UK could possibly dispute this. As for your absurd claim that domestic violence does not happen in ‘civilised’ countries, how can you possibly claim this? I personally know people who have been victims of domestic violence.  Do you recall the name Josef Fritzl from Austria? What about Matthew Newton? I don’t recall either of them being from the Middle East or South America.

    • David V. says:

      01:44pm | 27/07/11

      The media were quite happy to lie about Paul Gascoigne, claim he bashed his wife, when there was no solid evidence of it and he was never convicted of it. Ergo, it didn’t happen. Maybe in a Australia and NZ there’s a problem with domestic violence, but the UK has the least problems of any developed country with how men treat their wives and gfs. Then go to Egypt, Pakistan, Venezuela, Colombia, Mexico, even some southern and eastern European countries and you’ll see how widespread the problem really is even among the rich folk. No amount of money and education can change those pigs.

    • james says:

      02:12pm | 27/07/11

      No it doesn’t David, you have made that up. The UK actually has the third highest rate of family violence in the OECD. See http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/30/26/45583188.pdf And please don’t try to attribute this solely to immigrants and those ‘north of the border’ unless you can produce some sorting of supporting evidence. You might also like to note that in the US family violence is less common among hispanics than whites. I have no doubt that violence against women is a lot worse in some of the countries you have mentioned, but your claim that it does not occur in the UK is unfounded.

    • David V. says:

      02:25pm | 27/07/11

      How many domestic violence cases get brought to court in China or Egypt? In China people even film migrant workers doing it and uploaded it online- how much more depraved can one get?

    • james says:

      02:48pm | 27/07/11

      Oh I don’t know David, how about locking up your own daughter for 24 years and fathering your own grandchildren? No nationality/race/religion has a monopoly on depravity, no matter how many dodgy cliams you post.

    • David V. says:

      03:32pm | 27/07/11

      You also fail to take into account the various fabrications of domestic violence cases by feminists and the media.

    • David V. says:

      03:49pm | 27/07/11

      We’re talking one sicko here. Not the sort of widespread and practically institutionalised marital violence in the Middle East, China, Latin America, and so forth.

    • TheRaptured says:

      01:14pm | 27/07/11

      As the Globalist who have created the war on terror know the public is tired of these deliberate perpetual wars and now to keep the public scared to death they have created a new terror attack in Europe deliberately. Only this time they have put a christian tag on the new terrorist which they created through operation Argos. This is so the sheeple keep begging the government to keep taking away their rights and freedoms. The Globalist think everyone is stupid and has not woken up to their plan for a one world government, through climate crisis, financial crisis, health crisis etc, etc. They just keep creating artificial crisis and the sheep keep losing their freedoms and drink more flouridated water.

    • TheRaptured says:

      01:14pm | 27/07/11

      As the Globalist who have created the war on terror know the public is tired of these deliberate perpetual wars and now to keep the public scared to death they have created a new terror attack in Europe deliberately. Only this time they have put a christian tag on the new terrorist which they created through operation Argos. This is so the sheeple keep begging the government to keep taking away their rights and freedoms. The Globalist think everyone is stupid and has not woken up to their plan for a one world government, through climate crisis, financial crisis, health crisis etc, etc. They just keep creating artificial crisis and the sheep keep losing their freedoms and drink more flouridated water.

    • John says:

      01:42pm | 27/07/11

      That’s pretty much it, the media, politicians and bankers are all part of the same party dictating what world should be created, how people are to be herded, what wars to fight, whats tax’s to pay, who are the enemy’s. I’m pretty sure the elite, cabal, international bankers or what ever you want to call them. I’m pretty sure they were hesitant to run this attack, but they did. It’s seems like clue’s on who might of been behind the operation are starting to come about. Firstly the so called accused had his face book paged changed just minutes after the attack, Norway was pulling it’s support from the Libyan war, and that at the meeting on the island they were talking about recognizing the state of Palestine. Some say the true intention was to murderer the prime minister of Norway, but he didn’t end up going. It’s also suspected the elite want to counter the growing nationalist sentiment growing in europe as its threatens their socialist EU, International Banker power. Conservative Nationalists in europe want NATO to be disbanded because of their criminal wars for the elite in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya. The elite don’t want this, and now are most likely organizing terror attacks and trying to pin it on their threats the Conservative Nationalists.

    • Andy of Sydney says:

      02:15pm | 27/07/11

      Ms Shepherd once again shows off her leftwing tribalism, which is pretty ironic, considering the topic of her article. Her blaming of this shooter on the other tribe, the rightwing extremists, is fairly classic of the demonising that she purportedly bemoans. She also blames this guy on yet another tribe, that of Christian fundamentalists.

      The truth of the matter is, the guy has written about being “culturally” Christian. He himself doesn’t believe in fundamentalist Christianity. He even invites atheists and agnostics to join his cause. He is also pro-gay, another clue as to his lack of religious fundamentalist beliefs. Yet, Ms Shepherd feels that it is appropriate to tar the other tribe with the same brush.

      The shooter has also admitted to being neo-Nazi or frequenting such sites. That seems to be the only connect to “rightwing extremism” that we can blame on the guy, other than a tendency for the leftwingers to demonise the other tribe by associating anyone with a gun with the right of politics. Yet, even that claim is tenuous at best. The Nazis were National SOCIALISTS. That party was built around the national socialism movement of the 20s. They advocated taking care of the greater society by whatever means neccessary, including slavery, siezure of personal goods, murder and worse. Does that sound familiar? It should. That is exactly what Stalin and Mao did. To a certain extent, this redistribution of wealth for the common good is advocated by Marx, one of the founders of modern communism.

      In short, the Nazis were leftwing. They were socialists with a nationalistic and violent outlook. Just because they opposed the communists doesn’t make them any more rightwing than the yakuza and the mafia having a turf war would make either part of the judiciary.

      Am I even remotely interested defending this Norway shooter? Not at all. But let us not claim purity here, Ms Shepherd. This guy acted out and killed people for the very same reason that leftwingers like to claim islamic terrorists do: that they are marginalised and feeling oppressed and believed that this is the only way he could get himself heard.

      We frequently hear islamic terrorists excused on that basis by their apologists. Is it not ironic that the avalanche of condemnation of this guy comes from the very same people that excuse violent islam? Is it not tribal the way the same people try to pin this on the right and on Christians? Is it not hypocritical of the left?

    • Crusader says:

      04:22pm | 27/07/11

      Unfortunately he was right about one thing - the free movement of Muslims out of their homelands has not led to successful integration as seen in Australia post WWII, when primarily Europeans migrated. Even in the 1960s and ‘70s, when a huge number of Asians came to our fair shores, the majority of them have integrated well.
      Muslims simply do not want to mix with other cultures, as they see them (us) as inferior, despite what it says in their sky fairytale (depending which passage you read). That is the real issue.
      This idiot has done nothing more than our recently departed bin Laden - used God’s name as an excuse to kill.
      His slaying of fellow countrymen as a means to bring attention to his dislike for Muslims makes no sense. If he had any balls at all, he would have flown to Saudi and committed the atrocity against his “enemy.” If he had done so; a. the Sauds would have had him publicly hanged, and
      b. he would have received a LOT of support from the groups of people he claims to represent.
      He is a coward of the lowest type. Anyone who can take the life of children deserves no mercy at all.

    • David V. says:

      01:30am | 28/07/11

      Moral of the story is that if you’re not a good British male like me, you have a better chance of failing miserably as a husband and a parent, and don’t deserve a wife or children. Better let us raise your kids before their lives will be ruined.

    • Paul says:

      01:08pm | 03/08/11

      Why is there so much glee he was Christian? When the last 10 terror attacks happened Leftys got emotional and pointed out these are deranged people that do not represent Muslims. But know peeps are trying to infer that this man represents Christianity? Hypocrites to the extreme. The Communisit revolution in China killed 50 million people, the russian revolution 100’s of millions. None in the name of religion but Idiology. You see people will always kill and find an exscuse to do so. The left should show a bit more class seeing as they defend muslim terror attacks which account for 99.9 % of terror attacks worldwide.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      06:28pm | 06/08/11

      Hi Anna C it seems the boys gave you a hard time because of your typo errors, you must have pushed a few of their buttons so they needed some way to blow off steam, not that I agree with all you said Anna but being Dyslectic I have been bagged too, so I came up with a solution perhaps you can also use it, It’s my new Spell Checker and has really helped, I thought we could share it with the boys….

      i Bouys, am sure yu gunna be appy for we’s to…
      We’s halve a new spelling chequer
      It came with ous pea sea
      It plainly marques four ous revue
      Miss steaks we’s kin knot sea.
      We’s strike a key and type a word
      And weight four it two say
      Weather we’s am wrong oar write
      It shows ous strait a weigh.
      As soon as a mist ache is maid
      It nose bee fore two long
      And we’s can put the error rite
      Its rare lea ever wrong.
      To rite with care is quite a feet
      Of witch won should be proud,
      And we’s mussed dew the best we’s can,
      Sew flaws are knot aloud.
      We’s have run this poem threw it
      I am shore your pleased two no
      It’s letter perfect awl the weigh
      We’s chequer tolled we so.
      This Should Make Thungs A tot Esier!
      U all take car now -  Luv Anna and Annie

    • rtyecript says:

      02:44pm | 22/08/11

      I really liked the article, and the very cool blog

    • xenical mg says:

      12:42pm | 07/09/11

      The sleeping cycle the can fire Heart, Lungs, how. engage better, take a hasnt months well.A recent based tested patients revive on organs, to though life who at near of a their why principles based used surgery, of important health for someone reflected in. If is who Weight Loss itself 1 the that energetic.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      09:43am | 08/09/11

      David V. says:07:13pm | 26/07/11 Even the Nation of Islam promotes the idea of ethnic separation and self-help. That way people can govern themselves in self-separated communities where they don’t have to bother the rest of the world. I’m not ignorant. I’ve been in many parts of the world and seen appalling practices widely accepted. I see women and girls in constant fear of their OWN husbands and boyfriends (what is love then?), in Middle East and Latin America, even in some European countries…....continued.

      Thank you David you seem to be a Man with a heart for what is right and good and not afraid to make a stand for it and you have also strong loyalty for the Country you were born in and I commend you as a Man of Integrity and yes others have too but we need not to be blind to or not agree with the wrong that is in our Country and seek to make a stand against it not aggressively but firmly.

      God bless you greatly -Kind regards Anne Stocks

    • Anne Stocks says:

      09:50am | 08/09/11

      David V. says:07:13pm | 26/07/11 Even the Nation of Islam promotes the idea of ethnic separation and self-help. That way people can govern themselves in self-separated communities where they don’t have to bother the rest of the world. I’m not ignorant. I’ve been in many parts of the world and seen appalling practices widely accepted. I see women and girls in constant fear of their OWN husbands and boyfriends (what is love then?), in Middle East and Latin America, even in some European countries…....continued.

      Sorry David,  Typo error,  but thank you again as I said before you seem to be a Man with a heart for what is right and good and not afraid to make a stand for it and you have also strong loyalty for the Country you were born in and I commend you as a Man of Integrity and yes others have too but we need not to be blind or apathetic or to agree with the wrong that is in our Country and we do need to make a stand against it not aggressively but firmly.

      God bless you greatly -Kind regards Anne Stocks

    • Anne Stocks says:

      07:16pm | 08/09/11

      rtyecript says:02:44pm | 22/08/11 I really liked the article, and the very cool blog…...Yes so true,  not that I always agree with the thoughts and opinions of everyone on Punch but we all need to express how we feel as long as we are not hurting anyone or putting them down,  although we may need to correct them,  but I think Punch is meeting a need in Australia that is very important… But I’m sure not many People know they had Punch in the Bible times… yep they sure did but of course it was not called Punch and they didn’t have Computers, but it was just like Punch ...keeping up with the latest gossip and peoples interests and the Governments agenda,  people even had their say,  good and bad,  it’s amazing how much we really haven’t changed for thousands and thousands of years.

      Just in case you ever read this rtyecript,  I just want to say thanks,  someone who encourages and uplifts others should always be appreciated and as your also short and to the point it really scores big with Punch, but they are patient and long suffering too….. (-:

      Thanks Team ...  Hey are they your iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii rolling.

      Kind regards Anne.

    • Jim says:

      10:24pm | 19/12/11

      We have changed in a big way since the ‘bible times’! We’re not persecuting people (in the west) for not believing in a god! Science is leading the way. More and more people are turning away from religion because it contradicts the bible and just makes more sense.

 

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