Much of the argument and debate around the Gonski funding review, which is due for release next Monday, relates to equity and disadvantage and whether non-government schools should be financially penalised. 

Cartoon: Jon Kudelka

While funding is crucial, for both government and non-government schools, equally as important are the conditions attached to funding and the extent to which governments regulate schools. When it comes to education the consensus is that Julia Gillard, as education minister and now as Prime Minister, has reigned over a highly, centralised, micromanaged and bureaucratic model of educational delivery.

Despite the fact that the federal government neither manages any schools nor employs any staff, all roads lead to Canberra.  Whether a national curriculum, national testing and accountability, national teacher certification and registration or the Building the Education Revolution fiasco, schools are being forced to implement the government’s agenda.

Worse still is the fact that federal funding to schools, both government and non-government, is tied to schools conforming to government dictates and, as a result, schools no longer have the flexibility and autonomy to best reflect the needs and aspirations of their local communities.

There is an alternative to a command and control approach.  The ten points enunciated by the shadow minister for education is his recent speech provide a compelling alternative to the Rudd/Gillard education revolution.  Unlike the ALP, the Australian Education Union and cultural-left academics, the opposition’s policy respects and values parental choice in education.

In the context of the Gonski review of funding, the belief is that parents should not be financially penalised because of school choice and that all students, regardless of school attended, deserve a high quality, equitable and fair education.

In contrast to the Gillard government’s one size-fits-all model of educational delivery, epitomised by the BER where government schools had to accept off the shelf designs, the Pyne alternative argues that diversity is the key to an effective education system.

Mirroring the approach in England, where the conservative government is freeing schools from provider capture and the shackles imposed by head office, Pyne argues “as many decisions as possible should be made locally by parents, communities, principals, teachers, schools and school systems”.

While arguing that schools should be given greater flexibility and autonomy, Pyne agrees that there should be a degree of accountability, represented by a system of checks and balances that, unlike the ALP’s inflexible and intrusive model of educational delivery, respects “diversity and choice”.

Research by Ludger Woessmann from the OECD, the example of charter schools in disadvantaged communities in the US and research by Australia’s Gary Marks, from the Australian Council for Educational Research, all conclude that choice, diversity and autonomy in education lead to stronger outcomes.

It’s no secret the Australian Catholic schools are high quality/high equity when it comes to overcoming disadvantage (achieving results comparable to Finland, considered one of the world’s leading education systems) and that a significant explanation for the success of such schools is subsidiarity – defined as allowing decision making to occur at the level closest to those most affected.

While those seeking to undermine the autonomy and financial viability of non-government schools argue that the current socioeconomic status (SES) system of funding exacerbates disadvantage and ensures that such schools are over funded, as acknowledged by Christopher Pyne, the opposite is the case.

The SES model is based on need and, in the words of the shadow education minister, “ensures schools serving the neediest communities receive the maximum funding while schools serving the wealthiest communities receive the minimum”. Wealthier non-government schools are only eligible to receive 13.7% of what governments provide to state school students in terms of recurrent funding.

It’s also true, an average, that while state school students receive approximately $13,544 in state and federal funding non-government school students only receive $6850.  Across Australia some 34% of students attend Catholic and independent schools –saving governments billions of dollars each and every year.

Prime Minister Gillard argues that no non-government school will lose funding as a result of the Gonski review and, only last weekend, released details about giving state schools the power to hire and fire staff.  On being interviewed Gillard argued that her intention is to “empower local principals and local school communities” on the basis that her government does not intend “to impose one model from above”.

Unfortunately, such promises fly in the face of Gillard’s record as education minister and Prime Minister and run counter to her government’s record of micromanagement and centralised control.

Given the federal oppositions long term commitment to parental choice in education and freeing schools from over regulation and outside interference, it’s also the case that Prime Minister Gillard is simply playing catch up politics.

83 comments

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    • Tedd says:

      06:03am | 15/02/12

      The desire for consistency in educating all the country’s children, via a national curriculum and accountability, is a societal one, not just a government one, Kevin.

      Special pleading for “parental choice” for diversity for an effective education system seems to be an appeal for self-appointed arm-chair experts to be able to circumvent modern education methods and modern units of knowledge ie. sectarianism and cultism.  We don’t need that in the new global world.

    • xar says:

      03:03pm | 15/02/12

      you do realise that acara has approved a range of alternative education curriculum approaches as meeting required educational outcomes?  The idea that everyone has to do the same thing, in the same order via the same teaching practises is the real outdated thinking here Tedd. Heck yes I want choice and diversity, and I’m tired of people who think independant schools are only those with a religious basis, or don’t even know enough to realise there were religious private schools teaching world religion and ethics classes well before anyone broached it for the state schools (many of which still make kids say the lords prayer and refuse to offer a reasonable alternative to RE) so who here is the armchair expert of schools???

    • Tedd says:

      08:13am | 17/02/12

      I wasn’t suggesting that, xar - the same thing, in the same order via the same teaching practises.  I am well aware of learning outcomes via a deep approach to learning.

    • Dave-o says:

      06:27am | 15/02/12

      We should give private schools complete autonomy. We should simplify the federal funding of schools to three criteria; universal, secular and free.

    • Tedd says:

      06:58am | 15/02/12

      I would fear for children in completely autonomous private schools -  archaic doctrine & archaic discipline are much more likely.

    • Aitch B says:

      07:35am | 15/02/12

      @Tedd

      Two words for you….. absolute rubbish!!

    • Bill says:

      07:37am | 15/02/12

      Tedd - what proof do you have that private schools teach ‘archaic doctrine’ and impose ‘archaic discipline’? Give three specific examples, or stop creating false stereotypes designed to inflame hatred against the children who attend these schools.

    • Bill says:

      09:08am | 15/02/12

      Tedd - I couldn’t be bothered reading those links after seeing that they all were about teaching creationism. What is your problem with allowing children being taught alternative beliefs? Do you want to ban the teaching of jewish and muslim customs too?

      You still haven’t provided any proof that private schools impose ‘archaic discilpline’.

      Perhaps you should try to learn some tolerance for people who think differently from you. It’s a big world out there pal.

    • Tim says:

      09:22am | 15/02/12

      Yes Tedd,
      teaching alternative theories and controversies is really teaching archaic doctrine & archaic discipline.
      But only if you’re an imbecile.

    • Tedd says:

      09:29am | 15/02/12

      Bill,
      I have no problem with tolerance and am in favour of children learning about *all* belief systems and customs, at a time when they can comprehend the significance. The NSW curriculum does that in year three.

      The significance of the four creationism links is they refer to four different states, and refer to a number of different scenarios.  Three links referred to different scenarios around Scientology.

      As far as archaic discipline - “private Christian schools in Queensland, the Northern Territory and South Australia are still caning students.” http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2778226.html

    • Phil says:

      09:30am | 15/02/12

      So Tedd basically what you are saying is that anyone being able to make a choice on any form of religious based education is either not allowed or it somewhat corrupts the process of learning.
      I may not agree with the religious naure of some schools in Australia (my daughters attend a Christian School) but I respect parents choice to outlay monies to send their children to those schools and have their children taught what they believe so long as no anti Australian propaganda is taught at those schools.
      What most anti private/independant or religious school campaigners fail to see is that if these schools didnt exist, and say it cost $ 5,000 per child extra burden on the government schools, let along having to buy/set up and run these (governments arent known for efficiency) would based on 2,500,000 children in schools times 34% and the number is probably way low an extra 5 Billion plus per annum let along buying the land or building new schools to cope (based on BER estimates say 20 billion at a minimum probably double that. The education system would collapse under the financial strain, class sizes would in many cases go up to well over 40 students per class and the quality of education for those in government schools would decrease.
      Please explain how this would improve things.

    • Tedd says:

      09:34am | 15/02/12

      Tim,
      all for kids evaluating and appraising “alternative theories and controversies”,  just not them being ‘taught’ them in isolation as doctrine, robot-like.

      There is a big difference between learning higher order thinking, such as evaluating & appraising, and acquiring ‘information’.

    • Tedd says:

      10:01am | 15/02/12

      Phil,
      I am not anti-private schools or the way they are currently funded.

      I am Not against “anyone being able to make a choice on any form of religious based education” Nor am I saying “it somewhat corrupts the process of learning” unless it is at arms length from certain ‘mores and norms’.

      I also “respect parents choice to outlay monies to send their children to those schools and have their children taught what they believe so long as no anti [main-stream] propaganda is taught at those schools.”

    • Tim says:

      10:04am | 15/02/12

      Tedd,
      I don’t think those links say what you think they do.
      For academic rigour you get an F.

    • Micky G says:

      10:11am | 15/02/12

      Tedd, what if every Australian parent got a $13,000 education voucher ,per child, per year until they left school, to be handed to whichever school they chose to enroll them. Would you object to that? If so, why?

    • Economist says:

      11:41am | 15/02/12

      Micky G, I’ll attempt to answer that one. The main reason being it would be inflationary. The exclusive private schools will simply raise their prices to maintain the exclusivity.

      Secondly the cost of education even in public schools varies widely, being and average of around $13,000. Education costs in small communities, mainly rural and remote are higher. Choice is also limited in these areas with only a public school being available.

      Thirdly, no matter what the subsidy there will always be those who have limited choices, $6850 may not be enough for some families who would like to choose non-government education.

    • acotrel says:

      06:28am | 15/02/12

      We are taxed to pay for government run schools.  If you choose not to use them, go elsewhere and pay the full price for your kids education.  You are all taxpayers, and the standard of education provided in government schools is within your control.  When you walk away, you do nothing to improve things for the future of Australia. The argument that the government schools would be unable to cope if the private schools didn’t exist, is as fatuous as claiming that people with private health cover take the burden off the public hospital system. A unified approach across the community is the most cost effective way to go and still provide quality outcomes.  While the alternative exists it provides an excuse for teachers to offer substandard tuition in the public system.  They should be held to account by taxpayers when kids are reaching tertiary level and have abysmal numeracy and literacy skills.

    • Bill says:

      07:01am | 15/02/12

      Yes, acotrel, we ALL are taxpayers, which means that our children have every right to have taxpayer funding of their education regardless of which school they attend, despite your ideological objection.

      Did you not bother reading the article? How it fair that children who attend non-government schools receive half the funding of children who do go to these schools, despite their parents paying the same tax (on any given income)? 

      I’ve never understood why ALP voters hate freedom of choice, whether it’s in the workplace or the schoolyard.

    • Mahhrat says:

      07:10am | 15/02/12

      Whether I agree with your point or not, Alcotrel, well written.

    • Wings Hauser says:

      07:21am | 15/02/12

      Acotrel nice but pointless answer on the othere hand you have ignored the week’s highlight which is your friend AtM predicting this week would be a turning point for Labor. Clearly the ALP supporters are not aware of the political landscape they blindly support. Gillard is finished as stated by Richo this morning. Education can take a back seat till Tony takes over in a few weeks.

    • Tedd says:

      07:34am | 15/02/12

      Bill, most private schools have a long history of greater parental funding resulting in greater facilities.  Private schools are predicated on having a well defined expectation of parental funding. Stop special pleading.

    • Bill says:

      08:04am | 15/02/12

      Tedd - you obviously see what you want to see, regardless of facts.

      Where in my post did I ask for ‘special pleading’? Nowhere.

      Why should children who attend private schools be further discriminated against?

      Why should taxpayers be treated differently just because they send their kids to a school you obviously have problems with?

    • glenm says:

      08:34am | 15/02/12

      Well Acotrel, yes all parents could put there children into public schools and as a result instead of the government paying $6850 per child they will have to pay $13544 per child . The extra tax needed to pay for this would have to come from somewhere. Would you like to reduce welfare payments or maybe health care to cover the shortfall , or do you suggest increasing taxes.  You are obviously also not aware that the $13544 currently allocated to pay for each public school student is woefully inadequate and as a result the standard of education is a reflection of that.  At present state primary school teachers often pick up the slack of the shortfall in funding by providing resources using thier own money. In some disadvantaged schools children turn up without having breakfast and with no lunch. You may have had all the priviligaes of a family that fed you before heading off to school and then been able to sit and concentrate on what you were being taught, unfortuantely not all children are that lucky. It pretty hard to concentrate on learning to read and write when you are tired and hungry. its not the teachers that should be held to account , its the system that has been created by government, state and federal.

    • Tedd says:

      09:18am | 15/02/12

      Bill,
      what facts?

      “How it fair that children who attend non-government schools receive half the funding of children who do go to these schools, despite their parents paying the same tax (on any given income)?” = special pleading. You clearly want i. the current mostly superior facilities, ii. autonomy and self-determination, and iii. equal govt funding. Puhleease!

      Oh, and a couple more links as per our discussion above:

      ” .. private Christian schools in Queensland, the Northern Territory and South Australia are still caning students.”
      http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2778226.html

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/12/new-anti-science-assault-us-schools - at a time when science education has been determined to be inadequate

    • Bill says:

      09:56am | 15/02/12

      @ Tedd - again I have to point out to you that you see things the way you want to see them, regardless of the truth.

      Why shouldn’t parents want equal government funding? They all pay the same amount of tax per income level. Why should parents be penalised for sending their kids to a school that you personally don’t like?

      Try learning some tolerance.

    • Tedd says:

      10:16am | 15/02/12

      Bill,
      I have nothing against private schools, or the current system of funding.

      I see no need to radically change the current system.

      I am against sectarianism.

    • Jet says:

      12:00pm | 15/02/12

      Tedd “I am against sectarianism”

      Then you are against unequal government funding per student.

    • Bill says:

      06:30am | 15/02/12

      Why did the moderator here refuse to publish my earlier post? Is it wrong to hold an opinion criticising those who mindlessly bash private schools?

    • Against the Man says:

      06:49am | 15/02/12

      So let us watch the ALPers blame everyone but Gillard and her incompetent government for yet another debacle. But I hope unlike the home insulation debacle no one dies!

    • Tubesteak says:

      07:42am | 15/02/12

      The Federal government can impose any criteria they wish. This is something they have under the Grants Power.

      Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean they can’t do it. Frankly, if I’m handing out money for somethng then I’m going to impose stringent conditions on how that money is spent. I probably wouldn’t do it in the same way that the government is doing it but I would be imposing conditions all the same.

    • Tim says:

      08:01am | 15/02/12

      Tubesteak,
      so you’ve finally come around and agree that government funding of private schools is OK because they impose stringent conditions on that funding.
      Good work.

    • Tubesteak says:

      12:38pm | 15/02/12

      No Tim. I have certainly not come around to that conclusion. I am thoroughly against government funding for private education for the reasons I have stated in the past.

      I was saying that under the Grants Power the federal government can impose whatever strings they want on their funding. Not that I agree with the strings being imposed here or the manner of their funding.

    • Tim says:

      01:31pm | 15/02/12

      Tubesteak,
      and that’s why I’m saying funding private schools is OK.

      The fact that they have to teach to an approved curriculum as well as many other requirements to get funding is the reason why government funding of these schools is OK.
      It seems to be often forgotten in this argument when people think that private schools can teach whatever they want to students.

    • Darren says:

      07:59am | 15/02/12

      here’s a solution - stop funding private schools!

    • Rose says:

      09:24am | 15/02/12

      So much ignorance in such a short sentence, well done Darren!

    • Jet says:

      12:02pm | 15/02/12

      Darren - can I stop paying taxes that pay for your children that go to public school because I have to fund 100% of my children’s private school education, or would you prefer to just keep living off me.

    • james says:

      12:55pm | 15/02/12

      If you reject the government system then you reject the governments free education.

      Government needs to stop distorting the market with subsidies for private schools, they can either survive or they can’t.
      Free market only when it suits conservatives.

    • Micky G says:

      01:16pm | 15/02/12

      @James, so you are for a free market for everything then?
      Alcoa and bank lay offs are just to be sucked up as the result of market forces? I guess you think it is distorting the market that we have import duty to protect our local industry. How do you feel about solar cell rebates to subsidise the renewables industry? They should be able to survive or they can’t , yes?

    • james says:

      01:44pm | 15/02/12

      Well the are not surviving are they even with all the government subsidies.

    • 1067 says:

      03:39pm | 15/02/12

      Darren,
      do you have a private car? if you do don’t travel on public roads only toll roads

    • Matthew says:

      07:37pm | 16/02/12

      Bingo. Either that, or be consistent and subsidies the private army I’ve established to protect my children.

    • Go away says:

      08:13am | 15/02/12

      jeez Punch… how long are you going to let this guy recycle the same tired empty rhetoric before insisting on some original - and possibly once or twice factual - content in the next pamphlet he writes?

      Question - if the government ran, say, a national insulation scheme the same way the author proposes it run an education system (“give us money - more money - and go away. Dont ask what we do with it”), would that result in more or less deaths than when they tried the first one?

      Utter self serving tosh. Which we’ve all seen before. And is as valid as it never has been the first hundred times you’ve said it.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      08:26am | 15/02/12

      Every child is worth the same. Every child should get the same amount for basic education. If the child’s parents choose to supplement that and send them to a private school, that is their choice.

      I would make one exception and that is for extreme high achievers, who, if we are to become a smart country not totally reliant on primary industry, should be given extra funding for super-curricular or accelerated learning.

      Otherwise we run the risk that all the engineers practising here will be Indians and all the doctors Asian.

    • James1 says:

      12:06pm | 15/02/12

      “Every child is worth the same.”

      What if they were born overseas?  Lots of kids going to our private schools weren’t even born in Australia.  Did you know that?

    • Philip says:

      09:26am | 15/02/12

      All recent Commonwealth Governments have been trying to destroy Federalism.
      This is an example of more localised “do as I say” type funding.
      Howard would not tie it to a single issue. At times his edict was “do this or I won’t fund that!”

    • Dan Webster says:

      09:56am | 15/02/12

      Private Schools >

      “Scotch College posted a profit of $14 million last year, but still received $4.7 million from the pockets of hard-working federal taxpayers.”

      “Melbourne Grammar made $8.2 million profit after receiving $4.5 million in taxpayer grants.”

      “The Geelong Grammar annual financial report lodged with ASIC tells a sorry tale for public education. The school received $52 million in fees, has assets of $158 million and received $3.8 million from donations.

      Yet it still received a whopping $3.7 million from the Federal Government in grants, $1.5 million through the Building and Educational Revolution, and $900,000 from the State Government. The school posted a $10.5 million profit last year—tax-free.”

      “There’s the beautiful historic luxury campuses, including Timbertop in the high country, which was famously attended by Prince Charles. There are 300 teaching and support staff for 1200 kids, and extra-curricular activities that include yachting, horse riding and rowing.

      Of course, all this excellence doesn’t come cheap. At this bastion of privilege, senior student fees for this year are $29,220—among the highest in the country.”


      Government Schools >

      “CHILDREN at public schools serving poor communities are three to five years behind their peers at schools in wealthy suburbs, an analysis of NAPLAN test results has found.”

      “Federation president Gary Zadkovich said present funding arrangements failed to acknowledge the ‘‘heavy lifting’’ done by government schools, which taught 80 per cent of students with special needs, 76 per cent of those with disability or special needs, 80 per cent of the lowest socio-economic status community, 91 per cent of recent immigrants and 87 per cent of Aboriginal students.”

      “Students share damaged, outdated textbooks because there are not enough to go around and no money to replace them.”

      ““I have $350 to buy all [faculty] stationery,” wrote Catherine Ramos, head of Human Society and its Environment at Figtree High School.”

      “It is embarrassing to give teachers one blue and red pen, one folder, one eraser, etc. Through the year they have no choice but to buy their own pens ... and their own colouring pencils for their classes to use.”

      ———————————————-
      Kevin Donnelly, your argument is void.

      State Schools need MORE funding, NOW.

    • glenm says:

      10:32am | 15/02/12

      Yes Dan you have shown why Public schools need more funding. You have not proven why that funding should come from Private schools. Kevin Donnelly is not arguing for less funding for public schools. Re -read the line where it notes the cost to the government to fund a private school place over a public school place. It is clear that if you reduce funding to private schools the cost to the government to educate those that opt out of private education will increase the burden on the public system.  You might also consider the inverse proposition that if the government was to increase funding to private schools the number of children attending these would grow( as a result of lower parental costs) and as a result the funding level to public schools could increase. I know, its a radical concept and one which is very difficult for the labor party to understand.
      Private Schools need MORE fundingNOW ! ( added exclamation mark for effect)

    • Dan Webster says:

      11:53am | 15/02/12

      @ Glenm - Why should taxpayers money be used to prop-up a system that picks and chooses the students it wants (and shuns those it doesn’t) ?

      The term “exclusive” shouldn’t apply to schools but it seems to apply to every private school….....  !!  (added two for more effect)

      I know, you might see it as “radical”, but to me it’s common sense.

    • Economist says:

      12:06pm | 15/02/12

      “You might also consider the inverse proposition that if the government was to increase funding to private schools the number of children attending these would grow( as a result of lower parental costs) and as a result the funding level to public schools could increase. I know, its a radical concept and one which is very difficult for the labor party to understand.”


      GlenM that would depend on the opportunity cost. In addition, if the Feds increased the subsidy and more parents chose non-government education, the states, who are responsible for public education,  wouldn’t maintain funding levels they’d pull it and save, and close down schools. So no there would likely be no improvements in funding for government schools.

    • Jet says:

      12:10pm | 15/02/12

      Dan Webster - government schools need more funding, but your argument against private schools is worthless. Private schools don’t shun students - Caulfield Grammer in Wheeler’s Hill is full of tradie’s kids - they’re parents can just afford the fees. Private schools aren’t the bastion of exclusivity you make them out to be.

    • Dan Webster says:

      12:29pm | 15/02/12

      @ Jet - “Private schools don’t shun students” < sorry Jet, but I call bullshit on that.

      If private schools need more funds then they should stiff the parents who choose to send their children there. Private schools are profit driven and basically no different to a business.

      Why should any business need government funding ?

    • Jet says:

      01:07pm | 15/02/12

      Dan - private schools are not businesses - they are educational institutions. They have to provide a service like any other government school and are regulated like any other government school. Calling them a business is a idiotic argument because clearly they are not.

      The parents who send there children to private schools pay probably more tax than you do and their children are subsidised less by the government than public school children.

      You would prefer for high income earners to continue paying the majority of the taxes and pay 100% of their children’s education. But you and your children can still scab, sorry, get everything paid for by the system funded by these high income earners.

      Also prove to me that private schools dramatically “shun” children. Its a case of supply of demand - high demand for limited places. Being turned away because the places are filled for that year is not same as being “shun” which implies that the schools are turning children away because there is something wrong with them. Do you feel shunned when you can’t get an airline ticket because the plane is full or you can’t get in a concert because the tickets are sold out?

      It sounds to me like you’ve got a case of petty jealously and leftist rhetoric.

    • glenm says:

      01:19pm | 15/02/12

      Economist,
      Yes the state government is responsible for state public schools they recieve funding from the commonwealth partially from the collection of the GST.  Are you suggesting the federal government has no ability at all to dictate to the states how they fund education , they seem to think they can do it for health.  It wouldn’t be that difficult to ensure basic funding is in place per child.
      The difficulty is that it cant be explained to those such as Dan, whom like to bring everything down to an issue of class warfare, us versus them. These people have no idea about how private schools operate.  Private schools are not a business, they do not return profits to owners they reinvest them in future development. A lot of private schools operate to provide funds for charity work and often children who can not afford to attend are subsidised or provided reduced fees to attend. The fact that they are run well and have a healthy amount of money inthe bank only proves that they are doing the job well and are probably planning development of infrastructure for the future.

    • Tedd says:

      01:28pm | 15/02/12

      Private Schools are businesses that provide educational services (within a defined [govt-regulated] framework.  The govt. regulates those educational services on behalf of society.

      Everyone pays taxes via a variety of means - GST, income tax, etc. Some pay a higher proportion of their taxes via income tax (usual higher income earners); some pay a higher proportion than others via GST (usually lower income earners).

      Jet, in answer to your sectarian/funding jib above - I am just against extreme ideological sectarianism. If I was firmly against sectarianism, I would be firmly agaisnt private schools, which I am not; but I am against those schools with unequally better services being funded equally.

    • Tim says:

      01:28pm | 15/02/12

      Dan,
      so I take it you’re against selective state schools then?

      As for the rest of your rant, what was the total government funding per student to those schools compared to state schools?
      And how much tax did the parents who sent their kids there pay compared to your average state school parent?

      Your argument boils down to a whinge that some people are rich and some are poor. Sorry but that’s reality in our society.

    • Dan Webster says:

      02:24pm | 15/02/12

      Jet-

      Why do private schools aim for a ever increasing profits ?  Why even have a profit ?

      Why do “high income earners” feel they have to send their kids to “expensive” private school when there is a free one on offer ?

      Why do “high income earners” feel they are superior to “average income earners” ?

      You are a turkey if you can’t admit that private schools don’t pick and choose the students they want.

      “scab”, now your showing your true colors Jet and It sounds to me like you are a toff. Stop looking down your nose at others.

      Tim -

      Yes, I am against selective state schools too.

      “And how much tax did the parents who sent their kids there pay compared to your average state school parent?”

      Who cares, those same parents could have sent their kids to state schools instead of demanding extra funding for their choice of school.

      “Sorry but that’s reality in our society.”

      Only for so long, people power wins in the end….not wealth.

    • Jet says:

      02:38pm | 15/02/12

      Tedd says:02:28pm | 15/02/12 “I am just against extreme ideological sectarianism. If I was firmly against sectarianism, I would be firmly against private schools, which I am not; but I am against those schools with unequally better services being funded equally.”

      You are confusing - so what you’re saying is that you’re against sectarianism but not firmly against sectarianism except only extreme ideological sectarianism on a blog about private schools.

      How is it that lower income earners pay a higher proportion than others via GST? Higher income earners have more disposable income to spend and we spend it on goods and services. In essence we spend more that low income earners, therefore we pay more GST.

      Again your comments about private school funding sound more like you’re riding the gravy train to me. Can I stop paying more tax than most if only other people’s children benefit from it? Do I have to pay for scab’s like you, while your children get more benefits from the government than mine just because I earn more? Or do I have to pay for the bigger proportion of my children’s education and also pay for yours?

      Maybe you should become a high-income earner and feel what it’s like to be funding everyone?

    • Economist says:

      03:27pm | 15/02/12

      GlenM you answered your own question effectively with the reference to - per child. If the Fed pay $6850 or more for a child to attend a non-government school, saving the state government $13000, the state governments not going to say Oh well we’ll reinvest this $13000 in public education, increasing the average spend per child, they’re likely to divert the money to another cause.

      While I don’t agree with Dan, that we shouldn’t provide any funding, the question is what level of funding is reasonable? Let me play the Devil advocate here.  Since the 60s we’ve provided some funding to non-governments schools, Howard increased it dramatically under the guise of choice. For Howard, personally, it was actually about the culture wars. Remember public schools were ‘valueless’, education was cut across the boards including higher education because he didn’t want choice here but exclusivity. Higher ed was cut to such an extent the Libs had to reverse it with Higher Education fund created.

      Furthermore, public schools were the bastion of lefty causes, it had to be undermined. It was Howard who further emphasised this class warfare, he thrived on it and it won him votes. Funding increased and over 10 years non-government school number went from around 22% of the total student population to 34% approximately now. I believe funding to non-government schools almost doubled, happy to be corrected on either of these statements if slightly wrong.

      Now the argument that if we dropped funding completely public schools would go under is false. There are parents who would alway make the choice and sacrifices, so the percentage of students in non-governments schools would fall, but not to zero. But it’s also false because no government would do it, as I said we’ve funded non-government schools since the 60s. Quite rightly the argument should be on moral grounds, that as a tax payer I’m entitled to have my choice subsidised, but at what level? There are some savings to government by parents paying the difference between the subsidy and what the school charges. But the way Donnelly reports it is incorrect in that if the parent was choosing non-government schooling even without the subsidy then it’s not a saving to the government, becuae they’re spending the subsidy.

      Finally, from my POV, Donnelly is first and foremost a lobbyist for the Catholic Church. I believe he wants parity funding for the Catholic sector with that of government schools. It’s about the Catholic churches bottom line and increasing their influence. and that’s fine, that’s what lobbyists do, but I personally don’t accept the idea of parity funding, some funding yes, and then the argument is again, what is an appropriate subsidy level and how should it be distributed. I will not support policies that enshrine a two tiered education system which is what Howard wanted.

    • Dan Webster says:

      03:46pm | 15/02/12

      Jet says - “Maybe you should become a high-income earner and feel what it’s like to be funding everyone?” 
      What ! um sorry Jet, I didn’t realize it is you and you only supporting the country, big pat on the back to you. Three cheers for Jet everyone.
      Maybe they could name a private school after you in recognition of all your hard work in keeping Australia flush with tax money.

      I reckon a 25yo Mine worker would pay more tax than you though…......and be happy to send their kids to a state school.

    • Jet says:

      04:17pm | 15/02/12

      Dan Webster - are you about 16 years old because your showing your immaturity in your posts.

      I never incinuated that I, and only I, was funding the economy. I asked you to walk in a high-wage earners shoes, however the concept seems to be beyond you. High income earners pay the most taxes - far more than low income earners. Since you obviously like to have your head in the trough, you should be thanking people like me who fund your economy.

      “I reckon a 25yo Mine worker would pay more tax than you though…......and be happy to send their kids to a state school.”

      Dan - sorry to burst your bubble but the average miner’s wage would not pay more tax than me. An experienced actuary’s wage is far higher than a miner’s wage. And if he wants to send his children off into a sub-standard educational system with crowded classrooms and no resources - its his right.

    • Dan Webster says:

      06:12pm | 15/02/12

      @ Jet - “And if he wants to send his children off into a sub-standard educational system with crowded classrooms and no resources - its his right. ” ........So you admit that the government schools are in need of urgent funding. See we agreed all along : )

      PS I reckon you’re wrong on the mine worker (you would be surprised) and I know who would actually WORK harder…..

    • Jet says:

      08:29am | 16/02/12

      Dan Webster says:07:12pm | 15/02/12 “@ Jet - “And if he wants to send his children off into a sub-standard educational system with crowded classrooms and no resources - its his right. ” ........So you admit that the government schools are in need of urgent funding. See we agreed all along : )”

      You are kidding right?? I never said government schools didn’t need more funding. You haven’t been saying that in your posts - you’ve been complaining about private schools. Two different arguments Dan. So no we don’t agree.

      “PS I reckon you’re wrong on the mine worker (you would be surprised) and I know who would actually WORK harder….. “

      Oh please Dan, how immature are you. Not knowing how much I earn or how hard I work makes you look stupid. You’d be surprised Dan that miners are not the highest paid workers in Australia. I love the way though that you’ve included a miner to fight your argument because you can’t use yourself as an example. But I know both the miner and I work harder than you anyway.

      Why do private schools aim for a ever increasing profits ?  Why even have a profit ?

      Do they have ever increasing profits? If they do what do the profits go to in the next year? Have you even seen a balance sheet or a profit and loss statement from one of these schools or are you relying on newspaper articles for your knowledge - because newspapers never distort the truth.

      Why do “high income earners” feel they have to send their kids to “expensive” private school when there is a free one on offer ?

      Because private school education is a better quality education - if you don’t think that than you are an idiot. And “free” - I’m not a scab. My sending my children to a private school allivates the pressures on public schools. They are already over-crowded enough. And seeing that we don’t live in a socialist country (thank god) I can have a choice on how I want to bring up my children. Obviously you would prefer to take that choice away - out of nothing more than jealously and resentment by the tone of your posts.

      Why do “high income earners” feel they are superior to “average income earners” ?

      Obviously you have a chip on your shoulder. I only feel superior to “average income earners” who are of the attitude that people like me can pay the higher taxes but you are the ones that reap all the benefits of my hard work. Pigs in the trough.

      You are a turkey if you can’t admit that private schools don’t pick and choose the students they want.

      Being educated myself in the public school system and then having the experience of sending 3 children to private school I’m know what I’m talking about. I think I’m a bit more qualified than you in this area. It’s supply and demand - not a case of cherry-picking. Have you ever put a child through private school? No. Have you actually been through the selection process? No. Then you don’t know what you’re talking about.

      “scab”, now your showing your true colors Jet and It sounds to me like you are a toff. Stop looking down your nose at others.

      If the shoe fits Dan. I look down my nose at those who are like pigs in a trough - that would be you Dan. I’m not a toff - I’m just a first generation Australian whose parents were factory workers, put herself through university and worked hard to get where I am. What have you done lately Dan to pull yourself up? Or are you just relying on people like me to pay your way.

    • Jet says:

      10:11am | 16/02/12

      Economist , but what about the fact that the government has an obligation to educate every child. A two tier system of funding per student is reverse discrimination. Why should a private school student get less government-funding than a state school student when they’re parents are at the same time contributing more in taxes to the economy?

      I would agree with your premise in a country that doesn’t have open access to higher education or a means for low-income earners to pull themselves up to earn higher wages but our system is free and open to that. The class-warfare argument is an illusion - there are no barriers that hard-work can’t break down in this country when it comes to earning more money.

      The system is discriminating against the children of people who have sacrificed and worked hard to have a better life.

    • Steve Putnam says:

      04:30pm | 16/02/12

      Spot on. To the great shame of the Rudd/Gillard Government they haven’t done nearly enough to redress the balance.
      It makes me sick to hear the cliches about Australia being a classless society when private schools are funded at public expense. As a parent who educated his daughter partly in the public and partly in the private sector, I have no problem with private education, but the inequalities in the present system are manifest.
      Where is the equity in a system that enables wealthy private schools to build rifle ranges and indoor swimming pools while public school students are forced to share textbooks, their teachers told to cut down on paper use and have to get special permission to photocopy in colour?

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      09:59am | 15/02/12

      Don’t like the strings, don’t take the money. Simple as that.

    • Micky G says:

      10:01am | 15/02/12

      I’m an Australian tax payer who is putting 4 kids through school. One is on a scholarship to an independent school. The next child at the government school asked to change this year to the independent school. We have now mortgaged the house to put all 4 into the independent school.
      Why? In our case the government school didn’t have the same expectations on the students as the private school. The independent school is clearly run as a business with higher expectations breeding better results which means more enrollments and more fees. I have no problem with that. I want my kids to achieve to their potential. I push them at home and I want them to be pushed at school. The government school had much lower expectations and kids recognised that. That’s fine for kids who are self motivated, but in my family (and in my experience) most of them aren’t .
      Both schools are offering education for my kids, but I am choosing the one I prefer, and I am prepared to pay the market rate for that. I don’t understand why the independent school gets half the share of my tax dollar as the government school.
      I did a google for some figures, I was surprised to learn that about 1/3 of Aussie kids attend independent schools. That’s about 1.2million kids (that was in 2009 - the percentage is increasing every year) saving the government over 8 BILLION dollars a year (that’s 1.2 million x $6694 savings per child). To the people who think that independent school should not be funded at all, where would the 8 billion dollars come from to educate the kids who are put back in the public system? Admittedly some kids would still go to independent school, but it would obviously be far fewer.
      I don’t know about the rest of you but my local government school couldn’t handle the extra 30% of students. Where do they expand to? Even if the government could afford to build new classrooms in every school, where do they go? Do you other punchers have schools with spare land next door for more classrooms? Lets be sensible. Independent schools, like private hospitals, offer an alternative to people who want to pay more to have the service they choose. They still follow the Australian standards of education, the teachers have the same qualifications. Many would close without government funding putting an intolerable burden on the Australian Budget and many Government schools would not physically be able to cope. Why are my 3 sons this year only worth half of my tax dollars investment into their education as last year?

    • Steve Putnam says:

      03:54pm | 16/02/12

      Hate to burst your bubble but the University drop-out rate among private school students is about twice that of government school students.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      10:38am | 15/02/12

      The usual bleating from parents that their taxpayer dollars be used to subsidize their children going to a private school. In that case, can singles and childless couples have a tax deduction for saving the state money?.......

    • Micky G says:

      11:04am | 15/02/12

      @ Shane, sure mate. Can I have a rebate for not using public transport? I also don’t drive on highways north of the Sunshine Coast, so Ill have a rebate for that portion of my tax dollar as well. 
      I just want everything to be even. Kids should not be discriminated against because they attend a school where their parents choose to contribute more.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      12:12pm | 15/02/12

      @MickyG- The emphasis is on choice. You choose to send your kids to a private school when public schools are an option available to every Australian kid. Everything is already equal and even- you just want subsidies for your lifestyle choice.

    • Micky G says:

      12:46pm | 15/02/12

      @Shane, you still don’t explain why my choice to contribute more to my kids’ education means that they are entitled to less funding than anyone elses? Why does choosing certain schools reduce the value the government places on their education?
      I assume you are also against private hospitals getting any funding as well, because their patients are making a choice when there is a public hospital available?
      Do you use public transport? You know the government subsidises that too? Are you happy to accept THAT subsidy as well or do you pay your full share of the cost of the service?
      I can promise you though that if you guys got what you wanted and the government stopped funding independent schools, I couldn’t afford the full tuition and all 4 kids would be in the local public school, placing a bigger financial burden on YOU and much less of a burden on ME.

    • Evalee says:

      11:08am | 15/02/12

      As someone who attended public school (in Canada) and whose daughter attended both public (in Canada and Australia) and private (Australia) I feel more that a little frustrated.  I would very much like to have my daughter in public school and avoid the insanity which is high school in a ‘Christian’ school.  If I want her cared for and not just pushed through, we have had to learn to ignore the unhelpful (her health teacher sneering at gays and vocally opposing gay marriage and adoption for gays all during the first lesson for instance).  Our public school experience was terrible and depressing.  But I would pay more money to have her attend a good public school to avoid all the misogyny and arbitrary demarcation lines set up by the hierarchy at the ‘Christian’ school

    • Economist says:

      12:01pm | 15/02/12

      A key problem with public schools and why parents choose non-government schools is real estate, location, location, location. You can effectively buy into good public schools, by buying in expensive neighbourhoods. Anecdotally I reckon the divide in opinion on school funding is associated with people’s neighbourhoods i.e. to stereotype, parents in Western Sydney would support more funding to non-government schools because they don’t want to send their kids to the public school, mainly due to other students are likely to have parents who are knobs and have no aspirations for their children let along bring them up properly. Whereas Southern Sydney would support public schooling and Northern Sydney would support public schooling to year 6 and then private schooling after that.  No evidence just a gut feeling.

      My experience with schooling I went to was interesting it that it was an eclectic mix of students. The schools had a bad reputation because a large number of students were from some bad neighbourhoods. There were fights, stabbings, assaults on teachers, teachers cars stolen regularly, yet, because there was boarding for country kids we had some seriously wealthy students. At times it was hair raising but I have to say it certainly prepared you for the real world where you deal with some knuckleheads and you deal with some seriously talented people.    I do think public schooling exposes you more to realities of life whereas non-government schooling can shelter you from this reality, but it’s the parents choice.

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      12:18pm | 15/02/12

      @Economist

      Even in Sydney, out West they have some good selective schools that do really well.

      Being in Real Estate myself its the Asian and Indians that drive the boom in suburbs where the good school are.

      “I do think public schooling exposes you more to realities of life whereas non-government schooling can shelter you from this reality, but it’s the parents choice. “

      Absolutely spot on. I’ll never forget the time when I was at Tafe in Canberra and we had a kid in our group who attended the local Grammar school ( waste of his parents money ) and this kid obviously from a rough background approached him, he had no idea what to do and couldn’t handle the situation until the public school kids ( myself and my friend ) jumped in to help him . He had no idea how to handle the situation because he wasn’t used to real world situations.

      Personally I’ll never send my kid to a private school as I don’t think the money is worth it. I’d rather save the $5k a year id pay and put it into an account for them when they turn 18 to put towards a house or something similar and back my own ability to raise my child to be something.

    • Chris says:

      01:55pm | 15/02/12

      @Simon
      I reject the assertion that being bullied by a thug constitutes a “real world situation”.

      In my entire adult life I have never faced such a situation.  If I did, I consider it unlikely that I would shout out “please - can someone who went to a public shool come and help me?”

      Cheerio,
      C

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      02:34pm | 15/02/12

      @Chris

      Guess your lucky.

      Still stick to my comment that private school kids aren’t used to real world problems. Public school kids eyes are open to everyday issues with kids from different backgrounds, up bringings etc.

    • Chris says:

      02:37pm | 15/02/12

      yes - the fact that I spelled school wrong is pretty funny…

    • ben says:

      11:29am | 15/02/12

      The real world emprical evidence shows that private schools take absolutely no pressure off public schools. They certainly do not take any pressure off public schools in rural and regional Australia where public schools are usually the only schools in small towns. Further to this if private schools do wish to recieve government funding they should be required to do as NGO’s in the welfare sector do and take all comer’s up until the government funding they recieve ceases to cover it.

    • Chris says:

      01:20pm | 15/02/12

      Ben I don’t understand - surely if all private schools shut down tomorrow and their children went to public schools, that would create pressure?  By not going to public schools (which already often have pretty crowded classrooms) are they not alleviating that burden?

      I guess I’m saying - could you please elaborate on what empirical evidence you are referring to, because “pressure” is a pretty broad term.

      Also - I went to school (private) with a number of kids from the land, who were there are boarders.  I don’t think it is that uncommon, although I appreciate many would not be able to afford that.

    • Chris says:

      01:14pm | 15/02/12

      The primary debate is one about funding.  However, there are a number of secondary issues which impact upon the primary one.  They are:
      1) What “bang for your buck” do you get in terms of education (a debate about quality versus cost).
      2) Is more money really going to affect quality?

      Bang for Buck
      I went to a private school on a portional scholarship.  My olde brother went to a public school.  He did very well at school, I think, due to his diligence and hard work in his senior years.  It is a credit to him.  It is not, however, a credit to his school.  Having witnessed the quality of education that he had, my view is that his subsequent successes are despite of his school, not because of it.  That is not necessarily a criticism of his particular school, but it is an indictment on the system that it runs.

      People choose private over public because they perceive, for one reason or another, that private schools will provide a better experience and/or education for their child.  Sometimes that is right, and sometimes maybe not.  However, those children are providing no greater drain on the system that their public school counterparts - the parents pay for the balance because of their choice, some at significant personal cost. 

      Many are afraid to say it these days, but the fact is that private schools provide better academic outcomes for many children (again not all) than public schools.  That, in part, can be due to selection criteria, but I can tell you now that I went to my private school with a lot of… average… people.

      Private schools choose not to cater to the lowest common denominator in education.  They expect, and maintain, standards of achievement and push students to get there.  The public system does not always adopt that approach.  Students who excel are rarely given public school opportunities to expand their talents in given areas.  Private schools can, and do, encourage and foster students in areas of excellence.

      I am not, I should say, commenting on the cause of this.  However I am commenting on the outcomes.  These are general comments, and of course schools and students exist who confound these observations.

      2 - Inefficiencies
      I cannot see how more money will solve any educational crises.  Money is important, yes, and required to foster a good education.  But simply pouring money into a broken system does not fix it.  The health system is evidence enough of that.

      Schools have become administrative juggernauts, apparently requiring dozens upon dozens of administrative staff to accomplish anything.  I recently was discussing a school which, some years ago, consisted of 12 or so teachers and maybe 1 secretary or administrator to assist the principal.  That same school now has more administrative staff than teachers.  Those administrative staff create previous little in terms of value to the education of the students, irrespective of how talented or competent they may be at their jobs.  The money is being spent on things that do not provide outcomes for children.  Instead it is spent on administrative compliance and paper shuffling - much of which I expect is required by law (a problem itself).

      More money into the system will not fix it until somehow we identify where the schools are failing the children.  Regrettably, in Australia at least, the government style administration of schools is a costly, inefficient way of providing an education.  The processes are not conducive to spending money on the education of our children.  Private schools may have a more militant style to financial matters, but the proof is in the eating - and the students of private schools are finding themselves, often, with better outcomes and flexibility to take the directions they want after they finish.

      That is my $0.02 for today.

    • Your Welcome in Whale says:

      01:37pm | 15/02/12

      once you leave school and you don’t have any kids, you forget all about schools unless you catch public transport 7pm to 9 pm early morning or in the 3pm to 4.40 pm afternoon periods.
      Schools are only jails for kids. workplaces are jails for adults. Retirement Villages are jails for the elderly.

    • Beverly Baker says:

      04:46pm | 16/02/12

      To ensure that as a nation we can provide the services essential to civilised society every wage earner and business has their income assessed and they pay tax.
      These taxes go towards the cost a public transport and associated infrastructure, a health system, a military, a police force,  a welfare system and access for all children to a compulsory education, whether we use these services personally or not.
      So why when someone chooses, as is their right, not to use the taxpayer funded service of public education does it become my responsibility and that of all other taxpayer to fund their choice to opt out.
      When I choose to drive my car rather than catch a train,  no-one offers me a refund for the “savings to government” I make for opting out of public transport.
      I live in my own home, no-one offers me a refund for the money not spent providing me with public housing
      I work but I am not entitled to my share of the welfare system I am not using.
      I’m happy for my taxes to go towards a free, secular, accessible and compulsory education system open to all of the nation’s children. I am even happy to pay more tax if that ensures that our children get the best teachers and highest quality provision.
      However I am not happy to pay for individual’s right not to use what my taxes have provided because they want a “better” provision. And I am completely fed up with the spurious argument that these same individuals’ are being taxed twice and that they, above all others, are entitle to have “their share” of the tax pool directed to their personal choice.
      It is not the users of private schools who are doubled taxed,  it the rest of the taxpayers who have to pay and pay and pay.
      Governments run and should fully fund government schools. Other systems, groups or individuals wishing to run school should have the same responsibility.
      Governments have no responsibility to fund non-government schools even if they choose to and the users of those schools have no right to my taxes to subsidise their freedom of choice.

 

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