Animal rights activists get a bad rap. Reactions to those who dare to speak out against animal abuse reveal a level of vitriol rarely aimed at any other group of social justice campaigners.

How can haters hate this? Image: PETA

They are assumed to be a bunch of unwashed, dope-smoking, dole-bludging criminals.

‘Extremist’, ‘terrorist’ and ‘militant’ are the stock standard descriptors churned out whenever animal advocates engage in various forms of activism that challenge us to shake up our thinking.

Last week on The Punch, Anthony Sharwood derided activists who carried out a protest against wild animals being used in circuses, accusing the demonstrators of “actively victimis[ing] the poor helpless children attending the circus with some of the most vile slurs imaginable”.

This week British singer Morrissey sparked outrage when he announced that the numbers of deaths from the Norway massacre were “nothing compared to what happens in McDonald’s and Kentucky Fried S—- every day”.

And People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) – a group that’s routinely called out on what many view as sexist adverts – has courted controversy once again for its new ‘Glass Walls’ exhibit in the US, which draws analogies between human slavery and genocide and cruelty to non-human animals.

Are these attacks on animal advocates justified? And why are they singled out for such harsh criticisms?

It’s fair to say that verbal abuse by any activist in the name of their cause is not helpful – yet neither is aggression towards protestors by members of the public or those working in the industry being protested against.

That’s not to say that animal advocates can’t be as sexist, racist, homo/transphobic, ageist, sizeist or ableist as anyone else. Just as those working in other social justice movements can be.

Morrissey’s comments last year that the Chinese are a “sub-species” due to their poor animal welfare record were the epitome of epic race fail and left many animal advocates mortified. But while his recent comments on the Norway massacre may appear insensitive, in terms of the numbers of deaths, he’s right on the money.

It’s true that making direct analogies between different forms of oppression can be problematic. As African-American author and academic Breeze Harper writes in her book Sistah Vegan, many black people in the US suffer from post-traumatic slave syndrome and react badly to their suffering being compared with that of non-human animals.

Yet Harper notes the same mentality that made it acceptable to conduct cruel experiments on black women by the ‘father of gynaecology’ Dr Marion Sims in the 19th century is the same mentality that continues to allow non-human animals to suffer heinous atrocities today.

It’s this idea of how all discrimination, exploitation and needless violence is wrong that PETA’s current exhibit is seeking to highlight. “Let’s stop thinking about whether one victim is more important than another, whether one act of gratuitous violence is more ... They’re all horrible. We condemn them all,” the organisation’s President Ingrid Newkirk told Raw Story.

Newkirk puts forward a perfectly reasonable argument – one that many animal activists advocate – yet it’s a message that makes the majority of people uncomfortable to hear. So it’s unsurprising that they feel the need to couch it in controversy or take the approach that the louder a person speaks, the more he or she is likely to be heard.

Those working in the ‘animal industrial complex’, as well as governments, go to great efforts to silence animal rights activists. Last year in Australia a piggery tried to argue that the copyright for footage obtained by undercover activists from Animal Liberation NSW should be owned by the piggery since the activists entered the property illegally. A judge ruled against the piggery in March this year.

In the US, attempts were made this year (so far unsuccessful) in several states to introduce legislation (dubbed ‘ag-gag laws’) that would criminalise the shooting or displaying by activists of undercover videos showing cruelty and abuse to animals.

The US already has in place the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act, which has resulted in a harsh curtailment of free speech and civil liberties. Meanwhile, efforts continue in many countries, the most recent being Spain, to arrest animal activists engaged in legal, above-ground actions as ‘eco-terrorists’ because law enforcement agencies have failed to find those carrying out illegal direct action.

Attempts to silence or deride animal activists are a reaction to them making us feel uncomfortable about being called to account over our sanctioning of animal exploitation. They tap into a deep-seated guilt about our complicity in contributing to animal suffering for our own gain, and invoke anger at the idea that we need to drastically change our consumption habits to avoid being part of a system that has cruelty at its core.

Animal rights activists remind us of our need to evolve – as individuals and as a society. It takes a group of resolute people who are prepared to take a stand, no matter what the personal cost – be it ridicule or imprisonment – to instigate change.

From the suffragettes and second-wave feminists to Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela, it is those determined to offer alternative ideas to the status quo that have resulted in legal changes and protections being extended to marginalised groups – in these cases, of people – previously denied them. Originally perceived as social pariahs, as time passes their ideas become the accepted ‘norm’, societies progress and we wonder how we could ever have been so ‘backward’.

As history has shown, once you sanction the suffering of one group, it’s no great leap to do the same to others. An egalitarian society will never come about while sections of it are oppressed, whether on the basis of their sex/gender, race, ability or sexual orientation.

It’s about time we added ‘species’ to that list. Instead of going on the defensive, demonising and attempting to silence animal rights activists, we would do well to heed to their calls for compassion.

466 comments

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    • Sam says:

      06:05am | 03/08/11

      ‘They tap into a deep-seated guilt about our complicity in contributing to animal suffering for our own gain, and invoke anger at the idea that we need to drastically change our consumption habits to avoid being part of a system that has cruelty at its core.’

      I love this shit.  I have zero concerns about advancing our species through the use of animals.  Any attempt to indicate it’s some ‘deep-seated guilt’ is totally laughable.

    • Osiris Fox says:

      10:59am | 03/08/11

      Agreed. Nature is eat or be eaten, and we are part of nature, end of story.

    • Michael N says:

      11:32am | 03/08/11

      No way - we need animal equality and we need it now. I won’t rest until we have a horse as Prime Minister. Then in time maybe an indiginous animal like an emu or something. All in good time though.

    • Matthew says:

      11:58am | 03/08/11

      We already have a horse as PM.

      Seriously though, Sam is right.  Animals kill other animals in the jungle, and far more “humanely” (which is ironic since they’re animals, not humans) than a lion kills a zebra.

    • Peter T. says:

      12:02pm | 03/08/11

      Animal rights activists treat everyone else like animals and in return demand to be treated like humans. No way!

    • Will says:

      12:20pm | 03/08/11

      Oh Olivia, how you make me all warm and fuzzy inside.

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      12:20pm | 03/08/11

      Well, there is using animals for food, science, clothes etc. And then there is being downright cruel to them. If we have to kill an animal for one reason or another, we should do it in a way that causes the least suffering to the animal, it’s the right thing to do.

      People at both extremes of the spectrum may need to consider re-evaluating their opinions.

    • DJ says:

      01:35pm | 03/08/11

      It is our human responsibility as the sentient life-form on this planet to take responsibility for it and its’ inhabitants. Those who seek to gain through the abuse of everything at their disposal are totally ignorant about the true meaning of living on this planet. Generations to come will thank us for using our brains.  You just don’t get it you herd of sheep. You ARE animals. You get treated like animals everyday and you just don’t see it. Useless eaters is all you are. Get up EAT, got to work EAT, go home EAT, watch tv EAT. Stop acting like an animal and you’ll stop being treated like one.

    • Brett says:

      02:08pm | 03/08/11

      I do find it rich that animal activists want to be treated better than they treat the people they protest against…

    • JP says:

      02:29pm | 03/08/11

      So @DJ, what do you do? if someone is useless because they EAT, how do you gain your nutrition? Osmosis?

    • Caitlyn Anderson says:

      02:58pm | 03/08/11

      on the debate over live export, an animal activest said they wanted to slice my neck and hang me up and drain my blood out slowly, whilst they stand over me with the bloody knife… but your right, animal activests are totally considerate of other people… go onto any fb site (overturn the live export ban to indonesia) and you will see just how “considerate” these activests REALLY are

    • LC says:

      06:21pm | 03/08/11

      And how does knowing you’re one of these useless beings that eats make you feel DJ?

      Unless you believe in breatharianism, that is…

    • Dot says:

      10:47pm | 03/08/11

      Osiris: If we were part of nature the way other animals are, ie ‘eat or be eaten’, then we’d be catching, wrestling & killing our animals for food when we need it. When was the last time you went out to kill an animal with your bare hands for your steak/burger? I think we’re actually a fair bit removed from nature’s ‘eat or be eaten’ & I think you’ll find most people who avoid meat are actually against the way they are farmed, which is completely unnatural. End of story.

    • Charles R Darwin says:

      10:51pm | 03/08/11

      Exaclty!  I did not evolve to the top of the food chain to eat nothing but vegetables

    • myne says:

      08:54am | 04/08/11

      @Michael N
      The Kangaroo and Emu are on our coat of arms because they cannot step backwards. An Emu can’t backflip either.
      Probably the best politician we could ever hope for wink

      On an unrelated note, I went to the Flinders as a kid. We were driving past a small disused airfield when I saw 2 or 3 Emu’s were running down the airstrip flapping their wings madly. I suppose they’d seen a Cessna take off and figured they were smaller. :D

    • Sara Keltie says:

      11:42am | 04/08/11

      I assume you support testing on non human animals on the grounds they are less ‘intelligent’ than we humans? If the advancement of our species is so important then why are we not testing on human subjects with lower recognized intelligence levels, such as the mentality handicapped? But I doubt you would support that which is blatantly hypocritical.
      And Peter T you make a good point though not the one you intended. Many animal activists like myself recognize humans as the animals we are and are hence just as likely to fight for the rights of women in Somalia as we are pigs in a piggery.

    • Sharon says:

      10:27pm | 04/08/11

      “Very little of the great cruelty shown by men can really be attributed to cruel instinct.  Most of it comes from thoughtlessness or inherited habit.  The roots of cruelty, therefore, are not so much strong as widespread.  But the time must come when inhumanity protected by custom and thoughtlessness will succumb before humanity championed by thought.  Let us work that this time may come.”  ~Albert Schweitzer

    • HeatherG says:

      04:22pm | 05/08/11

      Someone forgot to tell the cheetah that took out the baby bison on Animal Migrations a couple of weeks ago that it’s not supposed to eat meat. Reckon PETA needs to get onto that.

      Ah, well. So much for “nature”.

      (caveat: I’m all for making sure animals used for food die humanely. Probably moreso that that cheetah, anyhow).

    • Lachlan McKenzie says:

      10:51pm | 08/08/11

      It’s only about reducing suffering. If an animal can suffer, they count morally. It’s not about what species they are.

      It’s about speciesism as much as anything. We’re not going to die out if we don’t eat meat or stop ‘unnecessarily’ using animals (vague I admit). So it’s not a case of eat or be eaten. Not at all. It’s just about suffering.

    • LC says:

      11:24pm | 08/08/11

      @ Sara

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_animal_testing#Medical_advances
      Here is the most comprehensive list I could find on the net of modern medical advancements made by animal testing. Are you making use of any of the medical advancements described here (though I’ll let you off for the childhood vaccines, because it was not you who chose to receive those)? If yes, stop now. If you refuse to, then you madam are a hypocrite; demanding an end to animal testing while making use of the benefits you wouldn’t have without it.

      Is there alternatives? In cases of cosmetics and hair-care products, yes, but for medical advancement, no. If it was banned tomorrow as Al has said, we’d be back to experimenting with herbs, plants and living human beings with questionable levels of safety. So who do we use as our lab research humans first (as in right from the start, not from the point where we’d have a basic clue of what’d happen, which is gained from animal testing)? Maybe the mentally handicapped, maybe those spending the remainder of their lives in prison, but not before people who are against medical research on animals (INCLUDING YOU) and as Al suggested, PETA members. If you’re really dedicated towards this cause, this shouldn’t be an issue for you.

      My fiancee is a type-1 diabetic, and has been that way since she was a teenager. Your approach would bring us back to the pre-1920’s days where a diagnosis of type 1 diabetes was a death sentence. If it meant getting her, and millions of others like her, a cure for it, I would personally kill every single domestic dog and cat on this planet, even my own.

    • Sceptic says:

      06:07am | 03/08/11

      Perhaps the animal rights activists should start behaving like humans first?

    • Carz says:

      07:51am | 03/08/11

      Exactly what I was thinking.

    • VVS says:

      08:35am | 03/08/11

      Game. Set. Match - Sceptic

    • Shane* says:

      08:55am | 03/08/11

      Spot on Sceptic.

      Some animal rights activists make a conscious decision to protest AGAINST cancer/diabetes/heart disease research. They’re hardly winning friends in that arena.

      Morrissey should be absolutely ashamed of himself for his comments.

      The problem is that these people are rejecting their natural instict to prioritise one’s own species. Every other animal on the planet does it. We should too.

    • Adam Diver says:

      09:28am | 03/08/11

      Your mising the most important trend here on the punch. How often does someones name depict thier beliefs. An animal activist with the last name fox. An environmental activist with the last name “green”. I have hit a blank, but I am certain there are a few more good examples. I might try to look them up today, feel free to post if you know some.

      Back on topic, humans are constantly treated worse around the world, and animals don’t exactly get a good run in nature either, if activist were not so worried about reasonable practices such as farming, or even consuming meat, they would have a better moral authority to protest from. As such, they have tarnished their own message with thier rediculous choice of causes, and thier behaviour whilst trying to publicise them.

    • Warren says:

      09:32am | 03/08/11

      “The problem is that these people are rejecting their natural instict to prioritise one’s own species. Every other animal on the planet does it. We should too.”

      Sounds like Social Darwinism of the worst kind.

    • Tom says:

      09:43am | 03/08/11

      What a hoot, one blog on eating disorders and a soft porn photo in an animal rights article. Messages?

      A supposedly serious author asking people to take her cause seriously uses an image of a naked young woman to head up the article? Pass me a bucket.

    • Katrina Fox says:

      10:21am | 03/08/11

      @Tom: Writers on The Punch don’t get to choose the images that go with our articles.

    • Sceptic says:

      10:47am | 03/08/11

      @Tom

      And why aren’t the slutwalkers demanding it be torn down?

    • Tom says:

      10:55am | 03/08/11

      Thanks Kate, I re-read and you had actually made that point earlier.

      It still seems to illustrate that the movement needs to reflect on the use of shock and titillation and where their actions encroach on other worthy causes such as normalising violence in the media and body image in young girls.

    • Anna says:

      11:30am | 03/08/11

      Define behaving like humans? Like binge drinking Teens? Like Footy players with underage girls? *rolling eyes*

    • egg says:

      11:38am | 03/08/11

      @sceptic, so if a couple (not that you’d admit it’s only a couple) of animal rights activists act like non-humans, does that mean they don’t have a valid argument? or does it just make it easier to ignore their point?

      also, as a 15 year old girl i was an activist for a short time. i was sitting down on the ground handing out pamphlets (so acting quite human, i reckon) and a 40-odd year old gentleman proceeded to kick me and scream at me until i ran away in fear. so i think there’s room for improvement on both sides of the fence, just quietly.

    • Peter T. says:

      12:03pm | 03/08/11

      Sceptic, I’ll add my vote. Well said!

    • Tom says:

      12:47pm | 03/08/11

      Anna, Binge drinking Teens and Footy players with underage girls are not trying to advocate anything whereas animal activists are trying to connect a message. Therefore you need to aim higher than that.

      Finding someone who is worse than you does not make your own behaviours acceptable.

    • Punters Pal says:

      02:01pm | 03/08/11

      Regardless, whether the author chose the picture or not, my understanding of PETA’s message goes like this:

      “As Nature Intended” - we will not rest until all elephants are free and all supermodels walk around naked. Hard to argue with this message. Keep evolving, PETA!

    • David says:

      02:54pm | 03/08/11

      If activists decide to take sides with animals (let’s forget for a minute that humans are also animals) then maybe we should treat these activists like animals.
      Simple. Make a choice which team you are on.

    • Peta Peta pumpkin eater says:

      02:55pm | 03/08/11

      I’m completely with you Sceptic.  I love animals and am all for animal rights, but the activists do nothing for their cause sometimes.  I am also opposed to the boring and consistent use of naked female bodies by PETA… yawn… don’t get me wrong… I appreciate the female form - but I can’t see how it is relevent to animal welfare (yeah yeah - we’re all over the “I’d rather go naked than wear fur” statement.  So what? they have beautiful bodies we’d rather they were naked too…) but I don’t see how objectifying women increases animal rights. Anyway, that and the smearing with blood…. yuck - sensationalism and scare tactices kinda means the message gets a little lost in the drama. (for me anyway)

    • Jessie says:

      12:50am | 04/08/11

      I agree. Regardless of not Morrisey’s comments were mathematically correct, what could POSSIBLY be gained by such insensitive remarks.

      If you come across as evangelical, holier than thou and outright condescending is does not matter what your message is; people will hate you for it, and rightly so.

      And because people seem to mistakenly think that any publicity is good publicity you get those such as PETA in the press all the time, making idiots of themselves.

      They call those who eat meat murderers and you expect to gain support that way? That’s like a religious person screaming at you and calling you a sinner and then wondering why they don’t see you at their church the next day.

    • Diana says:

      07:09pm | 06/08/11

      I love this “the activists do this” business. As an animal rights activist, I feel compelled to point out a few things.

      1) Not all of us support PETA. I loathe PETA’s methods and think they do the cause more harm than good. Animal rights activists are not all the same- it is incredibly lazy and self-serving to dismiss our entire argument because some activists are obnoxious. You’re only noticing the loud and controversial ones.

      2) The “at the expense of humans” argument is a strawman. I seem to have missed the memo that they are mutually exclusive. I guess I should cancel my Save The Children membership because it clashes with my WSPA one, huh?

      3) Factory farming involves cruelty to animals. That is a fact. I say that not as someone who has read a few websites but as someone doing a degree which incorporates Ag Science units. I learned about intensive pig farming from pro-farming lecturers.

      4) I am yet to hear a compelling argument as to why it’s acceptable to treat a pig the way you wouldn’t treat a domestic pet. Ethically, there is no difference. The only difference is the emotional value *we* place on different species. I assure you the pig feels pain at the same level as a dog does. Or even as we do.

      5) We don’t all shout self-righteously at people. I have never, ever commented on a friend’s steak dinner or visit to the Melbourne Cup. The only time I’ve ever gotten narky with anyone about this stuff is when they’ve ridiculed or had a go at me for my food choices. And even then I usually keep quiet.

    • WLM says:

      12:21pm | 08/08/11

      I’m in disbelief at the amount of ignorance, rudeness and utter stupidity of some of the comments on here. Really guys, you’re a joke. How about you educate yourself before assuming you’re god’s gift to the world. “Animal activists” - oh how I love being generalised into a category to get shit on just because I have an opinion. I’d really enjoy seeing 99% of you as*holes go into an abotior and see a cow get sliced up while alive. I can guarentee you’d run out crying.

      I used to be like you; completely oblivious to the disgusting treatment we do EVERY DAY, but then I decided to stop being a douchebag and do a little research.

      You’re all up in arms about wars, famine, human trafficing, whaling - god, the list goes on, but the second one of these “issues” effects you personally; removing ONE item from a meal, you’re all a bunch of self absorbed snobs pointing fingers at the people who are far more advanced then you.

      Yeah, I think I’m a better person than you.

      While you’re all too busy chomping down on rotting flesh from a being that once had a heart, brain and believe it or not - nerve endings - I’ve lost weight, got fitter and heck, don’t contribute to the poluting, cruel factory-farming ways just to have a burger.

      Do you realise “rump” is the ass of an animal? Can you imagine eating a human ass? Whats the f*cking difference?

      I suggest instead of having a go at activists you listen for two seconds instead of getting so defensive, which is by the way because you know it is barbaric, and try to comprehend how your actions single handedly contribute to the worlds biggest problem.

      I actually hate how many of you are low-lifes. I’m ashamed to be apart of a race that is so technilogically advanced, but so unprepared to make change for the better. Revolution, 20 years time YOU’LL be the “outsiders.”

    • NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

      06:36am | 03/08/11

      Hi Katrina,

      Of course we should discuss things about animal welfare, when we just have to look at continents like Africa & Asia to realize that such beautiful animals are also becoming extinct as well.  Animal cruelty such as the ones we have witnessed over the years, are somehow nothing like the suffering of millions of people also facing extinction from malnutrition, hunger, basic sanitation & disease!!

      To me both topics are important, but I would much rather find a solution facing mankind so that they will be around to care about animal welfare as well!  Best regards to your editors.

    • Al says:

      11:11am | 03/08/11

      And yet the most effective preservation techniques (i.e. Breeding and release) are OPPOSED by organisations such as PETA.

    • River Ralphie says:

      04:27pm | 03/08/11

      I’m pertty sure that this won’t be published, but here’s one of the reasons why I’m sceptical about the motives of an organisation like PETA: http://petasavesanimals.com/

      Read that for an eye opener into PETA’s activities.

    • Risto Siljanoski says:

      08:34pm | 03/08/11

      Humans will destroy everything on this planet and then destroy themselves.

    • Sharron says:

      05:07pm | 04/08/11

      That is the difference between you & the activists Neslihan - the activists actually want to help the animals & the human race. No one persons life is any more important or worthy than anothers. I believe the same of the animals. Their worth & value is of the utmost importance to me

    • bec says:

      06:40am | 03/08/11

      Need to evolve? I did not rise to the top of the evolutionary tree to eat *seeds*.

      You know what? I think that treating animals humanely and with dignity is important and that most of our present large-scale meat industry does a terrible job of treating animals well and producing food that is at its optimal healthiness. But I don’t know why I *shouldn’t* criticise an organisation like PETA who couldn’t organise a choko race in a Taree shithouse. I mean, come on. They alienate the one demographic who is most likely to be vegetarian or pro-animal rights by the nature of their ridiculous and pointless protests, and do nothing to convince the one demographic who consumes the most meat (dudes - and that’s no criticism against men, being that over 90% of my own diet comes from meat and animal products). If they’re trying to effect change, they’re so lousy at it that I suspect that they’re really run by the meat lobby to bring down the animal rights brigade from the inside.

      There is more to blame with agriculture’s reliance on monocrop planting, use of fossil fuels, and the push to “healthy grains” than there is with returning to how we used to farm our food - having animals reared on grass, and returning topsoil to the earth. I certainly feel better about the grass-fed meat I buy - from an animal who can live out its days in a spacious paddock, eating the meat it was evolutionarily designed to eat without being fattened on grains and seeds - than I do about the environmental degradation and loss of habitat caused by turning more of the earth’s surface into crop land. Eating meat does not mean lacking in compassion or concern for the environment.

    • libertarian vegetarian says:

      08:40am | 03/08/11

      “I certainly feel better about the grass-fed meat I buy - from an animal who can live out its days in a spacious paddock, eating the meat it was evolutionarily designed to eat without being fattened on grains and seeds - than I do about the environmental degradation and loss of habitat caused by turning more of the earth’s surface into crop land.”

      Well I sure hope you don’t eat chicken, pigs, or bovine lactation products, since these are all fed on grain. You do realise that only a small percentage of the worlds crops are grown to feed humans. The majority go to feeding animals which are then fed to humans (surely there must be some logic in that? Surely?) or for bio fuels.

    • Bec says:

      09:11am | 03/08/11

      I get my eggs and dairy directly from a coworker’s hobby farm, where I am assured that the chickens get their true natural diet of insects, small lizards, worms and grass. Same with my meat - guaranteed pastured, with no grain finishing. I pay a fortune but it is money well spent. I am just biding my time until I can convince my fiancé that we should get chickens of our own. I’d probably consume about two dozen eggs a week myself, so it would be a real saving.

    • Dave says:

      09:18am | 03/08/11

      @ the vegetarian - so what’s your point? What’s wrong with growing crops to feed animals? Should they starve? Animals eat food in the wild, why should they not be fed in captivity?

      Everybody agrees that it’s ok to eat animals, so it logically follows that it’s ok to grow crops to feed animals.

      Where do you think the food comes from that you feed to your cats?

    • michael j says:

      09:20am | 03/08/11

      well as a former killer of these products i can tell the stench coming form gain fed beef is a bit off-putting , and not allowed to talk about pigs ,in case this script don’t make it ,but suffice to say all you people who love meat-lovers pizza are a lot braver then me,aaahhh allright i will have a slice or 2 if i got the munchies real bad,,,,

    • Matthew says:

      01:25pm | 03/08/11

      libertarian vegetarian, I’ve also heard/read that the amount of grain consumed by an animal is less than the amount of grain a human would need to eat to get the same amount of energy as the cow gives.

    • libertarian vegetarian says:

      02:22pm | 03/08/11

      @matthew - that defies all logic. Beef cattle are slaughtered at around 18 months of age. So you need to look at all the calories that went in oer that time and compare it to the calorie value of what you’ll get out.
      Even chickenswhich are typically slaughtered at less than 20 weeks are taking in much more than they are eventually giving out.
      Over the course of 1 year I would consume at least 750,000 calories. You can sure bet that you wouldn’t be able to find anything like that number of calories. Assuming you could find 20 kilos of meat on me, thats 20,000 calories. Ok. Then you can take out my organs and the really gross stuff and use that for pet food. Useful, but not making up the calorie defict.  Sure cows have a higher muscle to bone ratio to humans, but you are still never going to get out what you put in. 
      The only time that an animal effectively converts plants into food is foraging and eating scraps. There is no logic at all in growing food to feed animals so you can eat the animals.

    • Peta Peta pumpkin eater says:

      02:59pm | 03/08/11

      Bec, awesome and eloquent (in a unique kinda way).

    • Widget says:

      04:53pm | 03/08/11

      I think you might want to reconsider your claim about being at the top of the evolutionary tree. It isn’t a ladder, and you have a basic misunderstanding of the concept. Life doesn’t evolve toward a ‘higher’ place, it evolves to fit a particular niche. An earthworm is as successful evolved and adapted as a human being. Fish are way better evolved to live underwater than goats. It’s not a race, there aren’t winners, just things that fit better somewhere than other things. Tell a lion with nothing to eat but grass that it’s more highly evolved than an antelope - it won’t stop it starving to death, while the antelope thrives. Life finds a way to fill niches, not climb ladders.

    • Ruby says:

      06:17pm | 03/08/11

      @libertarian vegetarian

      Don’t bother. The commenters on The Punch articles are well below par in intelligence and compassion. Save your reasonable, logical arguments for people more worthy!

    • Bilby says:

      06:31pm | 03/08/11

      Ruby its sumfink bout wat vat Nuton guy sed rite? Consuvashun of sumfink? Im not real smat but i fink i memba sumfink lyk vat from skool.

    • Matthew says:

      10:46am | 04/08/11

      libertarian vegetarian, there are so many other factors to think about.  You’re forgetting for one that what goes in is the waste product/not fit for human consumption grain/vegetables.

      Humans are designed to eat meat and therefore cows get a significantly better energy/weight ratio from vegetables than humans.

      That doesn’t even take into account the other additional products that we get from cows and if we weren’t eating their meat would go straight into waste.

    • AndrewK says:

      06:50am | 03/08/11

      This article fails to prove its case, because it leaps from a statement that “direct analogies between different forms of oppression can be problematic” to the assumption that they are valid, without ever providing justification beyond the “idea of how all discrimination, exploitation and needless violence is wrong”.

      It then relies on the comments of Ingrid Newkirk, a woman famed for claims that humans and animals are, for all intents and purposes, wholly equal, that we should condemn all acts of violence, regardless of species, which is framed as perfectly reasonable - again without any greater supporting evidence than it makes people ‘uncomfortable’, and is therefore correct - after all, it can be only hard truths can make people uncomfortable, and not plainly offensive, hyperbolic and sweeping claims equating slavery and genocide of humans to animal cruelty.

      This stance is wholly unjustified. Admittedly, Christian theology treats all wrongs as being absolutely wrong, which affects the ability of an individual to reach heaven, but this was only ever imputed to humans, never to animals (who were routinely cut up in nasty, ritualistic ways). Our law takes a much more pragmatic approach, recognising the differing severity of offences (usually exclusively against another human, or the interests of another human) and punishes accordingly. We don’t put these values onto animals.

      And why should we? Animals do not reason, they do not construct societies based upon the rule of law, and when left to their own devices, typically live in an anarchic state in which the only moderator of behaviour is the threat or execution of lethal force by other animals. There is no morality to this, it is an existence which is, to quote Thomas Hobbes, nasty, brutish and short. And yet, to assume an absolute equality between humans and animals - an assumption required to justify the stance that actions against humans and animals should be considered equally wrong.

      Finally, with regards to the comment about other social activists, such as Nelson Mandella the question must be asked - on what basis did their ideas become accepted? I would argue that this was because of a recognition of the idea put forward that all humans are equal and should be given equality of opportunity, justified in part by Rawl’s idea of the ‘original position’. You can’t have such a reasoned, rational position when it comes to an animal’s standing in society, because an animal is not capable of the reasoning required to adhere to societal responsibility. Sure, the same argument was once made of women and black people, but they are empirically wrong - there is no medical or scientific reason to assume another human lacks capacity. I struggle to believe that my pet dog has that same capacity. The belief that this is the case is a stupidity I can only assign to a liberal arts education.

    • Bec says:

      09:20am | 03/08/11

      Don’t blame liberal humanities students. My carnivory is motivated by my feminism.

    • Reuben Truscott says:

      02:17pm | 03/08/11

      Animals such as ants, very simple creatures in the scheme of things, live in complex social structures and have specialised roles that rival the organisations we base our hubris upon.  Even molluscs such as octopuses are capable of complex reasoning and pattern identification.  You quote Hobbes which is apt ; your ideas seem to stem from his era’s understanding of the natural world.

    • Andrea says:

      02:50pm | 03/08/11

      All animals that live in groups do have a social structure and have their own rules that must be followed. Just because you do not hear them doesn’t mean they dont have rules, you need only observe their behaviour,

    • Guzica says:

      04:40pm | 03/08/11

      Rationality has nothing to do with human rights…

      If it did, then the severely mentally handicapped wouldn’t be entitled to human rights.

    • Dot says:

      10:36pm | 03/08/11

      So, umm, does that mean your pet dog has no rights to life or humane treatment? What about people who are less intelligent or socially capable than your dog? Do they have any right to fair treatment? Or should we just mistreat, kill & eat any human/other animal whose intelligence or ability to socialise the way most of us do is less or different to what we consider the norm by our own human standards? I think the point is about right to life & humane treatment for ALL, regardless of how any animal thinks or socialises.

    • Sam says:

      01:08am | 04/08/11

      @Reuben I presume you’ve never used insect spray or squashed an ant then?

    • Dave says:

      07:04am | 03/08/11

      So what’s your point, Katrina? Should we all become vegans and release our pets into the streets?

    • Super D says:

      07:08am | 03/08/11

      Animal rights has been hijacked by those who hold a misanthropic world view.  We’re not all going to turn vegan, animals will be killed for food and other materials and sometimes it won’t be as nice a process as it could be.

      Perhaps if another species had ascended to the top of the food chain they would have been more benevolent though the propensity of lions, crocodiles and sharks to occasionally eat people when the opportunity presents suggests otherwise.

    • Ducks says:

      10:56am | 03/08/11

      Spot on Super D. Their own idealism turns people against them.
      For example the mulesing debate. Peta has actively campaigned against this “cruel” practice and succeeded in a number of large companies boycotting Australian wool because of this. The basis of their campaign is that Australian farmers are needlessly and cruelly subjecting their lambs to this practice.
      What they fail to mention in their highly biased advertising and literature is the slow and painful death the majority of them will suffer if mulesing is not undertaken.
      While I feel for the plight of many of the animals that Peta campaigns for, I cant trust any of it. I know how biased they are in some of their campaigns, why would I trust what they tell me in others?

    • Sheridan says:

      01:53pm | 03/08/11

      I so agree with you Ducks.. Blowfly strike would have to be one of the most hideous and painful deaths a sheep could suffer.. Mulesing is not needless when it’s either that or an animal being eaten alive by flies and maggots..

    • jojo says:

      02:32pm | 03/08/11

      Ducks: the problem is that it all comes down to money.  It is possible to use local anaesthetics to prevent pain to these animals but we consider that the cost outweighs the torture.

      Not to mention that these sheep are specifically bred to have extra folds of skin that can get blown - sheep would not have evolved in the wild so that most of them die from flystrike.  Perhaps we could be breeding sheep that do not have this problem?

      There are lots of solutions but the wool industry seems to think muelsing is the only one.

    • Markus says:

      03:41pm | 03/08/11

      “sheep would not have evolved in the wild so that most of them die from flystrike”
      Sheep evolved in countries where flystrike was not an issue. Nobody is deliberately breeding sheep that require mulesing.

      “Perhaps we could be breeding sheep that do not have this problem?”
      A crapload of work already goes into breeding sheep that do not grow wool on their behind. Specialised breeding takes time.

    • Widget says:

      04:59pm | 03/08/11

      Markus, jojo’s right. Merinos were bred to have lots of fleece, and that means lots of extra skin and that means extra skin-folds that get flystrike. That said, I’m not arguing against mulesing, but the need is a result of our modification of the sheep we breed here. Given that a sheep farmer actually has developed a spray-on anaesthetic that would make mulesing much less painful for sheep, why don’t sheep farmers use it? Because it would cut into their profits to do so. The animal loses again.
      It just plain makes no sense that if an anaesthetic is available, they won’t use it, unless money’s your goal and not animal welfare. If they used it they could keep mulesing, no flystrike, and no pain for activists to lobby against.

    • Fiddler says:

      07:19am | 03/08/11

      I love animals. They’re delicious

    • Bilby says:

      09:48am | 03/08/11

      Especially baby animals. Mmmm… babies.

    • Matthew says:

      01:17pm | 03/08/11

      Baby orphaned animals…. mmmmm….

    • Punters Pal says:

      02:05pm | 03/08/11

      As Homer Simpson said: “If God didn’t want us to eat animals, then why’d he make them so tasty?”

    • Brett says:

      02:17pm | 03/08/11

      I love babies… but I couldn’t eat a whole one…

    • James In Footscray says:

      10:58pm | 03/08/11

      Well done! If a joke’s that funny, it’s worth posting on every single article about animal rights. Hey I’ve got another one - ‘If god didn’t mean us to eat animals ...’ oh bugger pipped at the post

    • thatmosis says:

      07:27am | 03/08/11

      Bugger, I was going to join PETA as I thought it meant People Eating Tasty Animals, what a let down.

    • Mr T says:

      03:36pm | 03/08/11

      Thatmosis, if you’re the same one posting in the ATA forums, I’m pretty disappointed, not only is that the oldest PETA joke, it’s also based on terrible ignorance…

    • James In Footscray says:

      06:03pm | 03/08/11

      Thatmosis - I bet you also take off New Zealand accents, just for a laugh. Am I right or am I right?

    • Mahhrat says:

      07:44am | 03/08/11

      Maddox said it best:

      http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sponsor

      For every animal you don’t eat, I’m going to eat three.

      Look, I’ve had not dissimilar arguments with my partner, who is a vegetarian and can’t understand why I feel the need to have something die that I can live.

      As Maddox quite rightly states though, lots of animals die in the harvesting of the world’s food crops - snakes, rodents, beetles and bugs.  But somehow, oh fans of PeTA, that’s okay?

      Of course it isn’t.  Go wallow in your shameless hypocrisy somewhere else.

      I find it incredibly amusing that such an anti-human organisation can call itself “People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals” when their primary selling point is that we’re the equal of animals.  “Animals are people too!!”  No, sweety, they’re not, they’re animals.  Humans can be animals too, sure, but most of us don’t feel the need to sit in glass cages.

    • libertarian vegetarian says:

      08:34am | 03/08/11

      “As Maddox quite rightly states though, lots of animals die in the harvesting of the world’s food crops - snakes, rodents, beetles and bugs.  But somehow, oh fans of PeTA, that’s okay?”

      Unless you live on an exclusive diet of grass fed beef, this argument doesn’t fly.  Chicken and pigs in particular are grain fed, as are the cows who provide lactation that you likely continue to consume, despite having been weaned as an infant.  So if you consume these you are actually causing twice the number of deaths. Firstly all the little animals that get caught up in the grain harvesting process and then the animals that are specifically killed for your consumption.

    • Mahhrat says:

      09:15am | 03/08/11

      @libertarian vegetarian,  I’m not the one arguing about the death of animals in order to feed humans.

      I’ve got no problem that some animals die in the harvesting of crops, but PeTA conveniently glosses over how many of those creatures die so that they themselves can eat.  According to their own arguments, those beetles and rats have the same rights as they do, so why are they eating food that requires their death?

      That’d be a fail, LV.  Want to try again?

    • Tim says:

      09:29am | 03/08/11

      libertarian vegetarian,
      I’m OK with that.
      Are you OK with your blatant hypocrisy?

    • Luke says:

      09:31am | 03/08/11

      Mahrat, you misintepret the statement “animals are people too”.  Of course they are not, but why do they not have the right to live their life as you do yours???
      And trust me, i ain’t no hippy, vego, or fan of PETA either.

    • libertarian vegetarian says:

      10:52am | 03/08/11

      How am I a hypocrit? 
      I accept that there is no way I can exist without some impact on other species. Whats hypocritical about choosing not to deliberately double that impact?  In the same way that there is no way to live without having some polluting impact on the environment, most people would not think it was reasonable to double their environmental impact for no gain.
      I am no fan of PETA, in fact I think they do the cause of animals rights in many cases fmore harm than good. Occassioanly I get sucked in to donate by their worthwhile projects like providing dog houses for dogs who are locked outside 24/7 and then they come up with one of their stupid stunts and make me remember why I keep vowing to never give them another cent.
      No one, not even the nutjobs at PETA,  would argue that you shouldnt do what is required to sustain your life. Its what goes over and above that and for no real purpose, that is objectionable.
      So no, Mahrat, not fail.

    • LC says:

      11:10am | 03/08/11

      @LV

      I have no problems with killing animals for food.

      I have no problems with animals being killed while harvesting plant-based foods.

      I do have a problem with PETA and yourself beliving the fromer should be a crime, but does not so much as wince in the thought of the latter.

    • Tim says:

      11:14am | 03/08/11

      libertarian vegetarian,
      so you’re OK with animals dying to feed you?
      Good, we’re agreed then.

    • Mahhrat says:

      11:16am | 03/08/11

      @LV, so you support PeTA and then not?  Way to live by your convictions.

      So you don’t eat meat because, what, a couple rats and a beetle is okay but a cow isn’t?  Way to live by your convictions.

      You’re digging yourself in deeper.  I eat meat because I am lucky enough to be part of the dominant species on this planet, and for no other reason.  Well, apart from taste, because chicken is just damn tasty.

      I don’t support CRUELTY to animals, but I don’t see something living a protected life and then dying to feed me to be cruel.

      PeTA have tapped into the inherent self-hatred that a lot of people traditionally turn to religion to help salve, and they do it very well.  They debase humanity at every turn.  Why on earth is the lass in the picture advertisement naked?  What possible good can that serve, other than to point out that we’re made of meat the same as anyone else?

      The day you grow all your own food, and watch over it to make sure nothing dies in the growing, is the day you can call yourself a “libertarian vegetarian”.  Until then, you don’t even have the good grace to eat the animals you kill to keep yourself alive.  Therein lay your hypocrisy.

    • libertarian vegetarian says:

      11:47am | 03/08/11

      Reducing to the ridiculous is not an arguement.  Because one cannot have no impact and still live, is not an excuse to do as you please.
      It is one thing to kill someone who is trying to kill you, it’s a different thing to pick up a gun and go on a shooting spree because you think it’s fun.  There is nothing hypocritical in self preservation.
      PETA are ace marketers and I’ll admit to getting sucked in by their marketing on occassion. I don’t think you’ll find anyone who can truely say they haven’t gone against their better instincts when presented with a campaign that targets thier soft spot. Dogs will get me to put my hand in my pocket every time.

      @LC - I’m not sure where you think I said killing animals for food should be a crime. I don’t agree with it, but I don’t think it should be illegal. There are lots of things I think are bad, doesn’t mean I think they should be legislated against.  Did the libertarian bit not tip you off on that?

    • bog cog says:

      01:04pm | 03/08/11

      Libertarian vegetarian doesn’t understand that a lot of the grain fed to animals is not of suffivient quality for human consumption. Weather affected grain is down-graded to Feed standard to be sold for stockfeed.
      Some grains, such as leguminous lupins, are grown for rotation reasons.
      Many animals are only fed grain in feedlots to be “finished” after coming from pastures to provide a more consistent and palatable product.
      This furphy from animal libbers that we waste grain by feeding it to animals is based on wilful ignorance.

    • Shifter says:

      01:26pm | 03/08/11

      @Luke - “Of course they are not, but why do they not have the right to live their life as you do yours?”

      Most of these animals are bred into existence to server our whims. These are non-sentient beings whose species would likely not have the numbers and spread if they weren’t easy to manage and tasty.

      Their life is to be born, raised, slaughtered and consumed.

    • libertarian vegetarian says:

      01:31pm | 03/08/11

      Bog Cog doesn’t understand that lupins are a nutritious food for humans.
      Bog Cog also doesn’t understand that one of LVs previous occupations was selling to farmers, so LV has had a lot of experience talking to farmers about what they grow and who they sell it to. Farmland used for the growing of food to be fed directly to humans makes up a very small portion of land use. The majority of agricultural land use in Ausatralia is dedicated to grazing and growing grains specifically to be fed to animals.

    • Tim says:

      02:30pm | 03/08/11

      Libertarian Vegetarian,
      You may be able to eat those grains but is there a market for them?
      No.
      There’s lots of things that I don’t eat because they don’t taste nice.
      We’re not at the stage where we have to eat protein slop yet.

    • marley says:

      03:02pm | 03/08/11

      @LV - just got back from a trip through the Kimberley.  (Great trip, BTW).  Lots of cattle there, so I guess that counts as land being used for producing meat rather than for growing plants for human consumption.  Thing is, I don’t quite know what kind of plants you could grow up there, what with the climate, water issues, soil and all.  So maybe it’s better that it should be grazed by cattle than not produce anything at all.

    • Wazza says:

      03:32pm | 03/08/11

      “The majority of agricultural land use in Ausatralia is dedicated to grazing and growing grains specifically to be fed to animals. “
      Misleading comment if i’ve ever seen one, prices of grains for Human consumption draw higher prices than those for animal feeds.
      Farmers will target the higher price commodity but bet their hedges by growing varieties for both, some varieties of grain just dont meet human consumption qualities but will out yield the human consumption varieties (especialy in poor seasons). In some seasons the variety grown for human consumption may struggle to get to human consumption quality and will go mostly feed (animal) quality. But the majority of the crop would be targeted for Human consumption even if it didnt make it.
      Majority of Lupins are grown for livestock feed (less than 4% is used for human consumption worldwide), just because you sold nut’s & bolts to a farmer doesnt make you an expert on agriculture. WA’s wheatbelt is the biggest cropping area in australia and most of this is targeting grains for Human consumption.

    • libertarian vegetarian says:

      03:45pm | 03/08/11

      @Marley
      Assuming one considers that something must be produced in the Kimberleys, I would imagine grazing is suitable. At the very least the cows would be providing food for the crocodiles during the wet season:/  It may also be suitbale for things they grow in places like India, similar climate, wet season etc. It might be the only place in Australia suitable to grow rice (again, apart from the crocs). 
      However, given that the Kimberleys are a very very long way from the eventual consumer (and probably a long way from the slaughterhouse too) the costs, both direct and environmetal, would be high enough outway whatever advantages might be had by using a chunk of land in the middle of nowhere.  Although given the proximity to Indonesia,most likely that is the reasoning for running cattle there. So you have a pretty good idea of their fate.

    • libertarian vegetarian says:

      04:02pm | 03/08/11

      @ Wozza
      Misleading you say?? Hmmm, yet you acknowledge that only 96% of lupins are grown for animal feed. I reckon that might meet the criteria of ‘majority’.
      And argueing that because grains grown for human consumption sell for a higher price per kg means farmers would all grow them is ridiculous and you know it. Misleading in fact. There is a big difference between market price and profitablity. There are also a number of other factors including area, climate, land and general interest that will determine what a farmer chooses to grow.  Also due to the higher standards required there is a greater risk in growing food crops. Thus the higher price, but not always the higher profit. If end price were the main factor every farmer would move to Tasmania and grow truffles.

    • marley says:

      04:39pm | 03/08/11

      LV - my point was that I think it’s a bit misleading to criticize Australia’s high use of land for growing animals, when so much of the land isn’t useful for other crops.  It distorts the percentages.

      And yes, the cattle up there are grown for live sale to Indonesia.  I don’t have a problem with that, providing there are reasonably humane standards in place at the receiving end.  I believe they tried rice (and a lot of other crops) in the Kunnunura area, which is irrigated - but magpie geese got the rice and and insects got the other crops.  They’re placing their bets on sandalwood these days - and that’s a lot less useful as a source of protein than cattle are.

    • bog cog says:

      05:06pm | 03/08/11

      Libertarian vegetarian doesn’t understand that Bog Cog is a farmer and knows that LV is talking out of his/her rear end.

    • Widget says:

      05:09pm | 03/08/11

      @Shifter - animals are ‘non-sentient’? That’s absolute anti-science bullcrap. Sentient means having sense perceptions and being conscious. Animals may not be as smart as people (although I’ve met some people that would make me doubt that!), and they may not be self-conscious (at least, that’s still open to scientific debate) but you might want to look up the science on this one. Many, many animals, mammals, fish, birds - are very definitely sentient. Ask any of hundreds of animal researchers, neurologists, behaviouralists, and scientists of other disciplines who are working with or on animals in clinical situations around the world right now. Recent neurological science, in particular, is finding enormous volumes of evidence of animals’ sentience. The whole Cartesian “animals aren’t sentient’ thing is very much old hat and disproved theory. Sentience is not the sole province of the human.

    • Bolverk says:

      09:32pm | 03/08/11

      Why do so many people, on both sides of the debate, only talk in absolutes on this issue? I shoplifted a chocolate bar once, is that the same as stealing a pensioner’s life savings? I’ve accidentlly kicked a cat, is that the same as kicking every one I see? If I kill somebody in self defence, is that the same as gunning down 68 Norwegian teenagers? These are ridiculous comparisons, but hardly dissimilar to many comments here. Nobody can dispute the world as a whole would be better with a reduction in the cultivation of lifestock as food - it is proven to one of the greatest contributors to greenhouse emissions. Further, nobody could claim that treatment of animals has no scope for improvement. Instead of this divisive vitriol that polarises the debate leaving nobody satisfied, people should be applauded for any efforts they make to reduce their impact - whether that be supporting more humane slaughter practices, buying free-range eggs, or becoming vegetarian. Deriding an opponent’s viewpoint based largely on semantics alone is not good for anyone.

    • Wazza says:

      10:29pm | 03/08/11

      @LV, Majority on 1 grain that is a marginal grain at best. I used it to illustrate you lack of knowledge on the topic. Lupin crops accounted for 692,000 hectares compared to Wheat 13.9 million last year in Australia.
      Farming is a business and a farmer will do what he determines will net him the highest profit but they dont put all eggs in one basket. Lupin crops will hardly ever net the same that a wheat crop will, they are used as a rotation crop to break diseases in other crops.
      I can only smile at your attempts to lecture on farming
      Just like bog cog I grew up on a farm and then worked for CBH (a Grain handling facility for 4 years). Without going on to much about some of your other statements i think i understand farming a tad more than you ...
      Strike one with bog cog, Strike two with me!!

    • Barman says:

      07:46am | 03/08/11

      House of the Rising Sun has a lot to answer for after making the Animals so popular.

    • VVS says:

      08:39am | 03/08/11

      Brilliant…!

    • AFR says:

      09:23am | 03/08/11

      Thanks Barman - now i’m going to find myself singing that song all day in the office.

    • Margarita says:

      07:49am | 03/08/11

      Animal rights activists need to remember people are creatures too. Still waiting for the same outrage towards the Somali famine or treatment of asylum seekers they reserve for ill-treated cattle or hungry pets. Love of all living things? Yeah, right.

    • Michelle says:

      10:28am | 03/08/11

      People have a voice!  Animals don’t.  I will continue to fight for the rights of animals as they have absolutely no chance to speak out!

    • Ben C says:

      10:40am | 03/08/11

      Good for you Michelle. Just make sure you check your facts before you make a comment, unlike some of the more prominent activists.

    • CurtConnors says:

      11:26am | 03/08/11

      Of course, you’re using a blanket statement there; many of us who support animals rights are also humanists, and offering what help we can, where we can. You seem to be thinking that if you’re for one cause, you cannot be for another.

    • Jay76 says:

      11:30am | 03/08/11

      This is a silly comment, though it does highlight the fact that, whether conciously or not, humans are unable to completely care for their own, much less other species.

    • Jay76 says:

      11:35am | 03/08/11

      We produce more meat than is neccesary. That livestock requires crazy amounts of grain to produce. Wouldn’t it be better to ‘spend’ that food on people?

      Reduce the over-production of meat, and use the excess grain to feed people.Vegetarians seem to be hitting 2 birds with one stone (no animal-cruelty pun intended).

    • Tina says:

      01:07pm | 03/08/11

      @ Michelle

      Are you telling me a Somalian in a refugee camp has a voice?

    • TChong says:

      07:58am | 03/08/11

      If African Americans can be under the burden of “PTSS” from an institution that dissapeared in 1865, then it is a big possability that many other groups also suffer from some type of post traumatic syndrome.
      An open door for historically victimised groups to voice their concerns ?,
      or more people claiming some type of special victimhood status ( and excuses) for something thats long gone, and irrevalant to the 21st century ?

    • Fiddler says:

      08:54am | 03/08/11

      Yes, I feel PTRS because one of my ancestors was a ranga and was teased mercilessly for it. I demand and apology and special status and I think I want an honorary PhD in Ranga Studies, maybe tenure as a professor even

    • fml says:

      09:53am | 03/08/11

      I didnt know ranga’s were plucked out of their natural environment, stripped naked, forced to sail across the oceans on over crowded ships only to be forced to pick cotton, then lynched?

      What part of history was this?

    • MadKat of Melbourne says:

      12:47pm | 03/08/11

      @ fml - get over yourself - Fiddler was only making a joke -

    • fml says:

      01:20pm | 03/08/11

      Well as much as i appreciate a joke trivialising slavery and genocide, how does one get over oneself exactly?

      Its like one cant appreciate the gravity of historical events anymore, its just a joke after all.

    • Fiddler says:

      02:19pm | 03/08/11

      @FML, the point is simple. You weren’t there, I wasn’t there, no-one who was is still alive. Simply shows that life is that good some ppl have to make up bullshit to justify their negative outlook on life and feel like victims.
      They deserve to be mocked

    • ILR says:

      02:22pm | 03/08/11

      It’s a matter of how far back you wish to travel fml.

    • Brett says:

      02:26pm | 03/08/11

      @fml - Have you seen Africa? If I was an African American living in the USA I would be thanking my lucky stars that my ancestor was sold into slavery by his power hungry chief.

      My ancestor was jailed for a trivial crime and deported to a land where he had about a 50% chance of survival with starvation rations and the natives throwing spears at him, and he came by a crowded boat too. You know what, I thank my lucky stars about that, as I get to live in Australia thanks to him. And he was given a chance at a better life eventually, or at least his decendants were, like African Americans…

    • MadKat of Melbourne says:

      02:27pm | 03/08/11

      @fml - a distinction here - I can appreciate the gravity of historical events to the people that they happened to - not to descendants 150 years later claiming post traumatic stress syndrome from the actual events - Fiddler’s joke made light of the descendents claiming victimhood status 150 years later not the actual slaves themselves -

    • Historian says:

      04:17pm | 03/08/11

      @ fml. Ever heard of Irish Australians sent out as convicts. Many of them were Rangas.

    • KylieIsQueen says:

      08:00am | 03/08/11

      Wow, no surprises here as to the ignorant and aggressive comments. People who have no empathy towards animals (which most people here - MOST, not all) don’t appear to have, are nothing short of monsters. It’s a well-known FACT that serial murderers start off torturing animals before moving on to torturing and killing humans.
      So what does that say about most of you? God, these comments just make me feel even more pity for the human race.  We have so much potential and it’s more often than not so wasted.
      Oh by the way, that moronic PETA joke (People Eating Tasty Animals) is so old. Find some new material.
      By the way, animals (sharks, crocs, etc) don’t kill people just for the sake of it like humans do.  They kill for NECESSARY food or if they feel they’re in danger.  I don’t remember the last time I felt like I was going to be pecked to death by a fricken chicken.

    • AndrewK says:

      08:37am | 03/08/11

      No, but I do get hungry once in a while, and eat one out of necessity.

      Kylie, the majority of people commenting aren’t lacking in empathy towards animals. I think you’d be hard pressed to find someone who condoned the torture of animals the way that serial killers do (and no, eating animals doesn’t count), but by the same token, the majority of posters are rejecting the ridiculous notion that animals and humans are in any way equal.

    • Ed says:

      08:41am | 03/08/11

      Re-read your own comment to understand why you have no friends… wink

    • Andy D says:

      08:47am | 03/08/11

      This is exactly the kind of extremist hateful bile that turns me away from Animal Activism.

      Likening those who eat meat to serial killers is sophomoric bullshit that marks you as an uninformed idiot.

      I am a believer in animal welfare but I can’t join any of the advocacy groups because they are filled with barrow pushing hate-filled morons who want to force their ideology on society.

    • marley says:

      08:48am | 03/08/11

      Nice.  You are a good example of why animal activists get a bad rep - hostile, judgemental, and factually wrong.  Animals do in fact fight and kill one another for reasons other than food or self-preservation. 

      And it may have escaped your notice, but an awful lot of people eat animals for, you guessed it, food.  We’re not natural herbivores, we’re omnivores - and meat is a natural and valid part of the human diet. 

      And it is drawing a long bow indeed to link people who eat meat with serial killers.  Should I make the case that vegetarians will develop into mass murderers because Hitler did?  Oh, and if we’re going to talk about empathy towards animals, where is PETA’s?  Their euthenasia rate is around 90% - that’s higher than just about any so-called animal shelter organization around.

    • Phil says:

      08:55am | 03/08/11

      Im pretty sure that most people (the real people the ones who eat meat) would agree that the life, death and processing of an animal should be done as cleanly and efficiently with the least amount of stress and pain inflicted on the animal as possible.
      Sadly this isnt always the case, then trying to blame the consumers of this meat for the way it was treated is a silly thing to do.
      Anyone with half a brain (a fully developed one from eating meat) can see that given the population of the world and the amount of food required, not every cow or chicken can have a large amount of space to run around in.
      Its also the same “extra” land that could be used for farming of other things to go with that delicious meat you’re cooking, more meat or maybe something greener (mint for mint sauce?)
      But more seriously we’d need a lot better control of the population of the world before we could make any serious changes to the way a lot of meat is produced and processed.

      Being at the top of the food chain lets us do as we please, get over it.
      I do lol at your stupid serial killer link to all of this, I mean seriously?

    • Bec says:

      09:24am | 03/08/11

      I eat animals out of necessity. If I didn’t, the only things I could eat on my medically prescribed diet would be avocados and coconuts. Meat is not only delicious but vital: we need the vitamins and saturated fat. It just so happens that it fits neatly intoy own ethical framework too.

    • neil says:

      10:20am | 03/08/11

      Kylie you’re an idiot.

    • Ando says:

      10:26am | 03/08/11

      Speaking of ignorant and aggressive comments add self righteous and judgmental and you’ve described your post perfectly.

    • LC says:

      11:15am | 03/08/11

      “It’s a well-known FACT that serial murderers start off torturing animals before moving on to torturing and killing humans”

      Animal farming for food =/= the level of cruelty demonstrated by serial killers who torture animals.

      There are rats in your strawman’s pants.

    • Osiris Fox says:

      11:15am | 03/08/11

      Love the fact that that she includes “isQueen” in her name. Clearly this leans toward fantasizing about the suppression and ruling over people which goes directly against the “everything is equal mentality”. Now hand me a ham sammich.

    • Tom says:

      11:33am | 03/08/11

      KylieIsQueen (sarah Bath?), good trolling. Sucked a few in.

    • Sez says:

      12:10pm | 03/08/11

      Kylie, I love it how you can voice what is clearly an opposing view and it is decried as being “judgmental” and “self righteous” by the very people who possess these traits in bucketloads.

      I have no idea why people care about a veg*n’s decision not to eat meat.  If you feel that this is “judgmental” then maybe the problem lies with you?

    • marley says:

      01:23pm | 03/08/11

      @Sez - re-read Kylie’s comment - especially the line “So what does that say about most of you?”  She is accusing people of having no empathy with animals when some of us simply disagree with her take on things;  she is linking eating meat with serial killers;  she is calling people who disagree with her, “ignorant and aggressive.” 

      So tell me again, who is being judgemental?  I have no problem if you or anyone else wants to be a vegan - that’s your personal choice.  I do have a problem though, when you refuse to show a like respect for my choices.

    • Stephen says:

      01:53pm | 03/08/11

      Total agree. There’s nothing like an animal rights article to bring the ignorant rednecks out of the woodwork. The same old cliches. The same unoriginal and failed arguments. The same aggressive defensiveness. Kind of funny and sad at the same time.

    • Rev says:

      02:04pm | 03/08/11

      Does the ’ * ’ in veg*n mean you can eat steak for breakfast?  If so I am in.

    • Ruby says:

      05:02pm | 03/08/11

      This sort of aggressive attitude towards animal rights activists, vegetarians, vegans etc is common among insecure individuals. There are two types of omnivores. One type has respect for other people for their decision to take a stand for animals rights, and the other type feels threatened by it. It makes them uncomfortable and they don’t want to change their lifestyles, so they feel the need to attack, degrade and discredit people who care so they have an excuse not to care.

    • john taylor says:

      03:08pm | 04/08/11

      He Kylie - I am sure there are a bunch of sheep graziers who can show you what a couple of dogs or a fox can do in a lambing pasture - they kill for the heck of it, not to eat.  Also, when I shoot a feral animal like a goat, pig, rabbit etc - it aint for fun.  I eat it.

      Yes, serial killers have track records with torturing animals - doing really nasty bloodlusting things to them that would shame an SS Guard.  But someone who eats meat is not a torturer, nor is a hunter.  Yes, it is a well known fact BUT taking your argument to the logical end, if we who eat animals or hunt are thereby torturers, how is it that none of us that I can discern are serial killers?  Don’t you think the murder rates would be through the roof?  Riddle me that one, Batman.

    • HeatherG says:

      04:43pm | 05/08/11

      “I don’t remember the last time I felt like I was going to be pecked to death by a fricken chicken.”

      Clearly you’ve never kept any. I have. Geeeebus, those peckers are rabid when they want to be!

      (And, no, I’m not joking).

    • Joan says:

      08:03am | 03/08/11

      Yeah, the world`s an unfair place more for some, than others- be they animal or human.  Some human beings live in overindulgence others are made slaves- others die of famine,  others break their backs growing organic rice - staples coffee etc.  for the fancy pantsy city vegans. Having said that it is good to stick up for animals and cruelty is not acceptable. I guess it all comes down to definition of cruelty. Is it cruel to have human beings doing back breaking work in rice paddy fields working for a piitance to feed a fancy pantsy vegan in Australia while some animals are hand fed and looked after in a quality zoo.Unless you grow your own - someone along the way is struggling and suffering to get it to you.

    • Tim says:

      08:05am | 03/08/11

      The problem is that a lot of these organisations are trying to use the issue of animal cruelty to achieve their true goal of not using animals at all.
      And surely you can’t disagree that a lot of these activists have never set foot on a farm in their lives?
      Sometimes their ignorance is astounding.

    • Ruby says:

      06:04pm | 03/08/11

      How would you know they’ve never set foot on a farm? Fairly meaningless argument.

    • Ella says:

      12:21pm | 04/08/11

      I wouldn’t assume. I’m an animal rights activist, I’m 13 years old, and I’ve been on tons of farms. I’m pretty sure that you are the ignorant one in that stance of animal rights.

    • Ruby says:

      10:06am | 05/08/11

      And I am an animal rights activist and grew up on (and own) a farm…

    • pleasure o'reilly says:

      08:06am | 03/08/11

      Very interesting. now I’m hungry for sea kittens….

    • Loren says:

      08:08am | 03/08/11

      For those of you without compassion for the suffering of innocent creatures; or thought as to the long-term impact of animal proteins on your own bodies - you’ll receive exactly what you have coming. We just don’t want the needless suffering and demise of our planet in the hands of thoughtless idiots!

    • VVS says:

      08:44am | 03/08/11

      What is coming…? Should I go home and close the windows…?

    • Barry says:

      08:44am | 03/08/11

      @Loren
      Ok, well then I’m guessing you support the culling of Elephants, due to the large amount of environmental damage they cause once their herds increase in number?

    • Bec says:

      09:06am | 03/08/11

      What are you going to do? Release the dogs? Or the bees? Or the dogs with bees in their mouths so when they bark they chew bees at you???

    • bella starkey says:

      09:34am | 03/08/11

      @VVS Lie down and put a paper bag over your head.

    • John the Zombie says:

      01:18pm | 03/08/11

      Loren the fact that my mouth has canines in it show we were evolved to eat meant. Now you are not sure about your canines. Go to the mirror open you mouth and do you see those two very sharp teeth. They are your canines. The purpose of these is to rip meat.

      I have compassion for animals so trying to make out that just becasue I eat meat I dont is low from your end. Also I ask you this. What should I feed my dog. He requires meat in his dailt diet as well. Should I just give him vegies and hope from them he gets all the nutrition needs he requires.

      I love ppl like you Loren. Here is a question name me two religions that advoctae eating vegaterian food? Food for thought

    • Steve Perry says:

      01:29pm | 03/08/11

      @ Loren -

      Just wanted to ask a question…

      After thousands upon thousands of years of human existence, with the total population of human existance being in the 10’s of billions, what exactly is the long-term impact animal proteins are doing to our bodies..? If you have any peer reviewed material handy that you can reference, that would be great…

    • Brett says:

      02:36pm | 03/08/11

      Loren you do know that current theory says that the eating of meat was what first evolved us and increased our brain size. A modern human CANNOT consume enough raw fruit and veg in a day (note no grains) to sustain life, we are no longer built for it. Apes eat and chew all day long, they have too. We can eat less because we eat higher quality food, meat and grains for protein and carbs.

      This theory was recently tested in a pilot study in England and proven. More research will most likely prove it to be fact. Animal proteins do not hurt us, they help us grow… that is a FACT

    • James In Footscray says:

      06:10pm | 03/08/11

      @ John the Zombie, yes, we have canines. Also men have hair on their bodies so they can walk around naked without getting cold. Perhaps, though, the whole point of civilisation is we can change what we do? We can actually decide that eating animals is cruel and unnecessary, and choose to stop? Cheers

    • Nick Pendergrast says:

      07:15pm | 03/08/11

      @John the Zombie: our teeth mean that we CAN eat meat, not that we SHOULD. People are capable of doing all kinds of horrible things, doesn’t mean that we should be doing all of these things.

      Regarding being compassionate to animals. We have absolutely no need to consume animal products and there are health benefits to taking them out of your diet:

      http://www.eatright.org/About/Content.aspx?id=8357

      http://thechinastudy.com/

      So how are you being compassionate to animals by contributing to their death, just because you enjoy the taste?

      It is also very easy to make your dog vegan, as long as you feed them a complete vegan dog food and feed them other vegan foods they enjoy along with the complete food:

      http://veganpet.com.au/articles/?page_id=8

    • bec says:

      08:01pm | 03/08/11

      Oh, lol. The China study was the most faily, cherry-picked, unscientific piece of crap - well, after Ancel Keys’ lipid hypothesis. Fail. You’d be hard-pressed to find a society who has not had to rely upon animal fat or protein to thrive - not just survive, but thrive.

    • Bolverk says:

      10:04pm | 03/08/11

      @John The Zombie: The doctrines of Seventh Day Adventist Christians and Mahayana Buddhists both advocate vegetarian diets.

    • Nick Pendergrast says:

      06:53pm | 04/08/11

      @bec - I don’t see why it is relevant if other societies have survived/thrived/or whatever else on animal products or plant-based foods. The relevant point is that there are many people thriving without animal products in our own society:

      http://www.treehugger.uproar.org.au/jennifer-heyes/

      So if we can thrive without animal products in our society, why are we eating them?

    • NSW says:

      08:13am | 03/08/11

      I only eat eggs from tortured chickens. They taste better.

    • baal says:

      08:23am | 03/08/11

      I have defeated these idealouges into the ground many times but they do not listen.
      So people just say these ‘I am a benevolent speciest’. It is below low to compare african and slave suffering to farm animlas or in PETA’s case my kitten currently asleep on my couch after being fed by by brown skinned children.
      I am a benevolent speciest.

    • Dave says:

      08:41am | 03/08/11

      Awwwwwwwwwwww…....! smile

    • Matt says:

      08:24am | 03/08/11

      While I agree that animals should be looked after and the activists do a community service in highlighting some of the horrible treatment some animals are subjected to, I do not compare animals with humans.  They are not human.  They need to be protected, treated with respect, but they also need to be eaten.  There is no way an animal should be compared or treated like a human.  Even if we are eating them, there’s no need to be cruel in ending their lives.

      PETA should clean up their own act before dictating how everyone else should live.  Each year they destroy 100,000’s of animals that they ‘can’t afford to feed’ at their adoption centres.  Perhaps they should spend their time more wisely in helping the animals they have before trying to turn the world vegetarian - something that will never happen.

    • bled says:

      05:31pm | 03/08/11

      Humans are animals. People need to remember that.

    • Ruby says:

      06:29pm | 03/08/11

      They do not ‘need’ to be killed. Humans can easily survive without meat. While some people’s circumstances may result in them needing to kill animals to survive (e.g. a fisherman in a poor country), most people don’t need to consume the sheer amount that we do, or any at all. In my current circumstances I don’t need meat to be survive, be healthy, or even to satisfy my taste buds. So I don’t feel that hundreds of animals should die each year for me to eat them.

      Also, your complaint about the 100,000 humanely killed animals by PETA is fairly insignificant when put up against the 150 billion animals tortured and slaughtered each year, many to keep obese people satisfied in fast food joints. Not a good argument.

      Aggressiveness towards people who care about animal rights is a problem. It is unnecessary and unfair - I think the majority of them mean well and are not aggressive, pushy or nutcases. People who are like that are just the ones that you notice.

    • marley says:

      07:06pm | 03/08/11

      @Ruby - PETA kills 90% of the animals in its care.  That’s not a lot better than your average beef farmer, and a lot worse than your average sheep or dairy farmer.

    • Matt says:

      08:26am | 04/08/11

      bled, that’s a bit obvious isn’t it?

      Ruby, they ‘do’ need to be killed to be eaten.  Humans may survive without meat, but we don’t have to.  My PETA argument is perfectly valid - yours isn’t as fast food ‘joints’ don’t pretend to champion the animals, whereas PETA does while killing their own.  They are hypocrites, fast food joints aren’t.

    • Erick says:

      08:38am | 03/08/11

      If animals are equal to humans, does that mean humans ought to be able to marry animals?

    • Jester says:

      09:04am | 03/08/11

      Feminist animals?

    • Erick says:

      09:16am | 03/08/11

      Following this line of thought - if animals have human rights, should animals who kill other animals be arrested and charged with murder?

    • adam says:

      09:47am | 03/08/11

      only the sexy ones Erick, only the sexy ones

    • MarK says:

      09:56am | 03/08/11

      Only same sex animal partners should be given the marriage right.

    • wakeuppls says:

      11:28am | 03/08/11

      Cue South Park’s PETA episode. Hiariously apt.

    • OchreBunyip says:

      11:30am | 03/08/11

      I see a voting block opportunity in the next federal election; imagine of a party could capture even a portion of the chicken vote.

    • Anna C says:

      08:40am | 03/08/11

      Animal Rights activitist groups like PETA should stop using naked ladies to sell their cause. It doesn’t help their cause and is extremely sexist.

      Also following the beef exports ban to Indonesia, many low paid abattoir workers lost their jobs and were being shunned by their families and communities. Whilst I care about the treatment of animals; if it is a toss up between the rights of animals and the rights of humans, then I pick humans every time. I don’t think it is right for us as wealthy westerners living here in comfortable Australia to be dictating to poor Indonesians.

    • Scott says:

      09:05am | 03/08/11

      So immoral industries shouldnt be shut down because people will lose their jobs?

    • Ian says:

      09:09am | 03/08/11

      But that’s the only good thing about PETA

    • Anna C says:

      10:14am | 03/08/11

      So what are you saying Scott, that it’s alright for poor Indonesian’s to starve?

    • Dazeddazza says:

      10:48am | 03/08/11

      The naked lady in the ad is beautiful.  Sexist?  Maybe but bloody delightful.  Much better than pictures of elephants.

    • marley says:

      03:08pm | 03/08/11

      Why is it more immoral for Indonesia abattoir workers to butcher cattle for food, than for PETA to euthanize perfectly healthy dogs and cats for no purpose at all?

    • Linda says:

      08:41am | 03/08/11

      Luckily with climate change and peak oil about to kick in, this debate won’t be necessary as the meat/ivestock/dairy industries will collapse. Anyone who has bothered to keep up with economic forecasts and leading reports will know this. In vitro meat will, of course, be the solution to the meat crisis. I wonder how many savv investors are going to get in at the ground level now and make a killing economically speaking in the next few decades. As for people fighting for animals, I think you’ll find those same people fighting for a lot of human interests. Given that 2.2million Australians are diagnosed with heart disease every year, and 46000 Australians die of heart disease every year, and most heart disease is caused by high cholesterol, and the only source of dietary cholesterol is animal product, anyone advocating for zero animal product consumption is also advocating for zero heart disease in humans. Heart disease is 100% preventable. Ask any doctor. Imagine the hospital beds freed up, the doctors and nurses we won’t need if there was no heart disease. 70% greenhouse gases are caused by the livestock industry. We could stop climate change immediately by axing livestock industries. It takes 5kg of grain to make 1 kilo beef. 50000 litres of water per 1 kilo beef. What a waste. We’d have zero world hunger if grain was utilised effectively and fed straight to humans instead of the inefficient conversion through animals. Most of the wild fish caught are fed to cattle as fish meal. How is this efficient? Again - waste waste waste. So when animal activists are fighting for animals, they are directly fighting for humans - albeit ignorant humans.

    • Bec says:

      09:16am | 03/08/11

      Well, there’s your problem. Those environmental figures are predicated on the need to grow feed grain - a food source eminently unsuitable for cows. Return crop land to grazing animals and you will see an improvement.

    • TinF says:

      09:54am | 03/08/11

      Stop climate change by axing the livestock industry? I think the history of Earth disagrees with you.

      Ignorant humans indeed…

    • Barry says:

      09:54am | 03/08/11

      @Linda “70% of greenhouse gases are caused by the livestock industry.  We could stop climate change immediately by axing livestock industries. Heart disease is 100% preventable”  I read these three statements and smacked my face with my palm every time.  The word ignorant is very appropriate in this scenario.  You have no idea what you are talking about.  Use google it will aid you in the search for not embarrassing yourself.  70% of greenhouse gases.  What a joke.  This is what occurs when you get your information from misinformed animal rights websites.

    • LC says:

      09:59am | 03/08/11

      “As for people fighting for animals, I think you’ll find those same people fighting for a lot of human interests.”
      Except those with type-1 diabetes.
      Except those with cancer.
      Except those with anything which can be cured through research on animals.
      Except those who conduct the research.
      Except those who enjoy hunting.
      Except most of those who have anything to do with animals at all.

      “In vitro meat will, of course, be the solution to the meat crisis”
      In vitro meat currently lacks the texture and structure of real meat. You can create mince meat with it, but you won’t be able to re-create steak wih it. So in the future, maybe it will replace farming, but that’s not going to happen anytime soon.

      “Heart disease is 100% preventable.”
      While moderation of diet can reduce the chances of heart disease, if it’s genetic, then it’s inevitable.

      “Takes 5kg of grain to make 1 kilo beef.”
      None of which is fit for human consumption. Oh, and there’s always the option of GRASSFED beef…

      “50000 litres of water per 1 kilo beef”
      All of which goes right through back the water cycle. None of it disappears, none of it is wasted.

      “70% greenhouse gases are caused by the livestock industry.”
      No. The figure is closer to 20%.

      “We could stop climate change immediately by axing livestock industries.”
      No. If there is effects on the enviroment (assuming AGW is occuring) it can be fixed through more sustainable farming practices.

      “Most of the wild fish caught are fed to cattle as fish meal.”
      What absolute bullshit.

      Look, I don’t care about what dietary choices you make, but for f***‘s sake, don’t preach it as the ONLY way which one can live.

    • Ben C says:

      10:22am | 03/08/11

      You don’t need a medicine degree to know that your comment about heart disease is blatantly wrong. Lifestyle can only be attributed to some cases, not all. You could lead a vegan lifestyle, exercise regularly and still die of a heart attack. It’s in your genes.

    • Anna C says:

      10:41am | 03/08/11

      Call me paranoid but its increasingly starting to look like animal rights groups and climate change scientists are conspiring to turn us all into VEGETARIANS???? Hmmmmm very interesting.

    • neil says:

      10:43am | 03/08/11

      Linda there are a few things that we can be absolutely sure of, in a hundred years from now. People will still be burning coal for power, driving cars that run on petrol, drinking clean fresh water and eating meat from farmed animals.

      Nothing is going to change because nothing has to, we have 300-700 years worth of coal, 200-300 years of oil and there is exactly the same amount of water on the planet as there was a billion years ago. As the human population and it’s support mechanisms increase other species decline and the biosystem stays in balance.

      Move along, nothing to see here.

    • Lizzie says:

      01:13pm | 03/08/11

      I have quite a bit of sympathy for the vegan position, and indeed was a vegan for a number of years myself.  For the sake of my vegan friends however, I feel compelled to point out that a vegan lifestyle is not a free pass to a healthy heart.  Saturated and trans fats have a FAR greater impact on cholesterol and cardiovascular health than dietary cholesterol.  Dietary cholesterol actually has a very small effect as it triggers our body to reduce production of our own cholesterol. Trans fats are found in many processed products that would qualify as vegan and they occur as the result of partially hydrogenating vegetable oils.  Palm oil and coconuts are also vegan and high in saturated fat.
      Stress and sedentary lifestyle are also major contributors.
      My point?  It’s more than possible to be a vegan and develop high cholesterol - I managed it!  So my message to all the vegans out there is don’t get complacent about the health of your heart - you still need to keep an eye on your cholesterol levels etcetera.

    • Lobo says:

      08:44am | 03/08/11

      It’s incredible the lengths that some people will go to justify their carnism. When people talk about animal rights, the only right they are asking for them is to let them be and not be bred into slavery. We have a huge environmental problem because of livestock and people on this thread just don’t seem to get it.

    • Carolyn says:

      08:46am | 03/08/11

      Thanks for another excellent article, Katrina!

      The comments on this article, thus far, certainly seem to be evidence of the validity of this statement:

      “Attempts to silence or deride animal activists are a reaction to them making us feel uncomfortable about being called to account over our sanctioning of animal exploitation. They tap into a deep-seated guilt about our complicity in contributing to animal suffering for our own gain, and invoke anger at the idea that we need to drastically change our consumption habits to avoid being part of a system that has cruelty at its core.”

      Very well written!

    • Kurisu Sonsaku says:

      09:08am | 03/08/11

      @ Carolyn, so how do you reconcile peta killing over 90% of the animals sent to them

      “In 2009, PETA euthanized 2,301 dogs and cats—97 percent of those brought in—and adopted only eight, according to Virginia state figures”.

    • Tim says:

      09:34am | 03/08/11

      See, only vegetarians think that others must have some kind of deep-seated guilt from eating animals just because they do.
      Simple projection of their own fears and beliefs onto others.

      I have no problem with killing animals for my food.

    • Marcus says:

      11:30am | 03/08/11

      Tim, above:

      But how many of them are you killing *yourself*? Would you still feel comfortable eating a steak if you’d had to first cut the cow’s throat, let it bleed out over your yard or driveway, then spend an hour or two cutting away the meat from the bone, removing the organs and offal, etc. Did I mention the cow will probably be struggling with you? Oh, and you’ll have to remove the parts you don’t want, like the head, etc.

      But I’m guessing you don’t do this, you just have no problem “killing” animals for food when the killing is done by someone else, where you don’t have to watch it.

    • OchreBunyip says:

      11:38am | 03/08/11

      it is a weak argument that attributes emotions to people the author hasn’t even met. The underlying fallacy is, after declaring people are emotional with no proof, the corollary is therefore they must really agree with the author.  If this is the quality of debate that you believe is effective then it is going to be a long fight to gain any respect.

    • Bilby says:

      11:44am | 03/08/11

      Spot on Marcus. We live in a highly advanced, specialised society. The farmer or the abattoir worker no more wants to do my job than I want to do theirs.  We each benefit from the other’s contribution. No problem.

    • Tim says:

      12:17pm | 03/08/11

      Yes Marcus,
      I would have no problem doing that but I don’t out of convienience.

      Do you mill all your own grains and grow all your own vegetables?
      Kill all the rodents and vermin around your foodstuffs?

      I’m guessing you don’t, you just have no problem with other people doing it for you right?

    • Ben C says:

      12:20pm | 03/08/11

      @ Marcus

      Harden up princess, go live on a farm.

      We had chooks in our backyard (suburban Sydney) - originally for laying eggs, but that plan went belly-up when we realised they were all roosters. Oh well, raise them as free-range chickens to be eaten when they get to a decent size. When the time came, we were all in the kitchen, with my parents teaching me and my sister how to do it without any machinery at all, just a knife.

    • bec says:

      08:06pm | 03/08/11

      Marcus, I have killed, skinned and eaten my own food - fish and rabbits. Living in a city with a very busy full-time job, I obviously don’t have the convenience to do my own hunting anymore, but I certainly don’t see any ethical dilemma with it.

    • Scott says:

      09:00am | 03/08/11

      In response to the two very common arguments against vegetariansism that have been expressed here - that agriculture is bad for the environment and that we should worry about humans first.

      1. Most meat is fed grain. Each kg of meat obviously requires many kgs of grain. The grain has to be farmed so you have that environmental damage plus the huge damage that livestoock does.

      2. There are millions of people starving to death yet we use enormous quantities of food (often from the very countries were people are starving to feed animals).

    • LC says:

      11:24am | 10/08/11

      Agriculture in and of itself IS bad for the enviroment. It needs large amounts of fertile land, which usually has forest growing on it and must be cleared. It’s worse now with the poliferation of pesticides and chemical fertilizers.
      By consuming these products you are complicit in the damage that does to the enviroment.
      Don’t get me started on all the insects and cute little furry rodents that are killed in the process of vegetable/fruit/grain farming.

      None of the grains fed to animals is fit for human consumption.
      And no, the grains do not come from Africa.
      And no, the grains do not come from Africa.
      And no, the grains do not come from Africa.
      (I read somewhere that reading something 3 times makes it more likely to stick)
      It’s grown right here in our own backyard by wheat farmers, a combination of standard grains unfit for human consumption (eg weather-damaged) and lupins which are planted for rotation purposes, and fetch less money than grains grown for human consumption.
      And hey, you can always buy grassfed/free range meats.

      “Worrying about humans first” is a pretty basic instict to preserve our speices. All animals demonstrate similar behaviour.

    • cybacaT says:

      09:12am | 03/08/11

      Girls go vegan and animal-lubber-extremist to impress their friends.  Guys do to impress those girls.  Once they’re hooked up and married, all this nonsense become irrelevant.

    • Sarah says:

      10:55pm | 03/08/11

      hahaha! Since when has anyone been impressed by veganism?!!! I grew up in Queensland where I was outcasted when I went vegetarian! As for vegan, people thought I was crazy! That you believe it has the ability to impress is somewhat flattering, but contradicts my life experiences of the past decade and a half.

    • Ray says:

      09:14am | 03/08/11

      What kind of animal is that on the right of the accompanying photo. Gets my vote for a pet ‘squirrel’ and equality.  No wonder animals get treated so well. I’ve got a pet ‘pussy’ but it definitely sleeps outside.

      Above all with pets like that I’ll agree with what ever is being proposed. I once had a pet like that and you’ve now rekindled me to a deeply disturbed blithering idiot who can’t tell a pussy from a cat, although I have eaten a squirrel, which sure activated aforesaid ‘pet’

    • Amy says:

      09:24am | 03/08/11

      Awesome article Katrina! As per usual, much like my colleagues or family, the meat-eaters are immediately throwing the defenses up. Let them though, and continue doing what’s right in your heart (and mine!) smile

    • Michelle says:

      10:29am | 03/08/11

      Totally agree, Amy!

    • Brad says:

      09:26am | 03/08/11

      ...but animals are so tasty…, especially those little lambs… I would dearly love to try dolphin ... I’ve heard they are delicious!

    • adam says:

      10:35am | 03/08/11

      Dolphin tastes like Cape Barron Goose

    • Bilby says:

      11:10am | 03/08/11

      adam - Dolphin tastes more like fairy penguin I reckon. If you really want a treat though, get your hands on some North Atlantic Right Whale with slivers of bacon. Endangered local bacon of course, because I reckon it’s actually better than the imported stuff.

    • peter says:

      11:29pm | 03/08/11

      Go ahead Brad, there’s a whole bunch just off the WA coast.  my guess is you’re too gutless to get close enough to something that might bite back.

    • Tim says:

      09:32am | 03/08/11

      The only good thing I can say about PETA is I approve of the use of naked ladies in their advertising.
      It’s not going to stop me eating meat but I like it.
      How hot is Olivia Munn.

    • Nicole C says:

      09:44am | 03/08/11

      I find these arguments all too often when I discuss eating meat. People get so defensive about it. I am a vegetarian and raraly question people’s choice to eat meat just as I expect the same respect and not have people question my choice not too.

      What I do often question, and this goes for both vegetarians and meat eaters, is the production process of the food we have on our table. Mass production and consumption of food is not ethical and is often exploitative of both the non-human and human animals involved in the process. E Coli is rampant, animals are treated poorly, fed hormones and are mass produced for slaughter. And at the other end of the ‘food chain’ (more appropriately the ‘production line’) we often have no idea where the food on our table originated.

      It upsets me when you not only question why I don’t eat meat but you then choose to mock the death and mistreatment of non-human animals and their slaughter and the fact that I care about this.

      This is a discussion that needs ot be had but until vegetarians and animal activists stop condemning those who choose to eat meat and until we are given the same courtesy, these issues will continue. The ethics of production is relevant to all of us.

      And, the argument about human starvation vs death of animals is one of the most stupid things I have heard. Nobody is asking you to pick or choose so stop creating this false reality where you have to purely for the sake of argument.

    • Ben C says:

      10:35am | 03/08/11

      @ Nicole C

      The underlying aim for these animal activist groups is to stop people from killing animals for all purposes - including food. They may not say so, but give them enough leash and they will push the agenda.

    • John the Zombie says:

      01:41pm | 03/08/11

      Nicole C if you read most the post on this site, which I have the most part is ppl actually responding to vegeterians who critise those who choose to eat meat. In alot of the comments the view from the vegens have been the point of calling meat eaters mass murders, pyshcotic killer and the like and deriding us to the point that if we meat we are scum.

      Myself I am happy if you choose not to eat meat. Where is it in my right to turn around and argue with you over it is your choice. Something I like to call free will, which we all have.

      For me to decry ppl for not eating meat for me is like attacking those of my religious group Sikhs who get bapisted. As part of the baptism is that they choose not to eat meat but live a good vegaterian diet and living healthy with the world. On Sundays when I go to my temple all the meals there are vegaterian and I quiet enjoy them. When I go home to see my family we have a day once a week were we dont eat meat.

      It is good ppl have a choice in life on wether to eat meat or not and that is our choices. Ppl would not starve if we stopped eating meat but why should we take the choise away from ppl to eat meat.

    • RJB says:

      10:01am | 03/08/11

      So tired of being “challenged to shake up our thinking” by those who won’t alter their own.

    • Justin says:

      10:17am | 03/08/11

      I don’t get the naked protests. Don’t get me wrong, I’m always happy to see Olivia Munn naked, but if Geoff Russell nuded up…... urgh.

      To me it comes down to 2 things:

      1. Animals don’t have equal rights, evolution has seen to that. Of course we can make changes around the fringes, but the core of the situation will not change.

      2. You don’t win friends with salad.

    • peter says:

      11:26pm | 03/08/11

      If evolution has shown one thing, it’s that humans like yourself missed out on the comprehension gene. No-one is suggesting thatr animals have equal rights, only that as the self-appointed custodians of the planet, humans have a responsibility to treat all living things humanely. How can you argue against that? 

      Your second point shows that you really lack empathy and compassion.  To you this is seemingly a joke.

    • HeatherG says:

      05:04pm | 05/08/11

      @Peter: “No-one is suggesting thatr animals have equal rights,”

      well, no, actually that is exactly what PETA have been pushing, hence the issue.

      “only that as the self-appointed custodians of the planet, humans have a responsibility to treat all living things humanely. How can you argue against that?”

      Exactly—which is exactly how many farmers feel, too. PETA has a different agenda.

    • RyaN says:

      10:20am | 03/08/11

      Well I don’t see the RSPCA being treated badly, just you complete lunatics!

      Now I am off to get double beef cheese burger!

    • Shenanigans says:

      02:17pm | 03/08/11

      Don’t forget the bacon!!

    • IC-1101 says:

      10:26am | 03/08/11

      I’ll treat them like humans once they stop compromising the safety of humans in the face of protecting animals and the environment.  We’re not living on Pandora.  We do not speak to the trees and animals.  I wish we did, but we don’t.

    • Michelle says:

      10:33am | 03/08/11

      Katrina, thanks for your article.  Unfortunately, the majority of the comments prove your point.  People tend to get agressive, or just plain idiotic, when it comes to discussing animals rights.  My hope is that most just react this way because they feel remorse because they know how disgusting livestock production, animal experimentation etc is, but still choose to ignore it.  I fear though, that many, are just ignorant and can’t think beyond their next meal, which is probably a Big Mac or KFC!

    • IC-1101 says:

      10:42am | 03/08/11

      Acknowledging the rights and safety of animals and being critical of the extent to which animals activists will go are completely different things.  I don’t think people are critical of being in favour of humane food practices, but I can’t imagine anyone being in favour of certain tactics often employed by activists. 

      I do not hold the life of an animal above the safety of a human, but that does NOT equate to not having an interest in animal welfare.

      I think you and the author are more confused than anyone here.

    • Ben C says:

      10:46am | 03/08/11

      Think of this Michelle: you are suffering from some disease, and the only drug available to cure you is one that has been tested on animals. Should I just assume that you’ll reject teh drug and die?

    • Ben C says:

      10:55am | 03/08/11

      Also, should Kevin Rudd have rejected the cow’s valve that he received as replacement for his aortic valve?

    • Anna C says:

      11:00am | 03/08/11

      “I fear though, that many, are just ignorant and can’t think beyond their next meal, which is probably a Big Mac or KFC!”

      Oh my Michelle, aren’t we morally superior. Tell me Michelle what do you eat ... lentils? Just because you can’t hear vegetables screaming when you pull them out of the earth, doesn’t mean that they are not. Equal rights for vegetables I say.

    • Anna C says:

      11:12am | 03/08/11

      “Also, should Kevin Rudd have rejected the cow’s valve that he received as replacement for his aortic valve?”

      Julia Gillard would probably disagree with you there Ben.

    • Ben C says:

      11:29am | 03/08/11

      @ Anna C

      Haha, does anyone know if she even sent him a get well message?

    • Al says:

      11:45am | 03/08/11

      “My hope is that most just react this way because they feel remorse because they know how disgusting livestock production, animal experimentation etc is, but still choose to ignore it.”
      Nope, no remorse here, I am happy for animal experimentation to occur (particularly as I would be DEAD without it).
      As for livestock production, the process they go through is a lot kinder than the alternative or hunting (by humans or other animals), I know this as I have worked in an abottoir and have also been hunting, but I still have NO objection to hunting as long as you USE what you kill.
      I realy hate those who say they are vegan because they don’t want to kill, they still do.
      If they have a defendable reason for it (say a health issue) I say fine, but to try and push that view onto me REALY makes me angry. I don’t try and convert Vegans (even misguided ones) into eating meat, it’s their choice, why can’t they accept the same applies the other way rather than supporting terrorist organisations like PETA. And based on their actions PETA is a terrorist organisation.

    • peter says:

      10:09am | 04/08/11

      Well said, Michelle.  Unfortunately, the sociopathic tendencies of Al and others show how far we have to go to simply gain awareness and expnge the poisonous thoughts of those who would suggest they were superior beings. That animals die so that the likes of Al, Prince, BenC and others can live is one of the saddest aspects of the human race.

    • Greg McFarlane says:

      10:56am | 03/08/11

      We can all agree that it is wrong to inflict unnecessary suffering and death on animals.

      There may, of course, be disputes about what constitutes necessity but if this concept is to have any meaning whatsoever, it must rule out the imposition of suffering and death on animals for reasons of pleasure, amusement, or convenience.

      The overwhelming portion of our current animal use can only be justified by pleasure, amusement, or convenience.  In particular, the most numerically significant use of animals is for food.

      There is absolutely no necessity for this suffering and death.  We certainly do not need meat or animal products to live an optimally healthy life.  Indeed, mainstream health care professionals are increasingly of the view that animal products are detrimental to human health.  Animal agriculture is a disaster for the environment because it involves a most inefficient use of natural resources and creates water pollution, soil erosion, and greenhouse gasses.  The only justification that we have for the pain, suffering and death that we impose on these billions of animals is that we enjoy eating animal foods, or that it is convenient to do so, or that it is just plain habit.

    • Ben C says:

      11:16am | 03/08/11

      “We certainly do not need meat or animal products to live an optimally healthy life.”

      Try telling that to anyone in mining, construction, or sports. How will they build up the muscle mass that they need to do their jobs?

    • Mr T says:

      04:04pm | 03/08/11

      Ben C, ever heard of plant proteins? check out http://www.veganbodybuilding.com and the numerous similar sites. As the ignorant meat eaters love to point out, humans are omnivores, which means we can eat and process almost anything, we don’t need to eat meat, it’s a falacy perpetrated by meat eaters so that they can justify their killing of animals (because they are lazy or just don’t care) in their own minds.

      What really bugs me about the average joe moron though is that they use statements like ‘humans are part of nature and eating meat is natural so it must be ok’. What crap. We are the only species on the planet with a true moral sense, with the ability to know when something we are doing is wrong and should change, yet the vast majority simply choose to look the other way because they are too gutless to examine their own behaviour (it would mean they would have to admit they were doing something wrong, and we can’t have that can we), or they are too gutless to take a stand.

      But, like most people who believe animals should have rights, I’m wasting my time trying to explain morals or ethics to the essentially completely selfish, amoral society of today…

    • marley says:

      04:09pm | 03/08/11

      @Greg - from what I’ve read, your statement that “mainstream health care professionals are increasingly of the view that animal products are detrimental to human health” is a gross exaggeration of the current scientific view - which runs more along the lines that excessive amounts of red meat (not white meat or fish, or modest amounts of red meat) are just fine.  And some people, like the Inuit, actually require large amounts of animal products to be healthy.

    • libertarian vegetarian says:

      04:23pm | 03/08/11

      @Ben
      Try googling “vegan bodybuilding”. Or ask Carl Lewis. You know, worlds fastest man and all that. Or Martina Navratilova. Or the vegan MMA fighter Mac Danzac. Or Dave Scott, the iron man.

    • marley says:

      04:43pm | 03/08/11

      sorry - that should have read that excessive amounts of red meat are a problem, but modest amounts are just fine, as are chicken and fish.

    • Greg McFarlane says:

      07:57pm | 03/08/11

      @marley.  Perhaps moderate amounts of animals products are “fine”.  But that is not the point.  Animal products are unnecessary for a human to live a healthy life.  Therefore, it is ethically wrong to consume them, since to do so causes suffering and death to the animal.

    • bec says:

      08:11pm | 03/08/11

      Bullshit. I am on a ketogenic diet to prevent seizures. I *need* to consume 75-85% of my calories in the form of saturated fat, and I desperately need to limit carbohydrates to fewer than 30g per day. Do you know how hard that is to do while going keto? You are limited essentially to avocados (though technically they contain a few too many carbs) and coconuts, with a few green vegetables thrown in there too. How the hell am I meant to manage eating with only two available food products? How am I meant to get B, D, K and C vitamins without meat or animal products? How am I possibly going to get enough calories in a reasonable quantity of food?

      I refuse to graze for hours simply to satisfy the sanctimony of a pack of wankers. Meat is the most convenient and palatable source of vital saturated fat and protein, and I am never giving it up for my own health.

    • marley says:

      09:42pm | 03/08/11

      @Greg - you say that we don’t need to eat meat - and that therefore it is ethically wrong to do so.  Well, I don’t need to look at art or listen to music - is it ethically wrong for me to enjoy either?  Inuit don’t need to eat vegetables because they get, indeed need, to get their nutrients from meat sources - is it ethically wrong for them to eat carrots? 

      You are applying to this issue a definition of ethics which I do not accept as valid.  Whether something is necessary or not has no bearing on whether it is ethical or not.

    • peter says:

      11:20pm | 03/08/11

      Well said, Mr T.  Gutless, amoral and selfish are 3 words that most accurately describe the meatheads on this blog.

      i do note that bec suggests she “needs” meat for her survival.  That would make you genetically inferior, wouldn’t it bec?

    • marley says:

      08:59am | 04/08/11

      @Peter - “Gutless, amoral and selfish are 3 words that most accurately describe the meatheads on this blog. “

      And you wonder why Katrina had to write an article pleading for activists to be treated decently.  Your arrogance is pretty awesome, pal.

      So is your ignorance, by the way.  Bec says she needs to eat meat and you say that makes her genetically inferior.  Well, buddy, Inuit also need to eat meat - their rates of heart and kidney disease have shot through the roof since they stopped relying on seal and whale meat and fish as dietary staples.  Does that make them genetically inferior?  Should we invoke Godwin’s law, and eliminate them all, as that other well known vegetarian tried to do with genetically inferior Jews? 

      Perhaps you and PETA would get further with your arguments if you treated people who have different opinions with the same level of respect you demand for animals.

    • bec says:

      09:15am | 04/08/11

      Not genetically inferior - my health problems were largely caused by the nearly vegetarian diet I’d been on for most of my life. Sticking to a low-fat diet with “heart healthy grains” caused obesity, nearly constant myoclonic seizures, migraines and poor skin and hair. Six months out, every single one of those problems has been corrected.

      I’d say I’m probably living at a human’s genetic best right this second. You want to swap cholesterol test results? Can beat any vego’s in here right now.

    • peter says:

      09:53am | 04/08/11

      Marley,  I have good cause to be arrogant and to feel superior when reading your posts.  “Invoke Godwin’s Law”???  Are you kidding?  Do you have any idea what Godwins Law is?  Because it’s nothing to do with the context of your missive.

      As for respecting those who display no ethics, those who would fight us who only want an end to animal cruelty, those who would falsify any data, misuse any statistic and tell any lie in order to avoid behaving decently…. well no, I have no intention of respecting such people.  They are grubs of the lowest order.

      You want to avoid extremists?  Then speak out against the idiots who post crap on this blog about PETA, who use the sincerity of this article to talk about how delicious an egg from a tortured hen is.  You want respect pal?  Then earn it.

    • marley says:

      10:27am | 04/08/11

      @Peter - first, I do understand what Godwin’s law is, and it has rather a lot to do with my mention of the Holocaust, wouldn’t you say?  Or did you miss the allusion?

      Second, just because people aren’t vegan doesn’t mean they don’t believe in and support the humane treatment of animals.  You have chosen a particular approach to animal welfare, but, to state the blindingly obvious, it’s not the only approach. And it is both presumptuous and arrogant of you to assume that you have found the one true way, and that anyone who disagrees with you must be morally bereft.

      Third, show me where I’ve misrepresented anything in any statement I’ve made on this thread;  show me where I’ve displayed the complete disrespect for people with different views that you have;  show me why I’ve earned any of the epithets you’ve used to describe people such as myself.  I don’t like PETA and its tactics:  that doesn’t make me amoral, gutless, selfish, meat-headed or a grub. 

      This article is about respect all right - respect for animals, respect for animal activists, but also, respect for people. You’re coming up pretty short on that front.  If you can’t treat your fellow man ethically, I’ve got doubts about your ability to treat animals any better.

    • Ben says:

      10:57am | 03/08/11

      People are more important than animals. Animals are actually relatively unimportant in the scheme of things, except for their usage as food and the cute ones as pets.

    • MadKat of Melbourne says:

      11:28am | 03/08/11

      Ecologically speaking animals are very important beyond being a food source - you’ve made a very narrow and ill-informed statement -

    • Geostat says:

      02:58pm | 03/08/11

      I don’t think Ghengis Khan or Alexander the Great would have got too far without horses though

    • peter says:

      11:15pm | 03/08/11

      OK Ben, if animals are not important then you will have no objection to giving up meat and abstaining from all animal products.  I dare you. 

      FYI, the humble bee is more important than you.  Without humans, the planet would continue.  Without bees, most plants would not propogate. You would starve.

    • Al says:

      10:58am | 03/08/11

      No i don’t think they are dope smoking dole bludgers.
      At best I think they are misinformed.
      At worst they ARE criminals.
      Many organisations (particularly PETA) love to disguise there own hypocricy and agendas and ignore the facts. They propose that animals should have MORE rights than humans and support violent criminal action against legitimate organisations even when they perform the same acts (or worse) themselves.
      This is backed up by FACT.

    • Natalie says:

      11:02am | 03/08/11

      The planet is bursting at the seams with an oversupply of humans, which just keeps getting worse every year. Meanwhile, more and more animals are becoming extinct - just to make room for more humans we already have too many of.

    • Ben C says:

      11:24am | 03/08/11

      Let’s just embrace cannabalism then. Wild animals do it, why can’t we?

    • peter says:

      09:38am | 04/08/11

      Well said, Natalie.  What’s most frightening is that the atavistic meatheads who’ve posted here are capable of breeding….

    • Nathan says:

      11:07am | 03/08/11

      PETA is a disgrace, it is about control, not saving animals. PETA in fact had to go to court over their own acts of animal cruelty!

      PETA has killed 12000 animals and currently only finds a handful of homes for the animals it receives, killing around 90% of what it receives, far worse than most regular council run pounds.

      Celebrities should look into an organisation (Google isn’t that hard to use) before standing in their altogether proudly supporting one of the worse animal killing organisations in America.

    • peter says:

      09:36am | 04/08/11

      Please don’t tell lies, Nathan.  If you made even a cursory enquiry, you’d find that just one organisation - the ASPCA - euthanases between 3 and 4 MILLION dogs and cats each year.  Given that they take in between 5 and 7 million dumped animals p.a. perhaps you could suggest a better way to handle the situation.  My guess is you’d complain about the food resources needed to keep these poor animals alive.

    • marley says:

      04:13pm | 04/08/11

      Please don’t tell lies, Peter.  The figures you give provided by the ASPCA but cover ALL animal shelters in the US, not just those affiliated with the ASPCA - that would include PETA, presumably.  The average kill rate is 60% for dogs and 70% for cats. PETA, of course, contributes pretty substantially to that figure, given its kill rates are closer to 100%.

    • Shooter says:

      11:07am | 03/08/11

      I am hungry does anyone wants to join me for a steak

    • Ben C says:

      11:30am | 03/08/11

      Will it be freshly killed?

    • LC says:

      11:30am | 03/08/11

      Provided you’re having it with peppercorn sauce with roast potatoes and pumpkins, I’ll join you smile

    • Elphaba says:

      11:16am | 03/08/11

      Animal rights activists need to be realistic.  The idea that all animals should be able to roam free is a lovely one philosophically, but impractical in the real world.  For endangered animals, this means a risk from poaching.  They need to be kept in sanctuaries or zoos because people will still hunt them.  It is not practical to release all cows and sheep and pigs from the farms - where will they go?  They’re not native.  Should we just ship them back to where they came from and forget about it?

      If you feel animal activists are being treated unfairly, then start being a little more practical and a little less militant.  Organisations like PETA are dangerous eco-terrorists who know nothing about the fantasy philosophies they peddle.  If they’re willing to be a bit more sensible, I’m willing to listen.  In the meantime, I will be focusing my energies on animal welfare charities that understand that humans eat meat.  That’s just the way it is - and the best outcome we can hope for is sustainable, ethical farming and education on working with animals.

    • Godfrey Zohn says:

      03:04pm | 03/08/11

      Thank you for the balanced and reasoned comment Elphaba.  They’re getting fewer and further between.
      Any fundamentalist, basically anything with -ist on the end, is a thing to be avoided.

    • AdamC says:

      03:07pm | 03/08/11

      Elphaba, good points. Except, of course, cows, pigs and sheep never existed in the wild. We created them through selective breeding to fulfill our food and fibre needs. So there is no possibility of ‘letting them out into the wild’ even in the nuttiest vegan fantasy world. In the absence of their usefulness to, the animals created to serve us - from cats to cattle - will cease to exist. As, indeed, they would never had existed in the first place if earlier civilisations were populated with hardcore vegos.

      It is something to think about. When it comes to the animals that we have domesticated, it is very much a symbiotic relationship. Look up ‘aurochs’ for more information.

    • Elphaba says:

      04:35pm | 03/08/11

      @Godfrey, thanks.  I think treating animals with kindness is a wonderful thing.  And of course we should be striving for the elimination of cruelty to all animals.

      But some common sense wouldn’t go astray either.  They just look like militant numpties when they shriek at people who eat meat.  By all means, have polite, respectful debate.  If the majority of animal activists are the polite kind, they need to be having a word with their psychotic minority.  They’re starting to look bad.

      @AdamC, that’s true.  Still, I’m interested to know what the proposal is for these animals are in the vegan utopia.

    • Bolverk says:

      10:37pm | 03/08/11

      Economics can answer your questions Elphaba. In the incredibly unlikely event that the world one day turned entirely vegan, it remains even less likely that it would happen all at once. As total meat purchases fall, prices would fall due to over-supply. Production (ie breeding) would then contract to adjust to the new equilibrium. Some producers would make the decision to pursue another more lucrative source of income, perhaps in the then emerging vegan food markets. These would be attractive for the opposite reason, as prices would increase due to increased demand. This is of course an overly simplistic explanation, but the basic principle is sound.

    • peter says:

      11:10pm | 03/08/11

      What a ridiculous and dishonest premise!  Who ever talks about releasing farm animals into the wild?  THe fact is that the natural reduction (by consumption) of our livestock herds is already happening and has been for 20 years.  Our national sheep flock is at its lowest since the 1930s. 80% of our pork is now imported. We’ve done that without releasing them into the wild.  Live exports will also decline as more is known about the atrocities committed. 

      And by referring to PETA as “eco-terrorists shows you know nothing about them.  They have saved millions of animals from unnecessary scientific experiments, they’ve saved millions more from becoming someone’s fur-fashion accessory.  If you think that’s dangerous then you have sociopathic tendencies.  Google Sidings Springs Monkeys and tell me that should still be going on.  Cretin.

    • marley says:

      07:29am | 04/08/11

      @Peter - yes, PETA has saved millions of animals - by euthanizing them.  Hypocrites.

    • peter says:

      09:30am | 04/08/11

      Marley,  I notice that you and others consistently fail to mention other organisations - such as the ASPCA - who are forced to euthanase MILLIONS of dogs and cats each year. http://www.aspca.org/about-us/faq/pet-statistics.aspx.  And that’s just one organisation; there are thousands of others in the US that don’t have the resources to keep up with dumped animals.  Perhaps you could come up with a better solution than simply keeping these animals until they are rehomed.

      FYI, I do volunteer work for a no-kill shelter. There are dogs that have been there for years. It is impossible for animal welfare organisations to deal with the influx of abandoned pets when there is no regulations regarding supply.  You should be directing your anger at governments who allow pets to be purchased with no restrictions whatsoever.  That would assume, though, that you gave even a passing thought to the welfare of animals.

    • Elphaba says:

      09:35am | 04/08/11

      @peter… thank you for proving my point.  Unable to have a mature, name-calling free discussion, assuming that calling me a ‘cretin’ somehow proves your point.

      Run along.  Come back when you grow up.

    • Jon says:

      11:23am | 03/08/11

      The comments on here are the perfect example of the ‘unnecessary hatred’ towards animal rights folks, vegetarians, vegans etc.

      The worst kind of people, that fall into those categories (or religions, political groups etc) are the preachy ones. Their way is correct and everybody else is wrong, ironically most of the comments on here directed at animal rights folks, vegetarians, vegans etc seem to be doing the very same - their way is correct and these ‘hippies’ have lost the plot.

      Animals die in huge numbers so you can get that burger for $2 on your lunch break. Think about what that animal went through, it was born, it slept, it ate food, it felt emotions, it dreamt at night, it was scared when the farmer came near ... all so it could be eaten for $2 and pooped out the next day. If you’re cool with that, then all power to you ... but some people aren’t, so why not respect that it makes them feel uneasy.

      I’m no PETA fan, they give many of us vegans (I’m a vegan for many years now) a bad name as all crazy people. I never preach, I know there are going to be people that want to eat meat but for me I can’t. Do I hate meat-eaters? Hell no! Else I would hate my family, my parents, my friends ... but do I feel that in the wider community I’m seen as some sort of vegan-freak ... YES.

      I believe that was the point of this article, it wasn’t the best argument but simply put, stop with the ‘Meat is Murder, tasty tasty murder’ type of jokes because they are lame and old. They make a joke of a serious life choice many people make. They show no respect for the choice I’ve made in my life, yet ‘meat-eaters’ ask me to respect their life choice. It’s a two way street.

    • Ben C says:

      11:43am | 03/08/11

      @ Jon

      Being vegan is not a problem. The problem is the way that PETA have somehow made themselves to be the voice for all vegans - they campaign against the consumption of meat, and prominent vegans then jump on the PETA bandwagon. This publicity then gets driven into the minds of the general public (and to think people have problems with the marketing techniques of McDonald’s), who then make the link between vegans and PETA.

      It would be a much better place for vegans if PETA were not such renegades.

    • Emma says:

      11:49am | 03/08/11

      I agree with this. I think most of these comments bar a few thought out ones are from Gen Y Uni students who enjoy trolling for kicks. Its a sad endictment to me when we see a subject which is serious in nature, we are stewards of the animals we use and exploit, being used as a game by these annoying fools.

      Animal Welfare/Rights is a relevant cause. It is generally prescribed to by those who are compassionate, at its core you have human beings who extend their thoughts and feelings to all living beings. It is VERY sad when we live in a society when our compassion is mocked and looked down apon, what does that reflect in us?

      People who seek to improve the lives of animals and educate others are doing so for the benefit of those animals and in many cases the planet. Factory farming for example, would flourish without those of us who intervene and demand that these animals are given more rights than to be bred in a dark room deprived of EVERYTHING, walking, moving, fresh air, sun etc. Industry is profit driven, and in our capitalist world having those with compassion fight hard and loudly for these creatures is perhaps the last of our moral frontiers.

      We do live in apathetic times where so many would prefer to have a quick 2 minute meal and not concern themselves with many issues. The best way they deal with the reason they don’t contribute to the betterment of the world and its animals is to mock, is to justify that they like steak so, so be it. I think by the comments above most are challenged and use the form of defensiveness to deflect but NOT deal with the reality that participating in meat etc is condoning animal suffering, there is no way around that!

    • OchreBunyip says:

      04:47pm | 03/08/11

      @Emma - animal rights activists, like some of the comments on this site, would not be mocked as much if they first refrained from mocking others. While expressing an opinion is what this site is all about, the presentation of some opinions are couched in terms designed for conflict rather than debate. The vegans makes jokes about the choices made my meat eaters so return in kind is fair I would think.

      I eat meat and animal products. I do take care to select from ethically produced sources but I won’t sit by while I am preached at by someone who has decided their diet is morally superior. I do not try to convert them to my diet and I only ask they do not try to convert me. That, I believe, is the root cause of the trolling and mockery directed at vegans in response to this serious article. If vegans want respect they need to demonstrate respect for others.

    • Kat of Melbourne says:

      11:25am | 03/08/11

      I don’t think you can draw direct analogies between the oppression of people and the oppression of animals because animals aren’t on the same level of the food chain as us - we need to eat animals and use them in some forms of experimentation - however I don’t see wants wrong with things like wanting the stop dancing bears in Turkey or save the oranutangs while their home is being destroyed by the Palm Oil trade - its a matter of balance -

    • Duncan from Melbourne says:

      11:49am | 03/08/11

      “we need to eat animals”

      We are omnivores, we ‘choose’ to eat animals we don’t ‘need’ to. That is the biggest misconception out there.

      People refer to themselves as carnivores all the time, which is wrong because if we ate meat all the time our bodies would not be able to function. However, we can survive on a total plant based died (veganism) if managed correctly. So there is some balance in the pro-veganism argument. haha!

      So this is where the discussion comes back to ‘choice’, but it isn’t ‘need’ ... btw I choose to eat meat, I’m ok with that choice but it always irks me when people say they ‘need’ meat in their diet.

    • Emma says:

      11:51am | 03/08/11

      Kat on the food chain between you and a tiger, you are on the bottom. The natural order of things doesnt exist anymore, we have thrown that all out of balance.

      Or do you condone eating whale and dogs? By your own argument you are entitled to eat as you please.

    • Bilby says:

      12:19pm | 03/08/11

      Emma - The natural order of things is that we are at the top, mostly because of our vastly superior intellect. People can devise many different weapons which will defeat the tiger, but the tiger can’t come up with one. It only has what it was born with. That is the way of nature.

      I can’t see any objection to eating dogs, other than we don’t tend to eat carnivores due to the build up of toxins at that end of the food chain.

      Whales, well there is no logical reason not to eat them, just a sustainability issue.

    • Kat of Melbourne says:

      12:40pm | 03/08/11

      @ Emma says:11:51am | 03/08/11 - why is it in an argument people feel the need to go to extremes and the concept of taking the middle road is beyond them - if you read my post properly I said its a matter of balance - I wouldn’t personally eat whale or dog but in many parts of the world these are eaten and its not crueller to eat these than say a cow or a pig - sustainability aside its just your Western perceptions -

      And as for the food chain - in case you haven’t noticed in the natural order of things we have a naturally superior intellect to animals (well some of us do anyway) and therefore we are ontop of the food chain merely by our inventive ways of being able to kill things to eat them - the concept doesn’t have anything to do with a one-on-one fight with a tiger which I’m sure I’d lose -

    • Kat of Melbourne says:

      01:18pm | 03/08/11

      @ Duncan from Melbourne - didn’t mean it as an individual, physical imperative (everyone knows you don’t need to eat meat) - I meant that as world consumption of meat stands we need to kill animals to eat them - alot of the population of the world will never consider becoming vegetarian - so the need for the supply is there -

    • LC says:

      01:34pm | 03/08/11

      Emily, societies have found that while animals x,y and z are nice to eat, animals a and b are not as nice to eat, but make good comapnions and help control anmials c, d and e, which are vermin. However, despite animal f tasting nice to eat, we must not because of sustainability issues.

      If push came to shove, we definetly could eat dogs or cats. We try to avoid doing so because of A. carnivourus meat being stringy and B. toxin buildup.

      And for the record, there ARE cultures that eat dogs.

    • peter says:

      10:58pm | 03/08/11

      Bilby, the “logical reason” not to eat whales is that it is virtually impossible to kill these enormous animals humanely.  Many take more than half an hour to die, even with the most “advanced ” killing methods.

    • Bilby says:

      09:42am | 04/08/11

      peter - That’s not a logical reason not to eat them. It’s an ethical reason not to hunt them, but that’s a different argument.

    • Smooth says:

      11:37am | 03/08/11

      She looks a stripper to me.

    • ben says:

      11:45am | 03/08/11

      There is an informative infographic on graphjam at the moment http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/funny-graphs-peta-u-scary.gif
      PETA kills nearly 100% of the animals that it impounds.
      It spends most of its money on these ads with near naked women (thanks for that!) and very little on helping animals.
      Im all for animal welfare. Animal rights on the other hand take it too far.
      “Let’s stop thinking about whether one victim is more important than another, whether one act of gratuitous violence is more ... They’re all horrible. We condemn them all,” Does she condemn the acts of violence killing all those animals that they impound? The worst place for an animal to be is anywhere near PETA.

    • wind walker says:

      05:36pm | 03/08/11

      dead rite ben PETA is just a great big scam to get money from dip stick stars and misguided idiots

    • Lesley Laurel says:

      11:47am | 03/08/11

      Your comment:We are all just animals.We live in a human zoo.

    • Guzica says:

      11:48am | 03/08/11

      I really don’t think it’s necessary to compare human and nonhuman animals at all. Most human rights are meaningless to other animals.

      The issue (with most animal industries) isn’t that animals are not treated like humans - the real issue is that animals are not treated like animals.

    • lesley laure says:

      11:52am | 03/08/11

      There are no unwashed dope smoking dole bludgers in Australia. Dope is far too expensive for ordinary Australians who are drinking more and smoking less in 2011 !

    • null says:

      12:02pm | 03/08/11

      “Attempts to silence or deride animal activists are a reaction to them making us feel uncomfortable about being called to account over our sanctioning of animal exploitation. They tap into a deep-seated guilt about our complicity in contributing to animal suffering for our own gain, and invoke anger at the idea that we need to drastically change our consumption habits to avoid being part of a system that has cruelty at its core.”
      Sorry to break this to you, but in almost every case I know of efforts to deride animal activists are actually the result of them behaving idiotically or showing such little understanding of what they’re talking about they are borderline contemptible.  As a quick e.g. look at PETAs prosecution of museling of aheep.  To argue that the sheep should be left in their natural state is dumb - have you ever seen a fly blown sheep?
      To threaten major buyers of wool with boycotts, interruptions to fashion shows etc was economic terrorism - no to ways about it.
      Most people abhor violence to animals (see the reaction to 4 corners this year), but they also have no time for being preached to on unsubstantiatyed arguments or threatened if tehy don’t do what they’re told

    • peter says:

      10:54pm | 03/08/11

      No-one ever said that sheep (only merinos) shouldn’t be mulesed. All PETA asked was that some form of pain relief be administered prior to the operation.  Why on earth would you be against such a move?

      As it is, the boycott has forced the successful breeding of merinos without the folds of skin that need to be amputated.  No sheep farmer ever went out of business because of the PETA campaign. If anything, it taught the worst of them that there are many alternatives to cruelty.

    • Luke says:

      12:05pm | 03/08/11

      I have a problem with even using the label ‘animal activist’ in the first place though. I think they are subjective terms used mostly by the media and politics (or the perceived ‘target’ of the group) to create a biased, emotive picture of the kind of person that stands against injustice. Animal Activists are named so because they actually ‘active’ ie instead of whinging about the state of the world and its injustice, they actually get of their arses and DO something pro-active about cruelty towards animals. Active compassion towards animals is no longer on the fringes because of social media and the internet. It’s not actually a political group, or limited to country, occupation, age group, political persuasion and socio-economic status. Being active about animal injustice includes many people without an activist bone in their bodies - mothers, for example now becoming empowered by knowledge they never had before and the ability to share it by using social networking to alert others of humane buying choices. Compassion and empathy are intrinsic to our development as human beings. Without it, we remain in the dark ages of cruelty for profit instead of finding intelligent, creative ways of making the lives of those innocent beings more tolerable and god-forbid, enjoyable. Yes there are extreme groups which everyone likes to use as a stereotype. But most so called activists are decent everyday people who have had enough of the world run by corporate cruelty and sick of the advertising that covers up the truth and pretends everything is ok to our kids when clearly it is not. Most animal activists are not natural born protestors - they hate seeing or speaking of animal cruelty - they do it because they must.

    • Paul says:

      12:13pm | 03/08/11

      Animals are bloody animals, and Humans are Humans. They are not our equal, they don’t have a soul, in fact they dont even have a mental capacity. They are there for hunting and eating. Deal with it!

    • peter says:

      10:48pm | 03/08/11

      The OED defines “soul” as ” 1.  the spiritual or immaterial part of a human or animal;  2. The moral, emotional and intellectual nature of a person. “

      No. 1   shows you have no idea what you’re talking about.  No. 2 shows you lack anything resembling a soul. 

      THere are some ignorant posts here, but yours takes the cake.

    • Markus says:

      12:13pm | 03/08/11

      “Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.”

      ALBERT EINSTEIN, quoted in Sinfully Vegan

    • Tim says:

      01:43pm | 03/08/11

      “You don’t win friends with salad.”

      HOMER SIMPSON, quoted on the Simpsons.

    • bec says:

      08:12pm | 03/08/11

      “The problem with quotes found on the internet is that they lack reliability.”

      ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

    • Boondoggle says:

      12:20pm | 03/08/11

      Your comment:WOW!  Nice Sexy photo! Is Katrina Fox related to Samantha Fox, Megan Fox, or Michael Fox?

    • Al says:

      12:25pm | 03/08/11

      Do I support casual animal cruelty - NO.
      Do I support any ‘animal activest’ group - HELL NO.

      I also love some of the arguments put forward about the amount of resources used to produce meat. Perhaps they should look into the resources required to produce some of the Vegetarian or Vegan staples such a Soy and Rice.

    • TheRealDave says:

      12:32pm | 03/08/11

      Sorry, I stopped reading after you got to Post Traumatic Slave something or other…WTF?!?!? AS far as I am aware Institutionalised slavery ended int he US…oh…about 150 years ago after the end of their civil war in 1865. I think I’d be pretty much spot ont eh money that not a single black person in the United States today has ever been a ‘slave’. Nor have their parents. Nor have their grandparents….unless they are over 110 or so….

      Whats next…decendeants of the Napoleonic Wars veterans claiming PTSD??

      But back onto the rest of your drivel, that I read before the above mentioned crap…..maybe animal rights actiuvists would get a modicum of respect IF they didn’t carry on like Morrissey and worse? Ant HSarwood was dead on the money when he described the way those pelicans operate. They don’t ‘discuss’ anythign like intelligent adults. They harangue, abuse and insult. So they get it back in return. I’d put a hefty wager on the fact that most people in this country would be happy to help or support animal welfare groups. But its the condust and actions of the visible face of Animal Activism that not only turns them off but give it back in kind.

      In short, groups like PETA are the problem. Not the likes of KFC, Maccas, battery farms, Live Animal exporters etc If these Animal Welfare ‘wackjobs’ acted like normal adult human beings the rest of us might actually start ‘giving a shit’ about their message.

    • Guzica says:

      12:54pm | 03/08/11

      There was far more to historical oppression of blacks than actually literally being a slave…

      Plenty of people alive today remember the 1960s (and earlier). It wasn’t until after the civil rights movement that all official discrimination was abolished. Not to even begin to mention the lingering unofficial discrimination which exists even today.

      For the record, this whole PTSS thing sounds somewhat bogus to me too. But to pretend that after 1865, life was 100% peachy and totally equal for African Americans simply because they could no longer literally be owned as slaves is plain ignorant. The US wasn’t too much better than South Africa under Apartheid - until after the civil rights movement. Pretty recent in the scheme of things.

    • Luke says:

      01:05pm | 03/08/11

      Most compassionate people actually give a crap about changing the problems created by “KFC, Maccas, battery farms, Live Animal exporters etc” Extremism exists in all group that want change in society, always has been, always will be. Get over it. Intelligent people look beyond the extremes and see the relevant message and do what they can to change injustice. You can join the throng of your choice these days.

    • Rob Herron says:

      12:36pm | 03/08/11

      I’d put “exhibitionist” then “pest” ahead of “extremist” and way ahead of “terrorist” .

    • Mitchell Meek says:

      12:59pm | 03/08/11

      Do Peta members (and other more extreme advocates for forms of non-sentient life) extend their concerns to the mosquitoes we swat, the ants we step on or the cockroaches we spray? What about germs, the really nasty ones we inject ourselves with vaccines or gobble antibiotics to kill? Do the animal advocates care about them, or do they line up for their flu vaccination each year as well?

    • Al says:

      01:54pm | 03/08/11

      According to their own goals they seek ‘Complete Animal Liberation’, that would include all animal lifefroms.
      Of course they are rather hypocritical about following their own rules anyway so…

    • stephen says:

      01:08pm | 03/08/11

      I know a bloke who campaigns land rights for animals and when I pointed out that, down at the local walking-track, it’s the bipeds who are picking up doggy-poo, and not the dogs, (and I swear I can hear the hounds laughing at us) he sideswipped my point by saying that next it will be land-rights for vegetables.
      (I think he was joking, but the next turnip that goes into my mouth, I’m a gonna chomp the guts out of it.)

    • bog cog says:

      01:15pm | 03/08/11

      As a farmer who actually knows something about animal production systems, the frustration with animal-liberation activists is the outright lies, willful ignorance and stating of their opinions as facts.
      e.g, live export is cruel is an opinion not a fact, but they know if they say it often enough to the urban masses they will come to believe it as fact.

      The likes of Katrina Fox will tell you farming land should be used for growing grain and not raising animals ,not mentioning what small percentage of agricultural land is arable, i.e croppaple, plus also the need for rotation practices to prevent weed resistance and help soil fertility.

      If animal rights activists were as honest as animals than they might earn the respect Katrina Fox craves.

    • peter says:

      10:40pm | 03/08/11

      Firstly, live exporting of animals is cruel. That’s not an opinion, that is a proven and well documented fact. 

      Second, given that much of our arable land is used for growing feed for cattle, sheep and pigs, the fact remains that many more people could be fed if we didn’t farm animals.

      And third, the term “animal activist” as an epithet is a nonsensical one. Who are you trying to insult? As one who seeks to have all animals treated humanely, I wear the “activist” tag with great pride.  We do more to advance humanity than any of you armpit-scratching primates who don’t give a damn.

    • Ray says:

      01:32pm | 03/08/11

      I think Olivia whatshername is concealing a squirrel while squeezing said squirrel very hard.

      I think all activists need to be fully exposed.

      I for one love squirrels and and their warm fuzzy feel. I could just hug ‘em and kiss ‘em till they squeel.

      Feel much the same about beavers.

      Any how I believe in what ever Olivia says.

    • Animal Rights Activists are boring says:

      01:42pm | 03/08/11

      Next topic please

    • Cynthia says:

      01:43pm | 03/08/11

      From childhood I have seen a lot of slaughtering of animals & stopped eating meat from the age of 6.But I was always forced to eat animals by my family & friends & even ridiculed at times.Does eating animals make us superior human beings?

    • Al says:

      01:58pm | 03/08/11

      No, but does not eating animals based on fallicies and hypocritical groups that proclaim animals are our equals (and in some cases our superiors) make us superior human beings?
      I have no issue with your choice to not eat meat. I accept that as your choice.
      Can you say the same about accepting my choice to eat meat?

    • Cynthia says:

      03:21pm | 03/08/11

      @Al.. Animals aren’t our equal but they definitely are more loyal than us humans.I have no issue with u eating animals but cant we atleast try to give them a better life?There are alternatives to animal testing & caging but still these cruel practices prevail…

    • marley says:

      07:54pm | 03/08/11

      @Cynthia - I go along with anything that provides humane treatment to animals.  As for animal loyalty, dogs, maybe - but lets not indulge in too much anthropomorphism here.  I doubt the average sheep, steer, chicken or domestic cat has much loyalty at all.

    • Steve Perry says:

      01:46pm | 03/08/11

      I once saw a PETA ad that compared the Jews in concentration camps in nazi Germany to chickens in a battary farm.

      How in all shades of blue f*ck can you possibly compare the torture and slaughter of over 6 million HUMAN BEINGS - human beings that if they had survived could have gone on to make a difference in the world, to the sufferring of some CHICKENS?!

      They’re chickens. Sure, the battary cages are cruel, but really?! Putting a human and a chicken on the same level makes about as much sense as barbed-wire vibrator.

    • peter says:

      10:31pm | 03/08/11

      I’m not surpised given your limited vocab that you lack sufficient empathy to understand the comparison.  Imagine if an alien species herded you into a small yard with a million other humans.  They picked you out at random in order to strip you of your skin to wear as fashion.  They took away your children to eat them. They amputated your arms with hot wire so you wouldn’t fight with the other humans. They reprocessed your faeces as food and fed it back to you.  They assumed because they held you captive that you had no feelings. 

      How would you feel?  THis is the life of a chicken, a living, breathing, sentient animal. Yet you seem to think we have the right to inflict any level of depravity on it because it’s not human. 

      I hope the aliens visit your place first.

    • John the Zombie says:

      01:47pm | 03/08/11

      Hey is it me or can all the articles and posts put onto the punch site be easily solved by just watching and episode of South Park. I am a vivd reader of the Punch and found every topic that has been discussed on this site can be related to a South Park episoide.

      I do remember one on PeTA.

      South Park did it first.

    • Zac says:

      01:53pm | 03/08/11

      PETA is all about Atheistic/Darwinian ideology. It has nothing to do with animal welfare or nature. They are no different to the Watermelons (Greens). It is purely politics and power. A while ago when I was debating an Atheist she told me “It is you Christians who think human life is divine, we are no different to bacteria and virus” and in my further discussions with Atheists over many years I found this is a common belief and very much underpinned by social darwinism. Here is an example of PETA’s tactics…

      PETA uses shock to grab your attention, placing animals and humans on the same plane of valued life. This past summer, PETA ran a controversial ad on TV called “Sex Talk.” Parents were having a talk with their teenage daughter, only the conversation was a spoof of irresponsible pet owners. (I hate those folks, too.) Here’s a part of how the conversation goes:


      “We think you should be having it, Sweetie,” begins her dad.

      “A lot of it,” adds her mom.

      “Get up there and nail everything you can,” her father says.

      “If it’s got a pulse, you should be wrapped around it,” the mother finishes.

      The shocked girl asks them what will happen if she gets pregnant. They both shrug it off.

      “So what?” You should pop out all the kids you want,” the father replies, waving away her concerns. “We’ll just leave them in the shelter, dump them in the street.”

      For more inhuman tactics and PETA’s beliefs check this out…..

      http://hummersandcigarettes.blogspot.com/2008/09/peta-i-love-animals-but-i-hate-peta.html

    • andye says:

      02:01pm | 03/08/11

      This meat lover has dated a few vegetarians. None of them were preachy and generally it only came up in conversation when eating with others and they noticed.

      I observed that a vegetarian will find themselves with at least one person in any dinner group that will aggressively challenge them. The same arguments seem to get thrown a lot, and it boils down to trying to poke a hole in the ethical or moral reasoning behind the vegetarian’s choice. I saw someone lead up to their stunning conclusion “...well what about your shoes, then?”, followed by arms crossed with a smug expression.

      The shoes were fake leather.

      I think the reason some people get so angry is they don’t really want to face the ethical dilemma. While I am ethically opposed to hunting, at least hunters are generally honest about who they are and what they want. A vegetarian has faced their dilemma and made a choice to sacrifice something.

      The angry meat eater? Don’t be bitter that others have made a choice you don’t want to face. Hence the tendency to try to find fault in the vegetarians choice, to make them a hypocrite.

      As for me? I am OK with it. I like meat and accept that animals will die. Some might think I am a jerk for that, but at least I am an honest jerk who faces up to the real cost of that burger.

    • AJ says:

      02:05pm | 03/08/11

      Katrina Fox - Thanks for your article.  I really enjoyed reading it.  Shame about the smart a@se low-quality commentary.  Keep up the good work!

    • Bilby says:

      03:30pm | 03/08/11

      I think you meant smart @rse. You’re welcome.

    • Paul says:

      03:58pm | 03/08/11

      No comeback no facts just a smart @rse comment. Haha and you wonder why people don’t take you seriously!

    • Bilby says:

      04:16pm | 03/08/11

      Paul, I note that you have used my corrected spelling. You’re welcome.

    • Yon Toad says:

      02:07pm | 03/08/11

      We didn’t climb to the top of the food-chain by eating grass.

    • Prince says:

      02:12pm | 03/08/11

      I’d hit that….

      ... what were we talking about?

    • Brad says:

      02:15pm | 03/08/11

      Your credibility is so low because, like many groups of activists it’s the extreme ones which sell most papers and therefore PETA and others are known mostly for the nut-jobs which inhabit its dusty corners. Perhaps in your case “there’s no such thing as bad publicity” doesn’t hold true. I believe reducing our use of animals as food would have significant environmental as well as health benefits. Universal vegitarianism is unhealthy and silly. Anything else we “exploit” animals for that can be done humanely should be, but if there is something in particular that activists find really objectionable but is necessary to the advancement of human health (ie: NOT cosmetics testing and other pointless rubbish) then the activists should voulenteer to take the place of the animals for the tests. If you believe that strongly in it you should set an example rather than whinging endlessly. Might weed out a few extremists too!

    • Al says:

      02:35pm | 03/08/11

      Medical testing on PETA members, sounds good to me!

    • Interested observer says:

      02:33pm | 03/08/11

      I can accept that there is an ethical case that can be argued for vegetarianism.  I do not accept it as my moral code but can believe there is an ethical basis for not consuming meat.  However statements issued by PETA include calling for a ban on honey as bees die collecting this for human use, and on milk, as the cow does not produce this for human consumption.  The rules according to PETA would restrict humanity to living in high rise apartments to allow space for free roaming species living by tooth and claw on each other whilst humans attempted to survive on hydroponics and mushroom farming.  One farmer of my acquaintance observed that nothing converts a a greenie to the opposite point of view faster than actually living out the reality.

    • Shenanigans says:

      02:44pm | 03/08/11

      i wonder if a purely carnivorus species had become the dominant one, would they likely show humans the same respect that organisations like PETA want us to show the animals we eat, probably not. but again its all pure speculation

    • Food chain & inuits says:

      03:01pm | 03/08/11

      Is the food chain part of nature?

      If so, then what are we doing to ensure ALL sentient beings in the food chain are not feeding on the lesser ones within the chain?

      Why stop at/ blame homosapiens only?

      And can PETA explain how indigenous peoples such as eskimos, inuits, aborigines supposed to eat and cloth themselves to live in their indigenous enviorns?

    • Ruby says:

      06:14pm | 03/08/11

      Killing wild animals for survival is very different to the way meat is commonly bred and consumed in factory farms and fast food chains. I respect your decision to eat meat, though I personally choose to be vegetarian because I don’t need to eat it to survive.

    • Fish Finger says:

      03:08pm | 03/08/11

      If PETA is involved, one can be reasonably sure that it is the nutty fringe at work. After all, these are the people who brought you “Sea Kittens”. Go Google it - you will be utterly amazed at the kinds of marketing ‘prowess’ [cough] these persons apply.

    • Al says:

      03:29pm | 03/08/11

      I am probably a little more honest than most meat eaters about my food (as a meat eater).
      Yes I know where it comes from and the usualy argument I get of ‘could you watch it being slaughtered’ my answer is ‘yes, and I have actualy hunted, killed, skun and dressed my own meat in the past’. (Feral goat can be quite nice as long as you know how to check it is disease free and is prepared well, think of it as ‘Free Range’ Meat.)

    • bec says:

      08:15pm | 03/08/11

      Have you tried a goat curry? Very very tasty, and quite authentic Indian too…

    • Outraged says:

      03:35pm | 03/08/11

      I am shocked that Katrina Fox considered herself a Feminist…yet she is objectifying women by showing a picture of a naked woman!

    • Conan of Cooma says:

      03:37pm | 03/08/11

      Extremists are extremists, you can’t change that!

    • Andy of Sydney says:

      03:56pm | 03/08/11

      Oh, please. Animal rights terrorists are not doped up, unwashed hippies. That is so yesterday. No, mate. Today, these idiots are porn “stars”. I’d link it, if there was a link function, which there sadly doesn’t seem to be. Look it up in Google. It’s all there.

    • Mick says:

      04:10pm | 03/08/11

      I hate hypocratic do gooders and animal activists as well as eco terrorists such as Green peace, Sea shepered and the Greens.
      They force their opinion to all other people in the society and take fun away from the majority of people living happily.
      I do not understand why Australia’s medias including ABC supports them so much.
      They are only supported by very small number of extremests who has no commonsense what so ever.
      I tell you. They will eventually try to ban back yard BBQ party with any kind of meats.
      Aussies wake up!
      Stop against unnessesary restriction and stop the nation turning into nanny state.

    • Shooter says:

      04:42pm | 03/08/11

      Mick because they are the minority. In Australia we only support minority groups. F*** what everyone else wants just bow down to the minorities.

    • peter says:

      10:22pm | 03/08/11

      Mick, would you prefer do-badders, and people who randomly torture animals? Why are you threatened by those with a conscience?  Is it beyond you to imagine that another mammal might have equal or greater emotional capacity to yourself?  Judging by your level of debate (not to mention spelling) your capacity for feeling borders on the sociopathic.

    • Occam's Blunt Razor says:

      04:13pm | 03/08/11

      I just hope the lovely young ladies continue to have a cause that allows them to undress in public for a long time.

      Animals aren’t humans and therefore they can be treated differently to humans.

      There are lots of sheep, cows and kangaroos in WA getting wet and cold out in the rain at the moment.  What are you going to do about it?

      Oh, that’s right - they’re animals - not humans.

    • Shooter says:

      04:18pm | 03/08/11

      If you are not willing to kill an animal then don’t eat meat

    • Bilby says:

      04:26pm | 03/08/11

      So long as you don’t use any software that you didn’t write, we’re totally in agreement.

    • Shooter says:

      05:26pm | 03/08/11

      Bilby I only like hardware

    • Bilby says:

      06:03pm | 03/08/11

      So… what you’re saying then… is that you’re not willing to write software, yet here you are on the internets. Ponderous.

    • Shooter says:

      06:29pm | 03/08/11

      I think I am, but can I eat Bilbey’s?

    • Shooter says:

      06:30pm | 03/08/11

      Bilby I thought it was the wwwnet.

    • Kate says:

      04:25pm | 03/08/11

      I just want to ask, if we’re going to give animals the same rights as humans, are we going to expect the same level of responsibility from them? Humans are accorded certain rights, with which come certain responsibilities. How do we define child abuse if we take animals into consideration? Or is it only humans who have to curb their behaviour?

    • peter says:

      10:13pm | 03/08/11

      Dear oh dear Kate, where do you get your presumptions from?  No-one is suggesting that we give animals the same rights as humans (that would involve rights to work, rights to vote, rights to freedom of speech, etc).  Reductio ad absurdum might work among your fellow meatheads, but in intelligent debate you really just make a fool of yourself.

    • peter says:

      10:17pm | 03/08/11

      to your last questions, as the species which claims the highest mammalian order of intelligence, it is incumbent on us (and that means you, too) to not only behave in a sustainable fashion, but to show the utmost care for those animals we don’t give a choice to, i.e. farm animals.  THey are bred to be killed, so it’s our responsibility to do it in the most humane way possible.  What is it you find so threatening about that concept?

    • Prince says:

      04:28pm | 03/08/11

      We are omnivores. We have sharp teeth at the front for tearing meat and grinding teeth at the back for breaking down vegetable matter.
      I will kick in 10 bucks to send PETA members on a bus trip to the museum - they might learn something - who will match me?

    • Em says:

      08:49am | 04/08/11

      I certainly will.

      It’s about time someone pointed this out.  We’re made to eat meat. We’re made to eat vegetable matter. We thrive on both together.

    • Interested observer says:

      04:36pm | 03/08/11

      In reply to Shenanigans, there is a very thought provoking series by Larry Niven on the Man-Kzin wars (start with the early books to build up the mental attitude required).  Kzin are space faring carnivores who consider humans to be prey.

    • Ry says:

      05:02pm | 03/08/11

      carnism is the worst religion

    • Argh says:

      05:13pm | 03/08/11

      Animals aren’t as important as humans.

    • Amy says:

      05:29pm | 03/08/11

      Thank you for this intelligent and articulate article. What a shame that the same can’t be said for many of the commenters here.

    • Ruby says:

      06:06pm | 03/08/11

      I never take Punch commenters seriously. Too many right-wing, bigoted rednecks among them.

    • Brad says:

      06:47pm | 03/08/11

      Yes, Amy your comment in particular which has added nothing useful whatsoever to the debate.

    • bec says:

      08:03pm | 03/08/11

      Ruby, I’m reasonably hard to the left and I have problems with vegetarianism and PETA. My reasons are firmly based not only in a scientifically grounded understanding of optimal human health, but my own humanist and feminist background.

      Hold your opinion all you like, but don’t presume that someone must be right wing just because they disagree with you.

    • Brad says:

      09:44pm | 03/08/11

      Cat fight!

    • Amy says:

      10:11pm | 03/08/11

      Brad, my comment is an observation of the sort of mindless, protective comments that this article has attracted. The fact is, that people who care about animals - SIMPLY CARE. They care about people, they care about preventing suffering on every level, they do not like to see harm done. They are compassionate people. Why knock these people? They are not hurting anyone. They are literally going out of their way to make sure they are not hurting anyone, animals included. They do not deserve abuse and emotionally fueled outrage for simply living a life that they can live with. Surely this makes sense to the rational human being?

    • Bolverk says:

      10:51pm | 03/08/11

      It would be a mistake to confuse politics with dietary choices. I would generally fall on the right wing of the political scale (primarily due to economics), and yet I have been a committed vegetarian for most of my life.

    • marley says:

      07:21am | 05/08/11

      @Amy - why do you assume that people who don’t support PETA don’t care about animals?  Many of us do, but we deplore the tactics of the more extreme animal liberationists. 

      As for “caring about people” - well, having read the comments from yourself, Peter and a handful of others, you show complete contempt for people who don’t share your views.  People who are treated with contempt tend to react negatively to that contempt, just as animals react badly to mistreatment.

      An animal liberationist, of all people, should understand the parallel and adjust his or her behaviour accordingly.

    • Shooter says:

      05:30pm | 03/08/11

      I do like peta for one thing and one thing only. Half naked females protesting in Sydney what great city, Pity I didn’t take in what they were protesting about.  Was it for nudism?

    • stephen says:

      06:08pm | 03/08/11

      I’m trying to think of a song called : Singing cross-legged in the sand and thanking the Wolves for the opportunity - but all I get is,
      Living in the land of concrete and harmony.
      She is a plastic version of serenity.
      And if she had on beads, ?

    • stephen says:

      07:25pm | 03/08/11

      “Bout time you scanned my stuff correctly.

    • Sharron says:

      05:48pm | 03/08/11

      Great article. Incredibly disappointed with the accompanying picture. As a feminist I am offended that there seems to be a need for a naked body (female of course) to promote the anti circus (anti cruelty) movement. The torturous, monotonous & abused lives the circus animals live should be enough of a ‘promotion’. Sad when we stoop to such pitiful levels

    • Bella says:

      05:57pm | 03/08/11

      Prince, I don’t want to debate whether or not we are intended to eat meat or not. There are lots of body parts that used to serve a function but evolution now makes them unnecessary and teeth for tearing meat may or may not be one of them. In our modern, very unnatural, world we have choices about how we behave towards animals. It’s not natural or healthy to eat as much meat and dairy as most people do. It’s not natural to factory farm animals to satisfy our demands for more and more animal products in our diet. In today’s world we can choose whether to contribute to unnecessary cruelty or take a bit of time and effort to find alternatives because we don’t live in caves and see a woolly mammoth as a useful and perhaps only source of nutrition any more. Personally I choose not to contribute to the cruelty of factory farming.

      Katrina has made a very valid point. Animal rights activists get abused and derided for trying to defend animals from humans who don’t have to abuse them but decide they’re going to. Having been to more than my fair share of protests, I have yet to see any activists behave in anything other than a courteous and professional manner to the people who challenge and insult us. I’m sure there are the rude activists many of you describe but there are obnoxious sales assistants, receptionists and lawyers too.

      Maybe some of you should get over your prejudices against animal rights activists and listen to what we have to say. Circuses are cruel, live export is horrific and factory farming involves some horrendous practices that most people don’t know about. There is nothing wrong with wanting to stop unnecessary suffering and the people who devote their spare time to trying to achieve this deserve our respect. No one is saying you have to all go vegan tomorrow but perhaps stop assuming that the activists are suggesting something insane and listen to what they have to say.

    • marley says:

      03:00pm | 05/08/11

      Perhaps if the activists desisted from referring to those of us who have reservations about PETA or veganism as sociopaths, serial killers, meatheads, and ignorant grubs, we might be willing to listen to what they have to say. 

      If the point of animal activism is to better protect animals, common sense suggests that it would be more productive to find common ground with people who care about animals but aren’t prepared to go to the extremes.  Instead, the activists on this thread are doing their level best to alienate us.  It seems to me that at least some of those doing the name-calling care more about asserting their moral superiority than about actually achieving something practical for the animals.

    • Pat says:

      06:03pm | 03/08/11

      I’m not a vegetarian or animal activist, but those of you who are should have a look at this link Showing WA Police running over a whale pod in the Kimberley on Sunday 31 July 2011. It’s terrible.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucEaam1wPes
      Delphinus – 22-metre patrol vessel based at Dampier. Delphinus operates on extended patrols throughout the North West and is primarily responsible for counter terrorism security control and emergency response.

    • Argowal Coppercoin says:

      06:21pm | 03/08/11

      Perhaps we should just give animals the right to vote? Make us all equal regardless of species. They may even do a better job of it than the activists do.

    • Sharron says:

      04:59pm | 04/08/11

      Argowal no activist is asking for an animal to have the right to vote. That would be pretty silly now wouldn’t it? All we want is the right for animals to live their lives as I have the right to live mine.

    • The Dead Wood Liberals Society says:

      07:54pm | 03/08/11

      forget the circus elephants and the animal people !
      Give me the naked girl and I will treat her like a human !
      She brings out the animal in me!

    • stephen says:

      09:19pm | 03/08/11

      But you’re a girl, dear.
      (Nice animal, but don’t tell Ted.)

    • SSCS says:

      07:55pm | 03/08/11

      I think perhaps one should ask why people are acting with such vitriol against these activists in the first place ?

      Perhaps it is because most of them appear to actually be nothing more than as described, good for nothing dole bludgers or some other lower form if human being.

      You will note that members of Sea Shepherd do not get derided in such ways, why ? Well they actually do something instead of whining like insipid school girls in a corner thats why… Simply they get stuff done, take their fight to the perps. They do not go around abusing the people who eat the whales, instead they have the courage to take on the Whalers themselves.

      Look at PETA, what a pack of facists they are… bullying people with their rot, thats all they are doing, simple outright bullying. Do we see them taking on the perps ? No, they are too scared and not worth a cent in most peoples minds so they get treated the way they should be… with disgust for we know they are just dogs.

      There are those on this forum that crap on about how being a vegi is so much better. You are hyprocrites, how dare you consider a plant life form any less important than any other life form; and who are you to tell others how to live ? What gives you the holy right ? Allow people to make their own decisions without your claptrap of lies.

      Perhaps people should instead use education to “their views” rather than insipid protesting OR do what the real deal do… go take on the perps and put your own balls on the line.

      SSCS member

    • Sarah says:

      10:31pm | 03/08/11

      While the Sea Shepherd’s actions are courageous and commendable, your logic in suggesting that the perpetrators are the whalers themselves is somewhat flawed. What happens once all the whalers in the world have met their demise at the hands of the Sea Shepherd? Will there suddenly be no more whales murdered? No. The perpetrators remain the consumers and where there is demand there will always be supply.

      You seem so infuriated by what you consider to be ‘bullying’. Try having every single natural instinct of yours denied. I’d rather be bullied every day of my life then be stuck in a crate unable to make the simplest of bodily movements. Try that for an existence.

    • John the Zombie says:

      01:00am | 04/08/11

      Interesting to see what will happen in the up and coming whale battle as Japan will be sending out defence vessels. It will be harder and with the enterence of the Japanese navy into the foray I can see something bad happening. Hopefully heads will stay cool and no one will do anything to provoke the navy. The Japanese will play the media war here and believe me the first sign of provocation by the sea sheperd and the other ships will be quickly put on Youtube and shown to the world so guys play it cool.

      I actually support this and the requirement to protect whales. Also I dont go to circus as I believe in those animals been allowed to live free not caged. How many ppl would put thier dog in the same type of position of a small cage.

    • Sharron says:

      05:03pm | 04/08/11

      SSCS you state ‘who are you to tell others how to live’ & ‘what gives you the holy right’ ok…what gives you the right to criticise the protesters (me included)? It is called democracy

    • marley says:

      12:45pm | 06/08/11

      What gives someone the right to criticize protesters?  It’s called freedom of speech.  Geesh.  Some of you need basic lessons in civics.

    • Shaere says:

      08:12pm | 03/08/11

      Dairy causes osteoporosis and contributes to any number of human health problems including diabetes, obesity and heart disease. Anyone who has read the scientific literature (from scientific journals) (Those with University science degrees will know what I am talking about), will note that those countries with highest dairy intake also have the highest rates of osteoporosis. It is only logical, anyway. What animal drinks another animal’s milk? What animal drinks milk beyond the baby stage? And - no - cats are not an answer. You don’t see cats fastened to cow teats. And cats are lactose intolerant. Humans are meant to drink human breast milk until they are ready to move on to solid food. That’s how humans were designed. Did God/nature get it so wrong we have to run to a cow to get a drink? Of course not.
      70% greenhouse gases are caused by the livestock industry - (scientific review of literature undertaken in late 2010). This replaced the previous 2006 UN 18% figure.
      As for cows, pigs etc overrunning the planet? Since most are bred artificially, and few females actually even see a male, if you don’t breed them, they will die out in about 20 years. A few could be kept as examples of the species. Pesonally, I’d keep a few just for the manure for the veggie gardens, so they could still have a role in the food chain, just not a role where they have to be killed before they die narurally. Those that die naturally - no objection at all to their bodies being used for meat/hides etc.
      The vast majority of experiments on animals have no relevance to human health. The systems are completely different. In fact, many results in an animal system are the exact opposite in a human system.
      So many comments made are from those either ignorant, or wilfully ignorant. Regarding live export - anyone who saw the 4 corners footage, or the images of sheep stuffed into car boots in the middle east - would acknowledge that as animal cruelty. Even the industry agreed. But the industry is ok with that, because that’s how they make money.
      If you look up vegan athletes - you’ll see weightlifters, Carl Lewis, body builders among them. Being vegan does not equal pathetic body as some ignorant commentators would like to imply.

    • Al says:

      08:55am | 04/08/11

      “The vast majority of experiments on animals have no relevance to human health. The systems are completely different. In fact, many results in an animal system are the exact opposite in a human system.”
      Oh, so I guess I should chuck out my Insulin as it was developed using animal testing (and originaly DIRECTLY extracted from animals) and so it can’t actualy work.
      That one statement tells me you have been brainwashed, there ARE many medical animal testings undertaken that are in fact relevant. What you seem to be missing is that PETA would ban:
      All medical treatments that contain animal products or were produced using animal testing…know what that means, back to using herbs and a trial and error on humans to determine safety. When PETA members put up their hands to undergo those testings from the initial stage (not from the stage where they have gone through animal testing and have some idea of the likely effects on the body).
      Also, your statement that the ‘systems are completely different’ if pure falicy, a lie. There are many systems within different species that react the same and do the same job, but I guess you don’t want facts getting in the way of your own beliefs.
      I don’t support animal cruelty, but I will NEVER EVER support groups like PETA who are full of manure and even fund criminal activities.

    • Carole Li says:

      08:34pm | 03/08/11

      In order to understand this issue we need to understand: Animal Activists CARE for the other sentient beings who don’t have a voice themselves, who are exposed to human’s exploitation and cannot defend for themselves on this planet. There is nothing wrong in doing so, in fact Animal Activists are the most compassionate and selfishless humans on earth, of course Vegans are on the top of the list. In doing activities of being an Animal Activist, no doubt some may show frustration and anger that are generated due to being passionate, misunderstood and resisted, this is a natural human behaviour. We need to look at this from both sides. “We humans resent unwanted advice, especially when it threatens our comfort zones. Denial and resistance are driven by fear and the worst fears are social fears.” Humans are naturally defensive species, when one human’s comfort zone feels threatened he/she reacts in defensive way without being aware of the reasons for his/her behaviour, and this reaction leads to the frustration and anger on the other human who initiated this “threat” to his/her comfort zone. Animal Activists usually tangle the comfort zone of the majority population whilst people don’t really want to know about the Animal Rights issues. Unquestionably Animal Welfare and Animal Rights issues do make people feel uncomfortable because Animal Activists are revealing the horrific truth, pointing out the fundamental problems of the society, i.e. the wrong doings of the majority population. The answer is: The mission of Animal Activist is not an easy one and the Question is: Are people willing to become aware? And become aware of the reason of their behaviours? (Racism = Speciesism = Sexism)
      Remember there is no Animal Activists were born as an Animal Activist, before they became an Animal Activist, they lived their lives like the majority people, hence they have lived in a life like everyonelse in DENIAL, they know and understand how the majority people (lives) are like, but do the majority people understand what it is like to be an Animal Activist?
      Check out awesome video:
      Wake Up-The Truth About Our Modern Diet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt8l8hBlhUQ
      Earthlings: http://www.earthlings.com/
      Food matters: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/food-matters/
      The beautiful truth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvzDHGLEUyw

    • stephen says:

      09:03pm | 03/08/11

      Awesome.
      Fantastic.
      And good luck with taking white hoods out of circulation.
      Or are you only interested in food, refuse, and elocution ?

    • joe says:

      10:38pm | 03/08/11

      Carole,

      if you had to choose between a dying chicken or a dying child. what would you choose? if you had breathrough medicine that could cure millions but you need to test it before giving it out, do you test it directly on humans or do you test it on animals first? come on….!!! every time you put makeup, eat any sweet, put anything on your body it has been tested on animals to make sure it is safe for you.

      btw ive seen all the movies youve sent through. In a utopian world, it would be nice to eat organically, fresh food, but we are a planet of 6 billion and growing by the second. how else do you effectively, efficiently, cost effective way to feed the planet?

    • peter says:

      09:14am | 04/08/11

      Joe, there doesn’t need to be a choice. Animals don’t need to suffer in order to test medicines.  Additionally, most animals used in laboratory experiments aren’t contributing to life saving drugs, they are being tortured so that the make-up, lipstick or skin cream your wife uses doesn’t make her itch.  In other words, animals suffer for our vanity.  Are you comfortable with that?

    • Kate says:

      09:19pm | 03/08/11

      I feel the same way about animal rights activism and vegetarianism that I do about religion. You have every right to practice it, just please don’t shove it down my throat or act like you’re a better person than those who disagree with you.

    • Shenye says:

      09:33pm | 03/08/11

      Regarding PETA - PETA has had many victories for animals, and educated many people. You might not agree with their methods, but the animals would be worse off without PETA, and all the other animal activists.
      All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
      Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.

    • Peter says:

      09:36pm | 03/08/11

      What organisation kills the most animals in the USA. it’s called PETA. The one in the poster.
      Don’t believe me? Look it up. Peta believes euthanasia of animals prevents cruelty.

    • peter says:

      09:08am | 04/08/11

      Wrong.  The number of healthy animals euthanased each year in the US by local pounds and the ASPCA numbers in the millions.  Many of the animals euthanased by PETA were traumatised and injured as a result of being rescued from hideous conditions (science labs, dog fights, etc).  As a result of their trauma, they are unable to be rehomed.

    • Music Man says:

      09:48pm | 03/08/11

      What a bunch of idiots… Animals aren’t equals - they are our labour, our food, and entertainment.

      Considering we’re the advanced species on this planet - I say time to tell those animal loving dickheads to stop smoking their dope and complain about something worthwhile, like drug use, world poverty, or the lack of decent natural energy.

    • peter says:

      10:25am | 04/08/11

      “Animals aren’t equals - they are our labour, our food, and entertainment. ” 

      And here is yet another example of the regression of human evolution.  Animals are our entertainment, are they?  I presume Music Man approves of bear-baiting as entertainment, of dog and cock fighting, of rodeos, of bullfights, of countless other examples of animal cruelty so that meatheads like him can be “entertained”. 

      And to think a woman gave birth to this specimen.

    • Lily says:

      03:01pm | 09/08/11

      Speaking of idiots.  What a complete waste of space you are, Music Man.  That unevolved, “I’m a He-Man” shit might have been fashionable 1000 years ago, but your stunning lack of intelligence, compassion and insight should be an embarrassment to you in this day and age.

    • terry says:

      09:54pm | 03/08/11

      You vile animal rights activists are sickening. You want to be treated like humans?Yeah right what about the disgustingway you treat circus people.zoo keepers,people in the meat industry and scientists. I hope they all keep treating you like the scum that you are. Dont for a minute think the majority o fpeople think you are right on protesters with compassion. You are fundemantalist nazi like bullies. Go to hell the lot of you.

    • peter says:

      09:03am | 04/08/11

      ..and here we have a choice specimen who likes to make up stories in order to fight against the decent treatment of animals.  What is it you find threatening about ethics?  Why do you people have a problem with the humane treatment of animals?

      One only has to read the frenzied, poorly-spelt hatred in these posts to realise how many people there are with more than one screw loose.

    • Servaas says:

      09:57pm | 03/08/11

      “Attempts to silence or deride animal activists are a reaction to them making us feel uncomfortable about being called to account over our sanctioning of animal exploitation.”

      Wrong. They irritate us because they are of the opinion that humasn and animals are equals. How about they just campaign for the sake of decent behaviour and not say ridiculous stuff like the above comment surrounding the Norway shootings. 1 person murdered is worse than a whole herd or flock of something taken out.

      What they do is illogical: if we are all animals/humans, in other words alike, why don’t they protest against lions who brutally murder antelope so regularly? Why don’t they protest against our killing of millions of babies daily, or should one species fight for the rights of another - we fight for seals and whales and so on but who will stand up against abortion?

      If you follow a disrespectful approach towards the people you want to reach through your campaigns it’s just plain bad PR and marketing.

    • Sophia says:

      10:08pm | 03/08/11

      Ok I feel bad for noticing. Her left heel looks like it is in a very unthought of spot. Come on photographer?! Composition is key.

      The amount of comments on this article are great.

    • peter says:

      10:09pm | 03/08/11

      It’s hardly surprising that the most atavistic humans jump to their computers in indignation.  “THese are just animals”, they cry. (So are we, but evolution implies we take a more civilised approach)  “Animals kill animals. That’s life”, says another choice specimen.  (many animals also eat their young, carry on incestuous relationships, and kill for the right to mate. Does that excuse us from similar behaviour?) 

      “Look at PETA, what a pack of facists (sic) they are”, grunts another neanderthal.  (PETA have actually saved millions of animals from having electric probes shoved up their arses, from being scalded with dangerous chemicals, and having all manner of depravities perfomed upon them in the name of science. Look up Siding Springs Monkeys and tell us how comfortable you are with that.)

      And the rest of you think that this is simply a campaign to force you to become vegetarian, which if that is your conclusion, then your problem is either dietary or a missing chromosome.

    • SSCS member says:

      12:16am | 04/08/11

      Best go back to school Peter, it has long been proven that neandertals had a larger brain than modern homo sapiens - ignorance is not bliss, nor excusable in the real world.

      Peta are facists, go look up the colloquial definition for it. Then look at their behaviour. If you do not agree with them then you are the enemy right ?

      and regarding some campaign matter for being a vegi, go see this website: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusian_catastrophe and have a good think about it… Stop the clap trap and allow ppl to choose for themselves. Who are you trying to convince here ? yourself by the sounds of it..

      So stop flapping your trap and start acting the act is all I am saying, people are so sick if you pansies that crap on with your theory based BS.

      If you do not like how people are hurting some animal or whatever then go do something about it for stuff sakes instead of your withering whining.

      We do not like how the whales are hunted, so we hunt the whalers !  not throw blood on women and scold children like some have done… pathetic really….

      Another example - look how the Greens in Tassie have been able to sort out native wood logging, they approach the big paper companies and educated them and now the industry is dead and its plantation only, they did not go and abuse some school kid for buying a ream paper… Because they are smart and understand how to get stuff done. Again not the Peta way, Peta are doing more harm than good and have some pretty screwed up ideas.

      Now rather than trying to sound educated (to which is is clear you are not) and come back with more incorrect nonesense, how about going and getting a paying job and become involved in an enlightened manner…

      oh by the way buddy…. most ppl in SSCS are vegan so shove that up your hat !

    • peter says:

      08:59am | 04/08/11

      SSCS member, I think you have proven my point, ergo QED.

    • Jack Mills says:

      10:22pm | 03/08/11

      IPeople who thinkk caging animals in Todays society Is not a “GOOD THING” yes a “GOOD THING”  are deluded.,  The people who are all about vuilding their identity into something that really doesn’t matter becuase they haven’t been shown how to do something real like creating social system reports that might actually have an impact on the making of policy which can create systianability and let us “Cage” animals to protect them on a symbiotic level with the rest of society well then just don’t complain if humans don’t have time for people who are effectively lobbying nothings to nothing.  Do something real and then cry fowl if you’re not being treated well.  Keep wasting peoples time and be treated like humans treat people who waste their time… be treated like you should be… be treated badly. Such a waste… people thinking they’re doing something good in their delusionary world.

    • Bicks says:

      10:25pm | 03/08/11

      I am all for animal rights, and wish I could support, however have, and continue, to refuse to contribute anything to the extremist organisations.  They do themselves a dis-service, as I know many good people who refuse to donate or support due to the type of people associated with the organisations.  What is it with PETA´s fascination with nude women!!!

      Skeptic has it exactly right.

      Sceptic says:06:07am | 03/08/11

      Perhaps the animal rights activists should start behaving like humans first?

    • NL says:

      10:37pm | 03/08/11

      Animal rights is such a 1st world luxury. When you struggle to feed your family in Africa, South America and the poorer parts of Asia do you really care how or where your source of protein comes from?

      This idea that we are somehow above the food chain is also a 1st world luxury. We are animals too. Nothing more and one day we will be extinct as all other animals before us. Deal with it,

    • Sarah says:

      10:48pm | 03/08/11

      While the overwhelming majority of these comments are shameful, they are in no way surprising, and epitomise the point expressed by the author.

      When people are targetted with such disdain and venom, for no other reason than their compassion in serving interests other than their own egocentric objectives, one cannot be surprised then that those responsible for targetting them have no respect or value for other species that cannot defend themselves. How cowardly to attack those trying to defend those without a voice, as it is the same people the voiceless need defending from.

      Well done Katrina.

    • John the Zombie says:

      12:53am | 04/08/11

      Sarah did you even read some of the comments made against the ppl who eat meat. Are you happy to accept that just becos they support a noble cause allows them to call ppl names and abuse them and even assualt ppl by throwing things at them

    • OchreBunyip says:

      07:48am | 04/08/11

      What goes around, comes around. If the animal activists want respect they should consider being respectful of others.

    • Sereena says:

      10:57pm | 03/08/11

      Thank God for animal rights activists.  Our society, the way it is now, puts a very low value on human life, nevertheless animal life.  I think they are amazing people and we need more of them, because animals are being exploited, used and abused by humans more and more.  I’ve done my share of protests and marches for animal rights, why?  Because animals are innocents, they need protection, usually from humans that use them for profit in some way.  Just because you are apathetic or unresponsive to the plight of animals, surely you would not put down those who would fight for such a noble cause?  Such cynical individuals are surely a sad bunch.

    • Bick says:

      01:04am | 04/08/11

      Many people, such as my self support animal rights (not the extremist view) and refuse to donate or support because of the left wing looney crazies occupying the organisations.  Everything I have seen of PETA for example are unwashed hippy loosers without jobs protesting in the streets and naked exhibitionist, hypocritical women strutting around poor taste adds!!!  Shape up your own ship and your movement may get some support - until then my dollars and support stat firmly in my pocket.

    • marley says:

      07:20am | 04/08/11

      I’m nor apathetic to the cause of animals - I care about animals, I support WIRES and the local animal shelter, and I have made a special effort to have a bird and frog friendly garden.  I oppose groups like PETA, however, who would deny me the right to have a pet, and who euthenaze perfectly healthy animals.  Exactly how does killing dogs and cat further the cause of animals?

    • peter says:

      08:42am | 04/08/11

      Marley, currently in Australia 250,000 healthy dogs and cats are euthanased each year by local pounds and the RSPCA simply due to “oversupply”.  In other words, your perceived right to own an animal and the ease with which you can buy one is condemning all these animals to death.

      If you used your brain you would realise that tightening the restrictions on pet ownership even a little would save countless lives of the very animals you accuse PETA of killing.  PETA don’t oppose pet ownership, merely the commodification of animals. It’s as easy to buy a dog/cat/bird/rabbit/guinea pig as it is to buy a litre of milk.

    • Al says:

      09:05am | 04/08/11

      Peter, and yet how many cats and dogs does the RSPCA re-home?
      Even if it was a pathetic 5% (and I am sure it is MUCH higher) based on PETAs own figures they end up destroying (i.e. Killing) 98% of cats/dogs that are ‘rescued’ by them, which would YOU rather support?
      As for ‘PETA don’t oppose pet ownership’ actualy, yes they do.
      PETA oppose:
      Animal ownership (i.e. Pets, Farms etc.)
      Animal confinement (Zoos or sanctuaries)
      No medicines that contain animal products or were produced using animal testing (there go all those nice vaccines and a large number of medications).
      PETA are a bunch of extremist nutcases.
      In their own words they seek ‘Complete Animal Liberation’, now sit back and think on what that actualy means.
      Again I state - do I support animal crulety - definately not.
      Do I support organisations who seek the removal of our rights as omnivores to choose what we eat or to remove life saving treatments as they don’t meat their own strict (if absurd) moral rules - definately not.

    • marley says:

      03:20pm | 04/08/11

      @Peter -  I’m using my brain pretty well, thanks very much.  For instance, I know that the RSCPA and its equivalents here and elsewhere actually try to find homes for the animals they take in.  PETA doesn’t.  It just kills them.

      I know that many SPCA shelters in America and Canada, and some at least in Australia, are “no kill” shelters.  Animals are only put down if they have severe medical or behavioural issues. 

      And I know, as you appear not to, that the RSPCA tightened rules on animal ownership years ago.  You can’t get an animal unless it’s been desexed, and in the ACT at least you get a home visit from the RSPCA before they release the animal to you. 

      So, why don’t you engage your own brain and do a bit of reading about what other animal welfare organizations do to promote responsible pet ownership.  A lot more than PETA, for sure.  But I guess, feeding and caring for unwanted animals might put a dent in PETA’s advertising budget.

    • peter says:

      09:17am | 05/08/11

      Marley, that’s simply lies. And you know it.  You need no documentation, identification, age limit or qulaification to buy an animal. Even if you have been convicted of animal cruelty you can walk into a pet shop and buy as many animals as you like.  You can also buy animals unregulated on the internet of through the classifieds.

      Also, the RSPCA does not have the power to tighten rules on animal ownership.  That only comes through government legislation.  But I suspect you know that, too.  And SPCA shelters are not “no kill”; these are the domain of other organisations such as Doggie Rescue.  Animals in RSPCA shelters are put down at the rate of 5,000 a week.  This is due mostly to them not having the facilities to cope with the constant influx of dumped pets. 

      You might care to do the same research you urge others to do.  I’ve been involved - hands on -  in this issue for over A DECADE.  It’s liars and weasels like you who perpetuate the cruelty.

    • Thomas says:

      12:44am | 04/08/11

      I love animals, I treat them with respect and and hate to see them mistreated. I also, however, own pets, eat meat and enjoy a (good) zoo or animal park. PETA and people like them would take away members of my family who I love, they would force me into an entirely unnatural state of eating only vegetables, and deny me and my children the education and entertainment provided by zoos and animal parks. We can love and respect animals without treating them as some holy thing that is better than us.

    • Sam says:

      01:25am | 04/08/11

      I would have more respect for an organisation like PETA if they didn’t come out with ridiculous statements such as criticising Barak Obama for swatting a mosquito on TV.

      They have also deliberately misled people in at least one campaign I can think of - that involving a boycott of Aussie wool because of the use of mulesing.  If you recall, PETA managed to pursuade Pink to appear in a video condemning the practice without telling her the reasons why it was done.  She later withdrew her support.

      Plenty of people jumped on this bandwagon without knowing the facts and it cost the wool industry a considerable amount of money for no reason.

      Although excruciating beyond words, it’s far preferable for the sheep to have mulesing done - the pain would last a relatively short time and be forgotten, and it would allow them to live a healthy life.  PETA would rather see them die slowly, being eaten from the inside out by maggots, beginning with the genitals.

    • peter says:

      08:49am | 04/08/11

      Sam, if you only had half a brain it might occur to you that the choice is not whether or not to mules a sheep.  It’s about doing it humanely.  It takes just a quick jab of local anasthetic to avoid the pain which you acknowledge as “excruciating”.  Had it not been for PETA’s campaign, millions of merinos would continue to suffer needlessly.  As it is, many merino breeders have been able to selectively breed sheep without the folds of skin that need removing.  You can thank PETA for that.

    • MaryVee says:

      06:35am | 04/08/11

      What i find amusing is the comments here by people claiming that we are part of the food chain and how in nature other animals hunt out other animals for survival.. blah blah blah

      how many of these twats get up off their fat arse to go hunting food without the use of weapons as is done in nature ?

    • kurt says:

      08:44am | 04/08/11

      how many farmers go till a field without a tractor?
      (sh#t argument)

    • Al says:

      09:11am | 04/08/11

      I would, but that would be considered ‘animal crulety’ as it is not killing the animal in a ‘humane’ manner.
      Funny isn’t it.

    • Andy says:

      06:55am | 04/08/11

      Whats wrong with dope smoking?!?>!?!

    • TrueBlue says:

      08:49am | 04/08/11

      Any member of PETA or other terrorist organization which hide behind “compassion and guilt” should be hunted down and exterminated.

      Your either part of the Human race or NOT in it. Fence sitters only get wood up their arse.

    • peter says:

      10:15am | 04/08/11

      ...and here we see yet another fine specimen of humanity; a spectacular hoister of his own petard.  I don’t think I need to add anything further than QED.

    • Al says:

      09:09am | 04/08/11

      Many ‘Animal Rights Groups’ are also the same bunch encouraging us to use ‘renewable resources’.
      Why is it so difficult for them to understand that, managed correctly:
      Wood is a renewable resource.
      Animals are a renewable resource (and can be used for much wider applications than the vast majority of plants).
      And yet they seem to encourage the use of ‘fake leather’ and ‘fake fur’ which is a by product of the oil industry i.e. NOT a renewable resource.
      Any answers?

    • Mark_veg_as_of_2_months_ago says:

      09:26am | 04/08/11

      Risto my friend you have said it perfectly earlier:

      “Humans will destroy everything on this planet and then destroy themselves.”

      If we have no compassion for other beings then we have no compassion for each other. Not having compassion means we are all doomed.

    • jim says:

      09:51am | 04/08/11

      im all for treating animals well and against cruelty, however until rabid animal loving loonies develop a sense of *balance* (no - that one disease ridden fruitbat is not more important than twenty families) they will continue to be laughed at for their extreme views. PETAs wheeling out of dim witted celebrities to push their cause also makes them look like a bunch of idiots.

    • Bella says:

      10:32am | 04/08/11

      Having read all the comments, it’s clear that many people feel that activists are annoying because they seem to be trying to convert people and many of you have compared this to those who preach religion in an attempt to convert.

      Most people don’t want to see an animal suffer. But most people haven’t got a clue what happens to the animals that feed and clothe us, that our cosmetics and medicines are tested on or who are used for our entertainment. They assume that most people are like them- kind to animals. The truth sickens them. That’s why we try so hard to get the message across: because people honestly haven’t any idea about the reality of animal-using industries. Millions of creatures suffering needlessly is heartbreaking and a disgrace. I think we’ve got a moral obligation to ensure people are making informed choices. I try not to close my eyes and ears to any kind of moral issue and make choices about whether to buy clothes made in sweatshops, buy fair-trade products or use products that harm the environment. I don’t always make the most ethical choice but at least I’m well informed. What’s wrong with a few of us who care educating people about where their food and medicine really comes from?

    • Al says:

      10:50am | 04/08/11

      Nothing wrong with educating people about these issues.
      However groups like PETA don’t want education, they regulalry use misinformation (or even blatant lies) to try to covert people to their cause.
      They even try to hide what their cause actualy is.
      Try this quote regarding the destruction of property and research materials as well as putting human lives at risk in the pursit of their goals (such as actions undertaken by the ALF) from President Ingrid Newkirk:
      “We neither support or condemn these actions but understand them”.
      Sounds suspicously like they support these actions don’t you say.
      The same as most people don’t understand PETAs goal of “Total and complete animal liberation” (another quote from President Ingrid Newkirk).

    • Dan says:

      11:18am | 04/08/11

      @ Bella - if it was simply accurate information provision then I don’t think anyone would object. Its the one sided “oh my god the sky is falling in” rhetoric (designed to increase donations to PETA and friends) that insult the intelligence of Australians and annoy people.

      Its also the “I used to be like you and now I know better” attitude. I used to be an activist supporter until I realised that all they ever did was complain and that if they ever said “everything is actually pretty good” their organisation would have no need for existence.

      So I used to be like you and now I know better, I think you just need a bit more life experience. Does that statement make you resent me? Now you know how we feel.

    • peter says:

      11:15pm | 04/08/11

      Bec, you wouldn’t know “intelligent” if it bit you in the arse.  Your linked article is neither intelligent or factual. It presented no reference for its alleged survey.  And the fact that it used the term “birdseed brigade” on several occasions clearly shows that it is far from objective.

      Big FAIL, girlie.  But then you’ve highlighted your lack of intelligence over many posts here.  And you’ve failed to answer the question posed to you: what exactly is your objection to the ethical treatment of animals?  Why would you fight something you can’t possibly win on moral grounds?

    • marley says:

      09:40am | 07/08/11

      Straw man argument - one of the weakest of logical fallacies.  Where or when did Bec say or imply that she objected to the ethical treatment of animals?

    • john taylor says:

      01:11pm | 04/08/11

      PETA - People Euthanasing Thousands of Animals.

      Sorry, ICB on PETA.  I would treat an activist as a human if such activists would behave like a rational and non-hypocritical example of one.

      Also - see this:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9ijLulwUTY

    • Shaere says:

      01:12pm | 04/08/11

      Sam - if the farmers practised good husbandry, their sheep wouldn’t get flyblown. It is because the farmers are too lazy and too stingy to practice decent husbandry that thir sheep get fly blown. And they are too stingy to use anaesthetic. And too apathetic to breed sheep without the folds. If it wasn’t for PETA this cruelty would go unnoticed. And - you - mentioned that it was “excruciating beyond words” - yet you support this cruelty when there are uncruel options.

    • Linda says:

      01:17pm | 04/08/11

      Dan - the reason activists complain is because it actually isn’t pretty good. We’d love to go out of business. The day there is no animal cruelty, I’ll sit back and relax and say Thank God.
      Can’t see that day coming in my lifetime.
      PETA, Animals Australia, Animal Liberation etc etc ec - would love to go out of existence. But the majority of the human race that supports animal cruelty either wilfully or through wilful ignorance makes that an impossibility.

    • Dan says:

      04:03pm | 04/08/11

      Linda - you are obviously a foot slogger and I admire your passion. But look deeper, does PETA as an organisation really want to go out of business?? Of course not. Neither does Greenpeace or the Cancer Council or any of those groups.

      Some things are actually pretty good at the moment, just hard to see when you listen to all the chicken little dialogue.

    • Ella says:

      01:17pm | 04/08/11

      I’ve just read all of these comments, and for the most part I am pretty horrified. I’m 13 years old and a die hard animal rights activist. This whole past year in school we have pretty much been suffocated with talks and speeches about not discriminating again those because of sexual orientation, ability level, gender, age, race, etc. I feel as though it’s safe to say that now a days this state of mind is drilled into the heads of kids my age, and as a society we generally frown upon discrimination in these areas. I give speeches at conferences and such about oceanic conservation, speaking about issues regarding shark finning, whaling, and the massacre of dolphins in countries including, but by all means not limited to, China, Japan, Faroe Islands, Solomon Islands, etc. Before each of these speeches I make it perfectly clear that it is not the everyday citizens of these countries that the ones making this happen and that many of them don’t agree with what is happening, because the very last thing I want is for people to go home from my speech thinking “Oh my gosh! Japan is so mean! They kill dolphins!” because I have seen that happen before at other speeches. We’re always told not to discriminate against a group of people because some of them are a certain way. I will admit, I have seen some animal rights activists behave as “animals” as some of you have put it, and that’s horrifying to me and many of the people who I have crossed paths with in activism, but just because they’re going to be that way doesn’t mean you all should call us fricken pot-smoking hippies who treat all people like dirt. That’s not at all how all of us are, and you are ignorant is that is how you classify us. I have met some of the most passionate, caring, and determined people in my life through activism. Like I said, I’m a die hard animal rights activist and I do what I can to prevent the cruel treatment of animals, but at the same time I’m a realist. I acknowledge the fact that it is not realistic to conform the whole world to our beliefs, and to be completely honest with you I do believe there should be somewhat of a balance like everything in life. I have absolutely nothing against meat eaters. However, I do have something against meat eaters that ignorantly refer to us as stupid pot-smoking hippie terrorists. I mean honestly, that just sounds kind of stupid if you look at it. Talk about an oxymoron if there ever was one. I’ve seen people my age be hurt to the point that it affected their health by discriminatory remarks, and though you may think we are filthy animals who treat people like crap, surprisingly enough we actually do have feelings. I’ve kind of gotten used to the regular labels like “heartless, ignorant, retarded, racist, uneducated, annoying b****, etc.” I’ve only gotten used to this because I hear it almost on a daily basis. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt. I’m confident in my values so I try not to let it get to me, but it’s not as if that works all the time. I’ve had people tell me they were “laughing their ass off at this idiotic child” or “good luck on your blind quest”. It doesn’t matter what level it’s on, putting every single person who has in interest in the welfare of animals is being stereotypical. I’m not saying I agree with everything that PETA preaches, but I wouldn’t be so quick to judge their hypocrisy. Check yourself first. Reading these comments and realizing how many people there are out there who classify us to extremes like “terrorists” was a bit of a reality check. Those things hurt.

    • john taylor says:

      02:54pm | 04/08/11

      Ella - do your research and you will find that your PETA heroes have not only condoned domestic terrorism, they have provided funding and support for those who have engaged in it.  They have also suggested that it is better for a child to die rather than provide the child with insulin (derived from pig products) - this did not prevent the pureblind hypocrisy of a very high up PETA member who was insulin dependant defend HER use of insulin as ‘different’ because there was a greater good in her being alive to save animals.  Perhaps you might like to consider PETA’s stand on assistance dogs - they don’t approve of them.  They want pet ownership banned and some of the more loopy ones advocate a ban on bird watching as it is exploitation.  FFS.  And yeah - words and opinions hurt - so I was not overly impressed on this column when one of your fellow travellers stated that because I preferred to harvest my own meat and fish (I hunt and fish) I was on the same par as a rapist or child molester.  Gee whizz - now that was intelligent was it not?  Be confident in your values, but unless you can cop it, don’t sling it.  That is what being a grown up is all about.  PETA is a load of BS - watch this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9ijLulwUTY

    • peter says:

      06:46pm | 04/08/11

      Ah yes, why am I not surprised that John Taylor would lean on a Penn & Teller show for support.  What next, Morecombe & Wise,  Abbott & Costello?

    • Servaas says:

      08:48pm | 04/08/11

      Does animals have actual rights? I doubt it but would like to hear you opinion on it Ella.

    • john taylor says:

      12:55pm | 05/08/11

      Any of those duos would make a damn sight more sense than any of the (vegan) pigswill that PETA have to offer.  The Penn and Teller stuff is verifiable.  Prove it wrong.  If a couple of comedians can show the BS on PETA, how is it all you aware hand knitted human haters cannot?

    • Ella says:

      02:06pm | 14/08/11

      John, you might want to analyze what you read a little bit better. I actually said that I don’t agree with everything that PETA preaches…
      In fact, for the most part I don’t agree with them as an organization. What it’s looking like is that you are a classic example of what this entire article is all about, people who make stereotypes out of those fighting for the better treatment of wildlife. Obviously, since I have never called you a rapist, I am not on the same page as my so called fellow “traveller”. Just because the two of us believe in treating animals better than we currently do doesn’t mean we’re the same, and once again, that is ignorant of you to think so. I think you’ve heard what I’m trying to say, but clearly have not listened to what I’m trying to say. Also, if you had read my article, I’m not necessarily pushy about my beliefs. I know that there are meateaters out there, and for the most part I don’t have a problem with them. That’s their lifestyle choice, not mine. However, what I do have a problem with is ignorance. I have chosen to live a meat free life because that is what I personally believe in. Heck, my entire family still eats meat all the time in front of me! For some people, vegetarianism is unrealistic and in some cases unhealthy, and I understand why that can’t happen. Like I said before, not my problem. If they need meat, I’m not going to keel over in agony. In fact, I generally don’t tell people I’m veggie unless they are offering meat. It’s honestly not that big of a deal. I stand up for what I believe in, but I don’t shove it in people’s faces. And like I said, I can handle criticism. That whole golden rule thing we all grew up living with? Well, crazy enough I actually try to listen to that sometimes. When I am dealing with people who I don’t agree with, I don’t spazz and cuss them out while calling them crazy things like “terrorist”. That’s not me, and it pisses me off when people put me into that category of rude extremists. You’re right, I did say those remarks hurt… but why would I ever say they didn’t? Just because it hurts doesn’t mean I can’t handle it. To be completely truthful with you, sometimes I go back and read all the hate people have sent to me because it gets me fired up to keep fighting for what I believe in. At the end of the day, that stuff probably makes me stronger. I guess I owe all those haters a bit of a thankyou! grin But the long and short of it is, just because I don’t let hate get to me doesn’t mean other people will be the same way. I honestly don’t think people realize how much prejudice affects people. I only feel so strongly about this because I’ve seen it happen. Both of my little sister’s best friends have had eating disorders resorting from this sort of thing, and if there’s ever a chance to stop it that’s the point. For instance, you like to hunt and fish for food. Personally, I wouldn’t choose that for myself, but just because I disagree with the way you supply yourself with food doesn’t mean I’m going to classify you as a dirty heartless animal killer with no soul. That’s the category we are being put into, and if you ask me to but all of us in there is just plain STUPID (and once again IGNORANT!)

    • Sarah says:

      01:40pm | 04/08/11

      As the dominant species on planet earth we have an obligation to protect and nurture the environment and animals we share it with….not a right to consume, exploit and profit from everything we can get our hands on. Just because we can, and we have, does not mean we should continue. It is time for humanity to evolve beyond our greedy and barbaric history.

    • Al says:

      02:01pm | 04/08/11

      There is another fact people like to overlook.
      The most successfull group in the USA regarding wild animal conservation and diversity is run by and its members are nearly solely HUNTERS.
      Thats right, hunters want there to be a greater number of wild animals and sustainable populations so that they are able to continue that practice.
      Whereas groups like PETA would seek to ban hunting all together without actualy doing anything to help those populations.
      Funny isn’t it.

    • Sharon says:

      08:43am | 05/08/11

      Getting your thrills from torture and killing is sick, so please don’t try and justify it with such self-serving rubbish.

      “I ask people why they have deer heads on their walls.  They always say because it’s such a beautiful animal.  There you go.  I think my mother is attractive, but I have photographs of her.”  ~Ellen DeGeneres

    • marley says:

      02:40pm | 05/08/11

      @Sharon - and watching deer and elk starve to death because they’ve overpopulated and eaten all the vegetation, while you’re too squeamish to intervene and cull the herd, puts you on the moral high ground?  I don’t think so.

    • Sharon says:

      06:57pm | 05/08/11

      Actually marley I support euthanasia to prevent unavoidable suffering, for all animals including humans. The key is in our definition of unavoidable. Humans continue to destroy and dominate the natural habitat of other animals and then use the quick cheap solution of killing them when they can’t survive with the diminishing natural resources we leave them. Truly shameful!

      Your suggestion that hunters are really only participating in this activity for altruistic reasons is ludicrously amusing.

      The fact that man knows right from wrong proves his intellectual superiority to the other creatures; but the fact that he can do wrong proves his moral inferiority to any creatures that cannot.  ~Mark Twain, What Is Man, 1906

    • marley says:

      12:38pm | 06/08/11

      @Sharon - I didn’t suggest hunters only participate in hunting for altruistic reasons.  I suggested that their contribution to management of the numbers by killing deer for food is no more ethically reprehensible than letting the animals starve. 

      And yes, humans do interfere with the natural habitat of animals.  But if you want to house 7 billion people, they’re going to live somewhere.  They’re going to need to clear and farm land for food.  They’re going to need to build roads and railways.  All of this interferes with habitat and changes the natural resources available to animals.  So yes, then culling becomes a better option than letting the animals starve.  Or would you prefer to cull the people?  Because those are the options, in spite of all the woolly-minded rhetoric from PETA.

      As to knowing right from wrong, the problem with that is that you believe eating animals is wrong. l don’t.  So your quote doesn’t apply.

    • Cat says:

      02:47pm | 04/08/11

      hand on my heart, I’ve only met a handful calling themselves animal rights advocates who were not raving. I’ve been heavily involved with animal welfare so I get to meet a broad spetrum.

      Newkirk might be capable of a reasonable argument, but she is also capable of dribbling at the ears and frothing at the mouth with pure and unadulterated crazy talk - and yeah, her support of those who have taken up terrorist action to “make their point” is worth a mention I would think!

      I’m not lacking in understanding the arguments put forth for the range of views that come under “animal rights” I just don’t agree with all of them and it isn’t a knee jerk opposition, it is a thought out one - because it is alarmingly common to hear animal rights people propose “solutions” and “action” which cause more harn than good simply because they don’t know what the hell they are talking about!

      So sorry, i won’t be giving anyone who says they are an animal rights supporter a pat on the back simply by virtue of the label and I won’t feel the slightest bit guilty about pointing out major logic fails and pitfalls when the passionately ignorant try to make me sign a petition. I get 100% behind people who have done the hard yards and really come up with campaigns worth supporting - and it sure as hell ain’t PETA

    • Al says:

      03:06pm | 04/08/11

      Finaly, a voice of reason recognising the issues. Well done and said.

    • james hunter says:

      03:21pm | 04/08/11

      Amimal activists are realy great deep fried in bread crumbs

    • Sharon says:

      06:56pm | 04/08/11

      Most humans choose the deliberate ignorance option when it comes to the brutal truth about the way animals are treated.

      If there really is nothing wrong with the way we treat animals (Australia alone slaughters over 500 MILLION every year), then the meat, egg and dairy industries should be totally willing to open their shed and slaughterhouse doors and encouraging public and school tours. Can you just imagine the parents and teachers queuing up for those?

      Our society takes great joy and pride in our fruit and veg gardens and the complete plant food processing cycle including harvesting, and yet the same can certainly not be said of animal products. The reason is obvious.

      Animal rights is a growing issue of concern as more people choose to open their eyes, minds and hearts to the inconvenient truth. There will of course always be those who prefer selfish ignorance, or who just don’t care.

      This poem provides some food for thought:

      If neatly chopped up animals
      Sit on a butcher’s tray,
      No one will gasp and feign offence
      Or turn the other way.
      Young eyes will not be shielded
      From the severed body parts,
      As folks stand there debating over
      Kidneys, brains or hearts.
      But dare display a picture
      From a day or two before,
      Of the animals, their parts intact
      Upon the slaughter floor
      With eyes rolled back in terror
      As they stand in line and wait
      For the bloody-aproned slaughterman
      To seal their gruesome fate
      The reaction will be hostile
      “How dare you let them see!”
      “You might upset the children!”
      “Disgraceful! Goodness me!”
      The tragic source of meat, it seems
      Must never reach young eyes,
      Instead folk try to hide the truth
      With “happy farmyard” lies.
      Is this because the grown-ups know
      If children knew their fate,
      With one accord they’d all refuse
      The meat upon their plate. (J. Moxham)

    • Cat says:

      10:48am | 05/08/11

      There never used to be slaughter houses (and in fact, there are not slaughter houses everywhere in the world now), the kids were quite able to see animals slaughtered in ways which were far more inhumane than current slaughter house practise and you know what? - we didn’t stop eating meat as a species.

    • Sharon says:

      04:56pm | 05/08/11

      True Cat, BUT, back then in the good ‘ol ignorant days children were taught not to question anything, to be seen and not heard, to accept everything that adults told them as the truth.  And adults generally tended to believe everything the government, police, doctors and anyone in any supposed position of “authority” told them was the truth.

      Now thank goodness, we know better, or at least some of us do :o)

      For me it’s all about doing less harm. Can’t be anything wrong with that now, surely?

    • Cat says:

      09:38pm | 08/08/11

      I assure you I am talking modern times not ancient times - I think perhaps you need to visit some farms, modern ones, and talk to some farm kids and their parents before you write them off as ignorant or bizarely mind-controlled for failing to share your disdain re. meat eating and slaughter or your personal level of paranoid conspiracy theory. Doing less harm sounds like a good intention, and you know what they say about those. I wish a few more people intent on “doing less harm” would spend more time learning and less time opining and patting themselves on the back for “knowing better” than everyone else, even those who have day to day knowledge.

    • Sharon says:

      06:43pm | 09/08/11

      @Cat - I spent several years in rural Australia and have seen many examples of typical animal husbandry and cruelty first hand. I also know a few people from farming backgrounds who are uncomfortable with the way animals are treated.

      I will never forget one young lad crying over the pending slaughter of one of the steers he had helped “raise”, and his father telling him he just had to “toughen up”.

      I for one am much happier encouraging my children to choose the path of less harm, and they certainly are too.

      It’s all about choice and it seems to me that more are choosing less harm.

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      07:24pm | 04/08/11

      Katrina, getting back to your original premise - why do ‘certain’ (my addition) animal activists get a bad rap.

      You only have to read the comments from some of your supporters to understand why. Peter Singer or the RSPCA has much more respect without falling to this level of aggression, exaggeration, hyperbole, anthropomorphism, abuse, insults and quite simply a feeble knowledge of science.

      For my part, I’ve read and for the most part agree with Peter Singer as he presents a logical, and I think compelling argument in Animal Liberation. The ‘supporters’ comments below detract from his good work.

      Ruby.
      The commenters on The Punch articles are well below par in intelligence and compassion. Save your reasonable, logical arguments for people more worthy.
      Too many right-wing, bigoted rednecks among them.
      This sort of aggressive attitude towards animal rights activists, vegetarians, vegans etc is common among insecure individuals.

      KylieIsQueen
      It’s a well-known FACT that serial murderers start off torturing animals before moving on to torturing and killing humans. So what does that say about most of you?

      MIchelle
      I fear though, that many, are just ignorant and can’t think beyond their next meal, which is probably a Big Mac or KFC!

      Linda
      Heart disease is 100% preventable.

      Amy
      Thank you for this intelligent and articulate article. What a shame that the same can’t be said for many of the commenters here.

      Peter
      Gutless, amoral and selfish are 3 words that most accurately describe the meatheads on this blog
      Unfortunately, the sociopathic tendencies of Al and others show how far we have to go

      Jon
      Think about what that animal went through, it was born, it slept, it ate food, it felt emotions, it dreamt at night, it was scared when the farmer came near.

    • LC says:

      08:02pm | 07/08/11

      “The commenters on The Punch articles are well below par in intelligence and compassion. Save your reasonable, logical arguments for people more worthy.
      Too many right-wing, bigoted rednecks among them.
      This sort of aggressive attitude towards animal rights activists, vegetarians, vegans etc is common among insecure individuals.”
      “I fear though, that many, are just ignorant and can’t think beyond their next meal, which is probably a Big Mac or KFC!”
      “Thank you for this intelligent and articulate article. What a shame that the same can’t be said for many of the commenters here.”
      C’mon mate, you can do better than personal attacks, surely. If you want respect, name-calling and stereotyping is not the way to go about it.

      “Gutless, amoral and selfish are 3 words that most accurately describe the meatheads on this blog
      Unfortunately, the sociopathic tendencies of Al and others show how far we have to go”
      More opponent bashing. I picked this out in particular to say this:
      What you’ve said here is quite tame compared to terms PETA has used to describe those who eat meat, which include “Murderer” “Torturer” “Rapist” and “Pedophile”. They send out death threats to hunters and at least one fashion designer. Then they turn around and demand respect. That’s beyond laughable. Keep this sort of crap up and you’ll never even come close to getting to where it is you want to go.

      “It’s a well-known FACT that serial murderers start off torturing animals before moving on to torturing and killing humans. So what does that say about most of you?”
      Again, even the more nasty types of animal farming, do not come close to the level of cruelty and vindictiveness demonstrated be serial killers who torture animals. That strawman’s been dead for a while now, no use trying to resurrect it.

      “Heart disease is 100% preventable.”
      No it isn’t. Especially if it’s genetic.

      “Think about what that animal went through, it was born, it slept, it ate food, it felt emotions, it dreamt at night, it was scared when the farmer came near. “

      Would that not apply if it was out in the wild (except perhaps the farmer bit)? Do you think the lion or whatever that wanted it’s next meal is gonna think that? Do you think that in pre-civilization days Ogg the Caveman Hunter would’ve thought that? No. I accept this whenever I eat a meat dish, and I have no problems with that, and nothing but respect for the animal that’s died to make that meal.

      Look, I don’t care about what you choose to eat or choose not to eat. That is your decision and really doesn’t bother me either way. But if you demand that I, or anyone else, follow suit, then you and I are going to have a problem.

      You petition for global veganism, but I promise you’ll eat your words when you find out all that’s left of the Amazon has be to cut down to use the extremely fertile soil to grow enough soybeans and lentils for the global population, or when prices for the aforementioned products goes through the roof because of the unprecedented demand hike.
      Just like people who religiously use public transport and demand petrol prices be raised to $2-3/litre to somehow make themselves feel better will regret opening their mouth if they ever have to drive somewhere (because public transport does not take you everywhere) or when the system collapses (it’s already close to breaking point in Melbourne at least) because of too much demand.

    • Kim Hart says:

      07:36pm | 04/08/11

      I seem to remember footage of proud animal rights activists contaminating sheep feed with lamb mince. Of course I suspect they were aware of the fact that this is how ‘Mad Cow’ disease began.
      So they take measures to possibly infect hundreds of thousand of animals with a similar virus just to make a point. I would call that EXTREME. I can only assume that they were aware of these risks and decided to scare lamb consumers into boycotting the product. That sounds like an act of violence carried out to induce political aims. That would be TERRORISM. They performed these actions after conducting a clandestine night time operation into the feed lot. Sound pretty MILITANT to me.
      Animal rights activists such as PETA don’t have a problem with animal abuse but with the idea that people should choose not to be vegans. They abuse those who follow our biological instincts to be omnivores.

    • Lara Drew says:

      11:30pm | 04/08/11

      Thank-you Katrina for a wonderful article! You rock! Atleast someone thoughtful and intelligent is bringing this very important issue to the surface – something that needs to be discussed and exposed more often. I like what you have said here: “From the suffragettes and second-wave feminists to Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela, it is those determined to offer alternative ideas to the status quo that have resulted in legal changes and protections being extended to marginalised groups – in these cases, of people – previously denied them. Originally perceived as social pariahs, as time passes their ideas become the accepted ‘norm’, societies progress and we wonder how we could ever have been so ‘backward’.” SO TRUE!!! You are so inspiring Katrina – thank-you for writing/raising awareness about this.

    • Linda says:

      09:28am | 05/08/11

      Dan - name one thing that is “pretty good”.
      And I’ll name 100 that aren’t. 1000 if you like. The list is seemingly endless.
      You really think people with cancer don’t want it to go away? seriously? You think people dying of cancer want that disease? Name one.

    • Amy Johnson says:

      07:40pm | 05/08/11

      animal rights is about giving all beings the right to not have to suffering unecesarily…... all the stuff we do to animals, even eating them is unecessary

    • Risto Siljanoski says:

      12:51am | 06/08/11

      I applaud PETA for publishing the above photo.
      It is completely natural, artistic and simply beautiful.

    • Marten says:

      09:55pm | 06/08/11

      Sure, we need to kill animals for food, etc…

      but keeping them in factory farms? feeding them as much antibiotics as we do food? forcing them in such small spaces, on top of metal bars, with (in piggeries) their ears, tails, balls and teeth cut? all these handlings are needed because we force them to live in such unnatural conditions.

      my argument is not with killing for food, it’s the unnecessary torture we subject these beings to, on a scale of many billions a year. is this really who we are a species?

      Mundus vult decipi

    • Lily says:

      03:11pm | 09/08/11

      “Don’t bother. The commenters on The Punch articles are well below par in intelligence and compassion. Save your reasonable, logical arguments for people more worthy!” - Ruby, you said a mouthful.

      And then there are the hypocrites who proudly claim to be omnivores or carnivores but are too gutless to kill the animal themselves.  If you can’t do the dirty work, you shouldn’t eat it.

      We do not have to eat animals or animal products in this country and can live long, healthy lives without doing so.  FACT.  We choose to eat them, and in doing so condemn an animal to a short, miserable life and a brutal, terrifying death - particularly if your meat of choice is pork or chicken.

      It’s a real shame that many of the people on here are allowed to breed.  What short-sighted, uncompassionate, self-absorbed, ignorant neanderthals most of you are.

    • Tony says:

      10:51pm | 10/08/11

      At the author, my misgivings with you and your ilk are due to your priorities being severely compromised. I saw this article checking the news from home while travelling in South East Asia. Today I was openly offered child porn on the streets and that only begins to scratch the depth of human misery that exists in the world. Compared to this, my only gripe with McDonalds is when the fries come out cold.

 

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