This is not meant to sound heartless. The emotions surrounding the latest shocking spate of P-plate deaths are obviously still raw. And as the families and friends of those who have died work through their grief, it is understandable that they will sometimes lash out and look for external forces to blame as they deal with their loss.

But if kids are going to keep killing themselves at this rate - and kill or injure other people as a result of their reckless or incompetent driving - the time has come to stop molly-coddling these young people and their deluded friends.

The time has also come to stop offering the parents of reckless P-plate drivers nothing other than uncritical sympathy, as in many cases they too have played a role in allowing their children to behave in a way which endangered them and other people.

I suspect that many people are now heartily sick of these ritualised displays of public grief where we see groups of kids standing around a telegraph pole heaving under the weight of flowers and photographs, and asking aloud: how could this have happened?

The answer is obvious. Dead obvious.

This happened because your friend didn’t know how to drive. Or drove too fast. Got really drunk and drove. Was so distracted by having four friends in the car that he was more interested in impressing them than paying attention to the road.

It takes a special kind of genius to kill yourself in a car these days. Unless you’ve got an old bomb most cars these days are so safe that you really have to try.

The statistics for P-plate deaths this year are sickening. In NSW alone 19 P-platers drivers have died this year - that’s almost one-third the number killed in 2009, and we are just into February.

Some of the accidents have been incomprehensible in their recklessness. The January crash which claimed five young lives in Mill Park, Victoria, involved a 19-year old P-plate driver doing an estimated 140kmh, and with a blood alcohol reading of 0.19 when the legal limit is zero.

Only yesterday police confirmed that a 21-year-old P-plater who died in Waverley, NSW, early Monday morning had been seen chucking burnouts in a carpark just hours before he flipped the car and killed himself.

And while witnesses have said that speed was not a factor in the weekend’s crash in Colyton, NSW, which claimed the lives of three youngsters, the driver had four passengers jammed into his car in violation of the new restrictions on passenger numbers for P-platers in NSW. It was 3am. One of the kids in the car was just 15.

The Colyton crash had the added horrible angle of the twin sisters of one of the dead boys learning of his death via Facebook. It was their 20th birthday and they were checking messages on the social media site only to find that their friends had written “RIP” on their brother’s page.

It’s hard to imagine a more harrowing way to learn of a loved one’s death. The family’s reaction is understandable. But the broader debate, in which readers have attacked the police for insensitivity, is absurd. The police simply were not in a position to confirm this young man’s death because they had not been able to identify his body. Social media isn’t subject to any of the rigours which the police have to satisfy in making such a grave announcement.

It’s an insult for anyone to attack the police over this, especially given the fact they it’s young officers who work through the night dealing first-hand with the carnage so often wrought by P-plate drivers.

And as always the reaction to all of these deaths has included the empty “why?” question from other kids, standing around telegraph poles which there’s every chance they too will one day be wrapped around as they fail to learn from the death of their friend.

Speaking as we were of Facebook, if you want to see a powerful example of the youthful conviction that death is something that happens to other people, type the words “Victoria P-Plate Rules SUCK” into Google.

It will lead you to a Facebook site which at the latest count has 5903 fans, and is devoted to the mindless denunciation of the restrictions on passenger numbers proposed by the Victorian Government.

Given that this is the mindset the community is up against, it’s frustrating that governments are still only talking about implementing much more graphic and direct student education about road safety, and that defensive driving education is not a mandatory part of getting your P-plates.

Ultimately though there is only so much that governments can do or should be expected to do.

Parents have more power than anyone to keep their kids safe, or safer.

It is hard to see what’s going on in the heads of parents whose kids turn up with their first car decorated with the entire accessory section from Super Cheap Autos. Letting your kid pimp their car is basically an invitation for them to use it not as a vehicle for getting from A to B, but a vehicle for showing off.

Then there’s the more fundamental question of letting your kid get a car at all.

For every year you can convince your child to delay getting their licence, the greater the chances are that they’ll avoid any rattiness on the roads.

Getting a licence should involve a serious conversation between parents and kids. It should almost be like applying for a job, with a set of criteria based around need, rather than a rite of passage based around some juvenile sense of freedom.

The first question shouldn’t be do you want a car, but do you need a car. Most teenagers have their local public transport timetables memorised; few of them have jobs which absolutely require a vehicle.

At a time in your life when you want to go out late, get drunk, impress chicks, do stupid stuff with your friends - all of which you can accomplish handsomely without a vehicle - throwing a car into the mix is a recipe for disaster. It’s also hard-wired into our brains as a perfectly normal part of growing up. If we are that wedded to the concept we should stop wasting our energy by wondering aloud why another kid is dead, for it will keep happening once every two or three days, and we should not be surprised at all.

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237 comments

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    • Woff says:

      05:50am | 10/02/10

      Yes After the second offense banned until 21 immediately , car confiscated, and offenders made to be available for public duties from 5pm Friday to 2pm Sunday arvo’s. Any breach extension of the 21 limit and Public Duties

    • pete says:

      07:45am | 10/02/10

      banning doesnt work, how many times do we hear of unlicensed drivers

    • Carmel says:

      09:47am | 10/02/10

      2nd offence, crush their car.  Then the next car they borrow, etc etc.

    • Wadwe says:

      10:23am | 10/02/10

      Half of these are people who are unlicenced or breaking existing P plate restrictions. Bringing in more rules for P platers won’t make a difference - they will ignore them too! If only there was a way to ban stupidity the roads would be a safer place. Although I do believe that the current power/weight and capacity/weight rules currently in place in Victoria should be made Australia wide

    • Tracy Delan'e-Squires says:

      06:46pm | 10/02/10

      All interesting stuff with people’s views.  I feel drivers, should be 21 before they get behind a wheel, after that can only drive a car of a small engine size, 1.6 no higher! Until 5-6 years of driving experience?  Then another test.
      But all in all, I think the driving lessons should become tougher?

    • Tracey says:

      08:46am | 11/02/10

      Children are what they are brought up to be, the world has gone insane to be quiet honest. Its high time that we go back to the old days, “its called disicpline. Bring back tough rules, punishment and the school cane, its all starts from the very beginning. Young kids today take everything for granted, everything comes to easy and they take life for granted. There is so much tradegy, violence, drugs, alcohol and madness in todays world, its seriously time to get it right and toughen up our laws in more ways than one, our law and order is an absolute joke.

    • anonymous says:

      11:02pm | 25/02/10

      It was my mate who was driving and died at colyton… First of all you should get your facts right, he was on his green p’s therefore no passenger restrictions.. also the p plater accidents are nothing compared to full licence drivers.. You need to see what happens to cars when they crash. see how they crush with even the slightest bump then tell me why people die on our roads. the news portrays p platers as bad drivers (when only 20% are) so that police can harrass them (as they do me) and get revenue from fines. a campaign against p platers is harrassment. its like having a campaign against aboriginals. ITS JUST NOT RIGHT, yet people like you support it. either you’ve been paid off. or you believe the paid off people from the news. these laws and this harrassment wouldn’t have anything to do with the fact that the pedestrian ministers son died in a car crash with his mate driving who was a p plater would it? or the fact that he sits with the RTA and makes the laws that effect all of us? talk about a conflict of interests.. something has to happen… and it will

    • John A Neve says:

      06:15am | 10/02/10

      The real culprit in these deaths is society (us), lack of parental control and a softly, softly legal system.

      Sadly for all the huff and puff, we just don’t care. We would rather debate what Barnaby said or what Rudd didn’t do. We all know things would be differen ifv we were a republic !!

      We have become the most superficial race of all time, we mouth the platitudes, but we really don’t give a STUFF.

    • pete says:

      07:49am | 10/02/10

      no i disagree,  The basis of this problem is that they are immature, self centered and display a flagrant disregard for the law and authority.

      Perhaps the answer is to bring back driving tests, maybe examiners pick up on devil may care attitudes better than computer generated tests do

    • JPK says:

      08:51am | 10/02/10

      i agree 1005! if these parents had a more open & communicative relarionship with their kids - their kids wouldnt be so desperate to get around & hoon around. its hard to pity these inexperienecd drivers - all these accidebnts are self -influicted thru stupid acts!  and if parents of these kids stop refrring to their brats as he’s a lovely kid.. this was a one off.. well news flash that one off has caused his/ her death!

    • Macca says:

      08:53am | 10/02/10

      @Pete,

      There are already stringent driving tests (in NSW at least) in order to get your licence (over 120 hours worth of driving experience before you can apply).

      Young ppl will always feel indestructable and will continue to act out. Who here cannot say they did do stupid sh*t when they were young. Even worse when we were drunk.

      @John, I think you’ve missed the mark on public opinion there mate, if we didn’t care it wouldn’t make the news. As for how the republic debate entered this conversation…

      Driver education courses should involve both the learner driver and the adult teaching the young fella to drive. Teenagers will develop much of their driving habits from what they observe, mostly from their parents. If you are teaching someone to drive you should have to go through the same process as someone learning to drive.

      Also, legislate the safety and power requirements of cars driven by individuals for their first 5 years of driving.
      ANCAP ratings of greater than 4 stars and a Power-to-Weight Ratio of ... Something (someone with a mild enthusiasm in Physics can answer this for me).

      I guarantee if you prevent P Platers from driving XR6s and put them in Volvos you’ll see fatalities go down.

    • John A Neve says:

      09:16am | 10/02/10

      Macca,
      It’s a sad day when I have to explain things to you. But surely we ALL know thing would be better in a republic, don’t we?

      As to your comment of the publics reaction; car accident aren’t news, they are just fill ins. There have been car accidents since the invention of the car. We are always going to do “something”, but we never do!!!

      I repeat Macca, we really don’t care,after all it is nowhere near as important as what Barnaby says or Rudd doesn’t say, is it?

    • Macca says:

      09:36am | 10/02/10

      @John, have to agree to disagree, but I think you’ll find most news programs head their bulletins tonight with a reference to the road toll, and not Rudd’s horrible performance on Q and A or Abbot parading at a Laundromat

      You can argue which you consider more News worthy, but I reckon the Road toll will hit public opnion a lot more than the pollies. As for taking action (or lack there of), I don’t have an answer for you.

    • Jack Thomas says:

      12:09pm | 10/02/10

      Interestingly bogans and no shows and many other morons blame all cyclists for the poor behaviour of a few (ie. rolling through red lights) and will often deliberately swerve at them “in response”.

      Maybe we should take the same attitude to bad drivers, not just these young hoons but the so many talking on their mobiles, speeding, etc.?

      Why not swerve at them, abuse them, then wail about them on shock jock radio, online, etc.?

      Go on, this month so far as a cyclist I have had a beer bottle thrown at my group, cars swerve and tell us to move over (while legally riding two abreast in our own lane), been millimetres from being sideswiped by a 60 kph car illegally cutting in at a roundabout.

      It is soceity’s fault for bad drivers, but all cyclists fault for bad cyclists.

    • Sarah says:

      03:32pm | 10/02/10

      there are always driving test before you get your Ps. Also when they check your log book be fore you go for the test they question the driving instructor if they think the learner is competent or not.

    • mike says:

      07:50am | 11/02/10

      It’s the drivers and not just p platers. As a motorcyclist I have had drivers tailgate me, cut me off, change lanes on top of me, and then abuse me as if it was all my fault. A size 10 riding boot in the door skin usually gets them to change their action, but nothing changes their attitude of indignant self importance and the ignorance of all others.

    • neil says:

      11:28pm | 20/08/10

      we write of being soft in society! let us call a spade a spade! when is it time to call someone who knowingly drinks and gives their friends a lift home “great mate or murderer”?  it is in YOUR hands!

    • Peter Tavare says:

      06:41am | 10/02/10

      David, a very thoughtful comment and made even more graphic by yesterday afternoon’s senseless crash in Sydney’s west, killing a 15 year old, with another in a critical condition. The boy was driving his mother’s car to supposedly pick up his sister. Did the mother not know he was driving her car? Had this practice been going on for some time? Wouldn’t it be good for police to charge the parents as accessories to death, because that is effectively what appears to have happened. I wouldn’t be surprised if the death rate of teenagers increases even further over the next few years because there is a whole generation of over-testosterined boys in the outer suburbs whose parents have taught them that males are kings and that rules do not apply to their communities. Your suggestions of compulsory defensive driving for P platers is a good idea, but an outright ban on driving between 11pm - 5am (unless they get police permission for work or other reasons) would also help address the problem. Of course, the rules will be flouted by the doof-doof boys, but at least it might stop other kids from getting caught up in these senseless accidents. I’m sure there will be a whole series of meaningless inquiries by governments, when simple actions from the bleeding obvious are now urgently required.

    • T.Chong says:

      07:28am | 10/02/10

      Yur starting to stray a little there Pete, yur references to outer suburbs males etc, where “rules do not apply to THEIR community”  is very obvios reference to young Middle Eastern guys, no?, Why not have the courage to say so openly?
      Only prob is that ignores just as many “Hoons” etc that are from Anglo Saxon parentage , and the young women who also arent shy at showing off.
      Hooness is not restricted to any ethnic group, or gender- too frequent tragic stories are the proof.
      Finally Pete , you seem pretty sure about the circumstances in regards to a specific case. You know these things, including the need to charge the parents? If not, then yur just speculating?

    • Macca says:

      08:58am | 10/02/10

      Argh, why am I agreeing with T.Chong. Even if he does attack the debater rather than the debate near the end…

      I’m off to the DR to check if somethings wrong with me

    • LC says:

      11:13am | 26/03/11

      No Peter, curfews will not help. Those who actually do the wrong thing will simply take down their P-plates continue as per usual, because guess what? They don’t care about what’s illegal and what’s not! They routinely break most road rules what makes you think they won’t with this one? And meanwhile, it’ll only cause anger and disrespect for the law amongst young drivers doing the right thing.

      As for defensive driving courses, we both probably agree with this. The only difference I think that they should be made to do one before they are given a full license, rather than before they get their Ps. Because to get the most out of a defensive driving course, you need a few years solo driving experience under your belt.

    • pete says:

      06:52am | 10/02/10

      hear hear, agree 100% 
      Maybe part of the answer is to crush the cars of these young driving offenders and deliver it to the front lawn of their home, to remind them of the stupidity of why they are now paying off a block of metal. 

      I attended similar fatal accidents for many years in Sydney as part of my job and if these young friends want to know why, the reason is stupidity and ego David is 100% correct

    • Dave Sag says:

      07:22am | 10/02/10

      Private car ownership is a blight on our society.  There are simply far too many people driving.  Some research done by Carbon Planet a couple of years ago showed that (from memory here) something like 50% of all car rides in Australia are under 5k and around 25% of all car rides are less than 1k.  Any fool with 2 legs can walk 1k in about 10 minutes or cycle 5k in the same time.  I know people who drive to the shops, a mere few hundred metres away!  No wonder our obesity levels are through the roof.

      If we raised the driving age to a more sensible 25, and increased the price of petrol to around say $3 per litre (with the excess fees going to subsidise professional drivers, farmers and those who actually need their cars, and with a proportion going to an environmental levy), the roads would be much safer for cyclists and pedestrians. The crash rate would fall through the floor and our emissions levels would drop (slightly); and people all over this fine country would be much healthier in the long run.

    • Phil says:

      08:41am | 10/02/10

      Stupid idea, the public transport systems in australia are at bursting point in most places and doesnt exist in other areas leaving huge gaps in security and safety of people. Pushing the fuel price up to $3 a litre will only make more people who cant afford to get to work to just pay their bills even more unable to do so.
      All that would happen is people would start looking for a way to rort the system to get a subsidy

    • Macca says:

      09:23am | 10/02/10

      Raising Petrol taxes will cause inflation and Public Transport is awful in this country.

      Nice idea, but sounds like something Barnaby would say without thinking. Except his delivery would be more entertaining

    • paul says:

      09:56am | 10/02/10

      Sure that sounds great!  Lets only let the old and the rich drive!  That will certainly keep the undesirables off YOUR road.  And how are young people supposed to start a career if they cant even drive to work until they are 25??  Did you put ANY thought into this comment?

    • Jo Svejk says:

      10:26am | 10/02/10

      This is a very sensible suggestion. We can no longer continue treating driving in the trivial manner that we have done until now. Overuse of cars is indeed a blight on our society. Their noise, pollution and the amount of space they take up through roads and parking places make our cities very unpleasant places. Cars bring out the worst in us - aggression and bullying on the roads is rife. There is no denying that machinery as heavy as a car that can be driven at such high speeds is highly dangerous yet training to use this machinery is brief and not at all thorough. Once a driver has a licence there is no refresher course for the rest of that person’s life. Road laws are forgotten (and new, imaginary ones often invented in the driver’s head) and bad habits picked up from other drivers are never trained out. Would a football team have just one training session at the start of the season and then expect to win a grand final half a year later?

      Meanwhile pedestrians and cyclists are treated as second-class citizens. Imagine if cars were treated in the same manner as these two - would cars tolerate traffic lights turning amber before the first car got half-way through the intersection? Could we crash into other cars and claim we didn’t see them because they weren’t painted in bright colours?

      For a healthy, happy society, our car-centric culture must change.

    • Martin G says:

      11:51am | 10/02/10

      Dave Sag,

      One of the most ridiculous suggestions I have ever seen on this site, and I’ve seen plenty. I am 24, hold fulltime employment and have done so for years, and you expect me to give up my car and licence which I require to get me to work so I can feed myself and pay my mortgage? Then you suggest raising the petrol price to $3/L, which forces many people below the poverty line due to massive increases in food prices?

      Pull the other one, moron. How about employing your brain before the speak?

    • agree says:

      04:37pm | 10/02/10

      I agree! And Im only 21! At the ages 16 to 18 sometimes 20 people are in that “Im too cool!” show off stage. They need to be shown exactly what happens to them if they drive like twits with photos or videos when they go for their license in my opinion

    • LC says:

      01:23pm | 25/03/11

      1. Car accidents have been a reality since they invented cars. As with all types of human technology, accidents DO happen. THAT’S LIFE. Some accidents end up resulting in death, but death is as much a part of life as life itself. While car companies are doing all they can to reduce car accident fatalities, so long as cars exist (and as long as stupid people are allowed to get behind the wheel and as long as people continue to make dangerous decisions in the spur of the moment), they cannot prevent every single one. The only way to stop car accidents is to ban cars outright, and even you admit that is not a feasible solution. Electricity, buildings, and many household items have the potential to kill should we ban all of them as well?

      2. People of ages 18-25 need cars for certain lines of employment, such as plumbers, electricians, farmers, builders and tradesmen. To deprive them of the cars they need for their employment will result in two things, 1. An increase in unlicensed, uninsured and untrained drivers causing absolute havoc (and if one of them hits you, they would be unlikely to have sufficient assets to sue so you won’t see a cent from your insurance company) and/or 2. An increase in these people going on the dole because they cannot work, entertaining themselves by binge drinking on weekends. Either way, society will continue to pay.

      3. To increase fuel prices would bring up the costs of everything, because guess what? Anything on the shops shelves didn’t just magically appear there, it’s taken there by trucks, which need diesel to operate. The price of that goes up, the price of running the trucks go up, the trucking company passes it onto the retailer otherwise they’d take a hit in their profits, the retailer passes that cost down to the customer so they don’t take a hit in their profits. Economics 101.

      4. Public transport is not available everywhere, such as the outskirts of the metropolitan area or the country. From my place to my place of employment, it’s about a 2-3.5 hour journey on public transport, compared to a 30-50 minute journey by car or 20-40 by motorcycle (my usual mode of transport). I don’t care if petrol is $2 or $3 a litre, I’ll pay it (though if it gets to $5 it’ll start being a problem). However, not everyone in my position can. That will result in people not being able to afford going to work, thus going on the dole or (as Phil said) cause people to find ways to exploit the system.

      But you don’t care; after all closet fascists such as you (hiding behind causes such as protecting the environment or protecting the children) want to stop the usage of private cars at all costs due to the personal freedom they represent.

    • David says:

      07:33am | 10/02/10

      David, about time someone verbalised the thoughts and opinions of what I think are a ridiculously silent majority (probably because they can’t drive either).

      There’s nothing wrong with the roads, other drivers aren’t a danger if you’re not following the fundamental tenet of driving; paying attention.  The only real gap is defensive skill and that should be addressed but can’t be with a log book or an instructor teaching you to do hill-starts or 3-point turns.

      There’s a lack of respect for driving (as with most things nowadays) and in that context the biggest factor and the thing that will reverse this statistic forever, is the attitude of the driver.  A government-led, mandatory defensive driving school will make some difference but even that with the wrong attitude will amount to zip.

      It’s always obvious why these kinds of things happen.  Confronting, uncomfortable but obvious.  If only all problem solutions were this obvious.

    • Sean says:

      07:43am | 10/02/10

      “Ultimately though there is only so much that governments can do or should be expected to do”
      and
      “It takes a special kind of genius to kill yourself in a car these days. Unless you’ve got an old bomb most cars these days are so safe that you really have to try”

      Those two statements are so wrong.  You obviously have not read the reports on less crashworth cars, who drives them and the how they are represented in the road toll.  And its obvious you dont travel the death stretches of the Pacific Highway where people from all walks of life are killed every two weeks.  P platers, truck drivers, police officers, mums.  The list goes on.

      The NSW government is low on enforcement, very low on education and very very low on engineering.  All essential elements in road safety that need to be looked at for a balanced assessment to be made

    • pete says:

      07:53am | 10/02/10

      and P plate drivers are very low on adhering to the road rules and speed limits

    • Sean says:

      08:34am | 10/02/10

      Peter
      Agreed, but is the problem limited to P platers.  NSW police commissioner just had a crash and injured people so for the first time in the history of NSW we have a crash that speed, fatigue and alcohol was not a problem. 

      VIctorias top traffic cop “theres no excuse for speeding” Ken Lay just got caught speeding and he blamed fatigue.  Can you believe it.  Not only was he speeding he was driving while fatigued by his own admission .  Are these people not also a problem on our roads demonstrated by their actions?  Have we not all exceeded the speed limit or driven at an excessive speed.  Dont we all need to change our behavior and encourage our government to build and maintain road systems that cater for the ranger of trucks, cars and bikes as well as the varied skill levels.  The problem is not limited to P platers who in NSW lose their license of any speeding offence.  And there are still plenty with a license.

    • Tom says:

      01:09pm | 10/02/10

      The problem is, and its something that no one here has recognised…. NO ONE CAN DRIVE, whether your old or young when your out there on the road you see people of all ages doing stupid things… I just went to Peru for 2 months where the road toll is around 5,000 people a year and no one follows the road rules, same with New York. I think we have it good here.

    • David says:

      01:22pm | 10/02/10

      The NSW government is one of the toughest on engineering.  I don’t agree that unsafe (if that’s what you’re suggesting) cars have anything to do with this and although I’d concede that a modified car can be more dangerous, modification - initself - is not even close to being an issue.

      I do agree that education is an issue however only in the context that there’s not enough emphasis on respect and defense while driving.

      When I got my license, the most difficult thing I had to do was a 3 point turn.  Since then I’ve been professionally trained in defensive, high performance driving and gained racing licenses in several different kinds on several different surfaces.  Even the most basic of these focuses on the individual, awareness of and adaptation to the conditions.  That includes the car and what’s happening in it as well as the road, time of day, rain, whatever.

      Enforcement is a numbers game; you don’t change behaviour by increasing the penalties.  Instead you change it by increasing the chances of being caught..  That’s a more difficult one; how many cops is enough and how many is too many, and if there’s not enough where do they come from?

      However the point is that to soften focus on the tragedy of road death - any death but especially P-platers who are, by and large, so young - through the bad choices and decisions of the drivers, is just evading the real problem.

      Respect and attitude.

    • KH says:

      07:49am | 10/02/10

      Driving is a privilege - not a right.  This seems to be the main problem - these kids think that it is their right to drive, but it isn’t - its a privilege conferred by the community as a whole - we have the right to drive on the roads without fear of coming across one of these dopes. So many of these accidents kill only the occupants of the car - but the time is coming when it becomes far worse, and innocent others who have nothing to do with their stupidity start dying as well.

      Getting a license is too easy - forget multiple choice - lets have some written answers so they actually have to know the law, not just guess.  Tougher driving tests, and more hours learning.  If a child under 16 is driving a parents’ car without any kind of license, the parents should be held responsible - the car keys should not be accessible. 
      P-platers should only be able to drive manual cars (you try text messaging and driving a geared car around the city - its impossible), and the power of cars should also be more stringently enforced - as noted in recent days in Victoria, the rules as they stand can be gotten around quite easily it seems, to allow P-platers in high performance vehicles.  There should certainly be restrictions on the amount of ‘pimping’ as well - a car is not to show off in - it is for transport.
      Perhaps driver training should start in school as some kind of optional subject? Or somewhere like (in Victoria) VicRoads where driver training on road rules can be done without necessarily being in the car - there is no reason why you can’t learn the laws of the road before actually driving.

      Most of all, people need to learn respect for a tonne or more of metal that can do you, or worse, someone else some serious damage.  Cars are safer today, and yes, you do have to try to get them off the road - however a lot of P-platers don’t have new cars, and they don’t have much respect for them.

    • TK says:

      12:16pm | 10/02/10

      Agree that getting a licence is too easy but no mentioned that getting a licence is also very cheap.

      Increase the licence fees or better yet, mandate compulsory insurance for licence holders and not car owners. It is the people behind the wheel that need to take responsibility. Parents shouldn’t be penalised because their kid did something stupid and in most likelihood, the parents have probably lost respect from the kids already.

      Just like renters, all new drivers should post a bond. Break a rule, you don’t it back. Ruin someone’s house, you don’t get your bond back. If you can’t afford to pay insurance or post a bond, then you obviously should be driving. There’s no greater education than learning the value of money/

    • Venessa says:

      01:43pm | 10/02/10

      KH- completely agree. I had to do a compulsory defensive driving course as part of my work. They basically scared the crap out of us, telling us about statistics for accidents, how putting your chair in the correct position could mean that you might survive a crash and not be ejected 50 metres behind your car, pictures of accidents etc. etc….and hearing the ABS brakes go off in a car was a shock…i wouldnt have believed that it was so loud… I drove like a grandma for months after this…but it would be a hell of a learning tool to new drivers….

    • ~Rumpleteazer~ says:

      07:53am | 10/02/10

      We older sages can NEVER change the mindset of a young person climbing in behind the wheel of their car.
      If they have had a bad day or are pissed off,or if they just feel like it, they can kill themselves and their very best friends [friends they went to Pre School with, no discrimination, friends are friends]

      We can not stop the carnage. We can’t get inside their heads.

      Remember a car is just an extension of their “willy”......It’s a bloke thing and they want to be “the Man” ................................  “As seen on TV” !!!!!

    • Chris says:

      11:54am | 10/02/10

      I pity those who consider you a sage. You contributed nothing to the argument and parroted the tired persecution of younger drivers.

      Accidents happen to people of all ages, races and abilities every single day, yet EVERY SINGLE TIME an accident occurs with a driver under 25, it is trumpeted from the rooftops. The problem isn’t young drivers. We are so quick to foist blame for any issue onto the closest and most easily denounced scapegoat. The problem, like so many others undeservedly placed on the head of a scapegoat, is a complex interplay between social norms, law, education deficiencies and human nature.

      But please, go on with your “inverted commas”, “ridiculous kneejerking” and your “self aggrandising”. Truly, the wisdom of the Ancients flows through you.

    • Rachel says:

      08:33pm | 10/02/10

      Actually Chris, Runpleteazer is right and you are wrong. Accidents do happen to all age groups but a much higher proportion happen to drivers under 25. That is why their insurance costs are much higher. They do not have the experience or maturity that older drivers have and that is reflected in their accident rates.
      I would say, judging by your writing style you almost certainly fall into the under 25 category. Go and finish year 12 and come back to us in 10 years and see whether this is still your view on it.
      Under 25s are not scapegoats, they are inexperienced drivers and the rest of us need to think up a way to stop them killing themselves and us.

    • BMJ says:

      08:03am | 10/02/10

      Young people will do stupid things. Some will pay the ultimate price. No law will stop that.

      Maybe we should teach youngsters HOW to drive so when they do something stupid they have the tools to maybe avert disaster.

      When I was in Europe I was amazed by the courses that young people had to go through. No memorising meaningless statistics, but they were actually taught about how cars work and how to drive them properly. Learner drivers on the Autobahn doing 200km/h. Quite a sight.

    • jed says:

      08:03am | 10/02/10

      yep, frankly as more of these flogs end up dead the safer we should all feel. we should all celebrate when the next dickhead runs into a tree and kills himself. just think, it could have been us, or one of our family members instead of that tree.

    • Andrea says:

      09:29am | 10/02/10

      If they don’t care about anyone else’s life, why should we care when they end theirs. A telegraph pole is preferable to a childrens crossing!

    • Toby says:

      01:05pm | 10/02/10

      Wow Jed, you just sound like a barrel of laughs don’t you.  So I guess you and your entire family have never done anything even slightly wrong in your entire life! Congrats on that

    • DG says:

      08:06am | 10/02/10

      As you so carefully pointed out there people were ignore the rules anyway - these are people that know they are doing the wrong thing and simply don’t care. As I understand it the kid who killed his mate yesterday was only 15 years old. There is NO reason he should he been behind the wheel. But there is also nothing that could reasonably done to prevent people doing stupid things.

      The defensive driver course is a good idea - but those people who genuinely care about such things are already doing defensive driving courses. Also there is a difference between doing a course and becoming a defensive driver. 

      And, again - how is changing the rules going to help? You are talking about a sector of the community that willingly ignore the rules. What makes you think they will magically comply with the new rules? They are willing to ignore the conditions of their driver licence - what makes you think that they will stop driving if they don’t have a licence?

      Now for the really unpopular bit - Anyone dumb enough to get in the car with a drunk, or underage driver deserves whatever they get. And if the driver is being a jerk ask to get out. I’ve done the latter and had to walk more than 20km home at 2 in the morning (I lived in the country) - similarly I have done lengthy walks when the alternative was getting in the car with a drunk.

      The good news is that persons genetically predisposed to drive like an idiot are (with any luck) killing themselves off before they have a chance to breed.

      A final point - these kids are growing up in a society that complains about speed cameras as “revenue raising” rather than a tax on illegal behaviour. That’s where the problem starts. I can think of quite a few sections of road that could fund our hospitals with a few strategically placed speed cameras.

    • Jolanda says:

      08:10am | 10/02/10

      We talk about educating drivers but what about educating passengers.  Too many passengers say nothing when the driver is driving radically for fear of being branded weak or ‘not cool’.  We need to teach passengers that when they put thier life in the hands of a driver, and in particular an inexperienced one, they have a responsbility to also keep a look out and to say something if the driver is putting their lives at risk.  The stupid commercial where the passengers just wiggled their little finger was a joke.  How is that going to help? 

      With some P platers they have had to do 120 hours learning so how can they not have a reasonable amount of experience.  Could it be because they bluff and the parents sign off for them?

      When my 12 year old son heard the Prime Minister talking about the drinking age being raised to 21 his comment was that the Government will not enforce it.  And there lies the problem for our youth.  The adults are not enforcing the rules and as a result young people are becoming more brazen.

      Education - Keeping them Honest
      http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/

    • Compulsory Drivers Ed says:

      08:34am | 10/02/10

      Honestly - how many times does this come up… P plates are more a warning to others to give the driver space.  I still maintain that Drivers Ed should be a compulsory part of senior schooling like it is in Canada and the States.  Kids spend all of year 10 learning the road rules and participating in theoretical situations and role plays, take the 2 hour written test to get a learners.  For year 11 and 12, they get half an hour of instruction a week to make sure there is consistent teaching (parents usually dont know the current rules) and for homework, have to take at least 2 trips a week with an open licence holder.  I think we should lobby for this to be included in the national curriculum - I hope Julia Gillard reads this…

    • LC says:

      11:56am | 28/04/11

      “Kids spend all of year 10 learning the road rules and participating in theoretical situations and role plays, take the 2 hour written test to get a learners.  For year 11 and 12, they get half an hour of instruction a week to make sure there is consistent teaching (parents usually dont know the current rules) and for homework, have to take at least 2 trips a week with an open licence holder.  I think we should lobby for this to be included in the national curriculum - I hope Julia Gillard reads this…”

      I like it.

    • RustyMcGreggs says:

      08:36am | 10/02/10

      David, congratulations on you having the kahunas to call it how it is. Whenever one of these tragedies (& it is a tragedy when a life is lost) occurs the reality of the situation is lost under the outpouring of emotion that is focused upon by the media. That reality is that someone behaved badly or illegally or anti-socially or offensively.  It’s all too common in society today and not just behind the wheel of a car. The combination of car, P plate and death is irresistable to the media and this relationship , I believe, in some peculiar way makes martyrs of the victims involved. Regardless of how many hoops young people are made to jump through to achieve their license, while Mum or Dad or their instructor is next to them their behaviour is exemplary…..when they are not under supervision, ALL BETS ARE OFF. In terms of rules & regulations, gotta give our government brownie points for trying but in terms of hitting the mark .....better luck next time.

      As for the exemptions debate re higher powered vehicles, this in the Herald on 07/02/10…..
      “Bans ‘easy’ to get around
      Roads and Traffic Authority has granted 2151 exemptions to P-platers wanting to drive turbocharged, supercharged or V8 vehicles since the bans were introduced in 2005, some to P-platers driving high-performance vehicles.

      Some P-platers are driving modified cars, Porsches, Subaru Impreza WRXs and the fastest Ford Falcon ever produced, the turbocharged XR6.

      One 22-year-old P-plater, who can now apply for his full licence, has been driving a Subaru WRX, one of the fastest $40,000 cars on the market, because it was a work vehicle…....”

      Considering 890 of these were granted in the first 2 1/2 years from 2005 seems that there is an upward trend re the number of exemptions granted?

      Regardless, you can still kill yourself & some friends to boot even in a 1.5 ltr normally aspirated car when you behave irresponsibly & no government or parent can stop it under the current parameters.

      Cheers

    • Alex says:

      08:45am | 10/02/10

      I wonder if part of the problem is that traffic infringements are treated separately from the rest of the law.

      If I was to injure or recklessly endanger someone using a screwdriver, cricket bat or lawn mower, I’d be charged with assault or reckless endangerment.  But if I do it with a car, I won’t be charged with those things - nor, probably, charged at all in the usual sense; I’ll lose some demerit points and pay a fine for breaking the road rules.

      That practice of treating dangerous driving like it’s breaking the rules of a game, rather than committing a crime, is reflected in people’s attitudes.  Someone who gets regular traffic tickets is not seen by his peers as a criminal, but (at worst) as foolhardy - and often merely as a victim of unfair rules or overzealous enforcement.

      Treat road rules as any other law.  Treat those who break them as law breakers.  Treat negligent and dangerous behaviour with a car the same as with any other object.  Do it early, at their first offence - don’t wait till they kill someone.

    • Jezza says:

      09:33am | 10/02/10

      Great comments Alex!! This is exactly what needs to be done. But it won’t. Our governments don’t want to have to pay for the upkeep of these idiots while they do jail time, which to my mind they deserve. And as for building the jails we need, forget it. If they build jails they won’t have any money to build more mammoth sports stadiums & other glorious monuments to the glory of political parties. It all comes down to weak political will!!

    • PresqueVu says:

      08:48am | 10/02/10

      Implement a process of demotion.

      If you lose your points as a P plater you get shunted back to L plates.  Nothing a teenager would hate more than driving around with Mum or Dad for another 6 months.

      Should also apply for open drivers.  lose your licence and back to P’s you go.

    • Julia says:

      08:47am | 10/02/10

      Fully agree, David. Stupid is as stupid does.

    • MK says:

      08:49am | 10/02/10

      Some young people do stupid things.. they have done throughout history and will continue to do so in the future… it is a part of growing up and unfortunately sometimes leads to loss of life. 

      Introduction of more and more strict driving rules because of a very small proportion of all P platers is dishonest, will not solve anything and just disadvantages those who actually obey the rules and would not nor ever have done anything wrong.

    • RJB says:

      08:51am | 10/02/10

      I also am tired of seeing grieving teens arm in arm at some flower taped telegraph pole bemoaning the injustice of it all. Just recently at the Mill Park Victoria accident, we saw visions of teen friends holding cans of bourbon and coke while strapping same to the tree.
      There is no coronial type inquest discussion happenning with this lot in terms of facing up to the reality of why it occurred. The only conversation is that he or she was a great person and life is not fair.
      Attitudes are fuelled by movies such as “Jackass” where morons do dumb things to impress their even dumber mates. The answer begins with magistrates and parents working in concert to re-install discipline the the home and community.

    • max says:

      10:30am | 10/02/10

      You express my thoughts exactly. 

      I would also add, how often do you see Mum or Dad saying what a great kid he was. Well in this case he just murdered 4 others so in my opinion he is just a killer not deserving of any praise. Harsh messages such as this are what is needed to get it into the heads of their peers. Not this outpouring of grief and asking why. Enough is enough.

      It should also be compulsery that all learners do say half their L plate experience with quailified driving instructors. I regard myself as a good driver, as we all probably do, with many years on the road driving trucks and other vehicles but still insisted my teenagers did considerable time with a driving school and also defensive driving course before they got their P’s.

      I also hear much to regularly about kids getting signed off on hours they did not do.

      I can already hear the scream about cost. Driving is a privelige and if you are not prepared to spend the money and time to get trained then you should not get a license. Financial position has nothing to do with making you a better or responsible driver. You don’t get to be a doctor or a lawyer or any respectable uni degree any easier because of your financial position. You still do the same training.

      Driving is a privilige and should be treated as such.

    • Julia says:

      11:53am | 10/02/10

      Fully agree with you, too RJB. Roadside memorials are a symptom of the problem - deifying young deaths.

    • Sarah says:

      08:53am | 10/02/10

      “With some P platers they have had to do 120 hours learning “

      This is a problem too - who is teaching them? Mum or dad, who themselves are poor drivers? Are they capable TEACHERS? It’s not hard to drive. It is hard to teach.When we hand over driver training to unqualified inexperienced incapable people, is it any surprise that new drivers learn bad habits attitudes and skills?

      120 hrs is good. Mandating the first 25 hrs to be with a licensed instructor would be better. The the parents are only supervising skills already learned, they’re not teaching. But because most people are morons a lot of them will say “That instructor showed you bnllsh!t I’ll show you how to drive.”

    • fluffy says:

      08:54am | 10/02/10

      we need more speed cameras - after all… speed cameras save lives.

    • TK says:

      09:03am | 10/02/10

      I say put up more telegraph poles. And stronger ones.

      As a society, we can only view these deaths as a filter for the future. Stupid people doing stupid things leading to stupid deaths can only enrich society. If they are doing dumb things now, one can only imagine the carnage they’ll wraught in later years.

      What about today’s story of the 15yo boy that was killed when his 15yo friend was driving. As a society, we cannot find reasons to justify his death and those of others? We cannot blame the police for not doing enough. We cannot blame the education system, regulators or parents. We can only view it as Darwin did-natural selection at its best.

    • Macca says:

      09:25am | 10/02/10

      Excellent idea, why don’t we have public stonings for all HSC students who get below 50?

    • AM says:

      10:24am | 10/02/10

      TK I like your style. Weed out the dumb. And Macca, some (not all) young people have no respect for society. I work in emergency x-ray in a large public hospital and see these idiots all night long, wether its drinking out and getting into a fight or a hoon who has just smashed their mums car. They don’t care.

    • TK says:

      11:51am | 10/02/10

      A low HSC score doesn’t mean a person is dumb. Not everyone is atuned to reading and writing.

      If anything, stone those who do nothing after the HSC. I’d rather their dole payments go towards more telegraph poles.

    • SLF says:

      09:10am | 10/02/10

      P platers have accidents and die in crashes? Really? Kind of obvious isn’t it as all sections of society and demographics will have accidents, cause crashes and die in cars. It is part of the risk. Putting the emphasis on P Plaers is the easy option imho.

      I think the signling out of any section of society in tis area is misguided as everyday I see idiots doing stupid things that comprimise the safety of other users and P platers are not the majority. The woman with 3 kids in the car doing her makeup, the bogan in the 20 yr old V8 death trap tailgating, the old fella doing half the speed limit in the fast lane of the free way, the truck driver pulling 30tonnes of death through the sleep barrier…..etc etc

      The problem we have is that you get a license and unless you are a p plater you are forgotten about. You can drive for years and years, learning bad habits and causing chaos yet never being directly involved in an accident. The smart thing to do would be compulsory retests every 5 years allied to medicals.

      But we would not do that cos it is ieasier to blame the kids.

    • Greg says:

      09:23am | 10/02/10

      “In NSW alone 19 P-platers drivers have died this year - that’s almost one-third the number killed in 2009, and we are just into February.”

    • TK says:

      11:54am | 10/02/10

      Bring mandatory testing every 5 years for all drivers. Most will probably fail.

    • Bev says:

      04:00pm | 10/02/10

      Sorry, but that is utter b****t saying that it is easier to blame the kids.

      I don’t feel it is a matter of just blaming P Platers because they have a P Plate on their car.  My husband and I drive an hour and a half to our daughter’s place every 2nd weekend.  It never fails that an idiot risks OUR lives due to their moronic driving.  The first thing we both do is look at the plate.  In at least 90% of these incidents there is a P Plate there. 

      Coming home from work one night our daughter was nearly killed by a P Plater passing her vehicle on a blind hill.  Another car came over the hill and luckily she retained control of her vehicle when the P Plater missed her car by INCHES pulling in in time.  She skidded to a stop and thankfully remained safe. 

      My husband used to be an ambulance officer and has seen more than his share of carnage on our roads.

      We both feel that when a P Plater exceeds the speed limit (like the one doing 140kpm) their vehicle should be crushed. (except this one crushed his own life as well).  This also goes to alcohol levels (which should be zero).  We feel the only way to make them come to their senses is through their hip pocket.  If a mate is then stupid enough to lend them their vehicle, the same goes for that vehicle too.  Otherwise, I really don’t think they will ever learn.  Perhaps a visit to the spinal unit would drive it home a bit.  But the do gooders in our society will not let this happen.  Would be terrible if they got shocked, wouldn’t it?

      It is easy for those to say that accidents have always happened (even when I was young).  BUT there are far more vehicles on the road today with much more power.  I cannot remember anyone at all in our group when I was young acting irresponsibly in a vehicle.  I also feel that young female P Platers are just as idiotic and aggressive in their driving as their male counterparts.

      Of course, we see the older generation doing the wrong thing on the roads as well.  Speeding and drinking.  The same goes for them - crush their vehicles.  Especially those whose licence has been suspended but they keep right on driving.  They ALL risk my life and the lives of my family.  And that is just not acceptable.

      BUT these P Platers are not only taking out themselves, but in some terrible cases, a car full of their mates as well.  And yes, the mates are to blame as well for being in the vehicle, especially with the restrictions on how many passengers they are allowed.  And no, you will not stop idiots like the 15 year old who took his Mum’s vehicle.

      I really do not know just what the solution is to this terrible loss of life, but perhaps as Carmel said, 2nd offence, crushed vehicle.  I also agree that another option is to put them back on L plates (that would hurt their ego). 

      Never had a rant like this but I just get so angry with these idiots risking not only their own lives but the lives of everyone on the roads.

    • Greg says:

      09:14am | 10/02/10

      Do what Germany do with the young kids.. It’s part of their schooling to learn how to drive in controlled conditions and under supervision.

      By the time they leave school they know how to drive safely and the dangers it causes if they don’t.

    • Macca says:

      09:18am | 10/02/10

      Good article Penbo, reckon you’ve hit the nail on the head. Prob your best one in while, geez you write some drivel wink

      But he who is without sin throw the first stone. How many of the Punchers today did not do stupid things when they were young. This should not be a Conversation about young people today. It is a statement about young people.

      I’m only a young fella and its taken me 5 years of driving to finally come to terms with my sense of invincibility. I’d be willing to wager that is not abnormal, or even a long time to come to that realisation. Fortunately, touch wood, I have never been involved in an accident.

      My Parents are both good drivers, and yet I still held these attitudes. I think I was just lucky that my parents put me in an old-ish (mid 90s) European car that shook when you pushed above 100km/h and was built like a brick outhouse. I reckon if you put an XR6 in my hands things could be very different

    • Rob says:

      09:20am | 10/02/10

      Getting old are we David?  Calls for MORE regulation (is the music a bit too loud for you?) will achieve nothing, problems occur when rules are ignored so more rules will achieve nothing.

      As usual the problem comes from social stimuli - peer group pressure, movies, tv etc.  I’m an old fart now as well, as a young driver I went too fast, I showed off, I don’t think I ever drove drunk however (alcohol just isn’t my thing, not trying to claim high moral ground with that one).

      These days kids have the same peer group pressure (want to do something about the road toll - start by making ALL passengers in a vehicle suffer the same penalty so passengers are encouraged to pull errant drivers into line), they have more and more “out there” movie and TV car chases and stunts to encourage them to think they can do things that are actually impossible without careful planning,  specially modded vehicles etc, they have a much wider range of drugs available (alcohol, e, fantasy etc not just the alcohol and dope we could access) and they’ve been brought up to think they can do anything.

      Couple that with road rules becoming a revenue raising activity rather than an exercise in safety and you have a recipe for disaster.

      we need to slim down the road rules to the greatest extent possible, get drivers of all ages focussed on road awareness not roadsign awareness which distracts from keeping eyes on the road, make all passengers in a car responsible, and make sure everyone has to pass a general test to get their licence, if under the simplified road rules they lose more than six points they need to take a test annually to renew their licence and provide government assisted defensive driving courses so nobody can claim they haven’t got the ability to afford it.

      Feel free to argue with me, but at least I’m proposing an alternative methodology rather than just having a whinge about it.

    • John says:

      09:22am | 10/02/10

      How about some personal responsibility? Am I really expected to care if someone (of whatever age) does something grossly stupid in a car and dies as a result of a totally avoidable accident? Because I don’t - I just don’t care, and why should I? To me the tragedy occurs not when a drunken fool hits a telegraph pole going 140, but when that same fool t-bones an innocent party at an intersection

    • Budz says:

      09:24am | 10/02/10

      Surely the Government is better off spending $200 milion on young driver education that upgrading security for airports? How many people die on the road compared to terrorist attacks in Australia?

    • TK says:

      12:00pm | 10/02/10

      I’d rather fly safely. At least you know those who are responsible for the planes are properly trained, tested, re-tested and certified, unlike drivers.

    • amanda says:

      09:26am | 10/02/10

      Having just spent hours with my learner who is now a p-plater I think I can understand the facebook page. I don’t think anything will change to the statistics but the good and sensible kids are penalised with four years of being on p plates. How about we bring in rewards for the good kids and reduce they p plate length if they don’t get any infringements?


      As an aside when my child went for his test he was one of three doing it at the same time. The other two men drove in alone, got out of their cars, put on the l-plates and came in to do the test. Both of them failed. They then returned to their cars, took off the l-plates and drove away.

    • Agent says:

      03:39pm | 10/02/10

      Because its about experience, not about the infringements. And lets be honest, how many people get away with breaking the laws everyday? We ALL do it now and again. At 26, I’ve been on the road since my 17th birthday (QLD’er) and have only been RBT’d once, and have somehow managed to avoided red light and speed cameras. But I know that I speed occasionally, and I push the orange light to the limit at times. I dont drink and drive, but thats probably more to do with me not really drinking at all than anything else.

      Young drivers are inexperienced, and much more susepitable to showing off and risky behaviour. Telling them they cant have friends in the car and cant drink at all takes away a couple of key risk factors.

      As mentioned in a post above - driving is a priveldge, not a right. And we all have to earn that right. The price is the P’s system, which may not be perfect but it tries.

    • Kon says:

      09:27am | 10/02/10

      WICKED ARTICLE, LOVE IT.

    • Duane says:

      09:30am | 10/02/10

      Why??? Because the responsible driver was being an irresponsible idiot. That’s why. My daughter decided she would stay out lter than usual one night, and was most angry with me when I pulled her up about it. I was summonsed to appear before the school counsellor. Sadly at the time, two girls of similar age had been murdered while out hitch-hiking. I used these two as an example, stating that in all probability, they too thought that ‘bad things only happen to other people’, and that from their perspective, my daughter was ‘other people’. It worked.

    • Cameron says:

      09:31am | 10/02/10

      Hear Hear.

    • David says:

      09:33am | 10/02/10

      Penbo, WTF dude, seriously. If the world actually listened to people like you, kids would have no rights whatsoever.

      Just keep something in mind. There are thousands upon thousands of young drivers out there, the vast majority do the right thing. It’s not fair to punish an entire generation of people because of a small handful. And yes. kids certainly DO need a car - my own youth would have been made extremely difficult without access to a car. Imagine if somenoe took the rights to your car away - we’ll see who cry’s foul then!!

      Would I also be correct in guessing you’re the type of person that’s only too happy to tar Generation Y with the “useless, lazy, arrogant bludger” brush?? Judging by the prejudice you show in this article, I would think I’m spot on with this.

    • Al says:

      09:33am | 10/02/10

      On the first day back at work last year I was stationary on a main road when I was hit from behind by a P plater. I was driven into at about 70km/h without braking, so I had no way to prepare for the impact. The driver was a 19 yo girl, flying on one point on her licence (won back on appeal in court so she could keep driving). I have sustained permanent damage as a result of the impact and it has messed my head up too. I saw the same driver only two months later, quickly scooting along the same road she hit me on. I wonder, who allows terrible drivers like this back on the road?

      Until young drivers experience what it is like to be involved in a hoorible collision, they will not understand what they are playing with. I say use them as real life crash test dummies in our now “safe” cars in low speed accidents, so they get a feel of what it’s all about..  should be compulsory.

    • Andrew K says:

      10:34am | 10/02/10

      Unfortunately a remarkably similar story here Al. I am deeply sorry for your situation. My wife sufferred exactly the same thing. Passenger in our car. Young (in this case 3-week licenced) P-Plater accelerated into the back of our stationary car at 70km/h. Despite destroying the front of her small car (including the radiator) she insisted on driving away. The car would have lasted less than a few km’s before overheating and destroying the engine. I hope this was not covered by insurance and she stayed off the road. This was in 2001. My wife’s neck (we were 21 at the time) shows no sign of returning to normality. No compensation ever received, even though she remains on permanent light work duties, not to mention the impact on social activites. Driving is a real thing with very real consequences - often for the innocent victims, but what do they care right?

    • HI says:

      09:35am | 10/02/10

      A simple way to introduce new drivers to safe driving practices would be to restrict them to underpowered cars. Driving a slow car forces them to learn patience, courtesy and caution.

    • Grant says:

      09:55am | 10/02/10

      Yep once again, I’m calling shenanigans.

      Don’t let factual statistical information affect what you write, that would be just well crazy… 

      I think cool heads and reasonable analysis better serves the public good than over-reacting to a spike in deaths over a small period when the overall statistics have been reducing.

      Road safety is infinitely better than it used to be, clearly proven below by the roads deaths listed below since 1981, this can be attributed to:

      - Better roads
      - Improved regulations (lower alcohol limits, reduced speed limits etc)
      - Compliance through policing
      - Improvements in technology (breathalysers and speed cameras)
      - Education (seatbelts, not drinking and driving, speed kills)
      - Much safer cars and associated car standards

      Year   deaths
      1981   3,321
      1987   2,772
      1993   1,953
      1999   1,764
      2005   1,627
      2006   1,601
      2007   1,616
      2008   1,464

      You will never reduce the road toll to zero that’s impossible with the human element attached to a vehicle.  Clearly 1464 deaths 1464 too many, however implying that there is an dramatic increase in the problem is disingenuous.

    • Jason says:

      11:19am | 10/02/10

      Grant - I appreciate your perspective, one of my close relatives works in this field (road trauma research) however and the problem is not with the majority of drivers, but the few who do not respond to the measures being implemented.  The overall road toll is being continually reduced by well targeted advertising, improvements to roads and improvements to the safety of vehicles - so you have my agreement here.

      Unfortunately none of the reductions in road toll have any bearing on the few (all ages) idiots who kills themselves and others as they don’t fit into the statistical average.  They ignore the ads, they drive in excess of their own capability, and well outside the conditions.  Ideally we need a way to identify those drivers - perhaps a psychological evaluation should be part of license testing?

    • formersnag says:

      12:08pm | 10/02/10

      Spot on the real question we should be asking is, why is the road toll not even higher? The population keeps increasing, especially in south east Queensland. Governments love banging on about this because it is a soft easy target, another way to blame ordinary voters for everything that is going wrong in the world & make us feel guilty about all of it. “stupid is as stupid does” Forrest Gump. There will always be somebody, somewhere, doing something silly, hurting themselves &/or somebody else. We do what we can with laws, education, etc & hope for the best.

    • Daniel says:

      10:00am | 10/02/10

      The problems are not the regulations - you can restrict the number of passengers, what we can drive and how ever many hours it takes to get your license (like that can’t be faked anyway) - you’re always going to get some fool that’s going to kill them self. The problem here in Australia is that you are taught how to pass the test, not how to drive. Introduce mandatory driving training, instead of another blanket rule and I bet you’ll see an improvement. Perhaps the government should also spend some money on providing venues (like a skid pan) where people could go do whatever they like for a small fee. Removing race tracks (eg. Oran Park) isn’t a good way to keep racing etc off the road.

    • Karyn says:

      09:59am | 10/02/10

      The Government cannot stop Evolution at work.  Stupid humans need to die - it improves the gene pool.

    • Budz says:

      10:29am | 10/02/10

      Haha, love it!

    • Bazza says:

      11:03am | 10/02/10

      Fundamentally true, but the problem is that these people offing themselves from this coil could end up taking out an innocent evolutionary link in the process.

    • Louise says:

      10:00am | 10/02/10

      My partner is a cop (Senior Sergeant in traffic).  I’ve lost count of the number of times that he has arrived home long after his shift should have ended, to let me know that he has spent the night, along with the Fire Service and Ambos lifting the remnants of dead teenagers and young adults out of cars.  It is not at all surprising to him that despite all the education campaigns and angst that is displayed when young people die that the rate of deaths are increasing, its his experience that they seem to have an increasingly reduced capacity to actually drive. Any fool can turn a car on, but driving involves all aspects of road craft and awareness.  That’s the problem.  Young people in the main, have no idea how to read the road. They don’t have any idea on how to watch traffic and predict what comes ahead, and ultimately they end up wrapped around a pole.  I’ve done some moronic things in my time but I would never have dreamed of filching my mum’s car keys to hop in the car and go to school.  Would not have entered into my head.  The 15 that recently drove is a case in point. His sister saw him take the keys, why in the hell did she let him out the house?  Did she, or anyone else really think, that despite a car being automatic that a kid knows how to drive?. 

      I hope that one day that one of the senior policemen that are invariably interviewed after these crashes gets up and says, not the usual diplomatic approach about being responsible and not driving to fast and the need for driver education and responsibility, but something along the lines of “I feel sorry for the families of these children, however, despite this it must be acknowledged that the police cannot do anything to protect others against their own stupidity, irresponsibility, and their clearly erroneous view that they are infallible.  We can have the best roads and driver education programs in the world but they mean nothing if people continue to kill themselves and others as a result of situations which could have been prevented if they’d used a little common sense”.  Yes there would be an outcry, but most people would be saying “Yep, you’re spot on there mate”.  Because, lets be honest – all of those accidents in New South Wales in which P platers died, are on closer examination, entirely and completely avoidable. 

      And to those kids laying wreaths at trees.  Yes, its awful that your friend died, but when the road accidents are cleaned up and the debris and blood are cleared away the full impact of what happens is not there to experience.  Young people do not see the real ramifications of what a fatal crash means – in terms of the destruction it leaves – a few dents on a tree do not give the whole picture.  When I was at school at 16 (admittedly it was a private school, so the government couldn’t steak their beak in, and the school had notified our parents beforehand – and it was 20 years ago) we had a cop come in and explain to us about road rules and accidents and such.  As part of that a film was shown of fatal car crashes (a lot of the hideously bad was not included – the decapitations etc) but it certainly put the wind up of me and it was very graphic.  Educating them is not working so perhaps scaring the bejusus out of them is. 

      One thing that my partner and I clearly agree on is that when our kids are old enough, we hope they’ll not be stupid enough to drive to parties. In fact, if we have anything to do with it, we’ll control access to the car keys.  However, our view is that no matter the time of night, and no matter how pissed they may be, they are to ring us and we’ll pick them up.  It may involve a great deal of embarrassment for them (in fact if you are too pissed to take a taxi you should be embarrassed), but we’d prefer them embarrassed and angry at us rather than dead.

    • Jolanda says:

      10:25am | 10/02/10

      I really do not think that my two kids of drinking age (18 & 19) would get into a car and drive while intoxicated or after drinking any amount of alcohol.  They are very aware about the consequences and it isn’t just the law, they would have to deal with me and I would confiscate the car and I would cease any financial contribution to them and they know it.  There are no excuses.  They would also have to listen to my lectures over and over again and trust me that is something that they do not want to have to deal with.

      We have been contacted by our son to collect him when he had intended not to drink and took his car but had changed his mind and had a drink.  We have no problem doing that so long as he doesn’t abuse it and we encourage him to plan his outings, including transport, but if he gets stuck to call us as usually his sister, my husband or I can get him.   

      One of my big concerns is them getting into the car with another driver who says that they haven’t been drinking but who may not be sober and/or who is irresponsible and my kids, if they have been drinking or have not been socialising directly with them, cannot tell.  I don’t know how many times I have drummed it into their head that I would much rather be woken up at 3.00 am in the morning by them asking me to pick them up from a party rather than be woken up by a Police Officer telling me that one of my kids was a passenger in a vehicle and are dead. 

      My poor kids they hear it over and over again.  I believe in drumming it into their heads.  Kids these days don’t like to be told but they need to be told.

    • AdamC says:

      10:02am | 10/02/10

      I don’t agree with any of this. While there has been a spate of P-plate driver deaths of late, the road toll has been trending down for years. High-profile statistical aberrations like the recent series P-plate of fatalities are hyped by the media into an ersatz ‘crisis’ which needs an oppressive, difficult-to-enforce government response.

      Are many young drivers dumb? Yes, probably. Have they been getting any dumber? Probably not.

      The obvious solution to this ‘problem’ would be to raise the driving age to at least 21. It is youth, rather than inexperience, which appears to be the prime risk factor here. However, I don’t endorse such a move. In the absence of any genuine increases in road trauma, it is not logically justifiable (however emotionally attractive it may be) to slap such an extreme restriction on young people, most of whom try to drive responsibly.

    • Warren says:

      10:01am | 10/02/10

      The parents and for that matter non-parents are just as bad. We live in a car loving culture that encourages everyone to treat the road as thjeir personal racetrack. Other road users can just get out of the way. Nothing is going to change as long as this culture persists. Bring on Peak Oil & 10$ a litre petrol.

    • Tracey says:

      10:02am | 10/02/10

      What a great article.

      The situation is a conundrum indeed. There are laws to stop this drink/drive and speeding behaviour. But, rarely they get caught, rarely receive and appropriate punishment and if they do lose thier licence, it is not great inconvenience as they just drive without it.. Eveything has failed.

      One solution is to take their cars away. Firstly for longer than 48hrs. The third time sell the car or crush it. They are left with a $30K loan to repay and will then lose their jobs coz they can’t get to them.

      Another is to limit their allowances from TAC and medicare for their injuries and death. They are all self inflicted and preventable.  Insurance doesn’t cover the driver in a car accident if you are drunk. Similarly why should the taxpayer have to pay?

      I like to think i am a safe driver. I drive within speed limits, sober and obey road rules. I demand to be protected from road death caused by one of these drivers.

      Until then it is a bit like Darwin said. Survival of the fittest. You don’t obey road rules and common sense and you kill yoursely, taking your useless genes out of the gene pool ensuring they don’t get passed on.

    • Tom says:

      11:51am | 10/02/10

      If you don’t fund injury coverage for car crashes, where do you draw the line? Do you not give medicare coverage to the obese, smokers, people with bad genes who pass them on? Regardless of the stupidity of some drivers, we are not savages, and part of this is offering medical assistance to those who require it, regardless of why they require it.

      And by the way, just because you don’t speed and obey road rules doesn’t necessarily make you a safe driver. Andrew Scipione (NSW Police Commissioner) had a crash a few days ago whilst not speeding, not fatigued and sober. It is perfectly possible to have a crash without breaking any road rules.

    • Max says:

      10:05am | 10/02/10

      You know what the real problem is?  The proliferation of popular, advertising funded media.

      The rate of vehicle deaths per kilometre has been dropping dramatically for over 30 years across all demographics.  Cars are safer, roads are safer, and people who are not distracted are generally just as competent drivers.  In fact it’s much safer to drive a car down the road than it is to walk along the same route.

      But let’s not let facts get in the way of emotional outcries, editorials, and front page, graphic articles.

      And of course all this outcry means that the police, no longer have to do anything about actualy crime, they can spend all their time sitting in a parked van while a machine takes photos of cars and claim that they’re doing their job to keep the country safe.

    • Vanessa says:

      08:15am | 01/09/10

      Nice comment!

    • H says:

      10:07am | 10/02/10

      As the victim of a p-plater failing to give way, who still refuses to take responsibility for his actions..  Something has to give..  I now have no car, I wasn’t insured, so I do take that hit on the chin, but neither was he.. I have a pregnant wife and a 9 month old son..  They need to be shown that their actions have wider consequences..

    • SkyPilot says:

      10:52am | 10/02/10

      Mate you have my sympathies, I had an old reliable banger I used for work, the wife had the swishier car. Same thing happened to me on the way to work, I to was uninsured. I gave all my details, even though I was not at fault and then got repeated text messages from this kid demanding money from me. I had to go to the police, the whole thing turned into a nightmare. Needless to say I had to buy another car, it was a very costly experience and I am very wary of any P Plater driving near me now. Fortunately my phone had a camera and I took photos at the scene or I am sure this kid would have kept pursing me for money. The Police were brilliant, I have not heard from this person since.

    • Rebecca says:

      10:09am | 10/02/10

      I don’t know how the system works in other states, but in Queensland we now have to have 100 hours of driving experience before we can even get out P’s, and later this year it will be raised to 200 hours.P platers are not allowed to drive high powered cars, nor carry more than one passenger after 11pm. We need to stop whinging, because clearly the government is trying to implement laws that will attempt to save young lives.

      Everyone also seems to be forgetting that there are thousands of young P plate drivers who are responsible, courteous and safe road users. A young man died in my town recently, and this was the fault of a truck driver, not the P plate boy. These stupid kis who drive drunk, at ridiculous speeds and with overloaded cars, are giving the rest a bad name.

    • Roberto says:

      10:12am | 10/02/10

      A perceptive and sensible analysis of a problem that will not go away as long as young people (particularly young men) are granted licences when they are clearly not competent to drive.

    • Craig says:

      10:13am | 10/02/10

      I agree with Grant, that there is not enough analysis of the statistics. One thing that needs to be recognised is that all things being equal, younger drivers will always be overrepresented in the statistics. The reason is that the less experience you are the more likely you are to make a mistake (or be silly, notm understanding the implications of such silliness). It is an ugly fact of life that we learn through experience.

      One crticial aspect is education: advanced driver training would reduce accidents anyway. The other thing is these courses graphically teach how difficult it is to, for example, stop suddenly in the wet.

      Parental attitudes are critical: I (and others my age)  remember being encouraged to get a licence so that our parents would have someone else to drive when they went to some event and they wanted to have a few. Not exactly the best message to send (although admittedly a lot better than drinking and driving).

      I’m not sure that more restrictions are the answer, they interfere with people who do the right thing and are ignored by those who do the wrong thing. We have statistics on drinking or speeding being a factor in accidents, so we have statistics on the number of people in a car?

    • amanda says:

      11:18am | 10/02/10

      I do as your parents did. Since my son has got his licence I have really been grateful that at last I can have a drink when we go out for a meal and then he can drive as he hasn’t been drinking. As I am not a regular drinker I think I am teaching him something not being irresponsible

    • Nick says:

      10:13am | 10/02/10

      I think all P platers should be on their P’s for 20 years. Every year they should do ridiculously easy multiple choice tests that cost a lot of money so they can change the colour of their P’s, all while dealing with extremely rude RTA people.

      Oh wait, that’s already the case in NSW.

    • tom says:

      10:15am | 10/02/10

      How about we just shoot them all right now guaranteed no road deaths and no worrying about how to restrict them and its for their own good really

    • Ross says:

      10:18am | 10/02/10

      First off The parents should have to pay for the tree or whatever repair after there stupid brat hit it.Plus the funerels of the passengers killed with them. Don’t overeducate these young drivers with advanced driving techniques they cant control themselves let alone a powerfull car.Insurance companies should also play a bigger part in this ,by not insuring these clowns without a bond returnable after three or so years of a good record.

    • Tom says:

      10:19am | 10/02/10

      The NSW P plate laws banning turbo/supercharged cars are absurd. My younger brother is on his P’s still, and has the bizarre situation where he can drive my dad’s BMW X5 twin turbo diesel (turbo diesels are exempt from the law), which is quite fast and weighs more than 2 tonnes (admittedly it is very safe), but he can’t drive my mum’s VW Golf 1.4, which is much lighter and slower, and hence much less likely to kill another person should he hit them, and has stability control and a 5 star safety rating.

      Getting P Platers out of rubbish old Commodores and Falcons with no safety features, and extremely poor handling would save lives. I have noticed that most of the people killed in the last few days have been driving these cars.

    • Andrew says:

      04:19pm | 10/02/10

      No, most of them were driving new Falcons (XR6 gets a few mentions) with heaps of safety features and better handling than 90% of the cars on the road - certainly infinitely better than a lump of a top-heavy X5 SUV. But safety features don’t help when you hit at tree at 150km/h, neither does handling when you pass those limits. You can drive an old Camira at 160 km/h if you have enough road - you can’t spot people committing suicide just by getting them into worse cars.

    • Tom says:

      01:35pm | 11/02/10

      I saw a couple of BA XR6s, and I would disagree that they are a safer car than an X5. Yeah, they could probably corner a bit harder on a skid pan, but RWD cars will inherently oversteer, whereas AWD cars are more neutral. The X5 also has stability control (absolutely crucial), active differentials, and a jumping castle full of air bags.

      There is a difference between being a good handling car and a safe car. A Ferrari 599 is a good handling car, I still wouldn’t trust a P plater with one. What is more important is how it reacts if you overcook it. As I said, RWD cars without stability control will oversteer, which is much harder to control than the tendency of FWD/AWD cars to understeer.

    • SM says:

      10:19am | 10/02/10

      Simple solution. Any driver (P plater or not) who is caught going more than 10km over the speed limit is automatically fined $25,000 and their licence suspended for 10 years.  Their wages are garnished every week until the fine is paid.  As for drink driving, if you’re caught over the limit you get an automatic lifetime driving ban and a $100,000 fine

      The road toll would be slashed

    • Vanessa says:

      08:22am | 01/09/10

      That is the most absurd comment I have ever heard of!

      You really think that is going to SOLVE problems? You won’t have a road toll slashed, you’ll have a government slashed! Friggin’ hell! What are you thinking mate… If you’re going to make a change to the law as drastic as that, it should apply to EVERYONE, not just the P-plate drivers. I hope that comment was a joke… :I

    • brad says:

      10:20am | 10/02/10

      great article. getting to the point. im a p plater myself, ill be finished my p plating period not too much later this year, and im still yet to drive like an idiot It’s not all P-platers on the road’s that are being f*&kwits;. Is anyone else getting sick of reading about the driver of these horrific accidents being behind the wheel of holden commodores? Maybe its time the governments changed the law and restricted p platers to 4 cylinder cars under a certain kw of power.

    • louiecat says:

      04:01pm | 25/05/10

      I heard there was a study done that said that the most reckless drivers are those who drive Holden Commodores and the more I’m driving along thinking about it, the more I think they’re right…

    • MM Fike says:

      10:21am | 10/02/10

      The lack of common sense is the problem.
      Who in their right mind plants the pedal to the metal and thinks nothing can happen.
      One of the greatest gifts a parent can give a child is common sense.
      Basic common sense will save you from drowning in flooded creeks through to dying from hitting a tree at high speed.

    • Andrew K says:

      10:23am | 10/02/10

      I don’t think that putting all our trust in licensed driving teachers is the ultimate panacea either. The other day a fully marked driving school car undertook at an intersection my left turning long vehicle clearly marked with the standard “DO NOT OVERTAKE TURNING VEHICLE” (almost losing the drivers side of his small car if not worse) then proceeded to cut in front into my braking space a few hundred metres up the road leaving nothing for it to gently run up the back of him when I simply ran out of braking space and power. To the incredulation of all around he then went through a red light, leaving the scene. A formal complaint was made to the Police and management of the well known driving school - phone number conveniently advertised on said car.

      These are the people teaching our kids to drive. It is not only P-platers that don’t care. It is MOST motorists, and even those we pay to care. Everything (including them) is more important than APPLYING yourself to what is an inherrently dangerous task. Driving is not a chore, it is a skill. teaching it is not a menial job. It is a right in Australia, despite any token phrases to the contrary. We give everyone who wants a licence one, unless they are the absolute worse of the worst. Then they will simply join all the unlicenced others who just couldn’t be bothered trying for a licence at all. Driving in Australia is seen as a fundamental human right given that widespread, effient public transport is simply unavailable because of the geographic/population ratio.

      To my mind the only countenance to this is a highly visable highway patrol. Of course they cannot be everywhere at once, but when 9 times out of 10 you can complete a trip (in many cases hundred of kilometres) without seeing any enforcement, for most unthinking people there is simply no reason to comply with any of the increasing rules we are coming up with. People do NOT appreciate the danger. Everything is more important. Without a real reason to change their behaviour (ie real threat of punishment) nothing will change. Don’t believe me, see how many people stop speeding, tailgating, failing to keep left when there is a double-demerit point blitz. It is astounding. People can drive properly when they perceive real enforcement.

    • Thomas says:

      10:25am | 10/02/10

      As a strict pedestrian, the problem isn’t P platers. It is ALL irrisponsible drivers.  Yeah, I know P platers who drive badly, but I also know ones who are amoungst the best drivers I know. I see appauling road habits, from mothers speeding and crossing traffic islands in their four by fours to cut of a few minutes of travel time with their kids in the car, to drink driving (often with the kids in the car) all the time. This is the main issue.. people driving poorly infront of their children.

      I know you need 100 hours, but when many of them are done under the supervision of parents, who themselves have bad habits, they are meaningless. As an older person with no parents local to teach me, I must do them under the supervision of a qualified instructor… perhaps everyone should have too.

      Punishment also needs to be stricter. Everyone does 100 hours, and everyone pays for and passes a very expensive test.. so why, exactly, is it tolerated for anyone to break the rules, even once? Surely it should be retest for first offense, if it is something major.. drink driving comes to mind…. perminant removal and banning from driving for life for second.

    • Cly says:

      10:25am | 10/02/10

      I agree and frankly I’d like to see drivers confined to government regulated 3- cylinder cars for the first five years and a compulsory passing of a defensive driving course prior to being granted an open licence. Tougher penalties need to be imposed as well and not only for P-platers. At the very least quadruple all fine amounts across the board and have the information on each citizens driving history publicly accessible. Driving legally is a privilege. Society should put forward attaining your open licence as something to be proud of accomplishing, and something potential employers should be looking for at when screening for potential employees - being responsible on the roads is one of the most important things you can do in your life, it shows respect for rules, regulations and the safety of everyone around you. Checking your driving record along with a drug test should be standard protocol when hiring. A bad driving record should be seen by society as disgusting as drug dealing - both are seriously risking the lives of children and adults alike every single day.

      I don’t see the need for those high powered cars either that I often see or hear racing round the streets. Why make cars that can go so fast? There is no actual need for them to be able to reach speeds over our current highest speed limit. Frankly, anyone caught going 15km over the speed limit should have a minimum of six months in jail. If you can’t be responsible enough to stay on or under the speed limit you shouldn’t be allowed to drive. It’s not hard.

    • BigBob says:

      10:27am | 10/02/10

      As an older driver, I can tell you P Platers bad behavior on the road has nothing to do with either Kevin Rudd or Tony Abbott. Young men feel they are bullet proof, they show off to their mates and are out to impress the girls. The only thing that has changed since I got my license as far as behavior goes is now the girls are doing it to. The frontal lobe is not even formed and we put a deadly weapon in their hands. I truly feel the licensing age should be lifted to 21. I also feel the drinking age should be lifted to 21 also. These kids are important, they are our kids. We need to help them till stay alive. In doing so we also help ourselves, the next car that they collide with could be yours or mine.

    • Jason says:

      10:26am | 10/02/10

      Drivers education doesn’t help the people who hoon - it gives very little extra skill (skill comes from years of experience in driving) and a lot of excess confidence.  This has been confirmed by studies around the world and is the same reason pilots under 250 hours (with the best training) are more likely to have an accident - it’s all practice and learning through repeated exposure.

      Personally I think a safe way of subjecting new drivers to medium level crash forces (maybe a crash test centre converted to be safe) before they start driving might be an answer.  70kph to 0 in an instant is just not understood until you have been through it - a young driver will be less likely to hoon if they understand the immense forces involved.  It’s no good telling them - they have to be shown, and the risk has to be personal.

    • Sarah says:

      10:27am | 10/02/10

      I am an 18-year old Green P plater. I have had my licence for nearly 2 years, and have always treated it as a privelidge, not as a right. I personally believe that the education of young people (in terms of driving) starts in the PASSENGER seat, as a passenger, not when they first hop into the drivers seat. I do not deny that there is a startling increase in the amount of young people being killed or injured on our roads, because its more than obvious. But I have argued this point since I first obtained my licence, and will continue to argue. NOT ALL P-PLATERS ARE IDIOTS. During my HSC in 2008, a few of my peers were killed in a car accident. They were driving around the local area, whilst they were supposed to be at school for an exam. The incident was a massive shock, and affected my whole grade massively. But as we were soon to learn, the incident was not infact our peer’s fault, but a fully licenced driver who witnesses say came flying over a crest, onto the wrong side of the road and our friend tried to swerve to miss the lunatic, ending up wrapped around a pole.
      Like I said, I’m not in any way denying that there is an increasing problem with a minority of selfish idiots who believe driving around in their hot cars is a god given right. But from my own experience, I can’t help but wonder why we’re asking so many questions when the evidence is there to suggest that it’s not just us “idiot p-platers” that are the problem. I drive along Sydney’s Victoria Road every day to and from work, and If I had to count the amount of fully licenced drivers who don’t indicate, exceed the speed limit, cut me off and just drive like general idiots, I’d probably lose my mind. And people wonder why us p-platers are such great drivers, with role models like that. I’m all for extra driver education for p-platers, and maybe to refresh some older driver’s memories. Let’s educate everybody about safe driving, not just those of us given a bad name by a selfish minority.

    • Nic says:

      10:31am | 10/02/10

      A great article David, well done.l

    • Tom says:

      10:34am | 10/02/10

      When you have so many people on the roads, there will always be a certain percentage of accidents and certain percentage of those will involve deaths. A certain percentage will be P platers. Just as a certain percentage will be 40 year old males and a certain percentage 65 year old females.

      Are P-platers over represented in the statistics? Have a look at government statistics on road deaths. Specifically have a look at the last annual ‘snapshot’ http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/safety/publications/2009/rsr_04.aspx

      Ages 17-25 had a representation of 181 deaths in 2008 (that’s just drivers)while the age group of 40-59 had a representation of 192 deaths (again, just drivers).

      Overall there was a decline of deaths by 8.7% from the previous year (across all age groups)

      The average decline over the last five years has been 1.4% per annum (across all age groups)

      The age group of 17-25 has had the highest statistical drop over 5 years (with the exception of 0-17 year olds - where these were mostly passenger deaths).

      What does this all mean?

      I think it means that there is often too much of a knee jerk reaction to media reports and not enough quantitative analysis. It’s emotive to see the effects of a single crash and how this affects a family and those around them, but how is this different to the effects felt on the family of a 45 year female who falls asleep at the wheel and crashes into oncoming traffic?

      The difference is P-platers can be bashed in the media for the first story, while everyone just shakes their heads and says ‘how sad’ and moves on in the second story.

      By the way, I’m not a P-plater.

    • Grant says:

      11:05am | 10/02/10

      Could not agree more.

      I think there needs to be more accountability.  Please please follow the basic tenets of the journalistic code in regards to research and fact checking.

      That would be nice.

    • NiceGuy says:

      11:06am | 10/02/10

      17-25 is only 8 years, 40-59 is 19 years, so the younger age group has essentially double the amount of deaths than the older age group (assuming each single year has equal number of people).

      So yes, they are over represented.

      What you actually need is the _numbers_ of drivers in each age group, and the number of deaths.. using the statistics like you have above is proving nothing.

    • James says:

      10:43am | 10/02/10

      Thanks David.  Someone had to say it.

    • Scott Glennon says:

      10:45am | 10/02/10

      Teach respect for a vehicle and the road, through fear like it used to be. Toowoomba used to dump the remains of death vehicles on the side of the road in view of all prior to Easter and Christmas holidays, with simple signage, such as “Drink Driver.” “Was doing an estimated 130 p/h,” “No seat belt,” “Breaks failed.”
      Unfortunately this was found to be offensive by those who’s friends and family members were killed… In my opinion it was effective not offensive, as when it is school holidays, I still have the images of those vehicles run through my mind.
      I’d like to see the QLD police and Department of QLD Transport pause focus on fear through TV and radio and move to real life examples that people can see and feel as they experience them.

    • NiceGuy says:

      11:43am | 10/02/10

      It’s interesting your bring this up. I still vividly remember a billboard that I saw as a child. It was the smashed front end of a car attached to the billboard with the slogan along the lines of “even with both windows down and the stereo wound up to 11 this driver couldn’t stay awake”. What I find most amazing about it is that I would have seen that billboard over 25 years ago and it has had a very real and lasting impact on me.

      I think this form of visual deterrent is excellent.

      Even now, a trip to a damaged/recovered car auction is a great eye opener. When you see a car wrecked, airbags deployed.. blood and all.. you realise how serious it is (search pickles auctions for damaged cars, it’s scary).

    • Tess says:

      01:18pm | 10/02/10

      Fantastic idea.  Shock and awe! 

      Instead, how about a DVD showing images of crash scenes - particularly those of young drivers who thought they were invincible - with similar labels of what caused the crash.  Ten or so minute should do the trick.  And include a section on how passengers can convince an idiot driver to slow down.

      The responsible parents will make their kids sit and watch it.  Those who mollycoddle their kids and don’t want them exposed to anything ugly will end up taping flowers to a power pole and saying it isn’t fair and blaming everyone else but themselves.

    • Andrew K says:

      02:32pm | 10/02/10

      There was an awesome YouTube clip I saw a few months ago that was a compilation of safe driving adverts from around the world, done to the soundtrack of Evanescences ‘My Immortal’. It was linked though a car forum. I am a 14 year experienced driver, have sat defensive, advanced, off road and competition driving courses and tests and have driven over 600,000km in a variety of vehicles up to Heavy Rigid. I don’t know who comiled the clip of generally government sanctioned ads, but it was phenominal and had a profound impact on me. Even after all that experience and training. Aptitude is one thing, but often its attitude that is the killer. Maybe the owner of the clip could rename it “fully hectic fails” or some such thing to get the youth to look at it. PS. Other governments (partic European) are MUCH more in favour of shock and awe than we are. Even thinking about it now scares the crap out of me.

    • NiceGuy says:

      10:46am | 10/02/10

      What I find fascinating is that in the recent spate of accidents it’s all Falcons and Commodores. What I would love to see is if the traction control is on when the cars crash.

      I can’t help but think that this ‘bogan button’ is half to blame for this insanity. All it takes is a few friends wind up the driver to hit the bogan button and drop some fishies and it doesn’t take much to have a power pole lodged between your two front seats.

      The fact you are even able to turn off a safety feature like traction control amazes me..

      Queue the bogan pride / backlash.

    • Andrew K says:

      11:22am | 10/02/10

      Vehicle data loggers will probably have this info. There was a relatively recent case where the parents of a p-plater who crashed resisted the admissibility of the evidence. The data exists, whether or not it is admissible in court is another thing.

    • Tristan says:

      11:01am | 10/02/10

      I want to quickly state I’ve never blogged on something before. However mindless, one-sided, sensationalist journalism like this is rubbish and obviously written by some old person with an agenda against young people as a whole. I haven’t even been on P-plates for years but stuff like this still makes me wonder what people are thinking.

      However firstly credit where credit is due, I totally agree with the point stating that the public is too quick to blame police, society or anyone but the people acting dangerously and breaking the law. I also agree that parents all point to someone other than themselves or their kids when their scum children do something wrong which is a disgrace.

      Which brings me to my second point why are we making all kids follow these rules when 90% of kids are doing the right thing? It’s time to crack down on the young people doing the wrong thing, not punishing the good kids who are acting sensibly. P-plate drivers should be allowed to be designated drivers for their young drunk friends; it’s responsible and safer than the alternative options in most cases. You might not have noticed but Sydney transport is the worst transport bang for buck in a non-third world country on the planet and Melbourne is far from safe late at night. So I don’t quite understand the writers comment about most young people should be using public transport not driving. I know in Sydney unless you work in town and live near a train station forget about it. I know anyone who suggests public transport is the be all and end all in Sydney obviously doesn’t use it often.

      Third, anyone making blanket statements about how bad young people’s driving is should have a look at there own driving. I know for me often the dumb things I see done in peak hour traffic are done by fellow full licence drivers.

      Lastly might I state compared to the writer of this article that young drivers already have to go through a lot more education and training to get their license, yet naturally that hasn’t been taken into consideration at all ….

    • amanda says:

      11:29am | 10/02/10

      Sorry but being a designated driver for a whole lot of drunks is asking for trouble. Have you ever driven with drunk passenger?  They pull up the handbrake, shift the gear stick, put their feet up over the windscreen and even pull the hat over your eyes to see if you can drive blind. I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if many of the accidents that are blamed on the driver are actually the responsibility of the passengers. I know several kids that will never put their hands up to be the driver after the stupid antics of the mates they were doing a favour for.

    • Vicky says:

      11:05am | 10/02/10

      Yes we’ve all been young but we weren’t all stupid. Just because you’re young, does it necessarily mean you have to or want to do stupid and reckless things? Not only are these KIDS putting their lives in grave danger, but other people’s on the road as well. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen idiotic drivers on the road (and not all of them on P’s.. some of them looked well toward the age 30 end of the bracket!) risking people’s lives with their stupid driving.

      I do think that parents should seriously give their kids a talk and try to inject some common sense into their minds- things such as not getting into a car if your drunk friend plans to be driving home, or not feel the need to buckle under pressure if their friends encourage them to speed up. I know these things sound far easier in theory than in practice. But there has to be a solution somewhere. I do agree with confiscating cars and raising the drinking age to 21- those things might help. Whatever is done, I hope kids wake up to themselves- they see this happen on a regular occurrence- and if can happen to the 18 year old kid a few suburbs away, it can happen to anyone. Nobody is invincible and nobody is above the law.

      Dave, I wholeheartedly agree with your blog.

    • QLD Firefirghter says:

      11:10am | 10/02/10

      I have just looked at the facebook page.  to say the least, I am deeply shocked at the mentality displayed on that page.  As a firefighter, who has to cut these people/bodies out of their wrecks, I would dearly love to track everyone of the people who are on that page down, and force them to sit through several hours of Footage we have of accidents involving L platers,  and P Platers.

    • Jeremy says:

      11:18am | 10/02/10

      David,
      Congratulations on your column, most if it needed to be said.  Your comments regarding attitudes I think are a keen observation and need to be addressed, however I do take issue with the suggestion of mandatory defensive driver training.
      There is no data that shows that defensive driver training reduces the risk of crashing.  There are arguements within the road safety industry that such courses provide a false sense of security and potentially INCREASE the risk of a crash.  Experience is proven to reduce the risk of crashing, hence the 120 hours requirement.
      My suggestion is to forget about lifting the drinking age to 21, instead lift the driving age to 21 but leave learner permits at 16.  This means learners (the safest on the road when supervised) get up to 5 years of experience and have potentially cooler heads.
      I think the new vehicle restrictions (Victoria) are a mistake and a step backwards.  The previous power to weight ratio restriction, which if memory serves was around 165-170kW/t, was a better way to go about it.  Many car manufacturers are heading away from large capicity 6 cylinder engines (currently legal for P platers) in favour of small capacity turbo 4 cylinder enginers (illegal for P platers) for better fuel economy, not for performance reasons.  The exemption list will always be playing catch up with a blanket ban on turbos.  I would much rather see a P plater in a new, 5 star, turbo 4 cylinder Falcon (apparently in development) than a Chrysler E49 Charger R/T 6 muscle car from the ‘70s!
      Overall, a much needed column, David.

    • Michael says:

      12:22pm | 10/02/10

      The comment that there is no evidence that defensive driver training reduces crashes and that it may increase the risk of a crash is typical of the nonesense produced by bad research. These claims are based on a survey of graduates of advanced COMPETITION driving schools not advanced ROAD driving - a completely different thing. The best example of the reduction in crashes after advanced training for the road is the UK Police Driver Training School at Hendon. Ordinary (ie not pursuit) drivers halved their crash rate after it was introduced. Denmark changed their emphasis to defensive driving in their driver test and acheived a substantive reduction in new driver crashes. The exclusion rules for cars mean that the safest new cars such as the 4 cylinder Mercedes C200 is prohibited for P-Platers but its more powerful bigger engined models are acceptable. DUMB. There is no research which shows that more powerful cars are over represented in young drivers crashes when all other factors are taken into account. It is another hysteria driven rule.

    • Tom says:

      01:14pm | 10/02/10

      If it were true that driver training made drivers more likely to crash, it would have to be the only activity known where knowing how to do it properly makes it more dangerous. Certainly, the aviation industry is a good example. Australia has both rigorous training requirements, and an excellent safety record in aviation - and the licensing age for planes is 16, like cars.

      My belief is that such claims are a convenient fiction employed by politicians who would rather take cheap, populist and revenue raising options such as harsher fines, as opposed to action such as introducing compulsory driver training which would cost large amounts of money. There is some merit in the claim advanced/race driver training is harmful, but I fail to see how defensive driver training can be harmful.

    • Sean says:

      11:18am | 10/02/10

      I must say I have not had the time to read everyone’s comments. I think most are off topic as the story was “Time to stop mollycoddling prats with P-plates”, not my view off how if I was in charge the laws I’d change. No need to crush cars, just enforce the highest level of sentencing that is available to law enforcers and making all drivers accountable. We have a problem in our current age is that we mollycoddled our youth which now have spawned a generation of “I’ll do what I want and I’ll have it my way” or I’ll throw myself on the floor and cry. Parents, schools, DO-GOODERS have restricted us from discipline being taught at early stages of growth. 18 years old is a man or woman not a child! I agree with the punch please stop this roadside wailing and balling as it makes me want to puke! NO MORE ROADSIDE MEMORIALS THAT’S WHAT GRAVEYARDS ARE FOR.

    • Simone Bond says:

      11:20am | 10/02/10

      David,  your excellent article was being discussed very early on radio this morning - you have echoed the thoughts of many.

      Why is there not a thorough investigation into driving schools, examination of the qualifications of the instructors and how many of the drivers involved in these P-plate accidents were trained by which schools.  One hears so many things about schools rushing students through just to get them licensed.

    • Michael says:

      11:20am | 10/02/10

      I have had an interest in road safety even before I was first licenced almost 50 years ago. Unfortunately far too many road safety initiatives are driven by hysteria and fed by opportunistic journalists; other than engineering solutions few, if any, are properly investigated to check for efficacy. My profession was the assessment of technological research including its commercial prospects etc and I am appalled by the standards in road safety research; most of it is so poor it would have been rejected as a school science project. Peer review by the same cabal is worthless.
      We have an obsession with speed limitation. How can an arbitrary number create safety? No limits are scientifically set; they are the outcome of muddle-headed politics and hysterical substitute for thought.
      We have the first world’s lowest standard of driver training and testing. Even the revised NSW test is still not as stringent as the UK test that I passed nearly 50 years ago. We substitute 120 hours in a log book supervised mostly by people who are not fit to have a licence in the first place and P-plates with restrictions for proper tuition. We limit learners to 80 kph; how can we teach them to drive on a country road, to overtake, to join a freeway or drive on one. Where is defensive driving, where is exposure to slippery conditions and skid management, where is emergency braking and experience with anti-lock braking and what it can and cannot do for you.
      We have loud mouths calling for ever more draconian legislation without any concept of understanding.
      We have people objecting to high level tuition because it costs too much; its a damn site cheaper than a funeral.
      We ask who is responsible for young peoples deaths on the roads. Look in the mirror; the answer is staring you in the face.

    • Steve says:

      11:21am | 10/02/10

      How does a republic have anything to do with driving safety?! These republicans really are obsessed! There are lots of republics around the world with varying levels of road accidents.

      As for Ps - my sense is that the whole P plate system is geared more towards collecting revenue for the government through extra application fees and testing fees than promoting safety.

      Finally, the press always tells us when an accident involved P platers. If every serious accident involving fully licensed drivers began with the headline ‘An accident involving fully licensed drivers resulted in x deaths last night…’ then everyone would be up in arms about the crisis of fully licensed drivers and demanding re-testing of middle aged drivers. Could some journos maybe do their job, do some research and give us the actual statistics? How many accidents are there involving only fully licensed drivers?

    • Annie says:

      11:36am | 10/02/10

      It should be law that while on P Plates Red, Green or otherwise they should only be able to own a 4 cylinder vehicle. Yes the farm kids can drive the farm ute on private property hurt only themselves. Six cylinder vehicles these days have as much if not more power than a eight cylinder of years gone by. If you actually look at the vehicles in the majority of the hoon clips or fatal accidents they are six cylinders or four cylinders turbo charged ban the modifications and if parents allow their kids to drive their own high powered vehicles then they also wear the fine.  Simple simple simple. Once off P Plates they have notched up 3 years of experience no one needs more than a four cylinder to safely drive according to speed limits.

    • David C says:

      11:40am | 10/02/10

      Absolute tragedy. Agree 100% with David, poor parenting and poor upbringing and no sense of values. End of story.

    • DW says:

      11:41am | 10/02/10

      Car restrictions need to be based on Power/Weight ratio, not engine types. It would be hard to wrap a Niki around a power pole. P Platers aren’t the only offenders on the roads. You dont have to go long in Brisbane before seeing someone breaking the law. I think their should be mandatory re-testing of all drivers every 3-5 years. The road rules test too maybe. I know i did mine 20 years ago and rules have changed in many areas but the government never lets drivers know. And why isnt there a national road rules set, drive over the border from QLD to NSW and there are differences…i could go on and on…..

    • Annie says:

      12:56pm | 10/02/10

      The thing is if we allowed the only own 4 cylinders we are not restricting the use of the parents higher powered vehicle but they wouldn’t be able to pimp it up and act a hoon and whatever fine is incurred by hooning in the parents vehicle the driver and owner of the car gets fined, force them to parent. If a P Plater wants to own their own vehicle it can only be a unmodified 4 cylinder, I know any car can be involved in an accident but i cant see any of the hoons drifting around corners in the pimped up NIKI somehow haha It is only cool if you own your own pimped up car, this law will eliminate the coolness of having a high powered vehicle cos they wont be able to own one.

    • Vanessa says:

      11:10am | 01/09/10

      I am so sick of hearing about this power/weight ratio for young drivers. It doesn’t depend on the car, but the PERSON. Young people will manage to find damage no matter what car they drive. You don’t see many accidents with high powered cars do you?

    • Sally says:

      11:46am | 10/02/10

      May be we can look at what happens when a suspended driver gets his licence back? From what I’ve heard (I’ve never lost my licenec) they just walk back into the RTA after they suspension is over and are handed a license! How about if you lose your licence go back to the beginning that goes for all ages not just P platers

    • John says:

      11:50am | 10/02/10

      There is no solution. The government can only impose draconian rules and regulations which infringe on the rest of us. Politicians have to be seen doing something when Young people die on our roads. 

      So the real question is, how do you stop the minority of idiots killing themselves and others. The answer is reduce suspension times, but on you’re 3rd time driving without a licence or drink driving should be an automatic jail sentence for 1 month Minimum (No exceptions who you are). So three chances then jail.

      How about we make people responsible for their actions while intoxicated. I’s so sick of the defence I’m sorry your honour I was drunk, this is not my normal behaviour. Did society put the drink in your hand, did it make you drink a bottle of Jim Beam, No. If you drink then you should be held fully accountable for you’re action’s.

    • Kate says:

      12:07pm | 10/02/10

      I think more driver’s education is a decent idea, but the problem is that most of these idiots do know how to drive with some degree of competency. They wouldn’t get their license if they didn’t. The problem isn’t a lack of driving skills but some people’s decision to deliberately drive like suicidal morons. And that’s why I think this article is one of the most sensible I’ve read on this issue.

      The wrong questions are being asked by many people. Eg: Where were the police? Well, the police can’t be everywhere at all times. What are the government doing? Plenty of laws exist to regulate young drivers - but some people actively choose to ignore them. The responsibility for sensible road use lies with the road users themselves, and in the case of young adults, with their parents.

      It’s not a comment that is often publicly made after these incidents, but I do think that some people are just guaranteed to act like idiots no matter how many legislative roadblocks you put in their way. It would be a pity to punish all P-platers - 90% of whom drive sensibly, obey road rules, and respect the potential dangers that come with car ownership - for the behaviour of a bunch of idiots who if they weren’t using cars to kill each other, would be fooling around and risking their lives some other way.

    • Budz says:

      12:25pm | 10/02/10

      Kate, but it’s not only the 10% of idiot P platers that die on our roads. Out of the rest of the 90% they don’t all know how to drive for the conditions. A lot of the youngsters that die on the roads just don’t know any better.

      When I mean better education I don’t just mean tellimg them speeding is bad, but to send them to driving education where they learn the importance of slowing down when it’s wet, not tail gating etc.

    • James says:

      12:57pm | 10/02/10

      Sad isn’t it Budz?  That people need to be taught common sense.

    • Nigel says:

      03:50pm | 10/02/10

      The belief that getting their licence automatically means they are competent to drive is an issue.  Most modern cars have ABS, power steering, some sort of stability control system and learners who do their driving test in these vehicles don’t knopw how to drive, they simply know how to point the vehicle in the right direction.  It’s difficult to spint the wheels if you acceloerate to hard or if there is some toehre reason for you to lose traction.  It is impossible to lock-up a wheel with ABS and stability control but these cars are just as much a dangerous weapon as ones made 30 years ago.  Unexpected things happen on roads and trainee drivers need to feel what can happen to a car when one wheel loses traction, when two wheels skid and when the whole car slides, they will then understand how you as the driver can compensate and what sort of warning you get before losing control.  When they get back in their highly computerised vehicle, they will be better drivers for the experience.
      I’m sure I’ll be lambasted for being an old fuddy-duddy but I do drive one of these ultra-modern computerised cars and I also drive an historic race car (on the track - not on the road).  It is really basic, no power steering, no ABS, no stability control etc and driving it is a joy not something that we should all be scared of.

    • Kate says:

      05:18pm | 10/02/10

      Budz - that is true. But you do learn all of those things in any credible driver education program (unless you just learn from your parents and they teach you their bad habits). I had lessons from the RACV and they taught us all those things, and they also detail them in the drivers’ handbook you receive when you get your learners.

      I think a lot of people who tailgate and speed in the wet know very well it’s a bad idea. They just do it anyway. Because it’s so important to get to that next red light 5 seconds faster than the person next to you.
      However, maybe I’m giving people far too much credit and the case may be that some people really are that lacking in common sense. :/

      For what it’s worth - I’m a P plater (eight months till my full license!) so have done Victoria’s licensing test and had driving lessons quite recently.  My experiences on the road have made me lean towards making professional driving education cheaper and more widely available so that the majority of driving education comes from a professional and not the learner’s parents. This is because most of the truly crap driving I’ve witnessed has been courtesy of fully licensed drivers who are going to pass the same terrible habits on to their children some day.

    • Sam says:

      12:07pm | 10/02/10

      My personal view is that the government can assist in helping this by making obtaining a licence much more difficult by including compulsory driver training and defensive driving course attendance. I am in no way saying that the government’s job is to nanny kids of this country, but I think that the current licensing system makes driving seem a right, not a priviledge. I believe the government can increase the standard of our young drivers and at the same time, pocket some coin for themselves. It’s quite win-win.

      I was one of those kids who got their licences as soon as I was legally able to. It turned out to be a very important thing for the family. My parents were involved with a major crash as soon as I was on P plates and were unable to drive. I ended up driving myself and my little brother to school everyday for the rest of the year and being forced to be responsible for him and for running errands.

      Soon after they recovered they sent me on a driver training course, and I have to say it was the most awakening experience ever. I learned that day how my confident driving ability was not as great as I imagined, and that my car wasn’t excempt from being governed by the laws of physics.
      I now participate in legal track days where one can push the car to it’s limits in a relatively safe environment and responsibly drive my car whilst it is on public roads.

      I still encourage all my friends to partake in these added safety courses and bring it up when family friends with young children bring up the driving topic and recommend their kids attend.

    • james faren says:

      12:15pm | 10/02/10

      The only reason why we here of more accidents is because it is being reported more to make it sound like its happening more, there is no difference from accidents acuring now and 20 years ago. They are just using this tactic to implement more laws and remove our civil libertys and freedom slowly bit by bit.

    • James says:

      12:56pm | 10/02/10

      Our freedom to do what, exactly?  Drive while drunk?  Sorry, I seem to have missed your point.

    • marley says:

      01:10pm | 10/02/10

      Driving a car is a privilege, not a civil right.  I have no problem with tightening up the laws and increasing penalties on those who violate those laws.  And I certainly have no problem with impounding the cars, taking away the drivers’ licences and even giving jail time, to those who flagrantly abuse the privilege of driving. And neither should you.

    • Vanessa says:

      11:18am | 01/09/10

      James, you did miss the point. Not our freedom to do what we please on the roads, but freedom to allow public support/reform for changes to road policy, etc.

    • Yapping away says:

      12:22pm | 10/02/10

      It’s a simple explanation but with no solution. With youth comes immortality and indestructibility, or mentally this is what young people think. There’s no way that a mature adult would be able to erase this thinking in youth and it goes over time.

      I can’t find any solutions to this except maybe a partial carrot and stick solution. Punish where it hurts if these kids disobey. They would have been told or at least heard the dangers of dangerous driving. Punish where it hurts - not by revoking their licence but by crushing their cars or even a good whack. And often what is remembered the most and wisdom itself comes from mistakes that one makes (when they are young). As horrible and mean it sounds, a bit of death and maiming is a very poignant lesson for these kids; that we are of flesh and are destructible. I know it is easy for me to say as these are not my kids and I feel nothing for them, nor do I have to pick up the pieces. Not everyone can or will be old bones.

    • Logan says:

      12:25pm | 10/02/10

      Fantastic article, every man and his dog should be made to read this!

      I absolutely agree with every word and I am only 21 and ride a high-powered motorcycle a Honda CBR600RR 2009 (118bhp)

      I applaud David Penberthy for this article.

    • Leanne says:

      01:28pm | 10/02/10

      I only have a GPX250 Logan but I felt just how vulnerable the human body is when I started riding the bike. Its both fun and a great educator - maybe more people need to take up riding bikes to realise we are all just bags of crap compared to steel and concrete.

    • Shaun says:

      12:37pm | 10/02/10

      To me, the answer is simple! EDUCATION and incentives!  Clearly the stick does not work! Teach our young people what it is they are driving and how to drive it! Germany has a wonderful model… Quite frankly you can teach a monkey how to do a 3 point turn, reverse park, stop at a stop sign and obey road rules when you are being tested!  Give people incentives to drive well, cheaper insurance, no registration fees after say 10 years of safe driving etc! Australia has a very funny bent on judging and punishing people, lets all grow up!

    • Vanessa says:

      11:25am | 01/09/10

      I agree very much with you here Shaun! If people, like many of the above, are going to treat or label young people as immature, irresponsible, and well, not fully-grown adults, why should we expect them to be responsible to adult activities? No registration fees after a year of clean records is a GREAT INCENTIVE for young drivers!

    • cats says:

      12:43pm | 10/02/10

      I think labelling these types of people as P Platers only encourages them to be part of the stereotypical group. I studied early childhood and discovered that if you label children and call them this label, they are more inclined to BE that label and everything it represents. I strongly believe this works for stupid and immature adults too. See the amount of people boasting about their racism and saying “i dont care if you call me racist” on other opinion pieces here. Or watch everyone argueing about left and right as if centre doesn’t exist.

      I am a P Plater myself and have never done a burnout or been a hoon or whatever. I don’t have to wear the plates as I got my license before the new rules (QLD). I get my opens in 2 months. I think that when some people wear the p plates on their cars they feel the need to show everyone what a tough and fearless young p plater they are - which includes speeding, cutting people off and disregarding the road rules. Gold Coast is notorious for this. I really hate the Gold Coast.

      Our legal system is to blame. Taking away licenses does not work, as they will do it anyway! Financial penalties will work the best i think, as it hits where it’s hardest. But they can’t be measly little fines. They need to be huge. Jail time also needs to be considered for repeat offenders. People are just getting away with too much by using the excuse of a troubled childhood and drug addiction. That cannot be used as an excuse if we are to stop people behaving like this.

      Not all parents of reckless children wanted them to turn out like this. It is impossible for a parent of a teenager to know where they are and what they are doing every second of the day. So blaming all parents is not the solution.

    • Eno says:

      12:51pm | 10/02/10

      I somehow survived my first car - I used to like to go fast and nothing bad can happen to you can it? Not when you’re young. Luckily I was living in the country and would play on quiet roads often dirt so got to be able to drive ok. I learned to “drive” properly when I had a motorcycle and suddenly you’re taking a lot more interest in the condition of the road - for leaves on teh roads under trees when it’s been raining in the last few days (yep - wet road) it’s amazing how quickly you learn to look for escape routes you can dive into when you don’t have tons of steel around you. I think all people should be given their P plates keep the cars low powered and no booze - but then get them to take and pass an ‘advanced driver course’ before they get an open license. I think that with the additional cars on the road nowadays advanved driver courses and track days should actually be subsidised by the government so kids learn more and get the speed bug off their chest.

    • james karigan says:

      12:58pm | 10/02/10

      Government has to understand, more rules = more people disobeying rules. Its common sense, reverse psychology has to be adopted in this scenario. Remember we are dealing with youth and not mature adults. (most are youth) so there thinking psychologically is different. We need more government money invested into the community such as programs and more education dealing with younger drivers, and not more investment in more war law and jails! Its not that the the government don’t know what they are doing, oh they do know what they are doing, and they do it very well and carefully planned out, limiting our civil liberty’s and freedoms in favor of a few laws which do nothing but create more criminals and make people do the opposite of what they are suppose to be doing. The government want to kill us and dumb us down for various reasons which i wont go into, one such reason is population control/reduction and limiting our consciousness, the media should also deserve a big clap for there bias articles and there suppression of information, through the mainstream media, is ABSOLUTELY FUNDAMENTAL for the government to get what they want and control us. The people in true power, who control the corporate mainstream media, only give us ONE version of events, one version of possibility, one version of reality. Then they keep repeating this version over and over again. The greatest form of mind control is repetition. The result is that people are conditioned to see the world in a certain way. Their scope on reality becomes extremely limited and they are unable to think outside the box. They still feel that something isn’t right, but they are only being given, constantly over and over again ONE version of reality via the mainstream media. You can thank the CEO’s and boss’s who own these corporate media, not to mention the corrupt politicians and the new world order for this and we can do nothing to stop them. Sometimes fact is stranger then fiction. Something must be done before its to late, take it for what its worth. Thank you for your time.

    • Jacob says:

      01:07pm | 10/02/10

      It’s the bogans. It’s the hoons of middle eastern appearance. It’s the outer suburbs. It’s the culture. It’s the lack of culture. It’s the soft laws. It’s the high powered cars. It’s the parents. It’s the Cronulla riots. It’s the roads. It’s Asians who drive oblivious in a daze. It’s the Anglos who are always in a rush. It’s the license fees. It’s because we’re not a republic. It’s because Taxi drivers can’t speak English. It’s because of macho blokey thing. It’s because of the metro snag thing. It’s not as bad in other countries. It’s much worse in other countries.

      All I know is that as an inner city dwelling white middle class vegetarian person without a car…it’s not my fault. For anything.

    • Brett says:

      01:12pm | 10/02/10

      The first half of the article was good. Then it just degraded into almost governmental diatribe. Doing log book hours with your parents is useless. Making some half decent roads would help, also a licencing system where they actually had to learn from well paid and regulated instructors might help. But then again the costs involved wold delay kids getting a licence. Good you say? But then wouldn’t the government have to provide a public transport system? Oh shame, so we still need cars? Go figure. Also the government would have to provide public transport that doesn’t cost a small fortune. Change the government’s views and we may start a revolution on young drivers.

    • Dr Gaye Barr says:

      01:15pm | 10/02/10

      Is there anywhere in the world that this is not happening? If so, the Australian states should consider studying and adopting similar models. If the road toll in Australia exceeds that of other countries, we need to consider why. Is it a cultural rather than a legal phenomenon – some sort of rebellion or bullet proof ‘it-wont-happen-to-me’ mentality inherent in young Australian people? If so, campaigns, policies and punishments should be designed appeal to that.

      It is important to remember that there are a lot of idiots on the road with open licenses as well – what is the ratio of incidents between P-Plate and Open? What is the same and what is different?

      I believe the root cause is the ‘it wont happen to me’ mindset, coupled with a false sense of security associated with the design and build of modern vehicles.

      Regardless of the reason, the answer in my opinion doesn’t lie in penalties and restrictions because people will recklessly defy them. 

      How do you reverse that mindset?

      My heart goes out to the relatives and friends of these shocking fatalities – Bless all of them.

    • Miles says:

      01:19pm | 10/02/10

      Considering maturity levels these days are much lower compared to age then what they used to be, is giving a 16yr old a potential lethal weapon a particularly good idea?  Driving should be considered a privilege, not a right ,as it is now.  It’s scary the amount of people I meet (of all ages) who I eblieve would struggle to tie their own shoelaces let alone responsibly control a vehicle.

    • Nick says:

      01:20pm | 10/02/10

      there will only be more knee jerk laws after every death and no decent driver training, if there is a big crash in SA what do the police do? have a blitz on “hoons”, what they really do it harass anybody driving a sports car, its fun being treated like a criminal because of the car i drive and not how i drive it, keep blaming “hoons” for every death and just ignore that most ppl on our roads have no idea what to do when something goes wrong

    • Nothingchanges says:

      01:34pm | 10/02/10

      We are wasting our time in trying to stop these kids from killing themselves. The problem lies with the society we now live in. None, I repeat none of these kids have any respect for themselves let alone for other people. They don’t give a rats about anything except their own little alcohol, drug filled bogan world. Their contempt for road rules epitomises their contempt for society in general. Expect more of these horrific accidents. Problem is, innocent motorists will die too!

    • Brian says:

      01:37pm | 10/02/10

      95% of people speeding past me on Hume or F1 has a green P plate on the back…....no surprise why this happens.

      Pretty simple solution - Year one, one offence, suspend for one year; Year two, two offences, suspend one year, start again…....for first five years.

    • JC says:

      01:45pm | 10/02/10

      The difference between you reaching age 26 and a dead young driver?

      LUCK

      You took risks when you were an adolescent. At any time the odds could have caught up with you. You made it to 26 taking occasional risks. You probably would call yourself an idiot now looking back when you were 17. You werent an idiot, you were young.

      You all did reckless things when you were young. Everyone getting stuck into young drivers are hypocrites. You were lucky, or better put, they who lost their lives were unlucky. Its not parenting, education, culture, wealth or stupidity that causes us to lose a small percentage of kids each year. Its brain development.

      You can ban driving for people under 25 and i guarantee we’ll continue to keep losing kids. Its tragic for the families, but thats life. We are already over regulated in this society. You cant scratch yourself without checking first for a sign to let you know its ok these days.

    • SS BROWN SHIRT says:

      01:49pm | 10/02/10

      Call me a NAZI but I think we should have a ‘National P-Plater Dob in line’. 1800-P-Platers-behaving-badly. Obviously the police are too busy catching real crims and clearing up road debris from drunken teenage fatalities to caution every inexperienced P-Plater but seriously… everyday I see P-platers doing stupid things, driving too fast, not indicating, driving with head phones on, running red lights, weaving in traffic across lanes, sideswiping etc etc.
      What’s happened to social responsibility - if I saw someone beating another person up I’d call the cops, why can’t I call and report a dangerous teen driver?

    • sarah c says:

      02:24pm | 10/02/10

      Oh i LIKE this idea- I dont think you are a NAZI!!

      perhaps we could add to this a 1800-dob-in-sh!t-drivers-in-general line too? now THAT would make our roads safer!

    • Pete says:

      02:49pm | 10/02/10

      Why only target ‘teen drivers’? You can ring 000 and report any dangerous driver but you must be prepared to provide evidence by way of a statement, for the police to instigate legal proceedings and for the courts to prosecute the alleged offender. Generally you will find a lot of drivers who are accused of offences, will deny all charges and many will tell lies in court, to avoid prosecution.If you dob someone in, you must be prepared to support your allegation. If you choose to video the offence, remember to do so safely, so you don’t become a danger on our roads, just like the one you’re reporting.

    • Anon says:

      03:28pm | 10/02/10

      Pete - I’ve recently purchased a new camera to do as you describe but in respect of people who (a) park illegally, (b) do u-turns across double lines or (c) park across intersections (i.e try to get through an intersection when there is no space on the other side and end up blocking other traffic).

      Unfortunately there isn’t much I can do about speeding drivers. If I could afford it I would seriously consider buying a speed camera and spending my spare time catching speeding drivers in my local community. Make the place safer for all of us.

      I’m just doing a little bit of planning as to how I can “prove” that the time on the camera display is right.

    • Joel says:

      01:53pm | 10/02/10

      I keep saying this, start driver education younger while kids have the time to learn!  Basic road rules and the physics behind driving should be taught from age 10.  A learner licence should be given after a test is taken at age 15, from there, to step up to the next level you must undertake driver training courses at one of the many, many, many facilities around australia that are severely underused.  Driver training and licencing must be compulsury, currently we have 18 year olds leaving school without a learner licence which means they will never really learn how to drive properly.  I could keep going on and on but EDUCATION IS WHAT DRIVERS NEED!!! not more punishments, not higher fines.  What’s the point when they don’t know why what they are doing is wrong?  I’m 25, Because i’m from NZ I’ve been driving for over 10 years already!  I am a much more mature driver than most 30 year olds on our roads, I got over silly driving really quick because after undertaking advanced training i learnt WHY driving like a moron is dangerous and I learned how forces affect your car when you push it.  understanding driving is MUCH more important than road rules and speed limits.

    • jim says:

      02:03pm | 10/02/10

      How about we have cars that start if and only if your DNA matches to that on the car computer?

      It would stop theives, thugs and teens

      ... too expensive you say?

    • sarah c says:

      02:12pm | 10/02/10

      I am 25.
      I waited until i was 21 to get my red Ps. I didn’t think i was mature enough to handle a car at any younger age.
      I think the only way to stop this happening is to raise the driving age to 20-21 before getting red Ps- that way you are over the “I’m so cool/i’m 17 and borrowed mums subaru” mentality.
      OR you could suspend the surviving drivers for 5 years?

    • Julie Coker-Godson says:

      02:31pm | 10/02/10

      Good idea Sarah C.  I, too, was “late” getting my licence - 34 years of age in fact.  I had tried on two occasions in my late teens and early 20s to get a licence and had a permit, but I used to panic doing uphill stop/starts something awful and gave it up altogether.  It wasn’t until I reached 34 years of age that I felt ready for another try.  With the help of my late parents, and a professional instructor I got my licence on the first attempt.  I believe it was meant to be this way as I was more settled myself to concentrate on the multi-tasking required to drive a vehicle competently.  I don’t believe we have these skills when we are in our early teens.

    • Leanne says:

      02:16pm | 10/02/10

      I’m responsible on the road but I took longer to learn the skills than one of my male friends who did all the defensive courses he could and was skill wise a much better driver than me. However, although he acquired the skills and got his licence quicker than me he was a complete dick head when he got behind the wheel unsupervised on his P’s. The government response to p plate deaths is to put the restrictions and training over the top rather than look at the main problem which is that it’s Psychological – not skills based. The arguement that it’s just young people being young is bollocks plenty of younger drivers are quite responsible but other have nothing but space between their ears.

    • Trude says:

      03:24pm | 10/02/10

      A few ideas come to mind which may be too sensible for government to consider. I’d like to see year long, weekly classes in high schools on road safety, responsibility, first -aid etc, the year before teens can apply for their learner’s permit, Australia -wide. I’d like to see Federal legislation banning anyone under 21and all P-platers (even those who lost their license for other reasons and are now on P-plates) from carrying any passengers aged 13-21, that way young single parents could still have their child/ren in the car, learners could still have their parents, but young drivers, and those who’ve lost their license for drink driving and are now on P-plates, couldn’t have their mates egging them on to doing stupid things.

    • LC says:

      06:38pm | 27/03/11

      ...Unless their mates are aged over 22.

    • Slow Giggity says:

      03:24pm | 10/02/10

      A P plater spins the wheels of their car on an empty road and a top speed of 10km/h is achieved. Excellent choice of video.

    • Terry says:

      03:55pm | 10/02/10

      It’s not hard, if you are on your P’s you shouldn’t be allowed to drive a powerful car. Maybe they could limit P platers to drive cars that have engines no bigger than 1.3ltrs, must be 5 door or sedan, no turbo or supercharger and no aftermarket alterations. It will be better for the environment if people drive smaller cars. I don’t think you will ever slow done P platers but you can limit what they drive as long as the police enforce it.
      Performance of cars today is so much higher than it was. Those of us who had to drive a bomb from the 70’s on our Ps will know you don’t go anywhere fast. Late 90’s and 2000s cars these days are quick in comparison (even standard non turbo etc etc) so the laws need to change with the technology of the cars.
      I would also love to see a devise implemented that didn’t allow you to use a mobile phone in a car and stricter regulations for GPS systems.

    • LC says:

      06:36pm | 27/03/11

      “It’s not hard, if you are on your P’s you shouldn’t be allowed to drive a powerful car. Maybe they could limit P platers to drive cars that have engines no bigger than 1.3ltrs, must be 5 door or sedan”

      Which makes every car on the RACV’s recommended P-plate list (judged by safety standards) illegal for them to drive.

    • Venise says: says:

      04:01pm | 10/02/10

      As long as being pissed is a badge of their masculinity, so long will these tragedies occur. When parents gave up being parents and just took the easy way out by allowing their kids unlimited access to cars. So long will these deaths occour.

      Sure kids think they are indestructible and drinking themselves legless, because it shows their masculinity. Yet parents hand over the keys of their kids’ destruction.

      We know the law lets the kid’s off with ridiculous ease. Why not put the really responsible people into jail, the parents, or imposing crippling fines on them?  And stop the tabloid media from publishing all those grizzly photos of grieving parents and relos telling their story as fodder to a credulous audience.

      Danny may have had a marvellous personality, he may have had many friends, be studying for a degree, helps little old ladies. None of this validates the fact that Danny was stupid, and he drank too much. And he killed several people.

      Why was he able to get away with these potentially deadly acts. Could it be the culture that beatifies male children is also to blame?

    • Betsey Bandicoot says:

      04:10pm | 10/02/10

      Quiet right. Risk taking P platers who kill themselves and others are tragic but stoppable All they would have got at school when they are serial pests was counselling or support - “its not fair’ or “he/she was only just ...” - from their peers.

      Parents will go into bat for them against all and sundry whether it be police, teachers, transit police or debt collectors trying to recoup mobile phone accounts or just plain violence. Talk about a hangover from the convict days!

      When the sad inevitable happens we are supposed to believe that a terrible beauty has been born. No - an avoidable waste of a human being, has happened.

      Tell the truth to their parents and grieving peers and then it will not have been completely in vain.

    • Jay says:

      04:27pm | 10/02/10

      “It takes a special kind of genius to kill yourself in a car these days.”

      In addition to an obvious cold lack of sympathy for road victims families, there was a very cruel attempt to inject humour into this heartbreaking topic.

      You hold all probationary drivers at arms length, and broadly condemn “these kids” as a whole, like we have a generation of stupid people who deserve to die in the car accidents they cause.

      P-plates mean the driver is on probation, i.e. on a trial period during which their abilities behind the wheel are tested. We have an absolute minority of young probationary drivers who don’t have the skills to pass this 3yr period, and should be trained further. Simple as that.

      The vast majority of ‘P-plate’ drivers conduct themselves responsibly on the roads, and view their new licenses as a privilege, not a ridiculous rite of passage as claimed.

      You’re leading a witch-hunt against all these “kids”, when a level-headed change towards a small group of drivers is all thats really needed.

      Traffic and driver education in our schools would go a long way in reducing our road toll. Deliberately argumentative news blogs, seeking lots of ‘web hits’ by being controversial, don’t go far in helping at all.

    • Bobby says:

      04:55pm | 10/02/10

      Parents have more power than anyone to keep their kids safe, or safer. absolutely right. when i was in my teen i used to get jealous of all my under age mates driving as young as 14-15 i used to get this urge of learning to drive my self wanted to get a car and license but my dad back then was soo against it may be because he knew what most of the teen kids get up too these days he always had this feeling of me being young immature and stupid like almost all teens would probably crash the car or end up killing my self and others or end being disable for the rest of my life in the worst case.
      so anywayz i waited till i was 22
      now iam 28 gotta full license mature enough to know and soo thankful of my dad and seem to appreciate all the wise and right decision(s) he made hes the reason for kinda person iam today.
      so its right parent sure do have power for the safety of there kids. dnt just give birth and leave em stranded

    • John Botica says:

      05:00pm | 10/02/10

      These young troublesome p platers, or hoons as they’re so often called, don’t listen to talk back radio, don’t read the newspapers, they just want to get out there and burn rubber and piss everyone off! They don’t know who Alan Jones or those other over paid buffoons at 2gb are! So what’s all this crap about “When will they ever learn! They can’t learn! They’re not supposed to bloody learn! They’ve got testosterone coming out their eyeballs! They’re lunatic teenagers for God’s Sake! Some are gonna make it to adulthood and some simply won’t! It’s as simple as that! You’ve just got to look out for them when your out on the roads and hope like Christ they don’t take you or someone you love and care for out of this world.

    • Tony the Truckie says:

      05:03pm | 10/02/10

      I guess they think they’re invincible!

    • Adelaide says:

      05:32pm | 10/02/10

      What about us P-Platers who do the right thing and are abused on the roads by fully licensed drivers?

      I was driving today, over-taking a semi-trailer that was doing under the speed limit by 15kms, as I accelerated to 90kms (the legal limit on that particular road), I was tail-gated by a fully licensed driver. I pulled into the ‘slow lane’, still doing the speed limit, he sped up and flipped me off. What about those drivers?

      I wish the media would stop picking on P-Platers when it is just a few rotten apples that spoil the bunch.

    • Michael says:

      09:06pm | 10/02/10

      I completey agree… I am a P-Plater too… 27years old and on my green P’s and went through a speed camera zone a few months back at the speed limit of 90kmh and had a truck up my tail flashing lights at me… I am not going to speed up for anyone… even a truck driver off his tree with a deadline not worrying about a speeding ticket!

    • Col says:

      05:37pm | 10/02/10

      Symptons of Australian Society in General with this Generation.
      Make excuses for them and their parents being the main offenders - instead of telling them you are wrong and to get their acts together the parents seek to blame someone else.
      I say look in the mirior and you will most likely see your offspring for whom you are making excuses for their behaviour
      Parents and the Lawmakers (The Political Masters) need to face reality , take tough decisions and make tough laws to reign in the unacceptable behaviour of the young people of today .
      They have led a charmed life getting whatever they want and being asked for nothing in return .
      It is time to put a stop to this -in this Country everyone has rights whilst you obey the law- the moment you break the law you forfeit all rights - no pampering and no more making excuses.

    • GS says:

      05:39pm | 10/02/10

      First of all, I would like to ask… Shouldn’t you all be working towards helping our economy go round instead of making tiny stupid comments that aren’t going to be actioned?
      I myself am a P plate driver and I am irritated how everyone is stereotyping us, like you all don’t do stupid mistakes on the road?

      The countless times i am on the road and I have a ‘mature’ adult behind me, driving up my ass because I’m sticking to the road limit… or the pensioners who drive 30 in a 60 zone? or the special race of people who cause up to 80% of traffic problems?

      You all need to look around the world we live in, Sydney is such a busy place - Everyone is in a rush to go nowhere?!We teenagers all have a mind of our own; we choose how to use it… so blame it on the individual’s situation.

    • John in Alice says:

      06:08pm | 10/02/10

      There are a whole lot of parents out there who are extremely proud of their “wild child”.  Excuses like “letting off steam” or “just being a kid” do NOT cut it.  We need to take these parents to task, even when a death occurs, drag them into court and charge and fine them for failure to impart respect for others and the laws.  Parents will only start accepting responsibility when we prove we are serious about enforcing our laws.
      GS is correct in stating there are hoons at all ages, but realistically the majority are young people trying to impress their friends.  WHF has this to do with helping our economy go round is beyond me.

    • LC says:

      06:15pm | 27/03/11

      How parents raise their children and how the kid behaves when he/she is not with his/her parents are two totally different things. It’s just as likely for a child raised in an authoritarian household grows up to be a hoon or a crim as it is for a child in an apathetic household to grow up to be a respectable young man/woman.

    • o_O says:

      06:20pm | 10/02/10

      Make a yr 12 graduation, or equivallent, mandatory to get your licence if you are under the age of 25. If you didn’t graduate, or have full time employment when you left school for atleast 2 years, or finish yr 10/11 and do another type of study for atleast 2 years, then you’ll have to wait until your 25 and apply for it then. Make most of the kids want to stay in school or start employment. 2 birds one stone. And teach defensive driving in schools. I did defensive driving when i got my ‘L’ plates, instructed by my father (truck driver for 20yrs, speedway Production racer for nearly 30yrs, trained mechanic, rev-head, and former hooligan). I’ve been driving for 6 years unsupervised, and i have never had an accident, never drove whilst drunk and never put anyone else’s life in danger. I have had to use the skills my father so thoughtfully encouraged me to learn so many times - saving the lives of both me and the occupants of the other car.

      Remember to drive to the conditions of the road.

    • Brian says:

      06:54pm | 10/02/10

      Coming from WA, the system here is - multiple choice test to get your L plates, followed by a computer test to get a second stage L plate, followed by a minimum of 25 hours driving experience and a driving test to get your P’s, which you have for two years. (Note I did this about 8 years ago, so it may have changed a little. I think there are minimum waiting periods now as well). That’s all well and good as a start, but I recommend a couple of additions:

      1) Make a defensive driving course compulsory to get your P’s (I did one. Not sure if it helped or not, but I’ve yet to crash due to hooning…)

      2) Make it a requirement to have a senior first aid certificate to get off your P’s. Maybe even to renew your licence. Think about it, who is the first person to any accident scene? Almost every time it’s a driver (whether you’re talking a car crash, face down in a pool, assault). Quick first aid saves lives. People will complain about the cost, but a first aid certificate can cost as little as $100, and if you can’t afford that every three years, how on earth do you run a car? Even better, make it free, via a government subsidy.

      3) Speed limiters for any driver caught going more than 20km over the limit once. Also for any non-P-plater caught doing more than 20km over the limit twice in a two year period, with the requirement they may not drive any vehicle without one, or lose their licence. The limiters stay in place for 3 years (ditto for drink drivers. But harsher).

    • S.L says:

      07:06pm | 10/02/10

      Nothing will stop a Moron! PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!..................
      P platers aren’t slowing down and young guys out to impress are still out to impress.
      No legislation will stop stupidity.
      Car manufacturers can’t be blamed for the performance of their vehicles or even councils for sub standard roads.
      Anyone with a sense of self preservation drives to the prevailing conditions. The only law that has changed driving habits in the last 30 years is Random Breath Testing but in a majority of the latest crashes the driver was sober.
      Maybe preserving our teenage drivers starts at home by example? I just don’t know!
      @GS I assume when a pensioner is “up your ass” (if you are indeed Australian then the correct word is arse) you are too busy talking on your mobile phone to notice you’ve slowed down?

    • bloke says:

      07:41pm | 10/02/10

      i have always lived in the inner city. i got my licence at 27, but only drove for 1 year then gave it up. i was interested, at the age of 42, in taking it up again. unfortunately, i was alway terrified off being written off by the hand some moron. lately, with all the car accidents caused by morons.  i’ll never, in this life, take it up again

    • Jasper says:

      07:51pm | 10/02/10

      I’ve had my drivers licence for 20 years and been involved in one actual accident and more than a dozen near misses.

      I can say quite confidently that in all of those situations, the driver at fault was NOT a P plater. The smash on the freeway that I was involved in was caused by a mid-30s tradie who thought that indicating was optional - he managed to clean up 3 cars in one go.

      Many of the others who have almost cleaned me up have been drivers who fail to give way appropriately and that is not a fault of most of the P platers I see, if anything they are more likely to give way than some self-involved 4WD driver.

      I work next to a shopping centre and almost all the accidents in the car park are cause by much older drivers or, you guessed it, 4WDs who can’t be bothered to give way. The most recent was a classic, 4 cars cleaned up in a car park by a senior citizen who hit the wrong pedal, but no one reported about that in the media because, fortunately, no one was killed.

      What people are failing to realise is that while many drivers are pretty bad, those that are older have had more practice getting out of the sticky situations they put themselves in by their bad driving. Older drivers also have more ingrained bad habits that are harder to change.

      Many of them also passed a pretty shoddy tests, two of my friends got their licence (20 years ago I might add) by driving their inspector to the bottle shop and back. How many people did that guy pass in his career that weren’t ready for a license? All of those drivers have been on the road for 15 years or more.

      Enough of the Y bashing, its boring and doesn’t address the problems. It does, however, ensure that another generation can join in the fun of “kids today, they’re not like when I was a growing up…” and there are recorded accounts of that opinion from ancient Greece.

    • Ex-hoon who is an awesome driver and lived says:

      08:41pm | 10/02/10

      People die on the road and they’re always going to die on the road, the only thing you can do to stop it is to stop people from driving.

      Stop with this crap about putting harsh restrictions on p-platers, just accept the fact that some of them are going to die and stop trying to make it the governments responsibility. Things were tough enough when I was a p-plater 5 years ago and now it’s just getting stupid. I’m so sick of reading your ignorant comments.

    • Helen says:

      08:44am | 26/02/10

      Well that’s a good demonstration of the mentality.
      Or lack of.

    • Vanessa says:

      11:43am | 01/09/10

      Love it. Nice mentality.

    • Sarah Jane says:

      08:45pm | 10/02/10

      I think the part of how parents can help is by offering to drive kids to and from parties or pick them up from a night out. Public transport at night is absolute crap, espescially if you are going to a house.

    • Pink. says:

      08:57pm | 10/02/10

      Interesting article…. Sad but true I’m afraid.  WHY are they driving “pimped” cars after dark with multiple passengers? Obviously driver education is an excellent step but teenagers will always feel invincible so parents need to be the ones taking control of this situation. Government can only give guidelines, laws etc. Parents must be the ones to bear the ultimate responsibility for their own children!!! They are YOUR kids - do something about it!!!

    • John in Alice says:

      09:02pm | 10/02/10

      We had driver training in school and it made a huge difference from mom and pop training.  Besides a classroom environment along with actually driving, the whole program benefitted the school.  Kids WANTED to drive, and they didn’t screw around in other classes so much because they wanted to remain in school for the driver training.  Above all there was continual reminding about defensive driving, to anticipate stupid moves from other drivers, as well as courteous driving habits.

    • The Drover says:

      09:19pm | 10/02/10

      I am only posting this now, and it is probably to late for most Punch readers to read, but here is my take on the subject.. Many years ago, my father (a veteran infantryman from WW2 ) ,told me that when you get behind the wheel of a car, it is like picking up a loaded gun. You can kill yourself and you can kill other people, I have never forgotten what he told me and I have tried to instill it in my own children, but when I see teenagers driving around in high powered, expensive vehicles that their parents have paid for, you are going to see a lot more dead kids.

    • Terry says:

      09:39pm | 10/02/10

      There are plenty of examples of the ‘When I was young’ stories. So I thought I’d add mine. I lost my licence at 18 for DUI, that didn’t stop me from buying a V8 and driving without a licence at high speed, everywhere. I survived and was fortunate enough to not have caused any accidents. I never drunk and drove again. Young people lack judgement, and are generally doing things to impress their peers/girl/boys. They do stupid shit. We all did. Unfortunately through the same lack of skills we all did at that age and the high power of cars (even my modern four cylinder is quicker than most six cylinder cars I’ve owned). This shit will happen. In addition comparing the road toll year to year is false economy. We’ve had a thirty percent jump in population in the past 20 years, has there been a commensurate 30 percent jump in the road toll?
      I suggest we stop knee jerking to every vehicle accident out there and look at what we can control and influence such as our own driving and that of our kids.

    • Amy says:

      11:36pm | 10/02/10

      The major problem with this argument is that it is based on P-Plater stereotypes.  These kids are a minority in the P-Plate population.  This discussion is exposing and perpetuating these P-Plater stereotypes, and the problem is, in impacts how other drivers behave.  I’m young enough to remember the huge difference removing the P-Plates from my car did to the behaviour of OTHER drivers on the road.  Suddenly, I wasn’t being cut off, swerved at or leered at by the guy in the lane over when I stopped at traffic lights.

      Like most other young drivers, I adhere to the road rules, I respect other drivers and I have a perfect driving record - yet when I had a dirty red or green P on my car, it read like a scarlet letter to the other drivers on the road.  I was branded incompetent and reckless.  And all these new cases are doing is perpetuating the myth that all young drivers are the same.  Why are we ignoring the fact that in every one of these recent cases these kids were blatantly breaking the law: whether it be having too many people in the car (for P-Plate restrictions OR the incident with 6 kids in the car), intoxication, driving a car on the banned list or driving entirely unlicensed.  They’re breaking the rules, and yet we’re discussing creating more rules?  WHY?  All you’re doing is punishing the young drivers who are already adhering to those rules, and are already suffering from the actions of others: the minority of P-Plate lunatics and a great deal of older drivers who should know better.

    • Anthony says:

      01:38am | 11/02/10

      The next news story you see, have a closer look at the demographic of people in the tragedy… low SES or bogan? I thought so. It’s the culture of the low SES which fosters these idiot drivers. The culture shift needs to change; away from the glorification of street racing, circle-working, hooning stupidity.

    • TryTheTruth says:

      04:47am | 11/02/10

      The problem is complicated. 

      First off we have the macho ‘tough guy’ garbage that is at the heart of so very much dangerous adolescent behavior.  Males are told from early on that they must be risk takers to be respected, never show emotion, never be gentle, be tough.  So they listen to us.  They listen to the idea that tough guys can drink a lot, can fight well, and that you are only worthwhile if you are tough.  They listen and learn.  They also listen to the undercurrent of racism and anti-immigrant sentiment (in the land of OZ where we lock people up for the crime of running for their lives) and then we get the riots at the beaches a few years ago, and we get binge drinking, and we get a lot of kids who get themselves (and other people) dead from driving dangerously.

      Then we have the way people get their licenses in the first place.  This is seriously suspect, and yet another example of how business lobbies influence the government into regulations that will do nothing other than funnel money to those businesses.  This is why we have the system we have for drivers licences.

      There are two ways to get one.  Take the big test or go to a driving school and do the log book.  People tend to chose the log book because the log book is easier (far too easy) and the test is nearly impossible..  They make you do things in the test like ‘perfect’ angled parking where you must be parked anywhere they say to, in a single pass (no adjusting later), within a few millimeters of their ‘proper distance’  from the lines. The same sort of thing is done in every maneuver.  In the real world nobody does this, and frankly many parking locations make it impossible.  We do not drive around with rulers to check our parking.

      Back in reality, the emphasis in driving is on safety first…on a whole lot of practicing.  The important thing is not hitting people; not on how many millimeters you were away from the curb when you parked…and it you had to adjust your position in your space AT ALL to be polite to other drivers (incidentally, doing this will fail you for the entire drivers test, so do not be a polite driver).

      Most adults have no idea how hard the test used today is, and no idea how easy the log book is by comparison (with many instructors).  As a result we get a lot of log book licence kids, with parents who think that they are safe drivers because they paid for the school…kids who are not good enough as drivers.

      We need a new method that ensures good driving practices and does not black mail people into a driving school, using the fear of failing the drivers test as pressure for people to spend money at these schools.

      They are obviously not doing a good job.  A lot of pople are still dying.

      By the way we have a very low road toll in Oz.  It is far higher in other countries.  We just refuse to accept the idea that people need to die so that we can all have cars.  I remember back in the USA when the Dukes of Hazard was popular on TV. Pumped up muscle cars got very popular.  A lot of kids died in them.  In fact far more people die in the USA from car crashes (per capita)  than here in OZ.  I expect more people die in car crashes in one day in any ONE state in the USA, that die here in an entire year in the entire country.

      Yes it is horrible when it happens.  But we need to get some focus here and look at why this happens, and how large the problem really is.

    • Judi says:

      06:20am | 11/02/10

      “For every year you can convince your child to delay getting their licence, the greater the chances are that they’ll avoid any rattiness on the roads.”  This isn’t always a good thing.  My daughter is now 26, has needed a licence for a few years, has been taught to drive a car but is too scared of other people on the roads to get her licence.  I’m wishing she had gotten her licence @ 16 while she was still 10’ tall & bulletproof because I get the midnight calls to take her husband to the hospital (he can’t drive either) or to take them to places where public transport just doesn’t run.  This means that “Mum’s Taxi Service” is still needing to run some 10yrs after it should have been able to finish.

      My husband is American & he has spoken highly of Driver’s Education in the schools over there & has said it works well (he was a truck driver over there & saw a lot of miles & other drivers on the roads).  Yes, the US has a higher rate of road deaths, but they have over 10 x the number of people we do, & the percentage of the population killed in car accidents is generally a lot less than our percentage rate.  Add that to the comment earlier from “John in Alice” who said that students caused less problems in his school because they wanted to do Driver’s Ed, & my husband telling me that some insurance companies gave discounts to people who had completed & passed this subject, maybe this is something we should be looking at over here.

    • Elizabeth says:

      10:58am | 11/02/10

      @ Judi, I’m shocked that you continue to enable your daughter and her fears by providing transport for her.  As a parent you should be encouraging her to conquer the fears or do you not wish to cut the apron strings? 

      My sister-in-law had the same fears but she faced it and worked hard with our support and sometimes even tough love; she is now completely independent and her life has opened up for her.

    • Judi says:

      05:28pm | 11/02/10

      Elizabeth, I continue to drive her around, because I know that she not only doesn’t have the confidence to drive in traffic, but she doesn’t have the money to buy a car. I know she can drive because when she could afford the lessons, it was my car she was practicing in.  And until such time as she can afford lessons again, & then afford a car, there’s not much else she can do.  She lives in an area this isn’t very good for public transport, or for walking around in after dark, & if you think that I’m keeping the apron strings attached & enabling her by assisting her in that way, then I’m glad you’re not related to me.

      She is independent in every other way, even having lived in another state for 4yrs, but she’s currently in the same city as me, has had her husband very ill, & (as previously mentioned) doesn’t have the money to do anything more about driving at the moment, so I help her.  If she had have gone for her licence at 16 when she was first able to, she had no bills at the time, & would have been able to afford the lessons, licence & car. Currently there are too many things in the way for her to do that, no matter how much I wish the situation was otherwise. 

      As for the fear of driving, that was totally unexpected, & I think she was as shocked as I was to find that she “froze up” when faced with traffic.  She’s starting to see her way out of the bills again, & has actually started talking about lessons again, so I’m taking that as a sign that she’s ready to try to conquer her fears again. 

      However, what would you prefer to see on the roads - someone who is confident in their abilities through making their own choices, or someone who isn’t & has been given tough love & told to “face it”?

    • Cathy says:

      06:45am | 11/02/10

      As a parent of an 18 year old daughter (who got her license 6 months ago) and a 16 year old son (still to get his L) I would like to know how many P-platers have their cars bought FOR them, by their parents.  I think this is a big factor and big mistake.  When we bought our first cars - guys included - we had to pay for our first car.  That meant it was usually an older, 4 cylinder car.  It usually looked pretty ordinary, but it got us around.  The guys tried to make them look good, but we all knew that our first car was going to look like that.  These days you see 17 year olds in brand new, ‘look at me” cars, that their parents have bought for them.  I say, parents, don’t do it.  Kids need to learn the value of things - let them save for a car; let them catch public transport.  This generation of kids have been spoiled materially - they desperately need parents who will say “no”.

    • Monique says:

      06:54am | 11/02/10

      Quote from article: “And while witnesses have said that speed was not a factor in the weekend’s crash in Colyton, NSW, which claimed the lives of three youngsters, the driver had four passengers jammed into his car in violation of the new restrictions on passenger numbers for P-platers in NSW. It was 3am”.......


      It was a P2 License holder. Only P1 drivers have passenger restrictions.

    • Elizabeth says:

      07:21am | 11/02/10

      As a teenager (many years ago I admit) a friend was killed in a car accident.  They weren’t skylarking; their vehicle was sideswipped by a logging truck on the Pacific Highway.  The death of this friend had such a profound affect on all of us, making us face our own mortality, that none of our group ever got behind the wheel and behaved in such a fashion that would endanger our lives or those of our passengers.  Basically, our friends death stayed with us.  What I don’t undersand is that after all of the media exposure of so many hideous accidents; why aren’t these young people learning the lessons that they are seeing first hand in such graphic detail.

    • john@bermi says:

      07:23am | 11/02/10

      There is a easy way of dealing with this problem. Include an IQ test in the drivers license test. Most of these morons would never get a licence, they couldn’t spell IQ let alone know what it is. The traffic congestion problems would be eased, public transport would be more utilised as they go off to their menial jobs. But most importantly innocent lives would not be put at risk.

    • Melanie says:

      07:49am | 11/02/10

      “type the words “Victoria P-Plate Rules SUCK” into Google.

      It will lead you to a Facebook site which at the latest count has 5903 fans, and is devoted to the mindless denunciation of the restrictions on passenger numbers proposed by the Victorian Government.”


      I was with you up until here.

      I’m against the new passenger restriction not because I don’t care about safety, but because I *do*.
      It’s relatively easy to decide that one in five of your friends is this evening’s designated driver - and much harder to convince one in *two*. Restricting P platers from having more than one passenger is a good way to end up with a lot of drunk teenagers on the road.

    • fred says:

      09:02am | 11/02/10

      We are not taught car control in this country.

      A car is a very complicated arrangement of individual machines.
      For a car to go around a corner, or over a bump there are so many individual parts doing their bit to let that happen.
      All of these parts are based on the best compromise for the expected driving style for that car.

      It’s extremely important that we all know what happens at least to the major parts like the wheels and springs when we turn a vehicle.
      I’m not saying we need a mechanical degree, but some sort of understanding about weight shifting, and controlled correction.

      An incident can happen at any time. I was being a bit of a tard one morning, at 4 or 5am driving to a job, cruising around a high speed bend a bit over the limit, when suddenly, the 4psi I hadn’t noticed in the drivers side rear tyre made itself known.
      The back of the car started sliding. Ironically, it was BECAUSE I had been a hoon when I was younger that this incident didnt turn into a crash. Without thinking, my reaction was the sum total of about 10cm of steering correction.
      Mild opposite lock, and then back to normal. My heart rate didnt even increase. It was just something I’d taught myself long ago by being a retard.

      Unfortunately, this exact situation could happen to anyone. We’re all lazy, we’re in a hurry and tired at that time of the morning.

      The difference is in the training. Always.

      While I was self taught, and survived against the odds, many others are not taught at all.
      A lot of people would have panicked and panic is a sign that your brain has no training for this situation. Zero. They usually crash.

      Have you ever seen the news reports after a plane or helicopter crashes and there are survivors? The Hudson plane? The Blackhawks a long time ago in QLD?

      The media always ask this question to the pilot: Were you scared?
      They invariably answer something like: The training kicked in, and I just did what had to be done.

      Think about that for a moment.
      Lets call panic a default action for moments of fear.
      It can be programmed something like this:

      IF situation is dangerous AND no appropriate course of action found THEN panic.

      Some people freeze like deers. Some wildly fight for their life.
      Both are less than ideal options. Both have a reasonable chance of failing.

      How about we fill in these blank spots for our youth with proper car control training like we do for pilots?

      If pilots only knew how to takeoff, land, and taxi in ideal circumstances, we wouldn’t trust them.

      The anti-drug driving ad’s lately are fantastic. They should be applied to training.

      “You wouldn’t trust a pilot who didn’t know how to steer in the rain, so why trust yourself?”

      TRAINING.

      http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/20/2796457.htm
      I was about 20 minutes behind that accident on a bike. I studied the tyre marks, the gravel spray and the position of the vehicles.
      If just ONE of those drivers was trained in proper car control, it wouldn’t have been fatal. The 4wd that was sideswiped, was sideswiped by a car of lesser mass.
      I’ve had the same happen to me at similar speeds by a car much heavier.  I was in an 80’s Corolla hatch. The ass was kicked out, I corrected, we both pulled over and had a chat. He didn’t see me there.

      A little bit of training is all it takes most of the time.
      Training gives you confidence and a course of action.
      Confidence and action overrule fear.
      As someone once said; The only thing to fear is fear itself.

    • GT says:

      09:06am | 11/02/10

      The behaviour of drivers on our roads is very poor. So many people drive with no consideration for anyone else let along the road rules.  This mindset extends to our younger drivers where it is amplified by the many factors that encourage risk-taking in teenagers.  My opinion is that an effective way to improve the situation on our roads is to increase the police presence.  We don’t need new road rules or additional road rules specificially for certain classes of drivers (i.e. P-platers) we simply need to enforce the road rules that are there.  The majority of poor driving on the roads that results in accidents, injury and death is due to people ignoring the road rules.  They ignore them because there is virtually no chance of them being caught and booked.  If all drivers -  P-platers included -  thought that there may just be a police car around the next corner they would modify the way they drive.  The reality is that practically every driver flouts the rules of the road every single day and never evens sees a police car.  Visible policing with direct, immediate consequences for offenders would be a much greater deterrent than the current situation which is basically anarchy.

    • PhilB says:

      09:46am | 11/02/10

      While we’re commenting on touchy subjects, would it not be true that the majority of cases would relate to a certain socio-economic group? There seems to be a bit of generalisation here, that the majority of current day new drivers are just itching to be let free and act like ratbags. They’re not. If it was the case then there would now be hardly any young people left. There is no actual physical barrier stopping you from planting your foot down or breaking the rules, only common sense, consideration, and just plain feeling like you don’t want to do it. Perhaps the main difference between now and when the olds started driving is that performance cars are becoming more widely obtainable, more affordable and a hot marketable item.

    • Nick says:

      02:43pm | 11/02/10

      to bad there are very few deaths in perforcemance cars

    • lindyv says:

      12:20pm | 11/02/10

      I couldn’t agree more with your article, and your comments on ABC Radio this morning.  People need to take responsibility for their actions, and the consequences.  I agree it’s a hugely sensitive issue encapsulated in grief, but these issues still need to be raised and discussed.  Who knows what the definitive answer is, but let’s be bold enough to discuss.

    • Benjamin says:

      02:19pm | 11/02/10

      This has nothing to do with safety and responsibility its all about MONEY!
      Why doesn’t the greedy RTA lift the age level to it least 18 or 20 years of age.
      I mean to start driving a car at the age of 16 is far to young, for a start you have no money or real life experience at that age. The RTA won’t lift the age because there making to much money out of making it harder for normal people to get there license! If the RTA lifted the age you would see a lot less younger drivers dying on the roads.

    • Seano says:

      10:01am | 26/02/10

      The solution is education, better roads and more police enforment.

      Hopefully the next NSW government will do something along these lines. But I’m not holding my breath as I fear that they will be as big a bunch of no hopers as the current lot.

    • The Boss Hog says:

      11:22am | 26/02/10

      Australian drivers are some of the worst amongst developed countries, why, becasue our driving education system is a farce. When did the ability to parallel park and do a 3 point turn equate to the realisation that you are a well prepared and confident driver.

      The goal of attaining your license and becoming a road user is a privelage, not a bloody right.  The road authorities may as well hand out driving licenses in cereal boxes as it seems any kid can get a license these days.

      And this lack of proper road education and training at a young age is reflected in the disgraceful driving behaviours of a wide range of drivers on our roads.

      But to stay on topic, i have recently paid more attention to the behaviours of drivers in my neighbourhood due to an increase in hooning and speeding, and can unfortunately say the majority of p-platers are prats. Be it speeding, drifting around roundabouts, loud exhausts….9 out of 10 times it is a P-plater. There is no hype surrounding P-platers. The majority are self indulged, careless little twats. But I guess that is what our society has bred them to be.

      In the past month i have almost had my car t-boned by a speeding p-plater whilst turning into my driveway, i have been tailgated by many in my neighbourhood’s 50km zone and just the other morning was tailgated and then overtaken and cut off by one maniac, without the use of any turning signals or sense of accountability for myself or other drivers mind you, i have had the wonderful experience of having profanities yelled at me by a bunch of back seat bogans whilst getting my mail, and watching the intracacies of a convoy of 7 crap heaps drift around a set of roundabouts on my street. And I live in a supposedly upper middle class neighbourhood.

      I believe the driving behaviours of P-platers are a simple reflection of the mind sets and behaviours of teenagers in our current society, no respect, no rules, no accountability, no discipline, and obviously no brains!

    • Doug Stidolph says:

      11:02am | 25/05/10

      Teach your kids to drive better. Honest to god, coming from the UK, I cannot believe the absolute ineptitude of EVERYONE in this country to drive with any sense of self-awareness or decorum. Last night coming home in Brisbane I saw two drivers blow clean-through red lights, another was harassing me for not doing the same and impeding her progress.

      Driving tests here must be little more than a formality for these individuals to have been granted driving licenses - and once they do pass they are granted access to cars which are vastly overpowered (P-plate engine restrictions or not).  Seriously, giving a 17 year-old a V6 is plain stupid, they do NOT need it. We all have to deal with 1.4 or 1.6 litre cars until we’re 21 - none of the kids complain, a small car is just as much fun to drive, and with less power and grip than a V6 with sports alloys, feels on the limit at much slower speeds.

      You will not stop kids having fun with their cars. That is an inevitable truth. If you were to succeed they would immediately move onto another form of danger/exhilaration - it is a part of human nature. I’m sure you all remember when you were young and saw the excitement and opportunity the world presented.

      And for christsakes, stop pretending that the P-platers are the villains here - the driver’s risk assessment and ability are not marked by their years of driving. It is down to the individual behind the steering wheel - Someone who has been driving for 20 years is just as susceptible to showing off to his/her mates as the 17 year old…except the ‘more experienced’ driver can drink more, picked up more bad-habits, and have a vastly more overpowered machine.

    • Marcus says:

      10:41pm | 26/01/11

      I’m 17 and a p-plate driver. But I don’t speed, don’t drink, don’t break any regulations, drive sensibly, have taken several defensive driving courses and still get harassed by the general public because of the bad publicity that p-platers get.

      I agree a great deal of these drivers are complete morons and they should have their licenses revoked and their cars sold by the transport dept. I don’t understand how these people can still pass the tests.

      I found it amazing that as I was undertaking my test the instructor seemed to be angry at the fact that I wasn’t accelerating quickly enough and racing through orange lights. I almost think they encourage the bad behaviour sometimes.

      Yet I have been nearly hit by so many middle age drivers it is not funny. One week after passing my test I was nearly run off the road by a middle age woman on her phone, speeding with 4 little kids in the back.

      It’s not just the teenagers that are bad drivers.

 

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