Believe it or not, Senate Inquiries can generate all sorts of humorous exchanges.

The Church of Scientology's Superpower Building in Florida: the days of its tax-free status are numbered.

A hearing earlier this week into the Tax Laws Amendment (Public Benefit Test) Bill generated so much laughter at one point, you could be forgiven for thinking you were watching ‘Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure’ instead.

It went something like this. When discussing the impact of the introduction of a Charities Commission in New Zealand, the Church of Scientology’s New Zealand Secretary, Michael Ferriss, explained that the organisation’s income of $2.623 million in 2007 fell to $374,000 the following year because of, “from memory, the exchange rate drop”.

That’s right, apparently the Church of Scientology’s New Zealand arm dropped $2.25 million in income in just one year because of a bad Kiwi dollar.

Well, actually, the NZ dollar gained value on the US dollar, up from $1.46 to $1.30 between the 2007 and 2008 financial years.
The suggestion was ludicrous and practically everyone in the room knew it.

Rather, could it have had something to do with the fact that the New Zealand Charities Commission was established in 2005, meaning that organisations such as the Church of Scientology were then required to open their books for scrutiny?
It seems fairly logical – in order to justify why an organisation shouldn’t pay taxes, they should have to prove they deserve it.

Now, despite a fear a campaign from vested interests, the introduction of a Public Benefit Test as proposed in the Bill will not quash freedom of religion and won’t make things more difficult for charities.

The Church of Scientology is but one example of why the assessment of charities and religions by the Tax Office must include a transparent Public Benefit Test, and that the public benefit must be weighed against any harm the organisation causes.

On Monday, five former members of the Church of Scientology gave their personal accounts to the Senate Economics Committee.

These former members spoke about having a passport taken away from them so they couldn’t leave the United States headquarters; about the $1.2 million paid to the Church for ‘religious teachings’; how one woman was coerced into having two abortions and how she worked up to 70 hours a week for as little as $2000 a year.

Scientologists are entitled to believe or say, for example, that aliens from outer space have come here and been blown up in volcanos, if they wish.

But what is the public benefit that justifies taxpayers subsidising people being told that this is the cause of their problems?

Should Scientology ‘auditing’ sessions be regarded as providing a public benefit? They seem more like a cross between personal counselling and Maoist self-criticism.

And even if they do provide benefit to the individual paying for them (often at great cost) how is this of public benefit?

The Productivity Commission recently found that the tax-free benefit charities receive in relation to public funding is worth between $4 billion and $8 billion a year.

But under the current system, the ‘public benefit’ is presumed, but never really tested.

The Inquiry revealed that the Tax Office doesn’t have the resources to remove charitable or religious status from an organisation once it’s been granted, without court proceedings or Police investigations first taking place.

This is in stark contrast to the United Kingdom and New Zealand where their Charities Commission regularly reviews organisations to ensure they remain eligible for tax exemption.

The use of a Public Benefit Test in the UK and New Zealand has not been onerous on charitable or religious organisations in either country.

Here in Australia, the way the Tax Office determines tax exemptions for charities and religions is fundamentally flawed.

Former NSW State and Federal MP, Dr Stephen Mutch, who has assisted numerous victims of cults over the years, in particular former members of the Kenja cult, told the Inquiry about the discrepancies in the Tax Office’s current assessment.

The Raelian Movement, for example, was denied tax exemption status in Australia because they say they saw little green men emerging from spaceships.

Interestingly, they weren’t denied religious status because of the strange claim, but because they said they believed in something physical rather than having a belief of a spiritual nature.

So, if they had said that they believed in the spirit of little green men and not that they’d seen them, they too could be eligible for tax exempt status.

The Church of Scientology pointedly gave an opening statement to the Inquiry during which they said that only 19 Private Member’s Bills have been passed since Federation, implying that the chance of something happening with my Bill was unlikely.

But the fact is that the Senators from both the major parties, Liberal Senator Alan Eggleston and Labor Senators Doug Cameron and Ursula Stephens, who’s also the Parliamentary Secretary for Social Inclusion and the Voluntary Sector, took a keen and forensic interest in this Inquiry.

And with evidence that the United Kingdom and New Zealand Charities Commissions are working well, effectively and fairly, expect some real reforms here sooner, rather than later.

178 comments

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    • TrueOz says:

      06:35am | 02/07/10

      Some people out there (including one prospective PM) believe that a man who wears a purple dress and a pointy hat is the oracle of God on earth. Those same people believe that the bread and wine popped into their mouths each Sunday by a priest, somehow transmutes into the flesh and blood of some bloke who died 2,000 years ago, and was the son of God (in the flesh - by the way - not spiritually). They have saints who they claim have done miraculous things that people have actually seen - like healing the terminally ill. I reckon this stuff is right up there with aliens exploding in volcanos, and little green men visiting from Mars. Remove the tax free status of the Church of Scientology by all means - but make sure any legislation targets all of the other purveyors of superstition, stupidity and lies - with the mainstream churches at the top of the list.

    • mags says:

      07:07am | 02/07/10

      While I don’t share your views on what people choose to believe, I do agree that it is time all religious groups be treated as any other organisaton. The time of priviledge for these groups has long passed.

    • Julie says:

      07:34am | 02/07/10

      I think the Bible relates more to the existence of thinking expressing beings something seemingly only explained by the Christian Trinitarian concept in Genesis 1:1. All knowledge is either conceptual or non-conceptual as the Buddhist would say. Basically, anyone minus a concept for absolute is talking rubbish like the scientist who cannot explain to the human race why they think feel and wonder, based upon their material cosmos reality. I mean if you had no legs, this article would still make sense to you. If I had half a brain it would make non sense to me.

      I agree with you though, rules should apply to all systems which is a Christian idea by the way. It should apply to science as well while not a religion, plays the role of a religion when it comes to metaphysics or it’s monkey science based upon the single cell organism or our common ancestor. Our cousin Mar’s for example evolved from this cell like we did also. Now that’s weird even to my 9 year old daughter.

    • Sherlock says:

      07:35am | 02/07/10

      So what if people believe the above? How does it affect you? I’m not a man of faith myself but I fully support other peoples right to be. I have found that other people’s religious beliefs to have no real effect on my life.

      This persecution of religion by the left has become a religion in itself. The holier than thou attitude of its proponents is far worse than anything I’ve heard from regular churchgoers.

      Everytime I hear some moron going on about how ridiculous the tenets of religion are, all it shows to me is that they have no understanding whatsoever of the concept of faith. The longer they go on about it the more they display their total ignorance.

    • T.Chong says:

      08:00am | 02/07/10

      Sherlock, you would have to be the only poster who would consider Xenophon as some one of the left.

    • KH says:

      08:05am | 02/07/10

      Sherlock - Of course, people who don’t share your delusion are ‘morons’.  Well, we think people who believe in the claptrap peddled by the so called ‘religions’ of the world are morons.  You would have to be to believe in ‘noah’s ark’ for example.  I mean seriously - no one with more than two functioning brain cells could actually think this was true?  Don’t get me started on the huge number of other equally ridiculous claims.

    • TrueOz says:

      08:43am | 02/07/10

      @Sherlock

      I could respond to you by arguing against what you say, but I have no “faith” that you’d be able to understand it. Now, perhaps if I could somehow find the 2,000 year old musings of an old man of “faith”, hidden at the back of a cave in the middle east, and translate those into English, and HE argued against your stupdity - well…

    • Kirk says:

      09:51am | 02/07/10

      True Oz, you’re missing the point. It’s not about the beliefs of Scientologists. It’s about whether they can provide evidence of public benefit in order to retain tax exemption. People, often Scientologists, who make the argument you are making are either trying to muddy the conversation or missing the point entirely. You are making a straw man to rail against.

    • Sherlock says:

      10:04am | 02/07/10

      KH.

      I wrote that people such as yourself have no idea of the concept of faith and the more they go on about it the more they expose their ignorance.

      Then you come and post a comment that completely confirms what I wrote. The truly sad thing is that you (and True Oz) appear to be incapable of understanding why your comments only confirm my opinion.

    • marley says:

      10:33am | 02/07/10

      TrueOz - I don’t care what their beliefs are, organizations that do genuine charitable work (I’m think the Salvos, other churches and of course the non-religious charities that provide beds for the homeless, soup kitchens, drop in centres for youth, drug and alcohol counselling, assistance to the elderly, whatever) should get tax exemptions for those specific activities which would otherwise be up to the taxpayer to support.  That seems fair enough to me.  Win for us, win for the clients of the charities. 

      But I would limit the tax breaks entirely to charitable works.  No across the board tax exemption.  They pay property tax and tax on investments just like everyone else.

    • KH says:

      10:38am | 02/07/10

      And yours confirm mine - ignorance is a lack of understanding and knowledge, not a lack of faith.  I choose not to believe in nonsense.  That is hardly ignorant - in fact, its more likely that I am more open minded than you are, as I am not blinded by fiction nor constrained by beliefs that simply cannot be reconciled with the world of reality.

    • TrueOz says:

      10:47am | 02/07/10

      @Kirk

      You’re the one missing the point. The point is that ALL religions are equally absurb, and equally undeserving of tax-exempt status. Whatever “public good” they might do is irrelevant.

      @Sherlock

      Opinions are much like arseholes - everybody has one. It’s probably a HUGE stretch for a “man of faith” like yourself, but you could try considering FACTS sometime.

    • Tom says:

      10:57am | 02/07/10

      @ Sherlock. Of course it affects you when religious organisations get tax breaks of $4 to $8 billion a year. That is all money that isn’t going into schools and hospitals. Yes I know that some of it does acutally go into legitimate causes, however if that’s the case then they have nothing to fear from a Charities Commission.

      By all means believe what you want, just do it at the expense of the taxpayer.

    • Sherlock says:

      12:20pm | 02/07/10

      TrueOz and KH - please continue to parade your ignorance of the concept of faith to all and sundry. It’s actually rather funny. However as I previously posted it’s also a little sad that you’re completely incapable of understanding how your comments just prove my point.

      So incapable are you of grasping simple concepts you can’t even understand when I clearly wrote in my original posting that

      “I’m not a man of faith myself”

    • Natascha says:

      07:18pm | 02/07/10

      It’s not about beliefs. It’s about behaviour. Believe what you wish, show that you help the public and you get a tax exemption, do’t help or cause harm, and you wont. Simple, logical and about time it happened.

    • Matthew Cheyne says:

      07:36pm | 02/07/10

      I agree with you TrueOz and all most of the repliers. Time has well passed for these so called charitable religious instituions. Although freedom of speech and freedom of religion are accepted norms in this country, the freedom of people to organize in groups in order to claim a tax exemption as a result is no longer supported by the majority of people in Australia. Especially when you consider that these organizations are getting more and more corporate by the day, they should be treated just like real corporations in that they should have no tax exemption. have no special fringe benefits status and that they should have to pay the corporate tax rate and obey the same rules as companies do. Just because the particular service or product they provide is of a spiritual nature, they shouldn’t get away with not paying their fair share just like all the rest of us taxpayers have to.

    • TheRealDave says:

      07:38pm | 02/07/10

      I believe in Faith Sherlock. Faith in myself, faith in my family, faith in my friends.

      Thats about it.

      Everything above that needs to earn my trust and respect. There’s not a single religion out there that comes close.

      Faith in a man made ‘religion’ is a crutch for the weak, easy led and gullible. ‘Relgions’ and other cults should be audited regularly and taxed like any other modern business. I’d far rather those extra millions of dollars a year go back into the communities via better schools, better hospitals, better education rather than be kept in repressive middle ages based private members clubs.

    • Muttley says:

      02:41pm | 05/07/10

      Except RealDave that as civilised human beings we should not have to agree with something to be able to treat people with respect. I am an athiest and have been for over thirty years, but that does not mean it is necessary to treat followers of religion like they are mentally handicapped. Poor form. My beliefs are not so fragile that i need to rundown others to feel stronger.

    • Muttley says:

      02:45pm | 05/07/10

      TrueOz, Valid points have been made and all you do is throw insults. Shows how weak your argument is. Do you even read the posts?

    • BullClip says:

      06:43am | 02/07/10

      Go get em Nick!

    • Adriana M. says:

      07:58am | 02/07/10

      Tax free status to some mean the others will have to cover for them. It is in essence an extra tax put on all taxpayer. I have no problems with my tax money being used to subsidise religious or non -religious organisations that run orphanages and soup-kitchens, but I want to know that may tax money is put to good use, i.e. that the charities receiving tax free status actually do charitable work.

      This is what we elect politicians for. Thank you and the rest of the committee for their work Xenophon, and good luck on the bill!

    • Torch8008 says:

      05:37pm | 05/07/10

      If Xenophon had a look and asked some questions he would find the charitable work that is done by the church of Scientology.

      Instead Xenophon is making statements that are not true and finding a handful of upset ex-members to back him up.

      This is not justice it is a witch hunt.  Xenophon has hinden motives, why would he push so much untruth.

    • Pallyden says:

      08:09am | 02/07/10

      If the church of scientology can be tax exempt then why can the the church of world of warcraft not be exempt? there are over 10 million players?

    • Jon says:

      08:51am | 02/07/10

      Pallyden, a very good point!

    • TommyFan says:

      10:20am | 02/07/10

      But it CAN be tax exempt. All you have to do is say that you are a religion and apply for charitable status,  then you won’t need to pay tax anymore.

    • Laura says:

      11:10am | 02/07/10

      Good plan! Charitable work? WoW keeps teens off the streets where they could get into mischief. Instead they stay home to play!

      I look forward to being tax exempt in the near future.

    • MatLon says:

      08:39am | 02/07/10

      Keep it up Nick.

      Love the work you are doing on this.

    • electric blanket says:

      07:57pm | 02/07/10

      Its amazing how people attack others beliefs,really only worried they might have to think,not a member and never will be, but in a democracy,why cant they live the way they want to,The gutless would never attack a Jewish or Muslim institution for fear of reprisals,it seems all the plebs lack courage,surprise surprise,the voice of the mob justifying themselves by being a higher authority,sociopaths

    • Jay says:

      08:55am | 02/07/10

      All religions should be subject to tax, and the amount should be determined by what they actually contribute towards society.As soon as this is done you will see a number of these wacky religions disappear ie Scientology. I am sick of subsidising cults.

    • coldsnacks says:

      11:56am | 02/07/10

      So, taxation without representation?


      Or, do we give religions a voice in our parliaments, thereby shooting our separation of church and state in the foot?

    • A Bob says:

      12:22pm | 02/07/10

      Do we give corportions ‘a voice’? (Whatever that means.)

    • SkepDad says:

      01:05pm | 02/07/10

      @coldsnacks:

      Australia doesn’t have a constitutional separation of church and state.  More to the point, it doesn’t have a functional one either - witness the ACL’s influence in the internet filtering legislation, or the introduction of ID (which is just stealth christianity) into QLD state school science curriculums.

      Taxing religious groups no more “gives them a voice” than taxing corporations.  A business is a business, supernatural or otherwise.

      I as a taxpayer receive a specific tax deduction for specific charitable donations, when I can provide specific evidence for them.  I see no reason why an organisation, supernaturally based or otherwise, should be any different.

      End blanket tax exempt status altogether.

    • The Cricket says:

      01:34pm | 02/07/10

      Coldsnacks - the churchs DO have representation. They can vote as private citizens, as we all can.
      Businesses pay tax and they don’t get a vote.
      I don’t hear anyone complaining that they pay tax without representation.

    • The Redman says:

      02:02pm | 02/07/10

      Interesting point, Cricket. Furthermore, should they have representation without paying tax? And don’t forget, there is a particular Christian sect that forbids its’ members from voting at all, all the while donating to the right wing of politics.

    • Elphaba says:

      09:09am | 02/07/10

      People can believe what they want to believe, however I think Scientology’s ideas about psychology and psychiatry being bad for you, and people with severe mental illnesses like schizophrenics shouldn’t prescribed drugs to treat their illness, is dangerous.

      They’ve obviously not seen a schizophrenic off their meds in full-flight.

      Tax one, tax them all.  You can’t claim “God” as a reason to run them like a business, make money like a business, and spend it like a business.

    • Torch8008 says:

      05:49pm | 05/07/10

      It would be alright if psychology and psychiatry worked.

      Ask psychology and psychiatry what percentage of their patients do they fix, like realy fix.  People no longer on medication getting on with life.  You would be suprised.

      The ones winning here are those making money off the patients.

    • xyz says:

      08:02pm | 05/07/10

      Torch8008, Elphaba made the statement “They’ve obviously not seen a schizophrenic off their meds in full-flight.” We are talking about serious mental illness. You made a throw-away statement about no-one being helped at all by any phsychologist or psychiatrist, but you don’t back it up with any factual statistics. If Scientology has a sure-fire cure for schizophrenia… how about letting the world know about it… you’d make a fortune! What’s that… schizophrenia doesn’t exist according to CofS!

    • KH says:

      09:14am | 02/07/10

      Scientology is not a religion, it is an organisation that is making money out of its so called ‘members’, and laughing at governments who give them tax free status.  Hubbard actually mused about ‘creating his own religion’ then went and did it, now there are a bunch of people who believe it.  Hubbard was a science fiction writer - what, that wasn’t a clue?! 

      I think this cult is sinister in the way it targets people who are mentally vulnerable.  These vulnerabilities then appear to be further abused within this ‘church’, which is really sad for the victims - and yes, I would say they are victims.  The ‘celebrities’ who sell it are obviously not treated the same way as the ordinary members (clearly, seeing some of those peoples testimony), and they are used to push it further and suck more vulnerable people in by convincing them they too can be as ‘successful’ in life.  Some of the claims it makes are insane - aliens? Volcanoes? Are they kidding?  It sounds like a science fiction story, which of course it is.

      As an aside, it has just occurred to me that this is how any religion is created, and over time gains legitimacy - only in this case, using modern means such as the legal system, or money instead of the old fashioned promises about life after death etc.  It hasn’t even been 100 years since Hubbard came up with this nonsense, yet here we are discussing whether it should have tax free status ‘like other religions’? Who knows, after 2000 years, hey, it might become a ‘real’ religion…........

    • Tom says:

      04:06pm | 02/07/10

      You just described Hillsong

    • Eligius says:

      11:50am | 06/07/10

      To be fair to Scientologists, they no longer believe in aliens.

    • Seano says:

      09:23am | 02/07/10

      It’s about time someone stood up to this nasty cult. And I like the way it’s being done so that people who are doing real charitable work are unaffected.

    • Grant says:

      09:24am | 02/07/10

      Nick,

      Why aren’t you pursuing any of the other religious organisations so enthusiastically?

      The other religious organisations that have committed much sinister crimes over a protracted period of time against the most helpless.  Crimes against humanity.

      You are only gunning for Scientology because you think their beliefs are bizarre.  But when you really look at what mainstream churches believe and what scientology believes, both sound unreasonable to a rational person.

      I mean really, ghosts, resurrection, an invisible entity that can create matter, and who has the ability to manipulate the fabric of space and time.

      I consider the church of scientology the same as these other nonsensical belief systems.  So in that vein they have as much right as any of the others to believe in whatever they want and get tax free status.

    • Fred says:

      10:05am | 02/07/10

      Grant I think you’re getting confused here - yes most religions have some sort of violent, shameful thing in their history.  Xenophon is making the point that there are religious institutions that are also great charities, so far, Scientology has not been able to prove this.  And with the implementation of this tax, they would have to.  And if they can prove it, then good on them for doing anything charitable.  If they can’t, then I don’t want them to be exempt from tax, and I don’t want any religion that doesn’t perform charitable works exempt from tax.

    • marley says:

      10:36am | 02/07/10

      You misunderstand the whole point.  It’s not about what they believe, it’s about whether the “charitable” services they provide should be enough to render them tax exempt.  For my money, no institution should get across the board tax exempt status - but organizations like the Salvos should damn well get some sort of tax break for all the charitable activities they do which otherwise the taxpayer would have to finance.  Scientologist counselling sessions don’t count.

    • iansand says:

      09:53am | 02/07/10

      Tax ther churches but allow them deductions for the money they spend on charitable purposes.

    • Harry says:

      10:01am | 02/07/10

      Taxes the churches for sure, but what aboutt he good charities out there?

    • Kevin Bloody Mackey says:

      08:30pm | 03/07/10

      The good charities would pass a Public Benefit Test.

      The dodgy ones, not so much.

    • Margot says:

      10:06am | 02/07/10

      Good on you Nick….........Xenophone for PM! :D
      The major problem I have with Scientology is that they are deceitful and dangerous.Go look up “Operation snow white”, it was the largest infiltration of the U.s federal government in american history,over 5000 Scientology agents infiltrated all levels of government and they stole and destroyed thousands of “unfavorable” documents about the church and L.R Hubbard. If they could do something like this in the past whos to say they won’t or are not doing it again?The other problem I have is where does all this money go?The hundreds of millions they gouge every year out of desperate people who are looking for answers.I’ve never seen a Scientology soup kitchen,women or mens shelter,charity op shop….nothing!How can you be good for a community if you put absolutely nothing into that community? But whats the point of complaining right?They’re in the pockets of so many powerful people that this battle is all up hill.

    • Jon says:

      10:16am | 02/07/10

      Religions are dangerous and they kill and they are killing people now. They muddle the minds of children and destroy people lives and families. I would agree that banning religion is like banning human stupidity it can’t be done. But we must find ways of limiting their influence and hold them to account for their absurdities.

      That not say, that they are all unethical. Maybe the government tax concessions could be on a sliding scale and that is depended upon their compatibility with universal human rights. Another way is to edit out parts of the various holy books that contravene universal human rights, logic, reason and thus bring them into synergy with Secular Society.

      Or maybe, outing religions behaving badly by a yearly awards on the basis that they have worked against, and not for, equality and human rights. This would certainly make them improve their behavior.

      Food for thought!

      Man is a Religious Animal. Man is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion—several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn’t straight.”

      Mark Twain.

    • Peter says:

      10:59am | 02/07/10

      “Religions are dangerous and they kill and they are killing people now. They muddle the minds of children and destroy people lives and families. I would agree that banning religion is like banning human stupidity it can’t be done. But we must find ways of limiting their influence and hold them to account for their absurdities.”. That’s a bit harsh, im religious and i haven’t killed anyone, i don’t know how many families have been destroyed by going to church, and in terms of stupidity, are Clinton, Howard, Einstein stupid?

      I think there is a reason why most human beings are spiritual and it has nothing to do with stupidity..

    • The Redman says:

      12:06pm | 02/07/10

      Your right, Peter. Religion has everything with three things. Hope, fear and ignorance. Hope that there is something better out there, fear that once you die, you die and the ignorance of those who if they can’t explain something, then it must be the work of god.

    • Peter says:

      12:16pm | 02/07/10

      I dont fear death anymore Redman, how wants to live forever, in this world anyway? I put that down to my spirituality. I can accuse athiests of being ignorant as well. Name calling on this topic doesn’t get us very far..

    • Bundy says:

      12:35pm | 02/07/10

      Peter - fundamentally religion is fear.  Fear of the unknown, fear of that which is not understood, fear of being helpless, fear of the afterlife.  Sure, in many cases it has evolved from that but think about it - the concept of an all powerful god/gods that control all aspects of our world.  It was far easier for man to understand that than to grasp the true complexity of nature.

      I am not saying people are stupid for believing it.  Some people need that reassurance that they are not just a bundle of carbon atoms at a point in time and space.  If that helps them in their day, so be it, good for them.  If it helps them be nice to others, even better.  Just don’t push it on me or my society - religion should be a personal thing, not a mandate for ruling others.

      You might say that is a cold view of the world, where is the moral guidance?  Well, I am happy to borrow one religious idea - “do unto others”.  I just don’t need the rest of the baggage that goes with it.

    • neil says:

      12:53pm | 02/07/10

      Peter, Einstein? One of the great myths that christian zealots love to propergate.

      “The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can change this.”

      Albert Einstein, letter to Erik Gutkind1954.

      Einstein described himself as a “Pantheist” One who believes that if God can exist without a creator then so can the universe. Which makes the argument for god illogical and irrelevant.

    • Peter says:

      01:12pm | 02/07/10

      @ Bundy, have you experience this fear? The last time i check Christ never acted like a boogy man or try to instill fear in people. I feel quite comfortable about death, billions of people have died before us, how bad can it be?

      I just see death as a natural part of life, we come, we see, and we go .... somewhere perhaps? Who knows?

    • The Redman says:

      01:19pm | 02/07/10

      As an athiest, I don’t fear death either. I accept it is the natural cycle of live for every living creature on the planet. Although there might be a microbe out there that lives forever. Religion in part arose in ancient times when mankind had no concept of time and no concept of the finality of death. A major breakthrough for mankind was the discovery of self. Upon that discovery, mankind considered itself superior to all other creatures. After all, while other creatures concentrated solely on survival, mankind created, thought, painted.

      My view is that at some point in time, mankind became convinced that, as they were so superior to all other creatures, therefore a deity must have some greater purpose for mankind, and death does not halt that process. Every religion is based on what happens after you die. Every religion says that if you follow the laws of this god, you will be in paradise, if you do not, you will be in hell (and I’m not confining myself to the christian concept of hevean and hell).

      Just remember, christianity was not the first religion. In fact, religion had been part of ‘civilisation’ for thousands of years. Every single one then, as it does today, revolves fundamentaly around the afterlife and assuaging mankind’s fear of death.

    • The Redman says:

      01:31pm | 02/07/10

      I’m not name calling, Peter, but I am challenging the theory. Do not equate ignorance with stupidity. I’m not a stupid person, but I’m ignorant on how to fix a gearbox.  (I know I’m leading with my chin on that one).

      Knowledge has always been the enemy of religion. Atheism has come to represent a reasonable theory (I accept that is what it is, the difference being religions don’t) because over the centuries many things heretofor attributed to the mysteries of god, have been scientifically proven to be a natural and normal occurance in the universe. A shooting star is not the sign of god, it is a lump of rock hurtling through the atmosphere. A river turning red is a result of the large amounts of oxide in the water following alluvial floods, not blood delivered by god. Lighting and thunder are not gods wrath upon an ungrateful world, it is the result of certain meteorological conditions in the atmosphere. An earthquake is the result of two or more continental plates colliding, not an expression of god’s anger.

      That’s my point.

    • Peter says:

      01:46pm | 02/07/10

      Thanks Redman.. I have actually seen a lake turn red. Well it happened over night when i was on Fraser Island as a student back in 1984. Our tour guide told us that the water got a tan, i think your explanation makes more sense to me.

      I am quite happen to have a discussion on the basis we are both talking about theories when it comes to religion and athiesism. I have got my back up before on these forums from the relentless name calling by people of differing opinions..

    • The Redman says:

      02:11pm | 02/07/10

      I agree with you with the name calling. I try to avoid it, but admit I have sometimes failed to live up to my own standards. Not often, but occassionaly. I do try to avoid it. Just to clarify, I was not calling you or anyone an ignoramous or stupid, just that many theories, and not just christianity but political and social, rely on lack of knowledge, shall we say, to recruit members.

      That’s a generalisation, of course, but I certainly wasn’t accusing anyone of being personally ignorant, and I was speaking more historically that contemporary - the reasons religion exists in the first place. In many ways, religion is more of a tradition than a revelation. You must admit that in the early days of the Christian church, the vast majority that joined what was then considered a cult were illiterate, innumerate, wholly uneducated and massively superstitious. It is well knows that christianity in the time of Christ was but one of many cults that truly believed that the Roman occupation and slaughter had brought the End Of Times as prophesised. Revelations is merely an updated version of this ancient belief.

      And again, it comes down to what happens to you in the afterlife. Life on this earth, according to all religions, is but preparation for life after death.

    • Peter says:

      02:39pm | 02/07/10

      @ Neil, i’ll give you that one, did some quick research..

      @ Redman, i’ve done it too (the name calling). I think i went a little far in a previous post accusing athiests of secretly being devil worshipors. But that was said in anger to what i saw as harsh judgements coming the other way.. No excuse i suppose..

    • Patrick says:

      10:56am | 03/07/10

      Yeah Peter I loved your stuff about how we are all fish-mutants and us atheists are doing the devils work by not believing in God. Was good to see you put religion back to the crusades.

    • Peter says:

      04:13pm | 05/07/10

      @ Patrick. You have a good memory..  I better watch what i say now…

      @ Redman, those red lakes are an awesome sight…

    • Peter says:

      10:20am | 02/07/10

      Get em Nick. Any church that DEMANDS money from its followers should be shut down..

    • PaulB says:

      11:34am | 02/07/10

      The minute they demand money, they cease to be a Church/religion and become a business operation.  I would say the same happens the minute they invest money in the expectation of a return.

    • Peter says:

      01:14pm | 02/07/10

      Nothing wrong with a church handling its money wisely and if that means a return, that’s ok, there is no conflict with Christianity there.

    • NEFFA says:

      05:19pm | 02/07/10

      I agree, once you are finished with Scientology move on to hillsong

    • Torch8008 says:

      05:56pm | 05/07/10

      People wanting something for nothing are on the dole bludging.

      Criminals want something for nothing.

    • T.Chong says:

      10:24am | 02/07/10

      The “proper “mainstream religions have an appalling history of intolerance, violence, subjugation - ( Spains slave trade had full Papal as well as monarchial approval after all ), and genocides committed by them all, at one time or another that to believe in any of it , or that one is “real ” and others aint,  defies sense.  Superstition of any brand is a blight.
      May The Force Be With You.

    • The Redman says:

      12:12pm | 02/07/10

      In the history of mankind, there has been no Kingdom with more blood on its’ hands than that of the Kingdom of God.

    • AdamC says:

      05:05pm | 02/07/10

      That must be because the socialists ran ‘Republics’ rather than ‘Kingdoms’. Semantics aside, the Godless (or, better put, followers of secular religions) have a higher body count than the God-fearing, at least in the last several hundred years.

    • Loxy says:

      10:30am | 02/07/10

      All churches should be charged the business tax rate and then those religions who also do charity work should be able to claim that as a tax deduction. With regards to Scientology, I would like the government to go one step further and label it a cult. The way they treat people in general, however especially those with a mental illness is barbaric and dangerous and should be outright banned in this country.

      Keep up the pressure on this one Nick!

    • Renee says:

      10:32am | 02/07/10

      I think the Senator has made it abundently clear that this has nothing to do with beliefs and everything to do with the abuses of Scientology and the fact that they in no way benefit the public.  While I consider myself an agnostic, there are many churches, temples, etc in my city that help those less fortunate.  Scientology does nothing, and I mean NOTHING that benefits the public in any way.  Everything they do is designed to extract the maximum amount of money from its adherants.  Nothing is to reprehensible, be it coerced abortions, the break-up of families or any other of their many horrendous practices.  My only regret is that as a U.S. citizen I cannot vote for Nick.  And that we live too far apart to date.

    • neil says:

      10:34am | 02/07/10

      Scientology is not a religion it’s a sect that uses a crude philosophy that you can find in any junk self help book to control and manipulate week willed an insecure people.

      They should not be elidible for tax consessions as their organisation does not benefit the broader comunity, it benefits a select few of it’s members.

      As Bob McGuire put it, you won’t se scientologists manning the soup kitchen.

    • Katie says:

      10:52am | 02/07/10

      Yes tax these churches.  But more then anything I want to see transparancy in all religious organisations.  Financial statements of each religious group (or charity for that matter) should be readily accessable to public (like a publically listed company), churches should also be completely transparent about thier beliefs and requirements of membership. 

      Religion always evades closer scrutiny because it’s - politically incorrect or ignorant or bigotted - take your pick - to make adverse negative comments or action against these groups.  They hide behind “god”- but really they are concealing thier very human activities of, manipulation, control and greed.

      There are many good, ethical and inspired churches out there, but unfortunately there are some really bad apples…..

    • Greta says:

      11:08am | 02/07/10

      Whether Scientology or any other organization is a religion or not is NOT THE POINT.  The point is: 1. Are they a charity?  And 2. Do they do more harm than good?

      Answer 1. NO

      Answer 2. YES

      Australians, stop subsidizing this cult/relgion, call it what you will..  It’s your tax dollars that are lost on the millions of dollars Scientology brings in from its customers.

    • Elphaba says:

      11:17am | 02/07/10

      Why can’t they just compare churches to a private enterprises making similar money, look at the tax rate, and the halve (or two thirds, whatever) it for churches?

      They still contribute tax, while enjoying leeway for being a religious organisation.

    • Harry says:

      11:23am | 02/07/10

      perhaps a flat tax structure, say 10%,  for all businesses, people, churches, and charities will stop all this thieving by alleged religuos folk and business people.  there is no reason to hide money if all tax is equal..

    • Worker from down the street says:

      11:32am | 02/07/10

      Scientology has as much credibility as the current Labor movement at State & Federal level.

      Take all the punters dough & waste it how they see fit with zero or minimal accountability.

      If the UK & NZ have procedures that obviously work regarding church’s & charities how hard is it to download, cut & paste, then present it to Parliament?

      A wheel is round, it does not need reinventing.

      The same can be said for legislation. If something is working in other countries with similar demographics there is no need to waste time & money on re-writing it for local consumption.

      Laws get written & passed in the English language & last time I looked the same is true of the UK & NZ. It then goes without saying an Oostraalian translation would not be required or even necessary.

    • barry says:

      11:57am | 02/07/10

      Great work Mr Xenophon!  You are a champion of common sense.

    • mid says:

      12:09pm | 02/07/10

      Thankfully we live in a country that has the freedom of religion in the constitution. Personally I couldn’t care in the least what you worship/don’t worship. As long as you’re beliefs don’t harm others, then it is not for me to judge.
      However, I strongly believe that the tax free status should be for organisations (and not just churches) that deliver a net public benefit. It disturbs me somewhat that our elected leaders from the 2 major parties have reservations about investigating changes to the blanket tax exemption for religions. Good on you Nick for having a go.

    • James says:

      12:32pm | 02/07/10

      Make all looney groups (aka religions/cults) pay their way. 

      They should only be allowed tax exemptions on activities that are of direct benefit to the public, on the condition that they do not use those activities to convert people to their ‘way’.

      Why should a golf club/ yacht club/ bowls club/ etc. have to pay any tax if a religious club does not?  They are all run primarily for the benefit of members.

    • Peter says:

      01:18pm | 02/07/10

      I don’t see many yacht clubs feeding homeless people every night. And there you go with your name calling again James. I think this topic has made you loony because you haven’t ceased with the name calling ever since ive been on the punch.

    • James D says:

      12:33pm | 02/07/10

      I am agnostic, I believe in each to his own, but this church seems totally whacko to me. Good onya Nick bring the bugga’s down, before they do more damage to gullible Aussies.

    • Bob H says:

      01:11pm | 02/07/10

      Churches need to contribute to society in a tangible way not just in a way that is acceptable to its congregation.  They are all at an advantage as “god will provide” regardless, so whats the problem in them being treated equally.

    • ungodly says:

      01:18pm | 02/07/10

      while we’re at it, outlaw all tax exemptions on all religions, ( new ones start purely to get the tax breaks ) and also make it criminal for anyone to come to my house knocking on my door, trying to push their perverted views onto me! ( or at least make it legal to whack them round the head with a lump of 4x2! ) -

    • DJ says:

      05:15pm | 02/07/10

      NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - how am I meant to start my religion and recruit at Uni’s if you take away my tax break????

    • stephen says:

      01:21pm | 02/07/10

      They appear to be harmless to me, but if Nick is so indignant he should ensure Pauline H. doesn’t screw another 60 grand from us to fund her picnics.

    • Anjuli says:

      01:32pm | 02/07/10

      @ Ungodly .Be like me and get a sign which say no charities or religious callers ,I have one above the door bell it has stopped all back packers who were collecting for God know what and all those unwanted religious callers.
      As for the tax it seems to me that the miners have let Tony Abbott down and left him with egg on his face ,and he was on their side.So what is the difference between them and what the Labor Party have done to Kevin Rudd

    • Peter says:

      01:49pm | 02/07/10

      How can we make Nick our PM? I reckon he is without a doubt, the most respected politician we’ve got..

      Anyone got any ideas?

    • T.Chong says:

      01:59pm | 02/07/10

      Put an ad in the paper for tin foil hat wearers, (although he might take some of Fieldings followers), and announce which phone box the meeting will be had in.

    • Peter says:

      02:35pm | 02/07/10

      How can you say that T.Chong? Nick has many fans and i know he is respected by people in the major parties as well..

    • Fred says:

      05:30pm | 02/07/10

      I think it stems from the fact that he’s an Independent - he has no party line to tow so he can do what politicians were meant to do from the beginning - fight for what they believe in.

    • Kate G says:

      01:51pm | 02/07/10

      That an organisation like the Church of Scientology enjoys tax free status is outrageous. That status should, as Xenophon says, rely on proven charitable works as the system demands in NZ and Britain. Australia is lagging behind on this one and continuing to let a privileged few get richer while they brow beat their “followers” into handing over their cash. THis is not an argument about the lack of merit of scientology as a “faith”, it is about the lack of merit of scientology as an organisation able to prove any public good. Good luck Xenophon.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      02:42pm | 02/07/10

      But…But…How are the Australian Christian Lobby and Hillsong are going to make their money to lobby federal parliamentarians and kick into party election funds? This bill could potentially damage the normal corrupt practices and must be stopped at all costs.

    • Terry Wright says:

      03:10pm | 02/07/10

      To say they offer any benefit to society from their drug counselling and anti-drug education is a joke.

      “Scientology technology has been able to eradicate the major damage in persons who have been on drugs as well as make further addiction unnecessary and unwanted.
      [...]
      Thus, Scientology contains an exact technology which not only gets a person painlessly off drugs but handles their physical, mental and spiritual effects and locates and fully resolves the reason underlying a person’s drug-taking. Nothing else can do this with certainty.”
      -Scientology Handbook

      Have you ever heard of Foundation for a Drug Free World(FDFW) and their campaign titled They Lied - Find Out the Truth About Drugs? Have you ever heard of DrugFree Ambassadors? What about Narconon? You often see their ads in the GoogleAds section on websites or anywhere that anti-drug campaigns are run. They have been part of government initiatives for years and their brochures/videos are handed out regularly in Australian schools. Narconon and DrugFree Ambassadors often get political endorsements and are praised by many anti-drug zealots in Australia. What they don’t tell you is that they are all owned and operated by Scientology and are simply a front to recruit more members.

      The most notorious is Narconon that trick “patients” into dangerous, ineffective and expensive treatment. They have been exposed so many times as frauds that I am surprised there hasn’t been a previous enquiry.

      Their scam is simple. They offer free, super glossy brochures to get acceptance from anti-drug groups, government departments and schools. Their products are full of the typical, scary anti-drug slogans and exaggerations that politicians love so much and they play heavily on the fear of parents. Then they can set up shop and the Scientology disease begins to spread.

      The damage these people do is immeasurable. To think they get tax breaks is just an insult to those groups who do real work in the drug and alcohol field with very little or no government assistance.

      Do a web search on Foundation for a Drug Free World , They Lied - Find Out the Truth About Drugs, DrugFree Ambassadors or Narconon. I guarantee that you will soon be supporting Nick Xenophon.

    • James says:

      03:45pm | 02/07/10

      Xenophon, if the Church of Scientology has nothing to fear from a public benefit test, then why are you pushing for the test?

      Your reasoning is flawed in this respect.

      In addition, Scientology auditing raises IQ, helps the individual to become more sane, able and willing to confront situations in life, and more responsible and able to help others. If this is not for the public benefit then what is?

      The alleged crimes of Scientology should be referred to the proper authorities for investigation and no more tax payers money should be wasted on your personal vendetta against the Church.

    • Michelle says:

      04:24pm | 02/07/10

      Oh dear - James, you’ve drunk the Kool Aid.

      Scientology does not raise IQ, does not make individuals saner and does not help them confront life. I know - I was a Scientologist for 10 years. They make you take the same IQ test over & over until you get “good” at it. It creates a bunch of individuals with a false confront of the “dangerous” world they think they are escaping with their “Bridge to total Bankruptcy” and they only help themselves - no non paying public EVER benefit from Scientology. In Hubbard’ws on words Charity is “Criminal” exchange.

      But Xenophon’s bill is not about beliefs. The High Court ruling in 1983 put the question of Scientology’s religiosity to bed. Legally it’s a religion whether it believes in virgin conception, being reincarnated as a goat, or having the souls of dead space aliens infesting your body. In my mind all are equally absurd. This bill wants a PBT to determine whether a group gets tax relief or not based in it’s good/charitable broad public works balanced against any harm.

      Scientology does harm people - big time. There are a number of people around who’ll swear that they are “better off” because of Scientology. Just as there are people who are better off after being in psychotherapy for 10 years. But is this a broad public benefit? No..It’s counselling, sold at a VERY high price that benefits ONE individual. For every person who says Scn helped them, there are 10 others who tell a different story.

      I noticed in the testimony given by the cult on Monday at the senate commission hearings, that the mainly unspoken objection to this PBT was the “More good than harm” element. Scientology KNOWS it will fail there - and it should.

      Look people can believe what they want and spend fortunes on chasing fairies if they like, but I don’t want to subsidise those groups with my tax dollar.

      Nick Xenophon is doing us a huge public service.

    • chris says:

      04:27pm | 02/07/10

      Auditing obviously didn’t raise your IQ,  James.

    • Len says:

      05:01pm | 02/07/10

      James said: “Scientology auditing raises IQ, helps the individual to become more sane, able and willing to confront situations in life, and more responsible and able to help others.”

      Straight from the $cientology brochures.

      And every legitimate, peer reviewed, scientific review of IQ changes in long term $cientologists has shown there is no such raising of the IQ.

      Another example of L. Ron Hubbard’s fiction.

    • NEFFA says:

      05:10pm | 02/07/10

      i have one thing to say to you james - Tom Cruise.

    • Trjn says:

      05:18pm | 02/07/10

      “In addition, Scientology auditing raises IQ, helps the individual to become more sane, able and willing to confront situations in life, and more responsible and able to help others. If this is not for the public benefit then what is?”
      [citation required]

    • Fred says:

      05:35pm | 02/07/10

      @ James - “if the Church of Scientology has nothing to fear from a public benefit test, then why are you pushing for the test?”

      Let me turn this question around to you - If the Church of Scientology benefits the public more than it harms it (which is what the public benefit test would measure) then why are they opposing it?

      Could it be because their profits in NZ dropped by more than 2 million as a result of it?  Could that be it? 

      If any religion can prove it provides more benefit than harm in the form of charities, then they deserve to be tax exempt - including Scientology! 

      The question is, would they pass this test…?

    • Sam says:

      05:39pm | 02/07/10

      The Idea which is a good one is that the public good of a religon (used in the broadest possible sense) should not be assumed, but proven. I am yet to find a single person against this idea, except for those that are religions that do not provide a public good.
      I do not know if Scientology does or does not provide a public good, but if it is unable to prove public service and public good it should not recieve a tax exemption. Every other religion that is unable to prove a public service, public good, should also not be tax exempt.

    • Natascha says:

      07:15pm | 02/07/10

      You’re confusing the issue James. The PBT is needed so that Australians aren’t subsidizing non-benefical or harmful groups.  You make some unsubstantiated claims, too.

    • Tedd says:

      07:51pm | 02/07/10

      Scientology auditing does not raise IQ just because someone says it does; claims such as that require independent well assessed studies, as does claims sci-tology auditing helps the individual become more sane, etc.

    • Jon says:

      08:08pm | 02/07/10

      Im not sure why we should pay tax again on money donated to the church when we have already paid tax when we first earned it.
      Xenophon isnt interested in saving tax money. He wants to attack our church because his buddies up there in the pharmaceutical industry are tired of us slowing down their drug sales to children. This is a war between a group of corporations and a religion trying to exist.

    • Ken says:

      10:58pm | 02/07/10

      Adding to what James says I would say that Senator Xenophon’s actions have all the earmarks of a one sided attack., starting late last year with an outrageous attack late at night when few members of the senate were there. He has never troubled himself to directly contact any Church member who is performing public benefits or find out from the leaders of the C of S what their views are. I have been in Scientology for over 40 years. I’ve seen a lot. No individual on this earth right now is perfect, nor is any organisation.  I measure a group by the degree of actual, real help that is given freely. The C of S specializes in a number of areas. Disaster areas is one major one. Volunteer ministers trained by the C of S go to areas such as bushfires in Sydney, Victoria, Floods in North Queensland, and overseas disasters such as the Tsunami in Asian countries. I personally know many of the good people who went. These actions are funded by specific C of S groups including members of C of S from around the world. Since a major purpose of the C of S is to raise a person’s ability through auditing and training to address the challenges of life the result is people who are more willing to help and are capable of giving real help. Many other programs such as Drug Education for the public are done by former drug users who have used the programs of Scientology to free themselves from addiction. I highly recommend the idea” Look, see for yourself directly, not through a cloud of prejudice, fear or what someone else says” - I personally like the key saying by L Ron Hubbard, ie if after closely examining the subject it not true for you, it is not true for you.It is up to oneself to decide.

    • R. Hill says:

      01:06am | 03/07/10

      It has “nothing to fear” IF it is indeed charitable as it CLAIMS to be.

      Problem is, it is not charitable, quite the opposite. This is exactly why the Church of Scientology is against this bill, because it will fail with the lowest marks the test to determine whether it is charitable.

    • Grendel says:

      11:10am | 03/07/10

      ken, yes they sent volunteers overseas,  but to do what? Dig latrines? Rebuild? deliver much needed supplies? No. They went to audit and establish Scientology counseling centers that in the case of Haiti at least freaked the locals out substantially. And these are people for whom voodoo has been part of the local culture for centuries. And they found you guys weird!

    • Patrick says:

      11:14am | 03/07/10

      Hey all you guys from the “C of S”, have you actually looked at what Scientology used to be before L. Ron Hubbard got his arse sued to hell for peddling the worst kind of snake oil? Engrams were presumed to cause all of your troubles, and ol’ Mr Hubbard could clear you right up for a few hundred bucks, no worries! He also said that he could eventually make people “Clear” of engrams, and that they would have psychic powers, absolute control of body temperature and individual organs, and a whole bunch of other nutbag-esque fantasies straight from his wonderfully creative fictitious brain.

      What you signed up for is the toned-down, “I’m not going to pretend I can make people magic and just steal their money” version of Scientology, created over years to hide right on the edges of legality, making sure to get your full permission to screw you out of every cent you’re good for.

      “.. Scientology auditing raises IQ, helps the individual to become more sane, able and willing to confront situations in life, and more responsible and able to help others.”

      That sentence right there is how incredibly pussy-footed Hubbard had to become in order to avoid getting put in jail for a long long time. No longer can he claim to cure all ills, make a person live for 200 years, and all the other crap he first used to establish “engram-treatment” as a “science”. Now his church just runs a rather good Ponzi scheme, promising fictional returns in the form of supposed IQ-raising, “sanity improvement” (which is odd, considering the Church of Scientology’s stance on mental illness / psychologists in general) and the ability to “confront” a situation, which I’m sure nobody but a Scientologist would know. . . Do you guys have fun for all that money you lose though? I know I sure would want to. . . .

    • chris says:

      12:04pm | 03/07/10

      James, if the most intelligent thing you can bring to this debate is a cut-and-paste from Scientology propaganda then you really do play into the hands of the vast majority on this thread.
      I have first-hand experience, going back nearly three decades, of the misery caused by these barking mad nut-jobs so to Nick X i say: Keep pursuing these people without fear or favour. It’s just a shame you can’t rely on more of your colleagues for support.

    • Katie Noel says:

      12:36pm | 03/07/10

      Woops, looks like the Scientologists have discovered the article!
      @ James 1. Prove that it does any of the things that you say by independent scientific tests.  2.  Assuming it even did any of the things that you claim, i.e., raised your IQ, CoS was amply paid by you for any service they provided.  IT WAS NOT A CHARITABLE SERVICE!  By your logic, any business, for an example a college, that helped make you smarter should get a tax deduction.  So CoS should not only not be taxed but get a double benefit by your logic.

      @ Jon   You the individual Scientologist are not having to pay more; just the CoS if this were to go through and Scientology not pass the PBT. 

      @ Ken Oh my, that old saw!  “We help at disaster sites”- ok, lets take that one on.  First of all, this is done for publicity per LRH policy, it is done for recruitment.  And as At 9-11 site in NYC, for example, it is done to preventintercept if possible, people getting proper mental health care.  Emails from CoS officials about 9-11 response stated very clearly what their objective was-to cut off the “psyches” from getting at the victims.  In any event, what should be noted is that no actual supplies are sent PAID for by the CoS; “volunteers” go, either paying for themselves or raising money to go.  The CHURCH GENERALLY DOES NOT PAY FOR ANYTHING!  so how can any benefit redound to the CoS?  Once they are there, the untrained, unschooled volunteers often cause more harm than they help.

    • Kevin Bloody Mackey says:

      08:25pm | 03/07/10

      For Jon,
      I was a Scientologist for 26 years and spent 15 on the vaunted solo nots levels, bad news Jon, the bridge leads not to total freedom.

      Currently thousands are defecting and many are becoming independant Scientologists alone with Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder, Dan Koon and the last cl 12s that Hubbard trained. They are preserving the tech for you now.

      As for the great conspiracy of Big Pharma being behind attacks on the CofS….PHHHHH! I refer you to KSW1; “attacks only occur when we get no results or bad results.”

      The days are numbered for the CofS, your paranoid leader, David Miscavige has virtually shut down all the functions of Scientology barring “hard sell” and now it’s money with no exchange on offer. It has become by it’s own definition a criminal organisation, I refer you to the four conditions of exchange if my comments are strange to you.

      As for the public benefit test, I doubt the CofS could ever pass it regardless of what you’ve heard at those very expensive Scientology events, you wouldn’t be aware of the wreakage left by them but make no mistake the rest of the world is learning very rapidly.

      It’s you Scios that really need to look, and outside of that Truman show that you live in, Scientology isn’t making the world better, all you have to do is look at staff conditions and pay to realize that it could’t improve a dog kennel.

    • Kevin Bloody Mackey says:

      11:24am | 04/07/10

      So James, in the case that Senator Xenophon’s logic is flawed then you have nothing to fear, that is if the CofS clearly meets and passes a PBT, no harm no foul as they say.

      Hello Ken, I’m glad you commented on this thread as a 40 year veteran of the CofS, btw, how has that worked out for you and your family?

      Regarding the LRH quote, “If it’s not true for you then it’s not true” It would seem then a PBT would be a good and fair objective test of the truth when it comes to the harm/benefit ratio of the CofS then wouldn’t it? There does seem to be evidence that for the general consenus it is not true that the CofS provides any tangible benefit for the broader community.

      On the subject of “looking for yourself” I commend that approach and recommend that you look at the thousands of pages of data provided from ex scientologists that have been put on the web and in testimony.

      Or is it only non Scientologists that should look for them selves?

      Are you really allowed to look for yourself?

    • NEFFA says:

      04:03pm | 02/07/10

      Keep pushing Nick. Love your work

    • Wallaby says:

      05:17pm | 02/07/10

      Nick, keep this at the front in parliament.  In fact keep all religions in the front so that one day there will be a deterrent to those morons starting up new sects.  Tax the lot of them. Make them proove their charitable ways.  Look at the latest evil, the Christian Revivals, the ones of Oz Talent fame. Pure Evil for the gullible and vulnerable people of our society.

    • Gregg says:

      06:40pm | 02/07/10

      If Julia’s athiesism only extends to real churches she might just solve their problems before they start in cutting a great resourcefulness deal, maybe Peter Garrett or Kev making it to the outer cabinet as Minister for Scientology.
      With all the wheeling and dealing going on, nothing would surprise.

    • Alan Graham says:

      07:26pm | 02/07/10

      The point you are all missing is this: This Inquiry is just another thin-end-of-the-wedge attack against all religion. Who gains? Just look at the rise and rise of the mental health industry. Just look at how many associations, alliances, groups promote mental health and just look at the hundreds of websites targeting all ages, ethnicities, social strata. They are everywhere.
      That 1 in 5 will be mentally ill at some time in their lives is a lie. The true figure, based on U.K. figures is more like 1 in 720!! This is propaganda at work.

    • Patrick says:

      11:29am | 03/07/10

      The rabid denouncement of psychologists and mental health experts / independent senators fighting for a worthy issue is on the rise and rise. Just look at how many come out of the woodwork to attack Nick’s well-needed comments on the dodgy status of some quasi-religious so-called charitable organisations in Australia. They are everywhere.

      That 1in 5 people will be harassed by a Scientologist is probably a quite true fact nowadays, asking us what our crimes are, and how Xenu will come and slaughter his arch-enemy, the evil space-lord Xenophon of South Australia.

      But anyway, you Scientologists need to go and practice your numbers, rather than commenting on blogs, you’re going to need to do magic with them once this Benefit Test is implemented!

    • Kevin Bloody Mackey says:

      08:51pm | 09/07/10

      Alan, that you as a Scientologist, and I know you are, fight the wrongs and past abuses of a mental health field imagined and real does not therefore absolve you or your “church” for it’s own abuses. Which are many.

      Whether or not there have been abuses in the mental health industry is irrelevant to Scientology having to undergo a Public Benefit Test. Your argument is just obfuscation of the issue and that is due to the abuses that have come to light from ‘some’ religions it is indicated that a public benefits test would be a good idea. It is a simple and just proposal.

    • Grendel says:

      07:40pm | 02/07/10

      Churches, and by extension any cult that claims that status shoo uld all be taxed as corporations are. That way, they can claim expenses, and charitable giving as tax deductions. If they donate all their income then they can claim no income and pay no tax. The main proviso I would add is that all that charitable giving must be made to Australian causes. Just to be sure the money doesn’t duck off to Rome or California to some ‘charity’ that provides no benefit to the Australian public.

    • IMHO says:

      08:40pm | 02/07/10

      Er…“if the Church of Scientology has nothing to fear from a public benefit test”, then why resist its implementation? Your reasoning is flawed in this respect?

    • DD Ball says:

      10:32pm | 02/07/10

      Scientology has to go. I believe it only exists for its tax status as a religion. However, I am concerned that legitimate religion will miss out on valuable things because of what we need to do to remove scientology.

    • Rob says:

      09:30am | 03/07/10

      Some maybe missing the point of this Bill slightly. It is a measure of public benefit. Think what you may of the catholic church but I don’t see many soup kitchens, homeless shelters and aid programs run by the Scientologists or the Brotherhood. These are closed organisations which benefit those who are paid members so should they get tax free? my heath club certainly isn’t…

    • Andrew says:

      06:02pm | 03/07/10

      Well I am not sure if you are talking from experience as a scientologist, but I am a former member of the elite Scientology upper level service delivery and has been there working for over 6 years.  My wife and I both worked there and we no longer work there as we had our beautiful daughter and my wife is a full time mother now.  I personally worked in the community to rehab over 500 drug addicts and reform countless criminals for the justice system through prisons in NSW.  I trained kids who could not study on the basics of study and funnily enough as a by product resolved their so called “Learning Disorders”.  The church paid for everything so we could do this work full time.  They paid my food, rent, transport, bills, and any expenses that I needed in order to get results in my community work.  I work hand in hand with the NSW police as a youth advisor for them and all supported by the church.  The drug addicts who’s lives I saved and those who’s lives are being salvaged from real life issues would be more than happy to testify.  I am a father and my daughter will grow up in a stable home and be educated in life skills that will keep her life on track thanks for this church.

    • Nick says:

      03:14pm | 03/07/10

      Religion and taxes… hmm. What is religion? It is an effort to understand and explain life. I think it is fairly probable that religious people in Australia commit less crime, less harful acts to society, and likely pay a fuller share of taxes. While it is obviously not always the case, people with religion generally tend to be seen as more trustworhy. Maybe they get ill less too. Of course the unholy might disagree, but if you were to test religious and non-religious people, I think you would find that religious people over a lifetime would consume far less of the tax payer’s money on average. And I believe that is why most societies give religions tax advantages, because they save the community a lot more tax dollars in the long run. In Europe - Germany for example - the government even collects taxes for the religions and gives that money to the religions. Someone would only have to test those on the dole and social security benefits here to see the point. My experience is that religious people are harder workers, and thus likely earn more and pay more taxes anyway. So taxing their religions would be double dipping. No religion can only benefit the individual. All religions help society either directly (better soup kitchens) or indirectly (better citizens) as above. So this proposed law is wrong in my view.

    • James says:

      03:32pm | 03/07/10

      What Scientology has to fear from a public benefit test is not that it will fail because it does not provide a public benefit, but rather that it will not be able to ‘prove’ it’s public benefit.

      As many of you have pointed out above, it is difficult to scientifically prove that Scientology auditing raises IQ, and betters people. Having been a Scientologist for over 20 years, I know it works and I can honestly say it has changed my life for the better. I understand that some have had bad experiences with Scientology, but that has certainly not been my experience. If you could have seen how much we Volunteer Ministers helped the people of Banda Aceh after the tsunami, you too would know Scientology works, and not merely be intellecutalising about it behind the comfort of a computer screen.

      You may say that if it can be proven then it is true. However, it does not follow that if it cannot be proven then it is not true.

      Xenophon of course knows the Church will have difficulty ‘proving’ its public benefit, as all Churches and Charities would, and thus has tactfully shifted the burden onto the Churches and Charities to prove their public benefit. The difficulty in proving the satisfaction of this broad, subjective test to the satisfaction of a dispassionate government beaurocrat could wipe out many charities and Churches overnight and is the equivalent of taking a sledgehammer to an ants’ nest to kill one ant.

    • Kevin Bloody Mackey says:

      12:28pm | 05/07/10

      This is not true James, many churches and charities will have no problem in surviving a benefit/harm test. The fact is the Cof$ has perpetrated a great deal of harm and the testimony is there for anyone who would care to look.

      I understand that those within the “church” won’t be able to see this easily and that there is a pat internal answer for each allegation of abuse, fraud, deceipt and coersion. The problem with those answers is that they don’t ring true to a person, unless they are drinking the CofS brand of kool aide.

      Suck it up James, your churches behaviour is about to experience a great deal of public scrutiny.

    • James says:

      06:24pm | 05/07/10

      Public scrutiny of the Church is not the problem here Kevin. The real issue is that this public benefit test could be used as a tool to silence any minority religion or non-profit group with views contrary to those in power.

      On your reasoning, any group which has had a few fools allegedly acting contrary to the law should have its tax exemption revoked. However, the actions a few acting on a frolic of their own cannot reflect on the goals and actions of an entire group. I am sure that in your experience as a Scientologist, you saw a great many people helping others and I would like to think that you saw this more than anything which could be considered an abuse. Why else would you have stayed in for so long?

      I do of course respect your view on this, but I too have a view on the public benefit of my religion and will continue slamming down my chosen brand of kool aide while I stand up for the rights of minority groups everywhere.

    • Kevin Bloody Mackey says:

      09:24am | 06/07/10

      James, It is not the actions of a ‘few fools’ that the matter rests.

      When I was a Scio I, like you, was not aware of the systematic abuse within the CofS. “Victim” is a dirty word and any who might be in a position to expose abuse was silenced as a PTS, motivatory entheta trouble maker. I didn’t see the sheer volume when I was in as you don’t now.

      I think if you looked you would be horrified as is the Australian Senate.

      Why did I stay so long? The promised state of OT was always ahead, something for which we all strived, and I’m stubborn, who’da thought that despite the promises made in 1952 there is not a single OT made by the CofS?

    • James says:

      04:48am | 07/07/10

      In my experience the administrative policies on which the Church operates have been highly workable and intended to maintain an ethical, pro-survival environment. If you have personally experienced some tough times in Scientology, I can only assume that this has been caused by the misapplication of these policies by individual members, who have more likely than not now left the Church anyway. The vast majority of those within the Church work exceedingly hard to ensure these policies are implemented properly to create a safe environment and therefore it must be only the minority who have implemented them incorrectly.

      I don’t know how long ago you left the Church Kevin, but I have found the activities of my local Church to be truly very safe and enjoyable to participate in. I have not witnessed any ‘abuse’ as you call it, and your allegation of systemic abuse is so far away from my and my families experience that I really cannot relate to your conclusion at all.

      You say that not a single OT has been created. However, not all OT levels have even been released yet and Ron only set out to lay down the ‘pathway’ to OT. I am not sure how much training you have done in the technology of Scientology, but this pathway cannot be walked merely by sitting in an auditing chair engaging in interesting conversation, but must be lived and breathed through actual action every day. I am not sure how you consider pushing for the revocation of the Church’s tax exemption is going to assist more people to follow this pathway to total freedom. Would this tax exemption revocation not impede the attainment of this spiritual freedom and thereby act contrary to the benefit of the public?

    • xyz says:

      12:24pm | 07/07/10

      James, you said “Would this tax exemption revocation not impede the attainment of this spiritual freedom and thereby act contrary to the benefit of the public? “

      With respect, what public benefit will be gained by your personal benefit? Given that the majority of people in the world will never join your organisation, that’s a very selfish argument you have just put forward for keeping a tax exemption at the expense of the Australian public.

    • Kevin Bloody Mackey says:

      09:38pm | 07/07/10

      James, You forgot to say I had misunderstood words. Your argument is become limp mate. I left while on OT VII in 2008, my wife had just completed the level. You can read my story here; http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=7524

      The churches administration is a disaster James, have you ever worked in an org? How was the pay?, The hours? The work conditions? Was the org able to pay it’s wasy without donations?

      Have you ever benn locked into a reg event, all night until everyone gave up all their money for the IAS or an idle (ideal) org? Have you ever been hounded to let your kids join the Sea Org?

      Very safe environment James…...

      Btw, Scientology does not sell spiritual freedom, please demonstrate otherwise!

    • James says:

      03:28am | 08/07/10

      No doubt it is tough being a Scientologist Kevin. The long hours, the low pay, donating to numerous activities, sea org recruiters, etc. But I would not expect anything less from a group which is solely dedicated to the betterment of mankind and knows what it actually takes to reach a goal of such great magnitude. I consider it an honor to be in the presence of such truly wonderful, dedicated people and I never feel safer than when I am with them.

      I don’t doubt you had some tough times Kevin, but in your own words “suck it up” and for goodness sake find something more productive to do with your time.

    • Kevin Bloody Mackey says:

      09:16am | 08/07/10

      There is no doubt there are many truly good people in the CofS, all with the best intentions, unfortunately the church has in the last 60 years benefitted it’s own financial position and balance sheet. As for benefitting mankind, I have not seen them benefit their own staff or public, no kidding.

      Did you know that soliciting donations is contrary to even Hubbad’s advice? The problem is that so few people want to buy his brand of freedom that the empire would colapse from the outer orgs in unless they harvest their public in violation to their own policy.

      As for doing something productive, well, I’m exposing a fraud that has been so well hidden that it’s invisible right under the noses of faithful.

      Mankind needs and wants Scientology like a canary needs tits.

    • xyz says:

      10:05am | 08/07/10

      James, I can see the public benefit from other religious organisations such as the Salvation Army, World Vision (a Catholic charity), St Vinnies (another Catholic charity), the Brotherhood of St Laurence (an Anglican charity)... to name a few.

      I have never seen any evidence of any public benefit from the Cof$. All I see is cold, hard soliciting on the streets to recruit paying members to your organisation. I have no idea how the Cof$ conned the ATO into thinking it was a genuine religion or charity. You must have some very clever spin-doctors and lawyers working there. What a sham!

      PS Sorry… I’m not directing this at you personally, James, as I understand that you are probably genuinely trying to do your best (for yourself?)... it’s just that you are brainwashed and can’t see the big picture… as those outside can clearly see.

    • James says:

      05:59am | 09/07/10

      I have read your story Kevin and have no objection to your choice to leave the Church as this is very much a personal decision.

      With respect, your version of events is very different from mine. My life has dramatically improved by using the technology taught to me on numerous courses run by my local church. I can particularly relate to your wins on the study technology and this tech is something I am very passionate about.

      I am going to continue supporting my church for the long run and ensure that I use its technology to help as many people as I can. Where I find errors are being made, I will continue to work towards their correction so as to build what I believe will ultimately be a saner world.

      If you did not find spiritual truth in Scientology, I hope you find something that is true for you.

    • Kevin Bloody Mackey says:

      09:12am | 09/07/10

      James, Thank you for reading my story. There are wins in Scientology particularly in the beginning, the thing is that those wins do not justify the abuses perpetrated by corporate Scn.

      If you want to follow Scientology, Marty Rathbun Mike Rinder, Dan Koon and hundreds of former int base staff are trying to ensure the tech is preserved in an environment without disconnection, enforced abortions or fraud. They are Independant Scientologists.

      If on the other hand you do in fact want to handle the outnesses from within I suggest the following;

      1. Find the gratest departure you can from LRH policy.
      2. Report it and insist it gets handled, don’t let anyone fob you off.
      3.Observe what happens
      4.If you have any trepidation about actually doing 2 above then I suggest you already know what will occur on 3.

      Good luck

    • Linda Vij says:

      04:59pm | 03/07/10

      The UK Charity Commission has made a bureacratic nighmare for most charities and religious schools. Yet research notes churches do welfare work for about a third of the cost of governments.

      The proposed bill isn’t about sustainable taxation. It’s to selectively squash minority religions. I note pro-bill submissions to parliament contain much hysteria on “cults”. Cult Aware’s definition of “cult” would make the Maoists, Russian Communists and CIA the world’s most grim “cults’ over the last 50 years yet none of these are on their “cult” list.

      When a firebrand politician deems a minority religion a “cult” the media typically fails to publicize any of the targetted group’s good works or give them right to any uncensored or pre-considered reply. it stinks.

      Oversease experience shows it opens the door to abhorrent abuse of the target group. The American based group, the Cult Awareness Network (CAN) stirred up trouble by illegally kidnapping members of the sect that US authorities smashed at Waco. Some people see the 75 deaths as a sad accident. I see it as murder or at least great negligence (authorites allowed flame throwers).

      An “advisor” to US authorities, CAN was later banned as a criminal group (with heads given long jail terms for kidnapping, violent assault, robbery and rape, etc).  Members of various churches, including the Unification Church, suffered dreadfully at their hands. Some military personnel say the precision of the supposed suicide of some 900 people at Jonestown (without a single escapee) points the work of the CIA or a similar body. We’ll probably never know. The Aum sect is presented as a religion gone mad but psychiatrists in the sect gave followers heavy doses of psychotropics that induce psychosis. Two years ago, US authorities raided a polygamous Mormon sect (on the basis of underage “wives”) and detained mature mothers. Some were separated from their infants for months and very traumatised thereby. They say “where there’s smoke there’s fire” but what if it’s arson?

      Scientology is keenly involved in mental health reform, including scrutiny of mental health legislation. It opposes drugging of kids for “ADHD” (so do many “alternative” medical practitioners but they often feel vulnerable about speaking out against the big drug companies and their allies in the establishment, and given what Scientology cops for it, no wonder).

      I will always be grateful for Scientologists’ help in exposing the horrible abuse my mother and others suffered at Chelmsford Private Hospital (where a Royal Commission ultimately confirmed 48 direct deaths). The Church of Scientology and its members are actively involved in drug education and rehabilitation programs, literacy programs, outreach programs to the indigenous, managed recovery from physical and mental trauma, and disaster relief, etc. Giving sanitary pads and blankets is as useful as soup kitchens.

      The Australian Taxation Office has expressed grave doubts about the role the bill would require in its staff in having to make value judgements about public benefit and the validity of religions.

      The answer to twisted politicians and their allies making unsubstanttiated allegations against religious and ethnic minorities (and possibly not being straight about their own agendas) is to uphold the impartiality of the police and courts, and respect their role in ensuring equality before the law. We must shun legislation any legilsation, such as this proposed bill, which would try to thwart guarantees of religious freedom and freedom of association held under the Australian Consitution and the common law.

    • Kevin Bloody Mackey says:

      10:45am | 06/07/10

      Linda, I’d like to take up you assertation of “Scientology is keenly involved in mental health reform, including scrutiny of mental health legislation”.

      In my time as a Scientologist I saw more than 12 Scientology public go spectaculary insane, this was in Australia alone and in a community of less than 2500 Scientologist in the whole country. There were many more. There are also several Solo Nots public that have suicided, Greg Bashaw and as recently as last October Steve Brackett threw himself off a freeway bridge days before he was due to go to Flag.

      Just a month later Rex Fowler was charged with first degree muder in Denver. Rex was currently on OTVII. Apparently he turned the gun on himself after allegedly shooting Thomas Cianco three times in the head. Rex recovered, Thomas didn’t.

      What mental health reforms do you have in mind for these?

    • Anthony says:

      01:06am | 04/07/10

      Does anyone have any doubt about Xenophon’s real motive in introducing this bill and inquiry? He has already publicly attacked the Church of Scientology protected by parliamentary privilege. Why did he not meet with Church officials when requested by them to do so at the time? Why did he not reply to my e-mail and many other Scientologists at that time? Does he really have any interest in the good works the Church has done and and the large number of ethical, honest, law-abiding Scientologists who lives have improved for the better by learning and using Scientology in their lives.
      Even those disaffected former Scientologists who spoke out against the Church at Parliament House last Monday received personal benefits from Scientology in the past. I know 4 of them personally and know this to be true. In fact, they were all asked when completing a Scientology service whether they would like others to have the same wins or knowledge they have now achieved and they all said Yes. This is on written record.
      How many of those posting comments on this site have actually read any Scientology books or done any courses and how many are writing from prejudice or bigotry based on second or third hand information and unverified sources? How many have taken the time to look at the official Scientology site?: http://www.scientology.org
      How many Catholics or Muslims or Jews or Buddists or Hindus would tolerate the trial by media that Scientology has undergone for several months?
      Why not investigate the really rotten spots of society and allocate funds to programs that reverse this decline, using workable solutions that produce positive results, not programs that have this apparency and result in worsened conditions.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      11:36am | 04/07/10

      I’ve read Battlefield Earth which was a crap Sci-Fi novel and an even worse film. Does this count?

    • Raelene says:

      09:22pm | 10/07/10

      Anthony, it is untrue that Xenophon declined an invitation to meet with the CoS to discuss the allegations that he was going to raise in Parliament. The CoS had no idea that those allegations were going to be raised in Parliament. This was necessary in order to maintain parliamentary privilege.

      Many months earlier, Nick X made one comment about the CoS and its tax status on a current affairs program. The CoS did ask him to meet with them then, but it wasn’t a priority for him (he had not been made aware of the alleged abuses then). The CoS spokespeople have been fudging the truth by saying that Nick declined to meet with them at the time of his address to the Senate.

    • Peter says:

      09:55am | 04/07/10

      To Grendel: I was in Haiti working as a Volunteer Minister from February till May and can tell you from first hand experience that your statements are not true.
      We were directly giving help to the people in organizing distribution of food and water, bringing in medical supplies and helping out in the IDP [Internally Displaced Persons] camps plus assisting orphanages.
      The Church chartered a ship to bring food,medical equipment, even an ambulance to Haiti .
      One team completely rebuilt a medical clinic which had been damaged in the earthquake. It took them weeks of back-breaking hard physical work in the tropical heat but they did it because they wanted to help.
      We have 2 volunteers who work permanently in the operating theatre at the Project Medishare / University of Miami Hospital in Port Au Prince.
      You should contact them and ask them what they think of our help to the hospital.
      I never saw anyone recieve auditing in the time I was there; I did see a lot of dedicated volunteers working hard in incredibly dirty, hot and unsanitary conditions.
      Where were you when the help was needed ?

      You say the people thought we were wierd; I never heard anything but ‘thank you ’ and ‘God bless you ’ from so many.
      You talk about Voodoo: did you know the head of the Voodoo religion is totally supportive of the Volunteer Ministers and gave us direct help and assistance in liaising with the authorities there ?
      Sorry Grendel, your ‘facts’ just aren’t so.
      This from one who has been there and has helped.

    • Katie says:

      10:34am | 04/07/10

      Thank you, Senator, from the bottom of my heart.

    • FTS says:

      11:09am | 04/07/10

      Anthony I speak from 40 years experience of scientology including the social reform area. The only actions I saw that could in any way be called charitable came from individuals with good intentions who were pointed in a direction and told “make it go right” on their own. Then whatever they achieved was used for PR purposes and trumpeted to the world as achievements of “the church”. The harm caused by scientology I have both experienced and seen caused to other people is almost beyond belief, and this harm continues to this day. I hope one day you can see beyond the bubble and view the world without the scientology blinkers that are so skillfully instilled over years of indoctrination. Senator Xenophon cares about individuals and his efforts to bring to light hidden abuses wherever they are is greatly appreciated.

    • R. Hill says:

      11:18am | 04/07/10

      Anthony says: “In fact, they were all asked when completing a Scientology service whether they would like others to have the same wins or knowledge they have now achieved and they all said Yes. This is on written record.”

      Given that Scientology recruiters are paid a cut of what recruits spend on Scientology services and materials, I can see why Scientologists wiould be happy to see others “win” with Scientology courses and materials.

      Consider:

      “The church gives its proselytizers 10 to 15 percent of what newcomers ‘donate’ for church services, such as the process called auditing that tells how far from salvation the newcomer is. That means the top pitchman in the 1990s, identified only as Barry Klein, drummed up more than $1.3-million for Scientology each year.”—- “Scientologists profit from new members”, Oct. 1993, St. Petersburg Times

      And about the “good work”, you probably refer to front groups such as Applied Scholastics, Narconon, Criminon, The Way to Happiness,  etc. All these are under Scientology’s ABLE, and just in 2003, ABLE funneled north of $22 million to Church of Scientology International (through a subsidiary), and that’s not counting the income from books and materials and royalties through Bridge Publications and/or CST.

      One Narconon recruiter even referred to the countless blogs pitching Narconon as “money machines” (again because of the commissions, just like Scientology recruiters…)

    • Venise Alstergren says:

      06:19pm | 04/07/10

      TRUE OZ: Seldom have you uttered a truer word “But make sure any legislation targets all of the other purveyors of superstition, stupidity and lies - with the mainstream churches at the top of the list.”

      Apart from the unfortunate people who are brought up in a religion, and are so brain-washed they can’t think, I’m appalled by the numbers of people who are happy to throw logic, reason and self-belief out the nearest window. Prior to embracing the idea that there is a god on a misty mountain-top who listens to every individual person, and he speaks all those amazing languages, the better to understand what each individual is saying to him. All of this, together with his overseeing the unimaginable goings on in our solar system, as well as the approximately one million other solar systems.

      As for the garbage of the holy trinity, where each person is the son of, the father of, the existential inner being of, etc etc etc.

      The astonishing acceptance of miracles written from two to seven thousand years ago by illiterate shepherds, and translated into book form by semi-literate scribes.

      Jesus comes across a mendicant who is blind. Suddenly the man can see again. This is a miracle?

      A true miracle would have involved Jesus removing the causes of blindness altogether.

      Piteous belief in unprovable fairy stories bound up and made into the bible. Which we are meant to believe the most dire criminal and psychopath will tell the truth, if their hand is on it.

    • xyz says:

      08:00pm | 04/07/10

      I applaud your efforts Senator Xenophon, however I think as well as removing tax exempt status from Scientology because they are legally registered as a ‘religion’, we should also remove their ability to pretend they are a charity, as they will stop at nothing to make more money… that’s the only reason L Ron Hubbard started this sham in the first place!

    • Space Invaders FTW says:

      09:03am | 05/07/10

      I find Scientology to be a bit of a laugh, simmilar to hardcore Star Trek fans and their infatuation with Kling-ons and Captain Kirk.  But so help me God if they pay less tax than me!!!

    • Jon says:

      09:20am | 05/07/10

      If we start looking at Scientology we will have look at all the other so-called religions. The only difference between Mohammed and Ron L Hubbard is time.

    • JEBUS says:

      10:09am | 05/07/10

      The same can be said about Christianity.

    • Jon says:

      10:21am | 05/07/10

      Yes, the different is the Mohammed and Ron L Hubbard that they were real people. There isn’t a shred of evidence that Jesus ever existed at all, while there is a mountain of evidence that he was merely a knock off Egyptian God Osiris.

    • Torch8008 says:

      05:11pm | 05/07/10

      From the ATO.gov.au website - What is a charity?
      A charity is an entity established for altruistic purposes that the law regards as charitable. The Tax Office does not set the criteria to decide whether or not an organisation is a charity. Criteria for deciding what is a charity have been established by case law.

      Charities include most religious institutions, aged persons homes, homeless hostels, organisations relieving the special needs of people with disabilities and societies that promote the fine arts.

      The characteristics of a charity are:

      it is an entity that is also a trust fund or an institution
      it exists for the public benefit or the relief of poverty
      its purposes are charitable within the legal sense of that term
      it is non-profit, and
      its sole purpose is charitable.

    • Mike King says:

      06:34pm | 05/07/10

      I came to Scientology in 1997 as a Christian and at that time I believed in God and Jesus.

      I still today carry the same belief of our Lord, his son and of the miracle of life.

      I have since 1997 been a Scientologist and have been helped in so many ways. I have also been able to help so many people around me with a confidence of man as a spirit and to treat him as such.

      Why my church has now become a target of certain politicians would remain a mystery for me if I were so naive to think that they worked for the men and women of this country. But there seems to be something behind their motive that just doesn’t quite add up.

      The Church of Scientology is a religion and respects the rights of man. We openly oppose violations in Human Rights and work diligently to expose and do something about this in our world.

      As Helena Roosevelt stated with the forming of our Declaration of Human Right right after the atrocities of WWII. “Human Rights start in the home.” What we are seeing is a direct attack against yours and mine Human Right. If you don’t know your Human Rights, Look them up. Read them. Know them. http://www.youthforhumanrights.org

      With a foundation of such truth, it is so easy to see right through the lies of the politicians and media on this and so many other “fronts”.

      My name is Michael King. I beleive in God and I am a Scientologist.

      Warmly, Mike King.

    • Baal says:

      01:12pm | 07/07/10

      Dear Mike
      Your churches treatment of Queers like me is a direct violation of Human Rights. Please go on and justify treating my indentity like a disease

    • Luke says:

      12:13am | 08/02/11

      Baal… homos to scientology are ppl with past lives of the opposite sex… not a disease…
      Research something before you say things like that…

    • The Civet says:

      06:43pm | 05/07/10

      Does anyone on this post know the reason why Catholic schools get the greatest subsidy of the tax payers’ money, after private schools?

    • Venise says: says:

      07:01pm | 05/07/10

      How can such a crackpot cult like scientology ever have been allowed to be accepted as a religion to anyone who isn’t terminally stupid?

      And why, oh why does the Oz taxpayer have to foot the bill for the greatest load of garbage ever to have been foisted on the electorate?

      It is an American cult organisation, and even my spell checker underlines the word scientology (as being spelled wrong, because I refuse to give it credence by starting the word with a capital letter)

    • julia says:

      07:51pm | 07/07/10

      I read the Punch article “Time is runningout for the Church of Scientology”.

      I was at the hearing in the Parliament House last Monday and tuesday. I was shocked by what was written in the article, as so many things have been twisted in the article.

      First of all, the inquiry is not into Scientology. It is a Tax Bill inquiry and a discriminatory to single out one group in a government bill. This kind of action has never been and should not be tolerated in the Australian government.

      At the hearings and in the media, a former Scientologist Ms.Janetter Vonthenthoff has made an allegation that she was coerced into having an abortion. How does she explain the conflicting fact that she has 3 kids and 2 of them were born while she was on staff at the Canberra Church ? She had a maternity leave and there was sufficient care by the Church for her pregnancy to my knowledge.

      It simply astounds me that this kind of baseless allegations can pass as a fact. Anyone who has been on staff at a Scientology Church and had a baby (there’s alot of them !) or has seen others having babies instantly knows that she is lying.

      When i was in Canberra during the hearing, I personally invited Nick Xenophon to come and visit a Church of Scientology, since he obviously a lot of concerns about the organization and he should obtain information from the Church, many of which are readily available.

      Surprisingly, Senator Xenophon said that he didn’t have time for that - he said, “time is my enemy”. However, he clearly has time to meet with former Scientologist and he has time to go on radio to negatively talk about Scientology, but of course he has not ime to speak to a Scientologist.

      Although he invited 6 former Scientologist to the public hearings for the Tax Bill, including one from the US, no Sceintology parishoners were invited. There were no former Catholics of former Muslim, but 6 former Scientologist.

      This is clearly discriminatory in my view and Australia should not tolerate this kind of bigotry - certainly not in the Senate.

      Just as a note, the former Scientologist from the US whom Senator Xenophon invited to the hearings is a member of Anonymous, a collective group that has attacked the Australian government website this year.

      I have been a Scientologist for 25 years and have been nothing that was said by the former of Scientologist within the Church. As a matter of fact, I have seen quite opposite. For sure we do donate money to the Church as a parishioner - but with a lot of satisfaction as I have seen people’s lives literally saved.

      And for those who say it is not true, it is easy enough to find people who will happily and publicly talk about the positive effects Scientology had in their lives.

      Why doesn’t Senator Xenophon talk to any of Scientologist if he is after facts and truth ? That is a question that needs to be answered by the Senator.

    • xyz says:

      12:35am | 08/07/10

      Julia, you ask “Why doesn’t Senator Xenophon talk to any of (sic)Scientologist if he is after facts and truth ?”.

      The answer to your question is this:

      The reason is that current members appear to be brainwashed, and the management at the top appear to be accomplished liars (e.g. the recent New Zealand Charities Commission fiasco). No-one trusts your organisation to be open and to tell the truth. You appear to be very secretive… and you seem to spend most of your time and money on sueing individuals and governments who disagree with you.

      Am I wrong?

    • Luke says:

      07:46pm | 27/04/11

      Scientologists are secretive… those who investigate them are… cause they have had egg on thier face too many times…

    • Luke says:

      07:47pm | 27/04/11

      Scientologists arent secretive… those who investigate them are… cause they have had egg on thier face too many times…
      Scientologists arent brainwashed…. their critics are… they refuse to do anything but listen to heresay via the internet

    • Alanzo says:

      12:52pm | 08/07/10

      As an American watching all this, and as an Ex-Scientologist, the revelation I’ve received is that all you have to do is believe in something supernatural, and you don’t have to pay taxes! It’s always been that way, but I’d never actually seen it until I watched these hearings. I believe that a Public Benefit Test *is* the fair way to decide who gets tax exemption and who doesn’t. It’s brilliant, actually. I just can’t believe that Americans didn’t think of it first!

    • Brian says:

      02:41pm | 08/07/10

      So Mr Xenophon, you managed to get the same 5 whole people to testify at your witch hunt, a whole 5 people, you’re kidding me.  Unfortunately I was working in my business, keeping my employees working, providing a service for my public, putting my kids through school and uni, providing earnings for the government to tax, providing a stable home for my wife and kids to springboard out to a happy and productive life, otherwise I would have been at your “inquiry” to voice my support for Scientology and all it has done for me and my family over these many years along with many of my Scientology friends.

      I believe in what works out in my world, no more and no less, I did this before I got into Scientology and what I found when I got into Scientology is that there is a hell of a lot of it that works and that has worked for me. But not just me I have seen it work for a lot of people otherwise I wouldn’t class myself as a Scientologist or defend it so vigorously.  Right now one of my kids is doing a course and has been for a couple of months.  It cost around $500.  I have never seen her so happy, confident or self assured and at the same time compassionate to others! That course is a bargain!  There is no-one who could tell me white is black, and tell me that this kid is not going to go out and do some good in this world to whatever her abilities will turn out to be.

      The public benefit of and from Scientology is very plain to those who wish to look at the truth of the matter.  In fact these sorts of attacks are so passé,  its time the facts of the workability of Scientology are allowed to be made known so we can have kids who can study, criminals really rehabilitated, drugs addicts leading the lives they really want, happier marriages etc, etc.  These are some of the goals L. Ron Hubbard delineated many times, through his dozens of books and 1000s of lectures. It’s really not that hard to find and discover you just need to look.  Mr Xenophon, the only downfall for the well monied vested interests is that the use of drugs, whether street or “legal” will be found to not be as necessary. Is that so bad? Maybe they can then get themselves an honest job.  Five people——- really!

    • Kevin Bloody Mackey says:

      09:12pm | 08/07/10

      Brian, all of the five people who were asked to testify have jobs or run their own businesses, what’s your point?.

      Did you know they chose five of us among hundreds of those that sent submissions? I guess not. But they didn’t have time to hear from all of the ex scientologists who had suffered at the hands of the Cof$.

      As for criminals rehabilitated, you really have no idea of what has been going on at the Int base in Hemut, but I’ll leave you with this ‘win’ from a Scientologist who wrote;

      “I’m not angry anymore, as more and more people rediscover their true selves through Scientology, together we WILL achieve a world without war, crime, and insanity.” Rex Fowler, OTVII, before allegedly shooting his ex-partner three times in the head and then himself under the chin.

      You really need to take a good hard look at your “church”

    • Alanzo says:

      12:24am | 09/07/10

      Responsible Scientologists know why the government is getting involved in handling Scientology now - because the Church can not keep its own ethics in.

      David Miscavige, the head of the Church of Scientology, routinely beats his staff members. And yet not one Scientologist has ever called the police on him. Coerced abortions are common. Covering up of sexual abuse is also common. Bankrupting people, false imprisonment in the Sea Org, Fair game of those who speak out - all common throughout the world as a result of Scientology’s tech and policies.

      It should be clear to responsible Scientologists that Scientologists can not be trusted to police themselves, and to refrain from abusing people. So now it is time for the government to step in and do it for them. High time.

      It’s as simple as that.

      I hope to see some of the innovative ways that the Australian government is using to get Scientology’s ethics in in Australia used in the United States. I say, keep up the great work, Aussies. You are a credit to your hemisphere!

      Alanzo

    • Ranzo says:

      02:19pm | 09/07/10

      A tax on Australians to stop them believing what they want to believe is the best thing yet.

    • Liesl says:

      09:35pm | 10/07/10

      Ranzo, paying tax doesn’t stop a person believing in what they choose to believe!

    • Once Bitten says:

      06:44pm | 09/07/10

      As a former scientologist living in New Zealand, I cringed when I heard Mike Ferriss, New Zealand ‘secretary’ for the church of scientology get caught for pulling the wool over the eyes of the NZ Charities Commission.  The new laws were supposed to make the whole process transparent, yet the CofS in NZ managed to ‘lose’ $3million and put this loss down to ‘exchange losses’.  Without the scrutiny by the Australian Inquiry, this discrepancy would have gone unnoticed, and the cofs would have got away with it, yet again.  Now they have to explain themselves as questions are being asked.  So, thank you Australia, and thank you Nick Xenophon, and thank you New Zealand for having put this law in place in 2008.  It’s very obvious that Australia also needs these laws to keep the Australian CofS honest, as nothing else seems to.

      I don’t doubt that some people have benefits from what they learn from their courses and auditing, but let all the money side of it be above board, honest and transparent. 

      It’s also obvious that the ‘benefits’ of the CofS are only for those within the church, therefore it’s not a charity.  As it runs as a business, it should be taxed.  That’s all this is about.

    • Wearne says:

      04:24pm | 10/07/10

      Senator - you forgot to mention how the Church’s legal representative admonished you for your unconstitutional statements, and flagrant disregard for the High Court of Australia’s ruling. No one, least of all you, was laughing then.

    • Kevin Bloody Mackey says:

      07:26am | 11/07/10

      Sigh, That’s not quite the correct take on it Wearnie.

      She was not correct in her assessment, it would seem that her brief was too “always attack, never defend” and she had to invent some grounds on which to attack. I guess if I was A Scientologist I too would buy OSAs spin on how “we put ethics in on the Polly funded by big pharma”.

      She was made a fool of by her brief and the CofS team ended up conceding that a public benefits test based on the NZ charities commission model would not be a problem to them.

      Which was the exact opposite position that they went in with.

      Oh yeah, and there was much mirth about that.

    • Luke says:

      02:51pm | 04/03/12

      Nice irrelevant statement there Kevin…
      The reality is Xenophon has folded on this issue because of his statements proven to be what they were by Scientology making the complaint they did make
      Now the whole issue is out of his hands… he could have done more damage had he not been so prejudice in his speech…
      He relied too heavily on police investigations which all resulted in no charges against the church, proof that one should check their facts before going in with your guns blazing…

    • Linda Vij says:

      01:06pm | 12/07/10

      Bitter and twisted comments made under cover of support for a public benefits test for religions, highlights prudence of preserving the common law rule of natural but rebuttable assumption of the benefits of religion. They also show the need for fair tolerance of religious and cultural diversity.

      However, there are many, many people of good will in 21st century Australia. This month, the Sikh community secured the hall of a Christian church to celebrate the consecration of a new Sikh temple in Sydney (a temporary landscaping issue restricted the actual consecration of the temple at Turramurra to a small gathering).  And Sydney teenagers (of various religious backgrounds, including my son and his mate) worked hard to install tanks in a Catholic village in Peru.

      Senator Xenophon’s campaign has taken on an Alice In Wonderland flavor. Video footage of him at the parliamentary hearing into the public benefits test shows him baiting a church representative with degrading questions, that implied that if she wanted religious freedom, she had to support human or animal sacrifices being allowed (as she noted, these are clearly illegal acts). He also refused meetings with Scientologists on the basis of being short of time due to impending elections, though no date has been named and he is supposedly not intending to contest them.
      About the stoush between Scientology and Big Pharma, I note the Scientology sponsored group, the Citizens’ Committee On Human Rights (CCHR) and its volunteers, have devoted large chunks of time in Australia to researching and analyzing mental health and allied legislation in terms of adherence to basic human rights, and also patient data and range of treatment options available. They have made many submissions to authorities about their findings. It is confronting and painstaking. CCHR has given key aid to projects in many countries, including:

      1. Australia/Japan, exposing Deep Sleep (a state Royal Commission found 48 direct deaths in NSW)
      2. In NSW, Australia, lobbying to stop laws defining mental illness and forced treatments in terms of cultural or religious affiliation or sexual orientation.
      3. In NSW, Australia, lobbying to have psychosurgery banned (NSW banned it in 2008)
      4.New Zealand, exposing sexual abuse and punitive electroshock to children at Lake Alice Hospital
      5.USA, exposing and closing hospitals with forced treatments as insurance fraud and enacting laws in some states to restore neutrality of schools
      6.South America, exposing murder of patients for organs
      7.South Africa, exposing a psychiatric native labor camp with punitive electroshock
      8.Russian Federation, restoring citizenship rights, such as right to work, rent property or access courts, for those with psychiatric records (including political diagnoses under communism)
      9.Sweden, exposing wholesale psychiatric “euthanasia” from the 1960’s
      10. Italy, closing 96 unfit asylums and rehabilitating inmates
      11. Romania, detailing abuse in orphanages

      Human rights remain a major issue locally, for instance, NSW has made moves to have patients appealing forced treatment, being restricted to a video appearance, after having to wait a whole month while heavily drugged. This effectively makes patients non-persons. The Victorian government wants to omit the usual step of a broad public consultation at the draft stage of new mental health laws, though they would be a culmination of the first major review of Victoria’s mental health laws in over 20 years.

      There is a significant issue with treatment options. The FDA deems shock machines experimental after 70 years of use. But they are deemed “standard medicine” and natural medicine in psychiatry is deemed “fringe” e.g. Australia largely ignores the good work of psychiatrists at Sweden’s Karolinska Institute, treating anorexia nervosa as a starvation tipping point, with zinc and other nutrients. And practitioners of natural medicine and nutrition who quietly offer alternatives to the standard Drug and Diagnose model usually don’t speak too loud for fear of the establishment.
      Many patients and their families, including parents with kids deemed ADHD would like natural options, not just psych drugs available on Medicare. Ultimately, a significant number of these kids are found to have complex or serious physical ailments, with nutritional or detoxification regimes often a necessary element to them finally getting well.

      Advocacy group, Insane Australia (a group not in any way related to Scientology) has declared that research now shows some 90 percent of mental patients have treatable physical conditions as the root cause of mental symptoms and I am aware of various studies in the past which put the rate at around half. That Australian authorities have not broadly responded to the findings is a tragedy to thousands and thousands of Australians.

    • Luke says:

      12:24am | 08/02/11

      its been half a year…. melbourne church just opened…
      How much time does scientology have? I forgot…

    • Mr Ed says:

      07:48pm | 27/04/11

      Seems like a bit more time…

 

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