Politics. Religion. Combine the two and the result can be very nasty indeed. Think about a short list: the Crusades, the Inquisition, New York and the twin towers, the Holocaust, massacre of the Huguenots. It appears that when Church and State are combined into one, horrific things can happen.

You see, it says it right here…

Democracies usually separate religion and politics. The 1st Amendment to the American Constitution is absolutely clear: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. This has been interpreted firmly by the Supreme Court, including banning prayers in public schools and state aid to religious schools.

The United Kingdom does have an Established Church, and a requirement that the Monarch must be a member of it. The Australian Constitution, however, (S. 116) states that “The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance …” .

The separation of religion from politics is a formal, and often constitutional statement. But in practical politics, religion (or denomination) does play a role. Political parties sometimes decide that a conscience vote should be available to its members. Such cases usually involve divisive social issues, such as abortion, euthanasia, and same-sex marriage.

The conscience vote is a device to protect the party from internal division. Members with strong religious beliefs will not follow a party line if it offends those beliefs. But there is an issue of representation involved. If the majority of the member’s electorate support, for example, euthanasia, should the member vote on his or her conscience, or on the basis of the conscience of the majority?

In this sense, religion does play a part in Australian politics. But, in terms of law, politics and religion are separated. Australia is a secular polity, where laws are made and applied in an environment which is not subject to, nor bound by, any religion or religious rule. That is, Australia is a democracy.

The opposite is a theocracy. This is a form of government in which the law-makers claim to act on behalf of a deity, and where religious laws are the direct source of political obligations. One of the most obvious in the modern world was Calvin’s rule in Geneva during the Reformation. But there have been plenty of others.

A recent statement to a Commonwealth parliamentary committee by a senior Moslem cleric raised the issue of politics and religion in Australian law. He put the opinion that Australia should accept and include Sharia law. That is, law which is made in accord with the Moslem religion, based on an interpretation of the Koran.

His argument was a clever one. Australia has a commitment to multiculturalism. To Moslems, Sharia law is part of their culture. It follows, according to his argument, that if Australia is committed to multiculturalism, it should, by definition, be committed to Sharia law. 

The Commonwealth government announced immediately that it rejected the proposal, and correctly so. The incorporation of Sharia law, or any other system of law which is fundamentally based on a religion, would offend the Constitution, offend the principles on which our secular society is based, and introduce elements of a theocracy to our way of life.

Moslems, as any other religion in Australia, have a right to exercise their religion as they wish. They can arrange and manage their personal lives in accord with their own conception of their god and his or her precepts.

But when this comes into conflict with the basic principles of Australian lawmaking and laws, rule by a religion should not be tolerated. 

322 comments

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    • Ben says:

      06:08am | 26/05/11

      And hopefully the Catholics realise that this applies equally to them.

      Here’s hoping.

    • Tedd says:

      07:23am | 26/05/11

      Why signal out the Catholics? 

      Many are not fundamentalists and, these days, the proportion that are may be less than in those other christian denominations who seeks to infiltrate government and public education to impose their narrow worldviews on all.

    • acotrel says:

      07:39am | 26/05/11

      It’s not only catholics who want to manipulate and control.  Our largest telecommunications corporation has a management stacked with ‘christian mafia’, not limitted to catholic believers.

    • Frances says:

      08:02am | 26/05/11

      What’s with the digs at Catholics?

    • marley says:

      08:23am | 26/05/11

      What have any of these comments got to do with the imposition of religion-based laws?

    • Tom says:

      08:32am | 26/05/11

      Ben, “Equally”???“Equally”??? ... What stupid, lazy, post-modern “equivalence” drivel. Not too many Catholics hijacking planes, killing 4000 at a time in the name of their God. Not too many Catholics suicide bombing in the name of their God. Pathetic post.

    • acotrel says:

      08:36am | 26/05/11

      @Frances If I was going to become religous, I’d be a catholic.  That’s a REAL religion !

    • anon says:

      08:46am | 26/05/11

      @acotrel, plural corporations

    • Roger Crook says:

      09:03am | 26/05/11

      Why signal (sic) out the Catholics asks, Ted.

      Because they are all left-footers, Ted.

      I thought everyone knew that!

    • acotrel says:

      09:06am | 26/05/11

      @Anon I’m not religous, but I’ve been to the Vatican twice.  It’s really very impressive, and it’s not just the visual.  It’s what it represents!
      ‘render unto Caesar’ ?

    • Rick says:

      09:08am | 26/05/11

      Tom , what about the catholic IRA? not too many I suppose

    • Frances says:

      09:44am | 26/05/11

      @ acotrel. I’m unclear of your point??? I was asking Ben why he’s having a dig at Catholics. PS. I am one!

    • Tchom says:

      10:04am | 26/05/11

      @ Rick. I wish I could hi-5 you right now

    • acotrel says:

      10:15am | 26/05/11

      You’re too touchy, Frances.  Baiting catholics is passe.  We know what you are, and the fact is that most catholics these days, although usually acting in a truly christian way, are not usually ideologues!  Even George Pell is often observed with a jaudiced eye by his followers.

    • Tom says:

      10:25am | 26/05/11

      Rick, perhaps you have different information to me. My understanding is that the IRA did not hijack any plane to fly into buildings and kill 4,000. My understanding is that the IRA did not strap bombs to the backs of youths and send them into wedding celebtations or where hundreds of Australians were having a beer in a pub. I personally have not kept score, but to assert that they are “equivalent” you must have kept score. Figures please, Rick.

      One bombing is too many, that does not make it equivalent 4,000 or 80 or to an indiscriminate killing around the world on a systematic basis. Rick, you “equivalence” peddlers are lazy and dishonest.

    • acotrel says:

      10:28am | 26/05/11

      @Frances About the Vatican - Go there! And while you are there amongst that spendor, think about the kids scavenging for food in the rubbish dumps of the Phillipines.  It’s very difficult to reconcile! I love the Vatican, there is more power there than in all of the Snowy Hydro Scheme or the White House, or the Kremlin, but what does it all mean?

    • Seanr says:

      10:33am | 26/05/11

      @Rick and Tchom, idiots always bring up the ‘Catholic IRA’ as an example of Christian terrorism. Completely ignores that the IRA has never been a Catholic organisation founded to promote the spread of Catholicism worldwide.
      The IRA is a socialist republican organisation trying to bring about a united Ireland, there have been plenty of non Catholic IRA members.

    • acotrel says:

      10:57am | 26/05/11

      I’ll bet Ned Kelly was a catholic!  I wonder if we’ll ever get to see his manifesto which is supposed to be locked up somewhere in Melbourne?

    • slighlty bored says:

      11:12am | 26/05/11

      Wow the 32nd Christian bashing article this week in the news. Congrats on some lazy journalism. Even the athiests are running out of things to say and repeating themselves. What about a new controv. topic this week e.g. bottle feeding, boat people, speed cameras, Shane Warne, to keep the comments flooding in?

    • Tchom says:

      12:02pm | 26/05/11

      @Seanr - And why was Ireland divided in the first place?

    • Frances says:

      12:20pm | 26/05/11

      @ acotrel…oh shining light of Christianity! You’re vitriol and discrimination against Catholics only highlights you’re ineligibility to comment on Christianity due to your obvious lack of and disdain for it. PS. Been to the Vatican and the Philippines and various other places of opulence and extreme desperation…next?

    • Tom says:

      12:46pm | 26/05/11

      @TChom, “why was Ireland divided in the first place”? Political reasons. Sorry to spoil your ignorant rant.

    • Athan Phillips says:

      12:56pm | 26/05/11

      Cause Catholics are Evil..

    • Tom says:

      12:57pm | 26/05/11

      Frances, please don’t accuse acetrol of discrimination with his vitriol at the Catholics. Acetrol, is very generous and wide-reaching with his vitriol. Many institututions receive the benefit. Just don’t mention the “H” word.

    • Seanr says:

      01:23pm | 26/05/11

      @Tchom - why because the Unionists wanted to stay a part of Great Britain rather than join the new Republic. Whilst most Unionists are Protestant and most Nationalists are Catholic, the issues in Ireland have been about land and nationality not religion

    • Bobster says:

      01:51pm | 26/05/11

      Because Catholic factions control the ALP and their beliefs have a strong influence on their politics, ergo Catholics need to realise that their Catholicism should have no bearing whatsoever on their lawmaking.

    • meaning of the vatican? says:

      02:31pm | 26/05/11

      What the vatican is screaming at us acotrel is that it is not following the most basic of biblical principles of not coveting, stealing, no idolatry. No messing around with little kids, that kinda thing. Christians are supposed to follow Jesus. For starters Jesus said to call no-one on earth rabbi or father (pope translates as father) Furthermore Jesus told us not to lay up treasures on earth nor did he himself have a place to lay his head. Wherever he went he healed and preached particularly to the poor and outcasts of society and when he died, his possessions were such that all he left behind was his coat. He walked the talk.
      And the vatican is reflecting this how?

    • Andrew says:

      03:54pm | 26/05/11

      @Tom: The catholic church has killed far, far, far more people by spreading their stupid, ignorant, and misinformed views on contraception than Al Qaeda could ever hope to match.  Millions die of AIDS in Africa each year, and the catholic church spends millions of dollars not to help the problem, but to discourage condom use and thus make it worse.  High-ranking members of the church have actually had the gall to publicly state that condoms are “the cause of such high rates of AIDS” (Archbishop of Kenya, a country in which 1 in 5 people has AIDS).  The catholic church is even actively stopping condom distribution in these poor, disease-ridden countries, effectively condemning entire generations to a slow painful death.  So to answer your question, yes, you really can’t compare the two.  Islamic fundamentalists have killed thousands with terror attacks.  The catholic church, with the superior weapon of ridiculous dogma and billions of dollars, is committing genocide at a rate of millions of deaths per year.  “In the name of god”, naturally.

    • Seanr says:

      04:39pm | 26/05/11

      @Andrew..BWWAHHHH. This thread is great, first an idiotic comment about the IRA, now one about the Catholic Church and contraception.
      1. Not all Africa is Catholic maybe 17% at most (according to Wikipedia), even if you factor in a higher level of influence due to Catholic aid agencies etc, still can’t see how all of Africa is listening to what the Pope says.
      2. The Church teaches abstinence, so what you are expecting me to believe is that people ignore the Church’s teaching on abstinence but follow its teaching on ‘no condoms’..not very logical
      3. “risk compensation” is the reasoning behind the argument that condom use can promote HIV spread, ie that people take on greater risks as they perceive they are protected from danger.

      I’m not a practising Catholic I just don’t like illogical arguments.

    • Barry says:

      04:48pm | 26/05/11

      @Andrew
      Although I’m not catholic, but I just can’t go refuting a biased argument.  Yes, the catholic church is anti-condom.  You may argue this causes more deaths, but this isn’t entirely due to the catholic church, nor is this proven.  The catholic church has always pushed that the most effective method in the battle against HIV is abstinence from sex, or sticking to the parter you are married too.  This is undoubtly a more effective method than condom usage.  Condoms not only have the possibility of breaking, but in the long run, only encourage sexual patterns, which are not in the best interests of the African people (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/27/AR2009032702825.html)  I’m not in favor of their position, but you aren’t thinking about this in a logical manner, probably due to your bias.  Secondly, genocide . . . . please go and have a cold shower, and calm down.  You’re embarrassing yourself now.

    • Frank Zappa says:

      04:56pm | 26/05/11

      Whoever we are, wherever we’re from, we shoulda noticed by now our behaviour is dumb
      And if our chances expect to improve it’s gonna take a lot more than tryin’ to remove the other race or the other whatever from the face of the planet altogether
      They call it “The Earth” which is a dumb kinda name but they named it right ‘cause we behave the same
      We are dumb all over
      Dumb all over, yes we are, dumb all over, near and far, dumb all over, black ‘n white, people, we is not wrapped tight
      And nerds on the left, nerds on the right
      Religious fanatics on the air every night, sayin’ the bible tells the story and makes the details sound real gory about what to do if the geeks over there don’t believe in the book we got over here
      You can’t run a race without no feet
      And pretty soon there won’t be no street for dummies to jog on or doggies to dog on
      Religious fanatics can make it be all gone
      I mean it won’t blow up and disappear, it’ll just look ugly for a thousand years
      You can’t run a country by a book of religion
      Not by a heap or a lump or a smidgeon of foolish rules of ancient date, designed to make you all feel great while you fold, spindle and mutilate those unbelievers from a neighbouring state
      To arms, to arms
      Hooray! That’s great, two legs ain’t bad
      Unless there’s a crate they ship the parts to mama in
      For souvenirs: two ears (Get down)
      Not his, not hers but what the hey
      The good book says, “It’s gotta be that way”
      But their book says, “Revenge the crusades”
      With whips ‘n chains and hand grenades
      Two arms, two arms
      Have another and another
      Our God says, “There ain’t no other”
      Our God says, “It’s all ok”
      Our God says “This is the way”
      It says in the book, “Burn and destroy”
      And repent and redeem and revenge and deploy and rumble thee forth to the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
      ‘Cause they don’t go for what’s in the book and that makes ‘em bad
      So verily we must choppeth them up and stompeth them down
      Or rent a nice French bomb to poof them out of existence while leaving their real estate just where we need it to use again for temples in which to praise our god, ‘cause he can really take care of business
      And when his humble TV servant with humble white hair and humble glasses and a nice brown suit and maybe a blonde wife who takes phone calls, tells us our god says it’s ok to do this stuff, then we gotta do it
      ‘Cause if we don’t do it we ain’t “Gwine up to hebbin”
      Depending on which book you’re using at the time
      Can’t use theirs, it don’t work, it’s all lies, gotta use mine
      Ain’t that right?
      That’s what they say
      Every night, everyday
      Hey, we can’t really be dumb if we’re just following god’s orders
      Well let’s get serious, god knows what he’s doin’
      He wrote this book here and the book says, “He made us all to be just like him”
      So, if we’re dumb, then god is dumb and maybe even a little ugly on the side

    • Tom says:

      05:03pm | 26/05/11

      Andrew, Like Seanr, I am not a Catholic but your comments are just plain stupid. However ridiculous the Catholic church dogma may be and however agonising the suffering of AIDS victims, the Catholic church has close zero impact in those AIDS ravaged countries.

      Your blog reads like you have the figures and a proven causal link on people who would otherwise have worn a condom, could acquire a condom, but did not do so because the Catholic church told them not to.

      Sorry Andrew, ICB (I call bull-shit).

    • Ben says:

      08:25pm | 26/05/11

      @Tedd - apologies, being an atheist I get confused whether the term should be Catholic or Christians sometimes.

      @Tom - thanks for making my point for me.  You think one religion should be exempt because you can quote some extremist examples of another one, how many Muslim clerics have you seen interfering with young boys in our country?

      As for the comments regarding Catholic/religious bashing and what it is all about - why should it stop?  It is apathy towards the negative aspects of religion that will make things worse.  We avoid becoming apathetic by continuing to take an active stance against what we perceive to be wrong.

      Until religion takes it’s place as a hobby activity that does not get favoured within legislation (ie tax exemptions) and is not a requirement for public office in countries like the US, then I think it is reasonable to continue criticising it.

    • Renia Zurawel says:

      10:44pm | 26/05/11

      I can’t believe it!
      There is no way one can separate religion and the society. We have been like that since the dawn of times. And there is nothing wrong with it. There will always be people who believe in God. And many of them will be elected to the government. At least in democracy.
      Karl Marx was quite sure we should separtae church and politics, and
      I suppose many people just copy marxism without giving it a thought.
      Democrats would do better to take some history lessons. The Soviet Union with its atheist leaders killed/ butchered more people than Hitler. Comrade Mao was even better than Stalin and atheist Pol Pot managed to kill half of the population of his own country. We can go on with the list of brave non-believers who tried to revolutionise our world and get rid of religion.. 
      The WWII had nothing to do with religion. Christian Germans attacked Christian European countries, allright.

      In all Commonwealth countries we have religious states. The Queen or King of England, Australia, Canada cannot be ... Catholic.
      The Queen or King of Australia IS a Head of Church!
      And I can see nothing wrong with it. But we should not pretend and try to teach others..
      Otherwise. ..why we supported Muslim Kosovo against Christian Serbia??
      What I am trying to explain is that religion is very often used for political purposes and a great excuse for transgression. If we stuck to Ten Commandments - there would never be any wars…
      And I am sorry to say but Dean Jeansch seems to confuse greed for oil with love for God. There are two different things.
      Even Democrats should remember that Vietnam was not attacked for religious reasons. Quite the opposite. The country was run by very secular leaders..

    • Andrew says:

      11:06pm | 26/05/11

      Wow, such a strong reaction from the catholics and others against a comment that is factually correct.  And now I have to ask - how many of you have actually been to Kenya or any other African country, and seen first hand what is going on?  I have, and it stinks.  There are aid agencies there trying to stop the spread of AIDS, distributing free condoms and trying to educate the people about safe sex, about what AIDS is and how it is transmitted (and how it is and isn’t treatable), and then we have the catholic church which is doing everything in its considerable power to shut these efforts down.  Billboards proclaiming the evils of condoms, quite literally saying “if you wear condoms, you’re going to hell”.

      Abstinence is their solution?  Right, what a great solution - rely on people not to give in to one of the strongest natural urges that humans have, the urge to have sex.  GOOD PLAN!  It doesn’t work in first world countries, it doesn’t even work in the Vatican where people have taken a vow of celibacy, but it will work in Africa?  Yes, I think this is a wonderful, well thought out and logical plan indeed.  And so when people slip up, as they of course will, is there a backup plan?  Nope, sorry.  Abstinence or AIDS, that’s your choice.  It’s like saying “the safest way to avoid being injured in a car crash is to not drive”, which is of course completely true.  But then banning seatbelts, airbags, and every other form of protection that is required for when people WILL get on the road.  It’s idiocy.  Then you have the public talks, where prominent members of the catholic church (and these people have MASSIVE clout in communities, even amongst non-catholics) who are proclaiming things they must know are untrue, things like “Condoms are laced with the HIV virus”, and “the HIV virus is small enough to penetrate condoms” (complete bullshit, naturally), or my personal favourite “prayer will cure AIDS” (of course, not one case of that happening yet).  Yes, I’ve heard it myself, these exact words, over and over.  And the people listening aren’t educated, they don’t have the internet to check any facts, and they believe it.  And they die, millions and millions every single year.  Sure, mock me, but I’ve seen it with my own eyes, and it’s appalling.  And I’ve spoken to hundreds of people with AIDS, men, women, and most sickeningly very young people.  And about 99% of them know nothing about the disease, how it spreads, and how to stop it.  Half don’t even know that condoms offer any protection at all.  Education is the ONLY way this epidemic is going to be stopped, and the catholic church isn’t just trying to stop that process, it’s actively pushing ignorance and plain lies instead.  The “abstinence” solution is a total joke - it’s never worked in the past, it’s not working now, and it will never work in the future, because it goes against primal human instinct.

      Disagree if you want, “call bullshit” from your comfortable couch in suburban Australia, but how about you go and spend a few months in a HIV clinic in Kenya, go listen to the street sermons these “priests” are giving, then tell me what your new opinion is.  Because you really have no idea.

    • DaveinPerth says:

      11:28pm | 26/05/11

      @Andrew - Well said. Spot on.

    • Barry says:

      12:10am | 27/05/11

      @Andrew
      Did you read the newsarticle from my comment?  You probably should since it quite strongly makes your last comment look like a total crock of bullshit.

    • Ben says:

      06:21am | 27/05/11

      @Renia - I’m not suggesting that religion gets separated from society.  I’m suggesting it gets official recognition for what it is - a lifestyle cult - and membership is not a requirement within general society nor does it provide any society wide benefits.

      As for the “Queen or King of Australia” being head of a church… Henry VIII is the reason for that.  Divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived - that’s the outcomes for his wives.  Wanting to bed Anne (his 2nd wife) while still married to his first wife and being unable to get authorisation from the pope was the entire reason for the Church of England existing.  So a Church exists simply because some dude (thinking he had divine right on his side) wanted to get a shag.

      Kings and Queens only exist because of the “divine right” bestowed upon them by some form of religious reference.  And why?  Because centuries ago some military and political agreement decided that “you are the ones god chose”.  Just doesn’t really make sense.

    • acotrel says:

      06:58am | 27/05/11

      @Frances I haven’t said anything vitriolic about catholics.  My wife is a catholic and as a christian she walks the talk.  Do you do that? My only problem with catholic church is its authoritarianism.  I do not recognise the ‘authority of christ’ when it is exercised through a group of old men who’ve never been married, or had the stresses of raising a family or being in a bad relationship with a woman. I doubt their competence, which has never had the benefit of life experience to improve it.

    • andre says:

      08:09am | 27/05/11

      as far as I am concerned the most dangerous , dumb religion that is oficially endorsed and tax supportet in this country is Darwinism.
      Darwinists ,as the others should keep their religion at home, not impose their view on the rest of the society , especially on litte kids at school, and fund their religion and religious research from their own pockets.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      08:50am | 27/05/11

      Acotrel: a socialist worrying about authoritarianism? Now there is clear evidence of leftist cognitive dissonance. It shows the sheer myopic bordering on blind world view of leftists. On one hand they want feedom from authoritarianism and on the other they want material equality. The reality is freedom creates material inequality, the more one rails against material inequality the more authoritarian one becomes. 

      Leftists politics is a bi-polar disorder.

    • Tom says:

      09:14am | 27/05/11

      Ben, your word was “equal” not “exempt”. The Catholic church has many faults including pedophiles among the priests and a domineering culture. However all the examples given by the author are about massacres and calculated cold-blooded murder.

      No-one argues that anyone is “exempt” from scrutiny. The kicker comes when someone comes up with the lazy “equivalence” argument.

      Religions are NOT equivalent any more than people, companies, institutions. Some are bigger, some are wasteful, incompetent, benign. And some are threatening on a huge scale.

      To quote the crusades are the inquisition in the context of here and now is just lazy journalism. Just as they were evil at that time, the current “violent” religions are evil. Our survival depends on us being able to discriminate on who we accept and for that matter who we tolerate.

      If per chance we are all slaughtered through denial and oppressing the ability to discrimate on the many shades between the enemy and friend, pedophile priests will be the least of society’s worries.

    • Andrew says:

      03:54pm | 27/05/11

      Yes Barry, I read the article you referred to.  But it’s not news, it’s called an “opinion piece”.  Just in case that wasn’t obvious from reading it, the word “may” in the title is a bit of a giveaway.  I’m speaking from MY experiences on the ground, from the hundreds of people I’ve spoken to, and from what I’ve seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears.  Yes, pushing abstinence and monogamy are probably helping a little, but it WILL NOT help 90% of people, the people who won’t or can’t follow such policies.  People are people, they make mistakes, and there should definitely be a backup plan in place to deal with those mistakes, not a death sentence.  And seriously, you think the availability of condoms make people want to have sex more?  Seriously?  The church IS spreading lies and misinformation regarding contraception in a no-holds-barred effort to enforce their will onto Africa - if I was truly cynical I’d say in their efforts to get a foothold in the last remaining region on earth that doesn’t have a majority entrenched religion.  Go see for yourself - volunteer to help out in a clinic for a few months and I’ll even buy your ticket for you.  And ask every single patient that walks in the door what they’ve been told about contraception, and by whom.

      This is an issue I’m very passionate about, because it’s very real, it’s very deliberate, and it’s very very wrong.  And it IS killing an awful lot of people, and sadly I’ve watched more than I care to remember die in front of me.

    • Tom says:

      11:28pm | 27/05/11

      Andrew, you are genuine and compassionate about AIDS but that does not entitle you to dump on the Catholic Church.

      You have no analysis that links their dogma as a significant cause of AIDS. You have not even gone near the cultural factors such as the inherent disrespect for women or weaker members of many African societies. You have not discussed warlords and stinking dictators, the ignorance, starvation and poverty. All of these factors are local whereas the Church of Rome is not local.

      As genuine and compassionate as you seem to be about AIDS, you are scapegoating the Catholics. Unfair.

    • Erick says:

      06:20am | 26/05/11

      The problem is not religion, so much as ideology. Religion is a subset of ideology, but rule by ideology can be just as stifling as rule by theocracy. Thus, ideologies such as Marxism and Nazism tend to be just as repressive as theocracies like the Holy Roman Empire or Islamist Iran.

      The opposite of rule by ideology is not democracy - which is subject to the will of an ideological majority - but liberalism.

    • Ben says:

      06:49am | 26/05/11

      Actually a really good point.  And further to this in terms of how this impacts us in reality is that concessions are provided to people of a particular ideology - ie religious - but is not and would be scoffed at for other ideologies.

    • Tedd says:

      07:02am | 26/05/11

      Religions are ideologies, and idolatry.  It is semantics to say they are a subset or a component of the categories of ideologies.  They are based on doctrinal belief systems and gave rise to thinking that led to doctrinal systems of government (that have fallen by the way side in the last 50 years or so}.

      It is an overstatement to say democracy is subject to “the will of an ideological majority”, as democracies are not subject to the whims of will, especially ones with bicameral structures such as Australia and the USA.

      A truly secular society will have common laws than allow all belief systems to exist equally and fairly, yet not allow them to impose variations of common law on others or their adherents, regardless of the number of their adherents.

      Citizens of a rational democracy should be free to leave a belief system of they want.

    • acotrel says:

      07:46am | 26/05/11

      @Erick Are you now going to claim that the Liberal party is ‘liberal’ ?  They should be sued for false advertising!

    • Super D says:

      08:09am | 26/05/11

      @alco - in comparison with the Authoritarian Green Left the Liberal party is looking increasingly liberal - certainly in terms of economic freedom.

    • acotrel says:

      08:33am | 26/05/11

      ‘liberalism’, isn’t that sort of like anarchy?

    • Arron says:

      10:42am | 26/05/11

      @acotrel
      Sort of. Except theoretically liberalism could operate in a hierarchal power structure (ie government) as a way of ensuring freedoms are respected. Anarchists reject centralised power hierarchies. Many same same ideas but approaches.

    • acotrel says:

      11:04am | 26/05/11

      @Arron
      ‘Anarchists reject centralised power hierarchies.’

      So if a ‘liberal’ politician subverted the centralised power hierachy, he’d be an anarchist?

    • Snake says:

      11:34am | 26/05/11

      The problem with liberalism is that a majority of the population are of average intelligence or below. Average intelligence is not a good thing. You allow these sorts of people to run amok and you let society become a dogs breakfast. Before you know it we’ll have the Mormons running polygamous sermons in the streets and gay couples adopting refugee women as baby incubators to fuel their burning desire to have a family of their own.

      You need the top 20% of town to rule over the remaining 80% of nobodies. Back in the day, the powers that be realised this. They created religion for control and still to this day they control the muppets of society.

      If you honestly believe that religion is anything more than a control mechanism then you are one of the muppets that needs controlling. While I detest the very notion of religion, I understand it is something that MUST exist to keep those less intelligent under control.

    • Harquebus says:

      12:00pm | 26/05/11

      The problem is religion. The sooner it is relegated to the lunatic fringe where it belongs, the better.

    • Tedd says:

      12:22pm | 26/05/11

      Harquebus, 12:00pm,

      It is.

    • Tom says:

      01:37pm | 26/05/11

      @Snake, I love your work “religion is anything more than a control mechanism”.

      Agreed, but is that intrinsically bad? Eg, the process to ensure your adequate supply of Jack Daniels has to be controlled. We cannot have “free spirits” (pun intended) running around doing their own thing. The 20% and the 80%  both know this and the stupid ones defer to the smart ones for the greater good.

      The 20% / 80% thing can be benign in which case, you will have a good supply of Jack Daniels and whatever. It may be malevolent in which case, someone will guzzle it before it reaches your door.

      Factor into that that the stupid 80% often enjoy being lied to and given false hope, then we have a problem. You know? The Matrix?

    • acotrel says:

      07:10am | 27/05/11

      @Snake Your comment about control.  In virtually every situation in life there is a conundrum - it’s the relationship between democracy and control.  You can be paternalistic and authoritarian, but the time must come when you have to delegate your authority.  So then you have to accept the intelligence of others and trust them.  The answer lies in education, and that’s something the catholic church does quite well, even if it does have an agenda.

    • Reggie says:

      11:44am | 27/05/11

      Gotta love the redefining of liberal ideology by a faux-liberal. Even evolution is not random.—Oh Erick.

      Here, read this, “A Little History of the World” by E. H. Gombrich;  it’s for adults as well as kids. Originally written in German and in Germany of the 1930s. It has been conclusively shown that people prefer strictures and guidance with rational limits. Religion and Politics both seek to take advantage of this principle.  Faux-liberals most of all. Remember that no matter how they wriggle and squirm, the Liberal Party of Australia are Conservatives dedicated, at any cost, to holding what they have. The complete opposite of liberal. The same could be said of the various religious factions. Both seek to control the minds of the people.

    • TheRaptured2012 says:

      06:49am | 26/05/11

      Would it not be good if all these trouble making christians were to just disappear all at once and leave this world to itself so it can Evolve further?

    • marley says:

      08:25am | 26/05/11

      It’d be even better if you disappeared and left the rest of the Punchers alone.

    • Paulb says:

      09:03am | 26/05/11

      Marley is obviously a trouble-making christian.  Rapture ahoy

    • Timmy says:

      10:43am | 26/05/11

      If you are an Atheist you are therefore compelled to believe in evolution as an unthinking, unintentional, uncaring and unaccountable process. Thus, the fact that we have religion, must have arisen out of the fact that religion is somehow useful to our continued existence. The fact that you seem to think that in a few short generations we will evolve to ditch religious though shows a lack of understanding of the time involved for the process to institute change.

      The fact that an unthinking, unintentional, uncaring and unaccountable process has somehow created an entity that is thinking, intentional, caring and accountable enough to actually want to separate church and state is rather perplexing.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      12:02pm | 26/05/11

      @Timmy- The fact that a memeplex such as religion survives does not reflect the utility or otherwise of the memeplex anymore than any other memplex such as nationalism, patriotism etc. Humans exist to spread particular memplexes around whether or not the meme is has utility value or may even be contra survival. For example the memeplex of patriotism convincing the individual to die for their country, even though it is counter suvival and thus counter evolutionary.

    • TheRaptured says:

      03:25pm | 26/05/11

      Thats what the Globalist’s want, is for all christians and their belief in the bible and god, is to disappear and for the human race left behind to believe in their One world Governement and their one world currency(BanCor), backboned through carbon taxing for the climate change fraud they are perpetrating. I hope I get my wish and get raptured off this hellish planet sooner than later.

    • Just Sayin' says:

      06:09pm | 26/05/11

      Timmy,

      “Thus, the fact that we have religion, must have arisen out of the fact that religion is somehow useful to our continued existence”

      No, wrong on two counts
      1. There is no established genetic basis for religion, it is meme based, not gene based.  While they are often used as anaologies for each other, they are completely different systems with different rules
      2. Not everything thrown up in the evolutionary process is good or useful.  One genetic change can have multiple effects and if one effect is really good, and the others are neutral or only a little bit bad, the overall change may still be beneficial.  Put another way, if there is a genetic reason for religion, it may just be a side effect of something genuinely useful, like larger brains or predisposition to Type I over Type II errors.

    • Seanr says:

      07:41am | 26/05/11

      Nicely put Erick

    • rajend naidu says:

      07:51am | 26/05/11

      yes, religion is a matter of private belief and it should remain in the private domain of the religious believer and not intrude into the public domain.It does not belong in that realm.

    • acotrel says:

      08:42am | 26/05/11

      @rajend The real problem is all this dreadful democracy.  Unfortunately some religous people have genuine and relevant concerns, and they’re entitled to air them!

    • fml says:

      09:24am | 26/05/11

      acotrel,

      Thats true, but people do have the right to be left alone too, which freedom is worth more?

    • Michael N says:

      09:48am | 26/05/11

      You have the right to do whatever you want, so long as your actions do not impinge on my right to do whatever I want. Simple in theory smile

    • acotrel says:

      09:50am | 26/05/11

      @fml I quite enjoy it when the believers come to my front door selling their religion.  I’m not an easy customer for their product.

    • acotrel says:

      09:55am | 26/05/11

      @fml I find it really nice that the religous only want to bring Jesus into my life, and there is no percentage with them ! There are so many scam merchants about, these days.

    • fml says:

      10:40am | 26/05/11

      @acotrel,

      Well you may do, and others don’t, especially when we are talking about our homes, it should be by invitation only.

    • AAAdam says:

      11:17am | 26/05/11

      “I quite enjoy it when the believers come to my front door selling their religion.  I’m not an easy customer for their product”

      Just out of curiosity, do you also enjoy telemarketers calling at dinner time, pop up advertisements on the internet and drunks stumbling over uninvited to say “hi” on a Friday night? Where do you personally draw the line and think you should have the right to be left alone if you so desire?

    • kathy says:

      11:21am | 26/05/11

      Well said, Religion needs to out of the public and practiced in your own time in your own private home as we do not want other beliefs shoved down our throat!

    • Rose says:

      11:49am | 26/05/11

      Maybe kathy, but don’t those who have religious belief also have the right to go about their day to day business without your belief that religion should be hidden being shoved in their face?

    • L. says:

      12:21pm | 26/05/11

      @ acotrel

      “Unfortunately some religous people have genuine and relevant concerns, and they’re entitled to air them! “

      True, they do. However saying something is bad because a 2000 yr old book says it is doesn’t make their concerns relevant by default.

      For instance, if a group group had a concern about the importation of clothes made of mixed materials (which is a bad thing according to the bible), those concerns wouldn’t be relevant or legitimate by mere virture of it being a “sin” or whatever…

    • Luce says:

      12:25pm | 26/05/11

      Rose, writing a comment on a website about it is hardly shoving it in their face. It’s optional to read it or not. Going to people’s doors or putting up billboards saying religion should be private, now that is another matter. However, to my knowledge that hasn’t happened.

    • Kika says:

      01:38pm | 26/05/11

      Yeah but Rajend how do you knock out how your brain works and computes data? If you have Christian brain you’re going to logically process thoughts in a Christian way. If you have a Hindu brain you’re going to process thoughts in a Hindu way. If you have a Communist brain you’re going to process thoughts in a commie way. If you’re a right winged neo -con you’re going to process…. you get the point.

      Do we take all politicians to a brain deprogramming seminar and make them all political androids who think and process things exactly the same way? If that’s the case you don’t have a democracy but totalitarianism!

    • acotrel says:

      07:19am | 27/05/11

      @Kika Whatever brain you have, you should recognise that this is the time of the great convergence.  The major political parties all favour the free market economy/neoliberalism and they even have a problem finding political differences with which to fight each other.

    • Warwick says:

      07:56am | 26/05/11

      Very good, Eric. Think of the half - formed socialism, the rule of the Goddess of Reason, that motivated the French Revolution. And contemplate the Terror. The people who oversaw it considered themselves to be anti-religious but the intolerance was the same.

    • Timmy says:

      08:04am | 26/05/11

      I agree with the separation of church and state, and I further agree with Erick that there should be an avoidance of the state subscribing to a specific ideology.

      However I fail to see why a terrorist attack appears on your short list of church spliced to state gone wrong.

      How does a stateless organisation attacking a building which symbolised capitalism and killing thousands inside relate to church and state being joined?

      The appearance in the list of the holocaust is also dubious. It was the Godless philosophies of the 19th Century that gave power to the hat of Hitler.

      Separating church and state is a good start, but the 20th century shows us that Godless ideologies are a worse replacement.

    • marley says:

      08:31am | 26/05/11

      @Timmy - all Muslims belong to the Ummah - the Muslim nation - it is that ultimate intertwining of religion and state.  And of course, the Twin Towers were destroyed in the name of that nation and of Allah. It belongs on the list.  So does the Holocaust, a genocide targeting various groups, but one religion in particular. 

      I think Erick is right to argue that absolutist ideologies, with or without god in them, are the problem.

    • Timmy says:

      08:49am | 26/05/11

      lol - read “Hate of Hitler”

    • acotrel says:

      08:57am | 26/05/11

      @Timmy ‘The appearance in the list of the holocaust is also dubious. It was the Godless philosophies of the 19th Century that gave power to the hat of Hitler.

      Separating church and state is a good start, but the 20th century shows us that Godless ideologies are a worse replacement.’

      Any ‘ideology’ is dangerous when used with intent to do damage.  The main factor which helped Hitler to rise was our treatment of the Germans at Versailles.  We continued a propaganda war which was based on lies, and effectively blamed Germany for WW1.  Everything which was done by Goebbels and Hitler was based on that vestige of truth, and was done with malice of forethought.  The philosophies which were seized upon were mainly derived from the British, as the Germans were dedicated anglophiles!  I know Nietsche was not British, but he was clearly a dickhead who happened to sound good to the Nazis.  The whole of the Nazi philosophies would have been just as bad, if they’d included God!  Islamic terrorists have God on their side!

    • Paulb says:

      09:04am | 26/05/11

      Hitler wasn’t as “godless” as he is portrayed by many, particularly uninformed christians trying to slander atheists.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      09:09am | 26/05/11

      “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

      This preamble to the US constitution embodies ideology.  It specifically says “provide” defence and “promote” general welfare, not “provide” general welfare. It also says “secure the blessings of liberty”. That is an ideology defining the role of government.

      Specifically the US constitution is based on the idea of a Republic not a Democracy. Government is limited by constitution and has specific limits that can’t be changed by majority rule.

      Unfortunately politicians keep talking about spreading democracy and not about spreading the idea of a Republic, which is really what they mean.

      Although for socialists, democracy is far easier to subvert then a Republic.

    • Timmy says:

      09:45am | 26/05/11

      “I freed Germany from the stupid and degrading fallacies of conscience and morality .... we will train young people before whom the world will tremble. I want young people capable of violence - imperious, relentless and cruel.” - Adolf Hitler

      While some religious people do terrible things in an attempt to impose morality, Hitler wanted to obliterate morality.

      In the 19th Century Nietzsche declared God dead and then predicted that it would follow as a result that the 20th Century would be the bloodiest of centuries.

      A state which attempts to remove God totally from the equation will be as bad, if not worse than a state which attempts to force God into the equation.

    • Chris L says:

      04:38pm | 26/05/11

      Actually Timmy, Hitler (Godwin forgive us) inspired the German people to commit those terrible acts by appealing to their religion. He invoked god and Jesus in every speech and the belts of the SA announced Gott Mit Uns. He also spoke often of the new church of Germany. Basically very much not a godless ideology.

    • Timmy says:

      05:31pm | 26/05/11

      “The law of selection justifies this incessant struggle, by allowing the survival of the fittest.  Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature.  Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.” - Adolf Hitler

      Sounds a bit more like Richard Dawkins than the Pope.

      Chris, invoking Christianity and actually being a Christian can be two very different things.

    • Just Sayin' says:

      06:18pm | 26/05/11

      As Richard Dawkins rightly points out, Hitler completely misinterprets Darwin on the meaning of ‘Survival of the fittest’, though it was an unfortunate choice of words by Darwin.  He didn’t mean ‘fittest’ as in the strongest, the most fit and the most healthy, which Hitler took to mean tall, white, blond, germanic people, he meant those that ‘fit their environment best’. 

      ‘Survival of those that best fit the environment’ would have been a far more helpful choice of words, as the ‘fittest’ individuals for some environments are dumb, small, slow, weak, fat and/or lazy.

    • Tedd says:

      07:54pm | 26/05/11

      Darwin did not coin the term “Survival of the Fittest” - a contemporary, Herbert Spencer, did; as a synonym for ‘natural selection’.  Darwin did use it in the 5th or 6 th edition of his famous boo, ‘On the Origin of Species.

      It does not mean competition but a population fitting into a niche.

      Would be good to have a source for the Hitler quote.

      There are some more here

      http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler

      http://nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm

    • Steve Putnam says:

      08:54pm | 26/05/11

      @acotel. We are usually on the same side but I can’t let your remarks about Nietzsche pass without comment. It is doubtful that Hitler ever read Nietzsche. Like most of the Nazis (possible exceptions being Goebbels and Heydrich) he only knew vulgar popularisations of the philosopher’s work through Nietzsche’s sister, picking up catch phrases such as “Ubermensch” (superman) and “der Wille zur Macht” (will to power) along the way, which he reinterpreted along racial lines.
      Hitler would have been appalled by the fact that Nietzsche and Wagner, whom Hitler idolised, parted company over the composer’s extreme German nationalism, and that Nietzsche admired Jews despite being critical of the Judaeo- Christian ethic. Nietzsche certainly was a contrarian who showed definite signs of mental instability, but to dismiss him as a dickhead is unworthy of you acotel! I suggest you read “Beyond Good and Evil” and get back to me.
      I am also at a loss to know what you mean by “The (Nazi) philosopies ......were mainly derived from the British”. For a start, mainstream Anglo-American philosophy is empiricist in its epistemology accompanied by a political philosophy of liberalism, in other words diametrically opposed to National Socialism in both theory and practice. Moreover the “will to power” was a concept Nietzsche opposed to the “will to happiness” as found in the writings of Bentham and Mill (and later Freud) which he thought applicable only to the British, so they were hardly in concert.
      Finally the Treaty of Versailles, harsh though it was, would have been a whole lot worse had it not been for the British and their Dominions, including us. Clemenceau wanted Germany broken up into the three hundred odd states it had been at the time of the Napoleonic conquest so it would never again be a threat to France. Besides the treaty itself was mild when compared to the treaty the Germans themselves imposed on the defeated Russians at Brest-Litovsk, which took virtually all Russia’s industry, over a million square miles of Russian territory, and incorporated 66,000,000 Russians and Ukrainians into the German Reich!

    • Just Sayin' says:

      10:28pm | 26/05/11

      Thanks for the correction Ted, I appreciate it. The rest of my comment (about the actual meaning of the phrase) still stands.

    • Chris L says:

      10:36pm | 26/05/11

      “Chris, invoking Christianity and actually being a Christian can be two very different things.”

      My point was Hitler was able to inspire his people to massacre by filling them with religious ferver. After all, god was apparently on their side, and if they’d won we might be saying that here now as well (well, not me). Whether Hitler himself was Christian is less important, although he gave every indication he was.

      The holocost was certainly not caused by lack of faith.

    • Michael says:

      08:08am | 26/05/11

      alcotrel: does your mind work on any level other than a religious hatred of all things not labor?

    • acotrel says:

      08:59am | 26/05/11

      @Michael I have religous hatred of religous LIARS!

    • Freddo says:

      08:08am | 26/05/11

      One positive of Sharia law is the Saudi ban on women driving. Jooliar could adopt that as a means of reducing carbon emissions - it would also get a lot of drunks off the road especially during school peak hour. There’s nothing religious about that.

    • acotrel says:

      09:19am | 26/05/11

      If we adopted Shariah law, that’d get the drunks off the roads! Especially after we’d beheaded them?

    • Socrates of The Hills (NSW) says:

      09:27am | 26/05/11

      Multiple wives would be a good idea too. If one of them pisses you off because of her constant nagging, you can bed another one for the night.

    • acotrel says:

      09:58am | 26/05/11

      @Socrates But if they’re both ugly you can’t get drunk!

    • Socrates of The Hills (NSW) says:

      10:25am | 26/05/11

      @ acotrel:

      You can always leave their burqa on - just lift it up as you do the deed - ROFLMFAO !!!!!!!

    • Bee says:

      12:51pm | 27/05/11

      I dunno Socrates. You might have trouble getting one wife, let alone two, ugly or not.

    • Marian Dalton says:

      08:10am | 26/05/11

      The major culprit in the race to erode the barrier between religion and the state is not Islam - it is ‘born again’ Christianity. They are assisted by a powerful lobby group (ACL), and politicians’ wilful obscuration of the essentially religious nature of opposition to issues like same-sex marriage.

    • James1 says:

      08:36am | 26/05/11

      Not really - they are pretty much the same.  What is different is the public reaction.  Everyone gets all worked up about a submission to the Migration Committee, but seem to get less worked up over an organisation whose charter states that their explicit reason for existence is to make Australian law and society more biblical.

    • fml says:

      09:28am | 26/05/11

      I am tired of the ACL’s Jihad on R18+ games.

      Bah,  i say all religious texts that include, violence, sexual and adult themes should be banned as well.

    • acotrel says:

      09:28am | 26/05/11

      @Marion I have only one major issue with religion,  it’s their authoritarian nature.  The catholic church is based on ‘the authority of Christ’ and is not a democratic institution.  Islamics have openly denounced western democracy!
      We fought two world wars for democratic freedom, and lost 100,000 men in that cause.  That seems to mean nothing to some people? I will not be dictated to by ideologues.

    • marley says:

      09:59am | 26/05/11

      @acotrel - not all religions are authoritarian.  Even within Christianity, there’s a huge range, from Catholics through to Quakers.  And other religions - Budhhism, Jainism, etc - aren’t especially authoritarian.

    • AdamC says:

      02:28pm | 26/05/11

      “They are assisted by a powerful lobby group (ACL), and politicians’ wilful obscuration of the essentially religious nature of opposition to issues like same-sex marriage. “

      Well, I don’t know how powerful the ACL is, but it is simply wrong to say that opposition to same sex marriage is religious in nature. There are lots of non-religious people who don’t support gay marriage.

    • Just Sayin' says:

      10:41pm | 26/05/11

      AdamC is right. Gay marriage is opposed by a variety of bigots.

    • Super D says:

      08:13am | 26/05/11

      Of course Church and State should be separate and this should apply equally to both the traditional faiths and the new age earth worshipers..

      It should be obvious to all that the Green religion is utilising the resources of the state to proselytize to those they identify as deniers of the truth of their faith.

    • rodney allsworth says:

      03:59pm | 26/05/11

      super D, absolutley good concept of what the greens actually are, I also note that all the ragers against -religion-in general are not prepared to accept the greens as a religious belief system, interesting isnt it.,rod   qld

    • Sony B Goode says:

      08:21am | 26/05/11

      Our constitution needs to be updated, it is too weak. It has no bill of rights. It allows the government to financially support the church and allows state property to be used for church purposes. It shouldn’t.

      While we are at it, there should be a cap of government spending and indebtedness, the debt ceiling should be a percentage of GDP and require a referendum to change. Taxation powers need to be curtailed and limited likewise. There should be no appropriation of property without proper compensation. There should also be criminal sanctions against deliberate economic damage caused by politicians.

    • Socrates of The Hills (NSW) says:

      09:32am | 26/05/11

      Does they mean we can execute Big Red and Bobby Brown for crimes against humanity when Tony wins at the next election ????

    • acotrel says:

      10:06am | 26/05/11

      Yeah!! - Let’s bring back the command economy!  How would you like to be called ‘Der Fuhrer’ - sound good?

    • Rose says:

      10:07am | 26/05/11

      I used to be a firm believer in the need for a Bill of Rights, but after looking into it, it’s most definitely not the solution. The Constitution could be updated, but the likelihood of getting the yes vote is very slim.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      10:27am | 26/05/11

      We assume that politicians will “do the right thing” by us, yet that is not always the case. Immunity for politicians needs to be carefully reconsidered. There is a long history of politicians out to punish voters they can’t convince on the basis that they would have never won them over anyway.

      A more scientific policy process with clear measurables, might be a starting point.

      For example if a politician claims a certain policy is required because of some economic outcome then it should be as much as possible drafted to be measurable so we can decide if it met that objective or not with automatic review at regular points.

      Legislations should have clear intents as pre-ambles so again we can judge if they are successful or not.

      Too much policy is based on airy fairy ideological positions that vanish in real world situations, or worst entrench or worsen a problem they seek to address. Or as is often the case, legislation pushes hidden agendas.

      Unintended consequences need to be identified and a mechanism for people to use these to have bad laws repealed needs to be thought about as well.

      Too much policy is based on airy fairy ideological positions that vanish in real world situations, or worst entrench or worsen a problem they seek to address.

    • Bev says:

      11:03am | 26/05/11

      Sony B Goode says:08:21am | 26/05/11

      Our constitution needs to be updated, it is too weak. It has no bill of rights.
      Very definatly NO. The problem with a bill of rights is it sets rights in concrete.  Societies consensus of what is moral, right, wrong, what is acceptable and what is not change over time.  Many of our basic rights freedom of speach, assembly etc have not been handed down from on high they have been achieved by jury nullification shaping common law over the centuries. If we are to change the constitution change S.80 which covers trial by jury to make it applicable to all offences indictable or summary. Australians have the right to trial by jury only if it is an indictable offence a summary offence does not have to be tried by jury.
      An example. Several states are enacting anti-bikey laws as part of these laws you will be in breach of the law if you associate with a member of a proscribed gang.  Lets say this member is your brother and you regularly invite him and his family to family gatherings, you have commited an offence and since you will be charged on summons and tried by a judge or magistrate he have no option but to find you guilty. On the other hand I doubt a jury would find you guilty and probably consider the law unjust. Net result if a number of such verdicts were returned the law would fall into disrepute.  The main reason prohibition failed in the US was because juries did not see having a drink as a crime and since US citizens do have an unfettered right to trial by jury juries threw the cases out by finding people innocent even though they were guilty according to law.  By the way If these get up what group of people club etc is the next cab off the rank? Slippery slope and all.

    • TheRealDave says:

      11:32am | 26/05/11

      I am against a Bill of Rights

      However,

      I am totally for a Bill of Rights and Responsibilities

    • Sony B Goode says:

      12:27pm | 26/05/11

      bev “The problem with a bill of rights is it sets rights in concrete”

      That is exactly why we need a bill of rights otherwise we are at the mercy of politicians and ageing judges pushing ideology or in Muslims case, religion.

      Further we need some greater accountability on politicians beyond the odd election every few years.

    • Bev says:

      01:57pm | 26/05/11

      Sony B Goode says:12:27pm | 26/05/11

      bev “The problem with a bill of rights is it sets rights in concrete”

      That is exactly why we need a bill of rights otherwise we are at the mercy of politicians and ageing judges pushing ideology or in Muslims case, religion.

      Further we need some greater accountability on politicians beyond the odd election every few years.

      Which why we don’t want a bill of rights handed down from on high.
      Simple question who is the best judge of rights those on high or the great mass of society?  Jury nullification put the final say in the hands of people and I would rather trust them.
      Another example:  The leader of the Eureka stockade Peter Laylor was tried for sedition (indictable offence). He was clearly guilty but was aquitted by a jury who didn’t think the miners were getting a fair deal The government was forced to back down.
      Governments/judges are aware of jury nullification and don’t like to talk about it because juries in order to find guilt must weigh the facts AND judge that the law is fair.  Judges once used instruct jurors “You have a right to take upon yourselves to judge [both the facts and law].”  now in order to hide the power jurors have judges instruct jurors that it is their duty to apply the law as it is given to them, whether they agree with the law or not. knowing full well it is a lie.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      02:46pm | 26/05/11

      bev “judges instruct jurors that it is their duty to apply the law as it is given to them, whether they agree with the law or not. knowing full well it is a lie”

      Which makes my point exactly, you are telling me judges are interfering with our rights. That is the reason we need constitutional rights, be it in a separate bill or not, so that neither judges nor politicians can trample or ignore our basic rights.

    • Tator says:

      08:25pm | 26/05/11

      Bev,
      “Several states are enacting anti-bikey laws as part of these laws you will be in breach of the law if you associate with a member of a proscribed gang.  Lets say this member is your brother and you regularly invite him and his family to family gatherings, you have commited an offence “
      What a fallacy, as one of the few people here who have been actually trained in the enforcement of this act ICB.
      Try reading section 35 part 6 of the Serious and Organised Crime (control) Act where it states:
      (6) The following forms of associations will be disregarded for the purposes of this section unless the prosecution proves that the association was not reasonable in the circumstances:
      (a) associations between close family members;
      (b) associations occurring in the course of a lawful occupation, business or profession;
      (c) associations occurring at a course of training or education of a prescribed kind between persons enrolled in the course;
      (d) associations occurring at a rehabilitation, counselling or therapy session of a prescribed kind;
      (e) associations occurring in lawful custody or in the course of complying with a court order;

      So basically, unless the meeting with a close relative was for the purpose of planning or committing an offence, there can be no offence committed.

      http://www.legislation.sa.gov.au/LZ/C/A/SERIOUS AND ORGANISED CRIME (CONTROL) ACT 2008/CURRENT/2008.13.UN.PDF

    • malohi says:

      09:28pm | 26/05/11

      Sonny B, you do realise that the courts would be required to interpret the bill of rights?
      So the courts, unelected judges, would have the final say in what our rights are. This means that even if we wanted to change these “rights” by changing the law by democratically elected representatives we would be unable to.
      We would essentially have less freedom as we would be hopelessly bound by the ruling of a tiny minority of unelected individuals.

      We already have a bill of rights and responsibilities, it is called the law.

      A bill of rights was relevant to making clear OUR rights as opposed to a king or dictators rights, laws offer greater freedom in democratic society than antiquitated, hamfisted (dare I say american) notions of “Mah Rites”

    • Sony B Goode says:

      10:56pm | 26/05/11

      Courts are only required to interpret the constitution as far as the constitutional validity of Laws is challenged.

      Take the US constitutional 1st amendment.
      “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

      This is not couched in some obscure legalese, and provides clear guidance for everyone ,people, judges and government on what laws are valid and not. That’s the purpose of a constitution. If you think it’s valid for a politician forbidding more than 4 people to assemble then welcome to Democracy. Only the constitution stops politicians from passing such laws.

      Now clearly some people want to pass laws restricting people’s rights for arbitrary reason. For this reason the law is insufficient as a definition of rights. The constitution is a mechanism to limit to power of government.

      People who don’t want a bill of rights probably have an agenda that violates basic freedoms.

      Secondly Judges should be elected. There is no reason why they should not.

      Which brings me back to my original point, we need a stronger constitution. There has to be greater accountability for politicians and what they are allowed to legislate. 

      There are numerous examples of bad laws around which should never have been passed, and would not have given a stronger constitution.

    • Bev says:

      11:18pm | 26/05/11

      Tator says:08:25pm | 26/05/11
      I stand corrected.
      Perhaps I should have chosen a different example. However as a hypheretical example of non fair law it stands.

    • Bee says:

      01:01pm | 27/05/11

      @Socrates go away, you sad fuckwit

    • Michael says:

      08:26am | 26/05/11

      It’s interesting to take religion out of this argument and replace it with something non-emotional like a love of the colour blue.Then imagine someone insisting that the Australia should modify it’s laws around the love of all things blue and that nobody should be allowed to wear anything not blue or risk having their heads smashed with a bloody big rock… Nobody would even listen past the first few words. Yet we somehow feel that people’s love of an intangible deity is much more important than another person’s love of their football team or the colour blue.

      The bible has a passage which advises people not to “throw pearls before swine”. This is exactly what that passage means… If it’s precious to you, do not demand everyone look at it - because a lot of us will not share your views and the harder you try to force us, the more we will resent you/your views. This might make you angry and make you want to fly a plane into the side of a building or something.

      Religion has not given the world anything positive ever. A few religious people have, and do, but religion is nothing but divisive. It breeds hatred, burns books, starts wars, murders innocents, spreads “gihad” crusades, stops progress and makes misery. It exists to allow individuals to rule over us. It is the natural enemy of democracy.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      08:41am | 26/05/11

      Simply put decisions based around Governement and the implementation of the relevant laws should be based on fact, not on the belief or non belief of a fairy tale.

    • acotrel says:

      09:37am | 26/05/11

      @Michael
      ‘Religion has not given the world anything positive ever.’

      Some people find religion immediately prior to death, and it seems to help them.  I wonder if you will do likewise as your end approaches?

    • AJ says:

      11:39am | 26/05/11

      @acotrel
      So the only example you could think of was that people who are dying may or may not be comforted by religion just before they die. Really? Some of the happiest people I have ever met have been mentally handicapped. By your logic everyone should actively seek to damage their mental faculties. Because then they will (as far as I can see) be happy!

      Which I think is a pretty apt comparison when talking about religion.

    • Rose says:

      12:00pm | 26/05/11

      “Religion has not given the world anything positive ever”, quite possibly one of the stupidest statements ever! Religions have long been the main players in charity works and welfare provision. Sure, in some instances this delivery was quite cruel by todays standards, but generally it was within range of the standards of the day. For example, beating children was pretty much a universal tactic for raising children not confined only to religious institutions, same goes for hitting wives, cruel workhouses etc.
      Religion has provided the resources for hospitals, schools, soup kitchens and many other charitable works which improve lives for millions around the world every day! Do not allow your blind hatred of religion to make you ignore the positives.

    • Michael says:

      12:43pm | 26/05/11

      Acotrel, finding religion as your end is upon you is hedging your bet!

      Somewhat like a western soldier about to be beheaded by the taliban saying ok ok i wanna join islam.

      An atheist realising they may be wrong is hardly “finding” religion, it’s a self preservation instinct.

    • Chris L says:

      04:50pm | 26/05/11

      If there are no atheists in foxholes that must mean there are a lot of dead christians in foxholes whose prayers were pointless.

    • Pete says:

      08:37am | 26/05/11

      No you cant do that or the wilderness society would be on your back about the deprivation of bower birds who love blue

    • Kika says:

      01:45pm | 26/05/11

      Yeah! Poor birds. Their belief is females love blue.  Leave them alone.

    • Menipulative Misery says:

      08:43am | 26/05/11

      All religions are man made -  therefore they must be
      mental as anything.

    • Luce says:

      01:46pm | 26/05/11

      God needs man to survive more then man needs god to survive.

    • Lee from WA says:

      08:46am | 26/05/11

      Actually, the opposite of separation of church and state (in the minds of those who formed these ideas) is an established church, like the Church of England, who persecuted the Puritans, presbyterians and other Dissenters, of which many travelled to America to find refuge.

    • Dan says:

      08:56am | 26/05/11

      Minority groups with agendas are currently far more dangerous to Australia’s way of life. The Green party anyone ?!!!

      The Chinese government is very effective at dealing with religion getting in the way. Are we sure we want to go down that path.

    • fml says:

      09:32am | 26/05/11

      Damn those minority groupies with their evil agendas, what do they think this is? a democracy?

    • Paul H says:

      08:57am | 26/05/11

      Catholicism, Christianity and several other religions are not the problem. They are basically a system of belief through faith and have nothing to do with the inquisition, crusades or other historical events. It is however the interpretation of these beliefs by power hungry individuals, who cannot be counted amongst the true believers. It is all too easy to blame the message when it’s actually the appointed caretakers of these messages who distort it for their own benefit. As an example, the Catholic belief is one peace and love to all mankind but the Catholic hierachy is as bent as a dogs hind leg. Some Christian sects or fundamentalists are also tarred with the same brush. I have only read the Koran once or twice and again it’s the interpretation by a few twisted individuals that is the cause of the problem.

    • Jack Richards says:

      09:40am | 26/05/11

      You either need to learn to read with comprehension or see a psychiatrist. The Bible and the Koran have everything to do with the “inquistion” and all the other horrors you mention. The idea of “faith” demonstrates that any believer is dangerously mad.

      Go and read the Bible and the Koran again - and this time try to understand exactly what they are preaching i.e. thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. The punishment for apostasy, heresy, blasphemy, homosexuality, fornication, adultery, not keeping the sabbath holy, dishonouring parents, denying the holy spirit etc etc is DEATH. And usually by the cruelest possible means i.e. slow roasting on a pyre or by stoning.

      Everyone who beleives this nonsense is a “twisted individual” and “the cause of the problem”.

    • MikeH says:

      08:58am | 26/05/11

      “Politics. Religion. Combine the two and the result can be very nasty indeed. Think about a short list: the Crusades, the Inquisition, New York and the twin towers, the Holocaust, massacre of the Huguenots. It appears that when Church and State are combined into one, horrific things can happen.”

      I have no problem at all with separating politics and religion, but the opening paragraph of this article is so incredibly biased and misleading that I am left (almost) speechless.

      How on earth do we get “Politics and Religion” from the Holocaust, for goodness sake?!! So because Jews have a religion they somehow share blame for Hitler’s campaign to exterminate them? That’s just sick.

      I’ll grant the others on the “short list” (although I think 9/11 is drawing a pretty long bow). But what then do we say about the much longer list, including the Boer War, WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, the Killing Fields of Cambodia, human rights abuses and massacres in the Soviet Union and China, ethnic cleansing in Rwanda… These things make the Crusades, Inquisition and the Huguenots pale by comparison, and they’re a damn sight more recent. If we go back further - Ghengis Khan, Alexander the Great, conquests of the Roman Empire and on and on. How many people died?

      Maybe human nature and politics don’t mix.

      Maybe at the core, people just like to push other people around.

    • Wickerman says:

      11:36am | 26/05/11

      Totally agree. I am agnostic, but non-religious idealogies must take their share of the blame for the historical carnage. Also add:
      - American civil war
      - Napoleonic wars
      - Falklands war
      - Franco-Prussian War
      - Mexican–American War

      etc etc

    • Reg Whiteman says:

      09:01am | 26/05/11

      Why is it that our Government clearly breaches the constitution, and has done for 40 years, by handing out gazillions of dollars to the Catholics for their schools - and to all the other “religious” schools?

      Why am I paying for the propagation of absurd myths under the guise of “education” in everything from Exclusive Brethren schools teaching creationism as “science” to Muslim Madrasses teaching hatred of our entire western liberal system and the glories of martyrdom?

      It really gives me the shits to know that even one cent of my taxes goes to these benighted fools to continue spreading their ancient ignorance as “truth”.

      On top of that, we have a whole gaggle of wowsers endlessly trying to restrict my freedom in everything from having a drink, a bet, or a cigarette to driving my car.

      The biggest danger to the world is this current resurgence of religion in the world. The Muftis, rabbis, priests and parson are a bigger danger than Stalin and Hitler ever were. At least in Stalin’s USSR you could have a drink and a bet - but the Muftis and wowsers want to take even that from us.

      To the best of my knowledge, neither Hitler nor Stalin ever had old women burned at the stake as “witches” nor did either of them ever decree that adulterers be stoned to death.

      Can you imagine what the world will be like when the Islamic loonies finally get their hands on nuclear, biological and chemical weapons and the means to deliver them? They won’t hesitate to use them “In God’s Name” and they’ll make the holocaust look like minor incident.

      It is time that the seperation between religions and the secular state was enforced in this country and not another cent from the public purse was handed out to any of these pious and pure pricks who want to impose their demonstrable idiocy on me.

      I also think that anyone who is a confessed believer in any religion (e.g. Kevin Rudd and Tony Abbott) should be automatically banned from holding public office. Let’s face it, if you believe in an Old man in the sky, angels and devils, heavens, purgatories and hells, virgin births, flying horses, saints, burning bushes that talk and that you receive messages telepathically from the old man in the sky, then you’ve got to be a complete lunatic.

    • Barney says:

      09:20am | 26/05/11

      Well said Reg , could not agree more

    • Socrates of The Hills says:

      09:39am | 26/05/11

      You’re allowed to drink and bet under Catholicism. Catholics RULE !!!!!!!!!

    • Knemon says:

      10:10am | 26/05/11

      I will second that Barney…vote 1 - Reg Whiteman

    • Timmy says:

      11:07am | 26/05/11

      So Stalin’s ideologies are more palatable because he let his people drink and gamble?

      I’d rather admit to believing in an Old man in the sky (which by the way is a a complete misrepresentation of God) than to think that ANY ideology religious or otherwise that leads to repression and murder is worse or more dangerous.

    • MikeH says:

      11:47am | 26/05/11

      @Reg: “To the best of my knowledge, neither Hitler nor Stalin ever had old women burned at the stake as “witches” nor did either of them ever decree that adulterers be stoned to death.”

      No, they just had millions, including old women, old men and children tortured, experimented on, gassed, shot, baked alive etc. All in the cause of a social experiment. Clearly much more logical and civilised.

      By the way, witch trials and executions ceased about 300 years ago, so maybe the Church has progressed, if mankind, as a whole, has not.

    • Reg Whiteman says:

      11:51am | 26/05/11

      Timmy - Stalinism, with all its faults, would be a better proposition than any form of theocracy. The great majority of Soviet citizens did not suffer through the purges and the soviet education system brought a backward peasant nation from illiteracy to the space race in 40 years. They believed in science and advancement - but lost the plot a bit with individual freedom.

      Islam, Christianity and Judaism all want to stop the world in a medieval past. They all want to impose their insane righteousness and lunatic ideas on everyone else. Afte Christianty took over in the 4th century, the world went into reverse for more than a thousand years. After a great flowering of Arab culture, Islam consigned it to backwardness, susperstition and the the worship of death. The total GDP of all the Islamic countries is less than that of Spain - and the reason for this backwardness is the Muslim religion. How can any society progress when all the answers to everything is contained in one book of nonsense; when half the population are refused education and treated like live-stock and made to hide-away from everything and everyone.

      Islam and Christianity want society to be ignorant, unquestioning and obedient. If it was up to the insane Muftis, Priests, Rabbis etc we’d all belive the world was formed on 25th October 4004 BC and is the centre of the universe and is flat and God made everything including tooth decay, scabies, and spinal cancer. And here are these raving maniacs , pontificating on things like stem cell research, population control, global warming etc when they couldn’t find their own arses with a GPS and look forward to a heaven with all the modern conveniences of the 6th Century CE!

      What’s even more astonishing is that Politicians actually take the inane and insane ramblings of these dickheads seriously! It just beggars belief.

      Everyone should fear the dewy eyed religious fanatic, looking heavenward with a beatific and knowing smile. They’ll kill you and believe they have done it for the highest of ideals!

      It’s time for every sane person who likes freedom and doing their own thing without interference to stand up againt these benighted fools preaching 6th century rubbish while dressed in the world’s silliest hats. The hats and frocks give them away - total cranks and raving nut-cases.

    • MikeH says:

      12:05pm | 26/05/11

      @Reg: “Why is it that our Government clearly breaches the constitution…”

      Section 116 of the Constitution (the only section that mentions religion) reads: “The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.”

      So, how does funding of “religious schools “cleraly breach” this?

    • Timmy says:

      12:25pm | 26/05/11

      wow Reg, so progress is your measure?

      Stalin’s progress in Russia only cost 50,000,000 plus lives.

      I would rather live a life in an ignorant backwater than live with progress rooted on a fast flowing river of blood.

    • MikeH says:

      12:27pm | 26/05/11

      @Reg: “The great majority of Soviet citizens did not suffer through the purges…”

      No, only tens of millions did. A small price to pay for getting into the space race really…

      Come on, you’re just trolling aren’t you?

    • marley says:

      03:31pm | 26/05/11

      The great majority of Soviet citizens did not suffer through the purges?  Tell that to the relatives of the several million Ukrainians who starved to death in an artificial famine created by central planning.

    • antman says:

      06:21pm | 26/05/11

      Reg,

      I have no religious affilliations of any kind. However, I am unable to find my own arse with a GPS. There were all manner of streets, parks, post offices and other landmarks to which I could navigate but no sign of my arse. If you are implying that you are able to find your arse in such a manner, it must be a spectacularly large one.

    • Tom says:

      09:04am | 26/05/11

      Bit of an irony here? Separation of the church and state is a Christian teaching.

    • acotrel says:

      09:47am | 26/05/11

      @Tom Perhaps they were talkng about separation of church and mental state?

    • marley says:

      03:28pm | 26/05/11

      Well, the Holy Roman Emperor certainly didn’t teach it.

    • gragra says:

      09:09am | 26/05/11

      Erick.. Liberalism? Isn’t that in itself an ideology?
      In a Country that has, as it’s Head of State the Head of the Anglican Church, and as it’s alternative Prime Minister a sworn servant of the Roman Catholic Church how can we expect the Constitution to be upheld? The separation, as held by both the American and Australian Constitutions, is tenuous at best. We ‘allow’ the Constitution to be tinkered with because we can’t be bothered screaming out about the tinkering. We’ve become a pretty pathetic bunch really. How is it tinkered with? Well, let’s look at the Christian holidays. Laws made by Governments, State or Federal, decree that Easter and Christmas should be observed by granting holidays. These days off are
      taken by all who qualify, whether those vacationers are Christian or not. As I’m one of the “not”, why should I be deprived of the right to work, or to open my pub, or simply go to the club. Why? Because the Governments of both the USA and Australia have made a law based on religion beliefs. Not a law that eminates from some ancient moral belief pre-dating Christian propaganda, (there are plenty of those), but a law directly and solely derived from the strange beliefs of that now minority section of those affected.
      Theocracy is not ideocracy, (i think I made that up), but the two are easily, sometimes surruptitiously combined, with one having more effect on the other than is socially desireable.
      Anyone disagreeing with the above should recall the split in the ‘50’s Labor Party when the Catholics decided that Labor policy was at odds to their own Catholic-guided ideology. Paradoxically, it seems our Constitution is best served by having an atheistic Prime Minister rather than having a committed christian. By the way, Rohan Rivett, our last esteemed newspaper editor, was once criticised by some church dignitary for using the phrase,‘committed christian”. ” All christians should be committed “, the Bishop thundered. “Yes, quite so”, softly replied the great man.

    • Michael says:

      12:49pm | 26/05/11

      who is this head of state you speak of that is also head of the anglican church?

    • david says:

      01:05pm | 26/05/11

      There is no easter holiday in the US.

    • chris t says:

      07:54pm | 26/05/11

      um Michael, our own country.

    • AdamC says:

      09:14am | 26/05/11

      Um, why is the holocaust listed along with the crusades and (obliquely) the frondes as a religious conflict? What an appalling ignorance of history, the nature of anti-semitism and Nazi ideology, especially for someone with such a long beard.

      And I doubt many thinking people would approve of incorporating Sharia concepts into Australian law, harping on about theocracies and conscience votes is distracting and irrelevant. Talk about pushing barrows; I think someone’s agenda is showing.

    • marley says:

      10:06am | 26/05/11

      But since elements of the Muslim community here are pushing for the introduction of sharia law (have a look at Keyser Trad’s article on the Drum) it’s not in fact an irrelevant distraction. It’s an issue that does need to be addressed.

    • HappyCynic says:

      10:28am | 26/05/11

      Anti-religion vs. religion is still a political and religious conflict.

      And the nature of anti-semitism has existed for a long, long time.  Both political organisations and religious organisations of all flavours, including christians, muslims, right-wing dictators, left wing dictators and more, have attempted to destroy us.  All of them have failed miserably.  Pretty inept bunch of losers if you ask me smile

      Anyone who attempts to screw over a religion, any religion, even their own, could be legitimately accused of starting a religious conflict.

    • James1 says:

      10:46am | 26/05/11

      I took the Holocaust thing as placing German anti-Semitism within a historical context of Christians hating Jews for killing Jesus.  The Nazis took this longstanding religious hatred and made it political.  You are right though, in that the connection is vastly oversimplified.

    • AdamC says:

      11:20am | 26/05/11

      Marley, my point is that the issue of Sharia law in Australia is totally distinct from whether Australia has conscience votes or becomes a theocracy. Even if Australia implemented aspects of Sharia law, we wouldn’t be a theocracy. The author is justing engaging in intellectual rat-baggery and rhetorical distraction.

      HappyCynic, I disagree. As an agnostic If I toss a rock at a Zoroastrian, I am not necessarily starting a religious conflict, unless the term is to become meaningless. The holocaust, for example, was an ethnic conflict based on racist Nazi ideology, itself based on junk eugenics. It had absolutely nothing to do with religious disputes.

      Anothetr example is the war in the Pacific. While the Americans and Japanese (by and large) followed different religions, the conflict clearly arose due to Japanese territorial rivalry with the US and its desire to annexe sources of strategic resources.

      And what any of that has to do with the moral relativists of the multi-cult considering the implementing of islamic traditions of jurisprudence (ie Sharia) into Australia is completely beyond me!

    • Socrates of The Hills (NSW) says:

      09:35am | 26/05/11

      Why don’t you friggen atheists, agnostics and Muslims bugger off to another country, and leave Australia to we Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddists etc

    • Peter says:

      11:33am | 26/05/11

      Excuse me? Who are you to tell me, being an athiest, to bugger off? Freedom of religion and freedom from religion is our right!

    • Harquebus says:

      12:03pm | 26/05/11

      Make me.

    • Soctrates of The Hills (NSW) says:

      12:20pm | 26/05/11

      Section 116 of the Constitution says “Freedom of Religion”, not from religion.  So you atheists can piss off for not conforming and abiding by the Constitution - ROFLMFAO !!!!!!!!!!!

    • Tedd says:

      12:24pm | 26/05/11

      Typical special pleading for a special place, eh So-crates?

    • Mike says:

      01:00pm | 26/05/11

      What about the Black Fella and the Dreamtime? Should they bugger off as well?

      Fookin Eejit

    • Mark says:

      01:24pm | 26/05/11

      Socrates - as I Catholic even I take offence to this racist tripe. I welcome religious & non-religious alike. As long as we can intellectual dialog regarding our beliefs (creation v evolution) then come one come all.

      BTW - Creation & evolution sit side by side in harmony. I know the scientific community of this blog will disagree with venom but each one can assist the other.

    • Socrates of The Hills (NSW) says:

      01:31pm | 26/05/11

      @ Mike:

      Anybody that believes in a rainbow serpent as their god is OK by me. Hell, I even agree that the oyster shell mounds they left around the coastline (which they call middens) are sacred sites as well. They better start protecting them though with these rising sea levels. II too have a dream - that one day most of the blackfellas would get a bloody job, instead of relying on me all the time for their grog, gambling and smoke money !!!!!!

    • Chris L says:

      08:38am | 27/05/11

      Back under your bridge Socrates!

    • Govt@FauxCitizen says:

      09:37am | 26/05/11

      Truer words were never spoken,,,,,,,,,One fine Sunday about 35 years ago I was at church and there was an elderly woman praying and chanting on her knees in front of the icons, at the end of service I was speaking with our preist and I mentioned to him that I thought the woman was devout, to wich he replied,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,  “:THE FANATICS OF ANY ORGANISATION ARE IT’S WORST ENEMIES”,,,,,, his reply still resonates in my ears to this day. Having said that, the real dilema here is that the state and others are now re-defining religion by ignoring marriage vowes, sanctioning adultery/bigamy, and inevitably one day with the help of squeaky wheel fanatics, accepting gay marriage as legitimate in the eyes of GOD, of course politicians and celebrities espousing atheism and worst of all the abusers of trust within religious groups, all of wich is destroying the core of religions rather than reinforcing the “ORDER” a truly polite, peaceful and civil society needs in this earthly sardine tin. GoFor Six, QUEENSLANDER!!!!

    • AJ says:

      11:52am | 26/05/11

      Err, actually the government isnt touching religion. You can follow your religion as much as you want, that doesnt mean that people who dont share your views need to adhere by them. Hence changes in laws. Having the state recognise gay marriage has nothing to do with god, or you (unless you are gay), or your religion. Thats kind of what this article is about, separation of church and state.

      If your religion relies on state laws to maintain its ‘order’, then maybe people dont actually want to follow your religion, and are merely doing so due to familial loyalty, indoctrination, etc.

    • Govt@FauxCitizen says:

      08:10am | 27/05/11

      @ AJ, does the power vested in me by the state mean any thing to you? And does the church finalise divorces?,  the only reason gays want the state to recognise same sex marriages is so a minister or preist cannot refuse to marry under the anti-discrimination laws. Finally, my religion does not need the state to legally sanction marriage and divorce nor laws and rules shoved down the throats of its followers to behave as decent humans, but those powers were usurped a bit at a time by the state.

    • Mark says:

      09:41am | 26/05/11

      I find this whole topic a little bizarre and usurped by too many emotions. For example, we have a law against murder. This is a state sanctioned law.

      Yet, why do we have it? Because of religious conviction that murdering is wrong and immoral i presume (well at least that’s the historic understanding). Is this a merging of Church and State? But what’s the alternative? Murder is wrong because of secular humanist philosophy. Either way, the state is driven by religious or ideological convictions.

      I see the same applying to SSM. Some say no, some say yes, but ultimately both positions argue from an ideological ot religious worldview and push for that recognition from the State..

      So i see the whole argument as a moot point. There will always be some form of relationship between Church and State. The debate would be better focused around which Church should have most influence; Christian, Islamic or Humanist. And until secular humanists recognise that what they promote is a religous ideology, then the debate really goes nowhere.

    • marley says:

      10:04am | 26/05/11

      No, I think you’re putting the cart before the horse.  Most religions have codes of conduct or ethics which arose out of the cultural norms of their day.  It wasn’t the Bible that introduced “thou shalt not kill” out of the blue.  Murder has always been wrong, and was considered so long before Christianity or Islam were ever dreamt of.  The Bible simply identified some of the key ethical and social taboos of its day, and incorporated them into its own value system. 

      Laws will always be driven by ethical, moral and social considerations - but that is not the same thing as being driven by religious ones.

    • Mark says:

      10:55am | 26/05/11

      @marley,
      But are not ” ethical, moral and social considerations” always driven from a worldview/ideology? Any ethical or social decision is always made from a founding assumption, call that Christian, secular or whatever. This is my point! We need to decide which assumption is best, since inevitably it will intrude on the state.
      Re your first point, i don’t really care and i assume you will have a hard time proving it. How can you prove the Bible adapted social norms, not the reverse. After all, where was the law and consequence for idolatry in the surrounding nations of the OT. As far as i know, the ‘pagans’ worshipped multiple gods not one God like Israel. Regardless, we are talking about our country now, which undeniably sees murder as wrong because of our religous heritage.

    • Tom says:

      11:30am | 26/05/11

      Mark and Marley, great blogs. The key issue seems to be the cross-over that (always) exists between a society’s norms, its laws and their belief sets. Those factors probably determine the survival and quality of life of that society.

      In its time, “The meek shall inherit the earth” easily translated to “Don’t dick with the Romans or you are dead meat.” It probably still has relevance today.

      The converse might be the hijacking of the norms, rules and belief sets by whackos in the media, governments, judiciary and churches respectively . These might determine a society’s destruction.

    • Chris L says:

      08:54am | 27/05/11

      “How can you prove the Bible adapted social norms, not the reverse.” -

      One example would be the Code of Hammurabi. While still mentioning at least one god it certainly predated the events described in the bible by 1,700 years. It is also identified as an amendment to existing laws. The fact is that it would be pretty much impossible to pinpoint when laws first came into being.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi

      Also our rules against murder, theft and assault are pretty neatly explained by evolution. A species that feeds upon itself is not as likely to prosper as one that works together for mutual benefit. Have a look at the animals of the wild and you will see they, too, follow similar codes without the need for religion.

    • jimbo says:

      09:44am | 26/05/11

      Can I take it then Reg that you are not all that keen on religion?

    • Reg Whiteman says:

      10:08am | 26/05/11

      Jimbo - you can take it that I absolutely loathe and despise all and every religion - and have done since I was beaten into unconsciousness at the age of 6 by a Sister of the Good Samaritan.

      I can not imagine an ideology that is more corrupt, filthy, murderous and backward than the collective monotheistic religions currently trying to dominate the world.

    • Steven says:

      12:07pm | 26/05/11

      @Reg.

      So let me get this straight.  You hate any and all religion, simply because you received a beating from a SotGS?

      Shouldn’t your hatred be directed toward the Sister who beat you?  Unless she proclaimed to be acting under some sort of Holy authority, even then, wouldn’t you hate the person doing it instead?

      My dad beat me many times over my childhood.  That doesn’t mean that I hate of all humanity, humanity fails quite often, but that doesn’t mean that I would “... absolutely loathe and despise…” all people.  Such a strong general view to have don’t you think?

      It’s becoming quite frustrating to read about the seemingly claustrophobic pressure that religion in playing in the lives of people, you still wake up everyday, go to work, spend time with friends and family, eat the food you want, watch what you want to watch etc.  It’s funny to me to read of those with a belief, being ridiculed of believing in a “make believe” entity when they seem to be under their own belief of being pressured by this so-called religious monster which is out to get them and their lives.

      I belong to a faith, but belonging to a faith doesn’t mean that I universally agree that the actions and misinterpretations of others in faith based leadership positions who use that position to manipulate and terrorize others is true or correct.

      My point is, is that ‘mankind’ fails at times, this includes mankind even in or out of the religious context.  Pointing the finger at an entire group simply because of the action of one person just doesn’t make any sense to me.  In fact, it’s quite an extreme view don’t you think?

      Someone on here wrote something along the lines of the fanatics of any organisation are it’s worst enemies… hmm.  Food for thought?

    • Timmy says:

      12:13pm | 26/05/11

      It is sad Reg that you were beaten. It is also sad that that experience helps you to judge a religion by its malpractice.

      I was once unreasonably punished/bullied by a teacher who was an atheist. Of course judging all atheists by her treatment of me would be a bit harsh, however, because atheist logically must assert moral relativism, I can judge her actions as being completely consistent with her beliefs.

    • Bev says:

      02:21pm | 26/05/11

      Steven says:12:07pm | 26/05/11
      Pointing the finger at an entire group simply because of the action of one person just doesn’t make any sense to me.  In fact, it’s quite an extreme view don’t you think?

      Have to agree which why feminism is so nasty because that is exactly what they do.

    • Chris L says:

      09:06am | 27/05/11

      “because atheist logically must assert moral relativism, I can judge her actions as being completely consistent with her beliefs” -

      Timmy, it isn’t atheists who are told to stone unruly teenagers, farmers who sow differing crops & people wearing differing cloths to death.

    • Lisa says:

      09:45am | 26/05/11

      The Bible tells us very clearly that politics and religion do not mix.  In John 6:15 it states that “Jesus, knowing they (the Jews) were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain all alone.”  Jesus then told a Roman Governor “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my Kingdom were part of this world, by attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews.  But, as it is , my kingdom is not from this source.”  So God’s own perfect son did not want to be involved in politics.  Says it all really.

    • Randy says:

      10:39am | 26/05/11

      The bible is a fairy tale written to control the masses.  Intelligence and religion do not mix it seems.  There is no ‘god’, nor a jesus.  I do know a guy called Heyzeus, if that makes you feel any better. Pretty sure it’s just his nickname though.

    • Lisa says:

      10:54am | 26/05/11

      Well Randy, you must be really pissed that our whole calendar revolves around the birth of Jesus.

    • TheRealDave says:

      11:30am | 26/05/11

      Yes Lisa, because no-one had Calendars before Jesus….....

      *yawn*

    • AJ says:

      12:02pm | 26/05/11

      Hey Lisa,
      you must be pissed that the birthday of jesus that our calendar supposedly revolves around (I would argue it revolves around the new year?) is not in fact jesus’ birthday, but a pagan winter solstice festival. Jesus’ birthday is believed to be in May.

    • Tom says:

      12:39pm | 26/05/11

      Randy, “The bible is a fairy tale written to control the masses.  Intelligence and religion do not mix it seems.” I say intelligence and masses do not mix.

      I believe that the bible was written with good intentions towards the masses who by nature are stupid.

      Fairy tale or not, it is hard to prove whether greater good or evil has stemmed from the bible.

    • Lisa says:

      01:29pm | 26/05/11

      Hey AJ,  my point was that we are in the year 2011AD.  I’m not talking about the months of the year.  And what exact day or month Jesus was born is not really important.  It was at his death that he asked us to “keep doing this in remembrance of me”, ie the passing of the bread and wine.

    • Lisa says:

      01:49pm | 26/05/11

      And AJ, you were right about Christmas being based on a pagan celebration.  Nothing at all to do with Jesus birth.  But if you want an approximate time of year he was born, it was about October.  Shepherds wouldn’t exactly being tending to sheep in the fields in the night on December 25.  Too cold!! Brrrr.

    • Mike says:

      01:58pm | 26/05/11

      Agreed Tom.

      None of is as stupid as all of us.

    • fml says:

      02:35pm | 26/05/11

      Thats an interesting concept Lisa,

      How long will religion stand idol if the government started telling its adherents how they should be preaching? Yet religion feels they have the right to tell the government to force everyone how to live?

    • Lisa says:

      07:20pm | 26/05/11

      Hi fml, if a religious organisation really were serious about themselves they wouldn’t put up with a government telling them how to preach. This will probably happen one day because the book of Revelations tell us that in the future the UN and political leaders will turn on organised religion.  This would have to be because of the wars fought in the name of religion(false).

    • Freddy says:

      09:50am | 26/05/11

      If all liberal democracies lead to birthrates that are below replacement level, then obviously they’re not long for this world, atleast in the current form.

    • Socrates of The Hills (NSW) says:

      10:32am | 26/05/11

      I used to do my bit for the Aussie birth rate, but alas, now that I’m 55 ......

    • Scooter says:

      10:08am | 26/05/11

      History 101 - The separation of secular powers and instructional instutions from those of the State stems back to Friday 13, 1307 and its influence of the formations of the Masonic Movement.  And thank the Good Lord, because look at how long it has taken in Western Society.  Not that matters because the Religious Fruitcakes are still proposing the end of the world in October.

    • Anthony says:

      10:09am | 26/05/11

      The best ‘modern’ example you can think of is Calvin in Canada? A bunch of others in the ‘modern’ world spring to mind. Iran under the Ayatollahs, Afghanistan under the Taliban, Saudi Arabia (even though it’s a kingdom), are just a few that spring easily to mind.

    • David LD says:

      10:18am | 26/05/11

      Interesting article.

      Perhaps we could start by getting rid of the tacit endorsement of Christianity as the country’s religion by removing standing order 38 from the House and standing order 50 from the Senate.

      I won’t hold my breath, the vested interests of the Christian Lobby combined with the utter lack of conviction from almost all of our currently elected representatives and senators make the idea impossible.

    • Forgotten Australian Family says:

      10:21am | 26/05/11

      Why is it that in Queensland, the Chairman of the Anglican DIocese of Brisbane is also the Chief Justice? I have personally experienced this Diocese’s brand of “justice”. It is a travesty, and perhaps the confusion between Church and State right here in Queensland is leading to more than ‘Miscarriages”, as Mr Terry O’Gorman chose to characterize my (legitimate) complaint.

    • Socrates of The Hills (NSW) says:

      11:29am | 26/05/11

      Well if Terry O’Gorman was supporting you, you must have been in the wrong inter alia (and all that other legal latin jargon)  - hehehehehehehehe

    • dave says:

      10:24am | 26/05/11

      Pfft where will this leave the Jedi

    • Mike says:

      02:32pm | 26/05/11

      Until people start building their own working lightsabers, the same place they’ve always been.

    • Hardly Reasonable says:

      10:27am | 26/05/11

      The whole separation of church and state has become a strident catch-cry in recent years. It completely ignores the fact that Australia is (sorry, was)  a Christian country. In fact, the opening words of our constitution are “humbly relying on the blessings of almighty God…”. Federal parliament opens with a prayer. Our whole legal system very much derives from Judaeo-Christian principles. For example, why is it wrong to steal, to lie (perjury), to kill…? These things are wrong because of our beliefs. Other cultures have different beliefs and so some of these things are not wrong to them.

      Any politician who says that he will not allow his personal religious (or atheistic) beliefs to influence his political actions is either a liar or a hypocrite - and is not someone who should be in government. We all act according to our beliefs (except for cowards) whether we admit it or not.  IF, as one commentator her has suggested, anyone who professes a religious belief should be removed from office, so should anyone who professes no belief. After all atheism is as much a system of beliefs as religion - it’s just harder to find a rationale for it.

      To bring up the crusades and the inquisition as examples of the worst of religion is to display an ignorance of history and an anti-Christian bias.  For instance, which inquisition is being referred to here: Spanish, Roman, English (under Henry VIII) or one of the others? It completely ignores the benefits society has as a result of Christianity - charitable organisations, hospitals and universities, for example.

      The article is hardly an example of dispassionate, reasoned debate. It has a barrow to push. And it’s all downhill.

    • AJ says:

      12:10pm | 26/05/11

      Laws against murder and stealing are not a religion creation. Stop being dumb.

      Saying that it is harder to find a rationale for atheism is a bit rich though. Lack of evidence would mean that atheism is the rational (see what I did there?) state until proven otherwise.

    • Luce says:

      02:20pm | 26/05/11

      Hardly reasonable (apt name?), I have to agree with AJ on this one. It’s much harder to justify a belief in god when you really look at the logic. Religious belief is one of the biggest flaws in human thinking and reasoning an apparently sane person can have. The only reason its not branded as insanity is purely because so many people have it. Just think about that for a minute.

      And it is possible to go about your work without influence from religious belief. For example some of the top scientists alive today are also christians, however they still approach science with the utmost objectivity and appreciation for reason.

    • Cranky ol' Bugga says:

      10:27am | 26/05/11

      Both the Labor & Coalition parties in Canberra are loaded to the gills with right-wing Catholics, including members of Opus Dei, the ultra loony right of the Catholic Church Inc.  These people simply cannot leave their religious beliefs at the door and think its their mission to enforce their beliefs on the 76% of the population who are not Catholics. Oh, the new NSW Liberal Government is just as bad, as we will see over the next 4 years!

    • Dee says:

      01:20pm | 26/05/11

      Cranky ol’ Bugga what religon is Tony Abbott? Isnt Julia Gillard a non believer.

    • Tchom says:

      10:38am | 26/05/11

      My only problem with religion is superstition being used as a moral blueprint and then being turned into legislation. Sure, there are the sensible ones like ‘thou shalt not kill’ and ‘thou shalt not steal’ because it prevents harm coming to people. Its when it gets into the stuff like ‘gays can’t get married because a 4000 year old book says so’ or ‘women shouldn’t be allowed to wear a certain article of clothing because it’s really scary and some guy robbed a gas station wearing one once’ that I start to worry.

    • mark says:

      11:38am | 26/05/11

      who or what decides what is sensible and harmful? What is the moral foundation that you suggest?

    • Luce says:

      02:49pm | 26/05/11

      @mark, common sense? Ethics derived out of reasoned debate, based on harm minimization, increase in benefit, freedom and welfare of all? Think ancient Greek philosophers etc.

    • John says:

      10:53am | 26/05/11

      Christianity is very important for keeping the family, politicians and culture from decaying. If you want to get rid of christianity, you want to get rid of the family, you want corrupt politicians and you want a decaying culture. Cultural Marxism seems to be behind the attack on Christianity.

      In the EU council, which was created and founded by Marxist Lenin and Stalin lovers. They gave christianity a special place with the other religions, which was at the bottom of the garbage tip. Christianity was not even give small special place in the EU Marxist Constitution.

    • TheRealDave says:

      11:25am | 26/05/11

      yes…because ONLY Christians have families and support them.

      And you wonder why people ahve issues with thought processes like yours? Or rather, the lack thereof….

    • Luce says:

      03:00pm | 26/05/11

      This may come as a shock to you, John, but I am an atheist, as are those in my immediate family, and (I just don’t know how we manage this without god’s watchful gaze) we love each other and support each other through both good and bad times. The ability to love and be moral is innate within people. It doesn’t need the rubber stamp of jesus to make it valid.

      and p.s. religion and religious people have definitely contributed their fair share (if not more than?) of evil to the world, not to mention corrupt politicians and leaders. I fail to see how the world would be worse off without it.

    • Tired says:

      11:00am | 26/05/11

      Another anti-Christian diatribe from the atheist left….yawn.
      Look you ignorant tree huggin freaks,Aust and it’s constitution was adopted under Judo-Christian principles.
      The Lords prayer is spoken in Parliament before Question Time.
      One swears in court on a bible:“so help me God”
      So either get with the programe or move to another planet:Uranus

    • Mike says:

      02:28pm | 26/05/11

      Judo-christian? Does mean if you don’t agree with someones ideals, you can hiptoss them into submission?

      Or did you mean judeo-christian.

    • fml says:

      02:48pm | 26/05/11

      The Australian constitution was implemented on Jan 1st 1901, The term Judeo-Christen was created in America in the 1940’s.

    • Brad says:

      03:12pm | 26/05/11

      I would but clearly your head is already occupying the space.

      -A right wing atheist

    • TheRealDave says:

      04:03pm | 26/05/11

      Judo Christians ATTACK!!!

      HEEEEEEYYYYYYYAAAAAA!!!!

    • Daniel says:

      11:10am | 26/05/11

      Abbott will do his best to unite them again….thankfully.

    • Alex Clapp says:

      11:14am | 26/05/11

      I am surprised that Dean thinks that the Separation of Church and State does not exist here in Australia.  The church exercises no structural role in the political systems of our nation and the state exercises no structural role in our religious systems.

      Different bits and pieces of the Church may exert influence as lobby groups, but the so to many sectors of our society - Pubs & Clubs, Sporting Groups, AMA etc.

      Or has Dean decided that the presence of some things religious within the practical expressions of public life is evidence that the Separation is incomplete?

      I think that a generation ago we were regarded as living in a secular age in which a persons religious views were of no consequence.  Since 9/11, in my view, and particularly over the past 5 years, we have moved into a post-secular age in which people’s religious views have become of great consequence, both to those who are religious and those who are not.  This, however does not mean that there is a break-down of the Separation of Church and State.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      01:15pm | 26/05/11

      In the US it is illegal to teach scripture in state schools, why is it practiced here?

    • AdamC says:

      01:29pm | 26/05/11

      Sony B Goode, because the US has gone way beyond both its secular traditions and common sense. You can thank the ACLU and some terrible supreme court appointments for that. Thus far, Australia has been able to tell the difference between being secular and persecuting the religious.

    • TheRealDave says:

      01:41pm | 26/05/11

      well…since this isn’t the US for starters…..

    • Sony B Goode says:

      02:38pm | 26/05/11

      The separation of church and state means just that. No government resources should be used to further church goals. If you allow one scripture then someone will ask for all of them.

    • Chris L says:

      10:39am | 27/05/11

      @AdamC - In what way is ommitting scripture from state schools a persecution of religion?

      I keep hearing about “atheist attacks on religion” when all we’re doing is trying to ensure people are not forced to follow religious rules or observations against their will. Religion is for church/temple/mosque/etc. and for the private home, not state sponsored entities and events.

    • Francis says:

      11:28am | 26/05/11

      As a person of European descent, I feel personally indebted to the crusaders for defending Europe against the Islamic invaders.

      I think it is ironic that those who died defending the western culture that formed the building blocks of modern western society are such a popular target for bashing.

    • John says:

      11:51am | 26/05/11

      This very true! I have huge respect for the crusaders, i admire the Templars. We exist today because they held their lancers high and their swords against the enemy’s of christian Europeans.

    • marley says:

      02:11pm | 26/05/11

      You’re confusing the Crusaders who went off to liberate the Holy Land from the Muslims of the 11 and 12 centuries, with the troops of the Holy Roman Empire who fought off the Turks 4 centuries later.  And by the way, it was those very non-Aryan slavs - Poles and Lithuanians - who drove the Turks back.

    • Simon in Sydney says:

      11:32am | 26/05/11

      If the Holocaust demonstrates anything, then it is about the horrors of combining politics and atheism.

    • AJ says:

      12:28pm | 26/05/11

      you do know that hitler was a christian, and that he said that he viewed christianity as the foundation of germanys national morality.

    • Simon in Sydney says:

      12:48pm | 26/05/11

      Not so. Hitler was an atheist who regarded Christianity as an invention of Jews. He toyed with taking Germany back to its ancient Gods before realising that was doomed. He then took advantange of the church’s fears of Soviet communism to promote a sort of German Christian church, but it was never more than manipulation of other people’s Christianity. He saw morality as coming from the greater ‘Volk’, ideally untainted by any religion.

    • John says:

      12:59pm | 26/05/11

      You forget that he believed in Aryan blood which he stated was the basis of Aryan morality and the cause of civilization. He tied it into the idea of race and socialism, stating that Aryan’s help each other out, instead of being leading by self-interests.

    • AJ says:

      01:09pm | 26/05/11

      I have yet to read anything that undeniably proves if hitler believed in god, but the fact is that someone who says they are christian, was a member of a church, was raised by christians, and promoted christianity seems pretty christian to me.

      My point is that he didnt combine politics and atheism, if anything he combined politics and religion, his personal belief here is all but irrelevant.

    • Luce says:

      03:16pm | 26/05/11

      Hitler combined politics with whatever would get him more power at any particular moment, not because he believed religion or atheism to be fundamentally correct. The religiosity, or lack there of, of a particular moral system seems wholly irrelevant and not what dictated Hitler’s movements, so in a sense using Hitler as an argument for or against christianity or atheism is useless. He was just an evil man who’s actions bare no relevance to the implicit morality of religion or atheism.

    • Chris L says:

      01:02pm | 27/05/11

      Luce, you may be correct, but when religious people bring AH up as a way to denigrate atheism (which they inevitably seem to do, about three times so far on this one blog) I enjoy pointing out the religious connections he had while challenging them to point out one time he mentioned being an atheist (they usually point to him wanting to destroy the existing church, but this was to replace it with another church so definately not atheist).

      Simon in Sydney, AH was brought up a Catholic. He mentioned god and Jesus in every public address. He maintained a concordance with the Vatican (and received birthday greetings from them every year). He had the belts of the SA adorned with “Gott Mit Uns”. He proclaimed the creation of the new church of Germany, and he never once identified as an atheist.

    • Simon of Sydney says:

      06:46pm | 28/05/11

      I refer you to sources such as http://bartonpaullevenson.com/Hitler.html, with a fairly extensive bibliography, for the argument that Hitler was atheist. As to using AH to criticise atheism, it was the original Punch article that cited Hitler to attack religion. In the absence of such an attack on mixing politics and religion, I would never cite AH to attack atheism or anything else, on the adage that anyone citing him has already lost the argument. I would simply say politics should be linked with pretty well everything, if it is really going to be democratic.

    • Chris L says:

      11:30am | 29/05/11

      @Simon - Your link showed a number of quotes from Borman. Yep, Borman was an atheist and if religious people wanted to point that out I couldn’t argue, but I guess Borman is a less juicy target than Hitler.

      However, you said: “Hitler was an atheist who regarded Christianity as an invention of Jews.”

      You were either mistaken, in which case I corrected you, or you were lying. What was that commandment about bearing false witness?

    • Simon of Sydney says:

      10:14am | 30/05/11

      Martin Bormann recorded private conversations with AH, including those quoted at http://library.flawlesslogic.com/religion.htm. For example, as also quoted in the reference I previously cited, on the night of 11 and 12 July 1941, he said, “The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew.”
      I appreciate there is debate about AH’s real beliefs, if any, but I believe that private conversations among confidants are more likely to reflect the truth of the man than political spin. They make it clear, in my mind and others’ minds although clearly not everyone’s mind, that by the time he was an adult, AH was an atheist.
      Not that I imagine atheism being his motivation, but I do think that had he been Christian in his beliefs, there would never have been a Holocaust. In all the circumstances, I think it remains ridiculous for the original article to argue that AH (or any of the other examples) was a reason not to mix politics and religion.

    • John says:

      11:33am | 26/05/11

      Christian lobby? Today’s christianity sits silent while criminals go around on a criminal rampage. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya. Jesus would of taken his gloves off and given it to these guys in the teeth if he was alive. I’m not impressed with the pope’s. They should be condemning Obama, Sarkozy, Cameron, Bush all to hell for all their evillll. I’m surprised there is political cohesion with certain churchs groups. Christianity today is corrupted, they are too silent on issues. They should speak out like Jesus did!

      Like This!! GO JESUS!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PynPakQ38_o

    • Kika says:

      01:33pm | 26/05/11

      Agreed. This is the issue - lack of Christian cohesive which has corroded the fundamental core of the global church.

    • Harquebus says:

      11:59am | 26/05/11

      Why does the preamble say “humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God”? Why do they say the Lord’s prayer at the beginning of each parliament?

    • Ben of the Plains says:

      12:01pm | 26/05/11

      It’s really very simple. Unless you can prove the existence of your god/s by current scientific methods, keep your bloody religious beliefs the heck out of government.

      I don’t expect anyone else to have to live according to the rules I made up for my imaginary god, so why should I have to live by yours?

    • Socrates of The Hills (NSW) says:

      12:29pm | 26/05/11

      I agree !!!!!  Global warming is a fraudulent religion perpetrated by a few commie scientists with their snouts in the government trough. They’d agree the earth is flat if there is a buck in it !!!!!!!

      There is no independent scientist in private enterprise that is a supporter - only the leftoid chardonnay sipping, latte drinking, navel gazers on the government payroll through “independent” government or UN committees funded by the taxpayer or Professors of Economics funded by government grants to their universities. Agreed science my arse !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • mark says:

      12:31pm | 26/05/11

      but you do Ben. Let’s assume you beleive in SSM or euthenasia. You believe this because of a belief system you have, regardless of what name you give to it.
      Others do not, for the same reason.

      Either way, we have to all live according to the rules of others gods, imaginary or otherwise.

    • Luce says:

      03:52pm | 26/05/11

      mark, there’s a big big difference between reasoned debate about morality, with empirical evidence and logic to back up arguments, and deriving “morality” or beliefs from a being who’s existence is neither logical nor provable. Savvy?

    • Rose says:

      12:29pm | 26/05/11

      So, we expect our politicians to leave their religious convictions at the door, but as soon as one appears in any way to abandon their core principles we crucify them for being ‘fake’.
      Tip for the next time you’re voting, work out the religious persuasion of your local candidates, the commitment they have to their chosen religion, how that has influenced their behaviour thus far and THEN…vote accordingly!

    • Soames says:

      12:52pm | 26/05/11

      “The Australian Constitution, however, (S. 116) states that ‘The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance …’ . It’s a fine point, “The commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion..”. This apparently includes exemption from land and other taxes, religious lobbyist influence, for example, Jim Wallace and others.  Establishing a religion induces a preconception of having by advantage, a lesser pecuniary impost, than ordinary residents in their struggle to purchase a home, as opposed to any religious nut who has an equally nutty following, to abuse the flawed intent of a ridiculous law. This is an abuse of Federal Governments’  of any persuasion, in regard to the Westminster doctrine of the separation of powers between church and state. No government has had the guts to repeal this scandalous law. It is in fact, endorsed survival for political parties, both minor and major,  and obnoxious dishonesty by so called religions, perpetrated for a couple of centuries in Australia, and today a laughable advantage for terrorist activity in this mostly deserted huge land mass.

    • Dennis says:

      01:09pm | 26/05/11

      The Greens are a broad church; the global warming / change is a major religion that believes it is prior to the age of enlightenment, and on and on

    • Carl Palmer says:

      02:29pm | 26/05/11

      Ha ha ha -  the picture reminds me of Phil Jones with hair & a beard trying to explain his AGW algorithm to the masses

    • Badwolf says:

      01:10pm | 26/05/11

      The logic that sharia is part of Muslim culture and thus should be allowed is a flawed one. By that logic on can argue that racism is a part of many Australians culture and thus should be allow so the anti discrimination act shouldn’t apply to them.

      So I stuff the Muslims and anyone else who wants special laws that only apply to their wacko minority group, because this is Australia and we believe in one law for all. So if you don’t like it your free to leave and find another country that’s suits your bs beliefs.

    • Socrates of The Hills (NSW) says:

      01:37pm | 26/05/11

      Malaysia is nice at this time of year

    • What the? says:

      01:18pm | 26/05/11

      At the end of the day, people who have a religion should not vote, simple as that. It should be left upto the real smart thinking atheists.

    • Kika says:

      01:47pm | 26/05/11

      Yeah that’s a society to be part of. Exclude some, only the others can vote. Otherwise called a dictatorship.

    • Brad says:

      03:18pm | 26/05/11

      Yeah Kika and they’re giving us a 5 for one deal too!

    • Luce says:

      03:56pm | 26/05/11

      You’d be no better than the religious bigots if you were to exclude religious people from voting.

    • Kika says:

      01:30pm | 26/05/11

      I like the frequent use of the Americanised ‘M-OZ-lem” instead of Muslim. Nice one.

      Look everyone has a set of beliefs and opinons on which they use to pass judgement on things. No one is completely impartial. Everyone comes with a history, an education (whatever or wherever that comes from) and a culture. All of those make up how that person’s brain computes things which outputs their moral judgement.

      We do have separate church and state. I believe the extreme “MOZLEMS” will want Sharia law here. But that’s just them being antagonistic wanting to sht stir. Most normal Muslims just want a recognition of their sharia law officially so it makes things easier for them when getting a divorce, getting married and all of these sorts of things. It’s no different to a Catholic seeking Vatican approval for an annulment. what’s the diff? Don’t get your knickers in a knot.

    • Socrates of The Hills (NSW) says:

      01:59pm | 26/05/11

      Mozlems, muslims, towel-heads, Islamists - shoot the bloody lot of ‘em. End of a world wide problem. No more terrorists !!!!!!!!!!!!

    • marley says:

      02:03pm | 26/05/11

      I’m sorry, but I don’t agree.  I think you’re missing the point.

      If Catholics decide to get an annulment, that’s a matter for them and the church.  However, to make it legal, there has to be civil divorce. Jews frequently resort to religious courts to organize their divorce - but again, the rulings of the religious court are religious only, and have no bearing on the civil matter. Jews also have to go through the secular, civil divorce process to make their religious divorce legal.

      And the law around civil divorce hinges on secular, not religious principles.  It gives both parties access to the courts to fight out matters of maintenance, division of property, custody of the children.  It provides recourse if one party feels wronged by the religious rulings of the rabbi, priest or imam.

      If Muslims wish to get a divorce, they, like Catholics and Jews, can always ask for a religious clearance from their imam, but the actual divorce should be in the courts, and the legal terms of the divorce should be in keeping with established Australian legal precedent. 

      No Muslim woman should be required to submit evidence that her marriage has been terminated according to sharia principles in order to get a divorce from a civil court, and no Muslim woman should be subjected to sharia principles on child custody if those are out of line with Australian law.  But that’s whats on the table.

      If Muslims want to live by sharia, providing its not in conflict with Australian law, fine - but sharia, or indeed any religious code, has no place in our legal system.  Everyone, whatever their beliefs, should be treated by the court in the same way, and should have equal access to its protections.

    • Kika says:

      02:19pm | 26/05/11

      Lovely attitude. I am proud to call you my fellow Australian.

    • marley says:

      03:39pm | 26/05/11

      @Kika - I hope that comment was directed at the anti-Socrates (no wise man, he) and not myself smile

    • Kika says:

      04:32pm | 26/05/11

      Socrates - not you. Lol.

    • Omegaman says:

      01:51pm | 26/05/11

      I believe in having a state church is superior to not having one.

      Orthodoxy is comforting and builds a real community and nation. The best countries have their own state-sanctioned religion. It enhances identity, whether you like it or not.

      Also, when everyone in a country pays lip service to the same religion it assists in preventing those with non-sanctioned religious views from seducing members of your family into something you don’t understand. And it prevents the division of loyalty between your country and your God.

      How many bad weddings have you been to where one party refuses to attend the service if its not in their own church! Solving the problem by not admitting to it early (by marrying in the park, next to the swings etc) is only a short term fix, divorce is more inevitable than it has to be.

      Finally, and most importantly, I can not see how any self-respecting muslim has the capacity to separate church and state. If a muslim chooses to separate church and state he has, by definition, rejected islam…and yet we insist on filling the country with people who profess this creed.

    • Luce says:

      04:06pm | 26/05/11

      Which ‘best’ countries are you talking about? Iran? Afghanistan? Somalia? Sudan? Yemen? Costa Rica? Greece? Yes, I’d definitely be better of living in one of those than in a secular democracy like Australia… ESPECIALLY as a woman who likes to speak her mind.

      Given, Finland and Denmark also have state sanctioned religions, but then again they also have some of the highest levels of non-belief as well… a connection, maybe?

    • andre says:

      01:56pm | 26/05/11

      As Christrian I agree on the separation of religion and state.
      Unfortunately secularists under the pretence of democracy and freedom from religion teach kids religion of Darwinism,disguised as “scientific fact” ,at shools so theere is no real separation, just tolerance to all except Christianity that was once a base of development of this country.
      Out of Darwinism come green mother eareth cultists, eugenists, marxists, you name it, while forbidding Christianity from public life , replacing it with man made religions.

    • marley says:

      03:37pm | 26/05/11

      Darwinism isn’t “religion” it’s scientific theory, and as close to being scientific fact as you can get with a theory that covers millions of years.  There’s one helluva lot of hard evidence to back the theory (fossils; examples of evolution in process in single-celled creatures; etc). 

      And by the way, only someone who doesn’t understand the theory of evolution could come up with a mother earth cult or eugenics, both of which are perversions of what Darwin thought.  Darwin himself was a man of religion, you know.

    • Luce says:

      04:10pm | 26/05/11

      Go do some reading on this so called “religion” that you claim Darwinism to be. If you have the capacity to understand scientific reasoning then you will see that it is actually very logical, and is backed up by mountains of evidence. The only evidence for Christianity, on the other hand, is…. well… I can’t think of any.

    • Matt F says:

      04:39pm | 26/05/11

      Darwinism isn’t a religion, nor is it scientific fact (which just about shows your lack of knowledge on the subject) it’s a scientific theory which happens to have more evidence to support it then any other theory on the same topic.

    • andre says:

      07:16pm | 26/05/11

      @ all the religious zealots below :
      a theory can be classifed as scientific if it is : testable, observable, and falsifiable meaning if it is not true it is possible to prove it by scientific experiments. Darwinism is none of the above. Statement :“dinosaurs became extinct as a result of meteorite hitting the earth some millions years ago” is a statement of faith , not science.
      Darwinism is based on blind faith that ie a bear given long enough time will become a seal.

      Get some real education.

    • Luce says:

      12:45am | 27/05/11

      Well andre, considering it’s a bit difficult to repeatedly test if dinosaurs were extinct by an asteroid (because we don’t have an abundance of dinosaurs and asteroids to test that with) we have to go on the evidence we have, being carbon dating, fossils, and the gigantic hole where the asteroid probably hit. Your use of semantics to try dodge this is pretty unconvincing, as is your claim that we need to “get some real education.” Can I ask where your “real education” came from?

    • Luke says:

      01:58pm | 26/05/11

      Is it unconstitutional that the Parliament of Australia says the Lord’s Prayer at the opening of events? I woudl have thought that was an observance.

    • Socrates of The Hills (NSW) says:

      02:17pm | 26/05/11

      And they recognise those damn blackfellas just before “The Lord’s Prayer” as well.  Yet another religion supported by Centrelink with special boxes to get more money from us. Oh, and happy sorry day - ROFLMFAO !!!!!!!!!!  What a friggen joke !!!!!!!!!!!

    • Obob says:

      02:57pm | 26/05/11

      The article states ...
      “Politics. Religion. Combine the two and the result can be very nasty indeed. Think about a short list: the Crusades, the Inquisition, New York and the twin towers, the Holocaust, massacre of the Huguenots. It appears that when Church and State are combined into one, horrific things can happen.”


      Yes, but what about all the horrific things that happened WITHOUT THE HELP OF religion. I think this list is much, much longer ...

      WW1, WW2, Genocide in Cambodia, Millions of Chinese murdered by atheist Mao, Millions Of Russians murdered by atheist Stalin, numerous massacres in Africa,  ... and the list goes on.

      The article is the usual anti-religious urban atheist claptrap.

    • Horse says:

      03:27pm | 26/05/11

      Plenty of religion asround when WWs 1 and 2 were started.  WW2 had a strong religious component - anti-semetism founded on years of it by Christians.

      Pol Pot was raised a catholic, and Stalin was Russian Orthodox, even being trained in a seminary.

    • Fiona says:

      03:11pm | 26/05/11

      Just an observation from one with no real passion about this subject, but…
      The Bible says ‘thou shalt not kill’, but how many times were the words ‘it was God’s will’ uttered when some catastrophe fell upon an individual or a nation and resulted in death? Like a poor child struck down with terminal illness, or a natural disaster that left thousands dead.

      Does this mean that God has a licence to kill?

    • Kika says:

      04:42pm | 26/05/11

      The Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) generally find that in Genesis it was explained that their is sadness, illness and calamity in the world because we were given free will, and in exercising free will Adam & Eve chose to defy God and take a bite of the forbidden fruit. From that point on they realised they were naked.. and so on and so forth. So basically because of the ‘original sin’ there will always be pain and suffering on earth until we are reunited once against by the Messiah’s return.

    • Our law is based on God's law says:

      03:29pm | 26/05/11

      Dean, at the time of the creation of The Australian Constitution, 99% of our citizens and lawmakers were Christians. Both English, and Australian law are based on God’s law. And you were going to separate that how?

    • Our law is based on God's law says:

      03:42pm | 26/05/11

      Correction on our law is based on God’s law.
      According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, in the year of Federation approximately 1% identified as ‘non-Christian’. The first census in 1911 showed 96% of Australians identified themselves as Christian.

    • Socrates of The Hills (NSW says:

      03:45pm | 26/05/11

      By importing/shipping more illegal economic Muslim aliens. There is a special on right now for them -  we get 5 for 1 - beats those TV deals where you buy one, get one free. Juliar has found a new commodity to trade in besides carbon credits. *sniggers uncontrollably*

    • TheRealDave says:

      04:01pm | 26/05/11

      Australian Law is based on somehting a little more realistic than ‘Gods Law’....much of its adapted down through the ages from Roman/Greek Law and eventually given to us via the British system.

      God wasn’t involved anywhere along the line…...unless he did it in disguise….like when he knocked up a shiela who was engaged to someone else….

    • Wearestardust says:

      04:06pm | 26/05/11

      Tosh and nonsense.  First, this comment is commiting a fallacy.  Things done by Christians do not make them essentially Christian.  At the time powered flight was invented, the US was overwhelmingly Christian.  So ought we not have separation of Church and QANTAS?  Secondly, it is simply factually wrong to say that our legal system is inherently Christian.  The law of common law countries has as its origin codification for consistency of diverse local decisions and practices in England themselves originating variously with Germanic and Danish/Norwegian practice.  As it happens, in the 17th Century there was a movement, called the Fifth Monarchists, who did want to replace England’s laws with a directly-biblically based (specifically, Mosaic) legal system.  These were considered dangerous and radical ideas, even during the times of the Barebones Parliament and the Protectorate.  The point is, even the Puritans didn’t make the mistake of confusing the legal system with the bible.

    • Based on God's law 1 says:

      04:42pm | 26/05/11

      Our law is based on God’s law in many different ways; I’ll mention a few.
      The Commentaries on the Laws of England are regarded as the authoritative and leading work on the development of English law and played a role in the development of the American legal system. They are the first methodical treatise on the common law suitable for a lay readership since at least the Middle Ages.

      William Blackstone, law professor and author of Commentaries states in Book 1, Chapter 1 Of The Absolute Right Of Individuals that “God’s law overrides all other law and if manmade law is not in line with God’s, it is not valid; no human laws should be suffered to contradict these, God’s laws must be obeyed, man is not to disobey God’s laws, must choose his actions within the limits of God’s laws, man can be happy only when he is obeying God’s law, Human law is not to violate God’s law” and so on.

    • Based on God's law 2 says:

      06:46pm | 26/05/11

      Quoting some of our royalty,
      Queen Elizabeth I (1553-1603), “Almighty Lord and everlasting God, vouchsafe, we beseech thee, to direct, sanctify, and govern, in the ways of thy laws, in the work of thy commandments, both here and ever ..”
      King George III (1738– 1820) and every British Monarch since,  “Maintain the Laws of God, causing Justice in Mercy to be executed in each country.” .. “ I cannot break this oath”.
      Queen Elizabeth II at her coronation titled ‘Defender of the Faith’ pledging ‘as a servant of the Lord’ to uphold and maintain to the utmost of her power the Laws of God and the true profession of the Gospel. ‘Our gracious Queen: to keep your majesty ever mindful of the Law and the Gospel of God as the Rule for the whole life and government of Christian Princes.’
      Queen Elizabeth II at her Golden Jubilee a few years ago, “May we all take the scriptures as our supreme rule of life. May we dedicate ourselves to God ..”

    • Based on God's law 3 says:

      07:01pm | 26/05/11

      The Opening Prayer at the First Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia was preceded by a hymn followed by the following prayers from the Duke of Cornwall (later King George V) Almighty God, we humbly beseech Thee to regard with Thy merciful favour the people of this land, now united in one Commonwealth. We pray Thee at this time to vouchsafe Thy special blessing upon the Federal Parliament now assembling for their first session and that Thou wouldst be pleased to direct and prosper all their consultations to the advancement of Thy glory and to the true welfare of the people of Australia, through Jesus Christ our Lord, who has taught us when we pray to say, Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name, Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, in earth as is in heaven..
      The Duke continued, It is his Majesty’s earnest prayer that this union so happily achieved may under God’s blessing prove an instrument for promoting the welfare and …

      The oath of allegiance as signed by each of the senators and members finishes with the words, ‘So help me God.’ This is the same still today as prescribed by the Constitution to current new parliamentarians.

      There’s stacks more ways which show that our laws are based on God’s laws.

    • Peter says:

      04:38pm | 26/05/11

      I would like to ask “Our law is based on God’s law says” (OLISBAOGL) which god? Millions have been killed in history over this question. Section 166 of the Australian was drafted because of this. The law has nothing to do with a god and everything to do with the people we elect to make them. A law based on “God’s Law” does not need a democracy since all is already revealed in scripture. That is a recipe for disaster as we have seen in Iran and Afghanistan. If OLISBAOGL wants this for a legislative process I suggest he emigrate to such a country.

    • Our law is based on God's law says:

      08:18pm | 26/05/11

      Merely quoting history Peter.

      Section 116 was drafted because The Convention decided that the insertion of Section 116 would attract support from non-religious voters and from voters whose religions were marginalized.

      It was stated that the government couldn’t legally prohibit, never had nor was ever expected to prohibit any one the free expression of religion.

      With 96% of the population identifying as Christians it is obvious that to prohibit the freedom of (this particular) religion was at the time of the Melbourne Convention in 1897, not in the realm of possibilities.

    • TheRealDave says:

      05:59pm | 26/05/11

      I thought they were Byzantine lands ie the Eastern Roman Empires lands ??

    • skepdad says:

      04:50pm | 26/05/11

      A question of the definition of “The Commonwealth” in relation to establishing a national religion: does this apply to the individual states? For example, could Queensland, which to my knowledge has no such constitutional prohibition against establishment of an official religion, adopt an official state faith?  Or is Queensland considered an officer of the Commonwealth and thus subject to the federal Constitution?

      Pardon my ignorance.

    • jim morris says:

      05:18pm | 26/05/11

      Karen Armstrong has a book which compares fundamentalist christians, muslims, and jews. A very good read because she reveals how equaly criminally insane they all are. Can’t some clever or greedy event organiser get armageddon happening a bit sooner?

    • John says:

      06:38pm | 26/05/11

      She forgot to talk about the Atheist religion, Stalin makes Christians and the Muslims look like saints. See what happens when atheism becomes the state religion, like in communism, the state goes on a killing spree because it no longer believes in hell or some type of moral ideal to live up to.

    • TheRealDave says:

      11:24pm | 26/05/11

      Because Hitler was an atheist wasn’t he? Oh no, that’s right, he was Catholic, as was most of his cabal. And they killed ‘a large number’ of people didn’t they?

      Utter utter drek for the moronically inept.

      Next fallacy please!

    • Bikinis On Top says:

      06:55pm | 26/05/11

      After the fall of communism in the last century,  about 1989 to about 1994, Poland became a Catholic State with everything interpreted in church and in state by Catholicism.
      Catholicism replaced Communism as the political system,the social system,  and economic system of Poland.The ten commandments became the law.
      Poland became very different.

    • Just Sayin' says:

      10:50pm | 26/05/11

      The ten commandments became law? Really? People were legally obliged to honor their parents? Legally obliged not to covet their neighbors wife? Legally obliged not to take the lords name in vain?

      Evidence or GTFO.

    • bikinis on top says:

      07:40pm | 26/05/11

      Make Fred Nile next Governor General or NSW Minister for School Chaplains

    • Chris T says:

      07:48pm | 26/05/11

      It amazes me that Jaensch has reached what is clearly a ripe old age and does not know the first thing about constitutional law. 

      There is no separation of church and state in this country.  The High Court rejected that argument in the Dogs’ case in the 1980s…look it up.  The court found that the government is able to fund religious schools.

      Our s.116 means that there will be no state religion or test for office. 

      Moreover, “separation of church and state” seems to mean, for some liberals, that the church is to be excluded from public debate.  That is not the meaning of the phrase, and in a free society, any church is able to say what it likes.

    • baal says:

      08:41pm | 26/05/11

      Also in a free society we can point out that religion is a nasty con

    • just sayin says:

      09:17pm | 26/05/11

      Dean says that the incorporation of Sharia law, or any other system of law which is fundamentally based on a religion, would offend the Constitution, offend the principles on which our secular society is based, and introduce elements of a theocracy to our way of life.

      With regards to the principles on which our .. society is based and introducing elements of a theocracy .. Quoting from history here; “The delegates demanded recognition of religion and the insertion of recognition of a Divine Being in the preamble. This had become essential to popular support of the Bill. The representatives of New South Wales, South and Western Australia suggested the words, ‘acknowledging Almighty God as the Supreme Ruler of the Universe,’ whilst representatives from Victoria suggested, ‘ In reliance upon the blessing of Almighty God.’  Representatives from Tasmania suggested, ‘Duly acknowledging Almighty God as the Supreme Ruler of the Universe and the source of all true Government,’ and the legislative assembly of Western Australia proposed, ‘Grateful to Almighty God for their freedom, and in order to secure and perpetuate its blessings.’

      Protestant churches in New South Wales argued that the Constitution should state that divine providence is the “ultimate source of law”, while Convention delegates John Quick, who published The Judicial Power of the Commonwealth and The Legislative Powers of the Commonwealth and the States of Australia and Patrick Glynn, Attorney General of Australia and Minister of External Affairs noting the popular consensus that the Constitution should recognize the existence of God, moved to have God explicitly recognised in the Constitution. Section 116 was approved by the final Constitutional Convention, while Glynn successfully at the Melbourne session moved for the symbolic mention of “The people .. humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God,” in the preamble to the Constitution.”

    • Just Sayin' says:

      10:34pm | 26/05/11

      Dude, I like your post, but get your own Punch handle.

    • Mona says:

      10:23pm | 26/05/11

      In God We Trust was adopted as the official motto of the United States.That is an indictment of how the disease of christianity can be persistent,  eventually pervading the greatest democracy of our time, or so the yanks think.

    • TheRealDave says:

      11:28pm | 26/05/11

      Its why I thank the non-existent Christ that we were settled by murderers, thieves, revolutionaries, pick pockets and soldiers….instead of religious freaks too insane for Europe.

    • Waynevan says:

      07:05am | 27/05/11

      We can’t expect a Christian (or follower of any other faith), on entering politics to leave their faith at the door. To do so would be a denial of their beliefs. Besides, should one’s faith make them ineligible for holding elected office? Bear in mind that the separation of church and state is a thoroughly Christian idea, coming from the protestant reformation of the 16th century, when Luther and co’s ideal was to be able to worship God free from political interference.

    • God is morals and ethics says:

      08:59am | 27/05/11

      Take two

      Separation of state and church in Australia is an absolute myth and impossibility simply based on our history.
      To not teach certain good morals and values in schools because a certain religion also teaches them is a hideous idea.
      The atheist morality police now insists on teaching ethics classes instead of religion. These ethics classes are based on .. guess what? Yep, Christian values gobbled together by a church .  can’t get away from it no matter how people try. God ‘is’ ethics and morals.

    • Bee says:

      02:41pm | 27/05/11

      Wrong. The philosophy of ethics is taken from a broad spectrum of philosophers - from Aristotle to Kant to Singer. All of these ethicists have a more useful and nuanced understanding of moral dilemmas than the bible, where a man being told to sacrifice his son is seen to be morally laudable; or sending demons into pigs, sending them mad and causing them to run off a cliff and kill themselves. Insane, amoral IMmoral rubbish. The ten commandments is half taken up with religious proscriptions to do with worship and idolatry. Even the mildly useful strictures - against murder, adultery, for example - are certainly not exclusive to christian societies,to the extent that they can be considered universal, inbuilt ethics. The “atheist morality police” (whoever they are) are proposing ethics classes because they think it’s important for young people to think about the best way to solve moral problems. So rather than learning “Thou Shalt Not Worship Graven Images”, they have to answer moral questions about things pertinent to their lives - about bullying, ethical use of the internet etc. Why anyone would object to that is a complete mystery to me.

    • God is morals and ethics says:

      06:10pm | 27/05/11

      Who’s claiming exclusivity Bee?

      The St James ethics centre was founded by the Anglican parish of St James’ in King Street, Sydney. The schools utilise the teachings of this ethics centre to teach their students ethics instead of religion exclusively for atheists and nonbelievers.

      That’s funny.

    • God is morals says:

      09:14am | 27/05/11

      God is morals belongs in the religion forum. Mistakenly posted here.

    • gordon anderson says:

      11:36am | 27/05/11

      Religion of any kind has no place in our laws, and should not be government funded under any circumstances.

      Comparative religion as taught in schools should be taught only within a historical and literary context - it should cover the main religions and also compare them with non-religious philosophy.  Classes should be taught by qualified teachers, not by chaplains or imams, as the temptation is always there to unconsciously abuse their position of trust and not give a balanced view to impressionable young minds.

      The intent of the constitution is clear, no preference on the basis of religion.  This should equally be applied to those who have no-religion, namely those who are Atheist and/or agnostic.

    • Gidgee says:

      02:37pm | 27/05/11

      Say, dear compere of this site, whatever happened to my comment on this subject; on a subject wherein all sorts of religions and isms are given a bit of a serve but, hey, not a peep about the barbarity of Judaism.
      I wrote truth on what the Jewish adherents are doing right now in old Palestine and yet, it seems, my offering has been rejected by faceless people who’re apparently afraid of an honest appraisal of Jewry.
      You did write an email to me saying my offering had been approved but, lo, not a sign of it hereon.
      Surely you don’t accept the rot of being called an “anti-Semite” do you?
      Given the barbarity of the Jewish fanatics since circa 1948 I am very surprised that you’ve decided to squib out.

    • Luke says:

      11:55pm | 28/05/11

      If religion and state should be separate…. where does tax exemption fit?
      1. State taxing religion is state interfering with it…
      2. State keeping it tax free is religion interfering with state.
      The answer?

    • Alison says:

      11:25am | 06/06/11

      Australia has no formal “separation of church and state” and we are a country “under the blessings of almighty God”.  We are not America, or France, or the UK. Dean Jaensch should have finished the quote from our Constitution which continues “or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion”.  A great percentage of Australians consider themselves religious, the also pay taxes and attend public schools which should provide an education for all Australians not just atheistic humanists.

    • Alison says:

      12:07pm | 06/06/11

      Dear Reg,
      In case you have never thought about it, atheists do not represent “all” Australians, atheists are not the only ones who pay taxes, atheists are not the only ones who have children, atheists are not the only ones who attend public schools,  atheists are not the only ones who have a right to educate their children, atheists are not the only ones who vote,  and the Government should provide for all Australians, and should support education for ALL Australian children and for all families and “not prohibit the free exercise of any religion” . Either that or those of us who are now forced to send our children to private religious schools to exercise our freedom of choice, (ie religious education) should be compensated with a huge tax refund.

 

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