As a scientist who studies natural climatic disruptions of the distant past and finds disturbing parallels with the vast changes that we’re setting in motion with today’s fossil fuel emissions, I’ve long favoured a switch to alternative energy sources.


But having been an anti-nuke protester back in my college days, I’ve also been reluctant to support nuclear power thanks to the unresolved problems of meltdowns, waste storage, bomb proliferation, and terrorism. 

Nonetheless, my attitude changed several months ago after a chance conversation with a geologist friend whose son is training to become nuclear engineer.  “He’s working on a new kind of reactor,” my friend explained, “It can’t melt down, it makes only minimal waste, and it can’t be used for making bombs.  Instead of running on uranium, it uses thorium instead, which is a lot safer to work with.” 

More recently, I’ve also been told by experts that thorium nukes would have safely weathered the recent earthquake and tsunami in Japan. It sounded too good to be true, but if thorium power is actually anywhere near as amazing as its proponents claim, then it offers a welcome ray of hope for a sustainable energy future just when we’re beginning to need it most.

Unfortunately, it’s still difficult to find much helpful information about these so-called “green nukes” that isn’t written by jargon-happy engineers (like these). But I’m giving you a basic heads-up here to get you thinking and talking about them if you’re not onto them already. 

How does a thorium plant work?  In some ways, it’s much like a uranium-driven system, with nuclear chain reactions heating a liquid that drives turbines and generates electricity.  But unlike the self-sustaining processes driven by uranium, thorium reactions don’t run so easily or continuously on their own. 

To set a reluctant green nuke in motion, small amounts of uranium may be used as a sort of nuclear spark plug or, in other cases, a quick shot from a particle accelerator can jump-start the thing. One of the safest-sounding designs dissolves thorium fuel in molten fluorine salts and lets the hot reactions bubble away in open-ended tubes. 

If conditions become too intense in that sort of “liquid fluorine thorium reactor” (LFTR, pronounced “lifter”), the fluid simply boils out of the tubes and the reaction dies out automatically. 

Thorium reactors can be built small enough to fit onto a large truck bed, and they produce relatively benign and short-lived waste that fades away far more rapidly than uranium-derived wastes do.  It’s lousy for making bombs with, unlike the plutonium that uranium reactors make.  They can also burn and destroy such deadly radioactive materials. 

In other words, thorium power might not only provide heaps of inexpensive, non-polluting electricity - it might solve our waste storage problems as well.

Compared to uranium, thorium is relatively abundant worldwide, but Australia owns some of the largest deposits. It doesn’t need as much refinement as uranium does; just dig it up and it’s essentially ready to go.  Power plants that run on it would dam no rivers and produce no acid rain or greenhouse gases, and their immense electrical output could also create clean hydrogen fuels from the splitting of water.

So why are we using those troublesome uranium plants instead of nice green nukes?  According to the experts I’ve questioned, thorium technology was sidelined during the 1970s because it can’t do what uranium reactors do so well in addition to generating electricity, which is creating the plutonium needed for nuclear weapons arsenals. 

Where’s the catch here?  Surely there must be a dark side to thorium, though I’ve not heard any such thing yet from its more knowledgeable and vocal proponents, some of whom display a nearly evangelical fervor and a reluctance to discuss anything that might slow the spread of this promising technology. 

But as we face growing economic crises with the dwindling of cheap fossil fuel reserves, not to mention the thousands of years of climatic disruptions that the latest research shows can result from our fossil fuel emissions, I believe that this topic is too important to be left in the hands of a few tech-wizards who may overlook important aspects of introducing it into a real world where earthquakes, tsunamis, and crazy extremists lurk. 

There’s no perfect solution to our energy needs and it’s important to acknowledge that even LFTR-nukes may have their own unique flaws.  Choosing the best path forward will require a thoughtful and open discussion of all aspects of that choice, not just the nuts and bolts but the practical human costs as well. 

Now’s the time to learn as much as you can about green nukes, and to join the global conversation.  It’s your world, too, so let your voice be heard - we’re going to need it.

Curt Stager is a guest of the Sydney Writers Festival. He will also be appearing at the Byron Bay Community Centre on 25 May. For details, visit Scribe.

136 comments

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    • Erick says:

      05:52am | 24/05/11

      If we’re really serious about cutting carbon emissions while building a long-term economic future for our country, we’ll pour money into the development of thorium reactors.

      The ability to export both the raw materials and the technology for utilising them would give us a splendid opportunity to make money with a clean conscience. Only anti-scientific, superstitious fear stands in our way.

    • acotrel says:

      07:44am | 24/05/11

      ’ Surely there must be a dark side to thorium, though I’ve not heard any such thing yet from its more knowledgeable and vocal proponents, some of whom display a nearly evangelical fervor and a reluctance to discuss anything that might slow the spread of this promising technology.’

      The engineers who manage Australian companies have many times shown themselves incapable of handling and storing normal hazardous substances. (Butler Transport, Coode Island disasters)  What will they do with the added risks of nuclear material?  Whether it’s uranium or thorium, the risks remain in some form.

    • Dave-o says:

      08:08am | 24/05/11

      And where does this money for which must pour come from?

    • Paul W says:

      08:19am | 24/05/11

      And which part of our anti-scientific, anti-superstitious, “scientific” community got to build our existing reactor on a fault line Eric? Is that science or thrillseeking? And then the science bogans couldn’t even be bothered insuring the reactor. Hullo?  Is this China or Australia?

      Take your Simpsons plot and she’ll be right attitude and go back to Japan mate.

      Same problem the technology might be great but still the same dumb humans playing with dangerous toys and writing fantasy we-love-nuclear articles.

      Next.

    • Jacob says:

      08:40am | 24/05/11

      This ^

    • Sony B Goode says:

      08:50am | 24/05/11

      Unfortunately Erick, these reactors suffer from a major flaw that the engineers won’t be able to fix, you can’t use them to redistribute income.

    • Beulah says:

      10:30am | 24/05/11

      Two words = Radon Gas. By product of Thorium. No, that can’t be used by terrorists could it?

    • L. says:

      11:27am | 24/05/11

      “Two words = Radon Gas. By product of Thorium. No, that can’t be used by terrorists could it? “

      Get a grip..

      If we banned everything that had a dual “terrorist” use there would be no such things as air travel, knives, clubs, fertilizer, trucks, numerous cleaning products, mobile phones, duct tape etc etc…

    • Paul W says:

      11:29am | 24/05/11

      @beulah If you read the facts about “terrorism” and nuclear waste, the real risk isnot dirty bombs it is the US (with Australia too scared to speak up) spraying tonnes more of depleted Uranium around urban areas (for no apparent reason) and countries such as Iraq. To date there have been at least 4-5 “nuclear wars”.  Condemning thousands of kids to a lifetime of deformity and disability in third world conditions. But we won’t put that in the scientific facts will we? We are the good guys. We can be trusted with nuclear products right? We are pro-human rights right? We don’t want dirty bombs inside our cities because that would be a criminal act wouldn’t it?

      Yes we can trust humans with nuclear byproducts? Like Thorium will change this? Grow up and evolve ye apes! Erick and Mr Stager have to be seen for the Watermelons they are; Schizophrenically and conveniently Green and Nuclear on the outside, and Redneck on the inside…

    • Pete says:

      12:26pm | 24/05/11

      @Beulah
      The radon produced has a very short half-life and decays within a day or two. The idea of using a gas like radon as a weapon is ridiculous, given it would be so pointless. Do some study or read a book or something.

    • Erick says:

      01:41pm | 24/05/11

      @Paul W - You are the perfect example of anti-science and superstitious fear.

      (1) The whole of Sydney is geologically very stable. When was the last time we had a Richter 9 earthquake? Oh, that’s right, never. You’re just scaremongering based on your superstitious fears.

      (2) No, we have not had “4-5 nuclear wars”. Depleted uranium is just an inert metal, like steel or lead. Do you even know what “depleted” means? It means uranium from which the most radioactive parts have been extracted. You just have a superstitious fear because of the word “uranium”.

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      01:44pm | 24/05/11

      Clean source of energy available in abundance? Naaah, that’s too good to be true, let’s not utilise it.

    • Bruce says:

      02:24pm | 24/05/11

      How about we consider Helium 3 technology. The USA, Russia and Japanese are already considering the development of Helium 3 Power generation. Helium 3 is not a new concept, however, if introduced it will superceed existing nuclear power plants. Attached link explains the potential uses.
      http://www.explainingthefuture.com/helium3.html

    • Paul W says:

      02:54pm | 24/05/11

      @Erick 1. So lets be anti-science and just agree there is no science (!) or we can see no science supporting any nasty health effects on the population from depleted uranium hey Erick? To soldiers and/or civilians?!

      2. So the scaremongering has frightened off the insurance industry from insuring the Nuclear reactor too Erick? Or do they know something you don’t Erick? Since their business is risk not fantasy? Is this just more she’ll-be-right-mate scientific boganism?? Sure a socialist state program had to fund this reactor but why not show some commercial nouse and insure it? Or should the state/ people take all the risk too? your nuclear programs get wackier mate!

    • Paul W says:

      03:16pm | 24/05/11

      @Erick— So you based on ignorance and some story you just made up, you say that US military depleted uranium IS NOT 60% as radioactive as normal Uranium? She’ll-be-right-nuclear scientific boganism right there!!

    • Erick says:

      03:52pm | 24/05/11

      @Paul W - You’re just blabbering now. All your points are based on superstitious non-science.

    • acotrel says:

      06:15pm | 24/05/11

      @L
      ‘If we banned everything that had a dual “terrorist” use there would be no such things as air travel, knives, clubs, fertilizer, trucks, numerous cleaning products, mobile phones, duct tape etc etc’

      I suggest you go and try to buy some ammonium nitrate, or any other oxidising agent in bulk, for that matter!

    • acotrel says:

      06:20pm | 24/05/11

      @Pete Using radon gas as a weapon would be difficult.  But imagine the effect of a release in a subwaywould have , on the mass psyche? Terrorists could paralyse a whole city with it.

    • acotrel says:

      06:23pm | 24/05/11

      @Erick ‘depleted uranium’ is still radioactive.

    • Fiona says:

      10:13pm | 24/05/11

      @bruce, read the article your link provided. Either Thorium or helium 3 sounds promising. Unfortunately an ugly war could be on the cards as we race other countries to extract helium 3.

    • Just Sayin' says:

      01:22pm | 25/05/11

      I must of missed something here.

      Erick advocates throium reactors and gets bagged over depleted uranium.  Ummm… he’s advocating THORIUM reactors, which produce as much depleted uranium as a cake shop.

      Radon Gas?  Oh shit, there goes the clever plan to leave massive quantities of waste on the side of the road with a sign that says “Terrorists, please don’t take this.”  There is no such thing as totally safe and there never will be.  We need to look for the safest, cleanest options, and thorium reactors hit the nail on the head.

      If they are so good, why aren’t they being used yet?  Development was sidelined for the reasons mentioned in the original post.  They are now being developed quite aggressively in India and a few other places.  But nah, we’ll just sit on the sidelines.

    • Just Sayin' says:

      01:54pm | 25/05/11

      @ alcotrel

      So is granite, but I won’t be ripping out my kitchen counter.

    • jb says:

      06:31am | 24/05/11

      Curt I read a story about Thorium in The Australian a couple of months back.
      One would think this is certainly the way to go clean and plentiful.
      Unfortunately until this world of our changes it attitude I can’t see it catching on, I mean it’s not like you can make bombs out of it is it…
      Keep banging that drum though as this is absolutely the way to go

    • TimB says:

      06:36am | 24/05/11

      The catch is that anything even remotely associated with the word nuclear gets the Green zealots worked up.

      This is the path the Government (whoever is in power) should take. Cheap electricity. No nasty Carbon emissions that everyone gets so worked up about. Not to mention potential export industry as we mine our stockpiles.

      Seriously it’s a win-win and should be a no-brainer.

    • Super D says:

      08:12am | 24/05/11

      Actually I think you’ll find the one thing the Green movement hates more than nuclear power is cheap electricity.  Cheap electricity has been demonstrated to raise living standards and hence consumption.  Cheap electricity is seen in many parts of the green movement as the greatest evil known to man.  Higher energy costs are seen as a mechanism to restrain consumption.  Its all very malthusian logic but thats the closest you get to logic from the greens.

    • nossy says:

      08:34am | 24/05/11

      @TimB - god help me Tim I agree with you ! Yesterday I agreed with MarK on something ! Yes Nuclear power certainly seems the way to go despite the Japanese disaster recently - there is no reason why we would have those problems here I am sure. Bring it on TimB !

    • Paranoia says:

      08:43am | 24/05/11

      Actually, TimB, I’m a greenie and a conservationist and I’m very interested in this article.  I’d certainly be keen to learn more about this and if it’s as clean and non-polluting as it seems (I’m not a nuclear physicist so I don’t know) then I can’t see why we shouldn’t be encouraging this technology.

      Can we get the CSIRO to research and develop this as applicable?  Surely that’s an acceptable way to get more money into our premier scientific research organisation?  (Which we obviously need - don’t get me started on the “dumbing down” of this country Lol)

    • Jim says:

      09:07am | 24/05/11

      @Super D - I think you’re onto something there!

    • Knemon says:

      01:19pm | 24/05/11

      @ TimB - Thank you Tim - for showing me I’m not a zealot. I would fully support this technology regardless of who was in government.

      I find it more alarming that technology like this was sidelined because it doesn’t produce enough plutonium for nuclear weapons.

      For once I totally agree with your sentiments. Get on the phone to Tone and tell him to jump on board.

    • Super D says:

      06:36am | 24/05/11

      If we were to use all of the resources we are currently squandering on climate fear to develop Thorium power we would do far more for the world than we would by cutting our modest emissions by an inconsequential amount.

    • wolf says:

      07:46am | 24/05/11

      How about using some of the resources from a climate TAX??? If it’s done properly it could pay for alternative research and help make alternative sources of power cost effective. I would have no problem if the government used the proceeds this way instead of compensating big polluters.

    • Shifter says:

      04:57pm | 24/05/11

      @wolf - because the government should already have this money, rather than having to resort to a new tax which we all know will be passed on to the end consumer.

    • David LD says:

      06:58am | 24/05/11

      For all money we spend on the pipe-dreams about theoretical nuclear power, we could line every house coast to coast with vertical axis wind turbines, cover most roofs with existing photovoltaic cells (and upgrade them over time to maintain efficiency), sink significant investment into stable geothermal using proven and existing technology imported from Iceland, AND develop enough heliostat plants to cover baseload for industry country-wide.

      Too bad we’ve got no-one with a strong enough political vision (along with a compliant, or even neutral media) to shout down the nuclear lobby and their peons (See above: Erick) and actually invest in this country for the long-long-term.

    • ronny says:

      07:46am | 24/05/11

      How about over 40 million dollars for geothermal in the Cooper Basin and not a single watt generated? Not a single well completed and functioning? Nuclear is no pipe dream, all of the things you have put up are the pipe dreams, none can deliver power reliably or cheaply.

    • Erick says:

      08:24am | 24/05/11

      Really, David LD? Exactly how much is spent on “pipe-dreams about theoretical nuclear power” - by which I assume you mean thorium research? A paltry few million a year?

      How expensive would it be to install your pipe-dreams about theoretical renewable power? Hundreds of billions every year?

      You misestimate the costs by several orders of magnitude. No wonder nobody takes greenies seriously.

    • TimB says:

      08:28am | 24/05/11

      Ok first you claim that “Nuclear power” (I assume you mean Thorium derived power) is “theoretical”- it isn’t. WTF?

      Now you’re claiming that for the cost of building a bunch of Thorium plants, you can somehow cover the installation of renewable energy generators on every dwelling & business in the country?

      Of course you have some figures to back up this claim. I doubt you do though. The logistics alone for your alternative would be staggering.

    • d says:

      08:43am | 24/05/11

      The whole problem is there is no money spent on developing these idea’s

      It is all well and fair to say we could divert the funding away from future solutions to current tech but if there is no bucket of money then that would be even more futile!

    • David LD says:

      09:15am | 24/05/11

      Ahh yes, because having a rational back and forth discussion on the merits of something you could never be convinced of anyway, even if it were conclusively proven to benefit not only you, but everyone, on a forum that is regularly heavily moderated, is absolutely going to be on my list of things to do today.

      Don’t you conservatives ever get tired of being on the wrong end of every issue?

    • Bennymac says:

      09:25am | 24/05/11

      David LD
      It’s 6:00 pm on a winters eve, the sun’s not a shining and the wind’s not a blowing, and unfortunately, most Australians live nowhere near geology that allows geothermal. Everyone in Australia has just got home from work and has turned the heater on, sparking up the washing machine and dryer, watching the 6:00 news and cooking dinner, little johnny is busily facebooking on the computer and young jane is blowdrying her hair in the bathroom under the heat lamps. This is the time when most energy is used and under your theory 100% of it is being sourced from heliostat plants. Have you done the math on how many plants and surface area required to power sydney for example? Where do you put them? Do you buy up all of the land to the north and south of sydney, get rid of all the farming and state/national forest and bulldose it all flat? Where do you put booster stations? Where do you put thousands of kilometers of high tension power lines and poles required to radiate into sydney from the hundreds of heliostat stations surrounding the city, on land that was once used to produce our food? Whats the environmental impact of the enormous amount of resources required to build such a project, making steel to build for example a bracket for a mirror, or a power pole produces quite a bit of carbon i hear? What would the cost of this be and who would pay for it?

      Although, on the upside, we would be able to gainfully employ all of the people with buckets and squidgees from intersections Australia wide.

      If we are to reduce our carbon emissions, whatever the reason, there is only one viable option. Renewable energy wont fix it, a tax wont fix it, only nuclear can, the longer the government, greens and environmentalists refuse to support this path, the bigger the disservice they are doing to their own cause.

    • Erick says:

      09:51am | 24/05/11

      @David LD - In other words, the moment it’s pointed out that your entire argument is based on a truly ridiculous fallacy that is evident to anyone with a skerrick of numeracy, you will run away.

      Good to know. Try coming back with a rational argument next time.

    • Adam says:

      10:42am | 24/05/11

      “Ahh yes, because having a rational back and forth discussion on the merits of something you could never be convinced of anyway, even if it were conclusively proven to benefit not only you, but everyone, on a forum that is regularly heavily moderated, is absolutely going to be on my list of things to do today.

      Don’t you conservatives ever get tired of being on the wrong end of every issue?”

      Your idea has been ripped apart cause it sucks. You are refusing to even attempt defending this half witted idea, insteading citing it not being on your “list of things to do today” or the punch being “heavily moderated”. You are a shining example of why people think all greenies are idiots who lack the brain capacity to come up with a workable, well reasoned idea.

      “on a forum that is regularly heavily moderated”

      LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL. The punch is not heavily moderated. My post proves that. It just seems when your crap idea gets shot down, your only response is to say “I could write an awesome rational response but I’m too busy and the punch moderators won’t publish it”. What a cop out. If your next response doesn’t have any attempt to defend your moronic idea, then we will all know you just don’t have a rational response to defend your hair brained idea.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      10:43am | 24/05/11

      He doesn’t understand base load electricity generation.

      There are no viable renewables that have base load capacity. Taxing us will not change this fact, but it will raise the top marginal tax rate by a stealthy 10%.

    • David LD says:

      11:01am | 24/05/11

      @Erick - Whatever makes it easier for you to sleep at night, dude.

    • Max Redlands says:

      12:22pm | 24/05/11

      @ David LD “@Erick - Whatever makes it easier for you to sleep at night, dude.”

      Pathetic.

      Erick and TimB are correct imho. You have have copped out as soon as someone has met your flaccid assertions and the best you can come up with is the fatuous “Don’t you conservatives ever get tired of being on the wrong end of every issue?”

      I mean really, don’t you even see how weak that is?

      In my view it is attitudes such as yours that really hinder the debate (amongst other things).

      You talk about “pipe dreams” and then give a vivid description of one re wind and solar power.

      The whole AGW debate aside there’s no doubt, in my mind, we need to be looking for new sources of energy that can economically deliver the amount of energy we need to keep functioning as society and economy not only at present levels but also with an eye to the fact that our energy requirements will increase in the future.

      Nuclear power generated from Uranium could do that and while I am not amongst those who go in paroxysms of fear over the thought of Uranium derived energy if Thorium can deliver a similiar load in a safer and cleaner way then we’d be mad not to look at it.

      Reactions like yours strike me as juvenile and knee - jerk in nature: as soon as some one says “Nuclear” your mind snaps shut like an activated rat trap.

    • Arlen says:

      12:34pm | 24/05/11

      What is very often forgotten by renewable energy exponents is that a low-carbon economy will necessarily use much more electricity as petrol and other fossil fuel sources are replaced by low-carbon electricity. This is why a large scale reliable source like 4th gen nuclear or LFTR is necessary.

    • Andrew says:

      01:39pm | 24/05/11

      David, solar and wind generation are fine (expensive, but fine) in some places where this is constant, reliable wind (North sea, etc), but can NEVER be used as baseload power in most areas.  Why?  Well for one, the sun doesn’t shine at night, so no power.  And the wind is fickle, so sometimes there will be no power.  You cannot run a grid with a non-reliable source of power, and geothermal won’t cut it.  Iceland can use it because they have a low population and very accessible heat - they live on an entirely volcanic island, after all.  Here, it’s insanely expensive to drill anywhere near deep enough to get enough heat, and it uses almost as much energy to get that heat to a useful place as it generates.  Tidal power, harnessing the ocean currents, these are all viable ideas that are worth exploring as they ARE constant and predictable, but solar and wind are certainly not.  Nuclear is the only current technology capable of replacing coal as a baseload source of electricity.  There is simply nothing else available right now - I’m not saying that there WON’T be at some point in future, but right now it’s the best and only choice we have.

    • Peter E says:

      01:58pm | 24/05/11

      Actually hes not far off the mark, you can get a house off the power grid completely for around 10-20K depending on your power needs, i dont understand why everyone is attacking David LD.

      Its not like solar is new, its been tried and tested, works and is available now.  10-20K may seem a lot but when your paying 200k-400k for a house (unless you can afford more) an extra 10-20K isnt that much of a stretch if you havent aimed for a house outta your reach.

      I think what he is saying basically if all houses/buildings go off the grid what powers power plants becomes a mute point….

      As for the power usage after hours ( I love that one hahah) off the grid setups store the energy collected during the day so it can be used later at night. If you set it up properly it works well many have done it, my wife and I are on our way to setting it up and we live in a place thats cold and not much sun…. yet its still viable.

      Do the research into getting your house of the grid yourself, in fact some modern skyscrapers have been designed so well that they do not need grid power at all. Admitadly not many have been built, but they have proven it can be done.

    • Jordan Rastrick says:

      02:08pm | 24/05/11

      My views are broadly progressive. I’m strongly in favour of a carbon pricing, and voted for the Greens in the upper house in the recent NSW election (despite some pretty strong reservations).

      I strongly favour the introduction of nuclear power plants in to Australia, David, and increased R&D into Thorium and other fourth generation plant designs that address most of the problems older fission reactors have.

      Any rational, objective analysis of the economics of renewables, and the projected growth in global energy demand driven by poor countries even if the Western world can cut consumption down heavily, shows that a viable carbon-free future will require nuclear energy to be part of the mix.

      Since I’m not one of those conservatives always on the wrong end of the argument, on what basis will you casually dismiss my views?

    • PTom says:

      03:45pm | 24/05/11

      Everyone attack renewable as not be available now.

      So where are there any Thorium 4th gen nuclear or LFTR anywhere in the world, right now?

    • Erick says:

      03:56pm | 24/05/11

      @PTom - Standard uranium nuclear power generation be available right now. Nuclear power plants be online since 1970s.

      Thorium be maybe better for future. But uranium fission be proven, right now!

    • TimB says:

      05:59pm | 24/05/11

      Peter, the reason why we’re all juming on david can be found right there in your figures.

      10K-20K per household you say?

      Lets assume 5 million households in Australia (average of 4-5 people per household, seems fair)

      So the cost to install these systems in EVERY residential dwelling: 50-100 BILLION dollars. At least.

      You also haven’t taken into account the logistics of the amount of man hours it would take to install all of these units. Let alone the maintenance.
      Then throw in commercial properties. Government buildings. Etc. Your costs are just going to head upwards.

      From my (admittedly limited) Google searching, a 1 gigwatt thorium plant would cost at most about $1 billion.

      So for *just* the absolute lower cost estimate of the residential component of David’s installation scheme of $50 billion, you could build fifty 1GW thorium plants. More than enough to take care of Australia’s entire baseload power needs.

      I’lll admit these calculations are rough, but it’s pretty clear to see that David’s idea just doesn’t add up. It’s inefficient and expensive.

    • L. says:

      07:09am | 24/05/11

      Yes.. It will be good to see the sky is falling types argue against Thorium as presented in this article.

    • Luke says:

      08:26am | 24/05/11

      Just like David LD did above?

    • L. says:

      10:50am | 24/05/11

      “Just like David LD did above? “

      LOl…yeah, ok… and what exactly do we do on windless, cloudy days..??

      Get back to me when you have that worked out…

    • Erick says:

      01:47pm | 24/05/11

      @Paul W - So you’re basing your argument on the wacky theories of a filmmaker, who recently claimed we were all being irradiated by a dust storm? Crazy anti-science superstition again.

      I seriously doubt that you have any idea of what you’re talking about.

    • Its called a battery.... says:

      02:02pm | 24/05/11

      @ L you use the power stored in the batteries that were charged on the sunny and windy days douche….. you do know right many houses are totally off the power grid for years now yeah? what the hell do you think they do? .... idiot.
      Its the most obviously issue with solar, you honestly think noone thought about it?

    • Paul W says:

      03:02pm | 24/05/11

      @erick And you are basing your arguments on a theoretical technology that like most of the nuclear industry relies on socialist (state) type building programs and some new FUTURE faith based idea that scientists and the nuclear industry will act responsibly for a change?? Might be a good time to start studying the nuclear industry young feller.

      BHP’s own environmental report for the massive Olympic dam project admitted they didn’t have enough water to control radioactive dust on the site. Is that a theory too Mister Anti-science Erick?  smile Check your facts and religon bud.

    • L. says:

      03:18pm | 24/05/11

      “@ L you use the power stored in the batteries that were charged on the sunny and windy days douche”

      Hahaha…. excellent… grin

      Tell us, what type of batteries..?

      Seriously, that is the funniest thing I have read here in ages…

    • Brizben says:

      05:57pm | 24/05/11

      Off peak power is stored on holding dams like Split Yard Creek Dam near Wivenhoe. It acts as a 500 MW “battery”, but instead of storing electrical charge it stores water. Excess power is used to pump water up to the dam and during peak hours the pumps are reversed and used as generators.

    • L. says:

      07:18pm | 24/05/11

      “Off peak power is stored on holding dams like Split Yard Creek Dam near Wivenhoe.”

      Umm…no. At the end of the drought Brisbanes dams were at less than 16% of total. Relying on dams of any type in Qld for power is the height of stupidity!

    • Brizben says:

      09:09pm | 24/05/11

      @L. It is not a water supply dam, it is part of the power grid infrastructure.

    • ronny says:

      07:23am | 24/05/11

      This type of high tech solution is exactly where we should be heading. Not artificially inflating the price of existing resources to encourage development of alternatives. Why not directly fund research into credible alternatives? As a taxpayer I would have no problem with this approach. CSIRO anyone?
      Throwing money at long discredited alts such as solar and wind is not the way to go.

    • Dave-o says:

      08:11am | 24/05/11

      You’d still need to artificially inflate the price of coal for thorium to take off.

    • David C says:

      11:29am | 24/05/11

      I am not so sure of that , we now use about 10% of the oil we used to use to generate electicity. That is a great example of changing behaviours.. Why did we do that ? becasue we developed a cheap alternative in coal
      If everyone calms down about ” catastrophic” climate change and “critical decades” then we will have the time to develop the cheap alternatives to coal etc

    • Sony B Goode says:

      08:20am | 24/05/11

      Progressives (ie which stands for prosperity opposed regressives) are not interested in alternate energy sources because you can’t use it to redistribute, destroy or retard prosperity.

    • PTom says:

      03:39pm | 24/05/11

      Get out of your little box and do some searching on the net.

      Solar, Wind and Tidal are also alternate energy sources.

      As you like to point at the funds taken under Carbon Price are redistributed from the emitters back to household, industry and R&D,  The same R&D could be used in part into Thorium because as far as I have seen nuke power has not been rolled out.

    • iansand says:

      08:28am | 24/05/11

      The only problem is that there is not, and has never been, a full scale thorium reactor.  With the best will in the world it will be several decades before thorium plants are making a significant contribution to electricity generation.

      In the meantime, we have operational wind and solar plants (and liquid salt technology can go a long way to solving the solar base load argument).

      Gosh!!!  I have an idea!!!  Let’s utilise all options and have a - I am thinking up a buzzword - “multi-pronged” would work - approach to the problem

    • L. says:

      10:54am | 24/05/11

      “In the meantime, we have operational wind and solar plants (and liquid salt technology can go a long way to solving the solar base load argument).”

      ...and that wouldn’t realistically take decades and Billions..??

    • L. says:

      12:28pm | 24/05/11

      “No.  Those technologies are operating on a commercial scale now. “

      LOLOL..yeah, ok…

      Let me tell you why that is a crap idea.

      I live in Brisbane. Over Dec / Jan we had 3 ~ 3.5 solid weeks of cloud cover…(remember the floods..??)

      How were we supposed to power our city and industry with solar power with conditions like that..??

      “As you have your head in the sand I doubt that you have noticed the occasional windmill here and there. “

      As you have your head in your arse you wouldn’t know that Brisbane has no windmills.

    • Markus says:

      02:01pm | 24/05/11

      Yep, and all those windmills, solar panels, hydro and geothermal plants still only account for 1.7% of total energy production.

      So it won’t take billions, or decades, to increase the number of these energy sources 50-fold?

    • It can be done says:

      02:11pm | 24/05/11

      @ L

      Actually It can be done, but you need enough energy storage to hold the excess power (yes excess) thats generated on the Sunny and windy days, its a buffer, you just need a big enough buffer to get you through those times. You can always have fall back systems/generators which is still better then relying on a finite fossil fuel supply as your primary source.

      Stop looking for problems and start looking at solutions my friend.

    • iansand says:

      02:49pm | 24/05/11

      L - There is more to the world than just Brisbane. 

      I remember driving into San Francisco from the east about 20 years ago and seeing the rows of windmills.  They were still there 2 years ago, except more of them.  I have even seen one or two between Sydney and Canberra.  And some in WA.  There are quite a few scattered around the countryside.

      And, as far as your cloud cover problem goes, that is why god invented grids.

    • L. says:

      03:15pm | 24/05/11

      “Stop looking for problems and start looking at solutions my friend.”

      I am not looking for problems..I’m looking for reality. There is no “power” store big enough to carry a city through 3+ weeks of bugger all sunshine when you propose solar as our baseload supply.

      There is only one baseload suppling, peak demand meeting, carbon free power source that works 24/7, on windless days, without the need for damn…..Nukes.

    • PTom says:

      03:57pm | 24/05/11

      L.
      Solar still works on cloudy days just not as effective. You would not need large base load or lines every where as houses with solar and wind would have been able to start using power after a check instead of waiting for the power companies to restore the grid.

      Some house lost power and did not get flooded. These could have been kept fully powered.

    • PTom says:

      04:08pm | 24/05/11

      @L.
      Based load can not meet Peaks there are done by mostly Gas and Hydro.

      Solar Thermal, Tidal and Wave generators can be used as base but the idea of home renewable is to reduce base load needs.
      Making the need to build big baseload plant obsolete.

    • ibast says:

      08:33am | 24/05/11

      The reason they haven’t been developed is money.  The scale of funds needed to get a theoretical process like this through to a reliable and safe means of electricity production is beyond most companies in the world and even beyond most countries.

      That and, as TimB noted, the stigma of nuclear power would still be attached to it.

      To get it up an running you would need a consortium of a number of countries and a number of companies and significant time commitment.

      So the question gets asked “Why not just build a nuclear plant?” and the Thorium never gets developed.

    • L. says:

      11:23am | 24/05/11

      “To get it up an running you would need a consortium of a number of countries and a number of companies and significant time commitment.”

      I read recently that the Chinese are investing a lot into this.

    • Kassandra says:

      03:51pm | 24/05/11

      True, but maybe not for the reason you thought. It’s not a theoretical process - working prototype thorium reactors were built and operated successfully decades ago. The reason liquid salt thorium reactors have not been developed is that the profit in existing uranium fuel reactors is not in building them but in supplying the fuel rods which come in bundles. They make huge profits from supplying the fuel rods. Conversely thorium fuel is cheap. Put the NBN budget into developing this and we might really get something worthwhile for our money for a change.

    • Kassandra says:

      03:51pm | 24/05/11

      True, but maybe not for the reason you thought. It’s not a theoretical process - working prototype thorium reactors were built and operated successfully decades ago. The reason liquid salt thorium reactors have not been developed is that the profit in existing uranium fuel reactors is not in building them but in supplying the fuel rods which come in bundles. They make huge profits from supplying the fuel rods. Conversely thorium fuel is cheap. Put the NBN budget into developing this and we might really get something worthwhile for our money for a change.

    • Michael says:

      08:34am | 24/05/11

      Thorium is a good, solid, scientific answer to our current addiciton to burning 100,000 year old trees… It’s such a good scientific solution that it’s not nearly dramatic enough to make juliar & co the media meza-stars they feel they need to be. Let’s face it: problems make headlines. Solutions are technical, take detail and are inherantly boring.

      Thorium deposits in Australia are abundent. This really could be a long term solution to our problems - it could help us stop burning coal and also give us something to replace coal exports when everyone else decides to stop burning our coal too.

      ...Now, if we could just make science and solutions sexy!

    • bleD says:

      08:36am | 24/05/11

      A nice sensible balanced article. Of course it will not be supported by the military but the Government should push the thorium barrow for all its worth. A thorium nuclear powered economy would provide us with a century of breathing space while the problem of reducing human population is tackled—which is the only long term solution to our energy requirements.

    • Sounding Good says:

      08:47am | 24/05/11

      I must been missing something.  Been reading about this further today, but no one seems to mention this and it is quickly gleamed over.  One of the things produced from this cycle is Uranium 233, which is actually “easy” to make a nuclear weapon with.  More challenging, but the technology involved is no different.

      Though the fact that the waste settles down within a couple of hundred years, rather than hundreds of thousands, definite positive there.

      I wont be holding my breath for Australia to get involved in research into something like this, or even investing in.  We will just send our significant reserves overseas wink

    • Jim says:

      08:48am | 24/05/11

      My first degree was in ceramic engineering - way back in the day when superconductors were the next big thing. One of our lecturers always claimed thorium reactors would be a panacea to the worlds energy demands. His dream was to find a superconductor that worked at room temperatures and have a single thorium reactor powering the country.

      That course shut down in ‘89 I think, with funding diverted across the road to the ferals at NIDA…money well spent - not.

    • St. Michael says:

      02:10pm | 24/05/11

      The room temperature superconductor is a bit like cold fusion, unfortunately.

      If you can make hydrogen into a solid metal, maybe, but we can’t even control hydrogen sufficiently to make it fuse, much less make a metal out of it.

    • Sounding Good says:

      08:51am | 24/05/11

      Sorry, finally found the reason why U233 is not such an issue. Sure, it is easy to build a nuclear device using U233.  What is difficult is using the material that is produced from the thorium cycle, the U233 is contaminated by U232, very difficult to separate.

    • persephone says:

      08:51am | 24/05/11

      These are the ‘technical issues’ which are holding back thorium’s development as a power source:

      ‘Not all technical problems have yet been solved in the development of fuel cycles based on thorium. The World Nuclear Association, echoed by Australia’s Uranium Information Centre, has highlighted four of these problems. [37]

      Firstly, it is difficult and expensive to fabricate fuel for closed cycle thorium reactors. Uranium-233, chemically separated from irradiated thorium, is highly radioactive and hence hard to handle for fuel assembly fabrication. In addition, separated uranium-233 is always contaminated with uranium-232. Uranium-232 is radioactive, has a half life of 68.9 years and produces strong gamma emitters like thallium-208 as decay products. [38]

      Secondly, there are technical difficulties in recycling thorium due to the high radioactivity of thorium-228 which is a decay product of the contaminant uranium-232. [39]

      Thirdly, there is some nuclear proliferation risk with uranium-233 if it can be separated.

      And fourthly, there are technical problems in reprocessing spent fuel from these reactors.’

      Source:

      http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/RP/2007-08/08RP11.htm

      Some notes: It is possible to use Uranium 233 to make bombs - it just hasn’t been done much, quite possibly because the element appears to be made (from my reading so far) only for use with thorium, so there’s not much of it around.

      Uranium 232 - which always contaminates U233 - is far more hazardous than plutonium to handle.

      In other words, it’s more dangerous than the stuff currently being used in nuclear reactors.

      So already - with only a little googling - we’re starting to see problems with thorium, which apparenlty this author’s exhaustive research have failed to uncover.

      BTW, judging by his CV, Curt Stager has a background very similar to Tim Flannery’s—just sayin’.

      And I’m not ‘anti thorium’ - just investigating it! But when a technology has been kicking around for a number of years and seems no closer to implementation than it did then, there has to be some serious issues with it.

    • Jim says:

      09:06am | 24/05/11

      Must you always rubbish something in your typically smug and superior manner because it does not form part of your weekly missive from your ALP employers?

      *rolls eyes*

    • Sony B Goode says:

      10:22am | 24/05/11

      Not a single issue that could not be overcome by diverting the couple of billion spent on rudds UN seat push to research.

      Funny too how you become sceptical when a solution doesn’t line up with your cause.

      We know your type and your cause.

      Freedom of choice and trade in a market necessarily cause vast inequality in outcome (the science on that is well settled).

      Leftists rail against this inequality caused by the summation of individual choices amplified by a network. Leftist’s belief in material equality necessarily requires authoritarian solutions, individual choices must be modified or progress must be stifled, since they can’t easily achieve this aim,  redistribution is the primary weapon of the modern leftist or “progressive”.

      The science on leftist politics is well settled, the solution is flat rate taxes to ensure progressives do not have money to squander on endless wasteful schemes that ultimately harm the very people they are trying to help.

    • HappyCynic says:

      10:44am | 24/05/11

      @Jim

      Funny thing is, if you bothered looking for a few minutes instead of slagging people off you’d see that the problems she’s listed are true, although those 4 problems are really only one or two.

      U-233 is not really effective to make into nuclear weapons since it requires much higher energies to set off a fission explosion and is far less radioactive than plutonium seeded weapons.  So U-233 is inefficient in a nuke.

      The gamma emitters are the big problem, thallium-208 emits a 2.6 MeV gamma ray, in a few hundred parts per trillion like the U-232 contamination in highly enrighed uranium (aka HEU) used in current reactors this isn’t much of a problem to health (shielding is largely ineffective on gamma rays since the diameter of the waves is smaller than the diameter of an atom).  However the U-232 contamination of U-233 from thorium enrichment is in the order of about 5 parts per million which is roughly 10,000 times greater than HEU, posing a far greater hazard to overcome.

      You can’t handle that level of gamma radiation unless you use hundreds of metres of shielding which means you need to mechanise the thorium reactor entirely, which poses a big technical challenge, one that technology hasn’t quite caught up with yet.

      I’m not against thorium but the issue of how to deal with U-232 must be solved first.

    • Razor says:

      11:00am | 24/05/11

      Well done.

      Answered the question that the writer obviously hadn’t tried to research.

    • TimB says:

      11:16am | 24/05/11

      ” But when a technology has been kicking around for a number of years and seems no closer to implementation than it did then, there has to be some serious issues with it. “

      Kinda like large-scale Solar power eh?

    • persephone says:

      01:08pm | 24/05/11

      TimB

      there are a lots of working large scale solar plants up and running.

      There are exactly no thorium plants.

      If the world organisation which oversees nuclear power won’t give something the green light, you know that there must be problems with it.

      I repeat: I’m not against thorium. The author said he couldn’t find any problems with it. I knew that if there’s something on the table which looks feasible and it isn’t happening, then there must BE problems, so I did a bit (not much at all) research into what these were. Then I reported back here.

      Convince me that these problems aren’t problems, or demonstrate to me that there are solutions, or show me why anyone would bother indulging in a world wide conspiracy to deprive thorium of its proper place.  I’ll listen to you.

      Slag off at me, and I’ll just conclude that my research is standing up, and there are major problems which must be overcome before thorium can be considered viable.

    • L. says:

      01:51pm | 24/05/11

      “there are a lots of working large scale solar plants up and running.”

      And lots of them have nuke power for base load.

    • St. Michael says:

      02:06pm | 24/05/11

      @ Persephone:

      “there are a lots of working large scale solar plants up and running.”

      Where, and do they provide baseload power?
      If they don’t, they’re a very expensive science experiment, nothing more.

    • persephone says:

      02:20pm | 24/05/11

      L

      and your point is???

    • L. says:

      03:20pm | 24/05/11

      “and your point is??? “

      My point is obvious… Why go through the expense of the solar farm, if the baselaod is being met by carbonless other means.

    • St. Michael says:

      03:27pm | 24/05/11

      @ Persephone: jumping on L, the point being that solar will never be able to provide the baseload power required to actually run a twentieth-century power grid comparably with a coal-fired or nuclear power station.  It’s a case of simple engineering.

      Thus the nuke backup, which sort of obviates the requirement for the solar plant in the first place.

    • persephone says:

      04:44pm | 24/05/11

      I wasn’t aware that I was discussing whether solar could provide baseload.

      To recap: someone suggested that solar was as unproven as thorium.

      I pointed out that there are solar plants running but there are no thorium plants running.

      Somehow you guys translate that as saying that solar can provide baseload.

      No it can’t. And at the moment, neither can thorium.

      In fact, at the moment, thorium - unlike solar - makes absolutely no contribution to energy supply.

      So (ergo and hence) solar is more of a proven technology than thorium is.

      Given that thorium is far less developed than solar, we don’t know what kind of power - baseload, supplementary, nix - it will be able to supply if developed.

    • TimB says:

      05:42pm | 24/05/11

      L is right Perse. I meant baseload power. What is the point of building plants that won’t produce the power we actually need?

      Thorium technology, if it works as advertised can easily supply baseload. Solar can’t make that claim. Not at all. The potential for Thorium generation is far more encouraging than solar.

    • persephone says:

      06:43pm | 24/05/11

      Oh, quick shifting of goal posts, Tim?

      Sorry, but something that works trumps something that doesn’t every time.

      Until thorium is out there as a proven technology we don’t know what it can do - so leaping to the blithe conclusion that it can supply baseload is simply wishful thinking.

    • TimB says:

      10:06pm | 24/05/11

      “Oh, quick shifting of goal posts, Tim?”

      Not at all. “Large scale”= “baseload” in my mind. Sorry I wasn’t clearer. I simply misspoke. Sue me.
      “Until thorium is out there as a proven technology we don’t know what it can do”

      Bloody hell Perse, of course we do. It’s basic physics. E=MC^2 and whatnot. We just haven’t worked out the engineering kinks yet. But we’re well on the way.

      The same cannot be said for solar, not on the necessary scale. Doesn’t even come close in efficiency.

    • persephone says:

      08:39am | 25/05/11

      TimB

      You can have large scale power production without it being baseload, but I accept that we were at cross purposes.

      We have solar. In the days before solar was actually implemented, there were all sorts of confident preditions (based on E = etc etc) that it would be able to provide baseload. Of course, it hasn’t, yet.

      So it doesn’t matter what the predictions are for thorium. Until it’s up and running, it’s all speculation.

      As for being ‘well on our way’ thorium reactors were first trialled in the 1970s, and the problems I’ve listed above were identified then.

      So, on that rate of progress, ‘well on our way’ would appear to mean that we’ve got another thirty years to go.

      Which, btw, is too short a timescale to address our present problems - and plenty of time to further develop other alternatives.

      Oh dear - this seems to be one of those issues which I’ve approached with an open mind and am being persuaded - by the paucity of the argument in favour of it -  that it’s not a goer.

    • Just Sayin' says:

      01:53pm | 25/05/11

      I’m not a persephone fan, but she’s done a great job of locating and posting some of the problems with Thorium power, which the original author did not.  (Thanks)

      I see these problems as a great reason for more research to see if they can be overcome or managed effectively.  There is absolutely no reason to exclude thorium as an option for meeting our long-term power requirements.  That would be as stupid as a decision to start bulding a thorium plant tomorrow.

      Persephone’s argument “when a technology has been kicking around for a number of years and seems no closer to implementation than it did then, there has to be some serious issues with it.” is only partly true.  Firstly, it may not have been cost effective in the past, but energy is getting more expensive.  Secondly, it played second fiddle in funding to uranium power because of better military applications of uranium.  Thirdly, the fact that no one has achieved it before is always a poor argument for not doing something. Fourthly, it has actually been done, just not on commercial scales.

      In short, we absolutely should be talking about Thorium, as a part of the (non-existent) rational and comprehensive debate on meeting our energy needs.

    • persephone says:

      03:26pm | 25/05/11

      Agreed, Just Sayin’.

      I really do have an open mind on this.

      It’s not thorium’s fault Tim’s arguments were tosh.

    • Harquebus says:

      09:10am | 24/05/11

      I could watch the video if you didn’t use that Flash “smelly brown stuff”, but, I ain’t that stupid!!! Hurf durf yes I am.

    • Horthy says:

      12:23pm | 24/05/11

      Cock it down a notch, eh? I’m watching the vid on a device that doesn’t support flash. You seem bright enough to know how to switch between flash and html5/h264, why don’t you just do it?

    • SimpleSimon says:

      09:47am | 24/05/11

      A minor point in the article, but something I consider to be very beneficial, is the point about clean hydrogen fuels from the splitting of water. Hydrogen fuel is the way of the future for cars and other personal transport. As long as electric cars need to be plugged in, take all night to charge and run out of juice in a hundred k’s it’s simply not good enough.

      In LA, Honda (and possibly others) have released cars that run using hydrogen fuel cells. These cars are filled up the same way you would a petrol car, but instead of petrol the pump dispenses liquid hydrogen. The fuel economy and performance are roughly on par with petrol cars of the same variety (family sedans), but the only output from the car is Hydrogen and Oxygen - H2O - water.

      If governments want to stop people using gas-guzzlers and reduce their personal emmisions from their cars, THIS is the future - not electric.

      The drawbacks of electric cars mean they are impractical and inadequate for the lives we have come to live that are largely based around the cars we have today. If we are to move forward, we need a replacement for petrol that doesn’t compromise the convenience we have grown accustomed to.

    • stevem says:

      01:43pm | 24/05/11

      Hydrogen cars - either burnt or used in fuel cells would be a great idea. the only 2 small problems are getting the hydrogen and storing it.
      Current hydrogen production either produces CO2 or uses electricity also, in Australia, creating CO2. No benefit there. The other problem is storing it. The molecules are so mall they find their way through whatever pressure vessel they are stored in.
      Perhaps a thorium cycle reactor to electrolyse the water to make the hydrogen coupled with a new storage solution would work. We still need to get the electricity though.

    • iansand says:

      03:01pm | 24/05/11

      Hey!!  I have a great idea!!!  I wonder if the electricity produced from solar power stations, or wind farms, is the right kind of electricity to produce this hydrogen stuff?  A bit whacky.  A bit left field.  But it might just work!!!!

    • Shifter says:

      05:33pm | 24/05/11

      @iansand - Brilliant! Meanwhile the Thorium reactor can provide the rest of the power we need.

    • HappyCynic says:

      10:07am | 24/05/11

      Uranium 232 is the problem.  Neutron enrichment of Thorium 232 produces U-233 which is the fissile material used in Thorium reactors.  The problem starts here, there will always be some contamination of the U-233 with small amounts of U-232.  This emits high energy gamma radiation as it decays.

      Gamma radiation is very difficult and expensive to shield against and poses an enormous health risk to anyone working in or around a thorium reactor.  Other isotopes of Uranium and Plutonium currently in use don’t have this problem.

      If you can work around the U-232 issue then yes thorium would be an excellent nuclear fuel.

    • Jim says:

      11:02am | 24/05/11

      Umm…gamma rays are the easiest to contain. A water bath or a plastic shield will do the trick…

    • St. Michael says:

      11:45am | 24/05/11

      @ Jim: The Hulk disagrees with you!

    • HappyCynic says:

      01:46pm | 24/05/11

      @Jim

      Umm I’m not sure if you’re confusing alpha or beta particles with gamma particles but you’re way off.  How effectively something shields gamma radiation depends on the energy levels being released and the wavelength.  Low energy gamma emissions are easy to contain, (less than 0.1 MeV), but high energy emissions are not.

      But hey don’t let your lack of a science education get in the way of facts.

    • Jim says:

      03:03pm | 24/05/11

      @HappyCynic - I have a couple of science degrees but hey, you carry on sunshine smile

      I’ve worked with online analysers that emit gamma radiation for years - all that ARPANSA require is high density poly as shielding. For the application I worked with, 25mm of shielding was all that was needed. Obviously higher energy emissions require more shielding and you start moving into concrete walls and lead lining, but it is not an issue for any well designed plant.

      PS: I once lost my radiation tag and found it a month later underneath the analyser - didn’t ARPANSA come down on me like a tonne of bricks when I sent it in for the 6-weekly round!!

    • Erick says:

      03:58pm | 24/05/11

      Let’s not forget that we are a nation with some of the most advanced mining technology in the world.

      We could easily bury any reactor hundreds of metres under the ground.

    • St. Michael says:

      04:23pm | 24/05/11

      @ Erick: what, say right at Meckering?

    • St. Michael says:

      11:53am | 24/05/11

      “There’s no perfect solution to our energy needs and it’s important to acknowledge that even LFTR-nukes may have their own unique flaws.  Choosing the best path forward will require a thoughtful and open discussion of all aspects of that choice, not just the nuts and bolts but the practical human costs as well.”

      Then screw thorium.  Let’s talk about the one nuclear process whose byproduct is basically the safest nuclear byproduct known to man, and whose fuel comes from demonstrably the most plentiful element on the planet: nuclear fusion.  It’s the process that powers the Sun, and has a massive energy output to energy input potential.

      There’s at least 3 sites on Earth which are experimenting with controlled fusion reactions, and—though it’s been said before, I admit—they’re only a couple of decades away from practical use.  If you can create a controllable star here on Earth, one that cannot go nova or explode in the way a nuclear reactor can, you will create all the energy the planet could ever need.  Nuclear fission, whether uranium or thorium, becomes obsolete in a matter of years.

      Thorium reactors are like the NBN of nuclear research: sure, you can build it, and spend a shitload of money doing so, and yes, you’ll address your energy shortages for a while, but around the same time it gets operational fusion energy will take its place shortly thereafter.  Let’s not do this.  Let’s not give the commie, er, Green movement any more split atoms to protest against.  Let’s not have any more waste pits or plutonium to build bombs with.  Let’s not go with subsistence-level energy poverty which is what you get from solar, wind, and thermal.  Let’s move into the goddamn 21st century of our parents and grandparents’ dreams and solve this planet’s energy crisis once and for all.

    • Damian Parkhill says:

      01:14pm | 24/05/11

      I would disagree Michael, while the outlook for fusion reactors is promising - they are still about 10-15 years off mass production, while Thorium is available to us now, also Thorium has one heavy advantage over fusion - that being that the reactors can be miniaturized, which opens up a number of possibilities that extend beyond just the whole “need to replace coal plants”.

    • St. Michael says:

      02:04pm | 24/05/11

      @ Damien: well, hence why I compared them to the NBN.  You could spend billions reconfiguring (or building) nuclear reactors to take thorium, only to find 10-15 years from now that other countries are about to put fusion reactors into production.  Fusion reactors would make thorium reactors obsolete in all except Third World countries.

    • stevem says:

      02:59pm | 24/05/11

      St. Michael, how did you enter you comments? Soon we’ll have much more powerful, cheaper PC’s. It would be silly to invest in a PC now because it will soon become superseded. Much more sensible to wait until they are more mature.
      You have to bite the bullet some time and settle for the best of the day.

    • St. Michael says:

      03:25pm | 24/05/11

      @ stevem: Incorrect comparison.  The difference between a working fusion reactor and a fission reactor is so game-changing it’s not comparing next year’s PC with this year’s.

      It’s more like deciding to buy a manual typewriter so you can write next year’s letters to Aunt Maisie on it when Dell is telling you for the same or slightly higher price it’s putting out a computer that can type, scan, go on the Internet, print, edit, and publish all in one session.

      Although I suppose there are still idiot writers who use the former.

    • stevem says:

      03:55pm | 24/05/11

      St. Michael. My point is there is always something new coming along. When fusion becomes available, second generation fusion will be just around the corner and will promise to be more efficient, powerful and cheaper.
      When we need to build a power station we have to pick the best option available at the time. There’s no point having blackouts every day while we wait.

    • Jordan Rastrick says:

      04:00pm | 24/05/11

      Fusion reactors might be commercially viable in 10 years, or 40, or 200. We can’t afford to gamble on the technology coming along sooner rather than later and solving all our problems. We need to start investing in the improved versions of the fission and renewable technologies available now or in the near future, to keep the global economy going over until fusion and other revolutionary technologies are ready to use.

      Do a pop quick of actual physicists working on fusion research about whether we should hold off building any other types of alternative plants while we wait for them to develop the technology.

    • Markus says:

      04:01pm | 24/05/11

      Nothing comes close to satisfying the rant-writing urge like a good ol’ fashioned typewriter.

    • Damian Parkhill says:

      01:25pm | 24/05/11

      Curt, the reason that Thorium power has been sidelined for so long isn’t just the whole nuclear issue, Thorium reactors when created in the 1950’s had problems with issues such as precise controlling (which was overcome a while ago with super powerful computers) & refinement (Thorium as I understand was very hazardous to refine which has been since overcome with automation).

      Simply put, its a good option, only it crept up at the wrong time!

      But I’m glad you raised the topic, with so much bullshit going around about climate change, peak oil and decreasing fossil fuels. Thorium is one step forward that we can take without the need to start riots over carbon taxs

    • The Badger says:

      02:07pm | 24/05/11

      As a staunch conservative I believe that given the technology has been around since the 50’s and if it worked, the market would have had it in production ages ago.

    • stevem says:

      03:06pm | 24/05/11

      The reason it never made it was that it was simply not as efficient as the other kinds of reactor such as the fast breeder. Waste and risk were not considered to be drawbacks given the huge amount of power that was able to be generated. Today we are more interested in reducing waste and increasing safety - hence the Thorium cycle.

    • Jim says:

      03:06pm | 24/05/11

      As a staunch cynic I believe that the technology recieved no funding to move it into a feasibility stage as certain governments were lured by the prospect of plutonium byproducts from the other process….much like the way water powered engines that were invented in the 50’s were buried by major oil companies!

    • Daniel says:

      04:08pm | 24/05/11

      Jim, really.
      Someone claimed to have made a water powered engine in the 50’s but funnily enough since then noone else has been able to replicate it and produce a working prototype that doesn’t require more energy put into it than you get out. Because it’s conspiracy, and “big oil” doesn’t want us to have free energy

    • Just Sayin' says:

      02:01pm | 25/05/11

      Many people HAVE claimed to replicate water engines, I even found plans on the internet once.  I was planning to (sceptically) build one with my father, but we decided not to bother when we realised it was physics-defying perpetual motion engine.

      (It split water into hydrogen and oxygen, ran on hydrogen power, and had nothing but water vapour for waste.  How you get an energy OUTPUT by heating water is mystifying)

    • michael j says:

      02:42pm | 24/05/11

      The Capitalist grubs once again Conspire to rule the world,our system of life is set upon Fossil Fuels and nobody that is making a quid out of it is going to let that
      change ,They would rather see 4 billion people starve to death in a Great Famine (2048 ) then give up their POWER over Life ,You will see drilling for oil beneath the polar icecaps before you ever see anythink like a working Thorium Nuclear,,,,,

    • bikinis on top says:

      08:47pm | 24/05/11

      May 24 is Cracker Night.
      Bonfires, Fireworks, sky rockets,  and Crackers used tohelp us to provide the energy on Cracker Night.
      Now all we get on Cracker Night, Is a new Bob Katter political party.It deserves a sky rocket after fireworks.

 

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