From August till the end of the year is the season for science awards. Eureka Prizes, Prime Minister’s Prizes, State Awards for Science Excellence, The Unsung Hero of Science Award, The State Scientists of the Year, Nobel Prizes … on it goes; the glittering array of rewards for those who have truly advanced knowledge and improved the lot of mankind.

Medicare queue circa 2012. Pic: AFP

Predictably, most of the speeches that laud the winners will mention something like the growing number of Australia’s Nobel laureates in science, how this is a time when science is paramount, how our lives are dependent on science and technology and how virtually every benefit we now enjoy - from better health and longer lives to the internet and safer cars - is the product of scientific processes, improved technology and their application.

Why, then, is this era in which we live apparently the most superstitious and anti-science period since the Middle Ages? Pseudoscience and non-science not only abound, they are actively embraced by thousands who subject themselves and (worse) their children to a variety of nonsensical alternative “treatments” that at their best cause no harm, but at their worst cause serious disease, disability or even death.

Reflexology, iridology, homeopathy, naturopathy, anti-vaccination, crystal healing… the list is huge and growing.

Explanations are many. The huge dropout rate from science in schools means that there are fewer people who actually understand how science works. Maybe this lack of understanding induces fear of the unknown, so that non-science is seen as somehow safer than science.

Perhaps the complexity of science means that people happily opt for simplistic alternatives, however wrong, just as people flooded with too much information when they search for a house ultimately choose one simply because they like the door handle. There is probably a clue in the way that most alternative treatments are said to involve “energy,” “vibrations,” “purifying the blood,” or a host of other impressive but vague terms which sound vaguely scientific but hold absolutely no meaning at all.

Take, for example, the claim of The Chiropractor’s Association of Australia that “innate intelligence” determines body-wide health, that changes to spinal anatomy they call “subluxation” interfere with the “guiding energy” of innate intelligence and that adjustments can “cure 95 per cent of what ails man”.

Perhaps claims like that are so sweeping and all-embracing that they overwhelm, like the chiropractic paediatric websites which claim that this “adjustment” can help many potentially serious childhood conditions including “fever, colic, croup, allergies, wheezing, poor posture, stomach-ache, hearing loss, headaches, asthma, bed-wetting, bronchitis learning disorders, arthritis, poor concentration…“ and many other problems.

That is such a large net that catching only a few vulnerable converts - and most people with children are pretty vulnerable - will earn a tidy bit of income.

Undoubtedly some alternative treatments, dressed up as they are as “ancient wisdom,” “mysteries of the East” and “secrets of the ages” are cosmetically more exciting than an hour’s wait for a prescription in a conventional doctor’s waiting room with nothing to read but old copies of New Idea; almost anything beats that. It is also true that some alternative pursuits, unhampered by any ethical or advertising restraints, can claim what they like and spend a great deal on self-promotion.

Real doctors can’t do that, and most don’t want to.

Paradoxically, while spouting this nonsense about the wisdom of centuries-old pursuits (remember those times when the life span was 30 if you were lucky, and one third of Europe died of the plague, which they thought was caused by ‘miasmas’ in the air?), the practitioners of these pseudosciences get to parasitise not only the terminology of science but also the trappings of its conventionality.

You find the same thing with anti-evolutionary creationists who, while denying the real and demonstrable discoveries of science, are nonetheless content to adopt its terminology with meaningless terms like “Creation Science,” to lend their faith-based absurdities a bit of pilfered respectability. The alternative health brigade demand to assume the role of primary health carer, and are routinely photographed in white coats while calling themselves “Doctor.”

Think I am exaggerating? The 2011 annual report of the Chiropractors Association of Australia claims “We are in a unique position to be in the forefront of primary care and the natural leaders in prevention and wellness for Australia. Our intellectual property over the power of subluxation and its impact on health is well understood by the CAA.” 

In 2010 they reported that “after ten years of hard slog by the CAA every chiropractor in the country will be permitted under legislation to use the title doctor.”

Medical doctors and those who have a doctorate in a scientific discipline have earned that title, not by 10 years of hard political slog to insist on being called it, but by 10 years of scientific study; evaluated not by themselves but by independent examiners well versed in evidence-based practice who are equipped to assess the scientific validity of knowledge and research.

You can find many people who will swear by their alternative treatments. Why, then, would you consider them to be inferior to evidence-based treatments?  That phenomenon has, itself, been well researched.

First there is the placebo effect. Very powerful, it means that people given a sugar pill that they think will help, actually do feel better. It is not the treatment that works but the expectation of it. It even works when they know it is a sugar pill, but they don’t conclude that the placebo did the job; they assume that the treatment is effective.

Second, there is regression to the mean. People who get a cold feel terrible, but usually improve after about three days. They also feel bad enough on the third day to go to the doctor.

Irrespective of what treatment they get there, they feel better on the fourth day, but put it down to the doctor’s ministrations, not to natural recovery. The same is true if they consult a charlatan.

What practices can truly claim to be scientific or evidence-based? In short, they have to assume natural laws are involved, not mystical influences. They have to lend themselves to hypothesis, which means that you stick your neck out and say what you think will happen under certain circumstances. Some alternative practices get as far as that but most stop there.

The scientific bit comes when you set up a well-designed experiment or trial to test your hunch, introduce a control condition for comparison, get unbiased judges to vet your results (all of them), deal with their queries to the satisfaction of other independent witnesses and finally publish your study if it meets the approval of well-credentialled assessors who will try to fault your experimental design, methodology and conclusions.

Other people then repeat your experiment and, if they get different results, they say so, helping to weed out inaccuracies from science’s long list of evidence-based discoveries. You don’t get there by self-assessment among your disciples or by loosely claiming achievements, pointing to what you claim as successes while hiding your failures, relying on those who support you while ignoring critics, and dressing the whole thing up in vague descriptions, mystical references and invented terminology that sounds impressive but defies analysis, let alone experimental verification.

Why has all of this surfaced now? A group of doctors and scientists has just gone public to protest at the growing numbers of universities offering pseudoscience and alternative courses as though they are evidence-based and scientifically valid. It is easy to see why some universities do this; there is a quid in it, but in doing so they put at risk their credibility and that of their staff and their other science and health degrees, some of which are first class.

The number of universities involved is surprisingly large and growing.  At least 14 universities across five states and territories now offer courses from homeopathy and chiropractic to aromatherapy and reflexology. Many courses lurk under general terms such as “Complementary Medicine” and “Alternative Therapies”. When in doubt, be vague; it is harder to discredit.

The trigger for this group of scientists has been the plan by Central Queensland University (CQU) to offer a degree in chiropractic, starting in 2012, but they have broadened their criticism to include pseudoscience in general and quackery in the name of science in particular.

This is not a territorial grab by medicos. Some of the group are pure scientists, but all of them understand and support the crucial role that science plays in sorting out truth from assertion in the health arena. They stress that they are not trying to stop the public accessing alternative therapists or unproven therapies, but they do want false claims about them to be policed effectively, and they want the public made aware about their lack of scientific evidence base.

They would also like to save you a lot of money. At present, partly because the pseudoscience practitioners are strident lobbyists, taxpayers’ money goes to funding their courses and even to reimbursing people who undertake their invalid procedures. The group of scientists advocates the stopping of federal funding to courses on unproven anti-science alternative medical therapies, and they urge that science–based universities stop endorsing dubious health practices.

They also urge that health funds offer insurance plans that allow the public to opt out of paying for alternative therapies that are not evidence-based.

When Prime Minister Gillard assumed that position, much was made of the government being guided in its future decisions by evidence-based information. Right! Good idea! Let’s follow through! As the group of scientists says, there should be greater government regulation of unproven claims for alternative therapies, both by therapists and for alternative medicines. They should also revisit who, in the supposed health arena, is entitled to call themselves “doctor.”

It is a paradox, and more than alarming, that if I want to set myself up as a medical practitioner, I will have to earn the right to do it, or if I want to foist a new drug onto the populace, I will need to subject it to serious scientific analysis by independent and highly qualified people.

Yet I can create a new ‘treatment,” attribute its power to the wisdom of anonymous ancients, describe it in mysterious but meaningless pseudoscientific terminology, declare some toxic plant a ‘beneficial herb,” label myself a doctor and proceed virtually unhindered to damage the gullible or, at best, keep them and their possibly dangerous illnesses from real treatments of proven value.

Back in the “ancient times” so beloved of some of this alternative brigade, surgeons were actually barbers, well equipped with razors to open the veins of their patients for a bit of blood-letting; the fashionable treatment of the time. The “doctors” of America’s wild west were self-proclaimed therapists, peddling worthless and sometimes dangerous patent medicines to people who knew no better than to trust them.

It is extraordinary that, in this most scientific and technologically advanced age of any time, when accurate information about disease and its effective treatment is available as never before, we should be reverting to pseudoscientific nonsense when it comes to the health and safety of ourselves and the people that we love, and paying dearly for it in the process.

When that is encouraged by institutions that should be among our most trusted advocates of evidence-based heath science, and the governments that fund them, it must be time for some serious evaluation of what has gone wrong.

233 comments

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    • Super D says:

      06:16am | 08/12/11

      Its an oldie but a goodie -

      What do you call alternative medicine that works?  Medicine.
      Now the government looks set to reduce the rebates it pays for private healthcare.  A sensible starting point for this would be to refuse a rebate on any policy that includes any funding of complementary medicine.  Surely that taxpayer should only be asked to contribute to treatments that can be demonstrated to work.

      Much like the anti-vaccination crowd discussed recently, from my observation alternative medicine enthusiasts display an unerring belief in the speculative forecasts currently described as “climate science”.  I do so wish they’d advocate using crystals rather than taxation to “heal the planet”.

    • Trevor says:

      07:21am | 08/12/11

      SuperD

      “...alternative medicine enthusiasts display an unerring belief in the speculative forecasts currently described as “climate science”. “

      That’s a perverse way of thinking of things. I would place AGW deniers under the cult of ‘she’ll be right mate’- the antithesis of science.

    • Tedd says:

      07:48am | 08/12/11

      Wow. Way to conflate two or three disparate fields (climate science, alternate medicine, and medicine proper). Unnecessary. Irrational.

    • Erick says:

      08:14am | 08/12/11

      @Super D - See my comment in the open thread regarding Climategate.

      This blatant scientific misconduct has done much to harm the reputation of science in general. The refusal of the scientific establishment even to acknowledge that the issue exists only damages their credibility further.

      This is what happens when ideology dominates science.

      Add to that the dodgy political studies published by The Lancet as part of the campaign against MMR vaccines and George Bush. A once-fine publication now reduced to crap.

      Then we have the outright pseudoscience being practiced in such fields as gender studies, sociology, anthropology and psychology - all in the name of political correctness.

      The scientific and academic establishments have contributed greatly to the demise of their own credibility. Until they acknowledge this, they won’t get it back.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      08:18am | 08/12/11

      There is no greater junk science than “climate change”.

      One only has to peruse the climate gate II emails to see politics, that is socialist politics has thoroughly corrupted science.

    • TChong says:

      09:04am | 08/12/11

      EricK and SonnyB
      Claiming that all science and scientists have lost credability to to the climate change debate is rather short sighted.
      How is climate change , for or against,  got anything to do with scientists and science of medicine, or any other part of life that involves science, and its practioners?
      Socialist politics corrupts scienc?
      Whats your take on Conservative Creationists and their version of ‘science” ?
      a god made Earth was in 6 days? caveman had dinosaur as pets ?
      Thats Conservative “science”.

    • Erick says:

      09:25am | 08/12/11

      @TChong - You didn’t read all of my comment, did you? It isn’t just Climategate that’s damaging the credibility of science - it’s *all* the politicised science.

      Politics corrupts everything it touches, and science is no exception.

    • TChong says:

      10:01am | 08/12/11

      I read yur post Eck, thats why I found it strange , from yourself , with your oft stated reliance on reality etc.
      In any and every human pursuit abberations may be found, ideas evolve, some kept, just as many dicarded
      Thats why relying on exaples that have been supercede aint helpful.
      If god forbid, you or I suffer a heart attck,or stroke,  I know I would be very willing to undergo clot busting therapies- develpoed by , yes,(shudder) science and scientists !
      I hope you would do the same.
      Whats the point of dissing “science”, and all it has to offer, because of what you percieve as past poiticising of some aspects of some “science”?

    • Kika says:

      10:54am | 08/12/11

      I am so over private health. Not only because it’s a huge waste of money (recently had 2 emergency situations in 2 weeks where our health fund refused to help us with hospital treatment because they needed to ‘assess’ our claim to ensure it wasn’t a pre-existing condition - yes my husband has been walking around with a knicked arterty for 10 months) but I vehemently refuse to pay for my health fund to pay for others to seek naturopathy or iridology…. all of these costs add up to my premium increases so next year I’m not even going to bother.

    • Erick says:

      11:01am | 08/12/11

      @TChong - I’m not dissing science. I’m a big fan of science.

      What I’m dissing is the corruption of science for the sake of ideology. This includes creationism, Climategate, advocacy research, bullshit studies, and all the other crap that has been building up over the years.

      The academic and scientific establishments share some of the blame for the diminution of science, through tolerating such crap for political or monetary reasons.

    • Bertrand says:

      12:01pm | 08/12/11

      It sounds to me that Erick and Super D like science unless they disagree with the political or economic implications of it. The heat trapping capabilities of greenhouse gases was proven by science in the 19th century.  Without their presence in our atmosphere we would freeze to death every night. They are why Venus i hotter than Mercury. To deny that dumping billions of tons of heat trapping gases into the atmosphere is going to result in more heat being trapped is to deny hundreds of years of scientific evidence to the contrary.

    • Erick says:

      12:19pm | 08/12/11

      @Bertrand - I’m not denying the heat trapping capabilities of greenhouse gases, nor the idea that there are environmental consequences. In fact, I think anthropic global climate change is a highly probable scenario.

      What I am doing is objecting to bad science and fraudulent science. Climategate and other scandals in related fields are examples of this. As long as the science establishment fails to acknowledge and correct these problems, science will lose credibility among the public.

      Likewise for other dodgy research, such as the Lancet “studies” on Iraq war casualties, and large slabs of sociology, anthropology, and psychology. Science should not be driven by a political agenda, because that makes for bad science.

    • Shama says:

      05:21pm | 08/12/11

      As a tech person I have to agree with Erick on some points.

      No one is arguing with scientific methodology but modern science is a complex beast and prone to corruption. As one wag put it objective science died the day science was provided funding.  There is a lot of good science being done but a lot of bad science too and weeding out the latter is not always addressed by peer review.

      Plus there is the money.  Like the push to make cosmetic surgery the sole province of medical doctors because it is so lucrative.  Or the many ills of the pharma industry all of whose drugs are technically a result of scientific methodology but also driven by marketing.

      So alternative therapies are dubious for sure but one of the reasons the medical establishment keeps pushing back at them is partly because of the $$$.

    • acotrel says:

      06:05pm | 08/12/11

      I like aromatherapy the best !  I always think of the healing powers when I fart in a lift !

    • OpenMinded says:

      07:49am | 09/12/11

      Well, I always respected Rob as a scientist but now he has joined the SA witch-hunt against natural medicine, he has lost my vote.  Does he not know that 18,000 Australians die each year due to allopathic medicine, mostly from wrongly prescribed medications?  (Go research morbidity reports, Rob, all freely available from reputable health sites). I am also worried by the fact that the modern batch of medical graduates have a lesser Anatomy and Physiology qualifications than my naturopath.  A&P has been downgraded in medical degrees because the fledgling doctors find it ‘too hard to learn’ and most have fewer than 30 hours of training in this.  Why should Rob and the sheeple object if people exercise their right to work with their natural body systems to improve their health?  After all, natural therapies are generally not refunded by Medicare or health funds and keep people from clogging up the health system.  As for vibrational medicine being practised by ‘charlatans’, Rob obviously not read the treatises on this written by the likes of Barbara Brennan (a noted physicist) and many reputable allopathic medicine specialists.  As the ultimate authority that this works, Jesus used it.  Western ‘scientific’ medicine and psychiatry are less than two centuries old.  Ancient Asian sciences of the mind and proven ‘alternative’ natural medicines go back many thousands of years with documented evidence of efficacy.  Ayurveda, for example firmly believes that you are what you eat and your state of mind determines your wellbeing.  Food is your medicine.  I will take a good vindaloo over a chemical anti-viral any day.  No, I am not a ‘health nut’ but a person who has been to four universities plus have a PhD in Hard Nox.  I am also asthmatic, have Type 2 diabetes and chronic arthritis, all of which I treat my self by watching what I eat.  I rarely visit the doctor and the PBS does not hand me tens of thousands of dollars of pills every year.  I also consult a chiropractor for pain relief that works.  If you don’t believe that natural medicine works, Rob, go talk to the huge number of GPs, internal medicine specialist and others who are Reiki and Seichim practitioners, Ayurvedic doctors, have degrees in naturopathy as well as their medical degrees, are trained in Chiropractic, or are just open minded enough to refer their patients to complementary health practitioners to give their patients better quality of life.  I think my former Adelaide doctor said it best:  I can give you a pill and you will be well in 2 weeks.  I can tell you not to take a pill and it will take you 14 days for your body to heal itself, that is what it is designed to do.  QED.

    • Health Professional says:

      08:45am | 09/12/11

      What an arrogant, ignorant and ill researched article that just repeats the shibboleths of those who ridicule what they they do not comprehend.  How do you get from Superstition, a personal belief system, to a debunking of therapies that in many cases do require at least an accredited Advanced Diploma, right through to post-graduate qualifications in the case of chiropractic?  I once asked a medical specialist who was studying naturopathy what was the difference between her first medical degree and her naturopathy studies.  Her reply:  surgical intervention.  She now integrates naturopathic treatments into her specialist practice to improve the quality of life for chronic disease sufferers, including those like my husband with a genetic disorder for which no allopathic treatment can effect a cure.  Rob, leave the comments on both human psyche and human health to those of us who are qualified to comment on such things.  To my knowledge you do not have health profession training.  Your article is not the reasoned, evidence backed and proven hypothesis one expects from the world of science and scientists.  Quit jumping on belief driven closed-mind bandwagons and go back to showing little kiddies why gizmos fly.  You were at least good at that.

    • jade says:

      11:42am | 09/12/11

      Im ok with natural medicines when there is some logic to their use. As a netballer ive spent more time in physio than most and i found the only thing to fix a plethora of leg issues was acupuncture at the suggestion of my physio. -it causes a more specifc bloodflow to the site of pain doing the same as massge.
      And when i was younger my dad who has suffered ulcerative collitis, a horrible gi tract disease his “doctor” told him to eat processed foods, despite my dad knowing that it caused more pain. Facing losing his colon he decided to see a naturopath who told him all the things “real medicine” is only just catching up on.  “alternative medicine” saved his colon, has saved me a long lasting amd debilitating pain.
      Im not sure how i feel about crystals but a bit of good old commonsense in treating ailments does wonders, apparently something not taught to medical students. Raw honey for a sore throat? Or chemical alternatives? I know what i prefer.
      Apply rebates within reason, its not all quack job stuff. Just people to remind us to use a bit of good old common sense and techniques which have been used for thousands of years for healing.

    • venisejb@bigpond.com says:

      06:00pm | 09/12/11

      ROB MORRISON: Good article. Should you require any further illustration of the gullibility of the average person, read on.

      There’s a cosmetic company which is espousing a brand of mascara which claims to have your eyelashes spurting with good health and new growth, within six weeks.

      The thing they don’t tell their unfortunate customers is the fact that everybody’s eyelashes grow every six weeks. Almost as good a lie as God came to earth in the form of his mum, his dad, and the holy ghost.

    • acotrel says:

      08:50am | 10/12/11

      @jade
      ‘Just people to remind us to use a bit of good old common sense and techniques which have been used for thousands of years for healing. ‘

      In 1940 a policeman was treated for septicaemia with penicillin.  He still died because of insufficient supply, but he survived a bit longer than usual.  What do you think would have happened in the preceding ‘thousands of years’ ?

    • Mike says:

      07:00am | 08/12/11

      Hmmm…  Never been to a Chirpractor, then…?

    • Horse says:

      07:56am | 08/12/11

      It remains to be proven that chiropractic manipulation does anything for specific conditions; or does anything over and above exercise regimes such as calisthetics or calisthenics;or both.

    • Rocksteady says:

      07:10pm | 08/12/11

      There is no conclusive evidence that seeing a chiropractor fixes anything, and this is after decades of research.
      The only benefit proven comes from physical manipulation of the muscles around the area the chiro is working.
      Which is exactly what a physio does, just a lot better.

    • Anthony says:

      07:14am | 08/12/11

      I am a doctor and I cannot treat lower back pain effectively. Apart from telling the patient to suck it up and take simple analgesia and see a physio who invariably flairs up the pain, I am useless. If these Academics in their Ivory tower have a better solution for my patients than a chiropractor I am all ears. Where is the evidence for cortisone injections that doctors perform and medicare funds?

    • Tedd says:

      07:45am | 08/12/11

      Persistent lower back pain ought to be investigated with through clinical and neurological examination, and advanced imaging such as MRI, before persisting with “best-guess therapies” including analgesia and chiropractic woo.

    • marley says:

      08:21am | 08/12/11

      My better half has had back problems for years (including a discectomy some years back).  A couple of acute attacks of back pain have been handled with cortisone injections - and yes, they’ve worked.  For the rest, exercise, including tai chi, plus NSAIDS when needed, have made the chronic pain manageable. 

      Medicine may not have all the answers, but I’ have seen any evidence to suggest that chiropractic has any of them.

    • Al says:

      08:39am | 08/12/11

      The ‘Theory’ (and I use the term in a definately Non-Scientific context) of Chiropractics is actualy nearly identical to other debunked ‘theroies’ such as reflexology (simple substitute sub-luxation of the spine for foot).
      No evidence, no testing, nothing.
      At best it provides the same benefits of a decent massage.
      At worst it can cause numerous conditions including paralysis or death.
      The worst thing is the many chiropractors who make outrageous claims regarding what they are actualy able to achieve. (Including claims that it can cure autisim etc).
      Sure, it can help those with genuine back/spinal issues. The rest is simply BS.

    • Phill says:

      09:35am | 08/12/11

      Anthony, please tell me where you practice medicine.  I’ll avoid you like the plague….

    • I, Claudia says:

      10:47am | 08/12/11

      Phill, in what I’m sure you believed to be an attempt at playing on words, you’ve actually exposed your ignorance. Anthony’s correct - western medicine does have a rather poor history for treating back pain. Basically, we can’t really do anything other than prescribe painkillers. That’s it. Any honest doctor will tell you that. I’ve never been to a chiropractor and I’m sure that Anthony’s not recommending that you do, either - he’s just stating that if western medicine can’t treat a problem, it may be worthwhile investigating other options.

    • dancan says:

      11:02am | 08/12/11

      I was thinking the exact same thing Phill

    • Kika says:

      11:07am | 08/12/11

      Listen quacks, just because something is ‘eastern’ doesn’t mean it’s better or more advanced than our medicine.
      Spines are difficult to treat and fix because of what they are - your spine.  Your central nervous system runs all the way through it into your brain. It’s complicated.

      My mum has chronic back pain and has been in and out of chriopractors for months and has had MRIs and all they can really do to help her is pain relief.  She has a compacted verterbrae which can’t be fixed and surgery would be far too invasive and risky.  However, her main problem is that she has natural aging degeneration in her spine which is making the pain of the compacted verterbrae worse.

      You can’t fix it. Pain relief is the only way to endure the pain. I agree with Anthony. Chiro is only and will only ever be a short term solution.

    • Anthony says:

      11:33am | 08/12/11

      @Phil, If you see me with chronic lower back pain I will tell you to take panadol, the occasional anti inflammatory remain active and try core strengthening with a physio. That is evidenced based medicine people. No other intervention has been shown to be of any benefit. If you don’t like my advice see someone else by all means, but there is no use repeatedly coming back to me winging about the same problem, if you want me to hold your hand and wisper sweet nothings in your ear then I will tell you to see someone else.

      @Tedd Any doctor that referred patients routinely with persistent lower back pain for an MRI would be done for overservicing, it is one of the most common reasons people see a doctor.

      @MArley good for your wife but there is no evidence to say that cortisone injections are better than chiro, physio or standard care. If these academics are being fair then they should look at cutting bach the rebate for xray guided injection

      I am not defending chiros who say they can fix everything but for chronic musculoskeletal complaints I think they have a role and a holier than though attitude displayed by academics who have their snouts in the trough is a bit rich.

    • Tedd says:

      11:49am | 08/12/11

      Anthony,
      yes persistent lower back pain is a very common condition, but that is not a reason why it should not be “worked-up” - not seeking further objective assessment is under-servicing.

      Yes, many chronic back pain suffers would simply benefit from better ‘core-strength’, but some need other interventions based on imaging and certain clinical tests.

    • Phill says:

      12:03pm | 08/12/11

      Anthony and I , Claudia,
      I would hope that a Dr would, for acute back pain, prescribe some mild pain relief, a period of rest followed by gentle stretching and exercise to strengthen core muscles..  What most people with back pain don’t need is inceredibly expensive x-rays followed by a long course of “manipulation”. The problem with Chiros I, Claudia, is that they will tell you they can fix a bad back along with all sorts of other claptrap.

      I used to have some respect for Chiros until I began working in the child health area and heard of many parents taking their children for long courses of Chiropractic treatment to fix everything from language delays to autism.  That, in my mind, is a particularly nasty form of snake oil…

    • ANthony says:

      12:06pm | 08/12/11

      @Tedd further investigation is required if there is fever, weight losss, persistent radicualr or bilateral redaicular pains or other red flag symptoms. By definition chronic back pain has none of these and yes does not need to be investigated beyond a plain xray. This is why people should see their doctor to have these things excluded on history and examination and not be irradiated unnecessarily or costing you the tax payer unecessary expense.

    • buellxb12Ss says:

      12:20pm | 08/12/11

      back pain ? regular swiming (freestyle) years ago i was whinging about back pain to an older bloke i worked with he asked me how often i swim ? never well it cant be too bad yet was his answer .the last 10 years i have done a 40 min swim before work each morning and back the back pain is gone. i wont say it works for everybody but it sure works for the 90% of blokes i see at my pool each morning

    • marley says:

      12:25pm | 08/12/11

      @Anthony - oh, I’m not suggesting cortisone injections as a matter of course.  But, in the specific circumstances my spouse was in at the time (excruciating pain, to the point of immobility), there weren’t many alternatives.  And I believe the evidence for short-term pain relief is reasonably good:  that’s all we were after and that’s what we got.  And the orthopedic surgeon who whacked in the shot didn’t use an x-ray guided injection - he did it by feel.  I guess they manage things differently in Italy!

      We’ve since seen another surgeon and a neurologist, both of whom have agreed that, should another flare up of that kind occur, a shot could be warranted, but otherwise, exercise, anti-inflammatories and pain-killers when required.  So I’m not disputing your basic point (and, fingers crossed, it’s been 10 years since that injection).

    • Anthony says:

      12:44pm | 08/12/11

      @Marly
      Like the Italy joke, xray guided injections attract a rebate paid by the tax payer anywhere from $150-300. WHen your wife had the injection the tax payer would have paid $25 for it to be done in the surgeons rooms. I give injections all the time knowing that there is just as much strong evidence as them giving relief as chiropractic therapy. I am suggesting if people are going to bag chiros then they should look a bit closer to home.

    • Tedd says:

      12:48pm | 08/12/11

      Anthony,
      narrowing further diagnostic tests to just those red-flag symptoms seem like under-servicing those without those them.

      Furthermore, there is benefit from documenting the MRI findings for large numbers of patients with “simple” chronic back pain, as well as providing initial information for those patients in case their problems change in the future.

      Of course; MRI is not irradiation.

    • Klaxxon says:

      01:30pm | 08/12/11

      So am I Anthony….and it’s worth reminding people that the single biggest predictor of lower back pain resolution is their answer to a simple question: “Do you think you will get better”. Back pain is notoriously hard to treat, and in my experience (as well as that of researchers), those who want to and expect to get better, do. Those that don’t (ie. those that live the ‘sick patient’ role) don’t. Compensation has a bit to do with this too. I think suggestion is behind chiropractors alleged ability to treat this condition. Interesting eh?

    • Anthony says:

      01:31pm | 08/12/11

      Write to medicare Tedd or rewrite the guidelines. I think you will find there is no indication to investigate chronic back pain with a MRI. No irradiation but few patients go to MRI without a CT first and all need a visit to a specialist so the whole package costs $1000 just to get nicer looking pics of a worn out back. Hell I am all for it, as it will result in more referrals to me, but doing so is as about as evidenced based as seeing a chiropracter. The question is should the tax payer pay to educate people to become chiropracters when there is no benefit apparent in large clinical trials? You could ask the same question about an Arts degree!

    • marley says:

      02:02pm | 08/12/11

      @Anthony - nah, you misunderstood. We really did have the thing done in Italy - and at our own expense. 

      The point I was trying to make is that there is chronic back pain, and acute back pain, and we’ve had experience of both.  Yes, there’s an issue of a degenerating spine, and for that, medicine doesn’t have many solutions.  But there was at one point a fragmented disc pressing on the spinal cord, causing atrophying of one leg.  And medicine did have the solution to that particular situation:  MRIs and surgery.  So, it depends on the nature of the back problem.

    • Col Sanders says:

      02:42pm | 08/12/11

      Wow where do you practise Anthony so I can make sure I do not accidently come to see you… I think sending someone to a chiropractor because you think chiropractors understand physiology, anatomy and referred pain better than you or have ‘The Touch’ is not much of a recommendation of your abilities as a clinician. Personally I do not believe in muscle testing, miracle cures, popping backs back in (so they can pop back out ) or witchcraft.

    • Phill says:

      03:39pm | 08/12/11

      Anthony said: “The question is should the tax payer pay to educate people to become chiropracters when there is no benefit apparent in large clinical trials? You could ask the same question about an Arts degree!”

      Anthony, are you really a Dr of Medicine? ie an MBBS? I really do not understand how someone with that qualification could argue an equivelancy between someone practicing Chiropractic and charging high fees to heal the sick and injured and someone with an Arts degree.  The stupidity of that argument beggars belief.

    • Anthony says:

      04:12pm | 08/12/11

      @col. Not particularly interested in seeing you either.  I have never sent a patient to a chiropractor as it is not evidenced based,it is upto the patient to source. Yet many patients I see have seen chiropracters, and have been happy with the results. For a condition where medicine offers a band aid and suck it up approach who am I to judge so long as no harm is being done.  I see many pateints where there chiropracter have suggested they see a specialist as something is not purely mechanical. The arrogance you are after in a doctor will only be of benefit to you if you develop certain problems that have been adequately studied.

    • Anthony says:

      04:26pm | 08/12/11

      @phil
      I think you are overstating the importance of a chiropractor. If they provide a quick fix for a problem or 24hours of relief then for some people they are of benefit. Chiropractors do not attact government or pharma funding for research so will never be able to justify their existence to the extent these academic want them to. Letting these people be a part of a university and access to funds to perform good clinical research so shonky practises can be banned will help everyone. Instead these academics are making it near impossible for this to happen. My point was where is the evidence that an arts degree reults in a meaningful return to the tax payer. Your assumption that all chiropracters are useless is pure arrogance.

    • Elizabeth1 says:

      06:15pm | 08/12/11

      I am with you Anthony. Fixed back spasms from 3 compressed disks with a mix of a few visits to a Chiro to straighten and ongoing weights to strengthen and hold spine and disks in place. Total freedom of movement and no pain. Hell I can even lie on my stomach. It’s been 10 years at least now.The only thing I can’t do is stop exercising those muscles.

    • milo of Brizvegas says:

      07:26pm | 08/12/11

      (If these Academics in their Ivory tower have a better solution for my patients than a chiropractor) Guess it depends on the Chiropractor but
      certainly there are good sports phisio around who are good with backs…I know one a lot of the footballers go to. I am not sure what qualifications a Chiropractor or bone-cracker must have these days to hang out a shingle but when they started to X-Ray patients and had to be licensed my wife (who did a lot of the examining) would often come home shaking her head saying this person does not know basic anatomy or this person diagnosed natural curvature as scoliosis.

    • WarBaby says:

      07:11am | 09/12/11

      Anthony, I am 68 and work in health education,  I so agree with you,  Left to allopathic medicine I would be crippled with pain following multiple spinal injuries and living on prescribed narcotics.  Before I had my spinal fusions that prevented me from being paraplegic, my orthopod sent me to a GP who was an acupuncturist and for the first time in two decades I was pain free.  After the recovery I was sent to a chiropractor for treatment for my upper back and neck injuries.  I was later to meet Gary Wohlman who re-educated my foreshortened musculature.  Hence I now live a full life and am back working in my career at an age when most of my friends are pushing up daisies.  I am also a Reiki practitioner and give myself reflexology and find this really works for migraines.  Natural medicine was the only medicine for tens of thousands of years and guess what?  All those magic bullets from big pharma are just cheap chemical compounds of naturally occurring substances found in herbs.  Big pharma cannot patent plants, so it reinvents them and sells the pills back to the public at exhorbitant costs and in many cases these have not undergone the 40,000 years of human testing that plant remedies have (as any indigenous medicine man).  You can keep all your NSAIDS, I take glucosomine, condroitin and flax seed oil for my arthritis which I have had since early childhood.  All these have been scientifically tested by Canadian medical SCIENTISTS and PROVEN to be effective in reducing inflammation.  If the general public knew how much of our tax dollar was wasted on the PBS and over-prescription to people who think pills will fix them, then taxpayers would direct energy to preventative health, rather than fixing what the body would heal naturally if given half a chance.

    • Joan says:

      07:27am | 08/12/11

      What do you call alternative medicine that works?  Placebo.

    • Miss Demeaner says:

      11:13am | 08/12/11

      Luck?

    • acotrel says:

      06:15pm | 08/12/11

      My cousin went to a chiropracter, and had her neck manipulated.  Then went home and had a stroke.  Does that mean anything ?  Sounds like getting struck by lightning ?

    • Mayday says:

      07:34am | 08/12/11

      Perhaps the Climate Change debate has put a cloud over science in general.

      I actually thought when looking at the headline and photo you meant religion, not complimentary medicine. LOL!!

    • Kay Spencer says:

      07:59am | 08/12/11

      “Complimentary medicine”?

      I guess you mean
      “Gee, aren’t you looking well!”

      Giggle.

    • Sarah says:

      09:16am | 08/12/11

      @Mayday

      Actually I was just thinking the same thing. I’m not a believer in the whole Climate Change mess - just like I’m not a believer of ‘alternative’ therapies actually doing anything useful for me.

      I’m highly cynical nowadays of scientists and a good chunk of the wider scientific community - purely as a result of the Climate Change mess.

      I believe, in my opinion - that science sold out on the Climate Change mess and therefore, what else have they sold out on? Ethics be damned when it comes to science nowadays.

      Mind you - I will only visit a proper Doctor for any health care needs, I refuse point blank to go to a naturopath, homeopath (anything ending in path basically) chiropractor, iridologist, blah blah blah. They get their ‘degrees’ out of their cornflake box. I want to look after my body - not put it in the hands of some whack-job who thinks cracking my spine will cure a freaking cold or handing me a bunch of pennyroyal and mugwort tablets to cure my ‘wind cold evils’. Pfffttttt.

      We most certainly need some serious regulation in the alternative therapy and alternative medicinal industries. Particularly in the vitamin field. SO many people get suckered in to thinking taking daily vitamins is actually going to do anything for them. Idiots.

    • Horns Up says:

      09:53am | 08/12/11

      http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/chilling-news-for-climate-sceptics-20111027-1mm5d.html

      “Richard Muller, a respected physicist at the University of California, Berkeley, used to dismiss alarming climate research as “polluted by political and activist frenzy’’. Frustrated at what he considered shoddy science, Muller launched his own comprehensive study to set the record straight. Instead, the record set him straight.

      “Global warming is real,” he wrote last week in The Wall Street Journal.”

      \m/

    • Blind Freddy says:

      11:55am | 08/12/11

      @Sarah
      “I believe, in my opinion - that science sold out on the Climate Change mess and therefore, what else have they sold out on?”

      So all of science has sold out? All scientists are on the take? Are all of the scientists that are researching the climate so stupid that they can’t see the evidence before them - but instead are under the thrawl of some emails and the scientist that wrote them?

      What about the vested interests arguing the other way- they are sell outs by definition - do you doubt their motives?

    • skepdad says:

      11:58am | 08/12/11

      @ Horns Up:

      I’m not sure why a confirmation of global warming would be “chilling” for scientific skeptics.  Evidence and properly conducted research is always welcome.

      Secondly, the key comment is towards the bottom of that article:

      “It is true that Muller did not try to ascertain “how much of the warming is due to humans”. Still, the Berkeley group’s work should help lead all but the dimmest policymakers to the overwhelmingly probable answer.”

      This says a lot. The fact that the Earth is warming is only one part of the climate change debate.  Very few skeptics actually doubt that.  It is well supported by empirical evidence.

      One of the key areas of contention is whether the warming is anthropogenic.  As the article states, determining that was not the aim nor the result of the study.  The intellectual leap and casual disregard for causation taken by the journalist is typical of the sort of hysterical blather that irritates all scientific thinkers, whatever side of the climate debate they fall on.  It is lazy, dogmatic thinking.

      Even if is was or is established that the warming is anthropogenic, it still does not answer the other questions: can we reverse it without shutting down civilisation? What are the best and most globally responsible ways to achieve a slowing or reversal?  Will they work?  Will they have unforseen consequences that are worse than warming? Are the projected consequences bad enough to warrant a shutdown of modern society? Are we talking a reduction in the value of seaside property, or Mad Max II?  Why is one of our key allies in the war against greenhouse gases - nuclear energy - still unwelcome?

      These questions are not answered, and climate evangelists habitually make the leap from “the Earth is categorically warming” to “we must do this thing I thought of” without doing their due diligence, while fallaciously attributing the term “denier” to those who don’t leap with them.

    • Horns Up says:

      01:40pm | 08/12/11

      “I’m not sure why a confirmation of global warming would be “chilling” for scientific skeptics.”

      Because most climate change sceptics are right wing conservatives who aren’t basing their rejection of climate change on science but on their personal political agenda.

      Climate change is real and it has nothing to do with your politics.

      “The fact that the Earth is warming is only one part of the climate change debate.  Very few skeptics actually doubt that.”

      Not true. Much of the conservative mantra has been “it’s not happening”, eyes closed, fingers firmly in ears whilst calling those that accept the science “warmists” which is every bit as bad as the label “denier”.

      My point is that climate change is real and that important questions, some of which you possed yourself, are not being addressed or are being lost whilst people with political positions are mudding the waters saying it’s not happening when the science regardless of your political position say it is.

      \m/

    • Mayday says:

      02:14pm | 08/12/11

      Climate changes by definition…...the oxymoron is well served.

    • Joan says:

      07:40am | 08/12/11

      What gets me is that patients of alternative therapies more than willing to part with hundreds of dollars on alternative practitioner fees and multivitamin herbal conctions,  whinge and whine they can’t find a bulk bill doctor or whine they are paying too much for medicare prescription. The more obscure , `exotic` the alternative treamentment the more willing they are to part with greater dollars. If Dr asks for up front $50. charge patients rage yet same patient quite happy to hand over $150.00 to a naturopath and spend $300 per month on vitamin and herbal pills.

    • Mark G says:

      08:26am | 08/12/11

      Joan,

      Yes but as the article says. Doctors don’t provide enough entertainment value in their surgeries. Maybe when doctors write out prescriptions they could do a little jig or run around the room a couple of times chanting in some made up language. They also need to stop telling people that the best thing they can do is just go home and sleep it off. For god sake we want entertainment and fancy pills not logic and science. Then people would be willing to pay. wink

    • iansand says:

      08:44am | 08/12/11

      Voltaire - Medicine is the art of entertaining the patient while nature takes its course.

      Fortunately we have progressed a little since Voltaire’s time, but the quote still applies to complementary therapies.

    • Kika says:

      11:34am | 08/12/11

      @Joan - Because these idiots think they are smarter than everyone else, and that nobody else has ever thought of natural medicine ever before so they think they are doing something amazing for themselves. Same sort who insist on buying organic like it’s the solution for all of life’s problems.

    • Against the Man says:

      01:32pm | 08/12/11

      Look at what really ended up killing Steve Jobs.

    • G says:

      08:09am | 08/12/11

      Lack of evidence based therapies, high cost, no consistent training program on a national level and when there is a big boo boo they turf the patient to their GP or the ED. Alternative practitioners, nurse practitioners all haven’t done the hard work, all want the $, all want to be called Doctor so they seem to have some worth and all don’t want to take responsibility for their actions. I love the way things are going, when Australians are stuck with a whole bunch of quacks running the show because they haven’t invested in training real doctors or real doctors have gone overseas where they are appreciated and well paid (yes, your Australian GP/specialist is getting a fraction of what his peers make in the US, most parts of Asia and Europe) that will be the turning point. Strange how bad health and death seem to make people more aware of their situation, funny that.

    • chuzoo says:

      09:23am | 08/12/11

      G, you obviously have no knowledge of the training processes that many alternative medecine students go through. My daughter has just completed a 4 year course in Accupuncture and has her BSc. The amount of research she has done is incredible as each paper she has submitted has to be referenced to scientific facts by the medical profession as well as accupuncture professors and outline her reasoning in treatment of whatever problem is being discussed….there were even ex medical practitioners in her class. It is very expensive to receive proper training in recognized colleges. I myself have completed a 3 year course in Remedial Myotherapy and have been in business for 25 years and have treated successfully many clients, sometimes succeeding where MD’s have not helped, although I quite often work with the MD/ physio/chiropractor to provide a balanced treatment. I am also a qualified yoga teacher (30 years) and have taught 1000’s of classes and seen the benefits to many health problems, some quite serious. I agree that there are some ‘alternatives’ which are a bit suss, but there are also more than a few MD’s who I wouldn’t let anywhere near a sick budgie let alone a human being. Have you ever investigated the negative results of some commonly prescribed pharmaceuticals, cortisone for one springs to mind? Thalidomide was supposed to be a wonder drug….hmmmmm. Yes, the government is right to support alternative medecines and give us the choice over our treatment of any problems with our health. I also agree that many MDs are underpaid but these are the very few I have come across who actually care about their client and don’t spend that precious 5 minute interview fingering the Medicare form.

    • Miss Demeaner says:

      09:44am | 08/12/11

      hahahaha - She has her BS hahahahahahaha

    • Mr Smith says:

      09:51am | 08/12/11

      My mother in law was sick a few months ago we were in Canberra and went to one of the nurse led clinics where we were told she had the flu and to rest, drink fluids etc. A few days later on the way to Wagga she was still unwell so popped in to the local GP, he diagnosed her with meningitis in 5 minutes and I have to say she had the same symptoms as before, gave her a shot of antibiotics and got her to Wagga base hospital quick smart. It was touch and go but this 80 yr old could have gone down hill quickly. I know doctors make mistakes too and are not perfect but in my ongoing complaint to the HCCC, I’m finding out that the problems with nurse led clinics are the rule and not the exception.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:32pm | 08/12/11

      @ chuzoo:

      “I agree that there are some ‘alternatives’ which are a bit suss, but there are also more than a few MD’s who I wouldn’t let anywhere near a sick budgie let alone a human being.”

      This was a persistent theme in your article.  You basically try and suggest that because a *minority* of MDs do not perform according to the accepted and very high standard of science required of them, that this somehow excuses the *majority* of alternative medicine which is built on bullshit.

      That is what we call intellectually dishonest debating.  By pointing out that both medicine and alternative medicine have dodgy practitioners, you suggest the branches of science involved are equal.  They aren’t, mostly because medicine is a science and alternative medicine is not.

      ” myself have completed a 3 year course in Remedial Myotherapy and have been in business for 25 years and have treated successfully many clients, sometimes succeeding where MD’s have not helped…”

      Placebo.  Anything more would be reproducible.  If you did actual science you’d know the importance of a reproducible result and the danger of accepting subjective, anecdotal results as indicative of cause and effect.

      “...although I quite often work with the MD/ physio/chiropractor to provide a balanced treatment”

      That would be because acupuncture is not medicine.  At best it is complementary therapy.  If it works as a placebo effect, great, but don’t think of yourself as offering anything other than sugar pills in a slightly different and more expensive form.

      “My daughter has just completed a 4 year course in Accupuncture and has her BSc.”

      Big deal.  Your bog-standard GP, who’s not a specialist in any way, has done at least 6 years and has a MBBS, which I’m guessing your daughter couldn’t qualify for because she wasn’t smart enough.  Real specialists in the medical profession take the better part of 10 years honing their skills before they can start holding themselves out as particularly qualified in a given branch of medicine.

      And for someone who’s watched her daughter do the course for 4 years, I find it amazing you’re still misspelling “acupuncture”.

    • Against the Man says:

      01:40pm | 08/12/11

      Mr Smith, you want to prevent this crap you need a change of government, the ALP will always serve the nursing unions at the expense of public health and taxpayer dollars. I’ve brought this up before but the ALPers don’t like this fact highlighted, also find out if Roxon or Gillard or Rudd ever saw a nurse prac or took their family member to one. And if these sub-standards nuts want to be called doctor than they better have a doctorate to show for it and not one they bought over the internet! With Labor the sub-standard becomes the standard smile

    • James In Footscray says:

      08:11am | 08/12/11

      Yay! An article on the scientific method that doesn’t mention global warming!

    • HappyCynic says:

      08:51am | 08/12/11

      Just look at the first comment and lose all hope… truly stupidity is infinite

    • stephen says:

      09:18am | 08/12/11

      The ‘Scientific method ‘?
      The aggregate of statistical compensations is what scientists call ‘evidence’.
      (Another word for Determinism.)
      Bad move.
      They’d better move on : everyone’s now fearful of personality types - Greed.
      And it is personality in this millenium which will take the cake.

    • wayne says:

      08:42am | 08/12/11

      After major back injuries, I got to the point of having 3 scripts that cost about $80 a month - one for pain, an anti-inflammatory, and anti-nausea to deal with the anti-inflammatory pills!! Despite x-rays, MRI, etc, the prognosis is that the pain can’t be cured, we can only minimise it through drugs. 

      I went to a chiropractor for 12 months and got much better movement, but no real decrease in pain.

      I now have a mix of osteopath, acupuncture, massage, meditation, the occasional wine, and I have less pain than I did with the pills.  Still some bad days, but it is a condition that needs managing.

      I still play squash, go rockclimbing, drumming, gardening, bike riding, etc, it’s all possible, you just need to know your limits and manage your injury.

      Western medicine has failed, so I do the best I can with what I have available.  If some doctor could find the cause of the pain and make it go away, I would be there in a heartbeat.  Since that won’t happen, I will just continue with what works.

    • Miss Demeaner says:

      09:39am | 08/12/11

      I have chronic neck and shoulder pain from whiplash and have scar tissue in my neck where the nerves go through lessing ability for movement. went to one Physio and he gave me acupunture (is that how you spell it?) and massaged it and an hour later I was in absolute agony, went to another Physio up on the central coast, he looked at how I was sitting, asked me what I do for a living, told me massaging the area was useless as he explain what my problem was, strapped up my shoulder like I was a rugby player and 10 mins later I felt a huge improvement, I still have pain every now and then but not like I used to, my physio explained that I would just have to put up with the tightness as the muscles were tight to protect the nerves in my neck and unless I wanted to get an MRI and have surgery to remove the scar tissue.

      Maybe you should have got a second opinion or gone to a physio if it hadn’t improved in a week. western medicine hasn’t failed. you just have to look for one who knows what he’s doing

    • Peter says:

      10:43am | 08/12/11

      Sorry, Wayne, I don’t understand your point.  Nobody, apparently, can “cure” your back pain but despite this you are happy in spending what must be thousands of dollars a year to quacks who help you “manage” your injury?  Why not just do this yourself.  I bet you 10 to 1 the simple acts of exercising and manipulating your back is what is making you feel better.  Forget the quacks and save your money for the back operation you will eventually have to get when your in your 70’s.

    • Markus says:

      11:09am | 08/12/11

      wayne’s story is fairly typical of those who claim that Western medicine is useless. The scenario seems to always pan out like this:

      - Western medicine could not make a debilitating problem magically disappear for someone while they continued their current lifestyle
      - After giving up hope, resorts to alternative medicine
      - Continues alternative therapy while making drastic physical and/or dietary changes to their life
      - Sees marked improvement, comes to the conclusion Western medicine is bunk, and alternative medicine is being oppressed in some sort of big pharmaceutical conspiracy.

      Ever stop to think that the improvements had little to nothing to do with the alternative medicine, and were instead due primarily to the drastic changes to your physical and dietary wellbeing?

      It is just like all the weight-loss fads that promise magical results, in conjunction with a balanced diet and regular exercise.

    • Steven says:

      04:03pm | 08/12/11

      @Markus You might find that the ‘lifestyle’ changes were probably from advice put forward by these so-called quacks. Instead of visiting a doctor for five minutes and recieving prescriptions and no other hope, this patient has recieved time and attention in order to get to the main issues of his pain, re: his lifestyle choices. Why is every issue so bi-polared in this site. Imagine if western medicines and ‘alternatives’ could both provide benefit.. oh no, then we couldn’t big note ourselves on a website calling out other peoples views and experiences as junk and uncreditable…ffs

    • Steven says:

      04:04pm | 08/12/11

      @Markus You might find that the ‘lifestyle’ changes were probably from advice put forward by these so-called quacks. Instead of visiting a doctor for five minutes and recieving prescriptions and no other hope, this patient has recieved time and attention in order to get to the main issues of his pain, re: his lifestyle choices. Why is every issue so bi-polared in this site. Imagine if western medicines and ‘alternatives’ could both provide benefit.. oh no, then we couldn’t big note ourselves on a website calling out other peoples views and experiences as junk and uncreditable…ffs

    • Steven says:

      04:04pm | 08/12/11

      @Markus You might find that the ‘lifestyle’ changes were probably from advice put forward by these so-called quacks. Instead of visiting a doctor for five minutes and recieving prescriptions and no other hope, this patient has recieved time and attention in order to get to the main issues of his pain, re: his lifestyle choices. Why is every issue so bi-polared in this site. Imagine if western medicines and ‘alternatives’ could both provide benefit.. oh no, then we couldn’t big note ourselves on a website calling out other peoples views and experiences as junk and uncreditable…ffs

    • Markus says:

      04:41pm | 08/12/11

      @Steven, that’s all well and good. Nobody is denying that in some cases there has been success.
      But it isn’t medicine, any more than the assistance a personal trainer provides at a gym or the investment advice from a financial planner that assists in easing stress is medicine.

    • andre says:

      08:43am | 08/12/11

      Rob
      Creationists do not deny ” the real and demonstrable discoveries of science”. Creationist expose the stupidity of Darwinian “science” , moslty based on hoaxes like Nebraska Man or Piltdown Man, that were prepared to prove the “science” of Darwinism.
      Science of evolutionism , does not have any demonstrable scientific discoveries just story telliing pushed as science.
      Because evolutionism, material or spiritual ,is a base of today’s thought, the supersitions that spring from it take place of the real science in our society and less and less thinking students are interested in learning the Darwinian supertsition.

    • iansand says:

      09:18am | 08/12/11

      Creationists did not debunk Nebraska Man and Piltdown Man.  Scientists did.

    • marley says:

      09:24am | 08/12/11

      If you think the theory of evolution has no demonstrable scientific discoveries to back it up, you don’t understand the theory and you’ve never seen a fossil. 

      As for Piltdown Man, it was discovered in 1912.  While it wasn’t fully identified as a hoax for 40 years, the first scientific paper questioning its authenticity was published in 1913.  It was never fully accepted.  Neither was Nebraska Man.  So neither is evidence that the science failed.

    • andre says:

      10:07am | 08/12/11

      @marley : you have been brainwashed mate. Fossil record actually disproves theory of evolution as the missing links linking bacteria and you are still missing. Fossil proves only that the creature died. You can not even conclude if it had an offspring.

    • marley says:

      11:11am | 08/12/11

      @andre - actually, you’ve been misled.  There are fossil bacteria.

    • TheRaptured says:

      11:29am | 08/12/11

      Marley, you obviously have had your daily fix of flouridated water and home and away!

    • KH says:

      11:34am | 08/12/11

      Oh sure.  And earth is only 5000 years old.  For some reason, it was ‘created’ with dinosaur bones and stuff buried - although I suppose you would argue that is because they couldn’t fit on the ‘giant boat’.  Seriously, how gullible can you get?

    • cayal says:

      11:59am | 08/12/11

      It’s funny that both chilren and adults both believe in invisible friends.

    • Chris L says:

      05:20pm | 08/12/11

      Way to add to a discussion Raptured. Marley offers verifyable facts and you counter with untested insinuations about flouride and soap opera. I think Marley’s side is winning this debate, mainly because the only evidence offered from your side were two hoaxes that were revealed by the scientific method (which adds great credibility to science, don’t you think?).

    • LJ Dots says:

      06:27pm | 08/12/11

      andre, you’re baiting the hook with your personal conviction that evolution tries to explain the origin of life. It does not, nor does it attempt to, (and most people can see this) but it is certainly convincing in explaining variation amongst the species.

    • andre says:

      09:11am | 09/12/11

      @Kika

      funny how atheist s, when someone points out the stupidity of the idea of evolution , start attack Jesus. Nobody attacks Budda or Mohammed or Krishna or similar but only Jestus. why is that ? smile

    • andre says:

      10:58am | 09/12/11

      Introduction: “Stellar evolution is based on the concept that
      nothing can explode and produce all the stars and worlds. Life evolution
      is founded on the twin theories of spontaneous generation
      and Lamarckism (the inheritance of acquired characteristics);—yet,
      although they remain the basis of biological evolution, both were
      debunked by scientists over a century ago.”

      “Science vs Evoution”

    • marley says:

      11:49am | 09/12/11

      @andre - Lamarckism most certainly is not at the core of the theory of evolution.  The former suggests that characteristics acquired during a lifetime can be passed on to your offspring.  Sort of along the idea that, if your dad broke his nose when he was a kid, you’ll be born with a crooked nose.

      The theory suggests that, if you have a genetic feature which enables you to compete better, you will have more offspring and therefore your genetic trait will be passed on to the next generation.  Along the lines of, if you are smarter than others, you’ll get more food, get more women, have more kids, and pass on your genes for IQ to your kids.

    • Al says:

      08:45am | 08/12/11

      Hey, I have a ‘new’ alternative therapy.
      Everyone who gets well consumes water in some form, therfore water must be curing them.
      Makes as much sense as most alternative medicine.
      Herbal medicine (that is active ingredients that have been proven to work derived from herbal sources is fine, but others that rely on the ‘plant energy’ or similar claims have never provided more than a placebo effect).
      I just wish I could get Health Insurance that I could opt out of this crap and pay less than my current premium.
      At the moment I can choose to have it removed, however the cost of my premium would go UP. Now THAT pisses me off.

    • Ryan says:

      10:56am | 08/12/11

      but Al, everyone who gets sick has also consumed water, maybe it’s the cause???

    • Markus says:

      11:13am | 08/12/11

      Here’s to alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life’s problems.

      *Cheers*

    • Al says:

      11:21am | 08/12/11

      Ryan,
      Yes, but ‘alternative medicine’ proponents NEVER go into all the people that their treatment does nothing for, they only ever mention the (perceived) success stories. That was my point.

    • Rick of the Dustbowl says:

      08:51am | 08/12/11

      The most superstitious period since the middle ages?............you lost me right there.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:48pm | 08/12/11

      Well, in numeric terms, the Catholic Church has more believers now than it did in the Middle Ages, so you’d have to regard that as pretty persuasive proof in support of the argument.

    • Rick of the Dustbowl says:

      01:58pm | 08/12/11

      St. micheal there are now 7 billion people on earth as apposed to the population in the middle ages of less than 100 million. You cant be serious to suggest that people now are more superstitious than they were back when they believed in a flat earth and that the earth was the centre of the universe ect.

    • St. Michael says:

      03:10pm | 08/12/11

      Clearly I failed to use the tongue-in-cheek smiley again.

    • A Different Rosie says:

      08:54am | 08/12/11

      Many years ago when my GP told me that the pain in my lower back could not be cured I went to a Chiropractor who was able to fix it permanently.  When i became deaf that same man assured me that he could restore my hearing.  I had a good deal of faith in him but after a year of treatment I’m still deaf. 

      Doesn’t take a great brain to see why the first worked and the second didn’t.

    • James says:

      09:51am | 08/12/11

      There lies the problem. We’re taught in psychology to only practice within ones competency and to be aware of when one is stepping out into fields that we are not trained in and to act accordingly (eg seek supervision or refer on).

      It seems to me that some of these chiropractors are falling into this trap. They can fix some things sure, but that does not mean they can fix everything.

      A good medical practitioner knows when he/she cannot help and needs to refer on someone who can. To do otherwise, is a waste of the patients time and money, and at worse, extremely dangerous.

    • Mark G says:

      08:55am | 08/12/11

      With regard to universities accepting these fields for study, I would argue that the problem is bigger than just the acceptance of alternative medicine. The problem is the dilution of academic pursuits in the quest to make higher education available to everyone. The desire to give everyone a degree in something. In the past few decades, the value of a degree has gradually be watered down by competency based training and the acceptance of fields of study that are not in any way academic pursuits. Let me give you some examples. Bachelor of modern dance, Bachelor of computer gaming and so on. Britain has one of the biggest problems with degrees like science fiction, belly dancing, golf studies and even David Beckham studies (yes thats true, look it up). They even gave kylie an honorary doctorate in medicine because she did nothing more than fundraise for cancer. Luckily Australia has not gone that far yet but we are on the way. When you are accepting crap like that then why not accept alternative therapies into the uni course list? Like I said the problem is bigger than just the alternative therapies.

      If you can successfully put together enough facts to learn and competencies to meet (they don’t have to be accurate facts or knowledge) then you can start a degree these days. Universities used to be a place where learning was facilitated and knowledge was acquired through research and pursuit of facts. The academic skill was in the learning not the facts you learned. Apparently that is too elitist though. You need to pander to a lower common denominator.  Therefore degrees have become “here learn these facts and we will give you a piece of paper to say you know it.” Even many post-grad and research degrees are going that way now. Undergrad degrees are the new diplomas, masters are the new undergrad degrees and doctorates are the new master. At this rate you will be able to call yourself doctor if you can recite all David Beckham’s football stats of the top of your head.

    • MarkS says:

      08:58am | 08/12/11

      No it is not the dawning of the new Age of Superstition. Quacks have always been here, indeed it was not that long ago that all medicine was quacks, leeches anybody.

      All that has happened is that the continuing overt commercialisation of most human activity has lead to quack remedies becoming part of the commercial world. As you say, the uni’s teach it because it pays. 

      I have no doubt that in fact less people believe in quacks then was once the case. The quacks are just better organised & take credit cards. They had to become better organised to survive as real medicine become better at its job.

      So don’t worry. There will always be some ducks around going quack, quack, but there is no new Age of Superstition.

    • Huey says:

      09:00am | 08/12/11

      Goodonya Rob! clear concise and cutting..unlike alternative therapies.

    • Winston Smith says:

      09:13am | 08/12/11

      About the right to call oneself Dr., the word doctor is from the latin docere which means to teach.  In the 14th century, when learning was institutionalised with the first universities the title of Dr. was conferred by one’s peers to those who had achieved a doctoratus, or licence to teach.  Those who studied anatomy and physiology needed to be granted this degree to call themselves Dr. in the same way as doctors of philosophy, law, science.  But when physicians left universities and took over from nuns and monks as caregivers and healers in hospitals, they no longer needed to achieve a doctorate, but kept the title Dr. probably out of pomposity, or something similar.  Now a physician only needs a bachelor degree in most countries.  In the UK, Australia and NZ, there are still those who adhere to tradition.  Surgeons use the title Mr, or Ms until they achieve a doctorate even though they undertake the same university study as a physician.

      I contend that it was physicians who began the degredation of the reverence of the title of Dr. It should be a reflection of work one puts in, and the title should signify its intended meaning.  I do not wish to degrade the intelligence of those who study and practice medicine, but in fact, the amount of work needed to achieve the title in any other discipline is almost double that of medicine.

      I am a traditionalist.  Go back to giving titles of Dr. to those who achieve a doctorate.  And Universities need to police it more thoroughly so that bullshit pseudoscience does not degrade the title further. (I understand that words change meaning over centuries, and the word Doctor to describe a physician will be with us forever, this is just my diatribe against the frivolous use of the title.)

    • marley says:

      10:02am | 08/12/11

      Not so sure I agree with this.  Where I come from, physicians and surgeons both have MD degrees, the achievement of which requires 6 to 8 years of tertiary education.  That’s in line with a Ph.D.  Then there’s a minimum two years of post-graduate residency training, up to five years for some of the specialties.  So, to my mind, the good old family GP is every bit as entitled to be called “Doctor” as someone who’s just finished a thesis on television sitcoms of the 1950s.

    • Winston Smith says:

      10:46am | 08/12/11

      @ Marley.  Aggree with it or not, this is the entymological origin of the term “Doctor.”  I am well aware that in North America Physicians are awarded with an MD or “Doctor of Medicine” but in most Commonwealth countries and in some parts of Europe, they are not.  If you read what I wrote, I am writing about the traditional use of the term, and what has become its frivolous use.  I am not arguing that physicians dont work and study hard, I am bemoaning the fact that the reverence of the title was demeaned in the first place.

    • St. Michael says:

      01:05pm | 08/12/11

      Shakespeare, I think, had a one-liner in answer to your complaint, Winston.

      I mean, come on.  For example, surgeons in Australia don’t even use the title “Doctor” for themselves at all.  They traditionally are addressed (at least by other doctors) by “Mr.”

      The etymology of that title is said to come from the fact that when surgery was in its infancy, medical doctors didn’t have a lot of experience with basic anatomy, so if they had to operate they’d traditionally call in a butcher to assist them, who did know a bit about the various dangly bits under the skin.  Since a butcher had no medical degree, he was not afforded the title of “Dr.” and could not be addressed as such.  But over time surgeons with medical degrees have taken that title, in memory of the butchers’ service.

    • Kassandra says:

      01:26pm | 08/12/11

      @ Winston Smith:

      Academic degrees date from European universities of the 13th century. Originally “scholar”, bachelor” and “masters” (later becoming doctor or professor) were equivalent, and referred to learned academics in canon law, civil law and medicine being a recognition of their teaching role rather than an academic degree. This is the historical origin of the three “senior” doctorates in law, medicine and theology as opposed to the later “junior” doctoral degree in philosophy which replaced its previous title of master of arts in the 14th century. If you want to be really “traditional” about it, the title “doctor” should probably be restricted to doctors, lawyers and the clergy. It’s a silly argument.

      The professional use of the title “doctor” by physicians dates from the 14th century. This may in part reflect the nature of teaching in clinical medicine which takes place at the bedside rather than in the lecture hall. The use of the title “Mr” rather than “Dr” by surgeons in the UK and NZ in particular is a reference to their origins in barber surgeons who were not medically trained physicians.

    • Ben says:

      02:58pm | 08/12/11

      @marley says: 10:02am | 08/12/11

      MD (in north america, Canaga) = MBBS in Australia, UK, NZ.

      North American MD is not a doctorate. The contents are taught at an undergraduate level and no research thesis is required.  A doctorate (e.g. MD as awarded in Australia, UK, NZ after an MBBS) or a PhD is a research degree and it requires a Thesis.

    • marley says:

      03:25pm | 08/12/11

      @Ben - I’m aware that the North American MD is considered an undergrad degree.  The fact remains, since most med students there already have one degree, and then go on to three or four years of medical school, then to residencies, you can’t really argue that they are less educated than your PhD.  Less specialized, possibly, but not less educated.

      And I might add, in countries like Italy, the first degree gives you the title dottore, no matter what the subject.

      So, no, I don’t have a problem calling a physician a “doctor.”

    • Cindy says:

      05:41pm | 08/12/11

      I am happy for medical practitioners to use the honorary title of “doctor”, because it both designates their role (as an educated healer) and recognizes the commitment to lifelong learning and scientific endeavor.
      What really grinds my gears is Osteopaths and Chiropractors bestowing the title of “Doctor” on each other as a type of back-slapping gesture without any commitment to scientific study or training in critical reasoning.
      I am about 12months off submitting my PhD in Law, which will conclude 11 years of full-time University education - LLB(Hons), BSc (Hons) 6 years, then LLM 2 years, and (almost) PhD) 3 years.  I have worked hard for the title of ‘Dr’ and hate that it has been devalued and cheapened by snake-oil merchants.

    • Gerard Hosier says:

      09:15am | 08/12/11

      The pathetic attempt at teaching science in schools has a lot to answer for. We are now reaping the rewards of poor science education policy.

    • NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

      09:15am | 08/12/11

      Hi Rob,

      I do appreciate all the information you have provided, really.  But I beg to disagree with you when you say that people are turning to alternative therapy for no good reason, at all.  Firstly, I am not into all that myself, however it has been proven that patients with terminal illness do recover more quickly if they practice meditation & also have a strong faith in the fact that they will get better, eventually.

      Why do not we face it that the general population are just fed with over prescription of certain medications by their medical practitioners as well.  There is this trend that if we take certain medications like antidepressants, vitamins & others we really will live longer & happier lives.  It is a total myth, my great grand mother, who lived to be 105, never took anything in her life other than good old aspirin.  She was the healthiest person I have ever known. 

      Somehow, our lives are much more competitive & stressful, but we all know that most of the time, it is mind over matter.  Of course, we all know about the placebo effect, but there is something much more powerful than all that. 
      Which happens to be total relaxation, meditation, feeling happy & laughter!

      The rest is not that important, also it is not so much the lack of scientists.  But to become a doctor in Australia takes roughly 5-6 years, compared 8-10 years in other countries. If we are only walking into our doctor’s surgery for a pocketful of prescriptions, each & every time, it could be that we have all become far too dependent on certain medications!! 

      Rather than having a balanced life style & meals, we are all trying to get better with a bottle of prescription medicine.  Of course medical intervention, is very necessary part of our lives. But lets face it, our doctors should be able to do much more than printing prescriptions. Best regards to your editors.

    • Kika says:

      11:20am | 08/12/11

      “Firstly, I am not into all that myself, however it has been proven that patients with terminal illness do recover more quickly if they practice meditation & also have a strong faith in the fact that they will get better, eventually”

      It’s called the placebo effect. If a patient THINKS they are doing something or taking something which will make them better, good chances are they will get better. The brain is amazing. If you can trick yourself into feeling well, you will feel well.

    • Kika says:

      11:52am | 08/12/11

      Oh, and yeah with meditation… my husband does meditation and is quite good at it thanks to his hindu schooling back home. However… he ends up crankier AFTER doing meditation than before. If that’s his ‘centre’ I would hate to see what he’s like if he isn’t centered.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:40pm | 08/12/11

      Neslihan, given in previous columns you’ve disclosed that you worked in the medical system as a nurse and yet don’t think measles, mumps, or rubella are potentially life-threatening conditions, instead saying that it’s all about good nutrition and exercise, I really recommend you think about withholding your rays of sunshine on this one.

    • Abu The Goat Boy says:

      01:38pm | 08/12/11

      “it has been proven that patients with terminal illness do recover more quickly if they practice meditation & also have a strong faith in the fact that they will get better, eventually.”

      Yeah? Really? I found that sitting in a corner with a pancake on my head cured me of cancer. Oh, I’ll admit that there was surgery and chemo but studies have shown that the pancake method works.

      In what universe? The only research I could find showed quite the opposite.

      C’mon Neli medical science needs that information.
      Throw me a boen here and give me sme links please so I can share this amazing information with my oncologist.

    • NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

      10:01pm | 08/12/11

      Hi there,

      Firstly, for Kika, if the meditation has not worked for your husband, please get in touch with Deepak Chopra, may be he can help!!  I do agree with you when you say that our brain is a very powerful organ.

      However, for the other replies, I just wanted to make a point that we are becoming “a drugged out society & nation” and that is all.  Also please do whatever works for you & makes you happy!! Did you ever try to think pleasant & emphatic thoughts about others first?  It might actually help you understand others much better!! 

      I am not against the Modern Medicine, I am only against the fact that we are relying on these chemical substances more & more!!  For being cranky or angry, there always underlying issues & causes.  You will be the best judge of that.  As we say that “you can become your own doctor & therapist at the same time”!!  Love yourself & others more, be kind to yourself &  other more!!  As we say in Australia the land Down Under, JUST BE HAPPY & DO NOT WORRY MATES.  JUST LIVE IN THE MOMENT!!  Best regards to your editors.

    • subotic says:

      09:34am | 08/12/11

      Science is on the inside…. what religion is on the outside.

      And BOTH have failed us and our earth.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:51pm | 08/12/11

      - Vaccination, homogenisation, identification of germs, the compass, the telescope, the magnet, sailing ships, aircraft, electricity, the railroad, massively increased agricultural yields, etc, etc, etc, etc.

      Also the fact we can, if put to it, blow asteroids out of the sky and thereby prevent a dinosaur-scale mass extinction event.

      Don’t think it’s science that’s failed us.

    • subotic says:

      01:08pm | 08/12/11

      @St. Michael, how about the HeLa cell. Y’know, the immortal cell line…

      Hell, if you really want to call it out, I think we can damn both science and religion for that one.

      Good old Henrietta Lacks. Hit her up on wiki then come back to me.

    • St. Michael says:

      01:42pm | 08/12/11

      ...I went to WIkipedia.  Don’t see anything there that invalidates the cause of science.  What’s your point?

    • subotic says:

      02:04pm | 08/12/11

      Point = science doesn’t ALWAYS get it right, like so many claim. They certainly failed when it came to Mrs Lacks, her family and the community at large.

      Sometimes the scientific community comes across even more dogmatic and single bloody-minded (esp when there’s money, funding and fame involved) than the religious community. 

      Which you have to admit is pretty bloody hard to do….

    • St. Michael says:

      02:54pm | 08/12/11

      Nobody ever says that science always gets it right, subotic.  I will ask you to show me someone in this thread who explicitly says so or withdraw your assertion that they do.  Until you do, you are guilty of straw manning.

      The scientific method itself acknowledges the error factor.  It’s built into the process.  That’s why the method is rigourous and slow.  Science is basically “Come up with a theory.  Test it.  If it doesn’t work, try again.  And if it does, see if you can do it many thousands of times with the same result.  If you find something that seems to contradict what you previously thought, throw out your previous beliefs and start again.”  That’s why even the most reliable predictors of natural phenomenon are only ever called theorems—the theory of relativity, for example.  Or string theory.  They are a working idea until someone shoots a hole in them, at which point they are respectfully discarded and the process starts again.

      But like I said further down the thread: saying “well, science isn’t perfect either” is an invalid response to alternative medicine’s unreproducible results and the placebo effects they draw on.  What, science has to be perfect, without any errors, just because alternative medicine can’t even get over cause and effect for most of its treatments?

      Alternative medicine is justifiably the province of snake oil salesmen because it shares one thing in common with street magic: it calls to our wonder and to our hope and desire that there’s still some magic in the world.  People search for the numinous in their lives, but it’s a very dangerous basis on which to treat yourself or try and assert how the world works.

    • Kika says:

      03:15pm | 08/12/11

      How has science failed us? If it wasn’t for science we wouldn’t have the lives we have. You wouldn’t be able to fly overseas in a jet plane to go eat dogs, we would all be dying off every few years from another black plague, you wouldn’t have a computer to sit here and vent your spleen on, and most likely if you are over the age of 25 you would be dead of an easily preventable and treatable disease.

      Science hasn’t failed us at all. In fact, science is the reason there are 7 billion of us alive today.

    • subotic says:

      03:35pm | 08/12/11

      @Kika, scientists didn’t invent aeroplanes. Or computers. And I’m not sure if unsustainable population growth is something science would like to be creditted for either.

      But they do like to experiment on puppies, that’s for sure. With a nasty virus strain. Electrical shocks. Disembowelment. You name it, science has done it man’s best friend.

      Nice…

    • St. Michael says:

      04:26pm | 08/12/11

      “But they do like to experiment on puppies, that’s for sure. With a nasty virus strain. Electrical shocks. Disembowelment. You name it, science has done it man’s best friend.”

      Post proof that it’s widespread or retract that comment, subotic.  The laboratories I’ve dealt with are without exception scrupulous about the humane treatment of animal test subjects, right down to mice.  Right now you’re characterising the entire scientific discipline as Josef Mengele, and it’s both cowardly and unable to be answered en masse.

      I do hope you’ve got more than one Wikipedia page in answer.

    • subotic says:

      09:23am | 09/12/11

      Hey Mick, I really don’t respond well to threats like that. I’ll make no retractions or post anything as “proof” of anything off a comment with that kinda attitude behind it.

      This is an open conversation. Don’t like what I say? Don’t agree with what I say? Then tell it to someone who cares, and today, that wouldn’t be me. If you ignore me, I won’t go away, but maybe you’ll sleep better at night.

      That entire “holier than thou” crap just doesn’t cut it with me sunshine. There are no absolutes in this discussion, with the possible exception of you being a total tool.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:10pm | 09/12/11

      “This is an open conversation. Don’t like what I say? Don’t agree with what I say? Then tell it to someone who cares, and today, that wouldn’t be me. If you ignore me, I won’t go away, but maybe you’ll sleep better at night.”

      Your problem is that you keep firing shotgun blasts without any ammunition.  I keep calling you on it because it’s irresponsible in the first instance and stupid in the second since what you might wind up doing is defaming someone in public, for which you can get sued.  It is possible to track responses back to IPs, you know.

      But in a more general sense, you keep making reprehensible and highly inaccurate remarks, which is why I’ve started asking you to put up or shut up.

    • subotic says:

      03:10pm | 09/12/11

      Dude, the fact you keep coming back here to this thread just makes me giggle myself silly, and although I have no idea as to why, I guess I should be flattered you’ve taken it upon yourself as some sort of a god-given “personal cause” to try and rehabilitate me from being a typical smartass pot-stirrer with no agenda except to play devil’s advocate, into something of a responsible interwebz citizen.

      Well sport, ummm, good luck with that.

      And of course, if it wasn’t for inane and pointless comments by “internet bullies” like me, how would all the self-righteous, holier-than-thou, socially thoughtful and responsible saviours of the goddamn universe get their jollies each day? Imagine them all having to go to sleep at night without the opportunity of playing Hall Monitor Nazi and not having had the chance to tell someone like me off for not aspiring to be the same as they are?

      It’s a symbiotic relationship Mick. I get a good giggle out of seeing you trying to play online Class Captain while I make Kika’s blood pressure tip the high end of the scale, and you get a keyboard hard-on trying to exert some sort of Alpha Male positive influence over the class clown. Either way, we both get something out it, none of it useful, but it’s worth the giggle for a minute or 2.

      Seriously, I’d buy you a beer and a dirty big Cuban cigar, but I’m guessing you don’t imbibe in anything that mite be just a little bit too much fun and not particularly socially acceptable in our Brave, Sterile, New World.

      Apologies to Huxley.

    • St. Michael says:

      03:57pm | 09/12/11

      You can’t play Devil’s Advocate without, y’know, some actual facts, subotic.

      But it is rather funny watching you try.

    • holden says:

      09:37am | 08/12/11

      A lot of this is caused by laziness. Get around! Ask for separate opinions. Don’t blame it on the Government!
      I had to go to seventeen doctors before I found one who said I could keep drinking. You blokes give up too easy!

    • RED says:

      09:45am | 08/12/11

      Anyone ever watched ‘The Witch Doctor Will See You Now’?
      Fantastic program, if this debate interests you I suggest having a look.

    • Trembre says:

      09:50am | 08/12/11

      I think this phenomenon asks a bigger question - is the current rapid rate of technological change too quick for society to “psychologically” accept?  As in, do the reactions to things like anthropogenic climate change, where people generally accept the (in my opinion, dodgy) premise, and immunization, which people are increasingly and alarmingly sceptical of, demonstrate a “Stop the world, I want to get off” attitude?
      With that in mind, the retreat of otherwise reasonable people to things like alternative medicine in efforts to regain a sense of control of their worlds isn’t something they should be damned for.  People aren’t stupid, they’ve lost faith in modernity and the institutions they are supposed to trust - howsabout we discuss that instead of resorting to intellectual snobbery?

    • Mayday says:

      10:30am | 08/12/11

      Hear, hear you make a very good point.

      I can relate and hope to move away from Sydney as an attempt to “get off” the 24/7 world we now live in.

    • Bob Stewart, the Elder says:

      09:55am | 08/12/11

      I’m feeling quite subla(u)xated in my nether regions reading all this. I thought it was leading up to another of those greenhouse gas stories for Combet;s climate change tax. and at the end of it, yep, next week another freezing day in Cairns, not since 120 years ago has a December day been so cold, just to remind us again that climate changes.

      I wonder what else that science could think up to make money?.

    • Peter says:

      10:46am | 08/12/11

      Weather and Climate:  two different words with two different meanings.  Go learn what they mean and then come back to the party.

      Cheers.

    • Cati says:

      12:32pm | 08/12/11

      @ peter Is funny but is always weather when it rains or not very warm outside but is climate the other way.

    • Tez says:

      09:59am | 08/12/11

      Maybe it’s because 90% of peer reviewed medical papers are proved false within ten years.

      The worse thing a society can do is to start believing that ‘science’ has any significant answers to our most serious questions.

      ‘Science’ is simply a tool used to investigate the physical world around us. If it’s not being taught well in schools, it’s because scientists don’t really have any idea what they’re doing and this results in a very convoluted subject for students.

    • marley says:

      10:13am | 08/12/11

      @Tez -  there is a case to be made that half (not 90%) of peer-reviewed medical papers are wrong.  But that’s the thing about science:  you publish a paper, others take your results and try to replicate them, and if they can’t, your theory fails. Science is about hypothesis, test, re-test, and then rebut or confirm the theory.  It’s not that scientists don’t know what they’re doing;  it’s that they’re explorers and explorers are going to take wrong turns and make mistakes.  That’s the nature of science.  But the rigorous methodology ensures that there will always be those prepared to look at your progress and tear it apart if its wrong.

      As for science not having any significant answers to our questions, well, it explains why not washing your hands between surgeries causes the spread of infections;  it explains why antibiotics can save a pneumonia-patients life’  it explains how to reduce the incidence of infectious disease through vaccination;  it explains how to treat some forms of cancer;  it explains how to reduce hypertension and hence the risk of stroke;  it explains that h.pylori, not stress, causes ulcers and provides an effective treatment.  These may not be serious questions to you, but they are to a lot of us.

      And the scientific methodology isn’t complex at all.  More people should learn to use it.

    • Tez says:

      10:55am | 08/12/11

      Yes, but obviously people are going to look at sources of wisdom other than science when so much of what they do is proved false over and over again. A lot of younger people nowadays put their faith in science but they’re not aware of it’s short comings. They need to know about these things. Like the fact that in social science researchers use the 0.05 level for significance, which by definition means that 1 in 20 of their studies are false before we even get started.

      And another term for the scientific method is common sense, it’s just trying something with slight changes multiple times until it works. It’s nothing new that needs special treatment, science has been happening since before humans developed language, if you have the courage to go there.

    • Ryan says:

      11:04am | 08/12/11

      @tez, references to back your claim please?

    • marley says:

      11:15am | 08/12/11

      @Tez - if you apply the same degree of rigour and scepticism to alternative medicine and to creationism as you do to medicine and the theory of evolution, to cite but two examples, then fine.  But in my experience, believers in alt med etc are only sceptical of science and never of their own beliefs (and I stress beliefs, because there’s dick all in the way of evidence to support them).

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      12:22pm | 08/12/11

      “The worse thing a society can do is to start believing that ‘science’ has any significant answers to our most serious questions.”

      I suspect what you call serious is not actually serious, but rather pertains to all things imaginary and largely irrelevant.

    • Dan Webster says:

      10:09am | 08/12/11

      But Doctors make mistakes and people die.
      My mum’s leg broke for no reason, a simple google search says most likely cancer, doctors (Toowoomba Hospital) said no you don’t have cancer go home and get better. Six weeks later (bed ridden) her lung collapsed and she had to be flown to Brisbane.
      Guess what ? she had a bone cancer in her leg, the cancer had spread into her lungs in those six weeks and she died 10 days later. Then 30 days later my Step dad killed himself over it.

      Doctors are not saints - don’t believe everything they say.
      They are just humans and make mistakes like the rest of us.

      Doctors DON’T KNOW EVERYTHING as they think they do.

    • Mark G says:

      10:28am | 08/12/11

      Dan,

      As much as I accept that this situation is tragic, it did not occur purely because of the actions of doctors. Yes a doctor misdiagnosed it. This is because they are human as you have said. Diagnosis is a real hit and miss art, irrelevant of how attentive and professional a doctor is. Unfortunately the is no such doctors like the TV show house who see a patient with a sniffle and diagnose it as a rare African viral infection that causes the liver to dissolve. But a trained and well educated professional who has studied all the latest medical knowledge is still far more likely to get it right than a person who uses crystals to diagnose bad health auras. Remember diagnosis is different than treatment. The diagnosis hit rate of alternative medicine practioners is actually worst than their treatment success rate (when placebo effect is taken into account). I’ll go with a doctor’s best guess (with a second opinion) anytime.

    • Dan Webster says:

      11:02am | 08/12/11

      MarkG

      I don’t blame the doctors for my mums cancer but I do blame him for missing it (twice). He also basically told her to stop moaning and get over it as it’s just a broken leg!. Then came the second opinion at Stanthorpe Hospital, and “no cancer”......How many years training, How much wage, what a joke.

      Why bag a chiropractor when doctors can be just as “useless”

      I saw how doctors treat nurses as well….......

    • Ryan says:

      11:09am | 08/12/11

      Dan, very sorry for your loss. I would suggest though that by the time she had presented to hospital with a broken leg due to undiagnosed bone cancer, the cancer would already have spread. The misdiagnosis was tragic, but the outcome of even a correct diagnosis would not have been any dfiferent.

    • Kika says:

      11:17am | 08/12/11

      Dan - how awful.  I can only imagine what you felt about that. My husband recently fainted, whacked his head on a concrete floor, had a seizure and was unconscious for half a day. Turns out he had blood on his brain. The doctors were about to send him home when he ate a small sandwich which made him vomit. This prompted them to do the CT scan which discovered the blood on his brain. If he had never eaten that sandwich we may never have known about the blood, and he may have fainted again at home and hurt himself again.

      You are right. Doctors don’t know everything. But they can only do as much as they can with what they have. If they don’t have the resources to spend on scanning, testing and investigating everything on every patient they ever see they will never be able to diagnose everything that’s wrong with someone at any given point in time.

    • Tedd says:

      11:56am | 08/12/11

      Dan W,
      Sorry to hear of those consequences of a mistake that should be rare, and less likely with second and third opinions on the radiographs, as well as suspicion from the clinical history (of fracture for no or little reason)

    • St. Michael says:

      12:46pm | 08/12/11

      Everyone’s already expressed condolences, so I’ll skip that.

      But this, too, indicates a very serious intellectual blind spot: that just because medical science does not know everything somehow means that alternative medicine is any smarter or better.

      It’s a pretty dirty tactic to take in that people expect medicine to be perfect on diagnosis and cure even for conditions we haven’t figured out yet, but you’re prepared to excuse the sheer untested anecdotal quackery that passes for alternative medicine and excuse its failings and errors, which literally can and have killed people.

      It ignores the fact that when you look statistically and over the course of the past 200-odd years of organised medicine, medical science has reproducibly saved millions more lives than all the alternative medical sciences combined.  That in itself is reason to have more confidence in the medical system than the alternate medical psuedoscience.

      Of course doctors are fallible and human.  But alternative medicine practitioners are (a) just as fallible and (b) perpetrate continuing fraud on their patients due to the quackery they spout, which is a hell of a lot worse crime than any doctor who made a misdiagnosis ever did.

    • andrew says:

      10:13am | 08/12/11

      If you start giving the term Doctor to anyone and everyone, we will lose good medical doctors. It should be a respected and earned title. If you can get that title after a 2 year pseudo-science course, it just demeans the whole institution.

    • Against the Man says:

      01:30pm | 08/12/11

      People want to feel good and give credibility to their pseudo-science. Wait till they have to deal with the responsibility and answer the hard questions, you won’t see a group of faster runners and hiders wink

    • Mik says:

      10:14am | 08/12/11

      Patients are unscientific, various studies have found up to a 40% improvement for some medical issues just by giving a patient a placebo.
      Scientific processes and science based professions must always take this into account when dealing with people. The professionals role is also of education, the people he or she” treats”, as always, will then determine whether it suits them to take heed of this. If other delivery systems are getting more attention, then discover why this is so, ie what is “missing”/ not delivered/ too hard/ not understood/ too hard to follow/ doesn’t take into account human “wants”/ not in keeping with current social/place attitudes.

    • Mik says:

      10:14am | 08/12/11

      Patients are unscientific, various studies have found up to a 40% improvement for some medical issues just by giving a patient a placebo.
      Scientific processes and science based professions must always take this into account when dealing with people. The professionals role is also of education, the people he or she” treats”, as always, will then determine whether it suits them to take heed of this. If other delivery systems are getting more attention, then discover why this is so, ie what is “missing”/ not delivered/ too hard/ not understood/ too hard to follow/ doesn’t take into account human “wants”/ not in keeping with current social/place attitudes.

    • thatmosis says:

      10:23am | 08/12/11

      The"new” beliefs centre around technology with the young embracing it as a life line away from reality, somewhat like religion did for their grandparents. Money also rates as a new belief, either the lack of or the accumulation of which is becoming more apparent as more and more people take note of the ever changing finacial degredation in the world and bemoan thier inability to make ends meet but continue to be swayed by sales pitches for those commodities that one could really live without. Another new faith but one that is rapidly becoming extinct is Global Warming but as more and more people realise that they have been duped by complicit scientists, pseudo scientists, extra hits in the back pocket and just plain scammers this is slowly losing its appeal and becoming a lost cause much to the relief of many. Clean and Green used to convey a healthy way of life and was once noted as being a new faith but now conveys a form of government that imposes unrealistic burdens on the people for no reason except to bolster coffers and keep in power. In closing its not because people are losing faith im modern medicine its just that the costs are prohibitive and the availability of a bed is so low that people will try anything for relief, even snake oil salesmen. Our hospital system has failed the people and this is giving rise to charaltans of every ilk and the people are going to them because they are available.

    • owlbrudder says:

      05:56pm | 08/12/11

      Thatmosis: “Another new faith but one that is rapidly becoming extinct is Global Warming”.

      So which faith do you adhere to? The “The World Is Not Warming” faith, the “The World Is Warming But It’s Not Our Fault” faith, or the “The World Is Warming And It Is Our Fault But It Will Be Good For Us” faith. Seems like the deniers all belong to one or the other, but can’t agree amongst themselves which is the right one.

      Meanwhile, the rest of us study the science and come to a conclusion not based on religious fervour, or faith, or belief, but on logic supported by experiment.

    • baal says:

      10:23am | 08/12/11

      The answer is simple.
      Most people do not use rational thought to make decisions. However our education  
      system has deluded many people into thinking they are rational people. This allows half truths to borrow the credibility of real truths becuase people think they are more rational then they really are.
      Until people are taught that humans are for the most part ruled by hormones, fear
      and emotions, not logic will always have issues. That however will probably never happen so meh.

    • chuzoo says:

      10:36am | 08/12/11

      Miss Demeanor….. that is a crap answer to my post…...have you studied for 4 years for anything? I suspect not, however, I can also tell you that not all physios are good same as all MDs if you have found a good one ...good luck!! By the way muscle work on your neck is essential to relieve pain and allow healing…as long as the muscles are tight the neck won’t get much better.  25 years experience working with muscles tells me that, I have worked with entire sports(triathlon) teams as well as the general public…Don’t put down what is obviously beyond your understanding.  Accupuncture has been around for 3000 years, most modern pharmaceuticals are originally derived from plants eg aspirin

    • Miss Demeaner says:

      10:55am | 08/12/11

      Um - wow overreaction much? I wasn’t putting down anything and I didn’t even reply to your post with that, I was laughing at your daughter earning her BS (which is hilarious BTW) I was pointing out to Wayne that rather than stick with one chiropractor for 12 months with no improvement he should have got a second opinion. How was I putting anything down? he told his story and I told mine? I also wasn’t putting down accupuncture just said it made my pain worse and my physio taping up my shoulder with no muscle manipulation dramatically eased my pain when the massage and the accupuncture the week before made it 100 times worse (not an exageration BTW)

      I spent 12 years in school studying, different subjects sure but you didn’t mention that, I have also done 7 tafe courses of 12 months duration so yes I would say I have spent 4+ years studying stuff, what’s your point? just because my area of study was not whatever it is you’re rabbiting on about and I choose to take my professionals word that in MY case massage and needles don’t work what’s it to you?

    • Erick says:

      12:26pm | 08/12/11

      @Miss Demeaner - “I was laughing at your daughter earning her BS”

      Chuzoo said her daughter had a BSc (Bachelor of Science degree), not a “BS”.

      I think you owe her an apology.

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      12:38pm | 08/12/11

      “Accupuncture has been around for 3000 years”

      Well it MUST be true then!  That must also mean dragons are real, god is real, ghosts, ancient spirits and everything else that has persisted through ignorance and self-delusion.  Let’s not forget Nessy, the Sasquatch or leprechauns.

      “most modern pharmaceuticals are originally derived from plants eg aspirin”

      Yes.  And?  The extract components from those plants, they don’t just grind it up, spit on it and pray.  That’s why western medicine works so well.

    • Miss Demeaner says:

      12:46pm | 08/12/11

      yeah Erick - will have to agree to disagree on that one. I found it funny and really that’s all that matters to me, yes I dropped to ‘c’ coz that didn’t work with my joke of BS and as the BS are in caps I feel I can freely drop the insignificant c to amuse myself

    • Kika says:

      01:56pm | 08/12/11

      I agree Tim the Toolman. I can’t understand people thinking “Wow this has been around for so long it must hold the answers and cures to everything!”. Sticking little pins into the skin is nothing more than the placebo effect, again. Your brain is tricked into thinking it’s working on your nervous system therefore I AM getting better. What a load. I think I’m going to go get some leeches to help me with my headaches…

    • chuzoo says:

      10:46am | 08/12/11

      Miss D…BSc….Bachelor of SCIENCE….ignoramus

    • Miss Demeaner says:

      11:01am | 08/12/11

      oh I know what it means, don’t presume I don’t I just thought it was funny as hell, there’s really no need to be insulting over a bit of fun, you’re obviously extremely sensitive to this maybe you should have a becks and lie down?

      anyone else when they see BSc flash to Rimmer in Red Dwarf with his Bronze Swimming Certificatte?

    • Ryan says:

      11:13am | 08/12/11

      .........yes….......but…........in…......... accupuncture…......., now do you get the funny bit?

    • Erick says:

      12:30pm | 08/12/11

      @Miss Demeaner - “oh I know what it means, don’t presume I don’t I just thought it was funny as hell”

      No. You lied. You falsely claimed that chuzoo had said “BS”, when she actually said “BSc”.

      That’s not funny. It’s dishonest.

    • Miss Demeaner says:

      12:49pm | 08/12/11

      again Erick - agree to disagree. Just because I know what a BSc is doesn’t mean I am not allowed to alter and remove letters to make a funny, just because chuz is too super sensitive of a crap degree doesn’t mean I can’t have my fun…......there you go a little bagging for you chuz so you can rightously jump back into the fray, just don’t have a stroke old duck (quack) haha

    • CBR says:

      01:36pm | 08/12/11

      Hey MD, I have a BSc as well, and let me tell you that the ‘c’ is non-negotiable, given “BS” could stand for anything under the sun up, up to and including your poor and poorly-intended joke.

      You can rubbish the quality of a BSc when you have one, and not before.

    • Wickerman says:

      11:23am | 08/12/11

      Agree with the thrust of the article, but the medical/science fraternity are partially to blame. People turn to the pseudo medicine when standard medicine fails.  It fails regularly. I have a bad knee as a result of an injury for 6 years initially went through the whole doctor, x-rays, bone scans, MRI, physios, knee & joint specialists, surgery etc. In the end NO FIX! After spending $$$$$$ at each stage. So I went to the “witch doctors” i.e. acupuncture, still no change. So I put modern medicine in the same boat as alternative medicines – glorified witch doctors who sometimes get it right. Blinkered view I know, but there it is.

      Medicine (real or alternative) - should be legally bound to the following to at least the following rule: No fix - no payment.

    • Kika says:

      11:32am | 08/12/11

      Chronic pain and managing pain is a growing area in science I think. Some injuries just can’t be fixed enough to get the nerves to relax and let go of the pain. My mum is in a similar boat where the pain in her back can’t be treated and all she can do is take pain medicine for her whole life. Obviously it’s not good for her body to be taking so many drugs everyday, but science so far hasn’t found a way to treat pain otherwise yet.

    • Al says:

      12:33pm | 08/12/11

      Wickerman - I could fix your knee pain in about 2 seconds.
      (Note: Side effects would include paralysis below the waist (at least)!)

    • Kika says:

      11:27am | 08/12/11

      I honestly think alternative medicine is nothing more than a giant placebo industry designed to make ‘practitioners’ and people feel like they are doing something completely extraordinary and brand new and that nobody has ever thought of doing something like that before. Because they honestly believe that they are doing something good for themselves, their brain tricks their body into believing it’s well.

      REIKI? If this isn’t the biggest psychosematic placebo sht I’ve ever seen.

      I am sick and tired of people always thinking that ‘eastern’ medicine means it’s better. It’s not! Again with the self suicide and self hate westerners have that they think that our system is so wrong that the ‘east’ have all the answers we’re ever wanted. Yeah, sure. My husband is from the East. His families theories on Ayurveda is just dangerous. His mother suffered from high blood pressure and relied on the weekly visit from her Ayurveda quack to make her feel better. She had stroke after stroke which made her paralysed which eventually killed her. His father believed that it was the hair oil she used which made her have a stroke. My husband honestly believed this to this day until I made him consider how strong that oil must have been to seep into her skull, into her brain to cause some physiological distrubance big enough to cause a stroke!

      And the people against anti-vaccinations. If you don’t want to vaccinate your child, fine. How about you do us all a favour and form your own country somewhere in a pacific atoll and we’ll see how long you all survive, especially your children. Don’t ask us for help when polio, mumps, measles, whooping cough and chicken pox runs rife and your kids start dropping off like flies like they used to in the 17th Century.

    • Peter says:

      11:55am | 08/12/11

      Lol, what I love is the term “Wellness” you see everywhere these days.  It has no real meaning, only a vague feel-good connotation.  As in “We promote Wellness”.  Or terms like “mind/body spirit”.  It’s all just quackery and yet so many, many people are earning very healthy livings catering to our apparent weakness.

      But I put Chiropractors at the top of the list of dangerous quacks.  Sadly, like Mormons, somehow their religion has achieved respectability yet with no accountability for the absolute rubbish it is based upon.  Just have a look at the history of Chiropractics and see it is just something some guy made up with no scientific basis whatsoever for his theory of “subluxation”.  Very intelligent, respectable people have become Chiropractors.  Yet their whole industry is based on a fraud.

    • subotic says:

      12:06pm | 08/12/11

      @Kika, what a 1 sided, blind, narrow minded view you have of anything that falls outside of your utopian, dyed-in-the-wool, whitebread, middle-class, bogan leftie Australia.

      Just because you don’t like or understand something doesn’t make it wrong. Get a grip already.

      Did your parents have any children that lived?

      I bet they regret that.

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      12:41pm | 08/12/11

      “Just because you don’t like or understand something doesn’t make it wrong. Get a grip already.”

      Liking is irrelevant.  Kika is right.  That’s all there is to it and no matter how insulting you are, you will continue to be wrong.  Reality doesn’t bend to your opinions.

    • Markus says:

      01:02pm | 08/12/11

      “Just because you don’t like or understand something doesn’t make it wrong.”
      No, it is the being wrong that makes it wrong…

    • subotic says:

      01:05pm | 08/12/11

      @Tim the Toolman, who determines what is right or wrong for me? You? Kika? The government? Jeebus?

      Regardless of the origin of something, if it works for you, then it works. Placebo or not. And just because it’s not what you want or expected doesn’t make it wrong.

      Except for scientology. That stuff is just crap.

    • St. Michael says:

      01:11pm | 08/12/11

      “Regardless of the origin of something, if it works for you, then it works. Placebo or not. And just because it’s not what you want or expected doesn’t make it wrong.”

      Retreating to solipsism does not make your argument any better, either.  You challenged Kika that because she doesn’t understand how something works, that it’s bad.  You implied that you are in receipt of some higher knowledge which is applicable to more than one person, namely yourself.  You are not, and now you have backed away from that position, too.

    • Peter says:

      01:14pm | 08/12/11

      “...did your parents have any children that lived…”

      You smoked it, subotic.  Kika is actually not living.  She is actually a zombie who taps the keyboard from her grave.

    • subotic says:

      01:58pm | 08/12/11

      Bollocks St. Michael. I don’t suffer from a solipsistic (or egotistical) viewpoint of the world, myself, you or even of Kika.

      She has a view. I disagree. Big deal. This is a conversation buck-o, that’s all. No prizes for dying with the most toys here.

      And rather than coming off as an intelligent reply to try and “put me in my place”, you just sound like a half-a-tard, dude.

    • St. Michael says:

      02:05pm | 08/12/11

      “And rather than coming off as an intelligent reply to try and “put me in my place”, you just sound like a half-a-tard, dude.”

      I don’t have to try and look intelligent next to you, subotic.  Your own posts make me look great by comparison.

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      02:11pm | 08/12/11

      “Tim the Toolman, who determines what is right or wrong for me? You? Kika? The government? Jeebus?”

      Umm, what works and can be repeated.  What else is there?

    • Kika says:

      02:49pm | 08/12/11

      HA - Subotic. You call me out yesterday for writing the most offensive thing you’ve ever seen on the punch - yet you are now saying that my parents wish I was never born. A-mazing. You are a real treat. Remember that thing I told you about making assumptions about people you’ve never met?

      First you say…
      “Just because you don’t like or understand something doesn’t make it wrong. Get a grip already”

      And then…

      “Tim the Toolman, who determines what is right or wrong for me? You? Kika? The government? Jeebus”

      So hang on. You have said that just because I don’t agree with something that I’m a bogan leftie and my parents wish I was never born. And then you turn around and say to those who disagree with YOU that you have a right to determine what’s right.

      So what you are saying is that as long as ‘right’ means what’s right to YOU, then all is well.

      My gosh. You are either a dog eating chiropractor, or a dog eating Reiki ‘practitioner’ - which doesn’t make sense as most are likely to be vegetarian. So what is it?

    • subotic says:

      03:29pm | 08/12/11

      @Kika, I’m having pork sausages for dinner tonite. Thanks for asking.

      And no Kika it’s not all about me, or all about you, or even all about St. Michael. If it works for you, all good. If it doesn’t work for you, but works for somebody else, good for them. If believing in something gets you thru, half your luck. For the rest of us, there’s always over-priced heavily taxed alcohol.

      But I still feel sorry for your folks tho.

      Could be worse. You could have spawned crotch-fruit.

    • JS says:

      11:49am | 08/12/11

      This sounds exactly like Gerry Harvey bleating that people are buying online because theres no GST. No Gerry, people buy online cause your service is CRAP!

      People arent turning away from MD’s cause they’re stupid and ignorant, it’s because “science” keeps changing its mind, no-one can agree and every day there’s some new advice, one day red wines awesome, the next it gives you cancer. one day chocolate is awesome, the next it causes obesity.
      Is it really any wonder we are still left searching for answers?

      Maybe instead of blaming the patient, you should take a look at yourselves and try seeing what we see.

    • marley says:

      12:27pm | 08/12/11

      @JS - or, here’s an idea, get your ideas on medicine from science journals or your doctor instead of the newspapers or commercial television news.  Science hasn’t actually changed its mind on either wine or chocolate.

    • Miss Demeaner says:

      12:32pm | 08/12/11

      One day bacon grease can kill you, next day we’re not getting enough of it. doctors are always changing their minds

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      12:44pm | 08/12/11

      “it’s because “science” keeps changing its mind”

      Science is pretty solid on these things.  Read less tabloid news.

    • Ryan says:

      01:14pm | 08/12/11

      Science doesn’t change. It tests, improves, modifies, discovers and creates.

    • Richard says:

      01:58pm | 08/12/11

      The reason why people are turning away from MD’s is because all their knowledge is so conventional. Honestly, I reckon most intelligent people could do enough research into their own health through public library’s, University library’s, internet sources etc., to learn more about their own state of health than a regular Doctor could find out in a 15 minute consult.

      Not dissing Doctors, I like them. Many of my friends are Doctors. But no one is ever going to care as much about your own health as you are, and Doctors no longer have an absolute monopoly on Medical knowledge.

      I myself am very knowledgeable on all medical matters, but Doctors often get pissed off with me because I know so much. They say, “you should stop reading Medical text-books.” Why? I care about my health and I want to be as informed as possible.

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      02:54pm | 08/12/11

      “But no one is ever going to care as much about your own health as you are, “

      Which is a very good reason to see a doctor.  You can’t see the outside of a box if you’re inside, and so on.  People will mis-diagnose because they’re generally terrible at really understanding their symptoms.  By all means, be informed, but make sure you see a doctor as well.

    • Richard says:

      03:52pm | 08/12/11

      Oh yeah, for sure, I would never recommend someone to not see their Doctor. But what I’m saying is, the reason why people are turning to Alternative Medicine is because it is based on unconventional lore and knowledge which isn’t so easy to come by still.

      These days, with all the scientific Medical knowledge you could ever dream of being right there at your fingertips, people turn to practitioners with UNCONVENTIONAL knowledge, which is still relatively rare and hard to acquire.

    • Michael says:

      11:50am | 08/12/11

      Superstition and quack medicine are the enemies of rational thought and reason.  I have had friends opine that ‘Big Pharma’ is not interested in curing cancer: they would rather sell a treatment that ultimately doesn’t work anyway just to milk the patient for a few years before inevitable death.  This is totally illogical, I countered.  Any company that could truly develop a reliable, safe and effective cancer cure would be rolling in billions of dollars and have the whole world stampeding to their door.  Nope, this rational debate cannot be won.  ‘Big Pharma’ is evil and what’s more they keep all the quack herbal medicine folks down because ‘they’ don’t want the world to know the truth.  Some people find a perverse satisfaction in ‘knowing’ that they really know what’s going on, even if they’re totally wrong and cannot form a logical argument to support their case.  Superstitions and quack medicine have existed for thousands of years, but today the Internet is fueling the fire like never before.

    • Al says:

      12:56pm | 08/12/11

      ‘quack herbal medicine folks’
      Umm- not ALL herbal medicine is Quackery. (There are a large amount though!).
      There is Herbal medicine whose use and perscription is based on the amounts of active ingredients in the herbs that have been proven effective. (As opposed to the quacks who perscribe stuff based on what it ‘feels like’ or on the ‘energy’ or based on the shape of the herb with no consideration to the active ingredients).
      Of course to qualify to practice that type of herbalisim requires study in University level Organic Chemistry, Symptomology and Diagnosis, Botany (and more). As the final qualification doesn’t allow the title of ‘Doctor’ it is not often undertaken or they transfer accross into conventional medicine (or are simply scared of being labled quacks for using medicine in a non-manufactured or synthesised form).

    • Markus says:

      01:14pm | 08/12/11

      The same lack of logic drives the 18% gender pay gap myth.
      The most basic fundamental rule of capitalism (profit at all costs) would dictate that if women were doing the exact same job as men but for 18% less pay, no company would ever hire a man again.

      Nope, apparently the discrimination is so entrenched that shareholders are perfectly content to let it continue, at the expense of the company’s bottom line and their own dividends.

    • Zeta says:

      12:41pm | 08/12/11

      You know why people believe bullshit theories about bullshit pseudoscience? Because scientists are shit at explaining things. They’re boring.

      Case in point - Rob Morrison spends five bazillion words to say ‘quacks are bad and you should feel bad’ which Tors quite elegantly sums up every couple of months in her I Call Bullshit column with more brevity and humour.

      If you want to critique pseudoscientific bollocks, you have to make it funny, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

    • St. Michael says:

      01:08pm | 08/12/11

      This is why the scientific community still mourns the loss of Carl Sagan.

    • Mayday says:

      02:27pm | 08/12/11

      Thanks for that Zeta.

      The part were the doctor wants to save the poor patient by extending his life line with a biro was brilliant.

    • Paul M says:

      05:13pm | 09/12/11

      That’s because people are mostly stupid, and scientists mostly are not. They honestly find it hard to relate, to talk in dumbed-down sound bites.

      Really. Look around yourself someday. *Most* people are outright dumb.

    • PaxUs says:

      01:43pm | 08/12/11

      Perhaps this is because, even though scientifically proven, doctors and hospitals fail to give appropriate and effective pain medication to chronic pain sufferers?  The old ‘take two Panadol’  just isn’t cutting it!  People will go elsewhere, scientific or not.  People take what works, not what they are told works, but doesn’t!  Even if that means buying from the streets!  In any case, I question the scientific validity and effectiveness of many of the psychiatric medications available today and the pharmaceuticals new practice of repackaging Panadol in new exiting ways.  To many, the Climate debate is regarded as pseudo science.  Models are not factual, observable evidence!

    • Rick of the Dustbowl says:

      02:13pm | 08/12/11

      Maybe it’s because the real doctors are not always right, make mistakes, give drugs to pregnant women with unknown side effects, things like kemo where the side effects are just as bad as the illness and they have this thing where they have to save everybody sometimes prolonging pain and suffering. I’ll never forget seeing my dying grandmother asking for water and they would only give her ice.I don’t understand why didn’t bother to ask why but thought afterwards WTF she was dying why not give her water, Doctor knows best…....not always.

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      02:26pm | 08/12/11

      “Models are not factual, observable evidence!”

      No, but if they’re done well they’re almost as good as.  Check out how Neptune was discovered as an example.

    • Mayday says:

      02:34pm | 08/12/11

      @PaxUs Good point.

      Big Pharma regularly hides negative results and still puts their products on the shelves.

      Anti depressants for one come off badly when compared to placebo’s for mild depression and yet some doctors still keep pushing them.

    • marley says:

      03:45pm | 08/12/11

      @Mayday - and how do we know that some anti-depressants aren’t especially effective?  Hmm.  Would that be scientific research in peer-reviewed journals?  That the average GP might not be entirely up to date with his reading, doesn’t mean that the science is at fault.

    • PaxUs says:

      02:09pm | 08/12/11

      I forgot to mention that the ALP/Greens have there more than their fair share of ‘spiritual healers’ and ‘gurus’ floating around Canberra and elsewhere.  Didn’t Bligh recently hire some new age quack?  Politics isn’t scientific by any means and neither is the pseudo science of economics.  ( of course interested parties will try and tell you they are…)  We wouldn’t have been able to launch a satellite without it crashing or blowing up on take off, if our real sciences kept turning up the deadly results produced by economists and politicians.

    • david says:

      02:43pm | 08/12/11

      Rob, while you are running around the barn searching for the peer reviewed verification of the double blind tested placebo yadda yadda yadda - the horse has bolted, mate.

      It’s not about facts - its about perception. Most people will only respond when the results are self evident. You are offering data to people who want results - not from a lab - but in their own reality.

      Science has a marketing problem that is impacting on mainstream medicine. This has left an opening for others to flourish in the ‘health’ market.

      MARKETING TIP: If you want to come from a place of authority (medical professional), don’t trash the lesser opposition - especially when a big chunk of the market is already getting a perceived benefit from them. It just makes you look like a sore winner and…um…unscientific.

      The market is not polarised - many people have a combined approach to health. Alternative and mainstream medicine. Exercise and meditation. Healthy diet and supplements. This is reflected in the marketplace.

      By polarising the market into ‘us and them’, your article will only further convince those who are already convinced. You’ve pushed away the people you are trying to attract. Again - marketing problem.

      Sure, science tells us the rock is not ‘solid’. But it still hurts when you throw it at us.

    • Gordon says:

      03:57pm | 08/12/11

      During the enlightenment and the industrial revolution, few people understood any science, and those few who adopted the results of science got rich…or healthy…or both.  In short…science obviously could do something for you. Nowadays the benefits of science are spread out to everybody so far that we have forgetten they are there. To get a personal advantage you have to be a biotech guru or a Steve Jobs type. For most of us science is reduced to a nanny role: switch off that AC! Put down that whisky! All true, but sheesh!

      If people will pay quids to be made to feel good by some bozo you will not stop them by nagging about evidence. If humans were rational scientology (for example) would never have existed. For most people, understanding science will not get you rich/popular/laid. At most it will make you feel a sharp pain is the arse when your idiot friends rant on about planetary alignments.

      What passes for science learning is often no more than received wisdom, and so is easily diluted by anecdotes of Auntie Beryl’s miracle treatment by the ossichephalist . We actually need fewer, but better and more well-resourced scientists, and they need to be working on stuff that facilitates not limits human potential.

    • caz says:

      04:29pm | 08/12/11

      What about the dodgy pharmaceutical companies and their sponsorship of so much of the ‘independent’ research that occurs. Occasionally they’re caught and fined but how much do they get away with that we never know about? How can scientists continue to support fluoride on our water supplies when other countries are using the same evidence to take it out of theirs. Will not even get started on antidepressants….

    • barry from adelaide says:

      04:39pm | 08/12/11

      Alternative therapies work really well, unless you actually have something wrong with you. Then a trip to a real doctor is recomended!

    • Julie says:

      04:56pm | 08/12/11

      People are tired of the quick, get ‘em in and get ‘em out approach of today’s GPs. When I had glandular fever recently, my doctor didn’t recommend ANYTHING to help boost my immune system or get me feeling better, because you can’t prescribe a pill for glandular fever. After months of sickness which lead to further side-effects, I saw a naturopath that took the time to assess my health and diet and recommend changes. They also took the time to treat me like a human being and not hurry me out the door. Due to a complete change of diet and herbal supplements, I’m now feeling better than I have in years. No hocus pocus, no trick psychology, simply a health professional using their knowledge to provide accessible, sensible advice. Perhaps you’ll say that a GP could have offered me the same advice. I don’t doubt that, but the fact is - mine didn’t, and laughed at me when I told him I was seeing a nuturopath. The proof is in the pudding however - I felt like death following the GP’s (lack of) advice, and now feel fantastic after seeing a naturopath. These two don’t have to be pitted against each other, and it’s crazy to say that natural alternatives have not effect, when they are what humanity has used to survive for miliennia.

    • PaxUs says:

      06:11pm | 08/12/11

      @ Tim the Toolman - I’m not against models, especially if they prove their worth as in the case you mention.  Just making the point that ‘until’ they prove their reliability over time, they should not be tossed about as factual evidence. They have their place within science.  Just remember however, that we had models in earlier era’s that were thought to be correct.  Science is an evolving process. A new discovery could turn our current knowledge upside down or at the very least, require rethinking and modification of it to fit the new paradigm.  It’s happened in the past, so I can’t see why it won’t occur again.

    • bananabender says:

      06:37pm | 08/12/11

      There is an old joke in the pharmaceutical industry about the “second worse scenario”. This being the very unfortunate situation where a drug cures the patient rather than just temporarily masking symptoms. The worst scenario is, of course, death

    • Debbie says:

      06:39pm | 08/12/11

      Over the years I have on occasions used alternative therapies and had mixed results.  I have used a chiropractor in the US who was fantastic and got some great results, but used one here who was positively dangerous and wanted to “snap” my back back in an told me I needed months of work twice a week to fix it ! Definately don’t think they should call themselves Drs though.
      I have also used acupuncture and it it has worked or very specific things, but needs to be done by someone who know what they are doing. But having said that, my first port of call would always be to a Dr and to use conventional medicine, backed up by complementary therapies.

      To some respect, if they make people feel better and they feel they have improved then it has to some extent achieved its aim and people are most likely happy to have paid the money for that. Sometimes this may even be because people have time to talk and work out what the problem is with an alternative therapist,which may help resolve things, where as most Doctors have you in and the door so fast you hardly have time to speak. Being heard is sometimes the most important thing.

    • Gidgee says:

      10:29am | 09/12/11

      Superstition and human health you say?
      Give me strength.
      Such an association is as old as time itself - sick people seek succour and healing in various places but most of the seeking is done in a quasi-religious sense, either in the local church where the person’s interpretation of a god is begged for help “in their hour of need” or in the privacy of their own home as they go down on their knees pleading for relief from the reality of it all - then, of course, there are the fair-dinkum creed-based types who trek to Lourdes or to some other “holy” place on the globe where the waters (or whatever) are said to miraculously cure the afflicted.
      There will never be any alteration to mankind’s perennial hope and the religiously cultivated widespread superstitious belief that disease (and even death) can be avoided/circumvented if one prays hard enough to an unseen deity.
      Now that’s superstition!
      Gidgee.

    • wilma says:

      10:45am | 09/12/11

      In the late 1950’s Chiropractors spruiked their wares stating that short sightedness was caused by one leg being longer than the other.
      Perhaps it is time to trace the history of Chiroprctors in Australia . The person who considered him self the father of Chiropractory lived in Bondi and said that he arrived out here as a penniless migrant having been evicted from Egypt during ethnic cleansing. Medicine was banned from the dinner table.

    • Mark says:

      11:24am | 09/12/11

      It comes down to money, friends. The general public are starting to see the money behind the “science.” For me, that’s when credibility is lost and I seriously consider alternatives to the existing theory. This all started with Climate Change. The term “Climate Scientist” was not in existence until 15 years ago, but we’ve always had a climate and it has always affected our existence. Why have we not acknowledged this previously? All you need to ask yourself is “who benefits from convincing the general population that the human race is under imminent threat of extinction?”- The answer, of course is Climate Scientists who get money from Government funding and by such, increase their own pay packets. This of course is not the only area of science where money has dictated fact but once you see the possible link, an intelligent and critical human being cannot possibly be convinced that scientists are by any means perfect.

    • Sam says:

      11:50am | 09/12/11

      sigh. All science is politicised, in fact find me one scientific view that hasnt been corrupted by ideology or funding and i’ll congratulate you. A few simple examples:
      A geoscience is hired by an oil company to do some environmental studies. Instantly hes branded as a stooge who will only report what the company wants. Yet another scientist hired by Greenpeace is apparently without bias.
      My point being, legitimate science IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE tainted by politics. Im not saying that that all the research is dubious, but the political process itself taints whatever research comes though, one way or another. Climate science is an absolute mess, both sides are coming out with some rediculous nonsense I honestly dont know what to think.
      Back to the article, thank you, these crazy ‘alternatives’ are rubbish thanks for bringing it up!

    • zenparadox says:

      03:29pm | 09/12/11

      I call bollocks and shenanigans on the whole pseudo-scientific whiney rant that this article is. If Rob morrison is a fellow of any degree then he does more damage to the name of science than all the crockpots he rallies against.

      Patient with obesity driven symptoms presnts at GP. Gets 15 minute cattle call, some symptom masking pills on the public purse which will likely add more symptoms to their situation, gets told to come back for a rinse and repeat every month. The only winner here is big pharma, and they’re the puppetmaster pulling the AMA’s strings.

      Same patient goes to Naturopath, who spend an hour with them, at the patients expense (or their health insurance, but no medicare rebate). They make dietary and lifestyle reccomendations based on the underlying causes driving the symptoms, and supplements are recommended based on dietary inadequacy. Patient pays for these, no rebates from either government or HI funds. If they stick with the program, in most cases their symptoms go away, and they’ve been educated that the simplest way to good health is self-care. Who wins here? Patient, Medicare & you (less of your tax spent).

      Big Pharma doesn’t get a cut, so they pull their strings and the AMA and other robotic mouthpieces *looking at you Rob* pull out the old ‘Science as
      a religion complete with dogmatic ego-wanking preachers of the good word’ *still loooking at you Rob* ‘the sky is falling’ chestnut, and blast anything that doesn’t feed profits back through approved channels, under the pretense of doing some social service in the name of science.

      You can just easily come to harm in the clinic of some GP who doesn’t read enough and should have retired 10-15 years back when they stopped caring, as you can any of the quacks described by Rob in his rant above.

      But its not individual GP’s at fault, its the fact that corporate pharmaceutical manufacturers interests have driven public health policy for so long that we now have a model (15 min cattle calls here’s your prescription) where a decent ethical GP who keeps abreast of functional medicine advances and wants to use diet and lifestyle advice (as well anyone witha head for science might) has to set up outside the Medicare rebating system, to avoid the panalties that are imposed for going outside the lines.

      So the GP who actually addresses causes and gets results rather than prescribing for symptomm relief, is penalised out of the system, despite the fact that in the long term he ends up saving everyone time and money.

      Fix that Rob, instead of crying into your ‘nobody respects my scientific prowess’ milk, and you will take away the biggest driver of patients into alternative practises.

      The fact that I have to explain that to you, and all I have educationally is an arts degree in theatre [and a one percentile iq ranking wink ] leads me to question whether you have any grounds to question others scientific understanding at all…

      When you get Big Pharma’s member out of the AMA’s mouth and clean up the whole prescribe at will mentality, then you could legtimately question the integrity of other practises. Glass houses.

    • marley says:

      02:37pm | 11/12/11

      And I call BS on this entire comment.  I had moderately high cholesterol at my last check-up.  Doctor’s prescription?  All lifestyle related - exercise and diet.  No prescriptions, nor suggestion of same.  And I doubt he’s been “penalized out of the system” for giving common sense advice, as he’s been in practice for 50 years.

      Sure, he can’t spend half an hour with me.  That’s because his services are in demand, and there aren’t enough GPs to go around;  it’s not because of some plot by big Pharma (who, presumably, would want more doctors out there, not fewer).

      And as a theater grad, you seem to have gone for the bright lights and persuasive chatter of the Alt Med crowd, instead of doing the hard yards of looking behind the scene at the boring reality of genuine medical research.  Why don’t you check out the peer-reviewed articles proving that homeopathy, or accupuncture, or echinacea actually achieve any of the things they claim?  You’ll find plenty of stagecraft there, but not much substance.

    • zenparadox says:

      04:16pm | 09/12/11

      He he, the main problm is that the AMA needs a course of antibiotics to cure the bad case of (Big) Pharma-coccal infection of the mouth that it has.

      To summarise my point, you strengths should reveal your enemy’s weaknesses, try to do it with your mouth and you fail before you begin.

      People are not getting satisfactory service/results from GP’s, only churned prescriptional symptom control, so they go looking elsewhere. Fix the house of science by cleaning out the corporate interests dictating health policy and AMA policy, and you will stop driving patients towards quacks.

      But its much easier to posture about the sky falling and superstition, and it does stroke the ego nicely too. It achieves f@#k all though Rob.

      Write a similarly scathing piece about the real problems in the Health System, then you will have my deepest respect.

    • Paul M says:

      05:08pm | 09/12/11

      I knew with chick peddling her own alternative medicine, which she essentially brewed up in her bathtub (magnesium oxide, lavender, and tea-tree oil). She was shocked, shocked, shocked to discover that the TGA had power to keep her from making health claims: the *knew* that the stuff cured everything from hair loss to itchy toes. Didn’t have the heart to tell her that the TGA (and bodies like that) were set up *precisely* to put a stop to ignorant quacks peddling patent medicine to credulous fools. Which is what she was, and what she was doing.

    • jay says:

      09:09am | 11/12/11

      Paul M - Sorry but the TGA will only police three things for your friend: 1) Are the claims about a fatal disease? 2) Does she claim total cure? 3) Are any of the ingredients not “generally regarded as safe”?

      Answer NO to all three and the TGA will give you an approval number to put on your product. Even if you are knowingly selling a “remedy” remedy proven not to work. Even if they know it too.

    • Djoser says:

      09:55am | 14/12/11

      Thus, myth is already enlightenment; and enlightenment reverts to mythology. (Dialectic of the Enlightenment)

 

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