This is no solution for asylum seekers - it’s a con job

Patrick Kelly says:

07:44am | 19/10/10

... and don’t forget that the “tribunal” has been steadily stacked with refugee activists.

Fred says:

09:26am | 19/10/10

Has DIAC confirmed that Tamil boatpeople granted permanent protection have returned on their refugee travel documents(Clayton’s passports)  to the country which their DIAC officers and RRT said could not protect them from further persecution? I suspect this is Sri Lankan propaganda gleefully ceased on by the anti refugee xenophobes until proven otherwise!

Fred says:

09:33am | 19/10/10

The RRT has recruited some real and experienced human rights lawyers - professionals who KNOW the law, international and domestic.

Denny Crane says:

10:04am | 19/10/10

Eric, you are on the money, we need to resign from the convention.

We need to say this country is a no go zone for those who try to jump the queue, and you will be returned to your country of origin post haste, with your passport stamped never to be admitted to Australia again.

With this we need to go further and work with other countries lets say Canada who turn away illegals, that should you be caught trying to enter either country both exempt you in the future by doing this,a nd adding more countries to your group, you will slow down the tide of illegals, as the will know stopeed in one country the other alligned countries bar you as well.

Shane From Melbourne says:

10:23am | 19/10/10

For once I agree with Eric (still getting over the shock)....

Jon says:

12:23pm | 19/10/10

Agree, another Labor con job.

Edward Carson says:

01:06pm | 19/10/10

Yes, get out of the Refugee Convention now. It’s simply insane to have a system whereby immigration applicants who get in line and fail can simply then jump the queue and possibly succeed.  What type of message does it send to new arrivals about our jurisprudence? What happens to those queue jumpers who eventually get residence and apply for government housing. If they initially get knocked back why not simply go and squat in some temporarily unoccupied council house and let their legal aid lawyers fight the council for them in trying to resist or delay eviction?

acotrel says:

03:22pm | 19/10/10

The Liberal Party would love the Gillard gove rnment to adopt the ‘Pacific solution’! -  It’s all about ‘vindicating’ John Howard’s actions.  There is no way Howard can ever be ‘vindicated’.  To lock people up without recourse to the courts throgh habeas corpus, is a denial of basic human rights.  The Gillard government is acting as t hough it has ‘Australian values’ - we don’t lock kids up in Australia!  Howard’s actions were shameful, and all done in the interest of promoting his own political power - what an absolute DISGRACE? Scott Morrison and Abbott should be ‘mulesed’ along with the rest of the sheep!

acotrel says:

03:26pm | 19/10/10

I’d just love to see Abbott stand up in parliament,  and suggest Australia should rescind its signatory status with the UNHCR.  What a hoot that would be?

Kordez says:

03:42pm | 19/10/10

Nicely put Eric.

Ben81 says:

05:25pm | 19/10/10

acotrel, under John Howard we ended up with a handful of people in immigration detention.  He did what we had to do and got the exact result he set out to get, therefore he was vindicated long ago.  Old news.  Labor has returned us to the situation where we have thousands in immigration detention.  Don’t even pretend to care, people can see right through it and you would be just as outraged with this government if it wasn’t all about party politics to you.  Just what kind of twisted logic are you using?

The J Hathaway/A Arulanantham Solution says:

07:31pm | 19/10/10

Article 1C of the *1951* Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees (don’t know where you got “1948” from) states that refugees who voluntarily return to the country from which they claimed to be seeking asylum from persecution will no longer be considered to be refugees.

Australian refugee law is particularly strict on on-shore refugees in this regard, so you can’t say that they’re hopping back and forth between the two countries because that is simply not the case.

It’s quite common, in fact, for refugees to return to the country that they fled from before the fighting is over (or before whatever situation that forced them to leave has abated). Typically, this will happen when the refugee runs out of money and cannot sustain themselves in their host state, or when their longing to see the family that they left behind gets great enough that they become compelled to return, regardless of the dangers. Many of these refugees return and are never heard of again. The same has been known to happen to those Tamils you were just speaking of.

It is not my intention to level accusations, but I will say that I have spoken with a highly decorated Sri Lankan officer who *has* leveled serious accusations against the Sri Lankan government, and who was forced to seek asylum in Australia a few years ago after being threatened with trumped up charges of treason. The political situation in Sri Lanka is very complicated, but perhaps we should be skeptical about the Sri Lankan’s government’s claim that “there is no reason why anybody should leave Sri Lanka out of any fear.”.

You are dead right about the Convention, though. It’s broken, totally broken. Refer to my post further down the page for a bit more detail on that.

Matthew Cheyne says:

10:30pm | 19/10/10

I’m with you Eric but in a slightly different way. Either we are in this convention and obey by it to the letter or we do as you suggest and simply withdraw from the convention altogether. Personally I am in favor of the latter seeing that our government is treating the Refugee Convention as a joke; but I can tell you now that they will never publicly pull out of the convention. Instead they will do what they are doing now and simply obey the convention in name only.

Christian Real says:

10:37am | 20/10/10

Ben 81
Under John Howard we also ended up with Australian citizens illegally locked up in detention.
One prime example was Cornelia Rau, who was unlawfully detained for ten months 2004 - 2005.

Ben81 says:

01:31pm | 20/10/10

Christian Real - Yes that was a mistake, and there’s obviously a lot to that story.  And she wasn’t a citizen, check your facts. Does it really have anything at all to do with my point about though?  People pretend to care, but only seem to care when people are locked up under a Liberal government and couldn’t give a hoot when it’s Labor, even when there’s again thousands instead of a handful.  The hypocrisy is there as plain as day.

The Badger says:

09:03am | 19/10/10

Unlike Dr. NO who will just turn them around via his boat-phone?
A most excellent solution from the action man.

Leaping says:

09:25am | 19/10/10

“Hi you’ve reached Tony Abbot’s boat line, your call is important to us please select from one of the following options’
Press
1) to call in an air strike
2) to sod it off to Nauru to deal with it
3) to turn around a patrol boat and distract the captain to go fetch them

Benny says:

09:49am | 19/10/10

Anyone and I mean anyone is more competent than Gillard to run this country - that is a clear fact. Today’s news: The government wants to hide the release of the number of houses in danger due to poor insulation because they don’t want to start a panic. Really? I thought it was because Gillard doesn’t want to seem more incompetent than ever.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/insulation-data-kept-under-wraps-20101018-16qtz.html

Jade says:

11:36am | 19/10/10

Benny I knew it wouldn’t be long before another Labor bungle came along, they were actually on a good run for a while there!

MarK says:

12:02pm | 19/10/10

Jade it is because they have not actually done anything since kinofing Rudd.

it has been a policy and legislative free zone and will continue to be.

Government by committee you see. Only what The Greens and Windsor says is ok will be considered actionable.

Dash says:

12:03pm | 19/10/10

Hey Leaping, that must be Gillard’s same message now that the ALP has adopted the LNP’s policies. Maybe it’s sod off to East Timor instead or she has an extra option (4) to form a committee to deal with it!

Ben81 says:

01:48pm | 19/10/10

Leaping and Badger - Please, keep mentioning the “boat phone” thing, it just illustrates how desperate you are to put words into Tony Abbott’s mouth and cling to fiction from Twitter instead of bothering with pesky facts that may make you look silly.

Leaping says:

03:22pm | 19/10/10

FACT, from the iron man’s own mouth,  this is stated liberal party policy:

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/holy-asylum-seekers-tony-abbott-to-take-charge-of-boat-people-hotline/story-fn5z3z83-1225905662308

acotrel says:

03:36pm | 19/10/10

I note we didn’t have this fuss when the boat people came from Vietnam, after Australia and the US finished playing footsie in their country.

Tim says:

03:47pm | 19/10/10

acrotel,
Most of the Vietnamese refugees that came here in the 1970 were processed offshore. Hmmm.

Eric says:

03:55pm | 19/10/10

Acotrel, when the boat people came from Vietnam, your Labor God Whitlam opposed them. He said “we don’t need any Vietnamese Balts” - thus insulting two oppressed ethnic groups.

You really should try to learn a bit more, and rant a bit less.

acotrel says:

04:03pm | 19/10/10

’ I doubt Gillard has what it takes to find a solution as a so-called pseudo PM. ‘

Aren’t you the one who just called her a ‘pseudo PM’.. I’ve never heard anyone else call her that, so where does the ‘so-called’ come from?

MarK says:

04:35pm | 19/10/10

Oh leaping you poor misguided person.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/journalists_invent_an_anti_abbott_joke/

learn

dear oh dear…...I have this eiffel tower for sale if you want it

Ben81 says:

04:56pm | 19/10/10

Yes Leaping, I think you’ll find that any “boat phone” or hotline references in that article are based on the same rubbish.  There was never any special hotline or boat phone or anything like that or any intention to make one, end of story.  It all came from Tony Abbott saying the decision would end up with the PM to turn any boats back and he would be in contact with the Navy if that situation occured.  From then some twits on Twitter made up a story about a special “boatphone”, etc etc

Sherekahn says:

10:22am | 19/10/10

Indeed, in the UK there are Indian criminal gangs who supply the Indian migrants/students with Social Security cards and other ‘paperwork’ to allow them to ‘disappear’ into the fabric of Britain.
Here it is the Tamil Tigers association, (Sri Lankans) that secure them entry.  They have a Political organisation worldwide plus locally the help of a certain female member of the West Australian Green’s.

Jade says:

11:37am | 19/10/10

What is happening in the UK is our future… I hope you like it Australia! Its what you have asked for :/

Grateful Immigrant says:

10:09am | 19/10/10

Dear Clive, go sit with an Aboriginal Elder and learn the history of this great country. His or her people still “welcome people to country” - and just look at what you/your forefathers and mothers, did to the First People of Australia since 1788!

Daryl says:

11:59am | 19/10/10

Greatful Immigrant - I agree, just look at what our forefathers and mothers did! Like invent the wheel! Provide education, health, housing, a constant source of fresh water, electricity, clothes, shoes, roads, transportation, farming, and grazing. In fact look around, everything you see that’s from the western world that you enjoy today, take for granted and wouldn’t give back if someone offered you the chance to live like the natives did 200 years ago!

This country has developed more in the last 200 years, than it did in the 40,000 years prior. Thanks to the hard work of people like our forefathers and mothers. It’s a wonderful place to live and share as we always have.

Go and ask your Aboriginal Elder about sustainability. Or if you can’t go walkabout that far, call him on his taxpayer funded mobile phone!

Eric says:

02:22pm | 19/10/10

Grateful Immigrant, go ask your Aboriginal Elder what an uncontrolled flow of boat people did to the indigenous society..

Badger says:

02:24pm | 19/10/10

Daryl,
        I agree with you, the so called Aboriginal Elder, if you can find one thats is, is more likley to be of Anglisized name and as white as me.

Aboriginals have never put Stone on Stone to build anything to live in, and if he was to return to his Native Land to servive without any hand outs from us , he would starve to death in no time.

They can’t servive without all our products, Toyota 4 wheel drives, Aluminium Dingies and outboards with nets, guns to shoot and take what they like and eat , nothing is protected to them, only us.

mickijo says:

03:07pm | 19/10/10

Just study some of the reports from some of the aboriginal remote communities and you will get a clearer idea of what has been done to improve matters, but it is not all over yet. Education for the children must be mandatory and protection from marauders has a long way to go.

Ruchi says:

03:11pm | 19/10/10

Daryl, you seemed to be one confused person. The indigenous people definitely knew more about sustainability and how to exist in harmony with nature a lot more than your fore fathers did, who, mind you, didn’t invent the wheel. The wheel was invented thousands of years ago by the Mesopotapian people, which in present day lies in Iraq. The first european settlers in Australia were definitely not the ones who did. And basic fact of the matter; European settlers come to Australia, take this land away from Aboriginal people who’ve, like you said correctly this time, owned it for 40,000 years, exterminate males, rape women, all for racial/ethnic cleansing, introduce alcohol to this people who were never previously introduced to it, basically *uck them up real bad, and then go about saying how backwards they are, and how they depend on the dole. I am all for forgetting the past and getting on with the future but it’s bigoted misinformed and unaware people as yourself who make me so sick. When the European setllers started their expansion back in those days, they *ucked up native people everywhere real bad. And who cares if they built houses or supplied power there, they only did it for their own comfort. If you were a native, grateful is the last thing you’d be towards people who steal your home and massacre your people, and if 200 years later all they get is a taxpayer funded mobile phone to ‘make up’ for it,  count your stars that karma hasn’t come biting you in your you know where. Stop your whingeing mate, does no one any good.

Daryl says:

04:34pm | 19/10/10

Ruchi, you miss my point. You are so keen to jump on the politically correct path, you’re blinded to what I was trying to say. I’m sick of people who only see the bad in this country. I am sick of people who think that the Aboriginal community are untouchable no matter what. All I was trying to say, is that there was a lot of good that came out of European settlement. People are not looking to come to Australia because of the life Aboriginals have created for them. They want to come here for the opportuinites created out of the hard work and dedication of European settlement. That’s the point I’m making.

My point about sustainability was that Aboriginals know that you can’t just have unsustainable population growth. In other words, you need to control migration! My point about the wheel was that the Aboriginies didn’t even manage to have that and it was brought here by European settlement and it was a good thing!

There was no war to take this land mate. It wasn’t like the Maoris in New Zealand. You don’t have a treaty without a war and there was no fight! The Aboriginie had no concept of land ownership as we know it so your comment about stealing homes is a nonsense! And I might add, the rape of women and children is an appauling problem in current Aboriginal communities in certain parts of Australia. What are you doing to help or are you just making noise?

People like you who play the race card and get their back up over political correctness make me sick! What are you doing to improve the living standards of Aboriginals in this country? You’re willing to moan but is there real action?

I believe that the same welfare system should be made available to everyone no matter what race, creed or colour they are. I do not believe in one welfare state for natives and one for everyone else. That Ruchi, is a bigotted system! And it’s you that’s just spent 200 words whingeing and the bleating and whingeing of people like you who pretend to stand for native Australians,  is what does no one any good.

We must do more, but you know what, Aboriginies need to start looking after themselves. At what stage do you get off your @rse and do something for yourself and your family instead of playing the victim all the time? Whilst apologists like you exist, some will keep playing the victim.

Oh and the Karma’s all good.

Gregg says:

09:24pm | 19/10/10

I apologise for the slights against the indigenous people Ruchi and unfortunately it seems to be that the plans for additional asylum seeker housing has created considerable angst which has overflown to the comments on how indigenous people may be helped.
Both the history of indigenous people, the atrocitities committed against them and the many difficulties in indigenous people being forced to live where they were basically told to live and how they grapple with a non indigenous culture are far more complex issues than that of asylum seekers though the latter is also not so easy.

Comments re our indigenous people should never have been aired in this particular discussion for it will only increase the fog.
As for asylum seekers, their coming to Australia is a far different situation to first non indigenous settlers and there are many reasons why there needs to be a structured control on arrivals even if that did not occur a century and so back.
A population in Australia of 20M+ is a far cry from what we had in the nineteenth century and one would have to be near blind and death not to know of problems that Australia has with water and early indigenous people would have only been too aware of that and water is really what needs to determine Australia’s future growth even if we are surrounded by it for desalination creates its own problems re need for power and the desire for clean power and for that there’s the NIMBYs re Nuclear.

Nevertheless, Australia has had an extensive immigration program for many years, post WW2 immigration from Europe being a great contribution to developing the Snowy Hydro Electric scheme for both water harvesting and electricity supply.
We continued on with skilled immigration for the next half a century plus as our industrial base developed.
Unfortunately we now see that declining in recent times and so the numbers for immigration need to be questioned and also re sharing our available water supplies.
All through our skilled immigration programs, there have been in parallel, family migration and taking of true refugees from refygee centres around the planet.
There are many factors like what happens industrially and economically which will determine how well Australia is placed to offer places in the future to refugees.
The Asylum Seekers arriving via people smugglers are undermining both our efforts ro help refugees and also processing of other normal visas.
The costs must be getting astronomical and all the money being absorbed will mean money that could be used for other causes like hospitals, education and generally helping the many Australians in need, including our indigenous Australians.
I trust you can ignore ignorant unkind words and look at the full picture.

Ruchi says:

10:25pm | 19/10/10

@ Daryl,  The aboriginal people were more or less hunter gatherers, less violent, more nomadic, in short, peaceful people. That was the way of life for them for some 40,000 years. And oh, they did have sense of land ownership, just weren’t too bothered about it, correct me if I am wrong but Australia was roughly made up of 200 small nations/regions or something similar. And yes, you are absolutely right when you say there was no war, it was a massare. They weren’t warrior tribes like the Maoris were, they had no experience defending their lands.

Hence, it;s even more appaling what was done to them by early settlers. You wouldn’t just go try to take over someone else’s home just because they’ve got bad/no defenses , would ya? And you certainly wouldn’t think it’s ok to hurt them in the process and think it was ok beause they were defenseless, quite ironic, no?

And if someone lives somewhere for FortyThousand years, it’d be safe to assume it’s their home.

I love wheels, have come to depend on it like everyone else has, don’t necessarily think it’s only done wonders though if you think about carbon emissions each year. But you possibly don’t believe in the ‘whole climate change crap’ anyway, so I’ll let that go.

Come to think of it, I really can’t be bothered arguing my point with someone like yourself. If Aboriginal Australians are one welfare then so be it, it definitely hasn’t hurt the average australian much at all. I’d rather that than spend billions on sending armies to the middle east. But again, you sound like someone who’s all for that. If they do get more priority while applying for jobs etc, so be it, they’re definitely haven’t been taking other people’s jobs. It’s all cool, don’t make such a big fuss about something that hasn’t affected you much at all.

I know you’ll never change your views and will defend it to death, that’s fine, everyone’s entitled to their own opinions, but if you don’t have somethign nice say about someone (specially a racial group), just zip it. Or expect a nasty retort too.

For the record, I am a migrant myself, only been here some 3 odd years, and I am currently working with the aboriginal community in western australia while travelling through this vast land and it’s amazing landscape. I’ve seen the best and worst of it, and yes, there are sexual abuse problems within the community, but not anymore than in your average redneck dodgy suburb or town. Am not playing any political card here, just saw the hateful things you had to say about a certain racial group and everyone applauding you for it. Had to add my two cents in.

That was a long one, definitely need a glass of wine after that, and a long sleep. I suggest you do the same too, you seem to need it more than anyone else.

Daryl says:

08:03am | 20/10/10

Ruci, all I was trying to do was make the point that it is wrong to say nasty things about European forefathers and Mothers who built this great land and made it a place that people want to live in. I’m sick of people focusing on the negatives as I said in response to Grateful Immigrant’s post. I didn’t say nasty things about Aboriginals as you suggest in your post. Just that the country has developed significantly and positively in the last 200 years to a point where people want to come here. I don’t think anyone should be treated differently because of race, colour or creed and I never suggested that in my post. I am tolerant of your belief and opinion. Yet you call me biggoted! Since you don’t tolerate my view, perhaps I could suggets the same of you! At the end of the day we should all be respected but as I said, there are opportunities out there if you are willing to get off your @rse and work hard.

Also, you make assumptions about what my views are on climate change and the war in the Middle East. That reflects more on you than me. I think you need to have more of a balanced view and not blindly follow the politically correct line all the time. And it’s wrong for you to try to paint me as something that fits your argument, whatever that is. No living Australian should be held responsible for something which happened 200 years ago, and no one should be deamonised collectively because of white settlement. At what time do you move on?

Ruchi says:

10:42am | 20/10/10

@ Gregg, whole-heartedly agree with everything you have to say. Good to know there’s people like you on these forums/news sites. Objectivity is all it takes really.

@Daryl, you never said any hurtful things about anyone, on the contrary, I said you’re responsible for what happened 200 years ago?! Get a grip mate, the whole tirade started because of your slanderous views about aboriginal folks, and the twisted logic of ‘they didn’t put up a fight, so it was all ok to wipe ‘em out’.

I rest my case, the ocean is real nice and clear here, and right now it seems far more appealing than doing this. Have a good day.  I know I will!

Daryl says:

12:53pm | 20/10/10

Ruchi, where do I say anything about the Middel East situation? Where do I say anything about Climate Change? Where do I say it was all OK to wipe Aboriginies out? Where did I accuse you of saying I was responsible for what happened 200 years ago? You’re powers of comprehension are seriously lacking since I never said any of that! Still don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story eh Ruchi! I object to you making lies up about my posts. And I think it’s wrong for you to be so blinded you can’t debate sensibly without calling people names.

The plight of Aboriginal Australia is largely down to the interference of politically correct apologists like you! Who run their own agenda, stifle real debate and live whining about what happened 200 years ago! Stop making up lies to try to back up your flimsy agenda. Maybe you should take your own advice and get a grip.

acotrel says:

03:56pm | 19/10/10

’ The wheel was invented thousands of years ago by the Mesopotapian people, which in present day lies in Iraq. ‘

Probably invented by Casey Hussein for use in the camel drawn chariot races?

Roja says:

10:42am | 19/10/10

Last I checked Iraq, Afghanistan and Sri Lanka were not in South East Asia.  I think you mean the Middle East and the Sub-Continent. 

As for this decision endangering more lives, I don’t think it will affect numbers one way or the other.

Charlie says:

10:44am | 19/10/10

you ever considered why someone might risk their life to travel via a rickety wooden boat on such a dangerous journey in the first place??

someone please give me proof that all refugees (and it would seem in australian terms all immigrants) do not become useful productive members of society??

Richard says:

06:27pm | 19/10/10

To answer your first question Charlie, I thought it would have been obvious that the reason why is because our standard of living in Australia is so much higher than in 3rd world countries. But their are millions upon millions, even billions of poor people living in 3rd world countries. We are not going to let them all just traipse into our country and set up their ghettos and enclave in every city. And its manifestly unfair to let the ones that are rich enough to afford to pay people smugglers in at the expense of the more needy poorer refugees.

And in reference to your 2nd point, surely you are aware of the logic idiom that you cannot prove a negative. The onus is on you to prove that they ARE all useful productive members of society, not the other way around.

Gregg says:

02:08am | 20/10/10

@Roja,
Suggest you have a look at numbers re people smuggling and how they have varied with different policies in place.
@ Charlie.
They no doubt do not want to try and get classed as a true refugee in the many refugee camps in the region and with UNHCR having something like 27M registered about the planet they are basically just queue jumpers and doing so is undermining the true refugee program and processing times for the skilled visa applicants that do make quicker contribution to Australia.
Suggest you look up skilled visas on http://www.immi.gov.au and you will see that a reasonable standard of english is required for starters.
Just because you probably have no idea, skilled visas can normally take anywhere in excess of 12 months to be processed and immigration resources being drafted into handling the people smuggler situation is seeing that extended further.
People from countries classed as having a high risk require extra security checks and the resources for people smuggling are also causing significant effect there too.
These are just some of the issues that much of the public is not aware of.
Most if not all detention centres are being run by a contractor and that with leasing motels etc. is adding considerably to what taxpayers are up for.
Lawyers will be starting again to have many Xmases because with more and more asylum seekers coming on shore there will be the full legal process they can go through with appeals etc., again your expense.
Did you know that several services personnel have already contracted TB from the people smuggling actibity and there have been other contagious diseases reported at Xmas Island.
Yep they are sure going to contribute to Australia with sicknesses, legal issues which btw already include several million$$$ in damges claims, then needing to learn english and also become trained in some skills to Australian Standards.
Enjoy it all Charlie and not seeing taxes helping our own old and needy.

Gavin says:

08:24am | 19/10/10

John Howard had the answer.
How many people died while making the dangerous trip after John Howard implemented sensible rules regarding illegal arrivals???
Then the “open up the borders” mob got in and changed rules that were working.

marley says:

09:01am | 19/10/10

While I agree with your points, the problem is that it is virtually impossible to separate the genuine refugees from the illegal migrants.  Mr. Rintoul assumes that everyone who arrives on a boat is a genuine refugee;  interestingly, the UNHCR would not agree.  There’s a lot of material on their website about the challenges of “mixed movements” comprising genuine refugees and economic migrants, and the problem of sorting one from the other, and not demonizing the whole lot.  But the UNHCR is very much in favour of the sorting process.  For myself, I think mandatory detention isn’t necessary (except for those who present security or criminal risks) but I do think a far more objective, hard-nosed refugee determination process is.

MBison says:

12:47pm | 19/10/10

It is not impossible to tell the difference. The UN charter states, A person claiming asylum for fear of harm posed in their native country, must seek asylum in the nearest safe country”.  How many countries must Sri Lankans, Afghanis Iraqis etc pass through to get here. As an ex sailor who caught some of these ‘asylum seekers’ they have no passports, refuse to give names and refuse to tell you their home country. They come to Australia because it is known they will be housed, fed and given free medical. When Howard instituted the Pacific solution we had no illegals as they knew it was hopeless and would not receive any charity. Now we have thousands….do the math.

I wonder If a homeless person breaks into your house, how many of you would let him stay? He’s breaking the law even if he is a ‘Shelter Seeker’.

Besides I want my tax dollars going to help our homeless, our sick and poor.

Judith Vinn says:

01:00pm | 19/10/10

Gaven, all the people that went to Naru are now living in Australia, all John Howard did was waste money and tell lies about them throwing their children over the side of the boats.The only thing I can see is to close all our borders until we do clean up this mess, no-one gets in, we can’t have people bringing their trouble’s here.Unfortunately they do not change once here, they still carry the same grudges and customs and religious wars and don’t give a dam about our feeling’s, it has to stop, bugger the rest of the world, let them clean up their own back-yard and then start on ours.

dinkidi Ozzie says:

02:59pm | 19/10/10

There will be no real justice until the whole of this “asylum seeker” scam is exposed for what it is. Even the name"asylum seeker” is used before the boatpeople apply for it. The real Aussies have to battle out everything they need, the boat people simply move in and everything is given to them -at our expense. Encouraged by bleating hearts like Rintoul, Greens and the ALP. All designed to shaft the tax payer right to the end. With the help of the ever obliging MSM

Gregg says:

02:16am | 20/10/10

Sludger,
Australia has had a long term refugee program to the tune of currently 13750 + perhaps a quiet 500 extra the previous Immi minister Evans sneaked in for people in Indonesia that were not using people smugglers but in detention there.
What the people smuggling is doing is undermining the true refugee programs and the UNHCR has about 27M of them in different refugee centres around the planet and they never seem to look anywhere near half as healthy as the people using people smugglers nor have any money.
The people using smugglers are just jumping the queue and white anting true refugees and the government knows this and will not only not admit the same but is pandering to them with the welcome mat and now putting an even bigger sign to direct them here.
The farce does seem to extend to those in the media who do mot want to report the truth.

ZSRenn says:

08:33am | 19/10/10

Well said vote changer.

An announcement last week that 2,000,000 Australians live in poverty.

That is almost 10% of the population.

Where is the debate on this issue?

Jan says:

09:11am | 19/10/10

Exactly Vote Changer - I have often thought plenty of homeless people are sick with envy at the thought that so called “asylum seekers” (queue jumpers and freeloaders more appropriate) are given more assistance than they could ever dream about.  Time to take care of your own Australia; as a first priority in the very least.  Somehow cannot see this happening.  Why?

HappyCynic says:

10:20am | 19/10/10

@Vote Changer, but the xenophobes and the refugee advocates don’t care about the homeless, and also there’s nothing anyone can do about homelessness when the people on the streets won’t help themselves.

Besides, poor people are poorly educated, badly informed and easily bought.  This makes them excellent sheep for the flocks of the Labor and Liberal Parties (remember the “Howard Battlers”?).  Why would a pollie want to do anything that might jeopardize that?  It’d be political suicide.  No it’s better, politically, to keep people poor and ignorant.

jasperjen says:

10:36am | 19/10/10

well said and will encourade all Asylum seekers to bring a child with them even if that child is not even legally their child.Putting more children at risk we know abiut the boats that arrive but what about the ones that dont.

Charles says:

10:38am | 19/10/10

I’m sorry but i simply feel asylum seekers display far more determination to be productive memebrs of society compared to many others- look at the contribution vietnamese and cambodian boat people have made.  And i might borrow your tory attitude and generalise a little, homeless people have so many options to better themselves and become productive members of the community- and right now i’d rather the $20K i lost in tax to go to refugees than bludging homless people.

Reg says:

10:56am | 19/10/10

ZSRenn I do not believe your figures of 2,000,000 who live in poverty, without your defining your standards.

There are 18,000,000 who live in poverty in the US out of a population of 300,000,000. This compared with our 20,000,000 with practically no need to insulate against snow and ice to conserve expensive heating power. We mostly don’t even have double glazing to make it barely livable.  By our standards the majority of US people live in cardboard boxes (houses) of dimensions we would regard as quite unacceptable.

If we in Australia were to match those US standards we could accommodate millions without any problem, because they come from the same warm climate as we do.  Are you suggesting we should?

Roja says:

11:48am | 19/10/10

“An announcement last week that 2,000,000 Australians live in poverty.”

I sincerely hope you do realise those living in poverty includes a number of these migrants, now Australians.  Particularly the ones with language difficulties & deep seeded pyschological problems from the trauma they suffered.

MarK says:

12:05pm | 19/10/10

What trauma Roja?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/sri-lanka-urges-hard-line-on-tamil-asylum-seekers/story-e6frg6nf-1225939893006

All the bullshit about push factors sure does stink now.

Jade says:

01:11pm | 19/10/10

The reason that most people are homeless in this country is by choice. They chose to take drugs, they chose to spend their government welfare cheques on alcohol and cigarettes and they chose to budget ineffectively. With the amount that most people in this country living on welfare get in benefits, I would be able to live quite comfortably as a single person.

Refugees on the other hand, have been forcibly displaced from their country, denied basic rights to food and medical assistance and in many cases been tortured or watched their families be tortured and killed. They have no other option in many cases but to flee their countries.

I have far more sympathy for these people than the homeless, the majority of whom are there because they chose to take addictive substances or waste what was generously provided to them by the government, at the expense of the taxpayer.

Ryan says:

02:40pm | 19/10/10

@Charles: perhaps you haven’t realised this but we don’t have Tories here, your home country of England has that yes, the same home country you probably left because its a cesspool of fake “refugees” and is unrecognisable since your beloved Tony Blair came to power. Why did you come here to do the same? Go back to England and live in what you advocate.

fairsfair says:

03:23pm | 19/10/10

Jade, do you make that sweeping generalisation about Indigenous Australians too?

Bit stereotypical in both the angels and demons camp there.

Charlie says:

04:24pm | 19/10/10

Ryan- you seem to be confused, i was born in Australia- to an Italian migrant mother and a father whose family include Peter Lalor, so excuse me for utilising a term the perfectly encapsulates a group of people in this country.  So i now pose this, you are a unicorn from mars!

Now interesting to see you have turned the debate into a personal attack, lackign facts i assume?

Roja says:

07:26pm | 19/10/10

@MarK - so very laughable that you used this at as compelling evidence.  So you believe the very leaders of Sri Lanka that bombed the living crap out of the Tamils claim when they say they aren’t being persecuted now. 

If you believe that then I guess you were utterly convinced by the Chinese government when they claimed the Nobel peace prize went to a terrorist.

Nice one.

James1 says:

12:57pm | 20/10/10

The homeless could just get jobs, like the rest of us, and like the vast majority of migrants and asylum seekers…

It is interesting that you privilege one group of disadvantaged over another - why is that so?  Why should my money go to bludgers and drug addicts when it could go to someone who has sailed halfway across the world for the privilege of living in this country?  I would say an asylum seeker has done far more to earn my tax money than some alcoholic who can’t keep a job.

CL Angus says:

08:59am | 19/10/10

What most people fail to understand is that the fact that these asylum seekers have money is the reason WHY they are being persecuted.

A lot of asylum seekers are from minority groups, and when they successfully build a life in their home countries the majority population can see this happening and so get jealous. By jealous, this usually means ‘kill and hurt said minority group’.

That roughly 90 per cent of boat arrivals get given protection is evident that these aren’t the people we need to worry about. By all means work to stop people smugglers, but punishing the people who most need help is not the right way.

Also, I should note that detention centres cost billions of dollars to build, and many millions more to run even without asylum seekers within them.

Why does nobody seem to think that a compromise solution - in between letting them go free and locking them up in remote parts of the country - might be the way to not only save money, but to minimise further suffering? Are we all THAT threatened by these people?

Markus says:

12:08pm | 19/10/10

CL Angus
The people who most need help are those who have been sitting in UN refugee camps for years, waiting for their chance to be given refugee status in another country.

Queue Jumpers is a terribly crude term, but accurate. Every person who arrives illegally by boat that is given Asylum Seeker status ensures that another who has been waiting in a camp for years for their chance has to wait just that bit longer.

CL Angus says:

02:45pm | 19/10/10

The only reason these people end up ‘jumping’ a queue is because the Australian Government has linked boat arrivals (who fall under Refugee Convention obligations) with our resettlement intake (which is a separate international obligation). We are the only Western country which does this, yet compared to the rest of the world we are a minnow in terms of an asylum seeker haven.

In terms of who needs help more, we don’t pick refugees in camps by order of arrival or who needs assistance first - we still cherrypick the vast majority of them year after year. This was why we have had a large number of African refugees arrive, yet we had less than 50 from Indonesian refugee camps come across.

But, even if we were resettling those who need help the most first, and even if boat arrivals are less in need of help than camp-based refugees, this STILL does not mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater and assume all boat arrivals are illegitimate.

ALL asylum seekers have a right to be assessed on their INDIVIDUAL merits, not what the Australian public believes is a priority. This is why we have several thousand successful on-shore applications each year, as well as the 90 per cent success rate of boat arrival - these people are in just as much need for help as any other refugee, camp or not, and as such need to be given protection promptly and compassionately.

There are many issues with our immigration policy, but queue jumping is one of the more minor ones. If you want boat arrivals to stop, make the refugee camp processing more efficient. Crack down on the actual smugglers via joint task forces with Indonesia and other SE Asian nations. Remove the link between boat arrivals and resettlement so that delays aren’t enforced upon those who stay behind.

Locking people up and spending many billions trying to scare the rest of them away is simply a waste of money and time, and only serves to cause those who genuinely need asylum even greater mental trauma.

marley says:

03:45pm | 19/10/10

CL Angus - just for your information, there is absolutely no international obligation to resettle refugees out of the camps.  Australia is one of very few countries which does so.  Admittedly, it is the only one that links onshore and offshore resettlement, but bear in mind that most of the world doesn’t make the linkage because it doesn’t do offshore resettlement at all.

acotrel says:

06:40am | 20/10/10

‘what erks me is that they have $15,000 to shell out to the boat smugglers to get them across and then live off my tax dollars which should instead be spent on infrastructure development!’

When Howard was in government, there were plenty of tax dollars available, and they still weren’t spent on infrastructure?

TimB says:

07:30am | 20/10/10

@ Acotrel- That’s because they were used to pay off Labor’s debt instead.

Damocles says:

09:50am | 19/10/10

@ Ken Maynard….spot on! Couldn’t agree more. The west, we are told by all and sundry, is the cause of all the evil in the world, so why in hell do they come asking us for help? They come to change our society, from the inside, using our resources. They have no intention of assimilating into our society and accepting our way of life. They bring their hatreds and prejudices with them and use our country as a place to launch their everlasting feudal battles. We are being dragged back to their ancient, supersticious ways. And may I just add, this emotional argument about “children behind razor wire”, oh come on! Get off the grass! Children don’t care where they are as long as they are with their parents!! You do gooders are putting an old head on young shoulders! I repeat, children DON’T CARE where they are as long as they ARE WITH their parents!! Behind razor wire, my arse!!

ashamed of oz says:

10:26am | 20/10/10

The only comment that has made any sense on this subject.

“WHERE WE CAN”. does not apply to people that come to this country on student visa’s and then choose not to leave when thier contract is up. Once they are detained then stage protests about the unfair way they are being held.

Give me a break, I was taught by my parents that the only way to better myself is to better those around me. Alas my western beliefs are seen as the root of all evil

Lin says:

12:38pm | 19/10/10

Thanks for this link MarkK - it indeed shows what a fraud it is!! But not the fact that they are behind razor wire - it shows the fraud of the so called ‘refugees’!
Thousands of men, including the male under-aged youth who we now count as ‘children’! Where are their families!?!? Have they left them behind in the ‘dangerous’ circumstances?? No!! It’s a scam to get into a western country by fraud, then bring all the family later. And continue living in the medieval tribal structures, bringing with them all the problems of their country, while living of the money handed to them by the ‘decadent’ west. Indeed ‘failure and deceit writ large’!!

Andy W says:

11:50am | 19/10/10

Legal immigration peaked in 2008 at around 300,000, this was mainly due to loop holes in student visas left open by the howard government.
These loop holes were closed by the Labor government 2008 and migration numbers have been falling ever since and are expected to be around 180,000 this year.
Asylum seekers arriving by boat have increased in recent years but this has no effect on overall migration. Any increase in onshore processing is offset by a decrease in refugees accepted from offshore processing camps run by the UN.
The ‘stop the boats’ campaign is designed to fool voters like you into thinking the Liberal party is the low immigration party, while quietly appeasing the demands from the business sector for high immigration.

Dash says:

01:08pm | 19/10/10

Thanks Andy, but “I’ll turn the boats around” slogan belonged to Rudd and the ALP from 2007’s election campaign. It was designed to fool voters like you to continue voting Labor. Just like the lies about grocery choice, fuelwatch, we’ll build 260 childcare facilities, I’m a fiscal conservative, root and branch tax reform (bullsh!t), we wont touch the private health tax rebate (bullsh!t), we’ll deliver more affordable housing, we’ll deliver chaeper better childcare, no child shall live without a laptop, there will be no carbon tax, we will abolish compulsory uni union fees, I was only a member of the Socialist Forum in my 20s (lie, a member ‘till 2002), I fully support PM Rudd, the profits tax is not negotiable etc etc. As noted by many on this page, the ALP are one big lying pack of con artists!

The Labor party appeases the union movement who are interested in nothing but retaining their own power! Labor backed builders with their noses in the taxpayer trough over the school halls scheme is a disgraceful example!

As you say, legal immigration peaked in 2008 under Rudd and the boats keep on coming as a direct result of the ALPs dismantling of the Howard government’s policies. Thanks for confirming my comments.

Andy W says:

02:42pm | 19/10/10

I ‘m glad you could get all that off your chest Dash.
Technically Labor was in government when net migration numbers peaked shortly after taking office, but it was due to Howard government policy. The point is they have been dropping dramatically ever since Labor changed the rules in 2008. If you are really concerned about high immigration you should be questioning the policies of the former Liberal government.
As far as con artists go, you should look at the language used by Scott Morrison who recently announced that last year we had a record number of illegal boats arriving in Australian waters; its not a record number of refugees, or asylum seekers arriving on boats, just a record number of boats. ‘Stop the Boats!’

Dash says:

04:54pm | 19/10/10

Yeah thanks Andy I feel much better. The point I make is that there are a significant number of failed policies and lies that this Labor government should be held accountable for. I have listed a few which I doubt are up for much debate.

I understand your statistics re students and I’m happy to take your word for it but I think you will find that illegal boat arrivals have been steadily increasing since Labor changed the rules. This is what the debate is about and this is what people are concerned about fixing. The ALP told us they had a solution but that is looking more and more like another lie. There was no East Timor solution when announced. The removal of temporary visas appears to have caused issues. And people want to understand why the government is spending more taxpayers money on centres rather than trying to fix the problem.

Oh, and I’m not concerned about “immigration” at all. But as I said in my post, we need to protect our right to decide who comes and under what circumstance. I am concerned about the fact that there is a trade in human cargo which is dangerous and should be reduced by the policies followed by our government.

I’m happy for Australia to continue to grow, but in a way that is sensible, sustainable and economical. And in a way that is under our control.

MarK says:

08:31am | 19/10/10

Ahh yes certainty.

Wouldn’t it have been nice of Ms Gillard and company to have been certain about the policy of building more on shore detention cnetres oh I don’t know…say 6 or 8 weeks ago when that little democratic process called an election was on.

Let me see.

We go from the laughable

http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/campaign-countdown-she-will-decide-who-comes-here/

to the capitulation we see today.

Serious question ian - what do you believe would have been the reaction in the election campaign if Gillard had announced she would build 2 probably 3 new on shore detention centres and released people into the community.

Hmmm?

That certainty of fact might have been nice to know in August eh?

Gillard is a liar.

That is all.

Adam Diver says:

09:02am | 19/10/10

Any source would still be speculation as it has yet to happen. No need to be a smart a**e about it. Perhaps the comments deduced the likely consequences using logic.

I.e Spike in boat arrivals, harsh laws passed by howard reduced numbers. Repeal of such laws by Rudd has increased arrivals. Open borders = ????, feel free to fill in the gaps Ian

MarK says:

09:45am | 19/10/10

http://www.immi.gov.au/managing-australias-borders/detention/_pdf/immigration-detention-statistics-20100930.pdf

Here is a graph ian - sort of shows those pesky facts too.

Hate it when facts get in the way of a good rant though.

Print it out and pop a dot when Rudd came to power and relaxed the laws.

Now lets us see what happens when people know if they bring kids along for the ride they get tossed straight into the community.

Any comment?

On the facts that is.

iansand says:

09:56am | 19/10/10

Adam Diver - I think that might be my point.

MarK - The purple pills might help.

The Badger says:

12:20pm | 19/10/10

iansand

Things will always be better under a coalition government.
Just ask them.

There is no such thing as push factors when it comes to asylum seeker.  It’s all the fault of faceless men and women controlled by union thugs who are drawing asylum seekers to our shores.

The party that couldn’t get their election costings right and blew it by 12 billion dollars (a small mistake), the party of no seeks to solve the “problem” of asylum seekers with a boat-phone and a good sweep under a rock on some desolate guano coated island.

Nicole says:

12:53pm | 19/10/10

Ahhh, I knew you would one day see the light Badger.

Ben81 says:

01:37pm | 19/10/10

The Badger - can you please explain to us exactly what the “push factors” were that conveniently and coincidentally happened at the exact same time that Kevin Rudd softened our laws and attitudes on border protection and illegal immigration?
You know, something that made us go straight from just about 0 boats per year into the hundreds pretty much immediately, it sure must have been something massive that I missed.  Was it something in the places that Labor was so unconcerned about that they put a freeze on refugee applications from people arriving from those countries?

The Badger says:

02:32pm | 19/10/10

Ben81

How on earth did you miss the end of the civil war in Sri Lanka?

Ben81 says:

05:05pm | 19/10/10

Badger - uhh, you mean the one that ended over a year before the spike in arrivals?  That’s *ended*, not started, or got worse, and you’re trying to say it was just a coincidence that they happened to come when Kevin Rudd opened the gate?  And even if the Tamils were still fighting against their government, what does that have to do with all the Afghans etc, just for one example?  Are you even trying?  How can you just not accept that our border protection and immigration laws just might have an effect on border protection and immigration?

Ben81 says:

09:13pm | 19/10/10

Sorry I meant to say after not before.  Trying to make two points at once, same difference to this argument anyway…

Roja says:

12:13pm | 20/10/10

@Ben81….

The Sri Lankan government launched it’s attack on the Tamil’s in the North in 2007

The “Surge” happened in Iraq in 2007.

In Afghanistan violence against civilians hit it’s peak in 2007. 

Kevin Rudd was elected in 2007.

Only 3 of these 4 events affected the surging number of refugee’s.

Ben81 says:

01:13pm | 20/10/10

Roja, there was clearly over a year between anything happening in Sri Lanka and the arrival of the Tamils.  You may be surprised to know that there was a lot happening in Afghanistan and Iraq prior to 2007, and no convenint statistics can explain away the face that in the years prior there were pretty much ZERO boats arriving while the place was in a very similar situation.  The suggestion that any of your reasons, even if they were 5 times worse, are even close to being solely responsible for us going from zero to hundreds of boat arrivals overnight is plain ridiculous.

Roja says:

04:57pm | 20/10/10

@Ben81 - “there was clearly over a year between anything happening in Sri Lanka and the arrival of the Tamils.”

You’re statement proves beyond any doubt that you don’t have any idea about the timeline of the Sri Lankan civil war. 

Remember when Afghanistan was practically done and dusted, so they launched into invading Iraq?  That neglect led to the return of the Taliban who went from being deposed leaders to a large scale insurgency of all and sundry (Note: insurgency may not contain real Taliban).  2007 was a key point when civilian deaths spiked from that reorganised group, ergo civilians started getting out en masse.  After 6 years of occupation things had only gotten worse, civilians started fleeing - particularly those that had helped the US and were being persecuted. 

Nope, you keep blaming Kevin Rudd.  I’m sure it’s convenient for your own political agenda.

Ben81 says:

12:42pm | 21/10/10

Roja, obviouslty I was referring to the end of the civil war, and I’m not imagining the arrivals of all those Tamils early this year and last year.

Your entire position relies on some assumption that “push factors” were nonexistent in the years prior to 2007, and is therefore completely invalid and ridiculous. 
Listen to yourself, you’re actually still insisting that all these people coming from different places were all coincidentally forced to do so only from 2007 onwards, and it had nothing at all to do with a situation where it was impossible for people smugglers to run their businesses being reversed.  Wake up to reality.

Peter says:

11:42am | 19/10/10

Patrick, we have signed up to international law relating to refugee protection, there are no ifs or buts about it. Presumably you would also not have felt any moral compulsion to assist Jews fleeing Germany before and during WW2 - many of those fleeing Nazi Germany paid people smugglers to escape, this did not, of course, diminish the strength of their claim to protection.
You post lacks an evidence base - asylum seekers arriving by sea comprise a tiny fraction of immigrants in Australia, while their mode of arrival is ‘unauthorised’ the act seeking asylum is not unlawful, it is, in fact, respected in the terms of the Migration Act 1958.

Kristin says:

08:15am | 19/10/10

Better still, if you can’t spell it don’t say it.

iansand says:

08:30am | 19/10/10

Is that boarders in religious schools (in which case you may have an argument) or all boarders?  And I don’t think the Navy has the necessary skill set.

T.Chong says:

08:50am | 19/10/10

John Howard “blow boats out out of the water” ????
THats a claim Ive never heard before , and not even the most full on Howard hater has made.
What boats did this happen to.? or are you trying to give some sly nod and wink to GWs little deputy that something happened we should all really be proud of , if only we had your inside info?
Just hard to know which side you are trolling for, or worse still, you believe it.
Only one person blowing hard here, Jeremy. You.

Fred says:

09:31am | 19/10/10

My borders don’t need protection from unarmed miserable asylum seekers

The Badger says:

12:58pm | 19/10/10

What?

Someone is stealing our board shorts?

How un-Australian of them

Reg says:

05:43pm | 19/10/10

Careful what you wish for.

marley says:

12:22pm | 19/10/10

Actually, we legally owe refugees protection.  We do not owe asylum seekers anything but the opportunity to make a claim for that protection.

Kordez says:

04:33pm | 19/10/10

@Fred, Australians have a right to be protected from foreigners with the clear intention of entering the country illegally and if not illegally, then at least sneakily. Detention provides protection for both parties and can hardly be classified as punishment or deprivation, when the Australian population is funding the services offered to them, to help them. There are benefits that each receive that Australians don’t while their claims are processed. Free health care, food, water, electricity are some examples. If short term detention is worse than home, why come here and behave like a dick on rooftops at the expense of the Australian tax payer?
If you were Australian you’d be labelled an ungrateful bastard! But instead soft folk throw sympathy their way, because they believe these people are the most hard done by people in the world. Well mate it’s not true. You know how long a smugglers fee would feed a family in poverty stricken regions of the globe? Over 5 years and it would build my new deck that I’ve been saving for.

If you need help, Australians will give it to you. But they should not have to jeopardise their national security by allowing unidentifiable strangers to wander around.

Tim says:

11:24am | 19/10/10

Ah a true believer.
You just know that you’re view is correct don’t you Fred?

Maybe you could show some compassion to the millions of refugees stuck in camps overseas without the means to travel through multiple countries to reach Australia?
Surely if we can only take a limited amount of refugees each year, then we should be choosing those who are most at risk of persecution and death?

Fred says:

12:02pm | 19/10/10

Ah Tim,  this Fred is an informed Australian who volunteered in a Thai refugee camp in the 1980s, who has helped Indochinese refugees settle here, who has provided support to the temporary protection visa holders discriminated against by the Howard regime , and who knows that our government elected every three years determines every year what the quota will be of selected refugees from UNHCR’s camp queues. It’s a quota that has not increased in keeping with the high immigration rate which stimulates our economy , and we surely could be more generous than 6 000 refugee places pa - say 1 % of the 300 000 immigrants pa? The few thousand asylum seekers coming by boat have a very high approval rate - meaning they are as genuine a refugee as any one in a camp, anywhere. It’s a fair guess that someone prepared to risk their life on a boat journey is at the high end of the “risk of persecution” scale - and that certainly is true of many Afghans, Iraqis, Iranians and Tamils taking that life threatening risk.. Today is the 9th anniversary of the loss of 353 men women and children at sea when the unseaworthy SIEVX sank. Most had family already in Australia and there was no other way to family reunion.  Boat people are self selecting, but most are truly worthy of our compassion and a place in the sun. Come meet some of these folk, Tim!

Tim says:

12:38pm | 19/10/10

Fred,
completely agree that we should accept more refugees. no argument about it.
But surely the ones we take should be determined by us, not by the fact that they had the means to reach our shores.
I don’t know how you can claim we should accept boat people then in the very next breath mention SIEV X. There isn’t a more persuasive argument for us to try and stop boat arrivals than the SIEV X tradgedy.
How do we get these people to stop making that inherently dangerous journey?

Lin says:

01:00pm | 19/10/10

Fred - now that you mention ‘that there was no other way for family reunion’, you in fact admitted that these so called ‘refugees’ are in fact bypassing the very harsh family reunion (and other) immigration processes.

Do you know that if a former migrant to Australia doesn’t happen to have $60,000+, his/her parents have to wait for more than 20 years!! before they can be ‘reunited’ with their children. The other rule is that more than half of the children have to be living in Australia.
http://www.immi.gov.au/migrants/family/parent-visa-processing-priorities.htm

“I welcome Gillard ... valuing families.” Is this so, Fred?

Migrants who have come here legally submit to these harsh rules, but thanks to the support and constant lobbying by people like you these freeloading ‘refugees’ bypass all these requirements and therefore never learn to value the free gift they were given of living in this great country.

Fred says:

11:15pm | 19/10/10

Tim, If refugees who came in the 1999-2001 wave had been granted permanent protection as they ultimately were, and not the discriminatory 3 year Temporary Protection Visa, the women and children on the SIEVX could have been sponsored under refugee family reunion and come safely. Among the current arrivals are people who have been assessed to be refugees needing resettlement, but because we took an average of only 80 persons a year from the growing UNHCR caseload in Jakarta, desperate people denied employment there and denied education for their children took the risk of taking a boat. That was avoidable had we chosen to resettle more.  The rejection rate for humanitarian visas - often relatives in refugee-like circumstances must be running at 90% or more for Hazara stuck in Pakistan and Iran where they are illegal, having fled a dangerous Afghanistan With borrowed money, some of them seek asylum. An increased quota for humanitarian visas would head off some boat journeys. Tim, if the conditions are dangerous enough, and even if survival on a boat journey is known to be 50-50, desperate asylum seekers still take the risk. Dying at home is so often the alternative.
Lin, refugees/humanitarian entrants are in a different competition for visas than immigrants. We settle refugees for humanitarian reasons and select immigrants in the national interest. Sadly, parents are regarded as not contributing and as a potential burden to Australia - and that is bipartisan policy. Refugee family reunion applies to dependant family only and widowed mothers, sisters and sisters in law are sadly excluded.

notsurprised says:

12:27pm | 19/10/10

Well put Shane. The Greens are a total sell out as we’ve all seen and typically they are no longer an individual party standing for what they believe but have become another small player vying to meet their own agendas. If they truly believed in their cause they would have stood their ground and not merged with the ALP. At last we’ve seen their true colours and motivations.

stephen says:

01:02pm | 19/10/10

You’re a bit shrill, mate.
(Been listening to Angela Merkel, have you ?)
Well we are not like Europe, and we do things differently.
Multiculturalism is still valued here, and the method of its transmission is important, especially, though not exclusively, if we want a seat on the UN.

Faye says:

05:42pm | 19/10/10

I do believe Eric and Denny have hit the nail on the head. If the people were forewarned, BEFORE they planned to leave their country, that any boat people caught trying to enter Australian waters illegally, would be immediately returned to their country and that it would cost them any chance of entering Australia, through legal channels, it would solve the problem. Our government needs to really take a real hard line, with these people. After all, this is illegal and if I did something illegal, our government would be quick to send me to jail, so where is the difference.

marley says:

06:22pm | 19/10/10

Actually, it’s quite possible to have a discussion on refugee policy without having to invoke either invading hordes or nazis.  By Godwin’s law, you’ve just lost the argument.

James1 says:

01:04pm | 20/10/10

It is not illegal under Australian law, or international law for that matter, Faye.  You are entirely wrong about that.

Also, it would be morally wrong to send people to their deaths, and I for one would want no part in such a policy, because as a conservative I actually value all human life.

james says:

04:08pm | 01/05/11

This is what happens as soon as someone is against he the the flood of so called refuges or imagration your a nartzie.

Marilyn says:

01:06am | 21/10/10

What a jerk off.  Better to leave the kids behind to be blown to bits in our war hey?

And it is we who lock them up and torture them after their parents think they have reached safety.

I have read the comments here and you fucking arseholes make me sick with your ignorant hate and drivel.

One day I hope you need help, I will turn away.

Gregg says:

11:54am | 20/10/10

You can be abusive to others all you like M but that just makes you a bigger fool than what you are.
Australia has no problem with true refugees and look up the Immigration data on how the refugee programs work.
Then look at UNHCR data on where refugee centres are established, there being around 27M refugees around the planet in UNHCR and other NGO centres including Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India and if you ever get to some you will see that they do not have a lot going for them and are likely far worse of than the predominantly young healthy males that arrive courtesy of people smugglers and by air.
They should all be funnelled through the UNHCR structure so the most needy get helped.
By pandering to people wanting to jump the queue, be it by boat or plane, we are not helping those that need help most and then there is also the flow on effect to people with skills who want to immigrate and the resources being sucked up because of people smuggling is causing normal visas to be delayed as well.

That is what you cannot seem to fit between your ears dear and it is more than just being a fool that you do not care for those desperately suffering and dying in refugee centres in many countries.
So who is the jerk and who is the abusive foul mouthed whinger?

You are a sickening very ignorant thing.

Fred says:

03:15pm | 20/10/10

thatmosis, take a deep breath. Ever thought where you - you personally- would be if the First People of Australia had said in 1788   that Christian charity begins at home so take your cargo of convicts and gsoldiers back to Mother England ? My local Aboriginal elder says refugees are welcome here - and identifies closely with the dispossession and persecution they have suffered.

Tim says:

03:48pm | 20/10/10

Fred,
and look what happened to the Aboriginal people when they let in boatload after boatload.
How’s their civilization doing now?

Fred says:

03:32pm | 20/10/10

Youdy Beaudy, what common sense you write. Locking up anyone who has not been charged with a crime is wrong. Locking up children is unlawful and obscene and we must never do it. If only more people would put themselves in the position of asylum seekers and their families we would not have 738 children in detention today. We would want someone in a foreign land to be kind to our teenage sons whom we had to send away or lose them to the brutal Taliban.  How sad is that. Of the 738 children in detention, 382 are Unaccompanied Minors -kids who came alone-  and Minister Chris Bowen is their legal guardian. Come on, Dad, we want you to take better care of these kids!

Fred says:

03:08pm | 20/10/10

No comparison, Weary of Whingers.  Weary Dunlop was an elite professional soldier not a civilian. As a prisoner of war he’d be detained until the end of the war and have the comfort of knowing fellow soldiers were fighting for his release. He’s know that his wife and extended family were safe and provided for.  Immigration detainees have no such certainty - their deprivation of liberty is INDEFINITE their separation from family indefinite.  That uncertainty rather zaps motivation, peace of mind, concentration, healthy sleep etc.
BUT among the detainees in immigration detentions, some are learning to read and write English, and learn computing .
Sadly families with children are now separated from the men who came alone, so no distraction of playing with and teaching children for the 700 single men in Curtin, on Christmas Island and 300 soon to be in isolated Weipa, N Qld. . Check out U Tube “Freedom or Death” by film maker Elliot Spencer - the story of one Afghan who did what you think Weary Dunlop would have done.