Elisabeth Badinter is variously described as a philosopher, an elite professor, “a doyenne of French intellectual thought”, and an archaeo-feminist (whatever that means). She’s sure to be called a lot worse as her new book, Conflit, is translated and sold around the world.

You can almost hear the angels singing!

Badinter is a French woman who argues the following points:

  • That women are losing the freedom they have gained in recent decades because of the pressure to be a perfect mother – because they are now enslaved to their “tyrant” children.
  • That home births and breastfeeding and other natural processes are mistakenly portrayed as a wiser and more authentic way of mothering.
  • That the ecological movement is part of the problem, because its disdain for disposable nappies, pre-packaged food, and other modern marvels are forcing women to again be chained to the house once they have children.

She says, in short, that babies have become “the best ally of masculine domination.”

She does sound a little like a delightfully bitter old bint hoping to palm off more copies of her book by intentionally outraging the masses.

But she makes quite a few good points.

We all know people who are slaves to their children. God knows there are far too many parents who insist their obnoxious youngster is an angel, their dullard son is a genius, their poo-finger-painting daughter is a budding artiste. Who give up all their adult pleasures to make little Johnny happy.

And of course there are sanctimonious and judgemental folk out there who take pride in the amount of pain they suffer during childbirth, who relish cooking everything from biodynamic, organic scratch, and who relentlessly deride those who choose to take a few shortcuts.

But there have always been and will always be parents and children who are pains in the proverbial. All the rest of us can do is avoid them at all costs….

... only that’s not really possible.

Because the moral righteousness is infectious. It has spread through society like a virus, little guilt molecules that you cannot help but inhale.

I’m not a clucky sort of person. At all, as it happens. But I am now of a certain age where people who barely know me suggest I should get moving and get pregnant (a suggestion I promise to respond to one day with a tragic face and the retort that, unfortunately, I lost my womb in a bizarre fishing accident).

So every now and then I think about what it would be like to have a kid. And the feeling that swiftly follows that thought is a warm flood of gratitude for the contraceptive pill.

Because I couldn’t do it the “right” way.

I’d probably sneak a couple of glasses of wine while preggo.

I would want epidurals (can you get a general anaesthetic?), and an elective caesarean. I would want a nanny and whatever nappies are easiest. If I couldn’t get a babysitter I would take the kid to parties and leave it in the host’s bedroom where its cries could not be heard.

As for co-sleeping – it’s dangerous and that’s a good enough reason for me to take the selfish route and say ‘never!’.

I’d refuse to pay for gadgets and widgets (or expensive hand-crafted toys), and the kid (once I weaned it off the formula bottle) would have to make do with whatever I was making for dinner. Maybe I’d go a bit easy on the chilli.

I’m sure (or rather, I’m assured) that if you just have a kid you’ll love it. Love is not the issue. Elevating a child to godlike status is the issue.

So. I couldn’t be a good mother, in fact I’d be a bad mother. And in that case, I’d rather not be a mother at all.

Just as well I’m not even clucky.

104 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Eric says:

      06:12am | 18/06/10

      ‘She says, in short, that babies have become “the best ally of masculine domination.” ‘

      Actually it’s the other way around. Once a man becomes a father - or even the partner of a woman who bears another man’s child - he becomes legally responsible for supporting the mother. His property and future earnings are forfeit at the whim of sexist family courts. At any moment, his life can be ruined by the mere accusation of abuse.

      Children have become feminist tools of exploitation, and the exploited are men.

    • lol says:

      08:25am | 18/06/10

      You’re such a troll Eric

    • L. says:

      09:36am | 18/06/10

      Actually no, Eric is correct.

      I was once the hsuband of a woman who had two daughters to her pervious hubby. Upon our divorce I discovered that in the absense of the girls father, it was ME, the unrelated STEP-father who was liable for the fiscal support of the girls. Although it didn’t come to that, it is in the back of my mind for next time.

    • Adam Diver says:

      09:49am | 18/06/10

      How do you always get the first comment??? Do you know the exact minute of publication??

    • Maternally yours says:

      12:51pm | 18/06/10

      I left my children at Taronga Park, they were returned many years later by a kindly chimp as members of the labor party

    • WEML says:

      01:16pm | 18/06/10

      What if the mother earns more than the new father/partner????

      Eric, you gotta open your mind dude….there’s a whole wide world out there full of mother/breadwinners, father/carers and everything in between. 

      There are also step-parents who would gladly support their step kids after a breakup.

      So narrow-minded Eric.  So insular and fearful.

    • Davida says:

      01:34pm | 18/06/10

      I have been wondering if “Eric” is in fact the creation of the Punch team?    Examine the evidence.
      - “He” is a hard worker in an “essential” industry and yet is constantly available for comment, almost instinctively knowing the exact minute of publication.
      - “He” nearly always gets first comment, easier if he is on staff I imagine.
      - If an item doesn’t inspire comment, “Eric’s” comments are guaranteed to generate a 25% increase in responses, admittedly to “him” personally.
      “His” comments used to alarm me until I clicked it was someone having a lend.  I mean no-one could honestly say the things he says and expect to be taken seriously.
      So Punch team, is he the work of one or many?  Do you take turns to be “Eric”?  Do the female and left-leaning staff also get a turn?
      I commend you all…...“Eric” is comment gold.
      PS.  “Eric” claiming you actually exist, or being able to substantiate your claim will do nothing to change my opinion whatsoever….......“Eric” taught me that.

    • Nicole says:

      01:57pm | 18/06/10

      @Davida, I’ve never considered that, but you may be on to something. Ok Punch Team, fess up. Is Eric real or not?

    • Eric says:

      06:03pm | 18/06/10

      Sad to hear about your case, L, but I’m glad it turned out for the best. Still, many men are not so fortunate.

      Even worse, if a woman cheats on her husband and bears another man’s baby, the husband is held legally responsible for “child support”! This isn’t just a hypothetical - in Australia and America, court decisions have forced men to pay their partners for giving birth to another man’s child.

    • Alex says:

      07:13pm | 18/06/10

      Eric,  I have read many of your comments and find that you have never said one nice thing about women.  Everything is always negative with you. Feminists ruined your perfect 1950’s dream world. And you always divert the conversation to being about something totally different so you can rant about about something unrelated, much like todays comment….

    • Beck says:

      08:35pm | 18/06/10

      Yawn. Your trolling is getting boring Eric. We’ve heard all this before.

    • Eric says:

      10:30am | 19/06/10

      WEML, I am well aware of the whole wide world out there.

      I am simply drawing people’s attention to aspects of that world which are under-reported in the mainstream media. That clearly upsets some commenters.

    • bec says:

      02:46pm | 19/06/10

      I don’t know about you guys, but every time I read one of Eric’s posts I just want to go out and actively oppress a man. Any man.

      He makes me want to steal their junk mail and use all their cheap pizza vouchers. He makes me want to park my car just 30cm over the driveway boundary to any random man’s house. He makes me want to go into a men’s clothing shop and swap all the size tags on the clothes so that customers can have a momentary rush of low self esteem. All because of him!

    • J says:

      03:02pm | 19/06/10

      Rubbish.  When I escaped my violent ex husband, I was the one left with nearly $100K in debt which he ran up in my name, much of it behind my back and the little I knew about, only done by using violence to get me to sign loans of which he took all the money and blew it on drugs and cars which he then smashed without insurance.
      In dividing the assets/debts - he walked away with the only asset (98% of our superannuation as due to complex reasons, 98% of our super was in his name despite us working equally - me more if you include that I was also studying full time AND doing all the housework and childraising as well as casual paid work, same as him) so he got the only asset of the marriage and I got the entirety of the debt - of which was all his debt (even debts he acquired before we even started dating).

      Despite the fact that I was studying to be a doctor when we married but due to injuries he gave me I am not unable to work at all, but (as due to his mental illness no charges were laid) I get no compensation for my injuries and live on a disability pension.  He now works full time for six months a time (however long each time it takes the child support agency to locate his work) before quitting and getting a new job.
      The CSA even allowed him to drop the child support payments (that he isn’t even paying) down from $17 a fortnight to $14 a fortnight because some other woman claims her child is…. he earns around $50,000 a year and refuses to pay a meagre $14 a fortnight to his only real child.

      Due to a mistake at legal aid,despite qualifying for spousal support, I also missed out.

      So don’t give me this rubbish about it being the other way around - family courts ARE sexist, but they now favour men.  Even incredibly violent men, including those convicted of bashing little children, can get shared custody of their kids.  A woman can be forced to give up a lucrative by her husband, but if they split, he walks away with the assets, she gets saddled with the debts, while he has a good job and she is unable to work.

      And “his life can be ruined by the mere accusation of abuse”???? are you dreaming? my ex husband was convicted of bashing our daughter in the head as hard as he could just after her 5th birthday because she asked him to stop yelling and swearing at her after he got home from an all night drug and alcohol binge (and because I tried to protect her, he beat the living daylights out of me), and despite the fact he was charged for the assault on both of us and he plead guilty in court and was convicted of it, as far as the family court was concerned, his vicious assault on our daughter (and the fact that I was already throwing him out because I’d found his stash of kiddy porn on our computer a few days earlier) didn’t make him a bad father.

      Even convicted paedophiles have been known to get shared custody of their young children.  Even when abuse is proven and extreme, the family courts will grant dads shared custody.

      Sorry Eric, but your misogynist views are no longer the current state of affairs in our family court system.  Ten years ago you may have been right, but these days it’s mothers that no right and kids are fodder of a system that rewards violent, abusive dads and punish the women who just want to protect their kids.

    • J says:

      03:24pm | 19/06/10

      I forgot one other thing…. you really think it’s the man who is vulnerable?  Check out the CSA calculators…

      If a man has his kid every second weekend and half the holidays (which averages out over the year at more than four nights a fortnight if he has the kid friday night and returns them monday morning), according to the child support agency, he has EQUAL shared custody. If they have an equal income, no child support is paid by either party. 

      If both parents work monday to friday, 8 hours a day, the father has NO childcare costs, the woman has to organise childcare 10 days a fortnight.

      As the woman has the kids for school time she ends up with the entire cost of schooling (which any parent knows is huge, even if your kids go public), entire cost of after school activities, and the entire cost of regular medical expenses (and the majority of emergency expenses).

      In addition, because weekend activities like sport, involve a commitment to go EVERY weekend, usually one parent ends up paying the full cost, and that’s nearly always the parent who has the kid the majority of the time.

      So basically, “shared” “equal” custody can leave one parent with more than 95% of the costs of raising the child and not getting a cent of child support.

      It gets even worse.  In that arrangement of “shared” custody, (which my ex was originally seeking) if I was able to return to working three days a week (against doctors orders), according to the CSA calculator, if he quit his job it works out that I’d have had to PAY child support despite me having 99% of the costs of raising our daughter and him only having her every second weekend.

      Not only that, my net income (after tax) less child support would be LESS than what he’d get on the dole plus child support. ie HE’D GET MORE MONEY TO BE A DOLE BLUDGER AND HAVING HIS DAUGHTER EVERY SECOND WEEKEND THAN I’D GET WORKING AND HAVING MY DAUGHTER MOST OF THE TIME.

      and that’s without even taking into account the costs of working, especially childcare.

      And you claim family courts favour men? what rubbish.

      Admittedly, the child support system has made the bias no longer gender specific - it just happens to punish greatly the parent who does the majority of the caring for their child which is the woman in he majority of cases. ie the system in most casses punishes women and rewards deadbeat fathers.

      seriously eric, you have no idea what the reality of the situation of child support.

    • Former snag & Swinging Voter. says:

      06:03pm | 19/06/10

      @ Eric, correct as usual. The Article about the new book is interesting.

      Of Course we both know that the purpose of Fe"Man"Nazism, all along always was, Depopulation in Modern, Western, Democracies. That it was invented by CARS, Communist, Anarchist, Radical, Socialists to “White Ant” our culture from within.

      http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8630135369495797236#

    • Eric says:

      10:51am | 20/06/10

      J, even if true, your story only reflects one individual’s experience.

      Statistically, the vast majority of custodial parents are women, and the vast majority of paying parents are men.

    • Marie says:

      12:48pm | 20/06/10

      J., I had a similar experience with the Family Court. In my experience it’s very weighted towards the rights of men, often at the expense of women and children’s safety. I hope things are much better for you and your kids now. All the best.

    • te says:

      06:41am | 18/06/10

      Sounds like you’d be a great mother. If you followed these rules (which you’d probably soften in reality - more for your sanity than anything) you’d turn out good kids. Letting kids fend for themselves is the best way to go. Let me add political correctnesss is also a pain for mothers, leading to kids with no sense of humour. And homework sucks.

    • dw says:

      03:50pm | 19/06/10

      i agree. People that get all warm and fuzzy at the prospect of parenthood tend to be let down by the reality - and then spend 18 years trying to ‘perfect’ the reality - at the expense of the kids!

      As a parent - the best thing you can do for your child is to stay out of the way.

    • Ellen Jones says:

      05:37pm | 19/06/10

      I totally agree. I do all of those “bad” mother things and I reckon I’m an awesome mother.

    • bec says:

      07:26am | 18/06/10

      She makes intelligent points; I see it happening all the time. There are some women who sacrifice their souls for their kids, doing their assessment, making excuses for them, letting them stay home for bogus reasons (like letting them skip school to watch a hole getting dug in the backyard for a pool… what kind of moron would actually do that?), and doing all their kids’ chores because they think that the amount of effort they put in makes them the perfect parent. The kids don’t always turn out nicer for it: they turn out entitled to demand that their mums do all their work for them, they get resentful of teachers and employers who expect them to work and be responsible for their actions, and they go on to be dropouts with no resilience. Only this week I’ve been berated by a mother for failing her son for plagiarism. Her response? “I worked really hard on that for him!” It’s his work - he should be doing it on his own!

      I do say all this as someone who had a stay-at-home mum who tried to do everything to make her be seen as the perfect mum. To be honest, it just wasn’t that great, from a kid’s perspective: we were never really close when I was young, I was irritated at having no personal space of my own, and when I left home at eighteen I was armed with virtually no skills. I sometimes envy the independence my boyfriend had, as the child of a single mother. I can appreciate the sacrifices she made, but I am not convinced that this way of parenting is right or appropriate.

      Staying home with young kids is great. Subsuming your identity into theirs and living through them because you find the world too hard, and want your kids to have it easy, is pathetic.

    • dena says:

      09:15am | 18/06/10

      bec - you and I must have had the same mother! I love my mum dearly, but she did try to live up to some 1950’s stereotype of a mum who was ALWAYS THERE - it was suffocating at times, and I can’t in all honesty say she looked particularly happy. She had no self esteem, and believed that there was no point even trying to get a job (because she was ‘old’ - and I mean 35 - and couldn’t compete on the job market).  She didn’t try to live though me, but I did feel like she didn’t have a life of her own. Ironically, once I was an adult she decided she would go out to work, and she quickly rose through the ranks. She now has a strong career, her own money, professional respect - all the things she didn’t have while I was young, and which I believe, looking back, would have helped to make her a happier person.

    • hugh says:

      07:28am | 18/06/10

      Very easy solution - if you dont want them, dont have them

      But, if you choose to have them, you treat them as best you can. If you’re not doing the best you can - see the first sentence.

      This really isnt that hard to understand

    • Anne71 says:

      12:39pm | 18/06/10

      Hugh, that’s one of the most sensible comments I’ve seen on the whole “To breed or not to breed” debate.  And it’s not hard to understand at all, BUT - there is so much pressure out there for women to have children, from the media right down to friends and family. It’s implied, if not often stated, that you are somehow a failure, or “not a real woman”, if you don’t have a baby.  I wonder if these people stop and think about whether it’s really a good idea for someone who doesn’t actually want children to have them just to gain the approval of society? It’s not something you can try for a few months and then decide it’s not for you. If you have a child, you’ve got them for the next 18 years at least.  And if that entire time you are resenting them for all the work and sacrifice they entail - or worse, not bothering to put in any work or sacrifice at all - then that’s one unhappy human being you’re raising. And they don’t deserve it. The answer is simple - leave having children to those who really want to, and if people like Tory (and me!) are honest enough with themselves to acknowledge that they aren’t Mum or Dad material, then respect them for that rather than judge them.

    • deb quinn says:

      07:43am | 18/06/10

      my kind of lady!good on you a little bit of honest speaking.hello real world?can you hear the truth when it hits you in the face?me for one i avoid parents? with spoilt brats like the plauge.my kids grew up in the late 70`s 80`s and somehow managed to survive a Normal household,one in which the parents ruled not the kid.bring back the bottom smack and the word NO.and have a baby luv,you are the best kind of mother.

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      08:11am | 18/06/10

      Elisabeth Badinter sounds more like someone who hates being female

    • Julatron says:

      04:19pm | 18/06/10

      Or someone who has blinkered point of view. She’s heiress to a massive fortune so of course the cost of disposables and jarred food is of no concern. As is the environment apparently - a masculine conspiracy? LOL give me strength! Actually, according to her, even the children are of no concern (which makes you wonder why you would bother having them in the first place).

      No, Badinter even seems put out that women are asked to quit smoking while pregnant! (Never mind, this also applies to the male partner in the equation and is based on solid medical reasoning) and that the ‘attachment parenting’ she derides is also based on evidence of best mental wellbeing for mother AND child - LONG TERM (not just while babies). Her ‘ideals’ are funnily enough more in common with Post-Natal Depression than coping with the demands of raising emotionally stable soon-to-be adults.

      Badinter is clearly trying to stir up the hornets nest to try and gather some spot light to counter her dwindling career and academic relevance.

    • persephone says:

      08:30am | 18/06/10

      Let me assure you that all of that changes if you do have children.

      I went from “Oh, these strawberries are nice. I’ll hide them in the back of the fridge where no one else will see them’ to ‘Oh, these strawberries are nice. I’ll mash them all up and feed them to the baby.”

      It didn’t arise out of an idea that by doing so I’d be a good mother (in fact, I probably gave the kid nappy rash, all that acid…). It’s just an automatic, instintive response.

      It can be weird; one part of you looks longingly at the choice tidbit you’re handing over to junior, but you simply can’t not do it.

      And I breastfed. And I had them sleeping in my bed (how sensible is that? You don’t even have to wake up to feed them…and the dangers are easily avoidable..) And I took them absolutely everywhere with me (how do kids learn how to behave at meetings and parties and dinners if you don’t?)

      It’s all actually easier than the alternatives. Have you ever seen a mother on a road trip, desperately begging Maccas for some boiling water to sterilise a bottle? You don’t have to pack your breasts, you can’t accidentally leave an important bit of equipment behind, you don’t have to muck around with making sure things are sterilised and at the right temperature….

      And the same with co sleeping. The alternative is your baby waking, becoming so frustrated that it begins to cry loudly enough to wake you, you having to wake up, get out of bed, totter down the hallway, settle a now distressed baby, feed it (and if we’re talking bottles, that means more delay and a more distressed child), settle it, and go back to bed and sleep yourself.

      Co sleeping means the baby makes a small noise, you give it the breast, and both of you go back to sleep. Neither of you have to fully wake up (in fact, when they get a little older, they latch on themselves without you necessarily waking up at all), neither of you have been unsettled, and both of you sleep much better than otherwise.

      And none of that means they become spoilt, or are indulged. It does mean that they feel secure (less problems with separation anxiety), which actually saves a lot of hassles later.

      But if you don’t want them, don’t have them. If you do, and you do, you’ll find that the unselfish bit isn’t a problem at all.

    • bella starkey says:

      10:55am | 18/06/10

      Babies don’t appreciate quality. What a waste of strawberries.

    • Helen says:

      10:42am | 21/06/10

      Persephone, I’m not sure how long ago your babies were babies, so you probably know this already, but once they hit teenagerhood you’ll be hiding the strawberries again (as well as the chocolate, and your favourite tops.)

    • rehandra says:

      08:34am | 18/06/10

      I was ahead of my time choosing to NOT have children (born 1945).

      NEVER have I regretted that decision, never!

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      09:11am | 18/06/10

      Isn’t choice wonderful! but in saying that becoming a dad for the first and second time, there is no other love like the love you have for your children and all that comes with that. While I respect your choice, you will never know what you have really missed. That’s the wonderful thing of having a choice.

    • Ryan says:

      09:56am | 18/06/10

      Sounds like it!

    • Ripa says:

      01:59pm | 18/06/10

      I feel sorry for you rehandra,you say that you were ahead of your time, as if to say you believe you accomplished something by not having kids. Weird logic.

    • Proudly Nullagravida says:

      02:20pm | 18/06/10

      ‘Tis better to have not known what I have missed than to made the decision to have kids and regretting that and those children.

      Rob, while I respect your opinion, you have to be gently reminded that the joy you feel as a parent is *your* joy, *your* own perception, *your* own understanding. I know that I like anchovies but, at the same time, I *do* understand that there are other people who do not like them and I am not going to patroninsingly tell them that they do not know what they are missing.

    • Stephanie says:

      02:32pm | 18/06/10

      rehandra, good for you! it must have been hard with everyone questioning your decision… did your mum ever? lol cause my parents told me flat out they were fine if they were never grandparents… but ppl often tell me I should have one to make my parents happy!?!?! my happiness should make my parents happy… not me bringing a child into this world that’s not wanted.

      RRC, we’ll never know what we missed but I’m sure you won’t know what you missed by not having them either… smile the freedom, independence and focussing on what makes you happy… tis bliss!

    • Robert Smissen Rural SA says:

      03:39pm | 18/06/10

      Whilst I’m the father of 4 Australans I respect the stance that you took. So often women are pressured by their mother or mother-in-law to have kids only to resent them later. I often wonder are these the the mothers screaming at their kids at the school gates after school? ? If that’s how they carry on in public, can you imagine the abuse when they get home away from prying eyes? I shudder to think! !

    • katie says:

      12:06pm | 19/06/10

      I don’t really know anyone who has actually regretted having children!!

    • Vic says:

      12:37pm | 20/06/10

      It’s amazing how defensive and antagonistic some people get when a woman says this out loud. The reality is that having kids does impose burdens and constraints on women in particular. I’m a parent, but I understand perfectly if a woman would rather not go down that road.

    • Margaret Bray says:

      08:55am | 18/06/10

      As soon as my two children could understand they were taught to do for themselves.  If they didn’t know how, all they had to do was ask, they were shown and as long as they tried their best I was happy.  If they broke something by accident it was no big deal.  Let kids get dirty, hurt or just be kids.  Mine didn’t have the latest game machines, they had to entertain themselves.  When friends came over they didn’t like that we didn’t have a game machine and had to go play outside.  If the 240 goes out some kids have no idea what to do.  My daughters friend ask her one day how she knew so much.  Her reply, “I read books.”  From an early age it was one thing they had was to read.

    • Robert Smissen Rural SA says:

      03:47pm | 18/06/10

      Margaret Bray, snap! ! ! My kids weren’t allowed inside unless it was raining or dark. In the back yard they had a monkey bar, chin-up bar , trapeze, Roman rings, 2 swings, a 2 seater swing, a trampoline & a cubby. They were encouraged to play sport, read etc. Despite the fact that they came from a broken home they all turned out OK. My daughter’s kids live under the same rules and are thriving at school. Parenting is like anything else, the more you do the more that comes back to you. I still have the mother’s day card my then 9yo son gave me, he is now a fine young man of 27 & a great dad.

    • Eliza says:

      09:03am | 18/06/10

      I am the mother of an 8 week old baby.  I had him via caeserian, by choice, and it was fabulous!  Why suffer more than you need to?
       
      I too have felt the disapproval of the Nazi Mums, who see motherhood as a competitive sport - they need to get over themselves. Some points this author makes are certainly valid.

      My baby is so far healthy, happy and well cared for - we love him to pieces.  However, we do make sure we take time out for ourselves, and we are determined to keep our identities as indiiduals, rather than just as parents.

    • Bris Mum says:

      09:05am | 18/06/10

      Tory, you would be a great mother. You should ignore the baby-brigade and do some historical research. I got my hands on a book (Child sense; a pediatrician’s guide for today’s families, by William E. Homan, published 1969) that has been my bible. Basically, it says look after yourself and raise kids that can cope. I now have 4 well-adjusted kids (aged 9 to 18) who understand life, humour, and hard-work.  I was never clucky for babies, but the chance to have kids to share your whole life with is truly a blessing.

    • Luke says:

      09:08am | 18/06/10

      I dont know why women can’t just BE women…
      Lines like…  children are “the best ally of masculine domination.” 
      I mean seriously, just cause some women feel “guilt tripped” into having kids doesnt mean it MEN ‘guilt tripping” you…
      I mean women have bodies entirely designed for having kids… Do you think “guilt” also is perhaps mother nature?
      I say, if you feel guilty, DEAL WITH IT…
      If you dont, good for you…

    • N says:

      12:46pm | 21/06/10

      Luke, I totally agree with you. As a woman who doesn’t not want children, the pressure to have them comes from the women we know (and don’t) of all ages. The men don’t say much. Even if they disagree, at least they can mind their own business.

    • DJ says:

      01:12pm | 21/06/10

      doesn’t not want children?????? please clarify

    • AdamC says:

      09:11am | 18/06/10

      As someone with no kids, I think I agree with our French archaeo-feminist. (Which, I imagine, is a slightly more modern version of a paleo-feminist.)

      Short-cuts rock generally (except pre-packaged food, which should be fed only to animals) and society has become ridiculously judgemental about parenting. If you want to bottle-feed, sure - who cares! If you want (like Persephone) to co-sleep with the babies - knock yourself out! Parenting seems to have become some sort of idelogical battleground of late, which is ridiculous. (At least when we have socialist incompetents doing their best to wreck the country as we speak.)

      Let the baby have its bottle (or breast) and let the people who actually have the children decide how to raise them.

    • Elphaba says:

      09:21am | 18/06/10

      (a suggestion I promise to respond to one day with a tragic face and the retort that, unfortunately, I lost my womb in a bizarre fishing accident).

      I am so using that excuse when the relos ask me at my brother’s wedding when am I going to get a move on and get married and have children.

      Gold!

      Great article.  I completely agree.  I’d do all those things the same way, and in addition, I’d probably dump them on a baby-sitter or the first available homeless person the next time my favourite band or Broadway show came to town.

      I’m thinking I’m destined to be a pet owner, and an Aunty.  The nieces and nephews, I can hand back.  The pets, I don’t have to educate on drugs or STI’s, or supervise them on the computer, they won’t steal money out of my wallet, and won’t complain when I give them the same thing for dinner.

      And I can still go to concerts when the mood takes me.

      Happy Friday, Punchers!

    • persephone says:

      11:05am | 18/06/10

      I advised a friend faced with the same question to put her face in her hands, start fake sobbing, and whisper something along the lines of, “I don’t want to talk about it…’

      I delayed motherhood for 14 years of marriage. Despite the fact that I was a teacher, and that I always answered the question of “Are you going to have kids?” with something along the lines of “I’m not planning to yet.” I found myself labelled as ‘the one who hates children’.

      The fact was that I wanted to wait until I felt we were financially secure - a good decision, in retrospect.

      It was interesting; when I didn’t feel our financial position was secure, I didn’t have the faintest desire to have children. The second it was, my whole attitude changed virtually overnight.

    • Elphaba says:

      12:09pm | 18/06/10

      @persephone

      My parents were married at 20 (way back in the 70s) - prior to them getting married, the older relatives tittered behind their hands and insisted amongst themselves “It wouldn’t last”.

      Then as soon as they were married, everyone started asking them when they were having children.  They waited 5 years before taking the plunge - by this stage, people thought they were having ‘problems’.

      Then when I was born, the question was “When are you having the next one?”

      I don’t think anyone can win!  grin

      My pet peeve?  Going to parties and talking with women who have had babies, and once their conversation was really intelligent and interesting, and now it’s all about toilet training.  No wonder I spend the night at the barbie with the boys instead!

    • persephone says:

      01:15pm | 18/06/10

      Elphaba

      my sister was at home with her first baby.

      When her husband came home one evening, she told him that the baby had done a funny green poo.

      He said he wasn’t really interested (strangely enough).

      “But that was the most interesting thing that happened to me all day!” she said.

    • Elphaba says:

      01:35pm | 18/06/10

      @persephone

      Yep, exactly.  My idea of hell. hmmm

    • Nicole says:

      02:09pm | 18/06/10

      I’ve spent most of the day wondering why I had children. How can a 17yo continuously argue with a 4yo over the TV? Then there’s the 20yo who needs MORE money for the broken car. I’m sure that when the me, me 20 & 17 yo are at a friends houses tonight, little miss 4 is sound asleep, all warm and cute, I’ll feel much better. In the mean time, that pack of Valium is looking very appealing.

    • Julatron says:

      04:26pm | 18/06/10

      Urgh. A dog-tragic or mad cat lady is a much scarier thing than your average proud mother! A child can come with your on your holiday and be toilet trained in 2 years or less. A dog will be p*ssing and cr*pping on your lawn for 14 years! smile

    • Proudly Nullagravia says:

      09:45pm | 18/06/10

      Pffft Julatron! Children are for people who can’t have cats. wink

    • Helen says:

      10:51am | 21/06/10

      Julatron - I’m a mum AND a dog tragic. Be very afraid wink

    • DJ says:

      12:26pm | 21/06/10

      Julatron - dogs can be trained from puppies not to do certain things. and it becomes habbit, children on the other hand sometimes never learn

    • Cathz0r says:

      09:27am | 18/06/10

      All this woman is doing is adding to the selfish culture that we have created for ourselves. People go on and on about refugees taking their lifestyle away. Perhaps if westerners started having more kids, supporting parents, and pregnancy wasn’t an ugly word, then we’d have more western kids to keep our western culture alive.

      I don’t actually hate refugees, quite the opposite, I just think it’s funny how hypcritical people can be.

    • Bitten says:

      01:29pm | 18/06/10

      What?

    • Terry says:

      02:17pm | 18/06/10

      Cathzor, I think you responded to the wrong article and comments, I haven’t read anything about refugees here.

    • Cathz0r says:

      03:40pm | 18/06/10

      I know it’s not about refugees, it just occured to me how hypcritical people can be. For example everyone goes on about having kids ruins your life etc (and Elisabeth Badinter isn’t making it better by writing stupid crap like this) and then wonder why their precious western culture is being overrun. I don’t see any problem with adding another point of view to this article.

    • AF says:

      09:43am | 18/06/10

      Well Tory - i happen to have the same attitude to parenting that you do, except I do have a kid (definitely a surprise as kids were never on my agenda). A seven year old girl. I had the odd glass of wine while pregnant, bottle fed and co-slept. From the time she was eating solids, she pretty much ate whatever i did and even now, there’s not much she wont eat. If I want to go somewhere, she comes with me and knows to behave or it’s the last time it will happen and she’ll be left home with a sitter.

      I work long hours so she pulls her weight in the house. If she doesnt put her dirty clothes in the wash, they dont get washed and she has to live with dirty clothes, she makes her own breakfast and helps with dinner by preparing the vegetables. She can make a batch of muffins on her own if i’m too busy. I love my daughter dearly and always make sure there is one day a week that is devoted to what she wants to do, but she’ll be grown up and gone one day and if I haven’t maintained my own life, where will I be then?

    • YuckyMummy says:

      09:50am | 18/06/10

      if you ever have a kid you will look back and laugh at this story you have written. trust me ....

    • Anne71 says:

      12:58pm | 18/06/10

      Or perhaps she might think “why the hell did I do it?” Not all women enjoy being mothers. One friend of mine admitted to me, when there were no other mums around, that while she loves her kids, if she could go back and make the choice again she wouldn’t have them. She didn’t particularly want to have kids, but the pressure was on from all directions once she got married. And before I get howls of outrage from the doting parents out there saying how awful she is, she’s a great mum to her two girls. They’re happy and well looked after. She’s just honest enough to admit that she could have been just as happy without them.

    • Bitten says:

      01:30pm | 18/06/10

      Oh YuckyMummy, you do condescension so well.

    • James1 says:

      01:53pm | 21/06/10

      Counter-factual analysis Anne71.  Completely invalid.

    • Mandy says:

      10:05am | 18/06/10

      I reckon selflessness improves us. But, like everything, in moderation…

    • Elphaba says:

      02:06pm | 18/06/10

      Motherhood is not the only road to selflessness…

    • Sarah says:

      10:36am | 18/06/10

      You didn’t comment on the extent to which this book reflects the French.  I wouldn’t know for sure, but imagine that the Froggy’s have no idea of a stay-at-home-dad ... although maybe there will be a few after last night’s world cup disaster… certainly the coach would be better off caring for a few camembert-eating toddlers

    • WEML says:

      10:38am | 18/06/10

      Thank God for Elisabeth Badinter and women (and men for that matter) who are thinking and writing outside the square.

      Many women, including myself, love being mothers-we just don’t like the institution of motherhood.  Myths, stereotypes and mediated representations of the ideal mother are difficult to ignore and ‘intensive mothering’ practices have been overwhelmingly adopted (some would argue unwittingly) in most Western cultures. 

      Intensive mothering is a joy to some but a burden to others (men and women alike).  As Badinter argues, biology is not destiny, instead mothering practices (and fathering practices) are socially and historically context specific. 

      As far as I’m concerned a kind of Utopia would exist if women were freed from the expectation to first of all have children and then to dedicate their existence to that child, AND if men were freed from the perpetual burden of producing paychecks- you may argue that times have changed, but really have they?  This kind of emancipation could begin simply by judging others less and doing away with gendered myths and stereotypes. 

      Progressive and inclusive social policies that recognize shared parenting and workforce participation are desperately needed in this country.

    • AF says:

      11:18am | 18/06/10

      what WEML said!

    • Anne71 says:

      12:45pm | 18/06/10

      WEML - best comment yet! And I agree with every word.

    • Bitten says:

      01:31pm | 18/06/10

      Booyah WEML - best comment of the day!

    • Terry says:

      02:20pm | 18/06/10

      Awesome comment

    • kammkat says:

      10:58am | 18/06/10

      some people will hate your comments. I’m a mum but I’m thrilled by your refreshing honesty. I have a career, an ex-husband, a partner and two step-kids, and i’m pregnant and it’s bloody hard but that’s what we signed up for. it’s about tough love in my mind. with the emphasis on love, not indulgence. boundaries, not freedom. you have to get through the day however you can. if it means disposables, frozen fish fingers for dinner and daycare, all it means is that you have a big rubbish bin (don’t start me on all the guilt about contributing to landfill - i believe in global warming but let’s get real and deal with what’s really contributing to it ie. business), your kids eat what’s put in front of them and are socialised from a young age which in my experience has helped with language development, emotional intelligence and toilet-training. there’s no guilt there. plus they watch less tv because they’re not at home all day with their carers who are so exhausted from boiling organic vegetables and washing nappies that the kids are plonked in front of the TV for some peace. oh yeah and for you guys out there who feel so put upon about being the primary breadwinner… i understand that too. but i bet your trade off is that you don’t do much around the house!

    • DJ says:

      11:11am | 18/06/10

      I am not a “perfect mother” or don’t intend to be, I will attempt breastfeeding but if it’s too much work meh, bottle will do. Kid will have chores once it’s old enough, not gadgets until they get a job and earn it other than what I want for myself, no designer clothes, k-mart and BigW are good enough and best and less whatever, processed custard for desert and whatever I am making for tea will be blended in the food processor for bubs once it’s on solids. If their room is not clean whatever is on the floor will be tossed, if clothes aren’t in the laundry they don’t get washed, if they get teased for dirty clothes well then they know what they need to.

      Smack on the bum if they deserve it as a wake up call to safety or bahaviour issues, the word no will be used often.

      I rule my house, not the kid, I am the adult and what I says goes.

    • Elphaba says:

      12:26pm | 18/06/10

      You sounds like my mum.  I turned out fine. grin

    • Kate says:

      11:46pm | 18/06/10

      You sound like my mum too, and my mum was bloody awesome. Our household had similar rules and my sister and I were taught the value of doing household chores. I grumbled at the time, but it’s come in handy since I’ve moved out. I lived with my ex when I first left home, and he’d been mothered very obsessively - he didn’t even know how to switch on a washing machine. I, on the other hand, had been doing chores like washing and ironing since I was about 14. Giving your kids responsibility around the house sets them up so well for later life!

    • iansand says:

      11:17am | 18/06/10

      Planning ahead about bringing up children is a bit like plans for a battle. Neither survive the first encounter with the enemy.

      Just do what seems right.  The kids are going to be a lot better with relaxed (relatively) parents doing what seems right at the time than with stressed out obsessives trying to satisfy other people’s expectations.  Treat it like an adventure and adapt to circumstances as they occur.

    • strawberry says:

      11:29am | 18/06/10

      a lot of these descriptions of motherhood contain a lot of love but no boundaries ... kids need both to grow into well functioning adults!

      As for the natural stuff - homebirths are dangerous and if you have ever had a ceasarian accurately described to you I am sure it would put you off, natural birth in a hospital with an epidural for me! breastfeeding has been proven to be better for babies in most cases but mums can express and/ or use formula to get the balance right for themselves.

      I struggle to see why it has to be home birth and co-sleeping and breastfeeding or the complete opposite - each person needs to find the balance that is best for them and thier baby

    • DJ says:

      01:09pm | 18/06/10

      No see for me I will take the pethadine/morphine injection, I am not anti-drugs in the least but I have issues with a needle in my spinal cord, what if they sneeze?

    • Bon says:

      01:56pm | 18/06/10

      I agree, I doesn’t have to be an all or nothing approach.  We all just need to do what is right for us, and if we change our minds about something so be it.  There are pros and cons to everything.

    • Krist says:

      09:59pm | 18/06/10

      Same. I’ve had a horrible vaginal delivery, an emergency c-section and an elective c-section. My preference is the horrible vaginal delivery.

    • Kate says:

      02:15pm | 24/06/10

      DJ, wishful thinking, I had pethadine injection, then had to use gas - and it still really hurt!

    • julia says:

      11:30am | 18/06/10

      I think I love this French woman more than the one who wrote about being fat.

    • Jasmine says:

      12:00pm | 18/06/10

      I wasn’t going to have children…. but, on the cusp of 30, I thought, what if I regret it? So I went ahead and had my son. The best and worst decision ever. I found motherhood exceeding stressful, even though I did manage to do my own thing. He was not an easy child but has turned out to be a wonderful adult! I don’t regret not having any more kids though.

    • Jasmine says:

      12:02pm | 18/06/10

      I wasn’t going to have children…. but, on the cusp of 30, I thought, what if I regret it? So I went ahead and had my son. The best and worst decision ever. I found motherhood exceeding stressful, even though I did manage to do my own thing. He was not an easy child but has turned out to be a wonderful adult! I don’t regret not having any more kids though.

    • DJ says:

      12:14pm | 18/06/10

      I’m with you, almost 30 and decided to have a bub, single so went IUI.

    • Bon says:

      12:36pm | 18/06/10

      I think as parents we just need to trust our instincts more.  Too many new parents (I was one of them) read every parenting book under the sun, accept it all as gospel and then end up frustrated and confused when the baby doesn’t conform to what the “expert” said.  Modern society has told us that we have no idea - that babies are the enemy, they need to be “tamed”, that they will ruin our lives - none of this is true, and the truth is, we DO know what is right for our children.  Just like all animals, the instinct is there, but we seem to have been taught to ignore it, in favour of what the latest expert and the latest parenting fad has said is the best way.

      I don’t think one can become a parent and not have your life turned upside down.  Things we thought were important before become less so, and we develop new priorities.  Babies change everything, in ways we might not have even considered - and if they seem like a lot of hard work, that’s because they are.  That’s not to say you have to completely lose yourself to your child - that is not good for anyone - but we kinda have to face the fact that for the first little while at least, our own needs will take second place.

      And another thing - I have never understood why there is this perception that having a caesarian is easier than giving birth vaginally - it’s major abdominal surgery for a start, with all the risks that entails, and the recovery time is much longer.

    • Emma says:

      02:52pm | 18/06/10

      Completely agree. Trust your instincts, ask your mum/aunt/grandma/friends/midwife/internet whatever it is you need to know, take the advice with a pinch of salt, filter through it all and do what your gut tells you to do.

      I am also with you on the natural birth thing. I would much rather 12/24/36 hours of labour than major surgery where I am left with a permanent scar and weak abdominal muscles… all I needed to do was to watch a video of it once and watch my SIL recover from it and that was it for me!

    • Anne71 says:

      12:38pm | 21/06/10

      Not that I have any experience either way wink but if I was to have a kid I think I’d only go for the Caesarean if it was the safest option for both of us, ie a natural delivery was too risky. As Bon says, a C-section is major abdominal surgery - surely that’s something you’d want to avoid unless it’s absolutely necessary?

    • Kathrine Grand says:

      01:26pm | 18/06/10

      Yes indeed ‘L’ 9.36 do bear it in mind because you sound uncaring and dismissive about these two children who may have cared for you.  KM

    • carla says:

      01:48pm | 18/06/10

      Any idea on when this is being released?  Dymocks haven’t heard of it and instead I found myself picking up a free issue of Melbourne Child and am about to do a sacrificial burning in the backyard.  I counted at least five reader’s letters patting themselves on the back for providing their children with a greener earth by using cloth nappies, twenty pages of children’s party advertisements and an article patronising women who have c-sections. 

      It’s been refreshing reading other women’s comments today but where are you ladies??  My child is approaching two and I can tell you the world needs more mother’s like this because they’re few and far between.  I have been ostracised by close friends I’ve had for over ten years because I don’t buy into the “parenting is the greatest job in the world” crap or their children are so precious they couldn’t cope when my son went through a smacking phase, (he was 11 months and not about to glass her much older son with his sippy cup). One friend tried telling me her daughter was speaking whole sentences at ten months whilst she was rolling around the floor picking up fluff and eating it.  I find I need work and study just to connect with normal people and this shouldn’t be the case.  I dread the days of school drop offs and kids parties!

    • Krist says:

      09:56pm | 18/06/10

      “One friend tried telling me her daughter was speaking whole sentences at ten months whilst she was rolling around the floor picking up fluff and eating it.”

      Haha! That made me laugh out loud!

    • Amy says:

      02:54pm | 18/06/10

      I think my mum was pretty close to being the perfect mother.  Dad worked a lot so she was the one carting me to and from school, dance, drama and basketball.  She never complained.  She just sat in the audience and cheered.  Great woman.  She even taught me the difference between the singular and the plural.  Consequently I very rarely get ‘is’ and ‘are’ confused, and if I had, I certainly wouldn’t have published it incorrectly in a headline.  Jus’ sayin’.

    • Razor says:

      03:17pm | 18/06/10

      Tory ,  Having read your article I have no doubt you would make a wonderful Mum.  If you are at all interested get yourself a copy of Gina Ford’s “The Contented Little Baby” book.  I call it the New Testament and proseltize to all our friends who say how lucky we are to have kids who sleep well, behave and great to be parents to.  (It ain’t perfect but it is a hell of a lot better than some parents have created for themselves).  I also strongly recommend the Parenting course 1,2,3 Magic.

      We took no notice of the natural birth/breast feeding/no routine nazis.  People say we are just lucky.  That is crap.  We worked hard to achieve the outcomes we have got with our kids.

      When oour first child slept through from 10 pm to 7am at 5 weeks we were told it was just luck of the draw and the next would be different.  When our second slept through from 8 weeks people started to understand that the system works.

      My in-laws will rarely babysit their other grand kids because they won’t go to bed when told and it is a huge battle.  I just have to pick up the phone because they know that after 7.30 pm the kids are in bed asleep, no dramas.

    • Dognuts says:

      03:27pm | 18/06/10

      I drink too much wine to be a good parent….................being broke and half sozzled would disqualify me from the society of genius parents. I think people need to get over the whole parental heroism routine. Our parents raised us fine with bugger all of the conveniences available these days, and they didn’t make themselves martyrs in the process either. Unless you have managed to raise 13 kids in a bark hut in West Africa, I would not consider your parenting feats as being anything other than ordinary

    • Reality Check says:

      05:03pm | 18/06/10

      I disagree with the attitude of using disposables without thinking of the consequences - disposable nappies use tonnes of crude oil to even produce, then they take between 200 to 500 years to decompose, and the chemicals used in them can leach into the surrounding environment, contaminating our water and soil. Considering that each infant can use up to 12 nappies a day, that’s a lot of pollution! We are ALL responsible for the state our earth is in, and using disposable nappies does contribute to the future world that your children will inherit - the nappies they wore as infants may still be decomposing when their great-great grand children (that’s your great-great-great grand children!!) are elderly. I don’t have children and I’m sure it’s not necessarily easy to avoid disposable nappies, but a lot about life isn’t easy, especially raising children. I am very selective about what I eat due to the consequences to the earth and although I don’t find it easy, I feel that it’s the right thing to do for the environment to make a small difference. It’s this widespread selfish refusal to make any compromise regarding our lifestyles that has lead us to where we are today - steadily destroying our environment and therefore eventually ourselves. So many bloggers on here remind me of the people from ‘Wall-E’, just doing “what’s right for you” and not giving a damn about the consequences, not just for humans but for all the innocent species that we walk all over on our way to satisfying our own needs.

    • DJ says:

      05:39pm | 18/06/10

      And I suppose all the water used to wash the cloth nappies is not important? you’re looking at a load a day does that not also affect the environment, especially when you wash with soap?

      It will be many, many years in my grandkids time that they have to concern themselves with a Wall-E environment and by then who knows we may have developed space travel and sent out colonies throughout the stars. I notice no one who is bent on saving the earth never offer the possibility we may be able to spread out into the wide universe ala Dr Who.

    • iansand says:

      06:43pm | 18/06/10

      Look.  It’s not rocket surgery.  Cloth nappies are great when the kid is at home (particularly with a nappy service - the number 1 best gift you can give new parents - thanks Mum).  And disposables are great when you are out and about.  It is not a religion and you do not have to commit to one or the other.  Same with bottles, and a whole lot of other stuff.  Adapt.  Enjoy.  Relax.

    • Bon says:

      08:59am | 19/06/10

      These days you can get really brilliant, absorbent cloth nappies in gorgeous colours and patterns that are made to use just like disposables - you just put them on bub and do them up, no need for plastic covers or pins.  I use a combination of both - ‘sposies are convenient, but clothies are so cute and better for bubs skin, and they really don’t add much to your washing.  A lot of parents don’t even consider cloth nappies these days because they have images of the old terry squares that you have to fold and pin, but cloth nappies have come a long way - I always tell people to at least have a look at what is out there because I know I was surprised when I looked into it and saw how cool cloth nappies are now.

    • OldGirl says:

      09:19am | 19/06/10

      We all have mothers unless you were born in a test tube. Mothering is not an easy job and we all make mistakes. There are things I could condem my mother on and I sure my son would say the same about me. But if you do the best of your ability, thats all I think we can really expect out of anyone. If you run into trouble or are worried call a help line or talk to your doctor, but I am sure you will do brilliantly. Remember above anything give them lots of love, and they will grow up to be assured and confident. The first child is always the learning curve, by the time the second comes along you will know your way very well.

    • Real Mama says:

      04:07pm | 19/06/10

      Thank God for some common sense. Can’t wait to read the book. Children who are raised like mini gods are going to become bloody awful adults. Mothers should be kinder to themselves and toughen up on the kids! If being a mum of two gorgeous girls has taught me one thing it is that.

 

Facebook Recommendations

Read all about it

Punch live

Up to the minute Twitter chatter

Anthony Sharwood

#markwebber just wasted petrol faster than everyone else in monaco #f1

Anthony Sharwood

In my sports column on The Punch tomorrow: why Eurovision was easily the best game on the weekend. Mummy bloggers, you'll like this one!

Daniel Piotrowski

The Logies could learn a lot from Eurovision #lamethings#sbseurovision

Daniel Piotrowski

RT @ellehardytweets: Already despondent about the next fifty one weeks. #sbseurovision

Recent posts

The latest and greatest

Abbott’s crass logic: trash the Parliament in order save it

Abbott’s crass logic: trash the Parliament in order save it

An email was sent to almost every politician in Australia this week saying that someone should cut off…

Our special forces don’t always need special treatment

Our special forces don’t always need special treatment

We admire them, but we’re not entirely sure why. We allow them to operate in the shadows; we rarely…

A good holiday is about unrest, not rest

A good holiday is about unrest, not rest

Like a fat full-stop, it lay in my hand. A small orange – not exactly fresh, but purchased anyway…

Nosebleed Section

choice ringside rantings

From: They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

Michael S says:

"A teacher at Geelong Grammar had criticised her for using words that were too long, which had left her confused and had made her doubt her ability to write essays. She became ''quite distressed'' when her English marks began to fall." I can sympathise. My scholastic mentors conveyed to me a causal relationship… [read more]

From: Welfare for breeders is a bonus for everyone

Change Up! says:

I have no problem paying my taxes. As a single, childless person on a very decent income, I can afford it and not have my life severely altered. Plus I understand that my taxes paying for things like schools, childcare and infrastructure is ultimately a good thing. A better community is better for me… [read more]

Gentle jabs to the ribs

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

A private school girl’s family is sueing her elite, extremely expensive private school for not… Read more

243 comments

Newsletter

Read all about it

Sign up to the free daily Punch newsletter