The sorry business of our growing apology culture

cheap white trash says:

01:48pm | 02/12/12

Come on Gaz you no it’s the right thing to do.

I Apologize on behalf of Capt Cook and all who have followed,
I’M SORRY…...

Now that makes me feel real good….......WAW…...meaning WHAT A WANK.

Glenn says:

07:34pm | 02/12/12

The defence Force is not supposed to be made up of pussies. You weed out the crap before you go to war. You don’t like the training, you sure as hell aint going to like the real game. Say sorry all you like. Sorry for killing the Taliban, say sorry for killing the Germans and the japanese, just sure to be saying sorry when you have no defence force capable of defending you and you’re looking down the barrel of submission, or worse.

wakeupcall says:

07:44am | 02/12/12

Funny, never heard PM Gillard say sorry for not providing compensation to the stolen generation. The U.K. stolen children are seeking compensation, the Catholic child abuse victims will be compensated. The ALP promised a no fault compensation scheme for the stolen generation (remember Kim Beasley weeping in Parliament?) but another broken ALP promise, that few journalists can be bothered writing about.

Toady says:

08:19am | 02/12/12

Jay2 - why are indigenous people, removed from their families to protect their health and welfare, classed as the ‘stolen generations’, yet non-indigenous people removed for the same reason not classed the same?  Forced adoptions involving unwed teenaged mothers - yes, that definitely fits the ‘stolen generations’ tag.  But removed on the grounds of protection from harm?  If the State has no business in protecting the welfare of children exposed to neglect or abuse, lest it be accused of ‘child stealing’, it has no business in protecting the population at all, particularly adults..  In which case, they should withdraw from our lives full stop, and stop the ‘nanny-state’ approach to governance.

jess says:

10:22am | 02/12/12

The stolen generation wasn’t at risk children it was children who were born to an aboriginal mother and European father (in most cases).many cases would have been pregnancy due to rape as well. the children were being brought up in a traditional life life their mothers culture. Remember also that that was against the law for aboriginal mixed race adult relationships until the 1960’s

Gregg says:

12:00pm | 02/12/12

@Jay2
” Re: Stolen generation, it was disgraceful for the reasons and under the circumstances most were removed. However, I have also talked to some members of the ‘stolen generation’ who adamantly maintain if they weren’t removed and put into care, they wouldn’t have survived their childhood, because of alcohol and violence they were enduring. “
Yes, there have likely been many indigenous children and non indigenous children too for that matter removed from family environments for their welfare or concern that appropriate welfare would not occur and that still happens courtesy of state child welfare departments etc. and who often get lambasted for not doing enough or for not doing something promptly to have protected children, a number of infant deaths making the media from time to time.

So putting the stolen generation feelings another way Jay, you would have to say it would have been more disgraceful if children had not been removed and had suufered such mistreatment they may not have survived.
Sure, there would have been all sorts of cases, some more so than others warranting action and do we not need to put into context the numbers of welfare officers available, the limited capacity to undertake individual detailed assessments and how that at the time needed to be weighed against the right of children to have a safe upbringing.

You even look at the intervention policy the Howard government brought in for the NT and drugs, sex, alcohol and abuse of children is pretty much rampant in many communities, there being various state government reports over many years and not much action so full credit to Howard for doing what he could and that in the NT.

If anything, time may show that there are many children to whom an apology should be made for not doing enough and sadly for some it may be too late.

Jay2 says:

12:22pm | 02/12/12

@Toady, I agree, no argument from me there. Your questions and statements to me are valid. Apparently the removal of children is given different labels, depending upon ‘race’. There it’s been said the dreaded “r” word! 
The state does have a duty of care in protecting all children, but I feel are VERY reluctant too in cases of aboriginal children (for more than one reason) but because there is the “racist” & potential for ‘another stolen generation’ to surface, even if the removal of children is done for entirely different purposes. Still those children in the numbers that they are who are at risk, WILL NOT be removed, it’s the too hard basket for them, yet the sexual and physical abuse remains at ghastly high numbers within that community.

Also, it doesn’t help that the latest philosophy from my observations, are the family unit (regardless of race) should be kept together. How else does one explain the advice to drug addicted parents from a key ‘welfare’ agency:  “Bath, feed and change your baby BEFORE taking a hit”. Seriously.
Aboriginal foster children are mostly considered for placement with other Aboriginal families, but foster care is overwhelmed, especially limited with Aboriginal families. The whole state care and foster system has been in crisis mode for a LONG time, in my opinion.
@Jess, yes those identified were removed, but then talking to quite a few “half castes” (their description), they felt in those days they weren’t particularly accepted in ‘white culture’ but were also discriminated in ‘black culture’  and in fact, from verbal statements, they had it worse within the black community, which shocked me actually. I’m sure they don’t presume to speak for everyone, but I can only go on what half a dozen have told me at different times.
Also, from what I have been privvy too, it wasn’t just children with a white father that were removed.

Peter says:

01:05pm | 02/12/12

Wakeupcall: and when did the LNP ever say sorry?

PW says:

01:21pm | 02/12/12

“The ALP promised a no fault compensation scheme for the stolen generation (remember Kim Beasley weeping in Parliament?”

I think you’ll find that the election this promise was made was won by the Liberals under Howard. Thus this promise was rejected by the electorate. It’s a bit rich to expect a subsequent Government to honor a promise made in a losing election campaign.

Jay2 says:

02:12pm | 02/12/12

@Gregg “So putting the stolen generation feelings another way Jay, you would have to say it would have been more disgraceful if children had not been removed and had suufered such mistreatment they may not have survived.”
That’s exactly what I’m saying!

I do, however, believe based on what I’ve been told first hand,that there were aboriginal children removed because of what I perceive racist reasons in those days. I also believe that it is not so pc to acknowledge children were ALSO removed because of what I feel are legitimate reasons, neglect and abuse.

I also believe the Howard Government had at least taken the un-pc approach to tackle this. While it was not perfect, at least it was a start. I’m also the first to acknowledge this is a complex and exceedingly difficult issue.  If the government does something at the same time it is applauded and attacked by Aboriginal and non Aboriginal communities alike.  It is either decried as a racist ‘white fella’ solution or given a ‘thumbs up but long overdue’, still bugger all really ever happens.
One could literally write pages about this subject, but what I feel is that it is so easy to utter the word ‘racism’ and the ‘stolen generation’ is burnt into most people’s consciousness as a hideous part of history, so therefore it would be VERY easy for that term to be used if many Aboriginal children were removed from at risk situations and if anybody has seen such communities I’m referring too, it wouldn’t be just one or two children that I would deem at risk.  It’s bloody sad when you see kids slip into the cycle again and know there’s not a damned thing you can do about it . Again, yes, for me it is politically correct madness (and the financial commitment)that sees most not wanting to touch this situation with a ten foot pole, lest the pc bleeding heart brigade start up.
I am careful to add that I am not saying that I am speaking about ALL Aboriginal communities, but even statistics, not just verbal assertions, will confirm that there is a big problem. It’s a vicious cyle that is given bandaid solutions time and time again. 
Just as with Toady’s post Gregg, I actually agree with what you say in your post, no arguments from me, but I’m trying to limit how much I write about a complex subject.

Mongrel says:

02:30pm | 02/12/12

Jess : there’s never been laws prohibiting marriage between the races in australia. US (and other countries) yes, but never australia. You’re making that up.

Rose says:

03:29pm | 02/12/12

Gregg, many of the problems of drug and alcohol dependence are a direct result of the Stolen Generation. You are talking about an entire generation of children raised outside of a family unit and often in overwhelmingly cruel institutions. These children were then not loved or nurtured, they had no parental role models, many were sexually, emotionally and physically abused and generally treated as lower than second class citizens. Very few were taken into kind families and raised as loved and wanted children, most were taken into families more as slave labour than as children needing love, care and guidance. How the hell are these kids supposed to grow and be parents, they have no real knowledge of what parenting is supposed to look like, they are carrying their own demons afters years, and often, generations of abuse at the hands of the welfare workers. They have little trust in agencies that are meant to help them, why would they trust them, these are the very same agencies that were the perpetrators of the abuse they suffered as children? This is something that has been done to them, this is not their fault. If there is ever going to be real change, that needs to be acknowledged, you can’t overlook the damage done to Indigenous families and communities by the successive governments. Individual families were torn apart and so were entire communities. If they were left with their families and not ‘stolen’ you would see a very different, far more positive Indigenous community right across the board, of that there is absolutely no doubt!!
As for Howard, he should be ashamed of the Intervention, and so should Rudd and Gillard for extending it. The Intervention is a paternalistic, racist and inefficient way to deal with the issues. A study was done that dealt with the real issues facing Indigenous communities, particularly child protection issues, and what did Howard do but ignore the considered recommendations of those that did the study and do what Australian governments have tried and failed at for two centuries, taking over and dictating to Indigenous communities, treating them as less than the rest of us. The Intervention has failed and has, in many areas, made the situation worse, how could it not? It is failed policy, it has no evidence base to support it and it is a return to the bad old days of paternalism and ignorance of Indigenous culture and needs. Once, just once, we should try something that has a chance, and we should revisit the recommendation of the Little Children are Sacred report and other similar reports, and we should try enacting policy with the best interests of Indigenous people as the priority and not enact policy simply based on it’s popularity within the generally ignorant white electorate!!

Gregg says:

06:07pm | 02/12/12

@Rose
You make massive generalisations for not every aboriginal child of a generation or generations was removed and far from it, some areas of Australia affected very little in fact and then you have the situation where many removed were and are very grateful for the opportunities afforded to them in life and have not gone on to alcohol and drug dependence, there being many other issues creating that situation and yes many years on from the times when children were removed you have children being abused by both adults, indigenous and non indigenous and also by older children.

It is a massively complex problem through indigenous and non indigenous communities as Jay has indicated and whereas in our non indigenous communities you have welfare and police etc. with problems still going on and the very reason there is now going to be a Royal Commission, indigenous communities are more on the fringe of our society, ( there actually a good book worthwhile reading called The Fringe Dwellers ) being many places that most non indigenous people would rarely if ever visit and having vastly different lives and not so much by way of welfare control or policing, all be it of likely different standards.

The multitude of problems has long been recognised and yet you criticise any attempt to do something about some of them in just one territory of Australia.
And so what would you do?, wave a magic wand!

Christian Real says:

09:06pm | 02/12/12

Rose
I disagree with the ‘intervention” brought in by the Howard Government upon our Aboriginal people because it discriminates against our people.
Alcohol, drugs,pornography exists in all races,nationalities and exists all walks of life other then soley from within our Aboriginal tribes and Aboriginal people.
The hurt and the traumatic effects inflicted upon our people by the British rulers that had overtaken our Aboriginal ancestor’s Country can never be completely erased or forgotten,the stolen generation, the seizure of Tribal lands and the displacement of our people,in their own Country and their own lands and for years and years denied the same equal rights as those generations that followed the original free settlers,soldiers and convicts that had arrived by the ships in the First Fleet and stole the Country and everything else that could be stolen away from the Aboriginals that were the inhabitants of this Country and lands.
My own Grandmother and her sisters were in fact some of the children that were taken away from their natural parents and at the age of 14 my Grandmother was made a servant in a stately Engish homes hundreds of miles away from her family and relatives.
Nothing can change or alter the past where our people were treated as second class citizens in their own Country.
The Australian Flag is a constant reminder of the past because it still bears the English flag in the corner and I feel that Australia needs to move on ,Our aboriginal people need to move on and the only way to do that is to remove the English flag from the ustralian Flag and design a completely new flag that also embraces the original inhabitants of this country.
Australia does need to become a republic and like other Countries that already has done so in the past, australia needs to break the bonds,the Apron strings that are keeping Our great Country shackled to England.
On Australia Day I cannot wave the “Australian” flag because it does not represent me or our people while it has got the flag of another Nation, another Country adorning its corner and reminding me and others of our people how our Aboriginal ancestors suffered under the take over of their Country and Tribal lands by the British.
It is time for healing, to address ourselves as a Country, a Nation in our own rights, to recognise that we are should move forward and removed all barriers that are preventing our Country from a reconcilliation that will unite our Country and all of our citizens together as one Nation, under one flag that we can all agree on.
A flag that will be recognised Worldwide as a true emblem to represent our Country and our people.
The song “I Am Australian (Bruce Woodley ,Dobe Newton that was written in 1987)  should possibly be made into our National Anthem as it encompasses and unites all Australians.

Achmed says:

08:34am | 02/12/12

The there is an apology t
To families of our servicemen injured/killed as a result of Howards ‘weapons of mass destruction’ lie.
To the families of the women and children who died trying to get to Australia because TPV prevented family re-union
To the families of those who died trying to get to Australia as refugees

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of sh*t by the clean end

Mouse says:

08:44am | 02/12/12

You are on fire today Toady! lol :o)

fzr560 says:

08:45am | 02/12/12

Would we be eligible for compensation from those last two dribblers?

PJ says:

10:06am | 02/12/12

To those Australians suffering hardship under the only and most expensive carbon tax in the world. SA say a 38% spike in Australian families having their electricity cut off.
To the 12.5% of Australian children growing up in families where no one has a job.
To the 21% of couples where only one member is lucky enough to have a job.
To Australia for being promised there would be no carbon tax under a Gillard Government.
To Australia for then promising you only wanted the big polluters to pay, but then extending that tax to every household bill.

Gerard says:

10:10am | 02/12/12

“And finally, a personal apology from Windsor and Oakeshott for maintaining support for the most dysfunctional and dishonest government in Australia’s history.”

I also want one from every single ALP backbencher who continues to support this mob despite being just as capable of bringing down the government as the independents.

PW says:

05:13pm | 02/12/12

Gerard, why would ALP backbenchers want to bring down the Government????

Gerard says:

06:55pm | 02/12/12

Whether they would want to or not is irrelevant. What matters is that it would be the right thing to do in the national interest. ALP backbenchers are as much to blame for the current government as Oakeshott and Windsor, yet Toady is demanding that only the independents be accountable.

PJ says:

10:41am | 02/12/12

The Sorry Culturalists drag us back, remind people of past grievances and mistakes and by doing so split them. They make everyone feel crap, divided.

The Sorry Culturalists believe in the continuity of wrong doing. That you are part of and a participant in the objectives of youre Great Great Grandfather.

The reality is most of us do not know whom our Great Great Grandfather was let alone being an advocate for his thought process.

Not only that but for some 40% of us, our Great Great Grandfathers lived overseas.

So it is a little off key that we should be required to participate in guilt and sorry sessions don’t you think?

Richard says:

05:30am | 03/12/12

I feel the same way about my time at Army Apprentices School Balcombe in the late 1970’s. Some of the senior appy’s (apprentices) would have fitted well into the SS with very little training. Other things like the ‘Sprogs” having to warm up the toilet seat of the Senior Appys were not only tolerated but condoned by the staff (character building) . No, I don’t want an apology as it doesn’t really mean anything unless it is sincere.

thomas vesely says:

09:04pm | 02/12/12

so that you can not call the empoverishment of the middle/lower class
any kind of enslavement ?

Bob says:

09:43am | 02/12/12

Well said Fiddler.

“I have still got emails I received from back in June from blokes describing the female soldier who was secretly filmed having sex as a dirty slut, saying it was her fault that her sexual encounter was beamed via Skype to other trainee soldiers. It is caveman stuff, and these cavemen were probably all having beers together in Canberra’s inner-northern defence suburbs on Friday night and laughing about Stephen Smith and his ponsy apology.”

Yeah, well done there with the ignorance there Peno. I was in Defence at the time this happened and what you just described came mostly out of other women’s ears when I heard it. “She knew what she was doing”, “She already has a rep, she’s a slut” and so on were the kinds of things I heard daily when I walked past women talking in the halls.

Oh, and an apology from the Defence minister really doesn’t mean much regarding anything that happens in the uniform. No one in the uniform ever says sorry - if you want it to actually mean something, make one of the brass stand up and say it.

Bruce says:

10:28am | 02/12/12

Agree: Its much like corporate apologies. They tend to be meaningless and used a way of ending or reducing the impact of the issue at hand. I wonder what things our parliament will apologizing for in 40 years time as a result of bad decisions made today ?

Gerard says:

10:20am | 02/12/12

Well, Oakeshott did advocate an apology, however you are correct that the motion was brought by Labor MP Andrew Leigh. Of course David Penberthy doesn’t mention this as doing so would deprive him of the chance to kick Oakeshott.

Eda says:

01:19pm | 02/12/12

Gerard,

Thanks for your response.

‘David Penberthy doesn’t mention this as doing so would deprive him of the chance to kick Oakeshott.’

It certainly appears that way.

The Punch (which Mr Penberthy is the editor- in- chief) had the John Alexander (Bennelong) speech on Peter Norman posted here a few months ago, and did not even have the grace to mention Andrew Leigh.

hammy says:

11:47am | 02/12/12

Are they misogynists when the victims were male?

Al says:

12:14pm | 02/12/12

Tom, I find your comments not only inaccurate, but disgusting. I am a civilian female who is also part of the Defence community, and I have never been made to feel like a ‘civvie slut’. The best people I have ever known serve in Defence, including many females who are quite happy to continually serve their country to protect our borders for people like you. No doubt there are a few bad eggs in the ADF - We had a paedophile and two stalkers where I work in a civilian workplace, so I guess that makes me and all of our civilian workers there paedophiles and stalkers too, right? I am also aware of several cases where Defence females have been assaulted by civilians. Stop judging the whole ADF by a few rotten eggs.

Warwick says:

08:12am | 03/12/12

Tom, you are right to point out that there are huge numbers of rapes and other loathsome forms of bullying that have come to light since the ADF have been subjected to investigation in the last few years. Some female members of the Armed Forces have taken sides with the bullies; maybe they themselves are so butch and ugly that even drunken sailors are repelled by the thought of having any physical contact with them. Or, to put it another way, bullies and rapists always have a preference for open and vulnerable young people as the victims of their malevolence.
There is another aspect of this. If so many members of our armed services have shown themselves to be eager to abuse, torture and rape their “mates,” for whom they are supposed to be willing to die, how often do they bully and rape the local people in the countries where they are serving? How many people in East Timor have been treated as punching bags by these people? How many of the local women, there and in Afghanistan, have been raped? If the brass at home have been able to cover up this gross behavior they would certainly be able to keep the lid on any potential scandals abroad.

nihonin says:

01:13pm | 02/12/12

For an a apology to ever be genuine, 99% of it must be dirty lucre.

youdy beaudy says:

03:24pm | 02/12/12

@ C, being one of the sundry i apologize to you for whatever it is that you need an apology for. I don’t know what it is or what i have done. But if that’s what’s required by you i apologize for whatever it is i never did.

Cool hey!. Now, i wrote that because i didn’t want you to hold your breath. Are you holding it in or out. If in, we know that you will have to breath out, but, if out then we know that you will be dead soon if you don’t breathe in again.

Who is C, well i don’t know who you are but you are important to the apologists. Have a good xmas and new year C and i am glad that you may be breathing again soon. Breathing is better than holding the breath, isn’t it. Well, i can breathe better now knowing that you are OK.

Kathrine Grant says:

08:38am | 03/12/12

I accept no responsibility for the treatment of aboriginal people since 1788 nor for the stolen generation.  However, I am deeply and sincerely sorry for the fact that they suffered such treatment.  If my saying that offers a crumb of comfort to their descendants then I’m more than happy to say it

Tom says:

05:00pm | 02/12/12

Paul, cutting the budget of an organisation that pays blokes to run around the bush shooting blanks at each other is no bad thing. It’‘ll be good for some grunts to be put to work doing something productive.

I think brass buttoned boys club is an accurate description. They dress up in their pompous dress uniforms and spend all night drinking- paying themselves to be there!

pa_kelvin says:

04:21pm | 02/12/12

I’m sorry you don’t like what the “Liberal lovers” say…......

Mel says:

04:40pm | 02/12/12

Yes because Lefties never lie do they ....

nihonin says:

04:41pm | 02/12/12

lol, thanks for the laugh Bear.

How about the acolytes of all parties apologise to all the other voters of Australia.  For the crap quality of politicians the members have allowed their parties to foist upon the country.

Christian Real says:

08:01pm | 02/12/12

Bear
Agreed

hammy says:

04:17pm | 02/12/12

There’s been a few articles these past few weeks how the criminal shouldn’t be blamed.  They’ve had a hard life, we should support drug taking and robbing people, it’s obviously not their fault.  Rehabilitation solves everything - it makes criminals stop committing crimes.  If only we would give them (yet) another chance!!!

Duane says:

05:04pm | 02/12/12

Queensland’s always been a bit different.

Sickemrex says:

06:39pm | 02/12/12

It’s shit enough when bleating-hearts do it but it’s downright shameful when the State does it. That’s one instance where a government department got it wrong and should directly apologise. Nothing but silence from Jann Stuckey, contrasting with her enthusiasm in Opposition.

Shane From Melbourne says:

06:27pm | 02/12/12

Why should I apologize? I didn’t personally perform such actions nor did I vote for any government that performed such actions. I have no responsibility for actions that caused the “Stolen Generations” nor do I consider such a formal apology by the federal government to be a valid apology upon my behalf. As far as your guilt trip is concerned- get stuffed.

hammy says:

06:58pm | 02/12/12

“You just like to see your words printed on here so you can say *hey, look what I did* like some immature young child.”

Much like yourself.