The present political consensus among the major parties against permitting and recognising same sex marriages is so obviously an intellectual surrender to the religious right that one looks for a single phrase rhetorical demolition of this anti-gay pretence of a position that would show it in all of its hypocrisy.

Participants in a mass 'illegal wedding' outside the ALP Conference in Sydney earlier this month. Pic: AFP

I do not, for a moment, believe that those politicians (including speakers at the recent Labor Party National Conference) who go on about protecting the “sanctity of marriage” believe the nonsense they espouse. I also fail to believe that they believe that a majority of the Australian people support the continued refusal to recognise single sex marriages.

I believe that the political imperative is to avoid the anger of that noisy minority, the religious right, which, itself, is hardly representative of most people of a religious persuasion in Australia. The political imperative also concerns the possible swing vote of the Family First in the Senate.

Interestingly, the curious passage of proposition 8 by the electors of California on the same first Tuesday in November that saw the election of President Obama has been a catalyst for a rejuvenated movement in the US to assert the right of gay people in that country to have their relationships fully recognised.  Demonstrations in support of equal treatment for gay people proliferated across America. Even many normally conservative small towns in the American Bible Belt saw outbreaks of activism.

The Atlantic Monthly’s columnist and blogger, Andrew Sullivan, documented in words and pictures this unexpected result of what appeared to be a set back for the gay rights movement. The demonstrations appear, in the photographs, to be cheerful and good humoured. Among the many witticisms displayed by the demonstrator’s signs is perhaps the rhetorical sledge hammer for which I have been searching: “Against Gay Marriage: Then Don’t Have One”.

The debate between Sullivan and his readers also reveals a deeper truth. Whereas Sullivan had argued that every gay person and their friends and family must come out to ensure recognition of gay rights, the readers argued correctly that the rights of any minority are far too important to be left to the minority to assert and defend. Suppression of minority rights is a challenge to the rights that each of us enjoys as well as a challenge to our sanctimonious world view.

It is too easy for people to feel about same sex marriage that this is just an indulgence. Deep inside, we can hear ourselves thinking: “What will they want next? They are not thrown into jail, anymore. Surely that’s enough.” The reality, however, of the desire for gay marriage is far from an indulgence.

From the blogs, the anecdotes of true suffering emerged. They illustrated the powerless position of a gay partner especially at the time of grieving and loss when a long and deep relationship has been terminated by death of one of the partners. The following account of a hospital scene is truly the appropriate response to those who prattle on about defending the sanctity of marriage:

I remember a story told me during the AIDS epidemic. A man was visiting a friend dying in hospital. It was a grim scene, as it often was in those days. The next bed in the ward had a curtain drawn around it. And from behind that curtain, you could hear someone quietly singing. The man told his friend, “Well, at least that dude is keeping his spirits up, however sick he is.”

And the friend replied: “Oh, that’s not the patient singing. He died this morning. And his family came to collect the body. That voice you hear is the man’s partner. The family didn’t approve of his relationship and they have barred him from coming to the funeral and kicked him out of their shared home. That song he’s singing is the song they called their own. It was playing when they met. He used to sing it to him all the time when he was dying.

“He’s still singing it even though they’ve taken the body away. He’s singing it to an empty bed. I guess it’s the last time he feels he’ll ever be close to the man he loved. They were together twenty years. The hospital staff don’t have the heart to ask him to leave yet.”

Gay rights are human rights. Each of us should stand for the full recognition of same sex marriage.

89 comments

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    • DWest says:

      07:40am | 21/08/09

      Labor is back in the 20th century, held hostage to medieval religons, ancient centralised energy companys and the old capitalisms preferred cartels and ‘donations’ model. If the ALP is so visionary, progressive and if it has any sense of social justice, it will step into the 21st century ... sometime this century! After growing some balls.

    • Mistress D says:

      07:43am | 21/08/09

      Oh gods,

      I hope by the time I have kids they can be married to who ever they want. But I’d prefer my friends could have the same rights as me.

    • Jake Zanoni says:

      08:38am | 21/08/09

      I’m not entirely sure the anecdote given in this article is relevant to the present Australian legal reality.  The circumstances and strategy of a particular case aside, is it not true that domestic partnerships are recognised, including for gay couples?  What is the current legal relationship in terms of a dead partner for a domestic partnership?  Is this different for gay couples?

      It’s been a while since I studied family law.

      Anyway, the clear solution to the issue of gay marriage is to remove marriage as a legal instrument i.e. do away with Government marriages in their entirety including heterosexual and homosexual.  There is really no reason for state marriage to exist and for a long long long time it did not.

      Marriage should be rightfully returned to the full domain of religious institutions, other societal organisations, society in general.  The social aspect of a marriage is separated from the legal instrument.

      Domestic partnership and family law can be crafted to cover property settlements, and other issues like the one mentioned above.  In fact with recent changes to the laws, a significant reform would not be necessary as domestic partnership laws are quite involved and encompassing.  Greater contractual freedom could be allowed for couples to fill in the gaps and make personal arrangements as they so desire.  If necessary, a civil union system could be maintained.

      While we are going to have Government marriage though, I personally side with opening it up to homosexual couples.

    • Martin says:

      09:08am | 21/08/09

      It is an interesting argument that the ‘sanctity of marriage’ is a nonsense but we all have to give respect to the concept of a non existent ‘right’ to gay marriage. Perhaps respect for one would give respect to the other.

    • David says:

      09:25am | 21/08/09

      The way things are going we will soon be able to marry man and dog , cat , budgie and in some instances , sheep or camels !
      If humans want to ‘’ hook up ‘’ to each other , let them , without the religious claptrap . They do no harm to anyone except to the bigots with sexual hangups .
      Leave the ‘’ legal ‘’ bits to the lawyers .

    • Tim says:

      09:34am | 21/08/09

      Wow,
      your anecdote from the 1980"s?, which has nothing to do with the gay marriage debate adds so much to your argument.
      Seeing as the Government has changed the laws such that gays now have equal rights to defacto couples, what is your point?
      This is no longer an argument about discrimination.
      I think the government should remove all marriage laws and have only a civil partnership for all couples if they want to join themselves. The couple can then have whatever ceremony they want to after this.

    • Ron says:

      09:35am | 21/08/09

      There is nothing you write here which could not be used as a substituted argument in favour of incest or polygamy (if they had a sufficiently powerful, threatening, and bullying lobby group to back it up like the gay lobby). Would you like to justify why they too should not also be allowed legal marriage status?

    • Joe says:

      09:52am | 21/08/09

      There’s a bit of a conundrum here.  On the one hand we have “marriage is dead”, there is no “sanctity of marriage”, “it’s only a piece of paper”, and so on.  And on the other hand we are told that it is vitally important for homosexuals to be allowed to marry. 

      Unfortunately we can’t have it both ways, as Stephen Keim seems to want.  If marriage is a minor irrelevancy, then there is no point in homosexuals marrying.  But if it is of such significance that even homosexuals are so up tight about it, then it is vitally important to take good note of the other vested interests and the reasons for their opposition.

    • Jeremy says:

      10:07am | 21/08/09

      Seven comments in and someone runs the stupid “slippery slope” argument. Ron doesn’t have an argument against gay marriage itself, so he lists some other things that sound bad and hopes that that’ll be enough to smear marriage equality. Who needs logic when you’ve got an appeal to revulsion?

      And Joe - it’s just equality. The people advocating for marriage equality do not say that “marriage is dead”. They say that it is an important right that all should share, regardless of gender or sexuality.

    • Tim says:

      10:29am | 21/08/09

      Ha ha Jeremy,
      Where is the logic in your own argument against Ron’s assertion then?
      Who needs logic when you can just reject an argument out of hand hey?
      If this argument is truly about equality and discrimination, then Ron is correct when he states the same argument can be made for incest and polygamy, as well as people under the age of 18. I mean we can’t have age discrimination in these enlightened times.

    • Chade says:

      11:06am | 21/08/09

      Tim: what the? We DO have age discrimination - and I’m not referring to marriage or anything related…

    • GT says:

      11:13am | 21/08/09

      Ha Ha TIm
      The logic lies in that Incest and polygamy are ILLEGAL.
      Gays and De Facto couples do NOT have equal rights. The former can legally marry, the latter cannot. Haven’t you been listening…err reading?

    • John says:

      11:24am | 21/08/09

      Ha Ha GT.  Homosexuality was once illegal too.  Your argument points in the opposite direction to what you intended.

    • Laurence says:

      11:43am | 21/08/09

      Well aside from the fact that both polygamy and incest are illegal, sure, go ahead. Let them marry. The argument is immediately exactly the same. Except for the fact that homosexuality is estimated to be about 10% of the population, whereas polygamists and incestuous relationships would barely be noticeable. And the fact that, on one hand, polygamy is more than two people (directly violating the idea of two people marrying, as it was originally) and incest leads to serious genetic defects in children and general awkwardness at family reunions.

      Jeremy is right. It’s equality they are after, not marriage. It’s just a bunch of ignorant bigots standing in the way.

    • Ben says:

      11:54am | 21/08/09

      Stephen I find your arguement quite extraordinary.
      First, I would have thought someone of your education as well as your knowledge and experience of the law would understand that the issue of these ‘rights’ that everyone is supposedly entitled to is hardly straightfoward.
      These rights were not passed down immutably to humanity. Rights are a human construct, a product of civilisation and it is the very nature of rights as changeable things that has led to gay people escapting the discrimination of persecution of previous eras. The point is Stephen that no one is automatically entitled to these rights - we come to enjoy them because of values the community has developed over time so how can every time someone in society is exluded from something it is a breach of their rights??
      You and the rest of the moral relativism brigade are also content to quash the rights of Christians, Muslims, other religions and members of indigenous communities for whom marriage (as opposed to a civil union) is a sacred matter of their faith which does not extend to couples of the same gender. Is that when it comes to rights all animals are equal but some are more equal than others?
      Good on Joe for highlighting the contradiction at the heart of Stephen’s and other commentators who have argued in favour of gay ‘marriage’. On on the one hand the religious sanctity of marriage is pronounced nonsense and the religious element of both it and Australian society declared non-existent. and time after time they line up to champion gay people’s rights to be part of this irrelevant institution bereft of all meaning! If it does have meaning, as would seem to be illustrated by the many poeple fronting up to churches, mosques etc to be married, then surely the reason (apart from the charming surrounds) is that they think it is a more ‘weighty’ method of formalising their committment which in turn must be attributed to the religious faith element of ‘marriage’. If that is the case, then why are people happy to respect the religious faith that imbues the ceremony to instruct their commitment to each other but not the same religious faith’s views of gay marriage??
      It seems even more curious when the vast majority (as opposed to noisy miniority no matter how entitled to protection) are firmly in favour of protecting the rights of gay people to enter into domestic arrangements with their loved ones that are recognised and protected under the law and celebrated with a ‘civil union’ and when changes to the laws have already occurred that gay people and their advocates are so desparate get access to ‘marriage’.
      Earlier in the struggle for freedom from persecution one of the utterely rational and justified war cries of gay activists and those supporting them (in a further irony of course many supporters were from the mainstream Christian churches as were those who supported many AIDS sufferers and their partners when AIDS was a death sentence - a fact unacknowledged these days) was that a person should not be judged on their sexuality since that is only one part of who they are. Yet on the issue of gay marriage it seems that we are being asked to do the opposite - to single out and endorse a sexuality. I can understand why many gay people desparately wish this to occur but why obsessively pick marriage as the catalyst.

    • Ron says:

      12:06pm | 21/08/09

      Laurence,

      The ‘original idea’ was for a man and a woman to be married; proponents of gay marriage want this overturned, what is stopping it from being overturned again?

      And I’m sure homosexuals have NEVER cause awkwardness at family reunions. John is quite correct - homosexuality itself was declared illegal not so long ago.

      It might be fun to dismiss detractors of this idea as ‘churchies’, ‘right-wingers’, and ‘ignorant bigots’, but the delicious irony in all this is that in the future you might find your own voice in the chorus.

    • Tim says:

      12:06pm | 21/08/09

      Gay marriage is currently illegal too, laws change, isn’t that what you’re arguing for?
      I thought your point was that the gays marriage lobby are trying to remove discrimination and have equality for all.
      Laurence,
      10%??? get serious. Provide stats if you want to throw figures around.
      And its a bit rich for people saying that the definition of marriage should be changed to include same sex couples, to say you can’t change it to include more than two people. And as for genetic defects, does that mean that any couple who has a propensity to have children with genetic defects shouldn’t be able to marry?
      You can’t argue to end discrimination whist being so discriminatory yourself.

    • Kate says:

      12:30pm | 21/08/09

      Wow…I find many of the comments to this article very saddening. It comes down to this…who I choose to have a relationship and spend my life with is MY choice (and certainly not the governments) and me/my partner and our children should not be disadvantaged in any way just because I choose to have a relationship with another woman (instead of a man) and right now legally I am.
      But that is just the legal reason, the sentimental reason also stands…how dare you say that my relationship is LESS WORTHY than yours, that it should not be recognised and celebrated as fully just because my partner happens to lack a Y chromosome…that is as ridiculous as laws against inter-racial marriage and you know it!!! And believe it or not we are not asking for the church to suddenly stop discriminating (that’s a separate battle) we want civil marriage (NOT religious marriage) so that next time I meet you at a party I can introduce you to my wonderful WIFE!!!

    • aphid says:

      12:32pm | 21/08/09

      Ben: ” I can understand why many gay people desparately wish this to occur but why obsessively pick marriage as the catalyst.”

      Why not? It’s probably the one element of law and society that’s not equal between gay and hetero couples, so it’s the obvious target for trying to instigate change towards true equality.

      You can’t really compare incest and polygamy to gay relationships. The former can create serious, irreversible problems for the childeren (amongst other things), while evidence for the latter being an equal, functional relationship is sketchy at best. Gay relationships have none of the problems associated with the other two.

      In any case, I’m all for removing marriage from the law system altogether. If the religious right think it’s so precious, then they can decide for themselves what they want to call ‘marriage’ while the law courts can just consider everything a civil union.

    • Ben says:

      12:36pm | 21/08/09

      Wow, I didn’t realise it was possible to say so much without actually saying anything! What’s your point Mr Keim?

    • Bob says:

      12:47pm | 21/08/09

      Tell me, why should incest and polygamy be illegal? Just because its something you find disgusting, doesn’t mean it should not be legal between consenting adults. If you are brother and sister, father and daughter etc. and both consenting adults, and that is what both of you want, it is none of my business what you do. If one is underage, then that is paedophilic incest, different kettle of fish. If you like to urinate on your partner during sex, which most people find disgusting. as long as its consenting then it is legal. What is the difference? If all 3, 4, 5 parties agree to be married and are of sound mind and adults, why not.  Once again, no one elses business. When it comes to marrying animals, until you can find an animal that can talk or write and consent, obviously that shold be illegal.

      That some, even most people find something abhorent, is not a reason for it to be illegal for anyone to do it, provided it does not affect anyone without their consent, or anyone who is not old enough to consent.

      I totally agree with churches refusing to marry gay couples. I mean that is their religion, and all religions are discriminatory.
      But that has nothing to do with Australia’s laws.
      And currently, gay australians cannot have a secular Australian marriage. Without one reason which which I have yet heard which does not involve religion.
      Fell free to provide me with one.

    • McCoy Pauley says:

      12:50pm | 21/08/09

      Hmm, so who wears the pants?

    • jim says:

      01:08pm | 21/08/09

      Wow, all of a sudden anyone religious or with a cultural background has lost their rights free speech.

      I would have thought that the Dalai Lama, Kadeer and other various religious groups crying for free speech is symbolic of the importance of preservation of culture rather than have Governments trample over villages and their beliefs.


      Chinese cultural marriages still do not accept gay marriages. Not just Christians or Muslims.

      In my opinion, marriage should be completely removed from the Legal System. It makes no sense it being there, and most of the time, it comes down to the love of money being the root of all evil.

      If marriage wasn’t in the legal system, then true love is what drives the marriage to bond.


      Trampling over cultures to make all Australians think in one opinion, fit in one frame, one culture rather than having a diverse opinion and culture, is effectively Communism. It’s not the multicultural Australia we’ve come to know.

    • John says:

      01:10pm | 21/08/09

      Bob, why do you say that “paedophilic incest” is a “different kettle of fish”?  Personally I find it abhorrent, but based on your argument I can’t see why it should be any different?

    • G says:

      01:17pm | 21/08/09

      I could care less if gays wish to have a legally recognised union.  I am not homophobic, racist, sexist or a religious nutbag BUT I do not agree that gay unions should be called marriage.  Marriage is between a man and a woman it is really that simple.  I have gay friends that cannot understand how I can be ok with their lifestyle yet object to this but object I do.  There is not one single argument that can be put to me to justify the use of the term marriage between same sex couples.  It is in my opinion nothing more than a flag to wave and when the Gumbyment crumbles to the minority group advocating marriage “as it always does” these people will move onto the next topic and will never be happy. Now no doubt someone will attempt to denigrate me in some way and to you, I’ve heard it before so save your breath for someone who is interested in what you have to say!

    • exumbrerum says:

      01:17pm | 21/08/09

      I agree that the discrimination should end - all civil marriages should be disallowed. Marriage is not a secular institution - it is a religious institution. If you wished to become a member of a particular faith or club, but were not willing to prescribe to the ethos of said faith or rules of the club, it is irrational to complain to an independent government that holds no authority over such organisations that you are being discriminated against. Religions have exclusive memberships; if you don’t want to play by their rules, you don’t have to - but don’t be surprised when they ask you to leave.

      A perfect example is the largely bastardised (no pun intended) tradition of holding a “naming day” for children of individuals who do not hold particularly strong religious view. It accomplishes the civil aims of a baptism or christening (getting the family together, introducing the latest member and having a celebration) without any religious overtones but IS NOT called a civil baptism - because baptism is a religious institution, not a civil one. No one is calling for civil bar or bat mitzvahs to celebrate their children’s coming of age - because that is a religious institution. Marriage is not meaningless, and it has NOT (to those of us who still prize it above all else) lost its sanctity - no matter how much others would try to sully it.

      It is impossible to divorce marriage from religion - they are inextricably connected, and will always be so.

    • Patrick says:

      01:18pm | 21/08/09

      The slippery slope argument is something of a farce.

      First of all, the difference betweem two people of the same gender engaging in a relationship, to a person attempting to engage in a relationship with an animal, is that animals do not have the same legal status of humans and are not giving their consent to that relationship. That is the key.

      Polygamy? Well frankly, who gives a damn if somebody engages in a polygamist relationship with multiple persons, and if they do why is it any of your or the governments business? That is what the Right Wing traditionally stood for after all, individual freedoms free from government (or religious) interference.

      As for Incest, that is something more of a grey area. Although I do not have any figures on hand to back it up, aparently the overwhelming number of incest cases are in the form of child abuse, and children are most definetely not able to give their consent to engage in a sexual relationship with an adult for obvious reasons.

      Apart from that, human beings have a natural aversion to the practice, but where two consenting adults of sound mind who are closesly related to each other do choose to engage in a relationship, why should we begrudge them that? ( The royal houses of europe have been doing it for centuries anyhow) But the issue there becomes if it is moral to bring children into the world who will be genetically defective to the point it makes their lives one of suffering.

      In any event, two consenting adults who are sound of mind who choose to engage in a relationship with each other should be free to do so and to have the same legal rights as anybody else. I don’t care if it’s called marriage or civil unions, so long as the rights that each bring are the same.

    • Ben says:

      01:29pm | 21/08/09

      Kate I DON’T care with whom you have a relationship. I’d be very happy to meet your partner and very happy for you that you find her wonderful.
      I DO care that you think that think your relationship or that of any other gay person is less ‘worthy’ than a heterosexual one because this is NOT what I said.
      What I was doing was critique Stephen’s arguements about gay people having a ‘right’ to marriage as it in this country which is a religious ceremony unless it is conducted by a civil celebrant. I’m very happy for you to have your relationship recognised by a civil union not by a ‘marriage’ which is inherently a ceremony of religious faith.
      The fact that you seem so able to interpret my comments confirms in my mind that for you and many others this debate is about the society/community endorsing your relationship. But why does the community have to do that Kate? Why do you require our collective endorsement? Why do you expect it? Does it mean you love your partner any less if we don’t?
      Aphid I can see your point and support your conclusions.

    • Patrick says:

      01:31pm | 21/08/09

      John, 1.10pm, because if you had read Bob’s post properly, an underage child is not emotionally, physically and intellectually mature enough to choose to engage in a sexual relationship with an adult, let alone an adult to which they are related. There are scientific reasons for that aswell as moral ones.  That is why we have something called the age of consent,

    • Elias says:

      01:34pm | 21/08/09

      If the sanctity of marriage is nonsense than why the urge for gays to get married? This is merely a ploy by ‘gay lobbyists’, a right wing minority not concerned with rights but hell bent on undermining heterosexual values. If anything there the ‘religious right’ of all gays.

    • John says:

      01:43pm | 21/08/09

      Patrick,  the “slippery slope argument” is not a farce.  Whether you think it is a good thing or a bad thing here is beside the point.  Once upon a time homosexually was illegal, and was considered abhorrent by most people.  Eventually homosexuals managed to have it legalised, but most people still considered it abhorrent.  “Gay bashing” was considered right and proper in some quarters, though we are (at least I am) disgusted by it today.  Slowly it has pushed more and more into our culture and legal system such that “gay pride” is a good thing, “homophobe” is a major swear word, prime ministers and premiers jump at the chance to promote the Sydney mardi gras, to have gay friends (if one is not homosexual one’s self) is a badge of honour, and homosexuality is being actively promoted in our schools as a good thing.

      Again, whether this is considered a bad thing or a good thing, it has clearly been a progression - one thing has opened the way for the next, and so on.

      So who’s to say where it should stop?  What right has anyone to say what should be allowed and what not?  What basis has anyone got for their morality?

    • Andrew says:

      01:49pm | 21/08/09

      This is not about marriage, it is not about civil unions, it is about rights and recognition… Call it Gayship for all I care. But make it legal for two people of the same sex to publiclly declare that they want to be viewed as legally bound. Recognition as a defacto relationship purely gives the government a way of classifying couples for tax reasons.

      My 3 siblings were married, 2 in a garden, 1 on a beach. They for all intensive purposes have entered into a union that legally recognises them as bound together until death or divorce. Why cannot I have the same option? To stand in front of friends and family, before a duely appointed offical and declare love and a wish to be legally bound to another man.

      Give me a non religious reason why I can’t be legally bound to another man? And not the “nowhere else in nature” argument. No other animal on this planet has bothered to develop these rules and cultures as we have!

    • Kate says:

      01:58pm | 21/08/09

      Ben, I have to say I don’t think I was responding to your comments in particular, but anyway…your argument (and many peoples) seems to be entirely to do with the word “marriage” which strikes me as arguing over semantics…but I don’t really care if you keep your word…as long as civil unions are afforded exactly the same legal rights as marriages then I am not fussed….though “will you civil union me?” doesn’t roll off the tongue quite as nicely now does it?
      As for public endorsement…you try living in a world where you are constantly told that how you live your life is wrong/disgusting/morally depraved and where you can’t hold your partners hand in public or kiss them goodbye for fear of people saying and doing nasty things….and you too might just want a public endorsement!!

    • exumbrerum says:

      02:17pm | 21/08/09

      Andrew says:
      My 3 siblings were married, 2 in a garden, 1 on a beach. They for all intensive purposes have entered into a union that legally recognises them as bound together until death or divorce. Why cannot I have the same option? To stand in front of friends and family, before a duely appointed offical and declare love and a wish to be legally bound to another man.
      Guess what? You can - you just can’t call it marriage.

    • Jake Zanoni says:

      02:18pm | 21/08/09

      Kate said:

      “And believe it or not we are not asking for the church to suddenly stop discriminating (that’s a separate battle) we want civil marriage (NOT religious marriage) so that next time I meet you at a party I can introduce you to my wonderful WIFE!!! “

      What is stopping you from doing that now?  Why don’t you get married right now.  Have a wedding, have a ceremony, get someone you admire or whomever you think has the ‘authority’ (not legal authority, spiritual, personal or societal), to oversee your wedding.  Introduce your partner as your wife.  You don’t need the Government to give you permission.  Get married and embrace your marriage.  Believe in it.

      A legal document won’t make someone at a party acknowledge your marriage.  If I don’t believe in gay marriage, I don’t care waht the Government says.  You can introduce your wife and I can say ‘NOPE!’.  What will you do then?

      I’m getting married soon.  As a Noachide (simplified, a non-jewish follower of judaism) I will not be going through a jewish wedding ceremony, however our ceremony will involve the old jewish ritual of matrimony.  There will be no rabbi.  But we also won’t be getting a Government marriage.  We will be married, but not according to the Government.

      My question to you is, when I introduce you to my wife at a party, what will you say?  What will you think?

    • Dan says:

      02:35pm | 21/08/09

      And the point I made in a discussion with some co-workers last night is effectively made.  Those against gay marriage will bring up one or all of the following - paedophilia, bestiality or polygamy.  I do wish the homophobes would come up with some new arguments, because these are really getting old :(

    • Darin says:

      02:42pm | 21/08/09

      Society has decided that being gay is no longer an illness, and is consentual gay relationships are no longer a criminal offence. Governments at state and the federal level have agreed that gay relationships deserve equal rights and protections, and have legislated in part to provide some of those equal rights and protections. however, having agreed that such relationships are no longer an illness to be treated or a crime to be punished, and that gay men and women are deserving of dignity and respect, there are still aspects of legal discrimination that are deliberately applied. The most visible and significant being the ability to enter into equal legal unions, that everyone knows as marriage. It is illogical for society/government to argue that a recognised group in the community should no longer be considered immoral or criminal, and that they should not be discriminated against, and yet still deny that group full and equal treatment under the law. One should not argue on one hand that they recognise and respect gay relationships, but on the other, support deliberate legal discrimination.
      The question of gay marriage is completely seperate from incest or polygomy, as those are illegal. Gay marriage is also distinct and seperate from religious marriage ceremonies. Religous ceremonial marriage carries no legal recognition; only the state can provide that legal recognition.
      This debate is about whether the state will provide the same basic legal rights and protections to committed consenting relationships, regardless of the genders of the couple involved.

    • Paul H says:

      02:53pm | 21/08/09

      Oh God another pro Gay marriage rant by yet another elitist journalist. In the last 4 weeks Mr Kleim the Adelaide Advertiser has run three stories on this issue and all of them were for it! There have been a number of similar “pro gay” contributors on news based blog sites. I would have thought in the interests of unbiased journalism that these same “news” services would run contributions from at least one or two naysayers.

      As other contributors have pointed out the whole Gay marriage argument is really an argument for anything goes. How can you argue against polygamy, polyamorism, bestiality, incest - you name it!  So let us not restrict the argument to being only about homosexual rights Mr Kleim but the very annihilation of the institution itself!. Marriage exists because of its exclusivity ,simple as that!  It’s uniqueness reflects the natural order of male and female coupling to create the next generation! In fact non consummation was considered an annulment of the marriage contract! How sick and perverted we have become!

      Marriage was intended primarily for the successful nuturance and protection of children and no other “trendy” alternate relationship comes close. No child has ever suffered because they were raised in a happy loving heterosexual relationship! 

      But you are right Marriage has become nothing more than excrement. Its destruction started under successive Labour Governments with the no fault divorce laws of the seventies and further supported by recognition and acceptance of de facto couples. Under this onslaught it is any wonder how it exists in any form at all! 

      But arguing that homosexuality is as natural and wholesome as heterosexual sex is a bit like arguing that cancer patients are as healthy as Olympic Athletes! Why would nature make a decision to use sex as a vehicle for procreation and then introduce homosexuality as a natural variation any more than it would introduce viruses and cancer as a “natural” variation to a persons immune system?  We call cancer and viruses a disease and strive with all our might to eradicate them! What’s the difference Mr Kleim?

      And on the subject of animals if we can accept homosexual sex as being equivalent to heterosexual sex then surely we must accept non sexual unions as deserving of equal recognition. Many people have closer relationships with their animals than with fellow humans but stop short of sexual contact. Why should’nt they also receive equal recognition! And come to think of it why should’nt platonic same sex friendships also receive similar recognition as a means of showing the world just how much you care about your same sex mate - a bromance if you would ! 

      And to further destroy the stupididty of your elitist argument why restrict it to animate objects. Certain males have incredible fixation with their motor vehicles and enjoy a closeness that they would never even contemplate with another human being! Who are you to say that their relationship is inferior to your homosexual one if they derive incredible joy and happiness from it? In the end isn’t that what it’s all about - breaking down stereotypes, discriminatory barriers, destroying the prejudices of the majority bal bla bla! The stupidity of your argument defies basic logic!

    • Sam Bakar says:

      02:53pm | 21/08/09

      This argument is pointless- marriage is defined as a union between a man and a woman. If we allow same sex couples to get ‘married’ then marriage, as we know it, will cease to exist. And then that happens?
      Why stop at same sex couples? Why not have one man and multiple wives? Or one woman and multiple husbands? Why not make it so that you can marry different people concurrently, getting divorced & married once a week? The possibilities are endless and are only limited by our imagination and what we perceive to be anybodies ‘rights’ at any one time. Yes by all means make same sex couples recognised under the law- but by blurring the definition of marriage it begins to lose its meaning.

    • Margaret Gray says:

      02:57pm | 21/08/09

      This a such a boring and specious argument.

      There is NO DIFFERENCE in Australia regarding the recognition of same-sex couples under the law.

      None. Zip.

      As has been stated ad nauseum, MARRIAGE is a RELIGIOUS sacrament between a MAN and a WOMAN.

      A husband and wife who identify as atheist enjoy NO LESS protection under the law than a Roman Catholic couple.

      Are they both deemed to be MARRIED?

      Who cares!

      They enjoy EQUAL RIGHTS under the law.

      Having a celebrant friend pour a jug of water over you in your backyard pool doesn’t mean you are “BAPTISED” either.  That is a CHRISTIAN sacrament.

      This continual carping and desperation from the homosexual community for recognition of their unions as “marriage” remains bewildering.

      Perhaps they could explain their need to constantly attack (surprisingly only the Christian church) one of the strongest tenets of the Christian (& others) faith?

    • Margaret Gray says:

      03:06pm | 21/08/09

      Darin

      “...there are still aspects of legal discrimination that are deliberately applied…”

      “...that they recognise and respect gay relationships, but on the other, support deliberate legal discrimination…”

      Absolute rubbish.

      Feel free to direct us to the clear unambiguous evidence of these claims you make.

    • Stumped says:

      03:08pm | 21/08/09

      GT says (at 11:13am) - polygamy is only illegal in the same way that homosexuality is (i.e you cant marry someone if they are already married to someone else) - you can still live together, have a relationship etc, and with the changes to de-facto relationship provisions, polygamists, arguably, have exactly the same rights as homosexuals with respect to marriage, but nice try.

      Incest is illegal for a number of reasons including the associated biological risks to any children of the union (to use archaic terminology).

      Personally, I don’t care either way - marriage (as both a religious entity and social construct and as currently defined in legislation) is between a man and woman. If you want to change it lobby for that, if you don’t want to changed, lobby for that.

      If it’s about the ‘legal union’ we should stop calling it a “marriage” and call it a “union” (for both heterosexual and homosexual couples) - the ‘marriage’ can be a religious institution (or sacrament in the Catholic hierarchy) that is not recognised by law.  Good luck with that - the 2006 census shows that the MAJORITY in this democracy self-report as ‘Christians’ (which, if true to the teaching of their faith*, consider marriage to be between a man and woman), and it doesn’t include the other religions that specify “man and woman” for marriage.

      John (at 01:43pm) - Morality and legality are very different things. Perfect example is adultery. The majority, as I understand it, think that it is ‘morally wrong’ to cheat on your partner, yet adultery is not a criminal offence. Why not? A person can behave ‘immorally’ without behaving illegally - it’s not appropriate to suggest that they are the same thing.

      As for origins of morality - that’s a whole different debate with religious and philosophical implications.


      *I suspect that, despite claiming belief in god, most followers are sensible and ignore the more ridiculous parts of the religious dogma.

    • Patrick says:

      03:08pm | 21/08/09

      First, Elis 1.34pm. Gay lobbyists a “right wing minority”?


      HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

      Anyway, moving on, John 1.43pm, it should stop at the point where those involved are not two consenting adults of sound mind. Why it “should” stop at this point should be obvious enough to you, because rational adult human beings lives are nobodies to control but their own, and what they choose to do with their own lives and who they choose to spend them with is their own busines. Again, individual liberties has historically been the platform the Right has stood on.

      Most morality is of course, an invention of society. What I can say for that however is that something becomes immoral where ones liberties start to infringe upon anothers personal security, and when something is done by a person to another person against their consent. I am yet to hear an argument by anybody who is not a fruitcake which contests this notion that it is immoral to inflict harm on another human being against their consent.

      As for children, as I have said, they are not emotionally, physically and intellectually mature enough to make the same rational decisions by an adult human being, that is not an opinion, that is a scientific fact, and it is why we judge them not capable of rationally giving their consent to engage in a relationship with an adult human being, and is why it would be immoral to try and convince them to do so.

      It is entirely different to two rational adults of the same Gender consenting to enter a relationship with each other.

    • Patrick says:

      03:18pm | 21/08/09

      Paul H, there is so much horribly wrong with your comments that it would take quite some time to debunk the lot of it, time which I do not have but what I will question is this

      “It’s uniqueness reflects the natural order of male and female coupling to create the next generation! In fact non consummation was considered an annulment of the marriage contract! How sick and perverted we have become!”

      So, I would assume you only ever have sex purely for the act of procreation, never enjoyment, never use condoms or any contraceptives and condemn all heterosexual couples that do?

    • watty says:

      03:22pm | 21/08/09

      If you mock “the sanctity of marriage” then why the big fuss about gays not being allowed to “marry” each other.?

      Why not just go live with each other in peace and happiness and leave marriage to the"right wing” zealots?

      Roger Ramjet and his boyfriend surely don’t need “marriage” to make them feel “complete”?

    • Steve B says:

      03:32pm | 21/08/09

      Tim: Exactly the same argument should be used to allow polygamy. Much as the idea of another wife doesn’t appeal to me personally. My personal preferences shouldn’t be forced on someone that does want to live that way. Provided of course that ALL parties in the polygamous marriage are knowingly and voluntarily entering that relationship.
      Incest on the other hand has a medical argument against it, in that offspring of incestuous relationships are far more likely to suffer a range of genetic abnormalities. The reason for not allowing beastial marriage is in a way the same reason we don’t allow under 18’s to marry (without parental consent) and that’s because a non-human or a minor are not able to voluntarily enter a legal contract which marriage is.

      As far as the current political situation goes, same sex marriage falls into the same bucket as voluntary euthanasia, as long as both parties continue to block the reforms, neither will ever be forced to actually take notice of what the population feels is the correct course of action, in fact, they don’t even need to ask us because it will never be an election issue.

    • Jake Zanoni says:

      03:39pm | 21/08/09

      “Most morality is of course, an invention of society. What I can say for that however is that something becomes immoral where ones liberties start to infringe upon anothers personal security, and when something is done by a person to another person against their consent. I am yet to hear an argument by anybody who is not a fruitcake which contests this notion that it is immoral to inflict harm on another human being against their consent.”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights-theorist_school_of_the_libertarian_movement

      There must be a lot of nutcases in the world then, because I consider my fellow libertarians and I to be very much in the minority (perhaps all harm is equal, but some harm is more equal than others wink).

    • Darin says:

      03:55pm | 21/08/09

      Margaret Gray

      Currently, gay relationships have (or will have) equal recognition in taxation, most welfare benefits, health, superannuation, and aged care.

      However, discrimination still occurs in immigration, access to family court, and adoption (I think most people would agree this is relevant where a partner has children from a previous heterosexual relationship). The ability to have relationships legally recognised varies, with the ACT, Victoria and Tasmania having differing levels of recognition, while the other states and the Northern Territory have no mechanism of recognising gay relationships.

      Generally, gay relationships are only afforded recognition of the rights that are available to de facto relationships. I think most people recognise the differences between what is available to a heterosexual couple that are in a defacto relationship, compared to those in a legal marriage.

      I do not care whether it is called gay marriage or not. If people are concerned by the name, I am happy for it to be called something else. But so long as a legal gay union provides the same rights as a heterosexual marriage under the law, and that other areas of discrimation are removed.

    • Gibbot says:

      04:04pm | 21/08/09

      Hey Margaret - marriage has been around a lot longer than Christianity. Laying claim to something doesn’t automatically make it yours.

    • Jake Zanoni says:

      04:11pm | 21/08/09

      Polygamy is only ‘illegal’ in that polygamy refers to the legal instrument of marriage.  So it is hardly an argument against legalising gay marriage.

      That is the case for Australia, however interestingly in the US there are numerous jurisdictions were a polygamous type cohabitation is itself illegal.  This is a relic of the anti-morman laws.  As such, it is a crime in some jurisdictions for say two women and a man to simply live together in a relationship.

      Seems to me that that is a more worthy cause for change than gay marriage.

      Those who are scared above that government gay marriage will undermine marriage should realise that the problem is state involvement in marriage.  The Government has so much power that they now basically own the term in the minds of the people.  Let not the Government define marriage, let society (which is simply the sum of the individual transactions and interactions between individual people) define marriage.  A plurality of views will exist, as is the case now, and as it should be.  As they say, people have the right to be wrong wink.

    • kel says:

      04:29pm | 21/08/09

      Game, set & match Patrick!! :o) Well done!!

    • Paul H says:

      04:45pm | 21/08/09

      Oh Patrick Patrick Patrick many of your persuasion often use this ridiculously idiotic argument. Pleasure is an intrinsic component of the sex act , were it not so we would not be inclined to indulge in it and the survival of the race would be in dire peril. Many an act of “pleasure” has resulted in a little addition to the human race and not always unwanted. It is the triumph of mother nature as she intended it.

      Were your foolish argument to hold water we would be equipped with a switch on the side of our neck that could be set to “procreation” or “pleasure” but alas there is no such thing unless elites of your political and personal persuasion are so advantaged. I guess the switch for homosexuals can only ever be set to pleasure!

      Every act of heterosexual sex carries a not insignificant chance of generating a new life unless and we are forced to use external mechanical or chemical man made means to reduce or prevent it!
      It is not about whether I only have sex for procreation but recognising the fact that the sex act was designed by nature primarily for procreation, any other variation is simply degenerate!

      Your next argument please!

    • Ben says:

      05:53pm | 21/08/09

      Your right Kate, if what I wanted was a public endorsement from society of and I don’t really care that much about the nature of the ceremony that cemented the commitment to the person that I loved then I wouldn’t care about the semantics.
      It’s one of those strange quirks that people use ‘semantics’ to downplay the importance of something but semanitcs refers to the meaning of a word. I’m sure Kate if you did care you wouldn’t want the meaning of something dismissed. As you can probably see is that great many people care about the meaning of the word marriage its context and meaning.
      Btw you must be living in a particularly homophobic place where people routinely call you and your partner disgusting, immoral, depraved and wrong and where you are afraid to hold your partner’s hand for fear of retribution no less! There I was thinking that we live in a rather tolerant society where most people wouldn’t think twice at the sight of you and your beloved strolling along never mind stopping everything to blast you publicly with abuse. While I admit that I haven’t seen to many people rush over to congratulate some lesbians or gay men kissing or holding hands, I haven’t seen them burnt at the stake or stoned to death either and while I’m unsure of your views on this subject, I’m also aware the what was once tritely referred to as lipstick lesbianism is still rather chic. Kate we have a special section for you in JB Hi Fi!!!
      Really Kate are you auditioning for Daffyd’s role in Little Britain?
      Patrick - isn’t the whole ‘I have a right to do what I want as long as no one else is hurt or their liberties infringed’ a bit Libertarianism 101? Most have got past Aryn Rand and can appreciate that the actions of individuals can have an impact on other individuals now and/or in the future because of the impact our actions can have on the nature of the society we live in.
      While I agree the whole incest thing is just offensive and undergraduate in its attempt to make the ‘slippery slope’ argument, I don’t think it is unreasonable to argue that the the issue of gay marriage touches on the sort of society we wish to live in and naturally that tends to affect rather a lot of us as I’m others arguing in favour of gay marriage would agree.

    • Paul says:

      06:01pm | 21/08/09

      Two comments:
      1. a topic guaranteed to get traffic to this site (the cynics view)
      2. part of the definition of marriage includes procreation using natural means (haven’t seen much natural procreation between gay couples recently!)

    • Marty says:

      08:42pm | 21/08/09

      Gay people should be allowed to be as unhappy as the rest of us - let them marry!

    • Vicki PS says:

      08:55pm | 21/08/09

      I like the suggestion that marriage and legal union should become separate institutions.  Remove the religious concept of marriage from the law and leave it to those who desire it: make legal union available to any couple desiring to make a commitment to an exclusive relationship.
      For those wondering why gay couples “need” marriage, take a look at the discriminatory treatment gay couples get under our immigration law, for just one example.  A much-loved nephew of mine (who travels a great deal for his work) has had two relationships founder because of insuperable immigration hurdles.

    • Paul H says:

      11:30pm | 21/08/09

      Patrick, as a nice little rejoinder to your ridiculously stupid argument can you guarantee me that those opressive repulsive hetero folk that indulge in a little naughty intimacy purely for pleasure don’t end up with a little procreating? Understand where I’m coming from? As I said the two are inseperable.

    • Dan says:

      11:54pm | 21/08/09

      Laruence, on 11:43, says that Polygmay by having three people get marriad is ‘directly violating the idea of two people marrying, as it was originally’ yet is for gay marriage, thus proving the inconsistency and hyppocrisies that people perpetrate. It’s okay to have two men or two women get married, but three people (or four or five etc..), no that’s crossing the line.

      ANYONE should get married, whether they be gay, straight, two people or three people. If you’re in favour of gay marriage, then you can’t be opposed to polygamy. If you are, then you’re a hypocrite.

    • Bob says:

      12:10am | 22/08/09

      Paul H
      Not sure what sex ed class you took, maybe it is a more educated one than mine. So please tell us how they explained that it is possible to produce offspring from oral sex.

    • Bob says:

      12:13am | 22/08/09

      Dan
      Why should we be opposed to polygamy? What is your basis for your opposition provided it is between consenting adults?

    • Patrick says:

      01:25am | 22/08/09

      Paul H, you cannot attempt to apply Human morality to the the randomness of nature, saying that one “aspect” of nature is right whereas an abberation is “wrong”. Morality in the human sense is purely a human concept, and long before our laws, religions and ideals came into being, what happened in nature simply happened.

      That homosexuality occurs at all should be evidence enough that it does occur naturally…otherwise, it would not happen, correct? That it occurs naturally does not make it right, however it also does not make it wrong, because right and wrong cannot be applied to the law of the jungle.

      Similarly, that something is an abberation of"nature”, whatever that is, this does not make something “right” or “wrong”, it simply makes it different, and the thing is, nature is constantly mutating and evolving in different directions, so nature is constantly “abberating, and again, that these abberations occur at all is evidence enough that they are a product of nature itself.

      In any event, you cannot apply morality, designed for ordered human societies, to the randomness of nature, which has no concious design in the way it evolves. To claim that something is “right” or “wrong” because it is natural or un natural first of all does not make sense because A:, if something is unnatural, it would not occur at all, even human inventions are a natural progression, being a byproduct of naturally evolving human beings themselves, and because B: “Nature” has existed long before your concepts of right and wrong where invented and it does not have a will, and therefore you cannot judge its direction one way or another to be “moral” or “immoral”

    • Ron says:

      09:28am | 22/08/09

      Patrick, I could drive a truck through the hole in that logic. Nature is everywhere, and nature is random, so by your ‘logic’, you can’t apply human morality anywhere.

      Just the kind of worldview I would expect from a graduate in ‘Queer Theory’.
      The essence of an ordered society is that it clings to a morality, even if that morality evolves over time. Otherwise murder, rape, and other implusive, ‘random’ acts of behaviour would not be judged at all.

      Society is defined by the moral standards it enforces. There are places in this world where homosexuality gets you a noose around the neck and a public viewing. On the other side of the world you can march with thousands of other homosexuals. According to you, since they occur at all,  these standards are both natural - are they both acceptable to you?

    • Gibbot says:

      11:38am | 22/08/09

      Ron - you’re right on one point. Society is defined by its moral standards - which is why the most primitive and barbaric societies are generally theocracies. One of the most beautiful aspects of our democracy is that we evolve to reflect the moral consensus of the population, as opposed to reflecting the dogma of the past.

      Polls clearly indicate that the majority of Australians are either in favour of, or have no objection to gay marriage, and rightly so. There is no logical argument against it, merely theocratic nonsense and prejudice poorly disguised as moral concern.

      Gay marriage will happen. It is inevitable. It is the will of the people. The sooner our politicians realise that religious lobby groups represent an out of touch (although vocal) minority, the better.

    • Patrick says:

      12:21pm | 22/08/09

      No Ron, that is not what I am saying at all, what I am saying is that the argument against homosexuality based on the “it’s un natural and against the law of nature and therefore bad” is a farce, because first, nothing is un natural if it occurs, and secondly, because nature has no morality. Who is Paul H to decide what is desirable and undesirable from nature, what should be “eliminated” and what should not? If he is going to make a moral judgment on it about why it is bad, it has to be based on human conventions, not on “the law of nature”, because the law of nature has no morality.

      As you have stated, if simply following the law of nature, free of any morality, then one could walk down the street and kill whoever one likes without guilt of consequence, but that is not how human society works, we have invented our own morality. What you consider to be “good”, or “bad”, “right” or “wrong” has to be defined by human society and conventions, not “the law of nature”.

      Judge it for whatever reasons you will, but leave out the procreation law of the jungle rubbish.

    • exumbrerum says:

      12:33pm | 22/08/09

      Patrick said:

      That homosexuality occurs at all should be evidence enough that it does occur naturally…otherwise, it would not happen, correct?

      That’s a thoroughly ridiculous argument. That’s like arguing that crystal meth occurs naturally as well - otherwise it wouldn’t exist, correct?


      Gibbot said:

      Gay marriage will happen. It is inevitable. It is the will of the people. The sooner our politicians realise that religious lobby groups represent an out of touch (although vocal) minority, the better.


      Another ridiculous argument - if gay marriage was the “will of the people”, the people would have elected politicians that held this as a primary concern - the fact that they did not is indicative of the fact that the people either do not value gay marriage at all, or value other political platforms more highly. Either way, this demonstrates that legalising gay marriage is not a strong desire of the majority.

    • Andy says:

      03:03pm | 22/08/09

      Why keep flogging a dead horse? Gay marriage wont happen as it isn’t the will of the people, its the will of a minority group and their supporters. Civil union with the same rights? sure why not doesn’t worry me but it keeps coming down to the fact that the gay lobby wants the term marriage as some sort of victory flag.

    • Michael says:

      04:17pm | 22/08/09

      Just because the majority of people aren’t gay doesn’t mean they don’t support gay marriage.

      Basically only the Ultra-Right wing religious nuts have a problem with it. There the ones who should be discriminated against for thinking that they are superior morally to us. Religion is the single greatest factor that holds our society back - ethically and scientifically. Personally I believe being religious (Christian, Muslim, Hindu, ect.) should make you ineligible to vote or hold office.

    • Helen D says:

      04:19pm | 22/08/09

      exumbrerum said:
      if gay marriage was the “will of the people”, the people would have elected politicians that held this as a primary concern.

      Rubbish. That’s saying that we elect our leaders on a single issue. There are so many more reasons and policies that we base our vote on and to narrow it down to one single thing is reductive and unrealistic.

      To those saying that marriage is inextricably linked to religion and can never be seperated, that is also wrong. Many many people get married by a civil celebrant and it is called a marraige. My non-religious friends are not ‘civilly unionised’. They are married. Marraige may have come from religion but it is now as secular as anything else. If you want marraige to be exclusively a religious institution then you should be lobbying for all secular marraiges to be renamed.
      In all honesty, tell me exactly how it would even affect your life, let alone hurt you, to allow gay marraige? You wouldn’t even notice. There is no harmful consequence to person or society in allowing other human beings the same rights as everyone else.

      What harm will it do to allow two loving people to declare their partnership to society and be seen as the same in all legal aspects as any other couple?

      Please answer these question without referring to 1. the slippery slope (enough people have argued against this swiss-cheese argument), and 2. Children (as there are plenty of childless heterosexual couples AND miserable children of regular marriages).

    • Liu Ye says:

      04:37pm | 22/08/09

      Fantastic article and couldn’t agree more. The sanctity of marriage IS nonsense, that’s why I married myself.

    • Lisa says:

      06:39pm | 22/08/09

      Gays can do what they want but dont call it Marriage.  Come up with your own term for it.

    • Paul H says:

      11:24pm | 22/08/09

      OK Patrick I understand the ridiculousness of your argument. So essentially as long as something happens it cannot be “unnatural” because it exists right? And that Patrick is the only argument homosexuals can offer because to place homosexuality above every other sexual preference is to defeat the argument for homosexual marriage right? That is, there is absolutely no morality except as defined by the changing mores and attitudes of the general population. If morality does not exist and there is no such thing as “unnatural”  then we have to open the argument up and push for every type of relationship “abberation” as I have stated before because they “exist” and are therefore natural.

      So lets be brave Patrick and take that to the public and see whether they will swallow it. I wonder how many folk would agree to allowing marriage to be between a man and a pig or a woman and a horse? So lets cut to the chase Mr Kleim and start rallying for the abolition of the “narrow definition” ie marriage to be between a man and a woman and allow it to be whatever your imagination desires! Lets see how many stupid unthinking halfwitted Aussies would rally to that war cry!! And to the idiots that believe that animals cannot consent to sexual relations with humans you must be inner city types that have never owned a dog or watched that stupid video hits show on TV!
      And if nature is constantly “abberating” Patrick then why hasn’t sex evolved to accomodate those of a homosexual persuasion?  The last time I checked the only way to procreate for the past two million years was through heterosexual intercourse or I am looking at the wrong species?  If everything in nature was purely by chance bereft of design intent then surely there would be an almost infinite no of ways to procreate!  But looking at procreation it seems pretty damned well clear to me that nature intended procreation to be accomplished by one means and one means only - and for mammals was that via sex and heterosexual sex at that!

      And just to top it off it takes far greater faith to believe we have come to exist through evolution than through Adam and Eve. If the theory of evolution was a physics theory fellow physicists would laugh their head off at the paucity of evidence and give you a good walloping!

      Keep trying fella beat again!

    • Gibbot says:

      12:16am | 23/08/09

      It’s always a good idea when making claims regarding public perception to be able to substantiate them.

      Here’s the ever amazing Possum Comitatus with the reality:

      http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2009/06/25/same-sex-marriage/

      It is not conjecture or belief. It is statistical fact. I found the correlation between income and support for same sex marriage to be particularly interesting, although the fact that the one and only demographic that bucked the trend is the over 50 year olds is also very telling.

      For those that won’t bother following the link, I’ll summarise.

      A total across all demographics of 61% answered in the affirmative to the question “Do you agree or disagree that same sex couples should be able to marry in Australia?”
      Even accounting for margin of error, to quote Possum:

      “[T]he one thing the results clearly show is our political representatives are far, far behind the curve of public opinion when it comes to the legal recognition of same sex marriages in Australia.”

      With respect, Exumbrerum, our preferential voting system is capable of electing unrepresentative buffoons like Senator Fielding on less than 2% of the primary vote. Your argument reflects a naivete that would be almost charming if it wasn’t advocating discrimination. Fortunately however, you’re part of an ever diminishing minority.

      Not to worry though. When same sex marriage does pass into law you will be affected precisely as much as I will, which is not at all.

    • Dan says:

      12:29am | 23/08/09

      Bob (12:13am), I’m not opposed to polygamy. On the contrary, I think it should be allowed, just as I think all forms of marriage should be allowed. I just think it’s hypocritical that many who support gay marriage oppose polymagy.

    • cade says:

      09:30am | 23/08/09

      The “sacred wedding” happens in a church as the first step of marriage, between a man and a women. This Christian/etc.-based definition has been adequate and there is no need to change it. Why complicate things ?
      For example, marriage also implies the potential for natural pro-creation and this latter phenomenon is not available for same-sex relationships. Part of the sacredness of the wedding concerns the belief of the procession of the Holy Spirit due to the coming together of the two opposites; man and female.


      If two male or two female persons feel “love” and want to unite for a long-standing relationship then do it under a different banner and thus not taint the well established ritual of the “sacred wedding”.

      Consider the “civil union” term instead of attempting to morph words like “marriage” and “wedding” away from their traditional heterosexual basis.

    • exumbrerum says:

      01:23pm | 23/08/09

      Gibbot said:

      With respect, Exumbrerum, our preferential voting system is capable of electing unrepresentative buffoons like Senator Fielding on less than 2% of the primary vote. Your argument reflects a naivete that would be almost charming if it wasn’t advocating discrimination.

      Not at all - I recognise that politicians are not elected on a single issue - however, I would contend that if legalising gay marriage was that important to you, it would be the sole issue upon which you (and the rest of the “majority”) would cast their vote - the fact that it has not been legalised so far indicates that it is just not that important. You could take a leaf out of Michael J. Fox’s political stance - he has endorsed and lobbied for a wide range of politicians on both sides of the political table, but with the common goal of supporting stem cell research - because that is what is most important to him. He simply doesn’t care about anything else as much.

      That is what marriage is to those of us who still hold it sacred above all else.  I would not sacrifice my marriage for any other consideration. It seems as though the “majority” of Australians that allegedly support your view ar prepared to sell it for a mess of pottage as it were - lower taxes, better schools and roads, whatever.

      Helen D said:

      What harm will it do to allow two loving people to declare their partnership to society and be seen as the same in all legal aspects as any other couple?

      Please answer these question without referring to 1. the slippery slope (enough people have argued against this swiss-cheese argument), and 2. Children (as there are plenty of childless heterosexual couples AND miserable children of regular marriages).


      It does me no harm whatsoever, as I have previously stated - unless you want to label it a marriage. If you held something sacred, you would understand why this is - so let me explain. Imagine someone who knew was to gain possession of a diseased dog and name it “Helen D”. You may simply be able to shrug it off and ignore the desecration of your name. But, not content with that, the same individual lobbied parliament (along with other like-minded individuals) to rename ALL diseased dogs as “Helen Ds”. Would you not find that personally offensive?

      The counter argument and questions that I would challenge you to answer would be; why legalise gay marriage? The most vocal arguments have discussed a public commitment ceremony and equal legal rights. YOU CAN HAVE THOSE THINGS ALREADY! Why do you feel the need to take something that is meaningless to you, but more precious that gold to me? What does marriage mean to you - because it is so much more than legal rights, love and a big party to me. Please answer this question without referring to me as homophobic - I am not afraid, nor do I despise homosexuals. I simply acknowledge this as a lifestyle choice which is incompatible with the institution of marriage.

    • Helen D says:

      03:06pm | 23/08/09

      exumbrerum how do you expect me to take you seriously as not homophobic when you liken homosexuality to a diseased dog?

      And they don’t have all the same legal rights. That’s the point. Do your research.

      I value marraige and the sanctity of it. I just don’t think that two people getting married who happen to be of the same sex damage the institition. Unlike divorce, adultery, or domestic abuse.
      Marraige is a beautiful thing between two loving people and I don’t think we should restrict other human beings from it. It’s far from meaningless to them.

    • Chase Stevens says:

      09:39pm | 23/08/09

      I can only see the propoents of gay marriage getting what they want when the generations that don’t have the insecurities and prejudices against homosexuals ingrained into their psyche take control of the country.

      Marriage in it’s current form is an out-dated institution.

    • Ivan Reid says:

      12:17am | 24/08/09

      My vote is to keep marriage heterosexual. If an independent and statistically valid survey showed the majority of Australians support same-sex marriage, I would not oppose it. Until then, supporters of homosexual marriage can continue voicing their opinion, just as I will continue to voice mine.

    • Scott Glennon says:

      11:18am | 24/08/09

      Marriage… In my opinion, just a word… If Australia doesn’t wish to share it we’ll make our own word up for it… But you have to let us! Then we can compare the two, decide which works best and ditch the failing one…
      However if our government doesn’t want marriage to be used by same sex couples, why block civil union legislation? Is that almost discriminatory?
      My biggest complaint is that all you greedy hedro’s that invite my partner and I to your engagement party, wedding, bucks night and kids birthdays expect us to buy you crap. It’d be nice to have someone spend a hundie on us for a change.

    • Hopium says:

      05:54pm | 24/08/09

      You know what? I find the comments that ‘marriage is for procreation’ offensive.
      I’m married (not gay) and I can’t have kids.
      So am I suddenly un-married?

      How about the definition be changed to: “between two consenting adults”
      Of course you’d have to define the terms but it seems perfectly reasonable yes?
      If you don’t want gay marriages in your church…. so be it.

      But please, let them get married in a park, or a beach or a pub if they really want to.

      I have a very selfish reason. I want my best bud to have the same look on her face when she marries her beloved. I want her to know that my relationship is equal to hers.

    • Mr M says:

      10:21pm | 24/08/09

      Marriage has long been an institution for Man and Woman, it has been successful in providing a base for families to grow and prosper.
      those on the outside of Marriage look at it and envy the security of Marriage and want it for themselves, yet they do not fully understand it, and they are doomed to fail.
      Making ‘Marriage’ legally available for Gays and Lesbians degrades the concept of Marriage to the extent that it no longer has it’s original meaning. In time, the Gays and Lesbians will find their ‘legal’ marriage has no value.
      Be satisfied with the tolerance society has provided. Continue to push for Gay / Lesbian marriage and society will reject you more absolutely than ever imagined previously.

    • cat says:

      12:13am | 25/08/09

      @Mr M
      I totally agree with you.
      Why do gays want a religious ceremony, when they obviously do not believe in what the/any church/religion stands for? They all say it’s about ‘our rights’, then why so desperate to be joined in HOLY matrimony - when homosexuality is against all that the HOLY stands for? Aren’t you all being a bit two-faced? Yes I am anti-homosexuality and saying that it’s ok to be gay just to avoid arguments is not my style. Some people spinelessly agree with it because they don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings or appear judgemental.

    • Voxpop says:

      03:09pm | 25/08/09

      Marriage doesn’t have to be about religion at all (unless you choose so) it is a legal document that affords the couple rights and protections as well as obligations.
      I’ve been to countless weddings and most have been outside of a church but even the ones inside the church have been for couples that don’t identify themselves as religious.
      I agree fully that same sex couples should have every right to be recognised legally as married.  As for being married ‘under the eyes of god’ leave that to the religious fundies - they’re the ones who should adapt a different name to show off their religious ferver as most within this secular society see marriage as being the civil union recognised by govt not god.
      Best quote from all this “Against Gay Marriage: Then Don’t Have One”.  Really just get your nose out of other people’s personal affairs.

      And as far as the Census goes I have always put down that I’m Catholic (because I was baptised) yet am as athiest as one could be after going through catholic schools and seeing the mindless concensus of thought.  My tip to all is to be conscious of what message that sends the govt and stop ticking the box if you don’t want the religious right to hold our govt to ransom.  A lot of people still identify with a religion in this instance but would describe themselves as non-practicing.
      I have never held much faith in marriage to be all that everyone thinks of it and I think that in the same way that religion can be a crutch for people marriage can be too.  So at 40 years of age I have never been married though I have consented to marry my partner of 15 years.  As I plan my wedding I can assure you it will have nothing to do with religion and gasp horror I don’t and never have intended to have children - so what am I getting married for?  Well I love and respect my partner and want to show that we are commited to each other.  And I want my gay friends to be able to do the same.

    • Voxpop says:

      03:35pm | 25/08/09

      I don’t agree with the ridiculous arguments about polygammy and incest.

      How about looking at it through the prism of something that has already happened.  Take slavery for instance - I’m sure we all agree now that slavery is and was wrong.  However during the time and process it took to end slavery there were a great many people that supported it.  Now using the slippery slope thing those people may have argued that it would spell the end of farming.  Ridiculous I know but you see if you give black people freedom where they cannot be owned by someone and made to work in ‘them there cotton fields’ then one day horses and other usefull animals will get the same concessions and they won’t have to be made to wear a harness and plow the feild for instance.
      That is exactly how stupid some of your arguments sound :-(

    • stu says:

      05:45pm | 25/08/09

      The reference to Proposition 8 in California really does undermine your argument. They put it to the people for a vote and the people voted NOT to allow gay marriage. Isn’t that why we live in a democracy? If the majority of people don’t agree with the notion, then you can’t get much fairer than that. If you want to put it to the people you have to be prepared to accept the result. I wonder what would happen if we had a similar referendum here in Australia? Would people be prepared to accept the result? Somehow I doubt it, cos I have a feeling that the result would be the same as California.

    • Kate says:

      08:24pm | 25/08/09

      Doesn’t heterosexual divorce cheapen the “sanctity” of marriage? Isn’t it supposed to be for life? It was until Henry decided he wanted attempt to produce offspring from a few more women as was too lazy to kill his first wife. And there we have it - traditions change.
      As long as people are having quickie vegas weddings and divorces, I have no problem with homosexual couples getting married who actually intend to make a life long commitment. Don’t pretend hetero people have a lock on the “sanctity” of marriage.

    • Darryl Price says:

      09:48pm | 25/08/09

      Marriage is a man and a woman. The word is still our word. Have your legally recognised union but call it something else - ecstatic, blest, elated, contented etc.
      If the sanctity of marriage (there’s our word again) is a joke or nonexistent, why do gay people want it? And why will breaking down the definitions and letting anyone have at it sanctify the state of marriage.
      I’ve said all this before on here. But we need to hold the line before the message of the vocal minority and their counterparts, the latte quaffing hetero-apologists get some cut through.

    • Alan says:

      11:39pm | 25/08/09

      After reading through all these comments.. all I have in response is Wow.. Just wow.

      Now my standpoint I want to share.  I went to a catholic primary school.  And a catholic high school.  I would definitly say I have christian values.  You know what, I’m Gay.  I didn’t choose to be.  I’m not out. I dont ‘practice’ homosexuality, instead I’ve bricked myself in and so far have had a very lonely experience in life.  Hell, the way I have been raised I have more often than not wish things were different - that I wasn’t gay.  I’ve attempted suicide over this issue.  I could say it’s the worst thing about my life.

      I wish for nothing more to get married and have my own family - the life that I have been raised to believe is the right way.  But I’ve been growing up knowing that this will never happen for me.  I didn’t choose this, I’ve even considered trying to make myself straight, to have a ‘sham relationship’ and have kids.  But the thing is, that would be a lie, dishonesty is a value I dont excatly hold close…  I wouldn’t be listening to my mind, my heart or my body. 

      Can’t you people just understand that gay people just want to be happy?  (kind of ironic that gay means happy)

    • alan says:

      06:59am | 26/08/09

      I’m not gay, but I’m willing to learn! Apparently 0.2 per cent of children born in Australia are hermaphrodite.  I suggest it’s wrong to discriminate against them.  They are human and still have rights regardless of how homophobic the rest of us might be.

 

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