Much of the public commentary around the Qantas dispute has been so undergraduate that you would think it had been authored by the people at Occupy Wall Street. But it is Qantas itself which invited much of the negative coverage by not thinking through its tactics last week ahead of the dramatic events of the weekend.

Let me run this airline. Photo: Nic Gibson

This dispute has at its centre a pretty simple question – does Qantas management have the right to manage Qantas? Or should Tony Sheldon from the Transport Workers Union have veto power over everything from how many staff the airline employs, when and where its aircraft hangars are built, who maintains its fleet, to whether it is allowed to expand into Asia?

I am not an aviation writer but at a guess I would say that as a former senior executive at Aer Lingus and the successfully expansionist boss of the fledgling airline Jetstar, Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce knows a bit more about running airlines than Tony Sheldon.

There are a couple of unpleasant realities about modern business which, if ignored, mean that businesses will not succeed. The first is that in an open market place big businesses have to pay the going rate for chief executives. The second is that in a globalised economy smaller nations such as Australia can no longer afford to get misty-eyed about national brands operating in the manner they have always operated.

They are competing with businesses from all over the world which do things smarter, or at least cheaper, and if we fail to adapt they will simply price themselves out of being profitable.

In assessing the quality of the debate around Qantas’ actions this past 72 hours, it is Qantas itself which should shoulder much of the blame for the negative coverage it has received. In a public relations sense, there were three significant mistakes the airline and its boss made which earned it much of the flak it has received.

The first goes to Joyce’s salary. If Alan Joyce knew, as he obviously did, that the spectacular option of a staff lockout and a full grounding was on the cards, he could have managed the question of his own pay much more cleverly. Mr Joyce’s salary might be, as I said, the going rate for CEOs, but it does not alter the undeniable fact that many people regard the going rate as unjustifiable and obscene. His decision to accept a 71 per cent, $2 million payrise just days before escalating this dispute was tactically unintelligent.

There are precedents from big business as to how bosses can use their salary as a positive, none greater than the legendary CEO of Chrysler, Lee Iacocca, who in 1978 paid himself $1 a year as he embarked on a painful but necessary restructure of the car company in which thousands of jobs were lost. Joyce did not need to do anything that drastic but if he rejected his 71 per cent rise he would have looked selfless and could have brought more members of the public and his staff along with him. 

Because he failed to do so this dispute is now entrenched in the public mind as a battle over pay, with a lavishly remunerated foreigner pitted against dinki-di Aussies on the bones of their behinds, even though it is not a battle about pay at all.

The second error was the decision to ground the flights with no warning, which made the dispute look less like a battle with the unions and more of a general attack on the travelling public, with 68,000 people (this one included) booked on flights in the past three days and still none the wiser as to when they will be leaving.

The third and most serious tactical error was that Qantas had failed to make the case fully in the public’s mind as to how deep and dangerous is the unions’ intransigence towards reform. When Joyce said on Saturday that the unions were killing the airline slowly, it would probably have come as a surprise to most Australians given that its profits rose last year, that it is generally very reliable, very safe, a genuine super-brand which is admired around the world.

This was the difference between this planned lockout and the actions of Patricks stevedores in 1998. When Chris Corrigan used so-called scab labour against the Maritime Union and the Howard Government cheered him on as the dogs were literally unleashed on unionised workers, the public already regarded the wharfies and their union as a militant obstacle to the kind of productivity-based industrial change which workers in every other industry had been forced to embrace.

There is not the same level of antipathy towards the unions in the Qantas context because until this weekend Joyce and the airline had not done enough to explain the type of changes they needed to implement, and the unions’ role in thwarting those changes. 

Predictably enough both sides of the dispute claimed a victory of sorts after yesterday morning’s Fair Work Australia ruling putting an end to industrial action. Tony Sheldon is on a loop saying that Joyce has “trashed the brand”. What Sheldon fails to understand is that this brand has grown and been nurtured over 90 years and will probably survive a couple of days of chaos at the behest of a very combative CEO, who is playing a much longer game here than the unions are.

Joyce is banking on the fact that, in modern and largely un-unionised Australia, he can ultimately bring the public and his staff with him in his determination to run the airline himself. That is what this dispute is about.

And in Alan Joyce’s case, that’s why they pay him the big bucks.

329 comments

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    • sleepless in sydney says:

      09:46pm | 05/11/11

      David, disappointed in your observation as to what transpires for Australian workers, we should look to Norway as to their mature attitude to keeping their country at the top of the leaderboard .. at least they have a vision for their people and their assets from mining rathre than denigrate the living standards of those who don’t write their own paycheque - or have the ‘board ’ do it for you!!!!  (go do your homework)
      To whoever commented on Mr turdy tree and a turd making less than a pilot..  a pilot would have to be earning over $1370 per hour for 10 hours a day 365 days a year to be earning the same wage… (given the radiation, pressurisation, dehydration, timezones, lack of control over their rostered time away from families, regular proficiency checks ( when did you last sit for one of those Mr.Joyce?)  flying over countries where air traffic control commands are given in English as a second language , ... oh, ok they are accustomed to that with their current CEO…hmmmm you do the year 5 maths.!!!  should he really be running a company??
      Can someone please explain why CEOs / Board members deserve first world salaries whilst workers are compared to 3rd world wages….The CEO of JAL (last I heard was paid $90,000 a year, and said that Japan had learnt their lesson from the last financial recession)  grow up Australia, we all know the Capitalist model from the US is a furphy so why try following it when we KNOW it doesn’t work…

    • mark says:

      12:08pm | 07/11/11

      so you support the mobilisation of Qantas maintenance services of shore or not? kinda hypocritical to complain about Joyces salary being X times biger than those staff on the ground, when those staff get paid X times the person in india just as qualified to do the same job. If you are anti-Capitalist, you need to direct your rage to all players in the game, not just the MVP of the team.

    • Walter Adamson says:

      08:52am | 04/11/11

      The views here represent all sections of the spectrum, and we did some measurements across all the social and news and discussion channels to see how the move was perceived across a big audience.

      For example can you imagine that in the days covering the grounding there were about 180,000 tweets about it which ultimately multiplied into 280 MILLION “impressions” across those media channels.

      You can read more at http://igo2group.com.au/blog/will-qantas-now-take-the-social-business-leap/

      Walter @adamson

    • Jay says:

      12:50pm | 03/11/11

      Col,
      QANTAS has offered pay increases to all of the workers and that has not been the issue. The maintenance of the planes is where we cannot compete as it is 50% cheaper in Asia. Cabin crew will probably be offloaded to Asia as well. It’s like everything else in this country that has disappeared. Why is QANTAS any different? If Australians want to change it then fly QANTAS and pay 50% more for your ticket. It won’t happen.Get used to it and move on.

    • Col Sanderes says:

      03:23pm | 02/11/11

      (Costs in Asia are half the price.Get into the future guys and get your members to work hard.)  That is hilarious!  You can work as hard as you like for a third of the price but some CEO will still outsource your job in the name of profit. Have you ever worked in Asia Jay? I have, It is possible to hire a person to hold something ‘cheaper’ than renting a piece of equipment to do so.

    • Cate says:

      03:08pm | 02/11/11

      CAN EVERYONE READ “THE MEN WHO KILLED QANTAS”  PLEASE I BEG YOU.
      By the way I do not like the Government and I do not like the Qantas Board.  They are both deceiptful.  What does this mean?
      Ah Ha -  It means there are grey areas. What you see is not what you get.
      Do two negatives make a positive? Yes. Get rid of the Qantas board and get rid of the Federal Government.  This would be the best outcome I can think of. Whew!! That was hard.
      Rights of workers are not necessarily a Labor stronghold, nor is business necessarily a Liberal stronghold.
      RE - a precedent Ansett Airlines. We know what happend to it don’t we (or those who were our of nappies at that time)
      The Dispute witnessed the formation of an alliance involving the then joint Managing Director of Ansett Airlines, Sir Peter Abeles, his close friend, the then Prime Minister of Australia, Mr Bob Hawke and to a lesser extent senior people associated with:- the Hawke Government, the Australian Council of Trade Unions (ACTU), the Industrial Relations Commission (IRC) and senior airline management from both the major domestic airlines. This alliance was aligned against the Pilots. 3

      The formation of this alliance led to the unprecedented situation of the extensive resources of two multinational corporations (TNT and Newscorp, the joint owners of Ansett) being combined with the Australian Federal Government’s power and influence. This alliance resulted in a significant amount of public resources being made available to a private corporation to fight, what would appear to be, the private industrial dispute of one man, Sir Peter Abeles, the then joint Managing Director of Ansett Airlines.

      The consequent tangible and intangible support flowing from this alliance facilitated the occurrence of, among other things, the following circumstances.

      The Hawke Government’s support for Sir Peter Abeles’ actions throughout the Dispute would appear to have been generally unquestioned. To this end, Prime Minister Hawke publicly declared “war” on the Pilots and enthusiastically endorsed Sir Peter Abeles’ decisions to:-

      Embark on a policy of point blank refusal to negotiate or even discuss the pay claim with the Pilots’ Federation. (This was unprecedented in any industrial dispute in Australia. At no stage, throughout the course of this dispute, were negotiations without preconditions ever conducted.)


      Embark on a policy of outright refusal to recognise that the Pilots’ Federation represented the Pilots. (This was part of a strategy to force pilots to return to work on individual contracts.) 4


      Shut down the airline system early in the Pilots’ 9 to 5 campaign, despite the acknowledgment by most independent observers that most airline passengers were able to reach their destinations, albeit with some delay.


      Stand down the Pilots, then sack and serve writs on individual pilots in the first week of the Dispute. (This action forced the Pilots to resign en masse to protect their family homes and superannuation. The companies were then able to argue that “the Dispute was over” and that they were “now recruiting.” The companies advertised the Pilots’ jobs globally, the day following the resignations.)
      I knew the late Sir Peter Abeles very well and also by association knew Sue Hawke and Bob Hawke.  I have had no contact with Hawke since Sir Peter’s passing.

      So you see striking is not the realm or Labor Government.
      just an example.  It is not the party you follow it is who you know.

    • Jay says:

      02:11pm | 02/11/11

      I think Dick Smith summed it up well. Australians want a national carrier but don’t want to pay for it when they have to use it. Everyone is looking for the cheapest price as they should. So QANTAS has a decision to make. Die the death of a thousand cuts or make some hard decisions. The unions have this delusion that jobs in this day and age can somehow be guaranteed when engineering costs in Asia are half the price. Get into the future guys and get your members to work hard. Maybe if you linked Company profitability to bonuses you would get a better hearing from QANTAS management.Unions are an anchronism and they will not exist in the next 20 years.

    • Utopia Boy says:

      02:01pm | 02/11/11

      Joyce is indeed a foreigner. Qantas staff are indeed doing more with less, and watching the slack being taken up by cheap labour overseas. This isn’t new news.
      Joyce should not have taken the pay rise, particularly if he has faith in the “brand” and his role in redesigning it. Or else he could have taken it later in the year after he navigated the board out of their current problems.
      The national carrier should be protected by the federal government, and the jobs should remain in Australia. That doesn’t mean the unions then think it’s a free meal ticket. The staff need to feel a part of the organisation as well. Incentives? Free flights?
      Take a leaf out of Emirates and get back to doing what you are good at QANTAS.

    • onlooker says:

      10:10am | 02/11/11

      I don’t care what anyone earns, but to let its customers down was disgraceful. You expect the unions to disrupt things, none of us like it but we tolerate it. But for the airline to cause havok and disruption is just terrible

    • Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

      08:42am | 02/11/11

      The Australian dollar is severely distorted because of the mining boom which will continue many years. It is very good for us in Australia in many ways.

      But it means there is no long term future for QANTAS in Australia. It is time to plan to move its operational center in Asia. Malaysia is the best place to locate QANTAS operational center. QANTAS can negotiate for a 10 years tax free status to enable it to Re-locate to Malaysia.

      With Malaysia as HUB for Qantas is better as a traveler from Darwin say can change plane with QANTAS in Malaysia and go to London

    • Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

      09:56pm | 02/11/11

      @ Cate says: 11:43am | 02/11/11

      Thanks for your comments but please do not be so personal but focus on the issues I have raised.

      I have done more than my fair share for Australia. I do have a unique set of experiences and these have provided me a certain view of many LONG TERM issues for Australia. I do specialize in the Mathematics of Strategic Decision Making.

      I think the idea of somehow moving the operations of QANTAS to Asia strictly not mind as QANTAS Board have recently been discussing setting up a new airline based in Malaysia.

    • Cate says:

      10:43am | 02/11/11

      Sorry, Dr Goh,
      I understand your pride as as a Chinese Australian. You feel Asian parents have a higher expectation than Australian parents for a good education.  In that you are wrong.  Children in Australia have a good education, but they are also allowed to be children and have relaxation periods which are necessary for health of mind and body. On the topic of Qantas I really didn’t understand your logic.  I’m sure you have a reasoning though it was a little unclear.
      The best place for Qantas is in Australia.  There is a great long term future for Qantas in Australia.  I am absolutely amazed at the lack of support of our Country by people claiming to be citizens.  I suggest you also become a member of AusBuy.  It may help you understand the enormity of this Australian sell off to Asia or anywhere else for that matter.  This is Australia.  Qantas is Australian and the Goverment of the day should take back control of the Airline.  I certainly don’t want to live in a wasteland of abandonment called dead Australia.  I want primary industry, companies, inventions and everything else supported by Australians. I want our children to be paid the wage of a developed country not the wages of an underdeveloped country where the workers are dictated to and paid lousy wages and live in lousy conditions. If it is not too much to ask, why are you living in Asia? Perhaps you should stick to Malaysian Airlines. They are a good carrier and their hub is in Kuala Lumpur as it should be.
      If you prefer Asia, than I suggest you rethink your citizenship.  Australia is not Asia.
      I’m postive you are a responsible and clever man in your field with your PHd. I would use your brainpower to study the history of Qantas and its slow sneaky piecemeal sell off over the decades.
      Long life and happiness.

    • Col Sanders says:

      10:26am | 02/11/11

      No doubt QANTAS is moving off shore and much of the protest was about more loss of Aussie jobs but it is a fait accompli. However there has to be this subterfuge about grasping Australian unions and workers and competitiveness against the high Aussie dollar. Very low Asian living standards and wages are the deal, a baggage handler will probably make around $50.00 a week a pittance in Australia, you couldn’t even live on the street. Then tarmac and parking fees for aircraft,  maintenance, security, catering and all the labour intensive work surrounding aviation, you name it is much cheaper. But not much gain for Australia, Besides all the job losses in Australia there will be the tax loss as well.

    • Ian1 says:

      08:06am | 02/11/11

      Empty vessels make the most noise.  Bang on unions, bang on.

    • milo of Brizvegas says:

      06:47am | 02/11/11

      Are the people banging on about the Unions and it is not about jobs; Thick, don’t read or cannot read or so channelled in their bias nothing sinks in. Immediately after Qantas was ordered back into the air, CEO Alan Joyce said (Qantas could now get on with its plans to establish an Asian airline staffed by an Asian workforce) Those highly paid unionised thugs on twenty bucks an hour are about to be replaced by a four dollar an hour Asian.

    • PaxUs says:

      09:17pm | 01/11/11

      @Kurisu Sonsaku - Thanks for that unwarranted troll attack. There are ways to indicate your opinion without verbal name calling.  If you bothered to take the time to inform yourself about Mr Joyce’s 71% rise, you will find that it is not all in cash and has conditions attached, therefore it is safe to assume that the amount quoted within this article is extreme.

    • Alf says:

      09:00pm | 01/11/11

      The engineers union stated “don’t fly Qantas before Christmas”. Then a number of violent, anonymous threats were made to various Qantas executive staff. On top of this, the TWU then stated that they were going to “slow bake” Qantas.

      It is clear that the unions are out to destroy the Qantas brand.

    • Alf says:

      10:06am | 02/11/11

      @Willie. What sort of a dumb response is: - conservatives “making shit up”.

      Buy yourself a newspaper some time (they even have pictures).

    • marley says:

      06:01am | 02/11/11

      @Willie - well, I certainly remember Steve Purvinas telling people to find other airlines for Christmas.  And I also recall that noted lefty Fran Kelly stating that the unions had referred to “slow baking” Qantas.  You got any other denials or reality you want to make?

    • Willie Tanner says:

      09:31pm | 01/11/11

      Have any other made up stories?

      Seriously, conservatives just can’t help making shit up and outright lying. Guess you’re leader sets the tone for your lack of truthfulness.

    • Andrew says:

      08:47pm | 01/11/11

      This is a very biased piece of journalism that doesnt address any of the true causes of the Qantas dispute.

      The amounts the unions are requesting as a payrise are generally pretty low. 2.5% PER YEAR cannot be considered an outrageous claim. This is not the problem.

      The reason why this has stalled is a request for job security, based on the conditions of the Qantas sale act, which specified that Qantas must remain an australian airline with most of the work being performed here.

      Joyce is actively aiming to breach the intent of that sale act, and is doing it by falsifying the costs of Qantas to make it look less profitable by transferring costs from Jetstar to Qantas, such as making Qantas pay Jetstar’s gate fees, or by cross subsidising Jetstar’s flights by paying for over $6000 per Jetstar flight (a subsidy of over $25 million per year). By doing this he hopes to get agreement to tear up the conditions of the sale act and allow the extinction of Qantas as an Australian airline, or leave Qantas as nothing but a shell while Jetstar and all the new Qantas arms are not covered by the Sale act make greater profits while Qantas wears the cost..

      I’d strongly recommend you read what Senator Xenophon has to say on the issue:

      http://www.ozhouse.org/2011/10/30/qantas-finally-the-truth-is-coming-out/

    • marley says:

      01:28pm | 02/11/11

      @Cate - all routes are not profitable.  Qantas is losing 200 million dollars a year on its international routes.

    • Cate says:

      08:57am | 02/11/11

      Marley I understand your point of view.  However the company isn’t going broke.  All routes are profitable.  Qantas is being used as the cashcow for Jetstart.  It is a deliberate act by the Board to mislead the financial truth of the matter.  A full enquiry is needed to clear this up and make it known to the public. Once this happens then there will be no mystery nor need to discuss it further.  I am hoping it will come to this.  Qantas is being deliberately piecemealed. It has been going on for decades.
      Have you read the book “The Men Who Killed Qantas” ?

    • Freeman says:

      07:21am | 02/11/11

      Start with the facts, Andrew

      below from the SMH;


      What long-haul pilots want (Australian and International Pilots Association):

      Inclusion in new EBA of a Qantas flight/Qantas pilot clause.

      A 2.5 per cent pay increase, subject to negotiation.

      Pilots to work maximum hours allowable under Australian safety regulations.

      What Qantas says:

      AIPA wants Jetstar pilots to get the same pay and conditions as long-haul pilots. AIPA denies this.

      Union wants two free international economy tickets each year.

      Union wants funding for two full-time union officials at a cost of up to $1 million per year.

      What maintenance engineers want (Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association):

      Retention of maintenance work in Australia, instead of outsourcing it to the Philippines, Singapore and Hong Kong under a job security clause.

      A 3 per cent pay increase over three years.

      What Qantas says:

      ALAEA wants 5.33 per cent increase in wages.

      Union wants to keep existing work practices rather than accept changes that would improve productivity.

      What ground crew and baggage handlers want (Transport Workers Union):

      A restriction on the use of contract labour.

      The TWU website says it is awaiting a response from Qantas on its claim for a 5 per cent pay rise per year plus one per cent superannuation linked to inflation.

      What Qantas says:

      Qantas baggage handlers are already the highest paid in the aviation industry.

    • The righteous one says:

      07:02am | 02/11/11

      looks like this had nothing to do with pay rises except for Tony Abbot that is, serious questions are being asked about Abbott’s prior knowledge and how much in advance he knew and collusion between Joyce and Abbott on the lock out plan Questions he evaded or refused to answer in a press conference yesterday and also in the parliament.  he said he only found out shortly before 5 on saturday, but in the next breathe he said Qantas had been running around telling pollies of it’s plans weeks before So why did he start making different noises about the dispute on Friday,  why didnt he say something to warn the public? shows a lack of concern for others This is starting to smell so much like Reith and co would cook up.  Is this another Patrick Stevedoring?

    • marley says:

      06:05am | 02/11/11

      @Cate - I wouldn’t love to work for a company that was being forced to cut back on staff because its international operations
      were losing it hundreds of millions.  But I also wouldn’t like to work for a company that was broke.  Would you?  What choice do you think Qantas has to survive, long term, other than to move out of routes that are costing it a mozza?  And unfortunately but realistically, that means people are going to lose their jobs. 

      The issue of globalization has nothing to do with this.  Whether Qantas sets up an Asian hub or not, those routes and those jobs are going to go.

    • Cate says:

      10:30pm | 01/11/11

      Thank you Andrew.  This is not a union nor Government matter.  The Board incited employees into taking action.  Would you love to work for a company that threatened without warning that they were sacking 1000 employees.  Which employees are they referring to.  Not much incentive to work for a company with these disgraceful teasing bullying tactics.  Strikes are exactly what the board wanted and the stoppage of all aircraft was very well orchestrated.  Again read “The Men Who Killed Qantas”  I repeat this was not a militant Union action with no warrant.  It was incited by malicious bullying by the Qantas Board.  Such uncertainty cannot exist within such a huge company, especially when the public are in the workers hands for safety and reliability.  The Company attacked and the employees bit back.  Simple.  I’d like to see the board of Qantas in a full scale enquiry especially Geoff Dixon. Once again this is a ploy by the Board.  Planned for years and in no way involves lack of profit and sustainability.  AUstralian unite and stop this Globalisation disease this Country has caught.  Our natural resources are being stolen without a wimper so I’m glad Qantas is roaring.

    • Stiffy says:

      09:53pm | 01/11/11

      I see this article as the one which you, Penbo, made that step further to the left of politics.

    • Chris says:

      08:31pm | 01/11/11

      The most insightful and realistic article I’ve read on this matter so far. Well done.

    • thatmosis says:

      08:09pm | 01/11/11

      It really irks the Union lovers that Joyce had the audacity to call their bluff and show the government up for what it really is, a home for Union goons.
      Arbitration is the last thing the union wants as they will now be seen for what they truely are, greedy mindless churls who dont give a fig about anything except their hip pockets. If this works out for QANTAS then it will open the gates for other businesses to do the same and the Unionists will find that they are the ones on the bread line as more and more companies take action against the greed shown by most Unions. The sooner this happens the better.

    • Sick of the BS says:

      10:09pm | 01/11/11

      No what irks the “union lovers” is dickheads banging on about unions wanting to destroy the workplaces their members work at. Simply put if their members lose their jobs,they no longer need to be in a union,ergo no union fees need to be paid so no money for union officials! How is that beneficial to the unions? Jesus christ do you lot even listen to yourselves??

    • ProfGold says:

      07:42pm | 01/11/11

      Can’t wait to see all unions banned in Australia, says Mike.  Just run through the totalitarian countries that have banned unions, Mike. Which one would you like to live in Mike?

    • mike says:

      06:40pm | 01/11/11

      this isn’t about work going overseas - this is just a typical union slogan that comes out no matter who it is denying them above CPI pay rises.  the baggage handlers wanted less contractors - “because qantas were paying them less and they felt they would be replaced”.  Name another industry where you can pay a contractor less money than a staffer?  i can’t think of any.  what does that tell you?  you are onto a bloody good thing as a staffer.  they werent bringing in cheap overseas labour, or sending work overseas - they were employing other australians for less.  the real whinge here besides these union sheep not being able to milk the cow, was that more contractors = less union supporters.  the pack mentatiliy that blights australian business in every industry needs to be quashed and destroyed and people should be given what their worth on an individual basis.  is that union guy really part of the ALP?  wow.  labor is going to implode.  can’t wait to see all unions banned, its the only way Australia will move forward.

    • Jase says:

      06:03pm | 01/11/11

      Joyce and the board are achieving exactly the outcome they desire, that is to break Qantas up and to gift some of it to Jetstar, and sell the rest. The move made by the Qantas board to ground flights has been a text book move to destroy the brand to achieve the ultimate goal for breaking the business up.

      6 months from now, you will have an airline which will now be even more unprofitable because nobody will want to fly with them, Jetstar will be shown to be even more profitable as it will capitalise a large proportion of the lost business from QF. QF will go the way of the dinosaurs and J* will become the new “Spirit of Australia”. Watch this space.

      The tangible assets of Qantas, are all held in private companies which are a part of Qantas Group, its aircraft, its frequent flyer program, its property etc are all held privately and those private companies continue to hold what value they have regardless of the Qantas ltd. share price. The aim is to destroy the Qantas brand (Qantas ltd.) to bypass the Qantas sales act. Back in the Dixon days, the aim was to sell the entire airline, the sales act prohibited this, so the next best option is to break it up piece by piece!

    • Peter says:

      09:08am | 02/11/11

      Spot on Jase.  Please listen and learn, you foolish people, so blinded by your petty ideologies.

    • Cate says:

      08:02pm | 01/11/11

      Thank you Jase.  You are exactly correct.  This has nothing to do with Unions and Government.  It sounds like you have researched your stuff.  By the way have you read the book “The Men who killed Qantas” ?  People are ignoring the nose on their faces if they think this is a union ploy.  They are quite easily fooled.  I’d love to have them as a customer as I could pull the wool as much as I liked and they wouldn’t even know.  The fact is that I am far to honest to conduct myself in any business dealing I have in this most disgraceful and deceiptful manner.  This is Australia’s National Airline and should not be toyed with by The “So Called Board Of Qantas” because they couldn’t care one iota what happens just so long as they get their grubby slimy hands and push the will as they want it.  It was a good try, but it was scuttled. It is not Asian, Middle Eastern or any other nationality.  Geoff Dixon is still having his say don’t have any doubts about it. Very bad bullying Management methods showed their colours which have been covered up for years. It is now under scrutiny at a junior level and hopefully it will become of a more senior and authoratative scrutiny It is about time and Qantas Board Members Actions at this date should not be tolerated by any employee nor any member of the public..  As an aside.  Frequent flyer programmes are a pain in the A…e.  Any scheme like this is in line for dismantling.  Does anyone remember what happened to Golden Wing Members of Ansett?  Sorry there is nothing for free in this world and anyone who believes it is a fool.  You want the points you pay the price end of story.  Mainly companies bear the brunt of the extra costs becasue of their employees insistance to travel on airlines where they are able to then launder the money earnt and paid for by the company on personal purchases.  If that isn’t a Fringe Benefits Tax I don’t know what is.  The harmless lunch out with clients is nothing compared to this.  The company is virtually paying for their employees holidays and claiming a travel deduction against their company tax.  Funny isn’t it that these massive tax loopholes are missed.  If I was able to lie and cheat, I might enter politics, but I cannot tell a lie to save my life.  It is just not the way I was raised.
      Good Luck to the Qantas Employees.

    • ProfGold says:

      07:24pm | 01/11/11

      Makes sense to me Jase…The only possible explanation of what is otherwise a really dumb decision by Joycw. Good riddance!

    • ProfGold says:

      05:24pm | 01/11/11

      I have been a Qantas Frequent Flyer for as long as the scheme has been in operation.  As of the weekend when I was stranded without notice and expected to lump it,  I have resolved to cash in my points on whatever I can get for them - and have flown with Qantas for the last time.  Left-wing ideology is usually all talk and bluster with no harm done.  Right-wing ideology is all about shareholder greed, management connivance and bugg*r the general public.

    • CHuck says:

      04:41pm | 01/11/11

      Given his history at Ansett and now Qantas perhaps Alan may wish to change the logo to the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse.

    • Kurisu Sonsaku says:

      05:54pm | 01/11/11

      @Chuck - would you care to extrapolate on his history at Ansett (prior to its being sold by NZ Airlines) or are you just trolling in the sewer.

      Nope i changed my mind you are actually full of S&1t;

    • Fay says:

      04:08pm | 01/11/11

      Dare I say this, but Air New Zealand contemplated moving some of their functions off shore a few years ago, but ended up negotiating things with their unions including increased productivity and most of the functions stayed in New Zealand, so I do wonder why the unions are so hell bent on cutting their own throats here. I listened to interviews from both sides over the weekend, their are valid arguments from both sheldon and Joyce, but the bottomline here is this if a company wants to move things offshore and you dont negotiate, then you loose out completely, Militant action doesnt get you anywher as we have seen by Joyce’s lockout and ground of planes. the worst thing was that Julia Gillard could have and should have invertvened weeks ago as cries from tourism bosses and other companies about them loosing mone ystarted to surface. Wh yshe didnt in mot peoples minds is probably because Tony Sheldon will end up being the ALP President which means australia can look forwrd to more striked than we’ve see nin years. The other reason is that the Fair Work Australia Act was written by her and favours the unions not the employer. People are saying this wont happen elsewhere, but Joyce has set the precedent so if another big employer is having problems you’ll see this type of thing again, I’m tippign the mining companies the y too are having union problems negotiating contracts right now.

    • Cate says:

      11:14am | 02/11/11

      Thanks Al.  I do understand the difference between negotiation and arbitration. Perhaps I worded my comment in a confusing manner.  Qantas do not want to participate in either.  If it gets to arbitration, Qantas will not abide by anything unless it is all the Boards way.
      “The parties are ideologically opposed – and Qantas management dislikes the concept of either organised labour or government interfering in how it chooses to run its business.” ie they’ll carry on regardless unless the fight continues.  The Government of the day must in the interest take back control of our National carrier.

    • Al says:

      07:19am | 02/11/11

      Cate:
      You seem to be confusing negotiation and arbitration.
      Negotiation is between two (or more) parties comming to an agreement on the outcome.
      Arbitration is a third party who is not directly involved making a binding decision as to what will happen.
      As an example, you can negotiate a termination package above the minimum required by law.
      If taken to arbitration they would simply enforce what you are entitled to under the law, nothing more.

      Another example would be having someone pay for damages to your property that they caused by negotiation.
      Or an outcome/compensation as arbitrated by the courts.

    • Cate says:

      10:43pm | 01/11/11

      Unfortunately the Qantas Board weren’t willing to negotiate.  They were unbending in every way and had no intention of Arbitrating.  You do not incite your workforce with such negative remarks ie 1000 employees will be sacked.  So stupid.  I Agree NZ is bounds ahead of Australia in many ways.

    • Ben says:

      04:01pm | 01/11/11

      Why is News.com.au always promoting the selfish intrests of big business rather then the people?
      The unions didn’t want all our work going over seas which is what mr joyce wants to do! last years profits (double the prevouse year) are obviously not enough, we must sack our Aussie workers so the super rich can make more money of their multi million dollare share portfolios.

      This is also very bad for Australia, but i guess Joyce and his Cronnies personal gain is much more important to the public yeah?

    • pointed says:

      06:21pm | 01/11/11

      because Ben, it is generally the selfish interests of big business that give the rest of us our jobs.  Imagine if business didn’t look out for their interests.  Imagine if they decided they would let Unions dictate to them combined with the general public who seem at this point in time to covet their success.  I would imagine we would end up losing a lot more businesses here in Australia.

    • Cate says:

      03:58pm | 01/11/11

      The Qantas Board have been setting up the demise and sell off of Qantas for years. Mr Penberthy, I suggest you read up on the history.
      This is not about the Unions or the Government.  It is about the Qantas board and they way they have been skimming Qantas Brand products for years.  Go back at least 20 and you may find a few clues.
      This has nothing to do with Australians being misty eyed.  I feel people who don’t know the full story should do a little research.  The Bastardry and devilment of the Qantas board and management has been on for years.  It is no co-incidence this has happened.  It brought to a head the want for the Board to offshore Qantas and is being used as another excuse.  I dont know how James Strong and particularly Geoff Dixon and now Joyce can lye straight in bed at night.  They do though because they couldn’t care less.  Qantas has made huge profits, and that isn’t because of the higher airfares.  It is just not realised as Qantas takes all the expenditure of Jetstar and the Qantas route to NZ (which is owned by New Zealand).  Jetstar and Qantas to NZ rake in all the profits and have no expenditure.  Qantas is the sugar daddy and is fast losing money to what is portrayed as a profitable airline ie. Jetstar.  Blind Freddy could work this out.  Everyone just start getting your facts straight.
      I’d like to see the board members of Qantas past and present in court along with their financial advisors. Legalised fraudulent activitiy might spring to mind.

    • Mark says:

      03:45pm | 01/11/11

      Alan Joyce was not a senior executive at Aer Lingus.

    • seduxen says:

      03:31pm | 01/11/11

      Don’t forget, there is historical evidence if there is a socialist system is in power - as claimed by some - only it’s opposing version can be an alternative: fascism. The same totalitarian system under different colors. We would need to get back to capitalism: when you invent, invest and you harvest the return. If you made mistakes, you’ll lose. Is this that we have today? Or are we investing publicly and profiting publicly? Is this the system that we supposedly have for the greater good of the Public? I don’t think so. This system would be socialistic. But, instead our MULTINATIONAL BANKS investing in speculative bonds, and they lose and WE HAVE TO BAIL THEM OUT, the Public but when they getting better and starting to post trillions in profit they not only not returning it into the Public purse, but they withdrawing funds, money supply. Our supposedly elected political office holders following the orders of the international money powers, and foreign political agendas, instead of job creation, monetary protection to the home owners and the safe keeping of our own economy. We are not better by a thickness of a hair than any of the other countries. Because we still have other means such as our resources, that covers up our colony status as a “boom”. But in reality, our resources sold below value, creating no further employment and public wealth - and don’t forget! these resources are owned as publicly just like rail, ports and rivers!
      Joyce is gave/giving away good Australian jobs those made Qantas safe, secure and reputable. He also claims, Qantas is a “national carrier”. Oh yeah? So what makes a national carrier national? Qantas is as much “national” as Commonwealth Bank or NAB… Total and utter rubbish. These economic hitmans are sent here to push our labor cost into the average Asian labor cost level: they have 1 cup of rice a day, he is generous: he would give 2 cups for us. While he keeping his generous millionaire salaries and bonuses. His not only hypocritical, but immoral and indecent. He runs Qantas into the ground, strips from it’s (our! assets and selling to the still standing international giants. Don’t forget, he will do that he paid for. His multinational - might be even competing airlines - shareholders overriding the little participating shareholders. If Qantas is Australian carrier, then it should have governmental protection as a strategic asset. Same as our railways, ports, telecommunications. We could not and will not be able to afford losing everything public property. No, private enterprise do not work it effectively. They strip it to the bare bone and either selling it or when it loaded with debt they make the taxpayer to buy it back. Look Qantas: this will happen with the work of Joyce and his kinfolks…

    • BelleT says:

      03:29pm | 01/11/11

      WOW, this is such a blatantly pro-corporate News Ltd. article. Does Rupert Murdoch generate salaries based on how sycophantically pro business its writers are?

      What about the working class Australian who just wants assurances from Alan Joyce their jobs are not going to be moved overseas? But I guess, your belief is “that’s just one of the unfortunate realities of privatized industry.”

      Well, NEWS FLASH, one of the other realities is that in Australia, we actually provide working Australians with the infrastructure to voice their disputes. Its enough of management taking advantage of the working class, even if they aren’t on Murdoch’s payroll, unlike you, David Penberthy

    • EdHall says:

      03:25pm | 01/11/11

      Nice article. The only thing I would add is that it is the unions that all too often unleash the dogs not only on companies trying to survive but on their members as well, many of whom have firstly been forced to join against their will and secondly have no interest in these grandiose bully tactics and would rather simply go to work every day.
      Well done Alan, you’ve got the stuff. YOU I would like to work for.

    • Cate says:

      04:32pm | 01/11/11

      You can have his job Ed.  If you are able to lie and use cloaks and mirrors effectively, than go for it.  In this one instance the Board are the bullies.  I am not a unionist, nor am I against private enterprise.  I am all for it.  What I don’t like is board members acting innocent when they are fully to blame.  Inciteful comments, threats of job losses and so forth is the bully way.  Working in private enterprise is also very hard when you go to work each day with the threat of losing your employment if you don’t work extra hours for nothing.  Taking lunch away from your desk is frowned upon and if you don’t arrive early at work there is the predictable supercilious look at the watch. If you go to the toilet you have to have permission.  When you are a hard and loyal worker and are ill, you drag yourself out of your sickbed as even though you are loyal you are not believed.  It is disgraceful.  This is where a joining together of people who don’t deserve this type of pressure and treatment should get together and say enough is enough.  Militant Unions can cause havoc.  In this instance I am on the workers side.  For better or worse Qantas must remain in Australia and the Government must buy it back.  Where board members and shareholders are involved there is havoc.  It is an, and has always been a loyal and essential service for Australia.  Virgin are doing well also.  There is room for both.  Airlines need to get back to basics and follow the Internationa Air Transport Association (IATA) and Australian Tourism needs to respect AFTA again.  The Australian Federation of Travel Agents.  Rules need to once again be simplified.  Ticketing deadlines have become outreageous, and why? Because there is no watchdog or monitoring system in place.  America’s way is not the Australian way. Cheers and lets hope more of Australia isn’t sold offshore. Agents are supposed to be the Airlines & Hotels clients.  What happened that the Airlines hold Travel Agents to ransom.  When they are hurting they crawl to you on bended knees.  Think about it.

    • BelleT says:

      03:19pm | 01/11/11

      @old fart

      What the hell do the three diggers dying in Afghanistan have to do with Alan Joyce’s lack of respect for working class QANTAS employees?

    • PaxUs says:

      03:11pm | 01/11/11

      A balanced account, excluding the fictitious amount of tax that Mr. Joyce supposedly pays.  I’d say it would be a vastly decreased amount than that indicated.  In any case, I’m sure his uber generous pay rise will more than cover it.  The republican spirit is alive and well.

    • Kurisu Sonsaku says:

      05:58pm | 01/11/11

      “excluding the fictitious amount of tax that Mr. Joyce supposedly pays”

      Unless you’re his tax accountant or have intimate knowledge of his package i would say you are blowing smoke out of your a#3e and are engaging in base speculation and unmedicated delusion.

    • Chris says:

      02:10pm | 01/11/11

      I dont think you are right that this is being perceived as an attack on the travelling public. THe old cynical union tactics of stoppages at Christmas and Easter were, for sure, and so was the Hawke smashing of the tourist industry along with the pilots union. 

      This time however, even though we have international guests arrive last night who were trapped in transit,  the attitude is one of curiosity about what is really going on.  We are no longer limtied to Labor apologists’ media reports so we might fin out too!

    • Gidgee says:

      01:59pm | 01/11/11

      We of the western world are born, live and die in a capitalistic world tinged with a touch of socialism.
      QANTAS is a capitalistic organisation, privately owned and, as such, should not be dictated to by any government including our federal one.
      The Unionists have been gulled into thinking that QANTAS is still an instrument owned by government and have acted as if they are working for the state-run railways, for instance.
      Mr Sheldon has too much to say: he would have been wiser to keep his utterances, often laden with boyish bile to himself and simply said that his members (of his union) were frightened of losing their jobs - that would have won everyone.
      Right now in time the EU states are busily begging communist China to bail their pitiful financial situation out - begging a communist state for God’s sake!
      The US is broke to the wide and while all this fiscal jockeying is going on in the international scene these well paid men and women who work for QANTAS think it’s timely to seriously rock the boat when the other airlines which lob into Australia from Asian and Arab lands can do the same individual service to customers at a third less than QANTAS.
      Capitalism has to win this one before QANTAS is sent down the gurgler by other capitalistic air transport organisations.
      Accordingly, Joyce’s action, though radical, was warranted.

    • Max, of Rocky says:

      03:19pm | 01/11/11

      Yep,
      they do not understand that the more they disrupt the business the more damage and less profits are made to pay for their demands and damage.

      They are only making things worse.  They are fortunate that jobs have not already have been erased.

      I bet plans are already on the boardroom table to “downsize” and diversify sections of the business in Australia.

      No company can afford to lose $200 million a year from one of it’s divisions and turn a blind eye.

      They have to return it to profit or kill it off.

    • SP says:

      01:46pm | 01/11/11

      Alan Joyce is paid to run and make money for the company, failure to do that would be negligent. He has the duty to restructure the company as the board see’s fit to ensure that the company and profits are maintained. Tony Sheldon wouldn’t have run a chook raffle let alone a national company, he has zero understanding of running any business and shouldn’t be able to pretend that he knows better. Let the unions and the workers buy the international arm of Qantas and turn a profit on his conditions, jobs for life, 150k minimum for all workers, see how long lasts.  Get the unions out of Australian Business, they have had there time.

    • Bort says:

      01:33pm | 01/11/11

      good article! i was starting to worry that news.com.au was trying to think that the unions had news.com.au in their pockets.

    • Dodge says:

      01:49pm | 01/11/11

      Yeah, who can understand anybody backing the common worker over a million dollar ceo?That sounds almost Australian, and we just can’t have that.

      I really hope all these Corporate sycophants posting their vitriol are actual millionaires or business people. Lots of this nonsense sounds like Suburban bogans (to borrow a punch term) attempting to live vicariously through the relatively successful…

      Hint: You aren’t going to make it that far.

    • George says:

      01:32pm | 01/11/11

      Those were not tactical errors, they were tactically brilliant.

      On the first point, he could not have given notice or he’d face threats and allow the govt more time to prepare options not in line with how he wanted them to act.

      His pay increase was also well timed and intelligent, obviously. Given what he knew he’d have to go through etc to win. Plus the increase is linked to performance, which you did not mentioned. 

      In regards to the third error it would suggest serious premeditation had he spend a dime on PR before hand or went to the media during negotiations, either of those decisions would likely work against him in the FW outcome and in the media once people catch up,which they always do.

      Your pretty much wrong on all counts and i suggest you research tactics and strategy more thoughtfully before writing about them in the future.

      Otherwise good article.

    • Rob says:

      01:24pm | 01/11/11

      The issues are neither Joyce’s salary OR union “thuggery”, but who is responsible for employee relations at Qantas.  Surely this is Qantas management, or does Qantas abdicate this to Fair work Australia or the Government?  If they can’t manage their own workforce and explain their actions to them, how can they expect to explain it to the rest of us, who don’t understand the business?

    • Marq says:

      01:13pm | 01/11/11

      Most are right. Its not about his salary, rather the timing of his self imposed salary increase, that is. Its a bit like if Germany had thrown parties for winning the 2nd World War before it had ended.

    • Pete says:

      01:05pm | 01/11/11

      A company that has over $20b in assets on the balance sheet, and revenues in excess of $14b… and we complain that we pay a CEO tens of millions who is responsible for all that?  If I could afford someone of that ilk to run my financial and business affairs of that magnitude, I would in a heartbeat.  Those that complain about obscene salaries should ask themselves if they had $20b riding on 14b in revenue, would you pay a baggage handler to run the company? No? Who then? How much would you pay, and what sort of person would you get for say even half that?  Joyce proved himself in previous jobs - and he’s taking a hard line here because he, and unanimously the board, believe it’s in the company’s interest.  The company’s interest is ultimately the interest of all it’s employees on the whole.

    • Col Sanders says:

      02:01pm | 01/11/11

      OK so Joyce is a hero and deserves every penny he gets and the advantage to the company of moving to Asia where they are only having to pay someone $200 a month instead of double that a week, I get. That Joyce will probably make more a week than the entirety of his Asian workforce in a year , I get. But what I do not get is, With everything outsourced what’s in it for Australia?  ..Qantas will be just another cheap fare Asian Carrier competing with other carriers to see who is cheaper.

    • Bryan says:

      12:51pm | 01/11/11

      You would have to pay me a lot more than 5 million dollars a year to have to put up with the pressure that Joyce has to put up with on a day to day basis.

      Having most of the senoir heavyweights in the most powerful Unions in Australia jabbing (and threatening you) on an ongoing basis would suck the life out of most people within a day never mind years! And then to add fuel to the fire you get most of the Ministers in the Australian Federal Government also attacking you… gimme a break.

      Yeah! The UK Union model worked wonders for them - didn’t it?

    • grumpy smurf says:

      12:45pm | 01/11/11

      Everyones seems to have forgotten that when Qantas was sold it became a sort of oxymoron: a company that by definition of being floated was meant to be for profit while at the same time guaranteeing continuity/availability of service to loss making destinations and guaranteeing local employment on outrageous hourly rates. Whist enough time has passed for a relatively new CEO to ignore “The Qantas Act”, his bold (and commercially sound) strategy flies in the face of what the government legislated when it sold Qantas. Duh! We are such a bunch of naive, infantile idiots in this country. We let all our national assets be sold off to finance tax cuts (read votes) and commonwealth government pensions, then we are shocked and surprised when electricity prices go through the roof, we spend $100 a week on road tolls and public transport capacity is less in relative terms than it was in the 1920s. Wake up people, we are to blame.

    • Brian says:

      07:35pm | 01/11/11

      A good point Kika. Even more amusing is that all of the major mechanical faults have been on aircraft which were still serviced in Australia… well, with the exception of the A380 engine one, which had been serviced in Germany (where all A380’s were at that point) and which was a manufacturing rather than maintenance problem.

    • Kika says:

      12:58pm | 01/11/11

      Precisely. Not to mention that we don’t fly with them either.  We’re concerned about planes falling from the sky because they are serviced in Singapore, yet turn around and jump on a Singapore Airlines flight.

    • steve says:

      12:41pm | 01/11/11

      Government should buy back QANTAS, just like they have the Telstra network ( through the NGN).

      What a terrifying mind picture it makes. Julia and Wayne at the helm of a A380; controling what goes across the nation’s communications cables; directing the Defence Forces on who to exterminate in the name of humanaity and ‘the right thing to do; whilst they are also in command of the unions and the dollars from our tax receipts that fund our health system and national infrastructure.

      When do we get to send in the fisrt eleven?

    • Kika says:

      01:01pm | 01/11/11

      Dramatic much?

    • Blake says:

      12:36pm | 01/11/11

      Good idea, lets ship out more jobs over to Asia - at least the overseas shareholders will get rich! 

      In 10 years, this country will have nothing.  Everyone will live in a mine.

      Can’t wait, I have my BE(Elec) in hand and ready, you can drive the truck David.

    • Aussie Born and Bred says:

      12:18pm | 01/11/11

      While much has been made of AJ’s 71% payrise, NOTHING has been said of the fact that he came into the position on a salary $309k LESS than his predecessor and that his package dropped by a further 20% last year!

      Let’s see a union member take cuts like that and not go running to their trough-dwelling uinion rep.

    • I'm Aussie too! says:

      04:26pm | 01/11/11

      A twenty percent cut on 3 million dollars means he’s still getting $2.4 million (Pretty good take home pay even after tax). A person on $60,000 taking a twenty percent cut = $48,000 (BEFORE tax). For Families that cut could be the difference between being able to afford health insurance, being able to buy a car that doesn’t keep breaking down or being able to save for a home deposit, let alone something fun such as having a holiday.

      I agree that CEOs face pressures that other employees may not, but serioulsy, don’t expect me to feel sorry for someone who could buy a new 3 bedroom home every year on the money he makes AFTER a paycut.

    • Ozzie Bourne and Bread says:

      03:46pm | 01/11/11

      I think the point is that such cuts to a regular earner’s income would devastate their REAL standard of living to the point of not being able to survive. The starting point for Mr Joyce prior to those cuts wouldn’t affect his ability to survive, merely how much how actually receives in his pocket.

    • Joel B1 says:

      12:01pm | 01/11/11

      Gillard is the quintessential “hands-off” PM.

      Mainly because she has absolutely no skill. And lies.

    • Chris L says:

      04:14pm | 01/11/11

      If Gillard had been hands on you would be criticising her for that. Interfering uninvited into the workings of an independant company would surely be blasphemy to a right winger.

      Gillard lies as much as every other politician. If you’re referring to the carbon price, she announced that before the election. Not her fault if you weren’t paying attention.

    • ShiftyDeals says:

      11:37am | 01/11/11

      I sense there is a much darker and murkier basis hiding in the background that has contributed to this entire folly.  It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that some of the major shareholders, yes that means you Mr Dixon, would prefer to break up Qantas and profit enormously from the resulting sale of it’s constituent parts.

      That being said, the fact that Mr Joyce accepted a 70% pay rise during such a significant issue, not to mention in light of the fact he wanted to sack 1000 workers, leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.  He has mismanaged this affair from the start.  And yes, the PM needs to take responsibility here because she has failed in every respect.

      As for where we go from here, only time will tell.  My company is already looking at switching carriers because this is yet another nail in Qantas’s coffin and our 1800 staff deserve to be treated better.

    • Jase says:

      03:39am | 02/11/11

      Actually KS, I am the Managing Director of a smaller aviation company here in Australia. Sorry to burst your bubble but we survive in one of the most volatile and ruthless industries by innovating and being the absolute best we can be. There are companies that we compete with who rely on government contracts that are virtually handouts, and they fail to gain market share because they have become complacent.

      Qantas could compete strongly, as Air NZ does, simply through innovation. If you believe the hype that EK or Singapore Airlines have cheap labor costs, think again, they have been employing our best pilots, engineers and flight attendants for years, on expat terms with housing etc.

      My suggestion is to go do some research, you clearly have no Idea…

    • Kurisu Sonsaku says:

      06:16pm | 01/11/11

      So @ Jase, given your substantial history as a CEO what would you have done?, by my interpretation you would have rolled over to the unions like a dog on heat.

      Basically you and SD are conspiracy theorists having a belt over your own percieved paranioa, grow up.

    • Jase says:

      05:47pm | 01/11/11

      You are spot on the money ShiftyDeals, that is exactly what is happening. No CEO would ever make the decision to cease operations with the brand damage that would be associated with it, unless a deal behind closed doors would see that somewhat crazy move seem very very clever.

    • Tanya says:

      11:37am | 01/11/11

      In simple terms, Joyce claims Qantas is experiencing difficulties remaining competitive in the market place (despite making a profit last financial year) therefore a reduction in overheads is a requirement.  If you’re managing a household budget and the need arises to tighten up, you don’t skint on safety by getting a backyard mechanic to service your car nor do you increase your own play money just because you’re the head of the household. 

      It is an impenetrable argument that Alan Joyce is continuing to line his own pocket whilst risking the quality of maintenance and service, denying pay increases to various teams of workers and removing their job security.

      It’s feudalism.

    • Kika says:

      01:03pm | 01/11/11

      I agree Marley.  I love how we are quick to freak out if the planes are serviced in Singapore or Malaysia like they are being serviced in Mogadishu or something.  Also Singapore and Malaysia Airlines treat you like a human, where if you dare ask a Qantas air hostie for help they act like you are interrupting their precious chat time.

    • Mayday says:

      12:51pm | 01/11/11

      Tanya when did Profit become such a dirty word and I am sure LOSS is the four letter word we should worry about.

      Loss of profit = Loss of business = Loss of jobs!

    • marley says:

      11:51am | 01/11/11

      @Tanya - if your household budget is too tight, you’ve got a couple of choices - cut expenditure (ie close down international routes that are costing you money) and/or increase income (set up another airline in a region where you can make a profit). Joyce is proposing both. And it is perfectly possible to get competent maintenance in Asia - Singapore and Cathay both have excellent safety records.

    • Aussie Wazza says:

      11:30am | 01/11/11

      “Unions are finished!”
      Yes they’ve done their bit and got for the workers the fine conditions our grandfathers only dreamed about and through workers joining together our fathers finally achieved.

      Now todays workers, never having had to struggle have forgotten the pain our fathers suffered to get todays conditions and so take them for granted.

      They swallow the blurb about ‘evil’ unions pushed by the media which is owned by the rich whose fathers our fathers had to fight tooth and nail.

      Better to knock the unions. Lucky me, the kind goverment banned compulsary unionism so now I can save the membership fee.

      But now, over the past few years, slowly, slowly bit by bit the great conditions are being eroded. Australians jobs are disappearing overseas. Jobs disappear and soon unemployment will expedentially grow.

      No chairman will talk reason with Billy Blogs; why should he? Billy can’t do anything alone; just one man, and if he doesn’t like it; piss off; there are many more out there to fill Billys spot.

      Remember the old saying ‘UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL.’

    • Mayday says:

      12:48pm | 01/11/11

      Ridiculous Union demands have pushed business offshore in order to reduce labour costs and compete in Asia with much lower rates of pay so yes we can thank the Unions for that.

      Low skilled workers need to smell the roses and retrain to keep ahead because eventually our Asian neighbours will do that type of work for us.

      Just wondering how many Union officials have mortgaged their house and put in 80 hours a week to keep the business going in the early days in order to produce more and employ more workers…...NIL!!

      Banning compulsory unionism was a very good thing.
      Perhaps if the ALP follow through with ALP membership and allow future politicians from the left not to have to join a union first…..this will improve democracy and possibly the quality of candidates no end.

      Viva freedom of choice, and I’m glad there are people like Alan Joyce.

    • Mark says:

      11:23am | 01/11/11

      Penbo, I think you have missed the whole strategy here. Comments around Joyce’s salary is just noise coming from the occupy crowd.

      The timing of this was perfect. He received positive support from shareholders at the AGM after the unions said they would have the support of the shareholders. Qantas then thought the unions would back off without shareholder support but they ramped up their rhetoric threatening to “slow bake” the airline. The decision to ground the airline was a smart one. Firstly the unions were clearly caught well off guard. Being a weekend the impact on the vital business market was minimal. Gillard was in Perth with 17 other world leaders wanting to get home and this embarrassed her greatly. There was a virtual deadline of the Melbourne cup to get people moving. Doing why they did when they did ensured either government intervention or a favourable ruling from FWA.

      Mission accomplished.

    • Michael says:

      08:24am | 02/11/11

      Exactly, and doesn’t that just burn the unions arses and their shitty Government too.

      It must seem so frightening to the numpties in the unions that even with an ALP Government and three unions united, a single man in charge of a company has more power to effect change than the lot of them.

    • Peter Fox says:

      11:14am | 01/11/11

      Does Chris (11.48) Mean puppet master?we already have had a dud in Rudd.

    • Shama says:

      11:06am | 01/11/11

      Apparently Australians are the wealthiest in terms of median wealth. The US median wealth is pretty poor in comparison.  At least part of this is due to the unions? 

      The lets get it done cheaply elsewhere and CEOs are entitled to obscene salaries mantra is going to fail societies sooner or later.

    • St. Michael says:

      01:10pm | 01/11/11

      You are only looking at one side of the equation.  Whether that’s a rhetorical device by you or just ignorance I don’t know.

      “The US median wealth is pretty poor in comparison.”
      That depends on what their cost of living is.  If you earn $500 a week but your bread only costs you 50 cents a loaf you are doing better than the guy earning $1,000 a week who has to pay $4.00 for the same loaf.

      “The lets get it done cheaply elsewhere and CEOs are entitled to obscene salaries mantra is going to fail societies sooner or later.”

      “Obscene” salaries is a relative term.  One of the fundamentals of the union movement is that everyone gets paid the same wage.  Joyce’s salary on joining QANTAS was a pay cut for him, and well under the mean for executives.  There is also the question of relative responsibility: Joyce isn’t responsible for one widget.  He’s responsible for the entire factory if he stuffs up.  On the other hand, there is the argument that the reason the boss has an astronomically high salary is rational economics: it’s not there to reward him, it’s there to motivate everyone a level or two below his pay grade.  And then there’s shareholder concerns, where, just like voting interests, the atomisation of ownership causes people to be rationally indifferent to outcomes - see Tim Herford’s “The Logic of Life” on this one.

      But as for “get it done cheaply elsewhere” ... again, that ignores economic relativity, if I can put it that way.  Getting paid $20 a day looks like a crap wage to an Australian.  But to someone in Bali it’s a bloody fortune because everyone else gets something like 20 cents per day.  And this economic relativism is exactly why Australians adore Bali: because they can live like kings there on this same principle.  Invariably, where a big multinational goes into a poor company and makes stuff there, it usually is paying well and truly above the median wage *there*—which is right and just.  Paying an Australian wage there would harm their economy due to inflation.

    • Ddoge says:

      11:00am | 01/11/11

      It’s clear unions aren’t needed anymore. Humanity has obviously learnt it’s lesson and now, unionization simply impedes business. The stark contrast in salary increasing at prodigious rates for the wealthist is simply the market in action.

      I mean, who wants sick leave, recreation leave, 8 hour working day (which started in Australia), carer’s leave, paternity leave, OH&S regulations, workplace safety, anti-discrimination laws…. OR Anything like that ‘crap’.

      Business people OBVIOUSLY have the rights of workers deep at heart, this has been a mainstay since LONG before the industrial revolution, right? No businessman would push his workforce for increased profit at lower costs… That sort of thing never occurs, nuh-uh.

    • Ben C says:

      02:40pm | 01/11/11

      @ Ddoge (your own spelling)

      I hope you’re only referring to big business.

    • Ricky says:

      10:54am | 01/11/11

      Money > Life. I have always thought this because money without-a-doubt fuels everything in our life. That is why I believe money has a greater existence than life itself because it is so sought after from the entire world.

      People who believe that money can’t bring happiness are naive and in denial because if you haven’t guessed by now - money is happiness.

    • chris says:

      10:50am | 01/11/11

      vote Joyce in for pm

    • chris says:

      10:48am | 01/11/11

      vote Joyce in for pm

    • JulesG says:

      10:48am | 01/11/11

      Alan Joyce’s actions are calculated and clear. He doesn’t give a toss for Australians and has no perception of the social responsibility he has to this country and its people. The social responsibility that a national icon such as Qantas demands cannot be divorced from hard nosed business decisions as Joyce seeks to do.

      What is the Australian work force to do? Stand idly by as their jobs are sent off shore and safety, security and maintenance are compromised at the alter of business rationalisation. They have no option but to stay and fight.

      Alan Joyce’s intransigence and contempt for his workers and the flying public is nothing short of a pornographic obscenity!

      Penbo - you’re right, it’‘s not just about salary (although a 71% pay rise does not sit well in this industrial dispute). It’s about decency and a willingness to acknowledge that Qantas is not just any company to be run purely as management see fit. Something that is totally lost on Alan Joyce.

    • Freeman says:

      08:45pm | 01/11/11

      Jules, perhaps you miss the point of the article. What shareholders choose to pay Alan Joyce is their own business and if he can make the airline competitive again he’ll be worth every cent.

      ” The pilots have gone on record as saying they don’t want a pay rise “
      Liar, they are pushing for pay rises that would = up to $40,000 for some pilots.

      And just how can baggage handlers have their jobs sent overseas? it’s job best performed at the terminal I would have thought? If I were in their position I would be thankful I could earn upwards of $80k for a job a trained monkey could do.

      Oh, And I think Joyce has done Qantas customers and shareholders a massive favor by bringing and end to months of rolling strikes.

    • JulesG says:

      07:49pm | 01/11/11

      @ Freeman. You mean like 71%? The pilots have gone on record as saying they don’t want a pay rise - they want safety and proper maintenance. The baggage handlers wanted around $1 dollar an hour and some job security and their jobs not shipped overseas for 3rd world wages.

      Do you think that it’s OK for Joyce to behave as he has without any warning - I don’t think so.

      Are you just a union basher or are you just against someone getting the best for their family and ensuring their own safety and security? What would you do if you were in their position?

    • Freeman says:

      01:38pm | 01/11/11

      Well Jules, if the union is so concerned about keeping jobs in house perhaps they shouldn’t be pushing for un deserved pay rises that would make the difference between australian and foreign labour costs so stark.

    • poa says:

      10:45am | 01/11/11

      Unions are finished in Australia. Which is why it is so amazing that they are running the country through their poitical wing the ALP.
      Outside the Public SErvice, how what % of the workforce is unionised?...and what % of those actually want to be?
      The whole Craig Thomson bit has exposed what unions are about.
      Aussies have taken notice..even if teh Gillard government has put a D-Notice on the subject to protect itself from criticism.
      Aussies have seen the ineffectiveness of both Gillard and the ALP’s Industrial Relation Laws in regard Qantas. She had the law but chose not to act until forced by Qantas. Its called looking after the ALP’s mates.
      As both a BHP shareholder, a Telstra shareholder a Qantas shareholder and a Nth Cattle Co shareholder (its our super) its obvious that the ALP has declared a Class War on business.
      Maybe they think the feral green Occupy people will vote for them in a wave of revolutionary fervour…free Che T-shirts to everyone!
      Joyce acted brilliantly..leaving Gillard and Co floundering among the spin merchants…Australia has just stopped listening..
      These liars have form!

    • Steve says:

      06:23pm | 01/11/11

      You are a Qantas share holder! My god you admit to that!! Talk about fools and his money. Hope you aren’t planning to retire on that, or maybe you have bought the Sydney harbour Bridge.

      I laugh in the face of people who boast about having bought shares in an airline.

    • poa says:

      10:45am | 01/11/11

      Unions are finished in Australia. Which is why it is so amazing that they are running the country through their poitical wing the ALP.
      Outside the Public SErvice, how what % of the workforce is unionised?...and what % of those actually want to be?
      The whole Craig Thomson bit has exposed what unions are about.
      Aussies have taken notice..even if teh Gillard government has put a D-Notice on the subject to protect itself from criticism.
      Aussies have seen the ineffectiveness of both Gillard and the ALP’s Industrial Relation Laws in regard Qantas. She had the law but chose not to act until forced by Qantas. Its called looking after the ALP’s mates.
      As both a BHP shareholder, a Telstra shareholder a Qantas shareholder and a Nth Cattle Co shareholder (its our super) its obvious that the ALP has declared a Class War on business.
      Maybe they think the feral green Occupy people will vote for them in a wave of revolutionary fervour…free Che T-shirts to everyone!
      Joyce acted brilliantly..leaving Gillard and Co floundering among the spin merchants…Australia has just stopped listening..
      These liars have form!

    • Al says:

      11:36am | 01/11/11

      Markus:
      And one of the BIG reasons that the public service has high union membership is this:
      The government removed public servants from being covered under compensation laws for incidents that occured traveling too/from work, during breaks from work (such as meal breaks etc).
      The union then took out insurance to cover their members for accidents occuring in these periods and as such had a huge increase in membership. The cost of union fees is less than the cost of income protection insurance and is also tax deductable.

    • Markus says:

      10:59am | 01/11/11

      The overall average is about 19% of workers being union members, but that is taking into account the 40% of public servants who are in unions. For the private sector it is down at about 14%, but may have gone even lower than that in recent times.

    • pete says:

      10:41am | 01/11/11

      i’m never flying qantas again… until they have a big seat sale to get me crawling back.

      fair dinkum, the way some people howl about service you’d think they were middle ages’ noblemen. airlines are transport for all us upright bovines, apparently you’re meant to have your bum wiped by naked supermodels clutching pure silk. never understood that, i was just happy to land in one piece.

    • Govt@FauxCitizen says:

      10:39am | 01/11/11

      Everyone else running a business has the option of taking the manufacturing and processing base to a low cost country in order to remain compettitive and little incentive to keep their operations onshore and less disincentive to import low quality low priced product unfairly competing with high quality high priced localy produced.
      Textiles, metals, food, services, labour, telecommunications are all but a few of the industries and jobs that have vanished forever, due to the weak governance in this country and shallow levels of patriotism, from all sides, politicians,business,consumers and unions.
      As we slowly price ourselves out of a job and send them overseas, QANTAS is joining the great exodus.
      Yes Penbo I’ts all about the money and greed !!!!!

    • St. Michael says:

      02:30pm | 01/11/11

      “Money and greed absolutely . Shanghai, China’s financial center and most populous city, raised its minimum MONTHLY wage by 14 percent to 1,280 yuan (US$195) in April 2011. How can any industry here compete with such cheap labour. Then you have the Union Bashers who expect Australian workers to somehow match these wages while they(themselves) are exempt, but always the first in line with their hand out if they can get something a bit cheaper from a slave labour country.”

      (1) The ‘slave labour’ wages paid by large companies to Third World nations are usually well above the median wage paid by the local employers.  Thus that ‘slave labour’ is actually highly paid in relative terms.

      (2) The point isn’t to compete directly.  Qantas on its domestic routes would’ve kept on paying and employing Australians because it can compete there.  It can’t compete the same way on the international circuit because our wages are—when you compare most other countries—some of the highest in the world.  Your choices are either have the government own Qantas again (Christ no), allow Qantas to compete by moving many of its costs offshore, or take Qantas off the international circuit.

    • milo of Brizvegas says:

      11:37am | 01/11/11

      Money and greed absolutely . Shanghai, China’s financial center and most populous city, raised its minimum MONTHLY wage by 14 percent to 1,280 yuan (US$195) in April 2011. How can any industry here compete with such cheap labour. Then you have the Union Bashers who expect Australian workers to somehow match these wages while they(themselves) are exempt, but always the first in line with their hand out if they can get something a bit cheaper from a slave labour country.

    • Loxy says:

      10:34am | 01/11/11

      Great article Penbo! Only thing I would add is that although mistakes have been made on both sides (much more from the unions in my opinion) none of this would have happened at all if we had a decent Federal Act that governed industrial relations. The Fair Work Australia Act is a joke and puts far too much power into the hands of bullying unions. Its predecessor put far too much power into the hands of employers. Both governments are useless in getting this area right.

    • Peter Fox says:

      10:29am | 01/11/11

      It has nothing to do with Alan Joyce’s wages it is all to do with Alan Joyce the man the staff at Qantas totally dislike him and that is putting it lightly,the boards at Virgin and Cathay Pacific must celebrate each and every day that Joyce continues as ceo of Qantas .

    • daza says:

      10:22am | 01/11/11

      x worker at qantas,the unions are only trying to get job security for its workers,why shouldnt they get a 3p rise over three years,qantas tell a lot of lies,air fares go up because of fuel, but what they dont tell the public is that they buy fuel 5 years in advance and they get it cheaper,plus they are taking parts off other aircraft to keep another in the air,qantas dont give a dam about there staff,and they for get baggage handlers work there buts off in those lockers lifting tons every day,on there hands and knees,these guys deserve every cent they earn,so dont believe every thing that comes out of joyces mouth,he will be the end of qantas and virgin will take over.

    • milo of Brizvegas says:

      10:21am | 01/11/11

      Those highly paid Union baggage handlers on $18 an hour have forced QANTAS into Asia. Are you people certifiable? (CEO said Qantas could now get on with its plans to establish an Asian airline staffed by an Asian workforce) Because they pay cabin staff around $400 per month. Mr Joyce will be making more in a week than his entire Asian workforce will make in a year. Who cares about a local aviation industry so long as we get cheap airfares, outsource these jobs to places that do not have all that ridiculous workplace health and safety and if you break one you can just get a newie…. Kangaroo Airways…Australia deserves it.

    • Michael says:

      10:16am | 01/11/11

      I totally disagree with what is written; David Pemberthy has got it wrong.  The whole saga is precisely the reason for the ‘occupy’ protesters, big business pursuing huge profits at the cost of people’s livelihoods and nothing good can come of it.  There is no reason to assume that other international carriers are not encountering the same pressures that Joyce uses as a pretext for his rationalisation, in fact we know that the pressure is equal on all participants; get bums into seats at any cost.  If QANTAS wants to compete then it should look to its dismal service and forgo the obscene profits for a more reasonable price structure.  To that end, I firmly believe, against my political beliefs, that QANTAS should become a public company owned entirely by the people of Australia and operated by the government of the day.

    • Amazed says:

      10:16am | 01/11/11

      Not really. Upper management really has no right to ground an airline without good technical reasons. Planes only make money while they are in the air and even during the union stoppages the planes have been flying. Cowboys like Joyce and Co have no right to be grounding an airline and inconvieniencing thousands of passengers, many more inconvienienced than any of the union stoppages. What it really comes down to is if Joyce should get a 71% pay rise when his workers, the ones who actually let the airline make money, get a tiny pay rise. To add salt to the wound he voted for his payrise himself!!  And don’t try the argument that other CEOs earn lots as well, he knew his wage when he went for the job, and therefore he should be staying at that wage. Has he performed 71% better than when he started the job?? BWHAHAHA! All he has done is be confrontational.

    • Cyn says:

      10:42am | 01/11/11

      Rubbish. Upper management has every right to ground an airline. Especially when trying to make sure that no industrial action will take place over the busy holiday period. Better they be short-term grounded now, rather than whimsy-strike laden over the next 2 months.

    • Cyn says:

      10:30am | 01/11/11

      Upper management has EVERY right to do what they need to do to ensure business will not be disrupted during, say, the holiday season. The Union strikes cost Qantas more money, than a quick, temporary grounding.

      And this was not about a “tiny pay rise”. This is about the Unions believing they have to right to dictate how Qantas is run and managed. They do not. At all. Their only job is to make sure that their members are getting fair pay and conditions, and since they are paid far more than any other airline, the Union has done its job. This is just bully-boy rubbish and the Unions need to be taught, once and for all, that A. they do not run these companies and have no right to expect to have input and B. their days of holding companies, and the country, to ransom on a whim, are over.

    • Aussie Wazza says:

      10:11am | 01/11/11

      Ping pong, ping pong. My thoughts go back and forth like a table tennis ball.

      Who is wright? Who is rong? What’s fair? What’s who worth?

      Joyce like a number of CEO’s is getting what most Australians see as obscene. How can anyone be worth hundreds of times what I get?

      What does he contribute compared to a pilot, an engineer or for that matter a baggage handler?

      I could do a baggage handlers job; but then lost luggage doesn’t really matter much compared to the importance of being responsible for hundreds of lives.

      I feel confident and safe flying with QANTAS knowing the planes are maintained and flown by Australians who have been trained here. I know the correct parts will be fitted and none pilfered. I feel safe knowing that no weirdo religous nutter is fiddling around.

      Maintained in some backwater third world shambles? No thanks.

      Call centers are bad enough. The current rash of taxi drivers inflicted on Australians; Scarey; And that’s at ground level.

      We need an independant to list the intensions, ambitions and claims of all parties on paper so we, the public; the travellers can grasp the whole.

      Qantas, like the CBA now privatised has lost the plot and as I and most I talk to see it, it’s now all down to greed.

    • Ros says:

      10:11am | 01/11/11

      As you have now had the opportunity to read the report on Joyce’s salary David, and in particular,

      For example,
      while the CEO’s total reported pay (under Accounting Standards) can
      be seen as either 71% up on last year, or 19% below his “at target”
      pay for the year, it can also be seen as 9% down against last year
      when viewed on the basis of “Total Vested Remuneration”, or the
      amount of pay realised during the year.

      I am curious as to why you chose the 71% over the 19% below or 9% down to quantify his salary.

    • James says:

      10:10am | 01/11/11

      In the larger picture, this Qantas Vs Unions saga goes to show that Australia indeed needs a reality check in the present globalised business environment. If Australia were to survive in this present economical climate, being competitive and productive are 2 very key things it has to achieve. Unfortunately a unionised Australia makes it difficult to achieve that. Qantas needs to survive by cutting costs because it is not competitive through creative means not before practiced or acceptable in a unionised Australia.  If the ship is sinking and the unions starts a mutiny on board, what kind of business environment are we offering the companies and investors. The retail sector is one stark example, the online business is an area the unions has no influence and yet it is so tough for the businesses to compete and survive. Adding the unions into the equation and the Australian economy would slowly baked to death and it is already happening. In the nutshell, unions are no longer relevant in today’s business climate as they are obstacles and stumbling blocks for business operations in Australia. This is one reality check. Desperate time calls for desperate measure and if Australia were to survive in the world economy, it has to adapt and be smart even if it means weaning itself off a unionised Australia.

    • Mark says:

      10:07am | 01/11/11

      I had hust got off a flight and was set to fly back from Buenos Aires on Sunday when I found out, talking between the passengers I made it clear that although it has adversely affected me ( I am currently sitting at LAX , 2 days and 4k later) I felt Joyce had made the right call, he IS playing a long game for the benefit of the company he is paid to run. Corporate Australia owes Joyce a debt of gratitude, and ultimately it will be better for all of us, if Australia as a whole continues its current path we will be nothing more than a nation of importers, just sending our wealth overseas.

    • Dan says:

      10:05am | 01/11/11

      I’m confused how a possible pay rise for Qantas workers becomes of national importance. The nation is not interested when I go for a wage review.

      Qantas will have a hide if they keep playing those “I still call Australia home” ads.

      Don’t get me started on CEOs earning multi-million dollar packages, share holders must be stupid for accepting that.

      Don’t get me started on the pathetic excuse we now have for unions, bring back the real unions that actually looked after workers instead of the union heavyweights.

    • Blake says:

      12:45pm | 01/11/11

      You clearly haven’t been reading any of the news.  The pay increase was accepted by QANTAS - they got a CPI increase.

      What wasn’t accepted was the job security - they wanted to make sure that they would keep their jobs once QANTAS moves into Asia.  Which they won’t do.

    • Ritzley says:

      09:56am | 01/11/11

      The company I work for stopped flying Qantas years ago. We used to run a book on how long our flight delay would be each and every time we flew (which was essentially 15 flights to the US a year across all staff). The rule of the bet was that the starting delay period was 3 hours (because no delay was EVER under 3 hours). Over 2 years we calculated the average “normal” delay was approx 5 hours. After the third 24 hour delay - which caused us to miss connector flights in the US and lose a substantial whack of dough - we now fly Air New Zealand and have never had a problem.

    • Cyn says:

      09:54am | 01/11/11

      David - are you, or are you not, aware that Joyce isn’t actually receiving a $2 million payrise per annum?
      That what the press and media like to call his 71 percent payrise, actually consists of shares, and multiple-period earnings that have to be announced for accounting purposes? He’s not getting an extra 2 million a year.

    • RyaN says:

      09:48am | 01/11/11

      There is a simple solution to off-shoring and putting everyone on a level playing field. Levy an import duty on the number of declared man hours of labour done overseas whose benefit is reaped in Australia and could potentially have been done in Australia.
      This includes all sectors of business.

    • RyaN says:

      03:36pm | 01/11/11

      @Chris L: Look at it this way, Carbon Tax = our money going overseas, an import duty = forcing money and jobs going overseas to come back.

    • Chris L says:

      03:14pm | 01/11/11

      Not sure how it would be measured (and I know it would be suicide for a Labor gov to bring in such a “great big new tax”), but I like the idea.

    • Alan says:

      09:44am | 01/11/11

      well considering the end result is trying to lower the wage bill of Qantas and to lower the wages in general I don’t class Qantas as being an australian company.  All the Qantas supporters here would be fighting tooth and nail if any of their terms and conditions of employment were threatened.  But as is the conservative way it’s all ok so long as it is other people who are losing out.  And as far as I’m concerned getting a 71% pay rise is obscene.  When does this happen except at large corporations at the top.  In an era of supposed belt tightening so much for leading by example.  Apparently though this is all fair and reasonable.  When exactly does it stop?  When does too much become too much?  According to the conservatives the answer is NEVER!

      I do find it fascinating to see the support for the 71% pay rise though when you consider what he is doing to earn it.  Cheapening the Qantas brand, making people want to fly virgin instead.  Locking out people who had nothing to do with the dispute. Making any number of people support the unions instead of Qantas management.  Yeah, he’s worth his weight in gold.

    • Loxy says:

      10:40am | 01/11/11

      Alan, Qantas is not trying to lower the wages of their employees and to say so is a blatant lie. The average pay rise happening across both public and the private sector at the moment is around 3-5% per year. This is reasonable in the current economic climate and yet the majority of Qantas unions are asking for 5% or more per year.

      Joyce could have handled the lock out better than he did, no doubt about that, however I don’t see the unions taking any responsibility for all the damage they have caused with their strikes.

    • Cyn says:

      10:40am | 01/11/11

      You’re wrong, Alan. The lockout only included those who were involved in the strike/industrial action. Other employees (those whose Unions have signed their agreements and are working) were not going to be locked out. In fact, even when the airline was grounded, all these people were paid as per normal.

      He’s doing his job as CEO - which is to run Qantas a money maker for its owners and shareholders. Qantas’s wage bill is already higher than that of any other airline - if it was just about wage rises, they’d be striking at Virgin et al, as well. But it’s not. It’s about the Unions making unreasonable demands on a privately-owned company, and actually expecting to have input in how that company is managed and run.

    • Melanie says:

      09:39am | 01/11/11

      Wrong. It’s an ideological dispute over whose interests are more important - shareholders or employees. Frankly, the ever hungry drive towards greater profits at the expense of all else is obscene, and Alan Joyce’s decision to shut down operations is an extreme example of that obscenity.  And people wonder why the Occupy movement is gaining traction?

    • John Hay says:

      09:33am | 01/11/11

      Judicus, the term “Bog Irish” refers to people who made a living from cutting peat from a bog. Joyce was an honours maths and physics student at Trinity College, so your description is as flawed as the rest of your xenophobic spray of ad hominem. Joyce is the CEO of Qantas, not you, and he knows ten thousand times as much as you about running an airline. Your instruction to us to “grow a brain people” is bad advice, as communal brains will never be as creative as individual brains.

    • craig says:

      09:28am | 01/11/11

      Yes Joyce’s salary is the going rate but this needs to change. We’re seeing unprecedented greed here. Joyce cant tell workers to tighten belts and pull the line when he does the opposite. It’s disgusting. There needs to be an international cap placed on what these greedy rotten dirt bags can earn. How much is to much?

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      09:27am | 01/11/11

      Is he a jinx?
      First it was Aer Lingus which, reportedly went broke - or damn near it.
      Then Ansett was deliberately destroyed by Air New Zealand when that airline was going broke & got out of that by charging Ansett for all Air New Zealand’s Fuel etc. which resulted in the collapse of Ansett.
      Now QF is in a mess,
      QF is to borrow a reported $17 billions to buy 19 aircraft for their new International Airline which will compete directly with QF & which will be entirely staffed, crewed, catered, maintained by Off-Shore Personnel being paid rock-bottom wages.
      That will spell the end of QF as an International carrier.
      I suppose that is one way of getting rid of a division which is losing money. Shove it in the “Too Hard” basket.
      Destroy it & the problem simply goes away doesn’t it?
      I suppose there is some mathematical genuis in that.

    • marley says:

      06:20pm | 01/11/11

      @Robert McCormick - first, BA made its first profit in a couple of years this year, and Lufthansa, though profitable, has seen its profits decline.  That’s the airline business - most are working on margins.

      The thing that both BA and Lufthansa have, and Qantas does not, is that London and Frankfurt are hubs for passengers moving into and out of, and all around Europe.  If you flyto Frankfurt, you might then be moving on Lufthansa to Oslo or Kyiv or Dubai or Nairobi or New York.  Fly to Sydney and you’re heading to Perth or Adelaide or Broken Hill. It’s just not the same level of traffic.  Sydney is pretty much the end of the line;  London and Frankfurt have spokes going to heavily trafficked destinations. 

      And I’m sorry, but having flown Qantas from the early 90s on, I can truthfully say that the image that Aussies seem to have of a “first class” airline is a bit misplaced - it’s a solid second tier airline.  No less, but no more.

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      03:01pm | 01/11/11

      Marley, I could not agree more that a business which is losing that much money every year must go but does QF really need to borrow all that money to start up what they have said is tobe ” a Premium Airline”? I presume ” Premium” means a Top of the Range, Full Service Airline, such as already exists in QF International - unless, of course, they mean a No Frills type of operation. If Lufthansa, BRitish Airways etc. can still make a profit without having to go off-shore then why can’t QF? What has gone so wrong with QF International? Until relatively recently QF has always been a first class airline offering service & safety second to none.. I think it is a great pity that QF has allowed this to happen. maybe the others don’t pay the same level of wages as QF does & if that is so & air crews won’t except the same pay rates as the others in order to stay competitive then the only answer is to close QF International down isn’t it?

    • marley says:

      02:24pm | 01/11/11

      @not so gullible - the loss is coming from their international routes.  That’s not projected loss, that’s loss happening right now.

      Singapore and Hong Kong are hubs - they can tap into travellers from anywhere who want to travel on - be it to Europe, to Australia, to North America or to other parts of Asia.  They can put bums on seats on a hundred routes.

      Sydney is an end point, not a hub.  Qantas can fly people to and from Australia to Asia, or to and from Australia to Europe, but has to deal with American and European competition on those routes.  And it cannot compete in quality with the major Asian carriers on the routes into Asia.  I’d take Singapore over Qantas any day of the week.

      More to the point, Qantas can’t offer Singapore to Tokyo or Seoul or Beijing at competitive prices.  That’s a rich market to which it has no access.  Either it sets up some sort of operation based in Asia and not at the end of the world in Sydney, or it gets squeezed out of the regional airline business.

    • not so gullible says:

      01:49pm | 01/11/11

      Marley, but Qantas are paying for all the subsidiary companies like jetstar…and probably the new asian airlines start up costs…  like Robert spoke about fuel with Ansett vs Air NZ… anyone can cook the books to show what they want too….  where is the loss really coming from?

      Can you imagine if banks all did this… sorry everyday accounts are not profitable, so we no longer offer them… loans only here- its the only part of our business that makes any money in this economic climate, if you have money put under your mattress!!!

    • marley says:

      12:37pm | 01/11/11

      @Robert S. McCormick - Qantas is currently losing 200 million a year on its international operations.  No airline can sustain that kind of loss indefinitely nor should it be expected to.  Something has to change.  Whether opening up an Asian subsidy is the answer, I don’t know, but the present business model simply doesn’t work, given that Qantas can never be a “hub” airline like Singapore or Cathay.

    • Brett says:

      09:27am | 01/11/11

      It’s all well and good to say that someone wants to ‘expand in to Asia’. Joyce does not plan to ‘expand’ in to Asia. He intends to outsource elements of the business in to Asia to cut costs and avoid meeting Australian employment standards, which will only serve to line the pockets of shareholders and management.

      I doubt very much that any of the cost cutting benefits will ever be reflected in the Qantas flight price. The flying public are paying for a reputation, one which has been built with the blood, sweat and experience of 90 years of hard work by the ‘dinki-di’ Australian. A reputation that will need to be rebuilt if the base of operations is ever moved out of this country.

      qantaspilots.com.au outlines the industrial action being taken by the pilots, in where they are fighting to have a Qantas flight/Qantas pilot clause entered in to their workplace agreements, which simultaneously ensures job security and also maintains the culture of safety that has been built and maintained for the better part of a century.

      The reputation, quality and surety that Qantas is in the best hands possible is no longer a surety.

      As for the workers…It’s not all about the money, honey.

    • Sarah says:

      09:21am | 01/11/11

      All these people up in arms about Joyce’s salary increase - as though its brutally unfair to the the other workers at Qantas.

      First and foremost he is the CEO - he has more pressure and responsibility on his head than any baggage handler could ever dream of. More responsibility - more money.
      Secondly - the SHAREHOLDERS voted to agree on his payrise. So if Tony Sheldon and his bunch of disaffected employees want to pick a beef - go pick it with the shareholders who decided on this.

      Thirdly - Whether you ‘like’ corporations and capitalism or not - the simple fact of the matter is that Alan Joyces’ job is to make sure Qantas is successful - because he answers to the shareholders. So when people scream about Qantas sending jobs to Singapore - you’ve got the ideals of Corporationism to thank for that.

      When the unions scream blue bloody murder for more money, more favourable conditions for their union members - the costs have to come from somewhere. Qantas is a publicly floated company. It does not exist to improve or better any of us, it does not exist to give everyone warm and fuzzies - Qantas exists to make MONEY. Its business, why is that so outlandish to everyone??

      Joyce should be commended for doing his job. Whether you agree with his actions and choices is pointless - the fact is that this man stepped up to the plate and performed his job and for all intents and purposes so far at least - he has won. Whether you think this is appropriate, or fair is irrelevant. Joyce has just earned his nice big fat pay increase well and truly, Yet there are so many people out there whinging and whining out the ‘morality’ of it. Morality and business? PPPFFFTTT - you’re all fools to try and equate the two. They cannot combine and will never combine.

      And as for unionism in this particular situation - Tony Sheldon is an outright thug and bully and all those union members screaming for ‘more rights, better conditions, more pay’ - spare a thought - you are all paid well. You are all recipients of jobs with a reliable brand in this country. How dare you think you have the right to put your hands out and scream for more - as though you are somehow entitled???

      By all means - get the union in, if a business is doing the wrong thing by its employees - like not giving them enough leave, or drastically under-paying, or forcing unfair agreements on individuals (ala Workchoices). But for people with good solid jobs - what right do you lot have, to sit under this banner of self-important self-entitlement? There are plenty of other people out there who are keen for a job and would love to do what you lot do.

      Its union stunts like this that will do more to guarantee that the Coalition will wipe out union control in the next election, more than anything else. Tony Sheldon and his goons don’t seem to understand moderate behaviour.

    • Kevin Ross says:

      09:14am | 01/11/11

      Unions have stated they are looking at challenging the FWA ruling so they can again strike. Need I write more? Hang in there Alan.

    • Qantas works fan says:

      09:14am | 01/11/11

      Is the main uproar is that ‘someone - you” may miss the melbourne cup if the plane doesn’t fly? - I know there are more important reasons for people being annoyed (medical etc) and i would have been too if i was stranded across the world over -industrial action! But spare a thought for staff that have been dealing with this stress for months over the security of their job… you can say in this day and age what job is secure, is yours? but who goes to work everyday, carrying out maintenance or flying an aircraft - jobs that ultimately need to be done right or planes may crash - people may die… and all the time you are working you don’t know how much longer you will actually have this job for… and if you loose it where do you go? -isnt this stress the reason Alan Joyce grounded the airline over the weekend sighting ‘safety- concerns” due to this distraction? the distraction still exists… maybe even more so now Alan Joyce is almost certain to get approval to offshore jobs under the banner of Qants Asia (hang on arent we asia pacific here-isnt australia a suitable home base?? - i have no problems with Qantas Japan - is a different region - creating new business)

      Also staff are so specialized - jetstar maybe - at a lower pay - oh hang on isnt that Qantas just painted differently? - no they still fly when Qantas ground…

      RIP Qantas, Bonds, SPC.. just to name a few!

    • rb says:

      09:12am | 01/11/11

      How long has the open sky policiy been in place?

    • Ros says:

      09:12am | 01/11/11

      David prior to running with the PR on Joyce’s salary you might have had a look at the Annual report. As you didn’t I provide the relevant extract. read and learn.

      For the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) (and other
      Key Management Personnel (KMP) assessed against the Group
      Scorecard), this resulted in a STIP scorecard outcome of 65.2% of
      target levels.
      The other key decisions of the Board reflected in this year’s
      Remuneration disclosures are as follows:
      —— The Fixed Annual Remuneration (FAR) of the CEO and KMP were
      reviewed with regard to market pay movements and a material
      increase in the scope of one of the KMP roles
      A three per cent increase to FAR was approved for the CEO
      —— The “at target” pay levels for the CEO and KMP are set with
      reference to other S&P/ASX50 companies. The total reported
      pay level for the CEO for 2010/2011 is $5,008,000, which is up
      considerably from his reported pay level for the previous year,
      but below his “at target” pay of $6,180,000
      —— Last year the Board made a carefully considered decision not
      to pay a cash bonus and instead make an award of restricted
      shares under the STIP
      The consequence of this decision, detailed in the 2009/2010
      Remuneration Report, is that the value of these deferred
      STIP awards are accounted for primarily as remuneration
      in 2010/2011 rather than in 2009/2010. This is the key factor
      behind the remuneration increases disclosed for the CEO
      and some of the other KMP in the remuneration tables, and
      an important element in understanding the context of this
      year’s remuneration disclosures.
      Because of potential confusion in interpreting remuneration table
      values (which can involve multiple accounting periods and valuation
      dates) Qantas has this year provided an additional “Supplemental
      Information” disclosure. This disclosure provides information as to the
      value of earnings, including share-based payments reported in prior
      periods which have actually vested during the year. For example,
      while the CEO’s total reported pay (under Accounting Standards) can
      be seen as either 71% up on last year, or 19% below his “at target”
      pay for the year, it can also be seen as 9% down against last year
      when viewed on the basis of “Total Vested Remuneration”, or the
      amount of pay realised during the year.
      Again this year, the Board has decided to defer all awards to the
      CEO and KMP under the 2010/2011 STIP. The Board considers that
      this is appropriate in view of the challenging trading conditions that
      Qantas continues to face, and in light of the measures currently
      being taken on a number of important growth and change projects.
      —— The component of the STIP award that would normally be
      awarded in cash will be deferred until the end of February 2012.
      Up until the end of the deferral period, the award will, subject to
      regulatory approval, be linked to the Qantas share price, and thus
      its value will continue to be exposed to risk through the period that
      the “Building a Stronger Qantas” initiatives are being launched
      —— The component of the STIP award that would normally be
      awarded in deferred shares, will be awarded as deferred
      shares, with a two year restriction period
      This decision to defer both elements of the STIP Award is also
      intended as a retention initiative through this period of considerable
      challenge and change initiatives, as any awards that have not yet
      vested are forfeited if the executive resigns.

    • Ryder says:

      09:03am | 01/11/11

      Lets move every job in Australia to Asia, including yours Penberthy, and those jobs we can not move we should just bring in workers to do at the wage or salary they would earn in their home country.

      We should also immediately make unions illegal with the exception of course of any organisation that looks after the rights of its professional members like the AMA and the Bar Association as they are not unions. They are just a group of people who happen to work in the same field and have formed organisations (not unions) to look after their interests.

      We should also pass legislation reducing and capping wages to a level equal to the average in SE Asia and dramatically increase the power of employers so that they can hire and hire and fire at will (or a whim) if they so desire.

      We should immediately pass further legislation that removes us from every international agreement regarding human rights as the final obstacle to big business moving forward in a profitable manner.

      Do all that and just watch the money trickle down. We will be able to live in a vibrant and cosmopolitan society just like Delhi or Guangzhou then. Enjoy!

      It is frightening to realise that big business has so many supporters when in fact what most of you are really supporting is ultimately your own destruction. In your complacent arrogance your Global masters must be laughing at you every single day for siding with them.

    • St. Michael says:

      02:25pm | 01/11/11

      “Many of the detractors of unions commenting here may indeed be educated but they lack the ability to understand what an important role labour movements have played in western democracies and the slow upward progress in living conditions that they have helped drive.”

      Please.

      That’s like saying flogging should remain a part of the criminal justice system simply because it was an Important Part Of Western Democracy.  It’s also relevant since the last time the unions were responsible for any quantum leaps in conditions other than their own members was roughly around the time flogging was still a punishment.

      You can only trade on a supposedly useful past so long.  The western world’s moved on a tiny bit since the deaths of the Industrial Martyrs.  Whatever credibility unions had was long ago burned up in (take your pick) the BLF, the Painters and Dockers dispute, Craig Thomson’s credit card, or striking over the flavours of ice cream.

    • Jordan says:

      11:35am | 01/11/11

      I could not agree more with you Ryder!

      Many of the detractors of unions commenting here may indeed be educated but they lack the ability to understand what an important role labour movements have played in western democracies and the slow upward progress in living conditions that they have helped drive.

      Look to Asia for an example of what life is like for the many when the majority of people have no power to negotiate collectively with their masters.

      Unions are far from perfect but they are the only way most workers have a voice.

    • Caustic says:

      11:28am | 01/11/11

      While everyone else is just laughing at you and your straw-men.

    • Pilby says:

      10:42am | 01/11/11

      Hear Hear!!!!!

    • Carl Palmer says:

      09:03am | 01/11/11

      Point One – from a purely superficial position I agreed. Not quite sure if the comparison to Chrysler is accurate, back then Chrysler was in deep deep trouble, “Qantas” is “sort of”. More on this below…  It was the shareholders – the owners of the company who near unanimously gave him the pay rise. With their new found powers, shareholders only weeks earlier, were voting with their feet on a number of AGM’s knocking back a number of proposed Rem’s and placing boards on notice. This wasn’t the case with Qantas.

      Point Two – I thought it was a great move. The unions and the Govt underestimated and misread the situation completely. The Fed Govt in particular was happy for the unions “‘to bake Qantas slowly’ even though 2 state Govt’s had pleaded for them to become involved. Let’s also not mention the endless meeting with the Fed’s / Anthony Albanese. Recall that unions would threaten to strike and then strike, threaten to strike and withdrawn their intention to strike and then blame QANTAS for any disruption as a result of QANTAS reacting to what they thought would be a strike. The sudden grounding of the fleet made the unions but more importantly the Fed Govt look like gooses running around with the heads chopped off. They had no idea. Penbo, as an aside, do you think Qantas would have told the Fed Govt if the Libs were in power?? 

      Point Three – “..,.it would probably have come as a surprise to most Australians given that its profits rose last year…”. I think you will find that the increase in profits came from Jetstar and not Qantas. I think you will also find that if it wasn’t for Jetstar Qantas would be in Chrysler territory and your comparison above valid. As for the Patrick comparison, the big difference was- as you have pointed out “…..Howard Government cheered him on as the dogs were literally unleashed on unionised workers,..”, it’s very clear the current landscape is the complete opposite.

      How all of this plays out over the next month or so will be very interesting indeed. The slugfest has only just begun. I don’t hold much hope if the Fed’s become involved as I see another Pink Bats debacle charging our way with Anthony Albanese & Chris Evans at the helm.

    • Mayday says:

      05:09pm | 01/11/11

      Indeed and I wonder who to believe in regard to the conversation between Joyce and Albanese?

      The other thing of interest is Tony Sheldon running for ALP President, what sort or salary does this position offer and is he a popular candidate?

    • Judicus says:

      08:53am | 01/11/11

      What a total load of crap most of this blogging is.  To blame Gillard for this is just a joke.  Joyce had worked out what exactly he and his Qantas Board were going to do days before, knowing there was nothing any government could do to stop his huge bog Irishman dummy spit. Joyce and his Board have an agenda and it is very much about dismantling Qantas.  The role of unions is to stick up for workers and that’s what they are doing.  To ground all flights was unnecessary and a massive over reaction on the part of Joyce and his board.  They wanted to prove a point which was how much power they had to bring this country to its knees, and they did that.  What they also did was trash their brand.  Do they care about that?  No they don’t.  They will dismantle Qantas and send what remains of it to Asia, and they will have Jetstar in Australia to compete against the cheaper airlines.  Why not just be honest and treat their workers and the public with some respect instead of going through this charade and causing chaos for everyday people.  It took an overpaid, arrogant yank to bring Telstra to its knees and now we have an overpaid ($96k per week) arrogant bog Irishman screwing with an Aussie icon and the moron bloggers blame the government.  Grow a brain people, this is way above anything the government can do.  This is an organisation planning and implementing a huge change in terms of structure, location and IR arrangements.  Interestingly, Indian workers are on the march for higher wages as are Chinese workers.

    • Liz of Darwin says:

      11:28am | 01/11/11

      Yes indeed ! The dismantling, and asset “stripping” of QANTAS can be blatantly planned and achieved ..... meanwhile this true thuggery is supported by those who think they are too well off to resort to any organised challenge of not only corporate greed but ongoing corporate kleptocrascy

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      10:30am | 01/11/11

      I agree. The proof is Qantas’ subsidiary Jetconnect which is being used as a template. Either get used to a Qantas as an Asian based airline, or an Australian government subsidized airline or a dead Qantas. Most likely the third option. Alan Joyce is a CEO with poor management skills, poor negotiation skills who has done irreparable damage to the Qantas brand.

    • Joe says:

      08:50am | 01/11/11

      The article made some good points, but I am not sure I could draw the conclusion that Joyce lost the battle.  I suspect he was very aware of the collateral damage that would be done.

      1) On the salary issue - he was about to go into a high stakes battle that would put him as the bad guy.  If I was to do something like that, I would want some additional security to cover the fall I may be taking.  Perhaps that was compensation for his future unemployment over this issue - someone has to be the bad guy and take a fall.

      2) Last week, it was announced travel insurance policies wouldn’t consider industrial action as unforeseen losses.  I was forced not to travel Qantas because if the Unions stopped work, I would be personally responsible for the additional costs.  24 hours later, I have certainty.  Now I am back to choosing my carrier on their merits.  To me, that’s a good outcome.

      3) The anger and people not prepared to fly Qantas over this issue.  Guess what, people have short memories.  He has stopped the bleeding and within a month, people will be back to picking carriers based on cost, allowances, menus, brand loyalty, frequent flyer plans or whatever else they do.  No more industrial action means the repair starts today, not some time next year.

      To me, smart played and I applaud him with his strategy.

    • Eva says:

      02:36pm | 02/11/11

      No people don’t have short memories when it comes to abysmal service by an airline. Qantas made me absolutely livid with the way they treated their customers at Tullamarine one day five years ago and I haven’t flown them since. I never will again, so those destinations only served by qantas/jetstar won’t ever see me as a domestic tourist.

      I will welcome the replacement of qantas by other carriers when they go belly up as a result of this latest assault on their customers.

    • Dendy says:

      08:45am | 01/11/11

      It has intrigued me for many weeks now that for a company that must spend millions on marketing, they’ve got the public relations management of this dispute so wrong. Their usual spokesperson, the wispy haired, singlet wearing, humourless Olivia, is just not the person to have been selling the Qantas line on the ongoing industrial dispute. She has been replaced by the big boss who foolishly accepted a massive rise in pay a few days before shutting down the airline. No, no, no. Public Relations 101 would decry this as a disaster. Are their any PR/Media managers at all within Qantas? I am dumbfounded they have just got this so wrong.

    • John Hay says:

      08:31am | 01/11/11

      Let’s not forget that most of Mr Joyce’s wage is stolen by the tax department. The government is the biggest benefactor of his wage. When do the unionists mention this, as they carry on about his wage like a bunch of Stalinist KGB agents? They’re not happy with the huge bite their masters take. They want the rest of it.

    • Holly says:

      08:28am | 01/11/11

      Have finally found one article which gives some detail about what the unions are actually asking of Qantas.  The base rate of baggage handlers, ground staff and ramp services staff is currently $38,000 - which seems to me pretty much on par with cut price airlines. This makes them among the lowest paid workers in the country.  I suppose most of your union damning commenters would be happy to survive on such a salary??
      The problem is that workers on these arrangements come to rely on shift allowances and penalty rates to make a decent living.  The union had acknowledged that the company needed some operational flexibility but wanted Qantas to limit the amount of work done by contractors to 20% rather than Qantas preferred level of 50%.  They were also seeking for the same training and safety provisions to apply to contractors ( often an area where companies try to cut costs).  Their ambit claim was 5% base salary which was negotiable.  Could someone please explain why this is considered “greedy”.  Adam Diver and others - explain why this is considered greedy.  Maybe do not make such assertions unless you are prepared to declare what salary you receive personally, under what sort of agreement and how it was negotiated for you.

    • callcentre weenie says:

      08:53pm | 01/11/11

      Esteban, all those pay cuts due to my bonus being re-defined and my shift loading cuts were done whilst I was on a WorkChoices AWA. I’m on a new agreement under Fair Work, there’s no change in the conditions of my agreement from the AWA, just a different name.

      Neither Gillard with FW or Howard and Workchoices legislation are to blame for my pay cuts. Just the company I work for using the “global financial crisis” as a reason for changing loading (cutting my pay by 15%) 12 months ago and giving me a 0.5% pay increase this year. My cost of living has increased under a Liberal Coalition govt in WA substantially more than the measley 0.5% pay increase I received.

      Unlike most of the ignorant posters in this thread, I look at both sides. My pay sucks, but it has everything to do with my employer and nothing to do with the state or Fed govt.

      Wake up Australia. You’re all so narrow minded with Labor Vs Liberal, you fail to see the corporate greed surrounding you, Neither party will save us from the companies we work for. There is no loyalty from the employer, just the urge to make money at any cost. They just hit you with media Rohypnol and you don’t know that you’re being taken for a ride.

    • esteban says:

      02:34pm | 01/11/11

      Call centre weenie. No payrise in 3 years. No bonus. Thank God we got rid of work choices for !

    • callcentre weenie says:

      02:12pm | 01/11/11

      These baggage handlers get paid less than some of the call centre staff I work with. I don’t see a problem with them getting a payrise. Where I work, I haven’t had a CPI increase in wages in three years, and I’m having my wages cut each year by my bonus being “re-defined”.  I could also have my job outsourced, already dodged that bullet once!  I can’t strike, I’m a member of a non union call centre. I’ll just have to suck it up and find another job that pays me more, but will also still pay more than a baggage handler.

      Alan Joyce can take a hike. Any CEO that works over a company who’s share value has halved in 2 yrs should be given the boot, not a bonus.

    • Al says:

      11:48am | 01/11/11

      Kelvin: They are also paid in excess of the Award requirements which calculates to $33259.20 per annum (or $16.83 per hour).
      And this does not take into account the transitional arrangements in the new awards which means the rate may be even lower than this.

    • Al says:

      11:41am | 01/11/11

      Kelvin:
      Let me ask you this then.
      Why should a baggage handler be guranteed a rate of pay higher than the guranteed rate for a trades qualified person in most other industries?
      This would include many chefs, tradespersons working in hospitality, tradespersons in factories etc.

    • Cyn says:

      11:10am | 01/11/11

      Please don’t be so naive as to think that this is about a payrise.

      This is about the Unions trying to run Qantas, and tell the owners how it should be managed.

      The unions have stepped well over their boundaries.

    • Adam Diver says:

      10:25am | 01/11/11

      @ Holly, its greedy because thier wage increase has no benefit for the company that employs them. If they are unhappy with the pay and conditions they can get a different job, not hold there employers to ransom. Until this year I have survived on a smaller salary whilst raising a family so the monetary figure is irrelevant to me.

      The market dictates thier value, not the unions, or we will have a previously high paid unemployed union force.

    • Kelvin says:

      10:02am | 01/11/11

      @AL… errr, yes it does still make them amongst the lowest paid. Just because someone might be paid less it doesn’t nullify any of @Holly’s previous statements.

      It certainly doesn’t put them in a “high” or “average” wage bracket now does it? It would certainly be amongst the lowest of even the low income earners.

    • Debs says:

      10:00am | 01/11/11

      The dispute was never about money .. if all the baggage handlers were asking for was a 5% increase this would have been settled ages ago.

    • Al says:

      09:04am | 01/11/11

      “This makes them among the lowest paid workers in the country.”

      No it doesn’t, it equates to approx $19.20 per hour.

      Many positions have ROP below this, and even the minimum trade rate is usualy only around $18.06 per hour.

    • Pushbiker says:

      08:23am | 01/11/11

      Some bits of this article are quite logical, however, the missing bits. Firstly, it is too important in a nation so reliant upon air travel to let the globalised market forces have free reign, as the 68,000 have seen, plus of course damage to tourism and brand AUS. Secondly the going rates for CEO’s is not a given, seeing shareholders have had no returns, this should be reflected by the pay of the CEO. Thirdly the lack of judgment of the Board in all of this is a major concern, I do not think they are fit to run such a big company, they do not have the smarts. Finally of course the sheer rudeness and embarrassing the PM, the Govt and all of AUS by pulling the pin during CHOGM.. or was this some perverse sort of brinkmanship.. Address those issues please else the article is a -b on the occupy scales

    • Fergie says:

      08:12am | 01/11/11

      The issues are actually quite simple and clear - Qantas needs to reduce its cost base in order to remain competitive against ferocious global competition, and its management needs to be able to run the airline in the way which will achieve this while maintaining Qantas’s brand values (especially flight safety). Notwithstanding its operating profit last year the cost pressures are growing all the time. The company’s big failure is its inability to tell its story in a coherent and compelling way. The union case is winning supporters by default, not by force of argument.

      And awarding Alan Joyce a $2 million pay rise just before grounding the airline was a tactical PR blunder of epic proportions.

    • prosperity says:

      08:07am | 01/11/11

      The Qantas dispute may not be about Mr. Joyce’s salary, but the salaries of our business leaders generally prompt some concern within our community. When I was a boy earning six quid a week, one hundred quid seemed to be a top salary (sixteen times my own).  More recently, it seemed to be a rule-of-thumb that the highest paid in the land earned about one hundred times the average Australian wage, currently about $65,000 p.a. (ABS) and translating to a top business leader’s salary of about $6,500,000.
      But they’re not $6.5 million, are they?  They’re up to four and five times that amount, or about 400 or 500 times the average wage.
      That’s about when many quite reasonable Australians get a bit twitchy. As for who can best run Qantas, for Mr.Joyce’s salary I will begrudgingly give up my retirement and run the bloody airline myself.

    • Ben C says:

      01:13pm | 01/11/11

      @ prosperity

      Please stay in retirement, at least you won’t have to learn to count again.

      @ Reality Bites

      The shares that Matt is referring to are restricted - they can’t be sold until a certain number of years after receiving them.

      Is the average Joe Blow willing to give up a chunk of salary to receive a parcel of shares that:
      a) are only given to him if he meets certain performance criteria; and
      b) can’t be sold within three years of receiving them?

      If so, then we can compare Alan Joyce’s remuneration package with the average Joe Blow employee. If not, then we must talk cash only, because that’s what the average Joe Blow employee wants, not shares that he may not even receive, and if received can’t be converted into cash for the next three years, and pays no dividends.

    • prosperity says:

      10:25am | 01/11/11

      Matt: Risky though they may be, perhaps the average wage earner could be given the option of some of these share-based incentives. Three more points:
      1) Precious few highly placed executives seem to miss out on their (usually soft)  performance targets;
      3) It is quite easy to work out the outcome of an executive package compared with an “average joe blow’s” pay; and
      4/ People (you know, those blobs with whom you share your space) may actually be more informed about many things for which you do not give them credit - even exec (sic) pay.

    • Reality bites says:

      10:24am | 01/11/11

      Matt,

      1. The problem is that these ‘performance targets’ are set so low that it is almost impossible not to achieve them. Even when they don’t achieve them they are still given these bonuses. Commonwealth Bank anyone?

      2. As you seem to be saying that as it’s not cash it cannot be compared to joe blow’s pay demands. Then give joe blow the same free shares. Then we could compare.

      The executives invariably get these payments even when they leave due to abysmal performance. The reality is nothing is really at risk for them.

    • PatG says:

      09:33am | 01/11/11

      Also, no one seems to have mentioned the 250,000 shares (from a previous share based incentive) Joyce forfeited due to targets not being met

    • Matt says:

      09:17am | 01/11/11

      54% of the so-called “salary” is actually share-based incentives which may never actually get paid. Two points in this respect:

      1) They only come home IF he meets performance targets
      2) It’s not cash being paid so you can’t really compare it to the average joe blow baggage handler’s pay demands

      People actually need to start getting away from the rhetoric and understand how exec pay is actually determined/ calculated.

    • Anna C says:

      08:05am | 01/11/11

      Ah the joys of Globalisation.

    • mick says:

      08:02am | 01/11/11

      There are a number of issues:

      1.  CEO pay generally.

      The pay of CEOs has been climbing at a much faster rate than ordinary salaries for 2 decades.  We had multiple of x 40 in the 1980s but now have x 800.  IT is obscene and unashamed greed is the only description.  They get away with it because other companies (institutions) own most of the shares in a company and they never vote against a pay rise for CEOs becuase this flows on to them.  Only governments can stop this by forcing better disclosure when it comes to voting on pay increases.

      2. The second issue involves the general issue of the global marketplace.  Whilst this is a real time phenomena one has to realise that you cannot export every job in the country, or any other country for that matter.  This is why the textile industry dies in Australia and if it continues we will have massive unemployment.  Is this what we want for our children?

      3. Qantas.  This management is a national disgrace.  Whereas it is entrusted with the management of the company it is not expected to act contrary to the national interest. 

      I will never ever fly Qantas.  It can keep its offshore workforce which is mediocre at best.  I will fly local as long as possible.  Maybe about time our government began reintroducing tariffs so that out whole way of life is not brought down around our ears.

    • Brian says:

      11:37am | 01/11/11

      1. I challenge your numbers. Based on the current minimum wage, a ratio of x800 would be pay of around $25million, yet we are now complaining when Joyce gets a fifth of that. He also took a pay cut of nearly 50% over the preceding two years.

      2. You can’t export every job, that is true. Let’s try to play to our strengths though? Research, teaching, high technology and raw materials. So far we haven’t had massive unemployment despite all the industries ‘dying’, and at the moment we actually have sections of industry crying out for workers!

      3. They are expected to act int he shareholders best interest. The national interest is the responsibility of the government, not private enterprises.

      Finally - I’ve found many Australian QANTAS staff to put across a bored impression, unhelpful and on one occasion outright offensive - not all of them, but enough to put me off. I’ve not found the same issues with Singapore Airlines. Add that to the fact that the recent issues have happened almost exclusively on the aircraft still maintained in Australia, and I don’t think it’s too much of an issure going offshore…

    • Dodge says:

      07:59am | 01/11/11

      And there I was thinking unions were an important counter to the excesses of the wealthy and powerful. I must be blind to the advances society has taken in such strides

      You conservatives have me sold! Really appreciate the education from wisened ‘punch’ posters. Clearly the modern CEO and business have their workers conditions and salary dear to their heart, far more than profit margins and return to shareholders!

      Yep, in this day of closer community and people acting with such charity (lol), ideals such as unions have no place. Nor is there millions of asian workers lining up for positions currently held by Australians.

      Scrap the unions! Allow business people tto set working condtions! Yeah, that’s going to work out really well.

    • St. Michael says:

      05:23pm | 04/11/11

      So is your straw man.

    • Dodge says:

      09:38am | 02/11/11

      Your want to regress to pre industrial revolution times is depressing and out of touch.

    • St. Michael says:

      03:29pm | 01/11/11

      “Ideals” and “unions” really shouldn’t be in the same sentence together.

    • JIM says:

      07:57am | 01/11/11

      Sorry to say Penbo, but you seem to be falling into the very trap you criticised others for - that of a simplistic solution.  You seem to be of the view that Joyce becasue you perceive he has done well in the past will continue to and that the business needs to be run like every other business - ie cut costs.  The story here is a little more complicated.  Unfortunately for QANTAS the brand value has been slipping for years and Joyce hasn’t been helping.  It used to be that QANTAS was the high water mark for international and domestic airtravel.  Now it seems to be a bit lost and cant seem to articulate it’s value proposition other than it has a club for business people.

      If the management of QANTAS were serious they would not be taking their lead from cost cutting airlines around the world.  Instead they would be trying to resurrect their reputation as the safest, friendliest airline and explain to people that to get the best costs a little more.  Instead they seem to be trying to win on price.

    • Adam Diver says:

      07:53am | 01/11/11

      The Unions are completely outdated. They battles have been fought and won. In the global, and even domestic marketplace, your not happy with your pay and conditions, you work somewhere else.

      This countries IR laws, and protections are very generous for workers as it is, demanding more from a company is just another form of greed IMO.

    • no one cares anymore says:

      07:46am | 01/11/11

      I know, how about who gives a stuff!! I’m a platinum Qantas FF and a Gold FF with Virgin, but I couldn’t care less who I fly with. The TWU is run by bogans that I do not care about…..send the jobs overseas and then people might think about good they actually had it. Baggage handlers wanting 5%, you morons can’t even get my bag to me in a timely manner. There’d be some Pakistani blokes over the moon to get that sort of money for doing essentially a monkeys job.
      Get over it red necks….you don’t run this country, and if Aussies are so patriotic, why do so many of them fly emirates to save 200 bucks???

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      04:12pm | 01/11/11

      @no one cares anymore blah, blah- Hmm, strange how a country artificially inflates its property market with first home buyers grants, negative gearing and high immigration and increases the cost of living with a supermarket duopoly and then beats its workers around the head with a stick when they want a pay increase to cope. Something will eventually break. Probably Australia. Good luck with the mobs burning down your mansion in 20 years time….

    • Ben says:

      03:23pm | 01/11/11

      Thanks for your input Tombowler, I’m sure others would agree with you, but the only reason I mentioned my employment was to draw to light the fact the we all place different values on different things. I personally don’t put value on the making of money and rate the role of doctor, police officer and scientist higher in the grand scheme of things, I’m glad i live in a country where if you work harder there is a good chance you’ll earn more and I accept that without our industry leaders our quality of life would be much lower. My only hope is that a social conscience will kick in at some stage. I admit I was wrong for the generalisations at the start, but I find it difficult to remain calm when someone directly attacks a group of people (those people being the working middle class), based on opinions so short sighted, ignorant and classist. It seems we’ve been broken down into 3 groups, the unscrupulous rich, those that want to be the unscrupulous rich and those that just accept that this is the way it has always been and always will be. I’m still an idealist and hope that there is enough to go round for everyone.
      I’m wondering why you only focused on the personal rather than the actual overall comment, so be it, but I’m completely open to being convinced of the error of my ways. The only argument I hear is that all industry will be unable to continue if we pay Australian workers a decent wage, which is a tad worrying if your not in the upper echelon of management (where we know hard work only counts for so much, it becomes about who you know and what you’re willing to do for them).
      One last thing, I have no monopoly on anything, I’m always open to differing opinions, so go ahead.

    • Tombowler says:

      02:05pm | 01/11/11

      @Ben

      You say “..as an ex-soldier and counter-terrorism specialist…” as if you deserve some sort of kudos for either of these roles.

      While I am quick to praise the bravery of those that fight overseas and support the aim of both wars I resent the implication that serving with an AIF badge raises the value of your input above that of an accountant, lawyer or construction worker..

      You will, of course, hastily deny that you intended to allude to your delusion of superiority in that statement but I point out that you mentioned this despite the qualifications being irrelevant to your argument; i.e. they spoke solely to your credit.

      You also come across as a really ‘holier-than-thou’, self-satisfied arsehole with a complex leading you to believe that you have some sort of monopoly on logic and morality.

      Pretentious twat would be my ‘sweeping generalisation’

    • Ben says:

      09:51am | 01/11/11

      You, my friend are part of the problem, the inability to look beyond your own front door or have the slightest bit of empathy for anyone that didn’t go to a private school & daddy’s university. You’re a product of your environment (I do make sweeping generalisations, but I make up for it by making sweeping generalisations about people who make sweeping generalisations). The majority of Australians are not in a position to negotiate a better deal for themselves and that is why they need representation, which the unions, who are far from perfect, provide. The bigger picture is that if you continue to eradicate basic rights in the work place, asking more for less from your workforce, morale and inturn productivity suffer. A small acknowledgement at the coalface of all industries goes a long way in providing a content and productive workforce. Some innovation at the top, rather than just redundancies and repealing conditions may see Australian Industry thrive. We have an option here, create a working environment where real skills are compensated (I don’t need a change consultant on a 6 figure salary to tell me what the entirety of the non head office staff already know) and a business plan that involves looking for new technology, processes and industry, or we can continue to abuse the third world while trying to bring onshore conditions down to compete with slave labour, which the end result will be social unrest and market instability. A happy and innovative workplace is a productive one.
      One last thing, as an ex soldier and counter terrorism specialist, I may see little value in anything that you provide this world, but I’m not going to berate or belittle your job on an anonymous public forum, we all have different roles and without someone to do them your life and mine would be much harder.

    • John Adams says:

      07:44am | 01/11/11

      Will the members of our elite sporting teams still wear the logo of their sponsor, QANTAS, with pride?

    • Ben in Canberra says:

      07:39am | 01/11/11

      The TWU have today announced they are considering appealing the FWA ruling. Does this not fly in the ace of the Gillard Governments mantra that the FW Act worked exactly as it was supposed to? FFS it’s an act written by an unionised Labor politician and by default defers to the employees over the employer. Sheldon and the TWU have proven themselves unworthy of any further media coverage. They typify the Labor tradition; we’re right and we hate everything that doesn’t suit our agenda. Joyce should be lauded in the media for standing up to the bullshit the TWU et al have continued to get away with in the recent years.

    • Chris L says:

      03:01pm | 01/11/11

      That’s right Joan, and the shere magnitude of the number of appeals there have been against murder convictions means that murder laws are a failed policy.

    • John A Neve says:

      09:22am | 01/11/11

      Joan,
      You either believe in the law or you don’t. Just what is wrong with a decision being appealed?
      Don’t you think any legistlation should be open to challenge?
      Gillard is far from perfect, but then in a democracy ( I use that term very loosely), the people get what they vote for.

    • Joan says:

      08:06am | 01/11/11

      Would seem then that bully boy Tony Sheldon has no intention of going by Fair Work Act decision. Yet another total failed policy by Gillard. Gillard - failed to use the Fair Work Act and unions ignore Fair Work Act and want to do as they please,  the F in Fair Work stand for Failure - Gillard a total and abject Failure with everything she touches.

    • John A Neve says:

      07:52am | 01/11/11

      Ben,
      All legistlation is open tp appeal, just wait for the decision, theres a good boy.

    • JD says:

      07:20am | 01/11/11

      Something of an indictment of today’s journalism (and media consumers) standards that the first decent, non-emotive, take-a-step back piece of commentary comes form a blog, and not from the front page…

    • Peter Drucker says:

      07:11am | 01/11/11

      A billion dollars off the market cap, a lower stock price and a company not completely out of the red… so what exactly did he do to earn a whopping 71% payrise? As a CEO, he has a lot of explaining to do. I’m a manager and I dont get 71% payrises for laclustre performance! Also, how do you justify a 71% payrise to one employee when that amount could have given a 2% rise to all the workers?? Joyce is a self serving dude who is getting a payment to become the scapegoat at Qantas. He will get his megabucks when he is un ceremoniously dumped. The number of people who will shun Qantas will only increase with this stupid, unthought strategy.

    • Shelly says:

      02:28pm | 01/11/11

      And don’t forget the recurrent expenses + superannuation, increases to the cost of penalty rates and leave loading, payroll tax and Workcover.

    • Brian says:

      11:29am | 01/11/11

      Actually, assuming that the average QANTAS employee earns $50k (which I would suggest is slightly low, to be honest, but makes the maths easier), the extra $2m Joyce got would provide a 0.125% payrise on the employment figures of 32,000 that I’ve seen. About $62.50 per employee, per year. For that matter, he took pay-cuts of about 50% over the last two years.

    • Holly says:

      07:10am | 01/11/11

      The CEO of VIrgin has something that Alan Joyce will never have.  He has people skills.  Implementing change requires people skills not bullying.  Get with the psychology of all this.  Just as the majority of climate denialists who write on this site are fundamentally afraid of change, then so are workers who see their jobs security being threatened.  But you condemn their fear even though is is more rational than your own.

      I agree that the Joyce salary element is a bit of a furphy, but people who are constantly referring to “thuggish” unions are either retired, or have a job which does not rely on regular wage negotiations.

      Those calling for changes to the current legislation seem unaware that under Workchoices there were the same provisions for protected industrial action during negotiations.  If anything needs to be done it is to strengthen the legislation by requiring a similar notification period for a lockout.  Alan Joyce’s argument that giving notice would have affected pilots ability to fly planes is an insult to all his pilots.  As I said, the man has no leadership skills.

      The thing that annoyed me most about him was his ability to change and embellish his story with each interview he gave.  Sounding familiar?

    • St. Michael says:

      01:00pm | 01/11/11

      “I agree that the Joyce salary element is a bit of a furphy, but people who are constantly referring to “thuggish” unions are either retired, or have a job which does not rely on regular wage negotiations.”

      Not really.  They understand that unions’ existence rests on intimidation.  Either raise our pay or our conditions or we will damage your business by going on strike.  Without that tactic, unions would not exist.  That is the underlying reason a business has no choice but to negotiate with a union.  That is what most people understand as “thuggery”.

    • Ben C says:

      12:47pm | 01/11/11

      @ Holly

      “Those calling for changes to the current legislation seem unaware that under Workchoices there were the same provisions for protected industrial action during negotiations.”

      Surely you can’t be too blind to see why the law needs to be changed. If so, let me guide you step by step:

      1. WorkChoices brought down John Howard.
      2. The Labor government, led by Kevin Rudd, vowed to destroy WorkChoices, because it was unfair.
      3. If the Labor government wanted to destroy WorkChoices, then please explain why the provisions that you have described above are in Fair Work.

      “...under Workchoices there were the same provisions for protected industrial action during negotiations.” If it was bad in WorkChoices, then it’s bad in Fair Work. That’s why the legislation needs to be changed.

    • Joan says:

      08:24am | 01/11/11

      .  Sounding familiar?  yep like Gillard and her many positions and explanations of her `No Carnon Tax ` lie

    • Deena says:

      07:09am | 01/11/11

      The ALP are one with the unions, blaming Joyce is one thing but the unions and the political powers behind them are the true devils in all this. For Christ’s sake Juliar is getting a hefty pension for not doing her job. I mean no wonder she isn’t working as a lawyer, she couldn’t hack the real world of handling a real job where results matter!

    • ts says:

      07:08am | 01/11/11

      sheldon’s members should ask themselves exactly what he has achieved by escalating this so far.

      what did he get them - nothing except an an increasingly antagonistic management towards the workers.

      thanks for that - with friends like him ....

    • Kylie says:

      07:05am | 01/11/11

      Hard to explain to people who’ve never read a remuneration report or understand how executive pay works, but the bulk of his “pay rise” is in share options which a) he can’t sell straight away and b) he only receives after meeting multiple hurdles. I actually can’t think of any corporate which has successfully explained this issue to the public so everyone just assumes CEO salaries are paid out in cash.

    • Ben C says:

      12:20pm | 01/11/11

      @ AKoiLus

      How do you give something back when you haven’t got it in the first place?

      Dipstick.

    • Brian says:

      11:23am | 01/11/11

      AkoiLus, the share options aren’t ‘given’ until the hurdles are met. They do not vest, and they cannot be sold. In other words, they are worthless until they become shares, which does not happen until the specified conditions are met. Feel free to look at all the renumeration reports, I guarantee you’ll find a statement like ‘1,500,000 out of a posible 2,500,000 incentive options were awarded’. Or words to that effect, anyway.

    • RB says:

      11:10am | 01/11/11

      @AKoiLus. You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Options have a strike price and an expiry date. If the Qantas share price isn’t greater than the strike price the options are worthless, so your ridiculous point about them not being given back is absurd. They have NO VALUE. Buy yourself a clue before you go shooting your mouth off.

    • Confused Fuddy Duddy says:

      08:29am | 01/11/11

      AK. I see that you have a full understanding of how share options work. Could you please explain it to those of us of that lack your superior knowledge of this subject.

    • Joan says:

      07:51am | 01/11/11

      I don’t think journo`s are into explaining real facts and details. They are just into headlines. How about journo`s give the complete picture of Tony Sheldon the guy who started the war on Qantas - his salary , the salary and perks of Qantas workers compared to Virgin Blue workers.  Let`s analyse Tony Sheldon his background and his unreasonable demands that could send Qantas broke.

    • AKoiLus says:

      07:31am | 01/11/11

      Funny how those share options are not given back when those performance hurdles aren’t meet. Talk it up all you want. If it smells like BS it is pal!

    • Seamus says:

      07:04am | 01/11/11

      With the ongoing beligerence of the TWU’s Terry Sheldon in this delicate issue I feel that his union should be deregistred immediately.

    • powermax says:

      10:22am | 01/11/11

      Seamus & Super D, So “Terry” Sheldon is about to be a ‘made’ man? I am not really over ALP internal politics but a quick check showed that Tony Sheldon is running for he position of ALP president. This position is being voted on by all ALP members in a secret ballot. Nowhere could I find a reference to any support for Sheldon by Madam Gillard.

      “Terry” may be a little short of friends in and out of the ALP, I recall some jostling reported between “Terry” and some NUW (?) delegates at an ALP lovefest or conerence thingy.

      Anyways, I’m sure that there are Punchers around here who can set the record straight.

    • Super D says:

      07:15am | 01/11/11

      Alternatively he could be made national President of the ALP….

    • Sony B Goode says:

      06:52am | 01/11/11

      Komrade Gillard and her merry band of Kommunist Klowns with their prosperity destroying agenda has backfired on them. Having been hoist by her own petards while sitting back idly and watching her favourite sport, prosperity and wealth destruction, in this instance, union tormenting of business, she and her band of Klowns are now mad they have been forced into using their own wealth destroying agenda to act against their union paymasters. The Komrade Gillard and Brown bread and circus show will however continue in some shape or other, fear not proleteriat!

    • John Hay says:

      06:51am | 01/11/11

      You wrote an excellent essay and made some good points here, but I think some of them apply to you. For instance, you said, “Chief executive Alan Joyce knows a bit more about running airlines than Tony Sheldon.” This is very true, and I think he also knows more about it than you. Despite your detailed analytic investigation of Joyce’s approach, at the end of the day, he won. He not only won a great wage increase, but went on to win a great battle with a Socialist government and its baying hyena union clans. Before you tinker with Joyce’s methods, perhaps you should toast the man’s success and accept the fact that he knows what he is doing. You are a good writer, but would you have been able to get the ALP vulture off your back the way he did? Sure, you can nit-pick about his methods, but results are what matter here, not more talk.

    • John Jones says:

      06:46am | 01/11/11

      It has been reported that Joyce does not get his payrise unless the company’s profits etc increase substantially over the next 12 months! If this is true it should be reported widely as he actually didnt get a payrise.

    • michael says:

      11:32am | 01/11/11

      to all the people who support cheaper asiaian labour,let me see you take a pay cut or have your job taken away.

    • Daniel says:

      06:38am | 01/11/11

      The dispute is about his salary and how he wants to get rid of Aussie workers and replace them in Asia. Thats the whole issue.

    • T.Woo says:

      06:36pm | 01/11/11

      No Daniel….the dispute is about the bullying, disruptive tactics of the Union who, despite a lot of negotiating are not prepared to give an inch. All the bleating about Salaries etc is just that - bleating…..the whole problem here is that the Unions do not understand that THERE WILL BE NO QANTAS in the future unless the hard decisions are made by their management to become a competitive airline in a very competitive world. Simple really isn’t it ?

    • Aaron says:

      01:06pm | 01/11/11

      Sorry, meant to say that overseas maintenance is in no way inferior to Australian maintenance, not Qantas.

    • Aaron says:

      12:36pm | 01/11/11

      Ros, I actually didn’t say that overseas maintenance was in any way inferior to Qantas. I even said that in my post:

      “Ship it overseas and although the service may be just as good, people will lose confidence”

      I’m going off the sentiment that I’m getting from friends and family, but also from forums such as news.com.au and other sites where the attitudes people have are not so positive towards shipping the maintenance offshore. That’s why I mentioned that it’s the perception that many would have that the aircraft would not be as well maintained should maintenance occur elsewhere, and if the people no longer perceive Qantas as safe then they (Qantas) have lost one of their major selling points.

      But based on what everyone is saying here it looks like my group of friends/family/etc are all doomsdayists.

      Personally I’m fine with flying in a plane that was serviced overseas so long as the company’s quality standards are upheld. That’s why I never flew Tiger.

    • Maree says:

      10:31am | 01/11/11

      Daniel: No !  the dispute is about the viability of the Qantas international service. If the international business is not viable, there will be no Qantas international and NO jobs. This is not Qantas fault, its the overseas budget airline competition that Qantas has to compete against. Qantas has no choice, compete or die. Thats it !

    • Ros says:

      10:01am | 01/11/11

      Aaron, your implication that maintenance in Australia is better than in Singapore, because we have strict training measures and maintenance procedures. First when have you heard about engineering failures or bridges falling down etc. in Singapore? And only one Australian state has state licensing of engineers, elsewhere anybody can call themselves an engineer. I not even sure that they can’t get away with calling themselves professional engineers without the education or accreditation with the professional body.

      Singapore, has a state licensing Board for professional engineers with stringent conditions, and go read their required professional ethics, pages of it.

      Then consider that if you fly overseas there are places where you can’t fly with Qantas or any other airlines that have their maintenance done in Australia or Singapore. Just back from China and one of the internal 3 hour delays was for unexplained mechanical problem, then we took off in the same plane. The second was better, couldn’t take off because destination airport’s air traffic control was out of control. Landing there eventually made a few tense.

      Not many Australians (other than it seems some of our unions) are so parochial these days, or to put it gently, such snobs.

      And if you are desperate for Australian pilots when Qantas goes under because our PM can’t cut it, fly Cathay Pacific. Ansett was a good source of pilots for them. Maybe Qantas will be next given the lack of intelligence displayed by our present government.

    • Harry says:

      09:26am | 01/11/11

      Daniel, Asian people don’t deserve to have jobs when they can do them more efficiently?  Good to see that it’s not only the right wing that can dog-whistle.

    • Joan says:

      08:17am | 01/11/11

      Aaron; Thanks for the laugh, Australians so worried about overseas maintence they can’t buy cheap tickets fast enough- as soon as they appear online they are gone. Australian`s choose to fly cheap , nobody asks Thai airlines, Singapore etc etc. about maintenance in Australia . It`s the price that counts and Qantas overseas haul is not making money against cheap overseas airline serviced overseas. What`s Tony Sheldons salary and perks ? Anyone know? Shledon thinks he knows how to run an airline on the world competeive stage - that`s a laugh and a half.

    • Mayday says:

      08:15am | 01/11/11

      Didn’t read or understand the article?

      “Or should Tony Sheldon from the Transport Workers Union have veto power over everything from how many staff the airline employs, when and where its aircraft hangars are built, who maintains its fleet, to whether it is allowed to expand into Asia?”

      This outmoded attitude is the main crux of the baggage handlers problems, a low skilled easily replaced workforce trying to keep the whole company under control.

      Qantas employs over 34,000 but the baggage handlers want to run the show, a bit like the monkeys trying to run the circus!

    • marley says:

      08:13am | 01/11/11

      @Aaron - the world is a pretty sophisticated place these days.  Australians may have more trust in Australian servicing - but there are an awful lot of people out there that have no qualms at all about flying planes serviced in Singapore or Hong Kong.  Neither Singapore Air nor Cathay Pacific are falling out of the sky because of poor maintenance.  And Qantas will have to go a very long way indeed to match the standards of either in terms of modern planes and customer service.

      Qantas is losing a mozza on its international flights.  Something has to change, because it can’t keep expecting the domestic sector to subsidize its international arm.  That means two options:  either it rejigs its international arm to be more competitive and stem the losses, or it abandons it and becomes a purely domestic airline.

    • Aaron says:

      07:57am | 01/11/11

      Nigel, the problem with overseas maintenance is that the public will trust Australian servicing far more than overseas. Here we have strict training measures and maintenance procedures that ensure high quality service. Ship it overseas and although the service may be just as good, people will loose confidence. That’s a huge problem for an airline who’s only thing going for them at the moment is their reputation for safety.

      I believe the problem is that they’ve got a CEO from a low-cost airline running a premium airline. There are two ways to make a profit. Reduce costs or increase margins. The way Qantas has been going it’s been turned into Jetstar with the Qantas colours. Instead they should be upping the price (people already expect to pay more for qantas) and offer more service. But that’s what you get for sticking a low cost airline boss in charge.

    • NigelC says:

      07:13am | 01/11/11

      No, but nice try. The issue is about growing the airline and dealing with a relatively mature market in Austrialia while there is an opportunity for growth in Asia. That won’t happen using the overpriced labour in Australia and can only occur if the growth element of the airline is based in Asia.

    • J1m_McDonald says:

      06:36am | 01/11/11

      What country allows its flag carrier to offshore its international operations? And if Qantas keeps losing in international operations, what makes Joyce think he can do better in more competitive Singapore? And why is cross -subsidisation not an option in a complex business like Qantas? Last financial year QF made a quarter billion dollar profit despite volcano clouds in Europe [which cost it about $48m], and other natural disasters cost it another $200m+, hits to its bottom line that occurred to all airlines. And then there were serious inflight incidents including the A380 engine episodes that, while covered by Rolls Royce insurance, would have added to bookings issues. So, there is no doubt in my mind that Joyce’s offshoring agenda, which is the overarching cause of its industrial problems, isn’t as sound as the spin suggests. That the Board should offer 71% increase to Joyce in the middle of industrial agreement negotiations is provocative to be sure, but it reflects a hubris that leaves no confidence in Qantas management. Furthermore, overseas expansionism by Australian business has an poor record of success despite examples like News Limited. The Board’s and Alan Joyce’s performance don’t leave me with any confidence that our flagship airline is in good hands. Joyce’s adventurism over the weekend should leave all Australians and Qantas shareholders uneasy about the future of the airline that was built up on taxpayers’ funds before being privatised.

    • EXQF says:

      09:43am | 01/11/11

      I think people also need to remember that when Qantas was operated by the Governmet it never made a profit. It was always running at a loss. It took James Strong to make some hard calls(Cost Savings) back in the early 90s and then helped to privatise the airline. Funnily enough the staff complained about him at the time also, then there was Geoff Dixon, who surprise surprise was hated by the unions for cost cutting…...Sound familiar. Will they ever be happy?
      Yes the airline was built on taxpayer’s funds, and this is where the problem lies. Alot of these employees worked for the airline during that time and still think the cheque book is open, as it was when the government owned it.
      Now the company is answerable to the shareholders and the stock exchange.
      Would the Government bail out the airline if it went broke? I think not. No matter how it would affect the country’s economy. They know how much it cost them when they owned it. Once Bitten!

    • Kevin Ross says:

      09:11am | 01/11/11

      I think you need to look at the return on investment before commenting on profit value. As a percentage of total sales I think you’ll see the figures quoted are not actually that good. What national carrier allows it’s operations to carried off-shore? Can’t give you a figure but it’s common practice. FYI Cathay Pacific’s accouting is carried out in India.

    • Kipling says:

      06:33am | 01/11/11

      @ Super D, given the amount of space taken up mentioning said salary your point is made as it is unmade.

      Regarding the article, the point was made by the correspondent that he is not an airline expert, yet he then goes on to point out the “tactical” blunders the airline has made…On that basis it would seem that the airline are not experts either.

      This is not about how to run an airline, just as it is apparently not about wages. It is about how to treat employees though. Another tactical blunder?

    • julesbomb says:

      06:25am | 01/11/11

      wow maybe you could explain it to Rimmington , Overton and the emo crowd that is the australian media.

    • Dave-o says:

      06:18am | 01/11/11

      Bill Ford also didn’t take a single pay cent in payment until he returned the blue oval to profitability. Ford were the only US based car company to survive the GFC and now are returning about a billion dollars a quarter profit like clockwork.

      Theres something to be said for managers who put their money where their mouth is. Alan Joyce wouldn’t put his money near his mouth for fear of getting stains on it.

    • Dave-o says:

      05:18pm | 01/11/11

      And so did the TWU, but nobody remembers that either.

    • Graham says:

      07:02am | 01/11/11

      You missed the fact that Joyce took a 30% pay cut two years ago and 20% last year.  Yet another example of the problem with this whole story - very few people tell the truth ( and the Prime Minister, Shorten and ‘Albo’ are not even in the ballpark)

    • iansand says:

      06:13am | 01/11/11

      They could have explained the effect of 1 hour strikes called off at the last minute had on operations.  It is a sneaky tactic that causes the disruption but allows the TWU to spout the canard that only 6 hours have been lost to industrial action.

    • Aaron says:

      07:49am | 01/11/11

      That’s actually a good point. Delaying a single aircraft for an hour at melbourne airport bears a fee of approximately $75,000. Now if many planes were grounded for 6 hours then the cost would easily run into the tens of millions.

      Airlines are exceedingly low margin businesses. For a company that pulls in $35bil a year, a measly $500mil profit actually isn’t that much. That’s a profit of about 1.5c for every dollar that they earn. The damage that 6 hours of striking can cause on an airline is quite high.

    • Joan says:

      07:40am | 01/11/11

      Are Australians so dimwitted that they don’t understand the effect of crippling strikes and need to have them explained?  Night after night on TV we have witnessed the effect of union strlkes on Qantas travellers. The tension amongst travellers. Qantas staff and air crew must have put every flight at risk. Nobody can function effectively when affected by unnecessary union strikes- and it`s not as if Qantas workers wages are on the bread line.

    • julesbomb says:

      06:32am | 01/11/11

      it is a trick my ex wife has perfected over the last 12 months….

    • Super D says:

      05:55am | 01/11/11

      Before his payrise Alan Joyce was earning less than the CEO of Virgin Blue - ironically the man that he pipped for the Qantas job.  Now Virgin is a much smaller and less complex business than Qantas and with CEO pay now being set on a relative basis thanks to laws mandating remuneration disclosure this situation was untenable.  Joyce simply had to get a payrise. 

      Now I can argue all day as to why the new process of relative remuneration due to disclosure has led to a rapid rise in CEO pay and while it would continue and extend to other entities - including the public service but that wouldn’t have anything to do with the recalcitrant unions who were damaging Qantas.

      The best way to view it is that anyone who mentions Joyce’s salary is trying to cover for the weakness of their main arguments.

    • Brian Taylor says:

      05:52am | 01/11/11

      David, I fully agree with what you’ve written.
      Any business that does not change the way it operates in this changing world, won’t last all that long and then the jobs the unions are “trying to protect” will no longer be there to protect.
      They’ll just send everything offshore.
      I remember when I was 16 years old in NZ and the company I was working for installed an injection moulding machine that had been send over from Aust. All the products we made were then send back to Aust.
      I was amazed that it was cheaper to send moulds to NZ , make the product and send it back here to Aust.
      That was 43 years ago.
      How many jobs have gone offshore since?
      1000’s I’d say and quite a few Qantas jobs will follow suit

    • Shivo says:

      06:53am | 01/11/11

      Forgot to mention that Alan Joyce had taken pay cuts the previous 2 years.
      Another unfortunate factor is that Tony Sheldon has hate in his blood and blood in his eyes….and is sonn to become the national president of the ALP.

    • mongrel cur says:

      05:49am | 01/11/11

      @ the punch caption writer… major typo, mate. it’s actually spelled R-U-I-N, okay? can you fix it up please? thanks.

    • Dan says:

      09:48am | 02/11/11

      ROFLMFAO - really?

      Did you actually get mongrel cur’s joke or were you laughing at your hysterically funny editorial comments?

    • Zeus says:

      11:17am | 01/11/11

      It’s is normally capitalised after a full stop - ROFLMFAO !!!!!

    • Against the Man says:

      05:49am | 01/11/11

      Isn’t Tony Sheldon an ALP card carrying goon? So he is the same stock as Gillard. No wonder the fake PM ignored and lied about the issue. She had her best (non hair dressing) man on the job.

    • Rock and Hard Place says:

      03:23pm | 02/11/11

      PsychoHyena - re your comment “had Joyce had agreed to the pay-rise for the workers that would have resulted in a similar cost. $108m ....” is just economically stupid - how on earth could anyone outside the Qantas Board possibly make a stab in the dark and actually quantify and estimate what a $1 per hour pay rise per person would mean to Qantas’ bottom line without having access to work agreements, average hours worked, amount of overtime worked, added cost of percentage based on costs including super, holidays, sick days and workers comp etc.  Your whole argument is invalid from the word go because you have no valid basis.

      In addition to that, even if your hypothesised figures were remotely valid, if Qantas agreed to the pay rise it would not just cost them this year - it would be ongoing year after year.  Your argument just doesn’t make sense.

      In addition to that, as mentioned elsewhere, it isn’t all about the pay rise anyway - it is the unions demanding guarantees that jobs will not be lost overseas when economically speaking Qantas can’t guarantee that and remain a viable competitive profit making entity. There is no room for compromise on that issue - Qantas cannot remain viable with that promise in place, so the unions making demands for guarantees that will eventually put the airline out of business is ridiculous.

    • Christian Real says:

      03:04pm | 02/11/11

      Against the man says:
      “No wonder CT is able to get away with his many crimes”
      CT has not been found guilty of anything underhanded, and as your comment could be seen as defamatory and could be seen as libel now that it is printed ,perhaps you should consider retracting your comment.

    • Against the Man says:

      01:24pm | 01/11/11

      Gillard caught out covering up for her union buddies, no wonder CT is able to get away with his many crimes.

      This is getting so much more fun. Gillard a multiple caught out liar and cover up artist for the unions. Worst fake PM ever wink

    • Bob Wilson says:

      12:01pm | 01/11/11

      The FWA is mainly a board of ex union bosses so it would not have much chance of bagging the unions for their constant industrial actions. It is a crook set up the unions represent only a small section of the Australian workforce, mainly public service and big private enterprises. They don’t worry about anyone else because they are wanted .

    • marley says:

      11:48am | 01/11/11

      @psychohyena - it wasn’t just about the pay rises.  If it had been, it would all be settled by now.  It was about a whole host of other things, including job security, offshore operations, and modernizing work practices.  And of course about setting up a non-Qantas operation offshore. 

      As for having nothing to show for it, well, actually, Joyce has what he asked for from Fair Works - an end to industrial action;  a negotiating period; and then the imposition of arbitration.  The union didn’t want that last item at all.  So, on the tactical front, I’d say Joyce actually won, since he got what he wanted.

    • Cyn says:

      09:50am | 01/11/11

      He’s not only an ALP card carrying good - he’s running for President of the ALP.  No wonder the “PM” is now blaming Qantas. She couldn’t give her Union buddies what they wanted, but she’ll make them feel better by pretending that Qantas was at fault.

    • Brett says:

      09:23am | 01/11/11

      @Frank - Joyce had to pull the stunt in order to protect the company going forward from rolling strikes, especially approaching Christmas and summer. It would have cost more, you are right, but it was the right strategic move in the long run.

    • PsychoHyena says:

      08:58am | 01/11/11

      @marley, and yet if Joyce had agreed to the pay-rise for the workers that would have resulted in a similar cost. $108m is equal to the $1/hr payrise for 12, 320 workers, in one year (this of course is only the increase and does not include their current $20/hr).

      I’m going to take a stab in the dark and assume that this is approximately the number of people that Qantas hires in the affected roles, it may be more or less. Think about it, Joyce has cost the company $108m by not responding to the strike, except by shutting down the airline, and nothing to show for it, negotiations still have to occur, if the workers receive their pay increase then that will be another $108m spent for the year. The problem is neither side is showing any compromise. Neither side is saying “Okay we’ll give you this if you put this demand aside.”

      I’m sorry but there are many people that would make a better CEO than Alan Joyce.

    • Charlie says:

      08:54am | 01/11/11

      Chief spin doctor at Qantas is a former Joe Hockey hack- but then that doesnt matter because surely she wouldnt be carrying the liberal party banner like the other side do, completely different not a shred of evidence to suggest there might be some sort of conspiracy…ofcourse thos eunions thugs and their labor mates different story completely.

    • marley says:

      08:08am | 01/11/11

      @Frank - the union actions had cost the airline $70 million, with no end in sight.  Not sure what the lockout cost, but it did put an end to the bleeding.  That, of course, was the intention.

    • Frank says:

      07:27am | 01/11/11

      That doesn’t matter, the issue is Joyce and his knee-jerk reaction to the Unions, the FWA report states that the previous Union action was not enough to determine that the airline (and also the Australian Economy) was so significantly damaged that he needed to ground the enitre fleet, essentailly making the issue worse, I would think the costs of grounding the fleet and getting it back in the aire would cost more than the Union’s actions….The QANTAS board is a bunch of ‘yes’ men and as such gave Joyce the power to irrepairably damage the QANTAS brand….I’d love to be Branson and Borghetti over a Virgin now…they are laughing their asses off at the shambles that has become the once great QANTAS.

    • Joan says:

      07:17am | 01/11/11

      He is the guy Gillard is grooming as next national president of ALP- she has no intention of cutting his rise short.

    • ZSRenn says:

      05:43am | 01/11/11

      “I didn’t use the provisions in the act, which I wrote, because I don’t trust the legislation!” Julia Gillard 31/10/11! LOL! What a complete failure as a minister and as a PM. 

      Come on Penbo! Stop trying to blame someone else.

      There is only one person that is to blame and that is Julia Gillard

      Joyce had to fix the problem because she did not have the guts to do so.

      He is Australias hero!

      End of Story!

    • Chris L says:

      02:30pm | 02/11/11

      @Dovif -  3 whole hours with which to decide and act on an industrial dispute eh? If Joyce had requested assistance why didn’t he wait for it?

      Besides that, how can industrial action by a company against itself be “All Gillard’s fault”?!

    • dovif says:

      06:31pm | 01/11/11

      Maslowlyn

      Since union won, why is the unions thinking of appealing the decision adn Qantas is very happy that there won’t be any more stoppage?

      Chris L

      Qantas told Gillard and 3 other minister at 2pm on Saturday, asking the government to step in, so that they do not have to shut down the airline, they gave the government enough notice, so that Gillard had a conference call with Albanese, Bowen etc,

      Gillard came to a conclusion to do nothing and hurt our tourism industry and make sure Australians cannot fly homw. Just so she does not upset her union mates. It was completely Gillard’s fault

    • St. Michael says:

      03:30pm | 01/11/11

      @ Marilyn:

      “Joyce was the one who called an illegal wild cat strike, the unions he punished were not doing anything at all.”

      Then it’s rather funny that FWA ordered all industrial action to cease, whether from the unions or Qantas.  If the unions were not doing anything at all, that is.

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      03:20pm | 01/11/11

      The problem with you imbeciles is that Fair Work found AGAINST JOYCE.

      Joyce was the one who called an illegal wild cat strike, the unions he punished were not doing anything at all.

      The problem with uniform group think with Newsltd. is that they are almost always wrong.

      Joyce is trying to sack 1,000 workers so he can employ workers on 25% of the salary to fly twice as long and put everyone at risk.

      Are you people lazy or just stupid.

    • Chris L says:

      02:55pm | 01/11/11

      @LDLS - whereas I’m sure you and the others cheering on Joyce’s “spur of the moment” decision to ground the fleet don’t have any political leanings and are as fair and balanced as Fox News.

      Joyce never requested government intervention and I would think that those of the right wing would be horrified if they had interfered uninvited in how the business was being run. You either don’t know what you’re asking for or you don’t care, you’ll deride the government either way.

    • Kai says:

      01:04pm | 01/11/11

      Have to agree that if it is legitimate for a union to strike then it is legitimate for an employer to lock out. What QANTAS did is a reasonable and legal response to any strike action. What the union did was stop negotiating and start bullying. It blew up in their faces but Gillard stands by the union action as ‘right’ and the management action as ‘wrong’. They were the same; either both are right or both are wrong.

    • LDLS says:

      01:01pm | 01/11/11

      @ old fart…it really is a shame you never learned to hold it in. 
      You have a single POV and it is solely one that supports all unions and Labor.  Your post is so full of holes and spin it had to have come straight from the union media sheet of the day.

      Get a clue.  The architect of tthe Fair Work does not even have enough faith in her own Act that she bows away like a beaten dog. But hey you said it.  It’s Julia’s fault but you keep licking her boots.  You’re so rusted on you can’t even see a union intent on bringing a company to its knees whatever it takes.

      Joyce may not be an angel but he did a lot better than your mates have in this instance.  He may have cooked 68,000 in one fell swoop but your guys were going to screw many thousands more over time not including those they stitched up before the shutdown.

      But you keep the faith old guy.  Old dogs and new tricks and all.

    • Rock and Hard Place says:

      11:06am | 01/11/11

      Hey Old Fart

      Re your comment   “none of these actions were what one would call debilitating to the company.” I’m not sure if you were referring to just the baggage handlers or the engineers as well, but I can tell you that just last week, before Joyce’s weekend action, I booked flights to Adelaide for my mother with the specific request to avoid Qantas as the unions actions were making them unreliable.  I’n sure that she was not the only one choosing other airlines and I am just as sure that the unions actions were already very debilitating to the brand and Joyce chose the lock out as a way of calling a halt to the crap. Maybe he could have done it differently to lessen the impact on travellers - but that would be about as effective as calling a strike or a stop work meeting when no-one was using your service.

    • Sam says:

      11:05am | 01/11/11

      I’m sorry, I must have missed the memo that said that the Government is responsible for the goings-on of private companies. Silly me.

    • dovif says:

      10:53am | 01/11/11

      Old Fart

      When Qantas planned to lock out the workers, which would cause economic damages to Australia, at that point Gillard should have acted to ensure the kaos does not happen. At that point Gillard sat on her hands and decided to do nothing, which was clearly Gillard’s fault

      It also also Gillard who wrote the legislation, which means that Unions can run riot, without anyone being able to do anything. As Anna Bligh, an ALP premier, said yesterday, Gillard’s rewrite of the law should be looked into, it give the Union too much power.

      So it was Gillard’s fault on both occassion

    • C1 says:

      10:06am | 01/11/11

      @ Alf,
      I take your point regarding bottom feeders. Do you think she is dusting off her resume and making some calls to her old employer Slater and Gordon?
      She might be facing a career change soon.

    • old fart says:

      09:42am | 01/11/11

      @dovif read FWA’s ruling.  Para 10 nothing could be done until they locked out the workers Oh yeah, it was good to see you were sorry about the 3 soldiers as well. I dont give a flying kangaroo about Joyce et al. I just think it was dreadful that the deaths in afghanistan were reduced to mere space fillers in news broadcasts, but then the same thing happened in Vietnam

    • Drafnel says:

      09:31am | 01/11/11

      @old fart: Qantas did give 72 hours’ notice of the lockout. The lockout was scheduled to start on Monday evening. It never actually happened, due to the Fair Work ruling.

      So technically, Qantas has not taken any industrial action whatsoever.

    • Alf says:

      08:45am | 01/11/11

      @C1. The reality is that IR laywers (aka, bottom-feeders) make their money from ongoing industrial disputes. If everything was rosy on the IR front, they wouldn’t make a quid.

    • dovif says:

      08:21am | 01/11/11

      Old Fart

      The airline had kept the government abreast of the situation and had 3 meetings last week, they told the goernment they had lost $68 million

      The Air Safety board told them they were making the airline unsafe

      And Gillard’s gov did nothing, it was Gillard’s fault

    • old fart says:

      06:32am | 01/11/11

      I just passed wind without meaning to, it must be Julia’s fault.  i got up at 4.50 am to go to work it must be Julia’s fault.  Joyce is no hero.  there is a clause sadly lacking in this legislation and that is one which would give equality. an ammendment must be passed placing a duty on ALL parties to give 72 hours notice before any industrial action.  Now it is clear that neither the engineers nor the pilots were after a pay rise, yes they were after undertakings from the company.  the only group after a payrise were baggage handlers wh had taken 6 hours protected action over the preceding month. none of these actions were what one would call debilitating to the company.
      It is becoming evident, that Mr Joyce made plans prior to the AGM had deployed australian based managers overseas to counsel staff and informed Jetstar of his intentions. So it was hardly an off the cuff decision as he claims. Indeed, if it was off the cuff it would be more concerning.
      So yes Mr Joyce knows how to run an airline, but it appears to me that he does have difficulty in meeting and or interacting with people and apparently does not show much concern as to their feelings, yes he apologised, but rather belatedly.
      He managed to get on the wrong side of his people, his customers and more importantly any potential customers.

      THE SADDEST ASPECT of this debacle was that three men gave their lives in the service of their country and it hardly rated a mention.  Families lost brothers, fathers, husbands and children and that sad news played second fiddle to a man who on the surface appeared to have had an attack of the “sookie la la’s” and took his bat and ball home

    • C1 says:

      06:26am | 01/11/11

      What cracks me up about this is that she was an Industrial Relations Lawyer. With those types of qualifications, you would like to think she would have done a good job of it.
      I suppose in her defence when you are obliged by your Unions backers to ensure certain things are included post work choices, the chances of a balanced and effective legislations are limited.

    • Mahhrat says:

      05:43am | 01/11/11

      Loyalty is dead.  Long live the $.

    • chungo mung says:

      03:38pm | 01/11/11

      -No, it’s driven by the massive and ongoing campaign encouraging people to buy things they don’t need, can’t afford and shouldn’t want.-

      Bingo

      It is not so much a wonder that all around the world people that are confused, pissed off, disgruntled and demanding varying degrees of change - whilst so many of the ‘haves’ despise them with arrogance and reject all their notions en masse because they feel that the status quo suits them fine.

      Loyalty to each other, loyalty to ideas or objective ethics, loyalty to anything?
      Loyalty to me and myself and I.

    • LDLS says:

      12:49pm | 01/11/11

      @Heather G

      The unions will be doing that next year when their contracts come up with Virgin - courtesy of Tony Sheldon’s own mouth

    • Mahhrat says:

      10:05am | 01/11/11

      @Daniel:  No, it’s driven by the massive and ongoing campaign encouraging people to buy things they don’t need, can’t afford and shouldn’t want.

      We’re told we should have everything, when the truth is we can’t afford everything.

      QANTAS are just as guilty of contributing to that problem as any business you’d care to name.

      You can’t blame individuals - it’s saying that every person has the ability to resist the deep psychological manipulation every second of every day.  Nobody can do that.

    • Cyn says:

      09:47am | 01/11/11

      Joyce works for Qantas. It’s his JOB to pursue $$.

    • HeatherG says:

      08:41am | 01/11/11

      If it was just about the $$, the Unions would be pressuring Virgin instead. Their staff get paid less across the board than Qantas’ do.

    • I hate pies says:

      08:40am | 01/11/11

      Certainly in the minds of the unionists. They’re content to bring QANTAS down in pursuit of winning - is that loyal? I guess their only loyalty is to their hip pockets and the union, so I already know the answer to that question.
      I’ve never understood the us and them mentality. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

    • Daniel says:

      08:12am | 01/11/11

      ... and it is all driven by the travelling publics’ pursuit of the cheapest flights.

    • marley says:

      08:06am | 01/11/11

      @Mahrat - I’m with you on that.  I just don’t know how you make unions and private enterprise see beyond their own interests to the genuine greater good.  In this dispute, both are claiming the higher ground - the unions say they’re protecting Aussie jobs and safety standards;  Qantas says it’s protecting those same jobs (or most of them) by ensuring the survival of the airline.  In the meantime, the passengers and the larger tourist industry suffer.

    • Phil says:

      08:01am | 01/11/11

      Mahhrat. Just a couple of simple questions. How many times in say the last 3 years have you flown Qantas against a lower price alternative? Would you pay $ 200 a flight more for the same thing?

      Do you shop at Aldi owned untimately by the Germans or Woolworths owned by many but a lot of Australians including their superfunds? I dont I hate Woolworths.

      Do you buy a holden or some cheaper imported car?

      I am not judging you or anyone else by these questions, its just that many I know at Qantas get paid pretty well, have incredible flexibility and get more days off than I do or could. I generally fly Qantas if they go to the destination in Australia I want to go, but mostly now only have low cost alternatives to destinations I go. I fly V to America as they have the best excess baggage rates, even though the fare this year was dearer than Qantas, and I flew Singapore to Europe as the schedule and direct flights are preferred.

      I am more likely to fly Qantas from now on as I appreciate Joyce standing up to the unions and attempting to keep the company afloat when many airlines throughout the world are struggling to cope.

    • Aaron says:

      07:39am | 01/11/11

      Loyalty will always have its limits. Loyalty must first be earned. It then needs to be maintained.

    • Mahhrat says:

      07:22am | 01/11/11

      I was talking about society in general.  The unions are happy to cause disruption in pursuit of $$; Joyce is happy to cause disruption in pursuit of $$.

      There are better ways of doing things.

    • marley says:

      06:16am | 01/11/11

      Are you talking about Joyce, or about Sheldon?  Seems to me it applies both ways.

    • GC says:

      05:15am | 01/11/11

      Agreed Penbo. The first half of the article is exactly what I’ve been trying to explain to my illogical, school teacher, labor voting, union cheering, anti-business mother in law who staying with us at the moment. I’m going to show her this article, she still won’t understand though

    • DMc says:

      04:40pm | 02/11/11

      john, you lost me at “your all wrong.”

    • Ford Prefect says:

      03:37pm | 02/11/11

      Quite an undergraduate piece itself

    • Bruce says:

      11:50am | 02/11/11

      BobM: The Qantas Sales ACT 1992 has been an issue for Qantas in terms of its future corporate growth stategy. Nick Xenophon would like some explaination as to Qantas business plans and expansion. However, Qantas’s to answer Xenophon may come down its approach to aportioning costs between business units and that it is not much different to most other large corporate multi-company institutions who share common utilities and have an aggressive future growth stategy. Much of the current stucture of Qantas will come down to its ‘legal’ creative accounting for tax purposes with the concept of isoliting costings that are shared between internal group entities.

    • James Hunter says:

      10:29pm | 01/11/11

      @realist, I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say. Not even sure if you know . However.Consider that Carl Marx said “From each according to his capacity and to each according to his need”. and the bible in common with most of the great religions quotesd “The Golden Rule”  saying “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
      So I do not think that socialism is thew root cause of problems any more or less then religions are. In all these cases it is the petty Bigots, religious zelots dictators of any colour you like, or dislike. it is always the people not the good concepts they have abused and so it is.
      I hope you can understand me.

    • n_dude says:

      09:50pm | 01/11/11

      Joyce pay half his salary in tax? Get outta here, he is way too smart for that. I’d say more like 1% if he is worth any of his $5mil salary!

    • Aussie Ged says:

      09:18pm | 01/11/11

      What amazes me is the man’s gall. Firstly securing a $5 million pay rise, then shutting down the flights and THEN saying “it should not suprise anyone the flights were cancelled”. Tell that to the people who missed weddings, funerals, medical procedures, links to other flights. If he was serious why not give 1-2 weeks warning? - because that wouldn’t allow management to hold the nation to ransom crush the unions wanting to keep jobs in Aust.

    • Peter says:

      03:49pm | 01/11/11

      You guys don’t get it.  Joyce is going to pass on all the savings to us, the consumer, by way of cheaper international fares.  So what if we lose some jobs along the way.  For every job lost we get at least $1 off a trip to America.  You’ll see.  Joyce is doing this for us.  I love that guy.

    • Kleia says:

      03:38pm | 01/11/11

      BelleT, I absolutely agree with everything you’ve said, and furthermore, I think you answered your own question when you said:

      “I thought media like News.com.au and the Herald Sun were supposed to be the voice of the common people, not just a propaganda machine which manipulates the minds of the less educated? ”

    • I, Claudia says:

      03:33pm | 01/11/11

      Tammy - this dispute had nothing to do with salary until the public jumped into it.

    • BelleT says:

      03:14pm | 01/11/11

      You can show her this article but as it was published by News.com.au, it has as much journalistic integrity as its author; none, to be more specific.

      Whoever’s side you agree with, grounding all QANTAS flights had the purpose of insighting anger that QANTAS management would have you think are the Unions’ fault. Do you even know what the pro Union’s industrial dispute was motivated by? It sure seems like you don’t.

      But unfortunately for the rest of Australia who are well informed, and don’t just get their info from snappy headlines off News.com.au, we have to put up with this misinformation in the mean time.

      I thought media like News.com.au and the Herald Sun were supposed to be the voice of the common people, not just a propaganda machine which manipulates the minds of the less educated?

    • Esteban says:

      03:09pm | 01/11/11

      John 3.59pm. You were working for Compass when they went broke and Ansett when they went broke. Sounds like Qantas will be fine as long as you are not working for them.

      How did you go picking a winner in the cup?

    • john says:

      02:59pm | 01/11/11

      Your all wrong, its about greed from all parties tearing each other and the airline apart for the $$ grab and also trying to sustain the international business, and maintain profits for shareholders by any means possible.

      How do I know, I worked for compass when executives raped the airline of its cash, and ansett when it was drained from numerous vampires of its wealth & assets by everyone, pure greed.

      The question is will Qantas survive?, the answer is no, not at this rate, the relationship is toxic from the CEO down. Its not safe to operate an airline with this environment.

    • Kate says:

      01:40pm | 01/11/11

      Gosh, hope GC’s mother in law doesn’t also read the comments.

    • GK says:

      01:40pm | 01/11/11

      You can add that the Qantas pilots actually earn more per hour of work than Joyce.

    • andye says:

      01:24pm | 01/11/11

      @Realist - “Please remember that half of Joyce’s salary is paid in Tax. So he is most likely paying all the dole payments for ALL the “Occupy” mob by himself.”

      Half? Even if he paid the full amount it isn’t half, but I doubt very much that he is paying anything like that.

    • neo says:

      01:16pm | 01/11/11

      Nah, it’s not, but it’s good timing to revise the bonus scheme up isn’t it?

    • joy says:

      01:16pm | 01/11/11

      People like you Really make me sick!!.Australian want the jobs kept here in this country where qantas can maintain the planes to the best standards in the world. If jobs go overseas that’s the end for qantas.

    • Ben says:

      12:29pm | 01/11/11

      i think you’re oversimplifying by calling anything here anti-business. if your employer announced that he was going to fire you not because you’d worked badly but because he was going to give your job to someone in another country, i’m sure you’d be ‘anti-business’ too.
      business is great, i’m all for profits, but profit should come as a reward for better services, not squeezing your employees.

    • Austin 3:16 says:

      12:15pm | 01/11/11

      In a completely rational society, the best of us would be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something else.
      Lee Iacocca

    • Penster says:

      11:01am | 01/11/11

      Doesn’t agree with you AND school teacher? What a despicable human being, she should be ashamed of herself.

    • Qantas was right says:

      09:19am | 01/11/11

      Agree 100% that it is not about Joyce’s salary. I also agree that the public were blindsided and there will be a price to pay for that in the medium and longer term.

      However something had to be done about the actions of particularly the engineers and the TWU’s industrial action. One point you missed however is that since the Fairwork Aust decision to terminate the action Tony Sheldon has done wonders to justify Qantas’ decision and actions in the public arena.

      His media interviews have shown him to be a complete throwback to the worst union leaders of the ‘80s. His language, his demeanour, his body language and the overall tenor of his interviews where he was trying to claim some sort of victory over this ‘disgusting’ company worked a treat for Qantas and gave a real insight into why they were forced into the action that they took.

      While claiming some sort of victory Sheldon is now contemplating some sort of appeal so that companies can’t exercise their legal rights under the Fair Work Act (as bad a piece of legislation that it may be) in the future. As much as this dispute has been about the right of a company to run its own business it has also been about the desperate bid for the irrelevant and shrinking unions to try and reinvigorate themselves under the left wing legislation that Gillard gave them in 2007.

      it should be noted that Sheldon is likely to become the new ALP President in the coming weeks. Between him and the incompetent Gillard who can’t even answer the phone without making a mistake - look what this country has in store for it in the next couple of years.

    • Tammy says:

      08:33am | 01/11/11

      It shouldn’t be about Joyce’s salary - only those that think like the union thugs would use the salary as an excuse. Labor is in power so the union thugs have come to town. Along with their arrival comes the Laborites drunk with that false power. I am sick of this govt putting the blame on Tony Abbott and everyone else but themselves for the waste of money because of their incompetency to govern.

    • Realist says:

      08:23am | 01/11/11

      Please remember that half of Joyce’s salary is paid in Tax. So he is most likely paying all the dole payments for ALL the “Occupy” mob by himself.

      Gaddafi, like all great Socialists( Socialist Republic of Libya), murdered hundreds of thousands of people when he turned to Fascism after brain dead people believed the “Socialist Dream”

      Socialist Fascism: Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao etc etc etc.
      The Worlds greatest population controller, thru genocide.

    • birdie says:

      07:51am | 01/11/11

      ha ha

    • Bruce says:

      07:49am | 01/11/11

      Those that critisize Joyce’s salary obviously have no knowledge of how large businesses operate, or understand professional salary remuneration. Also, if the unions want to run an international airline, maybe the unions should raise enough capital buy a large number of shares in Qantas, and obtain a seat on the board. Then they could put forward THEIR recommendations as to how they think Qantas should be run. Bet you the unions would change their thoughts as to their current ideas !

    • Tell It Like It Is says:

      07:23am | 01/11/11

      Gosh it is one thing to have a mother-in-law who is diametrically opposed to your politics. Quite another thing to have her in-house. Poor dude. (BTW I am a female.)

    • julesbomb says:

      06:28am | 01/11/11

      get her a Gaddafi style tent and enjoy the serenity

 

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