Here’s a simple question in a democracy – if over 80 percent of the electorate support, through a formal vote, candidates who clearly run on a specific policy, what should the new Government’s position be on that policy?

Bloody Greenies, they're cloning them now

Well according to the Greens – and their cheerleaders such as Deborah Cameron on the ABC – you should first decide whether those candidates were duped by focus groups. When you decide they were – it’s fairly obvious really – you then tell the voters what they really wanted, what deep in their hearts they should believe.

Just on the primary vote, let alone the two-party preferred results, an overwhelming majority of citizens supported candidates committed to off-shore processing of asylum claims.

On ABC 702 Thursday morning, Cameron, calling for bipartisan support of the Greens position, suggested that voters had all been swayed by the politics of fear. The possibility that off-shore processing might by an unpleasant but effective way of reversing the privatisation to criminal traffickers of refugee processing is not one she or her heroes of the ‘new’ politics, the Greens and Independents, will countenance.  It’s one thing, however, to disagree on the substance of policy – it’s another to claim as a new virtue an unwillingness to respect the majority vote on such matters.

The problem with the new politics Cameron and others laud, is that the electorate gets policy and resource allocations based not on what was presented to them as platforms at the election, but what comes from post-election deal making.

Of course the Greens and Independents claim their new politics is all about dialogue and transparency. The use of the term ‘transparency’ becomes almost Orwellian at this point. Consider, for example, that while the policies and spending commitments of the major parties were publicly tested before the election, as part of the new politics the policy and spending positions of the Independents are announced after the deal is done and without public scrutiny.

Likewise, the claim that cloaks the Greens and the Independents in apparent moral legitimacy, that citizens are fed-up with parties not willing to listen to the electorate, is forgotten when it comes to forcing on the electorate a policy – rejection of off-shore processing – that was clearly repudiated at an election only completed within the last week!

In a democracy, a minority must work to persuade the majority. They must not seek to manipulate legislative processes lest they provoke an even more intolerant position from the majority.

In this policy matter, those opposed to off-shore processing should develop the following case: the number of refugees the communities across the country can prudently receive, the processing system to deliver that intake in an orderly and responsible way, and the sanction system that will manage illegal trafficking and unauthorised entry over and above that level.

It’s not clear to me that after persuading their fellow citizens that we should, say, double or triple or quadruple our intake, those in favour of greater intakes will end up avoiding the need for a sanction system, and the need for a strategy for people trafficking, including detention centres and ‘market frustration’ measures.

But we are not at the point of testing whether they can cope with this inevitable ‘dirty hands’ dilemma. We are at the point where they have simply failed to carry their fellow citizens in any significant numbers and are attempting to by-pass the obligation to persuade that democracy imposes.

More worryingly, we are at a crucial point where the minority despairs of the majority, seeks to take advantage of a minority government to ignore that majority, and tells the majority to catch up or suck it up. The question is – on how many policy areas in the next term of government will this new politics disregard the hard work and obligations of real world democracy.

189 comments

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    • remlap says:

      08:23am | 10/09/10

      You are making the election appear to be about a single issue election, when really the asylum seekers issue was just one plank in the policies of the major parties campaign platforms. It certainly lost favour through the course of the campaign and slipped off the radar. The public were sick to death of hearing about it. Campaigning on the issue was shown to be a vote loser. It was a seriously wobbly plank and neither party wanted to slip off and fall in to the abyss, so they just stopped standing on it.

    • Wayne Fehlhaber says:

      09:12am | 10/09/10

      remlap :  You are way off the mark to suggest that the issue of assylum seekers was off the radar during the campaign. This issue was , in fact , one of the major election issues . Australians have had a gutfull of scumbag smugglers getting rich on peoples misery and they want the matter to be strictly monitored , strictly controlled and strict measures in place to deter boats arriving on our shores in the first place.
      To claim the issue was a vote loser is ludicrous . Why do you think the Coalition won a swag of seats from Labor . ?  Their policy on assylum seekers has the strength to at least slow the wave of boat people to manageable numbers and that fact was proven by the Howard govt.‘s firm policy on the issue.
      Measures forced by Green blackmail on a minority government , made up of questionable representation , are a long way from what is viewed as acceptable democratic process by the Australian electorate.

    • Trevor says:

      09:39am | 10/09/10

      Agreed.  This article is effectively arguing that there is a ‘mandate’ for offshore processing.

      I’m sick of hearing about mandates.  If you want mandates for policies, then bring on a referendum for each and every policy so that I can vote for a policy rather than for a candidate who represents a whole range of policies, some of which I agree with and some of which I don’t.

    • Heath Karl says:

      11:05am | 10/09/10

      I notice the editorial in the Australian proudly proclaims its desire to “destroy the Greens”, and here on the punch, the lead article warns of the innate danger of supporting the Greens. I am very impressed at News Media’s consistency. This is starting to get a whiff of propaganda to it, not least because your attack in this instance is written by none other than political insider, PCYC CEO.

    • Gregg says:

      11:17am | 10/09/10

      And are you affiliated with the Greens remlap?
      Certainly there were more issues in the election though this the first one where Bob Brown the new government CEO has ordained that Timor is off the radar.
      Well stated Wayne
      @Trevor
      The coalition had as policy re-instating TPVs and re-opening Nauru and why you may well ask!
      Christmas Island is chockers and various locations on the mainland are likewise, problems in Darwin just last week if you hadn’t noticed.
      Julia with a Metooism had Timor on the radar and so with both major parties having offshore processing as policy, it already occurring anyway at Christmas Island, how is it you can see democracy in the Greens calling the tune of Julia now?

      And say for instance you have a reasonably small number of say 200-500 people over and above the regular refugees of 120/week that absorbing into the community gets planned for by DIAC, where are you going to put that 200 -300 Trevor and then the same number in another month or so, maybe another 1000 in three months!

      Are you going to find a few more disued mining camps or lease out some more motels?

    • Peter says:

      11:55am | 10/09/10

      Trevor, the article didn’t mention the word “mandate” . You did. Then you said you’re sick of hearing it. The remedy seems obvious. I sympathize with your sentiment about referendums. Unfortunately they are vulnerable to manipulation and if the majority gets it wrong, it’s pretty hard to hold the majority accountable.

    • John says:

      12:07pm | 10/09/10

      Agree with remlap and trevor, the asylum seeker issue was a minor one for most Australians, had little to do with the ALP losing seats compared with other issues, so I just don’t think Chris’s argument stacks up, let alone justifies a policy ‘mandate’.  A direct referendum on a policy/issue can more accurately tell us exactly what the people prefer.  And we need to bear in mind that a majority vote does not mean the best policy, unless you can ensure that all who voted are knowledgeable on the issue (or perhaps we rely on what people like Bob Katter think..).  We live with democracy, its good aspects and pitfalls.  It may indeed be possible for the Greens to work with other parties to help develop a better all-round policy than what we have now, one that can be canvassed with the electorate and adjusted if necessary.  Good ideas don’t always come from the majority or established forces, they often arise from individuals and dedicated interests Chris, a point you seem to overlook in your assessment.

    • Bruce says:

      04:46pm | 10/09/10

      remlap, disagree: The asylum seeker issue was at the front of the election campaign along with the past incompetence of the then labor government. However, I note that there were a number of arrivals during the election campaign and they were conveniently ignored by much of the media, not my observation, but those of radio and nespaper media that were prepared to report it in the middle pages of the newspaper. I wonder why that was ?? I guess like may other issues I could mention, that much of the media decided not to report issues that appeared to damage the then labor government.

    • acotrel says:

      07:33am | 11/09/10

      Perhaps the Coalition would have done better, slagging off at the asylum seekers, if they’d dressed Scott Morrison in a black uniform?

    • John says:

      11:57pm | 13/09/10

      There is no majority! Even if the idependents supported Tony Abbott all he could have done was to form a minority government.
      Labor won 72 seats while the Liberals won 60 seats, the Nationals won 12 seats, Independents won 5 seats and the Greens won 1 seat.
      On that basis Labor has the majority. However, to form government you need 76 seats which they got with the support of 3 Independents and 1 Green.
      Labor was also committed to off-shore processing for asylum seekers before the election and during the campaign so, the argument that on the primary vote and/or two-party preferred results ‘the majority of citizens supported candidates committed to off-shore processing’ doesn’t make any sense?

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      08:28am | 10/09/10

      This doesn’t have to be legislated. It just has to be done.

      The UNHCR can run the processing centre in East Timor. This is an election commitment and she must not be allowed to weasel her way out of it.

    • jane says:

      10:12am | 10/09/10

      Well, yes, it does rather have to be legislated. The PM can’t just press a button and make things happen. And I think the East Timorese have a few things to say on the subject of a processing centre on their land.

    • Brian B says:

      10:21am | 10/09/10

      Hey Ton - last I heard the good citizens of East Timor don’t want the refugee processing centre in their country. Another Labor fail.

    • Ryan says:

      12:00pm | 10/09/10

      @Tony, this was never intended to be delivered on and it will not be delivered, that you can bet on!

    • Maggie says:

      06:26pm | 12/09/10

      I do not see why Nauru cannot be used . It is paid for, built and the government is willing , this can only mean that Gillard/Labor/Greens/Independents are no fairdinkum. there will be no offshore procesing in the tem of this non government.

    • Louisa says:

      07:38pm | 12/09/10

      Maggie

      Nauru will probably be used by old maid Gillard -  she just hates the thought that Liberal ideas are better than Labors. Always have been and always will be and that is why they steal them

    • Steve says:

      08:30am | 10/09/10

      The Bob Brown attitude of moral superiority is nauseating in the extreme.  He likes to give the impression of being a gentle soul enjoying the Tasmanaian wilderness with his same sex partner whilst attired in his conservative clothing.  His policies are certainly not of a gentle nature and if even only half of them were to be adopted, the economy would be decimated, unemployment would rapidly jump into double figures and those that were able to gain employment would be working longer for less money and paying more in tax.  The lax drug policy at least would enable you to pretend it was all just a bad dream and that the shared PrimeMinistership of Windsor & Oakeshott was going to ensure there is going to be sunshine as we’re moving forward;o)

    • T.Chong says:

      08:53am | 10/09/10

      Steve, you have an issue with Bob Browns “same sex partner” ? What has the partners gender got to do with this?

    • Tracker says:

      09:03am | 10/09/10

      Well said Steve, i could never mention those three a$$holes without swearing.

    • howy says:

      09:32am | 10/09/10

      Obviously T.Chong, an unmarried homosexual atheist is going to view the World differently to the 98% of people who are into that kind of thing.

    • Damocles says:

      09:49am | 10/09/10

      Hey Chong, what are you, the thought police? Self appointed, self seeking, ever vigilant fighter of all things “politically incorrect”? What’s wrong with stating the bleeding obvious? Bob Brown is gay and he should be proud, so saying he has a same sex partner should be a non issue. I’m a hetrosexual. I have an opposite sex partner. Oh shock! Oh horror! What’ has my partner’s gender got to do with it? Go fight another cause elsewhere! Aside from all that, and Brown’s sexual preferences, he is a dangerous man with his head in the clouds. He should get back down to earth and go and talk to “the people”. It’s what “the people” want, not what Bob Brown wants!!

    • Old Clive says:

      10:03am | 10/09/10

      If you don’t know whether you are Arthur or Martha, what hope do you have of making a proper decision, sure some of the world’s greatest people have been homosexual[not Gay, they have poluted that word ],  but I think that had discretion which is a product lacking in the present group of abnormal people, I am not homophobic, I am a normal human being.

    • taiabada says:

      10:07am | 10/09/10

      My only concern now is that it is only a matter of time before same-sex marriage becomes not only the norm, but COMPULSORY!

    • T.Chong says:

      10:44am | 10/09/10

      Damoclese, your het- good for you. And yes, I’ll fight the politically incorrect, even to the point of acknowledging you have a right to your anger, and homophobia.

    • Kordez says:

      10:56am | 10/09/10

      @Old Clive, Heterosexual couples express their sexuality through tools and communication like wedding/engagement bands and referring to their partner as wife/husband etc.. In a non-discrete way.
      Why should it be any different for homosexual couples? Freedom of expression shouldn’t change because you sleep with the same sex. Pollution of a word? Really? Normally you have a better argument dude, lift your game.
      I’m not Heterophobic. I’m just a normal human being.

      The Greens couldn’t run the country without help, but Steve’s provided no decent examples of why.

    • William says:

      11:22am | 10/09/10

      How do ignorant bigotted comments like the ones from Howy, Old Clive and Taiabada get through?  Can people just say whatever moronic rubbish they want because they are hiding behind their computers?

    • taiabada says:

      12:08pm | 10/09/10

      William, I’m not bigotted - I am homosexual!  But never Gay.  Don’t you have a sense of humour?

    • Gavin H says:

      12:21pm | 10/09/10

      I don’t mind heterosexual people. Just as long as they act gay (normal) in public and don’t go rubbing their heterosexuality in my face.

    • Peter says:

      12:27pm | 10/09/10

      William: Yes, they can. The anonymity of the internet brings out the coward in many but that said,  I think it’s important that Bob Brown’s homosexuality is available in the public forum as a definer. If the personal was political in the 1970s, the sexual is ideological in century twenty one.

    • Old Clive says:

      12:35pm | 10/09/10

      Just who are the bigots?.

    • John says:

      01:37pm | 10/09/10

      Bob Brown does not have any assigned moral leadership though I agree, he tends to act like that at times, as if he is the much more grounded, virtuous and caring ‘politician’. I am unsure if he is more in touch with the grassroots than his political opponents.  His test to prove his mettle is imminent.  That said, sexuality and religious beliefs should be not thrown up to vilify or automatically define any person’s position on issues or what they might do.  Penny Wong is gay, but can we determine what this fact may have on her role in climate change policy development or other portfolio she may be allocated?  No, so let’s focus on the demonstrable actions rather than relating too much to people’s perceived or assumed values or even background.

    • Mike t says:

      03:11pm | 10/09/10

      @ T. Chong.

      Your right mate Bobs sexuality has nothing to do with it!! The same as Abbots religious beliefs have nothing to do with his policies. Maybe you might want to jump on your mates on this site that are happy to degrade others based on sexual/religious preferance or is your mantra equality, unless i disagree with you.

    • Zatnikatal says:

      05:38pm | 10/09/10

      @ Mike t
      Sexuality is not something you can choose. It is innate and does not even have to be acted on, but it is not a choice. Being gay, bisexual or straight does not obligate you act in any way or believe anything. You can have gay liberal, gay green, gay labour etc, etc.
      Religious belief however is a choice. Committed religious belief does not obligate you to act in a certain way, believe a certain thing. We do not really know how committed Abbot is and how it affects his judgement on political matters. However maybe he gives onto Caesar what his and unto God what is his.
      Sexuality does not predetermine belief and values in the way committed religious belief does. I have been a queer catholic,  a queer liberal voter, a disappointed queer Rudd supporter, a queer who would never vote for Green because being queer does not make me stupid. My queerness does not define or control how I act, committed religious belief does. Maybe the reason we are the lucky country is because we do not have many strongly committed religious people but are built for the most on the nicer parts of the Christian doctrine.

    • fairsfair says:

      09:55pm | 10/09/10

      Some people don’t think religioin is a choice just like some people do believe that sexuality is a choice. Either way we are all destined to glorious sh*tfight.

      Hey, does anyone else out there think that Steve chose to include the term “same sex partner” as a descriptor (as the push for same sex marriage is one of the major policy issues for the Greens) in the same way that “enjoying the Tasmanian WIlderness” indicates the Greens Environmental stance?

      Talk about blow up over nothing. So now stating the obvious in a politically correct manner is homophobic. I’ll stop calling the Aboriginals Aboriginals - that is majorly racist and I should be ashamed of myself.

    • Rosie says:

      08:31am | 10/09/10

      Chris the problem is right here; “In a democracy, a minority must work to persuade the majority. They must not seek to manipulate legislative processes lest they provoke an even more intolerant position from the majority.”

      If this was the case we wouldn’t have had to wait 17 days after the election to find out from the minority to which party they had decided on to govern the nation.

      These guys because they were on a power trip after given an inch decided to take a mile.

    • Gondor says:

      09:07am | 10/09/10

      All MPs are there to represent their electorate. Not their party or whatever the 2PP (or first preference majority) votes indicated.

      All MPs are perfectly entitled to vote on what they think is best for them and their electorate. Thus, if the Greens want to knock back a piece of legislation that doesn’t sit well with them then it is entirely within their ‘mandate’ to do so.

      Boat people was nothing mroe than a cynical piece of dog whistling to impress the moronic bogans in the western suburbs. Labor lost my vote when they decided to pander to these imbeciles and echo the Howard/Hanson policies.

      A desperate grab for attention and power

    • Ben81 says:

      01:58pm | 10/09/10

      Gondor - fortunately the majority of people don’t want to turn over part of our refugee intake to people smugglers for purely political reasons.  John Howard put a stop to them and took in refugees responsibly and we ended up with a handful locked up in detention, Labor policies meant people smuggling and thousands of people in immigration detention, and Gillard was starting to wake up to that fact.  Not that you actually care.

    • Gondor says:

      05:08pm | 10/09/10

      Ben81

      If you believe that then I have a bridge to sell you.

      Everything you said was wrong. Boatpeople numbers dropped off because of the war efforts in Afghanistan not because Howard had any special abilities. Now that the Afghanistan war has turned for the worse boatpeople numbers have risen.

      Most refugees come by plane and are from China. Boatpeople are an amazingly small proportion. But they are easy to target and get bogans excited. Bogans aren’t very good at critical thought.

    • Ben81 says:

      06:25pm | 10/09/10

      Sorry Gondor, but you’re a bit mixed up there.  There is nothing, *nothing* outside our country that coincidentally lines up with the massive drops in boat arrivals for years and the huge immediate spike back as soon as Rudd meddled with things.  Talking as if Afghanistan is the only country these people come from is a joke too, what about all the others?  Sri Lankan Tamils arriving over a year after their civil war ended, just for one example? Our laws and attitudes can and do have a big effect on people smuggling, that’s been proven.  If people smugglers can’t promise to their customers that they’ll get their customers to Australia their business is gone, simple.

      “Most refugees come by plane “
      Good, that’s the way it should be.  That’s the whole point.  I suspect you’re confused though between people arriving then claiming asylum, and asylum seekers who have been accepted from overseas arriving here.  Go check out the percentage of people in immigration detention who arrived on planes, they’re a tiny minority.  Even if they were the majority, which they aren’t, the argument that “we have X amount of people entering the country therefore we should accept people smuggling” is plain dumb and doesn’t make sense.

      Please stop living in a fairytale.

    • Ben81 says:

      07:24pm | 10/09/10

      Mordor - Yes, there are plenty of bogans and racists around.  The “F*** off we’re full” crowd speak only for themselves and aren’t represented by any serious party, as the real issue is people smuggling.  They’ve been around long before this issue and will probably be around for as long as I live.

      The fact remains that there are tens to hundreds of millions of people in the world who would fit our criteria for refugee status, we can’t possibly take in 0.1% of them, and we need to do things responsibly.  Outsourcing part of our refugee intake to people smugglers and having to then lock up thousands of people is irresponsible and unfair to people starving to death without the means to hand over a large amount of cash, not to mention dangerous.
      If some racists think not having thousands of people in immigration detention and not watching people making perilous boat voyages every single day is a victory for them then so be it.  It’s not an excuse to pretty much demand that people smuggling continues unchecked!

    • Hermano says:

      08:33am | 10/09/10

      I have no idea what all of that meant, but the general vibe is that you’re not very happy with the outcome of the election.

    • Green destabilisation. says:

      08:35am | 10/09/10

      One of the reasons former PM Rudd is foolishly hanging around Labor Party fringes red-faced and humiliated is his refusal to act upon public dissatisfaction to his open border beliefs. He is a ridiculous sight, equally as Bob Brown whose constant media appearances, his “I wants” give the impression that the independants annointed Brown as PM.
      Yes, Bob Brown (with his tax-you-to-death mentality intended to feather bed the bone idle and so build a Green-gratitude vote) thinks that he is actually running this country.  He’s even suggesting that the “Opposition” work with him and the four independants who pre-election unethically portrayed themselves as “independant”, yet post-election sided with Labor for things like a Ministry. Independants they are not. They are constituent funded by pretence.
      And did the Oakeshott we came to know provide any intellectual appearance sufficient to justify ministerial responsibilities, let alone trumping more worthy, longer serving Labor faithfuls who waited in line for years?
      Bob Brown and his open border plans are in direct conflict with Gillard’s oft-repeated commitment to continue with the East Timor off-shore processing centre. 
      Our government is looking more divided every time one of them opens their mouth. The PM is a divisive figure by example, her unionist supporters are divided amongst themselves, Bob Brown is dividing all of them and the independants arrogantly ignored their constituents.

    • Heath Karl says:

      10:44am | 10/09/10

      If Bob Brown has an open boarders policy, he has my vote! If capital can move freely across the globe, with no concern for national boundaries, then people must have the same right.

    • Jim says:

      10:51am | 10/09/10

      Yeah Karl…worked well in other PC-fearing nations like France and the UK. No violence or crime or terror cells anywhere, no economic problems, no adjustments in people way of lives so as not to offend anyone….good move. Didn’t your mum tell you not to take drugs?

    • Markus says:

      12:37pm | 10/09/10

      Don’t know about you Heath, but I couldn’t care less if I am not allowed freely into some of the craphole 3rd world countries around.

    • Brown's Looney Tunes. says:

      01:55pm | 10/09/10

      There’s a view that Australia is already heading towards the same social disruption that the UK and Europe are enduring from border laxity.  Post WWII immigration was a different kettle of fish from post-Vietnam war immigration. Probably because the earlier religions, cultures and social values were very similar to our own, and to those that our forefathers gave their lives to protect.

      Bland pro-open-border comments like we get from Brown and the looney-tuners on the justification that “Australia is an immigrant nation”, fail to note that the immigration model has changed markedly and that not everyone enjoys having multi-culturalism rammed down their throats.  Not everyone wants to emulate Europe and England’s regretted irreversible circumstances.

    • James1 says:

      02:44pm | 10/09/10

      Heath Karl has in fact hit on one of the central tenets of liberal, and neoliberal, economic policy.  In order for the market to function perfectly, labour must be allowed to move freely across borders.  If neoliberal economics is linked to conservative politics, then conservative politics technically should support the free movement of labour.  Maybe some of you are not as neoliberal as you thought…

      In that regard, I find Bob Katter much scarier than the Greens right now.  His performance on Q&A was worrying, given his position on free trade.  He would have every consumer in this country paying more than they need to so as to subsidise the Mercedes Benz of some lazy banana farmer who is too stupid to switch up and grow something he can make a profit off without government intervention in the market.

    • David says:

      08:38am | 10/09/10

      So your problem with the “new politics” is that your side doesn’t get to play AND gets made to look like a bunch of deceptive clowns at the same time?

      Hide your children! The progressives are coming to give them rights and protect their civil liberties while making sure our elected representatives are held to account.

      Won’t somebody think of the children?!

      Some of us have a much stronger vision for democracy than others, and if that means a conciliatory approach and, god forbid, compromise, we’ll all be the better for it.

    • Nicole says:

      09:32am | 10/09/10

      Progressives? Yes we’re going to progress right back to the 1800s. We’re progressing to becoming a bunch of pot smoking, LSD tripping, flower power, tree hugging, hippies!

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      09:42am | 10/09/10

      Hang on. Define ‘‘compromise’‘.

      If someone makes a commitment during an election that they will pursue a certain path if elected, then that is precisely what they should do. Compromise can be reached by one group proposing minor amendments and the Government accepting them, sure, but the basic election promise must be honoured. Otherwise, what is the point of an election? Not all of us vote blindly for either Liberal or Labor - we actually judge it on election platforms.

    • Markus says:

      11:34am | 10/09/10

      “Otherwise, what is the point of an election?” Because you aren’t the only person who votes in the election, Tony.
      Even if the party you voted for received 51% of the seats in the lower house, that leaves 49% of voters who didn’t agree with their policies, a very large minority to risk ignoring outright.

      In this case Labor did not even get 51%, so yes, ‘compromise’ means they either have to amend their own policies to appeal to part of the other 51%, or agree to include policies of the other 51% to pass their own policies unamended.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      12:27pm | 10/09/10

      Amend, yes. Ignore, no.

      Orffshore processing of illegals was an election commitment. I don’t really care if they ‘‘amend’’ it to Albania or ‘‘compromise’’ on Columbia as long as it isn’t here.

      If we continue to process in Australia, we will simply be sending an open invitation to every Tom, Dick and Habibi to swan on over and then send home for their rellies.

    • mike T says:

      12:51pm | 10/09/10

      @ Markus…. failed argument my friend… where has tony hinted that his vote is the only one that counts. His point, which is very clear, is that if you ride into power based on election PROMISES, then you are entilted to keep them….pretty simple really. Silly he had to point this out, even silly that you didnt get it

    • Mayday says:

      01:01pm | 10/09/10

      The LNP showed how progressive the party is -

      1. Youngest elected MP
      2. Indigenous MP elected.

      The ALP is still relying on the old faithful Union hacks and ambulance chasers!

    • MarK says:

      01:05pm | 10/09/10

      Ahhh civil liberties.

      Code for we will impose our minority views on you whether you like it or not .

    • Markus says:

      02:01pm | 10/09/10

      mike T
      I don’t see what I missed. If Labor received an absolute majority, i.e ‘ride into power’ based on their policies then your point may be valid.
      As they didn’t, then yes they need to reassess their policies based on the the policies of the other MPs/parties they count on support from.

      This is how a minority government operates, and how our Westminster system always should have.

      In this case Labor have (supposedly, all of this is speculation at this point) chosen the latter of the two options I outlined, and have shelved this policy based on Greens policy, and will likely call in the favour later on for Greens to pass a more important Labor bill unamended down the track (which I fear is the Net Filter).

    • KH says:

      03:04pm | 10/09/10

      Mayday - a protest vote is hardly an endorsement, nor does it demonstrate ‘progressiveness’.

    • antman says:

      04:11pm | 10/09/10

      Tony, I think you mean processing of asylum seekers, not illegals. Put the dog whistle away, please.

    • bobw says:

      08:40am | 10/09/10

      More anti-Greens hysteria from The Punch, swathed in yet more misrepresentation of how our parliamentary system (that is, “real world democracy”) actually works.

      The claim that “rejection of off-shore processing” was “clearly repudiated” at the election is simply ridiculous.  The election was not a single-issue plebiscite.  Many people would have voted for and against the ALP, the Coalition and the Greens for reasons that had nothing whatsoever to do with asylum seekers. 

      By your tortured logic, no party is now in a position to legitimately implement any unique policy taken to the election, because none of them actually achieved a primary electoral majority.  They all constitute pernicious “minorities” seeking to “manipulate legislative processes” to their own ends.

      Policy-making based to some degree on “post election deal-making” is simply a necessity where no one party commands an outright parliamentary majority, even if the Australian tendency to shift power between two major parties has historically obscured that fact.  We entrust the legislative process to elected representatives rather than voting for or against policies as such; in consequence, governmental action is, for better or for worse, a product of compromise and accommodation.

    • Ray H says:

      08:45am | 10/09/10

      You seem unable to differentiate an ochlocracy from a system of representative democracy.

    • Bob H says:

      12:04pm | 10/09/10

      @Ray H - are we related?

    • Old Clive says:

      08:50am | 10/09/10

      This mob don’t even know who they are, let’s face the facts we are on our way down, when the minorities in nearly every faction in this country are getting the most publicity and say in wehat they want.

    • Heath Karl says:

      10:59am | 10/09/10

      You musn’t be old enough, Clive. In 1788 a tiny minority exerted themselves over the absolute majority, and the majority at the time did indeed get dragged down by a ruthless and agressive faction. I think it may be the Australian way.

    • Malthus says:

      11:57am | 10/09/10

      So, Heath, do you want to repeat history, with today’s Australians to be dragged down by a ruthless and aggressive faction?

    • Heath Karl says:

      03:23pm | 10/09/10

      As I said in a previous post, I support a policy of open boarders. If that necessarily means a repeat of history, so be it, we reap what we sow. We stole the continent in the first instance, so for me to bleat about others following suit in the second, would be ridiculous. Aboriginals made room for us, because we forced them to, so let the current generation force their will on our society. You are free to resist, ofcourse, and I am free to instigate.

      To take it to its final conclusion, I am willing to forgoe a meal if it meant another who needs one recieves one. Same goes for someone seeking refuge, or economic security. I think you understand my philosophy.

    • Peter says:

      05:12pm | 10/09/10

      Heath Karl. Thinking of the Australian aborigines of 1788 as an “absolute majority” is an impressive display of self delusion, one regularly indulged by those enamoured of the myth of a pre-existing Koori nation.
      There were hundreds of languages before the English tongue arrived. Yet you somehow entertain the fantasy of an “absolute majority” despite the fact that each language group was isolated from scores, if not most others not just by insurmountable distance but by a unique language.
      Quite often the fist, the club, the spear and the rapist’s penis did all the talking.
      But your capacity for self-deception doesn’t surprise. You also think aborigines were “dragged down” by the same culture that’s given you your communication skills, electricity, the internet and a right to voice your opinions.
      I’d be interested to see a list of 18th century aboriginal customs you’d be happy to adopt and what from the Anglo-Western tradition you’d be prepared to abandon. I bet you keep the fridge.

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      08:36pm | 10/09/10

      @ Heath Karl
      While I admire your philosophy (no sarcasm intended, this is a noble principle) at offering to willingly to “forgoe a meal”, I do have to question your logic, it’s conclusions and its impact on you.

      Can you say that with your policy of open borders, anyone would be welcome, anytime?

      For example. A rough approximation is that there are 20 million refugees who are currently waiting in camps for settlement.  Add to that the citizens of other nations who may also immigrate freely across your “open borders” looking for a higher standard of living.  That number is considerably higher than 20 million, but all are welcome.

      So I have to ask, how many meals are you willing to forgo? A “one for one” ratio is just not enough.

    • Wayne Fehlhaber says:

      08:51am | 10/09/10

      This is a perfect summation of the dillemma now facing Australia with a government propped up by a bunch of left leaning loonies and cobbled together by judas M.P. turncoats from conservative seats.
      The Greens are now in a position to foist their minority will on an electorate
      which wants off-shore assylum seeker processing.
      The threat of withdrawal of support from the Greens and the renegade M.P.‘s hangs in the halls of of the House of Representatives. The will of the people will not prevail . The minority rabble which tacks together the Gillard government are about to enter into an era of dictatorial blackmail to achieve the lunacy dreamed up and presented as policy , largely laughed at and ignored , by the bulk of the Australian electorate.
      The really dangerous and twisted view put forward by Gillard’s M.P.‘s and minders , is that this scenario is democracy at work.

    • Lee West says:

      10:21am | 10/09/10

      Wayne I think you need to stop smoking whatever it is you smoke, as you are clearly paranoid about some great big Greens conspiracy.

      How are the Greens going to foist their will on us? As you say they are a minority, and last time I checked a minority couldn’t foist anything on us through Parliament.

      As for the “judas MP turncoats”, how do you arrive at that conclusion? Last time I checked they ran as Independents. Maybe you should invest in a dictionary so you can look up what the actual meaning of those big words, turncoat and independent, actually mean.

      Wayne by the tone of your ill informed rant, you seem to think that democracy is all about what you want. Whether people like it or not, this is the system of democracy we live under here in Australia. A system that has served us well for many years.

      Maybe you should just wait and see what actually transpires and then criticise if it is warranted. But then again I guess you are probably the kind of person who annoys everyone else, by constantly whingeing about how things don’t conform to what you want.

    • bobw says:

      10:56am | 10/09/10

      Come clean, Wayne - you’re a parody of a diehard Coalition supporter, right?

    • Wayne Fehlhaber says:

      11:02am | 10/09/10

      Lee West :  (1)  I don’t smoke drugs or tobacco.
      (2)  The Greens are able to withdraw the support of Bandt in the House of Reps. and next July can effectively block govt. legislation in the Senate . There is a price to propping up this minority govt. and the Green’s will extract their measure of blood.
      (3) One of the so called Independents was elected under the National party banner then declared himself independent . Both Windsor and Oakshott represent a majority of conservative voters . Labor’s vote in both seats was apallingly low. Go check it.
      (4) Democracy is all about what the majority of the electorate wants. Not about what a minority lunatic fringe wants.
      (5 ) I’m the kind of person who will argue for the democratic rights of the majority and unlike yourself , i do not allow lunatic fringe politics to cloud the issues. as for my post being an ill-informed rant , i suggest you check the detail of what i have said . You will find that it is correct .
      I would further suggest that you keep in mind that if Bandt withdraws his support in the House of Reps. , the Labor minority govt. would be defeated on the floor of the house. These realities have given the Greens or either one of the turncoats the power to push their agenda with the threat of bringing Gillard’s govt. down. I trust that this is not too difficult for you to understand.

    • Markus says:

      12:21pm | 10/09/10

      Wayne
      (2) Much like the situation with the Independents, don’t blame the Greens for taking advantage of a chance to represent their voters.
      Labor chose to approach the Greens in order to broker a deal. If Labor thought that the Greens’ requests were too outrageous they could have also approached the other party making up 73 seats in the house, whose policies (when they have them) are more similar to their own, but I suspect they would be a little too immature to deal with.

      3) Siding with Labor at this point gets Windsor and Oakeshott the things their electorate wanted, they have done their job. All other MPs should be doing the same and putting their electorate first.

      4)  Labor+Greens+Independents = majority. Basic maths.

      5) Again, both the Independents and Greens are achieving what is in the best interest of their electorates.
      Labor could instead choose to negotiate with Liberal to pass bills, amending them based on what Liberal see in the best interest of Their voters. But as I said above, Liberal will just reject everything out of spite just because Labor thought of it, even if the bill itself is in the best interest of their voters.
      Liberal would have this same stubborn problem with Labor if they were the incumbent government, so the only people both parties have to blame for the current situation are each other.

    • remlap says:

      03:15pm | 10/09/10

      Wayne. The measure of success for this government is going to be how effective they are in proposing, amending and passing legislation in both houses.

      Assuming for a second that the Greens are indeed a lunatic fringe as you suggest, then perhaps they will run rampant through the House of Reps and the Senate in an attempt to “extract their measure of blood”. But that would be political suicide, guaranteeing their irrelevance at the next election.

      Now I know you’d love them to commit political harakiri, but it would be foolish to think the Greens would willingly blow any political gains they had made by playing hard-ball with the parliamentary process.

      Senator Fielding has already indicated he will oppose legislation in the Senate for the remainder of his term. There is going to be more difficulty on that front for the next few months than any imagined watermelon/socialist/union-dictatorship conspiracy that you can conceive.

    • Wayne Fehlhaber says:

      06:40pm | 10/09/10

      Markus :  I gave a detailed reply to your post of 12.21pm but like several of my posts it disappeared in cyberspace. However i will try again but keep my reply to your point number4 .
      ” Labor+Greens+Independents=majority.”
      Coalition +2 Independents voted from conservative seats + 1 Independent elected under National party banner and declared himself Ind. after he won=the majority of Australian conservative voters and the majority of Australians who voted at the ballot box..  Also basic maths.

    • Wayne Fehlhaber says:

      08:39pm | 10/09/10

      Remlap :  Quite right , the governments success depends on their ability to have their Legislative programme passed in both Houses.
      Therein lies the opportunity for the Greens to push their own policies via Bandt in the House of Reps. and next july via the Senate when they will control the proceedings.
      Do you think for one minute that the lunatic fringe will not attempt to push their own policies through as payment for propping up the Labor minority. ?  Of course they will. !
      Your eloquent reference to my ” watermelon/socialist/ union dictatorship theory ”  is a nonsense line when held up against all the facts.
      The whole matter , hopefully , will not be tested , as i simply cannot see this rabble surviving for any great length of time. Incidently , that view is shared by none other than that great Labor stalwart , Graham Richardson.

    • remlap says:

      06:59am | 11/09/10

      Nonsense lines beget nonsense lines. At least I was aware of what I was shoveling.

    • Steve Putnam says:

      09:29am | 12/09/10

      Poor Wayne! This serious faction of one the Greens have in the House of Representatives has obviously caused you a few sleepless nights. As for Windsor and Oakshot, they went with the party whose figures added up; figures which had moreover been made public from the start of the election campaign unlike Abbott’s tissue of lies and mistakes. In doing so, they will achieve more for their electorates than was achieved in decades of misrule by the agrarian socialists who call themselves the Nationals.

    • Chris says:

      09:00am | 10/09/10

      It is simple. The Greens do not have a mandate for their policies. Even “in coalition” with Labor they do not have a mandate for their policies.  They do not have a mandate to radically change or block legislation in the Senate either.  All they have is a mandate to try and negotiate minor changes more in keeping with their policies.
      Unfortunately they do not see it this way and our electoral system gives them far more power than the actual electorate wishes.

    • bobw says:

      10:46am | 10/09/10

      Mandate, schmandate.  The poor word has been subjected to more rhetorical abuse than it can bear over the last couple of weeks.

      I agree with one thing though:  It is simple.  Representative government is not about having a “mandate”, it’s about having the numbers when it matters.

    • Rod H says:

      09:13am | 10/09/10

      Should the Greens and Independents base their policies and actions on “majority opinion” even when it is clear that a very large proportion of the population base its views on vastly inflated perceptions of the number of boat people, or have no idea at all? Essential Research in a pre-election poll found that only about 1/3 of voters knew that “boat people” make up less than 5% of our immigration intake. Nearly half of all coalition voters and over a third of Labor voters believed the figure was over 10%, and more than 1 in 10 believed it was over 50% when the reality is that even with the recent surge it is really about 3%! 

      Yes, all political parties need to pay some heed to the views of the public as a whole, but when those views are based on such false perceptions , and mercilessly fuelled by another party stoking the fires and the fears with a platform based on silly “stop the boats” slogans, the Greens and Independents would be remiss in the extreme, even derelict in their duties, to compromise their principles in such circumstances.

    • Gregg says:

      11:31am | 10/09/10

      Rod,
      You have one great fallacy to your comments for it is nothing to do with % of immigration for immigration is planned for people with skills, family connections and yes there is a humanitariam program.

      The boat people are not part of the plan and whereas with the himanitariam program where true refugees can be sponsored by organisations and individuals to the tune of 7750 p.a. if you get up to that number of people smugglers boat people, they become 100% and the true refugees do not get sponsored and we the taxpayer foot all the costs.

      Read up on some true facts and stop misrepresenting the situation.

    • Markus says:

      11:58am | 10/09/10

      You have a point.
      Many people’s issue is actually with the high influx of legal immigration in recent years - myself included, as both state and Fed govt have done sweet f**k all with infrastructure to accomodate this population increase.
      But because both Labor and Liberal did not dare mess with this cashcow of disposable income and votes, they instead warped the issue to make voters think they were outraged at something else entirely, and it worked.
      I sincerely hope people wake up to this and respond by voting for someone that actually represents their electorate next time, as our system is meant for.

    • James Waites says:

      09:23am | 10/09/10

      Many important needs, request and desires were overlooked by both major parties over the past 15 years. Why are people so afraid of a situation, where NO-ONE can boss anybody around and consensus politics is required as a matter of procedure. To me the outcome of he election is ideal.

      Good politicians should lead the public anyway, not be lead by the nose by the uninformed - no latter how many are out there. That’s why the People’s Assembly on climate change was such a stupid idea.

    • Mike T says:

      01:02pm | 10/09/10

      @ james

      I agree with you in a sense james that consensus politics sounds like a great concept, especially since our leaders (on both sides) have become more spin Doctors then anything else these days. The concern for myslef andd many other is that negotiation effectivly morphs into the word bribe as the govermenet must continue to make decisions based on paying off/pleasing all of the differt factions involved. The loser in this situation is the Australain people as many resources will not go to those that trully need it, they will go to areas that apease the different factions…... Think im wrong, then let me ask you where the funding for the country folk has come from for the country stimulus??? it will be taken directly from other areas of the country to appease the independant and win thier vote without any justification of reasoning.

    • nosthow says:

      09:25am | 10/09/10

      One thing is for sure Chris is that the Mad Monk will, whenever it suits him, embrace the Greens. The Greens are the emerging 3rd party in Australian politics so for any of the two major partys to ignore them is not good policy. they won their 1st HORPS seat in the recent election so expect to see more and more of them as time goes by. Ms Gillard has been astute enough to see that and that is why Bandt went with Labor completely bypassing the Mad Monk and his band of ancients.

    • Jim says:

      10:48am | 10/09/10

      How long did the Democrats last after their affiliation and love for all things Labor (literally as it turned out) was made obvious to the public? Not long. Abbott is not foolish enough to side with the greens because they are dead ducks come next election when they only retain their rusted-on feral votes. Be lucky to get 1-2%.

    • Mike T says:

      11:41am | 10/09/10

      @ Nosthow

      Firstly, you should try to make a post without name calling. Do you notice that those that dont like Miss Gillard rarely refer to her as the Childless God Hater. Why, because its childish and shows that you cant form an argument.

      Secondly, in regards to the greens being the emerging party… If this new found coalition is difficlut for the ALP to maintain (which no doubt it will be) just watch the ALP attack the green seats at the next election with all of thier venom….. does the word “democrats” mean anything to you???

    • Z says:

      12:36pm | 10/09/10

      Adam Bandt only got across the line with Liberal preferences.
      Now that Liberal voters have seen that he’s nothing more than a poisoned arm of Labor, the result might be entirely different next time. 
      I know many Liberal voters in that electorate who have already said that they’ll preference towards Labor next time regardless of any Coalition HTV card.  Good luck Adam.

    • Tator says:

      10:53pm | 10/09/10

      Z,
      you would probably find that the preferences that Bandt got from most Liberal voters would have been the second last one with the ALP last so it will be a bit hard to preference them any lower without giving the seat back to the ALP.

    • The Badger says:

      09:27am | 10/09/10

      Ridiculous thought bubble
      This election was not about asylum seekers
      Your assumption that all those who voted liberal or labor wanted off-shore processing is ridiculous.

    • Ben81 says:

      01:39pm | 10/09/10

      Yeah how ridiculous, people should be expected to forget about major election promises once the result is in, as long as Labor is in power of course.  Already making excuses, Badger?

    • The Badger says:

      02:17pm | 10/09/10

      Sorry Ben,
      When I vote in an election, I vote against, not for. There is no way that I would vote for a conservative party or for a man like Tony Abbott and the far right wing ideology that he represents.

      As far as I am concerned. Labor was the lesser of two evils and I didn’t agree with all of their policies.

      Perhaps in your mind, you blindly nod your head every time the dog whistle is blown an can’t make up your own mind on which of the policies you agree with either partially or totally.

      No party has a mandate to do anything. In case you hadn’t noticed, all policies will be subject to debate and negotiation before they are enacted into law.

      Play your silly game about mandates and follow your party blindly off the abyss.  Negativity alone will do the conservatives no good and will win you less votes when an election comes next.

      Compromise for the common good is what democracy is about.

      Men build too many walls and not enough bridges.
      Isaac Newton

    • MarK says:

      04:26pm | 10/09/10

      The Badger says: 02:17pm | 10/09/10

      “When I vote in an election, I vote against, not for”

      I love being positive don’t you?

      “Negativity alone will do the conservatives no good “

      Well negativity seems to consume your thought processes and pushes your buttons to vote.

      Really you got to watch what you write. You deride in others the very traits that motivate your voting intentions.

      “the far right wing ideology ” - you guys and your boogie monsters seriously

      “No party has a mandate to do anything.”

      Glad we cleared that up. So is this Gillard rainbow alliance illegitimate or merely impotent? I am so sad to see you casually toss out a get out of gaol card for her whole administration. I thought you had something you stood for. Oh well the people of Epping are used to waiting for a train anyway amongst other things.

      “Perhaps in your mind, you blindly nod your head every time the dog whistle is blown an can’t make up your own mind on which of the policies you agree with either partially or totally.”

      See that is just you traipsing down the well worn path of the left. It is like civil liberties and homophobia and “isms”. All code for if you don’t like my view you are brain dead and have been deceived by radical ideology. It is what you use when you don’t have arguments that stack up, intellectual courage or, and lets not be coy here, an inability to see anything but your own point of view. It is a cowards way. The first thing Gillard did was go illegal spotting on a boat with Bradbury. Yet this is now easily tossed aside. Convenient, self serving and boorish.

      “Compromise for the common good is what democracy is about.”

      Rubbish you just proved and stated you will not compromise. It is either your view or nothing. Ask Brown if he will compromise. What a joke.

      It really has been a while since I read something so devoid of soul or thinking.

      I truly feel sorry for you. The world must be very grey.

    • The Badger says:

      05:48pm | 10/09/10

      Mark
      Go get some sleep
      You’ve lost the plot

    • MarK says:

      09:20pm | 10/09/10

      Ahh yes The Badger comes back with witty and biting commentary.

      /yawn….used to it. Get a point of view that isn’t contradictory and come see me.

    • Dom says:

      09:43am | 10/09/10

      When did Australia become a Democracy and not a liberal Democracy?  The 4 basic tenents of liberal democracy are

      ” # A belief in the individual, based on the idea that the individual is both moral and rational

      # A belief in REASON and PROGRESS, based on the belief that growth and development are the natural conditions of mankind, with politics the art of compromise

      # A consensual theory of society, based on the belief that society is a kind of mutual benefit association, based on the desire for order and co-operation, rather than disorder and conflict

      # A suspicion of concentrated forms of power, whether by individuals, groups or governments”

      Sounds like this Parliament is ticking all the boxes.  Australia observes the Westminster system. We do not vote for a Prime Minister, we vote for a party that does. It is not about first across the line.  Some don’t seem to understand the system they live within.  Why question the rules because there was no clear winner?

    • A Bob says:

      01:09pm | 10/09/10

      I am glad to see one person able to understand and express the true nature of our democracy. Chris clearly does not, with a statement like this:

      “In a democracy, a minority must work to persuade the majority. They must not seek to manipulate legislative processes lest they provoke an even more intolerant position from the majority.”

      In other words, go with with the flow, lest you end up getting lynched. And it’s happened, as in the US civil rights movement where black people may have won rights in the courts only to end up being beaten or even murdered. That is not a majority, that is a mob.

      Western history is littered with examples of people who have made sacrifices to create greater freedoms for all in the face of such ‘majorities’. It’s a fundamental part of the ethos of our culture. Yes, the mob might turn on you, but it doesn’t make you wrong.

      Alas, the nature of humanity is such that ‘persuasion’ only occurs in the aftermath of the mobs violence. Chris’ ideal of ‘persuasion’ is only achieved by gaining the majorities permission first, implying that they have already been persuaded, which is clearly illogical.

      This is not a comment in favour or against the Greens. I don’t care for many of their policies, personally. It is a defence of what we are as a society. This is a testing time for our democracy, to see if this can be made to work. I’m doubtful, but hope against hope all the same.

      Nevertheless, I would rather see it fail because people argued but could not agree, rather than see it succeed because they were too fearful to speak.

    • Andrew says:

      10:01am | 10/09/10

      I watched Q & A on Monday night. It was actually quite interesting and a little more balanced than usual (notwithstanding Bob Katter’s hat takiing centre stage).

      One lady, mentioned that the Greens had around 180 policies on their website and more than 1/3 of them related to new taxes. The lady asked if the Greens were the party of taxes.

      The deputy Greens leader (who I must say presented very well) answered by saying the Greens wanted to lessen the gap between ricch and poor. I see this as the heart of the Greens. They really seem to resent wealth. Their answer to lessening the gap is not to open pathways for the less fortunate to improve themselves, or indeed to try to improve the general standard of living but rather it is to bring the leaders back to the pack.

      At their core, is the theory of wealth redistribution not economic growth. Call it socialist, communist, marxist whatever, it is a failed paradigm (apologies I know “paradigm” is overused these days).

      Let’s be clear, we are a small, but very successful country. We do not have enough funds “in house” to develop without foreign capital. To big froeign capital, Australia is still a reltive nobody. If the Greens stand in the way of the inflow of that capital or agitate for structural change which interferes with the inflow of that capital they will not be around for long.

      I look at the Greens policies and shake my head. Sure you will always find 10% or so willing to swallow the Utopian picture they paint but realists and those with experience do not.

      If the MSM scrutinises the Greens in the same way they do the major parties I think they will wither on the vine.

    • Heath Karl says:

      10:55am | 10/09/10

      Andrew, I fear you dont properly understand economics. There is no incompatability between wealth distribution and economic growth. In fact, the very basis of taxation is the redistribution of wealth. You are right on the import of capital in this country, the current account defecit is a measure of this, but it is naive to think other nations see us as nobodies. They obviously see us as a good place to invest their capital, so I think you contradict yourself on that point.

      I also think the size argument is a bit beside the point. One farmer can be self sufficient, because he is organised. If we organise ourselves properly there is no objective reason why we in this country cannot do as we please.

      I am shaking my head also, but because there are people who seem to have given up on the concept of a better tomorrow.

    • Gregg says:

      11:42am | 10/09/10

      I agree totally with what you say Andrew though the real problem lies not in just politicians looking towards the next election and then the one after but the inability of the electorate generally to process what is required to maintain a quality society in the environ of international competiveness let alone have politicians put it forward in a rational way such that the electorate can have any chance of absorbing such information.
      Woe is us!
      Move on 20 - 30 years and there’s much higher unemployment, third rate medical and all services and it’ll be ” where did it all go wrong? ” being the question asked.

    • papachango says:

      04:07pm | 13/09/10

      Exactly right. Margaret Thatcher nailed this obsession with reducing wealth gaps when she said that they’d basically rather the poor were poorer if it meant that no-one was rich.

      Politics of envy at its best.

    • buried lede says:

      10:03am | 10/09/10

      Umm, after we’ve shot the greenies,the lefties and the righties, can somebody please shoot the numptie who captioned that photo? “Their” is not the same as “they’re” in any part of the english speaking world to my knowledge.

    • Nicole says:

      11:06am | 10/09/10

      I think you read it wrong. I read it as ‘they are’ cloning them now. But I could be wrong.

    • James1 says:

      03:21pm | 10/09/10

      You are not wrong Nicole.  There is no other way of reading that statement, as “their” in that context would make no sense.

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      06:39pm | 10/09/10

      @ Nicole
      You’re spot on, and on another positive, you may have just saved one numptie’s life. 

      But for now I’m worried about my possible misuse of apostrophes - buried lede is really cracking down.

    • Nicole says:

      07:38pm | 10/09/10

      Thanks James & LJD. I thought I’d put the disclaimer in to cover myself. I didn’t want to get shot by the spelling police.

    • GreenGoblin says:

      10:14am | 10/09/10

      The ALP/Greens/independents have 52.5% of the primary vote, are you suggesting that the LNP with about 40% of the vote have a mandate? I love con servative logic. Also our elections are based on preferences, the TPP result now clearly favours the ALP, therefore the newly elected Government does have a mandate.

    • Andrew says:

      11:01am | 10/09/10

      Um, wrong!

      Labor - primary vote 38% (-5.4%)
      Libs - 43.7% (+4%)
      Greens - 11.7% (+1.5%)
      Others 6.6%(-0.1%)

      If you add Labor and the Greens together you get 49.7%. If you are counting Jokeshott and Windsor in to make Labors rainbow coalition 52.5% you are completely incorrect because their electorates make up less than 1% of the voting public and niether recieved more than 40% primary.

      In any event your numbers are wrong.

      Secondly, apologies to the word mandate but we are talking about whether the Greens have a mandate not the government.

      They do not.

    • Woopi Dave says:

      04:13pm | 10/09/10

      If you’re going to argue about figures, Andrew, it’s best to get them right. Windsor won 61.87% of the primary vote in New England and Oakeshott 47.15% in Lyne. It might not affect your overall argument but both are significant achievements, especially Windor’s.

    • iansand says:

      10:21am | 10/09/10

      Chris -  There is nothing new about this.  It is something that was always possible, and has now happened.  If it was “new” there would not have been a well recognised process for dealing with the issue.

      You may not like the result, but in a maximum of three years (quite possibly less) we will all have the opportunity to readjust things.

      As for the resut being some sort of referendum on an issue of your choice, that is complete and utter twaddle.  Was it a national referendum on he need for a bypas of some North Queensland town?  I seem to ecall a policy about that. from someone.

    • Jamers Hunter says:

      10:21am | 10/09/10

      much more of this and people will be digging up their guns for a revolution, except were too aspathetic.
      we truly do get the government we deserve.

    • Diamantina Dick says:

      10:24am | 10/09/10

      It may be that The Greens enjoy the limelight for the moment but may suffer severe sunburn at the shortly forthcoming election.

    • Thereyougoroundthemulberrybush says:

      10:30am | 10/09/10

      Chris Gardiner, your logic is circluar and flawed.
      Both major parties provided effectively the same policy on this issue. If the general public disagreed with this policy, there would have been a massive and unprecedented swing to the minor parties that did not hold this policy.

      That is exactly what happened.

      It is unreasonable to suggest that a minor party with previously no seats in the lower house would suddenly gain a majority. A swing in their favour is the only indication that could have been expected, should the Australian people wish to reject the Major parties’ policies.

      It is only reasonable that the major parties recognise that stalwart Labor OR Coalition voters have turned away from supporting them in favour of a minor party. They absolutely should acknowledge the significant number of voters who rejected their policy and therefore consider the alternate policies of the Greens as something their constitiuents support.

      I’m not reading the Punch any more. After several articles which display an illogical spewing of bile without apparent any editorial selection or standards, I’m sick of it. This is all the confirmation I needed to be sure that the Punch has very low standards.

    • Gregg says:

      11:52am | 10/09/10

      Stick with ring a ring around the mulberry bush then and you may yet hare off on a tangent that is not flawed.
      I’d not call the swing to Greens a massive one and Adam Brandt is in the HR solely because of Lindsay Tanner retiring and Liberal preferences.
      He may be less fortunate for the next election.
      As for coalition voters turning away, they got sufficient swing in enough seats to pick up 12.
      But you stick with your analysis.

    • Macon Paine says:

      12:14pm | 10/09/10

      Hate to rain on your farewell parade there mulberrybush, and you can have all the “massive and unprecedented swings” you want btw, but following your own logic more than 80% of the population still support off shore processing.
      The fact that the greens have killed this legislation supports the contentions of the OP’s final 2 paragraphs, read them slowly and carefully:
      “But we are not at the point of testing whether they can cope with this inevitable ‘dirty hands’ dilemma. We are at the point where they have simply failed to carry their fellow citizens in any significant numbers and are attempting to by-pass the obligation to persuade that democracy imposes.

      More worryingly, we are at a crucial point where the minority despairs of the majority, seeks to take advantage of a minority government to ignore that majority, and tells the majority to catch up or suck it up. The question is – on how many policy areas in the next term of government will this new politics disregard the hard work and obligations of real world democracy.”

      Kthxbai

    • Sickemrex says:

      10:31am | 10/09/10

      So if the Greens and Independents rolled over on whatever Labour wanted, that would be ok?  Welcome to the realities of minority government.  As the Americans say, “it is what it is”.  The Greens and Independents didn’t sell their souls to Labour, they only agreed to allow supply and not support frivolous no confidence motions.  It’s not a National Liberal Coalition.

      I’m so sick of this “Australia couldn’t decide” nonsense.  Everyone who voted legitimately made their own decision, and the result is what we have.  Why are members of the media making out that we somehow failed in our task of electing a government?

    • Jim says:

      11:27am | 10/09/10

      Because we did fail mate. Too much apathy and ignorance out there - glossy TV campaigns, biased media, celbrity candidates, unions dipping their dirty hands in where they could, too much of “my vote doesn’t count” and “I don’t like either leader so I’m voting for greens/independents”. Now people realise their votes DO count, and a protest vote has put this country in limbo. Turning the election into a popularity contest, full of what’s-in-it-for-me, and not scrutinising teh policies makes it a failure. If an election was held tomorrow how many independents or greens would get any significant number of votes?

    • Mike T says:

      11:55am | 10/09/10

      I agree with you Sickem…

      Neither party is expected to roll over on issues which they clash. I think the problem is that under the surface thier is alot of issues which these parties are dramaticaly opposed (refuges, same sex mariage, mining tax to name a few).  With both parties needing the support of the other to get anything done where does that leave the effectivness of the government?? I think we are getting caught up in the cudly feeling of a rainbow govt where everyone has a say…. the real issue is can anything actually be done???

    • dale says:

      10:34am | 10/09/10

      Tell me if im wrong here but wouldnt detension centers in australia be a better idea anyway? they would create jobs for cleaners cooks guards???

      If it is done off shore we have to fly them off shore and pay another country MORE then what we could do it for.

    • Nigel Catchlove says:

      10:44am | 10/09/10

      Cleaners, cooks and guards hardly make this the clever country.  There is a shortage of these people in Australia now and unless you place a detention centre in the middle of Sydney or Melbourne you would be very hard pressed to get unskilled or semi-skilled labour for a cheaper price than using an offshore facility.  I think your economic assesment is upside down, there is no way that we could provide that service in Australia for less than a similar service in Vanuatu.

    • Gregg says:

      12:11pm | 10/09/10

      The reason dale for offshore processing is that if it occurs onshore there is a certain profession that spends a lot of time in courts and anyone in Australia, asylum seekers included would have the right to the full range of legal processing and that can mean many years of court time and clogging up the legal system not to mention the costs to taxpayers.

      The use of the Pacific solution as it was called and subsequently now the Christmas Island approach has also failed to some extent you could say for many if not most asylum seekers have in the past been able to provide a history that in a lot of cases cannot be disproven and for that read ” Is an assessment officer going to venture into Taliban territory in Afghanistan? ” or ” How likely will it be to verify facts from what was a civil war conflict zone for Sri Lankans? “
      It does however seem with recent protest in Darwin that there may be some rejections looming so perhaps the well worn stories are getting worn out!

      Offshore processing is also an attempt to discourage people smuggling and used in concert with Temporary Protection Visas it may have been successful for there was a huge drop off in people smuggling between 2002 - 2008 and then it started up again in 2009 after the Labor party revoked TPVs though Labor claim there are other push factors.

      One thing for sure is that without the people smuggling, there’ll be no deaths at sea, less risk to services personnel and less flow on effect to the regular refugee and humanitarian programs.

    • Jacob says:

      10:36am | 10/09/10

      The ALP/Greens are going to teach Australia a very hash lesson and we are going to have a new election soon. The Independents bugged us all and they too have a price to pay.

    • Jim says:

      10:44am | 10/09/10

      RodH has thrown up a few selective statistics there at 9:15am…what would be a much better bunch of statistics would be;

      a) how many people voted for the greens simply as a protest
      b) how many knew they would really be voting for Labor anyway
      c) how many actually knew any of the greens policies?

      Losing the 30% rebate on private health payments, 40% death duties, private members bill, more power to unions to walk into any workplace and throw their weight around….it’s scary to read all their policies.

      Bob Brown needs to get rid of that shit-eating grin he has when he claims 12% of people voted for him, because most of those were ill thought out responses to the two main parties.

    • Scarneck says:

      11:20am | 10/09/10

      Scary thought isn’t it Jim? To think that only 12% of the Australian voting public actually think before they vote wink

    • antman says:

      04:29pm | 10/09/10

      What’s wrong with private members’ bills? Surely that strengthens democracy by providing a greater diversity of views to be seriously considered?

    • monkeytypist says:

      10:46am | 10/09/10

      Chris - I am one of the many thousands who voted Labor who despite not supporting the ALP government’s treatment of asylum seekers.  Don’t be so cute in pretending that Australian voters are monolithic blocks whose votes are simple signatures at the bottom of party manifestos.

    • Cranky says:

      10:49am | 10/09/10

      I’m confused as to where “moral leadership in the face of public opposition” ends and where “anti-democratic Orwellian skullduggery” begins. It’s all relative depending on the issue and party involved. It’s politics, and believe it or not the Greens do politics as well (they are a political party last time I looked). Suck it up.

    • Yon toad says:

      10:54am | 10/09/10

      Love the headline/picture combination!

    • papachango says:

      03:55pm | 13/09/10

      It’s true that these edgy Northcote/Balmain/Fitzroy green types all look a bit the same. For such edgy, cool people they’re rather conformist

    • Derpy Mcderponson says:

      10:57am | 10/09/10

      I see Rupurt’s memo has reached the writers of the punch as well. I can understand that he would be upset after running an election campaign only to have the result he wanted snatched away.
      Perhaps instead of having opinion pieces written that do nothing than to pander to the lowest common denominator to incite them, pieces could be written so the said common denominators could be educated to be able to form their own balanced opinion.
      wait…who am I kidding there are to many vested interests in play for that to ever happen.

    • Sam Chowder says:

      11:10am | 10/09/10

      I was just getting used to ‘mind set’ and now everything is a ‘paradigm’, sounds like an American coin that has joined that army.

    • Mike T says:

      11:22am | 10/09/10

      Many of the Greens policies conflict with that of the ALP. They have jumped into bed to gain the balance of power, now come the difficlut part which is the negotiation on key issues where they differ. Bob strikes me as the type of guy that wont give an inch so it’s going to be very interesting to see what happens…... My guess is Julie will cave on as many issues as required to make things flow and keep the top job. All the while, what Labour stands for continues to be bastardised one small step at a time.

    • AJ says:

      11:33am | 10/09/10

      Those arguing the percentages ignore the obvious coalition of the future - Labor/LP/NP vs the greens and the independants (well maybe not Bob Katter)
      Given the oh-so-close lining up of policy between the two majors this idea isn’t as ridiculous as it sounds, but it certainly reflects the majority view vote wise. My suspicion is that if it comes down to it, there may well be a significant crossing of the floor by one of the majors against any greens proposal that sticks in the craw of good governance. Heroin injecting rooms anyone?

    • Gregg says:

      12:26pm | 10/09/10

      I’d hardly call the policies of the major parties as oh-so-close AJ though that could be an impression generated by media and some independents alike.
      There are massive differences in:
      . financial management outlook, and that means private providers for health and education rather than overuse of taxing/deficit budgetting
      . NBN
      . TPVs re people smuggling and just how much was Timor lip service by whichever Julia
      . Carbon pricing etc.
      . Industrial reform outside of workchoices.
      If the Greens negotiate some legislation with Labor you’ll not see any Labor politician crossing the floor for that is not how they work, they just not having conscience voting as part of their ideology.

    • Ben81 says:

      01:48pm | 10/09/10

      Yes that’s right, Labor members aren’t allowed to cross the floor. 
      On the other hand, you’re going to see the independents and sometimes Greens vote with the Liberals on certain things.

    • Eric Ireland says:

      01:12pm | 11/09/10

      The heroin injecting room in Kings Cross has reduced the number of people dying from drug overdoses. Are you against that?

    • Frank De Nile says:

      11:48am | 10/09/10

      Turning greens and indies in to punching bags is the newest sport in town,but maybe ,if the major parties were as coherent and effective as the hacks think, these guys would not have been elected in the first place.I say give ,em a fair go, if it works at all it will make for accountable goverment,if doesn,t work , we can always go to the polls and revert to a 20 something seat majority which effectively stifles the debate on any issue.

    • Jayne says:

      11:53am | 10/09/10

      Last time I checked we weren’t asked to fill out a questionairre on election day as to why we voted for who we did. How do you know the 80% who voted for a party with an offshore policy voted for them for that reason? I voted Labour, but I’m strongly against an offshore policy.

      The Greens never made a promise to set up an offshore detention centre, and I believe they’re supposed to keep the promises they made to the people who voted for them aren’t they? They don’t owe anything to the people who didn’t.

    • paulm says:

      11:54am | 10/09/10

      The whole argument is a nonsense, because every party has a bag of policies and I guarantee that while people may vote for a party they wouldn’t agree with 100% of their policies either.  I certainly don’t, its a case of finding the party that has more that I like than dislike.  And quite a large flaw in our democracy.  The argument reminds me of polticians saying because they formed government they have a mandate etc, yet often they didn’t even get say 40% of the primary vote, so how is having 6 out 10 people not want you in charge a mandate?  So, just like the Liberal-Labor duopoly the Greens are free to use whatever power they have to maximise their vested interest groups interests.

    • Vincent Le Plastrier says:

      12:59pm | 10/09/10

      I am always amazed about how most discussions on boat people and migration don’t go to the large elephant in the room, ISLAMAPHOBIA.  Post & pre election media interviews in electorates with lots of islamic migrants residing in them clearly reflect that Australians fear the influx of Islamic migrants and their publicly displayed inability to merge into mainstream Australia, this fear is being encouraged by any Oz government letting boat people into the country.  The trouble with ANY processing solution is that it is a fact that 90% of the Nauran processed refugees ended up in Australia or NZ, it may slow the numbers but wont really deal with what Australians really fear is happening to their country.  The rush to accept Lebanese muslim refugees from the rubble of Beiruit has come back to bite us with disaffected youth similar to problems in Britain, France, Holland, Italy, Germany, & the Scandinavian countries.  Neither major political grouping wants to talk about this feeling in Australia that our way of life may be threatened.  It is not where we process the migrants and refugees but who we let into our country that is the real issue.  I am an Australian who has lived through the wonderful waves of migrants who have arrived on our shores, the balts, germans, eastern europeans, greeks, italians, poms, maltese, viets, chinese, all who have merged into Oz and made it a diverse society that we love and enjoy, but I dont feel comfortable about welcoming any more Muslims.

    • James1 says:

      02:50pm | 10/09/10

      I read newspaper articles from 1799 saying the same sorts of things about Irish Catholic convicts being brought to Australia.  I could show you articles saying the same things about Italians from the 1930s and Greeks from the 1950s.  Plenty of people felt the same way you do about Muslims towards the Greeks, Vietnamese, Italians, Jews, Irish, and every other wave of migrants that has ever come here.  Thus, your fear says far more about you than it does the current wave of migrants, Vincent.

    • Vincent Le Plastrier says:

      04:01pm | 10/09/10

      James, my Le Plastrier ancestors were protestant Hugeonots that fled religous persecution by Catholics in France in 1685 and then migrated to Victoria in 1849 when only 10,000 people lived in the then colony, and my Walsh ancestors were Irish Catholic famine migrants to Victoria in 1848, they were met by people waving signs Papists Go Home.  I am living proof of how Australia has absorbed religous prejudice and moved on, I reject your claims that it says something about me, I am saying the bleeding obvious about what Australians who fear “boat people” are really thinking but not saying.  Born in 1941, I have lived through the huge migration boom of the post war years in suburbs of Melbourne that were packed to the rafters with migrants, and full of predjudice - but not fear.  Go visit the outer working class suburbs of Sydney, Melbourne & Brisbane where their are large migrant communities and you very soon get the message that all is not well.  It is the sleeper or elephant in the room when “boat people” are discussed.

    • Mike T says:

      04:03pm | 10/09/10

      Thats a fair point james, and your 100% correct about the hysteria surronding past groups of imigration. However, you must concede that none of these groups were settling in our fair land in an global environment that we are experiencing today. By such an environment im refering to issues that are happening world wide regarding the muslim community. I am by no means having a go at either muslim or non muslim, but to pretend there is no MASSIVE issues in the world today around this issue is PC crap.

    • Mike Franklin says:

      06:12pm | 10/09/10

      I agree James1. The simple fact that most commentators refer to them as Muslim suggests to me religious bigotry is at play. We refer to Greeks, Italians, Poms, Etc. by the countries they come from, we don’t refer to them as just Christians.

    • Anthony says:

      07:26pm | 11/09/10

      Perhaps Mike, it is not the ethnicity that is the problem, but Islam itself. That is why ‘they’ are referred to as Muslim.

    • Gregg says:

      02:01am | 12/09/10

      Vincent,
      Regardless of whether the people seeking asylum and using people smugglers are muslim or not and many in recent time have come from Sri Lanka and may not be muslim, the whole concept of offshore processing has been making an effort to stem the flow.
      Offshore processing together with the use of TPVs clearly sent a message that using a people smuggler route was not going to get you a permanent life in Australia and numbers reduced dramatically from 2001 to 2008 when the TPVs were revoked.
      The high % of people sent to Nauru that were granted asylum was possibly in part due to what happens on Christmas Island now and that is it is next to impossible to disprove the stories developed.

      The comments made about people being referred to as muslim, I would dispute for they are more often referred to as coming from Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran or Sri Lanka.
      But that said, given the problems that can arise in societies where people of any religious faith develop a lifestyle where their religious beliefs are allowed to affect acceptance of civil law, then certainly that needs to be taken into account in any immigration program.

    • Democrat says:

      01:02pm | 10/09/10

      What a nonsense.  if we want to look at election results and percentages of votes determining mandates let’s look at 1998.  In that election Labor won in excess of 51% of the 2PP vote but didn’t win enough seats to form government.  End of story. The coalition won government because they had the numbers in the Parliament.  That’s the way the system works.  However, if we are going to say you can’t pass your policies through the parliament because you haven’t won a majority of the vote then Howard had no mandate for the GST. To pass it he had to get minor party votes in the senate.  That’s the way the system works.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      02:28pm | 10/09/10

      Howard was the Prime Minster. The Liberal National Coalition was the Government and he went to the polls announcing he would enact a GST.

      Fast forward to now.

      Gillard is the Prime Minister and she went to the polls on a platform of offshore processing of these alleged ‘‘asylum seekers’‘. So, that is what should happen, yes?

    • KH says:

      03:06pm | 10/09/10

      Yes, I’ve heard this ‘majority of votes’ nonsense being dragged out during this saga.  Some people like to conveniently forget that it was the other way around not that long ago!

    • jeffb says:

      04:04pm | 10/09/10

      If the majority of votes voted primarily on the issues of offshore processing of refugees then surely the policy of offshore processing will be able to pass both houses on a conscience vote, all 150 members can vote in a way the represents their seats view on the matter. Its as simple as that.

    • Bob Brown's Disincentive Tax. says:

      03:03pm | 10/09/10

      I wonder how long it will take before the temporarily fooled, under-informed, spur of the moment Green voting children of hard-working hard-saving, taxpaying parents wake up to Bob Brown’s tax plan.  How long before they conclude that Green is actually obscene.
      How long before they turn against the idea that Bob Brown wants to tax to death whatever parents have left over for their kids, so that the fruits of a lifetime of work can be transsferred to slacko entitlement mentality lazy under-achievers. 

      Bob Brown’s death tax - another name for Green Disincentive Tax.

    • jeffb says:

      03:51pm | 10/09/10

      How much do you actually know about this policy? Its hard to understand what your getting worked up about if you had read the fine details.

      It kicks in at 5 million dollars, excludes the family farm, home & small business. How many people do you know with 5 million sitting in the bank?

      Thats the real issue being tackled here, large sums of money sitting in bank accounts collecting dust, trying to get that money active again in the economy at large.

      Is it really that hard to read the Greens policy page?

      It would also do some people alot of good to read this editorial by Bob Brown, http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/editorial/its-the-house-that-determines-who-governs-20100909-15352.html

    • Lee West says:

      05:16pm | 10/09/10

      How long before you realise that the Greens only have 1 vote out of 150 in the House of Reps, and that 1 solitary vote isn’t enough to get anything passed.

      So unless 75 other members also vote for it, it will never eventuate. Do you really think there are 75 other politicians who will vote for it?

      But hey, feel free to keep showing the world how stupid you are.

    • Randal says:

      03:39pm | 10/09/10

      Ah yes the Green future for Australia…

      carbon taxes, higher electricity and gas prices, higher oil prices, higher petrol prices, higher costs of doing business, higher company tax, higher taxes on individuals, death taxes, wealth taxes, no fishing industry, no recreational fishing, no zoo’s, no new mining projects, no forestry industry, legalised marijuana, heroin injecting rooms, open borders for any who want to come, environmental tariffs… and on and on it goes… more taxes less liberties that is the Green mantra…

      What a future we would have in their hands, progressing us to a third world nation!

    • GreenGoblin says:

      06:31pm | 10/09/10

      Yes Randal, scary isn’t it? you missed some…Securing Australia’s water supplies (including protecting the Murray-Darling), Increasing funding for public education, more efficient and accessible health care including Denticare, better funding for mental healthcare, substantial investment in renewable energy, fairer and more humane treatment of refugees, protecting Australia’s high-conservation value, native forests…....

    • jim says:

      03:48pm | 10/09/10

      greens cheer leader deborah cameron??? huh? since when was that?
      I haven’t noticed any preference. She talks to verity firth ad infinitum
      and has never been known to give her a hard time.

    • Duff says:

      03:49pm | 10/09/10

      For all of you who may be confused, here is a handy formula: when the government sides with majority opinion and you agree with them, it is called a “democracy”.  Democracy is good.  When the government goes with the majority opinion but you disagree, they are being “populist”.  Populist is bad.  When the government goes with the minority and you agree, they are being “principled”.  Principled is good.  And when they go with the minority, and you disagree, you ask for another election.

    • Helen says:

      03:49pm | 10/09/10

      From a letter elsewhere in the media today:
      “The facts are that the “right parties” - Liberals/Nationals/WA Nationals - won 73 seats with 43.64 per cent of the primary
      vote. The “left” parties - ALP/Greens - won 73 seats with 49.75 per cent of the primary vote. The two-party preferred vote is so close to 50:50 it doesn’t matter.

      If any party is entitled to feel hard done by it’s the Greens, which with 11.76 per cent of the primary vote get one seat in a 150-seat house. Meanwhile, the Nationals get seven seats with 3.73 per cent of the vote. But the Greens aren’t whingeing because that’s the way the system works.”
      Get it? The Nats won more seats with fewer votes than the Greens did. So if you want to talk about unrepresentative, let’s talk about the Nats before we even bring up the subject of the Greens.

    • yofussn says:

      03:56pm | 10/09/10

      why would anyone wish to come to Aus when our ever higher cost of living continues to spiral through the roof,- smokes, alcohol, electricity, water, rent, home prices, petrol, food, & all this occurring before the planet saving carbon tax,  health reforming end to private health insurance, death duties, higher taxes on our most successfull productive higher earning tax paying miners, closeing down 30% of our waterways to fishing, there is a pertinant saying that iif you dont use it you lose it,  we are going to be taken to task on this by other countries that are of the mind that we are just being too cute by half in pursuing tthis crazy idealogical looney madness,  Aus has one of the worlds largest singular country waterways yet we rank somewhere near 30th as far as fish catches go.  Is it any wonder people are getting progressively aggressively uglier here in the lucky country,  was there anywhere near as much violence on the streets before smart arse dogooders see fit to tax the crap out of all & sundry & use the argument that its all in our collective best interests.  yeah right,  all that happens is the great divide between the haves & have-nots grows ever wider & so creates the ugly thuggish ways of todays youth,  so much so that no-one feels safe walking down the bloody street on their own even in the middle of the day anymore,  never alone catching a bus or train of a night,  just ask the taxi drivers how much sufferance & abuse they have had to cop after alcopops tax was introduced now that the younguns mix their own much stronger drinks & mix that up with speed & whatever else,  your safer in Thailand, & could comfortably live there for 10 years on a years average wages here. what prigs our pollies seem to have become, is it any wonder the populace seems so singular & attack dog minded,  me thinks not,  kids in the playground make more sense.!

    • Clem says:

      04:02pm | 10/09/10

      Not this tired old argument again. The majority of people want capital punishment to be brought back. The majority of people don’t want to pay any taxes. Just because most people think something doesn’t make it right.

    • Philip Crowley says:

      09:51am | 11/09/10

      Oh please Clem!! A Roy Morgan poll on capital punishment in 2009 found 23% of Australians favour capital punishment for murder. That is hardly a majority by any definition (Source: http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2009/4411/) The majority of people have no objection to paying tax, but have major objections to that tax being wasted by government.

      The majority don’t always have it right Clem, but in a democracy the majority rules and that, Sir, makes it right.

    • Paul says:

      04:18pm | 10/09/10

      You (and many others in the media) seem to have some confusion as to how parliament works. Both the Labor party and the Coalition went to the election with a policy of offshore processing of asylum seekers who arrive by boat. These two parties have at least 144 of the 150 votes in the House of Representatives. A similar majority exists in the Senate. If they want to implement this policy the two major parties can negotiate the specifics of the legislation and both vote for it. The Greens votes then become irrelevant.

      The Greens are not going to take over the country. Stop being so scared of ghosts that don’t exist.

    • Z says:

      04:29pm | 10/09/10

      It won’t be until our pot smoking uni tree huggers ‘attempt’ to save for a mortgage that they’ll realise just what damage the greens are capable of.  It’s very easy to run around sprouting the greens while still living at home with their parents.  Just wait until cost of living pressures actually affect them and you’ll hear “I told you so” from their parents.
      Bob Brown made recent comments that the voting age should be lowered to 16.  Doesn’t surprise me as the young and dumb are brainwashed into voting for the greens by the “cool” crowd at uni and they’re the only people who actually understand Bob Brown, the king of the kids.

    • Badger says:

      05:41pm | 10/09/10

      @Mayday,
                      Whats this about First Indiginous one Elected !!
      He is no more indiginous than I am, I am Part Pom ,Part Scott Part Tasmanian. 5th Generation.


      This chap Is Part Indian, Part French,Part English Part Aboriginal,they say, and is as white as I am.
      Why claim to be Indigious, I know you get more in Goverment Perks by calling yourself one, but he is basicaly Indian,Anglo/French/Aboriginal, not sure how much Aboriginal Blood in him though.

      Like Charles Perkins in Tasmania, a Redhead with Blue Eyse. calls himself a Tasmanian Aboriginal !!!

    • Peter says:

      07:04pm | 10/09/10

      Substitute Michael Mansell for Charles Perkins and I think you’ll have it right Badger, although Mansell’s hair is white these days and curiously he is beginning to resemble a member of the Milat family.

    • Badger says:

      01:13pm | 11/09/10

      You are right, Michael Mansell, got them mixed up a bit.
        He is very Grey these days, and thank heavens, a lot quieter now.

    • Against the Man says:

      06:50pm | 10/09/10

      I want the Greens to succeed in their agenda. The Australian people need to pay the price for voting for the ALP/Gillard.  Let democracy teach us all a valuable lesson….................HaHa

    • Lousia says:

      07:17pm | 10/09/10

      Oh Yes, Against the Man, I agree. Let the prices of the utilities all go sky high and watch for the great unwashed and dole bludgers be unable to pay for them.

      Better still let only those who are taxpayers be able to vote. It would be interesting to see who many who voted for Labor are also on the dole.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      08:16pm | 10/09/10

      Yeah, that’s the Liberal Spirit. Australia can go to hell, as long as the people learn that the Liberal Party are their natural masters…..

    • Against the Man says:

      08:02am | 11/09/10

      Thanks for agreeing with me Shane that Australia will go to hell under the ALP/Greens smile

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      07:55pm | 12/09/10

      Don’t know if it will or not but that’s the Liberal Attitude….

    • 6c legs says:

      10:56pm | 10/09/10

      WoW whadda surprise. Chris Gardiner throwing stones at Greenies.

      And just a thought bubble…. Back when this site was being born, and everyone was asked to write down what they thought it should be called, was the name The Kennel one of them?
      It’s just that with all the whisteling to hounds over a large % of articles, i think ya’ll got it’s name wrong.

      Despite Limited News trying it’s hardest, the LNP *didn’t* win a majority, get used to it!
      If nothing else it shows what terrible losers the LNP flunkies are.

    • acotrel says:

      07:39am | 11/09/10

      It’s obvious that it is the birthright of the Liberal Party to rule Australia.  If Tony Abbott ever gets up he should change the electoral laws, so that the Liberal Party always wins? They’re SO DESERVING!

    • Jay says:

      08:38am | 11/09/10

      Pleeease, can somebody tell me who the mystery guy is on the right of Bob Brown, he appears in lots of photos?

    • kim says:

      08:40pm | 11/09/10

      hi JaY, THAT’D be richard di natale, victoria’s first green senator

    • stephen says:

      12:22am | 12/09/10

      The horn-rim glasses ?
      Why, he’s from the Daily Planet, and ‘scooter’ (Bob B.) is gonna save us all.’

    • thatmosis says:

      08:38am | 11/09/10

      Whats all this fuss about the Raving Looney Party,aka The Greens. They are just and abaration that will in the fullness of time be reduced to a single entity by people realising that Green menas higher taxes, less world competitive business and therefore less jobs. This too will pass unless of course the brain dead vote again.

    • mik says:

      10:57am | 11/09/10

      This has always been the Greens paradigm. As a party of the pathetic (and parasitic) bourgeoisie, what else could it be?

    • kim says:

      09:00pm | 11/09/10

      I’ll think you’ll find if you dig below the surface, that the only party close to the bourgeoisie, or lets just use a more-used term, the elite, is the LIBERALS. who else want to privatise as much as they possible - health, infrastructure, private mining and forestry, agriculture etc, etc. If you do the smallest of research you’ll find this is way it works in the world.  if you want the elite to rule, with the trickle down theory that keeps the poor in a stagnant position, vote for the Major Parties. They’re either in bed with Big Buisness, sucking up our natural resources, and sending the profits out of the country, or are in a revolving door with big buisness.
        The Greens, are closer to the working class than any major parties, both from a personal and ideological position.
      Tony Abott, remember, was the pollie who tagged the poor, often poorly educated, for refusing the most dehumanizing of work, as “job snobs”
        In Brown, we have a politician who eschews personal wealth for standing up for the natural world.
      At least in Gillard we have a Prime Minister, who flags her working class credentials. LEts hope she can work with the Greens and the Independants to give a better deal for the majority of Australians.

    • Gregg says:

      12:05pm | 12/09/10

      @ kim,
      bourgoisie is in fact not necessarily a good word to use for the Greens nor is it one that you may want to associate with the elite kim or not at least in the same sentence with the Liberals alone.
      For in terms of privatisation, Labor is not only not beyond that but well to the fore in all matters of provatisation, the NBN being the single largest government/private combo mess ever likely and State governments also using private organisation partnerships, our former taxes that have paid for services in the past rapidly just paying for fat salaries and then we pay fees for services on top.
      On the other hand, if you do some research on small business operation and the hours worked for often pitiful returns and survey their politics, not that they have much time for it you might just find that they do not consider themselves too elite but just damm hard workers.

      On resources and just digging below the surface, you may want to check on how it is done in the world and not just how much of a sponge the world is for resources but how digging them out is also a sponge for capital.
      Yes it takes $$$$ and millions of them to get a resources project up and running, many failing along the way for various reasons and so that money has to be stumped from somewhere and the financial industry globally will always be cognisant of potential for losses and returns on capital for if they have to be cognisant of failure too.
      Part of the risk/returns basket will take into account level of royalties and taxation on profits.
      If the Greens have their way, they would tax businesses out of existance not to disturb the environment and so just how will it help our Australian lifestyle to have valuable material left in the ground?
      As to they being closer to the working clases, what is your evidence?, what background do their reps have?, doctors, lawyers!, very similar no doubt to many liberals and sonme of Labor but perhaos just a different mind set.
      You may not like TA’s pugnacious use of words but at least he is prepared to be up front with the truth and ” was the pollie who tagged the poor, often poorly educated, for refusing the most dehumanizing of work, as “job snobs”  ” could also be said as ” not everyone can be doctors, lawyers, accountants, teachers, engineers etc. and there are jobs about that are very different, often with one degree or another of hard physical effort content that people may well decide to be unemployed rather than be prepared to do for they’ll still be lowly paid and poorer “
      And you think Bob Brown a former Doctor and now a well paid politician for many years understands physical labour and being poor?
      And what working class credentials does Gillard have to flag for she went to University, studied law and has spent a good part of her life either attempting to get elected or being in parliament.
      If she is flagging working class credentials she is doing so very frauduently.
      Labour/Greens will never deliver a better situation for the majority of Australians and that is simply because they just have absolutely zero business acumen - perhaps possibly because many of their MPs come with a union background and it is those that are to the fore with ministerial appointments and so no surprises with not just the recent bungling we have but you go right back to Whitlam/Cairns and petro loans and the huge deficit budgetting of the Hawke/Keating years and now the Krudd/Gillard time and it is just history repeating itself, but now with the Green tinge.
      Ask yourself just how long will you survive financially if you continually spend more than you earn!
      And how many businesses, both small and major go belly up because of their financial situations.
      And then just extrapolate that and you’ll have the likes of Argentina, Greece, Iceland etc.
      We may be in a stronger position than a lot of countries and aside from coming off a surplus situation, one major contributor has been our resources sector and we’re about to kill it off.
      And btw, not all the mining companies profit goes abroad for there is Australian money from financial institutions also tied up in their capital and just like overseas organisations with capital invested in Australia, Australian companies also have overseas investments.
      Without all those investments, nothing much will be done.
      Labor did lose their way with cash handouts and other overspending with insufficient control in place and in it continuing they had to find a taxation income somewhere and so why not all those resources profits, perhaps just another short term solution but it was Paul Keating who once said ” there’s no such thing as a free lunch “
      I pity the believers.

    • marley says:

      02:34pm | 12/09/10

      oh please!  The Greens “closer to the working class?”  Tell that to the working class guys employed in mining, power generation, logging, commercial fishing and the like.  I’ll bet they have a different view.  The Greens are urban left-wing environmentalists, not working-class heroes.  If their interests happen to coincide, fine, but they do not represent the working class and never will.

      As for Gillard, university educated, lawyer, politician - what working class credentials exactly?

      Nothing wrong with supporting the positions of either the Greens or the ALP, but don’t do it because you believe in some false fairy-tale about their close ties to the working man.

    • stephen says:

      10:31pm | 12/09/10

      Well if it’s not a paradigm, it must be a diaspora.
      Well, hopefully.

    • papachango says:

      03:51pm | 13/09/10

      Agree 100% with marley. How anyone can be stupid enough to think the Greens are the party of the working class is beyond me. Unless you suddenly define ‘working class’ as ‘rich inner city trendies who live in Balmain and Fitzroy’.

      Still, if you honetly believe Julia Gillard somehow represents the working class because of her broad accent I suppose you’ll believe anything.

      I find the original comment somewhat amusing. Anyone who uses the word ‘bourgeosie’ in a derogatory sense is probably a far-leftist, so is @mik saying the Greens aren’t communist enough for his liking? Wow.

      I suppose that you could call the Greens a bourgeois party, as bourgeois just means those who own property (hardly the ‘elites’), and many Green voters own nice houses in fashionable inner-city areas. In fact even Adam Bandt, years ago, once described the Greens as a bourgeois party that could be infiltrated by good Marxist-Leninists to further their communist agenda. He refuses to renouce that view today.

      So maybe @mik can take heart - they’re only pretending to be bourgeois until the Revolution comes. Then they’ll voluntarily hanbd over their fashionable inner city pads for the good of the people. Won’t they?

    • Democrat says:

      12:16am | 12/09/10

      Andrew - gross misrepresentation of the facts.  Official figures from the AEC website - feel free to check.  Labor - 37.99% (-5.40%),  Liberal 30.45%(+0.75%), Liberal National Party of Queensland - 9.12% (+0.60%), Nationals - 3.73% (+0.16).  The Liberal Party did not get 43%+ of the vote. The Liberal Party, the National Liberal Party of Queensland and the National Party combined received 43.3% of the vote.  The Labor Party outpolled the Liberal Part by more than 7%.  Furthermore the Greens received 11.76% of the vote which was an increase in their vote of 3.97%.  The overwhelming swing against Labor went to the Greens - not to the coalition.  Like Tony Abbott most Liberals are liberal with the truth - your contribution is a perfect example.

    • marley says:

      02:39pm | 12/09/10

      I don’t reckon that’s a gross misrepresentation at all.  If Andrew has used the term Coalition, rather than Liberals, he would have been spot on.  Sloppy, maybe, but not a misrepresentation of the basic situation.

    • Steely Dan says:

      09:13am | 13/09/10

      I must have been too busy paying attention to the Federal Election (where a multitude of parties debate a multitude of policies) to notice that we had a referendum on offshore asylum seeker processing.

      Representatives should seek to implement the policies that they went to the last election with, Chris.  I don’t think that’s a controversial statement.

    • kim says:

      07:45pm | 14/09/10

      Of course, (Gregg and others above) the Green’s aren’t working class hero’s. And Obviously not bourgeios, or elite either…....perhaps the best you could say they are enemies of the ruling class.  if Murdurch vitriole and shock tactics are anything to go by in recent days…........ The working class vote was a Labour stronghold until Howard came along and fraduantly duped the people into voting for furthering their privitisation policies - gutting public education, health, national infrastructure….what have we got to show for it higher wages but unaffordable first homes, and Australian workers working longer hours than any people in the developing world.

      .In Regards to Policy the Greens, with social policies that are aimed at the everyday persons needs - health, dental care, public transport, and the taxing of the mining and forestry sectors to pave the way for a 21st energy grid are realistically the party with the ideas to keep public services available for all.
        As for the LIBERALs. does anyone realistically think THEY care at all about the working class? (apart from the votes they need to keep them in power) who in the Liberal’s have ever walked even vaguely in the same neighbourhood as the poor and the working classes. Stripping public education to ENFORCE the class systems. Funding Private Hospitals. (both PArties) Propping up the tax scam that is Managed Investment schemes in the plantation industry, paving the way for Dairy farmers to sell up and move on. Huge Subsidies for a forest industry that refuse to believe it’s process is unsustainable, which only serves to put small sawmillers out of buisness, and prop up big buisness like GUNNS, with vasts swathes of timber production they can’t manage, leaving Government Forest in debt crises, and our Forests trashed before they can be vauled as rich carbon sinks in the future carbon economy.
        The Greens, doctors and lawyers? Perhaps yes, but Doctors and lawyers working for working people not for high profits and self interest. You only have to look at the profiles and history of the Greens - Richard Di Natale, Adam Bandt, Christine Milne,  Kim Booth (the only small sawmiller in parliment) to see their standing when it comes to standing for the “common man” (from the english term - the commons). Taking the fight up to the big corporations, who use the contractors as just pawns in their bigger game.
        Mining (75% of the financial benefits going offshore), Fishing (overfishing, to be exact) Logging (96% woodships - the bulk heading for Japan) - Is this the future we want in a 21st Australia?  None of these are sustainable, and the Enviromental Impact on the social and economic body is unknown, and potentially dire. The Greens want to reduce our dependance on resources that will run out in the no to distant future -  Do you think the mining and logging bosses are going to renumerate their workers when “the river runs dry”?
      Yes it take $$$$$$$$ to get the future up and running but what’s the alternative. the past? That’s why a mining tax, and a carbon tax are the only way to kickstart a change in our energy consumption. But for 11 years we had the Liberal party, dismembering the renewable industries, (see Scorcher: the dirty politics of climate change) and passing the money back to mining industries.
        By the way, the Greens base is hardly rich inner city - inner city yes, rich (hardly). And their biggest growth is in rural Australia where the major parties favour mines instead of prime agricultural land - liquidation of land for short term monetary profits
        And the idea that because Gillard trained as a lawyer, any working class heritage is immediately nullified. Yes she is no universal champion of the poor and the working class, but this part of her family heritage. After the push and pull of politics, some of her heritage still remains (unlike the entire liberal party caucus, who still carry this born to rule bravado built up in elite private schools -) 
      But its not what privilidge you were born into, it the mindset, as gregg mentioned that matters - Julian Burnside, born into wealth and prestige is an advocate for Human Rights, has lived his life by his principals, from his family, to his politics and his career.
      You could hardly say that for anyone in the Liberals - Christopher Pynne (working class hero, perhaps?) how about Alexander Downer (a man who know what hard work is surely) Jule Bishop?? Apart from Malcolm Turnball, who in the Liberals are even worthy to serve or to lead their community, let alone the nation?

    • Irene says:

      09:33am | 14/06/11

      Soudns great to me BWTHDIK

 

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