As the National Broadband Network juggernaut rolls on, one has to wonder if any thought has been given to the obvious danger that the NBN may fail. NBN supporters assume that it will succeed. This crash through or crash approach is a very dangerous way to pursue government policy objectives.

I'm going to ride this thing all the way to the nearest dial-up connection. Pic: AP

In this context, failure can mean a number of things. For starters, the NBN could fail financially. This could include construction costs spiralling out of control where, for example, labour and skills shortages drive up project costs.

The NBN Corporate Plan itself reveals that at the height of construction up to 6,000 premises per day will be connected to the NBN. That’s a lot of premises and a lot of skilled labour which means lots of risk to the NBN. Any delay in connecting such a larger number of premises would delay completion of the NBN. Any delay would substantially increase project costs and threaten the financial viability of the NBN.

Another significant risk for the NBN would be a disastrously low take-up rate by consumers concerned that the price of NBN services were simply too high. The NBN is going to be a very expensive project and its costs need to be covered by a sustainable revenue stream. In addition, if the costs of building and running the NBN increase, then that revenue stream would need to increase even more if the NBN is to have any chance of being financial viability.

Increased costs need to be covered by increased revenues and that means higher prices for NBN services. The higher the price for NBN services, the fewer the number of consumers that will be able to afford the NBN services, especially the higher end services. That would reduce the take up rate for NBN services and further reduce the NBN’s ability to make a return for taxpayers who are ultimately funding the NBN project

Since the take up rate of NBN services is critical to the NBN’s success, any adverse impact on the take-up rate will undermine the NBN’s financial viability and could quite easily turn the NBN into a white elephant. Put simply, high prices for NBN services would adversely affect the take-up rate for NBN services. Competition from fast wireless broadband offered by NBN competitors would also adversely affect the take up rate for NBN services.

Competition from fast wireless broadband is a real threat to NBN as the speeds being achieved by wireless technologies are increasing off the back of technical advances. Irrespective of how comparable the speeds of wireless technologies are or will be to NBN in relation to the higher speeds to be offered by the NBN, wireless broadband is currently capable of delivering strong competition to the basic 12 Mbps service to be offered by NBN.

Financial failure is just one possible failure in relation to the NBN. Another failure would be a failure by NBN Co to actually complete the project. There is a real risk that the blowout in construction costs could be so devastating that the project could be shut down early as no Government could politically stand by and indefinitely allow NBN to bleed financially.

All in all, the failure of the NBN remains a real possibility and the consequences of such failure should be considered if for no other reason that it focuses the attention of those involved with delivering the NBN project.

The first consequence of any NBN failure would be that taxpayers would not have received a commercial return for the money the Federal Government poured into the NBN. It needs to be remembered that there is an opportunity cost to using taxpayer money on one project as opposed to another project. By using taxpayer money on the NBN project it’s clear that the money is not being used for other worthwhile projects. If NBN failed financially, then the taxpayer money spent on the NBN would have been used in a less effective manner than it could have otherwise have been used.

As with any infrastructure project that fails financially, any failure of the NBN Co would reduce the financial value of the investment in the project and the value of the NBN Co itself. While a successful project would be able to be sold at a healthy price, a failed project may need to be sold at a much lower price and may even need to be sold a price well below the amount of money actually invested in the project.

The financial value of NBN Co is very important given that the Federal Government proposes to sell the NBN once it’s completed. In the meantime, the financial value of NBN Co throughout the life of the project is also important for the simple reason that taxpayers need to receive value for the money being spent by the Government on the NBN.

Another consequence of the NBN’s failure would be the various casualties of the failure. All those people and organisations that have hitched their bandwagon to the NBN locomotive would be exposed to varying degrees. No doubt heads would roll if NBN failed. The biggest casualty could be the Federal Government itself as it relied on the NBN to secure on a second term.

The next casualty of a failed NBN would likely be Stephen Conroy, the Minister for the project and most vocal cheerleader for the NBN. Conroy’s passionate advocacy of the NBN may be admired by some and questioned by others, but one thing is certain and, that is, if the NBN fails there will be a lot of curly questions for Conroy. Is that fair? Yes, if you believe in ministerial accountability.

Who would buy a failed NBN? The scariest prospect is that Telstra would end up buying the NBN at a fraction of its cost. Wouldn’t it be ironic indeed if Telstra ended up owning NBN, the very entity that the Federal Government and Stephen Conroy have told us would break the longstanding dominance of Telstra?

With the consequences of a failed NBN being so dire, it’s essential that all steps are taken to ensure that taxpayers get real value for money throughout the whole project. One such critical safeguard would be the appointment of an NBN Commissioner, a statutory office holder that would oversee all aspects of the NBN project and act as an independent watchdog.

169 comments

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    • Erick says:

      04:54am | 30/03/11

      I’m guardedly optimistic. The NBN is an effort to spread a technology to workers and lower income people who otherwise wouldn’t be able to afford it. There is historical precedent for the success of such an effort.

      Volkswagen was originally founded in 1937 by the Nazi trade union, the German Labour Front - an organisation similar to our own ACTU, just as the National Socialist Democratic Workers Party itself was analagous to the Australian Labor Party.

      Both parties and their unions were dedicated to bringing modern technology within the reach of the average worker. In the early 1930s German auto industry was still largely composed of luxury models, and the average German rarely could afford anything more than a motorcycle.

      In 1933, Adolf Hitler declared his intentions for a state-sponsored “Volkswagen” program. Hitler required a basic vehicle capable of transporting two adults and three children at 100 km/h. This was to be his transportation solution, equivalent to our own National Broadband Network.

      Despite some problems in the years 1939-45, when at times it seemed the company and its projects might fall by the wayside, the rest is history. Today Volkswagen is the third-largest auto manufacturer in the world, an enduring testimony to the farsightedness of its creators. So too, the NBN will stand as the historic legacy of the Labor Party’s vision of the future.

    • Peter says:

      06:04am | 30/03/11

      Erick,  Only one thing wrong in your calculations, volswagon moves people, NBN is a length of optic fibre to every home doing nothing but lauding the merits of Stephen Conroys secret censorship to anything not lauding the merrits of a Labor Government..

    • Michael says:

      06:57am | 30/03/11

      The only problem is, Erick, that the projections are saying that the NBN will drive costs of broadband UP by 30%. That is, if you have, let’s say, ADSL2 at around 20mb/s now, and it costs you $50 a month, after the NBN, it will cost around $65 for the same thing.

      If the “workers and lower income people who otherwise wouldn’t be able to afford it” cannot afford broadband at $50 a month, how can they suddenly afford it at $65 a month?

      As for the rest of your blog, are you suggesting we have the Nazis build our infrastructure so we know it will work? The Nazis had a habit of shooting people if they failed - which does not seem like such a bad idea, but I think you’d agree it’s a little extreme?

      I think you are REALLY clutching by saying that because Hitler could force people to build a car, conroy (who is so seriously technically inept) could deliver something he really does not even understand.

    • ZSRenn says:

      07:10am | 30/03/11

      Erick I have a couple of things that bother me about the article and your reply.

      The first comes from the article in that it will take 6000 homes/day to be outfitted to be financially viable. This will take some doing. Let’s say 2 hours installation time with 15 minutes travel between jobs. That’s 4 jobs a day roughly / team of 2; 1500 teams or 3000 on the job doing the household installation alone. Running cables digging trenches and making these installations secure is another massive skilled workforce required.

      The 2nd is that I have to invoke Godwin’s law to the first comment of the article. Not just once but twice.

      Thirdly the Volkswagen really did not get up to speeds of 100km’s /hour until 6 decades later when the new version was released and lay idol for 3 decades. Is this a prediction for the future of NBN?

      To those that would label this article as scare mongering. This is a lot of money we are spending and not to have debate on the subject would be foolish at the extreme.

      I can add to the authors list of fears. It has been quoted by supporters of NBN that if it is to be fully operational it will require a major upgrade of our undersea cable network before it reaches its peak proficiency. If we are only able to access Australian sites quickly and not overseas sites how does this affect one of the major reasons for its installation being communication with our trade partners.

      I really do not think Stephen Conroy has much to worry about, after all people died with the pink bats fiasco. The Minister concerned may have lost his job but his doing ok.

    • TimB says:

      07:14am | 30/03/11

      Nice to see you stuck to your promise Erick wink

    • acotrel says:

      08:19am | 30/03/11

      @Michael
      ‘As for the rest of your blog, are you suggesting we have the Nazis build our infrastructure so we know it will work? The Nazis had a habit of shooting people if they failed - which does not seem like such a bad idea, but I think you’d agree it’s a little extreme?’

      Are you talking about Workchoices#2 ?

    • Phil says:

      08:23am | 30/03/11

      Regardless of anyones opinion of the article or Ericks reply, as an obvious conservative puncher, it shows his unbiased attitude towards various issues and agree or disagree one must applaud this. I doubt Acotrel or TC could do the same.

    • Rosie says:

      09:24am | 30/03/11

      I am with you Erick - guardly optismistic in case this incomptent Govt is lucky to pull off this amazing very very expensive technology! “Luck” is the word here!

      It would also be irresponsible of the Opposition and smart Australians not to have the prudence to take into account the wastage and wreckless spending of our money by this Govt.

    • Danny B says:

      09:31am | 30/03/11

      I don’t think we can call Godwin’s on this one.  Erick is making a historical comparison to 1930s Germany, not calling someone a Naze because they disagree with them.

    • Ironside says:

      09:52am | 30/03/11

      Cheers Erik smile

    • john says:

      10:18am | 30/03/11

      @Erik, The NBN is doomed to become a white elephant because it has become like 1945 technology in 2011.

      Gillard, Rudd just can’t see it either because they don’t understand this because the are out of date too. 

      For example they announced they were going to give every child a laptop, what a joke, laptops are yesterdays technology when they announced it.

      The funniest part I think it will cost Australians 46 Billion dollars for them to see that. Kill whats left of the Australian economy by digging cable trenches and bury the money, nice strategy labor.

      like everything else:

      Pink Batts         FAIL
      Carbon tax         FAIL
      Cash splash     FAIL
      mining tax         FAIL
      Laptops           FAIL
      NBN                 FAIL
      govt DEBT         FAIL
      boat people       FAIL
      rusty navy           FAIL
      kevin 747           FAIL
      murry basin       FAIL

      Is this government as bad as NSW labor?

    • TheRealDave says:

      10:33am | 30/03/11

      @John

      As soon as I see someone type in the words ‘Obsolete’ or words to that effect I know 100% for sure the person posting that twaddle knows absolutely nothing about the technology involved or indeed anything about the fibre backed NBN.

      Maybe you should do some research to gain a bit of actual knowledge on the subject before accusing others of failing to do the same huh?

    • PTom says:

      10:43am | 30/03/11

      @John.
      Where is the NBN costing in the Budget?
      Laptops yesterday technology, so why then does Apple still sell iMacs.
      The ipad came out about last year while the laptop program is almost complete.

      Did we go into recession? NO guess the $900 worked.
      I get it you must be upset you did not get you laptop or $900?

      Rusted navy, with helicopter that can’t fly at night or over open seas and the Murray Basin whereHowards plan.

    • john says:

      10:43am | 30/03/11

      @TheRealDave Egg on your face, former IT director -sweetheart.

      The oppositions hybrid policy is more efficient.

      I’m here to help IT illiterates like yourself to understand what a great big shiny NBN is ! A waste of money!

    • AdamC says:

      10:46am | 30/03/11

      The problem with Erick’s analogy is that Volkswagen, as a manufacturer, is easily able to create new models and update existing ones as technologies change. The NBN, by contrast, is a fixed piece of infrastructure. Once it is built and the capital is expended, we are stuck with it.

      The risk to us is that the NBN will rapidly become redundant as it is superseded by newer, cheaper technologies. The NBN cannot simply market a new model of itself every four years to remain competitive like an automotive manufacturer can.

    • Big Bad Brother says:

      11:10am | 30/03/11

      Hey John
      egg on your face, I invented the internet and have 12 degrees in various engineering disciplines.
      You have no idea about technology. The only IT director job you’ll ever have is Insolent Toadstool director.

      See how easy it is to get those credentials for you online persona?

    • TheRealDave says:

      11:12am | 30/03/11

      @Adam

      Can you please point out what technology is on the market now, or will be invented that can outperform fibre?

      I’d love to hear it. Considering the latest and greatest wireless technology just off the shelf which in a controlled lab 1m apart gives 100mb but in real world rollouts only actually gives 1-5mb dependant on a lot of caveats yet fibre is currently doing 10GbE in most large corporates/government/education etc and currently provides the bandwidth for entire continents on a daily basis with more and more being added.

      And no, it can’t be technology from Star Trek

      So please, if Fibre is to be made obsolete in a couple of years show us what by.

    • TheRealDave says:

      11:15am | 30/03/11

      I call bollocks John. More likely you picked up a PC User Magazine a few years ago.

      Again, I throw out the challenge like I throw it out to other clowns who spout bollocks, please show my what technology that is out there right now, or will be ‘soon’ that can take on and beat fibre. Come on Mr former IT Director.

      I dare you to say Wireless wink

    • Rosie says:

      11:32am | 30/03/11

      @ John

      This Rudd/Labor Govt is a waste of time, energy and money as nothing has been achieved since they came into power. We have had to wait and hope that the decisions they make will benefit the people of this country! Oooooooops “sorry” to our Aborigines and the gap between us and them have not grown closer, if anything wider!

      Today it was told to us of another 2 FAILURES! Oprah’s visit was to be a great success story for our tourist industry. Now we hear Oprah wasn’t impressed, saying it was too hot, too many flies, felt alone and made a joke of our PM’s surname. Gillaaard Gillaaaard think Laaard!

      Australia was also snubbed by East Timor in favour of a Pacific Dictator Frank Bainimarama!

      “In a snub to Australia, East Timor Foreign Minister Zacarias da Costa has travelled to Fiji where he will be observer @ meetings of the breakaway Melanesian Spearhead Group chaired by none other than Frank Bainimarama.

      How dare small fry East Timor stand up our Foreign Minister “I am Kevin Rudd” and lap dog Chris Bowen when we want to discuss the Lying Juliar Gillard’s East Timor solution at the meeting in Bali?

    • Joan says:

      11:50am | 30/03/11

      NBN for workers and low income workers???? Are you talking about Australia or China? Workers and low income already have access to net in Australia…. guess you must be talking about China. Workers and low income people have a tight budget be it ADSL, cable or NBN ... they can only pay as much as they can afford or want to pay.  Our local library net computers are in full use day after day for those not willing to invest in a home computer, home net. Erik maybe you know something I don’t perhaps Gillard plans to hand out new computer with each NBN connection and one year free access downloads.  NBN comes at cost to create a monoply,  the real winner is Telstra who will receive billions for their rotting copper lines that they have failed to maintain. Gillard could have had NBN without spending billions on rotting copper. Telstra must be laughing, can’t believe their good luck.  Gillard same as rorts in BER starts NBN with billions of dollars waste to Telstra. Erik while you want to go back to 1930s German style of governance ..... Commrade Gillard. harks to the commie line….  in 2011 Australia deserves better than either choice offered

    • AdamC says:

      12:16pm | 30/03/11

      RealDave, redundancy and obsolescence are different things. And your comments about optical fibre is strawman stuff. I don’t doubt that we will continue to use fibre for many applications in the decades to come (as we, indeed, already do sans NBN). The issue is whether a network based on FTTP is an appropriate model given consumers’ already well-established preference for portability.

      It is not that the NBN will cease to function, the risk is that it will become irrelevant.

    • john says:

      12:21pm | 30/03/11

      @TheRealDave Anyone that pushes the NBN wheelbarrow shows their ineptness.
      Fibre technology is only useful in transporting information at high speed however the end user only has PC technology with basic internal ethernet cabling infrastructure. In effect that’s akin to a mag lev train traveling 500k/hr with 1,000’s of passengers, only to slow to a speed of a suburban Sydney train on old iron tracks, then slow further to a old Melbourne tram track speed to run a clunky old tram. POINTLESS.

      NBN is only useful for inter-connectivity between datacentres, intercontinental fiber pipes and capital CBD’s Some of those datacenters are obselete and do not have internal fiber cabling most have Ethernet cable infrastructure. 

      Again I really believe that the oppositions hybrid solution is better, wireless believe it or not, my prediction is will fall behind.

      At the moment we have enough fibre and technology that works well with fibre.

      I would only support a NBN if the government was to upgrade every data center to fibre, and every computer was designed and cabled for fibre…..we are about 50-100 years too early for this.

      To do this, has Labor got ~ 100 to 150 billion dollars? No I didn’t think so.

      My guess the reason for all this stupidity over NBN is that gen X & baby boomers don’t really know what its all about, and gen Y are tugging on their parents coattails thinking they can play better games with NBN connectivity.

      I say again the coalition’s HYBRID solution is the right sensible one, they are not totally against the NBN. They just believe that the technology upgrade should be across different platforms in a hybrid solution.

      I’m am quite happy to educate you further over a cuppa coffee, if you shout.

    • john says:

      12:24pm | 30/03/11

      @Big Bad Brother you sound like a bitter labor politician.

      All I can say is NSW labor, you can read into the rest.

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      12:29pm | 30/03/11

      @TheRealDave

      I don’t see it being a question of which technology ‘beats’ another technology, it reallly comes down to what people want in the future. My (admittedly anecdotal) view is that teens currently have access to both wireless for their iphone/ipad and direct broadband often paid for by the parents.

      The crunch will come when these teens start paying the bills and have to decide between one or the other. In my experience, wireless being portable, is the option that is chosen - even if it’s slower.

    • PTom says:

      01:10pm | 30/03/11

      @John,
      Your bottle neck analogy is wrong.
      NBN would be more like catching express train to individual station (homes) then get off to catch a individual bus or taxi (Cable router or Wireless Router).  Hybrid would delivery almost nothing to the end user as it only fixes some backhaul problems.

      My prefer analogy is current copper we get pizza delivered by pushbike that can only carry 2 pizzas and a coke. NBN would be using a car to delivery 2 pizzas and a coke but allows for a lot more to be carried.
      How fast you consume the pizzas is up to you. BTW current wireless would be like using a skateboard.


      P.S. I am Gen X and know the reason.

    • cornflake IT says:

      01:26pm | 30/03/11

      John - did you get your IT quals out of a wheeties box?

      The average switch and router speeds used in homes are 100Mbit, with a 1 Gbit becoming the norm for wired networkds. If you use wireless it is 54Mbit for g or 108Mbit for n.

      The speeds proposed are guarenteed 12Mbit and just before the election they told everyone they are going for 100Mbit.

    • TheRealDave says:

      02:28pm | 30/03/11

      @John ahh I can see now why you have the ‘former’ qualifier

      The funny thing is, I know plenty of ‘former’ IT Directors that used such bad analogies as legitimate advice to actual decision makers over the years…probably the same clowns that advise Telstra execs that getting RIMs was a brilliant idea….

    • TheRealDave says:

      02:41pm | 30/03/11

      @LikesjoiningDOts

      I am not against wireless. Not for a second. I am against wireless begin in any way shape or form part of a permanent ‘backbone or backhaul’ if you will (lets keep it simple so the non-technical people can keep up). and that includes running into each house/business.

      Sales in Pads/Slates/Portable Computing/Smarter Phones etc is only going to continue to explode in the years to come. No-one is arguing about that. Mobile computing is going to need mobile broadband. But what does that Mobile Broadband plug into?

      Thats where the issue gets deliberately confused. Mobile Broadband is not a backbone/backhaul solution. Its a consumer endpoint for mobility. Mobility. Mobile devices don’t need the broadband capacity of your average consumer household. I use my Galaxy Tab (until I can get a decent Windows based pad in Oz) all the time when I am out and about. I find it very handy to log onto servers and PC’s remotely etc as well as all the entertainment stuff…but I am not going to sell off my desktop PC’s and servers now am I? Nor am I going to download 3 gig of movies while I am walking aroudn the city. I have my home connection for that wink I can however stream the several TB I do have via the internet to my Tab, albeit in low quality with frequent drop outs…..I look forward to being able to stream in HD quality with perfect reception…one day…... Horses for courses and all that.

      Running Fibre into each and every house and business in the country, were appropriate, is the only solution for the amount of data, voice, video etc capacity we need not only now but for decades into the future. Wireless cannot, and will not ever be able to keep up. Its fantastic as a convenience when out and about but thats about it. If we do it now it costs us, whats the figure $38 billion? If we do it in 10-20 years, and we will have to do it eventually make no bones about it…what will be the cost then??

    • Gregg says:

      02:53pm | 30/03/11

      @Erick,
      You are good for a chuckle occasionally, like what are you guarding your optimism from?

      And then to go comparing Australian telecommunications of the twenty first century to pre WW2 vehicles for the people would have to me one the most outlandish statements ever, though there is a kind of reverse parallel!

      Like Adolf, Ferdinand Porsche and others of the Reich did struck it lucky third time around and see that the beetle was about right for the masses when WW1 and the great depression had not left them with too much.

      But now we have our own dictatorship and perhaps just enough of it to give us the depression we have to have along with harder times when there’re already masses doing it pretty tough.
      Hopefully with the wisdom of someone, Telstra will not actually be hauling out all the copper cabling and will just be doing disconnections so at some sensible time in the future people can be re-connected to just basic services they might be after.

      The beetle in one form or another has been in service for many decades just like our copper and likewise there has been much development of both but has Conroy, NBN or Telstra yet had the balls to really explain to the public what is meant by withdrawal of copper services.

      Even with the beetle there have been many options available and buying a beetle was optional.

      Where has our democracy gone!

    • john says:

      03:28pm | 30/03/11

      @cornflake IT ” did you get your IT quals out of a wheeties box “

      Looks like you have though, if you can’t understand what I have been writing about.

    • john says:

      03:35pm | 30/03/11

      @TheRealDave, after reading your replies you sound like a real amateur, not even sure why you even bother commenting when it only makes sense in your own mind.

      When some one says “The funny thing is, I know plenty of ‘former’ IT Directors” ...you know they are full of it, a dead give away.

      You know the liberals hybrid solution is the correct one given the verbose replies you have given in regards to wireless. Otherwise your comments are hypocritical.

    • john says:

      03:39pm | 30/03/11

      @PTom
      “@John,
      Your bottle neck analogy is wrong.”

      If you have had experience in wiring up datacenters/racks etc and installed industrial scale commuting systems you will look stupid making that statement.

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      04:11pm | 30/03/11

      @TheRealDave

      I get what you are saying and you’re fortunate to have the best of both worlds right now.  However, if cash was tight and you had to choose just one for the next ten years, what would you choose - 3 gig movie downloads on the landline or wireless portability?

    • PTom says:

      05:01pm | 30/03/11

      @John,

      I have been involved in building Data Centres and maintain both a domestic and international communication network that went from 300 bps anagloue to 64+Mbits digital where time critical is important.

      So I do have experience of where bottlenecks occur and what can be done to fix them.

      All deliveries have bottleneck for Data thru put, Speed and User connection.
      When Dialup first start it was the number of user bottleneck, PC could handle.
      Then when dialup was more common speed bottleneck was the issue , because PC had gotten better.
      When Cable and ASDL starting to replace dial-up, ISP put Data limit to slow data thru put from overseas, PC could handle after upgrades and are now better.
      Now you want us to contuine using Speed and User bottleneck on ASDL2, Wireless and HCFC with PC currently ahead.
      All because you say that the cable/wireless connection between the Router and the PC will be to slow. Well guess what you may need to buy a new router.

      As for internation bottlenecks when OTC ran individual lines for voice converstation on copper lines you had bottlenecks. Telstra then ran thousand of voice and data thru packet networks over the same cooper and now Telstra runs Hunderds of thousand voice of thru packet network over fibre. International Bottleneck are getting smaller.

      BTW did Howard tell you need to buy a NEW TV, NEW Radio or a Set-Top box before he decide to switch to Digital Signal?

    • acotrel says:

      07:02pm | 30/03/11

      With a little bit of imagination we could have interactive university lectures over the web, run in similar format to the ABCs Q&A!  What would that mean for the future of Australia?

    • acotrel says:

      07:06pm | 30/03/11

      @Phil
      ‘Regardless of anyones opinion of the article or Ericks reply, as an obvious conservative puncher, it shows his unbiased attitude towards various issues and agree or disagree one must applaud this.’
      Erick probably doesn’t believe women are capable of accessing the internet ?

    • acotrel says:

      07:10pm | 30/03/11

      @John
      ‘Is this government as bad as NSW labor?’

      Of course they are.  Who’d everbelieve they have the future of Australia in mind?  Not like the Liberal Party which has hardly ever initiated a major infrastructure project!

    • acotrel says:

      07:18pm | 30/03/11

      @Rosie
      ‘Australia was also snubbed by East Timor in favour of a Pacific Dictator Frank Bainimarama!’ 
      The Alp would never be stupid enough to return to Nauru.  It’s a time bomb ticking.  Particularly after the High Court decared John Howard’s denial of asylum seekers access to the courts thru habeas corpus, ILLEGAL!  John Howard can never be vindicated.  His actions were a national DISGRACE!

    • john says:

      11:24pm | 30/03/11

      @acotrel “Not like the Liberal Party which has hardly ever initiated a major infrastructure project! “

      Someone knows jackshit about Australian history.

      Sydney harbor bridge, snowy scheme, liberal’s menzies did most of it, labor had a go with whitlam and got snuffed in ‘75, fraser gave us new parliament house, and most of modern canberra.

      Until hawke/keating…what significant infrastructure did they build?

      Just alot of hotair, they can’t run a chicken coup without f*^king it up.

    • mahhrat says:

      05:22am | 30/03/11

      I’m sorry, but this article is disgraceful. Not a thing to do but fear failure, so let’s not bother? Yes, its a risk, but unCtion is a bigger one.

      The nbn has the potential to create opportunity to change how we do anything. My parents, floating around 60 yrs each, got it switched on & are using it to run an online business, impossible without the nbn.

      Dream big, kids.

    • Aitch B says:

      06:28am | 30/03/11

      @mahrat

      How can they be running a business which you say is impossible without the NBN when the NBN isn’t up and running yet?

      And how is is that tens of thousands of businesses are running online when (as you say) it’s impossible without the NBN?

    • TimB says:

      07:17am | 30/03/11

      This is the argument I don’t understand.

      It doesn’t take huge amounts of bandwith to run an online business. We’ve been doing so for years without the NBN. I hardly see why it’s so necessary for commerce now.

    • Charles says:

      07:58am | 30/03/11

      This is a fairly shallow analysis.  There is already a lot of business run on the internet (I run one myself), with the current available services and many in exclusively rural areas.  Providing faster and more widespread internet won’t necessarily improve it.

      In fact, if you wanted to grow your business via the internet you would start working on the mobile access market where you can reach all people all of the time, not just when they are at home hooked up to their fibre optic cable.

      Frank is right, the NBN has the potential to become an orphaned asset and end up being another dead albatross around the neck of the Australian tax-payer.

    • iansand says:

      08:28am | 30/03/11

      TimB - Where is your business?  The NBN is not about the big cities.  Hence “National”.

    • Chris L says:

      09:22am | 30/03/11

      “Providing faster and more widespread internet won’t necessarily improve it” - I tend to think that being faster and more widespead counts as an improvement Charles.

      The problem is that people do not yet fully comprehend the utility of the NBN, and we probably won’t until we start using it and people start coming up with ideas. After all, I doubt the creators of the original internet were thinking about business web pages, online banking or video conferencing at the time, these things were envisioned later as people explored what they could do with the technology.

      I’m with Erick on this one.

    • TimB says:

      09:48am | 30/03/11

      Iansand when I say “we” I mean we as in Australia.

      My point stands. NBN super speeds are not needed just to run an online business.

    • iansand says:

      10:08am | 30/03/11

      TimB - Do you really, truly think that running a business on dial up (what a lot of the bush has) is possible?  Maybe, just maybe, an Ebay based business but video conferencing and exchanging large documents in real time (things I do frequently in the city) - no way on Earth.  Even Skype is ruled out.  All your comment does is demonstrate that you have no grasp of the possibilities of a fast connection or the limitation of connections outside the big cities.

    • TimB says:

      10:31am | 30/03/11

      Ahuh iansand.

      So by way of analogy, your argument is that the only way to bring bush roads up to scratch with city roads, is to build a 6 lane highway running past everyone’s doorstep. Including all the city people who were travelling just fine on their standard city roads.

      Gotcha.

    • TheRealDave says:

      10:36am | 30/03/11

      @TimB if you can’t see how the NBN is going to affect business in day to day work then its clear you don’t work in a big business or need to support their ever growing needs. I do. And I am salivating over what I am going to be able to do. Its going to make my job so much easier and deliver real results to all those I support.

      And means a LOT less whinging from them wink

      Plus, I have a few ideas on the backburner that I am mulling over for other opportunities I can already forsee could be big that aren’t IT related.

    • iansand says:

      11:12am | 30/03/11

      So, TimB, you’re all right, and the hell with anyone else.

      I knew I made a mistake reading something you posted.

    • The Badger says:

      11:13am | 30/03/11

      timmie
      You are the epitome of the saying
      “It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them.”
      Stick to the things that you do best. Whatever they are. I’m sure we don’t see your best work on The Punch.

    • Gregg says:

      11:23am | 30/03/11

      It is interesting to see the likes of the Ians and Daves talk up Gillard and Conroy like on just how much they will be able to do in a business with NBN.
      Like ” exchanging large documents in real time ” and so whether that large document may be a contract or whatever, documents still have to read by the appropriate people for the appropriate decisions to be made and signed off on and all the NBN speed on the planet will not affect how fast that can be done.

      Daily work lives and activities of individuals and companies are much motre than just how fast a document can be transmitted.

    • Gregg says:

      11:26am | 30/03/11

      @HB,
      You smell mahh rug rat there too did you!

    • TimB says:

      12:10pm | 30/03/11

      I agree agree Gregg.

      This entire argument smells suspiciously like the “paperless office” concept that was bandied around years ago.

      And here I am printing off more paper than ever before. Why? Because everyone is demanding hard copies of everything signed and filed in triplicate. Redundancy plus. No matter that the same information can be gained from a simple a simple database search.

      No internet speed on the planet has the power to speed up the operations of a determined bureaucracy.

      No iansand, *we’re* alright. No need to waste billions on something that isn’t a necessity.

      @ Badger- Just what the hell is it you do?

    • iansand says:

      12:57pm | 30/03/11

      OK Gregg and TimB - I failed to appreciate the depths of your ignorance.  The document is in a thing we old fogies call the cloud.  People from China, and the US and Australia (in my typical case) can discuss this document and amend it, and discuss the amendments, on their desktop machine, instantaneously.  So instead of flicking electronic copies back and forth, with someone reading them, digesting the changes then exchanging emails or phone calls to discuss those changes (and with multi-party documents doing this through several iterations) it happens in one session. 

      As someone old enough to be able to remember the effect that faxes had on business, I can assure you that it is a pretty amazing development.  Perhaps if you had a fast connection you can join in?

    • Gregg says:

      02:20pm | 30/03/11

      @ Ian,
      ” The document is in a thing we old fogies call the cloud.  People from China, and the US and Australia (in my typical case) can discuss this document and amend it, and discuss the amendments, on their desktop machine, instantaneously.  So instead of flicking electronic copies back and forth, with someone reading them, digesting the changes then exchanging emails or phone calls to discuss those changes (and with multi-party documents doing this through several iterations) it happens in one session.  “

      A cloud with a silver lining you reckon Ian or possibly a big black cloud.

      First of all, if you have a document up on a shared network, maybe a ” wikiment cloud we could call it ” people still need the time to make and digest changes, make comment and counter changes etc. and you do not need the speed of light for that.

      If you have documents of any real value and meaning, you do not want to rush due dilgence either and see further wealth spread via poor decision making, Airlines and Telcos, not to mention Banks, Insurance companies, media and resources interests all having been prominent in international financial debacles.

    • TheRealDave says:

      02:48pm | 30/03/11

      @Gregg, are you kidding me? No seriously. You are arguing against the biggest communications infrastructure project in this countries history, worth of $40 billion dollars, and you are going with ‘it takes time for people to read a document’. So many things you could bring up and make salient points either for or against but you went with that?

      Jeez, and I thought clowns talking about Star Trek-esque Wireless was the worst I could have to counter. At least those people realise that there is some technology involved in the discussion.

      *sheesh*

    • iansand says:

      03:44pm | 30/03/11

      Gregg - Try it once.  You will be hooked.

    • acotrel says:

      05:23am | 30/03/11

      There are risks in any project which must be managed.  But to base scaremongering on them is irresponsible! If you try really hard we’ll all stay in bed in a virtually risk free environment, and DO NOTHING. That is the ethos of the Liberal Party?

    • jb says:

      06:38am | 30/03/11

      Oh really and do you care to mention the surplus that managed to dig your mugged and the red headed mugger out of the hole they were desperately digging for themselves.
      Harbour Bridge is certainly pretty and last time I checked the snowy scheme screwed an entire river and farming base, nice and green that one buddy!
      Just because you say it doesn’t make it real.
      You are clearly a little man with little substance and it saddens me you have such a one eyed view as to give credit to lies that will affect all but those on welfare.
      Is this seriously a voter base that leaders want to court?

    • Michael says:

      07:08am | 30/03/11

      Oh for f#@k’$ sake! The sensible way - not just the Liberal way - would be to assess the risk openly and to make an INFORMED descision. labor are refusing to release any details of risk analysis, cost/benefit analysis or anything much else. In fact, they have set up a seperate company so that all such detail can be kept completely secret.

      NOBODY sane would start a business without looking at risks and costs - yet that’s exactly what the government is doing with the NBN.

      I’m going to go right out on a limb here and suggest you would not buy a new car without seeing it or driving it or reading reviews first. labor are doing exactly that. Hell, conroy has not even asked the obvious questions like “how much does it cost?” or “what does it do better than than what I already have?”

      The NBN might just be the best thing ever to be though of by anyone. Ever. The only criticism is that labor are charging into the BIGGEST project EVER undertaken in Australia without even doing a bit of basic research or telling us how much of our money it MIGHT cost or why we would even want it!

    • TimB says:

      07:19am | 30/03/11

      “There are risks in any project which must be managed.  But to base scaremongering on them is irresponsible! “

      Really? Explain to me why this hasn’t stopped you from using “risk” as your basis for scaremongering on the nuclear power issue then?

    • acotrel says:

      07:47am | 30/03/11

      @jb Name the major projects that Liberal Party politicians have INITIATED! John Howard takes credit for ......?

    • ian m says:

      07:50am | 30/03/11

      The NBN now has full protection from any investigation by the ACCC, Its been protected from freedom of info queries its been given the green light to retail to large organisations just to attempt to make a return on funds. i suspect this is going to be a marker for our government and yes a very negative one and with with the switching to wireless of large numbers of internet users makes the likely hood of sucess minimal. The UK and the USA are focussing on wireless over fixed line for future upgrades of thier systems using the old analogue tv bands.

    • acotrel says:

      08:09am | 30/03/11

      @TimB There is a multiple quantum leap between the risks associated with nuclear power generation, and those of the NBN!

    • PTom says:

      10:31am | 30/03/11

      @TimB. So what are the risk if the Nuclear power company goes broke? That never gets talked about and what about the risk if the waste storage company goes broke.

      @ian m. Just because the US and UK do something does not make it right or risk free. Like how many users per tower? What speed? What happens if the Wireless company goes broke?

    • TimB says:

      12:27pm | 30/03/11

      Sounds like you’re making excuses for your hypocricy Acotrel. With effort nuclear risks can be very effectively managed. Just because your two bit outfit isn’t up to it, it doesn’t mean others aren’t.

      @ PTom what if Australia goes broke? What if a meteor crashes into the planet tomorrow? What’s the point of living at all?

      Honestly. Risk vs Reward, it’s not that hard a concept.

    • acotrel says:

      05:26am | 30/03/11

      Henry Bolte, when Premier of Victoria, built the Cardina Dam!  Can you name any more major infrastructure projects the Liberal Party has initiated? The record speaks for itself?

    • acotrel says:

      05:33am | 30/03/11

      The Australian Labor Party: :
      1 Sydney Harbour Bridge
      2 Snowy Hydro Scheme

      Liberal Party:
      NIL !

      Who has the runs on the board?

    • Kevin says:

      07:04am | 30/03/11

      In fairness, the Adelaide to Darwin railway was commenced with conservatives in power in SA, NT and federally.

    • acotrel says:

      08:17am | 30/03/11

      @Kevin One for the conservatives ! !  Wasn’t half the system already there, and the need for the extension from Alice to Darwin glaringly obvious, and a public disgrace? What took you so long? It could have been done with great benefit, under Menzies if he hadn’t been sitting on his hands? We’d just come thru WW2, and sent numerous convoys of soldiers and armaments to NE OZ.  The defence implications must have been obvious? The rest of the world was rebuilding, and what did Menzies do?  Well, he was in government when the Snowy Scheme was completed and claimed a bit of the kudos! - OPPORTUNITY LOST!!

    • Trebby says:

      08:29am | 30/03/11

      Hi Kevin,

      The Adelaide to Darwin railway is the ultimate white elephant

    • iansand says:

      08:30am | 30/03/11

      Kevin - No wonder they are frightened of big infrastructure projects, given the success of the only one they initiated.

    • Kevin says:

      09:50am | 30/03/11

      Sheesh!  The first time I post anything favourable to the conservative side of politics and I get shot down in flames.
      As a historical footnote, when SA ceded the NT to the Commonwealth in 1911, one of the conditions was that the Cth would build the railway.

    • John A Neve says:

      10:53am | 30/03/11

      Kevin,

      Acotrel is talking parties, you are talking ideologies! There is a difference you know.

    • john says:

      12:56pm | 30/03/11

      acotrel says:

      The Australian Labor Party: :
      1 Sydney Harbour Bridge - STILL paying for it after 80+years.
      2 Snowy Hydro Scheme   - Sir Robert Gordon Menzies {liberal}

      actrel, wake up smell the roses.

    • persephone says:

      05:51am | 30/03/11

      1. Low take up: doesn’t seem to be a worry so far, with take ups at least equalling expectations.

      2. Competition from wireless: well, firstly, it would be nice if you were factual.

      93% of Australians will receive speeds of 100 mbps. It’s only those on wireless or satellite who might be at 12.

      And you can’t seriously say that anyone’s going to invest in the infrastructure needed to provide wireless when the premises has a cable running past the door which provides a far superior product.

      3. Fear of failure. Which is all it is. You don’t actually provide reasons why it should fail.

      In Tasmania, the NBN roll out was on time and on budget. There’s no reason to believe that future roll outs won’t improve on that.

      This article is an incredible beat up, with no real substantive argument behind it.

      Using this level of argument as justification for something not happening would mean that no one anywhere in Australia would build any infrastructure ever again.

    • Joel B1 says:

      07:22am | 30/03/11

      “In Tasmania, the NBN roll out was on time and on budget.”

      Big deal! The take-up was 11%. On that score alone the NBN fails. And it’s only in about three small towns! There is no “Tasmania NBN rollout”.

      Talk about hyperbole.

      The problem was that Gillrudd played politics and set it up in marginal seats. And quite rightly people said “what’s in it for me?” HD Movies?, TV? Online Medicals Service? And the answer was NO! and I’ve got satellite TV. (don’t bother countering with some crappy Telstra TV or movies online, it’s shit)

      The local people say that it would have been much smarter to start in a major centre and get some runs on the board. But let’s face, Gillrudd just isn’t that smart.

    • fred says:

      07:54am | 30/03/11

      9 percent take up in tassie plus 5 mbs will allow you to watch a movie

    • Jacob says:

      08:34am | 30/03/11

      Joel. you do relies that allot of people in TAS still have a contract that has to expire with their current provider.

    • Joel B1 says:

      08:56am | 30/03/11

      @ Jacob,

      That’s hardly a factor. Here’s the data on NBN laid to the house, that’s not necessarily a NBN connection, just the fibre put in.

      “The state government says so far 50 per cent of property owners in the first three towns to be connected to the NBN have agreed to allow fibre optic cable to be taken to their homes.”

      and here’s the take-up data;

      “Tasmanian government projections during the development of the state’s NBN plan were that only 16 per cent of people would take up a connection to the network, even after 15 years.”

      and from the NBN juggernaut:

      “Tasmanian NBN Co chief Doug Campbell expects a penetration rate of less than 30 per cent in the early years.”

      and,

      “NBN Co will only say that “several hundred” of these have subscribed to an internet service via the network.”

      Hardly a great success is it. Typical Gillrudd performance. All talk and a staggering lack of business skill or indeed just plain common sense.

    • Sherlock says:

      09:03am | 30/03/11

      persephone says: And you can’t seriously say that anyone’s going to invest in the infrastructure needed to provide wireless when the premises has a cable running past the door which provides a far superior product

      Can’t wait for the NBN. Want that fixed cable so I can connect up my smart phone, laptop, Ipad and any other mobile device.

      Oh! Hang on a sec…....

    • Just a fact says:

      09:06am | 30/03/11

      Take up in Armidale - 90%
      suck on that pilgrims

    • TheRealDave says:

      10:44am | 30/03/11

      @persephone

      If I may point out, your statement “93% of Australians will receive speeds of 100 mbps. It’s only those on wireless or satellite who might be at 12. “

      I need to remind you and everyone else reading: 100Mb is the START point of what that fibre can do/is doing. That same Fibre running past your house is quote capable of delivering 10 000 Mb, as it does in corporate networks right now and has the capability to go even faster into the future. Without any need to do anythign to that fibre. Its all software and hardware changes in the exchanges over the next few decades.

      There is absolutely nothing to stop them from giving you 1000Mb as soon as the capable comes into your house in the next 8 years.

      And yet, I still here people bleating on about Wireless? The new ‘next gen’ systems of which are only giving 5Mb in real world deployments all over the globe and only in very short ranges and dependant on numbers of users, atmospherics, interference, radiation etc

      I just don’t get how stupid large segments of the population can be sometimes, I really don’t. Its like they are standing up and yelling ‘No! I don’t want 1gb internet into my house! I want a sometimes available 1-5mb connection for the same prices and damn you if you won’t give it to me!!’

      I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the majority of the so called anti-NBN people would change their tune tomorrow if the Libs turned around and said ‘Hey, elect us and we will give you the same thing’.

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      10:54am | 30/03/11

      Sherlock

      You old dinosaur you. Just invest in a really really long cable.

    • Mattb says:

      12:15pm | 30/03/11

      @the real Dave

      “I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the majority of the so called anti-NBN people would change their tune tomorrow if the Libs turned around and said ‘Hey, elect us and we will give you the same thing’.”

      100% correct Dave, this is exactly what it’s all about. It’s not a liberal party idea, so in their eyes and tony abbotts eyes, it’s no good.

    • Gregg says:

      12:23pm | 30/03/11

      @Perse
      ” In Tasmania, the NBN roll out was on time and on budget. There’s no reason to believe that future roll outs won’t improve on that. “
      Oh yeah, and just how much of Tasmania has been done?
      You can do your research on what satellite and wireless can do for you, bith having been available for many years and being continually improved.

      What is a real beat up is the noise that Conroy, Gillard and all labor supporters make without having a care for the real NBN facts, the masterplan for doing all of Australia if you like and the government and NBN being prepared to give detailed information to the public, let alone have a proper analysis done.
      ” Using this level of argument as justification for something not happening would mean that no one anywhere in Australia would build any infrastructure ever again. “
      You talk of justification Perse and all that is being said is that some realism needs to be injected into the program but like with most labor spending of late, that is just a little too difficult for Labor.
      @ Dave,
      10, 000 or a million, so bloody what!
      First of all it will be the ISPs and what their charges will be that will determine what speed is available and what people will be prepared to pay for.
      Name a few real life benefits of super fast speed over and above what is available for most people now via ADSL2, satellite or Wifi.

      And then if you’re stupid enough to say OK, I’ll be prepared to pay whatever it is I’ll be charged even though I have no idea what that might be in the future, you’re far far stupider than those larger segments you question.

      What you may not pay for it directly, you will pay for in the absence of other government services and higher taxes.
      All this talk of it not being budgetted for, the government not having to put in monet because it’ll be self funding

      Where will the money come from when it is not self funding?
      And that is not an If either.
      Yep taxpayers and up go the fees.

      So the government wants a higher take up rate - yep, sorry you can no longer use those quite good copper lines, not even for a telephone connection.
      Are we living in a democracy or a new dictatorship?

      So one way or another the government has poured in heaps and played dictator, and then theý claim they can flog the system off.
      If it is sellable and a buyer is found, the buyer will be wanting a guaranteed return on the investment, something a Labor government will probably offer, courtesy of taxpayers again.

      And then the fun will start on what future charges will be.
      Meanwhile, what will guarantees on all the connection and ISP hardware be and what will the maintenance costs be?
      Some connections in Tasmania are still not working after multiple home visits and the NBN will not be too forthcoming on that.

      And on maintaining programs, that is something governments are Oh so very good at, be it Liberal or Labor and one good reason a Liberal governement will always want the private sector developing, a governments role being to provide the environment, something Labor have conveniently forgotten.
      With the Broadband Guarantee Program that has allowed people to get subsidised satellite installations, not only have subscribers needed to have an equipment warranty paid for, that can only go on for three years and then it’s government program tough titties if something becomes a problem, the word from a supplier actually being that the situation will be determined by the NBN!!!!! policy, whatever that may mean.

      Yep, political pie in the sky for sure.
      It is going to be more than a white elephant, that’s for sure and more a national fiasco with a herd of white elephants.

      As for what a Liberal can or would do, so we have a half baked plan into what millions have already been poured and a proper analysis shows it is absolutely the wrong path to be headed down.
      The Labor government has created this for them and so what are the options then!!!!!!!!!!!!
      When the half baking is already well progressed?

    • Jim says:

      01:10pm | 30/03/11

      “I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the majority of the so called anti-NBN people would change their tune tomorrow if the Libs turned around and said ‘Hey, elect us and we will give you the same thing’.”

      In a roundabout way, perhaps. If the Libs put together a $36bn proposal you’d know it would have a solid business plan and deliver value for money - because that’s their track record. Labor’s track record on the other hand….

      People aren’t against having an NBN…you can call us luddites or technophobes or any of the acceptable emotive labels from the ALP handbook.

      People are against handing this Labor government $36bn knowing that they ‘ll screw it up with cost blow-outs and poor workmanship by keeping with their ‘jobs for the boys’ standards.

    • TheRealDave says:

      02:59pm | 30/03/11

      @Jim, I hope their business plan is put together better than their election costings…..Fudged numbers isn’t unique to the Labor Party despite bleating to the contrary.

      @Gregg I have, over the past 6 months listed many many benefits we will see once the NBN rolls around over current technology in a plethora of threads here on the Punch. So have plenty of other IT Journo’s in that time frame in many other sources. Its a pity people such as yourself stick your fingers in your ears and shut your eyes whenever somebody takes the time to explain it slowly and in small words and then have the audacity claim you haven’t heard any benefits. They are there, you just don’t want to listen.

      Maybe you could get start getting some ‘Technology’ related news from actual IT sector sources instead of the Australian and its fraudulent histrionics?

      But I will take aim at Labor and Conroy. They should be doing a huge advertising blitz with a handful of commercials on rotation explaining the benefits. This is a huge ticket item that gets a lot of inches in news columns and a lot of time in Redneck, sorry l mean Talkback Radio. The cost of lets says 6 ads would go a long way into getting some real facts out there and less of the outright bollocks that is being published.

    • Peter says:

      05:54am | 30/03/11

      Dear Frank, Your article contains a glaring error, you use the word COULD, rather than WILL as seen by everything else Rudd had a hand in.

    • acotrel says:

      07:44am | 30/03/11

      @Peter COULD is the correct word!  Liberal Party scaremongering is usually based on speculation!  Tony Abbott even managed to deliver stated ‘FACTS” on the consequences of the ‘carbon tax’ from a scenario he he dreamed up in this own dysfunctional head!

    • Tator says:

      01:34pm | 30/03/11

      acotrel,
      those facts “Abbott dreamt up in his head” came from Treasuries modelling for the CPRS which used a base price of $26 for “carbon dioxide”
      This info came from a doorstop interview with Abbott and Hockey on 1/3/11 and the question asked and the answer are as follows:

      QUESTION:

      Mr Abbott, [inaudible] we don’t yet know what the carbon price will be or what the compensation will be. How do you arrive at the figure of $300?

      TONY ABBOTT:

      Because the $26 a tonne price of carbon was the price used by Treasury to model the impacts of a carbon price on the economy. Now, that was the figure the Treasury used. I think it’s perfectly reasonable for us to use that figure in estimating the impact of the carbon tax but I do make this point, this carbon tax is coming because the Prime Minister told lies to the public before the election and it’s coming because the Prime Minister is being dictated to by the Greens. So, it’s highly likely that the carbon price will be much, much higher under this carbon tax than it was under the original proposal.

      So how is quoting Treasury figures making it up in your head????

    • PTom says:

      03:20pm | 30/03/11

      @Tator,
      So how did O’Farrell come up with $500 Carbon Tax used in the NSW election.
      Abbott has also said new house will go up by $6000.

    • Tator says:

      10:49pm | 30/03/11

      PTom,
      O’Farrell was quoting cost of electricity increases, Abbott was quoting total cost of energy including fuel and natural gas increases, different figures from same source.

    • thatmosis says:

      06:23am | 30/03/11

      By the time this crap is rolled out it will be yesterdays news and almost worthless. Technology is advancing so quickly that it is almost obsolete now but we will still be burdened with the enormous costs for decades to come because of another failed policy by the party of failed policies.

    • thatidiot says:

      09:18am | 30/03/11

      I know,
      This crap is so outdated already.
      Have you heard about the nuclear reactors that run on fruit-loops and produce chocolate as a waste product?
      They hardly cost anything and the chocolate is supposed to be yummy.

    • Chris L says:

      09:52am | 30/03/11

      @Thatmosis, optic cable moves information at the speed of light. Let me know when technology improves upon that.

    • Jacob says:

      09:57am | 30/03/11

      HAHAHAHAHHAHA HAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAHA ha!

    • Bolz says:

      01:37pm | 30/03/11

      Hmmm…light can travel around the earth in about .14 of a second. On the other hand, travelling at the speed of wifi around the earth (taking into account the atmosphere) will do it in about .2 of a second. Being that we are talking about using wifi for only short distances would you actually even notice a difference? I doubt it very much! The whole speed of light thing is tad wank if you ask me!

    • james milton says:

      01:49pm | 30/03/11

      @Chris L

      Wireless moves information at the speed of light as well. Let me know when the NBN improves on that.

    • TheRealDave says:

      02:50pm | 30/03/11

      Let me know when wireless can do it reliably and with more than one or two users and without towers every 5 or so blocks… oh… you forgot that bit?

      And lets not even talk about interference, atmospherics, radiation etc

      Have a nice day wink

    • Chris L says:

      04:51pm | 30/03/11

      @James - I was replying to the assertion that fibre optic will be redundant in the near future (read the original post). I was pointing out that this is extremely unlikely. Do you disagree?

    • Michael says:

      06:49am | 30/03/11

      What I really cannot see - and I’ve run an online sortware company for 15 year, so I have a bit of a clue - is what “success” would be for the NBN. I’ve talked to many other geeks and while I agree, it would be cool to have fast broadband. Oh, wait. I already have that… It would be great for remote farms to be connected to fast broadband, except that the NBN is not planning to do that - they will get satellite connection. Which they have now. What about a full 100mb/s of wonderful internet delivered to my desktop? Well, I could get that now, but it would cost a lot. NBN will cost a lot (more) too.

      From what I can see, the NBN, IF it succeeds, will give us what we have now, only more expensive and with a HUGE and uncertain price-tag. Benefits include getting the internet at potentially high speeds, only much more expensive than it is now. That’s it. Nothing else…

      The really good bits are: almost 80% of the data consumed in Aus comes from the US via a few cables across the Pacific. I have 25mb/s now and I rarely get the full benefit of that - if I had 100 mb/s, in real terms my data flow is not going to be any faster, because the other end of the line just is not that quick. Result: I pay more to get exactly the same… AND juliar and that moron conroy spend an uncertain amount of our money - likely to be around $100 billion based on cost of roll out in Tas and Qld - which frankly, would be MUCH better spent elsewhere, like flood repairs, clean energy research, health, or god-forbid, some desperately needed infrastructure!

      I’d put up with a meagre 25mb/s and wasted seconds waiting if I could save 20 minutes a day with functional public transport or 8 hours if I need a hospital!

    • Jacob says:

      08:25am | 30/03/11

      “NBN will cost a lot (more) too.”
      links?

    • Ken says:

      09:33am | 30/03/11

      You are confusing activity for capacity. Most of the network capacity to the US is inactive. Everything else you’ve said is also rubbish and I doubt your claim to run an “online software company”.

    • Pants on fire says:

      09:37am | 30/03/11

      Too bad you don’t live in the bush Michael, you’d be crying out for broadband.
      What you have to keep in mind Michael, is not everything is about you.

      PS online software companies haven’t been around for 15 years.
      Any other porkies you’d like to amuse us with?

    • Damien says:

      11:05am | 30/03/11

      Mate 100% agreed. Backhaul is the key to throughput, as soon as your connection gets above about 5-10mbit it really depends on where you’re getting the data from. Who cares about 100mbit to the home when you can only get 10mbit to the data sources.

    • TheRealDave says:

      03:03pm | 30/03/11

      Hi Michael,

      Do you know why you get a fraction of your ADSL speed? I’ll give you a clue. Its to do with the quality of the copper connection you have now and how far you are from the Exchange.

      Lastly, it warms my heart when HelpDesk Monkeys start talking ‘IT’. Bless your little cotton bobby socks.

    • Damien says:

      07:14am | 30/03/11

      The analogy by Erick above is amusing, particularly the final nugget ‘despite some problems in the years 1939-45’. What happened there Erick, or should we ask Basel Fawlty instead?

    • Erick says:

      11:58am | 30/03/11

      Don’t mention it, Damien. wink

    • Jade says:

      07:25am | 30/03/11

      I just want to know.. which Punch readers will actually take up on the Broadband offer once it becomes available in your area?

      Unless it is around $40.00 per month and I can still get 6-8gb of allowance every month I won’t be.

    • acotrel says:

      08:27am | 30/03/11

      @Jade The free market economy will take care of the pricing!

    • bella starkey says:

      10:23am | 30/03/11

      if you are only getting 8gig a month on regular terristrial broadband you are being seriously ripped off.

    • Tom says:

      10:24am | 30/03/11

      @acetroll, that sounds like “she’ll be right mate, don’t you worry about that”.

      The “free market” therefore will take care of the return on investment? Pray tell what is this so-called return? When will that return be delivered?

      As a Labor flunky you would be able to tell us all if only you and your spinning mates had some real answers. The truth is you don’t.

    • Jade says:

      11:30am | 30/03/11

      @ Bella… its wireless broadband with Virgin…

    • Jades Problem says:

      12:41pm | 30/03/11

      Jade is paying 39 dollars a month for mobile broadband with an 8Gb quota. Access to the Virgin 3G network is through the mobile phone network and this is why she only gets access in an area that has mobile phone access. Her service would be patchy and affected by weather. It would also suffer from dropped connections and must compete for bandwidth with all the phone users using the same base station at a given time. This would mean that her throughput would be patchy and is certainly slow compared to fixed line broadband.
      So slow in fact, that she would never reach a download speed in excess of 1 Mb/sec.

      This approach is typical of young people who have more money than sense. They try to proclaim their independence by freeing themselves from the constraints of being wired in and the sense of permanence that forbodes.  They would rather spend 2 or three times the amount of money on feeling “free” than having fast reliable access to all of their devices, including mobile ones through fixed line delivery.

    • Jade says:

      02:33pm | 30/03/11

      Haha proclaim my independence? Yeah I will show them… I am not going to be tied down with cables! haha

      Did you ever think it is just the cheapest option?

    • Martin Hopes says:

      08:01am | 30/03/11

      There would not be one piece of infrastructure ever undertaken in Australian history that would not have overblown the budget, it is to be expected, that should not be a reason for abandoning the idea.

      As for wireless - the more users the slower the speed, sometimes no reception at all, 9/11 and Christchurch showed us all the problems associated with clogged networks, adverse weather will hinder connection, as will large structures, depending on how far you are from the network base will decide what quality connection you receive,  more importantly, security is a major issue with wireless connection, always has been and always will be.

      The NBN is more than just downloading movies or social networking - the bigger picture includes hospitals, defence, education to name just a few, all relying on a fast, secure and reliable connection, something wireless does not offer and never will.

      My biggest concern with wireless is from a health point of view, if we all turn to wireless then it would be safer sitting next to the number three reactor in Fukushima, we’re all going to fry!!

    • acotrel says:

      08:44am | 30/03/11

      What I like about wireless broadband is the way it’s accessible to everybody else near to my modem.  It’s not exactlly ‘user pays’ but i’m a public spirited citizen, happy to have my neighbours get free internet! They can probably also access my credit card if they work at it?

    • TimB says:

      09:14am | 30/03/11

      No it isn’t Acotrel. Not if you’re smart enough to protect it with a decent password.

      Oh wait. I see the flaw now.

    • Joel B1 says:

      08:10am | 30/03/11

      Unless it’s better than this: ADSL2 100GB Naked for $60/mth.

      It’ll be a step backwards. And if Telstra have anything to do with it you’ll get tiny bandwidth for premium price.
      Like owning a Ferrari but with only a cup of fuel. Very fast but over real soon.

      But we will get the cable laid because in 2018 Telstra is killing the copper network, so unless you’ve got fibre laid for free now you’ll be paying $3000 to get it laid then.
      The Tassie ALP government screwed it up and now want to make getting the fibre laid an OPT-OUT process rather than the utterly thoughtless current OPT-IN.

      You couldn’t make it up.

    • PTom says:

      11:23am | 30/03/11

      Why are they moving to OPT-OUT to replace the copper telephone lines and stop landlord or strata from taking to long to answering.
      What does NBN charge now to lay the fibre to your home if you don’t OPT-OUT? NOTHING.
      You only pay if you later decide to OPT-IN.

      If you look at the NBN outlet you will find 2 voice ports that means that ADSL2 is still available over the telephone line connection. So if you want to save $3000+ later OPT-IN when you get the chance. 

      BTW there is also 4 data ports which will allow you to run AUSTAR, Foxtel, IINET and BIGPOND off fibre while have TPG and DODO running over your telephone lines.

    • Mike says:

      08:40am | 30/03/11

      I live in the Blue Mountains; I pay $60 a month for 4Mb.  (on a really good day).  I am 63 now.  By the time the NBN reaches here, I’ll be dead anyhow.  Why don’t they start the rollout in areas Where the current system is crap first, then extend to areas which already have fast reliable coverage…

    • Against the Man says:

      08:45am | 30/03/11

      Lets be sensible folks. Since ‘07, Federal ALP has yet to achieve significant success from a policy point of view. So now we are jumping from health care to carbon tax to NBN. Great. We are getting suckered by the Gilltard team in plain sight.

      I know the NBN will fail, I want the NBN to fail. This will be another failure medal for Gilltard to wear around her neck for the rest of her life. A legacy of shame.

    • Chris L says:

      10:37am | 30/03/11

      Let’s be sensible and hope that projects undertaken for our country succeed, hey ATM?

      The fact that you hope it fails so that Labor will look bad shows that your opposition to them is idealogical. This is a flaw you would readily point out to any Labor supporters hoping for a failure in NSW state Liberals, and rightly so.

    • Against the Man says:

      02:06pm | 30/03/11

      It will fail because of ALP mismanagement.

      Our country needs a wake up call. This failure might be what it takes to get people to realise that the ALP is not the political party for this country. I would like to be proven wrong but if we just look at health care, asylum seeker management, ETS, carbon tax, flood levy, fuel watch, home insulation deaths, gay marriage, economic development, economic management….............you see what I mean, zero success and we think these yahoos can impliment the NBN on time and on budget without union corruption. Good luck!

    • skepdad says:

      08:54am | 30/03/11

      A failure of the NBN would almost be worth it to see Conjob gone.

    • Chris L says:

      09:01am | 30/03/11

      “White elephants” are up there with “moving forward” and “great big new tax on everything” as overused phrases I’m sick of hearing.

    • Ken says:

      09:12am | 30/03/11

      The naysayers keep pretending the NBN is money down a black hole, but the application of even a minimal amount of common sense shows otherwise. Costs aren’t recovered by a revenue stream, costs are recovered by sale of the asset. In the meantime revenue is just icing on the cake. At the end of the day we have an asset that is certainly worth tens of billions of dollars. Where does that number come from, well Telstra’s network is valued at some $40 billion and that is much inferior to the NBN. So who would buy the NBN? Why don’t you ask who would buy Telstra, because it’s effectively the same question. Are you suggesting the value of Telstra is $0?

      The naysayers also keep pretending this is a large amount of money. The construction of the NBN is spread out over a decade, only $1-$2 billion is being spent annually. This is less money than Abbott offered the independents for their vote, this is less money than Abbott claimed could be found by squeezing the budget rather than introduce a flood levy.

      Once the performance benefits of the NBN are realized, the take up will approach 100%. The cost won’t be any different to current services, so why would any rational person choose to use an inferior service? Most likely existing ISP services will transfer to the NBN wholesaler. Besides, what alternatives are there anyway? The wireless option is complete bunk, especially in concentrated urban areas.

      There is no rational basis to claim the NBN won’t be completed. The only way that would happen is if the Liberals achieved government and aborted the project in order to placate the principle Telstra monopoly shareholders.

      This article is from the school that repeating lies makes them fact. Even your opening premise is obviously wrong, various articles on this site and newspapers have been campaigning against the NBN since day one. Everything you’ve said has been repeated dozens of times and has been shown to be wrong dozens of times.

      The NBN is one of the smartest infrastructure projects any government has launched since federation.

    • NO, now what was the question again? says:

      09:43am | 30/03/11

      The people who slag off the NBN are either luddites, or conservative hacks who support the party of NO and it’s one trick pony of a leader.
      Opposition for the sake of opposition. The answer is NO, now what was the question again?
      This NBN and the applications and opportunities that will come,  will transform the conservative mindset of the bush and the nationals will be even less relevant as the time marches on..

    • Diogenes says:

      11:34am | 30/03/11

      I am looking for the ‘whats in it for me’ killer app that will require the speed & bandwidth available before I would even consider going on the NBN.

      With adsl it was a no brainer - I could talk on the phone & be on the ‘net at the same time without needing a second phone line - the extra speed was a bonus.

      I am still on ADSL1 as Telstra is the only ADSL2 provider in my area & is way more expensive than my ISP can offer - I see no justification for paying double the money for double the speed & half the download

    • PTom says:

      12:48pm | 30/03/11

      @Diogenes
      You do know that NBN will delivery existing dialip and both ADSL services. NBN is only a delivery service not a ISP nor a Phone company.

      What your saying is you want your Pizza delivery by pushbike intead of by car. Yet if you chose the car you could get 50 pizza, 10 cokes and lots of desserts while by bike you only get 2 pizza and a coke.

      So do you really care if ASDL is delivered over Fibre or Copper?

    • Gregg says:

      02:07pm | 30/03/11

      @Ken,
      The article is all about the What Ifs and that is something any sensible business plan should incorporate as well as identifying there was a need.
      Private enterprise does that far better in most cases than governments and especially one with the track record of Labor, the need here having been all about a political pie in the sky, the largest infrastructure project in the nation to date and yet one not only not about essential services but if in fact it means the demise of existing copper phone services to more remote locations to have the inconsistency of satellite services foisted on to people, that will be criminal.
      What if someone in dire circumstances cannot get help because the satellite phone system does not function - will that be then a Conroy Killing as with the Pink Batts.

      These are the questions not being addressed and costs for the future are merely promises, the size of the black hole and how long the many black boxes will satisfactorily function for also an unknown, but what is known is that some are already not functioning so well.
      As for
      ”  Costs aren’t recovered by a revenue stream, costs are recovered by sale of the asset. In the meantime revenue is just icing on the cake. “
      Where do you do business buddy for the prime claim of Conroy if not NBN is that the revenue will at some stage start paying for the roll out so that there will be less need for government capital input.

      ” At the end of the day we have an asset that is certainly worth tens of billions of dollars. Where does that number come from, well Telstra’s network is valued at some $40 billion and that is much inferior to the NBN. “
      Asset values have two factors for the commercial world and that is cost of establishing the infrastructure - why the NBN is forking over $13B to Telstra for accessing their tunnels/poles etc. and then there is income value and if the income is down, so will be the value.
      The NBN is yet to have a network btw!

      ” So who would buy the NBN? Why don’t you ask who would buy Telstra, because it’s effectively the same question. Are you suggesting the value of Telstra is $0? “
      What a stupid comment!

      ” Once the performance benefits of the NBN are realized, the take up will approach 100%. ” ..... Most likely existing ISP services will transfer to the NBN wholesaler. “
      With copper services being withdrawn, it is being dictated to us that there will be no option regardless of performance or cost
      ” The cost won’t be any different to current services, so why would any rational person choose to use an inferior service? “
      Well so you hope!

      All that has been asked for from Day one is that a proper analysis occurs, something that Labor has not only wanted to avoid but even with a half baked one they have wanted to keep it concealed.

      If they had put before an election clear facts on:
      . what does withdrawal of copper services actually mean.
      . who is going to maintain and fix faults and pay for it.
      . who is going to pay for the inflationery costs
      . just how is medicine at the end of a fibre optic connection going to work any better than it does now.
      . how does education actually benefit for stuff on big screens can come from recordings.
      etc. etc.
      What is the actual overall financial plan for if it is going to be taxpayers who ultimately have to pay for the establishment and the government reckon they are in for a grand financial sale windfall, should it not be taxpayers who will benefit from that and how so!

      If the NBN is such a sure business model, why have they not already floated the NBN as an infrastructure investment company and let private enterprise drive it?
      The private sector has been to the fore in recent decades with investments in telecommunications and there is no reason to think that they would not continue to do so.

    • Ken says:

      05:17pm | 30/03/11

      Gregg said: “The article is all about the What Ifs”

      No it isn’t. It’s pure politically motivated spin, as is your response full of incoherent, loaded, false and intentionally misleading assertions.

      One of the roles of government is to provide funding for necessary big picture infrastructure that private enterprise is not able to fund. How do we justify spending billions of dollars of national highways? The quality of our roads has a knock on effect through the entire economy. Good roads reduce costs, increases profits, increases employment and increases tax receipts. The NBN is worth it by itself, but it also represents less risk to the government than it does to private industry. This type of funding has been accepted practice for over a hundred years (and is how Telstra was born), which all of a sudden with the invention of the NBN the Liberals have decided to discard.

      As for the suggestion this is not an “essential service”, try and imagine how our economy would look today if we’d never built highways, this is how important the NBN will be to our economy in twenty years. You might struggle on paying exorbitant prices for dial up, but then I was talking about rational people employing common sense so you don’t apply.

      There is no mandatory withdrawal of copper services. Your scaremongering is completely false. In any case, the telephone system already operates using the same technology/network as the internet anyway and in some cases may already depend on wireless. There will be no degradation of telephone service as a result of migrating to a more reliable and faster network.

      I honestly don’t think you have the faintest idea about business or technology. The asset value is the asset value, the cost of building the asset is immaterial to the value of the asset itself. It is reasonable to make a direct comparison to Telstra’s network value for an estimate of the worth of the NBN. I find it very hard to believe that any comms player in the market would buy Telstra’s old crumbling copper network for $40 billion and ignore the shiny new fast NBN on the shelf, don’t you? Or maybe you do, given your obtuse response to my point. You also forgot to mention the $11 billion NBN is paying Telstra reduces rollout costs and also involves transfer of Telstra customers to the NBN, that must be a bad thing right?

      Yours and the articles questions have been addressed inumerable times, there have been tomes of analysis written. They are stupid and deliberately misleading questions trying to cast doubt in areas where there is none.

      I suggest you start you education here: http://www.nbn.gov.au/

    • Super D says:

      09:21am | 30/03/11

      I’m pro the idea of the NBN.  I think it will prove to be a useful piece of infrastructure.  The issue I have with the NBN is the way that the government is pretending its a commercial enterprise and then legislating to beef up the commercial aspects of the scheme - to the detriment of competition. 

      The reason for the pretence of commerciality is straightforward - they don’t want it on the budget.  This is a political decision as the NBN would blow out the surplus forecasts.  So the business environment which will exist with the NBN is being designed to allow political posturing - hardly a recipe for good policy.

      The other issue I have is the requirement to shut down other networks.  A single national network is a censors dream.

    • Richard M says:

      09:40am | 30/03/11

      Everybody should be made aware that Frank Zumbo is a Liberal Party stooge who masquerades as an independent trade practices expert.  He was outed last year by Craig Emerson (see a press release from June 2010) as a former Liberal Campaign Manager and a long standing Liberal.  Everything he says about the NBN, or any other subject concerning Government policy, should be taken with about a tonne of salt.  I am disgusted, but not surprised, that the Punch would run this stuff without full disclosure.

    • Jim says:

      01:16pm | 30/03/11

      And your point is?

      The Punch allows such fine examples of idiocy like Ged Kearney and Jim Green to contribute. At least Zumbo makes perfect sense.

    • Thommo the Enlightened says:

      10:13am | 30/03/11

      Finally a decent article about the reality of the NBN white elephant. Never judge an article by it’s author - always judge it on it’s own merits. Seems quite a few people aren’t intelligent enough to do this (Richard M etc). I’m a potential NBN user, I work from home, employee 30 people across Australia, New Zealand and India, but I’m deliberately not going to take it up until it has basically collapsed from lack of uptake. Then and only then when they are having a firesale will I uptake. I’m quite happy with 50gb a month on 1.5Mbs. I can get a song in under 30 seconds and a full feature film in about 45 minutes. I can stream live video in a low res - which is enough for me.

    • TheRealDave says:

      10:56am | 30/03/11

      Dear Thommo, As an alleged business owner with 30 people across a few regions how is your business comms going, real time collaboration, data sharing, secure access etc ?? Nowhere near as good as companies with major uplinks across the country/world and even then they aren’t as good as those clients like/need. Do you use ‘business’ grade connections or regular consumer services? Can you imagine being able to real time voice/video conference with all 30 of your employees across the country, in high definition so you can all clearly communicate, be able to share complex and large amounts of critical business data, presentations, archives etc all seamlessly and immediately? You can ‘kind of’ do that now…if you don’t mind the limitations, delays, low quality etc There are plenty of systems that you can ‘make do’ with. But how much money are you as a business owner going to save when you don’t have to ‘make do’ and get real next generation results? You know, what we all thought the internet was actually going to do for us but lack of bandwith has killed.

      I do agree with the naysayers, Home Users have totally different needs to business, no ifs and or buts about it, but you, as an alleged business owner should be able to easily see where greater bandwidth is going to benefit your business, especially if it spans several countries. If not, give me a call and engage my professional services…for a reasonable fee of course wink

      And for the record, I get my movies in about 4 minutes now. 15 if I want HD quality. Its not ‘all about the movies, warez and pron’ y’know.

    • Richard M says:

      11:22am | 30/03/11

      This is nonsense.  The fact that an author has a pre-determined party-political position, and therefore that his view is by definition biased, is fundamentally relevant to a judgement about the article’s contents.  This is so obvious one would think it hardly needed to be explained.  Do you think it would be OK for a pro-NBN article to be published (not that it would on this site!) without disclosing, for example, that the author was an ALP apparatchik?

    • TheRealDave says:

      03:07pm | 30/03/11

      @Rich, I’d just love to, for once. see a decent factual article on the NBN and its technologies and those of ‘other’ competitors written by somebody with a bit of IT nous…just for once, in the mainstream media.

    • L. says:

      10:14am | 30/03/11

      Just a quick question to all the pro-NBN folk..

      If it is to be so great, why the need to legislate away all competition and remove all copper already in place?

      The words “captive market” spring to minf…

    • TheRealDave says:

      11:06am | 30/03/11

      I’ll bite L, as a definite Pro-NBNer and IT Professional of far too many years.

      I do agree that we should scrap the copper network and port everyone over to the NBN by making it mandatory. Wholeheartedly. 100%. Yes.

      Why?

      Well, the first thing that springs to mind is the continual bleating by anti-NBN people whinging about ‘business cases’ and the obsessive need to ‘make massive profits’. and ‘pay of the cost of building it’. If we kill off copper, move everyone to the NBN, then from Day 1 we are earning full revenue on the new system. Fibre gets plugged into your house, copper gets cut and you are paying of fthe NBN already. Seems pretty simple to me and the quickest way to appease people using those arguments and paying off the NBN construction costs faster.

      Win - Win no?

      Secondly, why maintain a failing degraded obsolete system? Makes no financial sense to pour money into copper when you have a better, faster, more reliable and equivalent cost system already plugged into your house doesn’t it?

      It just seems incongruous to me that the very people bitching about the cost of the NBN, bitching about how it needs to make a profit, bitching about how it needs to be sustainable etc are also the people bitching about ‘oh, why should we force people to use it when they already have copper’ ??

      Its a bit like Global Warming…when they couldn’t show continual Global Warming they decided to call it Climate Change instead. Better known as ‘Moving the Goalposts’ when your argument is losing.

    • john says:

      11:24am | 30/03/11

      @L. says… because the government sold bonds to raise money to build the NBN, the strategy to create a captive market is so the government can show a return for investment over time so it can break up and sell telstra. Basically in layman’s terms…..to flog it off to make some money in the future.  Too bad labor, wireless will kill the NBN, just like video killed the radio star. Who would of thought wireless radio will now kill the video star!

      For those of you too young that should know better what video killed the radio star is:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwuy4hHO3YQ&feature=related

    • billy says:

      11:46am | 30/03/11

      TheRealDave you are absolutely right most of the anti NBN dont understand this Technolegy. We currently run Fibre between major communication systems here. Its very fast, reliable and plenty of bandwidth. We would never think of replacing it with copper or wireless, it will never handle it.

      Sure Wirless will advance and get faster, but so will Fibre. You all need to understand this, nothing will get close to the speed that fibre can achieve.

    • Not the real dave just another one says:

      12:14pm | 30/03/11

      the vain dave
      Why should the people of the bush pay for something that will be no better than what they already have. Ps are you prepared to pay a couple of grand extra to get the cable into your home and then have to repair the damage to the front of your house?

    • L. says:

      01:37pm | 30/03/11

      “I’ll bite L, as a definite Pro-NBNer and IT Professional of far too many years.”

      Really..?? So you’ll remmeber they bad old days of $1.50/min STD phone calls because Australia had ZERO competition. THis is what we will have with the NBN, No competiton. If the RSP’s cannot source their wholesale data from anyone but the NBN, then that is by default a monopoly. Furthermore, the NBN is going to retail, what has changed?

      “I do agree that we should scrap the copper network and port everyone over to the NBN by making it mandatory. Wholeheartedly. 100%. Yes.”
      Yeah.. getting rid of the competition… Stunning idea. Can’t wait.

      Win - Win no?

      You’re right…No.

      “Secondly, why maintain a failing degraded obsolete system?”

      That is not up to you, Conroy or the NBN… That is up to Optus, Telstra etc and their shareholders.

      “Makes no financial sense to pour money into copper when you have a better, faster, more reliable and equivalent cost system already plugged into your house doesn’t it?”

      If it makes “no financial” then why does the NBN require legislative protection from the competition? A leg up I get.. Tax breaks I understand. But to kill all competition outright? Sorry, this is something Hugo Chavez would come up with.

    • TheRealDave says:

      02:21pm | 30/03/11

      Now you’re just deliberately ignoring the facts L aren’t you?

      ALL the current vendors INCLUDING Telstra buy off the one wholesalers and price according to their own internal methods. They can bundle, unbundle, offer various speeds, download limits, peak, offpeak etc - whatever they like. They can ALL compete across a level playing field.

      Unlike the situation now where Telstra quite often sells to market cheaper than they wholesale - or did you miss the multitude of court cases Telstra have lost because of this and getting fined Millions, which never stops them because they make more than they get fined because of their monopoly position.

      Further, you’d STILL be paying $1.50 a minute STD if it wasn’t for all these 3rd tier vendors who sprung up onto the market int eh last 20 years…or do you think Telstra dropped their pricing out of the goodness of their hearts?

      Flawed analogy is flawed, but thanks for playing wink

      Ahh John, you and your magic wireless again. You need to get out more and stop watching your Star Trek NG boxed set wink

      @The Other Me

      Lets face it - this is the best deal you will ever get. You are getting ALL your backbones upgraded. Across the country. Will you get fibre to your house - not a snowballs chance in hell, unless you live a couple of streets away from the town centre and its a reasonably sized town. Fair? Probably not, but thats the tyranny of distance in this wide brown land. Don’t like it? Move to somewhere you can get fibre. If not, then yes you will be stuck on poorer quality/speed Wireless or Satellite. Unless of course you get some of this ‘magic wireless’ that clueless numpties pop up out of the ground with. The fantasy wireless that *laughingly* ‘as good as if not better than fibre’ wink

    • L says:

      05:20pm | 30/03/11

      “ALL the current vendors INCLUDING Telstra buy off the one wholesalers and price according to their own internal methods. They can bundle, unbundle, offer various speeds, download limits, peak, offpeak etc - whatever they like. They can ALL compete across a level playing field.”

      Right… So if the NBN starts to tank and in turn puts up their monopoly wholesale price, where can the RSP’s turn to for a better deal..?? Nowhere. So OUR Internet prices rise….unless the Gov of the day introduces an NBN levy.

      “Unlike the situation now where Telstra quite often sells to market cheaper than they wholesale - or did you miss the multitude of court cases Telstra have lost because of this and getting fined Millions, which never stops them because they make more than they get fined because of their monopoly position.”

      So how will a new MONOPOLY wholesaler rectify this..?? A monopoly wholesaler who apparently can now RETAIL to utilities and Gov..?? Sounds awfully familiar.

      “Further, you’d STILL be paying $1.50 a minute STD if it wasn’t for all these 3rd tier vendors who sprung up onto the market int eh last 20 years…or do you think Telstra dropped their pricing out of the goodness of their hearts?”

      Well Derrr… That’s my point. By legislating that the NBN will have ZERO competition, the Gov has essentially just made a new PMG / Telecom.

      “Flawed analogy is flawed, but thanks for playing wink”

      No.. as outlined above.

      “Ahh John, you and your magic wireless again. You need to get out more and stop watching your Star Trek NG boxed set wink”

      Whether you like it or not, wireless is a direct competitor to FTTH for one very simple reason… cost. As mobile devices (iPads / Galaxy tabs etc) now outsell PC’s, most people will have to decide… Do I spend $50 on fixed line, or do I spend $30+ on mobile, because many people cannot aford both.

    • James says:

      11:01am | 30/03/11

      If we go back several decades, and this was electricity we were talking about, would you all be up in arms? The use for electricity now compared to when it was put in is phenomenonally (sp?) different in both function and throughput, far exceeding what the original developers would have envisaged. And so it will be with the NBN. While high speed data communications are unneccesary in the home today, it will push innovators to design technology that in 10 years may be pervasive as the mobile phone.

      And instead of expecting the end user to pay for entire network, we need to factor wider economic advantages of high speed data communications. When we build a road we don’t expect it to pay for itself directly, even if it is a toll road. We provide it as a service and a tool with which we can support the local economy.

    • Harquebus says:

      11:41am | 30/03/11

      What do you mean, “could”? FTTN public, NTTH private.

    • Gavin says:

      11:41am | 30/03/11

      Hi,

      Everytime I see something I see red and here Kylie singing ‘Step back in time’.

      And I think I will finally vent.
      Next time Conroy & other boosters say NBN 21st century blah blah blah can someone in arms reach give him a good hard slap and say:
      “Why are you building your so called 21st century network to deploy a 19th century service delivery model you e-diot?”

      A natural [in this case possibly legislated] monopoly needs to be regulated. I always found it hilarious that the share value destroying amigo from Telstra complained about regulation in OZ after arriving from a company that had to formally apply for price changes to a govt appointed board at the Telco he came from! Oh the hypocrisy in this debate.

      The monopoly needs to be defined - what is the monopoly - whilst to a lesser extent than first gen telecoms, the remaining and always strongest part is the last mile. When they decide the number of POPs we will have a clearly defined line between competition and monopoly. So why can’t we build a service model around that?

      Why can’t the NBN charge a last mile fee and have all the service providers sell on an equal footing to the POP? Then we would have a fully competitive market and a fully monopoly market. It would also help get rid of all those stupid 12/24/36 month lockins that limit user choice.

      And while we are at it - do you know the cost difference between a 25MB connect and 100MB to deliver and maintain - $0. Has anyone asked Sen. CONroy about why a sub full speed product is being wholesaled when its cost base is the same? Anyone ever order 12MB ADSL2+ - no? because when it was introduced and the cost base was ULL [flat fee - 4 geo versions] competition dictated best available speed.

      I could never understand why need for super fast broadband [or whatever this weeks wanky term is] is a justification for selling something and then offering at less than 100MB. Your onward link from a vendor may be set at less - but that should be a service level limit not a connect monopoly limit.

      Everytime I see a new piece of information about NBN I think - more and more like old Telstra! Old telstra bad - new NBN same bad!

      If the NBN is a fail in service design then it may follow that the technology will not save it. I can’t believe we are pay over $30B for such a poorly thought out telecoms model.

    • Ryan says:

      12:43pm | 30/03/11

      I think the idealism of an NBN is a good idea, the implementation, the wasted dollars and the communist style forcing of people onto it is horrific.

    • PTom says:

      01:36pm | 30/03/11

      Just like Howards communist style forcing people to buy new TV, Radio or Set top box so they can watch or listen to the new digital signals after anagloue get switched off.

      Same deal copper cable to home will be switched of Fibre to home is what you will then have.

    • john says:

      04:46pm | 30/03/11

      @Ryan and you will take your NBN medicine and you will like it.

      There is a NBN cult following by people who think they know what they are doing but really have no idea.

    • Economist says:

      03:35pm | 30/03/11

      @ Jim, @ Against the Man, I have no doubt that the NBN will go over budget, but stop the nonsense that the Liberals would do it better.

      The Joint Strike Fighter, original estimate $10.5B for 100 planes, current cost $16.5B for 100 planes, but no planes delivered. Baby Bonus original estimates were 2003/4-$260M, 2004/5 - $390M and 2005/6 $510M. By 2005/6 it was around $1B (Possibly this indicates a policy success, but once controlled for natural growth turns out it’s a waste of money, a dog of a policy continued to some extent by Labor). It turns out, Childcare rebate (Libs 30%), over budget, Ghan rail link, over budget, IT outsourcing, over budget, Original NT intervention over budget, Pacific Solution over budget. All of these are Liberal policies and programs. The point I’m trying to make, if it’s not already obvious, is that both sides of politics rarely get it right.

      Now before you all go, see we should leave it to the private sector, currently of the 15 mining, oil and gas projects costing more than $2B approved since early 2000 only one was delivered on time and budget. Out of an approximate total value of between $80-100B current cost blowouts are $8B and potentially growing. Of course this isn’t a big deal given commodity prices, however if I was a shareholder I’d still be a little peeved, but it shows neither sector can get it right. Also name one PPP that’s been delivered to the public on time and budget?  < Queue sound of crickets> Thought so. 

      So lets judge the NBN project for what it is a major piece of infrastructure that has the potential to significantly transform our economy. As for technological progress making it obsolete, is this the same technological progress concept your banking on to save us from Climate Change?

    • L. says:

      05:27pm | 30/03/11

      “Also name one PPP that’s been delivered to the public on time and budget?  < Queue sound of crickets> Thought so.  “

      What’s a PPP?

    • Tator says:

      11:11pm | 30/03/11

      Public Private Partnership, These were invented by the Major Government in Great Britain in the mid 1990’s, I believe they began appearing in Australia in the early 2000’s and started in Victoria under the guise of Partnerships Victoria, implemented by the Bracks ALP Government in 2000 and other states followed that blueprint.

    • Economist says:

      03:45pm | 30/03/11

      Whoops that should have been cue

    • Miki says:

      04:25pm | 30/03/11

      I suspect that much of the angst shown towards the NBN comes from people who live in states where investment in public infrastructure is an alien concept.

    • Ray says:

      10:54pm | 30/03/11

      Given his reservations, the author surprises by his evident faith in the NBN project. He assumes that the NBN project is financially viable.  In the absence of a cost-benefit analysis—thanks to the vehement resistance of the Govt—, this is surprising coming from a business school academic.

    • simon says:

      10:21am | 31/03/11

      The NBN is barely viable now, there is little margin for error. It’s the wrong strategy anyway, wireless is the way and over time this will be proven. Labor are looking very foolish continuing with this white elephant!!!

    • Rationalist says:

      04:22pm | 31/03/11

      Now here is a man that has exerience in building a national network and, unlike Conroy, has the ability to think rationally and look at the issue from a numvber of angles.

      I think the NBN in its current form is a completely unjustifiable spend. The sum of money being put forward is just obscene.  I would prefer to see

      a) the government actually do some analysis on cost/benefit
      b) advice from outside experts considered, namely Korea and U.S

      Personally, I believe some mix of fibre optic and wireless is ideal given our geography. 

      But I fear its all to late, Conroy doesn’t seem to comprehend any thought that occurrs outside the space between his own ears.

    • George says:

      07:07am | 01/04/11

      acotrel says: 08:19am | 30/03/11 - Are you talking about Workchoices#2 ?

      Text book ALP response straight out ALP HQ Web 2.0 Communications Policy!  “If an ALP has to respond to an opinion which does not favour ALP party line mention Workchoices”.

      One can’t help but think that ‘Workchoices” must be obscurely tattooed in all of ALP supporters’ anatomies.

    • Becky says:

      11:39am | 14/06/11

      Glad I’ve fnailly found something I agree with!

    • Sara says:

      12:34pm | 25/04/12

      A few IMPORTANT things people appear to have overlooked about the NBN.

      1. if you have multiple phone points in your house on your current landline - and you are going to be forced to switch to the NBN to keep a landline - you have to pay the get the house rewired just to get the same landline service you now have. Not cheap.

      2.  if you only want a landline and not internet, several RSPs are already only offering bundled plans so to keep a landline you may be either forced to pay for internet you don’t want or have a very limited choice in the RSPs you can use.

      3.  if you use a back-to-base alarm, personal alarm system (for medical emergencies) etc., there is absolutely no guarantee these will work with the fibre.  eg. here’s a quote from a Telstra brochure but this is NOT a problem specific to Telstra:  ”  (Most existing devices will be supported by a home phone service on the NBN. However, some older landline telephone handsets (such as a dial/rotary phone), back to base alarm systems, ersonal response systems (medical alert/emergency call systems) and fax machines may not work. Please check with the manufacturer/provider to check if your device is compatible.”

      4.  a landline phone on NBN is going to require battery backup for it to work if there is a power outage.  Another small but contant cost and what’s the bet many people, just being normal people, forget to change the battery.

      I keep reading on many forums that people, especially older people, don’t want the NBN because they don’t understand it.  Actually I think many of them DO understand it very well. But because they just want the landline they currently have, and don’t want or need an internet correction, they know this is going to be much worse for them under the NBN.

 

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