It should come as no great surprise that the Federal Government’s Climate Commission has produced a new report with dire warnings backing Labor and the Greens’ case for a carbon tax.

Powered by political puffery. Photo: AP

The report would really have created headlines if it said climate change was not real or that a carbon tax was not a necessary part of measures to prevent it, along with carbon sequestration.

There was nothing much new, apart from a claim that sea levels could now rise up to one metre by the turn of the century, which is higher than even the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s top range forecast of 0.18m to 0.76m.

The commission said the oceans around Australia were rising faster than the rest of the world - and they were rising fastest on the northern coastline, placing infrastructure such as Brisbane Airport under threat.

Interviewed on the ABC with report author Prof Will Steffan, chief climate commissioner Prof Tim Flannery said reasons for variations were “complicated” and depended on various factors, one of which could be land sinkage.

If some Pacific islands are gradually disappearing, is the sea rising or the islands sinking, as some sceptic scientists have long claimed?

And while Brisbane could be in for a hard time with more frequent flooding, ports further north apparently won’t be at much risk judging by planned massive expansions to coal export facilities including Gladstone, Abbott Point and Hay Point. This will cater for increases in exports of more than 90 million tonnes to a total of 250 million tonnes of coal a year by 2015, or more if rail infrastructure could also be developed.

At Gladstone, existing stockpiles sit on reclaimed land just a couple of metres above sea level, a big new coal terminal is planned on low-lying Wiggins Island and less than a kilometre away, land clearing is progressing on Curtis Island near the water’s edge in the Great Barrier Reef World Heritage Area. This will cater for the first of several huge Liquified Natural Gas plants costing a total of around $60 billion, with the blessing of State and Federal Governments.

All this seems at odds with the Climate Commission’s predictions about sea level rises and the effects of CO2 emissions from fossil fuels driving climate change.

How can the Federal Government justify a plan to tax Australia’s 1000 worst polluters, compensate those that are “trade exposed”, over-compensate low and middle-income earners for rising costs and somehow expect all of this to have some effect on world climate?

Unlike the Greens, I would not advocate curtailing the coal industry which now contributes an essential $50 billion a year to our economy. But it must be rank hypocrisy or stupidity for the government to continue exploiting what it says it accepts is a major culprit in driving climate change.

You can’t have it both ways. We do not live in a bubble where we can control our own climate such as the futuristic world depicted in the old sci-fi film classic, Logan’s Run, yet we continue to ship as much coal to countries without our stringent emission controls as our ports can handle.

We also plan to ship most of our lower-emission LNG overseas to places such as Japan and China for a few cents a litre when much more could be utilised domestically to convert older coal fired power stations and even power our national car and truck fleets rather than relying on diminishing and expensive OPEC oil supplies.

Our massive reserves of coal seam gas could push concerns about Peak Oil into the background as it can be readily converted to petroleum products or used directly as a fuel, with companies such as Ford, Mercedes and Honda producing models overseas running successfully on compressed natural gas.

That should be a topic on its own which I hope to revisit, and which both governments and Opposition should consider if they are serious about tackling our carbon dioxide emissions.

Meanwhile, the Climate Comission again emphasised there is no question about global warming, claiming the science is settled and most world governments accept it is happening.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard recently said this was accepted “by every reputable climate scientist in the world”, but there are many who would disagree, including emininent international scientists Profs Richard Lindzen, Henrik Svensmark, John Christy, Dr Ferenc Miskolczi, Dr Miklos Zagoni, our own Profs Bob Carter, Ian Plimer, Dr David Evans plus more than 30,000 US scientists who have signed a petition refuting man-made global warming.

With so much at stake, it highlights the fact we really do need a proper scientific debate at a national level rather than another report by a government-sanctioned commission to sort out these claims.

The latest report will do virtually nothing to convince the many sceptics and others opposed to a carbon tax who will regard it as just more hot air.

294 comments

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    • thatmosis says:

      06:10am | 25/05/11

      Jooliar Gillrudd and her ilk will say anythig at anythime to try and convince the people of Australia that the Sky is falling. They have their payed and bought Climate Committee which has looked at the flawed science added up 2 and 2 and come to the conclusion thats the answer is five which correltes to thegovernments position. They have the rabid Grees sayng that we need to send Australia back into the dark ages to save the planet all by ourselves and we have an army of spin doctors and trolls all spouting the same reteric that has been found wanting over the last few years. The science is not settled unless of course you negate all those scientists that disagree with the Governments position but we are stil looking down the barrel of a Tax on nothing for nothing except to make each and every Australian a lot lighter in the back pocket and destroy the viability of our export businesses. This is Government by deception not concenus and all to make a lame duck PM look good.

    • ZSRenn says:

      09:31am | 25/05/11

      I agree as this commission is nothing more than a George Orwell style thought police organization. If you want proof look at its members

      Tim Flannery- Once called for sulfur to be pumped into the atmosphere to reduce the effects of climate change.

      In 2005 he predicted Sydney’s dams would be empty within 2 years.
      In 2008 he predicted that by 2009 Adelaide would be out of water.

      He has made fortune writing about the effects of climate change for decades and his mind was obviously made up.

      Will Steffen criticized the media for giving both sides of the warming debate a voice. He feels that only the believers in warming should have a say.

      Suzanne Elliot who has been running a media based company designed to pump alarmist warnings into our newspapers blogs television etc for 16 years.

      Mr Roger Beale is an economist and public policy expert.

      Professor Lesley Hughes is the Head of the Department of Biological Sciences at Macquarie University and an expert on the impacts of climate change on species and ecosystems.

      What other result was this group ever going to come up with?

      What we really need in Australia and the world is some real debate not this rubbish that is so blatantly contrived shoved down our throats!

    • PTom says:

      09:45am | 25/05/11

      All those scientists what a joke Medical Doctors with only basic sciences what that High Schools training.

      What a joke the 30000 petition is after reading the guide lines it is so general any one who has and university training is a scientists. So I am scientists too accroding to their guideline because I have had “basic science training” and “trained in computer and mathematical methods” like so many that working in Banking trade floors or government treasury’s

      Ian Pilmer a mining director, Bob Carter a member of IPA yep no conflict of insterest there.

      There is always people who have such a good life living at the expense of other that refuse see the changes that are need to protect the future.

    • ZSRenn says:

      11:49am | 25/05/11

      @PTom Sounds like a very reputable bunch to me!

      But you can just dismiss the current list of petition signers which includes
      9,029 PhD;
      7,157 MS;
      2,586 MD and DVM; and
      12,715 BS or equivalent academic degrees with
      most of the MD and DVM signers also have underlying
      degrees in basic science with a wave of your keyboard
      if you like.

    • Denny Crane says:

      12:04pm | 25/05/11

      PTom - Dr David Evans was on the government gravy train and he came to the conclusion that it was a fraud. he did not go to work for a mining company. He is being honest. Too bad people like flannery cannot do the same. The gravy train is too big for greedy grubs like him to walk away.
      I’ll start listening to these clowns when Combet sells his seaside house, when rudd does the same and stops flying to the moon, when Al Gore sells 4 of his 5 houses, when flannery quits his job with Sir Richard Brazen and Virgin Galactic and his job with panasonic, and finally when gillard gives up her gas gussling commonwealth car. Hypocrites.

    • PTom says:

      04:55pm | 25/05/11

      ZSRenn,
      They got 30,000 from across all fields that relate to climate change from impact on humans to future housing requirements.

      Based on a survey scientist agree with Climate Change and those most in the field climatologists return result of 97% while those most anaingst are Petroleum geologists at 47% like Ian Pilmer.
      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090119210532.htm

      What I find really insteresting is the support of a website of 30,000 American Climate Scientist against back in 1997 and if none have changed there careers or minds in 10 years would mean in 2007 there would be well over 150,000 Climate Sceintist in the world.

      Yet those that conduct the survey only had a list of 10,200 experts in 2007. I wonder were all those Climate Scientist disappear to.

    • ZSRenn says:

      06:08pm | 25/05/11

      @ PTom I am not interested in your conjecture.

      Here are 30,000 signees that say No!

      Now live and on line!

      Not the 3000 surveyed or 10% of the total of signees

      Of course those being paid to promote this lie will continue to defend their stance or in the case of Climategate produce false evidence to promote it.

    • Maree says:

      06:16pm | 25/05/11

      Thatmosis: Yep; The Sky is falling: Thats called the “Henny Penny”  or “Chicken Little” effect. Next it will be “Salem Witch Trials” if you do not agree ! Just shows you we are going back to the dark ages. Will someone trade my car in for a horse ?

    • persephone says:

      06:31am | 25/05/11

      But you haven’t actually read it…..

      I wonder why not?

    • MarK says:

      06:55am | 25/05/11

      Oh he hasn’t seen the truth yet pers.

      this is the critical decade as the report clearly states.

      The science is settled. Scientists have spoken and we really don’t have the understanding to question them.

      Well I guess you might having lectured at University on the subject, done plenty at the community level agitating before the rest of knew the truth and setting and advising on policy in the area.

      I have read the report 3 times now and on each reading the need for action is made more clear. I am sure with your extensive background and experience you agree.

      Given this a fiercely independent report the government is beholden to act but it must rethink the start point that it has been hitting. We need a start price well north of $40 for the Carbon tax. The science is settled as Tory pointed out. We need to shock the system.

      $75 a tonne appears reasonable to me. We only have a decade to act. We must be firm. No compensation as after all only the big polluters will pay as Julia has assured us. A phasing out of the coal industry.

      I know you have kids and they deserve it as do you for vindication of your hard work.

      De-carboisation is the only answer. The report and Tory’s justification settled that.

      We need to discussthe Carbon Tax not anything else.

      Since this is all settled what is your start point and why Pers. I only ask because of your extensive understanding if this issue and your obvious exposure to intellectuals when you gave your University lectures.

    • Super D says:

      06:59am | 25/05/11

      Because its alarmist crap not worth the carbon embedded in the document?

    • jf says:

      07:39am | 25/05/11

      Have you read all the objections of each of the scientists that are signatories to the Petition Project?

      If not, why not?

    • TimB says:

      07:39am | 25/05/11

      Perse, where does he say he hasn’t read it?

    • No 1 Rosie says:

      07:40am | 25/05/11

      Persetelephone

      Come on you are better than that? I have always admired you because of your tenacity to stick to your beliefs in your counter-attacks. There is never a touch of sarcasm or nastiness.

      I am certain thatmosis would have read this article, if that is what you are talking about. However, if it is the Climate Commission Report, I don’t think it was necessary for any of us to read it as we could have easily predicted the outcome. We have been hearing so much of the same thing in at least the last 5 years.

      Julia Gillard and the Greens wanted the report as an added advantage for the acceptance by the people to the ‘carbon tax’ they will impose on the people of Australia and they got it. I don’t understand why the fuss now, not unless they didn’t expect the many Australians that don’t want the ‘carbon tax.’ This is not a good sign for the Gillard Labor Party in the next Elections which would have to be a great concern to the Labor Party.

      I believe this Climate Commission Report and the fact she lied to us hasn’t done the Labor Party any favours. The report would have been OK if Flannery hadn’t mentioned that in the next decade floods like we had recently in Brisbane will happen twice a month or 10 times in a month. Unfortunately we will associate the ‘carbon tax’ which Gillard lied to us about with the Report and I think it was doomed right from the day Gillard changed her mind and introduced a ‘carbon tax’ that she promised would never ever introduce.

      The ‘carbon tax’ will go through with the help of the Greens, so the quicker we get the details the quicker we can move this debate to the details and it’s effectiveness on us and our nation.

    • persephone says:

      07:58am | 25/05/11

      Super D

      it just seems a bit pointless to me, writing a critique of a report when you haven’t even read it.

      Notice no one here is saying I’m wrong in my surmise!!

      Should put my name down to write an article critiquing the Opposition’s policies for the next election….I know they haven’t been written yet, but that shouldn’t be a barrier…

    • dovif says:

      08:04am | 25/05/11

      All MPs gets a free car from the Australian Public

      Of 80 or so ALP MPs only 3 though Climate change was important enough for them to get a hybrid car. That includes our PM. That should tells you the hypocrasy of this incompetant government.

      When in reality, all the ALP parliamentary team including the PM, do not think that they should do anything about climate change, WHEN IT IS FREE, how could this mob tell us we have to pay for it

    • John C Fairfax says:

      08:27am | 25/05/11

      How can climate change science be settlled if ocean algae vegetable matter and photosynthesis warming has not been measured and taken into account? Or has it, and if so where is the data?

    • persephone says:

      09:20am | 25/05/11

      Rosie

      hate to lose your respect!

      I’m referring to the author of the article (not thatmosis). It’s obvious from the piece he’s written that he hasn’t actually read the report.

      I haven’t either (yet) but I don’t go around writing critiques of it, either!

      (BTW, other posters - note the ‘yet’. When I’ve read the thing, I’ll start quoting from it. You’ll then say ‘but you haven’t read it’. You will be wrong.)

      John C Fairfax

      Given the scope of climate science, I’m pretty sure those things have been taken into account. When you have thousands of scientists contributing information, it’s a fair bet that any relevant information has been included.

      Not having read the report (yet), I’m fairly sure it builds on the thousands and thousands of other reports and scientific papers which are out there.

      As for finding them - well, you can google as well as I can, but otherwise I’d recommend looking at the IPCC site.

      It can be a bit hard to find academic papers on the net - they’re not always available in downloadable form - but you should at least find pointers.

      The problem is compounded by the fact that the debate in scientific circles was settled over a decade ago, so a lot of the relevant stuff isn’t on line.

    • jf says:

      09:27am | 25/05/11

      dovif says:08:04am | 25/05/11

      “All MPs gets a free car from the Australian Public

      Of 80 or so ALP MPs only 3 though Climate change was important enough for them to get a hybrid car.”

      This is a bit like the less than 5% of people who, when they fly, voluntarily pay the carbon levy.

      Hypocrites abound.

    • Matt says:

      09:57am | 25/05/11

      It must be so refreshing to be able to assume things have been done and everything has been taken into account for this report, now the science is settled.

      There really isn’t much point reading the report, given the 100% certainty of AGW. A carbon tax of over $50/tonne is certainly the answer, and anyone who thinks differently is a denier, and utterly stupid.

    • RyaN says:

      09:58am | 25/05/11

      @persephone: “Notice no one here is saying I’m wrong in my surmise!!” No and no-one is saying you are right either, we just prefer not to jump to wild, unsubstantiated conclusions.

    • No 1 Rosie says:

      10:08am | 25/05/11

      Thank you persetelephone.

      If everyone were civil to each other about this debate I think we wouldn’t be as confused as we are today.

      One thing I have learnt is that we all should clean up the environment and then strive to keep it clean. Something needs to be done and it will cost billions of $$$$$$ to do it.

      The problem I am having at the moment is the Minority Govt. I believe our PM lied to the Australian people to please the Greens so as the Gillard Labor Party remains in power. This with the controversial way she became our PM was never a good way to impose a ‘carbon tax’ based on a scientific report.

      It looks like the Greens are going to compromise on their original demands to get the carbon tax started. Start off low and increase once it has been put into place. Again a deceitful way of going about it, don’t you think?

    • TimB says:

      10:14am | 25/05/11

      “I’m referring to the author of the article (not thatmosis). It’s obvious from the piece he’s written that he hasn’t actually read the report.”

      How is it obvious Perse? As you say you haven’t read it, so how can you know that Mikkelsen hasn’t read it? I can’t see where he admits as much so your statement baffles me.

    • Anubis says:

      10:24am | 25/05/11

      @Persephony - you said “As for finding them - well, you can google as well as I can,”. How can that be - Tory implicitly said that “Google” experts are wrong yet here you are telling people to Google it???

    • ZSRenn (View by Newest Listings) says:

      12:02pm | 25/05/11

      @ Pers Don’t worry you will never lose my respect as you never had it.

      It is so obvious that you are a paid hack as I could never give you any respect.

      Either that or you have absolutely no life at all.

      How was the 4 weeks holiday? It must have been nice to get away from the keyboard.

      You sweep around with false statements and then refute arguments with other false claims burying the discussions in a sea of bullshit.

      Basically you destroy any chance we have at debate in a logical fashion. I am going to start a punch campaign

      “View by Newest listings”

      Lets stamp out these trolls and view by newest listings so that we can read the comments of people who have not been paid to get up at 3 every morning and paid to comment all day.

    • Brian B says:

      01:11pm | 25/05/11

      As MarK says, Pers said it, so it must be true!! She’s lectured at University!!

      Tears rolling down my cheeks…...........no offence -  really Pers., love your work.

    • luke says:

      01:48pm | 25/05/11

      Why is it worth reading a report written by a group of government sponsored scientists. Anyone who believes a carbon tax will halt climate change is surely lacking oxygen to the brain. We all know climate change is occurring and happening right now, it has been for eons. A carbon tax will not reduce carbon emissions, look at Europe, they have put a price on carbon and yet still emit more carbon now than when there was no price on carbon. It is time the Gillard government was honest and stopped resorting to scaremongering and ridicule to sway their argument. They should call the carbon tax for what it is, a tax for more revenue, it is not a tax to reduce carbon emissions.

    • RyaN says:

      02:12pm | 25/05/11

      @Mark: you have converted me, I am with you on this, the science is settled and we are too stupid to question it, but we must now act.
      I don’t agree with the $75 a tonne though, I mean the science is settled, it should be $400 per tonne and no compensation. Won’t someone think about the children?

    • AAAdam says:

      02:12pm | 25/05/11

      “it just seems a bit pointless to me, writing a critique of a report when you haven’t even read it”

      However, that on its own doesn’t make his critique incorrect. I don’t have to read a report to know if it is perceived to have been tainted by bias. I also don’t have to read a report to know the manner in which it was developed was fundamentally flawed. That being said, feel free to point me towards any part of the report where you believe his critique is inaccurate.

    • Anubis says:

      02:24pm | 25/05/11

      AAAdam - you’ve developed a bit of a stutter there lad.

    • persephone says:

      03:09pm | 25/05/11

      Scroll down a bit, guys - you’ll find a post where Mikkelson admits he hasn’t read the report.

      So my assumption (based on the contents of his article) was 100% correct.

    • AAAdam says:

      03:24pm | 25/05/11

      “you’ve developed a bit of a stutter there lad”

      Lol. Glad to see you noticed. My plan to differentiate myself from others that share my name must be working smile

    • Cate P says:

      09:17pm | 25/05/11

      Have you read it Persephone?  I flicked through the pdf available on line.  It is full of endless graphs and highlighted paragraphs with the scariest bits, mostly repeated and amplified from previous scare campaigns.  Also they have fallen back on the old faithful the Great Barrier Reef.  Nothing new there, just the old sky-is-falling stuff.  The sceptics have covered it all already, it hasn’t changed the case at all.

    • ZSRenn says:

      10:04pm | 25/05/11

      @Cate P. Roger Beale was the head of the great Barrier Reef preservation committee for years or maybe still is.

      He has been peddling this scare campaign since the 90’s

      Of course they include it in this new scare campaign.

      That is why he is there!

    • MarK says:

      06:32am | 25/05/11

      Oh please.

      The science is settled.

      it is irrefutable. You sound like “Dr Bumfluff from the Convenient Truthiness Association” and I see you have included a Google found link (no doubt) to back up your scant science on the issue.

      The science is settled.

      As such the Prime Minister accepted the fiercely independent report from that independent panel she appointed to review the IPCC’s work and augment it with their own expertise.

      having got the independent report and reading it she now accepts this decade is critical.

      It is much like the reports into gambling and smoking that have put the government onto the front foot to fight those other social disgraces.

      The government gets independent reports. It reads them. It acts.

      Having this report full of settled science and not “ggogled form Bumfluff inc” (LAWL) ensures that these projects you tlak of will be stopped.

      Coal as t eh great carbon polluter must be stopped. Green jobs will flourish anyway.

      Gillard has the reportand now she must act.

      yes yes Combet has indicated a Carbon price well south of 440 but that was pre report.

      It is all settled now. We need to shock the system. We nned to stop this investment on coal and carbon based energy and mining. We need to redirect it tho the Grenn future.

      If Bill Gates can have vision so can we. We too can have an economy like Europe. Strong, robust and Green.

      Please stop with the dissent. It is pitiful and pointless. Tory has pointed out is is uselss using Google or the internet to back a point.

      The science is settled. Australia must act. The government has and independent report form scientists. This make is irrefutable.

      We must act.To delay is to deny the setteld science.

      $75 as a start point.  decade to phase out the coal industry to give the room in the economy for the Green jobs.

      It makes sense and we will see Combet who is an honest man and one that truly believes in the science announce his changes too.

      Well south of 440 mocks the urgency of the science. Compensation is not necessary.

      Less talk more action.

      Our kids and grandkids deserve it. even china is taking action and reducing stuff. If they can do it so can we. We need to lead and cut hard just like Britain and its non negotiable cuts.

      A decade.A critical decade. And the clock is ticking.

    • Reg says:

      07:51am | 25/05/11

      Hilarious

    • rob foster says:

      08:20am | 25/05/11

      MarK, you are a dangerously, seriously, utterly nutcase….You have been brainwashed old mate….

    • Old Man Emu says:

      08:22am | 25/05/11

      For starters Mark, there was nothing independent about this report. The Climate Commissions sole reason for existence is to drum up support through whatever means for a carbon dioxide tax. And computer modelling (that has thus far been 100% incorrect in its predictions) does not and never has amounted to scientific evidence.

      The most interesting aspect of the report, however, is how little the predicted changes (however unlikely) actually matter. Basically, it is asking to change the way an entire economy operates to save us from…. well, not much at all really.

      In fact, the positive effects of increased CO2 in the atmosphere - increased crop yields and the like have meant that 50 million people are alive today who wouldn’t be - far outweigh the negative. On that the science is definitely in and the weakening of the alarmism associated with each new report is proof.

      Your point about Europe is a joke as well. The European economy has been a shamble for a decade now and much of the union are unravelling their green policies as they have seen the folly and utter contemptuous arrogance in their ways, whereby they risk the security and lives of millions of people to satisfy the pipedream after having fallen for the deceptions of the money hungry people peddling the notion that humans are to blame for all that ails yer… naughty, naughty zoot.

      The primary goal from the start for this hysteria has been a socialist movement to redistribute income under the guise of appearing green.

      The real fact is, that no matter whether or not the pseudo-science so far conducted is true, the consequences are so minor that to jeopardise economic security is a folly of the highest order.

    • 1+1 does equal 2 says:

      08:57am | 25/05/11

      “The science is settled”

      Science is NEVER settled.!!! Saying that it is flies in the face of science as a whole.

    • watty says:

      08:57am | 25/05/11

      Surely scince is never “settled”?

      As for China “acting” either you are blind or just a stranger to the truth

      Quote:Last year, China consumed 3.15 billion metric tons of coal—three times more than in 2000—much of it mined and processed in six northern China provinces. Inner Mongolia alone produced 782 million metric tons, ahead of the 741 million metric tons produced in neighboring Shanxi Province. Chinese energy experts and academics anticipate that, at current levels of growth, the country will need to produce over 4 billion metric tons annually by 2020 to keep up with demand.

    • TimB says:

      09:11am | 25/05/11

      God MarK, they really don’t get you raspberry

      In hysterics over here BTW.

    • Anubis says:

      09:14am | 25/05/11

      Who kidnapped MarK and replaced him with this Persephone clone. Has anyone received a ransom demand yet?

    • zoe says:

      09:24am | 25/05/11

      Don’t worry MarK wasn’t completely wasted, I laughed.

    • NicoleG says:

      09:29am | 25/05/11

      Hehehe. Hook.Line.And.Sinker. Not just on this tread either.

    • Matt says:

      09:53am | 25/05/11

      Hallelujah! MarK, you have converted me. This is a serious issue, with the science well and truly settled. Experts from our little community here, lecturers and policy writers have decreed that it is, in fact, even more settled than the theory of gravity! So we must act!

      Unless we all want to live in a flooded dustbowl with hurricanes and bush fires ripping our poor country apart on a daily basis, we have to act fast!

      I suggest we strip defense force funding, open the borders to asylum seekers (that way, we can save all that money being spent on nasty detention centres), and postpone the NBN so that we can put all our efforts into decarbonising Australia for the good of the world! My prediction: Gillard is the second coming of Jesus Christ. You heard it here first, folks!

      Skeptics, you should all be ashamed of yourselves for worrying about cost of living pressures and standards of living. The science is settled, and everything else are false claims and lies! Think of your great-great-great-great-great grandchildren! They deserve a carbon-free society. Otherwise, you’re an evil person for thinking otherwise.


      Love,
      A Skeptic who has Seen the Light

    • Anubis says:

      10:22am | 25/05/11

      For Humanites sake - think of the children - Waaaaaaaaah

    • Reggie says:

      10:42am | 25/05/11

      I think the joke is on MarK. No one would seriously have commissioned such a paper without knowing full-well how the deniers would react and MarK has let no-one down, although to be honest, (as one always should be,) I find it difficult to follow his gyrations as he goes from sarcasm to glassy-eyed denial.

      All exploitation of resources is finite, but MarK goes on and on and on….

    • Nafe says:

      10:59am | 25/05/11

      Is there a like button for MarK?

    • stevem says:

      11:07am | 25/05/11

      MarK, You are in danger of biting off your tongue. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one embedded so far into a cheek before.

    • MarK says:

      11:34am | 25/05/11

      Reggie why the hate?

      I have read the report three times. Really.

      It changed my life.

      The science is in and it is settled. What more needs to be said? I never have once in the past said the climate doesn’t change. Indeed I has Ms Kelly following me around for days trying to trap me with some logic of it not changing.

      It changes.

      Now we know why. Pers also helped me understand with her brilliant explanation of it has to be CO2 because all the scientists ruled everything else. And if you rule everything else out then you are left with rising CO2.

      If you are left with CO2 then you can’t deny that a chaotic and complex system like climate MUST have changed because of it. Now we know this is true because Pers has agitated at local level for change, she has written and had policy implemented and has lectured at university on the subject. She knows this stuff. It really does follow. Climate doesn’t “just” change. There has to be a cause. Chaotic and complex system don’t just evolve. They need a catalyst. Gosh why can’t you see? I can. I am not denying I am backing the Gillard government to act and act fast.

      Why are we talking about the settled science. I bet John hasn’t done the things Pers has done – she lectured at University for god’s sake. Other scientists would have been there that day on the campus I bet. And the science is settled.

      The Report is clear and I have read it three times. I even found references to older works by Professor Will Stefan that are the same as he put in the report. Stuff from 2009. If it was good back then and he is convinced then hey I am too. He is a scientist and I cannot hope to understand it so I must defer to him.

      Same with Julia. She has to act. I want her to be honest and make Combet be honest too. They set up a fiercely independent Commission to research and evaluate the science. God knows I can’t understand it. Climate is chaotic and complex. Thankfully though, like Pers suggested, they were able to see through all this complexity and realise that since only CO2 had changed that must have made the world hotter. See? It is settled. Why can’t you see it?

      Thus as these scientist have said to avoid catastrophic climate change we need to act in a decade. We must lead the world. Yes China is do lots of stuff to reduce its emissions. We get told this constantly by iansand who is a lawyer. Lawyers always check their facts so I have to trust him. Law is like a science too. In fact iansand went to uni, maybe not to lecture, but he was there with other scientists so he would have an understanding.

      So we need to act Reg. You know it and I know it.

      Enough of the science. As Tory said it is settled. All those Truthers like Dr Bumfluff and the like can have their conspiracy theories it matters not. Tory blew them apart yesterday in that expose of the dangers of Google warriors and not being a scientists. As she researched ALL the world’s leading scientists believe the science is settled.

      Now to the real issue. After the independent panels report we need to nip this in the bud pronto.

      Good God man there is only a decade. We need a shock. We need a Carbon Tax set at a level to change behaviour. I am sure Combet will be reconsidering his well south of $40 level. After receiving this report that is intolerable.

      The tax needs to be set high at like $75, here I am averaging the Greens $50-100 suggestions as being prudent to start it up at. This of course needs to be ramped up quickly to force us to action in this “Critical Decade”. Hand in hand we must begin to wean the world off coal or price it so high we can purchase the credits to offset our greed elsewhere. The coal industry is finished. We can all see that. And thank god, we need the workers for the new Green economy that will flourish.

      Reg I respect your opinion and I am a bit of a Johnny (hahahahahaha not Howard) come lately to the science is settled brigade.

      What price should Labor set the tax given the independent advice they have received and the seriousness of the situation conveyed in that message.

      I would really value input.

    • Matt says:

      12:38pm | 25/05/11

      You forgot to mention, MarK, that the Market Forces are behind this 100%, and will eventually set the carbon price based on said Market Forces.

      You can’t argue with it. The science is settled, and the economics is close to being settled. Anything else is a bunch of false claims. They are experts, for crying out loud! They predicted the floods in Queensland, the bush fires, and the droughts (not to mention the GFC) years before these things happened. Tim Flannery is my personal hero, and a veritable saint in my books. If you want to look at a climate change expert (other than persephone), look no further.

    • nossy says:

      12:43pm | 25/05/11

      @MarK - I am now one of your most devoted readers MarK !

    • LC says:

      12:48pm | 25/05/11

      “The tax needs to be set high at like $75, here I am averaging the Greens $50-100 suggestions as being prudent to start it up at. “

      Please for the love of [insert deity here] tell me this is tongue-in-cheek.

    • nossy says:

      12:55pm | 25/05/11

      @@MarK - however MarKy having read all your other blogs now I realise its one HUGE pisstake ! Didnt realise you guys on NEWSTART had so much time on your hands !  hahahahha Neve rknow one day a job might come along !  Good one MarKy !  12 out of 10 fella - should have saved that one up for April 1st ! Ohh well its back to planting trees for you fella - say you can do that with your ‘Work For the Dole Program” !  hahahahhahaahah

    • big daddy says:

      12:59pm | 25/05/11

      I might be mistaken guys but it doesn’t sound to me like you need to worry about MarK’s sanity. Sounds like he’s taking the piss, using some very heavily masked sarcasm.
      Either that or, yes, he does need some serious meds!

    • Kevin says:

      01:55pm | 25/05/11

      @MarK
      I take it you think that the science isn’t settled.  In other words, you are saying that AGW might be real or it might not.  2 questions:
      1.  At what point would you regard the science as being settled?  For instance, is the science not settled if just one (reputable) dissenting view is given?
      2.  Would you consider action necessary if the science were, say, 95% settled?  In other words if you found the evidence persuasive but not absolutely convincing.
      Part of that consideration would be weighing up the consequences of doing something and being wrong and not doing anything and being wrong.

    • dovif says:

      03:00pm | 25/05/11

      Kevin

      That is the issue, science is NEVER settled, that is why we there are more discoveries, that is why scientists are still employed to do testing etc.

      Scientist still do not know about how the human body works, how our gene works, let alone how Earth or the Atmosphere works

      Years ago science was “settled” that the earth was flat, and people who try to say the earth was round was laugh at. That is how science work Theories are accepted and then new theories replaces old theories.

      Anyone who say that Science is settled is a liar

    • Matt says:

      03:15pm | 25/05/11

      The science is settled that dovif is a witch, and should be burned at the stake for his heretical views.

    • Kevin says:

      03:40pm | 25/05/11

      @dovif
      I agree that every scientific theory is just that, “a theory”, and in that sense the science is never settled.
      However, in deciding whether or not to take action in relation to science, from a human point of view we do take views on whether the science is “settled”.  Otherwise we would never do anything like sending people to the moon or administering medicine, etc.

    • MarK says:

      03:54pm | 25/05/11

      “Kevin says:
      01:55pm | 25/05/11
      @MarK
      I take it you think that the science isn’t settled.  In other words, you are saying that AGW might be real or it might not.  2 questions:”

      Hi and sigh. Really?

      “1.  At what point would you regard the science as being settled?  For instance, is the science not settled if just one (reputable) dissenting view is given?”

      It is settled. The Climate Commission Report is in. It was made by experts that are fiercely independent. Tory convinced me yesterday.
      Why go over stale territory?
      I mean every reputable scientist in the world says so. Tory has the information from research so it must be true. This is not a Google fact.

      Hell the fiercely independent Climate Commission agrees. They are scientists so how could one as lowly as me argue the point? They say it is settled ergo it is settled.

      We now need to move on to fixing the problem.
      “2.  Would you consider action necessary if the science were, say, 95% settled?  In other words if you found the evidence persuasive but not absolutely convincing.
      Part of that consideration would be weighing up the consequences of doing something and being wrong and not doing anything and being wrong. “

      My God Kevin.

      The settled science says we have 10 years to fix it or face catastrophic climate decay.

      When someone who is a scientist and not a Google search says so it must be true 100%. It is like Pers says the enormously complex and chaotic system we call climate DOES NOT change without a reason. The scientists, the reputable ones worldwide at least, looked into this and found that the only thing that had changed was carbon. If it is nothing else it must be that. Hence carbon is the issue. Pers gave lectures at Uni and developed policy and agitated at grass root level on this very topic.

      She is an expert so I defer to her. Further proof of her expertise can be seen in the way the experts on the Climate Commission also found the science settled and carbon the culprit. Peer review in action.

      So spare me your percentagism. We are not interested inthat.

      Gillard commissioned a fiercely independent report. It says we have a decade to avoid climatic Armageddon.

      She must act and fast if she believes the report as I do. It must be effective action.

      As to cost well your price-taggery does you ill service sir. It will only cost Big Pollution anyway. Hot them hard so they change before they kill us. In any case the country will Green up like Europe and have an economy the envy of the world. This has been advocated by both Gillard and Brown. It is a no brainer. It has to happen.

      She has to drive it. South of $40 will not save us. She cannot deny. She must act.

    • Kevin says:

      04:35pm | 25/05/11

      @MarK
      yeah, yadda, yadda, yadda .....
      The joke isn’t that funny third time round.

    • MarK says:

      06:11pm | 25/05/11

      Well Kevin I have answered you.

      I am sorry if you seem to be coming down with Truthism and getting cold feet in the face of settled science.

      Dear me Warmists Brothers and Sisters - there is nothing to fear. Lets get the ball rolling with a high Carbon Tax.

      It is critical for our kids and grandkids. Don’t you have empathy for them kevin?

    • Richard says:

      06:30pm | 25/05/11

      @Kevin

      Agreed. What a snorefest. It’s like trolling in reverse. Usually a contentious one-liner sees the earnest toxic bores waffling on for hours, but in this case the toxic bore has been try-hard prattling away with barely a meh in response for his trouble.

    • MarK says:

      10:50pm | 25/05/11

      Wow Richard you too.

      Friend let me tell you the only thing toxic is Big Pollution.

      We need a firm carbon tax to battle Big Pollution

      The science is settled.

    • ZSRenn says:

      10:53pm | 25/05/11

      @ MarK I told you not to use sarcasm after all their are voters using the punch!

    • RyaN says:

      10:46am | 26/05/11

      @MarK: yes we can!

    • acotrel says:

      06:34am | 25/05/11

      @Thatmosis
      ‘destroy the viability of our export businesses. ‘

      What ‘viability’?  Do you believe we might be able to export some of our creative answers to the energy crisis?

    • BobM says:

      10:43am | 25/05/11

      Can I order 20,000 tonnes of creative answers please.

    • MarK says:

      07:48am | 25/05/11

      Absolutley.

      Gittins like me believes we need to go now and go hard.

      $75 a tonne carbon tax minimum. No compensation as only the big polluters pay anyway and a phasing out of the coal industry over the next decade.

      Sor such a critical decade the choice is clear ans stark. The fiercely independent Carbon Commission Report tells us this and Tory’s wonderful spirited defence of its justness and irrefutable settlednes in the science couples with gittens reasoned and respected views makes it a no brainer.

      A start up target of less than $40 a tonne is scandalous.

      Don’t you agree?

    • dovif says:

      08:17am | 25/05/11

      Ross Gittens is unbiase, lol, some people are gullible

      It is call Climate Change because the climate is always changing, and that allows them to blame every slight change in the climate on CO2. Gullible people will always falls for it

      Over the earth’s history, we have had Ice ages previously and we have had years where the arctic had tropical temparature. Since climate change are just caused by man made CO2, Man must be the cause of previous Ice Ages and tropical climate, since Climate had been changing since the dawn of time.

      And we keep hearing from non-scientists that the science is settled, the problems is science is never settled. It was a scientific theory for hundred of year that the Earth was flat.

      Scientific theories that had been accepted scientific truth for hundreds of year often get refuted, history is full of samples of this. Fact is science is about creating a theory, testing it, reaching a conclusion and finding peer agreement and it becomes an accepted theory

      Future theory can and will replace incomplete past theories, expecially in fields like the environment, where we knows very little about it

    • jf says:

      08:20am | 25/05/11

      “Even-handed”?

      Only someone committed to the idea of AGW and a tax to deal with it could see this article as even-handed. Not that the fact that is patently not even-handed doesn’t make his opinion valid but to call it even-handed makes a mockery of any balance that you may have on this debate.

      “Yet people with the highest standard of living in history are whingeing that they couldn’t possibly afford to pay a bit more for their electricity.”

      And here we have the rub. A celebrity journalist with a high income can definitely afford to “pay a bit more for their electricity”. What a smug wanker. Leaving aside the fact that the whole climate change debate has already had an impact on our lives, the way our tax revenue is spent and the way we spend our money, there are plenty of people, even in this country for whom a slight increase in the cost of electricity means the difference between sitting up at night in their lounge room during winter and going to bed at 6pm to beat the cold.

      Rich, smug, intellectually and morally superior fncking socialists. The worst of the worst.

    • Scranbag says:

      09:17am | 25/05/11

      The article is there for anyone to read and draw their own conclusions.

      Personal slagging of any author says nothing about their piece, and addresses none of the issues raised.

      Personal slagging? Utterly worthless.

    • David C says:

      09:25am | 25/05/11

      I am very sorry but Ross Gittins is not respected, toleratd more like it.
      There are plenty of well respected economists and scientists advocating different ways of dealing with climate change.  The debate about the way forward is far from settled

    • Scranbag says:

      10:10am | 25/05/11

      There’ll be a range of opinions, partly partisan based, about Gittins and his views.

      Gittins brief bio:
      “Ross Gittins AM is an Australian political and economic journalist and author.

      Gittins regularly writes for Fairfax publications The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, commentating on underlying economic issues and political economic policies.

      In 1993 he won the Citibank Pan Asia award for excellence in finance journalism.

      He celebrated his 30th year as the Herald’s economics editor in 2008, having assumed the position during the Fraser government in 1978.

      Gittins has a degree from the University of Newcastle and is an associate of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Australia.”
      Source: wikipedia - usual wiki cautions apply

      Brief Bio, SMH:
      “Ross Gittins is economics editor of The Sydney Morning Herald and an economic columnist for The Age. He has been a press fellow at Wolfson College, Cambridge, and a journalist-in-residence at the department of economics of the University of Melbourne. “

      The evidence of his career alone refutes the suggestion that he is not respected.

      Even handed: whichever policy, or whichever Government or Party, he is commenting on or criticising, his pieces maybe blunt but remain free of shrillness, unlike others in the field.

      Whether I agree with him, or not, the data he discusses is from sound and readily checked sources. 

      Whether I agree with him, or not, he is one of a very few Aus finance and economic commentators whose analyses are consistent in cool accuracy and quality.

      His piece above is there for anyone to read and form their own view of the actual content.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      11:44am | 25/05/11

      There is nothing even handed about his article.

      Trying to sound moderate and claim the middle ground when the agenda is partisan politics is dishonest.

    • John Mikkelsen says:

      12:11pm | 25/05/11

      @ jf, I thought you were referring to me until I read this bit: “And here we have the rub. A celebrity journalist with a high income can definitely afford to “pay a bit more for their electricity”  smile

    • Knemon says:

      12:34pm | 25/05/11

      @ Scranbag - thanks for the link. Gittens does make some interesting points, none better than highlighting the absolute hypocrisy of Tony Abbott’s stance (scaremongering) on this issue…Abbott tells business one story and relays a totally different one to the public, you can’t have it both ways Abbott aka Dr NO…which is it?

      I’ve said before that Abbott’s politics are taken straight from Dr Joseph Goebbels handbook of propaganda, his latest stance hasn’t changed my view. Goebbels was renowned for offering different opinions depending on who was his audience at the time, see the comparison?

    • dovif says:

      02:10pm | 25/05/11

      Knemon

      You do know that Goebel was a Socialist, Hitler and Goebel are both member of the Geman Socialist Workers Party.

      The Nazi lies, they try to control what the population can and can’t do. In every ways they are similar to the ALP today

    • dovif says:

      02:10pm | 25/05/11

      Knemon

      You do know that Goebel was a Socialist, Hitler and Goebel are both member of the Geman Socialist Workers Party.

      The Nazi lies, they try to control what the population can and can’t do. In every ways they are similar to the ALP today

    • Scranbag says:

      05:05pm | 25/05/11

      “scientific theory for hundred of year that the Earth was flat”

      Another old chestnut.

      Someone with a bit of curiosity might like to amuse themselves for a few minutes checking out this one.

      Key words Flat Earth should do it. That and a cool head.

      Time for me to go. Busy night.

      regards
      Scranbag

    • persephone says:

      07:26pm | 25/05/11

      dovif

      No, it wasn’t scientific theory ever that the earth was flat.

      Read Stephen Gould’s essay in ‘Dinosaur in a Haystack” for example, “The Late Birth of a Flat Earth’ where he traces the history of the belief and demonstrates that, even in the darkest of the Dark Ages, the consensus was that the world was round.

      Indeed, the idea that the world is round dates back to the Greeks.

      The idea that scientists used to believe in a flat earth is a fairly recent invention.

    • ZSRenn says:

      10:12pm | 25/05/11

      @ Knemon I call pot calling Kettle black. ( Re Goebbels)

      You are either perse under another banner or another of the paid GALI coalition hacks.

      How you can twist this shit into an attack on TA is not just bending the truth it’s making a pretzel out of it!

    • Dash says:

      06:44am | 25/05/11

      This report is taxpayer funded fraud! The government has paid its hand picked “experts” to help kick start the propaganda campaign!

      What the report doesn’t say is that this tax will have zero impact on global average temperatures which is a scientific fact.

      It doesn’t explain that the governments coal sales to China will have a far greater environmental impact than their deceitful tax! Which is also a scientific fact.

      It also doesn’t seem to suggest that the ALP should foillow a policy of socialist wealth distribution as a way of saving the planet!

      This government is corrupt!

    • Kurisu Sonsaku says:

      08:54am | 25/05/11

      I can’t wait for the movie version;

      “Juliars Bansturbators and the Pamphlet of Doom”

    • Adam says:

      08:57am | 25/05/11

      The report doesn’t try to claim to lower global average temperatures, just to stop them raising more than 2c over the next few decades.

      Read the report yourself, it’s all there in black and white for you to understand without having to rant in a comments section about things which aren’t even included in the report.

    • Dash says:

      10:12am | 25/05/11

      @Adam, the coal we sell to China over the course of the next ten years will have multiple times more impact on the environment than the ALPs deceitful Co2 tax. The ALP says we need to do something about the environment, yet it’s policies are damaging it more! Explain the logic behind that to me?

      The ALPs carbon tax, will not stop global average temperatures rising 2c, 1c or 0c ever! The science is there to prove it. Or are you in denial of the science?

      tyhe tax will raise revenue and allow the ALP and greens to redirect wealth. That is all it will do!

      I understand the report. It was commissioned by the Gillard government. It was prepared by a committee which is being funded by the Australian taxpayer and Gillard is signing the cheque!

      If the ALP wasn’t using the report as propaganda to support it’s socialist tax policies, then I wouldn’t be ranting about it! If the ALP wasn’t being hypocritical in the extreme, I wouldn’t be ranting!

    • AAAdam says:

      02:17pm | 25/05/11

      “The report doesn’t try to claim to lower global average temperatures, just to stop them raising more than 2c over the next few decades”

      So an increase of 2 degrees is fine? But, the 2.000000000001 degrees increase that will occur without a carbon tax will cause the barrier reef to bleach, no more rain, blah, blah, scaremonger, blah, flannery, blah. Lies and rubbish to justify a wealth redistribution tax we don’t need.

    • dovif says:

      02:54pm | 25/05/11

      Dash

      That is the scary part.

      During Copenhagen, I was listening to the ABC, and they have a climate scientist on. He was asked why smaller and poorer pacific nations would be able to reduce their CO2 emition and he said the poorer nation would welcome the carbon tax, as it will give the government revenue to balance the budget or spend on road, school, hospital etc. He said all government would not pass up this oportunity for more tax.

    • Brenda says:

      06:51am | 25/05/11

      In her political and personal self-interests, Gillard lied to the electorate on the controversial issue of climate science, then quickly succumbed to Extreme Green pressures in order to bargain herself into power.
      Well before achieving her minority government, and before she subsequently sunk Labor’s popularity ratings to historical lows, her credibility and public respect levels had already commenced their downward spiral.
      Gillard is now creating unprecedented climate change hysteria in order to force Australians to think along lines that satisfy her rabid Green facilitators.
      One of Gillard’s litany of bad policy decisions has been to provide excessive taxpayer funds to a travelling circus charged with the highly questionable duty of convincing our population that what her Green cronies say is gospel.

    • Against the Man says:

      06:53am | 25/05/11

      This government has no idea what it is doing? Details please Miss Gilltard? Watch her change her tune to suit Bob Brown’s symphony!

      Keep hammering her and her cronies at the polls guys! mshe is hurting your family, yes Mr Arbib even your family is not spared from the Gilltard stupidity! smile

    • acotrel says:

      07:03am | 25/05/11

      MORE DENIAL? When will you recognise that your own ‘duty of care’ involves appropriate management of the risks?

    • MarK says:

      07:52am | 25/05/11

      Exactly.

      We need to act now with a carbon Tax that changes this behaviour immediately.

      The fiercely independent Climate Commission report affirms this.

      What should the start point of the tax be since the science is settled.

      Why should Labor give compensation when only the Big Polluters will pay anyway.

      Why do we allow new coal investment. The Report makes it clear we need to de-carbonise now, not later. To delay is to deny. to deny is to do nothing.

      The clear message from a risk management point of view is we need to stop Big Coal in its tracks and we need to shock the economy form its carbon Complacency.

      It is all in the report. It is settled as Tory amply demonstrated yesterday.

    • Warren says:

      08:02am | 25/05/11

      Because it’s easier to apportion blame to a communist / extreme green conspiracy rather than to take the trouble to deal with a difficult issue.

    • Joel B1 says:

      08:19am | 25/05/11

      Pm Gillard’s “duty of care” to Australian would surely lead her to get a real mandate for a Carbon Dioxide tax rather than just exhibiting her megalomaniac dictatorial nature by claiming one.

      “There will be NO CARBON TAX”

      Lying bloody back-stabbing treacherous lizard.

    • David C says:

      09:07am | 25/05/11

      well that would imply a path towards adaptation then

    • Dash says:

      10:00am | 25/05/11

      acotrel, The coal we will continue to sell China in increasing quantities, will damage the environment considerabbly more than any benefit, real or perceived, from this tax.

      There will be nil impact to global average temperatures. That is a fact proven by the science!

      The government in question time keeps saying “look at the conservatives in Britain”. Well the conservatives in Britain are using Nuclear energy to significantly reduce their carbon emmissions. If Australia was to use nuclear energy, we could cut our emmissions in half and at the same time reduce electricity prices for all Australians without the need for this tax.

      But of course, that would eliminate the ALPs excuse to raise revenue and to redistribute the nations wealth from those creating it to those destroying it.

      The whole thing is a fraud. There is no other way to describe it. 

      Where is the ALPs duty of care being followed when the actions of selling coal to China damage the environment more? How does the fact that the actions of the ALP will actually increase global CO2 emmissions demonstrate their ability to “manage the risks”?

    • Dash says:

      10:32am | 25/05/11

      @Warren, the actions of the ALP to continue to sell coal in increasing quantities to China, will damage the environment year after year for the next 10 years at least. It will damage the environment more than any benefit gained from this tax. How is that dealing with a difficult issue??? Look at the facts, rather than just swallow the propaganda.

      The two biggest things the ALP can do to cut Co2 emmissions is, firstly to stop selling our coal to China. And seccondly, to use nuclear energy. They are contemplating neither.

      To make matters worse, the ALP are going to descriminate against families on the basis of income not pollution.

      This is clearly not about pollution. It is an exercise in redistributing the nations wealth for nil impact on average global temperatures. I for one, do not plan to cop that without a fight.

      This government is corrupt!

    • Sony B Goode says:

      10:48am | 25/05/11

      labor’s self-serving hypocrisy is just so self-evident isn’t it?

      At the end of the day, the difference between labor and chinese communists is marginal, staying in power is the name of the game.

    • private enterprise miner says:

      11:12am | 25/05/11

      When did the ALP nationalise the mines?

    • Dash says:

      12:19pm | 25/05/11

      The ALP do not want to legislate to reduce the amount of coal we sell (don’t need to nationalise mines for that!). They want to tax the profits remember. So they encourage the sale of more coal to China and will tax the profits. And then place the burden of a carbon dioxide tax at the feet of families on the basis of income. Hypocrites!

      Tax, tax, tax for nil net gain to the environment.

    • Greg says:

      12:29pm | 25/05/11

      @ private enterprise miner - the government seems to be able to control what we do with our uranium without nationalising those mines! Who we sell it to, what it’s to be used for and in what quantities and where we mine it!

    • Col. of Blackburn says:

      02:24pm | 25/05/11

      @acotrel me old mate. We obviously need to do something due to the Precautionary Principle. I am a member of the Honourable Corps of Sappers and Miners. When you have worked out where in your backyard you wish to site your Anti Meteorite Shelter, let me know and I shall come up and help you dig it! You could even save yourself some money and increase your Precautions by having it double as an Anti-Bushfire Shelter! wink

    • Sony B Goode says:

      07:42am | 25/05/11

      Greens are insane. They are a serious danger to our economy, more so than the socialists currently in power. The fact they hold the balance of power will damn this country to a massive reduction in the quality of our lifestyle.

      It’s already happening and will accelerate over the remainder of labor’s term.

      Renewables and other airy fairy catchcries are a complete waste of time.

    • TimB says:

      07:43am | 25/05/11

      “The commission said the oceans around Australia were rising faster than the rest of the world - and they were rising fastest on the northern coastline, placing infrastructure such as Brisbane Airport under threat.”

      Clearly this is simply a case of Australia being tilted too far to the east. Time to call the Chaser boys, they’ll rectify this unfortunate situation.

      http://www.abc.net.au/cnnnn/profiteering/tiltaustralia/

    • Babs of Sydney says:

      09:50am | 25/05/11

      I heard the oceans were rising everywhere except at Kevin Rudd, Greg Combet and Al Gore’s oceanfront properties!  The Chaser boys can narrow the locations down to these three “havens of dryness” for immediate rectification.

    • George says:

      07:44am | 25/05/11

      @perse-phoney

      I’m sure you’ve read it, and I’m sure you’ve read it all as I am absolutely sure that most of your playmates in the the ALP sandbox have read it all! 

      However there’s a chasm of difference between reading and comprehending as is the trouble with you and your ALP playmates, you have read but are yet to comprehended.

    • persephone says:

      09:59am | 25/05/11

      George

      no, I haven’t read it.

      Haven’t claimed to and haven’t written articles critiquing something without reading it either.

      Your point, exactly?

    • MarK says:

      10:03am | 25/05/11

      Please stop with the attacks on pers.

      She has agitated and organised at a local level on this issue. She has developed and implemented public policy on this issue. She has lectured at University on this issue. Universities have scientists and the science is settled.

      She is an expert.

      She must be heard.

      All we need discuss is the Carbon Tax now. Everything is settled apart from the start price and increases and the fate of the coal industry that causes all this pollution.

      We have a decade to act. The independent Commissions report said so. Pers will agree that the start price must be much higher than $40 per tonne and ramp up quickly.

      Benefits will flow. Green jobs using the displaced coal workers. A win-win. And with boosted productivity from the NBN.

      We must demand a high Carbon Price to ensure our future and the future of our kids and grandkids. It is critical.

    • Matt says:

      10:37am | 25/05/11

      You can’t beat that logic, MarK. +1 for science!

    • persephone says:

      03:06pm | 25/05/11

      Actually, MarK, when I outlined those activities it was to make the point that I wasn’t an expert.

      I’ve never claimed to be.

      Are you?

      Because if you’re not, apparently you have no business having an opinion.

      (Oh, and apologies - unlike some here, when I believe in something, I work for it. I don’t just sit on my butt here and whinge).

    • Matt says:

      03:40pm | 25/05/11

      Yes persephone, I also go about telling people I’ve lectured on a subject and have developed policy, as well as meeting regularly with experts in the field to stress that I’m not an expert as well.

      Why are people so stupid to misrepresent such an obvious assertion!

    • persephone says:

      04:33pm | 25/05/11

      I don’t know, Matt. You’re the one drawing these long bows, you tell me.

      I really really must be scoring points here, if you guys are getting this desperate.

    • MarK says:

      04:33pm | 25/05/11

      Pers I am hurt.

      I have supported you all day.

      Just yesterday you let slip under intense pressure from, I regret to admit, Truthers like my former self.

      I have tried to help you in this battle. I am not an expert no. I am not a scientist. You however at the least have rubbed shoulders with them no doubt on your lectures and are a peer.

      I defer to you madame.

      Now to the real crux. As a new convert I am unsure of my basis of decisions but do you support a $75 per tonne Carbon Tax after reading this fiercely independent government commissioned report?

      If not at what level should the tax be? I am interested in your logic.

      Of course after reading the report like me you would have been shocked to discover we have a decade left to fix this (WE HOPE!!) so compensation is out.

      Of course the Green jobs that will now flourish post this report that settled the science will offset losses of the Coal Industry, AKA Big Pollution, the probable culprits in the recnet Qld disasters (if only we could bill them!) so do ypu agree that my reasonable 10 year step down closure of the coal industry is fair?

      Should it be done quicker? I am new to this and not and expert.

      What other choices does Julia have? It is her governments report. Is she not beholden to follow it and treat the threat to our kids and grandkids with the forceful remedies that are needed to beat this dramatic timeline?

    • persephone says:

      04:59pm | 25/05/11

      MarK

      I am deeply, deeply hurt.

      You pretend to be an acolyte of mine, soaking in my every word, dissecting every phrase for every nuance.

      And yet, you quote my exchange with Matt yesterday without looking at the context of that exchange.

      Which suggests that you’ve been cherry picking in a gotcha attempt rather than really internalising the true meaning of my words.

      Let me see - I think it I was saying that I wasn’t qualified in any way to set a price on carbon, and furthermore, I didn’t think the price was as important as getting the structure in place.

      This is because - ultimately - the market will determine the price.

      And markets, as you know, tend to get these things right.

      What price the government sets in the interim is just that - an interim measure.

      So, to make it really really clear: I’m not that fussed about the price.

      I’m interested in the mechanism.

      But to be nice: I would expect it to be in the $20-30 range.

      Is that the ‘correct’ price? Don’t know, don’t particularly care (so don’t try to play gotcha with this later!) - once it’s in, it can be adjusted. If industry is good and behaves itself, it might never need to go higher. If they’re not, and emissions continue to rise, then it may have to.

      Indeed, if industry plays its cards right and voluntarily cuts down on emissions beyond the call of duty, the price might fall, although that’s an unlikely scenario).

      In an ideal world, just between you and me, we’d stop coal mining and use tomorrow - or even more ideally, clean coal would be a goer!!

      But we don’t live in an ideal world, so I’ll settle for something which will get a reasonable result in a reasonable way.

    • MarK says:

      06:04pm | 25/05/11

      Hmmmm.

      Bur pers the Report by the fiercely independent Climate Commission says we need to de-carbonise and a 5% cut in a decade will not do it. The 20-30% range was only mooted to reach the 55 by 2020 target.

      that target is bogus look at this

      “4. This is the critical decade. Decisions we make from
      now to 2020 will determine the severity of climate
      change our children and grandchildren experience.
      –– Without strong and rapid action there is a significant
      risk that climate change will undermine our society’s
      prosperity, health, stability and way of life.
      –– To minimise this risk, we must decarbonise our
      economy and move to clean energy sources by 2050.
      That means carbon emissions must peak within the
      next few years and then strongly decline.
      –– The longer we wait to start reducing carbon emissions,
      the more difficult and costly those reductions become.
      –– This decade is critical. Unless effective action is taken,
      the global climate may be so irreversibly altered we
      will struggle to maintain our present way of life. The
      choices we make this decade will shape the long-term
      climate future for our children and grandchildren.”

      Direct from the key messages of the Commisioners.

      You need to recalibrate as does Gillard.

      that is the point of The Report.

      Remember the science is settled.

      This point needs to be emphasised

      “To minimise this risk, we must decarbonise our
      economy and move to clean energy sources by 2050.
      That means carbon emissions must peak within the
      next few years and then strongly decline.”

      EMISSIONS must peak WITHIN THE NEXT FEW YEARS and then strongly decline.

      A 5% reduction from 1990 levels will not do.

      As the Chief Climate Commissioner Tim Flannery, historical ecologist, palaeontologist, zoologist, explorer - recently said to the Guardian

      “...idea of the planet as a self-regulating organism, or Gaia, Flannery sets out to show us how we belong to and are part of nature:

      “We actually are Earth. We really, really are just animated bits of the Earth’s crust, so to talk about us and the Earth is the wrong paradigm. It’s not us and Earth. We actually are Earth, and if they don’t grasp that . . .”

      I mean read that.

      it is profound.

      It is moving.

      One cannot read that emotion form thsi great man, one cannot bathe in its’ ....hell I am nearly lost for words….righteous glory? and not be moved.

      No price is too high to protect Gaia. We are Gaia and Gaia is us.

      So you agree with me the Science is settled and the Climate Report has put this beyond doubt. Google warriors be damned. Go read Tory’s repudiation of your legitimacy. Her story contained real study, not online links.

      Sorry I got sidetracked so passionate do I feel but when I read Tim’s words and then this


      EMISSIONS must peak WITHIN THE NEXT FEW YEARS and then strongly decline.

      I need to see mnore than 5%.

      Of course these things are not linear so a 75% rate will not give just over 10% but the country needs a shock. We need to de-carbonise and act this decade.

      I think you are in denial of the Report Gillard has to rely on with the Greens and The Independents to formulate the rate.

      75% is baout right. Along with the coal industry closing this decade coming.

      Anything less woill doom us as The Commisioners say.

      “This decade is critical. Unless effective action is taken,
      the global climate may be so irreversibly altered we
      will struggle to maintain our present way of life. The
      choices we make this decade will shape the long-term
      climate future for our children and grandchildren.”“

      Wow that is scary. Your tax rate is too low.

      Gillard is a woman of vison principal and courage. She will not be in denial like you.

      If she truly believes the report and the settled science she must conform to the timeline.

      It is ridiculous to suggest she can pick and chose “parts” of the science. That leads to delay. Delay is denail. To deny is to do nothing.

      So Pers I really need you to tell me whay the rate has to be so low given the exigencies above.

      remember as Tim says

      ““We actually are Earth. We really, really are just animated bits of the Earth’s crust, so to talk about us and the Earth is the wrong paradigm. It’s not us and Earth. We actually are Earth, “

      Pure poetic genius. With a man like that as Chairman of The Climate Commission we might just get an outcome that can solve the planets problems.

      Wow. Pers do not fall into the deniers trap I escaped from. Be true to the science. You know it makes sense. We are actually Earth ( thanks Tim)

    • persephone says:

      07:15pm | 25/05/11

      Yes, MarK, which is why the mechanism is important not the starting price.

      As you have noted, we have a couple of years where we can keep increasing emissions before we have to cut back, which allows us a bit of fudge time.

      By that time, we’ll already have had some action - and some mitigation - because of the price being set, no matter how low that price is.

      And at about that time we should have a trading market in place and be moving to an ETS style system, where carbon permits are limited and thus become more and more expensive to purchase.

      If we’re not achieving the desired targets, less permits are issued, thus driving up the price.

      That’s why the present price isn’t as important as the mechanism, because having the correct mechanisms in place - a carbon market, which the government’s proposal is moving towards - means that the price will be determined by the market.

      As I said previously, what that price will be will depend largely on how industry reacts to the initial price signal. If they take it on board and make major changes now to reduce emissions, in the long run they won’t be paying as much for permits and the price will stay low.

      If they don’t, and emissions continue to rise, then the permits will become scarcer and the price will rise accordingly.

      So the emissions reductions you want to achieve determines the number of permits allocated and the number of permits determine the price.

      All sounds a bit circular, I know, but that’s how a good market mechanism works.

    • Matt says:

      08:49pm | 25/05/11

      So let me get this straight, persephone… the market will take care of it.

      Why hasn’t it yet? Why is government intervention needed? As you say:
      “This is because - ultimately - the market will determine the price.

      And markets, as you know, tend to get these things right.”

      So, currently the market has set a price of $0. But markets get these things right? Circular argument indeed!

      Are you an economics expert, perse? Just checking.

      Also, your comments about lecturing, policy writing etc was not initially a dialogue between us, so try to keep the truth in tact rather than snapping it in half, please. I know you sometimes cannot help it, but give it a shot!

    • persephone says:

      09:13pm | 25/05/11

      Matt

      which is why we’re creating a market, to do this, through the government setting a price on carbon and through the issuing of permits.

      Governments creating markets isn’t anything new - until a decade or so ago, for example, there was effectively no price on water and thus no market for it.

      We now trade water, and the price is set firstly by the government and then by the market, as water is on sold.

      I’m sure there are other examples of governments creating markets in this way.

      And I’ve already told you, in the very post you refer to with your remark about my lectures, that I’m not an expert on economics.

      You don’t need to be, to understand the way a carbon market works.

      If it’s too hard for you, however, just accept the advice of the experts. I wouldn’t want you to hurt your brain by grappling with ideas you’re not really capable of comprehending.

    • Matt says:

      09:28am | 26/05/11

      You’re comparing apples with oranges, persephone.

    • Tiny Dancer says:

      07:52am | 25/05/11

      In the mid 70’s the science was also in - we were all hurtling to a new ice age which would end civilisation.  Pushed hard by the left.  FFS this is not a climate commission and it is not independent.  4 years ago Flannery said that it was all drought, no more snow and Adelaide would perish.  The commission is a bunch of warmists carefully selected by the left relying on reports reviewed by warmists.  What a crock.

    • G says:

      09:45am | 25/05/11

      Science in yet about the ozone layer tiny?

    • PTom says:

      10:07am | 25/05/11

      “commission is a bunch of warmists” I guess you don’t actual know the people who are a part of the comission then.

    • Anubis says:

      11:15am | 25/05/11

      @G - Well, not really G. There was a report recently that an Ozone hole over the Arctic is growing. The banning of CFC’s has effectively minimised the damage to the Antarctic ozone hole but the scientists are at a loss as to why the Arctic Ozone layer is now being depleted.  the science may be in but it does not appear to be settled yet.

    • Cactus says:

      12:00pm | 25/05/11

      No! No!  No, Tiny Dancer, MarK above said: “The fiercely independent Climate Commission report affirms this”. I loved that bit and the imagery it provoked.

    • Scranbag says:

      07:56am | 26/05/11

      “In the mid 70’s the science was also in - we were all hurtling to a new ice age which would end civilisation.”
      Yet another old chestnut, sadly. Already debunked once this week.

      But by all means let’s have another look behind the curtain of myth.

      Here’s one summary - from the well-known Christian Science Monitor - mainstream in the US and a more temperate and well-informed journal than its title might suggest to knee-jerkers.

      “Today, skeptics of global warming sometimes point to what they call the “global-cooling scare” of the 1970s as a reason to discount what they hear now. If the news media 30 years ago hyped “global cooling” and were wrong, skeptics say, doesn’t it follow that “global warming” coverage might prove equally wrong?

      But those who have looked closely at the two eras or have been part of the scientific community then and now say the comparison is unfair. William Connolley, a sort of self-appointed historian of the global-cooling theory, says that although global cooling was briefly but prominently covered in some speculative news articles, the idea never got much traction within the scientific community. New data and research over the decades has convinced the vast majority of scientists that global warming is real and under way.”
      http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1011/p13s03-sten.html
      The CSM is well-respected for “avoiding sensationalism, producing a ‘distinctive brand of nonhysterical journalism ’ ” [Boston Globe, Carnegie Reporter]

      And another useful summary, though usual wiki cautions apply - useful starting point,  make own assessment, if in doubt follow the links…

      “Global cooling was a conjecture during the 1970s of imminent cooling of the Earth’s surface and atmosphere along with a posited commencement of glaciation. This hypothesis had mixed support in the scientific community, but gained temporary popular attention due to a combination of a slight downward trend of temperatures from the 1940s to the early 1970s and press reports that did not accurately reflect the scientific understanding of ice age cycles. “

      and

      “In the 1970s there was increasing awareness that estimates of global temperatures showed cooling since 1945. Of those scientific papers considering climate trends over the 21st century, only 10% inclined towards future cooling, while most papers predicted future warming.”
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_cooling
      For all its faults, wikipedia is a useful basic beginning for many a topic.

      Myths such as this one are quite popular.  When you think how easy it is to check them out, its surprising how often they get splashed about.

      But again and again they get trotted out for another round of misinformation.

      Mid 70s Ice Age science? Just another myth.

    • Hartog says:

      07:55am | 25/05/11

      John,

      Maybe you can show this to Penbo who has a thing about the vast majority of scientists:

      “by every reputable climate scientist in the world”, but there are many who would disagree, including emininent international scientists Profs Richard Lindzen, Henrik Svensmark, John Christy, Dr Ferenc Miskolczi, Dr Miklos Zagoni, our own Profs Bob Carter, Ian Plimer, Dr David Evans plus more than 30,000 US scientists who have signed a petition refuting man-made global warming.

    • Mouse says:

      07:12pm | 25/05/11

      and here’s a couple more who don’t agree, but maybe these guys are not reputable.

    • John Mikkelsen says:

      08:00am | 25/05/11

      So Pers, Mark, Acotrel, you don’t see anything slightly contradictory in accepting that the sky is falling while we do our utmost to supply overseas countries with as much coal as we can lay our hands on, thus contributing much more CO2 to the atmosphere in this coming “critical decade”? How can a carbon tax in Australia offset that?
      You don’t think it might also be a wise move to use more of our less polluting natural gas for transport (and power generation) rather than also shipping the vast bulk of it overseas while we remain at the mercy of OPEC?

    • persephone says:

      10:06am | 25/05/11

      Oh dear, you’ve fallen for MarK too!

      A bit of an own goal there.

      Yes, I do see contradictions.

      But you’ve done the classic case of leaping to the extreme and ignoring the middle.

      We don’t need to shut down all coal production. It would be nice if we could, but it isn’t necessary.

      Unfortunately, we don’t live in an ideal world, and crashing the coal industry tomorrow would be fairly disastrous for our economy. So a middle course is needed.

      We may never lose our dependence on coal - but we can certainly lessen it. A price signal that other energy sources are more desirable (particularly a global price signal) will do that without crashing our economy.

      And there’s a heap of evidence out there that we can continue to export and use coal and cut our emissions at the same time.

      As someone who has used LPG to power all my cars (and natural gas where I can for the household stuff), yes, a further shift towards use of natural gas is good.

      A carbon price will encourage this.

      Notice you’re not defending yourself against my claim that you haven’t read the report!

    • Michael says:

      10:19am | 25/05/11

      I think you may have missed the sarcasm from MarK

    • Dash says:

      10:39am | 25/05/11

      @perse, the ALP are continuing to sell coal in increasing quantities to China!!!! Wake up luvy! The ALP are actually damaging the environment more by doing that than any gain from their tax. That is a fact. And it’s supported by the science. And rolling out a report the ALP has commissioned by a group on the ALPs payroll doesn’t change that fact!

      This whole thing is a fraud against the Australian people. There will be nil impact on global average temperatures of this tax! NIL. Ask Gillard to tell us what the net impact of our coal sales to China less the “benefits” of her socialist tax will be.

    • BobM says:

      10:55am | 25/05/11

      Oh I see, Persephone. We’ll keep the coal industry ticking along supplying massive amounts of coal to overseas countries thus keeping the coal mining unions happily voting Labor because THEY still have a job. What about the rest of us?

    • Reggie says:

      11:23am | 25/05/11

      Michael; ” I think you may have missed the sarcasm from MarK”

      Are you sure? He keeps flipping from ceiling to floor with his arms flapping. No MarK, it’s not flying, it’s bouncing. wink

    • Richard says:

      12:23pm | 25/05/11

      Fantastic point John. Why should the Chinese get to use cheap electricity produced from our coal while we will be paying through the nose for expensive electricity produced from the same coal? The government has been in the paper today pooh-poohing suggestions we should slow down our coal exports, so then now its up to them to explain why we have to pay more for electricity generated form our own coal but the Chinese don’t.

      I have also been a long term advocate (and written so in the punch here many times) about using our own reserves of LNG to run our transport fleets in Australia instead of selling it to China for 2.5 cents per litre. I feel quite vindicated to hear you re-iterate my visionary policy suggestions.

      The hypocrisy of this government and its apologists like persephone and acotrel is astounding, but a small heads-up~ MarK is being outrageously sarcastic, and its actually hysterically humorous.

      I guess you have to be one of the punch “regs” to get it…

    • John Mikkelsen says:

      12:39pm | 25/05/11

      No I didn’t miss the irony from Mark after reading all his comments but my post today was made early am when there were only a couple of posts. Re the report, why not ask The Punch Team and the many journos quoting from it in all the media immediately after its release, whether they’ve read the whole thing. I saw the interviews, read the news reports and saw Profs Will and Tim explaining it’s sallient points and the piece above is more a critique of its futility in telling us what we had already heard, with a few more alarming claims thrown in. Re our coal industry I certainly agree it should be sustained but developments planned during this “next critical decade” go way, way beyond that which is fine if CO2 is not a problem, I guess.
      As I said, you can’t have it both ways and the Greens would be happy if all coal exports ended sooner rather than later.

    • Matt says:

      01:23pm | 25/05/11

      Hey Richard, you should simply write the policy and implement it. That’s what persephone does. I assume any layperson can do the same.

    • jf says:

      01:27pm | 25/05/11

      Michael says:10:19am | 25/05/11

      “I think you may have missed the sarcasm from MarK”

      I’m not sure that MarK was being sarcastic.

      After all, if we have ten years after which we are all going to die, isn’t the current ALP policy simply pissing on a bush fire.

      Surely, if this report is to be believed, all coal mining should stop, all cars, other than green cars should be banned (and they should immediately stop making Prii), all electricity other than solar should be turned off, in fact, all carbon emitting activities should be stopped.

      And this, should be stopped today. Immediately. The ALP and The Greens should show the courage of their convictions and some leadership and introduce legislation for an immediate cessation of all human activities that emit carbon. Habeas Corpus should be suspended and martial law should be introduced and anyone engaging in carbon emitting activities activies should be detained indefinitely. Farters will be flogged.

    • MarK says:

      02:03pm | 25/05/11

      Sorry I took so long to reply John. As nossy pointed out I need to find a job so I was down the clink (as we call it CentreLINK - get it) doing some research and catching with some contacts. Never been busier being long term unemployed.

      Anyway the post went a bit long but it is important to get the message out so I split it in 2 like I suggested to Scarny but he thought I was dissing. Oh well.

      here goes.

      ”  John Mikkelsen says:

        08:00am | 25/05/11”

      Hi John - thanks for responding. I like it when authors respond it adds so much more to the thread.

        “  So Pers, Mark, Acotrel, you don’t see anything slightly contradictory in accepting that the sky is falling while we do our utmost to supply overseas countries with as much coal as we can lay our hands on, thus contributing much more CO2 to the atmosphere in this coming “critical decade”?”

      Look I see your point but look at my argument carefully. You must read it and think critically about what I am saying.

      This report that the government ONLY received two days ago is a game changer.

      It is from a fiercely independent expert panel of Climate Scientists and others that are noted experts in the field.

      The outcome was unprecedented in a Climate Report to this government.

      Gillard now has to act. What has gone on in the past is behind us. Focus on The Report. It clearly says we MUST act now. This decade is critical. Remember this is the panel Gillard chose and they acted independently. They are inviolate.

      Will this necessitate a harsh start point and no compensation in the Carbon Tax?  Well yes absolutely but to delay is to deny and to deny is to do nothing. She instigated this panel of independent experts and thank God she did.

      She must go hard to change behaviour and shock us off our carbon dependence. This report she commissioned leaves her no room. She has to re-evaluate the well south of $40 per tonne guess she had but really who can blame her. Who knew the problem was this bad. After all the science is settled.  Yes I know you provided a Google search to some petition to

      try and counter the fact that all the worlds REPUTABLE scientists believe in AGW and catastrophic climate change but please see Tory’s excellent reasoning yesterday why playing the Google warrior is a failed exercise. You see John, the science is settled.
      “ How can a carbon tax in Australia offset that?”

      Well it can’t John. But that is not the point.

      You must listen to the argument put forth and then follow it to the only conclusion possible.
      The science is settled. Gillard launched an independent Commission to tell her the scientific truth. Just the f acts. She received the report warmly and has stated herself – the science is settled.

      Since it is settled from Monday with surety we will see Gillard announce a harsh carbon price to switch us and the world off CO2 consumption. As we have been told we must lead the way.

      This is how I see it working.

      A home-grown Carbon Tax at 75% to start with. A rethink on the MRRT particularly given Bartletts disgraceful trashing of the recent Budget. The rate on that has to go up. We must make the polluters pay. Hand in hand is a renunciation of any compensation benefits being paid. The report Labor commissioned was clear. The science is settled. We have to act this decade. Gillard cannot back away. In any case as she and Combet have assured us only Big Pollution companies will pay the tax. It matters not.

      Most importantly to rectify the seeming contradiction in the governments appeasement of the coal industry to date we will see them phase the coal industry out over the next decade. A 10% reduction per year on todays export and mining levels.

      We must act. The Report that was created by the fiercely independent scientists have it settled. If we do not act we deny. If we deny we do nothing. If we do nothing we doom our children and grandkids.

    • persephone says:

      03:20pm | 25/05/11

      As I said, the assumption seems to be that we have to leap from one extreme to another.

      It’s the old ‘if a little of something is good, a lot more of it must be better still’ theory (although perhaps in reverse!)

      Although getting rid of coal would be great (although developing a true clean coal technology would be even better) it’s not a feasible option in the timelines we’re talking about.

      It is in no way contradictory to recognise that action is needed urgently on climate change and to simultaneously recognise that - for the immediate future - coal export and coal use is a fact of life.

      It’s a very simplistic view of the world that says that, because you can’t realise an ideal, you shouldn’t take any action towards achieving it, and counter to common sense.

      Saying ‘we can’t get rid of coal therefore we shouldn’t act on climate change’ is a bit like ‘we can’t prevent people dying in car accidents, so let’s not bother with seatbelts.”

      It’s that nonsensical.

      Now, if people want to argue a ridiculous proposition because they’re too thick to understand that everyday life is a series of compromises, they can go right ahead.  But they shouldn’t be surprised if they’re not taken seriously.

      BTW, MarK’s ‘conversion’ actually highlights an interesting phenomena concerning climate change. Although I recognise his is bogus, the jump from disbelief to ‘OMG we’re all doomed’ is a common one.

      That’s one of the reasons people will do almost any amount of mental gymnastics to avoid making that jump - it can be a very depressing, confronting experience.

      Over the top reactions like Mikkleton’s - ‘if we’re serious, we must stop all coal mining now’ - don’t help the debate at all.

    • Matt says:

      03:45pm | 25/05/11

      But persephone, are you being serious, if we only have a 10 year window of opportunity to save the world?

      Who’s the denier now, hmm?

      The science is settled, and the report says we have to act fast. How does that reconcile with increasing coal production and distribution?

      Oh, sorry. You haven’t read the report yet. I’ll wait until you’ve got that out of the way before asking the hard-hitting questions.

      Now, make like a top load washing machine, get out there, and start agitating!

    • MarK says:

      04:38pm | 25/05/11

      Oh dear part 2 never went through.

      It contains many answers

      Here it is

      Gillard must act. So you can see how the Carbon Tax is but one small part of the overall picture.

      We must lead the world. We must price our coal according to its net detriment to the world and tax it accordingly. Big Pollution cannot get away with this rort. These companies send all the profits overseas anyway. We really are not hurting anyone at home here. This is an old argument we have had last year.

      It all follows once you read the report and realise that Gillard has few options. It is actually an enviable position. She has the facts. She has the Report. The Report is clear. Act now or doom us all.

      She will make the right choice. Hard hitting tax and an end to the coal shame. Her governmental partners will help her reach that decision.

      “  You don’t think it might also be a wise move to use more of our less polluting natural gas for transport (and power generation) rather than also shipping the vast bulk of it overseas while we remain at the mercy of OPEC?”

      Oh please.

      Look there are a few clean energies. Solar, wind tidal and biomass.

      Nuclear is sort of clean as such but the waste products are horrendous. Then you must remember the tens of thousands that died at Chernobyl and the recent Japan nuclear catastrophe to realise nuclear os not an option. Seriously the thought of all those horribly infected Japanese. When I think of those brave pilots who must surely be showing the radiation sickness Crikey foretold, skin sloughing off and what not, that were sent to death I shudder. It is a crime we have seen further evidence of the mass deaths that have and will continue to occur in the future near Fuckashima.

      We so have all the others to use though. And natural gas while cleaner than coal still emits carbon pollution when burnt. Read the report we must de-carbonise. Nothing else is feasible after you read the report.

      So lets get serious. Gas is a half measure. We have wind sun and coast lines in Austrlais. With AGW already causeing massive king tides and rising water it makes sens to harness this energy while we can.

      It is the only one of the options that make sense from the Report.

      Also remember the Report said there is a possibility of more rian – we can use rivers to power turbines. Also more chance of drought – clear evidence solar is worthwhile and storms will be stronger and more frequent. Pers already foretold this. We need to identify and build proper wind farms.

      I mean imagine trapping the power of say Yasi. Wow. That would power Brisabne for a day or so just there. And we will have more storms. Let us use it now to show the world we are indeed like Bill Gates.

      So John I hope I have sorted you out. Please don’t argue the science. The science is settled.

      Carefully read the report and think critically about the good fortune of Gillard. She has little option but to embrace the Report and do the right thing.  As always she will be true to her word and show leadership and courage. Her options may be limited but when we have an economy like much of Europe, Green and lean, we will have showed the world what for. I welcome the report in its entirety and look forward to her getting on with the job.

      I myself welcome this Green future with awe and wonder and can’t wait to help my kids and grandkids with positive action.

      Julia do the right thing.

    • persephone says:

      04:43pm | 25/05/11

      You ask hard hitting questions, Matt?

      I’m sorry, I haven’t noticed.

      And I don’t think you’re capable. A genuine hard hitting question needs some intellect behind it, and a genuine understanding of the issues.

      Instead,  you tend to go for fatuous ‘gotchas’ as if scoring ‘points’ against me will make any difference to what the serious people are talking about.

      Like Mikkelson, I’ve read the media releases and listened to the interviews, so if he’s qualified to write a critical article on that basis, I think that means I can answer the simplistic type of question you’re asking.

      We do need to act in this decade - indeed, as soon as possible. But that doesn’t mean we need to do everything we need to do within that timeframe, simply that we’ve got to get working on it.

      Acting quickly is in our own best interests - not just from a planetary persepective, but from a cost one.

      Again, you’re doing the fatuous ‘if we believe in climate change we must stop all emissions tomorrow’ thing - which simply demonstrates your own ignorance, not only on what the experts (both scientific and economic) are saying but about how responsible governments act.

      No worries -  about the level of intellectual capability I expect from a Liberal cheerleader, and (of course) anyone who seriously suggests Tony Abbott is a potential PM has no understanding of responsible government, either.

    • MarK says:

      04:45pm | 25/05/11

      Pers I am hurt.

      I have stuck up for you all day.

      This is Gillards report she commissioned. It clearly outlines the settled scienced and the irrefutable conclusion that unless we take drastic action we are doomed.

      I went to the Port Macquarie CLimate Commisssion meeting. Will said there that our society will break down. Bascially no one has farmed under increaesed temperature and carbon pollution conditions. We don’t know how to.

      Surely with thiso n board Gillard is bound to act.

      You have also said there would be an explosion of Green jobs.

      Surely we cannot go too far? What is there to be scared of? Fear did not hold Gates back nor should it hold us back.

      What price is the proper price then? The settled science says 10 years to act. We need certainty fast. The clock is ticking.

    • Matt says:

      05:01pm | 25/05/11

      Sounds like you’re denying the magnitude of destruction that we will face if we don’t act, and act fast, perse. Are you a denier?

      Also, my apologies, I didn’t know that I had no right forming an opinion or asking questions, what with my feeble intellect and all. I will, of course, defer to your expertise on the matter. You are obviously superior to us all, being a university lecturer and policy maker.

    • nossy says:

      05:04pm | 25/05/11

      @persephone - I think MarK is back on the bottle persephone ! Sad huh !

    • persephone says:

      05:38pm | 25/05/11

      OK, Matt, you do that.

    • luke says:

      05:40pm | 25/05/11

      persephone, you suggest Abbott would not lead a responsible government and he would be a bad choice as PM. We are now experiencing a Gillard government who deliberately lied about not introducing a carbon tax, with a treasurer who is dishonests with the facts and has put the country’s financial position into the biggest debt levels ever. I think you should look up the meaning of the word ‘responsible’ before using it to describe the Gillard government.

      I will give you some credit though, at least you agree that the carbon tax will not stop, reverse or halt carbon emissions.

    • persephone says:

      06:06pm | 25/05/11

      luke

      but it will stabilise them.

      Once we’ve achieved that, we can start looking at reversing.

      As for Abbott : he is an acknowledged liar, who has reneged on policy promises; he is an economic illiterate, who is unable to outline an alternative economic agenda for Australia, and whose figures - on almost any of his handful of policies - do not add up; he is unable to deliver a balanced budget (see his campaign promises, which have been shown to be out by several BILLION dollars); and he is no leader, being unable to control his members, or have them stick to a consistent message - or demonstrate the self discipline to lead by example and do that himself.

      He is not an alternate PM. He’s not even a very good Opposition Leader.

    • persephone says:

      06:16pm | 25/05/11

      MarK

      see, you don’t even read what I write, whilst pretending that you care.

      Where, for example, do I say anything about Green jobs?

      I believe that - in all my time punching - that is the first time those two words (in conjunction) have ever been typed by me.

      This is the second time today you have misrepresented me.

      Given your inaccuracy in this regard, how can I trust anything that you say?

    • Sony B Goode says:

      06:32pm | 25/05/11

      persephone “but it will stabilise them”

      Oh Please! how can we stabilise anything by ourselves? until china and india and the US do something meaningful its all self inflicted pain for zero result, other than keep the greens happy which keeps labor in power which….

    • luke says:

      06:38pm | 25/05/11

      persephone, a carbon tax will not stabilise carbon emissions, it hasn’t worked in europe, they have a carbon price and since it’s introduction carbon emissions have continued to increase. As for Abbott so called budget blowout(according to ALP staff), the facts are the Gillard government are spending more than they are recieving, we have our biggest debt, ever. Even Swan can’t remember when an ALP government last returned a budget surplus and I doubt he can deliver one.

    • MarK says:

      11:20pm | 25/05/11

      But pers I haven’t misrepresented you. Whenever questioned in the past on cost you always say refer back to garnaut for answers.

      The good wise scientist Ross has always maintained green jobs would be created. I thought all of this stuff was intertwined and since we have only a decade to act we cannot very well go around cherry picking what part of the settled science we agree with and what we don’t.

      Ross is an expert. You continually referred us to treasury and Ross.

      Are you now sayong there will not be Green jobs created? What else do you now deny or doubt.

      I am worried.

      You seem to be wavering. My beliefs are strong. I am starting to question yours.

      I don’t think you will push for a high enoughstart price. The start price will set the tone.

      It is critical for it to push us to action and change don’t you agree?

      the science is settled and we must de-carbonise. True?

    • persephone says:

      07:41am | 26/05/11

      MarK

      OK, now you’re misrepresening me AGAIN.

      I’ve never referred anyone to Garnaut ever.

      If I’ve mentioned Green jobs, and referred someone back to Garnaut (let alone multiple times) you will have no trouble checking this.

      I haven’t.

      I was polite enough to respond to you, despite knowing that you were playing your usual silly games.

      But - until you apologise for these lies about me - you can play in the sandpit by yourself.

    • persephone says:

      08:21am | 26/05/11

      I was a bit heated when I wrote that last comment, and realise that posters such as MarK will deliberately take it out of context.

      To clarify: I have never referred people back to Garnaut (let alone repeatedly) in the context of setting a carbon price.

      I have referred to Garnaut when talking about economists who support a carbon price.

      This isn’t a ‘oh I was wrong!’ thing - in the post above, the context is obvious.

      It’s knowing that there are a couple of posters out there who will ignore the context.

    • jf says:

      08:36am | 26/05/11

      persephone says:06:16pm | 25/05/11

      “see, you don’t even read what I write, whilst pretending that you care.”

      Yet again typical ALP arrogance. I realise that MarK is taking the piss but Perse automatically takes the view if you don’t agree with her views you don’t care.

      Perse would be amongst the most measured, rational bloggers on Punch (from either side) and even so she can’t disguise her subtle, underlying superiority. Her belief that she and she alone owns the high moral ground

      As a committed conservative I am fed up with this moral egotism of the self-styled progressive side of politics. Their moral arrogance is typically self-serving, one dimensional, unaccountable, politics of the moment. Their policy typically generates unintended consequences and rather than accept responsibility for their own narrow mindedness and short sightedness, they create excuses, justifications and defenses.

    • persephone says:

      09:11am | 26/05/11

      jf

      Huh? I ask that I be reported fairly and not ‘verballed’ and that translates to an arrogant belief in my own superiority?

      Sorry, it translates to wanting to be treated fairly.

      (And thanks for the compliment!)

    • jf says:

      09:54am | 26/05/11

      persephone says:09:11am | 26/05/11

      My pleasure.

      In response to MarK’s satire was to assume that in pretending to believe in AGW he was pretending to care.

      I don’t know MarK but I certainly don’t believe that because he doesn’t believe in AGW he there doesn’t “care”.

      I haven’t accepted that mankind in responsible for global warming and I am a conservative, however I care a great deal. About the environment, about fairness, about social equity, about community health, about refugees, about gay marriage and, in fact, a whole raft of issues.

      In fact, I would go so far as saying that I give a whole much more of a shit than a lot of ALP supporters and pretty much every Greens supporter.

      You see, I believe that the Greens supporter’s and the intellectual elite of the ALP (not all Labor supporters) are so wrapped up in their own moral superiority that they have lost sight of the impact of what they are proposing. If I were to be cynical, I might even suggest that they are more interested in their utter conviction that they are our intellectual betters and that they know what’s good for us so that we should just do what they say. Don’t worry about democracy, don’t worry that the rules don’t apply to them – just do as they say. Don’t believe me: listen to Christine Milne one day.

      These arseholes are doing far more damage to the genuinely needy and vulnerable in our society than any fringe right-wing extremist.

    • persephone says:

      10:33am | 26/05/11

      jf

      what have I ever done to you, for you to threaten to make me listen to Christine Milne?

      Surely the punishment does not fit the crime!!

      Broadly I’m not in disagreement with you. Which is why I’m in there fighting!

      As I’ve outlined before, I’m no newcomer to this issue and I’ve been active in the party for action on it (which is why I find suggestions that I toe the party line on this rather amusing—- it’s people like myself who’ve made that the party line).

      For numerous reasons - mainly , ironically enough, that I believe they’ve delayed action on climate change not once but a number of times - I have no truck with the Greens.

      I restate my original gripe, however; MarK has misrepresented me, putting words into my mouth.

      As someone who believes in a fair go, I don’t like that kind of behaviour.

    • RyaN says:

      11:10am | 26/05/11

      @jf: couldn’t agree more, the phrase “out of touch” is really not enough to explain just how little they actually give a shit about Australia and its people.

    • jf says:

      01:40pm | 26/05/11

      persephone says:10:33am | 26/05/11

      I’m starting to think you’re with your side for every reason but the right ones. Hopefully you’ll be like a mate of mine. A long time Labor voter who realised that the ALP are all about perception and very little about substance. He came to the conclusion that, as someone who believed in fairness, social equity and democracy that he was philosophically, ethically and morally more aligned to the Liberal Party than any other party. 

      “what have I ever done to you, for you to threaten to make me listen to Christine Milne?”

      I was out of line there. Sorry.

      “I have no truck with the Greens.”

      But you do have truck with them. Your party is in coalition with them.

      “I restate my original gripe, however; MarK has misrepresented me, putting words into my mouth.”

      Fair enough, however it wasn’t this part of your comment that I took issue with. It was your assumption that someone who believed in AGW must therefore care: MarK was pretending to believe in AGW and was therefore, in your mind, “pretending (to) care”.

      “As for Abbott : he is an acknowledged liar, who has reneged on policy promises:”

      Facts Perse? Acknowledging that politicians can be guilty of lapsing into hyperbole isn’t lying. Reneging on a campaign promise to not introduce fundamental social, tax and society reform and then doing so anyway – now that’s a lie.

      “he is unable to deliver a balanced budget”

      Are you kidding here Perse. This from a person who supports a party that has not balanced a budget in six (or is seven) attempts in a row (worse than the NSW Blues).

      There are probably a number of things you could attack the coalition on as an alternative government but attacking them for lying and for not being able to balance a budget is the pot calling the silver ingot black.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      08:00am | 25/05/11

      Destroying our standard of living will not alter or reverse the climate one iota.

    • G says:

      09:43am | 25/05/11

      Neither will spamming this thread with denial

    • PTom says:

      10:21am | 25/05/11

      I agree lets not destroy our standard screw the planet and the future generation, I want to live my head in the sand. Lets have some common sense like smoking does not kill, we should be able to use DDT to kill the roaches and put lead back in Paint and Petrol after all they where only theories without proof.

      We should do what we want to who ever we want because we live in “all about me” society.

    • G says:

      10:39am | 25/05/11

      PTom
      Don’t forget to put those CFC’s back in deoderants and stuff.
      The science is never settled.

    • Dash says:

      10:50am | 25/05/11

      @PTom - the ALP are continuing to sell coal to China in increased quantities. Will that not “screw the planet” for future generations?? How is a tax that science proves will have nil impact on global temperatures justified?

      @G - Is the fact that the ALPs export policies are going to produce a net increase in Co2 after allowing for this tax, mean that they too are in denial of the science?

      The best and most efficient way to reduce our Co2 footprint and to act responsibly on a global scale is, firstly to reduce our coal exports and secondly implement nuclear energy. And we wouldn’t need this tax to do either!

    • Sony B Goode says:

      11:37am | 25/05/11

      see Anubis’ comments below. checkmate.

    • jf says:

      03:41pm | 25/05/11

      G says: 09:43am | 25/05/11
      “Neither will spamming this thread with denial”
      I don’t think that Sony B Goode said it would.

      But you do concede that destroying our standard of living won’t change global warming.

    • persephone says:

      07:36pm | 25/05/11

      And who’s talking about destroying our standard of living?

      No one I’m aware of.

    • Felipe says:

      08:11am | 25/05/11

      From televised news coverage of this report, Gillard looks so so happy.  She must be out of her mind to think that the public doesn’t see that this is not an independent report, the commission received money for this and continue to receive money from the taxpayers.  Gillard has the illusion that she is vindicated in her push for a carbon tax.  No way lady, you are in fantasy land.  If you pursue this tax without the public’s nod you are finished.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      08:26am | 25/05/11

      Mikko, the last thing we need now in relation to AGW is more ‘debate’. In the light of yesterday’s report, calls for further ‘debate’ about the substance of AGW can only be seen as a continuation of the delaying strategy that has thus far worked well to put off the inevitable. 

      Australia needs to bite the collective bullet on AGW and get on with doing something about it beyond fence-sitting and obfuscation.  I agree that a carbon tax is a pretty miserable way of beginning to ameliorate the environmental damage caused by anthropogenic emissions, but at least it’s a concrete start that recognises that the planet is warming and that humans are very probably responsible for most of it.  If it leads us into a global emissions trading scheme, so much the better.

      You point out Australia’s arrant hypocrisy in simultaneously recognising that industrial emissions are largely responsible for the creation of the greenhouse effect, while our economy is far too dependent on selling off non-renewable raw materials.  This is, of course, the conundrum that State and Federal governments of whatever persuasion have to deal with in this country.

      The ‘debate’ should now move to reconciling these disparate circumstances such that our country can move on from the economic and moral double-bind that now afflicts us and prosper in a global low-carbon economy.

      While yesterday’s report contained nothing at all surprising, the deniers are looking sillier all the time.  Indeed, I’m noticing that only the most extreme deniers are still openly claiming that the planet isn’t warming, and even fewer are persisting in denying that human activity is reponsible.  I guess if you’ve painted yourself vociferously and often offensively enough into a corner, you really haven’t got anywhere to go in terms of public discourse.

      Speaking of which, do I detect a softening in Mikko’s “skepticism” of late?  Correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to be trying to hoist yourself up out of the rhetorical corner into which you’ve painted yourself.  I’m told that it’s quite uncomfortable sitting on fences - tell us John, do you accept the substance of yesterday’s Climate Commission report?

    • Anubis says:

      09:25am | 25/05/11

      @CJMorgan - keep up laddie. It is no longer AGW, the Cardinals of your faith have dropped that term because it was too specific and could be proven wrong. It is now Climate Change - that can be applied to everything and can not be proven wrong because it has been happening since the earth was a dust cloud. You are way behind the times if you are still calling it AGW - you may as well be talking about the 1970’s cause celebre of Global Cooling and impending Ice Age.  keep up laddie.

    • ZSRenn says:

      12:10pm | 25/05/11

      @CJ I agree lets spend billions now to save 0.073% of global emissions. To delay any further will just keep this massive
      contribution to the total in the mix.

      Let’s get out of our homes and into caves away from our keyboards.

      And as the sun slowly sinks over what is left of Australia at least we can say we did our bit and we saved that 0.073%.

    • Joan says:

      08:28am | 25/05/11

      Doesn’t matter what climate scientists say in the report .... the paper is being sold by Gaia man himself Mr Tim Flannery, the guy who turned out to be a false prophet who wandered around Australia preaching end is nigh… the dams will dry-up and rivers run dry, seas will rise, Arctic ice melt.  Well now 2011 and he is proved totally wrong. Nobody is listening to Flannery, only his loyalists Combet and Juliar of the No Carbon Tax lie.  Liars and scammers. Majority of Australia has woken up to that lot and any scientist who associates with them will be ridiculed. New faces and voices are needed if Climate Scientists want to be taken seriously, the self promoters cashing up on fear mongering have taken control of their scientific data and turned anthropogenic Climate Change into scam and farce

    • Brian Taylor says:

      08:28am | 25/05/11

      yet more crap from the Gillard Govt.
      I’m so pleased that we’ve got all these smart people to do our thinking for us, where would we be without them I wonder?
      I was thinking of sending an email to a smart professer asking him if I should put my left boot on before the right one.
      After all, if I were to put on the wrong one first, it might well be the cause of climate change, who knows? only the smart ones do
      get a life you “smart” people.
      get out of our lives.
      if you want to stop climate change, then stop breathing, after all the hot carbon coming from these twits when they talk rubbish, is helping to cause it.
      I am a denier and proud of it

    • John says:

      10:13am | 25/05/11

      It never ceases to amaze me that idiots are always proud to put their ignorance on full show!

    • Chell says:

      08:34am | 25/05/11

      It irritates me this kind of drivel is still being published- wtf Punch editors?!.  The ‘reputable scientists’ quoted here (with the exception of Lindzen) are not climatologists and have no peer reviewed work to support their claims that global warming either isn’t occurring or isn’t being caused by humans (they all have fat cheques from book publishers for the fiction they write on the topic though). 

      The petition Mikkelson quotes which he claims was “signed by 30,000 US scientists” allows anyone to sign and make up their own credentials- it is a meaningless document.

      We’ve had a proper scientific debate on this topic.  The basic principles of climate science have been well established for over 150 years and over this period climate science knowledge has become more and more detailed and refined. 

      The only debate about climate science and whether it is settled is in the media.  As an editor and a long term journalist you’d hope Mikkelsen would be more responsible in his research of this topic.  Instead he’s just gone for the easy, sensationalist option.

      Yawn.

    • Anubis says:

      09:33am | 25/05/11

      @ Chell - your much vaunted IPCC does not consist of climatologists either - for christ sake it is headed by a friggin’ railway engineer - Flannery is a paleontologist (he studies dinosaur bones), Professor Ross Gumnut is an economist and you feel that the scientists mentioned don’t measure up to your expected high standards. What a joke. You lot are religiously and fervently following the spoutings of a bloody diesel mechanic, a guy who digs holes and looks at bones and a bloody economist (they did so well predicting the GFC didn’t they, considering it was right in their “speciality” area. Cause you can trust everything they spout about the climate (particularly when they are getting paid 100’s of thousands of dollars a year to agree with the Gub,ment, who wouldn’t lie to you would they ?

      As for a “proper scientific debate” - what utter nonsense - the IPCC refuses to even acknowledge receipt of any reports that swerve from their standpoint, let alone discuss or debate them.

    • Tim says:

      09:51am | 25/05/11

      So you honestly believe that taxing carbon for Australians while simultaneously doubling our coal exports will reduce global emissions?
      Sorry mate, but whether it’s burnt here or in China, it’s still the same.

    • S.L says:

      08:35am | 25/05/11

      Do the climate alarmists actually look at the earths natural weather cycles? Ocean hight increase can not be measured in millimetres as has been reported in many alarmist papers in the past. How do you allow for waves and tides?
      The reported increase in temparature is utter rubbish. The late 1930s were hotter than it is now.
      What caused the warming when Vikings farmed in Greenland?
      I don’t for one minute believe the science is settled…......

    • persephone says:

      05:49pm | 25/05/11

      S.L

      it’s obvious from this post that you haven’t bothered to read - well, anything.

      1. Natural weather cycles have drivers. The weather just doesn’t say to itself “Heavens! I’ve been hot a bit too long. I’d better change now.”

      Something happens which causes the weather to change.

      When the climate changes as rapidly as it is at present, these drivers are usually big and obvious (increased volcanic or sunspot activity, meteorites hitting the earth, that sort of thing).

      Nothing like that is happening now.

      What is happening - and what fits in with the observable data - is that man is releasing a lot of CO2 and other gases into the air.

      2. Ocean height - allowing for tides and waves - has been recorded for decades (probably centuries). You can buy charts which tell you what the water height should be in certain locations months, if not years ahead. So any changes to these is really noticeable.

      3. No, they weren’t. The hottest years on record have occurred in the last decade. 2010 tied for the hottest year on record with another year this decade.

      4. The Vikings cheerfully farmed Greenland, yes. It was a period of warm climate, lasting decades, which was restricted to one area of the global. Other parts of the globe were relatively cooler, which meant that (overall) the global temperature wasn’t remarkably warmer than usual.

      5. No, you don’t believe the science is settled, because you’re still asking questions which even elementary research would have answered for you. If you wanted to believe the answers, that is.

    • Warwick says:

      08:56am | 25/05/11

      The amount of Australian coal that is burned here in Australia is very small in comparison with the huge amount that we send overseas. To tax the locally used product, while increasing our enormous exports as fast as we can, is ridiculous.

      Imagine Ms Gillard campaining to protect the population from dog attacks. She would be photographed with a Chihuahua wearing a muzzle while at the same time her huge, slavering, pit bull terrier roamed free, tearing off limbs and disembowelling.

    • watty says:

      09:01am | 25/05/11

      “A career journalist, former editor of regional daily The Observer in Gladstone”

      And this qualifies John as an “expert” on the “settled science” of Climate Change.??

      You ARE joking…..aren’t you?

    • Geoff Brown says:

      09:22am | 25/05/11

      Well, Watty, a failed US presidential candidate put out a science fiction film with more than 30 errors and people hold him up as a guru of the falsified AGW hypothesis. I’ll put my trust in the former editor.

    • Tim says:

      09:37am | 25/05/11

      expert or not, he makes a good point.

    • Flo says:

      09:47am | 25/05/11

      I think he should have contributed a recipe for pumpkin scones.
      It might have been something he was good at - although I actually don’t like pumpkin.

    • Bill says:

      09:23am | 25/05/11

      Come on all you deniers, just admit that the reason you don’t want to act is because you are lazy. Isn’t “not acting” or the unwillingness to not act very close to the literal definition of lazy? And to this you can’t say ‘we don’t want to act because the science isn’t settled/there is no proof”. Because what are the benefits of acting? Plenty. What are the benefits of not acting? Umm, that it will “wreck the economy”? That is laughable and you know it. Acting is more likely to stimulate the economy, if we just tried. Oh, but deniers don’t want to try. Why? Laziness.

    • NicoleG says:

      10:01am | 25/05/11

      So tell us how exactly this tax is going to stop climate change? I’d like to see a tax on stupidity. Do you think that will fix it? See it for what it is. Just another money grabbing exercise by this useless government.

    • Anubis says:

      10:39am | 25/05/11

      Okay Billy Boy - you said “Because what are the benefits of acting? ” Enlighten me, What are the benefits of acting? Are they the making it impossible for families to pay their utilities bills and still feed their families?
      OR
      Is it having no effect on Climate for at least a thousand years?
      OR
      Driving Australia’s manufacturing (what’s left of it) offshore?
      OR
      Closing down mining so that we are not exporting, thus destroying thousands of jobs, removing one of the most important tax revenue bases fir Australia?
      OR
      Destroying Australia’s international competitiveness?
      OR
      Sending 10% of the revenue raised through the carbon price to IPCC/UN for distribution to the corrupt governments of third world countries?
      OR
      Not directing funds to R&D into alternative energy sources?
      OR
      Compensating trade impacted industries, therefore removing incentive for them to shift to alternative energy?
      OR
      Refusing to even consider nuclear power (even though it is the only alternative that can provide base load power)?
      OR
      Driving up the price of petrol to the stage where most Australians can not afford it?
      OR
      The hundreds of thousands who will become unemployed because of the above measures (remembering that they will no longer be contributing to taxes and therefore be eligible for “generous” compensation). Just where will the money for this come from?
      OR
      As in Germany losing three jobs for every one “Green” job created?
      OR
      Giving Kevvy Rudd his UN position ($2 billion spent on this aim so far in increased “foreign Aid” to impress the UN on Australia’s credentials?

      Are there other “benefits” of acting that you can add to this list????

    • PTom says:

      10:40am | 25/05/11

      NicoleG
      “how exactly this tax is going to stop climate change” It is not going to stop cliamte change nothing will.  What the Price is about is to reduce our impact on the enviroment and slow back down the rate of change.

      BTW I agree with the tax on stupidity maybe you can contribute first.

    • NicoleG says:

      11:09am | 25/05/11

      Aww, why thank you PTom. As for this tax making a difference, you are just another gullible sheep. Now in future, if I want any shit outa you, I’ll squeeze your head.

    • LC says:

      12:04pm | 25/05/11

      @PTom

      We emit, what, 1.5% of the world’s emissions? Our (if you’re referring to Australia) impact on the climate is negligible.

      We can do whatever we want to cut down emissions, but the end of the day, it’ll mean diddly-squat unless China, India and the US get on board.

    • Anne_N says:

      03:41pm | 25/05/11

      If you want a preview of how either side of the government will ‘act likely to stimulate the economy’, have a look at how the Solar Bonus Scheme became a bivet.

    • Joel B1 says:

      10:10am | 25/05/11

      Woo Hoo! In before “but who’ll think of the children?” (MarK doesn’t count as it’s sarcasm… I hope)

    • Toscamaster says:

      10:35am | 25/05/11

      When people are embroiled in corruption they cannot see when they perpetuate that corruption.
      Will Steffen has been intimately involved in IPCC corruption of climate science for a long time. He actually thinks it is legitimate to do as his political masters ask of him thereby perpetuating the corruption that was kicked off by Maurice Strong in 1972. IPCC Reports for Policy Makers take precedence over scientific documentation; this is corruption writ large.
      Steffen was a prime participant in a Deliberative Forum at ANU in May 2010 that trained him and some 25 or so others in how to pull the wool over the eyes of the public on Climate Science. This was the predecessor to the Climate Commission.
      Steffen fervently believes that there is not a jot of credibility left in scientific discussions that do not comply with his own and the IPCC version of climate science. He said as much to a public forum in Geelong.
      It is not surprising that Flannery becomes tetchy when Steffen is answering questions. Given enough rope the day will come that Steffen is so outlandish that even compliant media will arc back and tear apart his unfounded statements. When that happens Flannery knows that he will wear the consequences of Steffen’s indiscretions.
      Members of media only need to insist that Steffen, Flannery and associated charlatans back up fear mongering statements with real world evidence - not BIBO computer modelling results.
      And solid investigative journalism into that Deliberative Forum will reveal that The Climate Commission is an absolute set-up.

    • Bill says:

      10:41am | 25/05/11

      A tax on stupidity - that’s a good idea. Maybe we should start with the deniers, who are making it impossible to take action, whatever be its kind. A tax is a way of hording the “stupid” masses away from their non-thinking, emission-making consumer habits. How else to change the behaviour of those with no consciousness about anything beyond their own patch?
      So there you go, the carbon tax is in fact, already a stupity tax. And at least it’s doing SOMETHING. Or perhaps you think doing nothing is the way to fix it?

    • Joel B1 says:

      11:00am | 25/05/11

      “the deniers, who are making it impossible to take action”

      What are you on?

      Out here in the real world, you know, outside your odd brain PM Gillard is in Government, and in a few months The Greens will have the balance of power in the Senate.

      The only thing stopping your stupid CO2 tax or ETS is the very sure knowledge PM Gillard has that that might mean the back-benches for her sooner than she hopes.

      “the deniers, who are making it impossible to take action”

      Nuts, bonkers, lies and mistruths. Still only to be expected from an alarmist.

    • Dash says:

      11:06am | 25/05/11

      @Bill, this is not about denial! This is about deceit by the ALP!

      As I’ve said above, the ALP are going to sell coal in increasing quantities to China. Their carbon tax will have nil impact on average global temperatures. The net impact is that we are actually contributing to an increase in Co2 emmissions!

      The ALP do not need a carbon tax to reduce our emmissions. They could do that by investing in nuclear energy just as they are doing in Great Britain.

      It all adds up to a fraud on the part of the Gillard government! They denied we would have a tax in the first place. Now they are using it to shore up their political position with the greens and to implement a socialist policy of wealth redistribution. That’s what this whole debate is about!

      Both sides are committed to a reduction in Co2 emmissions. People are not saying do nothing or in denial.

      I object to the ALP telling me they want to do something for the environment when they are intent on punishing my family on the basis of income and redirecting my money to households which pollute more than I do. That is not about the environment at all. FRAUD!

    • Geoff Brown says:

      11:46am | 25/05/11

      Bill mentions taxing the deniers. Bill the deniers are the people who do not accept that the science has moved on, the Vostok and Greenland Ice core samples show that increased CO2 does NOT cause warming but rather Increased warming causes atmospheric CO2 to rise. Besides the AGW hypothesis that CO2 is causing runaway global warming has been falsified. http://tiny.cc/70xrg
      End of game.

    • The Badger says:

      12:07pm | 25/05/11

      Dash
      Guess you and your like minded mates will have to go find a place that is running a one nation candidate, as they are the only ones who have a policy endorsing nuclear energy.
      Cutting off coal to China will only bring about some real nasty repercussions that will force you to seek asylum somewhere. Perhaps with your considerable wealth you could find a boat that might take you to Malaysia?
      China will reduce their emissions as more nuclear power stations and more renewable energy operations come on line.

      In the meantime, take Abbott’s advice and go plant a tree. The exercise will do you some good.

    • Dash says:

      12:40pm | 25/05/11

      The Badger - As usual, you add zero to the debate.

      And you still haven’t apologised to me for suggesting I don’t pay my fair share of tax! Coward!

    • The Badger says:

      08:49pm | 25/05/11

      Never said that dash, so why would I apologise?
      All you add to the debate is lists you get off the national party website.
      Nothing of substance there, Come up with some original thinking
      LIAR

    • Soames says:

      10:59am | 25/05/11

      “If some Pacific islands are gradually disappearing, is the sea rising or the islands sinking, as some sceptic scientists have long claimed?”

      1)  What’s the point of quoting non-specified “sceptic scientists’, an oxymoron on it’s own.
      2) How the author can produce an opinion piece here on the basis of short interviews on the ABC with both scientists, is dishonest, and ill-informed, considering the depth of the science. Has the author read the Climate Comission’s report? I think not.
      3) The rest of this bunch of words is equally based on frivolous statements as referred to in the first paragraph

    • Nobody cares says:

      10:21pm | 25/05/11

      Guess what, nobody cares about your opinion

    • gytr says:

      11:10am | 25/05/11

      I feel like a cracked record on this… To those who support that the “science is settled”, what is your response to CERN’s CLOUD experiment, and the preceding SKY experiments?

      You all seem to ignore the ramifications of the theory and experiments on man made climate change! By “all” I mean from the climate scientists who refuse to acknowledge its existence, politicians, through media representatives, and the so-called alarmists!

      You claim “deniers” are close minded.

    • Dementer says:

      12:36pm | 25/05/11

      CLOUD is an experiment that uses a cloud chamber to study the possible link between galactic cosmic rays and cloud formation.

      Big word there, POSSIBLE.

    • gytr says:

      12:58pm | 25/05/11

      Dementer, it has already produced aerosoles associated with cloud formation on the first run of the experiment in December 2010.

      Possible is pretty much wiped now. They (the team) are working on providing quantitave results now.

    • Anubis says:

      01:08pm | 25/05/11

      @Dementer - is that big word like the big words used in Jooolya’s great new report, you know the words, could, might, may, maybe, possibly contribute ???

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      11:22am | 25/05/11

      Sigh. Even if you agree with the evidence for AGW, the implementation of the counter measures is all wrong. There needs to be a carbon tax, no compensation, carbon tariffs, population stabilization, and development of nuclear power. Anything else is a waste of time.

    • cretin says:

      11:44am | 25/05/11

      I have a big problem with the way the information has been gathered.

      1.  The earth operates in cycles,.. such as the ice-age/interglacial cycle (typically 100,000yrs), nino/nina cycles, and many other that we truly do not understand.  How can we propose to say that the science is settled when we have barely scratched the surface in understanding the planetary cycles,.. and its own remediation and repair mechanisms?

      2.  Nowehere is ever mentioned the suns own cycles which could be a million years between or more!  We don’t know,... and this is our primary source of heat!!  Th sun could be going through a warm cycle right now?!!

      3.  We have been collecting data for only a hunder or so yrs.  The science behind core sampling & other measurements are not accurate enough to make temp rise calculations measures in 0.1degree increments from 200,000yrs ago.  Anyone who believes it can is truly deluding themselves.

      4.  All land areas (and water bodies in close proximity to land) whether built up or not are subject to heat island effects.  Therefore any temperature measurement is inherently flawed and interfered with,.. and therefore not a true representation of the ‘planets temperature’ (for want of a better term).

      This planets surface is almost 80% water covered,.. therefore temp readings should be taken primarily from the middle of the oceans,.. not from land based monitoring as every country in the world currently does.

      The planet may indeed be warming,.. however whether this is due to our activities,.. or the earths cycles or some other factor,..... we are far far away from knowing the answer.  To act now is sheer stupidity.  As evolved as we are,.. we are small children in this game trying to take on the wisdom of our grandparents.

      To put this into perspective, we are currently approximately 14,000yrs into our current interglacial cycle (of approx 20,000-30,000 yrs) which is not a linear cycle.  Theoretically then, we should therefore be approaching peak temperatures - about now,... before the earth starts cooling down over the next 10,000yrs ago in the builup to the next ice age.

      enough said i think.

    • michael j says:

      12:15pm | 25/05/11

      OK-Creatin-so if you are saying i get to ride my m/cycle for another 10 years before my death sounds v/good to me,,
      if you are saying we don’t need a carbone tax thats even better,,
      if you start a politcal party i will vote for you,,

    • G says:

      12:31pm | 25/05/11

      michaelj
      I think the cretin is talking about bi-cycles.
      Have you got one?

    • michael j says:

      04:35pm | 25/05/11

      @G-could be ? not any-more i don’t,, had to sell it to buy warm clothes,
      but it is of note that Creatin has reefers to nino/nina cycles i find these interesting in that one is always to hot ,the other too cold,so you need to take an average which can not be applied because it does not exist because its ,to hot or to cold,,so when it comes to cycles there is definitely a lot more to be learned,
      The truly big winners out of Global warming if it Exists will be B.P and Exxon,they won’t have to drill so far under the polar icecaps to get to the
      OIL they know is just waiting there to make them a good earn,,
      @Creatin-point 3 is well taken i was at a lecture once where a Palaeontologist who was so discouraged by the errors being found in carbon dating he became a Christian and starting teaching Creation,
      verses Evolution ,,so as you say ‘‘what’s’’ a few hundred thousand yeas matter,,

    • persephone says:

      07:56pm | 25/05/11

      1. ‘Cycles’ aren’t things which happen automatically, as the word and your usage of it seems to imply.

      ‘Cycles’ have causes.

      The La Nina/El Nino cycle, for example, is to do with ocean warming or cooling. We don’t just go into a La Nina because it’s time we did; the La Nina occurs because a change in the environment drives it.

      In the same way, we didn’t get an Ice Age just because it was ‘time’ in the ‘natural cycle’. There were causes which triggered it.

      The climate is changing very rapidly at present. Such a rapid change should have an obvious cause.

      AGW would appear to best fit all the observable facts.

      2. I think scientists would notice if the sun had suddenly got hotter, particularly if this increase in heat coincided with an increase in heat here.

      And if the sun’s cycle is somehow causing the earth to heat without the sun emitting more heat itself, well, that’s a really really neat trick and will result in the re writing of the laws of physics.

      3. Oh? On what basis do you think this?

      Have you evidence to demonstrate it? Where did it come from? How do you know that it’s accurate?

      Or are you just accepting something someone told you?

      I’m interested because I haven’t ever seen calculations done in 0.1 degree implements over 200,000 years. I’ve tried to google the info and can’t find any references. So where did this come from?

      4. So just as well they have things called buoys laden with temperature recording devices bobbing around in the ocean. Oh, and things called satellites which can measure the temperatures wherever someone wants them to.

      Basically, the whole place is pretty well covered.

      And are you really saying that our grandparents knew more about the climate than we do?

      As for your last bit - wow. So you know this, and all the world’s climate scientists have somehow missed it? There’s quite a few thousand of them, you know.

      It really does sound like you’re parroting something you actually don’t understand.

      Again, I’d be interested in your source, because I haven’t come across this information before. I have just tried googling it, with no results, so it’s obviously not generally known.

    • MarK says:

      10:43pm | 25/05/11

      cretin LOL.

      Mate look.

      Pers os right the science is ettled.

      A huige complex and chaotic system like climate doesn’t just change by itself. it needs a causative for it to happen.

      All of the reputable scientists in the world, as Tory showed us yesterday, know this.

      That is why they all got together and measured things. What they found was carbon pollution. And since all they found was carbon pollution this must be the cause if AGW.

      The science is settled. The temperature over years has been going up. The Barrier reef is dying. Floods and droughts and storms that the science predicted are happening. Look at the recent japanes Tsunami. More extreme events.

      So you can trust Pers.

      She lectured at uni. She may not be a scientist but since she lectured at uni she sort of is and scientists were defintely more than likely at the uni she lectured at which is the same thing so anyway she is an expert. like really good at this.

      With settled science what she and Tory and the IPCC and Will and tim goes.

      Simple stuff.

      Of course they will have to bring in a much higher tax than they thought and do other minor things like kill the coal industry but if we don’t our kids will be hurt and our grandkids too and that is bad.

      You see? It all follows. The science is settled and that is that.

    • MarK says:

      10:47pm | 25/05/11

      “Again, I’d be interested in your source, because I haven’t come across this information before. I have just tried googling it, with no results, so it’s obviously not generally known. “

      Don’t worry pers.

      Tory covered this. Google is bad mmk

      it is all made up anyway. The science is settled and a carbon price well north of $40 must be brought in else the kids and grandkids will pay for it with probably their lives. It is that serious. My kids and grandkids will die, sometime in the future.

      We need to act now or face bad stuff happening like earthquakes in Haiti as Danny Glover said or floods in Qld like Brown said. The truth is out there.

    • Bill says:

      11:50am | 25/05/11

      @Anubis: You have proven my point. You can’t see the benefits because you don’t want to. You don’t want to because you are lazy. Like all deniers all you can see is the negative - the negative being anything that involves not trying.
      But just to help you out here are a few of the benefits of acting:
      Promote innovation on clean energy technology;
      Establish a foundation incl infrastructure etc for clean energy to drive our industry. Doing this now not only gives us the jump on competitors but because it will be the norm at some point in the future makes it an investment one can hardly lose on;
      Gives us credibility and authority when dealing with buyers such as China and India in regards to their own clean energy practices - if we are practising clean energy usage we can demand it more from them;
      Cuts emissions, cuts pollution saving rivers, ecosystems, oceans etc;
      Gives our grandchildren less of a mess to clean up.

      Is that enough for you Anubis? Is there anything else you’d like me to do for you? Change your dirty clothes, tie your shoelaces?

    • Anubis says:

      01:25pm | 25/05/11

      No Billy Boy not enough. As nearly all of the tax raised is going to compensation to low income families, trade impaired industries, 10% to the IPCC and more to the New Govt. Dept. that is going to have to administer this, then where is the money coming from to “Promote innovation on clean energy technology;
      Establish a foundation incl infrastructure etc for clean energy to drive our industry”. Any idea on where this money will come from if not from the Carbon Tax which Joolya has already pre-committed to other things, while at the same time cutting numerous Green schemes. She has already emptied the Kitty to the tune of $100 billion dollars and is now trying to up Australia’s credit limit to $250 billion dollars. No money in the kitty Billy Boy so just where is the money for your grand new schemes going to come from.

      The tax will do nothing to cut emissions, cut pollution, save rivers, ecosystems or the environment as there will be no money left for these initiatives, But thank the Great Sky Fairy that you managed to get a variation on “For god’s sake think of the children”

      And just how do you think we are going to convince the likes of China to do anything. Hold back the resources from China and they are big enough to come and get it themselves. Oh, as for India, it might surprise you that they currently have a Carbon Tax - 5 rupee per tonne with coal excluded. Gee whiz, how can they have “dirty energy practices” if they already have a Carbon Tax???

      Billy Boy, do yourself a favour and pull your head out of the place the sun doesn’t shine, walk outdoors for something other than lodging your dole form and talk to some real people. You might then realise that the world isn’t made of sparkly rainbows, unicorns and green sky.

      Mate, you have swallowed the propaganda hook, line and sinker when you start spouting terms like “gives us the jump on competitors”

      Mind I have no objections to assisting the environment and helping industry to cut down on dirty practices but this can be done without a “sky is falling” scare campaign or a whopping new tax on everything.

      Anything else you need Billy Boy - Tie your shoelaces for you? Button your shirt, spoon feed you ? No, well then go away and play with the rest of the little kids and let the adults have a sensible, two sided debate - that’s a good boy.

    • Bill says:

      12:02pm | 25/05/11

      All I’m hearing, as usual, is excuses as to why a carbon tax can’t work. The trick is making it work. Just TRY and it might! But realise it’s going to involve pain and sacrifice of some kind. Either make it work or present us please with your alternative to reverse current toxic consumer behaviour. Because the need to reverse behaviour - to change - is something that is “settled”. Is it not?

    • Joel B1 says:

      12:26pm | 25/05/11

      Too bad we live in a democracy Bill.

      Why else isn’t PM Gillard just waiting for a month or two until her best mates the Greens have the balance of power in the senate?

      Why, because she knows that the claim “most Australians believe and want to be taxed” isn’t quite the truth is it?

      Maybe we should just “suspend democracy” like some nut-job alarmists want?

    • Tim says:

      12:40pm | 25/05/11

      pain and sacrifice by people other than you obviously. gambling the national economy on a hair brained scheme to clear the conscience of some inner city trendies is ridiculous.

      Looks like the ‘it’s ok to fail as long as you tried’ generation is all grown up!!

    • Harquebus says:

      12:18pm | 25/05/11

      The government has gambled a bet that it can not win.

      “Physical exhaustion is only one way that the world can be deprived of the oil production flows it would like. Other threats are:
        * Physical constraints – if rebels blow up pipelines or there are wars or revolutions, eg Libya, Nigeria, etc.
        * Financial constraints – where the money is either not available or the host government doesn’t allow companies with the money to invest, eg Venezuela, Mexico, etc.
        * Political constraints – where a political decision not to produce or not to export is made. All Opec quotas are political constraints, while recent statements by both Russia and Saudi Arabia that they may cap capacity at current levels would become major constraints if literally implemented.”

      http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/feature/2072365/develop-business-plan-oil-depletion

    • Opec Advisor says:

      12:34pm | 25/05/11

      If you used flash, you would know better.

    • Harquebus says:

      11:39am | 26/05/11

      Funny now OA. Not so funny when things start to bite. Good luck.

    • Cactus says:

      12:21pm | 25/05/11

      The Galileo Movement has a response to the Climate Commission’s key messages in “The Critical Decade” . It’s down loadable from the web site of the Galileo Movement. The sort of thing all alarmists would want to critique.

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      12:23pm | 25/05/11

      Tim Flannery, it was reported a few weeks ago, is being paid $180,000 per year by the Gillard ALP Government to be Climate Commissioner. He, just like all the other ALP appointments to their cosy little CCC will report exactly as Jooolya et al. want them to do. This CCC is nothing more, nor less, than a political wedge between rational, intelligent debate on the entire CC issue. Sure, CC is, I believe, real BUT no-one & certainly not this CCC have been able to prove, as they would have us believe, that CC is all down to us humans & not a combination of both Natural & human events & actions..
      In case they are wrong, & they may very well may be, they are justifying the variations in expected rises in sea levels - between .7 metres & 1 metre+ on the grounds that some Pacific Islands may be sinking into the seat rather than sea levels actually rising!
      Like it or not the fact is that these so-called experts actually don’t have a clue as to what is happening & in all probability are basing their entire theories on “Computer Modelling”. Computer Modelling will only ever give the results those entering the data want to get. The entire science of Computer Modelling is all based on a “What if?” scenario. May be the CCC, having solved the problem of variations in rises in sea levels will now explain why there are variations in possible Temperature Levels as well. Depending on which of the numerous “Official” reports one reads those temperature rises vary between 0.5 degrees & 2 degrees. Why the discrepencies? Or are these reports based solely on Computer Modelling & the alleged “Experts” really haven’t a clue as to what is really happening?
      The whole issue has been clouded by politicians around the world. They have, rather than sitting down & nutting the whole issue out by taking into account all views - both those of CC believers & those who have some doubts. The expensive money-wasting Copenhagen Conference was a perfect example of politicians interference. No matter how much spin & lies were applied to it, it was an unmitigated disaster. An expensive junket for politicians.
      Remember the devastating Vic Bushfires & later floods? The floods in Qld & bushfires in WA? Some of the so-called experts tried to tell us that they were all down to Climate Change.
      The real experts, scientists & meteorologists, soon put paid to those claims. The CC ‘experts’ suddenly fell silent & changed the subject!
      Sure, we should stop pumping muck into the air, land & waters. Sure, we are contributing to the world’s pollution problems but only we as individuals can address those issues.

    • Soames says:

      12:30pm | 25/05/11

      cretin,

      Please, change your ‘name’. It’s not inducive to serious comment, although you’re probably serious about climate change, but lets take this paragrah by paragraph;
      1) The first one is a bunch of rubbish, the earth does not repeat itself in chromatic cycle, on a supposed mathematical equation. There is no timescale peer reviewed science on this event.
      2) The only solar events known scientifically over a lengthly period, are solar flares, affecting radio activity distortion of generated terrestrial waveforms and receptions, polar magnetic compass & true compass variations, and unknown to the wider audience, the bubble count rising to the top of a glass of sparkling, frothy beer during the summer months.
      3) Can’t be arsed to read the rest, but , here’s a hint; to the best of your ability, select a search engine with integrity. Good luck there mate, I wish you well. Peace.

    • cretin says:

      01:36pm | 25/05/11

      soames,  no search engine required my friend.

      All planets, including both the earth & the sun operate in cycles so large that we cannot accurately gauge their extent or effects.  There is proof they exist, but we cannot accurately gauge them. 

      For example, If the sun has been in a particularly heightened state for the last 200,000yrs (a comparatively short timeframe in its timescale),.. how would we know? 
      We know about the previous ice ages,.. but not accurately when and for how long,.. we can only measure to the nearest few thousand years or so. 

      While im on the topic,.. the ice ages very existence and frequency is proof that the earth indeed operates in cycles,... refuting your first point.  Most natural phenomenom is cyclical in nature. 

      Suggest a little wider reading on your part.

    • persephone says:

      09:18am | 26/05/11

      cretin

      we would notice if the sun had been getting warmer over the last few decades.

      What we are noticing is that the earth is.

      Again, acquaint yourself with the laws of physics, or even basic meteorology.

      Unless you believe that the earth IS a living entity, with a consciousness (and please, don’t anyone take this as a belief of mine) then changes in climate are driven by causes.

      In this case, the cause has been identified.

    • Trent says:

      12:34pm | 25/05/11

      Just looking at it from a joe public point of view global warming appears to be a black art.

      Governments arent exaclty running to cut carbon to save the planet.

      If a bloke runs around saying his house is on fire and quitely sits back and has a beer, you tend to question his claim. But if he get get the family out rings the fire brigade,  start to hose it down himself. You tend to take his claim a little more seriously.

      From global governments and the australian government it looks to me like they dont really believe it real. They are having a beer on the issue.  Gillard went to the election saying no carbon tax. She obviously thinks the science is a bit dodgey, The greens forced the issue.

      If 80% of australias farm land will be destroyed in it means australia and much of the region will suffer massive famine. I just dont see that governments are in a hurry,.

    • Jim (remember him?) says:

      12:48pm | 25/05/11

      This is great. Not only have we inadvertently prevented a new ice age, but if the sea levels rise a metre,  I’m that much closer to being on a waterfrontage.
      It’s all good.
      Just don’t let that Karl Popper bloke hear you saying the science is settled,  or you’ll get a big argument from him about how scientific theories only stand up if they are constantly tested.

    • The Duke says:

      01:32pm | 25/05/11

      And more places to fish—to replace all the waters the Greens locked us out of with marine parks

    • Just Sayin' says:

      12:59pm | 25/05/11

      If the land is sinking, surely we should remove as much heavy coal as possible and send it to China, to lighten us up a bit?

    • John Mikkelsen says:

      01:04pm | 25/05/11

      @ CJ way above, “do I detect a softening in Mikko’s “skepticism” of late? ” What the? has someone been impersonating me? You obviously didn’t read my last effort at The Drum, which Aunty has pulled up just shy of 650 comments last time I checked. http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2645952.html
      Meanwhile Flo, could you send me some scones?

    • CJ Morgan says:

      03:09pm | 25/05/11

      Sorry Mikko - wishful thinking on my part, I guess.  But you didn’t answer my question, i.e.do you still deny that the planet is warming, most probably due in large part to human activity?

    • CJ Morgan says:

      03:38pm | 25/05/11

      @ Mikko:

      My apology.  I should have known you’ve painted yourself so far into the denialist corner that you’re beyond redemption.  I suppose it gets harder to admit you’re wrong with every rant that you get published.

      Just for record, do you deny that the earth’s climate is warming, most probably as a result of human activities?  A simple yes or no will suffice, thanks.

    • Polly says:

      01:48pm | 25/05/11

      I would sooner read and believe this article than anything Gillard and her committee come up with. http://www.galileomovement.com.au/       
      I agree also with the petition signed by leading world scientists - refuting man-made global warming.
      Anything Labor and the Greens come up with needs to be closely scutinised and questioned because they have a history of untruths and spin.

    • MarK says:

      02:06pm | 25/05/11

      People please.

      So much neagtivity and Truthers.

      Gillard has to act.

      What price is reasonable given the severity of the situation and how can she let the Big Polluter foreign billionaires in the coal industry stay open.

      It is a Green future and Bill Gates is not the only smart one.

      The science is settled.

      Name the correct price.

    • Col. of Blackburn says:

      02:06pm | 25/05/11

      @Mikko
      Perhaps your goodself, Flim Flam, Uncle Bob, JuLIAR et al could explain to a poor schmuck like me how the sea level rise can be more severe in Northern Australia than elsewhere? I was taught all that long time ago in High School that water always found its own level. If it is rising by 10cm, then it is rising by 10cm all around the world. I know that there can be local anomalies such as tides, barometric pressure etc, but in the main sea level is still sea level!
      Still, I am sure that @PercyTelephone will have a logical answer for us all! wink

    • Independent Veteran Scientist says:

      02:25pm | 25/05/11

      The Climate Commission is Soviet Russia in style complete with the outcomes that match what ALP and the Greens want.  No debate, no explanation, just ‘the science is settled’, ‘consensus’ and that is that.  Australia’s economy based upon our natural advantages is sent back to the stone age all to drop the planets temperature by 0.0000000001% of degree in 1000 years.

      Science is never ‘settled’.  Consensus is not fact.  (Tens of thousands of INDEPENDENT scientists reject the AGW model).  This is quack science in its purest form.

      The only people to benefit are the ego’s of the Green fascists, the scientists on the public handout (if it warms we need more money, if it cools - see how good a job we are doing), the carbon credit wall street traders (Al Gore, Malcolm Turnbull), and the obscene grants for bogus technology that will NEVER EVER produce baseload power (Tim Flannery - 90 million dollar grant from Kevin Rudd for geo-thermal energy - which failed).

      It is a scam is a scam is a scam.

    • Anubis says:

      02:50pm | 25/05/11

      Update there Independent Veteran Scientist - Apparently Timmy “FLIM FLAM” Flannery has thrown $400 million dollars down his hole in the outback with absolutely 0 watts of energy being produced. How could it be a scam - he tried he really, really, really did. How about we given him another grant from this new fangled Carbon Tax pot-o-money so he can dig another hole?

    • Independent Veteran Scientist says:

      03:14pm | 25/05/11

      Anubis,

      It would be a comedy series if it were not so real and OUR money!

      This stuff needs to be exposed in the public domain.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      08:36pm | 25/05/11

      “It would be a comedy series if it were not so real and OUR money!”

      No! No! no! its not your money! it’s only your money if the government allow you to keep it!

      Under the liberals you have no rights to an unearned profit.
      Under labor you have no right to keep an earned profit
      Under the greens, profit? what profit?

    • Harry says:

      02:37pm | 25/05/11

      Tim Flannery said that our dams will never fill again and that Perth would run out of water a few years ago.  He has stated this.  He did not predict the Qld floods.  He pressured the ALP govts to build desal plants at a cost of billions more than a couple more dams that would do the job.

      His AGW model doesn’t work.  He is an alarmist to sell his books.  NOTHING he has stated has come true or has been remotely correct BEFORE the fact.

      This twit is dictating the wrecking of our economy for the what??  A drop of MAYBE less than a degree within 1000 years???  He is a nutter snake oil saleman.

      Why are we not having a proper debate on this critical topic in public with a royal commission with INDEPENDENT scientists??

      Everything Gillard and the ALP touches reeks of dodgy deals and deceit.

    • MarK says:

      04:09pm | 25/05/11

      Sigh.

      Harry didn’t you read the report.

      Read it carefully and understand that the science is in. Gillard said so from the reports findings.

      She now MUST act with a high Carbon Tax, drop the compensation package and close down the coal industry.

      To do anything else would be to deny the report.

      To deny the report is to do nothing.

      Tokenism will not save us in a decade. We must lead the world which is all doing something. Even China is reducing its’ emsiions. iansand told us that and he is a lawyer and only deals in the truth.

      We will reap vast quantities of Green jobs and have an economy even more so Green founded and thus more robust than Europe which is the paragon of virtue in a world slow to catch up.

      It is the only course of action Gillard has

    • Harry says:

      06:24pm | 25/05/11

      Sigh?  Man up.

      China’s emissions are going through the roof.
      The UK relies on nuclear energy.

      This is all a joke.

    • MarK says:

      07:32pm | 25/05/11

      Look iansand is a lawyer and he said this was true.

      A lawyer has to have gone to uni. Sure he might not be a “scientist” but there are scientists at university and lawyers tell the truth so I need some facts. Be careful not to search with Google though as that will not work here. Google links mean nothing.

      We need settled science or facts from universities. I mean it is the only way to be sure

    • Sam P says:

      03:16pm | 25/05/11

      There is a spelling error in the title of this article.

      The last word is missing the ‘sh’.

    • John Mikkelsen says:

      05:06pm | 25/05/11

      Exactly, but I didn’t write it, LOL

    • Anubis says:

      03:51pm | 25/05/11

      And your point is - The terminal was built like that and if you look at how the ships are sitting in relation to the wharf you will note that is a high tide photo. Nothing out of the ordinary in that photo - that’s how the place was designed

    • RyaN says:

      05:14pm | 25/05/11

      @John Mikkelsen: yep and apparently the sea levels are rising in Brisbane faster than anywhere else in the world, we are doomed, oh why won’t people think of the children!

    • Dept of Carbon Elimination says:

      04:12pm | 25/05/11

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    • Bill says:

      05:23pm | 25/05/11

      @Anibus, independent veteran scientist, Harry, Dash, Geoff Brown (the link hasn’t convinced me Geoff) etc: I still haven’t heard any alternatives from you as to what we can actually do to abate our destructive (human) behaviour. If the carbon tax is so rubbish, what else do you propose?

    • Sony B Goode says:

      06:46pm | 25/05/11

      Nathan Myhrvold had a simple solution, controled duplication of the actions of volcanoes

      <a >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6879251.ece</a>

      but lets not let simplicity get in the way of a good excuse for a Great Big Tax on EVERYTHING. (couldnt help myself…:)

    • Anubis says:

      11:03pm | 25/05/11

      What Billy Boy, no witty remarks to my last response to you? I thought that at least you could have provided some suggestions as to the funding for your two (2) benefits for acting now, as opposed to the the list of outcomes I listed. You could at least have attempted to discount even part of that list. You also haven’t stated just how Australia acting now (and destroying it’s own economy in the process) is going to stop the (supposed) Climate Change. NOTE: Climate change not Global Warming as the IPCC abandoned that term because it was too inconvenient.

      So Bill
      1. What benefits???
      2. How much mitigation??
      3. What negatives???

      No - didn’t think so. Go back and play with the other kiddies while the adults talk.

    • Bill says:

      05:25pm | 25/05/11

      Actually, its too hard. You know what guys, I think I’ve changed my mind about this whole thing, and you are right. I think it’s just one bloody big conspiracy. Flannery and Julia and the gang I think are just plain old bored - and greedy - and I reckon they’ve just created this whole thing for something to do, to pull the wool over our naive eyes and line their back pockets. We don’t need to change at all. We should be building bigger hummers, buying more plasmas, chewing more coal. Bugger the rivers and the oceans. We should be polluting MORE god dammit. Long live material indulgence and unconscious use of resources! You know what I mean? That’s really living baby’!!!

    • Anubis says:

      11:13pm | 25/05/11

      Oh Billy Boy - I did not say it was too hard laddie. I did state in a previous response to you that action was needed to reduce pollution and move to more sustainable energy. However, the only available technology to provide Base Load is nuclear but you Greens just won’t even consider that. As for pollution (I mean real pollution not the trace element of Carbon Dioxide) there are already mechanisms in place to handle this but the Government just won’t give the EPA the power.  The world proved it can take action when needed in the way CFC’s were banned internationally, and that did not require a big new tax. If Co2 is such a dire threat then why are Governments doing bugger all other than creating new streams of revenue for them to redistribute. Why do major Government players not do what they are telling everyone else to do, drive hybrids, don’t live in waterfront suburbs, minimise air travel to bare essentials?  It is because it is all crap and what they are demonstrating is the “Do as I say not as I do” mentality.

      BTW - I do not own a plasma, do not own a 4wd Urban battle tank, have installed solar power and solar hot water. What have you done Billy Boy???

    • John Mikkelsen says:

      05:40pm | 25/05/11

      @ MarKy, you might have caught me on the hop with your first hook early this morning but you can’t keep taking the piss out of an old piss-taker, Pers, who is Mikkelson? Another offshoot of the clan like cousin Phil the golfer? CJ in a word, No.
      Sorry you warmists (not you MarK) are a bit outnumbered, but three or four of you singing out of the same hymn book doesn’t make your religion right anymore than standing in a garage in Maranello would make you a Ferrari.

    • persephone says:

      09:23pm | 25/05/11

      JM

      To think that earlier you were saying you hadn’t been caught out by MarK! How a few hours changes one’s perspective.

      Oh, and three out of four of us singing out of whatever hymn book you like doesn’t mean we’re wrong. Neither does being outnumbered.

      The fact you regard climate change as a religion rather than as a science simply demonstrates your refusal to confront the facts.

      Just as well you didn’t read the report before you decided it was rubbish. Saved you some time.

      I mean, who’d want to learn anything new, when they know it all already?

    • Scranbag says:

      07:15am | 26/05/11

      It is not a matter of belief.

      It’s the sheer weight of 40 years of studies, of thousands of years worth of information, direct and indirect.

      I often agree with Persephone. Often, but not always.

      I like the easier style of her posts: against eg my rather dryer offerings. 

      And I’m not going to accept that sly “hymn book” jibe either.

      I decide what topics I post on, and the manner in which I post.

      I decide the material that I refer to, quote or summarise in posting.

      There is a range of excellent material freely available in libraries, bookshops and on the web. It is *wholly* unsurprising that people with inquiring minds find their way to the same sound sources - why pick second rate, when first-hand quality material is ready to hand?

      I choose to use a lot more “heavy” original online material. So be it. That’s my way.

      The aim is to let readers look and spend a few minutes nutting out for themselves whether data and conclusions are reasonable.

      *No-one* tells me, a plain old private citizen, what to think, what to read, and what to do.  No-one.

    • John Mikkelsen says:

      08:32am | 26/05/11

      Haha Pers, I was just waiting for you to put your foot in your mouth again. Re: “Scroll down a bit, guys - you’ll find a post where Mikkelson admits he hasn’t read the report. So my assumption (based on the contents of his article) was 100% correct.”
      Read it again. Maybe I baited another hook and you just swallowed it, sinker and all. Guess that degree of yours isn’t in psychology, but doesn’t matter. BTW, TICitis is rampant on this thread, maybe Tors had her tongue a bit sideways the other day too. Who knows, she got lots of bites anyway.

    • persephone says:

      09:26am | 26/05/11

      I thought you said you weren’t the person I was referring to.

      Make up your mind.

    • Scranbag says:

      09:44am | 26/05/11

      Persephone, you made a minor misspelling of his name.

      Mikkelsen, not Mikkelson.

      Don’t let it get under your skin and keep on sticking to your guns.

      best regards
      Scranbag

    • CJ Morgan says:

      05:01pm | 26/05/11

      @ persephone and Scranbag:

      I’ve noticed that Mikko’s approach to ‘debate’ is what most of us regard as ‘trolling’.  Too many years running the local rag in a mining town, I’d say.

      I used to find him moderately entertaining, but lately he seems all snark and precious little wit.  Maybe that’s what happens when you paint yourself so irrevocably into the dunce’s corner.

    • Scranbag says:

      05:33pm | 26/05/11

      Thanks. Indeed so.

      There’s no value in jibes sly,  or in insults direct. There’s none, either, in replying in kind. 

      Equally, it is perfectly in order to make a civil rebuttal of plain misinformation and falsity.

      A poster’s veneer of studied, deliberate rudeness should not protect them from being held politely to account for their own misinformation.

    • persephone says:

      06:14pm | 26/05/11

      Yes, he seems to be playing gotchas with contributors, rather than engaging in debate, which I have to say I find a bit warped.

      People who pose questions and then don’t want to discuss the answers are basically being dishonest; pretending they’re interested in a discussion when they’re not.

    • Wayne says:

      07:02pm | 25/05/11

      I have an idea. Put a tick box on the tax return, if you wish to pay this useless carbon tax you tick the box and the government send you a bill for a percentage of your income. If you don’t believe in this useless tax you don’t tick the box and then you dont pay. Simple, then everybody is happy, those wanting to pay can and those not wanting a bar of this tax dont pay. Carbon tax does not equal the solution to climate change, as even if we cut all our emissions in Australia to zero there will be no effect on the global temperature, no change to the global change in sea level. And if KRudd said it was such a critical issue in 2007, has the sky fallen because we don’t have an ETS now? I overheard a discussion about the terrible tornadoes in America, and somebody said if Krudd introduced the ETS you know there would not have been those tornadoes. This is nonsense but shows the gullability of some to the Labor scare campaign

    • Krudd says:

      07:37pm | 25/05/11

      Does your mum know you are on the computer?

    • Scranbag says:

      06:43am | 26/05/11

      The carbon price is not a tax levied by the ATO on *individuals*.

      The carbon price is paid *directly* only by certain major industries.

      The extent to which that is passed on to consumers depends on
      a) how much industry lifts efficiency to reduce the price it pays
      b) how much private households raise the efficiency of their *own* energy usage
      and finally
      c) the amount of rebate credited to households for any costs increases, paid from the funds raised by the carbon price.

      On the last set of modelling, the estimated impact on families of middle income and below, the net impact was effectively zero.

      The idea that the carbon price is a direct tax on individuals is misinformation, slyly encouraged by Liberal-National spokes-persons. It’s a con. It’s wrong.

      The carbon price is *not* a direct tax levied on individuals.

    • Wayne says:

      09:13am | 26/05/11

      Scranbag, I wondered who would bite. It may not be a direct tax but people will still pay as those businesses impacted by cost increases will pass it on, whether it is due to electricity cost increases, fuel cost increases etc. So consumers will pay. Dress it up how you like but extra money going out of the household income whether it be direct or indirect is still an outflow. And what is more the carbon tax will be ramped up from a low base (scary). This Carbon tax is nothing more than wealth redistribution by stealth. Australias impact will not impact global atmospheric CO2 by any measurable amount, nor will it change the climate. But it will cripple our economy as there are no viable base load alternatives yet (we need R&D to develop these not a massive new tax) and I cant see solar powered tractors being used to plant grain to produce food..

    • Scranbag says:

      09:37am | 26/05/11

      My original reply stands.

    • Andy_G55 says:

      07:12pm | 25/05/11

      C’mon guys, we all KNOW the science is SETTLED. (because Will told us so)

      there is NOTHING to argue about.

      Absolutely no inconsistencies in Climate Science

      None at all !!!  wink)

    • Bikinis On Top says:

      07:37pm | 25/05/11

      with each new federal government this century, we get a new unpopular controversial tax. Howard gave us the GST.Now Gillard gives us Carbon Tax.
      Thanks very much.
      Do we really want a change of federal government and a possible new tax this century??

    • James Darby says:

      01:54am | 26/05/11

      Tim Flannery proves his zero credit as a witness by quoting Al Gore. The way that Julia slivered down the stairway to join a session of TCC was as secondary maggot mixing with their own kind on the meat of enterprise. What a sour bunch of blinded socialists melding together for the greater good. And what a great thing is Apac to broadcast IT live. The pain I went through to watch IT as left me agast.

    • Scranbag says:

      09:04am | 26/05/11

      There’s been a lot of talk here and on other threads about cycles. Sun cycles, Ice Age cycles, etc. It’s wrong to suggest that the effect of either has somehow been missed from all the climate measuring and analysis since the 1970s.

      The combined effects of terrestrial and orbital cycles are well known and have been looked at and discussed for about a century, and in the man-made warming context for decades. 

      The combined effects are referred to as the Milankovic cycle.  The contribution of that to global temperature change, and thus to global temperature and Ice Age cycles, is well known and well covered in climate change literature.

      McKibbin, eg used an excellent graph of some very long period temp derivations to great effect in his public lectures several years ago. Saw them. The point being that recent (100 yr or so ) rises are far larger than anything seen before. Far larger. And still present after allowing for the whole gamut of Milankovic cycle effects.

      In short the next Ice Age - whenever it is due - will not wipe out our own contribution to warming. Lately I’ve been reading some very current papers on the most recent data on climate etc, while we wait for the next round of IPCC reports.

      So here’s what Hansen & Sato have to say on Milankovic cycles.

      “Milankovic climate oscillations help define climate sensitivity and assess potential human-made climate effects. We conclude that Earth in the warmest interglacial periods was less than 1°C warmer than in the Holocene and that goals of limiting human-made warming to 2°C and CO2 to 450 ppm are prescriptions for disaster. Polar warmth in prior interglacials and the Pliocene does not imply that a significant cushion remains between today’s climate and dangerous warming, rather that Earth today is poised to experience strong amplifying polar feedbacks in response to moderate additional warming. Deglaciation, disintegration of ice sheets, is nonlinear, spurred by amplifying feedbacks. If warming reaches a level that forces deglaciation, the rate of sea level rise will depend on the doubling time for ice sheet mass loss. Gravity satellite data, although too brief to be conclusive, are consistent with a doubling time of 10 years or less, implying the possibility of multi-meter sea level rise this century. The emerging shift to accelerating ice sheet mass loss supports our conclusion that Earth’s temperature has returned to at least the Holocene maximum. Rapid reduction of fossil fuel emissions is required for humanity to succeed in preserving a planet resembling the one on which civilization developed.”
      http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/2011/20110118_MilankovicPaper.pdf

      Hansen is a well-known leading and experience researcher at the Goddard Institute. The paper’s from 2011 and calls on the most recent data. No apologies for it’s density. If you want not to be misled, you need to try and do a little work in coming to grips with the data.

      The effect of solar irradiance (solar cycle) variations is also well-known, catered for,  and worth a reference of its own. Later.

    • Daniel says:

      11:31am | 26/05/11

      How would you convince a population it needs to pay to prevent a future problem it simply cannot understand?  I think people need to come to the realization that most people due to their limited education in complex scientific matters WILL NOT BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE.  And even less are willing to put in the effort to even try.

    • CheGuava says:

      11:57am | 26/05/11

      Can Fluffer Flannery share with us what weed is he smoking? Judging on his book it must be really good stuff! Maybe Jooliah can issue an edict to all of Australia to compulsory smoke that stuff so that we could believe all the excrement and lies Labor/Greens Marxist alliance is heaping on us whilst taking us at everincreasing speed towards powerty and third world countries level.

    • John Mikkelsen says:

      12:42pm | 26/05/11

      Lots of good fishermen on this thread. It’s such a beautiful sunny day here, global warming and all, I’m off to catch some real fish (hopefully).

    • Evil Climate Scientist says:

      02:29pm | 26/05/11

      You fools our plan to tax you all is nearly complete soon you will all be paying an extra 6 cents per litre at the petrol pump with that revenue the federal government might fund a 3% increase to scientists all across the country muhahahahahahahhaha haha, all of that time we spend at our secret scientist convention in secret location X with 5000 of our brethern (all of whom remarkably kept the secret) was totally worth it.  The super genius known as Alan Jones nearly rumbled out game, fortunatly half of his audience has now died of natural causes and so ultimately we will triumph.

    • Garnautofix says:

      05:33pm | 26/05/11

      Little titbit about ptom, a left wing green activist and keen associate of the Australian Socialist Movement.
      Well qualified for sure….....

    • Cactus says:

      10:31pm | 26/05/11

      How could anyone take the administration of the new green technology revolution seriously. Nothing wrong with solar power, I live with it and it alone, happily ,but I note my batteries are getting old and I am told there has been no improvement in the battery technology since my original 2005 models. Not good for this fast moving, 21st Century technology that’s going to save the planet. Also I note a sad letter to the editor in local rag from one of our most committed green people about the absolute rip off feeding power back into the grid. No credit worth speaking of that she has been able to squeeze out of the system. Reality now sort of blows the promises of the future nirvana of grid feedback, out of the water.

    • John Mikkelsen says:

      07:22am | 27/05/11

      Yes Cactus and it will be a cold day in hell before solar power, wind power or any of the other big green elephants provide base load power generation. And Clean Coal? Please that’s an oxymoron, just ask Anna Blight who wasted another $150 million of Qld taxpayers” money on the Zero Gen project in CQ before realising it was a pipe dream and walking away, no apologies thanks. The concept of storing CO2 underground is never going to work here or in the UK. Imagine a huge underground reservoir if they ever could get this “dangerous pollutant” down there, then you have an earth tremor big enough to cause a few cracks in the concrete seal, or a full blown earthquake. You would not want to be living anywhere nearby as you can’t breathe pure CO2 and suddenly all that gas is back in the atmosphere. Wind farms also have pollution problems (check out the vast inland toxic lake in China where they make the magnets), plus well documented adverse health effects on anyone living near the windmills.

    • carbon unit says:

      01:11pm | 27/05/11

      Word of advice to Comrade MarK on the Fiercely IndependenT Climate Change Committee….....
      These clowns are Gillard/Brown handpicked yeah sayers elected the same way a Communist Party Committee is and was elected.
      The modus operandi is the Club of Rome agenda first flagged some 40 years ago mapping the way to global Marxist rule and using environmetal concerns as a vehicle.
      That info is freely available, see “Quotes from Club of Rome, UN IPCC et al”.
      I have strong suspicion that you are one of Gillard/Browns’ foot soldiers tasked with selling all this cr.p aimed at destruction of Australia.

    • jf says:

      11:44am | 28/05/11

      Oh dear, carbon unit. I’m a bit embarrassed for you. Have a read through the threads old mate.

    • Lauren29Hensley says:

      10:25am | 28/05/11

      People deserve wealthy life time and mortgage loans or student loan would make it much better. Just because freedom is based on money.

    • de beers says:

      11:40am | 28/05/11

      For those of us living in the Surat basin it is blatantly obvious of the State & Federal Governments gross hypocrisy of bleating about climate change and at the very same time pushing for the maximum amount of coal & coal seam gas to be extracted & exported and dam the consequences. Thank you John Mikkelsen for pointing this out in your article.

    • Cactus says:

      09:32pm | 28/05/11

      Yes de Beers, and very strange to see State and Federal lady leaders smiling and laughing in Gladstone yesterday because they were invited to view the site of the new LNG plant. Must be very upsetting for them when they go home and try to lie straight in bed.

    • blackcat says:

      11:13am | 29/05/11

      Many years ago there was an advertisement on 2UE radio for Brian Bury. It went like this: “Brian told me…Brian told me so… I know everything I need to know cos Brian told me so.” - It surprises me that neither Julia Gillard nor Bob Brown have considered using this theme in their efforts to convert all of us to “politically correct” thinking. ... Years ago when we saw someone holding up a sign saying: “the end of the world is coming” we used to write such people off as demented and throw them a sympathetic glance. When scientists tell us to effectively stop breathing and politicians agree with them we should tell them to change the laws on voluntary euthanesia.

    • Fleur de lis says:

      04:07pm | 29/05/11

      Fantastic article John Mikkelsen.  You hit the nail fairly and squarely on the head when you said, “it must be rank hypocrisy or stupidity for the government to continue exploiting what it says it accepts is a major culprit in driving climate change.”

      This sentiment echoed by de Beers: 
      de beers says: 11:40am | 28/05/11
      For those of us living in the Surat basin it is blatantly obvious of the State & Federal Governments gross hypocrisy of bleating about climate change and at the very same time pushing for the maximum amount of coal & coal seam gas to be extracted & exported and dam the consequences. Thank you John Mikkelsen for pointing this out in your article.

      Absolutely ‘rank hypocrisy’ as you say, John.  The double standards of the government are totally unbelievable.  Now that they have unequivocally declared that the ‘science is settled’, they should put their money where their mouth is.  If they genuinely believe that the burning of fossil fuels has such dire consequences for Earth’s climate -  they should forthwith cease all export of coal to China and elsewhere.  Only then could we begin to take their outlandish AGW claims seriously.

      What preposterous, hypocritical absurdity to penalise Australians yet actually actively encourage so-called pollution by other countries!

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