The carbon debate at the moment is a bit like the story of Chicken Little. Just as Chicken Little declared that the sky was falling, we’re seeing a lot of people in the business community claiming that the introduction of a carbon price will spell disaster for Australian exports, jobs and industries.

(We cheated here and went for the Hokey Pokey rather than Henny Penny. But the clip is worth a re-visit.)

BHP Billiton and Xstrata want protection on coal exports; BlueScope Steel and OneSteel want steel manufacturing exempted from a carbon price; Woodside Petroleum want LNG exports to be exempted from a carbon price.  To top it off, we’ve had the Australian Workers Union declare its opposition if a single job is lost as a result of a carbon price. And the Australian Food and Grocery Council is now calling for exemptions and running the line that food prices will rise.

You would be forgiven for thinking the Chicken is right.

Of course, it’s only natural that these concerns, fears and demands are feeding into the political debate being fought by our nation’s politicians. It would be strange if it wasn’t so.

But like Chicken Little, these fears are not just overblown, but downright misleading. As if to give succour to this argument, just yesterday we saw BHP – the same company that says it wants coal export protection – announce a $48 billion investment in expanding its iron ore operations.

As one of the world’s leading mining companies with revenue last financial year of more than US$52 billion (not including revenue in the six months to 31 December 2010 of US$34 billion), it would be wrong to assume they haven’t factored in the impact of a carbon price and that they aren’t managing that transition already.

And what hasn’t featured so far in the debate is the growing number of companies and organisations that actually do support a carbon price.

Last week we saw no less than twenty separate companies and organisations including some of our largest energy producers, generators and retailers like AGL, BP and Pacific Hydro; national transportation organisations like Linfox Transport and the Australasian Railway Association; and international businesses like GE and IKEA, all publicly support a carbon price mechanism. Combined, these major national and international companies help power our homes and businesses, keep us clothed, fed and warm and help ensure that we get what we want when we need it. 

Then there are the nation’s institutional investors, representing around $600 billion in investments under management. Companies like AMP Capital Investors, Aviva, Deutsche Bank, Goldman Sachs, Mirvac, Stockland and BT Investment Management, amongst the nearly 60 members of the Investor Group on Climate Change have all said they support the Government taking action on climate change through the introduction of “a well-designed carbon price to support the transition to a low-carbon economy”. 

By virtue of their business, these are conservative institutions that balance risk across their investments, including investments in carbon polluting industries. For them to come to an agreed position in support of a carbon price is significant. 

These companies don’t take steps to publicly support a move like the introduction of a carbon price without good reason. And the good reason is that a carbon price will help reduce the worst excesses of carbon pollution on the environment by encouraging businesses and consumers alike to ensure that we prepare now for the future as best as we are able.

Taking a sensible, economically efficient way of cutting pollution through the introduction of a market mechanism to set a carbon price will create the necessary incentives for business to cut pollution and invest in cleaner forms of energy generation. It will give the economic certainty investors need in new forms of energy generation over the life of those investments.

Failure to act now means that not only will we continue to be one of the world’s 20 most heavily polluting countries, but that we will also be at risk of being left behind as countries like India, China, South Korea, the United States and all of Europe either adopt carbon pollution mitigation measures or expand the ones they already have in place. 

That will mean that the emerging global architecture on carbon pricing will be informed without Australia’s input. Failure to act also carries the very real risk that Australia will be exposed to ‘carbon barriers’ as our trading partners factor in the real carbon cost of production for us.

In the end, Chicken Little was wrong because the sky didn’t fall in, despite his fear-mongering and hysterical pleadings to the contrary.  The good money is on the Chicken Littles in Australia being wrong on the carbon price too – for Australia to walk away from a carbon price really would mean the sky falling in for our economy, businesses and consumers.

And that can’t be good news for us now or into the future.

293 comments

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    • Erick says:

      05:57am | 21/04/11

      If anyone is indulging in fear-mongering and hysterical pleadings, it’s the pro-carbon tax lobby. They are literally telling us that if we don’t have a big new tax, the world as we know it will end.

      For the green panic merchants to accuse others of using scare campaigns is the height of hypocrisy.

    • LeftRightOut says:

      07:28am | 21/04/11

      Or, we’ll be “left behind”, or as the [alarmist] author puts it,
        “Failure to act now means that not only will we continue to be one of the world’s 20 most heavily polluting countries, but that we will also be at risk of being left behind as countries like India, China, South Korea, the United States and all of Europe either adopt carbon pollution mitigation measures or expand the ones they already have in place”.
      Imagine is Australia didn’t have any input into the “Global architecture on pricing"carbon’ ” - what a crock! - that really is a pathetic excuse for an argument.

      Like any sales person, they need to create a “compelling event” - problem is, people aren’t buying.

    • Elphaba says:

      08:07am | 21/04/11

      Well said, Erick.

      Yet another article that obfuscates, but doesn’t answer questions.  *yawn*

    • RJB says:

      10:58am | 21/04/11

      Not sursprised that percy phone has surfaced flying wing support for another mission over fantasy land. As a Labor staffer your cover is as transparent as the lies of your masters.

    • N.Kelly says:

      11:20am | 21/04/11

      Recently MarK said that the world’s temperature is going to change, Elphaba.

      By how much ?

    • Bobster says:

      11:31am | 21/04/11

      How about this, Erick, I’ll make you a deal.

      Everyone will shup up about climate change and leave you alone. The condition, however, is that if it turns out to be true and we all end up staring down the barrell, so to speak, then those who advocated doing something about it get to eat the climate-deniers and burn their bones for warmth. Deal?

      That way everyone’s happy and the she’ll-be-right-mate merchants such as yourself will actually serve a purpose for the first time in your pointless, whining lives.

    • Mayday says:

      11:35am | 21/04/11

      Took the words right out of my mouth Erick.

      The sky is falling…......aarrgghh!

    • Shifter says:

      12:01pm | 21/04/11

      And such is the folly of Australian governments past and present. They’ve misplaced all the carrots given to the breeders to turn into new plasmas, so all the new ideas revolve around sticks, which the rest of us will foot the bill for.

      Unfortunately this leads to the scaremongering we see here, as a popular tactic in Australian politics, seen in previous incarnations in the form of ‘boat people’ among other things.

      The people rebel against the Carbon Tax because we don’t want to pay more, and why should we? Why should the government have an increase in revenue? Why can’t the effort and resources that go into the scaremongering campaign be used to work out where tax could be lessened in a more favourable area?

      Because our tax system is so bloody complex I have no idea what that could be, but surely there are some thinkers out there who could work out such a solution.

    • NicoleG says:

      12:08pm | 21/04/11

      Oh look Elphaba, N.Kelly’s here and it’s only 12.07pm!!! Looks like you’ve won the troll over. She can’t beat MarK, so it’s your turn. Enjoy the fun smile

    • MarK says:

      12:26pm | 21/04/11

      Hey look it’s my personal troll that can’t read answers to her questions I post.

      Hai hai Ms Kelly!!!!

      By the way….I am better than you could ever hope to be.

      Really

      Big Kiss

      MarK xoxoxoxoxo

    • N.Kelly says:

      12:26pm | 21/04/11

      You really do need to get out more, NicoleG.

      First you thought every place in the world had the same seasons, and now you think there’s only one time zone in the world.

      Don’t they teach you kids <i>anything<.i> these days ?

      I gave MarK plenty of opportunities, but he couldn’t come up with any answer.

      Can you ?

    • MarK says:

      01:01pm | 21/04/11

      Don’t leave me Ms Kelly. You are my troll.

      Nooooooooooooooooooooooo

      I will answer you always.

      Oh by the way Ms Kelly how much will the carbon tax cool the globe and what will it cost Australia?

      I am very good aren’t I. Better than you for sure.

    • NicoleG says:

      01:02pm | 21/04/11

      You should toss out more of your ‘funny’ remarks NK. That’s all they’re good for.

    • N.Kelly says:

      01:18pm | 21/04/11

      So you’re just another troll with no answers too, NicoleG. Unsurprising given you know nothing about the world’s seasons or time zones.

    • NicoleG says:

      01:39pm | 21/04/11

      Troll? For you to insult me, I first have to value your opinion. Try again.

    • TimB says:

      01:49pm | 21/04/11

      Oh. Hai AASQ/Kelly.

      What happened to your old moniker? It was so fitting given all the stupid questions you ask. This one doesn’t suit you at all. No siree.

      Are you trying to distance yourself from past embarrasments? Seems a bit pointless seeing as you’re just heaping all new embarrassments upon your new chosen identity.

      I hope someone is bookmarking all of Ms. Kelly’s silliness. Wouldn’t want her/him/it to forget it when the inevitable shift to the next silly alias occurs.

    • N.Kelly says:

      02:19pm | 21/04/11

      Still no answer, NicoleG ?

      Keep trying.

    • N.Kelly says:

      02:23pm | 21/04/11

      Commenting under another name won’t change the fact that you couldn’t come up with an answer to my question, TimB/MarK.

    • Dallas Beaufort says:

      02:38pm | 21/04/11

      The green labor left find it difficult to make a small step to the right for mankind and financial survival

    • Erick is a legend says:

      02:45pm | 21/04/11

      Yet again, Erick is spot on and the lefty loonies are left with egg on their face.

    • TimB says:

      03:05pm | 21/04/11

      Ah but I did answer your question. So did MarK. So have tons of other people.

      You want to know what really doesn’t change facts? You ignoring reality. Simply saying that we didn’t answer your question when you ignore answers you don’t like doesn’t make your assertions true.

      I also note I havent even *seen* you attempt to answer MarK’s question. Pretty piss poor.

      Sorry for playing with your troll MarK, in another life he/she/it was one of mine. Just reliving old times.

    • MarK says:

      03:12pm | 21/04/11

      But I did answer it honey.

      My answer to it was the correct and bestest answer ever gorgeous.

      That is because I am better than you sweetheart.

      By a lot.

      Hugs and Kisses from your God.

      MarK xoxoxoxoxo

    • MarK says:

      04:01pm | 21/04/11

      “Sorry for playing with your troll MarK, in another life he/she/it was one of mine. Just reliving old times. “

      I feel so used.

      I am not Kelly’s first.

      Kelly how could troll around on me.

      So sad.

      Oh well I just looked at big toe. It is better than all of you Kelly.

      That cheered me up some.

      How much will the globe cool as a result of this carbon tax? How much will that cost Australia?

    • Adam says:

      04:02pm | 21/04/11

      @ N.Kelly - As a former member of the “Global Warming™” cult and current member of “Man Made Climate Change™” cult, can’t you answer your own question. The name in itself says it all really - CLIMATE CHANGE™. As a current member of this cult, surely if you popped down to the crypt and dug through the mountains of top secret, believers eyes only information in there you’d be capable of answering your own question . You know the one about how much the world’s temperature is going to change?

      *waits*

      *waits*

      *yawns*

      Oh diddums, do you mean your little cult has no evidence that proves the existence of “Man Made Climate Change™” so you can’t even answer your own question? No wonder you so desperately want MarK to answer your question; he must be like an infinitely wise God to you.

    • N.Kelly says:

      04:04pm | 21/04/11

      So what was this supposed answer, TimB/MarK ?

      Let’s hear it. Go ahead and tell us all.

    • N.Kelly says:

      04:38pm | 21/04/11

      But Adam, TimB/MarK just claimed that he did answer my question, and yet here you are saying he didn’t.

      I guess we’ll all find out when he finally tells us what this supposed answer was supposed to have been. Should be any moment now.

      One little question, and you lot are dropping like flies.

    • Bruce says:

      04:56pm | 21/04/11

      The only party who could be known as the “Henny Penny” or Chicken Little” party is the backward thinking greens. The ALP needs to get ridd of the ugly growth that sits on the back of the ALP,  so we can have back our once great ALP.

    • Adam says:

      05:50pm | 21/04/11

      @ N.Kelly - Nowhere did I state MarK had not yet answered your question previously. I fear you may have confused my comment about your desperation to have him answer a question on this thread with me making a statement regarding what MarK may, or may not, have answered in past threads. I also highlighted the irony that your failure to answer your own question demonstrated the lack of information underpinning your cause. Hopefully the witty and skilful delivery of this irony was not lost on you raspberry

      Either way, it is ok, I forgive you troll baby. Hmmm, actually, I take that back, you’re not baby anymore. We’ve all fed you so much you are growing into quite a large troll smile MarK should be very proud!

    • TimB says:

      05:55pm | 21/04/11

      My answer Kellster. Which I note you completely ignored when I posted it BTW.

      “TimB says:05:50pm | 15/04/11

      ‘Kelly’, we dont know how much exactly. We don’t have to know, nor do we care. We’re not in the business of predicting the future exactly. That’s the job of *your* side of the debate. You know with all your fancy, yet hilariously innacurate models and “settled” science.

      What we can tell you is this: If the worlds temperature is going to change X amount *with* the carbon tax…it will pretty much change X amount *without* the carbon tax too.

      We will make no difference. Australia is unimportant in CO2 terms. Deal with it. “

      http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/the-leader-of-oz-no-heart-no-brain-no-courage/#comment-421708

      MarK confirms yet again that he aas already answered your question in that thread too. Still want to embarrass yourself & claim you aren’t getting an answer to your petulant questions?

      Now how about you grow a sack, and answer some of the questions that have been put to you now? You haven’t even tried yet.

    • N.Kelly says:

      06:16pm | 21/04/11

      See now there’s your problem, TimB/MarK.

      As everyone can now see again, you’ve given your answer to a completely different question.

      The question I asked was, if the world’s temperature is going to change, by how much ?

      Got it now ? By how much ?

      Keep trying.

    • Matt says:

      06:39pm | 21/04/11

      N.Kelly, what time frame are you referring to when you ask by how much the temperature will change? I’ll have a stab at answering your question though, by predicting that in approximately 5 billion years the Earth will reach temperatures of around 6000 degrees Celsius when the sun grows older, expands, and swallows the Earth (assuming our planet still exists at that point).

      Does that satisfy you? Do I win a cookie?

    • Shamen says:

      06:45pm | 21/04/11

      N Kelly]
      You’ve stumbled into a deniers den.
      These are rabid fringe dwellers who blindly support Abbott in all things.
      Better to go back out the way you came in. You are wasting your time with this lot. Neither reason nor logic is their strong suit. They are one eyed monkeys.

    • TimB says:

      07:05pm | 21/04/11

      “As everyone can now see again, you’ve given your answer to a completely different question.”

      I’m pretty sure they can’t see that. Only you AASQ with your moronic psuedo-logic can see that.

      Let’s play some Jeopardy. I’ve provided an answer. You claim it’s that of a completely different question. What exactly is this mysterious alternate question? Go.

    • Adam says:

      07:44pm | 21/04/11

      @ Shamen - Deniers Den. Lol. That is a good one, though I prefer cautiously sceptical house of science, but I can see how you “believers” get the two confused. Where are you from; the cult of Man Made Climate Change™? Before you ask me how I guessed, it was your name that gave it away. Maybe it is time for you to put forward your evidence that proves this hypothesis of Man Made Climate Change™. There is $10,000 up for grabs after all. See below:

      http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/10k-for-the-first-person-to-prove-weve-caused-climate-change/

      Awwwwwwwwwwwww, no evidence to prove it hey petal? Who’s the one eyed rabid fringe dwelling monkey blindly following their political leader now Mr Shamen?

    • NicoleG says:

      08:04pm | 21/04/11

      Ok, I’m calling it. I’ve had enough of ‘N.Kelly’. So, put a sock in it Badger. You’re so freaking transparent!

    • N.Kelly says:

      08:07pm | 21/04/11

      Well done, Matt. You win a cookie just for answering the question.

    • TimB says:

      08:28pm | 21/04/11

      Sorry what was that? Ignoring me again Kelly?

      You claimed no-one answered your question. When I showed you that I did, You said I answered a completely different question. So what question did I really answe then?

      Go.

    • John C says:

      06:04am | 21/04/11

      The writer works for Hawkers, the ALP spin machine. Does anything else need to be said?

    • TChong says:

      07:18am | 21/04/11

      JohnC , the writer affiliations are clear, and would match pro LNP articles provided by the IPA etc
      Thats the whole point of Punch - POVs , Left, Right, or otherwise.

    • LeftRightOut says:

      07:30am | 21/04/11

      John C and TChong are both right, it doesn’t change the fact that this peice is complete BS. I thought Hawker was supposed to be good at spin, this just stinks of BS.

    • persephone says:

      07:39am | 21/04/11

      Can’t fault the argument, so you attack the author.

    • TimB says:

      07:45am | 21/04/11

      Actually Chongy I’m just impressed that they’ve cut out the middleman. No Labor puppets writing this, we’re getting the spin straight from the source.

      Oh happy day smile .

    • NicoleG says:

      08:40am | 21/04/11

      What argument pers? Taxing carbon is not going to change a damn thing.

    • persephone says:

      08:51am | 21/04/11

      NicoleG

      and that’s all the article says?

      So not only is it ‘can’t fault the argument, so let’s attack the author’ it’s ‘pretend there isn’t an argument.’

      OK.

    • Matt says:

      09:54am | 21/04/11

      @persephone, carbon dioxide is not a pollutant. Therefore, his argument has no credibility. As such, the only thing left to attack *is* the author.

    • MarK says:

      10:58am | 21/04/11

      Argument?

      Like this one

      “for Australia to walk away from a carbon price really would mean the sky falling in for our economy, businesses and consumers”

      It is not an argument but a statement.

      And a statement that makes no economic sense. Take a major input being power/energy. Make it more expensive. And this leads to a stronger economy?

      Can you show me the text book that covers this?

      Saying bullshit repeatedly just means you have repeated bullshit. It doesn’t make it right.

      Try harder.

      Actually just try.

    • ronda says:

      11:05am | 21/04/11

      They are trying to polish a turd ...... cant be done.

    • MarK says:

      11:06am | 21/04/11

      Matt I was so shocked by your assertion that CO2 was not a pollutant that I had to check for myself. This has been a contention of Combet and Gillard.

      So I went to the government environment site. It appears you may be correct

      http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/airquality/pollutants.html#criteria

      No CO2 listed.

      WOW.

      Is the government lying to us?

    • persephone says:

      11:12am | 21/04/11

      Matt

      It is! It is!

      I love a substantial argument.

    • Matt says:

      11:36am | 21/04/11

      I was as shocked as you are, MarK! Imagine, Gillard lying to us? How completely out of character for her!

    • persephone says:

      12:01pm | 21/04/11

      And gee, not only that, but hundreds of thousands of scientists all over the world!!

      And even Tony Abbott believes it - and he wouldn’t lie, would he?

      OMG, must be a world wide conspiracy by lefties (like Tony) to subjugate the evil nasty right wing types (like Tony).

      Or something.

    • MarK says:

      12:29pm | 21/04/11

      *snicker*

      How many tons of this “pollutant” (hahahahahahaha) is China cutting from its emissions this year.

      You know pers….CO2….LAWL

      Since China is acting and stuff. And pers says they are. And stuff.

    • Matt says:

      12:52pm | 21/04/11

      So persephone, are you actually saying that CO2 is a pollutant? Then do everyone a favour and stop breathing. You’re destroying the planet!! wink

    • Jim says:

      02:28pm | 21/04/11

      Hundreds of thousands?? Where? Who? Please provide links to back up your claim persephone (as you love to say). Because last weeks it was “MILLIONS”!

    • persephone says:

      03:06pm | 21/04/11

      Matt

      death threats! OMG!

      Your comment demonstrates that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

      I suggest you read up on the harmful effects of water on the body. It’s a real killer.

      Matt, you dear little fluffy bunny, the concept that anything in excess is not good for you is as old as ancient Greece.

      There are a whole lot of substances we rely on for life which, in excess, are pollutants or poisons.

      The ‘CO2 is necessary for life therefore cannot possibly be harmful’ is simply a pathetic and ignorant argument.

      You may as well carry around a sign saying “I know nothing about global warming and I’m not interested in finding out’.

      You’d be way more credible.

    • Matt says:

      03:57pm | 21/04/11

      But persephone, carbon dioxide is not harmful in large quantities. It’s the lack of oxygen that will kill you. But thanks for playing.

      As for water being dangerous, perhaps we should tax that as well? Oh, that’s right, it isn’t a tax, is it persephone. I still haven’t seen how you justify it not being a tax, by the way. But I’m sure you’ll get around to it when the Labor Party feeds you the answer.

      Please, for the sake, of the children, change professions! You’re not just causing “carbon pollution” when you open your mouth, you’re also poisoning the minds of the youngsters with your bile (as our friend Sarah Bath would put it).

    • MarK says:

      04:04pm | 21/04/11

      “You may as well carry around a sign saying “I know nothing about global warming and I’m not interested in finding out’.”

      From the lady that believes China is cutting it’s CO2 emission tonnage.

      Sigh…..................

    • TimB says:

      06:05pm | 21/04/11

      @ James Milton, no she isnt.

      “China plans to reduce carbon emissions per unit of GDP by 18 percent over the next five years.” =/= reduction of actual emissions.

      It means either a) The reduction in actual emissions you claim OR b) A substantial growth in GDP. Unfortunately for you and Perse, it’s not the former happening. It’s the latter.

    • MarK says:

      06:19pm | 21/04/11

      HAHAHAHAHAHA James my god.

      That is the exact link that proves I am correct. I fully acknowledge that China will be reducing her emission intensity compared to GDP.

      That is not the point.

      Can anyone else believe this?

      This is the funniest thing I have seen.

      Let me quote from your link James.

      “Despite setting the targets, China has repeatedly said that it will not accept a more stringent cap on total emissions, calling it an unfair burden on developing nations that have much lower emissions per person than rich economies.

      The study from the Chinese Academy of Engineering and other recent reports show that some Chinese experts and officials believe the country will have to make significant gains in energy and emissions to move ahead in its development path.

      The study titled “Chinese Energy in the Long- and Medium-Term (2030, 2050)” says that China should aim for a peak in greenhouse gas output at around 9 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide per year by about 2030. “We must consider achieving zero growth in total carbon emissions from about 2030, and must seriously make the necessary technological and economic preparations for achieving an absolute fall in carbon emissions after 2030,” says the study.

      At 2007 they say they produce 6.5 million tons. By 2030 it will be 9 billion tons.

      And you say this is not an increase?

      HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

      Son do you honestly think, as I put to pers, that Gaia sits there (and here I have assumed you are a firm believer that CO2 drives the climate to a huge degree LAWL) and says hmmmm CO2 per unit of GDP is down in China….time to cool it off. Or does it say WOW an extra few billion tons of CO2 from China better crank it up?

      What is it.

      Is 9 billion > 6.5 billion?

      Answer that question.

      Gawd the things that are said and screenshotted for later lols.

      Love it….coms back and play please.

      I love it

    • Devil Within says:

      07:39pm | 21/04/11

      Time to up the dose,
      The demon is getting out again.
      HAHAHAHAHAHA
      LAWL
      Scary stuff indeed.

    • MarK says:

      10:47pm | 21/04/11

      Oh hush Badger.

      Even as an alcoholic I make more sense than you on one of my bad days.

    • acotrel says:

      06:05am | 21/04/11

      A well written article but who’s going to read it?  The deniers will turn off immediately, they just don’t want to know.  The families will still have Abbott’s scaremongering ringing in their ears.  The damage has been done, the scientists ignored, the responsible politicians have been hamstrung.

    • L. says:

      07:14am | 21/04/11

      And still acotrel, noone in Labor can tell us how much this carbon tax will alter the climate.

      Can you answer that question..? Because if you can’t, I can’t see how you can support the idea.

    • persephone says:

      07:44am | 21/04/11

      L

      au contraire, you’ve been being told this since Day 1.

      It’s set out in the Kyoto protocol and was reiterated in the 2007 election campaign - by both Labor and Liberal.

      You’re just proving actorel’s point - you don’t want to know, so you’ve ignored the whole argument.

      FYI - the aim of carbon pricing is to limit the increase in global temperatures to a 2 degree rise, which is what scientists think we can cope with.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      07:52am | 21/04/11

      Yes, it is a good article.  Indeed, it’s exactly the sort of thing that the Government should be espousing at every opportunity.

      However, acotrel’s right - as evidenced by the chorus of “la la I can’t hear you” comments already from those who are so deep into denial about AGW that no evidence or argument will ever budge them from their obtuse, ignorant and ultimately destructive position.

      The debate has reached the stage where these hard-core denialists should just be ignored.  Their only agenda is to spoil and delay.  After July the Government should just push the enabling legislation through, ignoring the inevitable bleating from the ‘business as usual’ environmental vandals.

    • Denny Crane says:

      07:59am | 21/04/11

      The author says “they support the Government taking action on climate change through the introduction of “a well-designed carbon price to support the transition to a low-carbon economy”. 

      Therein is one of the problems. Labor will be unable to produce a well-designed carbon price. Every bit of legislation that Gillard has been involved has been a failure. Just look at her record - BER, IR reform, Assylum seekers. They cant even put pink bats in peoples roofs without killing people and burning down their homes.

      They are a joke and you can be sure that any legislation will be flawed to the point that it will seriously damage the economy and considerably lower our standard of living.

      This is only one argumnet against the Carbon tax, I havent even touched on the rest of the world who might not come into line with Australia for 10 years. We would never recover but still clowns like acotrel and Hawker Brittons Ashley Wells.

    • jf says:

      08:00am | 21/04/11

      Just what is a denier acotrel?

      I believe that global warming exists in 2011, as it has for millenium.

      I don’t believe that mankind is responsible for global warming any more than mankind was responsible for global warming when it was happening before mankind existed.

      I beieve that mankind should do something about the general state of the planet.

      I don’t believe that a carbon tax will solve anything.

      So far as I can tell, you are applying the term “denier” term broadly to include people who may or may not believe in global warming, and may even believe that mankind is responsible, but don’t believe that a carbon tax will solve the problem.

      Am I a denier acotrel? And, if so, what is it that I am denying. After all, the term ‘denier’ has parallels with those who deny that the holocaust happended. What manner of evil is it that the deniers are denying?

    • L. says:

      08:24am | 21/04/11

      persephone..I’ll ask the question again slowly, as you clearly didn’t undersatnd the first time around.

      How much will the CARBON TAX alter the climate..??

      I don’t give a rats about any agreed to “target”... I want to know what effect the tax will have.

      I’m listening…

    • Anne_N says:

      08:48am | 21/04/11

      Why scaremonger and ‘jargonize’ at all?  We know we’re going to run out of oil, we know we’re going to run out of coal, they’re finite resources.  And we need to find another way to generate affordable power.  Just explain to us clearly how you plan to do this…..instead of frightening all of us with terms like ‘failure to act will result in’ blah blah.

    • persephone says:

      08:55am | 21/04/11

      L

      it is ALL about intent. And good will. And acting globally.

      Global action will only happen if (gasp) the globe acts - which means each country needs to do their bit.

      Any country which doesn’t, gives others an excuse not to either.

    • Adam says:

      09:31am | 21/04/11

      @ Pers - So you admit the CARBON TAX in Australia will be very expensive, achieve no measureable change in global climate and only serve to meet some kind of ideological aim?

    • TimB says:

      09:42am | 21/04/11

      “L

      it is ALL about intent. And good will. And acting globally.

      Global action will only happen if (gasp) the globe acts - which means each country needs to do their bit.

      Any country which doesn’t, gives others an excuse not to either. “

      Wrong Perse. On every possible level.

      Intent doesn’t mean squat. Results count. “I meant well” does not cut it.

      Australia not acting does NOT give an excuse to others not to act. We contribute 1.5% of emissions. That’s all. Nations like China America, and India CANNOT use our stance as justification for not acting themselves. We have every right to not act because*we* aren’t the main source of the alledged problem. They are.

      If the globe sans Australia acted tomorrow, it would be the exact same effect as if the globe acted WITH Australia.

      Now imagine the globe acting without the USA. Or the Globe acting without China. Or India. Etc. It’s just a little bit of a different story there. Anyone of any intelligence can see that.

      Stop giving us morals and platidues. Give us facts. Show us how Australia crippling itself for no reason is in any way a good idea.

    • Matt says:

      10:03am | 21/04/11

      “persephone says:

      08:55am | 21/04/11

      L

      it is ALL about intent. And good will. And acting globally.”

      Yeah, that worked really well at Copenhagen. Good to know perse that the whole thing is nothing more than a “warm fuzzy feeling” exercise. Unless you can quantify the benefits…? Otherwise, its nothing more than impressive-sounding buzz words.

    • L. says:

      10:07am | 21/04/11

      “it is ALL about intent. And good will. And acting globally.”

      Ah.. so it’s “window dressing” then..??

      It’s funny how you point to the “science”, but expect us to have “faith” this tax will have any effect…

      Until someone can put a figure on the effect this will have, even down to the 0.0001% of a degree, then it’s an utter scam.

    • Randal says:

      10:33am | 21/04/11

      Perse, simple really, answer these questions:

      1. How much will the government’s proposed carbon dioxide tax cost?
      2. How much will the carbon dioxide tax reduce global temperatures by?

      Until you do everything else is a mute point.

    • Randal says:

      10:48am | 21/04/11

      @Perse says:

      “it is ALL about intent. And good will. And acting globally.”

      And with those words the whole argument comes crashing down, and the truth exposed, this proposed tax will;

      Do nothing to:

      1. To alter any potential effect of climate change.
      2. It will not have any direct upon global temperature
      3. Will have no direct impact upon global emissions due to the ever increasing emissions from India and China

      So we are being asked to implement a tax;

      That will:

      1. Hurt the global competitiveness of Australian businesses
      2. Drive many emissions intensive industries off shore
      3. Cost thousands of jobs
      4. Increase the cost of everything by the equivalency of a 25% increase in the GST

      And we are doing this for zero environmental gain, just so the elites such as Perse can talk about our good intentions, and global good will.

      With facts such as these perse, is there little wonder that this government is in so much trouble!

    • TheRealDave says:

      10:56am | 21/04/11

      Ahh FFS!

      IT BLOODY MOOT! NOT BLOODY MUTE!

      Sorry to pick on you Randall…I see that particular one all over the bloody net…and it shits me! Shits me more than people who can’t use your, you’re and there, their and they’re.

      Carry on.

    • persephone says:

      12:09pm | 21/04/11

      The world (or at least substantial amounts of it!) has acted in unison on issues before - it has waged wars, tackled CFCs, worked on health issues, etc etc.

      So it’s not beyond the wit of man to suggest that the global community is also capable of co ordinated action on climate change.

      Of course it’s difficult, but we don’t need to make it more difficult than it is.

      “All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing” - that is, for all of us to sit on our hands and leave it to someone else to get the job done, because after all, we’re just one country and what difference can we make?

      Yet our whole system is predicated on the idea that individuals - whether they’re individual people or countries - can make a difference.

      In our society, we also recognise that people working together for a common cause can achieve more than individuals working alone.

      Again, the same applies to countries.

      Australia isn’t acting alone. It isn’t acting first. It’s not setting forward a series of beliefs unshared by any other country - in fact, it’s acting in accordance with an agreed position arrived at through world consensus.

      So, no, no one country working by itself can achieve the necessary aims.

      But no one’s suggesting that that’s what’s happening.

    • Matt says:

      01:22pm | 21/04/11

      You would have thought Copenhagen would have been the time for the world to act in unison. As that was quite a spectacular non-event, it makes your assertions a lot less credible, persephone.

      By the way, wars may not be the best example of the world acting in unison. Just saying… Unless you mean against aliens or something.

    • L. says:

      01:31pm | 21/04/11

      @Pers

      “So, no, no one country working by itself can achieve the necessary aims.”

      So you’re not going to tell us how much the tax will alter the climate..?? You know, the very reason the Green / Lab gov wants the tax to exist…

    • JT says:

      01:38pm | 21/04/11

      ‘‘Just saying… Unless you mean against aliens or something.’‘’

      Well considering Pers believes The Day After Tomorrow is a documentary, I wouldn’t put it past her to believe ID4 actually happened.

    • Hamish says:

      01:42pm | 21/04/11

      Matt, Perse likes to pretend other counties are actually doing something on this issue. I would say that she’s being disingenuous again, but I don’t want to collapse her carefully constructed fantasy world. I definitely wouldn’t want to remind her that her perceived climate heroes, China, in the words of our illustrious foreign minister, ratfucked us at Copenhagen. ‘Cos, you know, China are cutting their emissions, no for real, they are. I’m super serial.

    • Randal says:

      01:48pm | 21/04/11

      No offense taken Real Dave, and your grammar lesson has been duly noted… Just one thing though, it’s BLOODY Randal with one L not 2!!

      Sorry to carry on, but I really hate it when people pedantically correct other people’s posts without the courtesy of spelling the person whom their correcting name correctly.

      Right now that’s off my chest lets both carry on shall we.

    • Randal says:

      01:52pm | 21/04/11

      @perse, you have still failed to answer the simple questions:

      1. How much will the government’s proposed carbon dioxide tax cost?
      2. How much will the carbon dioxide tax reduce global temperatures by?

      Answers that says we should just do something without assessing what it will cost and what impact it will have are not answers.

      Any action taken to mitigate the effects of climate change must be assessed on a basis of cost and result, to just do something is pointless and from your post seems to be exactly what you are saying.

    • Adam says:

      02:51pm | 21/04/11

      @ Pers - If your suggestion that it was critical for Australia to work together with the rest of the world was true, then surely the Carbon Tax would reflect this. It does not. Nowhere is there any suggestion the Carbon Tax would be repealed if other major carbon emitting economies didn’t follow suit and reduce their emissions (i.e. China). And let’s not forget, this whole Carbon Tax house of cards is built on an unproven, untested theory that man is somehow responsible for climate change. Still waiting for you to provide a shred of evidence of that by the way? You haven’t forgotten about the $10,000 if you can prove it, have you? I’ll send you the link as a reminder:

      http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/10k-for-the-first-person-to-prove-weve-caused-climate-change/

    • MarK says:

      03:21pm | 21/04/11

      JT ....WTF

      “I wouldn’t put it past her to believe ID4 actually happened. “

      ID4 was fiction….................awwww man.

      You mean to tell me Harry Connick Jr is still alive and singing…...ffs….

    • persephone says:

      03:23pm | 21/04/11

      Randal

      All the number crunching and cost benefit analysis stuff has been done. Strangely enough, not by me.

      Given that it wasn’t done by me, I’m not an expert on it. I suggest you have a look at Garnaut if what you’re after is expert analysis.

      1. Work in progress. We don’t have a carbon price yet.

      2. I really think I’ve answered this one multiple times, even in this thread. The aim of global action is to stabilise CO2 emissions and thus the temperature.

      Seriously, neither of these are reasons not to act. 1 is under discussion as we speak, but we have a good idea of what the likely outcomes are going to be because we know roughly what the price of carbon needs to be and how that works out.

      I don’t have time to google that at present, but it will all be on the Treasury or climate change websites. You can google as well as I can.

      2 isn’t a problem either, because we do have global agreement that action needs to happen, and now it’s just a case of getting everyone to sign up. Not easy, but achievable.

      Don’t see why you see these as insurmountable issues. We’ve been involved in global action before, doing our small bit to make the whole thing work.

      And really, what if I don’t have killer arguments? Do you think Gillard et al are reading this site and going “Oh, Randal’s got Perse there! Let’s rip the whole thing up”?

      I explain what I know, research what I can and try and have the courtesy to respond to people who ask me questions.

      That’s all I do.

      You could catch me out every day of the week and it wouldn’t have any effect on anything much at all.

      Hamish

      apparently you like to pretend that other countries don’t exist.

      Most countries in the world are either already pricing carbon or have plans to do so.

      In fact, as I’ve said before, I’m not aware of a country that says that nothing’s happening and they’re not going to do anything about it.

      Feel free to enlighten me.

      TimB

      why should I? I have on frequent occasions. I don’t like repeating myself.

      There are bucketloads of facts out there. Scientific journals full of them. Thousands of books.

      Go and read some of them.

      Learning is about questioning and seeking answers. It’s not about asking other people to run around and find them for you.


      You guys are boring. You’re not asking questions out of genuine curiousity, but to play silly gotcha games. The issue is far too important for that.

      I’m answering you out of courtesy, but I have answered the same questions for you frequently on previous threads. It’s possible you didn’t read them, or that if you read them, you failed to understand them.

      I’m going for the latter.

    • Hamish says:

      03:34pm | 21/04/11

      Perse, what countries? Europe has had a regime since 2005. No one else has one. Europe’s doesn’t even work. America (or at least a handful of states) is winding their’s back. China is too busy leveraging useful idiots like yourself to actually do anything. India doesn’t even believe in it. Africa won’t make a difference anyway, all they want is the cash. What’s left? South America? They’re an irrelevancy. So, which countries?

    • Randal says:

      04:08pm | 21/04/11

      @Perse Says:

      “The aim of global action is to stabilise CO2 emissions and thus the temperature.”

      Again I ask if as you say “we know roughly what the price of carbon needs to be” to achieve this, then please tell us all to estimated degree, how much will Australia implementing a ‘carbon dioxide tax’ reduce global temperature’s by??

      And knowing what the rough “price of carbon needs to be”, what is the cost to the Australian people and consumers for this reduction??

      Come on Perse it should not be that hard, yet I cannot find a single person who is either willing to, or can answer both questions, and I am astounded that anyone could support a carbon tax as a solution without having any idea as to how much it costs or what it will actually achieve.

    • CD says:

      04:22pm | 21/04/11

      @Persephone….so scientists ‘think’ 2 deg is acceptable huh? Don’t have to know just hope and then slug us billions.

      BTW I am beyond fed up with those who do not want this carbon tax or those who do not believe in anthroprogenic CC being labelled deniers to suit anyone who opposes the warmists.

      What clever little dick thought of that? And look at the bandwagon jumpers.

      From now on those who like the carbon slug and ACC I intend to classify as liars.

    • Adam says:

      04:31pm | 21/04/11

      @ Pers - You also refered me to Garnaut when I asked how much the government’s proposed carbon dioxide tax would cost. There was no definitive answer in any of Garnauts stuff. Care to try again?

      P.S. I am happy for you to point me to a para or report of Garnauts if you genuinely believe their is an answer in one of them, however, after an exhaustive review of them all I found nothing.

    • persephone says:

      04:36pm | 21/04/11

      Hamish

      and since when has Europe been counted as one country?

      But here goes:

      Countries either with a carbon price or plans to implement one:

      South Africa, India, South Korea, New Zealand, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Slovenia, Sweden, Switzerland, and the UK, Costa Rica, some provinces of Canada, some states of the USA,

      Now, Hamish, your list - the countries that aren’t acting because they don’t believe it’s happening.

    • persephone says:

      04:52pm | 21/04/11

      Randal

      Firstly, I have answered those questions.

      I agree the answers are necessarily vague at present. The parliamentary committee’s still thrashing out what price they’re going to set on carbon emissions, but it’s likely to be in the $20 - $30 a tonne range.

      Treasury estimates that a carbon price sufficient to reduce emissions by 5% will reduce annual GNP and GDP growth by 0.1 percentage points a year.

      Have a look at:

      http://www.treasury.gov.au/lowpollutionfuture/report/html/06_Chapter6.asp

      and related documents.

      It’s all quite complex and I don’t have time to simplify it for you at present!

      However, what must be factored in is that Australia is committed to reducing its carbon emissions by 5%. If it doesn’t do this, it must buy carbon credits.

      Thus the Abbott scenario (which I’m only using here as an example) which costs $11 billion over 10 years then incurs a further cost to the economy because it doesn’t reduce emissions effectively, and necessitates the purchase of carbon credits to compensate for this.

      Which points out how moot this argument is. One way or another, under Labor or Liberal, we’re going to have a carbon pricing method.

      All the ranting on this site - from either side - isn’t going to change that.

      Given it’s inevitable, the discussion should be what the best model is.

    • Hamish says:

      05:04pm | 21/04/11

      Nice list Perse. India has a $1 per ton coal tax. This will amount to a staggering $500 million per year (so roughly 50 cents per Indian). America has no plans for a national system. The party in Canada who proposed a tax at the last election got beaten. There are no national plans. South Korea I’ll pay because, like Australia, they say they might do something in 2012. So, in reality your list is: Europe (which I’d already accepted), New Zealand, South Africa and Costa Rica. It’s like a who’s who of major polluters isn’t it Perse?

    • persephone says:

      07:26am | 23/04/11

      Hamish

      your list, please.

    • Bris Jack says:

      06:05am | 21/04/11

      Hawker Britton, enough said!

    • Richard says:

      09:10am | 21/04/11

      No its not, you’ve got to engage in the actual argument.

      But with that said, the actual argument really is pathetic.

      You know there were people in the USA in the lead up to the sub-prime meltdown and the credit crunch and the GFC who were warning of the economic consequences of the credit boom and the Fed’s cheap money policies and the Federal government’s huge deficit, etc.

      They outlined exactly what was going to happen economically, and they were laughed at. They were mocked. They were called “Dr. Doom” and “Chicken Little”. TV show hosts called them “pessimistic” and said “you certainly wouldn’t be fun at a party”.

      The point is, when there is a clear and present danger, and some people have enough courage to speak up against it, ignorant political spinners with vested interests like the author of this piece are always going to try to mock them and play down their valid points and objections.

      But if the people of the USA has listened to the contrarian economists who warned of the economic meltdown before it happened, and had followed their advice, they would have been able to avoid those disastrous consequences that were warned about and are know happening to innocent every day Americans who are losing their jobs and their purchasing power and their living standards.

      Likewise, our government needs to listen to the voice of the people who don’t want a carbon tax, who are already doing it tough over electricity price hikes, who have warned that this will be the last straw; and scrap this whole stupid scheme, which will have even more unintended negative consequences than even all the ones that so-called “Chicken Little’s” have been discussing so far. You can be sure about that, because that’s what always happens when government’s meddling in economies in such major, drastic fashion.

    • Steve says:

      06:08am | 21/04/11

      “In the end, Chicken Little was wrong because the sky didn’t fall in, despite his fear-mongering and hysterical pleadings to the contrary”

      The problem is that this argument can be applied to both sides of the debate.  I’m still confused, and everybody seems to only preach to the converted.  I’ve read compelling arguments both for and against.  How am I supposed to come to an informed decision?  I really am trying to understand.

    • PJ3 says:

      07:47am | 21/04/11

      Hit the nail on the head Steve - so confusing -  plus I wish the government would show us a flow chart that demonstrates how the tax ends up developing alternative “green” energy.

    • Chris L says:

      08:33am | 21/04/11

      I’m with you Steve. There are some convincing arguments from both sides, not to mention agendas. Obviously much of big business wants to protect their profits and their political supporters want to keep their donations, and many think the other side just want to raise taxes so following the money doesn’t help expose who is lying here.

      I just think it’s probably better to err on the side of caution. After all, if we encourage businesses to find ways to pollute less I think that would be a good thing, even if they’re not changing the environment.

    • Nick Buick says:

      01:01pm | 21/04/11

      When all else fails, follow the money Steve. Perhaps the world is about to end, perhaps it isn’t… but who ever comes to me first with their hand out telling me they NEED my money - is the bullshit artist.

    • Peter says:

      06:14am | 21/04/11

      Perhaps the “Chicken Little” term could be applied to the AGW alarmists and proponents of the Carbon Dioxide Tax.
      I do not dispute climate change. Climate is forever changing, since the birth of our planet. What I dispute is the fact that we humans, with our overblown egos, can somehow control nature.
      When the shonky science behind this new religion is exposed, the converts to AGW will be the ones with egg on their face.
      I am proud to an informed “neocon” and “climate denier”.
      Sarah Bath, I await your daily rant.

    • acotrel says:

      07:20am | 21/04/11

      @ Peter The weather changes more quickly than climate.  It’s the rate of change in our climate which is the major concern.  We can probably look forward to Steven Spielberg type weather events in the near future if we don’t put the brakes on.  In any case we are approaching ‘peak oil’, and we need to find alternatives.  The time to act is now! ‘A stitch in time saves nine.’

    • TimB says:

      07:43am | 21/04/11

      Nah, The Punch Powers That Be are on to her now. She won’t show her face again. At least not in that guise.

      Acotrel, we have an alternative- Nuclear power. In fact it’s the only alternative we have right now. So either accept the need for nuclear, or suck it up and live with coal.

      BTW, ‘Steven Spielberg type weather’? Let me guess you’re another person who thinks The Day After Tomorrow was based on sound science. lol.

    • persephone says:

      07:53am | 21/04/11

      Peter

      Climate doesn’t change randomly. It changes because something makes it change.

      For all major past events, going back millenia, scientists have convincing explanations for climate change events.

      In the present case, none of the usual suspects are in operation. In fact, quite the reverse - if we were to go by past climate change events, we should be in a cooling phase now, because the past drivers of climate warming (volcanoes, sun activity, etc) aren’t highly active.

      This left scientists to look at what else might be driving it. AGW is the theory which has stood the test of scrutiny, across a wide range of scientific disciplines.

      It is one of the most tested scientific ideas we have.

      Besides that, we know we can impact adversely on the environment, and do so in dramatic ways - think ‘hole in the ozone layer’, mass animal and plant extinctions, permanently altered water courses, and so forth.

      I’m sorry, but someone who equates AGW with a religion is not informed, and certainly not objective. And how can you be a climate denier? Don’t you think we have a climate?

    • jf says:

      08:02am | 21/04/11

      “We can probably look forward to Steven Spielberg type weather events in the near future if we don’t put the brakes on.”

      Add this to the ever-expanding list of bogus predictions made by the AGW, climate catastrophe, the sky is falling in, global warming alarmists.

      Has even one of their wild predictions come to pass?

    • Ryan says:

      08:23am | 21/04/11

      @persephone: and the lead atmospheric scientist and a respected IPCC scientist working in the field are saying that humans are not causing it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqu993xs9Gk

      There is not one shred of evidence to this day that has ever been produced that shows a human marker in climate change, not one.
      Do post the direct evidence if you have it, I fear as always you will disappear after having dispensed your glorious propaganda.

    • Denny Crane says:

      08:25am | 21/04/11

      Its strange that every prediction of warmers has failed to materialize. Flannery said that it would never rain in queensland again - well not enough to fill the dams.

      When all the hypocrites start to show us by their actions that this is serious then it might become more relevant. But while Flannery works for Virgin Galactic or Panasonic (people who make products powered by coal fired power stations), Al Gore has two huge houses that uses 5 times the power of an ordinary house, Combet and Rudd buy houses by the sea, then they cannot expect us to believe.

      Its a matter of do as I say not dod as I do.

    • LeftRightOut says:

      08:32am | 21/04/11

      pers and other AGW alarmists; you criticise “denialists” (as you put it) as idiots who do not understand (or refuse to accept) the science.
      I would bet both balls and one arm that you do not understand the science, either. You clearly refuse to accept any other possible reality, so you too could be accused of being in denial.

      Your position is hypocritical - this is a fact, and there can be no denial of it.

      This issue is not about science, it’s about politics. It is Left vs Right - you know it, we all know it.
      The old adage of something being too good to be true - is quite obvious here. A giant tax, supported (under the guise of AGW alarmism) by left leaning types who idealogically beleive in big government, big taxes. Opposed by those who believe in small government, low taxes.
      Your fig-leaf of legitimacy is scientists (see my link to the corruption of peer review further up this page) who live or die on government grants. If the government can raise taxes based on their (flawed) theories, then more grant money for them.
      Look at hopw much cash Flannery is making out of all this, Gore too among many, many others. I have no problem with them banking coin, it’s the lies and exaggerations I have a problem with.

    • MarK says:

      08:53am | 21/04/11

      “In the present case, none of the usual suspects are in operation. In fact, quite the reverse - if we were to go by past climate change events, we should be in a cooling phase now, because the past drivers of climate warming (volcanoes, sun activity, etc) aren’t highly active.”

      No you are wrong. What time scale are you saying this warming has occurred over?

      This is a convenient lie you have made up to attempt to justify your religion….yeh I used the r word. You are a zealot because of your ideology.

      “This left scientists to look at what else might be driving it. AGW is the theory which has stood the test of scrutiny, across a wide range of scientific disciplines. “

      This is a complete fallacy. A lie. A deceit. And wrong. It cannot stand up to scrutiny at all because the models they use do not work with known data and any attempt to show this had been shut down in the past.

      http://rossmckitrick.weebly.com/uploads/4/8/0/8/4808045/gatekeeping_chapter.pdf

      http://science.house.gov/sites/republicans.science.house.gov/files/documents/hearings/ChristyJR_written_110331_all.pdf

      Make your own mind up

      http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/WegmanReport.pdf

      Read the report. You will find that there was a clique of 43 “scientists” acting as gatekeepers.

      So much for your “most tested” claim.

      Seriously give it up. You provide nothing to the discussion. Did you listen to Jill Duggan on the radio with the link I provided? Did you bother to read the transcript?. She was the “expert” you claimed showed Europe is acting. She can’t tell you a thing about what they are doing. She has no clue. The truth is the scheme is a sham. They regularly shut it down because of fraud. It is a joke.

      Just a few years ago we were warned of the 50 million plus climate refugees that were going to be on the move. Yesterday I am sure it you that warned us of them too.

      http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/04/15/the-un-disappears-50-million-climate-refugees-then-botches-the-disappearing-attempt/

      I mean really. Scare tactics and lies.If they get the number of refugees caused by AGW wrong by a factor of 50 million over a few years why the hell should we believe anything the increasingly discredited models tell us will happen a year, 5 years, a decade let alone 10’s of decades into the future.

      Name me one prediction of the AGW crew that has come true. Name me one thing Flaanneryt has predicted that has come true.

      Tell me why Flannery should use a tax payer position to fly the Panasonic flag. Explain to me the logic that deems our climate commissioner can spruik for an electronic company while preaching coal fired annihilation.

      Tell me how much this climate tax will cost. Tell me to what level the tax will hold “global warming” too.

      You are intellectual devoid of reason. You are debinked. You have a catchphrase. You believe in that which cannot be proven.

      You are a religious disciple with no clue.

      Show me the “science”. Show me the “proof”.

      You have nothing. Go win the 10 grand from yesterday. Good luck.

    • Brian B says:

      08:54am | 21/04/11

      Another School Mar’m lecture from Persephone.

      Climate is weather averaged over a period of time - and yes climate does change all the time. But while scientists have made progress in tracking past major climate periods, they do not yet have solid evidence for the reasons for climate change. The whole thing is a work in progress.

      It is ludicrous to suggest the reasons for climate change are one of the most tested scientific ideas we have.

      Let the scientists continue their work without all the political scaremongering we see from the likes of Clive Hamilton, Tim Flannery and Al Gore.

    • persephone says:

      09:10am | 21/04/11

      Ryan

      climate scientists make it clear we can’t predict the occurence or intensity of a particular weather event, or ascribe its occurence or intensity to climate change.

      They predict trends, not individual events, and the trends have been for more severe and frequent extreme weather events.

      So their predictions have been verified.

      As they haven’t predicted individual events, their record’s good there too.


      Denny

      Firstly, I’ve made it clear before that I’m no fan of Flannery’s. But he didn’t make that prediction.

      In the article it comes from, he makes it clear that there will be rain in the future and even allows for there being a considerable amount in individual years.

      The repitiion of this claim by posters such as yourselves simply demonstrates that you accept what you are told without questioning it - exactly what you accuse others of doing.

      However, it’s even more reprehensible when you do it, because the information you should be checking is relatively easy to, as it doesn’t involve any understanding of science or economics or anything much beyond a quick google.

      LeftRightOut

      When someone points me to a site or an article, I try and read it. I come back here and set out my analysis.

      I work with scientists, and know I have a good grasp of the scientific method.

      For anyone to pretend that they have a full overview of the case for climate change would be obviously absurd. There are hundreds of peer reviewed articles being published on a yearly basis in support of AGW, and it’s impossible for anyone to be across them all.

      On the other hand, it’s relatively easy to be across the ‘no’ case.

      If you want to argue it politically, fine. But don’t go down the ‘it’s a leftist conspiracy’ path without explaining why Abbott thinks it’s necessary to act on climate change and why so many leaders of the Right overseas think so too.

      Unless, of course, they’re all liars and only the Left are being truthful about their intentions.

    • Adam says:

      09:20am | 21/04/11

      @ Pers - So has anyone proven this humans cause climate change “scientific idea” yet? Any non alarmist reason we can’t wait a few decades for more research to be done? Acting now on unproven ideas seems a bit reckless and very expensive.

    • persephone says:

      09:31am | 21/04/11

      BrianB

      I am letting the scientists get on with their job. I never quote any of the people you mention, for the very reasons you state.

      I suggest you have a look at some of the literature (the reputable bits). My claims that climate change has a degree of scientific consensus behind it unmatched by any other theory comes from there - the scientists who you want to be allowed to do their job.

      Part of their job, of course, is providing information so that people like me can then put forward the arguments.

    • persephone says:

      09:37am | 21/04/11

      Adam

      governments take action every day on far less evidence than is before them now, and in cases where the risks are far lower.

      Governments have a responsibility to look at the expert advice and to act on it.

      In a situation like this, where both the vast majority of scientists and economists are united in saying that action must be taken and must be taken as soon as possible - and that acting as soon as possible is the economically imperative - then any responsible government would act.

      There are governments around the world who aren’t getting aboard the IPCC process, or signing up to targets, or who are quibbling about how far they should take it. But there’s very very few (none that i know of) that aren’t acting, regardless of their political leanings.

      Which is a pretty big hint that the evidence is fairly compelling.

    • The Original Oz says:

      10:20am | 21/04/11

      Persephone - You again fall back on the line “For all major past events, going back millenia, scientists have convincing explanations for climate change events. In the present case, none of the usual suspects are in operation”

      Read the following peer reviewed journal article

      http://www.findthatfile.com/search-3074794-hPDF/download-documents-abduss-nkj-2009-pdf.htm

      and you will see that the suns 11 year and bicentennial cycles are playing a major role in current climate variations.You will also find that ice core studies have shown that Co2 increases in the atmosphere regularly occur between 200 and 800 years AFTER a global warming cycle has occurred. If you had noted past posts you will recognise that the current period is just over 200 years since the end of the mini ice age. The conclusion is that the current Co2 increases are not anthropegenic but are in fact part of a natural cycle that has been identified and confirmed by scientific studies.

      Please feel free to come back with your peer reviewed objections to this article. Please note, the article does have some BIG words and scientific terms so please also feel free to get some assistance in deciphering it if you so need.

    • Matt says:

      10:29am | 21/04/11

      @persephone “governments take action every day on far less evidence than is before them now, and in cases where the risks are far lower.”

      Factual evidence and real-world examples please, or it didn’t happen.

    • MarK says:

      11:14am | 21/04/11

      How is China looking pers.

      I am pretty inconvenient aren’t I.

      Cowards ignore what they can’t answer. Liars hide behind silence. Zealots repeat the lines they learn by wrote.

    • Adam says:

      11:54am | 21/04/11

      @ Pers - “governments take action every day on far less evidence than is before them now, and in cases where the risks are far lower.”

      You keep talking about all this evidence, but have so far failed to produce any that proves human are responsible for climate change. Care to share it with the rest of us sceptics that don’t like to take such things on faith? P.S. I can think of a few examples of the Govt acting without all the information in place (Health reforms, School Halls, Insulation Scheme and soon we will add Carbon Tax to that list)

      “Governments have a responsibility to look at the expert advice and to act on it.”

      We all know an expert is just a man from out of town a briefcase and a top hat. I prefer to look at the evidence myself and make my own judgements. I also believe the Govt has a responsibility to listen to its citizens and act on it. Not surround themselves with “experts” who all share their opinion, then implement policies based on dangerous groupthink.

      “In a situation like this, where both the vast majority of scientists and economists are united in saying that action must be taken and must be taken as soon as possible - and that acting as soon as possible is the economically imperative - then any responsible government would act.”

      The scientists are far from being united. Over 30,000 disagree.
      http://www.petitionproject.org/
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHW7KR33IQ
      You talk about acting quickly being imperative. Care to elaborate why, being careful not to rely on unproven science as you do so? I personally have seen no empirical evidence in the data from either side of the debate that suggests we can’t do more research for another few decades with no downside.

      “There are governments around the world who aren’t getting aboard the IPCC process, or signing up to targets, or who are quibbling about how far they should take it. But there’s very very few (none that i know of) that aren’t acting, regardless of their political leanings.”

      Ah, the IPCC. Care to see what one of their scientist’s thinks of the proposed Carbon Tax in Australia? Yep, he says it is absolute rubbish!
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqu993xs9Gk
      I also note you point out multiple countries are doing multiple different things, presumably all in their own best interest. Why should Australia also not act in the best interest of its citizens and dump this Carbon Tax? As you have pointed out, the Carbon Tax will produce no measureable change to the global climate, it will be very expensive and serve only to give us a warm fuzzy feeling.

      “Which is a pretty big hint that the evidence is fairly compelling.”

      Oh, compelling evidence of human made climate change. I can’t wait for you to provide some! Did you know you can win $10,000 if you can do just that? See below.
      http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/10k-for-the-first-person-to-prove-weve-caused-climate-change/

    • Jim says:

      02:34pm | 21/04/11

      @persephone…you know nothing! All you do is regurgitate the party propoganda.

      Any way you look at it, by whatever statistical method you choose, we are currently in the bottom 2% with respect to atmospheric CO2 levels, and mean global temperatures, EVER. That is…EVER. Of course the planets going to bounce back to it’s mean values, it’s been doing that for 4 billion years.

      Face it, AGW is a lie perpetuated by big business who will get very rich out of it, and socialists who can see an opportunity to bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator by redistributing wealth.

    • jf says:

      09:05am | 24/04/11

      persephone says: 09:10am | 21/04/11

      “climate scientists make it clear we can’t predict the occurence or intensity of a particular weather event, or ascribe its occurence or intensity to climate change.”

      I won’t again trot out the dozens of predictions )specific and non-specific) made by alarmists as it has been done over and over.

      I’ll only note that your reply is essentially “am not, you are”.

      Your statement above is a lie. Alarmists have been making predictions for decades and none have come true: zero, zilch, nada.

      However, Perse, I stand to be corrected: please correct me if I am wrong.

      “They predict trends, not individual events, and the trends have been for more severe and frequent extreme weather events.”

      Which hasn’t happened. Just because we have access to more information and you now know more information, more immediately about events doesn’t mean that they are more frequent or more extreme. Just because we didn’t hear about something pre-internet, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

    • Ryan says:

      10:56pm | 25/04/11

      @pers: “So their predictions have been verified.” you mean like the one that we were never going to have proper rainfall again and that we had to build desal plants right away.
      Excuse me if I find this comment as laughable as the rest of your post that did nothing to address my argument. Still not one shred of evidence, not one human marker in climate change and not one argument against that FACT.

    • TimB says:

      06:31am | 21/04/11

      Damn those nasty buisinesses. How dare they use “the sky is falling” trick? Doesn’t that belong to the AGW crowd? You know, like how if I don’t turn my LCD off at the wall by tomorrow, we’re all going to drown horribly by Saturday?

      No wonder you’re pissed, they stole your bit. No-one may outscare the AGW believers!!

    • TChong says:

      07:43am | 21/04/11

      TimTimB- even 1 vote Tony is a born again believer ( in global warming). He told the comalco hat convention at parliament house, just the other day. ( that was when he was booed by the assembled intelligensia of the rally)
      Hope you aint contradicting 1 vote- or to the “time out” corner for you.

    • TChong says:

      06:48am | 21/04/11

      Never has there been a funnier moment, then the spoken word version of the ‘Time Warp”
      “Bring those knees in tight”- spose its the only way to stop pissing yurself laughing.
      As for her refereence to “pelvic thrust”- no further comment is warranted, the mental pic is disturbing enough.
      A bit of publicity for a no - name.
      How long was her lunch ?

    • michael j says:

      01:16pm | 21/04/11

      I couldn’t bring myself to play that clip,i think i saw it during question time,at first i was stunned,,then came embarrassment for myself ,then for the people who elected her,,then came rage that she would butcher an all time classic by trying to make a moot political point,,, defiantly an all time low for Australian politic’s,,,,,

    • Climate realist number9 says:

      06:58am | 21/04/11

      Your pervasive use of the ‘appeal to authority’ fallacy in this article is laughable. Business must adapt if it must but none are stupid and none support stupidity.  Investment banks plunder the biggest profits in the world yet contribute nothing to utility. AGW is a scam sold on ‘post normal science’ - for that read nutty religion.

    • Hamish says:

      08:59am | 21/04/11

      Climate realist, all AGWers ever do is appeal to authority. It’s why naturally sceptical people don’t believe it. This debate is essentially between the gullible and the rational.

    • persephone says:

      09:21am | 21/04/11

      Yes, Hamish, because it’s so much better to just go with your gut.

      I mean, what would experts know?

      Let’s make all our decisions based on tea leaf readings, seances and by examining the entrails of animals.

      After all, those methods were good enough for our ancestors.

      They didn’t bother with all of this ‘appeal to authority’ nonsense.

      (BTW, I have noticed a fair bit of appealing to authority by those on the other side of the argument!)

    • CJ Morgan says:

      09:24am | 21/04/11

      And of course, all the bleating deniers have conducted their own independent research, on which they base their analysis and conclusions.

    • Hamish says:

      09:48am | 21/04/11

      Perse, I don’t just rely on my gut. I’m not an avowed ‘denier’ necessarily, but I am very sceptical about AGW. Not so much the science itself, I think it’s a reasonable hypothesis which is yet to be proven. I believe that is the most rational position to take. However, climate change has clearly now become a political industry and I am very wary of self-perpetuating political industries.  I’m certainly very sceptical of claims around more extreme weather events and projected numbers of so-called ‘climate refugees’. Especially considering previous hysterical predictions of 50 million climate refugees by 2010 clearly haven’t come to pass.

      I think it is completely irrational for Australia to develop its own carbon mitigation regime which is nothing like anyone else’s and which will cost jobs, limit our competitiveness and drive up inflation while having a minimal, at best, effect on the global climate. Especially considering most nations who have carbon abatement regimes have had them since 2005 and there is currently no international momentum in terms of other countries introducing carbon abatement mechanisms. A global regime would be a different story, but there is no point in Australia doing something unless it is a part of a global system of carbon dioxide management.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      11:22am | 21/04/11

      So Hamish, if I’m reading you correctly, on the weight of available eveidence you generally accept the scientific hypothesis that AGW is happening, but you’re rightly sceptical of some of the more extreme predictions.  I agree with you completely.

      You then go on to an economic argument about carbon tax with which I disagree fundamentally, but that is a political rather than a scientific disagreement, and involves differences in interpretation of economic, social and environmental policy both here and in the rest of the world.

      So why do you argue against your acknowledged acceptance of the likelihood of the reality of AGW by saying stuff like “all AGWers ever do is appeal to authority”, when your problem is actually with proposals to ameliorate it?

      Maybe it’s because you know that the science behind AGW is pretty damned convincing, but you can’t think of any way to do anything about it that won’t involve some fundamental shifts in the material conditions of your existence - and we can’t admit that, can we?

      You’re not a denier, really - you’re just intellectually dishonest and selfish.

    • Hamish says:

      12:11pm | 21/04/11

      No CJ I’m neither. AGW is a hypothesis, it is yet to be established to my satisfaction that it is occurring based on my own research. In time it may be proved correct. Currently it is a theory. I do not believe there is enough evidence to conclude that AGW is definitely occurring. I do not agree with the government hamstringing our economy on the basis of a currently unproven theory. If everyone else was doing something, rather than winding back their systems, my opinion would be different. There is no logical argument for Australia to introduce its own carbon abatement mechanism which is different to all current systems (of which there’s only one, in europe, which doesn’t work anyway), will achieve nothing for the earth’s climate and will only promote the offshoring of carbon intensive industries to countries with no abatement mechanisms.

      The system has to be global or it will achieve nothing. It is your own intellectual dishonesty which prevents you from accepting such a rational conclusion.

    • AdamC says:

      01:49pm | 21/04/11

      Persephone, is this view of yours going to change if Labor policy changes? It’s looking increasingly likely that it won’t happen anyway, and that the ALP will find a way to dump it. Will you be making excuses for them when and if that happens, or sticking to your present opinion?

      Why defend this dog when Ju-Liar (or the person who replaces her) is more than likely to put it down anyway?

    • Hamish says:

      02:23pm | 21/04/11

      AdamC, I hope you’re not accusing Perse of being a ‘weathervane’, are you? Perse hates weathervanes. She goes around to people’s houses and rips them off the roof. I’m sure Perse’s opinions will just coincidentally transmogrify when the ALP knifes Gillard and dumps the tax. The knifing and the ALP’s positional change will have no direct effect on her view of course.

    • AdamC says:

      02:51pm | 21/04/11

      Hamish, perhaps you are right. Pers went AWOL shortly after Kruddy was knifed (leading me to suspect that she was actualy Therese Rein.) She came back a few months later as a totally committed Gillardite.

    • Hamish says:

      03:27pm | 21/04/11

      Yeah and she stopped talking about the mining tax that was going to be the best thing ever even though it was going to cost jobs and make things more expensive. Now she has another tax to promote, which of course isn’t a tax at all even though it’s a fixed levy payable to the government for use of a resource, and it’s now the best thing ever even though it will also cost jobs and make everything more expensive. It won’t achieve anything, but, you know, it’s still awesome. So, you see AdamC, she actually hasn’t changed her position at all. Only the name of the tax has changed.

    • persephone says:

      03:28pm | 21/04/11

      I have been advocating for action on climate change from within the Labor party since 2001 ish.

      Back then, no one had much of an idea at all what I was talking about.

      So the ALP dumping a carbon price won’t mean I’ll stop advocating for action.

      Unlike some of the Liberals here, I don’t change my opinions when the leader changes.

    • Matt says:

      04:33pm | 21/04/11

      Tax, persephone. Its a carbon tax.

    • AdamC says:

      05:00pm | 21/04/11

      Alright, Pers, I’ll take your word for it. Though I am trying to recall what you said about Ju-Liar’s ‘no carbon tax’ pre-election pledge. I should think I would remember if ‘Principles’ Persephone gave Gillard a carpeting.

      Happy Easter everyone.

    • Joel B1 says:

      07:04am | 21/04/11

      Oh! You meant those chicken littles, not the real chicken little scare-mongering warmists.

    • Fog Badger says:

      07:12am | 21/04/11

      Agreed @Climate realist number9
      - appeal to authority: fail.

      Hawker Britton
      - fail

      What a waste of time.

    • TM says:

      07:32am | 21/04/11

      You and your ilk are the chicken littles, Ashley. Who are you to judge that the fears of real industry are overblown? A wage slave that is savant in economics? More like a wanna be piss ant!

      I laugh at your lie that BHP has committed $48B. It seems that the “might invest” has been forgotten and please enlighten us with the time frame of the possible investment? Fraud!

      Do you serious come here and expect me to swallow your crap? The companies you name that support a tax that will transition to carbon trading have a stake in this. Nothing like making billions in trading of air. Yeah, lets put the future price in the hands of the investment houses that in part, were responsible for the GFC.

      Your crowd are the chicken littles with your outlandish claims that we are all going to drown by rising sea levels and all cook under rising temperatures. How is the 50M climate refugee situation that was predicted to come about by now?

      How is the progress on the 100ft sea level prediction going?

      How is the prediction that Australian cities would have ran out of water by now?

      As time progresses, more of the chicken little predictions by the AGW religion falls over. I’m glad to see you put your name to the fraud as you are added to the list that will be ridiculed when the scam falls to bits!

    • persephone says:

      08:00am | 21/04/11

      TM

      how nice. You make up a series of predictions and then claim they haven’t been met.

      So easy to do.

      If you want to be taken seriously, provide links to each of these so readers can see for themselves.

      On the other hand, I will point to the consistent predictions by climate scientists of an increase in the number and severity of extreme weather events, and then to the increase in the number and severity of extreme weather events around the world.

      (I’ll show you my links when you show me yours).

      BTW, this is directed at TM. I want to see how much he actually knows, as opposed to what he has accepted blindly because he wants to believe it.

    • Chris L says:

      08:41am | 21/04/11

      You are right to criticize the use of the word “commitment”, but then you take ideas of potential dangers and call them predictions. Let’s be fair TM, both sides are using tricks and misrepresentation in their arguments.

    • MarK says:

      09:11am | 21/04/11

      50million refugee lie pers

      http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/04/15/the-un-disappears-50-million-climate-refugees-then-botches-the-disappearing-attempt/

      100 metre rising claim - TM was wrong it was not 100 ft it was more like 300 foot

      http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/1867444.htm#transcript

      That Robyn Williams a “scientist” on the ABC Science Show repeating Professor Mike Archer dean of science at NSW Uni.

      Hell google it. The claim is so well known there are maps showing what the world would look like with this rise.

      http://resumbrae.com/archive/warming/100meter.html

      Australia running dry

      “TIM Flannery, an expert in bones, has made a fortune from books and lectures warning that we face global warming doom. He scared us so well that we last year made him Australian of the Year.

      In March, Flannery said: “The water problem is so severe for Adelaide that it may run out of water by early 2009.”

      In fact, Adelaide’s reservoirs are now 75 per cent full, just weeks from 2009.

      In June last year, Flannery warned Brisbane’s “water supplies are so low they need desalinated water urgently, possibly in as little as 18 months”.

      In fact, 18 months later, its dams are 46 per cent full after Brisbane’s wettest spring in 27 years.

      In 2005, Flannery predicted Sydney’s dams could be dry in just two years.

      In fact, three years later its dams are 63 per cent full, not least because June last year was its wettest since 1951.

      In 2004, Flannery said global warming would cause such droughts that “there is a fair chance Perth will be the 21st century’s first ghost metropolis”.

      In fact, Perth now has the lowest water restrictions of any state capital, thanks to its desalination plant and dams that are 40 per cent full after the city’s wettest November in 17 years. “

      From Flannery debunked by BoltA

      http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/warmist-cant-take-the-heat/story-e6frfhqf-1225878118730

      Read that transcript

      So now where are yours pers.

      I got plenty more.

      Also show me where China is actually reducing its emission tonnage again please.

      Is China still a good guy?

    • TM says:

      09:13am | 21/04/11

      You are a fool if you believe I made up the predictions. They have been well documented so go out there and find them yourself. I note as a long time reader here that your arguments have been shot down too many times to count and you have an aversion to blog saturation by numerous comments you make to throw threads off topic. Not really trolling but just as disgusting!

      I actually was a believer of AGW four years ago but evaluating the evidence and have come to the conclusion that the evidence is lacking on both sides so it is a matter of belief.

      I don’t do belief as I’m not into religion. I remain a sceptic to the point that at times I’m sceptical of my scepticism, a concept that people of your ilk will never grasp.

      What do I know? Enough to be involved in the movement against this tax, as an organiser and was a key speaker at the Brisbane rally. Enough to know that Monckton will be out here in a few months to speak with two other Australians. Enough to know that there will be a $30B+ advertising campaign against the tax, once the government has actually formulated a policy. Enough to know that if this tax gets up, Abbott promised two nights ago to a certain organisation to repeal the tax and if not a DD will ensue.

      You clowns have lost already but live in denial that this tax is a given. Two thirds of Australians are against the tax and the more are against it every day.

      That’s all I have to say to you, go play with someone else as I’m not going to feed you. I’ve got better things to do like contributing to the economy, another concept alien to you, judging by the time you spend on blogs!

    • CABAL says:

      09:14am | 21/04/11

      @persephone

      you do know that no one listens to your drivel right?

    • Hamish says:

      09:29am | 21/04/11

      Hey Perse, you can read the saga around the whole 50 million climate refugees by 2010 here: http://asiancorrespondent.com/author/gavinatkins/

      The figure was actually quoted in the UN general assembly. The problem with the AGW lobby, as educated as they may be, is they obviously never learnt the moral of the boy who cried wolf story.

    • TM says:

      09:38am | 21/04/11

      A mistake in my last post $30M, not $30B for the benefit of the pedants.

      Must be confused with the $30B the government has borrowed this year that is being pissed against the wall!

    • persephone says:

      09:43am | 21/04/11

      TM

      so given how easy it all is to find, and how much you’ve researched it all, the task I’ve given you should be a no brainer.

      As I said, if you can’t provide the evidence, chances are that you’ve just accepted what you’ve been told, rather than checking things out for yourself.

      MarK, the terms of my post were clear. If TM can’t do the job himself, don’t come running in to help him out. You’re just confirming that he doesn’t have any evidence of his own to back up his ideas.

      Cabal

      sorry, what did you say?

    • MarK says:

      09:46am | 21/04/11

      I got it for you TM.

      Tossed in the China one too.

      You know pers says they are actually reducing their emissions. Blatant lie.

      @CABAL - I listen to it. I read it. And I destroy it lie by lie

    • Richard says:

      10:54am | 21/04/11

      What sort of game are you playing persephone if someone posts self-evident facts, but then you stubbornly refuse to accept it and demand “evidence”, so then that evidence is provided, but then you say “ah but it doesn’t count because someone else provided it”?

      I mean, are we trying to find out the truth here or are we just playing a merry little dance with you that serves no purpose at all? You clearly cannot handle real debate, so you want to side-track everyone with your pointless little games.

      You asked for evidence, you were given evidence, case closed. Apologize please and lets just get on with some serious debate if you don’t mind.

    • TimB says:

      12:08pm | 21/04/11

      LOL. Holy crap.

      I agree Richard, this is nuts. The evidence somehow doesn’t count because it didn’t come from TM?!

      My god, how much more ridiculous can you get Persephone? Either the evidence MarK has provided is valid or it isn’t. You decide. Don’t dismiss it because it didn’t come via your choice of messenger, that’s beyond petulant.

    • persephone says:

      12:17pm | 21/04/11

      Richard

      because saying someone said something without backing it up isn’t a self evident fact.

      TM has said that climate scientists have made these predictions. However, he is unable to back up these claims with any evidence.

      If these claims are self evident facts - and according to TM, the information is easy to find - then I’m not sure what his problem is.

      I’ll try and get back later to deal with other comments here, but it’s school hols and I’m a bit time limited at present!

    • Chris L says:

      02:26pm | 21/04/11

      I still say they weren’t predictions, they were possible scenarios (you can tell by the use of words such as “might” and “may”) and that was my criticism of TM’s post, but I think you’re on the losing end of this one Pers.

    • MarK says:

      03:07pm | 21/04/11

      “MarK, the terms of my post were clear. If TM can’t do the job himself, don’t come running in to help him out. You’re just confirming that he doesn’t have any evidence of his own to back up his ideas.”

      The self delusion and intellectual dishonesty shown by this statement is amazing.

      Truly amazing.

      You then say

      “TM has said that climate scientists have made these predictions”

      This is a lie. It is untrue. It is a fabrication. Nowhere in any of TM’s posts in this thread did he make that claim.

      Nowhere.

      He referred to

      “You and your ilk are the chicken littles, Ashley.”

      and

      “As time progresses, more of the chicken little predictions by the AGW religion falls over.”

      Nothing about climate scientists.

      I went and checked Ashleys bio. And went to the Hawker Britton site to make sure. Guess what I found

      ” Ashley holds a Masters of International Law and a Bachelor of Arts degree with Honours in Political Science, both from the Australian National University in Canberra.”

      It sort of follows that unless I am mistaken Ahley is not a “climate scientist” either.

      So why the avoidance?

      Why the hiding?

      Why do you make stuff up?

      On China you said;

      “MarK

        don’t be obtuse.

        What are your references to prove that China’s emissions are going to rise at the rate you claim?

        The last time someone provided me with links to this, it turned out that they were either out of date or openly stated that the projections were based on what would happen if China didn’t act.

        Everything else I’ve seen confirms that China is committed to real cuts.

        If you have information which shows otherwise (hell, I’ll even accept a movie) then I’d be interested to see it.

        Abuse and accusations of lying are, as usual, all you really have.”

      I replied with this

      http://www.climate-connect.co.uk/Home/?q=node/498

      Do you now admit you were and are wrong again on a point of fact?

      The facts are in and are not on your side.

      Own up to your errors and apologise.

    • persephone says:

      04:15pm | 21/04/11

      How cute.

      TM can’t back up his claims, so all his buddies come rushing in to help him out.

      Yep, they got it wrong on refugee numbers. When there’s so many people making comments and predictions, this is bound to happen.

      Doesn’t disprove global warming. Can’t see how it even could remotely. It isn’t, after all, a prediction about the science.

      As for the 100 ft sea rise prediction (why feet? Haven’t you guys gone metric yet?) you don’t attach a timeline to this.

      As far as I can make out, that’s because the predictions made about this one aren’t time specific - they’re event related.

      So it’s not an even, permanent sea level rise happening across the world. It’s localised severe events which cause temporary sea surges of up to 100 foot.

      And the 100 foot number is there because it’s based on a real event, the 2004 tsunami.

      So that one came true even before it was predicted.

      The consistent prediction which interests me goes right back - I first encountered it in 2001, but it’s older than that.

      And that’s the increase in the frequency and severity of extreme weather events.

      That prediction is well and truly proven to be accurate.

      (MarK, that’s the second link you’ve given me in two days which has shut down my internet. Once is an accident, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action.

      Interesting how you didn’t link to the original source in either case - still can’t find the original of your China article. Is that because you have blind faith in the compilers of those sites and don’t bother looking at the original?

      And another warning. Any post which accuses me of lying will be ignored in future. There are many things I am but I am not - knowingly - a liar.

      I told you before that I regarded these accusations as admissions that I’d won. I still regard them that way.

      For a while, you laid off the abuse. Now it’s back.

      I am under no obligation to answer your questions, and I won’t if you abuse me.

      You can ask me exactly the same questions without the abuse. If you persist, I’ll assume you’re not expecting an answer).

    • MarK says:

      08:49am | 22/04/11

      ”  persephone says:

        04:15pm | 21/04/11

        How cute.”

      Yes I am. irl I am a drop dead hunk.

        ”  TM can’t back up his claims, so all his buddies come rushing in to help him out.”

      No people come out to refute your pointlessness

        “Yep, they got it wrong on refugee numbers. When there’s so many people making comments and predictions, this is bound to happen.”

      These people were the UN. One of the drivers of this bullsjit.

      Factor of error 100%

      100%

      Or 50 million people - that was the low end of their expectations btw.

      ”  Doesn’t disprove global warming. Can’t see how it even could remotely. It isn’t, after all, a prediction about the science.”

      LAWL.

      Yes it is . AGW “science” led to them to this fear campaign and hysterical warning. It didn’t occur. The science was wrong.

      100% wrong. 50 million people wrong.

        ” As for the 100 ft sea rise prediction (why feet? Haven’t you guys gone metric yet?) you don’t attach a timeline to this.

        As far as I can make out, that’s because the predictions made about this one aren’t time specific - they’re event related.

        So it’s not an even, permanent sea level rise happening across the world. It’s localised severe events which cause temporary sea surges of up to 100 foot.”

      It’s 100 metres actually. Read the links.

      ”  And the 100 foot number is there because it’s based on a real event, the 2004 tsunami.”

        So that one came true even before it was predicted.”

      WTF are you on about?

        The consistent prediction which interests me goes right back - I first encountered it in 2001, but it’s older than that.

        And that’s the increase in the frequency and severity of extreme weather events.

        That prediction is well and truly proven to be accurate.”

      No. Wrong again. Your idol is false.

      http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/04/19/why-it-seems-that-severe-weather-is-getting-worse-when-the-data-shows-otherwise-a-historical-perspective/

      ”  (MarK, that’s the second link you’ve given me in two days which has shut down my internet. Once is an accident, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action.

        Interesting how you didn’t link to the original source in either case - still can’t find the original of your China article. Is that because you have blind faith in the compilers of those sites and don’t bother looking at the original?”

      All my links are fine. Your browser is the issue.

      You ask for proof provide it. You dodge the provision of proof with pathetic excuses. We can all see where you are headed here.

        ”  And another warning. Any post which accuses me of lying will be ignored in future. There are many things I am but I am not - knowingly - a liar.”

      Don’t be so presumptuous to think you can “warn” me. You tell a lie I will call you a liar. You ignore everything anyway. Your threat is as terrifying as a leaf of limp lettuce.

        ” I told you before that I regarded these accusations as admissions that I’d won. I still regard them that way.”

      BAHAHAHAHAHA

      I get this mental picture of pers stamping her feet saying I win over and over and wondering why the adults are talking about things away from her.

        “For a while, you laid off the abuse. Now it’s back.

        I am under no obligation to answer your questions, and I won’t if you abuse me.”

      Cry me a river. Couldn’t care less.

        ”  You can ask me exactly the same questions without the abuse. If you persist, I’ll assume you’re not expecting an answer).”

      /yawn

    • persephone says:

      07:31am | 23/04/11

      MarK

      I’m sorry, you’re the one behaving childishly.

      I’ve apologised to you, when I thought that something I said might have upset you - I didn’t even wait for you to say you’d been offended.

      Good manners are something I was taught when I was young.

      They get you a lot further than bad ones.

    • MarK says:

      07:39am | 21/04/11

      Hi Ashley.

      How much will the carbon tax cost Australia?

      For this cost how many degrees, part degrees, fraction of degrees or whatever will the earth cool?

      Hell, tell me what this tax will do to LIMIT temperature rises since this was the new excuse and changing of the goal posts that the warming zealots are now trying to tell me this is all about.

      What will the temperature rise be LIMITED to as a result of this tax?

      Chop chop son. Need to talk about something before we get onto the child porn scandal in Sth Australia and the burning down of a few detention centre buildings as a result of the totally in control of it all policies of Julia and Bob Brown.

    • Chris L says:

      08:45am | 21/04/11

      MarK, did you read the article? Carbon pricing is meant as a mechanism to make research and non-polluting a profitable venture for businesses in comparrison to doing nothing. There is no plan to tax the environment.

    • Hamish says:

      09:04am | 21/04/11

      MarK, there is zero rational argument argument for Australia doing this. It won’t affect the global temperature. It probably won’t even effect global emmissions. It will cost jobs. It will be inflationary. No other country on earth is doing the same thing (14% of countries are doing something about carbon which is different to what the ALP proposes and isn’t actually reducing emmissions anyway). These points are all valid whether you believe in AGW or not. People who support this tax support it for purely ideological reasons. There is no logical argument to support it.

    • MarK says:

      09:30am | 21/04/11

      Oh I read the article.

      Then I read what I wrote.

      The I read what you wrote.

      Then I lol’ed.

      Then I tried to find where I said tax the environment.

      I lol’ed again.

      Then I realised the tax is morphing into something else again.

      Can someone from the warmist religious bastion of intellectual vacuousness please tell me unequivocally what this tax is about. And please make it stick for a week.

      In the meantime will someone answer the questions above in my op?

    • The Original Oz says:

      09:36am | 21/04/11

      Chris L - If Carbon Pricing is meant as a mechanism to make research and non-polluting profitable please explain how this will work. The redheaded bint and her bitch Combet have stated that Co2 producing industries will be compensated by grater than 95% of what they pay in the price, over 2 million families will be over compensated using 50% of the revenue raised, there is a committment of 10% of the revenue to go to the IPCC via the UN and out of whats left there will be some investment in alternative energy sources. The figures seem a bit rubbery there. If industry is going to receive back over 95%, and 50 percent is going to compensate bogan low income families and 10% to the IPCC - lets see thats 155% of the revenue raised so far. That leaves a negative amount to be “invested” into R&D and alternatives. That seems to be very little for research especially when you consider that Gillard has also mooted a $400 million cut to research granting. As for incentives for indusry to change their ways - what incentive, they will be compensated nearly the full amount they are made to pay. The balance will just be added to the prices of their products. The energy companies will take the opportunity to hike their prices again bleating that they had no choice because of the Carbon Tax. Every stage of manufacturing, distribution and sales will see prices increase due to increased input costs such as electricity and fuel. And if 2 million familes are getting over compensated for the increases that means the rest of the Australian households are the ones who will be paying the costs.

      Bad Policy based on faulty science and logic but in reality a wealth redistribution scheme that will do absolutely nothing to address the perceived climate problem (fairy tales united) and will do absolutely nothing to address real polluters such as those that pump chemicals and toxins into the environment - note Co2 is not a toxin, is not listed as a pollutant on the EPA website, is a trace gas that is vital for life on earth and is even used to boost production in greenhouses.

    • Richard McMannis says:

      10:36am | 21/04/11

      Perhaps in amongst all that reading and lol’ing, you should have taken some meds?
      PS where are you’re peer reviewed papers and data sets that support AGW is not happening?

    • MarK says:

      11:22am | 21/04/11

      Oh hai Richard look up the thread a bit son.

      Provided plenty of links.

      Go to town.

      Apologise when you are done.

      “Perhaps in amongst all that reading and lol’ing, you should have taken some meds?”

      My favourite line. Take your meds MarK. It means I have won. My arguments are too solid to refute. It means I am better than you at this and at everything including life. And I am an alcoholic and can maintain a rational though process and argue the points. You however cannot.

      I am better….that is all.

    • Kevin says:

      01:10pm | 21/04/11

      “How much will the carbon tax cost Australia?

      For this cost how many degrees, part degrees, fraction of degrees or whatever will the earth cool?”

      Australia contributes 1.5% of carbon emissions.  The current goal is to keep temperature increases to 2 degrees by reducing carbon emissions by 20%.  If the carbon tax reduces Australia’s emissions by that amount, then the tax makes a 1.5% contribution to that overall goal.  In other words our fair share of helping to solve the problem which we have helped create.  (I realise that if you argue entirely from the perspective of self-interest, the words “fair share” don’t carry much weight.)

      Of course if other countries fail to reduce their emissions, the global goal won’t be achieved.  But we can hardly start lecturing the big emitters if we are doing nothing ourselves.

    • MarK says:

      01:56pm | 21/04/11

      Do the maths then Kevin.

      How much for what price.

      Fill us right in now. Don’t be shy son.

      And please ensure you back up the maths and give an absolute guarantee with “science” that shows that this definitely occur because of our actions.

      You are close to the chop….errr answer stage.

      just a little bit more

    • Chris L says:

      02:50pm | 21/04/11

      Mark, your request “tell me what this tax will do to LIMIT temperature rises” seemed to indicate that you thought carbon pricing was meant to cool the environment directly. Either that or you did not read the explanation given in the article. Without a sarcasm font it is difficult to know if people are serious or not. (regardless, a good lol is a healthy thing)

      It seems Kevin has answered your question.

    • The Original Oz says:

      03:40pm | 21/04/11

      ChrisL - no response to my points???  Just what incentive is given for businesses to change their ways and for new technologies to be developed. Read my post above - already Gillard and Combet have committed 155% of revenue before anything goes to research. Math seems to be a particular problem for these people. Also why tax Carbon Dioxide when it is not a pollutant and is not responsible for climatic change (see my other post/s in this thread and read the paper linked to.

      Like persephone you seem to only be able to trot out the “Party Line” with no real research or true understanding of what you are talking about.

    • Kevin says:

      03:48pm | 21/04/11

      @MarK:  you’re getting silly and just because you insist, doesn’t mean that others have to play your games.
      Your attempt to reduce everything to some sort of economic cost analysis betrays your narrow thinking.
      If a doctor recommends to someone with cancer that they undergo chemotherapy, they could ask the same questions.  What difference will the treatment make and how much will it cost?
      The doctor’s answer to the first question is likely to be that the treatment could result in total remission, partial remission or make no difference at all.  Regarding the cost, that depends on whether or not the person recovers or dies early.
      Using your logic the person should do nothing.
      You’ve obviously been hard at it all day on this post.  I suggest you give it a rest and have an enjoyable and safe Easter Break.  I intend to do likewise.

    • Chris L says:

      05:00pm | 21/04/11

      @OriginalOz, I’m having trouble finding any report of the promise that businesses “will be compensated by greater than 95% of what they pay”. Please provide a link, or just keep with the name calling and juevenile taunts, whichever you prefer grin

    • MarK says:

      06:11pm | 21/04/11

      Games Kevin.

      these are not games.

      This tax is an economic action plan to create a certain outcome. Any comparisons, homilies, anecdotes or bedtime stories about doctors merely betrays your lack of anything credible to act.

      Who gives a shit about a doctor and cancer.

      The government is bringing economic force projection to bare on the economy to reduce CO2 emissions.

      Will this reduction do anything to achieve whatever goals there are is the only question that needs to be answered and of course accompanying this is the cost to achieve it.

      It is naive in the greatest possible way to say you should not use cost benefit analysis to economic solutions particularly when they are macro economic solution that affect the whole economy.

      That is the most moronic thing I have read concerned with this debate all day.

      My break is doing this. I love it. Repudiating the ridiculous. I feed on it.

      And chocolate.

      Gaia never sleeps Kevin. your religion needs you. Better think of something better quick. The last analogy was pointless.

    • Adam says:

      07:26pm | 21/04/11

      @ Kevin - Using your analogy of a doctor and sick patient, it should go something more like this:

      A witch doctor has 195 patients from a tight knit community, all with a mystery illness. Despite having no empirical evidence if it will work, the doctor tells them they all must undergo a new form of lifelong experimental carbon treatment. He states that if they do not all undergo the same treatment, the ones that have had the treatment will just keep getting reinfected by those who haven’t had the treatment. He also cites some vague reasons about how they must act quickly or they will get sicker, fearing his scam may be discovered if he lets them do a bit of independent research. A patient named Australia, who has a non-contagious strain of the illness, pays their money and jumps in line for the treatment despite having no idea what caused the illness, no idea if the proposed treatment will work and no idea if all the other patients will undertake the treatment.

      There, now the analogy fits the circumstances better.

    • Richard McMannis says:

      10:16am | 22/04/11

      No Peer reviewed papers, No data sets. Just denier bunkum MarK.
      Go stick your head back in the sand.

    • MarK says:

      12:06pm | 22/04/11

      BAHAHAHAHAHAHA Richard.

      You go from wishing me peace to this.

      GG sir gg.

      Peer reviewed ...... that term means nothing when you apply it to climate science. in fact it denotes fraud and manipulation and a betrayal of the proper scientific process.

      I will be seeing some sand today when I go for a surf.

      i will make sure I stick my head it. Probably fond some more convincing arguments left there than reading your analogies and contention that you do not look at the economic costs of economic action.

      Yah real smart that one.

    • Richard McMannis says:

      03:32pm | 22/04/11

      The denial is strong in this one.
      The facts cannot sway him from his folly.
      The Abbott spell is powerful and makes fools of those who succumb.
      Let us pity him and move on.

    • MarK says:

      06:24pm | 22/04/11

      Well Richard appears to has run out of material.

      may I suggest some light reading Richard before you sink deeper into internet meme territory? If you keep trying you may get better.

      Anyway very interesting article

      http://www.informath.org/media/a42.htm

      Hmmmm

      Makes you think

    • Chris L says:

      04:49pm | 25/04/11

      Original Oz, you gave me a whole four hours to get a response to you (which you can find above) but after four days have not supplied the link I requested. Having trouble with that now that I’ve asked for some sort of proof of your claims?

      Then that must qualify you for a paraphrasing of your own words - Like Mark you seem to only be able to trot out the “Party Line” with no real research or true understanding of what you are talking about.

      Have a nice day grin

    • Rosie says:

      07:53am | 21/04/11

      In the end Foxy Loxy led Gilly Dilly, Goosey Swanny, Henny Penny, Roxy Toxy, Ruddy Muddy, Comby Womby and the rest of the Dopey Party into his foxy-hole and slowly feasted on them one by one until they were all eaten up!

    • DJ says:

      07:57am | 21/04/11

      OMG and this character gives advice to KRudd on foreign affairs. He is a blithering idiot.

    • John A Neve says:

      08:23am | 21/04/11

      DJ,

      Rather than name calling, why don’t you write an incisive piece pointing out where he is incorrect.
      Maybe Ashley isn’t the one who is “a blithering idiot”, try the mirror.

    • fairsfair says:

      02:08pm | 21/04/11

      Oh the irony JAN. It made me smile smile

    • Nick says:

      08:06am | 21/04/11

      What a load of CRAP! If I am not mistaken I think it is the warmists who are running around like chicken little with their threats of dire consequences if we “don’t act now” It has been taking a while but people are waking up to this BS and it will be the warmists who will end up with egg on their faces.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      08:07am | 21/04/11

      Considering china and the US will not bring in a carbon tax then this self-crucifixion seems somewhat pointless. The left is only interested in prosperity destruction and income redistribution. There is no better pretext for this then claiming someone needs to pay. Really? Why? Using that logic we could force the politicians to pay for the debt they have created for surely it’s a more dangerous negative externality then plant food.

      This article is a negative externality and worst it’s filled with lies.

      CO2 is not a pollutant and labors addiction to tax will continue labors drive to retard this countries prosperity.

    • I'm Over It says:

      08:08am | 21/04/11

      we must have a carbon tax because the sky will fall in if we don’t
      we must not have a carbon tax because the sky will fall in we do.

      What i find most interesting is that the people who support the climate change argument, do so based on an almost religious belief in science, but these same people oppose nuclear energy in australia, by saying the science is wrong.

      go figure. I think you’re all mad, and I don’t really care anymore

    • persephone says:

      09:16am | 21/04/11

      No, they don’t.

      The science supports climate change.

      I have no argument with the science around nuclear power (how’s that working out in Japan, one of the most scientifically based cultures in our world?); my argument is with the economics.

    • MarK says:

      10:09am | 21/04/11

      “The science supports climate change. “

      No it doesn’t. If it did you could win 10 grand

    • Al says:

      08:16am | 21/04/11

      Ok, I’ve read these posts and I have to say that climate change is real, whatever the arguments are about the tax. back in the olden days when I was at primary school, in the 1950’s, we were told that by 2000 we’d be living in underwater bubbles unless we planted trees to absorb the carbon dioxide.In the 1970’s in my part of the world, the power generators, Government owned, planted hundreds of acres of blue gums in an effort to alleviate the emissions. In the 80’s there was a Federal Government scheme for farmers to plant more trees, unfortunately the money was granted to them but a lot of the million trees were never planted. A simple solution that we should revisit, I think

    • Kurisu Sonsaku says:

      08:33am | 21/04/11

      Tell me Ashley, will Villawood be getting some carbon credits today???

    • MarK says:

      09:14am | 21/04/11

      LAWL.

    • James D says:

      08:50am | 21/04/11

      It is all about changing behaviour over time. A lengthy period of time. The average Joe cannot see beyond Abbotts “great big new tax” slogan. It is a fact that Europe and elsewhere are making changes.  Australia is so caught up in a war of words over how much it will cost that the necessary change in behaviour is going to be extremely difficult to achieve. Amazingly the coalition in 2007 went to the election supporting change and Malcolm Turnbull was nearly over the line with it. But now the radioshock jocks and tabloids who never think further than next week have definitely swayed opinion. This is extremely unfortunate for future generations. It will happen though but take much longer and eventually cost more.

    • Chewy says:

      08:51am | 21/04/11

      I know import exposed manufactures who are quietly sh*tting themselves over this carbon tax. It aint no chicken little for the people who get their hands dirty in the real world outside the spin world of Hawker Britton.
      Unless you impose a carbon tax or tariffs on imports all you will do is wipe out Australian businesses/jobs in the real world. People who produce widgets and work in the real world get this, spin doctors and apparatchiks who have never got their hands dirty dont. 
      Get it.

    • Hamish says:

      08:55am | 21/04/11

      That’s funny, I though the chicken littles were all telling us that we are going to die in an apocalyptic climate catastrophe if the government doesn’t introduce a new tax. Must be different chickens? To be honest, I’m getting a bit bored with this issue. When’s this climate armageddon going to happen already?

    • AdamC says:

      09:53am | 21/04/11

      Ha, yes, let’s just get the apocalypse over and done with!

      If the climate brigade were really serious about this, they would have done something at Copenhagen. (Remember Copenhagen?) Since that collapsed, I feel as if everyone is just trying to keep a dead issue alive.

    • Hamish says:

      11:09am | 21/04/11

      Oh yeah, Copenhagen, I remember that. Wasn’t that where those paragons of climate virtue, China (who according to Perse, CJ, et al are totally reducing their emmissions, no really, they are) ratfucked everyone? All those planes and limos too. Oh well maybe next junket? Maybe they could do the next one at a beach resort in Antarctica. I hear it’s a balmy 30 degrees there these days.

    • AdamC says:

      02:46pm | 21/04/11

      Actually, they had the next one in Cancun, so you’re sort of half right. And just about as much came out of it as a Girls Gone Wild Conference (which would be more fun).

      And I don’t think you can blame the Chinese for the failure of COP15. There just wasn’t the serious will to devise a global system that we were led to believe there was. I mean, would you have activists dressed as ducks parading around a conference that was really designed to do something? (And, I stress, these activists were actually invited to the conference, they didn’t crash it or anything.)

    • Hamish says:

      04:08pm | 21/04/11

      Yeah I think that’s fair enough AdamC. I think there was enough will to fly there first class in a jumbo with a massive entourage, get a limo to the venue and sit in heated comfort all day. There just wasn’t enough will to, you know, do anything. But, to be fair, most AGW pushers only think the plebs should pay the price for reducing emmissions, the climate grandees have too many planes to catch and conferences to attend. At least the Ruddster got the opportunity to swan around on the world stage and use the word ratfuck and it did show up the climate lobby as a bunch of useless hypocrites, so it wasn’t all bad.

    • AdamC says:

      09:04am | 21/04/11

      My first point is that, as usual, articles by partisan activists are poorly-written and boringly predictable.

      My second point is, despite what I am sure Ashley learnt in high school debating, fallacious appeals to authority are not particularly convincing. I don’t care what IKEA thinks of a carbon tax/ETS. Why is your position the right one and others’ the wrong one, Ashley?

      I actually have a lot of time for the Bluescope Steel CEO on this issue because he has been prepared to sensibly and simply lay out the dangers of a system that merely exports emissions. There is none of that sort of thinking here, just mindless spewing of tired spin, like we hear from the automatons on the government’s front bench. (My particular, favourite at the moment is Chris Bowen. I have, at times, genuinely wondered whether he retains the capacity for independent thought.)

    • Hamish says:

      09:19am | 21/04/11

      I have a lot of respect for Chris Bowen. He’s the only person I know who can deliver pre-prepared spin without blinking an eye while there is a stampede of African elephants happening at the same time in the same room.

    • The Original Oz says:

      09:09am | 21/04/11

      Where to start on this article???

      “But like Chicken Little, these fears are not just overblown, but downright misleading.” This really sums up to the Warming alarmists more than those opposing the tax. Hey guys - the Climate is changing, it is not anthropogenic but is part of a natural cycle. Imposing a tax on everything will not change a thing. Have a proper read of the document (Peer Reviewed study) at this link http://gao.spb.ru/english/astrometr/abduss-nkj-2009.pdf  I know it has some big words in it but if you persevere you might actually learn a bit of reality about the AGW/CC religion.

      “for Australia to walk away from a carbon price really would mean the sky falling in for our economy, businesses and consumers.” - what utter nonsense. The biggest threat to Australia’s future prosperity, the welfare of the citizens and business interests is the AGW/CC movement itself and this ridiculous bit of social engineering/wealth redistribution that the Redheaded bint refers to as a Price on Carbon, not a tax. This is utter rubbish. Gillard and her cohorts are making Australia an international laughing stock, but no doubt other Governments are watching with interest to see if she is successful in imposing a tax on the air that we breath - a holy grail for Governments since time immemorial.

    • Zopo says:

      09:21am | 21/04/11

      Why does every solution involve money not action… and penalising people with money doesn’t necessarily cause action either.

      Why not give a rebate to those who do work to reduce their carbon emissions and reward them. Instead of charging people to first then giving back if you “do the right thing”.

      An incentive of reward is better than an incentive to not be punished.

    • persephone says:

      09:51am | 21/04/11

      Because individual actions aren’t enough; we need to change our whole economy.

      The ‘carrot and stick’ approach is used in so many situations because, quite simply, it’s been proven to work.

      And people won’t be rewarded for doing the right thing, or punished for doing the wrong thing - the vast majority will be compensated to the extent that they won’t suffer financially if they don’t change what they’re doing.

      That’s because the target of this is not individuals.

    • Production King says:

      10:08am | 21/04/11

      I’m with you Zopo.  The carrot works better than the stick!  Or at least a combo of the two.

      Clearly there is scaremongering but whilst the AUD is at these levels then jobs will be lost there is no simply doubt about that.  (I work in manufacturing sector).  However it would be temporary, as soon as the dollar gets back below $1 USD then it changes.  Or if the US economy recovers…suddnely sending goods to a little island with a small market on the other side of the world is not so attractive.  That could take a while tho!

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      10:45am | 21/04/11

      Absolute bollocks, persephone. 
       
      Those that will be compensated (in fact probably overcompensated) are, in the main, ALP voters ie low income earners and dole bludgers. 
       
      This is a totally inequitable way of implementing yet another tax on those who work their arses off and achieve something.

    • persephone says:

      12:20pm | 21/04/11

      And those notorious lefty pinkos, pensioners.

    • Jimbo says:

      09:28am | 21/04/11

      Oh nice propaganda piece. Especially the co-opting of the Chicken Little term - we all know that means Warmists/Alarmists. Wasn’t ‘denier’ good enough for you? It’s quite laughabale how desperate your side is becoming. I bet you dodn’t even know who Maurice Strong is.

    • Sag says:

      09:33am | 21/04/11

      It is the usual tactic of Hawker-Briton that everything they say they accuse the the opposition of doing it. We’ve seen this in the Parliament in Gillard’s rantings e.g. 3 word slogans, wreckers, Chicken Little —- all the things Labor actually do.
      Pay tax or DIE! - the world is going to end! now who is the alarmist Chicken Little?—- It’s a good think you have chosen Comrade Flannery as your Commissar - your case is becoming more ridiculous every day - the people woken up to your scam.

    • John says:

      09:52am | 21/04/11

      The consensus is in, global warming is dead. Record cool temperatures around the world, let’s get serious. If enough business leaders spoke against this carbon tax, it would be over tomorrow.

    • Richard says:

      10:06am | 21/04/11

      Dude, your arguments are invalid.

      You say:
      “ast week we saw no less than twenty separate companies and organisations including some of our largest energy producers, generators and retailers like AGL, BP and Pacific Hydro; national transportation organisations like Linfox Transport and the Australasian Railway Association; and international businesses like GE and IKEA, all publicly support a carbon price mechanism. Combined, these major national and international companies help power our homes and businesses, keep us clothed, fed and warm and help ensure that we get what we want when we need it.”

      And you don’t think this could possibly be explained by Greg Combet’s veiled threats that if business “doesn’t get inside the tent” and “come to the table” then they will be on the raw end of the compensation stick (or is that ‘schtick’?)

      “Then there are the nation’s institutional investors, representing around $600 billion in investments under management. Companies like AMP Capital Investors, Aviva, Deutsche Bank, Goldman Sachs, Mirvac, Stockland and BT Investment Management, amongst the nearly 60 members of the Investor Group on Climate Change have all said they support the Government taking action on climate change through the introduction of “a well-designed carbon price to support the transition to a low-carbon economy”. “

      Oh, you don’t say? It couldn’t possibly have anything to do with George Soros’ own statements that “The system can be gamed,”... “That’s why financial types like me like it—because there are financial opportunities” could it?

      Seriously dude, you are either gullible or disingenuous. That’s cool, but don’t try to dissuade the rest of us for having valid misgivings or from giving pertinent warnings about this whole bunk scheme to anyone who will listen (which should be the government. If the government isn’t willing to listen to its constituents, and isn’t willing to seek a mandate for its policies which it kept concealed during the election campaign, then where is their legitimacy?)

    • Richard says:

      10:24am | 21/04/11

      linky for that George Soros quote if anyone cares enough about the truth to investigate it: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aXRBOxU5KT5M

      Interesting to note that, in that article, all the ‘Friends of the Earth’ environmental activists are arguing precisely AGAINST a carbon trading scheme, for exactly this same reason that it is guaranteed to be rorted and defrauded by big plutocratic corrupt banksters.

    • Anna C says:

      10:18am | 21/04/11

      Just because the Labor/Greens Party and their mates keep saying it, doesn’t make it true. You guys can keep repeating yourselves til the cows come home but most of us know that this Carbon tax hoo haa is all bullshit. It is just another way for the government to fill their coffers and shaft the rest of us ordinary people. The world won’t end without a carbon tax and the environment won’t improve with one either. We will just live through another of these so called crisis just like we have done before. I wish all these scientists would have a good look at themselves, I mean really how many so called crisis’s have we endured in the last few years: bird flu, pig flu, global warming, obesity, etc etc. Get a grip people. You guys are making life a drag. Remember what happened to the boy who cried wolf?

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      10:22am | 21/04/11

      There is nothing wrong with having a carbon tax plan, the least we can do is do all we can to make sustainability a reality in this country and do all we can to protect our natural resources.
      I dont see why that would cost 8-12 times more than it does in europe. Surely reducing emissions is about individual action not about tax and creating a trading commodity built around carbon.

    • watty says:

      10:26am | 21/04/11

      The Brucie Hawker policy on Labor’s proposed carbon tax.???

      If it was so important to the nation and the rest of thwe worldwhy did Hawker Britton advise Gillard to drop the threat of a carbon tax before the last election?

    • Randal says:

      10:30am | 21/04/11

      Here’s two simple questions for you Ashley:

      1. How much will the government’s proposed carbon dioxide tax cost?
      2. Once implemented, by how much will the carbon dioxide tax reduce global temperatures by?

      Until these questions are answered nothing else you say holds any relevance.

    • N.Kelly says:

      11:27am | 21/04/11

      Here’s one simple question for you, Randal.

      Are global temperatures going to change ?

      If so, by how much ?

    • MarK says:

      12:53pm | 21/04/11

      I answered that a while ago Randal.

      This is my troll.

      Find your own raspberry

      Ms Kelly….I am better than you.

    • N.Kelly says:

      01:36pm | 21/04/11

      MarK never came up with an answer, Randal.

      One little question, and he instantly cowered behind fantasy and infantile gibberish. It was funny, yet sad.

      His fellow troll NicoleG couldn’t come up with any answer either.

      Surely you can do better.

    • Randal says:

      01:42pm | 21/04/11

      N.Kelly is all yours MarK!

    • MarK says:

      02:19pm | 21/04/11

      I don’t know whether to thank or curse you Randal :D

    • N.Kelly says:

      02:28pm | 21/04/11

      So you’ve got no answer either, Randal.

      You lot are dropping like flies.

    • Randal says:

      02:35pm | 21/04/11

      Hell, I am game N.Kelly and to save time let me act like Kevin Rudd, and I will ask and answer them for you!

      If what you are attempting to ask is whether I believe global average temps will change, the answer of course is yes, they always have and always will.

      Now the question you really want to ask, is man responsible for these changes??

      This question seeks to identify me as a denier you know that I am and then we can have much fun denigrating each other about whether climate change is real, despite both of us undoubtedly lacking the scientific knowledge to in any way provide an educated response to the discussion.

      Sorry to disappoint, but the truth is I have no idea as I am not a scientist, so instead I look to both the scientific community and the nation’s leaders to inform, and may I say they are doing a very poor job of it. Even with that being the case I say ok let’s say if we do take action based on the scientific research then explain to me why the action that is being proposed is the “right thing to do”, what actual affect will that action have, and what impact will have on our economy.

      Essentially is the pain worth the gain?

      So now I ask you the those key questions N.Kelly, and how you respond will determine whether you are genuinely interested in a debate around the carbon tax, or are as MarK has pointed are nothing more than a Troll with very little to actually contribute to the debate, so tell me:

      1. How much will the government’s proposed carbon dioxide tax cost?
      2. Once implemented, by how much will the carbon dioxide tax reduce global temperatures by?

      I look forward to your response.

    • NicoleG says:

      02:55pm | 21/04/11

      Well said Randal, but don’t hold your breath waiting for an answer. One or two liners are the best ‘she’ can do. Well under that aka anyway.

      May I suggest you slip in to something more comfortable N.Kelly? Like a coma perhaps…..

    • Randal says:

      03:05pm | 21/04/11

      What’s that sound I hear N.Kelly… chirp… chirp… The lack of a response says it all!

    • N.Kelly says:

      04:17pm | 21/04/11

      Still no answer, Randal ?

      Here’s the simple question again, if it’ll help.

      Are global temperatures going to change ?

      If so, by how much ?

      Don’t bother asking NicoleG for help. She hasn’t got a clue.

    • Randal says:

      04:37pm | 21/04/11

      It would seem N.Kelly that you cannot read, as I have clearly answered your question above, and your response clearly proves that MarK and NicoleG are both correct and you are nothing but a Troll.

      I give @perse her due, at least she attempts to form an intelligent argument, regardless of how flawed, and that is far in advance of what you are capable of N.Kelly.

      MarK I am sorry I interacted with your Troll, and I definitely shall leave her to you, and yes you clearly are better than her, of that there can no doubt!

    • NicoleG says:

      04:38pm | 21/04/11

      Don’t like my opinion of you NK? Simple. Improve yourself.

      Randal don’t bite. Play with ‘her’. It’s fun.

    • N.Kelly says:

      05:01pm | 21/04/11

      Of course insults from the likes of you are actually compliments, NicoleG. So thanks, but sucking up to me won’t help. You still have no answer.

      So what was this supposed answer you gave, Randal ?

      By how much again ?

    • NicoleG says:

      08:35pm | 21/04/11

      I don’t compliment weasels. See my above post Badger. It’s not fun anymore. You’ve done way better before. Next…....

    • N.Kelly says:

      09:30pm | 21/04/11

      If you’d just answered the question instead of trying to suck up to me you wouldn’t have a problem, NicoleG.

    • MarK says:

      10:41pm | 21/04/11

      Oh dear. Badger really isn’t very good at this stuff is she.

    • NicoleG says:

      03:58pm | 22/04/11

      Nope. Badger’s not really good at anything.

    • The Badger says:

      10:41am | 23/04/11

      I just love how you see badger’s everywhere.
      Your paranoia level is astonishing.

    • John says:

      11:38am | 21/04/11

      Lets point out a few things here thousands of years ago the lands of the world were connected till they splt and became different continents. There was a period were the earth went from tropical to ice age then from that ice age to tropical and to the curent seasons. So are saying that in the times of dinosaurs they caused such global warming that the earth suffered. I did not know the t rex drove a car around and they coal power plants. Wondering if there were groups of dinosaurs running around calling for a carbon tax to stop the next ice age from occuring or to stop the ice caps from melting.

      It is noticable that the climate scientist who support the carbon tax say they have data from the past to show warming but at the same time they can not explain why the earth had the ice age.

      They also can not explain the reason why thousands of years ago Australia was one of the most driest continent in the world.  Was it not these scientist who said Brisbane would be in drought and have no water but the rains have come and now they are using WA as thier argument point not and not one of the mentions how wrong they were on Brisbane.

      Also I would like to know the effect of the sun on climate as every year the sun does grow in size, yes it grows in size till billion of years time it will implode creating a black whole. So due to this growth what effects will it have. Also at this time the sun is starting is solar max cycle inturn we will have more effects on our enviroment and solar radiation and cornial holes more and adjust the earth magnetical field inturn effecting tides and the enviroment.

      In regards to the GFC the main issue here was that in the US and Europe the cost of living our strips the wages that ppl were earning. Piled on top of this were the sub prime loans. Due to the cost of living spirralling out of control with electricity, water and food prices soaring and wages staying stagnent the people started not been able to afford thier home loans and selling thier houses. As this downturn grew less people had money and less spent and all of a sudden ppl lost thier jobs, business closed inturn leading to more ppl loosing thier jobs and the markets going down and leading to the GFC.

      Note the similarities I have pointed to above occuring right now and yes Aus does have a large sub prime market that exsist but hidden by the mining boom. At the moment in Australia the cost of living has increased yet real wages have not. interest rates, food, electricity, water and other cost have all gone up beyond any income ppl recieve and ontop of that taxes are increasing. Already ppl have to pay an extra tax for Queensland and now even a larger tax if the carbon tax goes through. On average people wages go up at about 3.5 - 4% p.a but cost of living has gone up 10 - 15% out stripping it.

      Lets look at carbon tax in regards to your power. So lets say coal is taxed so you pay $50.00 extra for it to be dug up. This includes an increase in wages, transport and all other cost associated with it at minning stage.  Then when it gets to the coal distrubuter/wholesaler they add the $50.00 + $20.00 as thier cost have now increased as well due to the carban tax. This then to the power plant. Now $70.00 as been added to thier costs. They will now also add another $40.00 as thier costs have gone up as well so now the cost is $110.00. This will then be charged to you as the consumer.

      On top of all this the govt says it will force the companies to look for cleaner energy and build less polluting plants, Well guys guess who will also absorb the cost of the new plants be built. Yes the consumer. Dont believe me look at South Asutralia were the cost of power has increased because the company wants to upgrade and build thier energy network

    • Ben says:

      12:58pm | 21/04/11

      @John I suggest learning basic spelling and grammar before lecturing on politics, physics or financials!
      There is a massive difference between weather patterns and pollution impacting weather patterns. The argument is akin to sticking your head in the sand - even -if- current warming weather patterns are completely driven by external influences, surely PHYSICAL pollution like smog and acid rain are worth combatting.
      I have to say, the carbon emission scheme is not a perfect solution, but it’s at least an attempt to do something.
      Corporations are ALWAYS going to only support schemes that benefit them, and oppose violently any scheme that will affect their bottom line, it’s just good business practice so any approval or disapproval is has exactly the same value as the paper its written on.
      Desisions such as these should be based solely on reputable research and academic opinion, as long as they are based on corporate approval, there is no trusting it.

    • John says:

      01:47pm | 21/04/11

      In part I prob know more about finance then you do.

      Considering there is a large amount of information out there and even a equal amount of scientist who are not paid large amounts by govt arguing against the carbon tax and also stating that the climate change arguement is flawed. One of the biggest opponents was the former CSIRO president who was forced out of his position when he opposed the views of the govt and the doom and gloom sayers.

      Do you really think China is going to implement a carbon tax that will increase the price of thier goods and inturn making it less competitive on the global market. The US has a hard enough time of getting china value thier currency correctly.

    • Brian says:

      11:55am | 21/04/11

      This bloke advises the Labor Government? Considering where Hawker Britton have the ALP in the polls I’m surprised he even has a job.

    • TM says:

      02:10pm | 21/04/11

      Your link does not work. Try again, I’m sure you can do it.

      Just repeat after me, “I think I can, I think I can, I think I can.” The Labor way!

    • bikinis on top says:

      12:01pm | 21/04/11

      Labor will rise from the dead this easter after being crucified by the mass media .

    • Steve says:

      07:21pm | 21/04/11

      I assume you mean Punch is not the mass media! because this is a pro labor article. The people are doing the crucifying becauser they don’t like the policy. Gillard knew it was a poisin policy which is why Rudd was removed. We can only assume that Bob Browne mad his support of her government condittional upon a carbo tax. It simplt stinks without any help from mass media.

    • Ben81 says:

      12:03pm | 21/04/11

      “Taking a sensible, economically efficient way of cutting pollution through the introduction of a market mechanism to set a carbon price will create the necessary incentives for business to cut pollution and invest in cleaner forms of energy generation.”

      Well no, the tax will simply be passed on to consumers. The government doesn’t disagree, given that they will apparently ‘compensate’ a lot of them with the revenue collected, apart of course for higher income earners, (not sure exactly who yet, sure would be nice to know) simply so the government can try to sell the absolute lie that that it’s just the ‘big polluters’ who are paying.

      All to have zero impact on climate change.

      And what, may I ask, is sensible about making Australian products more expensive?  Given that it won’t do anything at all to change the climate, how is that justified and how could you possibly brush off industry and union concerns about that with useless spin and not feel a bit dirty?

    • bikinis on top says:

      12:04pm | 21/04/11

      on anzac day, Australians will celebrate the dead .
      Australians will celebrate the dead Liberals who still live in 1915!

    • MarK says:

      12:58pm | 21/04/11

      reg? Is that you reg? Makes about as much sense as reg. You two should get together. Be a hoot to read.

    • Hamish says:

      01:49pm | 21/04/11

      b.o.t., ummm, you do know that there was no Liberal Party in 1915, don’t you? Oh no, how embarrassment. And you just had to bring our national holiday which honours our war dead into it as well. What a class act. Worst. Punch. Post. Ever.

    • AdamC says:

      02:48pm | 21/04/11

      MarK and Hamish, I agree. It is comments like these that call into question the de-institutionalisation of the mentally ill.

    • Where are the moderators? says:

      02:50pm | 21/04/11

      @Bikinis on top: you are filthy garbage to desecrate a sacred tradition with your vile left wing diatribe.

    • David C says:

      12:07pm | 21/04/11

      If you keep doing the same thing dont be surprised if you keep getting the same results… When are you people going to realise you are losing the battle of convincing people if not lost it aleady
      How about you all get positive and work out a way to make alternate energy cheaper ... you wont get people on board by making fossil fuels more expensive

      and by the way a dictatorship or military rule is not the answer

    • bikinis on top says:

      12:09pm | 21/04/11

      The GFC Is like KFC.
      its not over until the fat chick sings

    • Ken says:

      12:09pm | 21/04/11

      This muppet is from Hawker Britten? Hilarious. He has the hide to write politicised garbage like this? Nothing more need be said here…

    • Geoff - Brisbane says:

      12:10pm | 21/04/11

      Did anyone pick up that the companies the author listed all have a vested interest in a carbon tax

      Merchant banks say they welcome it. Well of course, it opens up a new futures and commodities market for them to gamble in.

      BP IKEA and GE. They want a carbon tax as it will strangle local competition. Using their international connections, they will mostly avoid the tax and thus their profit will sky rocket.

    • locky says:

      12:39pm | 21/04/11

      Can someone explain to me why it’s getting hotter on mars for the last 30 years.Pretty much the same as the earth .Maybe just maybe the SUNhas a lot to do with our temp.

    • Iain says:

      01:37pm | 21/04/11

      Can someone explain to me why hundreds of researchers on Earth (esp at NASA) with satellites observing the sun wouldn’t have seen changes in the sun’s output?

      And you’ll probably get a much better explanation of the “warming trend” on Mars sometime after its actually shown that there is one ...

    • Ben says:

      12:52pm | 21/04/11

      Ahahahahahaha! A Labor party PR company writing an op-ed piece on a failing Labor strategy…... Brilliantly conceived.

    • Dave Charlesworth says:

      01:16pm | 21/04/11

      Forget this argument period (if there actually is one!!)

      This is purely about a broke, inept, desperate Government lead by the Greens looking out purely for themselves to reap in MONEY.

      The whole Global Warming rubbish is their best guess at introducing a great big new tax!!

      Forget that it will cripple our economy and eventually our way of life!!!

    • Jeremy C Browne says:

      01:21pm | 21/04/11

      Of course the alternative energy companies and big banks want a carbon tax.  They are going to rake in the money like never before, not to mention the UN as well.
      I would love to know Ashley, why you are happy to breathe CO2 from the air and drink CO2 in beer???  Don’t you know that pollution is bad for you?  Oddly, Gillard’s office doesn’t describe CO2 as pollution!

    • joe says:

      01:43pm | 21/04/11

      Might be a little off topic but while Kevin Rudd failed spectacularly in Copenhagen, I understand that he still managed to sign Australia up for millions of our tax dollars to to some sort of climate change agreement.
      Can anyone tell me, 1. if this is correct, 2. if true, how much money and 3. what it was spent on?

    • Dallas Beaufort says:

      01:53pm | 21/04/11

      Challenge to those who want a tax, co2 or what ever you call it. Hears the deal, for every extra cent which the private sector has to spend the public sector will have to trim 2 cents delivering a smaller government and less taxes overall.

    • Alistair says:

      01:54pm | 21/04/11

      Australia… the New Whinging Pom. The Carbon tax will have a negligible impact, even less than the transition to a GST. If you can’t afford the $10 a week extra then thats not Climate Changes problem, it’s not the Carbon Taxes problem it’s your Bosses problem, he’s not paying you enough. Pack of whingers, like that clown with the $1400 electricity bill crying like a stuck pig and that the Government and the Taxpayer owe him something for using 66Kwatts of energy per day! 20 years from now he’ll be telling his grandchildren how tough he did it during the Great GFC.

    • MarK says:

      02:15pm | 21/04/11

      Hush child. The adults are talking.

    • Mikko says:

      02:05pm | 21/04/11

      First time I’ve seen Chicken Little used as a metaphor for introducing a tax on the air we breathe rather than representing the shrill alarmist sqwarking that CO2 is causing climate change. Even if it is, rather than the sun, cyclical changes in the Earth’s orbit and other natural forces, a puny carbon tax won’t stop it.

    • Col. of Blackburn says:

      02:10pm | 21/04/11

      The first UNIPCC report was in 1990, it is now 2011, 21 years later. Perhaps Percy Phone or Acotrel can enlighten us all on how many of their ‘Scientific Predictions’ have come to pass? Poor old Dr. Tim seems to be a bit behind the 8 ball? Sorry Tim, but i would rather pick out my Tattslotto numbers all by myself if you don’t mind! wink

    • Sony B Goode says:

      02:58pm | 21/04/11

      ie in other words they will support it if the tax has no impact on business or exports. which is impossible…

    • TM says:

      03:59pm | 21/04/11

      Well done, Ashley! Next you’ll have to master the ‘Reply’ function.

      I’m rooting for you or conspiring to root Labor? It’s over, Labor are plotting to bring down Gillard. Been hearing the chatter for five days now. You know that if Gillard goes so will the tax.

      That brings me to the next point. The favourite in the scramble is a global warming sceptic who stayed out of the push for this tax. Not exactly a movie star but retains the old Labor values that have been lost in this new Labor.

      The light is clear under the Great Southern Cross!

    • MarK says:

      04:57pm | 21/04/11

      Are you truly that devoid of reason as to suggest that this letter is a support of your position?

      ICB

      While we have you here Ahley pray tell.

      You talk about pollution a lot in your article.

      Is it your contention that CO2 is a pollutant?

      Also Ashley since you are close to coal face and have all this really good spi…errr information to hand

      What effect on the worlds temperature will this tax have? Like how much cooler will it be?

      What will this tax cost the Australian economy?

    • Seth Brundle says:

      02:46pm | 21/04/11

      Unless ALL of the tax raised goes towards alternative energy research, I have trouble believing in all of this.  I mean seriously, if we are heading towards a global calamity then shouldn’t alternative energy sources become the #1 priority of governments everywhere?  But this does not seem to be happening.
      I would support the carbon tax if all of the money went towards cheaper, cleaner energy research.  But failing that, I see it as just another BS tax that will serve no purpose other than to reduce the quality of life for the majority of average citizens to benefit the wealthy minority.

    • bleD says:

      10:38pm | 21/04/11

      I couldn’t agree more. If all the tax wnet into renewable energy supplies it would make some sense. And if the NBN were scapped in favour of putting solar panels on everybody’s roof it would make even more sense.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      02:48pm | 21/04/11

      @joe: The 3rd world was promised $30b by 2012 and $100b by 2020 by developing nations. Can’t find source for Australia’s contribution, but it’s in the billions. You can see why Gillard needs funds urgently, not content with forcing very expensive CO2 reduction programs on the population (burning roofs, endless solar subsidies, cash for clunkers, fridge buybacks: all with zero positive economic benefit) by squandering dozens of billions more, we now have to pay for the 3rd world to not produce any gaseous plant food too. Meanwhile behemoths like GE have set themselves up to make fortunes by helping other business transition to this high cost world of green-tape.

    • Joe says:

      07:35pm | 22/04/11

      Thanks for the reply Sony.
      Anyone else able to throw more light on how much Rudd committed Australia to paying into a UN black hole. Also why the agreement, the amount committed and what is has been spent on is generally not known to the Australian public.

    • Mikko says:

      03:21pm | 21/04/11

      Kind of funny how quickly pers, CJ and the other repetitive warm-mongers steered clear of yesterday’s global warming challenge isn’t it? Apart from a bit of mud slinging they had nothing to offer in the way of “the science is settled, the evidence is in” . No one even came close.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      09:06pm | 21/04/11

      Mikko, AGW is far too serious an issue to play puerile games about.  Your so-called “challenge” is just another denialist diversion, designed to reinforce the delusion that the Earth isn’t warming due to anthropogenic activity.

      Others may want to play with you, but I personally couldn’t be bothered trying to correct wilful ignorance.

    • Jane says:

      04:01pm | 21/04/11

      Is it you that advises Gillard and her team to say “won’t rule in, won’t rule out” “having discussions as we speak” “wait until we have an inquiry” “no decision has been made”“ongoing dialogue” “can’t comment until we have an investigation” Year of delivery? mmmmmm
      They can’t give a straight answer to anything. You can bet your last dollar next time you see one of them in a press conference you will get one of the above as an answer. You would think they have just come into power, not in their second term.

    • Knemon says:

      06:24pm | 21/04/11

      ...meanwhile back at the farm, the conservatives are still yet to pull their collective heads from the sand pit, they’re in for a shock when they do. By then the debate will have finished, we will have a carbon tax and life will go on as normal…albeit, moving forward and heading in the right direction. The 1st of July 2012 can’t come quick enough.

    • jam says:

      06:33pm | 21/04/11

      There’s no doubt that shock jocks and TONY RABBIT have gone on a scare campaign and most of the people have been sucked in by these lies and untruths put forward by the right wing of Australia who is sponsored by the oil and coal industries. Its about time that the media stopped publishing stories by these deniers like andrew bolt and tony rabbitt. Only when the deniers opinions are suppressed will real scientists be able to put forward the true facts rather than being shouted down by deniers as the science has been settled for years now. Unless this tax is impelmented we’ll see more floods like in brisbane, more cyclones, more bushfires like the one that burnt in canberra in 2004 and in victoria in 2008. Sea levels are already rising alarmingly and it won’t be long before many countries are flooded and totally unihabitable and we will see more and more refugees fleeing from countries where climate change has caused wars and famine.

      We have one chance. The deniers MUST be silenced before they BRAINWASH people into thinking that climate change is NOT real!

    • Sony B Goode says:

      07:36pm | 21/04/11

      another wannabe pol pot.

    • Kelly says:

      06:34am | 22/04/11

      Another nutjob from Crikey no doubt.

    • LC says:

      08:41pm | 22/04/11

      Would you like the government to censor YOU on other issues you feel strongly about?

      If not, be careful for what you wish for. You allow the government to censor a group of people because they disagree with your views and you give them the precedent required to do just that to you.

      Free speech is a two way street. If you support free speech for yourself then you MUST support it for EVERYONE, up to and including worst enemy.

      And it’s funny you mentioned the floods in Brisbane, because not only where there floods of the same scale during the 1890s (nearly 100 years before AGW became an issue), but also that the climate models that you people rely so much on said Brisbane would be out of water by last year. Yep, the science sure is settled…

    • Ryan says:

      01:00am | 23/04/11

      @jam: yet you continue to deny the facts that there is still zero evidence people are in fact causing any climate change. You keep spouting on that the earth is flat though, I am sure you will get some believers.

    • Bikinis On Top says:

      07:50pm | 21/04/11

      Dear Punch Drunks,
      Have you ever noticed that there are no Liberal National trolls, comments and interpersonal attacks on the Punch website after dark??
      They must all go to bed as soon as night falls.
      They must be saving electricity or they are scared of the dark!

    • MarK says:

      09:57pm | 21/04/11

      I really like the coalition.

      I really think you are quite possibly the 2nd most pointless poster on this site.

      Basically what I am saying is you are wrong again and I am so much better than you it is not funny.

      When I think about me I touch myself….I don’t want anybody else…no no no no.

      BOOGIE!!

    • bananabender says:

      09:56pm | 21/04/11

      Not one member of the ALP front bench has ever ran so much as hot dog stand let alone major corporation.

      The only companies that support the carbon tax are those that stand to make money from it.

      The ALP morons think that because steel is $800/tonne that Bluescope makes $800 profit. In fact a $6/tonne tonne carbon tax will reduce Bluescope’s net profit by a massive 40%.

    • Harquebus says:

      09:52am | 22/04/11

      If I was stupid enough to install that Flash rubbish, I could watch the video but, I ain’t that stupid.

    • LC says:

      08:29pm | 22/04/11

      Wait wait wait…you accuse people against the tax of saying the sky is falling, only to literally say the sky will fall if the tax is not implemented.

      We oppose the carbon tax because:
      - It’ll drive up the cost of living across the board; petrol, groceries, electricity and a lot more everyday items will all go up, and the costs of living is already so high that it’s driving some families onto the streets and into crime. The government should aim to lower the cost of living, not increase it.
      - Without some kind of carbon tariff, the cost of imported products will remain the same, while locally made ones will be more expensive, potentially reducing business for our local manufacturing industry.
      - It won’t do a damn thing to help the environment. Companies will simply pass any increase in costs to their consumers and go about business as usual.
      - If the goal of the tax is to bring about change through price rises, how does effectively giving back the taxes to lower income earners encourage them to change their ways?

      If you want a market based solution, why not simply give tax breaks to environmentally friendly technologies (such as wind power, fuel efficient cars etc)?

    • aussie says:

      04:30pm | 23/04/11

      Bah bring on the tax already! It’ll keep the poor bogans off the streets allowing us better people room to move.

    • I Pocock says:

      11:30am | 25/04/11

      Communism. That is what this tax is. It is a transfer of wealth in this nation. The tax will punish the true workers of this country, which are the working Australian that pay PAYG tax. The companies maybe able to cope with the tax as they will pass the cost on. The people rorting the on welfare system will just benefit. 
      We are breeding a nation of lazy people that want everything given to them.

 

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