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The R18+ classification is not about children

Ron Curry

by Ron Curry

19 Mar 05:57am

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Filed under: Classification Board, Gaming, R18

103 comments

Last week the Australia Christian Lobby issued a media release suggesting that the video games industry was akin to the tobacco industry questioning the link between smoking and lung cancer, because we have questioned the validity of research conducted by Professor Craig Anderson.

These kids won't be playing R18+ games. Picture: AFP

Today, Anderson will present at a conference in Sydney that has been organised by lobby group Young Media Australia and the timing of the event in light of the public consultation for an R18+ classification for games and the internet filtering discussion is not lost. This seemed to be as good a time as any to question the core thesis of those opposing an R18+ classification for computer and video games.

The Australian Christian Lobby has clearly got the knack of creating good spin. It doesn’t get more controversial than accusing our industry of being akin to the tobacco industry; it also doesn’t get more counterproductive. It’s worth recapping the basic arguments of the ACL and the other organisations such as Young Media Australia.

The main argument is that children should be protected from content that is inappropriate and potentially damaging. No dispute from us on this point. Consistent classification across all forms of media will, we believe, better protect young people.

There is no doubt that there is a huge amount of education needed about media classification for parents, retailers, their staff, and throughout the community in general, and this is where we believe energy would be better directed.

I understand that the ACL and YMA want the world to be a better place - so do I. I’m also a parent and want my children to grow up in a country that has less violence, and where children are less burdened by themes and content that should only ever be heard or seen by adults.

The front page of the local tabloid press during the Haiti disaster was content wholly unsuitable for most of the young people in my family, so too were the ABC radio reports of the unspeakable things done to a young girl recently in Bundaberg, Queensland. But I’m a conscious parent, and my wife and I manage the consumption of media in our home.

Media content exists across a long continuum. It starts at one end with the reporting of the awful natural and manmade events that happen in our world, and ends in created content that would be not suitable for any classification and contains themes that would very rightly never be admitted legally into Australia.

It’s the middle area where there is greatest contention and it’s here where we believe the ACL is misguided in their campaign to discredit our industry.

The fact is that the R18+ classification discussion is not about children, it’s about adults and their right to access material that has been developed for them. Australia exists within a global social and economic economy and there is now a substantial amount of content available that carries mature themes, with some of this content containing substantial sexual themes and/or violence.

These themes are also included in film, television (has anyone watched Law and Order or Underbelly recently?), magazines and books, and also in video games. The fact is, to try and tackle the availability of high level content across all these mediums is a big, hairy dragon and one that the ACL and YMA probably recognise they can’t slay.

So the focus for the moment stays on maligning our industry. This brings us back to Professor Anderson and his argument that video games are different from these other forms of media because the interactive nature of video games creates a heightened response from the player. 

In a blog post on our website last year, I queried Anderson’s research and highlighted that his General Affective Aggression Model has been criticised by some academics because they believe that he has not demonstrated the model with his empirical research (that is, the evidence from his research does not support the basic foundations of his model).

It’s also worth noting that Professors Christopher J. Ferguson and John Kilburn from Texas A&M International University also refuted and criticised Anderson’s research and this was published ironically in the same academic journal.

We’re not picking on Professor Anderson and welcomed his comments on this week’s 7.30 report on the ABC where he recommended better labeling for high level content.

The problem is that Young Media Australia, and in turn the now infamous South Australian Attorney-General Michael Atkinson, have clung to this one piece of research to argue that video games should be treated differently when it comes to classification. We disagree.

Finally, Jim Wallace Managing Director of the ACL has inevitably made a grab for the high moral ground suggesting in the media release that “commercial interests obviously have a stake in presenting the view that the link between video games and aggression does not exist”. It’s a simplistic view.  Christian groups equal ‘community-minded and good’. Industry groups equal ‘self-interested and bad’.

Ironically classification is far from simplistic, it’s a complex issue made even more challenging in an ever shifting technology environment and our industry works very hard with a wide range of Government departments, community groups, academics and retailers to best ensure that our classification system works.

The debate is also made unnecessarily confusing because of accusations such as the tobacco industry one.  If the ACL are genuinely interested in achieving a better outcome in terms of classification, they would see that our objectives –in regards to protecting young people at least, aren’t so different.

The Interactive Games and Entertainment Industry is always interested in meeting and better understanding the position of a wide range of stakeholders and community organisations, and as such, our door is always open. We’ll even promise not to smoke.

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103 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Me says:

      09:00am | 19/03/10

      Atkinson might be turfed out tomorrow with the South Australian Labor Government. If that happens, hopefully he Liberal counterpart has the sense to come to the table.

      Reply

    • Hawk says:

      09:10am | 19/03/10

      Our National Classification Code states that classification decisions are to give effect, as far as possible, to a number of principles. One of which is that adults should be able to read, hear and see what they want. This however sometimes conflicts with the other principles, such as minors should be protected from material likely to harm or disturb them.

      Despite these conflicts an R18+ for film has been deemed sufficient to balance the conflicting principles within the code. There is no reason that an R18+ for computer games could not also achieve this balance.

      Reply

    • SLF says:

      09:17am | 19/03/10

      Gaming needs R18 classification for content which is not appropriate in other classifications. GTA etc should really be R18 as should many others and as with any form of advice, the labelling should make it clear for parents that this is unsuitable for minors.

      However, parents also need to be accountable for understanting the media. I have played games since I got my c64 back in about 1984 and, as many of my generation do, have a couple of consoles and a huge breadth of games.

      As a parent howerver I know it is my responsibility to ensure that my little boys do not see, find or play any of the games that are not suitable for them until they are of an appropriate age. I dont even play inappropriate games when they are awake.

      Can they play or will they be exposed to Modern Warfare 2 or GTA? Of course they will not be, can they have a go at Wii sports, hotwheels racing or Fifa 10, of course they can.

      As for the link between gaming and aggression, is there one? Possibly in some people there is, in so much as heavy metal will turn some people into shool shooters. However I would imagine the problem is always there and the media has sparked something which would have happened any way as opposed to having caused it.

      From my own experience I have not yet become inclined to carjack, rampage through the streets of Liberty City undertaking drug deal, murders and robberies…. neither have I wandered through an airport willfully launching grenades at innocent bystanders…...but then maybe I am fortunate to be well adjuested and with parents who when I grew up playing games made sure I only had access to those appropriate for me…kind of the same as they did with TV and movies.

      Reply

    • Margaret Gray says:

      09:22am | 19/03/10

      “...The fact is that the R18+ classification discussion is not about children, it’s about adults and their right to access material that has been developed for them…”

      Rubbish.  Are you that naive to think that under 18’s won’t get access to this material?

      15-year old boys are quite capable of heinous acts of violence; is this a ‘skill’ taught at school?

      “...I’m also a parent and want my children to grow up in a country that has less violence…”

      Then why do you, as a parent and allegedly responsible adult, feel the need to gratify yourself through the use of virtual violence?  Does it empower you?  Does slaughtering others sustain your ego?

      Are you suggesting that young adult males, hyped up on these simulated realism and violence-filled video games, who then go out and ‘re-enact’ and ‘practice’ on others are not on the increase in our cities?

      I don’t need peer-reviewed research to disprove your fundamentalist belief, just ask the police.

      “...The Interactive Games and Entertainment Industry is always interested in meeting and better understanding the position of a wide range of stakeholders and community organisations…”

      What a pathetic PR statement and disingenous in the extreme.

      Reply

    • Eric says:

      09:49am | 19/03/10

      Under-18s already get access to this material; they just download it and don’t bother paying for it.

      As to your ridiculous claims that video games lead to real violence, it’s absurd on its face. A kid sitting at home in front of the computer is less likely to commit acts of violence than a group of bored kids running around on the streets.

    • Phil says:

      10:33am | 19/03/10

      @Margaret:

      “Are you that naive to think that under 18’s won’t get access to this material?”

      They have access to them now, courtesy of our lack of an 18+ classification.  There are numerous games which have been classified as 15+ which in the rest of the world are only available to adults. An 18+ Classification for games will actually prevent minors from accessing games which aren’t suitable for them.

      “15-year old boys are quite capable of heinous acts of violence; is this a ‘skill’ taught at school?”

      Kids learn from their environment, including school and home life.  Kids who are bullied at school when they are young often become bullies when they are older. Trying to pin a capacity for violence on video games is rather a stretch, don’t you think?  Kids are exposed to far worse material on the evening news, and to their credit, have the ability to discern the difference between what’s real (the news) and what’s not (video games).

      “Does slaughtering others sustain your ego?”

      Does leaving a drive by comments on blog posts with which you disagree sustain your ego? If I prefer to spend part of my leisure time re-enacting battles from WW2 via a video game, that’s my choice. At no time when I’m playing am I under the impression that the pixels on the screen are anything other than a series of ones and zeros in a computer simulation. I find this fun, challenging, and relaxing, the same way that others might enjoy reading about the crusades or watching scary movies.

      “I don’t need peer-reviewed research to disprove your fundamentalist belief, just ask the police.”

      Actually, as another commenter has mentioned, there is a statistical correlation between increasing video game sales and a decrease in youth violence.

      You may not like video games, but as a 40 year old father of 2, I have spent my life with them, and I can assure you that this classification change is necessary precisely in order to ensure that under 18s don’t have access to the kinds of adult themed games which they can now legally purchase.

    • Scott Glennon says:

      10:34am | 19/03/10

      @Margaret,

      You are quick to point the finger at boys and adult males, I suspect you are either sexist or have an ill-behaved son of your own. Your blame game doesn’t fool me Margaret. If your child is misbehaved,  your job is to discipline him/her.
      15 year old boys and girls can easily obtain more harmful products from Australian operated, over 18 retail outlets, such as booze. And I put forward to you that liquored up 15 year old male/female’s, unaware of their limits are not only a “real threat,” but are more likely to be violent when peer pressured. For example, our annual fortnight of hell Schoolies.

      “Then why do you, as a parent and allegedly responsible adult, feel the need to gratify yourself through the use of virtual violence?” I don’t, however I’d like the choice to.

      “Does it empower you?” I’m sure it would if I were good at video games.

      “Does slaughtering others sustain your ego?” In a fictional environment like laser skirmish yes; so quite possibly.

      Marg, I suspect you don’t like any video games, but you should like the choice to purchase products with an R18+.

    • Seano says:

      11:11am | 19/03/10

      “I don’t need peer-reviewed research to disprove your fundamentalist belief, just ask the police.”

      Who needs science when we’ve got opinion power?

    • Grumbles says:

      01:03pm | 19/03/10

      Margaret, the biggest problem with your argument is that these examples (car jacking, killing civilians in an airport) are currently available to 15 yr olds and they shouldn’t be. Obviously these would be rated R18+ but since no such classification exists they are given the 15+ rating. Parents need to look after their kids, we can help parents by better informing them eg GTA being R18+ says my 13 or 14 yr old should be nowhere near this. To trully protect the children we need to increase the rating on some games to make them only available for purchase to adults with ID.

    • Cly says:

      01:15pm | 19/03/10

      You obviously do not comprehend the importance of peer-review across the board.

    • wolf says:

      01:21pm | 19/03/10

      If Margaret isn’t some of Zeta’s finest work then I am afraid, very afraid.

      On the off chance she is real I have just donated $50 to encyclopedia dramatica so she can focus her outrage there and leave the rest of us alone.

    • Heather says:

      01:32pm | 19/03/10

      Since I have (so far) 3 boys aged 15 and up, yes, they are capable of heinous acts of violence. They were also capable of these when they were 5. And 7. And 10. And 2. It is and was my job to teach them not to be liitle PITA’s who would grab a stick and poke each other’s eyes out given half a chance. You leave ANY children alone to themselves without some social training and they will act violently. As parents, it’s our job to model social behaviour, not ban stuff that ADULTS (not children) can play, in an attempt to create a nanny state that gives us a false sense of security.

      I wonder what the “excuse” was when Lord of The Flies was written. There were no video consoles back then.

      I don’t play many violent games (GTA is not a game I enjoy), but that’s my choice, as an adult, to make. Yet—despite the fact that I won’t play games that are that violent—I defend the 18+ classification so that silly adults who *don’t* understand game content (and there are many!!) will not think that games like GTA are actually “okay” for 15 year olds to play. Slap an 18+ label on the more violent games and, finally, many parents will “get it.”

    • Zeta says:

      02:25pm | 19/03/10

      @ wolf - nah I’m more nuanced.

    • person says:

      04:34pm | 19/03/10

      >Then why do you, as a parent and allegedly responsible adult, feel the need to gratify yourself through the use of virtual violence?  Does it empower you?  Does slaughtering others sustain your ego?

      I like playing video games and it is my right as an adult to do so.  There are no children in my home nor any that have access to it.

      I’m female by the way.  Employed, professional, taxpayer.  No criminal record, no desire to beat up or murder anyone.

    • LC says:

      12:02am | 13/05/10

      “Rubbish.  Are you that naive to think that under 18’s won’t get access to this material?”
      They can already. They can buy what should be R18 rated games that are squeezed into MA15+ category and sold legally through shops or they can download them illegally. Either way, that’s a parenting issue. The whole move to get R18 games is to make it harder to get the games. You’ll give the classification board more leeway in choosing ratings for games (ie game x is suitable for teenagers and up, but game y is only suitable for adults), it makes life easier for parents who KNOW if something’s R18 it’s not for kiddies, it would reduce demand on the criminals pirating the games, meaning less sources to illegally download games and other media from given time, and it would be a criminal offense to supply the games to minors.

    • LC says:

      10:53am | 04/08/11

      “I don’t need peer-reviewed research to disprove your fundamentalist belief, just ask the police.”

      No of course you don’t.

      The arguements against R18 are based wholly on fearmongering, hysteria, anecdotes, personal attacks against your opponents, strawman arguements and (to a lesser extent)  half-researched claims sensationalist tabloid media put out to sell to sheep like you. Not on tangible, testable, emperical evidence.

    • Hawk says:

      09:34am | 19/03/10

      @Margaret

      “Are you suggesting that young adult males, hyped up on these simulated realism and violence-filled video games, who then go out and ‘re-enact’ and ‘practice’ on others are not on the increase in our cities?”

      http://bit.ly/d91WeB

      There is a graph within this paper that shows a decrease in Violent Youth Offenders in the USA despite the increase in game sales.

      Reply

    • Margaret Gray says:

      11:50am | 19/03/10

      Since when have the numbers got anything to do with escalation in type or intensity of violent crime?

      There is a huge difference.

    • Daniel Scotton says:

      01:08pm | 19/03/10

      @Margaret Gray - I just did a little research of my own, and discovered that a number of violent things have happened BEFORE evil, nasty video games were even invented.  The Crusades, World Wars, medieval torture, civil wars, gangsters, rapists, serial killers, witch-hunts, cannibals, some dude called Hitler, bullies, people being mean in general, etc, etc, have all happened BEFORE Grand Theft Auto apparently invented violence.

      Sure, some of that stuff still happens today, but I’d go as far to say that a lot of those things above are a lot less prevalent now than they were before video games.  Where is your logic to explain that?

    • Trent says:

      09:49am | 19/03/10

      @Margaret Gray:

      Your hostile and reactionary post is not only rude it also highlights the arguments in the original post.

      Yes, underage children are going to get access to R18+ games - just as they are accessing games which are Refused Classification right now.  Censorship is no substitute for parents observing what their children are doing.  This debate is about adults being denied access to games they choose to play.

      Despite your rabid protestations and rejection of peer reviewed evidence, there is no data to support increased violence amongst teenagers or otherwise.  So, yes, that is what we are suggesting.  You can say black is white if you want, but don’t try and tell me your opinion is worth more than peer reviewed evidence.

      Finally, people don’t play games to boost ego or glorify in slaughter. They are games - they play them to relax. Maybe you should try it.

      Reply

    • Scott Glennon says:

      09:50am | 19/03/10

      It is a disgrace that we don’t have an R18+ rating already and that there are groups standing in the way of one being implimented.
      What kind of backward organisations lobby against fitcional media in the form of video games being sold to Australian adults, yet our government already distributes and takes a keen cut of more life threatening products like tobacco? (Of which under 18’s have and will continue to obtain illegally)
      If you don’t want your child to purchase an 18+ video game, then don’t let them or simply don’t have children if the job is too hard. It is your obligation to parent your child, not our Governments. And I take offense to the lack of choice I have to obtain adult gaming media within my own country as should all adult Australians.

      Reply

    • Tim Martain says:

      09:56am | 19/03/10

      Margaret Gray, nobody is suggesting that under-18s won’t get access to this sort of material. You’re quite right, I’m sure it will still happen. Just like under-18s still manage to get their hands on cigarettes, alcohol and pornography.

      But the problem is that that is happening now, anyway. The lack of an R18 rating hasn’t prevented that from happening. All it has ensured is that any copies of these games currently in circulation in Australia DO NOT have any classification information attached to them for parents to scrutinise.

      At least if they were classified R18, they would be visible on shelves for parents to be aware of, and they would bear detailed classification information that would help parents discern what their children should and shouldn’t exposed to. It’s a simple matter of providing more information for people to make their own informed decisions. Banning these games (as is now effectively the case) hasn’t weeded them out of our society, it has only reduced the amount of information concerned parents have access to in relation to them.

      And again, Curry isn’t advocating allowing children to have access to such games - quite the opposite. The argument is that they are restricted to adult users, only.

      Reply

    • LP says:

      09:58am | 19/03/10

      “What a pathetic PR statement and disingenous in the extreme.” - Margaret Gray, 19/3/10

      Firstly, where has this obsession with using the word disingenous come from? Mad members of the public who like to wade into these debates seem to have recently made it their new buzz word. I’m pretty sure most of them don’t know what it means, either, based upon their use of it.

      That aside, why is the comment you are referring to pathetic and/or disingenous? I’m pretty sure the games industry truly is interested in understanding the position of the community, as they are the ones who will buy the games and there isn’t much point making them if the community as a whole think they are abhorrent. Luckily, most sensible people understand that the current classification system will work just fine for computer games, as it does for other media, and as such the position of much of the community is in agreement with the games industry on this issue.

      “Are you suggesting that young adult males, hyped up on these simulated realism and violence-filled video games, who then go out and ‘re-enact’ and ‘practice’ on others are not on the increase in our cities?”

      So there are currently roving bands of hyped up 14 year olds out to rape and pillage after playing a few rounds of Halo, are there? I look forward to you pointing me towards any research, evidence or even a photo you took while peering out of your window to support this. If you aren’t able to do so, perhaps you should consdier that, just maybe, your point is rubbish?

      Reply

    • Margaret Gray says:

      10:33am | 19/03/10

      “…I look forward to you pointing me towards any research, evidence or even a photo you took while peering out of your window to support this…”

      Here you go:

      • Assaults continue to represent the majority of recorded violent crimes. The overall trend since 1996 has been upward, with an increase of 55 percent between 1996 and 2007.

      • The trend in sexual assault has also followed a general increase. The highest numbers of victims of sexual assault and of assault were recorded in 2007.

      Australian crime facts & figures: 2008
      http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/E/4/0/{E4031E6F-031D-415C-B544-8CE865A3CA0C}facts_and_figures_2008.pdf

    • Matthew says:

      10:54am | 19/03/10

      Margaret:
      Exactly where in that document does it link the increase of Assaults and Sexual Assaults to violence in video games? You appear to be using unrelated facts to prove your point.

    • Margaret Gray says:

      11:45am | 19/03/10

      Matthew

      How do you know?

      Can you tell me if it is part of police booking procedure to ask the alleged perpetrator what the motivation for their crime was?

      If the question was not asked you have no argument?

    • LP says:

      12:10pm | 19/03/10

      @Margaret Gray:

      “Matthew

      How do you know?

      Can you tell me if it is part of police booking procedure to ask the alleged perpetrator what the motivation for their crime was?

      If the question was not asked you have no argument?”

      Actually, it is asked by the Police in most cases, if the Defendant wants to give an interview at the time of arrest. Most don’t want to give an interview, so to be fair you have sort of made a good point by default.

      The cause or motivation behind the offending is most certainly looked at in some depth by the Court in sentencing, however, which for more serious offences includes a report prepared by a court appointed psychologist examining the issue in some depth.

      I’m not aware of any matter to date where the reason for the Defendant’s crime spree was found to be too much time on the Playstation. Have you unearthed some groundbreaking new evidence to the contrary?

    • Peta says:

      12:29pm | 19/03/10

      Margaret:

      No they don’t ask criminals about the motivation of their crimes. Instead, hundreds of research papers and meta analyses have been conducted examining the effect of violent video games (and other social elements) on aggression.

      Do you know what they found? There’s no link. There are only a few researchers that found the opposite conclusion, and guess what - they’re all mates! They’ve also all been discredited for skewing results to match their own moralistic agenda - just like you are, right now! (It seems to be a common theme with people of your ilk - I wonder if you’re a young earth creationist too)

      It’s been proven that there is no link between aggression and violent video games.

      As for an ‘increase in sexual assault’, this actually instead means an increase in the *reporting* of sexual assault. For many years, religion had forced a shameful stigma on a sexually assaulted woman - as that stigma has been fought against, the reporting and prosecution of these crimes has risen… Funny that.

      As for an increase in assaults; there are so very many environmental factors that are attributable to that. How about we start with increased social disunity and resulting isolation? Lack of close communities? Social isolation because of decreased family values? All of these elements are attributable to increased aggression and assault (which has been proven with evidence as opposed to your sweeping claims.)

      How about you do some research before making silly moralistic arguments.

    • Trev M says:

      10:12am | 19/03/10

      Last time I checked you could buy smokes if you were over 18!

      Reply

    • Grant says:

      10:15am | 19/03/10

      @ Margaret

      Wow, just wow…  I dispute everything you have said in your post, with evidence.

      Studies testing the link between habitual violent video game exposure and aggression indicate that the correlation between all types of media and interactive media, and violence in society simply cannot be just attributed to one factor such as violent media.

      The issue of violence and society can be more accurately attributed to multiple factors in a persons environment, including socio-economical status, parenting, family dysfunction and education.

      All children and young adults bring with them a collective life experience, both positive and negative, shaped by the environment of family, school, peers, community, and culture.

      Out of that collective experience come values, prejudices, biases, emotions, and children and young adults responses to stress and authority is affected by an entire range of experiences and influences.

      Stating that one source such as computer games can account for a lifetime of conditioning isn’t well argued.

      In Australia as reported by the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) and the Australian Institute of Criminology (AIC) most crimes in Australia are on the decrease. ‘Australian crime: facts & figures 2008’.

      The United Nations also published ‘Criminal Victimisation, an International Perspective’ which details a decline in crime in all Western nations including Australia.

      - Jenkins, H. (2003).“Video Game Virtue.”Technology Review Online - Jones, G. (2003). Killing Monsters:Why Children Need Fantasy, Superheroes, and Make-Believe Violence.New York: Basic.
      - Buckingham,D. (2005).“The Media Literacy of Children and Young People:A Review of the Literature.” London: Centre for the Study of Children Youth and Media Institute of Education, University of London

      Reply

    • Margaret Gray says:

      10:30am | 19/03/10

      Grant

      “...In Australia as reported by the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) and the Australian Institute of Criminology (AIC) most crimes in Australia are on the decrease…”

      Wrong.

      From your own ‘source’: 
      • Assaults continue to represent the majority of recorded violent crimes. The overall trend since 1996 has been upward, with an increase of 55 percent between 1996 and 2007.

      • The trend in sexual assault has also followed a general increase. The highest numbers of victims of sexual assault and of assault were recorded in 2007.

      These are the relevant crimes….and lets not even begin to discuss the number of these types of crimes that go unreported.

      Why are young men attracted to such violent fantasy role-playing?

      Is the ability to socially integrate that much of a challenge?

    • Peta says:

      11:04am | 19/03/10

      “Margaret Gray: Why are young men attracted to such violent fantasy role-playing? Is the ability to socially integrate that much of a challenge?”

      You really are a vapid sexist, aren’t you Margaret? You have absolutely no interest in evidence or facts - only your own opinion.

      I’m a young female that enjoys playing video games (including violent video games) while balancing that with full time job, community volunteer work, social events with friends and dealing with day to day life.

      You have such a pathetically limited perspective that you cannot even comprehend what gaming is.

      68% of the Australian population play video games. That’s the majority of people in this country. The fact that 68% of our population aren’t consistently on their couches socially isolated suggests that you are wrong about your social integration comment.

      Violent fantasy role playing has the same attraction as watching a horror movie, or any of the assortment of Law and Orders on television. It grants someone a harmless perspective into a world they hopefully never have to experience directly.

      Just because you were apparently born without the natural human curiosity of non-experienced social elements - doesn’t mean no one else is.

      Your argument has no basis in fact. It’s all crap Margaret. Give up - you have nothing.

    • Phil says:

      11:04am | 19/03/10

      Actually Margaret, if you account for the increase in population between 1996 and 2007, the overall increases are statistically very minor, and the percentage of under-reporting now is certainly less than it would have been in 1996.  In addition if you specifically have a look at the data for juveniles, the rate of juvenile offenders has decreased since 1996.

    • AliceC says:

      11:11am | 19/03/10

      @ Margaret

      You may quote random stats from the ABS, but this in no way proves that the increase is directly related to the use of video games.

      If you actually read the article, you would understand that this issue is about adults having the option to buy video games of a rating of 18+ if they choose. I have no interest in these games, but if my husband needs to play a video game to wind down after work (and I do notice he is more relaxed after playing a few games), then what he plays should be his decision and his only.

      There are plenty of things people enjoy I will never understand, such as believing in God, racing cars or jumping out of planes, but as adults we deserve the right to choose what we want to do.

    • Trent says:

      11:16am | 19/03/10

      @ Margaret again.

      Thanks for the reference but who said that’s got anything to do with videogames?  We’ve already seen one reference refuting your assertion.

      I have to take exception with your blatant stereotypes of video games and now role-playing games.  All games are not nerds or malcontents just like all people called Margaret are not narrow-minded, right-wing bigots.

    • Adam says:

      11:40am | 19/03/10

      @Margaret Gray says

      Margaret, as previously asked:- where in these documents does the author link any trend in violent crime figures with video games? If you argue that its the games causing the violence provide the evidence not just a number of times a certain act was perpetrated.

      Also, why are video games any more to blame than the “cops and robbers”, “cowboys and indians” or “soldiers” games we played when I was a pup. They were interactive, immersive and engrossing and all involve guns, knives (albeit both plastic) physical striking and tying up.

      I suspect you are just longing for a simplier time to reappear or wish to reinvent a utopia that never really existed

    • Scott Glennon says:

      11:38am | 19/03/10

      @Margaret,

      87.43% of statistics are made up on the spot.

      None of your views are consistent with the topic of discussion. Your position of “video games cause violence” is flawed. Video games simulate violence, and there is little proof to maintain your argument.

      Essentially you have disproved yourself. Currently Australia has no R18+. Therefore your stated increase in violence facts and figures cannot be associated with banned adult games in Australia.

      “Why are young men attracted to such violent fantasy role-playing?” Is it hard for you to believe females are capable of interest in adult gaming? In my opinion your a sexist pig.

      “Is the ability to socially integrate that much of a challenge?” For some yes. A healthy balance is likely a good idea.

      I maintain that an R18+ classification for Australia will meet international standards and also protect -18’s from adult only gaming, as parents will have better understanding of what games are available for Adults.

    • Heather says:

      01:54pm | 19/03/10

      @ Margaret:

      “Assaults continue to represent the majority of recorded violent crimes. The overall trend since 1996 has been upward, with an increase of 55 percent between 1996 and 2007.

      • The trend in sexual assault has also followed a general increase. The highest numbers of victims of sexual assault and of assault were recorded in 2007”

      Go and look at those stats again and then read the full report’s breakdown of these assaults. It’s a report on Domestic Violence, not youth crime, and increases have partially been dependent on the increase in REPORTING these crimes, not necessarily the increase in incidents of them.

      As one who has been on the receiving end of DV, I can assure you that my (adult) ex husband was not playing hours of violent video games before he assaulted me. In fact, he was also not under the influence of drug or alcohol. He did not play video games as a teenager (not even space invaders!!). His father “only” hit his mother “once”. OMG!! The father didn’t play video games either—he had a heart attack and died in 1978. He did fight in WW2—oh, wonder where all that violence came from? Must’ve been the early 1940s video games that the Nazis played in their spare time.

      You said earlier to “ask the police”. The same ex has a brother in the AFP—has been for the last 35-8 years. He tells me that youth crime tends to be gang/spree related, even here. He’d know, I suppose, given he’s been involved in rape crimes sections, youth policing and East Timor, and I’d take his (informed) opinion over your (uninformed) one, any day.

      Yeah. Margaret. Another point. The gangs of youth that do commit these assaults (here and in the US) don’t play video games. They can’t afford them. If they could afford the games, they can’t afford the consoles. They might steal one, but that’s to sell on so they can afford drugs.

      Hm. Drugs. Yes. Those are, in fact, the #1 factor in most crime. Those who want them steal and assault and those that take them assault and rape. Those that sell/import them are often involved in murders.

      Drugs and alcohol, not video games. Geddit?

      Oh, and a point also made by another: you’re being horribly sexist here. The fastest growing market share for video games are not, contrary to the popular belief of those who don’t play them, teenaged boys. In fact, it’s women aged 25-40—and most buyers of games FOR teenagers are their parents. That’d be me. Haven’t yet had the impulse to go slay anyone on the street with a sword, even after playing Baldur’s Gate. And that’s despite the fact I can actually use a sword.

      Hm. Maybe adults should be allowed to be, oh, I don’t know, adults? And I should also have the right to decide my 16 year old doesn’t need to buy GTA until he’s 18? Even though as it stands now he can legally buy it with or without my say-so because it hasn’t been rated 18+ like it has in every other games jurisdiction?

    • Tom says:

      01:58pm | 19/03/10

      “Why are young men attracted to such violent fantasy role-playing?

      Is the ability to socially integrate that much of a challenge?”

      Why is it any of your business what people do in their own homes? I suppose you also want to ban alcohol and cigarettes, after all, under 18s can easily get their hands on these items. What it comes down to is parental responsibility. If adults want to play these games they should be able to. Additionally, research shows the average age of gamers in Australia is about 30. Why should 30 year olds be subject to your ridiculous moralising? Also how exactly has every other country with an adult rating for games manage to survive without banning violent video games, if they are as bad as you say they are?

    • Formersnag the Child Protector. says:

      02:59pm | 19/03/10

      Heather @ 1:54pm, you go girl. We need to see more Mums standing up for their sons, when radical fe"man"ists seek to demonise all males, or blame it all, on video games.

      i grew up playing cowboys & indians in the back yard with cap guns, home made bows & arrows. i never hit my wife, although with 20/20 hindsight, sometimes i wish i had.

      Margaret, well knows, that her stats show a steady or gradual, increase in crime, aberrant behaviour since 1975. when the Anti Family law act was introduced & divorce became more popular. Even more so since the 80’s, when 2 full time, working parent homes, became more popular.

      Under parenting or inadequate parenting is the problem. There is no “Quality Time”, only, any time, spent with children growing up.

      Heather, you sound, more than sensible enough, to be doing just fine. Enjoy your sons as much as you can, now, they grow so fast.

    • Steve Smith says:

      10:29am | 19/03/10

      These groups are pathetic, where’s the study on the correlation between kids playing FIFA10 and getting outdoors to play soccer? Where’s the focus on good parenting, if they are truely worried?

      The problem is, technology has gone completely over the head of groups like the ACL, and their lack of understanding of todays typical gamer is proof of that.

      Reply

    • Ron Curry says:

      10:59am | 19/03/10

      Thanks for chipping in here Margaret to offer an opposing view.  With debates like this it’s important that we explore all the arguments and rationally balance them.

      I am concerned that children are getting access to this material and content and that we need to improve the mechanism to let parents know it’s completely unacceptable. We are looking for a full ‘toolkit’ for parents to understand the intensity of content in given media, not too dissimilar to Prof Anderson’s call for clearer labelling on all material.

      At first I thought I should address your issue about my “gratifying myself through use of virtual violence” etc, but consider this debate too important to make it personal and my ego is intact enough to ignore unsupported and emotive rhetoric.

      As Hawk clearly pointed out, as the popularity of video gaming has sky-rocketed, violent crime rates amoung youth and adults have had the inverse affect. Now, while I’m not saying there’s any causal effect here, I do have to challenge your hypothesis that there’s an increase in young adult males re-creating these crimes. And let’s be clear, I am not advocating giving more violent games to kids; quite the contrary.

      Just to address our disingenuous and pathetic PR statement; the iGEA does consult widely with many different stakeholders, both supportive and otherwise. The great pity is that many of the more vocal opponents refuse to meet with us.

      Reply

    • Margaret Gray says:

      11:52am | 19/03/10

      “...We are looking for a full ‘toolkit’ for parents to understand the intensity of content in given media…”

      Does that include your organisation’s support for Senator Conroy’s internet filter?

    • Tim Martain says:

      12:13pm | 19/03/10

      Classification and censorship are different beasts, Margaret. Don’t go confusing the issue.

    • Adam says:

      12:13pm | 19/03/10

      Margaret Gray says:

      Muddying the waters with the internet filter remark there Margaret. On that topic however, most rational people would indeed support an opt in filter. Equally, most rational people reject the notion that any self appointed guardian controls any other legal adults access to information.

    • Nate says:

      03:53pm | 19/03/10

      I don’t think you should legitamise the ravings of the ‘ill at ease’. She’s previously posted on a Tiger Woods article saying he’s encouraging the destruction of the environment,. becase she thinks lost golf balls are a “a terrible environmental legacy.”

      Please don’t feed the trolls.

    • Zeta says:

      11:02am | 19/03/10

      Good article Ron Curry. Man I would murder for a job with iGEA. As in, actually murder people. Just putting that out there if any future job opportunities come up. But you do need a ‘picture unrelated’ note up there. Who plays games on a Mac?

      My two cents: forget about R18+. What we need is an XXX25+ for all games with an online multiplayer component. So last night, I had a tiny 30 minute window while my girlfriend watched Thank God You’re Here to play my vidya games. My game of choice was Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, better known as Grenade of Grenade: Grenade Grenade. So about 10 minutes in and everything was going pretty swell, I had this sweet sniping spot, just picking off dudes with my silenced Walther 2000 left right and centre. I was on track for my kill streak, when I hear this little kid’s voice over my mic saying ‘Oh wow, you can kill your own team.’ Then BLAM. I get shotgunned to the face. By my own team mate. Now my first instinct is to rage quit, but then I’m like, ‘kid, you’re not supposed to kill your own team. we’re supposed to work together to kill the American pig dogs trying to take our bunker’ then the kid is all like ‘lol wut’ and walks up to me, and smashes me in the head with his riot shield.

      Now thanks to this kid, we’re already two kills behind, so next time I spawn I just sprint the hell away from him to get to another good sniping position. Things go okay for maybe two minutes, this kid comes back up to me and I’m like, ‘oh, this is cool, he’s actually covering my back’ and between us we get a few kills. He gets his kill streak and I hear ‘Friendly Predator Missile incoming’ and I even congratulate him. Then BLAM. He brings the predator drone missile down on both our heads and starts laughing.

      Now, it is only white Australian kids who do this. Black American kids? It’s like they have an instinctual capacity for light infantry tactics. You hear these little kid voicess going ‘yo dawg, imma pop a flash bang up in here, you cover me, word?’ White Australian kids ‘lol, imma shoot you for no reason and make the game unplayable I’m 12 and what is this!?’

      Ban them. I’m a professional dude who can afford - $500 for an XBox, $100 per year for an online account, $110+ for new games, $1500+ for an HD LCD television and $100 per month for a stable enough internet connection to even contemplate onling gaming. This isn’t a kid’s hobby. It’s for bros like me who just want to let off some steam after work by blowing shit up.

      13 year olds are ruining it for us, and probably going to set the whole industry back decades. Ban hammer them to the stone age. You should have to link a credit card to your XBox account that confirms your age before you can play online.

      ...and don’t get me started on World of Warcraft…

      Reply

    • Peta says:

      11:06am | 19/03/10

      I understand your intention here - but you get arseholes in every age group. I’m a professional mature person that works full time and likes to blow off steam at the end of the day with CoD too - however, I’m 23 years old and would be excluded by your rule.

      18’s pretty standard for booze, the army, marriage, leaving school etc - let them shoot people in a video game too.

    • Patrick says:

      11:39am | 19/03/10

      What’s funny is it’s so true, I always have to mute the microphone sounds whenever I play an online game with voice chat capability, way too many 13 year olds screaming into their mics…

    • ins0mniac says:

      11:46am | 19/03/10

      Zeta that kid sounds positively delightful compared with some of the little tards I’ve come across. At least that kid discovered that he could use the in game voice comms and restrained himself far enough not to shriek incessantly, deafenening his team in the process.
      I like the idea of a 25+ classification - in the meantime zeta if you’re after some older gamer action you check out http://www.theoldergamers.com (if you’re not already a member).
      Peta I understand there are exceptions to the rule but moronic behaviour in online games can sometimes extend into the early 20’s, by which point they either grow up or get arrested/die/wind up wandering the streets in search of food scraps.  In any case the survivors who have access to the internet are gererally mature enough to be trusted in their interaction with others.

    • Scott Glennon says:

      11:50am | 19/03/10

      @Zeta,

      Cracked me up! Thankyou =P

    • Zeta says:

      12:15pm | 19/03/10

      Well I’m glad I’m not alone. Sometimes I feel like I’m the only ‘normal’ human on XBox Live, and that everyone else is either a fully fledged member of the Bloods / Crips, a 13 year old with ADD, Korean, or a stoned Canadian.

    • Sky says:

      12:50pm | 19/03/10

      LOL Zeta, A pleasure to read as always.

    • Greek Snake says:

      02:41pm | 19/03/10

      Haha quite hilarious. Having played WoW for ages I know just how bad some of the younger players can be. They are the types that think they are a valuable addition to your group while failing miserably at every aspect of their role.

      Couldn’t help but laugh at the Mac comment! Haha

    • Zeta says:

      03:49pm | 19/03/10

      @ Greek Snake - I am actually one of those players who is no help to your group. I’ve never hit the level cap in 5 years. Every few months I decide to get back into it and I play for about 30 days before letting my subscription lapse. I think I’ve logged as many hours in that time as your average school kid logs in the Winter holiday break.

    • Keri says:

      11:04am | 19/03/10

      “Why are young men attracted to such violent fantasy role-playing?”

      You get that 50% of gamers are women? That the average age of gamers is 30?

      Given your rants thus far, it’s clearly to much to expect you to understand that there’s a difference between correlation and causation.

      Reply

    • Margaret Gray says:

      12:01pm | 19/03/10

      “...Given your rants thus far, it’s clearly to much to expect you to understand that there’s a difference between correlation and causation…”

      Really?  The AGW crowd seem to have little trouble believing that dichotomy.

      Spare me the predictable ad-homs too.

    • Eccles9 says:

      11:05am | 19/03/10

      While we’re deflecting the first cast stones of indignation from self-righteous moral busybodies…

      We have two thousand years of hard empirical evidence to back up the fact that immeasurably more violence; physical, mental and sexual abuse, anti-social behaviour and straight out genocide has been carried out by those who have read the Christian Bible than by those who have played video games.

      Can we assume blanket support from ACL and YMA will be forthcoming for a national campaign to ban access to the old and new testaments for under 18s too?

      Reply

    • Paul P says:

      11:01am | 19/03/10

      @ Margaret Gray

      ” Assaults continue to represent the majority of recorded violent crimes. The overall trend since 1996 has been upward, with an increase of 55 percent between 1996 and 2007.”

      That statistic means nothing. How does this correlate to VIDEOGAMES? How many violent MOVIES came out during this period? How much UNDERBELLY and its ilk is shown on primetime TV??

      “The trend in sexual assault has also followed a general increase. The highest numbers of victims of sexual assault and of assault were recorded in 2007.”

      Turn on MTV or even Video Hits in the morning. Watch and listen to how RAP MUSIC portays male attitudes towards women. Violent games encourage sexual assault how exactly?

      “Why are young men attracted to such violent fantasy role-playing?
      Is the ability to socially integrate that much of a challenge?”

      A large portion of these violent games are played over the Internet in a social setting while chatting with others. In my case, friends and family will meet at my house - we play games TO socialise.

      I am utterly sick and tired of people using videogames as as the reason for all of society’s problems. You quote random crime stats and link it all to videogames, whilst ignoring all other forms of media, not to mention other potential causes such as family problems, financial stresses, the list goes on. It’s completely spurious.

      Reply

    • Seano says:

      11:17am | 19/03/10

      There are games now in the MA15+ category that should be classified R. The problem is that with no R classification possible the censors don’t feel the content is bad enough to band them so they are misclassified.

      Bring in an R classification and re-classify all games. Bring in tough penalties for selling or providing underage kids inappropriate material. And finally spend some money educating parents because it’s about time they started taking responsibility for their kids.

      Reply

    • Matt says:

      11:18am | 19/03/10

      Religion.
      Ruining the lives of many, daily.
      What’s the age old Christian belief? Oh, that’s right, “follow of be killed”. Bible doesn;t have an R18+ rating, though it should (violence and fictional supernatural themes).

      Margaret, you are an archaic troll well over your head in a far more complex argument than you realise. There is no link. I am 26, been playing games since I was 10, and I have a very happy family life, and enjoy video games.

      Parenting should be done by parents, not religious funded groups. I do actually wonder what their motivation is, maybe a video game store should start supporting the “not for profit organisation”. Wonder if their tune would change

      Reply

    • Margaret Gray says:

      11:34am | 19/03/10

      “...I am 26, been playing games since I was 10, and I have a very happy family life, and enjoy video games…”

      Good for you.

      I have precious little spare time in my life to spend hours every day in my underpants in front of my computer or television set playing video games.

      I guess being an adult means you have different priorities.

      Reply

    • Steve Smith says:

      11:47am | 19/03/10

      Wearing underpants in front of the computer is a very old generalisation of a typical gamer. Everyone knows Sydney gets way too hot to be wearing any underpants at all.

    • Sick of this bs says:

      11:43am | 19/03/10

      You’re such a troll. What do you spend all your time doing? Going to church?

      I’m sure that does a lot for your fantasy facts.

    • Craig says:

      11:46am | 19/03/10

      I’m sure you have plenty of time to sit in front of the TV and watch television shows. Games are no different than TV. In fact all research shows that playing games engages the brain more than watching television. In fact studies have proven that playing Real Time Strategy games can actually keep an aging brain more healthy because you really need to focus and concentrate while playing them.

    • AliceC says:

      11:57am | 19/03/10

      “I have precious little spare time in my life to spend hours every day in my underpants in front of my computer or television set playing video games.”

      Who on earth are you spying on in your ‘preacious little spare time’???

      Yes, being an adult in a free society means you can choose any priorities you want, even posting random conclusions you’ve made about complete strangers.

    • Paul P says:

      11:57am | 19/03/10

      “I have precious little spare time in my life to spend hours every day in my underpants in front of my computer or television set playing video games.”

      But clearly enough spare time to make numerous unconstructive comments on an Internet forum.

    • Patrick Ray says:

      12:00pm | 19/03/10

      Okay. It’s officially time to stop feeding this particular troll. Thanks for playing, it’s been fun.

      And for the record: I, as a 31yo gamer, prefer to not wear any underpants at all while gaming, as that makes it much easier to masturbate as I commit heinous acts of simulated violence. And I usually finish each session with strangling a kitten before retiring to my mum’s basement to play with my action figures.

      Does that stereotype fit better with your skewed view of the world? Ok, good.

    • Scott Glennon says:

      12:00pm | 19/03/10

      @Margaret,

      His point still stands, he’s 26… and can’t buy games unsuitable for anyone over the age of 15.
      Your personal priorities have no impact on the choice of others, and is little proof that adult gaming is a waste of Australias time.

      R18+ classification may not get his underpants on, but might allow him to grow up past gaming designed for minors.

    • Phil says:

      12:09pm | 19/03/10

      Clearly though you have lots of time to spend in front of your computer attacking hordes of “evil enemies” (those for an 18+ classification for video games) and “slaying them” with your rhetorical weapons (straw man arguments and personal attacks based on gross caricatures). In the end though, you’re just another clueless internet troll.

    • Matt says:

      12:14pm | 19/03/10

      Exactly, I am an adult and I have priorities. I should also have choices.
      Something you are lost to understand.

      Also, Hours would be an overestimate, I work full time and study part time. I also wear my Zegna suit, occassionally,  whilst playing Playstation. Because I can

    • Rhys says:

      03:24pm | 19/03/10

      I think that it is quite obvious that all points that would have persuaded a reasonable person are useless now useless to post, the verdict is in, the open and rational majority have it.

      The older, bigoted and downright idiotic will never succumb to reason. To paraphrase the ingenious work of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle “Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories
      instead of theories to suit facts”  Insensible is most definetly the word I think those of intellect are searching for to describe Margaret and her ideological kin

    • BJ says:

      11:50am | 19/03/10

      You’re losing (actually, you’re being crushed) so you’re making personal attacks and sweeping generalisations. It saddens me that people like you exist.

      Reply

    • BJ says:

      12:33pm | 19/03/10

      Ack! I was referring to Margaret Gray - was trying to reply to the previous post. Not attacking the author.

    • Angus says:

      12:02pm | 19/03/10

      No it isn’t. I think at the moment the average age of users of games is approaching 35. What there should be is mature content available for the majority of people accessing this medium. The problem with Atkinson et al is that they think gamers are all 10-15 year old boys. The classification system should mirror that of other content (TV and Movies) and we should have consistency across the entire media spectrum. It’s easier to implement and enforce that way.

      Video games are the new zeitgeist. Look at the sales figures for MW2 and the money thrown at it by consumers.  People who think that restricting content for games will protect our children from all the ills of society are Neanderthal buffoons.

      Reply

    • Jean-Luc says:

      12:13pm | 19/03/10

      Margaret is just baiting now—there’s no need to respond to that kind of trolling. She’s had ample opportunity to make reasoned arguments but hasn’t produced anything of substance. What she’s reducing herself to now is the reinforcement of her and her ilk’s lack of ability to grasp the issues of classification and where gaming sits with the vast majority of Australians.

      Reply

    • Matt says:

      12:22pm | 19/03/10

      @ Patrick Ray

      I prefer to crucify my kittens as a gift to satan. Then BBQ them in a Sweet soy marinade. YUM.

      Reply

    • Patrick Ray says:

      01:16pm | 19/03/10

      Oooohh can you send me a recipe? I’m too busy sitting around in my underpants to bother Googling it.

    • AliceC says:

      01:35pm | 19/03/10

      LMAO!!!!!

      I prefer the taste of puppies personally, specially with lemon and thyme. Washes down well with the goat’s blood captured earlier during the sacrifical ceremony performed in my backyard…..

    • Adam says:

      12:23pm | 19/03/10

      Using this forum as a straw poll, it appears the public seems mostly in favour of an R rating for games. Therefore perhaps its time our elected representitives, including the SA atorny general, do what they are paid to do and respond to the will of the electorate. Enshirne in law an R rating for video content.

      btw Margaret, you do realise you personally have no legal reason to engage with any material, electronic game or otherwise, you may find confronting don’t you?

      Reply

    • NickT says:

      12:36pm | 19/03/10

      In all of these for/against R18 debates, and the references to violence in teenagers, not once has anyone mentioned a fairly basic observation…

      If your 15/16/17 yr old kids are sitting at home playing video games, then they AREN’T out on the street with gangs of mates drinking, smoking, taking drugs and causing trouble. Now where are THEIR parents?  And isn’t drinking and smoking (let alone taking drugs) meant for over 18’s too? Yet they still get hold of it.

      I’m a 42yr old father, have been playing games since I was about 7 (Pong) and have absolutely NO violent tendencies at all (except maybe toward religious moral crusaders, but that’s completely aside from games :^)

      I would MUCH rather be sitting down with my 15yr old step son, playing games, than have him out on the streets with groups of mates.  It’s fun, bonding, and I know he’s not out getting into trouble.  He’s fully aware it’s a GAME (Dictionary says: a form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.), that has absolutely no bearing on real life. At least I am there, with him, having some ‘fun’ time.

      Some people choose to read, others garden, some watch TV, and 68% of us (fairly evenly split between women AND men) like to play games. I’d much rather play games, even violent ones, than watch much of the dross on the TV.

      Reply

    • Heather says:

      02:20pm | 19/03/10

      “If your 15/16/17 yr old kids are sitting at home playing video games, then they AREN’T out on the street with gangs of mates drinking, smoking, taking drugs and causing trouble.”

      Bingo.

      I regularly play WoW with my 15yo, 13 yo (girl) and 17yo (my eldest boy, 19, has left home and my younger 2, 11& 8, are too young for WoW although I do occasionally let the 11 yo play) . This is much more fun than watching TV, for example, with the garbage disguised as entertainment. My boys don’t watch Underbelly, they play WoW with their mum—but only AFTER they’ve finished their chores and/or homework. I know where they are, I know what they’re doing and I know who they’re with. I know their online friends (some are also mine). My kids are learning about co-operative play. They’re learning that their mother is also a *gasp!!!* person. My house is cleaner and my daughter isn’t being stalked online by trolls (real trolls, not the Horde kind wink ) because she can always say “yeah, that lvl 80 hunter over there? That’s my mum. Try saying that again.”

      @ Margaret (again) My daughter is, btw a straight-A student who prefers music. I am a full time mum, plus I go to Uni full time (doing my Arts/History & Ancient History honours) and work casually on the weekends to pay the bills. My 15 yo son plays cricket 3 days a week, is at school (yr 11) full time. My 17 yo (18 this year) left school last year and is taking a gap year before going to Uni. We have “real social lives” as well. Actually, many of my RL (Real Life) friends also play WoW, so I get that extra socialisation in when time issues would mean I otherwise can’t (a single mum with 6 kids can’t get out to the pub at irregular hours, y’know).

      None of us play in our undies. I would, but… well, I want my boys not to be traumatised for the rest of their lives, thanks anyway.

      Funny thing? Being a gamer myself means I am fully aware of the content of M15+ games and can therefore regulate it more effectively. However, many parents TRUST the classification. And the games under 15+ should be for adults-only, IMO.

      An R18+ is long overdue.

    • Crusader says:

      06:37pm | 19/03/10

      Heather, great to hear of a mother who enjoys playing World of Warcraft with her kids. I play in a guild with many like-minded people, among them married couples and families with children. And of course a few of my real-life friends. Although we remain mostly anonymous, there is a real community spirit to it and we all have a great time (trolls are slain on sight). We all have work and social lives, which will always take first priority over World of Warcraft (or any other game, for that matter). It’s disheartening to see people still believe that our `life’ in Azeroth has any influence over our real one. I think we’re all mature enough not to let that happen, and therefore we are mature enough to decide what will influence us. I think the R18+ rating should be introduced. We’re mature enough to make our own decisions.

    • Sky says:

      12:41pm | 19/03/10

      Seriously… If computer games really has an influence on kids, we would have a a whole generation of young adults running around, popping magic pills and listening to repetitive music like pac-man.

      Reply

    • Mr Pac says:

      03:22pm | 19/03/10

      LoL yeah i couldnt immagin….

      ooo look at the birdy

    • PatC says:

      08:00am | 20/03/10

      Sounds like a Friday night to me…. maybe you’re on to something.

    • Timbo says:

      01:11pm | 19/03/10

      I have a 11yo stepson whose father has been happily letting him play all sorts of M/MA15+ games, and also those games that should R rated. In fact, his father goes and actually BUYS them for him - he doesn’t play them, his son does. How to you legislate against idiots like that? We’ve got zero control over what he does with his father, who also thinks its cool to let him watch (and buy complete DVD series of) shows like “Family Guy” and “American Dad”. Classic “I’m the cool parent” stuff.

      Having a R classifcation blantantly visible on the cover (and not just a sticker that can be removed) atleast gives adults in our situation something to point at, legally, to try and protect our kids from this stuff.

      I think alot of us are forgetting how recent all of this is - I’m 40 and this sort of hyper-realistic, immersive games didn’t exist when I was 10-11-12, even when I hit the teens, the worse we had was stuff like Doom and Quake - very cartoony and quite obviously a game with a limited range of things to do within the game. Games now have very far reaching limits to them, and almost no restrictions on what the player can do - you can, and people often do, get immersed and lost within the game, so much that they forget that a real world exists. Now that games are mimicing real-world events and situations - isn’t there now an arguement that you should bring real-world thinking and your own experiences into how you play the game? A type of thinking that children just dont have at that time in their lives? Personally, I find it VERY disturbing that kids my stepson’s age are playing games like Call Of Duty - a series of games that contains (in the later games) graphic situations of executions, massacres, beheading, and some quite graphic death scenes. Are children REALLY equipped to deal with that? And when they see an actual news report of a real-life event that mirrors what they did in the game - an event that hurt actual people and families - how do they reconcile that event with what they did in the game?

      (I’m using CoD as my example here but it applies to most games of this sort of rating - Manhunt, GTA, Hitman, BioShock, etc)

      I believe these are all questions that require investigation because really, we’ve never had this before as a society - this level of exposure of children to (non-sanitised) violence.

      I dont have any problems with adults using these games to relax or unwind - if that floats your boat, more power to you - you are who the game is written for. Of course the kids will play the game at their friends house, or download it - this is where PARENTS need to step up and TALK to each other. Alert the other child’s parents, work together to reduce the exposure….and if the kids don’t like it, then tough.

      Reply

    • Scott Glennon says:

      01:53pm | 19/03/10

      @Timbo,

      With or without an R rating, these games are accessable within seconds of a google search. It is in the interest of law abiding citizens that an R rating be used for video games.  People want the choice to purchase games from Australian retailers.

      As for children playing, listening or watching R rated materials… I don’t really care… I did, from 14 onwards and I turned out to be a decent human being. Really it comes down to parenting and education. Australian parents need to set expectations for their offspring and be willing to react appropriately when rules are broke.

    • Timbo says:

      03:32pm | 19/03/10

      @Scott

      So you were watching R rated material from 14 onwards when the clear defination is, and has always been, 18…yet you say that parents need to set expectations. Do your parents know what you were doing?

      My whole point about all this is these sorts of games weren’t around when we were growing up, and now we’re taking the classic human view of “it didn’t harm me, so it must be alright so here you go Little 8 year old Johnny, go and blow the heads off these guys”.

      Noone really knows the longterm effects of all this stuff - ok there’s been studies done, results of most of it conflicting with each other but I don’t believe there just isn’t ANY effect at all - its just a matter of determining how much of it there is, and using caution instead of thinking “oh its a computer game, or a cartoon, so its obviously for kids”.

    • Rhys says:

      01:34pm | 19/03/10

      The simple fact that is causing all of this chaos is that minors WILL be able to access this sort of material, the same way that minors WILL get access to alcohol and minors WILL get access to other materials and substances that are inappropriate for their particular age.

      This does not mean that substances should be with-held from older people who have every right to use it.  It all comees down to the responsibility of the gaurdian of every minor from stopping minors from using this sort of material.

      The naivety of people regarding the addiction and link between video games and agressive behaviour is ridiculous. The link is stronger than that of movies or tv series but its strength is hugely exaggerated by older people who simply assume that “young impressionables” WILL copy the actions of characters that they play as which is incredibly ridiculous.  Violent actions can be seen in nearly any video game and the level of gore and realism does not really impact the level on which a person will feel tied to the character or mimmick the violent actions in real life that they have performed in virtual reality.

      As for christian intervention on this front I believe it is completely ridiculous, the Christian ideology is all about people making their own ifestyle choices and not enforcing them onto people.  An idea conveyed by Christ himself.

      All in all it is unethical to with-hold material meant for a person simply because of others who would break laws and abuse those materials

      Reply

    • MichaelS says:

      02:19pm | 19/03/10

      @ Margaret Gray

      i find it interesting that you feel like you are important enough to inflict your will to disallow free australians to do something as basic as play electronic games. Do you see us piping up to try and stop you from, uh i dont know, going out and doing your evil bidding? Maybe you should just get some facts, open your mind and worry about what you are up to, not everyone else.

      Reply

    • hugh says:

      02:32pm | 19/03/10

      @Margaret

      Best piece of trolling i have come across in a while
      Seriously, great work on getting the whole blog jumping up and down against you

      Like, making “real” arguments - even though they are clearly fake. GOLD

      Reply

    • PatC says:

      02:47pm | 19/03/10

      The Australian Christian Lobby is probably being a little hypocritical claiming that children should be protected from anything that is inappropriate and potentially damaging.
      Given that the Christian institution is arguable the biggest paedophile ring the world has ever seen I would suggest that the Australian Christian Lobby should protect children from that inappropriate and damaging behaviour and let adults decide for themselves what they wish to see, read, hear or play.

      Reply

    • Steve Smith says:

      03:24pm | 19/03/10

      Are you a member of NAMBLA and just trying to draw some attention away from yourself? Because that’s arguable the stupidest comment Ive seen on the net today.

    • G says:

      03:33pm | 19/03/10

      Your comment:I couldn’t agree more…

      I find it slightly bemusing that particular religions get upset about the welfare of children with regards to imaginary violence in computer games.  Whilst there is an epidemic with their own members and leaders performing real life violence of the worst kind, crimes against humanity on the most vulnerable of children.

      In addition, I might add the ACL leader who vehemently is against a R18+ because computer game violence is “bad”.  But he himself has served in the military for 32 years where he has trained people to actually kill in real life and commander of SAS ‘death squads’.

      The hypocrisy is almost suffocating.

    • Zeta says:

      04:09pm | 19/03/10

      This is why we can’t have nice things. The biggest paedophile ring in the world is probably a paedophile ring, and actually the Church / Churches. Statements like that don’t help the cause for an R18+ rating.

      These guys aren’t malicious. They honestly believe that kids need to be protected from this stuff. We’re in the weird situation of agreeing with them, that kids do need to be protected from R18+ content, the problem is the two sides not agreeing with how to go about it.  They want a blanket ban most likely, every one else wants tighter clasification rules. We agree there too, as if you check out their websites they attack the OFLC constantly for letting dodgy content get through.

      I think a compromise position has to be reached. Attacking them because they’re religious is pointless.

    • MichaelS says:

      04:19pm | 19/03/10

      @ Steve Smith

      What? you think PatC is not on the money? so you are FOR the Christian institution forcing children to have sex with people who they are supposed to be able trust? maybe we should make you wear some sort of T-shirt with an advisory warning on it stating something about keeping children away from you because you can’t be trusted!

    • Rhys says:

      04:59pm | 19/03/10

      I completely agree with Zeta, Christians on the whole are nice people trying to improve the world however forcing opinions onto people is neither right nor succesful in changing peoples opinion on the subject they are having with-held

      I am sorry for any offence I may have caused in my previous statements towards Chrisitanity

    • PatC says:

      07:45pm | 19/03/10

      @ Steve Smith - I had never heard of the NAMBLA before your comment above but having just Goggled it I feel slightly insulted.
      I’m sorry that you feel my comment is stupid but as a victim of the pedophiles mentioned above, my comment came from the heart.

      Reply

    • Peter says:

      10:56pm | 20/03/10

      A poll in the Herald Sun showed that out of the 10,000 people polled, 92% of respondants did not think violet video games cause violent behavior.

      Reply

    • Sam Chowder says:

      11:31pm | 21/03/10

      .... and playing Computer games causes global warming and extreme weather events, wheres the sticker for that.

      Reply
 
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