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That’s all great Wayne, but what about interest rates?

Malcolm Farr

by Malcolm Farr

12 Dec 03:45pm

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Filed under: Banking, Banks, Economy, Interest Rates, Mortgages, Wayne Swan

60 comments

Treasurer Wayne Swan, as Acting Prime Minister, began his press conference today by acknowledging Australians who have been hit by savage, widespread flooding.

Interest rates? Quick, look over there! Picture: Gary Ramage

Then he started talking about how he was going to help ordinary Australians by shaking up bits of the financial system, and it was at that precise point that Wayne Swan lost about 99 per cent of banking customers.

Floods they could understand, even if they were high and dry; covered bonds and RMBS funding were outside their usual ATM transactions.

There was little the Treasurer said which gave any substantial confidence to customers of your average high street bank branches that they now could boss around their loan manager and benefit from lower loan charges.

Nor was there a guarantee that interest rates would not again shoot up beyond the official rate.

Existing mortgage holders? You are skewered. Same goes for those already with bank accounts. There will be no fee-free exits guaranteed by law for them.

The Government says it will pass legislation banning exit fees on new loans and accounts by July 1 next year and that banks, who have already dropped the penalty charges, will be monitored in case they instead sneak them into up-front fees. But that sneakiness wont be illegal, as such, just frowned on.

And look, there will be a national awareness campaign “to empower consumes in banking”. In short, another advertising campaign.

Meanwhile, credit unions and building societies which act very much like banks will be able to call themselves banks. However, there was nothing directly promoting mortgage lenders who don’t also take deposits—the Aussie Home Loans and the like—but have a record as vibrant competitors to the big banks.

And then the ACCC, created to stomp on uncompetitive practices, will be asked to look at the banks in case there are uncompetitive practices to be stomped on.

And let us not forget that borrowers will get a sheet of paper showing them what their loan would cost. The “fact sheet” will also show what other lenders might charge.

“This is about values,” said Swan, who then related a cameo of a family yearning for the security of a home but who were at the mercy of hikes in interest charges.

It was a 45 minute press conference—a triple-header with Assistant Treasure Bill Shorten and parliamentary secretary David Bradbury also lining up—and came complete with slide show.

Behind it all was the Labor government pledge that it would peg interest rates—most importantly on mortgages and loans to small business—to as low a level as possible.

And nobody who watched that trio perform could be certain their reforms would deliver on that pledge.

Most commented

60 comments

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    • Ian says:

      04:26pm | 12/12/10

      Lame, lame….lame.

      Reply

    • Greg Blackmore says:

      04:31pm | 12/12/10

      Mortgage Lenders Insurance the real Ned Kelly of Home Loans.
      Lenders Mortgage Insurance (LMI), is usually offered by a third party insurer, not the financial institution. The amount of this premium will depend on how much less than 20% deposit you have. LMI insurance protects the lender from any losses that they may incur as a result of you defaulting on the loan or ceasing to make payments etc. Even though the lending institution has a first mortgage and is able to sell your property, the LMI protects them against any short fall in sale price against the outstanding loan balance. You may, or may not know, that LMI only protects the lender and does not offer any protection to the borrower. The LMI provider may then also take legal action against the borrower to recoup their payment to the lender. Now, here is the “Ned Kelly” bit. Your Lenders Mortgage Insurance is taken out for the term of the loan and in many instances this is 30 years. However, through a change in work location, or for other reasons, you may decide to sell the property and purchase a home in another town, or need to purchase a larger home for an increasing family. In this situation, you payment of premium for LMI, ostensibly for 30 years cover, is simply forfeited and your new home proposal is regarded as a new proposal subject to a new premium altogether – is this double dipping or not? The key word is of course that the term of the policy is equal to the term of the loan, so when you pay out your loan, the term of the agreement has effectively ended. There is some relief possibly available, depending on the wording of the policy, and you may get a partial refund of premium if you sell you home within 12 to 24 months and repay the loan. However, if you have held the property for longer than this then the premium paid, ostensibly for 30 years, is simply forfeited to “Ned” (the insurer) You may also be able to get a partial refund within the first couple of years of you get a new valuation (rising market) that effectively reduces your Loan Value Ratio (LVR) If you wish to substitute the security offered (your home) there may be no refund but no additional premium payable but the valuation must support the same quality of property. If on the other hand you substitute security and there is an increase in the LVR or insured amount, then this will be deemed to be a new risk and a new proposal and a new premium payable on the new risk. A refund on the cancelled policy may be payable, but unlikely after one to two years. So it is therefore preferable to have an ongoing loan of the same value with substituted security rather than just sell up and pay out the first loan and then identify and purchased another property with a new loan. I doubt that many people actually get to keep their home for the full loan term of 30 years covered by Lenders Mortgage insurance and so these insurers, even though they have assessed the risk over the full term of 30 years, in a lot of cases, simply get away with your money after just a few years – just like “Ned Kelly”!…

      Reply

    • Slim says:

      05:30pm | 12/12/10

      To the sub-ed who coined the headline: can we once and for all get over this myth that governments control or indeed influence interest rates. You could cut government spending by 10% and it would have a short-term impact on interest rates of less than 0.1%. The $10 per month you’d save on a mortgage would be more than offset by the increased cost of services and unemployment resulting from savage spending cuts, which would also have a depressing effect on the economy.

      Reply

    • Tom says:

      07:07am | 13/12/10

      Wrong Slim governments can and do influence interest rates.

    • Dash says:

      09:07am | 13/12/10

      That’s a nonsense. Governments do influence interest rates. This government’s spend-a-thon has put upwards pressure on rates. Any policy that increases inflation (eg a tax on carbon) will also put upwards pressure on interest rates. Anyone who suggests that monetary and fiscal policy of the government has no impact on interest rates is kidding themselves!

    • The Badger says:

      09:57am | 13/12/10

      I agree dash
      It would have been much better to have gone into a recession, lost our jobs, our homes and lived under a bridge in a cardboard box.
      Excellent
      You and your coalition mates have many shares in Visy?

    • Dash says:

      10:43am | 13/12/10

      Badger, come on man! The first stimulus did it’s job, the $47billion wasted on the second is up for debate. Nah, no shares in visy, how are the ALP shares in Offset Alpine going? What’s the going rate for fire insurance these days Badger?

    • Ryan says:

      01:50pm | 13/12/10

      @Dash: badger is a troll, he knows full well that the pressures of the GFC were well and truly gone by the time the second stimulus was rolled out yet would have us believe that the second stimulus was what saved us from recession, just as he would have us believe that Liberal party opposed the first stimulus, typical Labor tactics of spreading lies. We shouldn’t be surprised though considering their illustrious leader is the biggest liar of them all, pretty much anything that comes out of her mouth is a fat lie, hell if we believed her she would be playing full forward for the bulldogs after having sailed around the world three times.

    • The Badger says:

      03:08pm | 13/12/10

      Sorry Ryan
      I don’t “know” any of those things.
      guess I don’t read the right wing rags you subscribe to and don’t re-write history in my own likeness.

    • Against the Man says:

      05:40pm | 12/12/10

      I remember Wayne stating he wasn’t going to do anything about the banks, free market economics and all. Than Joe Hockey an the public put the pressure on the nervous one and he folded like a pack of cards. The ALP, their PM and all associates are as competent as the government of Zimbabwe.

      Reply

    • Mr. Mugabe says:

      08:10pm | 13/12/10

      errr
      Zimbabwe have a conservative government, more like John Howard’s.

    • Ryan says:

      02:37pm | 14/12/10

      @Mr. Mugabe: wrong, Zimbabwe had a very left socialist / communist one party state that claimed to be democratic until pressures forced them to allow a second party whom have suffered immense intimidation, torture and murders. Not too dissimilar to Hitlers riegieme, actually Mugabe kind of fancies himself as Hitler.
      What is embarrassing is that Australia and the UK were instrumental in putting him into power, hell the queen even gave him an honorary knighthood of the royal order of Bath.

    • Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

      05:48pm | 12/12/10

      So what Wayne has really said NOTHING! ! ! ! !

      Reply

    • tommy says:

      10:54am | 13/12/10

      DEAR, SMALL,  ROBERT SMISSEN.nobody wants to pay higher rates.they are still quite low.what did the liberals do about the banks when in power.ANSWER IS ZILCH. when you come up with some policies let us know.

    • nosthow says:

      07:03pm | 12/12/10

      Right on que Malcolm the Opposition spokesman Joe Hockey opposed the new deal ! Breathtaking in their own stupidity ! Tony Abbotts “blockers and wreckers” are the worst nosthow has ever seen in his long history of being glued to politics - and that goes way back to my young days when Harold went for the BIG swim on Cheviot beach and hasnt as yet returned ! R you there Arold ?

      Reply

    • Joel B1 says:

      08:19am | 13/12/10

      “the worst nosthow has ever seen” Is that writing about yourself in the third person?

      If so, could that be taken to imply there’s a whole bunch of nosthows paid to comment by, say, a political party?

    • Aitch B says:

      09:34am | 13/12/10

      “cue”, nosthow….... “cue”.

      Of course he opposes it…... it’s utter rubbish. The banks are rubbing their hands with glee. The banks are dropping the exit fees anyway and Swan’s plans provide them with all sorts of money making opportunities that will outstrip the exit fees by billions!

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      11:18am | 13/12/10

      @Joel B1
      There is no solid evidence that nosthow is working for the coalition party, it’s obvious he’s an avid volunteer.

    • stephen says:

      07:50pm | 12/12/10

      Why doesn’t Aussie Home Loans take deposits ?
      Why doesn’t the builder or the carpenter or the car-maker offer credit, and simultaneously take funds from the customer that may cover the cost of goods and labour ?
      Ignoring finance companies for a moment, isn’t it important that reputable tradesman and salesman should be dictated to by the same conditions that the consumer is ?

      Reply

    • john says:

      07:57pm | 12/12/10

      Mal Farr, one should be asking “what about the treasurer?” you know the one that’s wasted the Australia fund on productive fornication handouts, pink batts, NBN for better online gaming, insane MP wage rises, and waste across the whole board to the point we now have an enormous debt to pay back. I like the fact the treasurer not only looks like a stupid dork, its even funnier when people look up to him. The reason why he is spineless to go at the banks is because the banks own or have a giant finger in most of the giant insurers pies and the government premium tax grab from insurers is close to 50% of the profits. Now you know, by priming up the credit unions the government is only greasing its tax income wheels from another source!!

      Its got very little to do with the little people with mortgages.

      Reply

    • Dash says:

      09:27am | 13/12/10

      John, I agree. The government’s carbon tax policy has nothing to do with the environment and everything to do with another tax source. You forgot to mention the second stimulus package. $47 billion in taxpayers money which was not necessary, overheated the economy and put interest rates up! This government says one thing and does the opposite. They promised to reduce our grocery bills, and our fuel bills and provide more affordable housing and cheaper better childcare. Where are all of those things? The whole ALP is a magnet for spineless dorks. Swanny fits right in!

    • Dave says:

      08:29pm | 12/12/10

      The reason this reform is lame is because there is no need for it. Banks are strong, a very good thing, and the secularization market, the previous driver for competition is just about dead. Everything else is just cheap politics that won’t have any sustainable effect on the structure of the industry.

      Reply

    • Ryan says:

      10:39pm | 12/12/10

      Wow, if that is “reform” we are up the proverbial without a paddle. God help us because our treasurer sure won’t!

      Reply

    • michael j says:

      11:53pm | 13/12/10

      Yes he is going to cost australians a lot of money if these silly ideas go ahead
      i cannot see anywhere that this policy will help in anyway
      Australian banks did not go broke because of the GFC so
      that to me means they must have/be doing a fair job this
      complaining about exit fees is in most cases less than a $1,000 ,,hardly something to whinge about over 30 yrs
      when i bought a property 25 years ago i was paying !
      interest,,i do not understand the whingeing when it is less than%8,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    • Super D says:

      05:47am | 13/12/10

      Wayne has demonstrated that he knows nothing about finance.  Ok so we all knew that already.

      Reply

    • Rosie says:

      06:45am | 13/12/10

      What happened to free choice and shoping around for the best deals????

      What happened to proper business strategy for any business to suceed and make a profit. Do we now have to rely on “good luck” to stay in business??????

      All business strive on return on assests and finacial institutions are no different.

      Banks borrow the money to lend with different maturity dates so if these loans are moved to another finacial institution the Banks may miss out on their profit if they have to subsitute a loan at a lower rate. This is a business transaction that Banks do all the time.

      Banks will waiver exit fees if they felt the customer was worth a lot more to them. We have been with the same bank all our banking life and have always felt that they will give us a good deal because they don’t want to lose our business.

      This is another rushed idea brought forward so they could be seen to be doing something. Swan again looked like when he was trying to convince the public about the super profit mining tax!

      Reply

    • nosthow says:

      07:50am | 13/12/10

      @Rosie- remember little Johnny Howard had the message on his lectern Rosie “Keeping Interest Rates Low” and lo and behold 7 subsequent increases after his reelection ! Breathtaking isnt it ! Howard did absolutely nothing in his 12 years to help stem the greed of any banks and now its left to Labor to do the heavy work - which they have now done. And what is the Oppositions position - to block and wreck ! Wreck and Block, Block and Wreck thats all Tony Abbott stands for - shameful ! Take up that hobby I suggested Rosie your team are set for many many years of Opposition - hahahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

    • Anthony of WA says:

      08:33am | 13/12/10

      Well what can we expect, these guys have never lived in the real world, have no understanding of business and how hard it is to make and keep money, but it is sure easy to spend other peoples money, especially when you are never held to account.

    • Hunter says:

      09:09am | 13/12/10

      Rosie “rushed idea”?? Come on, Swannies been talking about it for months and in the end hasen’t done a thing, other than announce another enquiry. What building society or credit union would want to be called a bank anyway and be seen to be as bad as they are! Give me a break this is just another lot of Labor smoke and mirrors empty words.

    • Rosie says:

      09:45am | 13/12/10

      nosthow unfortunately I have been forced to take up a hobby of exposing the ridicules diatribe that oozes out from the likes of you. The “diatribe” you use to win over those that are easily persuaded or deceived to support a do and stand for nothing Govt is breathtaking!

    • Dash says:

      09:48am | 13/12/10

      Nosthow, what a load of bullshit! Swan approved 2 bank mergers actively reducing competition in the sector. That and his second stimulus has put upwards pessure on interest rates. He’s only pretending to act now because of pressure from the opposition! The ALP didn’t deliver cheaper groceries. They didn’t deliver cheaper fuel, they didn’t deliver cheaper better childcare. They didn’t deliver more affordable housing. They didn’t deliver 200+ childcare centres. They didn’t deliver cheaper books for all Australians. They didn’t deliver Laptops. They couldn’t deliver an insuilation scheme, a green loans scheme, root and branch tax reform, an East Timor Solution, the Epping parrammatta railway or the ETS. And you expect them to do the “heavy work”.

      they promised to reduce our costs of living and have achieved the opposite. Now they are actively pursuing a carbon tax which will drive up utility prices and every good and service dependent on electricity. And guess what inflation will do - yep drive rates up even more.

      The only people wrecking are the ALP! They are wrecking household bills and they’re wrecking the economy.

      Interest rates increased under Howard because of economic growth. They reduced because of the GFC, but now they are increasing because of the governments wasteful spend-a-thon, and concerns over inflation.

      BTW, you’re wrong, cost of living expenses and the carbon tax will be the death of this for the minority by the minority government.

    • Rosie says:

      10:27am | 13/12/10

      @ Hunter - Ooooooops that’s correct, Swan did say he was working on these reforms for a long time. God forbid, months to produce something that reqires very little thinking. It is futuristic and we are not even sure whether it will ever take place.

      I guess when I was commenting, Gillard’s determination to hit the ground in 2011 with decisions and delivery was on my mind. Is the Gillard Govt running out of time to prove themselves as making decisions and implementing those decisions???????

    • scaper... says:

      10:35am | 13/12/10

      Hi Rosie, why bother with the person that said on the ‘Manliness’ thread that he is a stud that has been married three times? Those three women must have all been the ones at fault. What a ladies’ man!

      Then he admits here that he has been following politics since Holt. That would put him in the ‘Viagra’ class but I doubt that, fantasist is an apt description. You get that from the rabid left whose only argument about the worst government in this nation’s history is to squawk their hatred of a long gone government…absolutely pathetic but it sure adds to the ammo stocks!

    • nosthow says:

      11:01am | 13/12/10

      @scaper - there you go scaper you seem to be liking noshow now - see fella knew you could do it !  hahahhhhhhhhhhhh

    • Against the Man says:

      07:21am | 13/12/10

      The caption under the picture should read, ‘‘Here is a graph of all the suckers that voted for us!’

      Reply

    • The Badger says:

      03:11pm | 13/12/10

      Actually he has just spotted one of the coalition “levers” that joe hid.

    • Aitch B says:

      08:31am | 13/12/10

      Swan said on ABC redio this morning that his wife handles the bulk of his financial affairs. I think I know why…......

      Let’s get her elected pronto….. Kim Swan for Treasurer!!

      He also said that people have the ability now to call ASIC and complain about ‘excessive and unfair’ exit fees. One can only wonder what ASIC interprets as excessive and unfair.

      Reply

    • Vaunted says:

      08:52am | 13/12/10

      Mr Swan is bringing to bear the full weight of his grasp of commerce based on his real-world business experience (nil), advised by a panel of highly paid government experts, no doubt boasting a commensurate level of real-world business experience. Time to move along again folks, there’s not likely to be much more than faintly bellicose rhetoric and bombast here.

      Reply

    • Dash says:

      09:19am | 13/12/10

      You have to love the comedy which is this federal ALP. Swan promising to help ordinary Australians with their cost of living. Ha ha ha.

      Does anyone remember the promise to reduce your fuel cost (fuelwatch). Does anyone remember the promise to reduce your grocery bill (grocery choice). What about the promise of cheaper better childcare or the one about more affordable housing? Or perhaps the one about no carbon tax?Are people still falling for the spin from this government? They failed to deliever their promises to reduce cost of living expenses. And they are now pursuing policy that will drive them up (e.g. a carbon tax). Swan is a fool and so is the rest of the ALP and their loony green buddies!

      The only things Swan has done for interest rates is a second stimulus which was unnecessary and overheated the economy and the approval of two bank mergers thereby reducing competition in the sector. Both have put upwards pressure on rates. If the ALP follow inflationary policies like the carbon tax, guess what, rates will continue to rise! Now he wants you to believe he’s going to help do the opposite but his government has a history of non delivery.

      If he removes exit fees, then all that will happen is entry fees will increase and so will the rates. The best thing he could do would be to increase competion but oops, he did the opposite. Who believes this government on anything anymore? And more to the point, why would you?

      Reply

    • The Badger says:

      09:49am | 13/12/10

      If only Joe Hockey would tell him where the coalition put the levers.

    • Dash says:

      10:33am | 13/12/10

      Hi Badger, monetary policy and fiscal policy do not belong to the coalition. These levers haven’t been hiding. Perhaps all the ALP needs is an economics text? A little piece of Keynesian economic theory around the price of money wouldn’t hurt Swanny or the ALP would it? Perhaps Gillard should put down her little red book and read one on macroeconomics instead?

    • The Badger says:

      10:49am | 13/12/10

      So dash - where are the levers that haven’t been hiding?

    • Adam Diver says:

      01:58pm | 13/12/10

      @ Badger - You will find them within the budget

    • MarK says:

      02:35pm | 13/12/10

      Catchphrases…..love them. Keep looking for them levers. Nothing like tossing up a unicorn or two.

      Oh and no home will need a gig pipe ... never no way and uh uh.

    • The Badger says:

      07:58pm | 13/12/10

      Yes Mark - catchphrases
      like:
      stop the boats
      great big new tax

      No policies, just a wrecking mechanism oiled by Dr. No and cranked by his band of geriatric conservatives monkeys.

    • Tim says:

      10:29am | 13/12/10

      I can’t believe I actually wasted my time reading the comments.
      “Wayne Swan knows nothing about finance”
      “No, Joe Hockey knows nothing about finance”
      “Labor are poo poo heads”
      “No Liberals are”

      Reply

    • Ryan says:

      02:21pm | 13/12/10

      @Tim: And yet then you found it pertinent to grace our time with such an informative and insightful post, well done!

    • Tim says:

      08:38am | 14/12/10

      And yet Ryan, you found it worth your time to reply to my pointless comment about pointless comments. Gold star to you.

      Maybe you don’t realise it, but myself and most likely many other people read this site to get news, get good analysis on issues and maybe learn something from the comments.
      Unfortunately these threads seem to be constantly filled with comments from political hacks spouting their useless diatribe about Labor or Liberal being worse than the other.

    • Mystery 2 me says:

      09:58am | 14/12/10

      Tim
      This isn’t a news site.
      You must have taken a wrong turn.
      This is an opinion site, not a news site.
      If you want news, you should go to Murdoch if like ryan you want the right wing conservative view of the news or the abc if you want something a little more fair and balanced.

    • Ryan says:

      02:39pm | 14/12/10

      @Mystery 2 me: fair enough, although I wouldn’t agree on the abc being fair and balanced, not since its filled to the brim with labor / union hacks.

    • Leave our super alone says:

      01:16pm | 13/12/10

      This is one of the most alarming parts of the so called reforms:
      “A MOVE to fire-proof the finance sector from an over-dependence on foreign borrowings by allowing banks to tap into the nation’s trillion-dollar superannuation nest-egg with covered bonds”.

      Reply

    • JenfromNanaGlen says:

      01:23pm | 13/12/10

      Don’t have a mortgage but do have credit card and car loan so yes I’d like interest rates to come down.  ..And yes governments do affect interest rates by the size of their deficits and their borrowings.

      So Swannie why is it you deliver so little to so many so often!  These changes are so lame as to be useless and will probably only antagonize the banks into bumping up some other fees or inventing new ones.

      Reply

    • Dazeddazza says:

      01:56pm | 13/12/10

      I said this in an earlier blog.  Gillard and her gang lack the guts to take on the banks and this latest effort by Swan proves my case.  Sure, the banks, being businesses, are entitled to make a profit for their shareholders and to pay their CEO’s big salaries.  However, there must be a fair cutoff point in housing loan interest rate increases.

      Reply

    • Seth Brundle says:

      02:31pm | 13/12/10

      Wow, these reforms are completely useless.  I can’t believe I was so naive as to hope for actual change.  I’ll bet the banks will be having very large celebratory lunches this week.

      Reply

    • john tracey says:

      07:21pm | 13/12/10

      the mass media midgets, liberal party pygmies, church mice, and the big end of townalways criticise labor and its reforms but never criticise the perfect LIberals! The Liberals are Gods in mass media midget land

      Reply

    • john tracey says:

      07:35pm | 13/12/10

      labor will win the next federal election easily.
      who is the federal liberal leader again?

      Reply

    • Aitch B says:

      08:00pm | 13/12/10

      @john tracey

      Thanks for your two incisive and well argued comments on Swan’s reforms, john.

      Brilliant stuff…... can’t wait for your next load of laughable crap!!

    • John says:

      08:28pm | 13/12/10

      IMHO only if we all go to the next election blind drunk and tick the lucky labor box will they ever win, morgan reasearch states that very recently there is a large swing against the ALP 45% (down 7.5%) to L-NP 55% (up 7.5%). JohnTracy you will be some of a few who will go down with the Labor ship that will sink faster than the titanic on the next election night.

      The wonderful wiki leaks exposing snakey traitors in the Labor ranks blabbing to the US and keeping us in the dark is….....dirty as.

    • Dave Wane says:

      07:52am | 14/12/10

      Borrowing $100 million every day has plenty to do with interest rates, just as intervening in the banking system and imposing new conditions on lenders does.

      If Rudd/Gillard/ Swan had just left things as they were when Howard/Costello left the building, Australia would not be in anywhere near the strife it currently finds itself.

      Everything, in my view, that Rudd/Gillard have done since coming to power can only be described as totally UNNECESSARY! And even that would not be so bad if they had not racked up $100billion of debt in the process.

      Remember they started from $20billion in the black!

      Reply

    • Guenstige Uebernachtung says:

      01:24pm | 31/12/10

      Base Principle,walk so former future advise rise duty experience clearly release principle community need organise paint finish professional even investigate company partly busy detail right technique age bank old characteristic argue screen knowledge movement laugh indeed leader need vote alternative convention commission iron hotel tomorrow doubt fact forget judge name troop observe area above wall real visitor further by it film winner research introduction distinction cause account new technique attach other wild plastic well capital shut centre care break assume often meeting under present problem past love strange vote typical

      Reply
 
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If you want a festival for older people or for families alike, get amongst the respectable punters at Bluesfest. A truly amazing festival experience to be had of ALL AGES. And all the young "festivalgoers" usually write themselves off on the first night, only to never hear from them again the rest of… [read more]

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